/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2013-07-17 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Jul 17 00:00:01 2013
# Session Ident: #css
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# [17:27] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/07/17-css-irc
# [17:27] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:27] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 37 minutes
# [17:27] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:27] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
# [17:27] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0425.html'
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# [17:40] <SimonSapin> do we have "fuzzy reftests" where up to some number of different pixels is acceptable?
# [17:41] <Ms2ger> Nope
# [17:42] <SimonSapin> :/
# [17:42] <SimonSapin> Should I add new tests in incoming or a submitted?
# [17:43] <SimonSapin> http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/contribute says submitted
# [17:44] <stearns> SimonSapin: incoming is your scratch space. submitted is for tests you think are ready
# [17:45] <SimonSapin> stearns: I have reftests passing in Gecko. I think they’re ready but I haven’t really been reviewed
# [17:45] <stearns> SimonSapin: submitted, then
# [17:47] <SimonSapin> they also test details that are not in the spec yet, some of of which don’t have a WG resolution yet
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# [17:54] <fantasai> SimonSapin: submitted is probably fine. Put the issues on the WG agenda
# [17:55] <SimonSapin> "Painting area and 'background-attachment: local'" is already on the agenda for today
# [17:56] <fantasai> didn't we figure it out already?
# [17:57] * fantasai just hasn't made the edits
# [17:57] <SimonSapin> fantasai: positioning yes
# [17:58] <SimonSapin> painting/clipping, there are two parts
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# [17:58] <SimonSapin> I think we have consensus that values of background-clip should represent the same rectangles as background-origin, ie. scroll with the content. (No WG resolution yet)
# [18:00] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [18:00] <Zakim> +??P5
# [18:00] <glazou> Zakim, ??P5 is me
# [18:00] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
# [18:00] <fantasai> I'm happy to say it's implied from the previous resolution. Doesn't make sense otherwise...
# [18:00] <SimonSapin> But I also proposed that if a background layer is attached to the scrolled content, it should be clipped like the scrolled content because of 'overflow'
# [18:00] <Zakim> +plinss
# [18:00] <SimonSapin> … and thus not paint below the border
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# [18:01] <SimonSapin> fantasai, see https://test.csswg.org/shepherd/testcase/attachment-local-clipping-color-6/spec/css-backgrounds-3/ and its ref
# [18:02] <Zakim> +??P19
# [18:02] <Zakim> +??P21
# [18:02] <glenn> zakim, ??p19 is me
# [18:02] <Zakim> +glenn; got it
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# [18:02] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P21 is me
# [18:02] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
# [18:02] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [18:02] <florian> Zakim, [IPcaller] has me
# [18:03] <Zakim> +florian; got it
# [18:03] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [18:03] <Rossen> zakim, microsoft has me
# [18:03] <Zakim> +Rossen; got it
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# [18:04] <nvdbleek> zakim, code?
# [18:04] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek
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# [18:04] <Zakim> + +34.93.192.aaaa
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# [18:04] <antonp> Zakim, aaaa is me
# [18:05] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
# [18:05] <leif> Zakim, I am ??P33
# [18:05] <Zakim> +leif; got it
# [18:05] <Zakim> + +1.610.324.aabb
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# [18:05] <leif> Zakim, mute me
# [18:05] <Zakim> leif was already muted, leif
# [18:05] <dael> zakim, aabb is me
# [18:05] <Zakim> +dael; got it
# [18:05] <nvdbleek> zakim, mute me
# [18:05] <Zakim> nvdbleek should now be muted
# [18:05] <Zakim> +Bert
# [18:05] * glazou is melting, 30°C+ here
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# [18:06] <Zakim> +fantasai
# [18:07] * ChrisL will be on mobile, tell me if its too noisy
# [18:07] <Zakim> +smfr
# [18:08] <Zakim> +Lea
# [18:08] <Zakim> +dbaron
# [18:09] <antonp> ScribeNick: antonp
# [18:09] * leaverou glazou: It gets that hot in France?!
# [18:09] <antonp> TOPIC: extra items
# [18:09] <glazou> leaverou, will be hotter later in the week and next week ; already 35+ in the south
# [18:09] <antonp> Rossen: A css-shapes issue I wanted to add, medium priority
# [18:09] <Zakim> + +33.6.03.00.aacc
# [18:09] <glazou> leaverou, had 42 a while ago in south-west
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# [18:10] * ChrisL yes its pretty hot in france
# [18:10] <antonp> TOPIC: Invited expert
# [18:10] <ChrisL> +1
# [18:10] <Bert> +1
# [18:10] <Zakim> + +1.212.318.aadd
# [18:10] <smfr> +1
# [18:10] <antonp> plinss: Lea will be leaving W3C, want to bring her back into the WG as an Invited Expert
# [18:10] <dbaron> +1
# [18:10] <florian> Florian: +1
# [18:10] <leaverou> :D
# [18:10] <SimonSapin> +1
# [18:10] <fantasai> +1
# [18:10] <shezbaig_wk> zakim, aadd is me
# [18:10] <Zakim> +shezbaig_wk; got it
# [18:10] <ChrisL> wb lea
# [18:10] <leaverou> thank you all so much!!!
# [18:10] <Rossen> ++
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# [18:11] <antonp> RESOLVED: Lea is back!!
# [18:11] <antonp> TOPIC: Paris F2F
# [18:11] * ChrisL +1 to wine tasting as well :)
# [18:11] <antonp> glazou: Dates etc? Please could Mozilla comment
# [18:11] <antonp> dbaron: OK
# [18:11] <antonp> TOPIC: Positioned Layout Status
# [18:12] <antonp> arronei: I'm still around ;-) Paying attention but also working on other things
# [18:12] * glazou thinks arronei is back because we discuss wine+cheese testing ;-)
# [18:13] <antonp> arronei: In a F2F about a year ago, we agreed to add Ted as an Editor, but I haven't seen any updates
# [18:13] <antonp> arronei: I'd prefer another editor to help me out
# [18:13] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
# [18:13] * glazou ChrisL, please send me an email so I can easily count attendees
# [18:13] <Zakim> -glenn
# [18:13] <antonp> .. This spec isn't going to be a priority for me
# [18:13] <MaRakow> Zakim, [Microsoft.a] is me
# [18:13] <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
# [18:13] <antonp> Rossen: The spec only has a couple of issues; can't we try to push it out of the door
# [18:14] <antonp> .. It contains a load of css21 stuff, plus a couple of other things worth reviewing and possibly moving to LC
# [18:14] <Zakim> +??P19
# [18:14] <glenn> zakim, ??p19 is me
# [18:14] <Zakim> +glenn; got it
# [18:14] <antonp> Rossen: Are you guys (smfr) still gonna work on position:Sticky?
# [18:14] <antonp> smfr: Yeah we're interested in that area, but not sure we'll be involved in speccing
# [18:14] <antonp> smfr: ...
# [18:15] <antonp> dbaron: He's an intern, will be around for a couple of months
# [18:15] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [18:15] <antonp> Rossen: Sounds like there's interest in Sticky, but not interest in the positioning spec!
# [18:15] <antonp> ...: if somebody provides content, we can get it into the positioning spec
# [18:15] <antonp> fantasai: propose that spec = css21 + sticky
# [18:16] <antonp> Rossen: That's pretty much what it already is
# [18:16] <antonp> fantasai: Tab and I could help out on the spec after the summer, maybe
# [18:16] <antonp> Rossen: Let's take up the Sticky conversation on the mailing list
# [18:16] <antonp> dbaron: sounds good
# [18:16] <antonp> TOPIC: Dropping default
# [18:16] <antonp> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0021.html
# [18:17] <antonp> fantasai: 'default' keyword doesn't have a good use case
# [18:17] <antonp> .. Places where it could help have other solutions possible
# [18:18] <glazou> +1 on the confusing name...
# [18:18] <antonp> .. Even if we go with the proposed "initial or inherit" definition of 'default', the word 'default' is a confusing name
# [18:18] <glenn> q+
# [18:18] * Zakim sees glenn on the speaker queue
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# [18:18] <antonp> .. Default style in CSSOM doesn't refer to "initial or inherit", it refers to something else, so again confusing.
# [18:19] <antonp> So first proposal is drop 'default
# [18:19] <antonp> Second is have a value called 'initial-or-inherit'
# [18:19] <antonp> florian: let's wait for use case before creating the keyword!
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# [18:19] <antonp> ChrisL: name sounds reasonable for what it is
# [18:19] <leaverou> florian++
# [18:20] <antonp> .. What authors really want is a way of saying "I wish I'd never set these rules" - and we don't havethat
# [18:20] <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
# [18:20] <koji> zakim, [ipcaller.a] is me
# [18:20] <Zakim> +koji; got it
# [18:20] <Zakim> +shezbaig_wk.a
# [18:20] <antonp> dbaron: the use case is a low-level thing. Sometimes amount to explaining how existing things work
# [18:20] <antonp> .. authors like reset stylesheets
# [18:21] <antonp> .. We introduced 'all' property, which only makes sense with this value
# [18:21] <plinss> ack glenn
# [18:21] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:21] <antonp> Glenn: TGML[?] uses: default is a generic font family name, so uses it as a keyword effectively
# [18:21] <antonp> fantasai: CSS spec reserves 'default'. In retrospect, maybe wasn't such a good idea
# [18:22] <plinss> s/TGML/TTML/
# [18:22] <ChrisL> s/TGML/TTML/
# [18:22] <antonp> florian: Calling it undeclared/reset avoids the issues we've been raising
# [18:22] <antonp> Rossen: "reset" is weird
# [18:22] <florian> s/undeclared/undeclare/
# [18:22] <Bert> q+ to say it seems 'all' is only useful with 'inherit-or-initial' and vice-versa. That suggests 'all' is maybe not a property at all.
# [18:22] * Zakim sees Bert on the speaker queue
# [18:22] <antonp> fantasai: Use case: the 'all' shorthand
# [18:22] * Zakim sees Bert, fantasai:, Use, case:, the, 'all', short on the speaker queue
# [18:22] <antonp> .. that's the use case that makes most sense
# [18:23] <antonp> Rossen: Sounds like an infrequent use case. The longer "inherit-or-initial" is more descriptive
# [18:23] <antonp> florian: It's a little ambiguous to me
# [18:23] <dbaron> s/only makes sense with this value/only makes sense with this value. I think if we drop this we should drop 'all'./
# [18:23] <antonp> florian: If you know cascade well, it might be obvious. Otherwise, you don't know what it's going to do!
# [18:23] <antonp> .. Hence prefer undeclared
# [18:23] <plinss> ack next
# [18:23] * Zakim sees Bert at the head of the speaker queue
# [18:23] <Zakim> Bert, you wanted to say it seems 'all' is only useful with 'inherit-or-initial' and vice-versa. That suggests 'all' is maybe not a property at all.
# [18:23] * Zakim sees fantasai:, Use, case:, the, 'all', short on the speaker queue
# [18:23] <plinss> ack next
# [18:23] * Zakim sees fantasai: at the head of the speaker queue
# [18:23] * Zakim sees Use, case:, the, 'all', short on the speaker queue
# [18:24] <antonp> Bert: Agreed that use case is 'all' property
# [18:24] <glenn> btw, 'default' wasn't a reserved keyword in CSS2 (1998) which was what TTML originally referenced
# [18:24] <antonp> .. so maybe think of that case as something other than a property, eg an @-rule
# [18:24] <Rossen> width: reset; - this is a bit weird
# [18:24] <plinss> q?
# [18:24] * Zakim sees Use, case:, the, 'all', short on the speaker queue
# [18:24] <fantasai> I guess, 'reset' for 'initial-or-inherit' and 'unset' for 'default', both useful for 'all'
# [18:24] <Rossen> width: unset
# [18:24] <antonp> .. Only useful with !important added, else you don't reset everything??
# [18:25] <antonp> antonp: I quite like 'unset'
# [18:25] <antonp> Rossen: +1
# [18:25] <antonp> fantasai: 'reset' is good for 'initial-or-inherit' I guess
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# [18:25] <antonp> Rossen: when you say "with reset" it sounds like a layout instruction rather than a cascaed instruction
# [18:25] <ChrisL> IS UNSET ALLOWED ON SHORTHANDS AND IF SO IS IT FULLY SPECIFIED?
# [18:25] <antonp> .. 'unset' doesn't suffer from that.
# [18:25] <ChrisL> oops caps
# [18:25] * glazou patiently waits for the unreset proposal in the future
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# [18:25] <leaverou> the good thing about all is that people already know it from transition-property
# [18:25] <fantasai> ChrisL, yes
# [18:25] <plinss> q=
# [18:25] * Zakim plinss, if you meant to query the queue, please say 'q?'; if you meant to replace the queue, please say 'queue= ...'
# [18:25] <plinss> queue=
# [18:25] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:25] <antonp> florian: +1 for unset
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# [18:26] <antonp> ChrisL: Is it allowed on shorthands, and is it fully specified
# [18:26] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-cascade/#inherit-initial
# [18:26] <antonp> fantasai: yes
# [18:26] <antonp> leaverou: Is 'unset' going to be a property?
# [18:27] <antonp> fantasai: no, a value
# [18:27] <antonp> fantasai: One concern: "all" shorthand, you might want the behaviour that's currently specified for 'default'
# [18:27] <antonp> .. you might want to say "Blow everything away but leave UA stylesheet intact"
# [18:27] * plh late regrets from me
# [18:27] <antonp> dbaron: That's sort of what you have with the new version of 'default'
# [18:28] <antonp> fantasai: yes, exactly
# [18:28] <antonp> fantasai: that's the only use case I can think of for 'default' that isn't handled well at the moment
# [18:28] <dbaron> original proposal: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2002OctDec/0191.html
# [18:28] <antonp> florian: Does "default" only leave UA and User stylesheets, or does it remove either/or of those?
# [18:29] <antonp> fantasai: It removes whichever stylesheet (user/author) you're in#
# [18:29] <antonp> fantasai: Dunno, maybe it's not needed
# [18:29] <antonp> fantasai: I haven't quite fully thought through
# [18:30] <antonp> dbaron: Concern about fiddling with the name: we've had it on the table for over 10 years and made it a reserved keyword in lots of places#
# [18:30] <dbaron> s/lots of/a bunch of/
# [18:30] <antonp> florian: we wouldn't be the first group to do that ;-)
# [18:30] <antonp> glazou: nor the first time the group has spent 10 years not doing something ;-)
# [18:30] <antonp> florian: I think "unset" is clear; I don't expect many fonts to be called that
# [18:31] <dbaron> dbaron: Though if the name is obscure enough, we'd probably be oke.
# [18:31] <antonp> (switch order of dbaron and florian's comments)
# [18:31] <antonp> glazou: Will implementors implement it in the timeframe of PR?
# [18:31] <antonp> fantasai: initial-or-inherit behaviour will be very straightforward
# [18:31] <antonp> dbaron: +1; an hour's work
# [18:32] <antonp> Bert: I don't think that's the right argument. Rather, how useful is this?
# [18:32] <antonp> fantasai: "all" shorthand is the most important use case, which isn't particularly important
# [18:32] <dbaron> I would object to dropping this value without dropping the 'all' shorthand as well.
# [18:33] <antonp> The only value which makes sense for "all" is "initial" and this. (inherit is useless)
# [18:33] <antonp> (fantasai said that ^^)
# [18:33] <antonp> (ie the above)
# [18:33] <dbaron> dbaron: I don't think 'all: inherit' is useless in the presence of things like 'display: contents'.
# [18:33] <antonp> fantasai: OK, /almost/ never useful ;-)
# [18:34] <antonp> dbaron: <explains>
# [18:35] <antonp> fantasai: as dbaron says, you need this value or something like it in order for "all" shorthand to be useful
# [18:35] <antonp> Bert: why does a property only have one useful value?
# [18:35] <antonp> fantasai: either don't set, or set it to initial which breaks everything, or you set it to this value which allows inherited properties to inherit
# [18:36] <antonp> Bert: dbaron's example: same as setting "all" to new keyword, it seems to me
# [18:36] <antonp> dbaron: That might be true if it has exactly one child, but a bit different if more than one
# [18:36] <antonp> Bert: Setting on element, 'display' value gets reset (becomes inline)
# [18:37] <fantasai> s/everything/inheritance/
# [18:37] <antonp> dbaron: I think that's not true in flexbox, grid
# [18:37] * leaverou wonders if all: initial sets all properties to their initial values, what's all’s initial value?
# [18:37] * fantasai it's a shorthand, doesn't have one
# [18:37] <antonp> Bert: should be in grid. Flexbox might be strange
# [18:37] * leaverou fantasai: ah, right, thanks
# [18:37] <antonp> florian: We seemed to like "unset"
# [18:37] <antonp> .. as a new name for "initial-or-inherit"
# [18:38] * dbaron has to drop off for a minute
# [18:38] <antonp> Bert: I think the name is fine, but I question the need for that value
# [18:38] <antonp> plinss: Do we drop "default"?
# [18:39] <antonp> fantasai: Proposal is to remove "default" and change the name of "initial-or-inherit" to "unset"
# [18:39] <antonp> fantasai: Taking the proposal in full, for "all" you don't have the option of saying "blow away my styles but leave UA styles intact"
# [18:39] <antonp> florian: In any case, you still have the !important playing around, right?
# [18:40] <antonp> .. so using that property in an author stylesheet would still leave !important user styles in place
# [18:40] <antonp> fantasai: correct
# [18:40] <antonp> fantasai: I'd like another week to think about this
# [18:40] <antonp> plinss: so revisit next week?
# [18:40] * dbaron is back
# [18:40] <antonp> .. OK.
# [18:41] <antonp> TOPIC: Grid auto-flow followup
# [18:41] <antonp> plinss: we had a resolution, Tab had a follow-up comment
# [18:41] <antonp> <Tab is on holiday>
# [18:41] <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0223.html
# [18:41] * Quits: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:41] * Joins: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak)
# [18:41] <antonp> plinss: e-mail about switch for dense vs sparse packing
# [18:42] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0226.html
# [18:42] <fantasai> propose to use tight or dense keyword (optional) in grid-auto-flow, if we want this
# [18:42] <antonp> Rossen: Based on their implementation, they've implemented 'dense' or are going to?
# [18:42] <antonp> fantasai: They've implemented dense packing for grid-auto-flow
# [18:42] <antonp> Rossen: HAving a switch shouldn't be a problem if the default is sparse
# [18:43] <antonp> fantasai: yeah
# [18:43] <antonp> fantasai: We can mark it at risk
# [18:43] <antonp> Rossen: I agree
# [18:43] <antonp> dbaron: Do we actually want this switch?
# [18:43] <antonp> Rossen: I'm not sure /we/ do. In fact we don't want to implement dense because we haven't heard any demand
# [18:43] <antonp> .. If chrome is implementing it I'm guessing they have use case
# [18:44] <antonp> .. Currently we're not interested in dense
# [18:44] <antonp> plinss: anybody else implementing this?
# [18:44] <antonp> <silence>
# [18:44] <antonp> plinss: OK so we add it at risk
# [18:45] <antonp> Rossen: Now, or we wait for Tab to make a case for it on the call?
# [18:45] <antonp> Rossen: I'm with dbaron: I want to hear a case, not introduce it and then remove it down the line
# [18:45] <antonp> plinss: OK, defer until Tab comes back
# [18:45] <antonp> fantasai: are people happy with proposed syntax if we /do/ add it?
# [18:46] <antonp> <various agreement>
# [18:46] <antonp> plinss: Noted that we like the syntax.
# [18:46] <antonp> TOPIC: css-backgrounds] Painting area and 'background-attachment: local'
# [18:46] <antonp> SimonSapin: Two parts in the proposal to discuss separately
# [18:47] <antonp> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jun/0276.html
# [18:47] <antonp> .. <explains issue>
# [18:48] * smfr would love to see some pictures
# [18:48] <antonp> Rossen: So is the summary, "scroll the clip the same way that you want to scroll the background, given that it's local"
# [18:48] <antonp> SimonSapin: yes
# [18:48] <SimonSapin> https://test.csswg.org/shepherd/testcase/attachment-local-clipping-color-6/spec/css-backgrounds-3/
# [18:48] <antonp> SimonSapin: I have some test cases
# [18:48] <fantasai> ACTION: fantasai add diagrams to this section
# [18:48] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:48] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [18:48] <trackbot> Created ACTION-568 - Add diagrams to this section [on Elika Etemad - due 2013-07-24].
# [18:48] <SimonSapin> https://test.csswg.org/shepherd/reference/attachment-local-clipping-color-6-ref/spec/css-backgrounds-3/
# [18:49] <antonp> .. <explains>
# [18:49] <antonp> .. It's the same argument as the recent change for background-origin, ie consistency
# [18:50] <antonp> Rossen: In your ref, the clip will /not/ apply in this case?
# [18:50] <antonp> SimonSapin: What do you mean?
# [18:50] <Rossen> https://test.csswg.org/shepherd/repository/49f0d56a1c4a98ee4fec497c29412d89179fc012/contributors/mozilla/submitted/css3-background/background-attachment-local/attachment-local-clipping-color-6.html
# [18:50] <antonp> Rossen: IS this the test case you were referring to?
# [18:50] <antonp> SimonSapin: yes
# [18:50] <antonp> Rossen: this one has a clipped circle
# [18:50] <antonp> SimonSapin: yes, there's overflow hidden
# [18:50] <antonp> .. Background-attachment: clip only has an impact when overflow is other that visible
# [18:51] * Quits: JohnJansen (~JohnJansen@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:51] <dbaron> SimonSapin: In this case when you scroll, the white part at the top scrolls away because it's part of the scrolled content.
# [18:51] <antonp> Rossen: You propose we scroll the clipped circle as well?
# [18:51] <antonp> SimonSapin: yes, that's the second part of my proposal
# [18:52] <antonp> fantasai: How about I make some spec edits for this, and then we review them and see if they make sense?
# [18:52] <antonp> SimonSapin: Works for me
# [18:52] <antonp> Rossen: So we're not accepting anything until we have the edit
# [18:53] <antonp> SimonSapin: Second part of proposal: overflow:hidden and attach background local, makes sense that background should be clipped
# [18:53] <antonp> <explains>
# [18:53] <antonp> SimonSapin: Should behave just like it was set on another element inside the overflow:hidden element, which is indeed how the ref was built
# [18:54] <antonp> smfr: I'm confused; we don't have any spec text which describes how rounded corners affect the appearance of backgrounds
# [18:54] <antonp> fantasai: yeah we do
# [18:54] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-background/#corner-clipping
# [18:54] <antonp> SimonSapin: I used rounded corners to make the test more obvious, but they're not necessary. If you have a border which isn't completely opaque
# [18:55] <antonp> dbaron: You seem to be asking to switch an option behaviour to a required behaviour
# [18:55] <antonp> SimonSapin: It should have something that implies the same but for a different reason
# [18:55] <dbaron> SimonSapin: It's more complicated with rounded corners; you really want two clips.
# [18:56] * Quits: israelh (~israelh@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [18:56] <antonp> fantasai: I'm gonna edit the spec, and your issue is whether or not hte background is allowed to paint into the border area or not. Spec currently allows it, some imps do it. You're proposing it not be allowed
# [18:56] <antonp> fantasai: I don't really have an opinion
# [18:57] <antonp> fantasai: It's a bit odd to have things outside of the scrollbar but scroll with the scrollbar
# [18:57] <fantasai> but doable, has been done
# [18:57] <antonp> SimonSapin: What is attached to the contents should be clipped with the contents. Everything is derived from that.
# [18:58] <antonp> Rossen: That will break a bunch of optimizations that people may have done for scrolling
# [18:58] <antonp> .. so it might not get much traction
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# [18:58] <antonp> .. For clipping ,and layering, inside of the scrollbar, for example, there may be optimizations when repainting
# [18:59] <antonp> .. If you allow to scroll outside, the optimizations are no longer valid
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# [18:59] <antonp> SimonSapin: don't you have the same problem with background-attachmnet:local, even without my proposal?
# [18:59] <antonp> fantasai: I think everyone is confused. Let's wait for the spec edits and then open an issue about whether the behaviour should be optional or required
# [18:59] <antonp> Bert: shouldn't it be to make the optional behaviour forbidden?
# [19:00] <antonp> fantasai: You're allowed to do two things. Only one should be allowed
# [19:00] <SimonSapin> https://test.csswg.org/shepherd/search/testcase/spec/css-backgrounds-3/load/t120/ attachment-* test
# [19:00] <antonp> Bert: not sure
# [19:00] <antonp> SimonSapin: ^ more tests, may help
# [19:01] <SimonSapin> SimonSapin: reftests. These are what *I think* should happen
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# [19:01] <antonp> plinss: ETA of edits, fantasai?
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# [19:01] <antonp> fantasai: I'll ping you when ready
# [19:01] <antonp> TOPIC: Rossen's shapes topic
# [19:01] <antonp> Rossen: applicability of shapes
# [19:01] <Rossen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0286.html
# [19:01] * Quits: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [19:01] <antonp> .. Alan made a couple of edits in the last round of edits for css-shapes
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# [19:02] <antonp> .. he restricted the applicability of what shape-outside is allowed to apply to, and he made it apply to floats only
# [19:02] <antonp> .. The restriction at hte moment looks very artificial
# [19:03] <antonp> .. He seems to agree with that, and said that he didn't want to take a normative reference to the exclusions spec. He didn't want hte specs tied
# [19:03] <antonp> Rossen: But I don't see why the restriction should be to floats and not include block-level block
# [19:03] <antonp> Rossen: if it applied to block-level block and implemented exclusions, can benefit
# [19:03] <antonp> dbaron: Say in the shapes spec applies to float
# [19:04] <dbaron> dbaron: ... and then say in the exclusions spec that it applies to more things
# [19:04] <antonp> .. and then say in the exclusions spec that that spec makes shapes apply to more thing
# [19:04] * glazou has another conf call starting now and has to leave ; bye people
# [19:04] <Zakim> -glazou
# [19:04] * leaverou bye glazou!
# [19:04] <antonp> dbaron: I think that's perfectly reasonable in this set. Shapes without exclusions doesn't make sense for it to apply to anything other than floats
# [19:04] <antonp> Rossen: Sure, and visually there will be no effect
# [19:04] <antonp> .. If you apply a shape to a non-exclusion, nothing will be visually different
# [19:05] <antonp> .. IF you want to see the effect, you have to apply it to exclusions
# [19:05] <Bert> q+ to suggest a note in the shapes spec to say that in the future, shapes may apply to more than floats.
# [19:05] * Zakim sees Bert on the speaker queue
# [19:05] <antonp> Rossen: It applies to block-level blocks, and if it happens to be an exclusion you'll see an effect
# [19:05] <antonp> dbaron: But the thing only applies to floats or exclusions!
# [19:05] * smfr gtg
# [19:06] <Zakim> -smfr
# [19:06] * Parts: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (smfr)
# [19:06] <antonp> szilles: are you arguing over the difference between "Applies to" and "affects"
# [19:06] <antonp> dbaron: we often try to write the "Applies to" line in that way
# [19:06] <plinss> ack next
# [19:06] * Zakim sees Bert at the head of the speaker queue
# [19:06] <Zakim> Bert, you wanted to suggest a note in the shapes spec to say that in the future, shapes may apply to more than floats.
# [19:06] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:07] <antonp> Bert: Applies To line should only apply to things that actually exist. A note could say that the applicability can be extended later
# [19:07] <antonp> .. It's common to comment that things are expected to have wider applicability in the future
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# [19:07] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [19:08] <antonp> s/Bert,/Bert:/
# [19:08] <antonp> Rossen: as long as we're not excluding exclusions from applicability, I can live with that
# [19:08] <Zakim> -nvdbleek
# [19:08] <antonp> dbaron: IIUC then I'm ok with that
# [19:08] * antonp thanks dbaron for scribing help!
# [19:08] <Zakim> - +33.6.03.00.aacc
# [19:08] <Zakim> -dael
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# [19:08] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [19:08] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [19:08] <Zakim> -Lea
# [19:08] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [19:08] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [19:08] <Zakim> -antonp
# [19:08] <Zakim> -plinss
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# [19:09] <Zakim> -glenn
# [19:09] <Zakim> -koji
# [19:09] <Zakim> -Bert
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# [19:09] <Zakim> -MaRakow
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# [19:09] <stearns> (just got out of my other meeting) Bert: the shapes draft does have a note mentioning that shapes will be extended later to exclusions
# [19:10] <Zakim> -shezbaig_wk
# [19:10] <Zakim> -leif
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# [19:23] <dbaron> SimonSapin, btw, your audio quality wasn't very good during the telecon today, which I think contributed to the confusion
# [19:25] <leaverou> yup, what dbaron said. I wanted to participate in that discussion, but could barely understand what Simon was saying
# [19:27] <Zakim> -shezbaig_wk.a
# [19:27] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
# [19:27] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:27] <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, plinss, glenn, SimonSapin, florian, Rossen, +34.93.192.aaaa, antonp, leif, +1.610.324.aabb, nvdbleek, dael, Bert, fantasai, smfr, Lea, dbaron,
# [19:27] <Zakim> ... +33.6.03.00.aacc, +1.212.318.aadd, shezbaig_wk, [Microsoft], MaRakow, SteveZ, [IPcaller], koji
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# [20:07] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:23] <SimonSapin> dbaron, leaverou: weird I got one of those special purpose headsets
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# [21:10] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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# [23:06] <fantasai> Bert: is counter-styles set to publish on Thursday?
# [23:06] * fantasai forgot to ask earlier
# [23:07] <Bert> Hi Fantasai, yes, everything is ready. The webmaster will do the rest tomorrow.
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# [23:14] <fantasai> Bert: great, thanks!
# [23:15] * fantasai goes back to putting flexbox issues into some kind of tracking system
# [23:27] <fantasai> oh, right, the DoC
# [23:27] <fantasai> that's where they're tracked
# [23:29] <fantasai> Bert: btw, can you update the erratum for bug 15392 as resolved in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0201.html ?
# [23:29] <fantasai> Bert: we have a dependency on that to close an issue in Flexbox...
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# Session Close: Thu Jul 18 00:00:00 2013

The end :)