/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2013-10-09 / end

Options:

# Session Start: Wed Oct 09 00:00:00 2013
# Session Ident: #css
# [00:05] * Quits: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [00:05] * Joins: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak)
# [00:12] * Quits: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:26] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
# [00:36] * Quits: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [00:36] * Joins: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak)
# [00:43] <TabAtkins> stearns: First part of the index changes now live: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox/#index
# [00:43] <stearns> still, pretty quick turnaround
# [15:20] * Joins: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak)
# [15:46] * Joins: kawabata2 (~kawabata@public.cloak)
# [15:48] * Joins: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
# [16:14] * Quits: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [16:23] * Joins: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak)
# [16:28] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak) ("")
# [16:48] * Quits: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
# [16:52] * Joins: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [16:59] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak) ("bbl")
# [17:01] * Joins: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak)
# [17:07] * Quits: kawabata2 (~kawabata@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:08] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [17:08] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [17:15] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:16] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
# [17:18] * Joins: kawabata2 (~kawabata@public.cloak)
# [17:24] * Quits: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [17:25] * Quits: teoli_ (~teoli@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [17:25] * Joins: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak)
# [17:25] * Joins: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
# [17:31] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak)
# [17:33] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [17:38] * Joins: jet (~junglecode@public.cloak)
# [17:38] * Quits: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [17:39] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [17:47] * Joins: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak)
# [17:48] * Joins: dael (~dael@public.cloak)
# [17:48] * Quits: michou (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [17:49] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:51] * Quits: nvdbleek (~nvdbleek@public.cloak) (nvdbleek)
# [17:54] * Joins: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak)
# [17:54] <@plinss> rrsagent, make logs public
# [17:54] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, plinss
# [17:54] * Joins: michou (~mibalan@public.cloak)
# [17:54] <@plinss> zakim, this will be style
# [17:54] <Zakim> ok, plinss, I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM already started
# [17:55] * Joins: sgalineau (~sgalineau@public.cloak)
# [17:55] * plinss changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Oct/0271.html'
# [17:55] * Joins: krit (~krit@public.cloak)
# [17:55] * Quits: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [17:56] <Zakim> +plinss
# [17:56] * Joins: jerenkrantz (~jerenkrantz@public.cloak)
# [17:56] <Zakim> + +1.610.324.aaaa
# [17:56] <dael> zakim, aaaa is me
# [17:56] <Zakim> +dael; got it
# [17:56] * Joins: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [17:56] <Zakim> +krit
# [17:56] <Zakim> +glenn
# [17:57] <@plinss> dael: http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/info/name.php3
# [17:57] * Joins: cabanier (~cabanier@public.cloak)
# [17:58] <dael> plinss: Thank you!
# [17:58] <Zakim> +dauwhe
# [17:58] <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aabb
# [17:59] <rhauck> Zakim, aabb is me
# [17:59] <Zakim> +rhauck; got it
# [17:59] <Zakim> + +1.212.318.aacc
# [17:59] <jerenkrantz> zakim, aacc is me
# [17:59] <Zakim> +jerenkrantz; got it
# [17:59] <Zakim> -[Adobe]
# [17:59] <Zakim> + +1.206.675.aadd
# [17:59] <Zakim> +[Adobe]
# [17:59] * Joins: oyvind (~oyvinds@public.cloak)
# [18:00] <dael> ScribeNick: dael
# [18:00] <Zakim> + +1.619.846.aaee
# [18:00] <Zakim> +Stearns
# [18:00] * Joins: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak)
# [18:01] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak)
# [18:01] <Zakim> +smfr
# [18:01] <Zakim> +??P62
# [18:01] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P62 is me
# [18:01] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
# [18:01] <Zakim> + +93192aaff
# [18:01] <antonp> Zakim, aaff is me
# [18:01] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
# [18:02] <Zakim> +??P69
# [18:02] <jdaggett> zakim, p69 is me
# [18:02] <Zakim> sorry, jdaggett, I do not recognize a party named 'p69'
# [18:02] <jdaggett> zakim, ??p69 is me
# [18:02] <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
# [18:02] * Joins: c_palmer (~c_palmer@public.cloak)
# [18:02] <Zakim> +Bert
# [18:02] <Zakim> +jerenkrantz.a
# [18:03] <c_palmer> Zakim, jerenkrantz.a is me
# [18:03] <michou> how do I make Zakim know that what he currently recognizes as +[Adobe] should actually be miChou ?
# [18:03] <Zakim> +c_palmer; got it
# [18:03] <SimonSapin> Zakim, [Adobe] has michou
# [18:03] <Zakim> +michou; got it
# [18:03] * michou thanks SimonSapin :)
# [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.520.280.aagg
# [18:04] <SimonSapin> michou, I think your mike is close to your keyboard
# [18:04] <bkardell> zakin: +1.520.280 is me
# [18:04] <dael> plinss: Let's get started
# [18:04] <dael> plinss: Still expecting a few more people
# [18:04] <bkardell> zakim: +1.520.280 is me
# [18:04] <dael> plinss: Agenda?
# [18:05] <dael> ???: Editing CSS Sytle Attr. spec
# [18:05] * Joins: florian (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [18:05] <dael> plinss: Let's start there
# [18:05] <SimonSapin> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013JulSep/0307.html
# [18:05] <stearns> s/???/SimonSapin/
# [18:05] <@plinss> s/???/SimonSapin/
# [18:05] <Zakim> +fantasai
# [18:05] <dael> SimonSapin: We agreed to have some changes in syntax spec
# [18:05] <dael> SimonSapin: we're talking about everthing CSS 2.1
# [18:05] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [18:05] <dael> SimonSapin: updates, recc.
# [18:05] * plh zakim, call plh-mobile
# [18:05] * Zakim ok, plh; the call is being made
# [18:05] <Zakim> +Plh
# [18:05] <dael> SimonSapin: That should effect style attr spc
# [18:06] <dael> SimonSapin: according to fantasai we need an edit
# [18:06] * Joins: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak)
# [18:06] <Zakim> +??P89
# [18:06] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [18:06] <SimonSapin> s/edit/errata/
# [18:06] <dael> SimonSapin: I'd like to know if this spec needs another rec or if I can edit it
# [18:06] <Rossen_> zakim, microsoft has me
# [18:06] <Zakim> +Rossen_; got it
# [18:06] <dael> plinss: Taking a look
# [18:06] * krit poor Rossen_
# [18:06] <dael> plinss: Is it only the generated version?
# [18:06] <dael> plinss: Bert, are you on the call?
# [18:07] <Rossen_> ?
# [18:07] <dael> plinss: Apperently not
# [18:07] * Bert you can't hear me, it seems :-( Will redial.
# [18:07] <dael> SimonSapin: I'm sorry it is in the repository, I expecetd it not to be
# [18:07] <dael> SimonSapin: I can work from that
# [18:07] <Zakim> -Bert
# [18:07] <florian> Zakim, ??P89 is me
# [18:07] <Zakim> +florian; got it
# [18:07] <dael> SimonSapin: My q is how do i make an errata?
# [18:07] <Zakim> +dbaron
# [18:07] * plh wonders if we can talk about https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013OctDec/0061.html today
# [18:07] <dael> fantasai: Bert need to do the errata
# [18:07] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
# [18:07] <Zakim> +Bert
# [18:08] <MaRakow> Zakim, [Microsoft.a] is me
# [18:08] <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
# [18:08] <dael> fantasai: b/c has has access on the CSS server
# [18:08] <dael> fantasai: you need to put the edits in and highlight like Bert has done with other changes
# [18:08] <dael> plinss: Bert, you back?
# [18:09] <dael> Bert: You talking about errata?
# [18:09] <dael> Bert: Tell me what it is an I'll put it in
# [18:09] <dael> SimonSapin: It's about errors in style attr. to maybe allow attr. in the future
# [18:09] <dael> SimonSapin: I can make edits. What format?
# [18:09] <dael> Bert: If you make a patch that's easiest
# [18:09] * Joins: israelh (~israelh@public.cloak)
# [18:09] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
# [18:09] <dael> Bert: I need to put it in changes and errata doc so format isn't important
# [18:10] <dael> SimonSapin: Okay, I'll do patch
# [18:10] <dael> plinss: I clarify, you're talking about hash rules?
# [18:10] <@plinss> s/allow attr./allow @rules/
# [18:10] <dael> SimonSapin: Not yet, but we're editing so we can add in the future
# [18:10] <plh> q+
# [18:10] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
# [18:10] <@plinss> s/hash/@rules/
# [18:10] <dael> SimonSapin: Thi sis the same as CSS 2.1
# [18:10] <SimonSapin> @page
# [18:11] * Quits: kawabata2 (~kawabata@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:11] <plh> q-
# [18:11] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:11] <dael> plinss: great, you and Bert will sort it out
# [18:11] <dael> Topic: CSS Masking
# [18:11] <krit> http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/masking/
# [18:11] <dael> plinss: krit, you wanted this to go to LC?
# [18:11] * Joins: leif1 (~lastorset@public.cloak)
# [18:11] * sgalineau KRIT WAKE UP
# [18:12] <dael> krit: CSS Masking at F2F asked for review
# [18:12] <dael> krit: got 3 responces
# [18:12] <dael> krit: 1 was select function
# [18:12] <dael> krit: lets you use compound to select elemets
# [18:12] <dael> ...: It was on ask risk I rmv for now
# [18:13] <dael> ...: 2nd was waht a fragment is and how we can use in CSS specefications
# [18:13] <dael> ...: answer on mail list
# [18:13] <dael> ...: last wasy clip()
# [18:13] <dael> ...:usually we have short hand and extended, for this we decided to use clip-patch
# [18:13] <dael> krit: fantasia thought it was confusing
# [18:13] <@plinss> s/clip-patch/clip-path/
# [18:13] <dael> ...: in the past we thought clip would have auto and shape
# [18:13] <dael> ...: a value just applies to an element
# [18:14] <dael> ...: patch has pecific shape
# [18:14] <Zakim> +??P104
# [18:14] <dael> ...: that can bet o any element
# [18:14] <leif1> Zakim, ??P104 is me
# [18:14] <Zakim> +leif1; got it
# [18:14] <leif1> Zakim, mute me
# [18:14] <Zakim> leif1 should now be muted
# [18:14] <dael> ....: there was a question where we can have it address a specific function but need compat.
# [18:14] * leif1 sorry I'm late!
# [18:14] <dael> ...:we can't change this without a lot of issues
# [18:14] <dael> ...: I think it's a worse scenario
# [18:15] <dael> ...: that's one reason we didn't have clip-path and clip share
# [18:15] <dael> ...: another reason is auto is normal- clip
# [18:15] <dael> ...: so we'd need a new prop. for auto with clip as short hand for both
# [18:15] <dael> ...: i think we should keep discussing
# [18:15] <dael> ...: and use clip-path with clip manditory for impl.
# [18:15] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [18:16] <dael> ...: I don't know what she got before she dropped
# [18:16] <Zakim> +fantasai
# [18:16] <krit> fantasai: did you got everything?
# [18:16] <dael> smfr: I'm in favor of changing clip b/c it's so bizarre
# [18:16] <dael> krit: Did you get all I said?
# [18:16] <dael> fantasai: I think so, let me check
# [18:16] <antonp> s/changing/deprecating/
# [18:16] <dael> krit: I think we should keep what decision made on clip property
# [18:17] <dael> ...: and keep deprecating cip
# [18:17] * sgalineau can't ever recall seeing clip used in the wild
# [18:17] <dael> plinss: opinions?
# [18:17] <smfr> sgalineau: i have seen it once or twice
# [18:17] * sgalineau smfr, I bet you've seen half of all the uses!
# [18:17] <dael> smfr: If we keep what you have this is the last thing that needs discussed
# [18:18] <dael> antonp: should clip-path create stacking?
# [18:18] <dael> krit: yes
# [18:18] <dael> antonp: good
# [18:18] <antonp> s/antonp/smfr/ (twice)
# [18:18] <dael> plinss: I'm not hearing obj.
# [18:18] <SimonSapin> s/stacking/stacking context/
# [18:18] <dael> plinss: That's all the issues. Ready to go LC
# [18:18] <dael> krit: I'd say yes
# [18:18] <dael> plinss: Obj. to LC?
# [18:18] * Joins: emalasky (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [18:19] <dael> smfr: I think we'd still clarify how we take it to HMTL, but can do after LC
# [18:19] <dael> krit: your concern dep. of CSS2.1 so doesn't block masking
# [18:19] <dael> ...: I don't think we need to clarify more b/c ??? defines how frag. should work
# [18:19] <dael> smfr: Can we find that?
# [18:19] <dael> krit: I sent it to ML
# [18:19] <dbaron> s/smfr/SimonSapin/ (twice, I think)
# [18:19] <@plinss> s/???/css 2.1/
# [18:20] <dael> ???: I have a question, what goup should we target to get comments?
# [18:20] <dbaron> s/???/plh/
# [18:20] <dael> ???: Obv. not SVG
# [18:20] <dael> plh: Any other groups?
# [18:20] <dael> krit: I'll bring it to SVG and I'll send a review request to both public MLs
# [18:20] <dael> ???: Are we assuming that SVG is okay for LC?
# [18:20] <dael> krit: I need both WG to agree.
# [18:21] <dael> ???: What I'm hearing is we're not expecting outside those two groups
# [18:21] <@plinss> s/???/plh/
# [18:21] <dael> plh: So we sholdn't recieve other comments
# [18:21] <dael> plinss: How long of a LC period?
# [18:21] <dael> krit: what's usual?
# [18:21] <dael> plinss: 6 weeks
# [18:21] <dael> krit: I'm fine with 6
# [18:22] <dael> RESOLVED: CSS Masking to LC, 6 week period
# [18:22] <dael> plh: Who are we asking for feedback?
# [18:22] <dael> krit: SVG needs to do LC
# [18:22] <Bert> s/plh/bert/
# [18:22] <dael> plh: Do we need to ask others?
# [18:22] <dael> krit: Just SVG
# [18:22] <dael> Topic: DOMMatrix, DOMPoint and DOMPointLiteral
# [18:22] <dael> plinss: Any followup needed?
# [18:23] <dael> ??? There was conf. about do we accept ED
# [18:23] * Quits: jet (~junglecode@public.cloak) (jet)
# [18:23] <dael> ???; The conf was glazou thought there was resolution and there wasn't
# [18:23] <dael> plinss: And what was to split to own doc?
# [18:23] <dael> plinss: Any obj to doing that?
# [18:23] <krit> s/???;/krit:/
# [18:23] <dael> RESOLVED: split DomMatrix etc. to own draft
# [18:24] <dael> RESOLVED: CSS Masking to LC, 6 week period
# [18:24] <dael> Tpic: Writing Modes
# [18:24] <dael> jdaggett: I'm not sure how much we can get in w/o koji
# [18:24] <dael> jdaggett: What should we do? Wait?
# [18:25] <dael> ???: Keep on list?
# [18:25] <SimonSapin> s/???/rossen/
# [18:25] <dael> jdaggett: I think it's technical in nature, so better on list
# [18:25] <dael> Rossen_: Seems like it's going in circles on list
# [18:25] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [18:25] <dael> jdaggett: I think it would help if you could clarify on list where you said drop 5.1.1
# [18:25] <dael> jdaggett: Is that was you meant?
# [18:25] <Zakim> +fantasai
# [18:25] <dael> Rossen_: For whatever reason ML has been rej. e-mails
# [18:26] <dael> jdaggett: Your posts through now?
# [18:26] <dael> Rossen_: I hope so, just see one that went
# [18:26] <dael> Rossen_: Now there should be a reply to explain better
# [18:26] <dael> jdaggett: Okay, so I think I can respond on list
# [18:26] <dael> Rossen_: Let's keep it there for now, wait for next week if Koji there
# [18:27] <dael> jdaggett: I have a schedule to talk with him this week
# [18:27] <dael> fantasai: I think I can explain if I understand correctly
# [18:27] <dael> fantasai: Just to add summary
# [18:27] <dael> fantasai: If I understand issues areoung tr was unicode defined this characters in vertical should be repl. with alt glyph, if not sub with rotated org. glyph
# [18:28] <dael> fantasai: CSS spec right now allows 2 diff behaviours. One you typeset and apply sub. Doesn't matter if there is, you tried which is enough
# [18:28] <dael> fantasai: 2nd option is you check for sub and if not, you manually rotate
# [18:28] <dael> fantasai: obj from jdaggett, we should only allow one of these
# [18:28] <smfr> jdaggett: you are VERY quiet
# [18:28] <dael> jdaggett: Not my only obj. Just practically speaking, there's no reason for fallback
# [18:29] <dael> jdaggett: # of code poitns that are eff by fallback is in realm of 2 or 3 code points
# [18:29] <dael> jdaggett: my obj is that there's optional behaviour
# [18:29] <dael> jdaggett: and it's not practical to make it normative b/c it's not impt.
# [18:30] <dael> ???; I agree w/ jdaggett in part due to practicality
# [18:30] <dael> ???: It's not straightforward to see if it made sub or if it's realted to what you think it was
# [18:30] <stearns> s/???/glenn/
# [18:30] <dael> ???; Having to choose in user agent impl it could be impractical
# [18:31] * Quits: emalasky (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [18:31] <dael> fantasai: Those were the two obj and Koji's concern about not allow b/c there are impl that want fallback rotation and there are places where the fallback is impl
# [18:31] <dael> fantasai: So CSS would have to work harder to not rotate
# [18:31] <fantasai> is built into lower levels of the system
# [18:31] <dael> glenn: There 2nd part of Koji's feed back is the one that concerns me most
# [18:32] <dael> glenn: I'm wondering if we could raise the requirements so that once we've tried the execution is considered sucessful
# [18:32] <glenn> that wasn't me
# [18:32] <dael> fantasai: Generally we don't say what layer something is impl at
# [18:32] <antonp> s/glenn/florian/
# [18:32] <dael> fantasai: That's the summary of the issues.
# [18:32] <dael> fantasai: Koji also said Unicode doesn't want CSS to disallow what they're built in
# [18:33] <florian> s/there 2nd part/the second part/
# [18:33] <dael> jdaggett: On that point I wrote to Eric and his concussion was that UTC had a desire for req.
# [18:33] <dael> jdaggett: If you look at the wording they're talking about normative behavior
# [18:33] <dael> jdaggett: It's a character property that can be desplayed as a fallback, not req. no wording that says you have to
# [18:34] <dael> jdaggett: My arguement is that it's practical with other fonts that we should assume ??? that's what happened
# [18:34] <dael> glenn: I agree that we shouldnt disallow if someone wants to impl fallback
# [18:34] <dael> glenn: I would oppose lang. that prevents that
# [18:34] <Zakim> +SteveZ.a
# [18:34] <dael> hober: Purpose is introp so allowing optional decreases that
# [18:35] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [18:35] <dael> glenn: problem is fonts themselves are optional and I don't know how to reconcille that optionality
# [18:35] * Joins: jet (~junglecode@public.cloak)
# [18:35] <dael> fantasai: On interop, jdaggett has pointed out in real fonts this is an edge case that is rare and therefore introp isn't that important b/c won't fundimentally break a page
# [18:35] <glenn> s/fonts themselves/font support for specific features/
# [18:36] <dael> fantasai: will either get correct rendering or not, this allows better fallback
# [18:36] <dael> fantasai: nothing author would do different
# [18:36] <dael> fantasai: It's a small case and hard to run into
# [18:36] <dael> fantasai: also a case where optional we want is better then default
# [18:36] <dael> fantasai: Don't think introp is a problem and allowing diff behavior is worth diff in interop
# [18:36] <glenn> +1 re: fantasai's statement about interop being a non-issue
# [18:37] <dael> ???:That brings us back to rossen's proposal
# [18:37] <dael> ???:Not drop 2nd part since most of the time it's the same?
# [18:37] <dael> fantasai: Let me see paragraph, hang on
# [18:37] <Bert> q+ to ask if author has a way to force a glyph if the UA *doesn't* do what he wants?
# [18:37] * Zakim sees Bert on the speaker queue
# [18:37] <dael> jdaggett: Rossen is arguing that 2nd paragraph, 2nd sentance be dropped
# [18:37] <@plinss> s/???/sylvaing/
# [18:37] <dael> sylvaing: Most of the time the fonts are right so fine
# [18:38] <dael> jdaggett: I think if you put Tr into catagory above and treat as upright
# [18:38] * stearns jdaggett louder please
# [18:38] <fantasai> Bert, yes
# [18:38] <dael> jdaggett: in that para. the points that are UTR points and ?? points are treated as upright
# [18:38] <Bert> q-
# [18:38] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:38] <dael> ...:if you inc Tr code points, it's fine to remove 2nd part
# [18:38] * Bert thanks fantasai
# [18:39] <dael> jdaggett: You need normative behavior
# [18:39] <dael> fantasai: I think rmv paragraph makes it less clear
# [18:39] <dael> fantasai: Right now it's clear there are 2 behav. poss.
# [18:39] <dael> fantasai: I don't think removing sent. would improve
# [18:39] <dael> jdaggett: One concern is what we're def. creating abmiguity
# [18:40] <dael> jdaggett: the problem is I think that we leave ambiguiity if leave as is
# [18:40] <dael> jdaggett: It becomes no longer clear to font designers if they need Tr code poins or if can omit
# [18:40] <dael> jdaggett: That's abd signal to send
# [18:40] <bkardell> jdaggett: it's very hard to hear you
# [18:40] <dael> jdaggett: Well designed fonts alreay inc. alternates for rotation
# [18:41] <dael> jdaggett: All other fonts should converge.
# [18:41] <dael> ???: I don't htink it's a problem. Assumed plaform supported
# [18:41] <stearns> s/???/glenn/
# [18:41] <dael> ???: That doesn't prevent from using other systems.
# [18:41] <dael> glenn: I don't think there's a problem, agree with fantasai
# [18:41] <fantasai> glenn was giving example of shaping features etc.
# [18:41] <dael> glenn: There's no interop problem
# [18:42] <dael> glenn: There's already optional behavior because support for rotation is already optional
# [18:42] * dbaron thinks we're not succeeding at the bit about not having the discussion today
# [18:42] <dael> glenn: I think we're looking at this too much
# [18:42] <dael> jdaggett: If that's the case we should rmv sentence
# [18:42] <dael> glenn: Taking it out doesn't do anything and leaving it doesn't have harm. Pref. to leave it
# [18:42] <dael> jdaggett: To resolve this we need Koji to agree
# [18:42] * stearns the idea was to summarize the problem, which I think has been accomplished
# [18:42] <dael> jdaggett: part of problem is impl doing this, it's not clear why they're doing it
# [18:43] <dael> jdaggett: There hasn't been discussion about the fallback
# [18:43] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [18:43] * Rossen_ +1 to stearns
# [18:43] <dael> jdaggett: So I think we should wrap up here and do more with Koji on the list
# [18:43] * fantasai thinks we got a few important points here at the end
# [18:43] <dael> plinss: Is there specific feedback from Koji to help, or will we continue disucssion?
# [18:43] <dael> jdaggett: I think need to see if he's comfortable with modification
# [18:43] <dael> fantasai: What modification? rmv sentence?
# [18:44] <dael> jdaggett: rmv sentece with Tr in previous sentence
# [18:44] <dael> plinss: So you're okay with that if Koji is okay?
# [18:44] <dael> florian: I'm not sure asking this to Koji will help b/c he's not the only one that disagrees
# [18:44] <dael> plinss: Anyone else disagree not on call?
# [18:45] <dael> florian: He needs to be involved, but just getting him to agree won't resolve
# [18:45] <dael> plinss: My point is if everyone else is here we can work here without Koji
# [18:45] <dael> florian: What I can hear is glenn and jdaggett disagree
# [18:45] <dael> glenn: I'd rather leave the sentence
# [18:45] <dael> fantasai: Yes
# [18:45] <Zakim> - +1.520.280.aagg
# [18:45] <dael> plinss: That's your pref. but can live with?
# [18:45] <dael> glenn: That's my pref. but if Koji drops it, okay
# [18:45] <Zakim> -c_palmer
# [18:46] <dael> rossen I don't think he wants it in
# [18:46] <dael> fantasai: I think Koji can defer to unicode, but doesn't want must defer
# [18:46] <dael> plinss: Anyone disagree witht hat viewpoint?
# [18:46] <dael> plinss: So we have a solution and we need to confir with Koji
# [18:47] <dael> fantasai: proposal is defer to UTC50 and not say in our draft how to handle
# [18:47] <dael> glenn: I'm not sure that's a solution
# [18:47] <glenn> s/glenn/florian/
# [18:47] <dael> jdaggett: There's several proposals, not one
# [18:47] <dael> fantasai: I'm looking at Rossen_ and it defines U and not Tr
# [18:47] <dael> jdaggett: I think you need to add Tr to list
# [18:48] <dael> ???: I think we made that clear 10 minutes ago, that's what jdaggett said first and I agree
# [18:48] <dael> fantasai: That's what Koji opposes
# [18:48] <fantasai> s/???/Rossen/
# [18:48] <dael> plinss: Can someone sum where we are and put on e-mail?
# [18:48] <dael> fantasai: I think 3 things can do
# [18:48] <dael> fantasai: Rmv handling of Tr and not say how to doesn't make sense
# [18:48] <dael> fantasai: 1 leave as is, Tr can work 2 way and clarify fonts expected to proide glyphs
# [18:49] <dael> fantasai: 2 is rmv the option for fallback rotation and req. Tr to work like U
# [18:49] <dael> fantasai: 3 rmv any sentences ref. to how to typeset anything are refer to UTR50 and expect fill in details
# [18:49] * Quits: jet (~junglecode@public.cloak) (jet)
# [18:49] <dael> jdaggett: I think 3 is what we've been discussion. It's what Rossen_ posted on list
# [18:49] <Bert> s/are/and/
# [18:50] <dael> fantasai: That's #2
# [18:50] <dael> plinss: Can someone take actions to document on ML?
# [18:50] <dael> jdaggett: I think for each we need clear wording
# [18:50] <dael> Rossen_: Can you create a wiki?
# [18:50] <dael> jdaggett: Better on the list
# [18:50] <fantasai> s/Rossen_/Dirk/
# [18:50] <dael> plinss: Again, can someone take an action?
# [18:51] <dael> ACTION fantasai post options to list
# [18:51] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:51] <trackbot> Created ACTION-586 - Post options to list [on Elika Etemad - due 2013-10-16].
# [18:51] <dael> Rossen_: I'm not sure I understand ??? It doesn't say what you should be doing. Am I wrong?
# [18:51] * stearns jdaggett LOUDER
# [18:51] <dael> jdaggett: You're right. There's something that needs to connect the orientation classifications
# [18:51] <dael> jdaggett: If you look in spec you can find a whole paragraph
# [18:51] <florian> s/rossen/florian/
# [18:52] <dael> fantasai: For what it's worth, I don't like 3
# [18:52] <dael> fantasai: Given URT50 doesn't have details
# [18:52] <dael> plinss: Let's take it to the list
# [18:52] <dael> Topic: Shapes Syntax Issues
# [18:52] <florian> I am not sure I understand 3, because as far as I can tell, UTR50 merely describe the meaning of Tr, but does not describe what you should do.
# [18:52] <dael> astearns: We've gotten good feedback on shapes syntax
# [18:52] <dael> ...: almost all in current ED
# [18:53] <dael> ...: remaining is do we follow SVG attr. and specify positions using x and y
# [18:53] * Joins: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak)
# [18:53] <dbaron> I'm not clear on how (1) and (2) deal with whether implementations are (a) required (b) forbidden (c) neither required nor forbidden from doing fallback.
# [18:53] <dael> ...: or do we use CSS3 position syntax and more complicatied positions
# [18:53] <dael> ...: Benefits to both
# [18:53] <jdaggett> i think for all three proposals we need explicit wording changes
# [18:53] <dael> ...: SVG lets us have consistant shapes
# [18:53] <dael> ...: It's easy to translate between
# [18:54] <dael> ...: CSS position syntax would let you descript a gradient and a circle in basic syntax
# [18:54] <fantasai> dbaron, (1) means (c), (2) means (b)
# [18:54] <dael> ..: question is how we allow both approached
# [18:54] <dael> ...: that can be adding @ keyward. width and height @x,y
# [18:54] <florian> s/@/at/
# [18:54] <dael> ...: that lets us sub x and y for options in position syntax
# [18:54] <sgalineau> dbaron, I think #2 forbids fallback while #1 and #3 allow it.
# [18:54] <SimonSapin> s/@x, y/at x y/
# [18:55] <dael> ...: other choice is to add shape as a function name and arguements would have a css syntax compat way to desc everything CSS can desc.
# [18:55] <dael> ...: is that a fair summary fantasai
# [18:55] <dael> fantasai: Yes
# [18:55] <dael> fantasai: I wish I had a clear idea of what makes sense but I don't
# [18:55] <florian> dbaron, sgalineau, I think #2 forbids, #1 allows, and #3 does say
# [18:55] <dael> astearns: we can do both, add at keyword to add in future and put css syntax in new shape function
# [18:56] <dael> fantasai: on thing that's on my mind is we need to have shape functions compat with gradiatient so can us both
# [18:56] <sgalineau> florian, yes. #3 doesn't say which means it doesn't requires or forbid fallback. up to implementors.
# [18:56] <dael> fantasai: one disadvantage is if you want to place...the one confusing bit is %s
# [18:56] <dael> fantasai: now that I've been thinking gradient syntax treats position as center of shape
# [18:57] <dael> fantasai: for circle and elipses it doesn't matter how you do % because posistion in respect to box
# [18:57] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:57] <dael> astearns: it only matters for rectangle b/c you're describing a corner
# [18:57] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [18:57] <dael> fantasai: for concistancy, the rectangle should be like and eliplse b/c is same except border
# [18:57] * dbaron has to run, sorry
# [18:58] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [18:58] <dael> ???: I think it matters with SVG b/c shape syntax will be used for SVG
# [18:58] <dael> astearns: I think that ecourages new shape that deals with % in CSS wy and leaves exisiting to be compat with SVG
# [18:58] <Rossen_> s/???/krit
# [18:58] <dael> fantasai: Thing I'm dealing with is circle and eliplse is concsitant with SVG so new shape doesn't make sense for them
# [18:58] <Rossen_> s/???/krit/
# [18:59] <dael> fantasai: ONly place we have this issue is rectangle where SVG is different, top left corner
# [18:59] <dael> fantasai: Top left corner of the rectangle itself
# [18:59] <dael> ???; It's not always top left for SVG?
# [18:59] <dael> fantasai: Fo what becides a transform?
# [19:00] <dael> ???: For CSS you have top left, for SVG if you have a rectangle the coordinate space isn't top left
# [19:00] <dael> fantasai: I see
# [19:00] <dael> astearns: It's certainly not an issue with circle, but it makes sense to be consistant for all shapes so people using clip could still work
# [19:00] <dael> ...: Doens't make sense to move things over
# [19:00] <Zakim> -SteveZ.a
# [19:00] <dael> plinss: Top of hour, proposals to move forward?
# [19:01] <dael> fantasai: I want to think about krit's comments
# [19:01] * Joins: jet (~junglecode@public.cloak)
# [19:01] <dael> astearns: discuss more on mailing list
# [19:01] <Zakim> -jerenkrantz
# [19:01] <Zakim> - +1.206.675.aadd
# [19:01] <Zakim> - +1.619.846.aaee
# [19:01] <dael> plinss: Sounds good. Thank you everyone.
# [19:01] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [19:01] <Zakim> -glenn
# [19:01] <Zakim> -rhauck
# [19:01] <Zakim> -antonp
# [19:01] * Parts: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (smfr)
# [19:01] <Zakim> -[Adobe]
# [19:01] <Zakim> -Stearns
# [19:01] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [19:01] <Zakim> -MaRakow
# [19:01] <Zakim> -plinss
# [19:01] <Zakim> -leif1
# [19:01] <Zakim> -dauwhe
# [19:01] * Quits: jerenkrantz (~jerenkrantz@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:01] <dael> [Meeting ended]
# [19:01] * Quits: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:01] <Zakim> -dael
# [19:01] <Zakim> -florian
# [19:01] * Quits: israelh (~israelh@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:01] <Zakim> -Plh
# [19:01] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [19:01] <Zakim> -Bert
# [19:01] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
# [19:01] <Zakim> -krit
# [19:01] * Quits: dael (~dael@public.cloak) (dael)
# [19:01] <Zakim> -smfr
# [19:02] * Parts: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) (rhauck)
# [19:04] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [19:04] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:05] * Parts: leif1 (~lastorset@public.cloak) (leif1)
# [19:06] * Joins: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [19:06] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, jdaggett, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
# [19:06] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:06] <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, +1.610.324.aaaa, dael, krit, glenn, dauwhe, +1.415.832.aabb, rhauck, +1.212.318.aacc, jerenkrantz, +1.206.675.aadd, +1.619.846.aaee, Stearns, smfr,
# [19:06] <Zakim> ... SimonSapin, +93192aaff, antonp, jdaggett, Bert, c_palmer, michou, +1.520.280.aagg, fantasai, SteveZ, Plh, Rossen_, florian, dbaron, [Microsoft], MaRakow, leif1
# [19:07] * Quits: florian (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [19:21] * Quits: michou (~mibalan@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [19:26] * Parts: oyvind (~oyvinds@public.cloak) (oyvind)
# [19:28] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak) (jdaggett)
# [19:33] * Quits: sgalineau (~sgalineau@public.cloak) ("Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com")
# [19:36] * Quits: jet (~junglecode@public.cloak) (jet)
# [19:37] * Quits: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
# [19:50] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak) ("")
# [19:54] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak)
# [20:08] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [20:14] * Joins: emalasky (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [20:15] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:15] * Joins: jet (~junglecode@public.cloak)
# [20:23] * Quits: emalasky (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [20:29] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak)
# [20:39] * Joins: dholbert (~dholbert@public.cloak)
# [20:42] <dholbert> TabAtkins, hi! I think I like your updated proposal. Question, though, just for my understanding - is it equivalent to adding a special case to Step 5 of http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox/#resolve-flexible-lengths , where we'd use a different ratio ( = the flex grow factor) if the sum of the flex grow factors is < 1?
# [20:42] <TabAtkins> Maybe, but it gets complicated when you to deal with adjusting the flex grow factor to the new free space amount.
# [20:42] <TabAtkins> Rather than try and come up with an elegant way to do that, I reworded it.
# [20:42] * Quits: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [20:43] * Joins: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak)
# [20:43] <TabAtkins> In my example, you don't want the first item to end up 22.5px wide (since that's .2/.8=.25 of 90px, the new free space amount).
# [20:43] <dholbert> Hmm, OK. I'm wondering slightly because I prefer the idea of normalizing flex-grow factors (or ratios) rather than normalizing "space"
# [20:43] <dholbert> TabAtkins, [looking]
# [20:43] <TabAtkins> Nor do you want it to be 18px wide.
# [20:43] <TabAtkins> (.2 of 90px)
# [20:46] <dholbert> TabAtkins, hmm. What if the flex items had nonzero base sizes, though? wouldn't that mess this up a bit?
# [20:46] <TabAtkins> Nah, that'll all work the same.
# [20:46] <TabAtkins> I mean, a flex:.2 item won't be 20% of the total space, but that's what you're asking for when you start with a non-zero base size.
# [20:49] <dholbert> TabAtkins, OK, makes sense
# [20:50] * dholbert scribbles some more to continue convincing himself
# [20:50] <TabAtkins> Hehe, that's what I did. I had two version of the end of that email before I finally wrote the one that I sent it with.
# [20:50] <TabAtkins> Gradually convincing myself into my current position.
# [20:52] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [20:52] <dholbert> TabAtkins, (we still need to allow the algorithm to go from "free space for everyone! grow!" to "not enough space, shrink" between successive loop iterations, of course)
# [20:53] <dholbert> TabAtkins, (that's easy enough to merge into your suggested new algorithm, though)
# [20:53] <TabAtkins> dholbert: The algo doesn't switch between those two.
# [20:53] <dholbert> TabAtkins, the existing algo, you mean?
# [20:54] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it determines total space at the beginning, and does either growing or shrinking based on that.
# [20:54] <dholbert> oh right
# [20:57] <dholbert> [yeah, I was misremembering the "If the sign of the free space is positive and the algorithm is using the flex-grow factor" business]
# [21:12] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
# [21:12] * Parts: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak) (Zakim)
# [21:20] * Joins: krit1 (~krit@public.cloak)
# [21:20] * Quits: krit (~krit@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [21:27] * Quits: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [21:28] * Joins: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak)
# [21:30] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak) ("nn")
# [21:30] * Quits: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [21:30] * Joins: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak)
# [21:33] * Joins: emalasky (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [21:33] * Joins: emalasky1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [21:40] * Quits: emalasky (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [21:57] * Joins: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
# [22:03] * Quits: emalasky1 (~Adium@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [22:12] * Quits: tobie (tobie@public.cloak)
# [22:37] <fantasai> plh: If you could give webreq a hand getting https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013OctDec/0065.html ready for publication, I'd appreciate it! Should just require unzipping into place... I ran pubrules as best I could, so it *should* just pass.
# [22:37] <plh> sure
# [22:38] <plh> gimme 5 minutes
# [22:38] <fantasai> Thanks!
# [22:43] <plh> I see that you use css-test-3 now
# [22:44] <plh> do you also want css-text to point to css-text-3 ?
# [22:44] <fantasai> Ah! Yes
# [22:44] <fantasai> /TR/css-text-3/ should be the shortname
# [22:44] <plh> yep
# [22:44] <fantasai> /TR/css-text/ should alias to /TR/css-text/
# [22:44] <fantasai> and /TR/css3-text/ should give a Permanent Redirecto to /TR/css-text-3/
# [22:45] * fantasai forgot to write that in the publication request
# [22:45] <fantasai> Should I write a mail to webreq, or is that something you will set up?
# [22:45] <plh> /TR/css-text/ should alias to /TR/css-text-3/ , correct?
# [22:45] <fantasai> yes
# [22:45] <plh> ok
# [22:45] <plh> you're all set
# [22:46] <plh> the document is already in place
# [22:46] <fantasai> wow, thanks!
# [22:46] <plh> I'll follow with the webmaster for the aliasis, etc.
# [22:47] <plh> as soonas my mailer is willing to cooperate
# [22:47] <plh> who takes care of the LC announcement btw?
# [22:47] <fantasai> the editor
# [22:47] <plh> ok, I won't worry about it then
# [22:57] * Quits: teoli (~teoli@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [22:57] <fantasai> :)
# [22:57] <fantasai> Thanks for the publication, I really appreciate it!
# [22:57] <plh> welcome
# [22:58] * Quits: antonp (~Thunderbird@public.cloak) (antonp)
# [23:04] * Quits: liam (liam@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [23:17] * Joins: emalasky (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [23:29] * Joins: krit (~krit@public.cloak)
# [23:34] * Quits: krit1 (~krit@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:49] * Quits: emalasky (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [23:49] * Joins: emalasky (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [23:50] * Joins: emalasky1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [23:50] * Quits: emalasky (~Adium@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [23:50] * Quits: emalasky1 (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# Session Close: Thu Oct 10 00:00:00 2013

The end :)