/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-03-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Mar 04 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  12. # [01:35] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: Tring to grok the <grid-line> syntax … I think <custom-ident> | [ <integer> && <custom-ident>? ] is identical to <integer> || <custom-ident> in terms of grammar.
  13. # [01:35] <SimonSapin> Is there a reason not to write it that way?
  14. # [01:37] <TabAtkins> Yes, it's identical. Writing it that way makes it clearer that they are different syntax forms, and gives a better connection to the definition of each form down the in <dl>.
  15. # [01:39] <SimonSapin> Eh. This doesn’t fit at all in Gecko’s nsCSSValue :)
  16. # [01:40] <TabAtkins> Hey, black-box compatible. Do what you want.
  17. # [01:40] <SimonSapin> sure
  18. # [01:40] <SimonSapin> I’m complaining about Gecko more than about the spec
  19. # [01:41] <TabAtkins> Ah, kk.
  20. # [01:44] <SimonSapin> In Servo each property has its own pair of data types for specified and computed values
  21. # [01:44] <SimonSapin> <3 Rust enum
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  30. # [07:20] <fantasai> TabAtkins: btw, I'm free to work on Thursday if you want
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  70. # [14:18] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins, fantasai: a note in the Grid ED would be helpful to explain what’s going on with the three versions of the layout algorithm
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  109. # [19:31] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I have a phone interview from 3:30 to 4:15.
  110. # [19:31] <TabAtkins> on Thursday.
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  114. # [19:50] * liam hopes the telephone passes the interview
  115. # [19:51] <TabAtkins> liam: They're usually pretty bad at it.
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  117. # [19:54] <liam> :D
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  126. # [21:09] <shepazu> does text-decoration trigger reflow, or just repaint?
  127. # [21:11] <SimonSapin> shepazu: that’s up to implementations, but IIRC it doesn’t affect layout
  128. # [21:13] <shepazu> SimonSapin, thanks :)
  129. # [21:14] <shepazu> SimonSapin, how can you tell if any given property affects reflow?
  130. # [21:14] <Ms2ger> If you can, there's an implementation bug :)
  131. # [21:15] <SimonSapin> shepazu: if in any of the specs’ layout algorithms, the size or position of any fragment depends (possibly indirectly) on that property
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  133. # [21:17] <SimonSapin> but it’s actually a fuzzy concept
  134. # [21:18] <SimonSapin> since many things can affect the "overflow area" of some element
  135. # [21:18] <SimonSapin> which is how much you can scroll if that element has scrollbars
  136. # [21:18] <SimonSapin> so… I’m not sure
  137. # [21:19] <shepazu> ah, well, seemed like something that affects performance like that might have been easy to pinpoint
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  142. # [22:29] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: I added a note to all three of the algo sections.
  143. # [22:31] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: cool
  144. # [22:33] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: any more idea what to do about <custom-ident> vs. shorthands?
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  146. # [22:33] <TabAtkins> The best I've got is:
  147. # [22:33] <TabAtkins> 1) Only make the automatic restriction apply to keywords in the same simple group/function (or top-level, if it lives in the top level).
  148. # [22:33] <TabAtkins> (This is what I said in the email.)
  149. # [22:34] <TabAtkins> 2) Explicitly require spec authors to define what types of keywords are disallowed, with an easy way to say "whatever ones are used by the grammar". Not doing so is a spec error.
  150. # [22:34] <SimonSapin> simple group is what Syntax calls a block?
  151. # [22:34] <TabAtkins> Sorry yeah, simple block.
  152. # [22:35] <SimonSapin> so CSS-wide keywords are only disallowed at property value top-level?
  153. # [22:35] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I think so.
  154. # [22:36] <SimonSapin> that simplified Grid’s <line-names>, good
  155. # [22:36] <SimonSapin> simplifies*
  156. # [22:37] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it makes the <line-names> completely unrestricted.
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  158. # [22:40] <SimonSapin> yeah, same block/functions sounds like a good boundary. It may still restrict cases that are not actually ambiguous, but it’s easy to define
  159. # [22:40] <TabAtkins> Yup yup.
  160. # [22:40] <TabAtkins> So I think we shouldn't do my #2 above, but probably make sure it's *possible* to specify a particular list of disallowed keywords.
  161. # [22:41] <SimonSapin> why?
  162. # [22:41] <TabAtkins> It's probably fine to just default to "disallow anything else in the same context".
  163. # [22:44] <SimonSapin> where do we have <custom-ident> yet? counter names, counter styles, Grid. More?
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  165. # [22:45] <astearns> I should probably change named flows to <custom-ident>
  166. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> Animation names and font names *should* be using <custom-ident>, but they dont'. (And they'd need to customize the disallowed stuff.)
  167. # [22:48] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: How did you and I miss these bugs in the parse algos? >_<
  168. # [22:48] <SimonSapin> yeah :/
  169. # [22:49] <SimonSapin> typical case of "I know what this is supposed to say"
  170. # [22:50] <SimonSapin> I’ve heard the argument that implementers should not also be editors of the spec they implement, for this reason
  171. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> Heh, yeah.
  172. # [22:51] <dauwhe> GCPM uses <custom-ident> for the names of named strings, etc. But pages spec uses <identifier> for named pages.
  173. # [22:51] <TabAtkins> Hm, the consume algorithms are somewhat inconsistent on whether they start with the current or next input token. I think I need to make them consistent.
  174. # [22:52] <SimonSapin> "CR means we found all the bugs already, right?" :)
  175. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> It means we're done with design work, and hope there's only minor bugs left.
  176. # [22:54] <SimonSapin> hope sounds right
  177. # [22:55] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: re <custom-ident>, with the same group/function thing, Grid doesn’t have a problem with shorthands anymore
  178. # [22:55] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  179. # [22:55] <SimonSapin> but I wonder if non-ambiguous things could be come ambiguous when stuck in the same shorthand
  180. # [22:56] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  181. # [22:56] <TabAtkins> That is, yes they can.
  182. # [22:56] <SimonSapin> so maybe we shouldn’t make shorthands special
  183. # [22:56] <TabAtkins> What do you mean by "special"?
  184. # [22:57] <SimonSapin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Mar/0011.html
  185. # [22:58] <SimonSapin> if <line-names> didn’t have parens
  186. # [22:58] <TabAtkins> Still don't know which behavior you intend to mean is "special".
  187. # [22:59] <SimonSapin> if <line-names> didn’t have parens, should "dense" be excluded in <line-names> in the 'grid' shorthand?
  188. # [22:59] <SimonSapin> current spec says yes
  189. # [23:00] <SimonSapin> which means we can’t always serialize the shorthand (in a way that’s legal to parse), as you pointed out
  190. # [23:00] <TabAtkins> Yes. So which behavior do you think is "special"? ^_^
  191. # [23:01] <TabAtkins> I completely understand what the possible behaviors are, just not which you consider "normal" and which you consider "special".
  192. # [23:02] <TabAtkins> Or rather, which one you'd prefer. That's the actual information I'd like to know.
  193. # [23:02] <SimonSapin> one option is to change the rules to make shorthands an exception: when parsing <custom-ident> in a shorthand, only exclude other keywords from the same longhands
  194. # [23:02] <SimonSapin> but that’s also problematic, as it could introduce ambiguities in parsing
  195. # [23:02] <TabAtkins> What do you mean by "the same longhands"?
  196. # [23:03] <TabAtkins> Case in point - what keywords are disallowed for the <counter-style> when writing 'list-style'?
  197. # [23:03] <TabAtkins> Just the keywords from 'list-style-type'? Or all the keywords from all the list-style longhands?
  198. # [23:03] * TabAtkins is sorry, but you keep using words in ambiguous ways, so I don't know which options you're referring to. :/
  199. # [23:04] <SimonSapin> 'subgrid' is in the same longhand (grid-template-{columns,rows}) as <line-names>), 'dense' isn’t
  200. # [23:04] <SimonSapin> although they can both appear in the 'grid' shorthand
  201. # [23:04] <TabAtkins> Okay, "from the longhand the <custom-ident> appears in".
  202. # [23:04] <SimonSapin> yes
  203. # [23:04] <TabAtkins> The ambiguity clearly breaks that.
  204. # [23:05] <SimonSapin> yes, so the exception for shorthands that I described above is a bad idea
  205. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> Though the ambiguity is only troublesome if there's a meaningful ordering constraint mixed in as well.
  206. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> But still, that's too subtle to base a distinction on.
  207. # [23:05] <SimonSapin> but not having it is also a bad idea, for serialization
  208. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> Sometimes you can't serialize shorthands.
  209. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> That's already something that happens.
  210. # [23:05] <SimonSapin> oh, ok
  211. # [23:06] <TabAtkins> Can't think of an example off the top of my head, but they exist.
  212. # [23:06] <SimonSapin> right
  213. # [23:06] <SimonSapin> so, the proposed change is to only exclude keywords (including css-wide) that appear at the same "level"
  214. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> Ugh, I have current/next token bugs littering these algorithms.
  215. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> Yes.
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  217. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> Switching everything to consistently start by looking at the next input token, ignoring the current one.
  218. # [23:07] <SimonSapin> can we try to resolve on it tomorrow?
  219. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> Yeah. I won't be in the call, but go for it.
  220. # [23:08] <SimonSapin> (I have patches in review blocked on this :))
  221. # [23:08] <SimonSapin> (well, not just on this but still)
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  224. # [23:24] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: Can I leave today’s Syntax issues to you?
  225. # [23:24] <TabAtkins> Please do, since I'm in the mdidle of them right now.
  226. # [23:25] <SimonSapin> cool
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  229. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> All right, Syntax should be done now.
  230. # Session Close: Wed Mar 05 00:00:00 2014

The end :)