/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-04-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 23 00:00:01 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  59. # [08:44] * fantasai reads scrollback
  60. # [08:45] <fantasai> Well, I guess it's time to catch up on Masking.
  61. # [08:45] <fantasai> I'm going to pretend I don't know what time it is.
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  66. # [09:19] <Ms2ger> fantasai, shouldn't you be asleep? :)
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  74. # [10:29] <fantasai> yep...
  75. # [10:47] <fantasai> ok, bedtime
  76. # [10:48] * fantasai got through all the issues and filed some more; thorough audit can be saved for later
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  96. # [17:03] <SimonSapin> Do we have a spec for margin-inline-start and friends?
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  100. # [17:24] * glazou changes topic to 'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0313.html'
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  103. # [17:25] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/04/23-css-irc
  104. # [17:25] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
  105. # [17:25] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 35 minutes
  106. # [17:25] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
  107. # [17:25] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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  116. # [17:56] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
  117. # [17:56] <Zakim> +plinss
  118. # [17:56] <Zakim> +dael
  119. # [17:56] <dael> ScribeNick: dael
  120. # [17:57] <SimonSapin> B
  121. # [17:57] <SimonSapin> (sorry, typo)
  122. # [17:57] * Joins: antonp (~Thunderbird@public.cloak)
  123. # [17:58] <Zakim> +??P11
  124. # [17:58] <Zakim> +??P2
  125. # [17:58] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??11 is me
  126. # [17:58] <Zakim> sorry, SimonSapin, I do not recognize a party named '??11'
  127. # [17:58] <glazou> Zakim, ??P2 is me
  128. # [17:58] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
  129. # [17:58] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P11 is me
  130. # [17:58] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
  131. # [17:58] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  132. # [17:58] * Joins: AH_Miller (~mike@public.cloak)
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  134. # [18:00] * Joins: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak)
  135. # [18:00] <Zakim> +Stearns
  136. # [18:01] <Zakim> +??P17
  137. # [18:01] <Zakim> +??P21
  138. # [18:01] <Zakim> +hober
  139. # [18:01] * Joins: koji (~koji@public.cloak)
  140. # [18:01] <Zakim> +Bert
  141. # [18:01] <glazou> http://www.tug.org/tugboat/tb27-2/tb87benatia.pdf
  142. # [18:01] <Zakim> +MaRakow
  143. # [18:01] <kawabata> zakim, ??P17 is kawabata
  144. # [18:01] <Zakim> +kawabata; got it
  145. # [18:02] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
  146. # [18:02] <BradK> I'm trying the ip phone, but I'm not sure which one is me. Maybe p21?
  147. # [18:02] * Joins: gregwhitworth (~gregwhitworth@public.cloak)
  148. # [18:02] <glazou> BradK, yes
  149. # [18:02] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 11 (35%), ??P21 (34%)
  150. # [18:02] <Zakim> +fantasai
  151. # [18:02] <Zakim> +florian
  152. # [18:02] <Zakim> + +999999aaaa
  153. # [18:02] <BradK> Zakim, ?.p21 is me.
  154. # [18:02] <Zakim> sorry, BradK, I do not recognize a party named '?.p21'
  155. # [18:03] <glazou> Zakim, ??P21 is BradK
  156. # [18:03] <Zakim> +BradK; got it
  157. # [18:03] <antonp> Zakim, aaaa is me
  158. # [18:03] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
  159. # [18:03] <BradK> Thanks
  160. # [18:03] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
  161. # [18:03] <Zakim> +TabAtkins
  162. # [18:03] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [IPcaller] (9%)
  163. # [18:03] * Joins: jet (~junglecode@public.cloak)
  164. # [18:03] <TabAtkins> ...wat
  165. # [18:03] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
  166. # [18:03] <Zakim> +dbaron
  167. # [18:03] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (19%), [IPcaller] (47%), Stearns (5%), BradK (13%)
  168. # [18:03] <BradK> Zakim mute me
  169. # [18:04] <Zakim> +koji
  170. # [18:04] <glazou> Zakim, mute BradK
  171. # [18:04] <Zakim> BradK should now be muted
  172. # [18:04] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  173. # [18:04] <Zakim> -kawabata
  174. # [18:04] <gregwhitworth> Zakim, Microsoft has me
  175. # [18:04] <Zakim> +gregwhitworth; got it
  176. # [18:04] * MaRakow would like some more hold music while we wait :)
  177. # [18:04] * Joins: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak)
  178. # [18:04] * BradK wasn't hearing noise. Did it lower when I was muted?
  179. # [18:04] <Zakim> +??P17
  180. # [18:04] <glazou> Zakim, [IPcaller] has AH_Miller
  181. # [18:04] <Zakim> +AH_Miller; got it
  182. # [18:05] <glazou> BradK, no
  183. # [18:05] <kawabata> zakim, ??P17 is kawabata
  184. # [18:05] <Zakim> +kawabata; got it
  185. # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P44
  186. # [18:05] <zcorpan> Zakim, ??p44 is zcorpan
  187. # [18:05] <Zakim> +zcorpan; got it
  188. # [18:05] <dael> plinss: Let's get started
  189. # [18:05] <Zakim> +ChrisL
  190. # [18:05] <BradK> I just found my phones
  191. # [18:05] <dael> plinss: Any additions?
  192. # [18:06] <dael> fantasai: I'd like to ask about backgrounds and borders if anyone can help with author outreach
  193. # [18:06] <BradK> I just found my phone' smite button anyway.
  194. # [18:06] <dael> plinss: Go ahead
  195. # [18:06] <BradK> Argh, mute button
  196. # [18:06] <dael> plinss: Anything you want to say?
  197. # [18:06] <dael> fantasai: We have a LC there's a couple of comments from MaRakow
  198. # [18:06] <dael> fantasai: What' I'm hesitating is we haven't gotten comments from spread-radius change
  199. # [18:06] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  200. # [18:06] <dael> ...: To make it continuous from 0 to non-zeor
  201. # [18:07] <Zakim> +glenn
  202. # [18:07] <Rossen_> zkim, microsoft has me
  203. # [18:07] <dael> ...: I'd like someone to help me write an article that helps explain it with pictures since from there prspective it's significant
  204. # [18:07] <dael> ???: I can help
  205. # [18:07] <Rossen_> zakim, microsoft has me
  206. # [18:07] <Zakim> +Rossen_; got it
  207. # [18:07] <dael> TabAtkins: We can write it on Thursday
  208. # [18:07] <dael> s/???/TabAtkins
  209. # [18:07] <dael> fantasai: Also grid layout is looking for review with algorythms
  210. # [18:07] <Zakim> +SteveZ
  211. # [18:08] <dael> plinss: There was a request for selectors non-element to FPWD
  212. # [18:08] * fantasai hasn't seen it
  213. # [18:08] <dael> plinss: Any obj?
  214. # [18:08] <plinss> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors-nonelement/
  215. # [18:08] <dael> glazou: Nope. I'm strongly in favor
  216. # [18:08] <dael> plinss: Okay.
  217. # [18:08] <ChrisL> no objection: got a link to ED?
  218. # [18:08] <dael> RESOLVED: FPWD of Non-element Selectors
  219. # [18:08] <dael> plinss: 1 req. I have to to add a level 1 to the title.
  220. # [18:08] * dbaron is still loading the spec
  221. # [18:09] <dael> plinss: We lose track when specs don't advertise their level
  222. # [18:09] <dael> fantasai: I feel like it's a piece of selectors which is at level 4 now
  223. # [18:09] * ChrisL selectors 4.1
  224. # [18:09] <dael> glazou: I'm glad to see this outside selectors b/c I don't think browsers will want to impl
  225. # [18:09] <dael> ...: At least not in CSS engine. It won't work as the rest of selectors
  226. # [18:10] <dael> plinss: I don't feel strongly about level, I just want to see some level added to it
  227. # [18:10] <dael> glazou: It's only a proposal for the time being and if it doesn't make progress and selectors 4 does I don't want to block selectors
  228. # [18:10] <dael> fantasai: Oh, yeah, it shouldn't be in 4
  229. # [18:10] <dael> glazou: It's good where it is
  230. # [18:10] <dbaron> I wonder if it's a problem that there's material in the Abstract ("not intended to be used in CSS") that's not in any other part of the document.
  231. # [18:10] <dael> plinss: At some point we should see where it fits, but not on the call
  232. # [18:10] <dael> Topic: calc() unit algebra
  233. # [18:11] <astearns> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0101.html
  234. # [18:11] <dael> TabAtkins: I can addres this. It's proposing how to deal with mailing deviding by united values
  235. # [18:11] <dael> ...: It works widely when we add more math op to calc
  236. # [18:11] <Zakim> -hober
  237. # [18:11] <dael> ...: Right now when you devide in calc it must be a number.
  238. # [18:12] <dael> ...: B/c we cannot in general case decide if a unit will be 0 at parse time
  239. # [18:12] <dael> ...: We like making division by 0 a parse time error
  240. # [18:12] * ChrisL proposes the NaN unit
  241. # [18:12] <dael> ...: This prop is we allow unit and division by 0 at parse is an error. Div at 0 not at parse becomes an infinity and infinities propigate
  242. # [18:12] * glazou ChrisL as soon as you don’t propose nyan :-)
  243. # [18:12] <dael> ...: At the end of the experssion is if it's an infinity it's just the largest value possible.
  244. # [18:13] <dael> ...: Impl have a unit if doesn't go beyond.
  245. # [18:13] <ChrisL> s/propigate/propogate
  246. # [18:13] <dael> ...: IN addition a few of the units that are recipicols would flip themselves around.
  247. # [18:13] <dael> ...: And that's basically it. It doesn't req tracking complicated unit algebra
  248. # [18:13] <ChrisL> s/recipicols/reciprocals/
  249. # [18:13] <dael> ...: For ex you can't mulitply links together. You have to do order so you don't stack units
  250. # [18:14] <dael> ...: The proposal seems simple to me. It doesn't seem like it would be complex extra tracking. The largest available size is wierd, but seems legit and it's continuous as the value appraoches 0
  251. # [18:14] <dael> ...: If we get a very small number we might exceed the largest allowed value anyway
  252. # [18:15] <dael> ...: I am totally willing to accept this into values and units and I want impl interest before I pull the trigger
  253. # [18:15] <Zakim> +hober
  254. # [18:15] <fantasai> This should go into V&U L4
  255. # [18:15] <dael> ChrisL: You said this is a large number rather than inifinity, what happens if you divide two infinities
  256. # [18:15] <SimonSapin> q+ two different behaviors for division by zero is weird
  257. # [18:15] * Zakim SimonSapin, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  258. # [18:15] <dael> TabAtkins: Just like an NaN it effects all things. If inifinity shows up in any context it becomes inifinity
  259. # [18:15] <dael> TabAtkins: Technically we need to trach the sign
  260. # [18:16] <dael> ChrisL: What about the recipicol.
  261. # [18:16] <SimonSapin> q+ to say two different behaviors for division by zero is weird
  262. # [18:16] * Zakim sees SimonSapin on the speaker queue
  263. # [18:16] <dael> TabAtkins: Let's see if the proposal tracks that.
  264. # [18:16] <dael> TabAtkins: Dividing by an infinity produces 0
  265. # [18:16] <ChrisL> in general its good and better than throwing an exception
  266. # [18:16] <dael> ??: Do we track the sign of 0?
  267. # [18:16] <SimonSapin> s/??/florian
  268. # [18:16] <dael> ??: If you do 1m - 0px from one end ...
  269. # [18:17] <glenn> -0 = 0
  270. # [18:17] <dbaron> q+ to say that length * length / length seems like it might be more desirable than the other aspects of unit algebra
  271. # [18:17] * Zakim sees SimonSapin, dbaron on the speaker queue
  272. # [18:17] <dael> TabAtkins: This is true. I can go either way either simplily not care about - 0 or let's be consistant and deviding by -0 creates negative
  273. # [18:17] <dael> florian: But we don't have it. If we have 1n-15px and you n transitions from 5 to smaller, you're going there but there's not trace of where you came from
  274. # [18:18] <dael> TabAtkins: You can type -0 and it means something distinct in JS
  275. # [18:18] <glenn> thinks it should not be treated as distinct
  276. # [18:18] <dael> TabAtkins: Coninuity does matter. If you're going from -0 to +0 it does matter
  277. # [18:18] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  278. # [18:18] <dael> florian: If you plan to cross yes, but if you plan to stop there the cont. arguement doesn't work
  279. # [18:18] <dael> TabAtkins: It works most of the time, but when you have a - link fly off to inifinity
  280. # [18:19] <dael> TabAtkins: In the proposal he calls that out and says we only have one 0 and it goes to + inifinity
  281. # [18:19] <dael> TabAtkins: Youc an get - infinity, but not from 0
  282. # [18:19] <dael> florian: It's defined byt doesn't give the arguement of cont. at the end
  283. # [18:19] <dael> TabAtkins: Int he case wehre you're approach - inf from one side it doesn't work. Where you're doing + it's fine and where you're crossing it's fine.
  284. # [18:20] <dael> TabAtkins: In a rare case we lose con't but it ususally wrosk
  285. # [18:20] <Zakim> -kawabata
  286. # [18:20] <Zakim> -zcorpan
  287. # [18:20] <dael> florian: I don't have a good grasp on use cases, but why is it rarer
  288. # [18:20] <BradK> -infinity / -0 = black hole?
  289. # [18:20] <dael> TabAtkins: b/c mostvalues are positive. We don't have many instances of negative
  290. # [18:20] <Zakim> +??P30
  291. # [18:20] <kawabata> zakim, ??P30 is me.
  292. # [18:20] <Zakim> +kawabata; got it
  293. # [18:20] <dael> florian: In general that makes sense but in relation to this I'm not sure what people would use this for. IT sounds reasonable, but I'm not sure
  294. # [18:21] <glazou> Zakim, mute kawabata
  295. # [18:21] <Zakim> kawabata should now be muted
  296. # [18:21] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
  297. # [18:21] <SimonSapin> Do we allow attr() on other non-literals in calc()? What does this do? <p data-z=0 style="width: calc(100px / attr(data-z))">
  298. # [18:21] <dael> TabAtkins: It's either that or adopt full floating point semenatics
  299. # [18:21] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (5%), TabAtkins (49%)
  300. # [18:21] * glazou dbaron, it kawabata echoing
  301. # [18:21] <dael> ChrisL: It prob is complex but is also prob being implemented
  302. # [18:21] * glazou it was
  303. # [18:21] <dael> TabAtkins: I can argue for simple, but if the complex is being use that's fine.
  304. # [18:21] <Zakim> +??P44
  305. # [18:21] <zcorpan> Zakim, ??p44 is zcorpan
  306. # [18:21] <Zakim> +zcorpan; got it
  307. # [18:21] <dael> TabAtkins: We can leave that open as an issue ands ee what people think with more time
  308. # [18:21] <ChrisL> s/implemented/implemented on to of IEEE floating point anyway/
  309. # [18:22] <plinss> ack
  310. # [18:22] <dael> ???: I like it in general, but don't like two different behaviours for division by 0
  311. # [18:22] <glazou> s/???/SimonSapin
  312. # [18:22] <dael> SimonSapin: It's not always obvious 0 division is detectable at parse time
  313. # [18:22] <dael> TabAtkins: It is completely detectable.
  314. # [18:22] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
  315. # [18:22] <glazou> Zakim, mute zcorpan
  316. # [18:22] <Zakim> zcorpan should now be muted
  317. # [18:23] <dael> plinss: When you can't detect at parse you fallback and when you can't you don't get the fallback behaviour
  318. # [18:23] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (61%), plinss (13%), SimonSapin (24%), florian (28%), fantasai (14%), TabAtkins (33%)
  319. # [18:23] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm fine with making detectable division by infinity use case as well. Unlike that's in the wild a lot
  320. # [18:23] * glazou Zakim me at 61% ??? I said four words
  321. # [18:23] * zcorpan sorry. i've muted myself on my end now
  322. # [18:23] <glazou> Zakim, unmute zcorpan
  323. # [18:23] <Zakim> zcorpan should no longer be muted
  324. # [18:23] <dael> dbaron: I'm fine as well, but want to note TabAtkins discription is wrong. Issue isn't if it has units, but is if you have to analize them
  325. # [18:24] <dael> TabAtkins: The calc() spec makes the statement that producing a 0 unit isn't the same as 0. It's still united and therefore invalid.
  326. # [18:24] <dael> TabAtkins: 5px/0px breaks current parsing
  327. # [18:24] <dael> dbaron: I'm answering a q about Zach's proposal. I'm fine with changing it and prob a good idea
  328. # [18:24] <plinss> ack SimonSapin
  329. # [18:24] <Zakim> SimonSapin, you wanted to say two different behaviors for division by zero is weird
  330. # [18:24] <dael> SimonSapin: I'd rather have only 1 behavious of div by 0
  331. # [18:24] * Zakim sees dbaron on the speaker queue
  332. # [18:24] <dbaron> s/changing it/changing it so that all division by zero uses the same rules/
  333. # [18:25] <dael> TabAtkins: Then all div by 0 uses this semeantic we don't have about parse time error checking
  334. # [18:25] <dael> ???: Is this the only issue?
  335. # [18:25] <zcorpan> what about 0/0 ?
  336. # [18:25] <zcorpan> also +infinity?
  337. # [18:25] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes, I think that's the issue. What I'm saying is all 0 division creates infinity and remove parse time detections
  338. # [18:25] <dael> TabAtkins: Does a resolution sound resonable.
  339. # [18:25] <plinss> q?
  340. # [18:25] * Zakim sees dbaron on the speaker queue
  341. # [18:25] <ChrisL> q?
  342. # [18:25] * Zakim sees dbaron on the speaker queue
  343. # [18:26] <dbaron> ack dbaron
  344. # [18:26] <Zakim> dbaron, you wanted to say that length * length / length seems like it might be more desirable than the other aspects of unit algebra
  345. # [18:26] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  346. # [18:26] <dael> dbaron: So I think the, I'm concerned about limits on unit algebra b/c length * length/length seems more useful and not that hard to track.
  347. # [18:26] <SimonSapin> zcorpan, 0/0 is +infinity in the proposal IIRC
  348. # [18:26] <dael> dbaron: I'd be inclinded to allow instead of forbid
  349. # [18:26] <dael> TabAtkins: What do you mean it's a bunch of int?
  350. # [18:26] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
  351. # [18:26] <dael> dbaron: You just have to track it
  352. # [18:27] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: ok. that's different from JS though
  353. # [18:27] <dael> TabAtkins: You'd be okay with length * time/length - time
  354. # [18:27] <dbaron> s/track it/track a bunch of dimensions/
  355. # [18:27] <dael> TabAtkins: We were going for simplicity, but if you think it's better I'm fine with that.
  356. # [18:27] <Bert> (I agree with dbaron: a / b * c should always be a * c / b, except, possibly, for overflow.)
  357. # [18:27] <dael> SimonSapin: I think it's non-obvious if we don't do that.
  358. # [18:27] <dael> TabAtkins: I have 0 problems with that.
  359. # [18:27] <SimonSapin> s/SimonSapin/florian (once)
  360. # [18:27] <MaRakow> Some of the unit conversions look a bit off to me but I'll catch up and respond on the mail (e.g. <number> / <resolution> = <length>?)
  361. # [18:28] <dael> TabAtkins: IN that case... Does adopting unit algerba to calc with a issue that we need to decide if we have to adobt floating point
  362. # [18:28] <dbaron> q+ to ask about implementor interest (Tab's original question)
  363. # [18:28] * Zakim sees dbaron on the speaker queue
  364. # [18:28] <dael> florian: I'm not sure if that right. Do we already have units?
  365. # [18:28] <dael> TabAtkins: We're liniar by nature
  366. # [18:28] <ChrisL> except for color values which are not linear
  367. # [18:28] <dael> florian: So length is the only case?
  368. # [18:28] <dael> TabAtkins: Correct.
  369. # [18:28] <dbaron> dbaron: we have time and frequency
  370. # [18:28] <dael> florian: That makes it easier.
  371. # [18:28] <plinss> ack dbaron
  372. # [18:28] <Zakim> dbaron, you wanted to ask about implementor interest (Tab's original question)
  373. # [18:28] <dbaron> Tab: and length and resolution
  374. # [18:28] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  375. # [18:29] <dael> dbaron: One thins TabAtkins asked is is there impl interest and we didn't disuss that
  376. # [18:29] <dael> dbaron: I think this is interesting, but not top of our priority list right now
  377. # [18:29] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
  378. # [18:29] <dael> TabAtkins: Okay. I don't know how to decide if that's good to add, though
  379. # [18:29] <dael> fantasai: I think that means add it to level 4
  380. # [18:29] <dael> TabAtkins: Okay. If we did that we'd need to add infinity to current level for future compat
  381. # [18:30] <dael> glazou: Sounds okay to me
  382. # [18:30] <dael> dbaron: What's the calc impt now?
  383. # [18:30] * glazou dael that was not me
  384. # [18:30] <dael> TabAtkins: Blink does. It's not usniversal but almost. I'm not sure about ??
  385. # [18:30] <dael> fantasai: IE does impl
  386. # [18:30] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
  387. # [18:30] <dael> dbaron: It sounds like if we have imterop we should do it
  388. # [18:30] <dbaron> s/we should do it/the new thing should be level 4/
  389. # [18:30] <dael> florian: Well, calc doesn't work with MQ
  390. # [18:30] <zcorpan> s/??/WebKit/
  391. # [18:31] <Zakim> +TabAtkins
  392. # [18:31] <dael> fantasai: That's a impl bug. The division should be in level 3 b/c it's deployed and impl
  393. # [18:31] <dael> plinss: There's an issues with division that's small and perhaps should be in 3 if implementors are willing to do it now, perhaps
  394. # [18:31] <fantasai> s/The division should be in level 3 b/c it's deployed and impl//
  395. # [18:31] <dael> dbaron: Maybe, but changing it is glossing over compat problem
  396. # [18:31] * zcorpan didn't hear properly
  397. # [18:32] <dael> TabAtkins: A moment ago you said you were fine, but you say you're fine will all 0 div into infinity
  398. # [18:32] <dael> dbaron: Yes, but it's a denet chunk of work
  399. # [18:32] <fantasai> fantasai^: We shouldn't add new stuff to L3, because there's a subset that's deployed and implemented and people need to know what that is.
  400. # [18:32] <dael> florian: Are you saying it's okay now or in future?
  401. # [18:32] <dael> TabAtkins: Future makes compat worse. I think Blink would be okay
  402. # [18:32] <dael> fantasai: What's effectied?
  403. # [18:32] <dael> TabAtkins: If you're dividing by 0 or a unit that becomes 0.
  404. # [18:33] <dael> fantasai: So currently that gets parsed to error so presumptively not many people are relying on it so let's ignore that
  405. # [18:33] <BradK> It could be used as a CSS browser filter
  406. # [18:33] <dael> dbaron: IN general we don't worry about compat when changing previous invalid into valid
  407. # [18:33] <dael> fantasai: That's kinda the point
  408. # [18:33] <fantasai> of forwards-compatible parsing
  409. # [18:34] <dael> TabAtkins: There is the chance you rely on it not working, but every change may have that campt problem
  410. # [18:34] <fantasai> fantasai^: calc(2em/5px) is also currently parsed as invalid, and we'd be changing that, too.
  411. # [18:34] <dael> TabAtkins: So res would be add calc algebra to level 4 and keep an issue in there about +0/-0 handling
  412. # [18:34] <dael> TabAtkins: Does that sound good?
  413. # [18:34] <dael> plinss: Any obj?
  414. # [18:34] <dael> RESOLVED: Add calc() algebra to level 4 and kepp an issue in there about +0/-0 handling
  415. # [18:35] <dael> plinss: What about the division behaviour in 3?
  416. # [18:35] <dael> TabAtkins: We can just change that in future when we do full unit algebra
  417. # [18:35] <dael> plinss: Is that okay? Okay.
  418. # [18:35] <dael> Topic: subgrid keyword
  419. # [18:35] <dael> fantasai: There was no ML discussion until last night.
  420. # [18:36] <Zakim> -kawabata
  421. # [18:36] <dael> fantasai: I don't think we have any consensus on ML
  422. # [18:36] <dael> TabAtkins: The main issue is there's not discussion b/c you're the one obj
  423. # [18:36] <Zakim> +??P30
  424. # [18:36] <dael> fantasai: Yes but we were going to discuss use cases and no one commented on that except dbaron whose questions I answered and Simon removed his objection
  425. # [18:36] <Zakim> -zcorpan
  426. # [18:36] <dael> plinss: So one more pass for ML discussion?
  427. # [18:37] <dael> SimonSapin: Yes, let's move on.
  428. # [18:37] <fantasai> s/objection/support for removing the feature/
  429. # [18:37] <SimonSapin> s/SimonSapin:/???:/
  430. # [18:37] <astearns> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0184.html
  431. # [18:37] <Zakim> +??P44
  432. # [18:37] <zcorpan> Zakim, ??p44 is zcorpan
  433. # [18:37] <Zakim> +zcorpan; got it
  434. # [18:37] <dael> Topic: % Margins/padding on grid/flexbox
  435. # [18:37] <fantasai> s/???:/rossen:/
  436. # [18:37] <dael> TabAtkins: This was raised by 2 people seperately
  437. # [18:37] * plinss zakim, who is making noise?
  438. # [18:37] <kawabata> zakim, ??p30 is me
  439. # [18:37] <Zakim> +kawabata; got it
  440. # [18:37] * Zakim plinss, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: plinss (4%), fantasai (34%), zcorpan (9%)
  441. # [18:37] * zcorpan muted himself now
  442. # [18:37] <SimonSapin> s/removed his objection/retracted his position that was in favor of punting/
  443. # [18:37] <dael> TabAtkins: They argued current behavious of flexbox is different than how it works in block where vertical positions are resolved against width
  444. # [18:38] <dael> TabAtkins: They say this is inconcsistant and allows certain hacks that allow you to use % padding
  445. # [18:38] <dael> TabAtkins: They argue we should revert to previous version like Block
  446. # [18:38] <dael> TabAtkins: And where flexbox and grid should be consistant, we should change grid too
  447. # [18:39] <dael> TabAtkins: WE had done this in grid and then back imported to flexbox
  448. # [18:39] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  449. # [18:39] <dael> TabAtkins: I can go either way, but I strongly think they should be consistant. Either works, but I want to hear from impl so we edit one way or another
  450. # [18:39] <BradK> Why was grid different?
  451. # [18:39] * plinss zakim, who is making noise?
  452. # [18:39] <dael> TabAtkins: I think Microsoft felt okay with changing flex, but wanted to keep grid the same. Can someone explain why it's okay to break consistancy?
  453. # [18:40] * Zakim plinss, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (9%), fantasai (9%), [Microsoft.a] (66%)
  454. # [18:40] <dael> Rossen_: The arguement for keeping same length for % resolution kinds makes sense to me. We have a sign compat hit if we changed grid at this point
  455. # [18:40] <dbaron> q+ to comment on why vertical makes sense
  456. # [18:40] * Zakim sees dbaron on the speaker queue
  457. # [18:40] <dael> Rossen_: I'm not sure we can make sure a deep change for apps using grid.
  458. # [18:40] <dael> Rossen_: So our concern is breaking compat. I hear you and conisstancy is important between flex and grid
  459. # [18:41] <dael> Rossen_: I'm not sure we can make a comprimise. I need to go dig into data and see how much breakage.
  460. # [18:41] <dael> Rossen_: We have enough apps built on % resolution from height in grid, but not for flex.
  461. # [18:41] <dael> Rossen_: That's the reasoning.
  462. # [18:41] <dael> TabAtkins: Okay.
  463. # [18:41] <dael> TabAtkins: If necessary we could work around that compat issue with as switch that's one way for legacy and another way for the rest
  464. # [18:42] <dael> Rossen_: That's always...havingt he ability to take relative size resolution from height or width...if you can choose from height now width...
  465. # [18:42] * plinss zakim, who is making noise?
  466. # [18:42] <dael> Rossen_: That would be cool if you could do it universally, but we don't have that
  467. # [18:42] <dael> Rossen_: Are you suggesting a switch like that?
  468. # [18:42] * Zakim plinss, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: fantasai (60%), TabAtkins (34%), [Microsoft.a] (61%)
  469. # [18:43] <dael> TabAtkins: It's a resolution to the problem and portentially interesting b/c it would let you use vertical % on block
  470. # [18:43] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm okayw ith this and if this makes everyone happy it's good
  471. # [18:43] * fantasai is unsure what we're accepting here
  472. # [18:43] <dael> Rossen_: Let us see what we can find out interenally the baddness a change to % resolution would create.
  473. # [18:43] <plinss> ack dbaron
  474. # [18:43] <Zakim> dbaron, you wanted to comment on why vertical makes sense
  475. # [18:43] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  476. # [18:43] <dael> Rossen_: For now I'd say flex should go back to the rest of CSS and we need to decide what it would do to us
  477. # [18:44] <BradK> -ms-grid-padding-percent-sizing: ??
  478. # [18:44] <dael> dbaron: I think there's a good bit of logic to changing. The block layout is based on tradition width is input, height is putput
  479. # [18:44] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
  480. # [18:44] <dael> dbaron: In flex and grid there isn't that big difference and having this wierd difference breaks the model that is actually more selemtric
  481. # [18:45] <dael> dbaron: And it think it ought to be more semetric and having the way flex is spec'ed is a good thing
  482. # [18:45] <fantasai> symmetric
  483. # [18:45] <dael> TabAtkins: I think that's why fantasai and I saw grid was doing semetric, we switched felxbox to it
  484. # [18:45] <dael> TabAtkins: If we stay semetric, that would address microsoft's concerns, it would make our impl less happy, but it's not a huge deal for us
  485. # [18:45] <dael> ??: I was going through the mail, do they want to change it back so it's more consistant with doc centric?
  486. # [18:46] <dbaron> s/??/Rossen/
  487. # [18:46] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes, theri agruement is based on expectations. You can use % padding to control an aspect ratio, but I'd say we can control aspect ratio directoly
  488. # [18:46] <dael> TabAtkins: there's also an issue about the layout for the containing block, but that's not big
  489. # [18:47] <fantasai> I think the use case for having both reference width isn't aspect ratios, but rather having consistent padding in both dimensions while having that padding respond to space available
  490. # [18:47] <dael> Rossen_: So going back to resolving width and height, I have to think more about impl, but I'm pretty sure it's not a stretch to allow behaviour controlled at container level
  491. # [18:47] <dael> Rossen_: Where you have either traditional witdh or this and we can argue which is default
  492. # [18:47] <dael> Rossen_: That way authors can have doc centric or more semetric behavious
  493. # [18:48] <dael> TabAtkins: But if the current is the default, there's less reason for a flag, I introduced that for compat. It would be somewhat useful, but not worth effort
  494. # [18:48] <dael> TabAtkins: Based on the discussion so far I think we can keep current and maybe investigate sep. property to switch
  495. # [18:48] <dael> TabAtkins: Is that okay with you dbaron?
  496. # [18:48] <dael> dbaron: That's fine. I'm uneasy about switchs
  497. # [18:49] <dael> TabAtkins: So I thinkw e should res to keep current behaviour where % vertical padding/margins resolve against heigth
  498. # [18:49] <dael> TabAtkins: And as a seperate action investigate if a switch is useful
  499. # [18:49] <dael> TabAtkins: Any obj to the resolution?
  500. # [18:49] <dael> plinss: Doens't sound like it
  501. # [18:49] <dael> RESOLVED: keep current behaviour where % vertical padding/margins resolve against heigth
  502. # [18:49] <dael> TabAtkins: I'll investigate the switch
  503. # [18:50] <dael> Topic: Item height when max-height applied to flex container
  504. # [18:50] <astearns> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0292.html
  505. # [18:50] <dael> TabAtkins: This is a simple tweek to flex brought up by gregwhitworth
  506. # [18:50] <dael> TabAtkins: If flex is indefinite but has a max height and the contect is bigger than max, does flex item grow to contain or is content constrained
  507. # [18:51] <gregwhitworth> You're right
  508. # [18:51] <dael> TabAtkins: Spec says item should...I forget, hang on.
  509. # [18:51] <dael> TabAtkins: The flex item gets set to 150px to size of content and overflows the constrainged flex container
  510. # [18:51] <dael> TabAtkins: Blink is different and makes felx item stay the size of flex continaer
  511. # [18:52] <Zakim> -kawabata
  512. # [18:52] <dael> TabAtkins: This is same as if you set a height instead of max heigth
  513. # [18:52] <dael> TabAtkins: Some people think this makes sense.
  514. # [18:52] <dael> TabAtkins: Suggestion is we change spec slightly so that a max height on flex container constrains item
  515. # [18:52] <Zakim> +??P30
  516. # [18:52] <Zakim> -zcorpan
  517. # [18:52] <Zakim> +??P52
  518. # [18:52] <tantek> Zakim, ??p52 is tantek
  519. # [18:52] <Zakim> +tantek; got it
  520. # [18:53] <Zakim> +??P44
  521. # [18:53] <dael> fantasai: So how flex should work is you layout contents and max height is violated, you relayout and this change seems to make sense where violating max height doesn't work
  522. # [18:53] <zcorpan> Zakim, ??p44 is zcorpan
  523. # [18:53] <Zakim> +zcorpan; got it
  524. # [18:53] <dael> TabAtkins: I agree. The change would be consistant with how it should work
  525. # [18:53] <dael> fantasai: If there's other inconsistant we should change that
  526. # [18:53] <fantasai> s/flex/max-height/
  527. # [18:53] <antonp> +1 for encouraging consistency with the principle that fantasai described
  528. # [18:53] <fantasai> s/relayout with the max height as height/
  529. # [18:53] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm not sure where, but perhaps where we have aspect ratios, but if there's nother changes I'm happy to bring them to the list
  530. # [18:53] <fantasai> er
  531. # [18:53] <fantasai> s/relayout/relayout with the max height as height/
  532. # [18:54] <dael> TabAtkins: For now is there any obj to changing the algorythm to match Blink
  533. # [18:54] <dael> TabAtkins: Fireforx imp is for that and I believe gregwhitworth is for it from IE too
  534. # [18:54] <dael> TabAtkins: So any obj?
  535. # [18:54] * Joins: ar (~ar@public.cloak)
  536. # [18:54] <dael> RESOLVED to change the spec's max-height impl to match Blink's impl
  537. # [18:55] <dael> gregwhitworth: How does that compere with Firefox and Webkit
  538. # [18:55] <dbaron> s/gregwhitworth/glennadams/
  539. # [18:55] <dael> TabAtkins: Webkit matches blink, firefox and IE impl current spec, but the impl are for making the change.
  540. # [18:55] <dael> glenn: Okay.
  541. # [18:55] * dbaron is skeptical that we'll agree how to define the box tree in 5 minutes
  542. # [18:55] * dbaron isn't sure if that's what the agenda item is about, though
  543. # [18:55] <dael> Topic: Box model/render tree
  544. # [18:56] <dael> TabAtkins: It's better to move to a different topic
  545. # [18:56] <dael> plinss: Okay. We'll come back
  546. # [18:56] <dael> Topic: :role() selector
  547. # [18:56] <astearns> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0099.html
  548. # [18:56] <dael> TabAtkins: The original thread was for a pseudo-calss that match arrea roles
  549. # [18:57] <SimonSapin> s/arrea/ARIA/
  550. # [18:57] <dael> TabAtkins: That seemed acceptable to me but a recent addendum to the thread that said some aren't computed until layout, so having a pseudo would create bad dependancies.
  551. # [18:57] * fantasai thinks we should do the Last Combinator topic, it will hopefully fit in 4 min
  552. # [18:57] <dael> TabAtkins: Does anyone have insight into this?
  553. # [18:57] <dael> tantek: It seems similar to old appearence prop but that was in other direction
  554. # [18:57] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
  555. # [18:57] <dbaron> It seems like a good idea, except for the issue you just mentioned about ARIA roles not being computed until layout.
  556. # [18:57] <dael> TabAtkins: The ideal is it's most useful for query selector
  557. # [18:58] <dael> tantek: I'm concerned that ARIA would be effective by layout
  558. # [18:58] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
  559. # [18:58] <dael> tantek: That's my resolnce so we can resolve in a good way
  560. # [18:58] <dbaron> s/effective/affected/
  561. # [18:58] <dael> TabAtkins: I think we should take this to the list and ask how it happens
  562. # [18:58] <dael> tantek: ARIA affects the semeantic and not the layout and we can do a pseduo based on that. That makes sense to me
  563. # [18:58] <dael> TabAtkins: Let's continue on the list
  564. # [18:59] <astearns> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0230.html
  565. # [18:59] <dael> Topic: The LAst Grammar Combinator
  566. # [18:59] <fantasai> summary: need combinator for "one or more, in this order"
  567. # [18:59] <dael> TabAtkins: I argue we have 6 common grammer combinations of which we can exress 5
  568. # [18:59] <fantasai> proposal: Use ?? as combinator
  569. # [18:59] <dael> TabAtkins: We've talked about this before but couldn't get a good syntax and there was general malase about adding more syntax
  570. # [19:00] <dael> TabAtkins: I think the usecase is common. We often have a thing with a main content and a fallback and you need to expess something, but don't care which one
  571. # [19:00] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
  572. # [19:00] <dael> TabAtkins: In order to do that now you need to do a lot of tricks. It's not easy and unclear and gets worse with 3 terms
  573. # [19:00] <fantasai> example:
  574. # [19:00] <fantasai> [left | right] |
  575. # [19:00] <fantasai> [left | right]? [<length> | <percentage>]
  576. # [19:00] * tantek thinks this is not a 3 minute topic.
  577. # [19:00] <fantasai> becomes
  578. # [19:00] * dbaron wonders if we should really be designing syntaxes this complicated
  579. # [19:00] * glazou neither
  580. # [19:00] <dael> TabAtkins: So I propose we plug this hole so out 2x3 matrix of combinators is complete.
  581. # [19:00] * tantek or even a 0 minute topic at this point ;)
  582. # [19:00] <fantasai> [left | right] ?? [<length> | <percentage> ]
  583. # [19:01] <dael> TabAtkins: I propose we use ?? for the combinator. It also matches combinator which is 0 or more which you do with juxtipose. It put the ? between instead if on either end
  584. # [19:01] <dael> TabAtkins: So any obj?
  585. # [19:01] <dael> fantasai: I put an ex in the IRC
  586. # [19:01] <tantek> wow ?? looks like an error
  587. # [19:01] <dael> dbaron: ?? Seems odd.
  588. # [19:01] <plinss> ¿?
  589. # [19:01] <dael> TabAtkins: We're open to other idea. That was just what came to mind for me
  590. # [19:01] <MaRakow> &|
  591. # [19:01] <dael> plinss: Any thoughts?
  592. # [19:01] * fantasai would be happy with ¿
  593. # [19:02] * glazou we should start using emojis
  594. # [19:02] <tantek> interrobang?
  595. # [19:02] <dael> TabAtkins: If the idea is okay and want to talk more syntax, that's fine. We've got a thread so please comment. I think this would make a lot of things better and just want good syntax
  596. # [19:02] <Zakim> -hober
  597. # [19:02] <Zakim> -zcorpan
  598. # [19:02] <Zakim> -dbaron
  599. # [19:02] <Zakim> -glazou
  600. # [19:02] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  601. # [19:02] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
  602. # [19:02] <dael> plinss: Okay, that's the top of the hour. I'll talk to you next week, well, I won't be here, but the week after.
  603. # [19:02] <Zakim> -BradK
  604. # [19:02] <Zakim> -koji
  605. # [19:02] <Zakim> -ChrisL
  606. # [19:02] <Zakim> -plinss
  607. # [19:02] <Zakim> -glenn
  608. # [19:02] <Zakim> -florian
  609. # [19:02] <Zakim> -Bert
  610. # [19:02] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
  611. # [19:02] <Zakim> -fantasai
  612. # [19:02] <Zakim> -Stearns
  613. # [19:02] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
  614. # [19:02] <Zakim> -SteveZ
  615. # [19:02] * Quits: koji (~koji@public.cloak) ("Leaving...")
  616. # [19:02] <Zakim> -??P30
  617. # [19:02] <Zakim> -dael
  618. # [19:02] <Zakim> -MaRakow
  619. # [19:02] <Zakim> -tantek
  620. # [19:02] * Parts: kawabata (~uid24584@public.cloak)
  621. # [19:02] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
  622. # [19:02] <Zakim> -antonp
  623. # [19:02] * Quits: gregwhitworth (~gregwhitworth@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  624. # [19:02] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
  625. # [19:02] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
  626. # [19:02] <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, dael, glazou, SimonSapin, Stearns, hober, Bert, MaRakow, kawabata, fantasai, florian, +999999aaaa, BradK, antonp, TabAtkins, dbaron, koji, gregwhitworth,
  627. # [19:02] <Zakim> ... AH_Miller, zcorpan, ChrisL, [Microsoft], glenn, Rossen_, SteveZ, tantek
  628. # [19:02] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Saying "either A or B, or both" is not overly complex.
  629. # [19:03] * Parts: AH_Miller (~mike@public.cloak) (AH_Miller)
  630. # [19:03] <TabAtkins> It happens in lots of places for simple reasons - image() wants "a list of urls" and/or "a fallback color". The <picture> sizes='' attribute wants "a list of MQ/size pairs" and/or "a fallback size".
  631. # [19:03] * Quits: dael (~dael@public.cloak) ("")
  632. # [19:03] * Parts: florian (~Adium@public.cloak) (florian)
  633. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> In essence, this is the "and/or" combinator.
  634. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> (I suspect that's why &| came up as a suggestion in previous discussions of this.)
  635. # [19:04] <zcorpan> &/?
  636. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> Maybe just // ?
  637. # [19:05] <TabAtkins> Or is that still too associated with comments?
  638. # [19:05] <MaRakow> || means one or more with comma separation, right?
  639. # [19:05] <MaRakow> because normally || would be the logical notation
  640. # [19:05] <TabAtkins> MaRakow: No, you're thinking of multipliers.
  641. # [19:06] <TabAtkins> <foo># is "one or more repetitions, with commas".
  642. # [19:06] <MaRakow> o right
  643. # [19:06] <TabAtkins> a || b means "a or b or both, in any order".
  644. # [19:06] <TabAtkins> Sorry, my use of the terms "one or more" was ambiguous.
  645. # [19:06] <TabAtkins> One or more among these choices, not one or more repetitions.
  646. # [19:07] <zcorpan> http://picture.responsiveimages.org/#valid-source-size-list is the current spec for sizes="" which could use this
  647. # [19:07] <TabAtkins> [a? b?]!
  648. # [19:07] <TabAtkins> With ! meaning "can't be empty"?
  649. # [19:08] <zcorpan> that looks ok to me
  650. # [19:09] <zcorpan> [ <source-size>* [ , <source-size-value> ]? ]!
  651. # [19:09] <TabAtkins> [ <source-size># [ , <source-size-value> ]? ]! , rather.
  652. # [19:10] <TabAtkins> But dammit, commas strike again!
  653. # [19:10] <zcorpan> right
  654. # [19:10] <TabAtkins> I think we need to just express in the grammar that commas always implicitly must be omitted if the two options they separate are missing.
  655. # [19:11] <TabAtkins> Or if it separates the first/last from the rest in a juxtaposed list, must be omitted if the first/last is missing.
  656. # [19:11] <TabAtkins> I'd like to say:
  657. # [19:11] <TabAtkins> [ <source-size>#? , <source-size-value>? ]!
  658. # [19:12] <zcorpan> that seems reasonable
  659. # [19:13] <TabAtkins> I'm warming to the use of ! to mean "required".
  660. # [19:13] <TabAtkins> And it means no new combinators, which is nice, because I seriously do still have to think about what && means every damn time.
  661. # [19:14] <TabAtkins> And regularly try to write it when I mean what we were discussing today.
  662. # [19:14] <zcorpan> i don't know if `[ <source-size>#? , <source-size-value>? ]!` is more understandable than `<source-size>#+ [ , <source-size-value> ]? | <source-size-value>`
  663. # [19:15] <zcorpan> but the latter might become hairy if more stuff gets added
  664. # [19:16] <TabAtkins> Note that #+ is invalid.
  665. # [19:16] <TabAtkins> You can't stack multipliers like that.
  666. # [19:16] <zcorpan> oops. it should be just # ?
  667. # [19:17] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  668. # [19:17] <TabAtkins> Meant to fix taht a while ago, but forgot.
  669. # [19:20] * Quits: BradK (~bradk@public.cloak) ("Buh bye")
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  676. # [20:30] <fantasai> I don't like []!
  677. # [20:30] <fantasai> Looks like it's supposed to be a multiplier, and it's not
  678. # [20:31] <fantasai> also, too many brackets makes grammars hard to read
  679. # [20:31] <fantasai> // seems reasonable, it's like || except it requires ordering
  680. # [20:32] <fantasai> and // has a directionality to it that || doesn't
  681. # [20:38] <zcorpan> so what would the sizes grammar look like with // ?
  682. # [20:39] <TabAtkins> Commas actually make it impossible to use a combinator for the sizes attr. :/
  683. # [20:39] <TabAtkins> Goddam commas.
  684. # [20:39] <fantasai> heh
  685. # [20:39] <TabAtkins> (Any separator, really.)
  686. # [20:40] <zcorpan> >,>
  687. # [20:41] * Joins: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak)
  688. # [20:42] <TabAtkins> Just allow commas between the two characters of the combinator!
  689. # [20:45] <zcorpan> that's right
  690. # [20:46] <TabAtkins> I... guess I'm not too opposed to that.
  691. # [20:46] <zcorpan> at least we'd have an opportunity for having emoticons in the grammar
  692. # [20:47] <TabAtkins> &_&
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  708. # Session Close: Thu Apr 24 00:00:01 2014

The end :)