/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2013-04-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 03 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  6. # [00:10] <fantasai> ojan: the grid-row/grid-column properties still exist
  7. # [00:10] <fantasai> ojan: I expect people who think in terms of tracks would be using those
  8. # [00:10] <fantasai> ojan: It won't do exactly the same thing, but it can do something consistent. :)
  9. # [00:11] <fantasai> ojan: grid-start: -1 puts you in track between -1 and 0
  10. # [00:11] <fantasai> ojan: grid-end: -1 puts you in track between -2 and -1
  11. # [00:11] <fantasai> TabAtkins, krit: What are Masking's back-compat constraints?
  12. # [00:11] <fantasai> TabAtkins, krit: Anything besides SVG 1.1's properties?
  13. # [00:21] <krit> fantasai: WebKit has a nearly complete implementation of CSS Masking that is used in the wild for a couple of years
  14. # [00:22] <krit> fantasai: but I do not think that I said that there are back-compat constraints IIRC
  15. # [00:22] <fantasai> krit: Because I'm looking at some of the syntax here for mask-image, and it does not make sense
  16. # [00:22] <fantasai> krit: e.g. select() only works on child elements
  17. # [00:22] <krit> fantasai: as example?
  18. # [00:22] <fantasai> krit: I would expect it to work like most other things that take a scoped selector
  19. # [00:22] <krit> fantasai: right, that was a big wish of the SVG WG
  20. # [00:23] <fantasai> krit: or in some way indicate that it doesn't do that
  21. # [00:23] <krit> fantasai: It doesn't work on HTML content, right
  22. # [00:23] <fantasai> krit: other things accept descendants
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  24. # [00:23] <fantasai> krit: other things that take scoped selectors, whatever you pass in, it scans as for any descendant of the scoping element
  25. # [00:24] <fantasai> krit: but this one doesn't, and it's not clear that it doesn't
  26. # [00:24] <krit> fantasai: well, because it might just doesn't work at the moment
  27. # [00:24] <fantasai> krit: you'll break things if you change that definition later
  28. # [00:24] <krit> fantasai: the hope was that you can add <mask> as a direct child of any HTML element in the near future
  29. # [00:25] <krit> fantasai: no, that is the point
  30. # [00:25] <fantasai> krit: Allowing <mask> in the content model later is fine
  31. # [00:25] <krit> fantasai: it is done in a way that it does not break the future
  32. # [00:25] <krit> fantasai: right
  33. # [00:25] <fantasai> krit: changing the meaning of select(mask) to include descendants later is not
  34. # [00:25] <fantasai> krit: Either you do it now, or you do it never
  35. # [00:26] <krit> fantasai: <div><mask/></div> does not work at the moment, just because HTML does not allow direct descendants of SVG NS in HTML content at the moment.
  36. # [00:26] <krit> fantasai: but I am not excluding it in masking
  37. # [00:27] <krit> fantasai: means it is possible to define select() in CSS, it just won't work on HTML content
  38. # [00:27] <krit> fantasai: it does on SVG content
  39. # [00:27] <fantasai> krit: <div><ul><li><svg><mask/></svg></li></ul></div>
  40. # [00:27] <fantasai> krit: If I set div { mask: select(mask); }
  41. # [00:27] <krit> fantasai: if someday HTML allows SVG NS elements in HTML, it will work there as well
  42. # [00:27] <fantasai> krit: Right now that selects nothing
  43. # [00:27] <fantasai> krit: If in the future it selects that mask element, we have a problem.
  44. # [00:28] <krit> fantasai: not sure if we have a problem, but that was the supposed behavior mainly driven by TabAtkins_ IIRC
  45. # [00:28] <fantasai> what was the supposed behavior?
  46. # [00:29] <fantasai> Selecting only children, or selecting any descendant, or selecting only children today but selecting any descendant five years from now?
  47. # [00:29] <fantasai> I think the last option is very problematic.
  48. # [00:29] <fantasai> And the first one is unclear from the syntax and inconsistent with the way selectors are used elsewhere.
  49. # [00:30] <fantasai> Which means either we should go with #2, or change the syntax to be clear that only children are considered
  50. # [00:30] <fantasai> e.g. call it child(<selector>)
  51. # [00:31] <krit> fantasai: first of all, there is no requirement to add select() to be back-comp with SVG. This is a totally new feature.
  52. # [00:32] <fantasai> SVG only has http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/masking.html#MaskProperty , right?
  53. # [00:32] <krit> fantasai: second, we did not use child(), since you can add the whole fature set of CSS selectors in their
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  55. # [00:33] <krit> fantasai: the idea was to limit the selection to the direct decsendants
  56. # [00:33] <krit> fantasai: yes
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  58. # [00:33] <fantasai> "direct descendant" == "child", no?
  59. # [00:33] <krit> fantasai: well, you could have <div><mask/><mask/><mask/></div>
  60. # [00:33] <krit> fantasai: what is child?
  61. # [00:33] <fantasai> The spec is totally unclear on this point, fwiw
  62. # [00:34] <fantasai> I'm guessing from the definition of the 'child' value, how 'select()' operates.
  63. # [00:34] <fantasai> actually
  64. # [00:34] <fantasai> it makes no sense at all
  65. # [00:34] <fantasai> at all
  66. # [00:34] <fantasai> "A keyword to indicate that the last direct sibling ‘mask’ element of the element the ‘mask-image’ property is applied should be used as the mask source."
  67. # [00:34] <fantasai> So, if I apply this property to a <div>, only a <mask> sibling of the <div> would get selected
  68. # [00:34] <fantasai> ?
  69. # [00:35] <fantasai> That seems rather odd
  70. # [00:35] <krit> right
  71. # [00:35] <fantasai> I would expect a value called "child" to select some kind of child of the element, not its sibling
  72. # [00:35] <fantasai> If we're selecting the element's sibling, shouldn't it be called "sibling" instead of "child"? :)
  73. # [00:35] <krit> fantasai: that is actually a bug
  74. # [00:35] <krit> fantasai: sorry, didn't get your point
  75. # [00:36] <fantasai> per spec
  76. # [00:36] <krit> fantasai: yes, sibling is wrong
  77. # [00:36] <fantasai> <div><mask id="mask1"/></div>
  78. # [00:36] <fantasai> <mask id="mask2">
  79. # [00:36] <fantasai> div { mask: child; } selectos mask2
  80. # [00:36] <fantasai> that seems really weird
  81. # [00:36] <fantasai> what was meant there?
  82. # [00:36] <krit> fantasai: it shoiud select the direct descendant
  83. # [00:37] <krit> fantasai: so mask1
  84. # [00:37] <fantasai> OK, what about
  85. # [00:37] <fantasai> <div><article><mask id="mask1"/></article><mask id="mask2"/></div>
  86. # [00:38] <fantasai> Which one is selected there?
  87. # [00:38] <krit> mask2, if the property is set for div
  88. # [00:39] <fantasai> Remove mask2 from the tree
  89. # [00:39] <fantasai> now what is selected?
  90. # [00:40] <krit> nothing
  91. # [00:41] <fantasai> ok
  92. # [00:41] <fantasai> so, yeah, we need to fix s/direct sibling/direct child/
  93. # [00:41] <fantasai> and I would strongly recommend s/select()/child()/
  94. # [00:42] * fantasai will write an email
  95. # [00:42] <krit> fantasai: changed it to 'descendant' already, is that ok?
  96. # [00:42] <fantasai> no
  97. # [00:42] <krit> should be child?
  98. # [00:42] <fantasai> that's what you meant, so that's what you should write :)
  99. # [00:42] <fantasai> I am a direct descendant of my great-grandmother, but I am not her child. :)
  100. # [00:43] <krit> I see, makes sense
  101. # [00:43] <liam> you obviously don't come from Arke... er n/m
  102. # [00:44] <liam> sorry, we get too many of these conversations about child elements vs. descendants vs. descendant-or-self with XPath
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  191. # [17:01] <nvdbleek> zakim, code?
  192. # [17:05] * Joins: krit (~krit@public.cloak)
  193. # [17:10] <TabAtkins_> nvdbleek: It's in your email, on the private list.
  194. # [17:11] * nvdbleek sorry, I was an hour early ;)
  195. # [17:11] <TabAtkins_> krit: References are based on the biblio file, so they haven't changed.
  196. # [17:11] <TabAtkins_> ojan: Devs can avoid lines entirely if they like, by just using grid-row and grid-column.
  197. # [17:14] <krit> TabAtkins_: ok, but should the well known spec CSS3 Transforms change it's title?
  198. # [17:14] <krit> TabAtkins_: CSS Exclusions mentions level 3 as well
  199. # [17:15] <TabAtkins_> krit: We certainly *could*. Ask Bert to change the biblio file, he's the only one with access I think.
  200. # [17:15] <krit> TabAtkins_: well, I am not only asking because of Bert s ref file
  201. # [17:16] <krit> TabAtkins_: Do the TR references change as well in the future?
  202. # [17:16] <krit> TabAtkins_: currently it is still css3-transforms, css3-animations and so on
  203. # [17:16] <krit> TabAtkins_: I am asking because of curiosity and preparation
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  208. # [17:41] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  209. # [17:41] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 16 minutes
  210. # [17:41] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  211. # [17:41] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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  215. # [17:46] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  216. # [17:46] <Zakim> +rhauck
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  220. # [17:50] <plh> regrets (again) for the CSS call. I'll be on the call next week for sure.
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  222. # [17:51] <TabAtkins_> I'm going to be probably 15 minutes late - I have to meet with someone in London, and our timing is constrained right now.
  223. # [17:52] <krit> Zakim, who is on the phone?
  224. # [17:52] <Zakim> On the phone I see rhauck
  225. # [17:52] <Zakim> +plinss
  226. # [17:52] <krit> zakim, krit is with rhauck
  227. # [17:52] <Zakim> +krit; got it
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  231. # [17:54] <TabAtkins_> krit: Yes, we plan to change the TR names as we publish new drafts (or maybe a mass move, we dunno).
  232. # [17:54] <Zakim> +djackson
  233. # [17:55] <Zakim> +sgalineau
  234. # [17:56] * krit misses sgalineau's discussions about CSS Animations
  235. # [17:56] <Zakim> +??P37
  236. # [17:56] <glazou> Zakim, ??P37 is me
  237. # [17:56] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  238. # [17:56] <Zakim> +fantasai
  239. # [17:56] <Zakim> +antonp
  240. # [17:56] <Zakim> +??P44
  241. # [17:57] <Zakim> +SimonSapin
  242. # [17:57] <antonp> Zakim is fast today
  243. # [17:57] * sgalineau forgot to add the bit about translating vendor prefixes i.e. '-troussetoile' being the french equivalent to '-webkit'
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  245. # [17:57] <Zakim> +Stearns
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  247. # [17:58] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
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  249. # [17:58] <rhauck> plinss: can I add one thing to the agenda - it's very quick- just some announcements about upcoming TestTWF events
  250. # [17:58] <plinss> sure
  251. # [17:59] <Zakim> +SteveZ
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  254. # [17:59] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
  255. # [17:59] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
  256. # [17:59] <Zakim> +dbaron
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  261. # [18:00] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  262. # [18:00] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  263. # [18:00] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  264. # [18:00] <hober> Zakim, Apple is me
  265. # [18:00] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  266. # [18:00] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
  267. # [18:00] <Zakim> +smfr
  268. # [18:00] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: antonp (9%), SimonSapin (16%), SteveZ (11%)
  269. # [18:00] <Zakim> +BradK
  270. # [18:00] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  271. # [18:00] <Rossen> zakim, microsoft has me
  272. # [18:00] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
  273. # [18:00] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
  274. # [18:01] <SimonSapin> Zakim: mute me
  275. # [18:01] <JohnJansen> Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
  276. # [18:01] <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
  277. # [18:01] <SimonSapin> Zakim: mute SimonSapin
  278. # [18:01] <glazou> Zakim, mute SimonSapin
  279. # [18:01] <Zakim> SimonSapin should now be muted
  280. # [18:01] <SimonSapin> better?
  281. # [18:01] <Zakim> -BradK
  282. # [18:01] <SimonSapin> not sure why, it’s the same phone as usual. And the phone’s own muting is on
  283. # [18:02] * Quits: jdovey (~jdovey@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  284. # [18:02] <Zakim> +BradK
  285. # [18:02] <plinss> must be noise on the line
  286. # [18:02] <SteveZ> I will do it
  287. # [18:03] <Zakim> +Bert
  288. # [18:03] * smfr changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Apr/0031.html'
  289. # [18:03] <Ms2ger> ScribeNick: SteveZ
  290. # [18:03] <SteveZ> rrsagaint, scribenick SteveZ
  291. # [18:03] <SteveZ> Add announcement of Test the Web Forward
  292. # [18:04] <glazou> overlap with SVG ftf ?
  293. # [18:04] <SteveZ> Rebecca: TwF is planning an event following the CSS meeting in Japan. We are all invited
  294. # [18:04] * sgalineau glazou, TTWF is usually Friday afternoon/Saturday….
  295. # [18:04] <glazou> ah right
  296. # [18:04] <SteveZ> There is also a TwF event in Seattle at Microsoft next week
  297. # [18:04] <SimonSapin> F2F is Wednesday 5 ~ Friday 7, overlap with TTWF?
  298. # [18:05] <rhauck> TTWF will start around happy hour time :)
  299. # [18:05] <SteveZ> Topic: CSS3 Overflow
  300. # [18:05] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aaa]
  301. # [18:05] <arronei> zakim, microsoft has me
  302. # [18:05] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
  303. # [18:05] <nvdbleek> zakim, code?
  304. # [18:05] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek
  305. # [18:05] <SteveZ> DBaron: We agreed to wait till this week
  306. # [18:05] <Bert> (I think Florian's comment is good, too.)
  307. # [18:05] <SteveZ> Fantasai: I pretty much agree with Florian Comments
  308. # [18:06] <smfr> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-overflow/
  309. # [18:06] <SteveZ> Dirk: ?
  310. # [18:06] <krit> yes
  311. # [18:06] <Bert> (Not sure about any of the new stuff in the module, :-) but no problem with trying it out.)
  312. # [18:06] <SteveZ> DBaron: Something split into three boxes with prior and later sibling then have prior sibliing, 3 boxes, and laster sibling
  313. # [18:07] * krit SteveZ Dirk == krit
  314. # [18:07] <SteveZ> Glazou: So if you say display block things will work correctly?
  315. # [18:07] * Joins: jdovey (~jdovey@public.cloak)
  316. # [18:07] <SteveZ> DBaron: Yes
  317. # [18:07] <glazou> s/block/inline-block
  318. # [18:07] <SteveZ> DBaron: I am fine with adding Florian's issue
  319. # [18:07] <MaRakow> zakim, microsoft has me
  320. # [18:07] <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
  321. # [18:08] <SteveZ> PLiness: Any objections?
  322. # [18:08] <krit> s/Dirk: ?/krit: If an element has overflowing content creating new boxes, how do these boxes interact with siblings of the original element./
  323. # [18:08] <SteveZ> Brad: Can you eventually move the Page overflow here?
  324. # [18:08] * Joins: israelh (~israelh@public.cloak)
  325. # [18:08] <SteveZ> DBaron: yes
  326. # [18:08] <SimonSapin> Zakim, unmute me
  327. # [18:08] <Zakim> SimonSapin should no longer be muted
  328. # [18:08] <SteveZ> RESOLVED: Publish the FPWD
  329. # [18:09] <SteveZ> Topic Exclusions
  330. # [18:09] <smfr> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0659.html
  331. # [18:09] <tantek> and Zakim keeps hanging up on me
  332. # [18:10] <SteveZ> Alan: does a shape inside work like floats do or like an exclusion does in affecting lines of children
  333. # [18:10] <SteveZ> SteveZ: If defined as float, it will not affect lines of BFCs
  334. # [18:10] <Zakim> +nvdbleek
  335. # [18:10] <SteveZ> Alan: If deifned as exclusion, it will affect lines of BFCs
  336. # [18:11] <Zakim> +Tab_Atkins
  337. # [18:11] <SteveZ> Rossen: Shape inside should not behave differently than shape outside
  338. # [18:12] <SteveZ> Alan: if Shape Outside has two behaviors depending on what the shape is defined upon.
  339. # [18:12] <SteveZ> Rossen: the Inside can only be one.
  340. # [18:12] <Zakim> +Tantek
  341. # [18:12] <tantek> zakim, mute tantek
  342. # [18:12] <Zakim> Tantek should now be muted
  343. # [18:12] <SteveZ> DBaron: If the inisde is scrolled, what happens.
  344. # [18:13] <SteveZ> Rossen the layout is done and that result is scrolled, not relayed out
  345. # [18:13] <dbaron> s/the inside/the BFC on the inside/
  346. # [18:13] <SteveZ> PLinss: it makes sense for the implementation, but perhaps not for the user.
  347. # [18:14] <SteveZ> Tab: I am wiht Rossen, reflowing during scrolling could cause things to jump around
  348. # [18:14] <tantek> with fixed positioning, things change layout while you scroll
  349. # [18:14] <BradK> Maybe shape inside should be non-scrollable
  350. # [18:14] <Bert> <div style="shape-inside:circle(...)">Some text... <div style="overflow: scroll; height: 5em">Inner text..</div> more outer text...</div>
  351. # [18:14] <SteveZ> PLinss: When scrolling happens without re-layout, then things may overlap and become unreadable
  352. # [18:15] <SteveZ> FantasaiL For a circle you can make it work iwth re-layout, but not for arbitrary shape
  353. # [18:15] <fantasai> s/FantasaiL/fantasai:/
  354. # [18:16] <SteveZ> DBaron: Reason that Float does not affect a BFC is becasue of scrolling
  355. # [18:16] <SimonSapin> (glazou, still getting noise from me? I don’t hear it.)
  356. # [18:16] <dbaron> s/a BFC/things inside a BFC/
  357. # [18:16] * Joins: emalasky (~Adium@public.cloak)
  358. # [18:16] <SteveZ> PLinss: What else is going to change?
  359. # [18:16] <glazou> SimonSapin, nope all ok
  360. # [18:17] <SteveZ> Alan: Nothing really, just need to add a note to say that the wrapping context of the elements inside get the exclusion area added to them
  361. # [18:17] * Joins: koji (~koji@public.cloak)
  362. # [18:18] <SteveZ> Alan: Doing Shape Inside as an exclusion gives more flexibitily; can use the wrapping properties to control how the lines are affected
  363. # [18:18] <SteveZ> DBaron: in the Float way, the entire BFC is moved reather than the lines within it.
  364. # [18:19] <SteveZ> Alan: When you layout something inside only the lines are affected and BFCs are moved to avoid the collision
  365. # [18:20] <SteveZ> PLinss: If something is centered, and using the float model a BFC is moved, that would affect the centering point
  366. # [18:20] <SteveZ> Rossen: This does not happen with the Exclusion model
  367. # [18:22] <SteveZ> Rossen: Rossen: details of 2x2 grid in a circle shows Exclusions likely more straightforward
  368. # [18:23] <SteveZ> PLinss: I agree
  369. # [18:23] <Bert> <table style="shape-inside: circle(...)><tr><td>A1<td>A2<tr><td>B1<td>B2</table>
  370. # [18:23] <SteveZ> Bert: not clear on table example
  371. # [18:23] <SteveZ> Bert: what else can you do but shorten the lines of the content of each of the cells
  372. # [18:25] <SteveZ> Rossen: Table with a singel cell with overflow scroll and table has a shape inside of a rectangle with size of 50% of the table itself. Then how big is the table celll?
  373. # [18:25] <SteveZ> s/singel/single/
  374. # [18:26] <SteveZ> Rossen: with the Float model, cannot have a float that pushes the table cell one way or another, but with the Exclusion model we have a solution
  375. # [18:27] <SteveZ> Rossen: It is the requirement that the table cell, a BFC, must avoid the float and that becomes awkward.
  376. # [18:27] <SteveZ> Anton: I think Exlusions has to be the way to go,
  377. # [18:27] <SteveZ> PLinss: any objections to Exlusions model
  378. # [18:28] <SteveZ> RESOVLED: Exclusions model will be used in Shape Inside
  379. # [18:28] * antonp thinks that otherwise you push the float model into /anything/
  380. # [18:28] <smfr> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0684.html
  381. # [18:28] * Quits: dael (~djackson@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  382. # [18:28] <SimonSapin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0684.html
  383. # [18:28] <Bert> page size and user defined size in print dialog
  384. # [18:28] <glazou> s/RESOVLED/RESOLVED
  385. # [18:28] <SteveZ> Topic: page size and user defined size in print dialog
  386. # [18:28] * Joins: dael (~djackson@public.cloak)
  387. # [18:29] <SteveZ> SimonS: User want to choose based on what is in the printer. What do we do when user and author have conflicting choices?
  388. # [18:30] <SteveZ> Fantasai: Text in Page using !important rules to handle this
  389. # [18:30] <SteveZ> Glazou: this is more than page size; it is also about headers and footers and that ismore complex
  390. # [18:31] <fantasai> fantasai: User prefs can be expressed through @page rule in user style sheet
  391. # [18:31] <SteveZ> Glazou: this is an old issue.
  392. # [18:31] <fantasai> fantasai: CSS3 Paged Media says what to do if the specified size doesn't match what is available in the printer
  393. # [18:31] <SteveZ> Glazou: this problem arises when printing PDF docs, say legal ones, on which you do not want to print headers and footers
  394. # [18:31] <fantasai> fantasai: Agree there's an issue on headers/footers
  395. # [18:32] <SteveZ> SimonS: These are two different issues: there is a proposal to allow user to choose whether or not to print system headers
  396. # [18:33] <SteveZ> Glazou: In Firefox, all the settings for the print dialog are in the UI, not from CSS.
  397. # [18:33] <SteveZ> DBaron: OS print dialogs are different on different systems
  398. # [18:33] <fantasai> SimonS: There is a proposal on mailing list to not print UA headers/footers if author has specified headers/footers
  399. # [18:34] <SteveZ> Glazou: what are you asking for? a resolution to say the document settings should always override user settings?
  400. # [18:35] <SteveZ> Fantasai: the Cascade is the way that we control this in general, this does not work to headers and footers because there are 16 boxes to control
  401. # [18:35] <SteveZ> SimonS: this should be handled by a user style sheet?
  402. # [18:36] <SteveZ> Fantasai: yes
  403. # [18:36] <SteveZ> SimonS: That would work
  404. # [18:36] <SteveZ> Glazou: This depends on the OS print mechanism
  405. # [18:37] <SteveZ> Fantasai: Scaling to fit is already spec'd; it depends on being able to find the local paper size
  406. # [18:37] <SteveZ> Fantasai: this should already be in CSS2.1
  407. # [18:37] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/cascade.html#cascade
  408. # [18:38] <SteveZ> RESOLVED: use the cascade for page size
  409. # [18:39] <fantasai> <add in fantasai's cascading margin boxes idea>
  410. # [18:39] <SteveZ> Topic: Flexbox
  411. # [18:39] * Joins: plh2 (plehegar@public.cloak)
  412. # [18:39] <glazou> url?
  413. # [18:39] <SimonSapin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0707.html
  414. # [18:39] * krit New renaming in Flexbox?
  415. # [18:40] * sgalineau until pseudo stacking contexts get defined I'll call them Bob
  416. # [18:40] <glazou> sgalineau, at least that's a palindrome :-)
  417. # [18:40] <SteveZ> Tab: Flex itmes painting atomicly decided in July. But thinking about it more. we should make flex items, and grid items paint atomicly
  418. # [18:41] <fantasai> and table cells
  419. # [18:41] <SimonSapin> Do we have a level 3 module that defines stacking contexts?
  420. # [18:41] <fantasai> (We made them not atomic, because table cells aren't atomic.)
  421. # [18:41] * sgalineau glazou, until i rename them, yes
  422. # [18:41] <fantasai> SimonSapin: positioning
  423. # [18:41] <fantasai> I think
  424. # [18:41] <SteveZ> Tab: the only way to tell whether they paint like table-cells or atomically is to move a float outside the box and then back in.
  425. # [18:41] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  426. # [18:42] <SteveZ> Tab: in this case the float is between the content and the background in a table-cell and over or under both in the atomic version
  427. # [18:43] <SteveZ> Tab: Table-cells become a pseudo-stacking context, not a full stacking context
  428. # [18:43] <SteveZ> Desire is to make this change, retroactively, in CSS2.1
  429. # [18:44] <SteveZ> Note CSS2.1 already has changes that require a PER to update the spec
  430. # [18:45] <tantek> I agree with making this an errata to 2.1
  431. # [18:45] <SteveZ> Tab: It might be OK to say that, even if table-cells do not change, all future ones will be pseudo-stacking contexts
  432. # [18:45] <SteveZ> Anton: We can do this of flexbox and grid, even without making the change to table-cells
  433. # [18:46] <SteveZ> Fantasai; the reason for copying table-cells in July was "consistencly" and no one had a reason for breaking that. We now have such an argument
  434. # [18:46] <SteveZ> Tab: Grid really wants ot be atomic because Grid does a lot of overlapping
  435. # [18:47] <SteveZ> Tab: any objection to making Flexbox pseudo-staking contexts?
  436. # [18:47] <SteveZ> PLinss, Anton: not sure
  437. # [18:47] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Jul/0265.html
  438. # [18:47] <glazou> Zakim, mute glazou
  439. # [18:47] <Zakim> glazou should now be muted
  440. # [18:48] <glazou> Zakim, unmute glazou
  441. # [18:48] <Zakim> glazou should no longer be muted
  442. # [18:48] <SteveZ> Fantasai: noted that Anton argued for pseudo-stacking context in July
  443. # [18:49] <SteveZ> PLinss: how about separating the foregrounds and backgrounds and paint each separately
  444. # [18:49] * sgalineau 'almost absolutely not': new favorite tab catch phrase
  445. # [18:49] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
  446. # [18:50] <SteveZ> Tab: no, for grid items if you put an item on top of another you want the background of the top item to obscure the lower one.
  447. # [18:50] <Zakim> +SimonSapin
  448. # [18:50] <dbaron> Zakim, mute SimonSapin
  449. # [18:50] <Zakim> SimonSapin should now be muted
  450. # [18:50] <SteveZ> PLinss: might want to add a switch to interleave the backgrounds
  451. # [18:50] <glazou> SimonSapin, worse than before :(
  452. # [18:50] <SimonSapin> sorry :/
  453. # [18:51] <SteveZ> PLinss: whether this change affects tables is up to the vendors and the degree of compatibiity impact
  454. # [18:52] <SteveZ> Tab: Google thinks this is probably OK to change and DBaron seems to believe so also
  455. # [18:52] <SteveZ> RESOLVED: make table-cell, flex item and grid item atomic
  456. # [18:53] <antonp> atomic == /pseudo/-stacking context
  457. # [18:53] <SteveZ> atomic means "pseudo-stacking context"
  458. # [18:53] <SteveZ> Topic: Images
  459. # [18:53] <smfr> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0750.html
  460. # [18:53] <SteveZ> Tab: image rendering property from SVG with added properties
  461. # [18:54] <SteveZ> Tab: left in the "auto" keyword which does smoothing
  462. # [18:55] <SteveZ> Tab: SimonF has asked for explicity "smooth" keyword and have "auto" mean do what UI want to do to get fast rendering
  463. # [18:56] <SteveZ> DBaron: Scaling up and down often has different behavior and this needs to be consider in the spec and in testing
  464. # [18:57] <SteveZ> Optimize quality maps to "smooth" and optimize speed maps to "auto'
  465. # [18:57] <SteveZ> Tab: How low can you go an be considered optimizing quality? do you need to go bi-cubic
  466. # [18:58] <SteveZ> Tab: if an animation running with "smooth" what should you do to maintain quality?
  467. # [18:58] <SteveZ> Tab: saying, "it does not degrade" is too fuzzy for me.
  468. # [18:59] <SteveZ> SimonF: the UA will not degrade image quality
  469. # [18:59] <SteveZ> Tab: but, it may degrade other aspects (eg frame rates) of the animation
  470. # [18:59] <SteveZ> Tab: I am happy to add this
  471. # [19:00] <SteveZ> Bert: Is this too simple. Not discussing frame rate seem to be too restrictive
  472. # [19:01] <SteveZ> Tab: you should specify "auto" which tries to keep up the frame rate (and degrade image quality)
  473. # [19:02] <Zakim> -fantasai
  474. # [19:02] <Bert> (No objections, just not sure I understand why you want smooth ever.)
  475. # [19:02] <Zakim> -Stearns
  476. # [19:03] <Zakim> -smfr
  477. # [19:03] <Zakim> -glazou
  478. # [19:03] <Zakim> -hober
  479. # [19:03] <Zakim> -nvdbleek
  480. # [19:03] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aaa]
  481. # [19:03] <SteveZ> SimonF: Do not want to add frame rate in explicity because there are other factors that need to be considered as well
  482. # [19:03] <Zakim> -plinss
  483. # [19:03] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
  484. # [19:03] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aa]
  485. # [19:03] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  486. # [19:03] <Zakim> -dbaron
  487. # [19:03] <Zakim> -Tab_Atkins
  488. # [19:03] <Zakim> -Tantek
  489. # [19:03] <Zakim> -antonp
  490. # [19:03] <Zakim> -rhauck
  491. # [19:03] <Zakim> -BradK
  492. # [19:03] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  493. # [19:03] <Zakim> -djackson
  494. # [19:03] <Zakim> -Bert
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  497. # [19:03] <Zakim> -jdovey
  498. # [19:03] <Zakim> -??P44
  499. # [19:03] <Zakim> -sgalineau
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  503. # [19:03] <SteveZ> SteveZ: so it amounts to if you want frame rate to have priority say, "auto" and if you want image quality to have priority say, "smooth"
  504. # [19:03] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  505. # [19:04] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  506. # [19:04] <Zakim> Attendees were rhauck, plinss, krit, djackson, sgalineau, glazou, fantasai, antonp, SimonSapin, Stearns, SteveZ, dbaron, jdovey, hober, smfr, BradK, Rossen, [Microsoft],
  507. # [19:04] <Zakim> ... JohnJansen, Bert, arronei, MaRakow, nvdbleek, Tab_Atkins, Tantek
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  511. # [19:04] <SteveZ> rrsagent, make minutes
  512. # [19:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/03-css-minutes.html SteveZ
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  562. # [21:30] <raz> hi!
  563. # [21:30] <raz> I have sent a mail to www-style-request@w3.org a couple of weeks ago and got an automated reply back saying that I needed manual approval
  564. # [21:33] <Ms2ger> plh, would that be something you know about?
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  566. # [21:33] <raz> it suggested to ask the mailing list maintainer if the mail didn't get approved - is this the right place to ask?
  567. # [21:34] <fantasai> raz: Bert would know
  568. # [21:35] <fantasai> raz: bert@w3.org
  569. # [21:35] <raz> fantasai: thank you, should I send an email there?
  570. # [21:36] <fantasai> raz: IIRC, if you're subscribed to www-style, you won't need approval to send mail there. But you want to send to www-style@, not www-style-request@. www-style-request@ is for subscribing/unsubscribing
  571. # [21:36] <fantasai> raz: Yeah, he's the list moderator
  572. # [21:38] <raz> fantasai: my mistake, I sent the mail to the correct address (www-style@w3.org), but copy/pasted the wrong one (www-style-request@w3.org)
  573. # [21:38] <raz> will send him an email then, thank you!
  574. # [21:39] <fantasai> np!
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  576. # [21:41] <plh> raz, couldn't locate anything obvious in our systems
  577. # [21:45] <raz> plh: do you mean that my mail has either been approved already or it disappeared/never got there? :)
  578. # [21:47] <raz> plh: are you Bert? mind if I forward you the email I received from www-style-request@w3.org, maybe I've just done something wrong
  579. # [21:48] <plh> I mean, I didn't find traces of it. What was the subject of your email?
  580. # [21:48] <Ms2ger> raz, no, Bert is Bert :)
  581. # [21:48] <plh> and no, I'm not Bert, I can still help you :)
  582. # [21:49] <raz> plh: ok :) the subject is: "[selectors4] siblings and pseudo-elements"
  583. # [21:53] <plh> From dario...@gmail.com Fri Mar 22 13:22:53 2013
  584. # [21:53] <raz> that's the one!
  585. # [21:53] <plh> ok, so Bert has it in his inbox. it's waiting on his moderation
  586. # [21:55] <plh> sending an email to bert@w3.org, pinging him, should do the trick
  587. # [21:57] <raz> plh: I'll do that, thank you for checking! :)
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  594. # [22:28] <krit> fantasai: ping
  595. # [22:31] <fantasai> krit: pong
  596. # [22:31] <krit> fantasai: Some values like <repeat-style> and <position> are either just specified by CSS3BG or partly by CSS3Val
  597. # [22:31] <krit> fantasai: Sorry, Hi first :)
  598. # [22:31] <krit> fantasai: should I still remove the defintion on Masking?
  599. # [22:31] <krit> fantasai: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/masking/index.html#mask-position0
  600. # [22:31] <krit> fantasai: as one example
  601. # [22:32] <TabAtkins_> Yes, please. Just refer to the other specs for those tersm.
  602. # [22:32] <fantasai> krit: <position> should probably refer to css3-values
  603. # [22:32] <fantasai> krit: Yes, agree with Tab :)
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  605. # [22:32] <krit> TabAtkins_: I just fear that it is less clear for web authors...
  606. # [22:32] <krit> TabAtkins_: for implementers it is probably fine
  607. # [22:32] <fantasai> krit: As long as you're hyperlinking well, I think it should be fine
  608. # [22:33] <TabAtkins_> krit: Better to optimize for implementors and maintainability here.
  609. # [22:33] <TabAtkins_> And yes, hyperlink.
  610. # [22:33] <krit> TabAtkins_: Do you know why we did not want to use child() but used select() instead? https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/masking/index.html#the-mask-image
  611. # [22:34] <TabAtkins_> I don't remember. Birtles probably would.
  612. # [22:34] <krit> TabAtkins_: I thought it was because of the child keyword but not sure anymore
  613. # [22:35] <krit> TabAtkins_: fantasai: Another question to elements in CSS specs, how do we differ between elements and values? <image> to <image>
  614. # [22:36] <krit> TabAtkins_: fantasai: Both exist as value as well as element
  615. # [22:36] <TabAtkins_> It's clear from context there, and we always use terminology like "the <foo> element".
  616. # [22:36] <fantasai> I use <code>&lt;tagname&lt;</code> for elements
  617. # [22:36] <fantasai> And <var>&lt;type&gt;</var> for types
  618. # [22:36] <krit> TabAtkins_: I ususally write 'image' element, so could be the same
  619. # [22:37] <fantasai> krit: You have a slightly more complicated situation, because your spec defines elements, they're a first class citizen, not a thing only used for examples :)
  620. # [22:37] <krit> fantasai: I do as well, but the post processor transforms <var> to <code>
  621. # [22:37] <fantasai> o_O
  622. # [22:37] <fantasai> That seems inappropriate
  623. # [22:38] <TabAtkins_> lolwut
  624. # [22:38] <TabAtkins_> krit: Use a better processor.
  625. # [22:38] <krit> correction, <dfn> is transformed to <code>
  626. # [22:38] <fantasai> (Tab is advertising his own.)
  627. # [22:38] <hober> http://i.imgur.com/Q3cUg29.gif
  628. # [22:38] <TabAtkins_> lolwut
  629. # [22:38] <fantasai> um. That is really bad
  630. # [22:38] <fantasai> It should most definitely not do that
  631. # [22:38] <krit> hehe
  632. # [22:38] <TabAtkins_> That's the dumbest thing ever.
  633. # [22:38] <TabAtkins_> I blame heycam.
  634. # [22:39] <krit> TabAtkins_: ?
  635. # [22:39] <TabAtkins_> Isn't the processor heycam's?
  636. # [22:39] <krit> TabAtkins_: I meant postprocessor
  637. # [22:39] <TabAtkins_> Okay, I don't know what your workflow is apparently.
  638. # [22:40] <krit> TabAtkins_: however, the preprocessor indeed transforms it to code
  639. # [22:40] <krit> TabAtkins_: well, fantasai said that she uses <code> for elements anyway
  640. # [22:40] <krit> TabAtkins_: at least here there would be a consensus
  641. # [22:41] <TabAtkins_> No, you're misunderstanding.
  642. # [22:41] <krit> maybe
  643. # [22:41] <TabAtkins_> She uses <code> to refer to *instances* of elements.
  644. # [22:41] <TabAtkins_> We don't define any elements in CSS, but if we did, they'd be in <dfn>s like all the other definitions.
  645. # [22:41] <TabAtkins_> Probably <dfn><code>&lt;element></code></dfn>
  646. # [22:41] <krit> k
  647. # [22:42] <krit> fantasai: btw, Thank you very much for your detailed review so far!
  648. # [22:43] <fantasai> krit: You're welcome!
  649. # [22:43] <fantasai> krit: If you can respond to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2013AprJun/0005.html , that would help me with understanding what I'm reviewing better. ^_^
  650. # [22:44] <krit> fantasai: missed this mail :P Looking now...
  651. # [22:46] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Nov/0226.html
  652. # [22:46] <fantasai> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=31196
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  655. # [22:58] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Aug/0894.html
  656. # [22:59] <fantasai> TabAtkins_: http://www.w3.org/blog/CSS/2012/08/30/resolutions-53/
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The end :)