/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-04-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 02 00:00:01 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  12. # [00:44] <heycam> TabAtkins, ping
  13. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> yo
  14. # [00:44] <heycam> hey
  15. # [00:44] <heycam> color: var(foo)
  16. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> var(--foo)
  17. # [00:44] <heycam> is that invalid at specified or computed value time?
  18. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> Parsing time.
  19. # [00:44] <heycam> without the dashes
  20. # [00:45] <heycam> ok
  21. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> As it doesn't correspond to the right production.
  22. # [00:45] <heycam> I think that's not what the spec requires currently
  23. # [00:45] <heycam> it refers to <custom-ident>
  24. # [00:45] <heycam> which allows an ident
  25. # [00:45] <heycam> *any
  26. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> Hm, you're right. Let me go tweak that.
  27. # [00:46] <heycam> thanks
  28. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> k, done. var() is now defined with the <custom-property-name> production.
  29. # [00:49] <heycam> cool
  30. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> I also clarified that you *do* check if the var() is valid, and fail the property if it isn't. Assuming they're valid, though, the rest of the property must be assumed to be valid until substitution time.
  31. # [00:50] <heycam> great, that was an earlier comment I made I think
  32. # [00:50] <heycam> that it wasn't clear when you do that var() syntax check
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  120. # [17:17] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0012.html'
  121. # [17:17] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0012.html'
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  124. # [17:17] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/04/02-css-irc
  125. # [17:17] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  126. # [17:17] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 44 minutes
  127. # [17:17] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  128. # [17:17] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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  135. # [17:58] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  136. # [17:58] <Zakim> +dael
  137. # [17:58] <Zakim> +SGalineau
  138. # [17:58] <dael> ScribeNick: dael
  139. # [18:00] <Zakim> +??P16
  140. # [18:00] <glazou> Zakim, ??P16 is me
  141. # [18:00] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
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  144. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.858.354.aaaa
  145. # [18:01] <Zakim> +??P21
  146. # [18:01] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P21 is me
  147. # [18:01] <plinss> zakim, +1.858.354 is me
  148. # [18:01] <SimonSapin> (probably)
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  150. # [18:02] <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is plinss
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  153. # [18:02] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
  154. # [18:02] <Zakim> +plinss; got it
  155. # [18:02] <Zakim> + +1.917.207.aabb
  156. # [18:02] <Zakim> +glenn
  157. # [18:02] <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
  158. # [18:02] <dauwhe> Zakim, aabb is me
  159. # [18:02] <Zakim> +dauwhe; got it
  160. # [18:02] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  161. # [18:02] <gregwhitworth> Zakim, Microsoft has me
  162. # [18:02] <Zakim> +gregwhitworth; got it
  163. # [18:03] <Zakim> +fantasai
  164. # [18:03] <Zakim> +rhauck
  165. # [18:03] <Zakim> +Bert
  166. # [18:03] <Zakim> + +1.281.305.aacc
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  168. # [18:04] * plh zakim, call plh-mobile
  169. # [18:04] <Zakim> + +37684aadd
  170. # [18:04] * Zakim ok, plh; the call is being made
  171. # [18:04] <Zakim> +Plh
  172. # [18:04] <antonp> Zakim, aadd is me
  173. # [18:04] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
  174. # [18:05] <dael> glazou: Let's start
  175. # [18:05] <dael> glazou: First thing, any extra items?
  176. # [18:05] * Joins: koji (~koji@public.cloak)
  177. # [18:05] <dael> SimonSapin: I'd like to talk about customidents
  178. # [18:05] <dael> glazou: Anything else?
  179. # [18:05] <dael> Topic: Publications requests
  180. # [18:05] <glazou> http://tabatkins.github.io/specs/css-will-change/
  181. # [18:06] <dael> glazou: First is will-change
  182. # [18:06] * Joins: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak)
  183. # [18:06] <SimonSapin> s/customidents/<custom-ident>/
  184. # [18:06] <dael> TabAtkins: We talked at last F2F. It hasn't been published, it's just on my github.
  185. # [18:06] <dael> ...: I'd like to publish it officially as a FPWD if possible
  186. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +1.415.231.aaee
  187. # [18:06] <Zakim> +??P58
  188. # [18:06] <dael> TabAtkins: I'd prefer FP, but if I can't get that ED is fine, but I'd like to just publish if possible
  189. # [18:06] <abinader> Zakim, ??P58 is me
  190. # [18:06] <Zakim> +abinader; got it
  191. # [18:06] <koji> zakim, +1.415.231.aaee is me
  192. # [18:07] <Zakim> +koji; got it
  193. # [18:07] <dael> glazou: What do people think?
  194. # [18:07] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak)
  195. # [18:07] * fantasai defers to dbaron ;)
  196. # [18:07] <dael> ??: I still think it's strange and wonder if there's better, but no obj. It might help solve my issues
  197. # [18:07] <fantasai> s/??/Bert/
  198. # [18:07] <dael> glazou: I still think it's wierd, but I'm oky to pub. I'd like to have this in the charter and reviewed, plh an updated?
  199. # [18:07] * sylvaing RESOLVED: will-change is weird but not weird enough to object to
  200. # [18:07] <dael> plh: We're reordering the list in the chater, but we can add this
  201. # [18:08] <gregwhitworth> LOL
  202. # [18:08] <dael> glazou: Other opinions?
  203. # [18:08] <Zakim> +dbaron
  204. # [18:08] <dael> glazou: Microsoft, what fo you think?
  205. # [18:08] <dael> glazou: Ah, dbaron joined. We're discussing will-change from TabAtkins
  206. # [18:08] <dael> dbaron: I'm in favor.
  207. # [18:08] * Joins: arybka (~arybka@public.cloak)
  208. # [18:08] <dael> glazou: Other browser vendors
  209. # [18:09] * Quits: rhauck1 (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  210. # [18:09] <dael> ???: I'm not too keen, but go ahead and publish. Will-change just tells the browswer what's coming, right?
  211. # [18:09] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes, it tells the browser a layer will change.
  212. # [18:09] <glazou> s/???/greg
  213. # [18:09] <dael> gregwhitworth: Go ahead and publish and we can hash it out later.
  214. # [18:09] <dael> ??: I think it's wierd, but go ahead. People are doing things to activate the DPU and this is better than that
  215. # [18:10] * Joins: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak)
  216. # [18:10] <glazou> s/??/sylvaing
  217. # [18:10] <dael> glazou: It seems we agree on FPWD, yes?
  218. # [18:10] <dbaron> s/DPU/GPU/
  219. # [18:10] <dael> ???: Just a question, what does it require?
  220. # [18:10] <glazou> s/???/SimonSapin
  221. # [18:10] <Zakim> +BradK
  222. # [18:10] * Joins: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak)
  223. # [18:10] <dael> TabAtkins: It'll sometimes create stacking, but any other action is UI's discression and purely a hint
  224. # [18:10] <dael> glazou: Any objection?
  225. # [18:10] <SimonSapin> SimonSapin: isn’t it a hint, rather than dictating anything?
  226. # [18:10] <sylvaing> It seems odd right now but is really no weirder than setting translateZ to force elements into their own layer on some browsers
  227. # [18:10] <dael> RESOLVED: FPWD for will-change
  228. # [18:10] <gregwhitworth> yeah
  229. # [18:11] <dael> action plh to add will-change to charter
  230. # [18:11] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  231. # [18:11] <trackbot> Created ACTION-623 - Add will-change to charter [on Philippe Le Hégaret - due 2014-04-09].
  232. # [18:11] <dael> glazou: Next is scoping
  233. # [18:11] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  234. # [18:11] <dael> TabAtkins: Same deal, krit requested an extra week before FPWD so we can get extra comments, haven't had any.
  235. # [18:11] <dael> fantasai: Is plh on the call?
  236. # [18:11] <dael> fantasai: plh can you approve css-scoping shortname?
  237. # [18:11] <dael> glazou: plh? He's probably away
  238. # [18:12] <dael> plh: Yes. yes I can.
  239. # [18:12] <dael> fantasai: The goal is to pub tomorrow so I have to submit away
  240. # [18:12] * fantasai RRSAgent pointer
  241. # [18:12] <dael> glazou: We have nothing from krit and we left a week.
  242. # [18:12] <MaRakow> Zakim, [Microsoft.a] is me
  243. # [18:12] <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
  244. # [18:12] <fantasai> RRSAgent: pointer
  245. # [18:12] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2014/04/02-css-irc#T16-11-34
  246. # [18:12] <dael> RESOLVED: FPWD for CSS-scoping with the short name Scoping
  247. # [18:12] <dael> Topic: follow up on Namespace
  248. # [18:12] * plinss zakim, who is making noise?
  249. # [18:13] * Zakim plinss, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: MaRakow (19%)
  250. # [18:13] <dael> glazou: www-style ended up discussing behavoiur of OM when we insert in a style sheet
  251. # [18:13] * MaRakow still making noise?
  252. # [18:13] <dael> ...: I understand about reparsing the whole thing. I would have considered that a mistake 10 years ago, but didn't detect
  253. # [18:13] <fantasai> RRSAgent, pointer
  254. # [18:13] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2014/04/02-css-irc#T16-12-50
  255. # [18:13] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Mar/0502.html
  256. # [18:14] <dael> ...: I still think we can make an errata to allow name instertion b/c it'll be rare and won't impact rendering engine or webpages.
  257. # [18:14] <BradK> Still static
  258. # [18:14] <dael> glazou: I'd like to hear from other vendors and see if we can start an errata
  259. # [18:14] <Zakim> -MaRakow
  260. # [18:14] <dael> TabAtkins: I agree. we can change to not throw away and changing namespace just makes it not normal.
  261. # [18:14] <dael> glazou: Others?
  262. # [18:14] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  263. # [18:14] <dael> SimonSapin: I think this is fine because we have selector fixed in OM anyway so propbly need to start as text and that's easy to reparse
  264. # [18:15] <dael> glazou: I'm not sure. Selector text is stored only in case of rule you reserved and you're not reserving a rule if prefix is unknown
  265. # [18:15] <Zakim> -glazou
  266. # [18:15] <dael> dbaron: So you're saying if prefix is changed, rule stays
  267. # [18:15] <glazou> sorry
  268. # [18:15] <glazou> coming back
  269. # [18:15] <dael> glazou: Rule stays but selects nothing
  270. # [18:15] <dbaron> s/changed/unknown/
  271. # [18:15] <dael> TabAtkins: That single type selector selects nothing, not the whole thing.
  272. # [18:15] <Zakim> +??P16
  273. # [18:16] <dael> ...: So you could use it in a not expression and it would become null?
  274. # [18:16] <dael> SimonSapin: Ar eyou proposing it reads selectors in the OM?
  275. # [18:16] <dael> glazou: Change the validity rule of selectors w/ unknow prefix. They're currently invald, I say valid and selecting nothing.
  276. # [18:16] <dael> SimonSapin: Oky
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  278. # [18:16] <dael> TabAtkins: So will the whole selector match nothing, or just that simple type selector
  279. # [18:17] <dael> glazou: The case where one thing invalidates a whole group is for validity
  280. # [18:17] <SimonSapin> s/it reads selectors/rules
  281. # [18:17] <SimonSapin> s/it reads selectors/rules with invalid selectors show up/
  282. # [18:17] <TabAtkins> :not(unknown|foo)
  283. # [18:17] <dael> TabAtkins: What I mean is this (above)
  284. # [18:17] <dael> TabAtkins: that should match nothing, but does that mean the whole selector matching nothing, or they type selector matches nothing?
  285. # [18:18] <dael> glazou: It should be consistant. So :not should select everything
  286. # [18:18] <dael> TabAtkins: That's fine, I just wanted to be clear
  287. # [18:18] <dael> ??: We just wanted it to be matches nothing at all
  288. # [18:18] <dael> glazou: It seems there's agreement on what we want if we want something
  289. # [18:18] <sylvaing> no objection
  290. # [18:18] <dael> ...: Is there consensus about writing and errata, which I can do
  291. # [18:18] <dael> ...: Any obj?
  292. # [18:19] <dael> glazou: THen I will do it and we'll change the behaviour of unknown prefixes.
  293. # [18:19] <dael> TabAtkins: I can make the edits to selectors and name space if needed.
  294. # [18:19] <dael> ...: Well, whereever it is.
  295. # [18:19] * plinss zakim, ?p16 is glazou
  296. # [18:19] * Zakim sorry, plinss, I do not recognize a party named '?p16'
  297. # [18:19] <dael> SimonSapin: I think it goes into selectors
  298. # [18:19] <dael> glazou: Not only that.
  299. # [18:19] * plinss zakim, ??p16 is glazou
  300. # [18:19] * Zakim +glazou; got it
  301. # [18:19] <dael> SimonSapin: Namespace should be invalid for other specs
  302. # [18:19] <SimonSapin> CSS qualified names can be used in (for example) selectors and property values as described in other modules. Those modules must define handling of namespace prefixes that have not been properly declared. Such handling should treat undeclared namespace prefixes as a parsing error that will cause the selector or declaration (etc.) to be considered invalid and, in CSS, ignored.
  303. # [18:19] <dael> SimonSapin: Namespace spec says...(above)
  304. # [18:20] <dael> SimonSapin: This bit talks about other specs and it has a should for the specs
  305. # [18:20] <Zakim> +??P66
  306. # [18:20] <dael> glazou: this is a hole in all the specs and everything deives from a 14 year old spec. We'll have to mod in multiple locations.
  307. # [18:20] <dael> SimonSapin: Okay.
  308. # [18:20] <SimonSapin> SimonSapin: with updating both
  309. # [18:20] <dael> RESOLVED: Modification of the validity of an unknown prefix in selectors and insertion of namespace rules
  310. # [18:21] <dael> SimonSapin: You say insertion?
  311. # [18:21] <dael> glazou: They're currently throwing an exception if there's anything beyond insertion point?
  312. # [18:21] * Joins: Bogdan_Brinza (~Bogdan_Brinza@public.cloak)
  313. # [18:21] <dael> SimonSapin: So they're only allowed to insert where valid?
  314. # [18:21] <dael> glazou: Yes yes.
  315. # [18:21] * sylvaing wonders if there are other cases where we'd want selectors to stay valid and match nothing rather than dropping an entire rule
  316. # [18:21] <dael> glazou: We're not saying they're allowed anyhere
  317. # [18:21] <dael> s/anyhere/anywhere
  318. # [18:22] <dael> Topic: followup on subgrid
  319. # [18:22] <dael> glazou: Anything to say?
  320. # [18:22] <dael> TabAtkins: Is fantasai there?
  321. # [18:22] <dael> fantasai: Yes.
  322. # [18:22] <dael> glazou: And is she willing to discuss?
  323. # [18:22] <dael> fantasai: I maintain position as started before.
  324. # [18:22] <dael> glazou: So that was short
  325. # [18:23] <dael> TabAtkins: We brought it up so we can resolve one way or another. Subgrid in 1 or move to 2
  326. # [18:23] <dael> fantasai: I'll obj if we punt
  327. # [18:23] <dael> SimonSapin: Does it make sense to mark as at-risk?
  328. # [18:23] <dael> fantasai: I'm not sure. It's accessability, not something nice
  329. # [18:23] <dael> SimonSapin: What do you mean accessability?
  330. # [18:23] <SimonSapin> s/SimonSapin/sylvaing
  331. # [18:23] <SimonSapin> (once)
  332. # [18:24] <dael> fantasai: Let's say you have a form with grid layout and in order to use it you remove strutural elements to make a list, you've removed the structural stff and now people can't understand without the grid
  333. # [18:24] <dael> ...: That stucture is gone and you had to remove it to use grid
  334. # [18:24] <dael> SimonSapin: You don't need to do it for flex
  335. # [18:24] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  336. # [18:24] <dael> fantasai: No. You may need extra spans and divs, but that's adding extra not removing
  337. # [18:24] * Joins: florian (~Adium@public.cloak)
  338. # [18:24] <dael> SimonSapin: Yes, but that you need to alter your markup doesn't mean it doesn't have value
  339. # [18:25] <SimonSapin> s/SimonSapin/sylvaing
  340. # [18:25] <SimonSapin> (twice more)
  341. # [18:25] <dael> fantasai: If we shift as-is people will strip their markup b/c they want grid, not caring about it working for non-visual consumers
  342. # [18:25] <dael> SimonSapin: So you establish grid isn't super-cool, there's still value
  343. # [18:25] <SimonSapin> (I give up :) )
  344. # [18:25] <dael> fantasai: Even where you have something like a front-page, you'll still have problems. I have examples listed and they're common cases.
  345. # [18:26] <dael> fantasai: This will be worse than what we have today
  346. # [18:26] <gregwhitworth> Can you link to the examples
  347. # [18:26] <dael> ...: Today with the layout hacks it's bad, but they don't stip things
  348. # [18:26] * glazou SimonSapin LOL
  349. # [18:26] <dael> sylvaing: I'm not sure stripping stuff is the only way
  350. # [18:26] <dael> ...: I've seem things added.
  351. # [18:26] <gregwhitworth> Of the accessibility problems
  352. # [18:26] <Bert> s/stip/strip/
  353. # [18:26] <dael> TabAtkins: Point remians it's still complex and if we want to impl vefore shipping, it'll slow the feature
  354. # [18:27] <dael> fantasai: But if you don't you'll have a whole class of webaouthors learn without subgrid and they'll jsut keep doing it.
  355. # [18:27] <dael> TabAtkins: People will learn as time goes on and subgrid is easier so when it's there it'll be used
  356. # [18:27] <dael> glazou: You guys are disagreeing and I don't think we'll solve it in next 25 min.
  357. # [18:28] <dael> ...: I suggest we go to e-mail and we move-on.
  358. # [18:28] <dael> sylvaing: I think we should stay on use-cases and the before and after. WE shouldn't speculate on what people will do. Early adoptor will adapt.
  359. # [18:28] <dael> ...: If we fear people won't pick up a level 2 thing, we fear the benefits won't be obvious. Let's not speculate, let's look at use cases
  360. # [18:29] <dael> glazou: We have something from sylvaing on animations and one from SimonSapin
  361. # [18:29] <dael> Topic: Animations
  362. # [18:29] <dael> sylvaing: Let me pull them.
  363. # [18:29] <sylvaing> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25107
  364. # [18:29] <dael> sylvaing: This should be the easier
  365. # [18:29] * Quits: liam (liam@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  366. # [18:29] <dael> ...: So this one is about the format of the string arguement for findRule() and deleteRule()
  367. # [18:30] <dael> ...: The spec said it's a # between 0 and 1, but that's only IE.
  368. # [18:30] <dael> ...: Everyone else never did that. Geicko, webkit,blink uses percentage.
  369. # [18:30] * dbaron thinks we may have resolved to change the spec before, too :-)
  370. # [18:30] <dael> ...: That's consistant with how you write it and how it's in the OM so it's more usable
  371. # [18:30] <dael> ...: So I think we should change to Geicko approach. I think IE can keep it, but everynoe should support %
  372. # [18:31] <dael> glazou: What about keywords from and to?
  373. # [18:31] <Zakim> -glazou
  374. # [18:31] <dael> sylvaing: They work. I think they match their corrisponding values everywhere.
  375. # [18:31] <glazou> GLARGL
  376. # [18:31] <dael> glazou: I support change
  377. # [18:31] <dael> dbaron: In geicko we use the same as appear on the stylesheet.
  378. # [18:31] <Zakim> +??P16
  379. # [18:31] <glazou> Zakim, ??P16 is me
  380. # [18:31] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  381. # [18:31] <dbaron> s/same as/same parsing that we do when they/
  382. # [18:31] <dael> sylvaing: So any concern from Microsoft?
  383. # [18:31] <TabAtkins> s/geicko/gecko/g
  384. # [18:32] <dael> gregwhitworth: Sounds reasonable.
  385. # [18:32] <dael> sylvaing: Anyone using IE needs to patch in the numbers, so as long as you guys support both it'll work
  386. # [18:32] <dael> ...: I think you want to keep the old one and add support
  387. # [18:32] <MaRakow> s/gregwhitworth/MaRakow/
  388. # [18:32] <dael> RESOLVED: Use percentage values for findRule() and deleteRule()
  389. # [18:32] <dael> sylvaing: That's one.
  390. # [18:33] <sylvaing> RESOLVED: use percentage values for key arguments and map from/to keywords to 0% and 100% respectively
  391. # [18:33] <dael> sylvaing: Next one.
  392. # [18:33] <sylvaing> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Mar/0497.html
  393. # [18:33] <dael> sylvaing: This was also one of glazou issues. Clarifys keyframe rules when they get keys
  394. # [18:34] <dael> ...: Spec says if multi keyframe rules have same keyvalue the last one is accepted.
  395. # [18:34] * Quits: Bogdan_Brinza (~Bogdan_Brinza@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  396. # [18:34] <dael> ...: In the e-mail what we expect from the prose and the bwoswers is what the text says.
  397. # [18:34] <dael> ...: Gecko is doing interesting cascading in the rule. It's doing on a property basis.
  398. # [18:35] <dael> dbaron: I feel what gecko is doing is correct. We discussed this a few years ago and maybe res.
  399. # [18:35] <dael> sylvaing: I tried to look, but don't remember. Can you elaborate?
  400. # [18:35] <dael> dbaron: It's hard for me to switch this into my head
  401. # [18:36] <dael> TabAtkins: One ex as to why it's better, if you're doing several loosly related animations and want to do all width at one point and backgrounda t a different and they land on same keyframe, it's nice to keep sep
  402. # [18:36] <dael> sylvaing: If you want to change the width on the keyframe and you don't lose the rest, though
  403. # [18:36] <dael> glazou: udnerstand usecase, but we have problem with object model.
  404. # [18:36] <dael> ...: When you find something from keyframe, you get one rule only
  405. # [18:37] <dael> sylvaing: That's another issue. Some of you questions, you cannot expect the OM to give you everything. When you look at browser you get a bunch of text you edit
  406. # [18:37] <dael> ...: We can talk about that with findRule() question
  407. # [18:37] <dael> glazou: I mentioned it since whatever you pick there's an OM change
  408. # [18:37] <dael> sylvaing: Maybe, but there might be other reasons to change
  409. # [18:37] * fantasai Bert, would you have time to set up css-scoping as FPWD after the call? It's prepped already prepped. Otherwise, I can send a zipfile
  410. # [18:37] <dael> ...: So only Gecko does thing right now. Sounds good to me, but it's a significant change and I'd like to hear from other vendors
  411. # [18:37] * fantasai Bert, https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2014AprJun/0011.html
  412. # [18:38] <dael> TabAtkins: I can ask about compt athoughs. I'm fine.
  413. # [18:38] * fantasai Bert, it passes pubrules
  414. # [18:38] <dael> glazou: Anyone from apple on call? I'd like to hear from them.
  415. # [18:38] <dael> sylvaing: IE too
  416. # [18:38] <dael> ??: For the OM question, I'd like to think about that more
  417. # [18:38] * Bert to fantasai: if it is easy as line-grid, no problem. :-)
  418. # [18:39] <dael> sylvaing: I'm less concerned about OM since there's so much compat issues. It's more that we're changing the concept so something may break. BUt there's a lot of breakage so we could talk to firefox
  419. # [18:39] <dael> glazou: Okay, so do you want an action to investage?
  420. # [18:39] <dael> action sylvaing investigate the opinons of other browsers
  421. # [18:39] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  422. # [18:39] <trackbot> Created ACTION-624 - Investigate the opinons of other browsers [on Sylvain Galineau - due 2014-04-09].
  423. # [18:39] * Quits: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  424. # [18:39] <dael> sylvaing: I have one question for webkit and blink engines, everyone agrees about appendRule, but they still have insertRule for legacy reasons
  425. # [18:40] <dael> ...: If they can fix it, that's awesome.
  426. # [18:40] <dael> TabAtkins: I'll ask about compat.
  427. # [18:40] <dael> sylvaing: You could add append to the old one
  428. # [18:40] <dael> TabAtkins: We can add. There's nothing wrong with that
  429. # [18:40] <dael> sylvaing: It's more supporting both
  430. # [18:40] <sylvaing> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25035
  431. # [18:40] <dael> sylvaing: Next one.
  432. # [18:40] * TabAtkins Le sigh. I have no idea how the spec ended up so different from the WK/Blink impl, when they were the first impl and wrote the spec.
  433. # [18:40] <MaRakow> s/??/MaRakow
  434. # [18:40] * fantasai Bert, but, you'll have to pull from Mercurial. dev.w3.org is 500ing and doesn't have the up-to-date copy :( :(
  435. # [18:40] <dael> sylvaing: keytext prop again. It's handling values in the spec
  436. # [18:41] <dael> ...: It's also not compat. You have keytext for the rule and when you put something invalid Gecko doesn't do anything
  437. # [18:41] <dael> ...: Blink and IE throw and do no update
  438. # [18:41] <dael> ...: Webkit just applies it
  439. # [18:41] * Quits: florian (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  440. # [18:41] <dael> sylvaing: So we have three possibility and they're all out there
  441. # [18:41] <dael> ...: Honestly, I don't have a strong opinion. Webkit seems silly, but I understand it.
  442. # [18:41] * Bert to fantasai: I normally look at Mercurial, but thanks for the warning.
  443. # [18:41] * fantasai Bert, OK, it finally loaded!
  444. # [18:42] <dael> glazou: I ended up doing the same tst and from editor view I'd prefer throwing
  445. # [18:42] <dael> TabAtkins: So this interacts with two issues back
  446. # [18:42] <dael> glazou: Yes, you can set invalid and something existing
  447. # [18:42] <TabAtkins> s/TabAtkins/dbaron/
  448. # [18:42] <dael> dbaron: So sylvaing e-mail is about the invalid?
  449. # [18:42] * fantasai Bert, oops, just a sec, got the wrong date!
  450. # [18:42] <dael> sylvaing: Let's keep the issues sep. So bogus values first.
  451. # [18:43] <dael> ...: What do we do if you put foobar as a keytext valid
  452. # [18:43] * fantasai thinks it's good April 1st wasn't a Thursday :p
  453. # [18:43] <dael> ...: I'm okay with antyhing, but Gecko doing nothing seems the worse since you don't know what happens
  454. # [18:43] <dael> dbaron: I didn't throw since the spec didn't say it, but it's a one line change
  455. # [18:43] <dael> TabAtkins: related, but should I make counterstyle rules throw?
  456. # [18:43] <dael> glazou: For consistancy, yes.
  457. # [18:44] <dael> glazou: So does anyone obj to throwing an error when keytext is invalid?
  458. # [18:44] <dbaron> throwing sounds fine as long as you say what exception to throw :-)
  459. # [18:44] <dael> sylvaing: That's the most common
  460. # [18:44] * TabAtkins SyntaxError, certainly?
  461. # [18:44] <dael> RESOLVED: Keytext on setting invalid value should throw
  462. # [18:44] <dael> sylvaing: You set a keytext to avalid value that already exists in rule
  463. # [18:44] * Joins: Bogdan_Brinza (~Bogdan_Brinza@public.cloak)
  464. # [18:44] <dael> ...: What I've seen in browsers is that the rule is updated in place.
  465. # [18:45] * fantasai Bert, OK, should be all set for tomorrow!
  466. # [18:45] <dael> ...: Order is what's specificed and not effect.
  467. # [18:45] * fantasai Bert, thanks!
  468. # [18:45] <dael> ...: I guess I want to know what we would do...It's easier if you're not on Gecko model and you're not cascading
  469. # [18:45] <dael> glazou: I think we have to solve the older issue before that one
  470. # [18:45] <dael> sylvaing: That okay. Sounds like a good F2F topic
  471. # [18:45] <dael> ...: Okay.
  472. # [18:45] * Bert thanks, fantasai, will install and check right this telcon.
  473. # [18:45] <dael> glazou: Anything else on animations?
  474. # [18:45] * fantasai great, thanks!
  475. # [18:45] <dael> sylvaing: Let me see
  476. # [18:45] * Bert *after*
  477. # [18:45] <dael> sylvaing: One more.
  478. # [18:45] <sylvaing> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25034
  479. # [18:46] * fantasai note to dael, you can strip that entire side-conversation ;)
  480. # [18:46] <dael> sylvaing: This one about which rule gets found when you have duplicate keys.
  481. # [18:46] <dael> ..: You have 3 20% rules, so which do you pick.
  482. # [18:46] * Joins: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak)
  483. # [18:46] <dael> ...: No compat. IE removes the one that applies
  484. # [18:46] <dael> ... Blinka nd Webkit do the first one first so they endup backwards.
  485. # [18:47] <dael> ...: Gecko is complex from cascade
  486. # [18:47] <dael> glazou: This also depend on order. We need a model before instructing the API
  487. # [18:47] <dael> sylvaing: I have one more, but it'll also depend on the discussion.
  488. # [18:47] <dael> sylvaing: I'll start a new thread on the ML and ask for specific compat feedback from rowser
  489. # [18:47] <dael> Topic: <custom-ident>
  490. # [18:48] <dael> SimonSapin: A few weeks ago we discussed a change to the values in the spec
  491. # [18:48] <dael> ...: We made a change and people disagreed on what the change should end up being
  492. # [18:48] <dael> ...: This is about what keyword should be disallowed to be custom-idents
  493. # [18:48] <dael> ...: Right now CSS-wide keywords are defaults for disallowed.
  494. # [18:48] <dael> ...: In addition anything that might be ambigous is disallowed
  495. # [18:49] <dael> ...: After I discussed with fantasai we thought it might be good to have the same rule for all custom-ident
  496. # [18:49] <dael> ...: It seems we don't have consensus on what behaviour should be
  497. # [18:50] <dael> fantasai: Makes sense to exclude global keywords. For other case such as grdlines where in the definition they're unabm. but in use they're amb. I think the spec will have to call out explicitly
  498. # [18:50] <dael> fantasai: I don't think we can make a universal rule. If there's a more indirect connection between ambigous and invalid such as with grid, I think that will need to say so
  499. # [18:50] <dael> ...: We may want a note in one spec that other specs should consider those for invalid. One thing I'm not sure of is shorthands
  500. # [18:51] * Zakim dael, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  501. # [18:51] <dael> ...: It could be one thing is unamb in longhand, but amb in shorthand
  502. # [18:51] * Zakim dael, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  503. # [18:51] <dael> TabAtkins: We can't do much generally anyway b/c we occationally make longhands into a shorthand
  504. # [18:51] * Zakim dael, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  505. # [18:51] <dael> ...: So if we make something that will automatically walk up the tree it might not work
  506. # [18:51] * glazou thinks TabAtkins ’s microphone input level is too high compared to others
  507. # [18:52] <dael> ...: If you use in longhand vs using in short hand, different values might be exluded.
  508. # [18:52] <SimonSapin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Mar/0582.html
  509. # [18:52] <Zakim> -glenn
  510. # [18:52] <dael> ...: It might be okay to define a counter style in one place but not somewhere since it conflicts witht he keyowrd
  511. # [18:52] <Zakim> +glenn
  512. # [18:52] <dael> fantasai: Alternatively, we could have a rule where the shorthand unless otherwise said you parse from start to end and try your best so you would prioritize keyword over custom-ident
  513. # [18:53] <dael> ...: so style is found first and than we looka t custome-ident
  514. # [18:53] <dael> dbaron: There's a bunch with parsing issues like this that we've solved.
  515. # [18:53] <dael> ...: One is list style shorthand where two prop take a none value
  516. # [18:54] <dael> ...: So we have to allow two none. If you're parsing you can't find a none and decide. You find a none, count the number, and see if you have more nones than props that can take nones
  517. # [18:54] * glazou loves the simplicity of CSS parsing sometimes :-D
  518. # [18:54] <dael> ...: Similar for animations and transitions except worse.
  519. # [18:54] <dael> ...: Transition and animation accept arbitarty things and in Gecko we attempt to parse the other things first. Only if they haven't already been found
  520. # [18:54] <dael> ...: I think you can see animation easein easein
  521. # [18:55] <glazou> s/easein/ease-in
  522. # [18:55] <dael> ...: The first is timing, second is name and that makes dynamic changes messy.
  523. # [18:55] <dael> ...: And I dont know how interop that is, thought the list-style thing it interop
  524. # [18:55] <dael> TabAtkins: Do we just conclude exclude global keywords and discuss more about ambiguities on the list?
  525. # [18:56] <dael> glazou: I think that's a fair conclusion to the discussion
  526. # [18:56] <sylvaing> what happens with new global keywords?
  527. # [18:56] <dael> SimonSapin: If we can come up with a general rule, we can decide about line names
  528. # [18:56] <dbaron> s/than props that/than unspecified props that/
  529. # [18:56] <dael> TabAtkins: WE can do that on the ML, that's fine.
  530. # [18:56] <dael> glazou: So we'll continue discussing this
  531. # [18:56] <dael> glazou: Anything else on this SimonSapin?
  532. # [18:56] <dael> glazou: So wwe have 4 minutes. Anything to discuss?
  533. # [18:56] <dael> fantasai: The que unit?
  534. # [18:57] <SimonSapin> s/If we can come up/If we can’t come up/
  535. # [18:57] <TabAtkins> q unit
  536. # [18:57] <dael> fantasai: There's a proposal on the ML about adding a que unit since that's common in japanse, but it didn't go anywhere
  537. # [18:57] <dael> ...: Since we have to pass through lc for values and units, so we want to add it?
  538. # [18:57] <dael> sylvaing: I don't htink there were any major obj except the usual suspects
  539. # [18:58] <dael> fantasai: So any opinions? I can just add it in
  540. # [18:58] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm fine with adding it
  541. # [18:58] <dael> SimonSapin: I'm fine with adding.
  542. # [18:58] <dael> glazou: Okay. Anything else?
  543. # [18:58] <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Nov/0302.html
  544. # [18:58] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-values/issues-cr-2013
  545. # [18:58] <dael> fantasai: We should publish new for values once we resolve the issues.
  546. # [18:59] <dael> glazou: I suggest we close for now. I'll miss the next call, but I'll talk to you next time.
  547. # [18:59] <Zakim> -SGalineau
  548. # [18:59] <Zakim> -dbaron
  549. # [18:59] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  550. # [18:59] <Zakim> -glenn
  551. # [18:59] <Zakim> -Bert
  552. # [18:59] <Zakim> -dauwhe
  553. # [18:59] <Zakim> -BradK
  554. # [18:59] <Zakim> - +1.281.305.aacc
  555. # [18:59] <Zakim> -antonp
  556. # [18:59] <Zakim> -glazou
  557. # [18:59] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  558. # [18:59] <Zakim> -dael
  559. # [18:59] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
  560. # [18:59] * Quits: dael (~dael@public.cloak) ("")
  561. # [18:59] * Quits: Bogdan_Brinza (~Bogdan_Brinza@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  562. # [18:59] <Zakim> -abinader
  563. # [18:59] <Zakim> -??P66
  564. # [18:59] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  565. # [18:59] <Zakim> -koji
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  567. # [19:00] <fantasai> RESOLVED: Add q unit to Values and Units
  568. # [19:00] <fantasai> (consensus declared by plinss)
  569. # [19:00] <Zakim> -Plh
  570. # [19:00] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
  571. # [19:00] <Zakim> -fantasai
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  573. # [19:00] <Zakim> -rhauck
  574. # [19:00] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  575. # [19:00] <Zakim> Attendees were dael, SGalineau, glazou, +1.858.354.aaaa, SimonSapin, plinss, +1.917.207.aabb, glenn, dauwhe, gregwhitworth, fantasai, rhauck, Bert, +1.281.305.aacc, +37684aadd,
  576. # [19:00] <Zakim> ... Plh, antonp, abinader, koji, dbaron, BradK, [Microsoft], MaRakow, SteveZ
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  588. # [19:32] <tantek> sorry to miss today! belated regrets - I'm at the W3C Web #Annotation workshop (yes that's the IRC channel for it)
  589. # [19:32] <tantek> (assuming IRC channels are case-insensitive)
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  637. # [23:21] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: Bikeshed auto-generates the property index table at the end of specs, right? Could it link back to the property definitions?
  638. # [23:21] <TabAtkins> Does it not?
  639. # [23:21] <TabAtkins> If so, definitely. File an issue for me?
  640. # [23:22] <SimonSapin> is Writing Modes or Grid on Bikeshed?
  641. # [23:22] <TabAtkins> Grid is. I dont' think WM is yet, but it might be.
  642. # [23:22] <TabAtkins> I forget if I've converted it yet.
  643. # [23:22] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it is.
  644. # [23:22] <TabAtkins> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-writing-modes/Overview.bs
  645. # [23:23] <SimonSapin> filed
  646. # [23:24] <TabAtkins> Me and Shane are collaborating on some Bikeshed upgrades right now. krit will be happy to hear we're adding more markdown features ^_^
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  650. # [23:53] * sylvaing must move css-animations to Bikeshed like, now
  651. # [23:58] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  652. # [23:58] <SimonSapin> Emergency Bikeshedding as a service
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  656. # [23:59] <hober> SimonSapin: with Uber-like surge pricing every Wednesday at 9 AM PT
  657. # Session Close: Thu Apr 03 00:00:00 2014

The end :)