/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2012-01-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jan 25 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  40. # [17:21] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  41. # [17:21] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 47 minutes
  42. # [17:21] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.169)
  43. # [17:21] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/25-css-irc
  44. # [17:22] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  45. # [17:22] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
  46. # [17:22] <glazou> RRSAgent, you take your time when you're invited, eh
  47. # [17:22] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'you take your time when you're invited, eh', glazou. Try /msg RRSAgent help
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  51. # [18:04] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  52. # [18:04] <Zakim> +??P42
  53. # [18:04] <glazou> Zakim, ??P42 is me
  54. # [18:04] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  55. # [18:05] <glazou> I am 42 :-)
  56. # [18:05] <Ms2ger> Happy birthday :)
  57. # [18:06] <glazou> lol
  58. # [18:06] <glazou> not my birthday
  59. # [18:06] <glazou> Zakim says I'm P42
  60. # [18:06] <Zakim> +plinss
  61. # [18:06] * glazou is unfortunately older than that
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  63. # [18:07] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  64. # [18:07] <hober> Zakim, Apple has me
  65. # [18:07] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  66. # [18:07] <Zakim> +stearns
  67. # [18:07] <Zakim> +??P53
  68. # [18:07] <florianr> Zakim, I am ??P53
  69. # [18:07] <Zakim> +florianr; got it
  70. # [18:07] <Zakim> +??P54
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  73. # [18:08] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P54 is me
  74. # [18:08] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
  75. # [18:08] <JohnJansen> Zakim, microsoft has johnjansen
  76. # [18:08] <Zakim> sorry, JohnJansen, I do not recognize a party named 'microsoft'
  77. # [18:08] <Zakim> +??P1
  78. # [18:08] <Zakim> +antonp
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  80. # [18:08] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  81. # [18:09] <JohnJansen> Zakim, Microsoft has JOhnJansen
  82. # [18:09] <Zakim> +JOhnJansen; got it
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  84. # [18:09] <Zakim> +??P24
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  88. # [18:09] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
  89. # [18:09] <tantek> Good morning
  90. # [18:09] <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] is dbaron
  91. # [18:09] <Zakim> +dbaron; got it
  92. # [18:10] <Zakim> +ChrisL
  93. # [18:10] <Zakim> +fantasai
  94. # [18:11] <vhardy> ScribeNick: vhardy
  95. # [18:11] <Zakim> +??P22
  96. # [18:11] <glenn> +present irc only
  97. # [18:11] <dbaron> Zakim, P22 is dstorey
  98. # [18:11] <Zakim> sorry, dbaron, I do not recognize a party named 'P22'
  99. # [18:11] <ChrisL> zakim, ??P22 is dstorey
  100. # [18:11] <Zakim> +dstorey; got it
  101. # [18:12] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@98.232.9.174)
  102. # [18:12] <vhardy> glazou: we have a few extra items. The first one is about sending the agenda to the public list instead of the WG. I would like to give a few days to everyone to contribute.
  103. # [18:12] * Joins: SteveZ (chatzilla@192.150.10.200)
  104. # [18:12] <Zakim> +sylvaing
  105. # [18:12] <vhardy> .... if we reach consensus, we will start to send the agenda to the public list starting from next week. If you hit reply, the regrets would go to the public list, so be careful.
  106. # [18:13] <vhardy> ... I wanted to talk about the 2.1 issue. Anton posted a large number of 2.1 issues recently. I saw a few questions on the web about what we are doing about the errata.
  107. # [18:13] <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aaaa
  108. # [18:13] <arno> zakim, aaaa is me
  109. # [18:13] <vhardy> ... Peter and I discussed it and we think it would be good to work on it during the F2F to give a signal that the issues remain on the radar. Opinions about that?
  110. # [18:13] <Zakim> +arno; got it
  111. # [18:13] <vhardy> chris: I think it is good to show that 2.1 is not abandonned and is the basis for 3.
  112. # [18:13] <Zakim> + +1.408.536.aabb
  113. # [18:14] <vhardy> johnjansen: we resolved that Bert would make sure he would have all the issues on the wiki.
  114. # [18:14] <tantek> glazou, +1 on sending the agenda to the public.
  115. # [18:14] <vhardy> anton: the majority are from the mailing list since the wiki page was created. They are new issues. I am in the process of moving the issues
  116. # [18:15] <vhardy> ... there are about 30 of them.
  117. # [18:15] <glazou> #antonp { speech-rate: slower; }
  118. # [18:15] <vhardy> .... the ones from Jan-April 2011 need to be reviewed. It was a high volume feedback period and I want to make sure we cover all.
  119. # [18:15] <Zakim> +alexmog
  120. # [18:15] <Zakim> +??P28
  121. # [18:15] <vhardy> ... There are about 100 issues total that need to be taken care of.
  122. # [18:15] <glazou> tantek: noted
  123. # [18:16] * ChrisL anton speaks at my speed :)
  124. # [18:16] <kojiishi> zakim, ??p28 is probably me
  125. # [18:16] <Zakim> +kojiishi?; got it
  126. # [18:16] <tantek> for CSS 2.1 issues, would it be possible to request that people raising them add them directly to the wiki? e.g. we could indicate that issues added to the wiki will likely get attention first (which might provide sufficient incentive for issue contributors to do so)
  127. # [18:16] * plinss notes Anton clocked at .75 TimBLs
  128. # [18:16] <vhardy> ... we will have 100 issues to take care of. I am trying to get them on Bugzilla before the F2F. I may only have 75 total, but I'll try to do all.
  129. # [18:16] <tantek> LOL plinss
  130. # [18:16] <vhardy> ... should we have all of them in the errata. Some are easy, some hard.
  131. # [18:17] <vhardy> ... this is the number I was expecting.
  132. # [18:17] * sylvaing i'm pretty sure you need a license for that
  133. # [18:17] <vhardy> johnjansen: do you need help?
  134. # [18:17] <glazou> lol plinss
  135. # [18:17] <SteveZ> zakim, aabb is SteveZzakim, +1.408.536.aabb is me
  136. # [18:17] <Zakim> I don't understand you, SteveZ
  137. # [18:17] * Joins: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117)
  138. # [18:17] * glazou gets his bell
  139. # [18:17] <SteveZ> zakim, aabb is me
  140. # [18:17] <Zakim> +SteveZ; got it
  141. # [18:17] <Zakim> + +1.650.766.aacc
  142. # [18:17] <tantek> vhardy, depends on the conclusion of the issue. Some issues may not require a spec change but clearly still caused a question to be asked so could use an answer on a wiki page FAQ for example.
  143. # [18:17] <vhardy> antonp: I have done the difficult mining on the mailing list. The issue is to move the ones from the wiki. I could just copy to Bugzilla. I am trying to write bug descriptions that are understandable without having to read the whole thread.
  144. # [18:17] * glazou patpats vhardy
  145. # [18:18] <bradk> zakim, aacc is me
  146. # [18:18] <Zakim> +bradk; got it
  147. # [18:18] * dbaron thinks anton's speech rate is perfectly normal
  148. # [18:18] * plinss http://schepers.cc/timble
  149. # [18:18] * glazou reminds you the glazou is also a measure of trouble inside w3c ;-)
  150. # [18:18] <vhardy> johnjansen: we will have a large number of issues on Bugzilla and we will talk about it at the F2F, so we will demonstrate that we are focused and make progress.
  151. # [18:19] <vhardy> glazou: yes.
  152. # [18:19] * sylvaing anton said more in 30 seconds than the entire GOP primaries in 6 months.
  153. # [18:19] <vhardy> johnjansen: I will be regrets for the F2F
  154. # [18:19] <vhardy> antonp: will you be there?
  155. # [18:19] <vhardy> s/antonp/glazou
  156. # [18:19] <vhardy> antonp: yes
  157. # [18:19] <vhardy> florian: as long as we schedule enough time to address significant chunks, we do not need to address all of them at the F2F.
  158. # [18:20] <vhardy> glazou: I agree. I plan to write a blog entry on w3.org to say we are going to address the 2.1 issues during the F2f.
  159. # [18:20] <vhardy> glazou: anything else?
  160. # [18:20] <vhardy> (silence).
  161. # [18:20] <vhardy> Topic: New invited expert suggested by Bert.
  162. # [18:20] <vhardy> Bert is not here.
  163. # [18:21] <ChrisL> I don't know her, sorry
  164. # [18:21] <vhardy> glazou: Eva Kasal. I do not know her. I could not find information on the Web.
  165. # [18:21] <Zakim> -fantasai
  166. # [18:21] <vhardy> ... Peter and I talked about it. We have a compromise suggestion. We could invite her for the last day of the F2F and in the mean time, Bert has the opportunity to tell us about her.
  167. # [18:21] * Quits: nimbu (Adium@24.18.47.160) (Quit: Leaving.)
  168. # [18:21] <vhardy> chris: I think that is good.
  169. # [18:22] <vhardy> glazou: Unfortunately, I do not think Bert gave us an email, but I'll invite her for the last day of the F2F.
  170. # [18:22] <vhardy> Topic: CSS Transform parsing rules.
  171. # [18:23] <vhardy> vhardy: request to move to a future meeting when Dirk can be here.
  172. # [18:23] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/ideas/media-features
  173. # [18:23] <JohnJansen> Zakim, Microsoft has Fantasai
  174. # [18:23] <Zakim> +Fantasai; got it
  175. # [18:23] <JohnJansen> Zakim, insert evil laugh here.
  176. # [18:23] <Zakim> I don't understand 'insert evil laugh here', JohnJansen
  177. # [18:23] <tantek> glazou - I suggest also inviting Eva to the social dinner or such related events.
  178. # [18:23] <vhardy> glazou: I would like everybody to review this so that it can be discussed.
  179. # [18:24] <vhardy> florian: it is fairly simply, there is a new feature for scripts. If your browser supports javascript and has it turned on, then you get 1, otherwise you get 0. Which is what you need to turn on styles that need to apply when you do not have script support.
  180. # [18:25] <vhardy> ... no support for finegrained detection for situations where some scripts are enabled and some not. There is a suggestion in the proposal. It is kind of an edge case.
  181. # [18:25] <vhardy> rossen: what is the prime usecase for this?
  182. # [18:25] <vhardy> florian: because scripts may actually affect the style as they run.
  183. # [18:26] <vhardy> ... it is different when the script that were going to modify the layout do not run. Currently, there is a javascript library that addresses that, by removing classes when scripts run. A declarative solution would be better.
  184. # [18:26] <vhardy> sylvaing: so we would do what Modernizr does.
  185. # [18:26] <vhardy> antonp: except in a less fine grained manner.
  186. # [18:27] * sylvaing speaks at .01 TimBL
  187. # [18:27] <vhardy> florian: to my question. We might be able to turn what I proposed on its head and have a 'no-script' media feature instead of a 'script' media feature.
  188. # [18:28] <vhardy> florian: ... the problem with the script media feature is that if a browser supports javascript but does not support this media feature, then you will get the wrong style. If we do 'no-style', you would not be worse of than today.
  189. # [18:28] * glazou does not want to hear sylvaing speak french at 1 timble
  190. # [18:29] * sylvaing i don't think french can be spoken about .6 TimBL. It's just physically possible
  191. # [18:29] * sylvaing s/about/above
  192. # [18:29] <vhardy> ... if you have a media feature that is not supported in the media query, the entire query is equivalent to not all.
  193. # [18:30] <vhardy> ... as an author, if you write script:0 rather than just script, it does the fallback properly, so may be we do not need to revert.
  194. # [18:30] <vhardy> antonp: I wonder about the case where you turn off the script but the media feature is supported.
  195. # [18:30] <dbaron> dbaron: would script:0 lead to the same error handling as no-script ?
  196. # [18:30] <vhardy> florian: it works in that case.
  197. # [18:31] * ChrisL sylvaing you are not being minutes
  198. # [18:31] <vhardy> .... what happens when the new media feature is not supporter should be least disturbing to the page.
  199. # [18:31] <vhardy> s/supporter/supported
  200. # [18:32] <vhardy> ... if you use it explicitly with a value, then either is fine. Without an explicit value, no-script is better.
  201. # [18:32] <vhardy> ... if we want to add finer grain later, script() is a better option.
  202. # [18:32] <vhardy> ... harder with no-script.
  203. # [18:32] <vhardy> ... do we care to extend later on.
  204. # [18:32] <vhardy> glazou: we are not going to discuss the whole feature right now.
  205. # [18:33] <vhardy> florian: If people could think about it, that would help.
  206. # [18:33] <vhardy> glazou: will discuss at the F2F if we get enough feedback.
  207. # [18:33] <vhardy> Topic: GCPM Issues raised by Tab and Elika.
  208. # [18:33] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Jan/0895.html
  209. # [18:33] <Zakim> -??P1
  210. # [18:33] <vhardy> fantasai: nothing major, just things Hakon needs to take care of.
  211. # [18:33] <vhardy> (Hakon not on the call).
  212. # [18:34] <vhardy> fantasai: as long as Hakon is tracking it, we are fine.
  213. # [18:34] <vhardy> Topic: color tweaking.
  214. # [18:34] <ChrisL> q+
  215. # [18:34] * Zakim sees ChrisL on the speaker queue
  216. # [18:35] <vhardy> glazou: since the release of CSS 2, we got requests to do color tweaking like lighter(). We refused so far, sometimes for technical reasons, sometimes not. We need to come up with an articulated technical answer.
  217. # [18:35] <vhardy> chris: we originally said that filters could do that but Tab argued back and I agreed. We are lookign for a calc function.
  218. # [18:36] <vhardy> .... for lightness, additive is not going to be sufficient, because you lose your colors. Some sort of hue rotate seems useful functionality to me.
  219. # [18:36] <vhardy> glazou: what do other people thinkg?
  220. # [18:36] <vhardy> florian: I think it did not make sense to address before variables. I think a big blocker has been removed.
  221. # [18:36] <vhardy> glazou: I tend to agree with that.
  222. # [18:36] <vhardy> ... I think variables will be immensly useful here.
  223. # [18:37] <vhardy> glazou: how could we do that.
  224. # [18:37] <vhardy> fantasai: until we have a concrete proposal, we are not going to make progress on a telecon.
  225. # [18:37] <vhardy> glazou: but do we want to dedicate time on that.
  226. # [18:37] <Zakim> -danielweck
  227. # [18:37] <vhardy> chris: yes, and we already have filter functions/equations that could be reused here.
  228. # [18:37] <tantek> I'd like to see examples of real world web pages where authors are currently doing color lightening/darkening (by any method, CSS preprocessing, or in a javascript function etc.) before committing to adding it to CSS.
  229. # [18:37] * fantasai thinks this belongs to css4-color or css5-color
  230. # [18:37] <Zakim> +??P7
  231. # [18:37] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P7 is me
  232. # [18:37] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
  233. # [18:38] <ChrisL> ok
  234. # [18:38] <tantek> I'm not convinced it is something that is broadly necessary, feels more like a "wouldn't it be cool if" type of feature request.
  235. # [18:38] <vhardy> ACTION: Chris to create a concrete proposal to address the color tweaking requirement.
  236. # [18:38] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  237. # [18:38] * RRSAgent records action 1
  238. # [18:38] <trackbot> Created ACTION-417 - Create a concrete proposal to address the color tweaking requirement. [on Chris Lilley - due 2012-02-01].
  239. # [18:38] <sylvaing> I think this is something that makes sense once you have variables
  240. # [18:38] * ChrisL wonders why 5
  241. # [18:38] <tantek> if there's an advocate for this feature, please capture it as a theoretical request for css4-color on the wiki.
  242. # [18:38] <vhardy> glazou: a lot of people have been asking for that at the Paris web conference, they were all web authors.
  243. # [18:39] <sylvaing> I even think it's a variable scenario, period
  244. # [18:39] * fantasai because color-correction and #rrggbbaa seem a little more baked, so might wind up shipping before we have a concrete spec for color math :)
  245. # [18:39] <vhardy> glazou: anything else to discuss now?
  246. # [18:39] <tantek> (until someone shows at least *some* real world attempts at doing so, so far I have seen none in the emails)
  247. # [18:39] <vhardy> glazou: meal restrictions?
  248. # [18:39] * ChrisL restricted to good food
  249. # [18:39] * tantek is pescatarian (vegetarian + fish ok)
  250. # [18:39] <vhardy> .. please send me the dietary restrictions.
  251. # [18:40] <vhardy> ... before the F2F.
  252. # [18:40] <sylvaing> tantek, there is one on the list: designer defines a color scheme for an entire design then wants to adjust it in one place vs. overwriting each instance of a color value all over the place
  253. # [18:40] <vhardy> ... we will not be able to have food during the F2F in the meeting room.
  254. # [18:40] <tantek> should we put a "food prefs" column on the f2f wiki page table of attendees?
  255. # [18:40] <vhardy> ... there are restrictions about what can be done in the meeting rooms.
  256. # [18:40] <bradk> Here is an example of a color tweaker on the Web that includes tint and saturation variations of a base color: http://www.colorsontheweb.com/colorwizard.asp
  257. # [18:40] <tantek> sylvaing - I know the use-case, I just didn't see a page on the web doing so. (URL?)
  258. # [18:41] <vhardy> florian: I wanted to ask something about media queries.
  259. # [18:41] <vhardy> ... device pixel ratio is a media feature. It exists in various browsers (WK, Opera have it).
  260. # [18:41] <vhardy> ... that seems useful, we should add it to the next level of media queries.
  261. # [18:41] <sylvaing> tantek, why would you see it on a page? by the time the page is out the color scheme has been tweaked
  262. # [18:41] <tantek> bradk - I agree there are tools for doing so, now show me a URL with tweaked colors where the author has used that tool to do so
  263. # [18:42] <tantek> sylvaing - I'm asking for examples of pages from authors where they simply claim they've had to do such math (or used a tool) beforehand
  264. # [18:42] * Zakim tantek, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  265. # [18:42] <tantek> with actual color values we can look at
  266. # [18:42] * Joins: Rossen (Rossen@131.107.0.98)
  267. # [18:42] <vhardy> dbaron: I looked at the images draft, and I think there is a better way to do it. The image value draft introducts the dppx (dot per px) unit. If you have that unit, you do not need a new media query. All you do is use these ddpx units and query on resolution.
  268. # [18:42] <dbaron> dbaron: css3-images introduces a new unit, dppx, for dots per CSS pixel
  269. # [18:43] <vhardy> florian: the primary usecase is when you are on a device with a px that maps to many device pixels.
  270. # [18:43] <bradk> tantek - I think that would be hard to prove.
  271. # [18:43] <vhardy> ... the device pixel ratio was more explicity about that.
  272. # [18:43] <sylvaing> tantek - i don't follow. you want me to provide a page where the same color values are used multiple times?
  273. # [18:43] * hober vhardy: that was me
  274. # [18:43] <tantek> bradk - not asking for "proof", just for authors statement thereof
  275. # [18:43] <vhardy> edward: I prefer the media query since it is already implemented.
  276. # [18:44] <vhardy> fantasai: is it prefixed?
  277. # [18:44] <tantek> "this is a page I built by hand with tweaked colors, example: color1, color2 which is a lighter/version of color1" etc.
  278. # [18:44] <vhardy> florian: yes.
  279. # [18:44] <vhardy> fantasai: then, I do not see a reason to standardize it.
  280. # [18:44] <sylvaing> tantek - the use-case is called css variables. easy color tweaking by designers is a special case of that imo
  281. # [18:44] <vhardy> florian: if we standardize, we can drop prefixes.
  282. # [18:44] * tantek wants real world examples so we can look at the *actual* colors people have used and what they *claim* is the transform (lighter/darker, other) that they've done by hand or otherwise.
  283. # [18:44] <vhardy> fantasai: if we standardize, we can just use the resolution.
  284. # [18:44] <vhardy> florian: why not.
  285. # [18:45] <tantek> sylvaing, css variables is not a "use-case" it's a solution.
  286. # [18:45] * glazou notes that with the "real examples" requirement, we would not have standardized a lot of stuff that proved to be useful
  287. # [18:45] <sylvaing> tantek - fine; this is one css variables use-case
  288. # [18:45] <bradk> tantek, that just seems extremely unlikely that a designer would go into such detail about how he/she figured out the colors that are all shades or saturation variations of each other.
  289. # [18:45] <vhardy> florian: I am a bit confused. Do we need to change anything about how resolution is defined?
  290. # [18:46] <vhardy> dbaron: no, I do not think so. Just use dppx with the resoulution.
  291. # [18:46] <tantek> glazou - note that I'm not saying "don't do it", I'm simply saying I will classify this as a theoretical use-case until someone provides real-world URLs of authors manually (or through a script etc.) doing it.
  292. # [18:46] <vhardy> fantasai: just make sure there is an example, that should be good.
  293. # [18:46] <vhardy> florian: sure. For the next level of media queries, we just need an example with that unit and we are good?
  294. # [18:46] <tantek> and theoretical use-case doesn't mean don't do it, it means it gets lower priority than real-world use-cases / problems.
  295. # [18:46] <vhardy> dbaron: I think so.
  296. # [18:47] <vhardy> florian: I'll get feedback from Opera implementors. Seems like it would work.
  297. # [18:47] <sylvaing> tantek - you cannot find such a URL. all you can see is a page after it's been tweaked.
  298. # [18:47] <tantek> sylvaing - see above.
  299. # [18:47] <vhardy> florain: that is all I had on this topic.
  300. # [18:47] <sylvaing> tantek: ok, i don't get it.
  301. # [18:47] <vhardy> fantasia: Background and borders issues from previous call.
  302. # [18:47] <fantasai> CSS3 Background: Applying box-decoration-break to bidi-induced splits http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011May/0059.html (ISSUE-182)
  303. # [18:48] <tantek> sylvaing, from above: [17:36] tantek: bradk - not asking for "proof", just for authors statement thereof
  304. # [18:48] <tantek> [17:37] tantek: "this is a page I built by hand with tweaked colors, example: color1, color2 which is a lighter/version of color1" etc.
  305. # [18:48] <sylvaing> tantek, then give that answer to the authors on www-style who ask for it?
  306. # [18:48] <tantek> and you *could* find such a URL if there were a javascript library that did lightening.
  307. # [18:48] <vhardy> dbaron: do we define precisely where the splits happen?
  308. # [18:48] <glazou> tantek: will post a call for contributions on color tweaking on my blog, with my co-chair hat on
  309. # [18:48] <tantek> sylvaing, burden is on the feature requester.
  310. # [18:49] <sylvaing> tantek i think doing this with JS is specifically a non-goal for authors
  311. # [18:49] <tantek> otherwise, I may get to it eventually with adding it to the css4-color wiki page
  312. # [18:49] <glazou> right
  313. # [18:49] <vhardy> ... I worry that different implementations may split in different places and if borders show up, then we have issues.
  314. # [18:49] <vhardy> fantasai: wouldn't you have the same issues even without the borders.
  315. # [18:49] <sylvaing> tantek, anyway. we don't need to resolve this now and we're adding noise to IRC
  316. # [18:49] <tantek> sylvaing - not asking for pre-existing JS library as a requirement, that's just one way of demonstrating an existing real-world use-case
  317. # [18:49] <vhardy> dbaron: with borders, you only see where the begining and end are. YOu do not not see all the pieces.
  318. # [18:49] <tantek> saying it's a non-goal is not useful
  319. # [18:50] <vhardy> ... does box-decoration-break also affect that?
  320. # [18:50] <vhardy> fantasai: yes.
  321. # [18:50] <vhardy> dbaron: I am afraid of that. Implementations may put extra breaks in that do not cause problems but are not necessary needed.
  322. # [18:50] <vhardy> ... may be they don't.
  323. # [18:50] <vhardy> fantasai: how do we address your concerns.
  324. # [18:50] <vhardy> dbaron: we need to specify what those bidi splits are and see if they are interoperable.
  325. # [18:51] <vhardy> fantasai: I think that should be a separate issue. If we decide it does not apply, then it does not apply ever.
  326. # [18:51] <tantek> in general, if authors are using a JS library (or server-side library, like SASS) to achieve some presentational effect, then it may be a good candidate for consideration for a CSS feature. but absence of such library does not prove anything, so saying no such library would be expected to exist is also not useful.
  327. # [18:51] <vhardy> dbaron: if we go with does not apply, then fine. However, if they do apply, then we need to address the issue.
  328. # [18:51] <vhardy> fantasai: could we say that if two pieces of the same box are exactly adjacent, then they should be treated as one box.
  329. # [18:52] <vhardy> dbaron: this is scary. We would need to go rewrite our implementations for something for which there is no demonstrated use cases.
  330. # [18:52] <vhardy> fantasai: today, if there are two adjacent boxes, they are treated as a single piece.
  331. # [18:52] <vhardy> dbaron: would that still be true if the breaks applied?
  332. # [18:53] <vhardy> ... I think you make a bunch of assumptions. I do not know it is true that implementaitons merge boxes like you said.
  333. # [18:53] <vhardy> fantasai: I did not say they should. They need to render as if.
  334. # [18:53] <vhardy> dbaron: my position is that the breaks should not apply, but I am not sure.
  335. # [18:54] <vhardy> brad: what are the use cases?
  336. # [18:54] <vhardy> dbaron: I want to know the use cases and what implementations do now.
  337. # [18:55] <vhardy> fantasai: I do not think we have use cases, because I do not when you would visually highlighting that boxes are discontinous due to bidi reordering. You would typically not decorate it. It would look weird.
  338. # [18:56] <vhardy> .. the problem is not use cases. We have a feature that applies to boxes that split and it is not defined what happens in that case. We can say that it does not apply or that it applies.
  339. # [18:56] <vhardy> dbaron: I would like to know what implementations do and what the use cases are.
  340. # [18:56] <vhardy> fantasai: there is no use case to put decorations on boxes that are split because of bidi reordering.
  341. # [18:56] <Zakim> +GlennAdams
  342. # [18:57] <vhardy> dbaron: I think that what implementations do now is probably what people do not want. Right now they do apply box decoration breaks to bidi splits.
  343. # [18:57] <tantek> fantasai - test case that demonstrates the situation you are discussing / asking for clarification/definition on?
  344. # [18:57] <tantek> URL?
  345. # [18:57] <vhardy> .. if you put border on an inline with bidi reordering, you will see the effect, even if the boxes are contiguous. Should the spec. say that, or should the spec. have bidi reordered boxes with merges.
  346. # [18:58] <vhardy> fantasai: if we do not have a use case, and we do not seem to have one, it seems better to leave this undefined.
  347. # [18:58] <vhardy> s/fantasai/florian
  348. # [18:58] <vhardy> dbaron: there are questions about whether people put borders on inlines in the first place.
  349. # [18:58] <vhardy> plinss: people do that, I have seen it.
  350. # [18:58] <dbaron> dbaron: ... and thus whether to bother with box-decoration-break at all
  351. # [18:59] <vhardy> brad: most people would not want a border between two words becase a word goes in the opposite direction. We should say that in the spec. and explains it does not apply.
  352. # [18:59] <vhardy> fantasai: I am happy with florian's suggestion.
  353. # [18:59] <vhardy> plinss: I think we need to specify it.
  354. # [18:59] <vhardy> florian: we could start with undefined and then nail it down later.
  355. # [18:59] <vhardy> ... when we have use cases.
  356. # [19:00] <glenn> adobe in-design arabic version supports this type of feature, but proprietary format
  357. # [19:00] <vhardy> glazou: any more comments?
  358. # [19:00] <vhardy> (silence)
  359. # [19:00] <fantasai> tantek: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1309
  360. # [19:00] <vhardy> szilles: what is the conclusion?
  361. # [19:01] <vhardy> ... I thought there was support for what florian was proposing.
  362. # [19:01] <vhardy> brad: I think it should be defined. I do not think we should default to whatever uas do.
  363. # [19:01] <vhardy> fantasai: whatever you do, it looks weird.
  364. # [19:01] <vhardy> szilles: at a minimum, there should be a comment saying that we are looking for use cases.
  365. # [19:02] <dbaron> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cspan%20style%3D%22border%3A%201px%20solid%20black%3B-moz-background-inline-policy%3A%20each-box%3B%20background-image%3A%20url(https%3A%2F%2Ftwimg0-a.akamaihd.net%2Fprofile_images%2F1605345343%2Fdavid-2011-09-13-by-nitot-square_normal.jpg)%22%3E%26%23x5d0%3B%26%23x5d1%3B12%3C%2Fspan%3E
  366. # [19:02] <vhardy> ... brad, I think we should leave it undefined and say so, is that it will drive people to come up with use cases if there are any.
  367. # [19:03] <vhardy> dbaron: the url I pasted, shows that there are two boxes in this case. If we started to apply it, we would get bad results. May be we need to resolve this problem.
  368. # [19:03] <vhardy> .... I think that getting it right for the bidi cases is going to be hard implementation-wise.
  369. # [19:04] <vhardy> florian: we do not want to rewrite all our code. I say we should not define it until we have use cases. Until then, say it is undefined.
  370. # [19:04] <vhardy> brad: then we end up with incompatibility.
  371. # [19:04] <vhardy> fantasai: yes, but it is a weird edge case.
  372. # [19:04] <SteveZ> +1 for Florian's statement
  373. # [19:04] <vhardy> florian: may be it is better to let implementations do different things, and later consolidate on the best behavior.
  374. # [19:05] <vhardy> dbaron: I think the use cases are the same as borders on inlines.
  375. # [19:05] <vhardy> ... some people probably want it to look like this.
  376. # [19:05] <vhardy> ... then people who write in arabic for example, may have these use cases.
  377. # [19:05] <vhardy> ... if you want borders around the boxes instead of open borders
  378. # [19:06] <vhardy> .... The right behavior is not obvious and hard to implement.
  379. # [19:06] <dbaron> s/not obvious/obvious/
  380. # [19:06] <vhardy> ... we want the borders to close where the borders are physically separated.
  381. # [19:06] <vhardy> fantasai: we could give two options:
  382. # [19:06] * glazou we reach the top of the hour, guys
  383. # [19:06] <vhardy> ... close the borders when they are separated
  384. # [19:06] * Quits: antonp (50a94e63@207.192.75.252) (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  385. # [19:06] <vhardy> ... treat bidi split as always slicing.
  386. # [19:07] * hober has another meeting...
  387. # [19:07] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  388. # [19:07] <vhardy> ... an implmentation would be conformant if it does slicing or if it does the 'correct' behavior. If it cannot, it can treat it as slice.
  389. # [19:07] <Zakim> -danielweck
  390. # [19:07] <vhardy> ... then we can see how uas implement it.
  391. # [19:07] <Zakim> -stearns
  392. # [19:08] <danielweck> Just been kicked-out, can't get back in :(
  393. # [19:08] <vhardy> glazou: we are not going to resolve this issue today.
  394. # [19:08] <vhardy> florian: can we agree on the next step?
  395. # [19:08] <glazou> danielweck: zakim is so painful sometimes, sorry for that
  396. # [19:08] <vhardy> florian: given dbaron's feedback, I do not think we should define the behavior until we are clear on the desired result.
  397. # [19:09] <Zakim> -ChrisL
  398. # [19:09] <dbaron> I think we are clear on the desired result but it requires defining a whole bunch of new things we don't have already, and it's not clear to me whether it's worth doing that.
  399. # [19:10] <vhardy> glazou: we should get back to this during the F2F.
  400. # [19:10] <Zakim> -??P24
  401. # [19:10] <dbaron> I think this is a pretty classic example of the problem I described in http://dbaron.org/log/20100531-specs
  402. # [19:10] <Zakim> -bradk
  403. # [19:10] <Zakim> -antonp
  404. # [19:11] <Zakim> -arno
  405. # [19:11] <Zakim> -Oliver_Goldman
  406. # [19:11] <Zakim> -sylvaing
  407. # [19:11] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  408. # [19:11] <Zakim> -glazou
  409. # [19:11] <Zakim> -dbaron
  410. # [19:11] <Zakim> -dstorey
  411. # [19:11] <Zakim> -plinss
  412. # [19:11] <Zakim> -kojiishi?
  413. # [19:11] <Zakim> -florianr
  414. # [19:11] * Quits: bradk (bradk@99.7.175.117) (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/ )
  415. # [19:11] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
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  417. # [19:11] <Zakim> -GlennAdams
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  421. # [19:16] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, alexmog, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
  422. # [19:16] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  423. # [19:16] <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, plinss, hober, stearns, florianr, danielweck, antonp, JOhnJansen, Oliver_Goldman, dbaron, ChrisL, fantasai, dstorey, sylvaing, +1.415.832.aaaa, arno,
  424. # [19:16] <Zakim> ... +1.408.536.aabb, alexmog, kojiishi?, SteveZ, +1.650.766.aacc, bradk, GlennAdams
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The end :)