/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2012-02-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Feb 15 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  43. # [13:13] <galadude> I can't seem to get z-index to work on this page: http://galanakis.dk/danvikar/, I'd like the menu underline to be on top of the bar's underline. Any ideas?
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  53. # [17:18] <leaverou> fantasai: You got an email from me, right? Sorry, it was for www-style too, but for some reason I can't post there today.
  54. # [17:23] * Joins: kojiishi (kojiishi@222.158.227.129)
  55. # [17:36] * Joins: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19)
  56. # [17:36] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  57. # [17:36] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  58. # [17:36] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 31 minutes
  59. # [17:36] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.169)
  60. # [17:36] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/15-css-irc
  61. # [17:36] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  62. # [17:36] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
  63. # [18:01] * Quits: myakura (myakura@110.233.178.43) (Client exited)
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  65. # [18:04] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  66. # [18:04] <Zakim> +??P41
  67. # [18:04] <glazou> Zakim, ??P41 is me
  68. # [18:04] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  69. # [18:04] <shepazu> Zakim, code?
  70. # [18:04] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), shepazu
  71. # [18:05] <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
  72. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +1.206.550.aaaa
  73. # [18:07] * Joins: danielweck (danielweck@109.224.135.53)
  74. # [18:07] <stearns> zakim, aaaa is me
  75. # [18:07] <Zakim> +Bert
  76. # [18:07] * Joins: antonp (50a94e63@78.129.202.38)
  77. # [18:07] * Joins: arronei (arronei@198.228.222.75)
  78. # [18:07] <Zakim> +??P53
  79. # [18:07] <florianr> Zakim, I am ??P53
  80. # [18:07] <Zakim> +stearns; got it
  81. # [18:08] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  82. # [18:08] * Joins: smfr (smfr@17.212.152.232)
  83. # [18:08] <hober> Zakim, Apple has me
  84. # [18:08] <Zakim> +glenn
  85. # [18:08] <glazou> Zakim, ??53 is florianr
  86. # [18:08] * Joins: krit (Adium@24.6.231.253)
  87. # [18:09] <Zakim> +florianr; got it
  88. # [18:09] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  89. # [18:09] <glazou> Zakim, who is here?
  90. # [18:09] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (tabatkins@216.239.45.4)
  91. # [18:09] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  92. # [18:09] <krit> Zakim, who's here?
  93. # [18:09] <Bert> zakim, bert also has fantasai
  94. # [18:09] <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
  95. # [18:09] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  96. # [18:09] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  97. # [18:09] <glazou> Zakim, WAKE UP
  98. # [18:10] <danielweck> Zakim, where are you?
  99. # [18:10] <Zakim> +??P18
  100. # [18:10] <TabAtkins_> I'll be in momentarily.
  101. # [18:10] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named '??53'
  102. # [18:10] <Zakim> +plinss
  103. # [18:10] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P18 is me
  104. # [18:10] * Joins: ChrisL (ChrisL@128.30.52.169)
  105. # [18:10] <smfr> Zakim, Apple has me
  106. # [18:10] <krit> +Present krit
  107. # [18:10] * Joins: dstorey (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  108. # [18:11] <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, stearns, Bert, florianr, [Apple], glenn, [Microsoft], [IPcaller], [Microsoft.a], ??P18, plinss
  109. # [18:11] <Zakim> [Apple] has hober
  110. # [18:11] <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, stearns, Bert, florianr, [Apple], glenn, [Microsoft], [IPcaller], [Microsoft.a], ??P18, plinss
  111. # [18:11] * plinss http://www.w3.org/2006/tools/wiki/Zakim_Tips#how_do_I_tell_Zakim_which_caller_is_me.3F
  112. # [18:11] <Zakim> [Apple] has hober
  113. # [18:11] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
  114. # [18:11] <krit> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
  115. # [18:11] <Zakim> +[Apple.a]
  116. # [18:11] <Zakim> +??P75
  117. # [18:11] <smfr> Zakim, [Apple.a] is me
  118. # [18:11] <Zakim> I don't understand 'WAKE UP', glazou
  119. # [18:11] <danielweck> Zakim, ??P18 is me
  120. # [18:12] <danielweck> (trying again)
  121. # [18:12] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, danielweck.
  122. # [18:12] <Zakim> + +93550aabb
  123. # [18:12] <antonp> Zakim, aabb is me
  124. # [18:12] <Zakim> +danielweck; got it
  125. # [18:12] <Zakim> +smfr; got it
  126. # [18:12] * sylvaing_away is now known as sylvaing
  127. # [18:12] <fantasai> Scribe: fantasai
  128. # [18:13] <Zakim> On IRC I see dstorey, ChrisL, TabAtkins_, krit, smfr, arronei, antonp, danielweck, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, kojiishi, glenn, nimbu, SimonSapin, florianr, tantek_, drublic, tantek,
  129. # [18:13] * nimbu is unable to connect
  130. # [18:13] <Zakim> ... karl, arronei_, leaverou, jdaggett, Bert, Hixie, shepazu, stearns, ed, alexmog, shans_away, vhardy, sylvaing_away, plinss, krijnh, macpherson, trackbot, hober, gsnedders,
  131. # [18:13] <fantasai> glazou: Any extra items for today?
  132. # [18:13] <Zakim> ... paul___irish, CSSWG_LogBot, fantasai
  133. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> Bleh, took enough tries.
  134. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> ScribeNick: TabAtkins_
  135. # [18:13] <fantasai> Florian: Not sure howcome is here today; if not, shouldn't talk about GCPM
  136. # [18:13] <Zakim> +krit; got it
  137. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> glazou: I noted that you posted clarifications about the selectors4 requests.
  138. # [18:13] <Zakim> + +1.415.871.aacc
  139. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Let's move to the first item on our agenda today.
  140. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> glazou: It's about -webkit- prefix.
  141. # [18:13] <Zakim> +smfr; got it
  142. # [18:13] <TabAtkins_> glazou: I had a lot of chats between the first day and yesterday.
  143. # [18:13] <Zakim> I already had ??P18 as danielweck, danielweck
  144. # [18:14] <tantek> Zakim, aacc is tantek
  145. # [18:14] * Joins: howcome (howcome@88.89.78.85)
  146. # [18:14] <TabAtkins_> glazou: That ended with the proposal I made to Brendan.
  147. # [18:14] <TabAtkins_> glazou: A compromise about what we could do in this WG.
  148. # [18:14] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Brendan Eich.
  149. # [18:14] <TabAtkins_> glazou: This was discussed between Brendana nd Jeff Jaffe on Monday.
  150. # [18:14] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
  151. # [18:14] * nimbu is in
  152. # [18:14] <TabAtkins_> glazou: I don't know the details, but apparently the compromise goes in the right direction.
  153. # [18:14] <TabAtkins_> glazou: So we need to discuss and find a plan here.
  154. # [18:14] <Zakim> + +1.650.253.aadd
  155. # [18:14] <TabAtkins_> glazou: If it's so urgent that the three browser vendors raised in Monday, we need to move forward quickly.
  156. # [18:15] <smfr> linky please
  157. # [18:15] <Zakim> + +1.206.552.aaee
  158. # [18:15] <Zakim> +tantek; got it
  159. # [18:15] * Joins: SteveZ (chatzilla@157.22.251.133)
  160. # [18:15] <florianr> http://www.w3.org/mid/4F391911.307@disruptive-innovations.com
  161. # [18:15] <tantek> to be clear - I was at that meeting with Jeff Jaffe and Brendan on Monday
  162. # [18:15] * ChrisL anyone else having trouble getting zakim to pick up?
  163. # [18:15] * howcome can
  164. # [18:15] <danielweck> Zakim has kicked me out
  165. # [18:15] * Quits: SteveZ (chatzilla@157.22.251.133) (Connection reset by peer)
  166. # [18:15] <danielweck> unable to join-in
  167. # [18:16] * howcome can't join
  168. # [18:16] * plinss ChrisL, yes
  169. # [18:16] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@159.63.23.38)
  170. # [18:16] <TabAtkins_> glazou: That's not a decision, it's a proposal to discuss.
  171. # [18:16] <TabAtkins_> glazou: It merely seemed reasonable at the time I wrote it.
  172. # [18:16] * plinss Zakim is being extremely slow today
  173. # [18:16] <dbaron> I'm getting a busy signal dialing Zakim
  174. # [18:16] <TabAtkins_> glazou: I'd like to discuss this, and if you have counterproposals, discuss those.
  175. # [18:16] * Joins: SteveZ (chatzilla@157.22.251.133)
  176. # [18:16] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: What's the connection between this and what Brendan and Jeff discussed?
  177. # [18:16] <TabAtkins_> glazou: No idea.
  178. # [18:16] <danielweck> Zakim says: "enable to take your call, try again later"
  179. # [18:16] * Joins: JohnJansen (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  180. # [18:16] <TabAtkins_> tantek: I was at the meeting. We discussed daniel's proposal.
  181. # [18:16] <TabAtkins_> tantek: I don't think anything new came out of that; it was just Jeff gaining a broder understanding.
  182. # [18:17] * Quits: SteveZ (chatzilla@157.22.251.133) (Connection reset by peer)
  183. # [18:17] <TabAtkins_> tantek: The key point is the one I made in email - we don't have a specific list yet, and I don't think anyone has yet.
  184. # [18:17] * Joins: SteveZ (chatzilla@157.22.251.133)
  185. # [18:17] <TabAtkins_> florianr: I don't think anyone has a final list, but we should be able to give a top-5 list or something.
  186. # [18:17] <TabAtkins_> tantek: I can put it in a more coarse-grained fashion. We're still analyzing our data, and we don't have specific properties to propose yet.
  187. # [18:18] * Joins: Rossen (Rossen@131.107.0.117)
  188. # [18:18] <TabAtkins_> tantek: It would be very helpful for us and the group if certain specs were made to advance more quickly.
  189. # [18:18] <TabAtkins_> tantek: Because the syntax is stable.
  190. # [18:18] * dbaron RRSAgent, pointer?
  191. # [18:18] * RRSAgent See http://www.w3.org/2012/02/15-css-irc#T17-11-18
  192. # [18:18] <TabAtkins_> florianr: I have a questiona bout your studies.
  193. # [18:18] * ChrisL there is a known issue with zakim, i reported it but systems team already working on it
  194. # [18:18] <TabAtkins_> florianr: It seems that with even a little bit of study, it seems easy to come up with a simple list of stuff applicable everywhere.
  195. # [18:18] <TabAtkins_> florianr: So what info are you looking for?
  196. # [18:19] <TabAtkins_> tantek: We also find that when -webkit-border-radius is used, there's also the other prefixes or unprefixed.
  197. # [18:19] <TabAtkins_> tantek: So the result is, how much difference would it amek to implement -webkit-border-radius?
  198. # [18:19] <TabAtkins_> tantek: if the answer is "not that much difference", it's not worth doing.
  199. # [18:19] <TabAtkins_> tantek: So it's the question of what it's used with.
  200. # [18:19] <TabAtkins_> tantek: If we can avoid supproting -webkit-, great.
  201. # [18:20] <TabAtkins_> tantek: When we do find a property that seems to be -webkit- prefixed only, the question is:
  202. # [18:20] <TabAtkins_> tantek: Is it affecting the user, and hwo much?
  203. # [18:20] <TabAtkins_> tantek: And that's a hard question to answer without manually looking at the site.
  204. # [18:20] <TabAtkins_> tantek: If you can't tell the difference, what's the point of implementing it?
  205. # [18:20] <TabAtkins_> tantek: So we're trying to be conservative here.
  206. # [18:21] <TabAtkins_> tantek: The coarse data alone, though, provides us enough clues to reccommend to the WG which specs to advance faster.
  207. # [18:21] <TabAtkins_> florianr: I've done some studies here. I don't think there as details as yours, but I've looked for whether -webkit- is used with or without something else that opera supports.
  208. # [18:21] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Can you share this data?
  209. # [18:21] <TabAtkins_> florianr: I've sent it to the private list.
  210. # [18:21] <florianr> http://www.w3.org/mid/op.v9n5gsan4p7avi@localhost.localdomain
  211. # [18:22] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Are you making a big difference between border-radius, whichi is specified and implemented everywhere, and between properties that are more experiemental, have little or no spec, and not implemented anywhere else.
  212. # [18:23] <TabAtkins_> glazou: For the former, the decision to impelment -webkit- is only in your hands. There's nothing we can do on the standards side.
  213. # [18:23] <TabAtkins_> glazou: For the latter, we need more specs, we need faster movement.
  214. # [18:23] <TabAtkins_> florianr: There's a third case,w hich is important - things that are on progress, but not prefixed yet.
  215. # [18:23] <Zakim> -danielweck
  216. # [18:23] <TabAtkins_> glazou: For the second case, I think we have a problem. Most of them come from Apple.
  217. # [18:23] <TabAtkins_> glazou: The current specs available online are really light, to say the least.
  218. # [18:24] <TabAtkins_> florianr: Like text-size-adjust?
  219. # [18:24] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Not only that, but yes.
  220. # [18:24] <dbaron> did florianr say "not unprefixed yet" rather than "not prefixed yet"?
  221. # [18:24] <TabAtkins_> glazou: I think the definition is underspecified, to say the least.
  222. # [18:24] <TabAtkins_> florianr: From my data, text-size-adjust comes first among things without a spec, -webkit-appearance is next.
  223. # [18:24] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: When you crawl, what UA string are you using?
  224. # [18:24] <TabAtkins_> florianr: wget's UA string.
  225. # [18:24] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: On the mobile web, you get very different content based on the UA string.
  226. # [18:25] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: If you pretend to be webkit, the results are completely different.
  227. # [18:25] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: So we're trying to figure out which method to use to report the numbers.
  228. # [18:25] <smfr> [time check: 2 mins left on this issue; what are we trying to achieve?]
  229. # [18:25] <TabAtkins_> florianr: I've seen people doing mroe sophisticated analysis, and the numbers were higher if they spoofed as webkit, but the ordering was pretty similar to my method.
  230. # [18:26] <TabAtkins_> glazou: So, what are we going to do *now*?
  231. # [18:26] <TabAtkins_> glazou: We need specs for the underspecified properties, and we need analysis for the ones that need to go faster.
  232. # [18:26] <TabAtkins_> tantek: I think there are 3 specs that the WG needs to publish as LC asap.
  233. # [18:26] <TabAtkins_> tantek: And ocnsider dropping prefixes early since the syntax is stable.
  234. # [18:26] <TabAtkins_> tantek: Transforms, Transitions, and Animations.
  235. # [18:26] <TabAtkins_> glazou: 2d or 3d?
  236. # [18:26] <TabAtkins_> tantek: I think 2d.
  237. # [18:27] <Zakim> -smfr
  238. # [18:27] <TabAtkins_> tantek: Based on the wG discussion to split 2d and 3d.
  239. # [18:27] <smfr> oops
  240. # [18:27] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: I think we agreed to try and advance them together, because it would be more work to pull them apart.
  241. # [18:27] * ChrisL still unable to join, all zakim lines occupied
  242. # [18:27] <dbaron> smfr, you're not going to be able to dial in again, either
  243. # [18:27] <smfr> just did
  244. # [18:27] <Zakim> +[Apple.a]
  245. # [18:27] * shepazu suggests an ad hoc conference
  246. # [18:27] * shepazu nm
  247. # [18:27] <TabAtkins_> florianr: going back to the things without a spec, I thinkw e're counting on webkit people to submit a spec for -webkit-text-size-adjust.
  248. # [18:28] <TabAtkins_> florianr: And appearance was dropped from CSS3 UI with the intent to be in CSS4 UI.
  249. # [18:28] <dbaron> That said, Zakim is actually *ringing* now, which is better than before.
  250. # [18:28] <TabAtkins_> florianr: Analysis suggests it's being used.
  251. # [18:28] <dbaron> I don't think appearance was dropped with intent to be in css4-ui.
  252. # [18:28] <TabAtkins_> tantek: I agree that it would be good to see proposals from Webkit about text-size-adjust, at least a simple draft.
  253. # [18:28] * ChrisL @shepazu its the number of incoming lines, not the size of the booking, that is the issue so ad hoc would not help
  254. # [18:28] <dbaron> I think it was dropped because some people objected to the principle.
  255. # [18:29] <TabAtkins_> tantek: On appearance, based on my prop there's very little interop. Most seem to be using it for appearance:none. But I don't think there was much actual impact of using it.
  256. # [18:29] <TabAtkins_> tantek: So I thinkt he highest impact is text-size-adjust and the three specs I mentioned.
  257. # [18:29] <TabAtkins_> glazou: So let's focus on those three specs and text-size-adjust.
  258. # [18:29] <TabAtkins_> glazou: It seems that the syntax is not going to change.
  259. # [18:29] <TabAtkins_> glazou: So can we unprefix and move them forward fast?
  260. # [18:30] <TabAtkins_> smfr: At the f2f we decided *not* to split the transforms specs.
  261. # [18:30] <dbaron> I think we should just try to move all of transforms forward quickly.
  262. # [18:30] <TabAtkins_> smfr: And we have some demands for lTransforms syntax changes.
  263. # [18:30] <fantasai> Tab: Let's move transforms forward. We can adjust syntax later.
  264. # [18:30] <dbaron> We should reject the demands for syntax changes
  265. # [18:31] <TabAtkins_> glazou: So do we agree to move the Transforms spec without the syntax change?
  266. # [18:31] <TabAtkins_> smfr: Are yout alking about combiend 2d/3d/svg transforms spec?
  267. # [18:31] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Yes.
  268. # [18:32] <TabAtkins_> smfr: Are we going to wait for feedback from SVg, or define some conformance classes?
  269. # [18:32] <TabAtkins_> tantek: Has anyone shipped support for the new features?
  270. # [18:32] <TabAtkins_> smfr: No.
  271. # [18:33] <TabAtkins_> Dirk: The only difference is the three argument rotate(), so I don't think it makes sense to split from SVG right now.
  272. # [18:33] <glenn> presumably transforms will go to LCWD before CR, yes?
  273. # [18:33] <dbaron> I think the three argument rotate() should be reverted.
  274. # [18:33] <ChrisL> In the context of a sepc jointly edited by SVG and CSS folks, how are you "waiting for feedback" from SVG
  275. # [18:33] <fantasai> glenn, yes, that's required
  276. # [18:33] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
  277. # [18:33] <TabAtkins_> tantek: I'm not opposed to new things in the future, but I think it should be at minimum split into a separate WD and published later.
  278. # [18:33] <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] is dbaron
  279. # [18:33] <Zakim> +??P7
  280. # [18:33] <Zakim> +dbaron; got it
  281. # [18:33] <TabAtkins_> tantek: Or marked it as at-risk and keep moving, knowing it might not exit CR.
  282. # [18:34] <kojiishi> zakim, ??p7 is me
  283. # [18:34] <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
  284. # [18:34] * fantasai prefers the at-risk option
  285. # [18:34] <TabAtkins_> smfr: The other issue is that we can't drop prefixes on 2d unless we start prefixing the 3d functions.
  286. # [18:34] <TabAtkins_> smfr: Which will be confusing for authors.
  287. # [18:34] <TabAtkins_> tantek: Why is it difficult if we have interop on 2d?
  288. # [18:34] <ChrisL> all the options are confusing to authors in some way
  289. # [18:34] <TabAtkins_> florianr: The prefixes are on the property, not the value.
  290. # [18:34] <ChrisL> prefixing 3d seems the least confusing option
  291. # [18:35] <TabAtkins_> glazou: I think the 3d functions are already too spread on the web to worry about it.
  292. # [18:35] <fantasai> florianr: so to unprefix 2d only, you'd have to prefix the 3d functions
  293. # [18:35] <fantasai> florianr: which would be confusing for authors
  294. # [18:35] <Zakim> +ChrisL
  295. # [18:35] * ChrisL finally! after 28 minutes
  296. # [18:36] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: I would like a testsuite before we claim interop.
  297. # [18:36] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: Do ytou expect any lack of interop to affect the syntax?
  298. # [18:36] <TabAtkins_> [unminuted talking over each other]
  299. # [18:36] <ChrisL> +1 to tantek's proposal
  300. # [18:37] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: It's just about splitting 2d/3d.
  301. # [18:37] <smfr> is there anything new here that we didn't discuss at the F2F?
  302. # [18:37] <ChrisL> tantek proposes moving to lcwd asap and dropping prefixes at lcwd for this spec
  303. # [18:37] <TabAtkins_> tantek: I'm not talking about exitting CR right now, just unprefixing.
  304. # [18:37] <Bert> q+ fantasai
  305. # [18:37] * Zakim sees fantasai on the speaker queue
  306. # [18:38] <Zakim> + +47.21.65.aaff
  307. # [18:38] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: Are we making an exception to the unprefixing rule?
  308. # [18:38] <TabAtkins_> tantek: Yes.
  309. # [18:38] * howcome is in, too
  310. # [18:38] * dbaron Zakim, aaff is howcome
  311. # [18:38] * Zakim +howcome; got it
  312. # [18:38] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Last week we discussed de facto vs de jure standards. These are de facto standards already.
  313. # [18:39] * smfr wants to hear fantasai's point
  314. # [18:39] <TabAtkins_> [bankrupcty]
  315. # [18:40] <dbaron> sylvain: We have rules for dropping prefixes and I'm asking why we're making an exception?
  316. # [18:40] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: Back to the discussion. Transform, Transitions, Animations. Drop prefixes?
  317. # [18:40] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: Can we poll on this? Discussion seems to be going nowhere.
  318. # [18:40] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  319. # [18:40] <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, stearns, Bert, florianr, [Apple], glenn, [Microsoft], krit, [Microsoft.a], plinss, ??P75, antonp, tantek, +1.650.253.aadd, +1.206.552.aaee, [Apple.a],
  320. # [18:40] <Zakim> ... dbaron, kojiishi, ChrisL, howcome
  321. # [18:40] <Zakim> [Apple] has smfr
  322. # [18:40] <Zakim> Bert has Bert, fantasai
  323. # [18:41] <TabAtkins_> Poll options:
  324. # [18:41] <nimbu> Zakim, aaee is me
  325. # [18:41] <Zakim> +nimbu; got it
  326. # [18:41] <hober> Zakim, Apple.a has me
  327. # [18:41] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  328. # [18:41] <TabAtkins_> 1) Move Transforms/Transitions/Animations to LC and allow unprefixing.
  329. # [18:41] <Rossen> Zakim, Microsoft.a is me
  330. # [18:41] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
  331. # [18:41] <TabAtkins_> 2) No exception, just try to move the specs fast.
  332. # [18:42] <fantasai> If we're making an exception to the process, we should document that in the Snapshot *as an exception*
  333. # [18:42] <TabAtkins_> glazou: 1
  334. # [18:42] <ChrisL> chris option 1
  335. # [18:42] <glenn> glenn: 2
  336. # [18:42] <TabAtkins_> astearns: 1
  337. # [18:42] <fantasai> bert: 2
  338. # [18:42] <TabAtkins_> florianr: 1
  339. # [18:43] <TabAtkins_> dirk: Does option 1 mean no more syntax changes?
  340. # [18:43] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: Yes.
  341. # [18:43] <TabAtkins_> smfr: 2
  342. # [18:43] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: 2
  343. # [18:43] <nimbu> nimbu: 1
  344. # [18:44] <TabAtkins_> plinss: Torn, but 2.
  345. # [18:44] <TabAtkins_> antonp: 2
  346. # [18:44] <TabAtkins_> tantek: 1
  347. # [18:44] <Rossen> Rossen: 2
  348. # [18:44] <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_: 1
  349. # [18:44] <howcome> howcome: 1
  350. # [18:44] <Zakim> -Rossen
  351. # [18:44] <dbaron> dbaron: 1
  352. # [18:44] <hober> hober: 2
  353. # [18:44] <sylvaing> arronei: 2
  354. # [18:44] <krit> krit: 2
  355. # [18:44] * Joins: jet (jet@67.169.43.128)
  356. # [18:44] * Quits: SteveZ (chatzilla@157.22.251.133) (Connection reset by peer)
  357. # [18:44] <TabAtkins_> davidStorey: 1
  358. # [18:44] * fantasai votes for 3
  359. # [18:44] <fantasai> :)
  360. # [18:45] <sylvaing> -webkit-3?
  361. # [18:45] * TabAtkins_ fantasai is barred from voting forever.
  362. # [18:45] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  363. # [18:45] <Rossen> Zakim, Microsoft.a is me
  364. # [18:45] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
  365. # [18:45] * TabAtkins_ fantasai, real vote?
  366. # [18:46] <ChrisL> q+
  367. # [18:46] * Zakim sees fantasai, ChrisL on the speaker queue
  368. # [18:46] <TabAtkins_> fantasai: My preference woudl be to list the transforms functions we're trying to unprefix in the Exceptions clause, and work on the spec knowing that we are syntax-constrained.
  369. # [18:46] <dbaron> s/Exceptions clause/exceptions clause in the snapshot/
  370. # [18:46] <ChrisL> fantasia is voting for a modified 1 which may allow syntax changes f there are issues
  371. # [18:46] <ChrisL> ... to avoid multiple last calls
  372. # [18:46] * Joins: SteveZ (chatzilla@157.22.251.133)
  373. # [18:47] <ChrisL> I agree with fantasai
  374. # [18:47] <dbaron> Yes, I'm happier with fantasai's modified (1) than with the original (1).
  375. # [18:47] <Bert> (I think 3 is like 1, except that we explicitly reserve (and warn!) the right to change the syntax again.)
  376. # [18:47] * hober thought 3 sounded a lot like 2
  377. # [18:47] <ChrisL> 3) move to LCWD, try to freeze syntax, unprefix, but still correct issues if they arise in LCWD
  378. # [18:48] * Bert stays with option 2
  379. # [18:48] <fantasai> fantasai: I don't agree with ignoring the issues and just pushing to CR. I also don't think any syntax change should be pushed to L4, because as sylvain says they need to be fixed now if at all.
  380. # [18:48] * dbaron but fantasai's proposal and (1) have in common that we're making an exception regarding the unprefixing rule
  381. # [18:48] <tantek> fantasai - please don't strawman - no one is just pushing to CR
  382. # [18:48] * ChrisL yes they do
  383. # [18:49] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: I don't think the process is blocking us here.
  384. # [18:49] <fantasai> fantasai: If people want to cycle through mutliple LCs because they feel that somehow makes it better, fine
  385. # [18:49] <TabAtkins_> tantek: In practice it is rarely a few weeks from first LC to CR.
  386. # [18:49] <TabAtkins_> ChrisL: Often it takes way longer to process results.
  387. # [18:50] <TabAtkins_> tantek: How long a LC do you want, Sylvain?
  388. # [18:50] <TabAtkins_> tantek: So we have a proposal for, what, 8 weeks LC?
  389. # [18:50] <glenn> does that include time for processing? 8wks seems long for comment period
  390. # [18:51] <TabAtkins_> ChrisL: Seems like 8 weeks for dealing with issues, not actually the comment/review period.
  391. # [18:51] <glenn> 3-4 weeks should be enough for comments...
  392. # [18:51] * hober notes that we're still on the first agenda item
  393. # [18:51] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: I think 3 for review, 8 for dealing seems fine.
  394. # [18:51] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: I think we can realistically take this to CR in 2-3 months. If we don't think it's doable, what are we doing dropping prefixes?
  395. # [18:51] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: I think that in some cases, the specs are in bad shape where impls interop.
  396. # [18:52] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: Not saying everything, but several cases where we have interop but the spec doesn't describe it properly.
  397. # [18:52] <TabAtkins_> smfr: Can you give an example.
  398. # [18:52] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: Not off my head.
  399. # [18:52] <TabAtkins_> tantek: When that happened in css2.1, we just changed the spec.
  400. # [18:52] <TabAtkins_> dbaron: I'm not even saying the spec is different, but rather that it's unclear.
  401. # [18:52] <TabAtkins_> glenn: And that should be fast.
  402. # [18:52] <TabAtkins_> s/glenn/glazou/
  403. # [18:53] <dbaron> (Though I'm thinking of some aspects of the model for animations.)
  404. # [18:53] <Rossen> text-size-adjust is a good example of what dbaron just said
  405. # [18:53] <TabAtkins_> tantek: So, Sylvain, you want to drop prefixes in 11 weeks, not tomorrow, is that right?
  406. # [18:53] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: I think so, yeah.
  407. # [18:54] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: I don't want to make precedents for anything.
  408. # [18:54] * Joins: Ms2ger (Ms2ger@91.181.104.163)
  409. # [18:54] <glenn> where is "unprefixing rule" documented?
  410. # [18:54] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS/
  411. # [18:55] <TabAtkins_> tantek: No precedent, this is an exception.
  412. # [18:55] <smfr> glenn: the green text:http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS/#experimental
  413. # [18:55] <glenn> tnx
  414. # [18:55] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: We ahve a spec with four impls, but there hasn't been an urgency.
  415. # [18:56] * hober 11 minutes left; do we want to get to any of the other agenda items?
  416. # [18:56] <glazou> hober: I think this is top priority
  417. # [18:56] <TabAtkins_> [more unminuted discussion, arggggg]
  418. # [18:57] <TabAtkins_> glazou: I suggest the 3 browser vendors that want to unprefix discuss amongst themselves.
  419. # [18:57] <ChrisL> q?
  420. # [18:57] * Zakim sees fantasai, ChrisL on the speaker queue
  421. # [18:57] <TabAtkins_> glazou: No consensus is emerging, despite all the discussion that has already happened.
  422. # [18:57] <TabAtkins_> glazou: We are *moving on*.
  423. # [18:58] <tantek> q+
  424. # [18:58] * Zakim sees fantasai, ChrisL, tantek on the speaker queue
  425. # [18:58] <dbaron> ack ChrisL
  426. # [18:58] <TabAtkins_> ChrisL: Since we don't have consensus on dropping prefixes, I think the chair should discuss moving LC forward.
  427. # [18:58] * Zakim sees fantasai, tantek on the speaker queue
  428. # [18:58] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Agreed.
  429. # [18:58] <fantasai> [unminuted discussion consisted of Sylvain arguing for just going through with the process rather than making an exception, and others arguing for making the exception]
  430. # [18:58] <TabAtkins_> glazou: So what are we going to do to address the issue asap.
  431. # [18:58] <Bert> q- fan
  432. # [18:58] * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
  433. # [18:58] <TabAtkins_> smfr: It seems we need to split into 3 and 4, where the new SVG stuff goes into level 4.
  434. # [18:58] <TabAtkins_> smfr: With the remaining issue being 3d transforms.
  435. # [18:59] <fantasai> [other unminuted discussion about daniel ruling that there is no consensus, and we should therefore dedicate our time to solving the issues and moving the spec forward]
  436. # [18:59] <TabAtkins_> tantek: I agree with smfr. I think that the problem here is not being properly understood. We'd like to implement unprefixed at the same time.
  437. # [18:59] <dbaron> ack tantek
  438. # [18:59] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  439. # [19:00] <TabAtkins_> tantek: Let me make it clear. If the WG cannot unprefix quickly, we (firefox) will implement -webkit- prefixes.
  440. # [19:00] <TabAtkins_> Dirk: Because of level 3/4 splitting, I don't think it makes sense to do the SVG stuff in two levels.
  441. # [19:00] <TabAtkins_> Dirk: I don't think SVG is blocking 2d transforms, maybe 3d transforms.
  442. # [19:00] <glenn> wouldn't it be better to go to a common prefix rather than reimplementing vendor specific prefixes? e.g., instead of simply dropping rule, encourage all vendors to support -w3-wd-... or some such?
  443. # [19:00] <sylvaing> i understand webkit-only properties being an issue for mobile; transforms is not in that category imo
  444. # [19:01] <TabAtkins_> ChrisL: We know what the differences are between SVG and CSS transforms.
  445. # [19:01] * TabAtkins_ glenn, no, that doesn't solve the problem, and introduces new and exciting ones.
  446. # [19:01] <TabAtkins_> tantek: For transitions and animations, you do?
  447. # [19:02] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: No, I don't think any of those are killer.
  448. # [19:02] <dbaron> TabAtkins: sylvain, that's different from what you said at the f2f
  449. # [19:02] <dbaron> sylvain: No, it's consistent.
  450. # [19:02] * Quits: krit (Adium@24.6.231.253) (Quit: Leaving.)
  451. # [19:02] <fantasai> Sylvain said that -webkit-was a problem. He did not say that transforms was a problem.
  452. # [19:02] <TabAtkins_> sylvaing: I don't think 3 months will make a difference. I want to prioritize and move on.
  453. # [19:02] * Joins: krit (Adium@24.6.231.253)
  454. # [19:03] <TabAtkins_> tantek: If the option is between -webkit- and unprefixed, or -webkit- and nothign else, I prefer the first option. But delaying unprefixed will not delay the decision we're making.
  455. # [19:03] <TabAtkins_> florianr: This seems USELESS to continue discussing, since this is not working here.
  456. # [19:04] <glenn> would prefer a common w3c sanctioned prefix over no prefix
  457. # [19:04] <tantek> I want to hear from everyone who voted (2), what issues do you see as blocking LC for those 3 specs?
  458. # [19:04] <TabAtkins_> glenn: Moz, MS, Opera, discuss together next week and bring a COMMON position to the WG.
  459. # [19:04] <TabAtkins_> s/glenn/glazou/
  460. # [19:04] <TabAtkins_> glazou: If we end up with multiple positions in our call next week, this is a *waste of our time*.
  461. # [19:04] <TabAtkins_> glazou: So start that immediately in the mailing list.
  462. # [19:04] <TabAtkins_> glazou: tantek, can we try that?
  463. # [19:05] <TabAtkins_> glazou: Today we came for discussion, and I thought the 3 browser vendors had a common position. Apparently that's not the case.
  464. # [19:05] <TabAtkins_> glazou: So please get your positions together and bring it to the group, so we don't waste our time again.
  465. # [19:05] * Quits: krit (Adium@24.6.231.253) (Quit: Leaving.)
  466. # [19:05] <TabAtkins_> tantek: I've put our position on the table.
  467. # [19:05] <TabAtkins_> tantek: I think the onus is on the objectors.
  468. # [19:06] <glazou> s/onus/burden
  469. # [19:06] <TabAtkins_> tantek: Anyone who objects, please bring reasons for why they're opposing unprefixing, or why they're opposing LC.
  470. # [19:07] * Bert says goodbye to Tab :-)
  471. # [19:07] * ChrisL goodnight john-boy. Goodnight, mary-ellen
  472. # [19:07] <TabAtkins_> glazou: I suggest we adjourn on this failure status, and we work on the issues RIGHT NOW in the mailing list.
  473. # [19:07] <TabAtkins_> glazou: I can't declare any consuses with a 9-8 vote.
  474. # [19:07] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  475. # [19:07] <Zakim> -glenn
  476. # [19:07] <Zakim> -antonp
  477. # [19:07] <Zakim> -dbaron
  478. # [19:07] <Zakim> -krit
  479. # [19:07] <Zakim> -kojiishi
  480. # [19:07] <Zakim> -[Apple.a]
  481. # [19:07] * Parts: antonp (50a94e63@78.129.202.38)
  482. # [19:07] <Zakim> -??P75
  483. # [19:07] <Zakim> - +1.650.253.aadd
  484. # [19:08] <Zakim> -Rossen
  485. # [19:08] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  486. # [19:08] <Zakim> -Bert
  487. # [19:08] <Zakim> -tantek
  488. # [19:08] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  489. # [19:08] <Zakim> -florianr
  490. # [19:08] <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, stearns, plinss, nimbu, ChrisL, howcome
  491. # [19:08] * Quits: arronei (arronei@198.228.222.75) (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone)
  492. # [19:08] <Zakim> -howcome
  493. # [19:08] <Zakim> -stearns
  494. # [19:08] <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  495. # [19:08] <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, plinss, nimbu, ChrisL
  496. # [19:08] <nimbu> what I am out of phone
  497. # [19:08] * Quits: kojiishi (kojiishi@222.158.227.129) (Quit: Leaving...)
  498. # [19:08] <nimbu> :/
  499. # [19:08] <ChrisL> zakim, drop nimbu
  500. # [19:08] <Zakim> nimbu is being disconnected
  501. # [19:08] <Zakim> -nimbu
  502. # [19:08] * Parts: smfr (smfr@17.212.152.232)
  503. # [19:08] * Quits: dstorey (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  504. # [19:08] * Quits: Rossen (Rossen@131.107.0.117) (Quit: Rossen)
  505. # [19:09] * Quits: danielweck (danielweck@109.224.135.53) (Quit: danielweck)
  506. # [19:09] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@159.63.23.38) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  507. # [19:09] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@159.63.23.38)
  508. # [19:09] * tantek is going to continue pushing for taking those 3 specs to last call.
  509. # [19:09] <TabAtkins_> tantek: Yes, please.
  510. # [19:10] <TabAtkins_> Also: OMG
  511. # [19:10] * ChrisL tantek i thought we agreed to move to lcwd asap?
  512. # [19:10] * fantasai thinks that's fine, as long as we get to address all the issues during LC, note that we'll have to publish yet another LC after that most likely...
  513. # [19:10] <stearns> tantek: if it goes too slowly and you end up implementing -webkit-, will you drop -webkit- once the process finally gets to the unprefixing state?
  514. # [19:10] <tantek> ChrisL - no, the people that objected to (1) stopped that.
  515. # [19:11] <tantek> stearns - unknown
  516. # [19:11] <fantasai> tantek: Then you needed another option: Publish LCWD now, don't drop prefixes until CR
  517. # [19:11] <tantek> fantasai - sure, if we have to publish multiple last calls, so be it.
  518. # [19:11] <tantek> no, we need to drop prefixes as part of the exception clause for the snapshot as part of this
  519. # [19:12] <ChrisL> tantek no. options 1 and 2 both involved moving to lcwd. the only difference was whether prefixes got dropped at lc or at cr
  520. # [19:12] <fantasai> tantek: we spent the entire telecon arguing about that, and got no progress on moving to LC as a result
  521. # [19:12] * Quits: SteveZ (chatzilla@157.22.251.133) (Connection reset by peer)
  522. # [19:12] <tantek> ChrisL - no such promise was made in 2
  523. # [19:12] <tantek> from IRC: 2) No exception, just try to move the specs fast
  524. # [19:13] * Joins: SteveZ (chatzilla@157.22.251.133)
  525. # [19:13] <glazou> tantek: see query
  526. # [19:14] <tantek> fantasai - I've never had much hope for telcon productivity in general, so unfortunately I'm not that surprised.
  527. # [19:19] <tantek> ChrisL - I'm still planning on asking to move Transforms, Transitions, Animations to LC ASAP.
  528. # [19:19] <tantek> regardless of prefix discussions
  529. # [19:19] <tantek> btw
  530. # [19:19] <florianr> Forgive me being a noob, but how does it help to move a spec to LC with known issues, if we don't drop prefixes as well?
  531. # [19:19] * Parts: howcome (howcome@88.89.78.85)
  532. # [19:19] <tantek> florianr - it helps force resolution of issues more quickly
  533. # [19:20] <tantek> which then tends to remove objections to drop prefixes
  534. # [19:20] <Zakim> -glazou
  535. # [19:20] <Zakim> -ChrisL
  536. # [19:20] * Quits: glenn (gadams@71.218.123.166) (Client exited)
  537. # [19:20] <Zakim> -plinss
  538. # [19:20] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  539. # [19:20] <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, Doug_Schepers, +1.206.550.aaaa, Bert, stearns, glenn, florianr, [Microsoft], hober, plinss, fantasai, [Apple], +93550aabb, danielweck, smfr, krit,
  540. # [19:20] <Zakim> ... +1.415.871.aacc, antonp, +1.650.253.aadd, +1.206.552.aaee, tantek, dbaron, kojiishi, ChrisL, +47.21.65.aaff, howcome, nimbu, Rossen
  541. # [19:20] <fantasai> tantek: That can be done with less process overhead by addressing issues at a high priority while implementing high-fidelity tracking
  542. # [19:21] <fantasai> tantek: The advantage of LC is that it pushes people to report their issues
  543. # [19:21] <fantasai> tantek: and review if they haven't yet
  544. # [19:21] <tantek> fantasai - in practice I don't believe that. In practice going to LC is what causes more quick reporting/addressing of issues.
  545. # [19:21] <fantasai> tantek: The disadvantage is that when you make significant changes as a result of feedback, you have to recycle through LC, which imposes 3-week minimum
  546. # [19:22] <tantek> fine with going thru LC again
  547. # [19:22] <tantek> we already agreed it would take 8 weeks *after* LC
  548. # [19:22] <tantek> so that gives us 2 more LC cycles :P
  549. # [19:22] <fantasai> heh
  550. # [19:22] <tantek> 3 if we push to 9 weeks
  551. # [19:22] <tantek> <-- can do division
  552. # [19:22] <tantek> btw, LOTS of people have been complaining that the problem with the -webkit- prefixes being established / mobile web monoculture is that the CSSWG has not moved fast enough - e.g. @stubbornella.
  553. # [19:22] <tantek> today's telcon was clear support of that hypothesis
  554. # [19:23] <tantek> that it's the CSSWG's fault for moving too slowly.
  555. # [19:23] <fantasai> tantek: There were multiple telecons last December where daniel cancelled or closed early because nobody brought any issues forward for WG resolution
  556. # [19:23] <fantasai> tantek: Transforms issues could have been addressed during that time
  557. # [19:23] <fantasai> tantek: Why were they not addressed?
  558. # [19:23] <tantek> because it wasn't in LC
  559. # [19:23] <tantek> LC forces the resolutions
  560. # [19:24] <glazou> tantek: s/CSSWG/a few members/
  561. # [19:24] <glazou> please
  562. # [19:24] <fantasai> tantek: No it doesn't, the editor bringing up the issues to the WG does.
  563. # [19:24] <tantek> glazou - that's not what people see
  564. # [19:24] <glazou> uuuuh ?????
  565. # [19:24] <tantek> they see lack of consensus
  566. # [19:24] <glazou> and
  567. # [19:24] <glazou> ?
  568. # [19:24] <tantek> they see process
  569. # [19:24] <tantek> etc.
  570. # [19:24] <glazou> we should be dictators ???
  571. # [19:24] <fantasai> tantek: If the spec is in LC, and the editor is MIA, nothing moves.
  572. # [19:24] <tantek> they see objection without providing reasons
  573. # [19:24] <florianr> I'll have to side with fantasai here
  574. # [19:24] <fantasai> tantek: Same as if the spec is in WD, and the editor is MIA, nothing moves.
  575. # [19:24] <tantek> fantasai - I'm working on that editor MIA aspect
  576. # [19:25] * florianr wonders what MIA means
  577. # [19:25] <fantasai> Missing In Action
  578. # [19:25] <glazou> Missing iIn Action
  579. # [19:26] <fantasai> In the last 9 months I do not recall any Transforms issues being addressed by the CSSWG except at F2Fs.
  580. # [19:26] <glazou> nobody ever brought that as agenda item
  581. # [19:26] <glazou> ever
  582. # [19:26] <fantasai> How can you make fast progress with that?
  583. # [19:26] <glazou> and we kept asking
  584. # [19:27] <fantasai> Exactly.
  585. # [19:27] <glazou> so seen from peter and I, it was NOT urgent
  586. # [19:27] <glazou> we have no brain scanners
  587. # [19:27] <glazou> we deal with what we see
  588. # [19:27] <glazou> and the requests we get
  589. # [19:27] <glazou> so I am _extremely_ upset and depressed to read some considered it's WG fault
  590. # [19:27] <glazou> it is NOT
  591. # [19:28] <glazou> name the guilty ones: MEMBERS
  592. # [19:28] <glazou> we do what the MEMBERS want here
  593. # [19:28] <glazou> always
  594. # [19:28] <glazou> anyway, I have to go
  595. # [19:28] <florianr> Here is a (perhaps naive) proposal. The chairs should make sure to nag members until each document that has reach FPWD or later has at least two editors from a different member
  596. # [19:28] <glazou> hope my kids will be in better shape than this WG
  597. # [19:28] <glazou> bye
  598. # [19:28] <florianr> just a second glazou
  599. # [19:28] <glazou> not more
  600. # [19:29] <florianr> what do you think of what I said above
  601. # [19:29] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58) (Quit: :tiuQ tiuq sah woclrak)
  602. # [19:29] <glazou> in theory, nice ; in practice that's another story
  603. # [19:29] <glazou> members DO resist to such proposals
  604. # [19:29] <glazou> and that's not WG's responsibility but theirs
  605. # [19:29] * fantasai notes that an unwilling editor is not a useful editor :)
  606. # [19:29] <glazou> right
  607. # [19:29] <florianr> of course not
  608. # [19:29] <glazou> or an editor that disappears during six months
  609. # [19:30] <glazou> or more
  610. # [19:30] <glazou> nothing the chairs can do there
  611. # [19:30] <glazou> if the members don't jump on it
  612. # [19:30] <fantasai> but it might be nice to point it out as a risk to progress when a spec's editor list is insufficiently diverse
  613. # [19:30] <glazou> if that's urgent, they should act !
  614. # [19:30] <glazou> I really need to go, and I killed my evening enough for today
  615. # [19:30] <glazou> bye
  616. # [19:30] <florianr> bye
  617. # [19:31] * Quits: glazou (glazou@82.247.96.19) (Quit: really bad day)
  618. # [19:32] <hober> fantasai: in the last 9 months many transforms bugs have been resolved in bugzilla & the spec. so i'm not sure what you mean when you say that that's only happened at f2fs
  619. # [19:34] <nimbu> i think fantasai means it doesnt get discussed in teleconfs
  620. # [19:34] <fantasai> yeah
  621. # [19:35] * Quits: SimonSapin (simon@82.232.219.95) (Ping timeout)
  622. # [19:38] <dbaron> it doesn't need to get discussed in telecons to make progress
  623. # [19:38] <dbaron> things can happen via email
  624. # [19:38] <dbaron> it gives group members a distorted image of where progress is being made, though
  625. # [19:38] <fantasai> but if there are issues blocked on WG resolution, they should be brought up
  626. # [19:39] <fantasai> and if there are issues being resolved and changes being made, there should be Working Drafts published
  627. # [19:39] <fantasai> that both keeps the /TR page up-to-date, but also functions as a check point
  628. # [19:40] <dbaron> if that were as easy as pressing a button, fine
  629. # [19:40] <dbaron> but, frankly, it's not, so it takes time away from actually addressing issues
  630. # [19:41] <Bert> It almost is: just ask for a decision to publish in the WG and then I'll do the rest...
  631. # [19:47] * Quits: jet (jet@67.169.43.128) (Quit: jet)
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  633. # [20:02] <tantek> editors being MIA is a good reason to allow forking specs
  634. # [20:02] <tantek> Bert - getting the WG to agreed to the decision to publish is the problem
  635. # [20:02] <tantek> we couldn't even agree to take 3 relatively stable drafts to LC
  636. # [20:03] <tantek> despite sense of urgency etc.
  637. # [20:03] <tantek> actually, HTMLWG has it better in this way
  638. # [20:03] <tantek> they automatically publish latest editor's drafts as heartbeat TR WDs
  639. # [20:04] <tantek> unless there is a specific objection
  640. # [20:04] <tantek> so in practice, people being MIA or unresponsive don't block TR WD publication
  641. # [20:04] <Ms2ger> tantek, well yes, because they can't get consensus on anything but editorial issues
  642. # [20:04] <fantasai> tantek: LC is different than WD
  643. # [20:04] <tantek> perhaps we should switch to that model for CSSWG
  644. # [20:04] <fantasai> tantek: WD would get few, if any, objections
  645. # [20:04] <tantek> so that at least our public WDs wouldn't get 2+ years out of date :(
  646. # [20:04] <fantasai> tantek: LC implies that all issues are resolved, and we know they're not
  647. # [20:05] <fantasai> tantek: that's probably a good idea. Right now we rely on editor's to request publication, and they often dont.
  648. # [20:05] * Quits: drublic (drublic@95.115.33.166) (Ping timeout)
  649. # [20:05] <fantasai> tantek: btw, you're one of those
  650. # [20:05] <fantasai> :)
  651. # [20:05] <tantek> fantasai, http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-animations/ is almost 3 years old. http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-animations/ was updated last week.
  652. # [20:05] <fantasai> tantek: I *know*
  653. # [20:05] <tantek> that's the problem I'm talking about
  654. # [20:05] <tantek> HTMLWG heartbeat publishing of WDs is better in that regard
  655. # [20:05] <tantek> we should just adopt that in the WG
  656. # [20:05] <tantek> CSSWG
  657. # [20:06] <fantasai> tantek: Makes less sense for us because we have so many specs
  658. # [20:06] <tantek> no
  659. # [20:06] <tantek> makes *more* sense
  660. # [20:06] <fantasai> tantek: Publishing eveyrthing that hasn't changed is not useful
  661. # [20:06] <tantek> too easy to miss a neglected spec
  662. # [20:06] <Ms2ger> Someone could write an app to compare the last update of TR and ED specs, and send email to css-wg once the difference is more than three months
  663. # [20:06] <tantek> fantasai - they HAVE changed
  664. # [20:06] <tantek> that's the problem
  665. # [20:06] <tantek> in the editor's draft
  666. # [20:06] <tantek> duh
  667. # [20:06] <tantek> Ms2ger - or we could make the chairs do it
  668. # [20:06] <fantasai> tantek: YES, we should publish THE ONES THAT HAVE CHANGED, but not EVERYTHING
  669. # [20:06] <tantek> the way the HTMLWG chairs do it
  670. # [20:07] <tantek> fantasai - why bother with the difference?
  671. # [20:07] <tantek> why are you making extra work?
  672. # [20:07] <fantasai> tantek: because people rely on the date to know when the draft was last updated
  673. # [20:07] <tantek> just publish updates for all of them
  674. # [20:07] <fantasai> tantek: No, I refuse to agree with you.
  675. # [20:07] <tantek> so they do for the editor's draft as well
  676. # [20:07] <tantek> all that's happened is that TR has become irrelevant
  677. # [20:07] <tantek> and people implemented ED now
  678. # [20:08] <tantek> so you can either ignore that and be ok
  679. # [20:08] <tantek> with it
  680. # [20:08] <tantek> or try to salvage TR
  681. # [20:08] <fantasai> *sigh*
  682. # [20:08] <fantasai> you're ridiculous
  683. # [20:08] <fantasai> and I am not discussing this anymore with you
  684. # [20:08] <tantek> and with ad hominem I'm outta here
  685. # [20:08] * fantasai will be happy to discuss with Ms2ger
  686. # [20:08] <tantek> try again tomorrow.
  687. # [20:08] <fantasai> but I am going to dinner now
  688. # [20:09] <Ms2ger> Heh
  689. # [20:09] <Ms2ger> Enjoy dinner
  690. # [20:09] * Ms2ger doesn't mind TR dying, himself
  691. # [20:09] * fantasai would, but probably doesn't interpret that the same as you
  692. # Session Close: Wed Feb 15 20:25:56 2012
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  699. # [20:27] * Topic is 'CSS Working Group | logged at http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  700. # [20:27] * Set by dbaron on Wed Oct 12 01:04:03
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  708. # [20:54] <TabAtkins_> plinss: I love you.
  709. # [20:54] <plinss> :-)
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  718. # [21:15] <shepazu> plinss: I love your gavel
  719. # [21:16] <shepazu> THAT IS NOT A EUPHAMISM!!!!
  720. # [21:16] <shepazu> an euphamism?
  721. # [21:17] <TabAtkins_> It's spelled "stephen".
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  730. # [21:55] <tpod> Plinss that video was pretty funny. And I've never watched The Wire either.
  731. # [21:56] <tpod> BTW I've created issues pages for transforms, transitions, and animations on our wiki.
  732. # [21:56] <Ms2ger> We've got those in bugzilla
  733. # [22:03] <nimbu> tpod: you are missing something really really amazing
  734. # [22:04] <nimbu> i may not evangelise html5 but I will evangelize The Wire
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  738. # [22:06] <sylvaing> The Wire is effing awesome
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  740. # [22:11] <stearns> thirding on the Wire. Probably the best series ever broadcast on TV.
  741. # [22:16] <nimbu> agreed
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  746. # [22:22] <sylvaing> The Sopranos is also up there
  747. # [22:23] <sylvaing> though the David Simon miniseries that preceded The Wire was pretty darn good too
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The end :)