/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-05-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon May 19 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #css
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  6. # [00:43] <sgalineau> just read dauwhe's comment about *30 hours* of travel. Will now introduce him with 'He travels at the speed of specs'
  7. # [01:02] <liam> "I shall put a girdle about the earth in 40 specs!"
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  9. # [01:12] <sgalineau> :)
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  11. # [01:15] <dbaron> I guess the meeting room should probably be open by 8:30-ish, Ihope
  12. # [01:15] <dbaron> so I guess I should head over (getting some breakfast on the way)
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  26. # [02:09] <glazou> test
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  29. # [02:10] <clilley> zakim, this meeting spans midnight
  30. # [02:10] <Zakim> I don't understand 'this meeting spans midnight', clilley
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  41. # [02:14] <dbaron> Rossen is getting "Permission denied" trying to join IRC via the Web UI
  42. # [02:14] <dbaron> oh, never mind
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  45. # [02:15] <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/seoul-2014#proposed-topics-for-the-meeting
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  47. # [02:17] <astearns_> SteveZ: the phone is not yet set up
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  50. # [02:19] <dael> [agenda discussion]
  51. # [02:19] * Parts: plh (~plh@public.cloak)
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  53. # [02:20] <dael> scribenick: dael
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  55. # [02:21] * glenn_ is now known as glenn
  56. # [02:22] <dael> glazou: let's start
  57. # [02:22] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
  58. # [02:22] <dael> TabAtkins: Did we do intros?
  59. # [02:22] <dael> glazou: Everyone except you two
  60. # [02:23] <dael> glazou: We were about to discuss agenda.
  61. # [02:23] <dael> glazou: We have requests for call ins, I don't know what peopler equested
  62. # [02:23] <dael> s/equested/requested
  63. # [02:23] <zcorpan> s/peopler/people/
  64. # [02:23] * clilley beep
  65. # [02:23] <clilley> s/^G/null/
  66. # [02:24] * Joins: plh (~plh@public.cloak)
  67. # [02:24] <dael> dbaron: There are cosntrants on call in times.
  68. # [02:24] <dael> dbaron: Europeans want afternoon, US early. There's one session with Steve and Krit so there's only on bock for that
  69. # [02:24] <dael> dbaron: I think it would be early afternoon
  70. # [02:25] <dael> glazou: Topics were inline and what else?
  71. # [02:25] <dbaron> 1pm-2pm
  72. # [02:25] <dael> dbaron: There were other from steve, bert, simon
  73. # [02:25] <dael> shane: and liam
  74. # [02:25] <dael> dbaron: And we can't do them all together
  75. # [02:25] <astearns_> s/shane/dauwhe/
  76. # [02:25] <dael> glazou: So inline would be today after lunch?
  77. # [02:25] * liam waves but can probably call in at any time
  78. # [02:25] <dael> dbaron: I think there was prefernce for not today
  79. # [02:26] <dael> dauwhe: I'd like to do something for that tonight
  80. # [02:26] <dael> dbaron: Remember today is Sunday for US
  81. # [02:26] <dael> dauwhe: So do this after lunch tomorrow
  82. # [02:26] <SteveZ> I cannot do today after lunch but can do it on Tues or Wed
  83. # [02:26] <dael> plinss: Simon wants values, grid, box model
  84. # [02:26] <dael> glazou: Inline is tomorrow after lunch
  85. # [02:27] * Joins: kangil (~d25fff94@public.cloak)
  86. # [02:28] * astearns_ tab and elika may be elegantly dressed, but I prefer Ted's sartorial choice today
  87. # [02:28] <glazou> I'll be glaz for this meeting
  88. # [02:28] <SteveZ> My requests were:
  89. # [02:28] <SteveZ> CSS Line Layout  SVG spec (a REC) defines most properties already. SVG WG would like to reference CSS Line Layout instead. Since there hasn't been progress for two years, how should SVG WG proceed?  Specify heuristics for fonts/font systems without enough font metric information.  Initial caps [would like to participate remotely - Liam] Footnotes in GCPM [would like to attend remotely - Liam]  Box Alignment  review next baseline-alignment sect[CUT]
  90. # [02:28] <dael> glaz: So what should we start with?
  91. # [02:28] <dael> glaz: What's a preferred topic?
  92. # [02:29] <dael> glaz: What's the highest priority?
  93. # [02:29] * liam hopes astearns_ will share a picture :)
  94. # [02:29] <dael> TabAtkins: I wouldn't mind values and units, esp. cust-ident
  95. # [02:29] <dael> plinss: Simon wants that in the afternoon
  96. # [02:29] <dael> glaz: How much time?
  97. # [02:29] <dael> TabAtkins: For all of values and units and hour
  98. # [02:29] <dael> plinss: So this afternoon for that
  99. # [02:29] <dael> glaz: Flexbox to CR?
  100. # [02:30] <dael> fantasai: I think we have one open issue
  101. # [02:30] <dael> fantasai: About computer value of flex as auto
  102. # [02:30] <dael> TabAtkins: We can do flex this morning. Let's do 30 minutes
  103. # [02:30] <astearns_> s/computer/computed/
  104. # [02:30] <dael> glaz: I think we should do transistions animations issues. I thinkt hat needs to be moved along rec track
  105. # [02:31] <dael> plh: I agree
  106. # [02:31] <dael> glaz: Anyone wanting to call in?
  107. # [02:31] <dael> dbaron: Is sylvaing available to call in and does he want to?
  108. # [02:31] <dael> glaz: I don't have a message from him saying he wants to
  109. # [02:32] <dael> glaz: I got a personal message saying it's disappointing not being there, but dbaron is here and knows everything
  110. # [02:32] <dael> TabAtkins: WE can finish the calc discussion. It would be good to have simon.
  111. # [02:32] <dael> zcorpan: I'm here :)
  112. # [02:33] <dael> glaz: I don't think we're full for this morning
  113. # [02:33] <dael> plinss: All I have is flex, transitions/animations, and calc()
  114. # [02:33] <dael> glaz: Since Liam said he could attend, we can do footnotes in GCPM
  115. # [02:33] <dael> dauwhe: I'd prefer tomorrow
  116. # [02:33] <dael> plinss: Morning or afternoon?
  117. # [02:34] <dael> dauwhe: Doesn't matter. Liam is the only outside person
  118. # [02:34] <dael> glaz: Image values?
  119. # [02:34] <dael> TabAtkins: We can do that at any point
  120. # [02:34] <dael> plinss: This morning?
  121. # [02:34] <dael> TabAtkins: Yeah.
  122. # [02:34] * liam can call in whenever for footnotes
  123. # [02:34] <SteveZ> I would like to attend footnotes in GCPM
  124. # [02:35] <dael> plinss: Okay, so afternoon for Stevez?
  125. # [02:35] <dael> dbaron: I think he'd prefer morning
  126. # [02:35] <glazou> SteveZ: did you receive the webinar info?
  127. # [02:35] <dael> plinss: Let's keep it in the morning
  128. # [02:35] <SteveZ> Morning is better for both Liam and I
  129. # [02:35] <dael> dbaron: To be clear, it's 2:30am in France and 5:30pm yesterday in CA
  130. # [02:35] <dael> dauwhe: So tomorrow morning for that?
  131. # [02:35] <glazou> SteveZ: morning korean time?
  132. # [02:36] <dael> glaz: So for the afternoon we only have one topic
  133. # [02:36] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak)
  134. # [02:36] <SteveZ> Yes, morning Korean time
  135. # [02:36] <dael> plinss: Values and units so far
  136. # [02:36] <SteveZ> Preferably before 11AM Korean time
  137. # [02:36] <dael> glaz: We can do CSS3 text with Bert. He said later afternoon.
  138. # [02:37] <dael> s/later afternoon/later in the afternoon
  139. # [02:37] <dael> glaz: Right after that we cn do the CSS text from koji
  140. # [02:37] <dael> glaz: How much time for calc()?
  141. # [02:37] <dael> TabAtkins: We'll say a half hour
  142. # [02:37] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm not sure if we'll get through everything
  143. # [02:37] <SteveZ> Note CSS Text is on my list also
  144. # [02:38] <dael> glaz: For values and units and text this afternoon.
  145. # [02:38] <dael> plinss: This afternoon?
  146. # [02:38] <dael> glaz: Yeah.
  147. # [02:38] <SteveZ> Steve cannot do this afternoon
  148. # [02:38] <dael> glaz: oh. SteveZ wants to attend CSS text discussion
  149. # [02:39] <glazou> SteveZ: is csstext ok this afternoon korean time or you prefer morning korean time?
  150. # [02:39] <SteveZ> I did send an e-mail with the sessions I would like to attend
  151. # [02:39] <dbaron> Present: Chris Lilley, Daniel Glazman, Rossen Atanassov, David Baron, Glenn Adams, Jet Villegas, Koji Ishii, fantasai, Simon Pieters, Alan Stearns, Andrey Rybka, Adenilson Cavalcanti, Bruno Abinader, Dongwoo Joshua Im, Tab Atkins, Ted O'Connor, Dael Jackson, Peter Linss, Philippe Le Hegaret, Shane Stevens, Shinyu Murakami, Dave Cramer, 5 observers in the back
  152. # [02:40] <dael> glaz: SteveZ said he wants to attend line layout, fottnotes in GCPM, text alignment, lext and flexbox. That's a lot.
  153. # [02:40] * fantasai note to Dael, this scheduling session doesn't need to be formatted, minutes are just for us :)
  154. # [02:40] <dael> glaz: Okay.
  155. # [02:41] * fantasai also, if you press tab after typing gl, glazou will autocomplete
  156. # [02:41] * astearns_ glaz* is he who must not be named
  157. # [02:41] <dael> glaz: Let's start with flexbox
  158. # [02:41] <dael> TabAtkins: Okay.
  159. # [02:42] <SteveZ> My set of topics are in: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2014AprJun/0119.html
  160. # [02:42] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox/issues-lc-20140325
  161. # [02:42] <dael> TabAtkins: So fantasai do we have anything except auto
  162. # [02:42] <dael> fantasai: We got a few this week, but they're editorial
  163. # [02:42] <dael> fantasai: We can't do CR right now, but we do have the issue of the computation of auto
  164. # [02:42] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox/issues-lc-20140325#issue-13
  165. # [02:42] <dael> TabAtkins: Let's do that one quick
  166. # [02:43] <TabAtkins> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox/#flex-basis-property
  167. # [02:43] <dael> TabAtkins: Flex basis auto is confusing right now
  168. # [02:43] <dael> TabAtkins: If auto is value of flex spaces it means auto is that direction. Question is when it turns into that because it needs to do that to computer
  169. # [02:43] <dael> TabAtkins: Right now it's un-sec.
  170. # [02:43] * liam gets "This system isn't supported" from the webinar page, hmm, maybe will try from laptop
  171. # [02:43] <dael> TabAtkins: I proposed we should change so it transforms at computed value time
  172. # [02:44] <dael> TabAtkins: So a flexspace auto would become that value, but the confising bit it could also be auto
  173. # [02:44] <dael> fantasai: We discussed this two years ago.
  174. # [02:44] <dael> fantasai: We concluded that because auto means two things and it's inhereted we get odd behaviour
  175. # [02:45] <dael> fantasai: You don't get auto width you get auto, but anyone that's inhereting auto on flex it's rare
  176. # [02:45] <dael> fantasai: It's in theory confusing, but the lack of resolve is more confusing
  177. # [02:45] <dael> dbaron: Does respolution of inheret happen prior to computational phase
  178. # [02:45] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes. Similar to cascade
  179. # [02:45] <dael> dbaron: I've always thought that was wrong and it's not how we impl
  180. # [02:46] <dael> fantasai: So do we need to fix cascade?
  181. # [02:46] <dael> dbaron: I think that there are two was to explain doesn't matter as long as computed value went to itself
  182. # [02:46] <astearns_> s/respolution of inheret/resolution of inherit/
  183. # [02:46] <dael> dbaron: Now we're making that not true so now loc in cascade matters so impl might not match since they assumed equivenlency
  184. # [02:46] <dael> TabAtkins: So you're saying you processed at value computetion
  185. # [02:47] <dael> dbaron: Yes. I don't know if that's what other imp do and I don't know how to test in a black box
  186. # [02:47] * astearns_ is now known as astearns
  187. # [02:47] <dael> TabAtkins: Shane says he thinks they're same
  188. # [02:47] <dael> TabAtkins: We can change cascade.
  189. # [02:47] <dael> dbaron: Testing is worthwhile
  190. # [02:47] <dael> TabAtkins: But you say it's not detectable except flex
  191. # [02:47] <dael> dbaron: Impl might have to change their cascade to deal with it
  192. # [02:48] <dael> fantasai: before we have a use value of flex space.
  193. # [02:48] <dael> TabAtkins: It wasn't stted, but implied
  194. # [02:48] <dael> TabAtkins: We want to do it computed so it's right
  195. # [02:48] <dael> TabAtkins: We can still decide this independantly
  196. # [02:48] <dael> dbaron: It's odd for other reasons.
  197. # [02:48] <dael> TabAtkins: You can't feed GCS into style imeediatly
  198. # [02:48] <dael> TabAtkins: But we can't change that now. I made that mistake years ago
  199. # [02:48] <dael> fantasai: Or we leave things as is
  200. # [02:49] <dael> TabAtkins: Once we get use style
  201. # [02:49] <dael> TabAtkins: So are we okay witht aht wierdness of setting to computed value?
  202. # [02:49] <dael> dbaron: I'd prefer a use value time thing
  203. # [02:49] <dael> TabAtkins: Is it okay for use to resolve to an end value?
  204. # [02:49] <dael> dbaron: How would that happen?
  205. # [02:49] * dauwhe liam: I was able to log into the webinar from my mac.
  206. # [02:49] <dael> TabAtkins: I guess it would resolve to use value of width
  207. # [02:50] * liam notes only mac and windows are supported, i'm running Linux
  208. # [02:50] <dael> TabAtkins: That's prob. ok
  209. # [02:50] <dael> zcorpan: I didn't follow what you said
  210. # [02:50] <dael> TabAtkins: We can't change name of flex space auto value
  211. # [02:50] <glazou> SteveZ: can you hear well through Webinar?
  212. # [02:50] <dael> zcorpan: But you can change behaviour
  213. # [02:50] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
  214. # [02:50] <dael> TabAtkins: I was wanting to keep things that went to length to be at computer value time, but it's not huge
  215. # [02:50] <dael> fantasai: So close no change?
  216. # [02:51] <dael> TabAtkins: Well, close and actually specify at use value time
  217. # [02:51] <zcorpan> s/flex space/flex-basis/
  218. # [02:51] <dael> fantasai: close, clarify, no change
  219. # [02:51] <dael> TabAtkins: Yep.
  220. # [02:51] <dael> TabAtkins: That's acceptable to me
  221. # [02:52] <dbaron> s/specify/specify that flex-basis is resolved at/
  222. # [02:52] <dael> TabAtkins: We're good. So res would be close this, spec propertly the flex space auto flips to width.height at use value time
  223. # [02:52] <dbaron> s/flex space/flex-basis/
  224. # [02:52] <dael> glaz: obj?
  225. # [02:52] <dael> RESOLVED: Close issue, spec propertly the flex-basis auto flips to width.height at use value time
  226. # [02:52] <dbaron> s/use value/used value/ (multiple times)
  227. # [02:52] <dael> glaz: Next issue?
  228. # [02:52] * Joins: plinss_ (~plinss@public.cloak)
  229. # [02:53] * dauwhe liam: ugh. I guess corporate america hasn't noticed that people use Linux
  230. # [02:53] <dael> fantasai: There's one from greg that we have to think through
  231. # [02:53] <dael> fantasai: Ther rest is editorial
  232. # [02:53] <dael> TabAtkins: Greg posted one that we didn't get to that we'll have to work on tonight
  233. # [02:53] * Quits: plinss_ (~plinss@public.cloak) (plinss_)
  234. # [02:53] <dael> TabAtkins: I'd like to discuss algorithm changes
  235. # [02:53] <dael> TabAtkins: The only major change since CR was...I said at last F2F I wanted to change alg. so that as value approached 0 it was nice
  236. # [02:54] <dael> TabAtkins: It ended up being a bit of a rewrite and recently dholbert came up with a way to do the same, but closer to org language
  237. # [02:54] <dael> TabAtkins: I think it's right, but if anyone is interested in alg. please make sure it maintains proper behaviour
  238. # [02:55] <dael> TabAtkins: That'st he only issue left. I have both versions in spec and flagged. WE're trying to do the CR version.
  239. # [02:55] <dael> TabAtkins: It looks like the old one, but approaches 0 properly
  240. # [02:55] <dael> fantasai: WE folded in the changes
  241. # [02:55] * glazou stopped the fan, too noisy, please let me know when it gets too warm, we'll turn it back on during the break
  242. # [02:55] <dael> dbaron: This confuses me because you're talking about CR predating LC
  243. # [02:55] <dael> TabAtkins: So 9.7.3 is what we're going for
  244. # [02:55] <dbaron> Tab: trying to go for 9.7.2, should be equivalent to 9.7.1
  245. # [02:56] <dael> TabAtkins: WE need to address greg's issue tonight and make editorial. I think we can ask for CR tomorrow
  246. # [02:56] <dael> TabAtkins: I think that's all on Flexbox right now
  247. # [02:56] <dael> glaz: Okay
  248. # [02:56] <dael> glaz: We'll move to transitions
  249. # [02:56] <dael> Rossen_: One question. Where did we leave auto for absolutes
  250. # [02:56] <dael> TabAtkins: Would you like to discuss? It's no change
  251. # [02:57] <dael> Rossen_: It's open on the list. We can do now or just us.
  252. # [02:57] <dael> TabAtkins: Let's do here
  253. # [02:57] <dael> TabAtkins: Right now we have spec that grid and flex are similar for static position of absolutely posistioned child of flexbox
  254. # [02:57] <dael> TabAtkins: The model now is you act as if the abspos is the only child according to alignment and where it goes is the static position
  255. # [02:58] <dael> TabAtkins: If you set justify center you'll have a thing where abspos is centered in flex
  256. # [02:58] <dael> TabAtkins: Rossen_ said that was confusing since you're not getting ceter from the flex.
  257. # [02:58] <dael> TabAtkins: He things that would only apply if that's containing for abspos.
  258. # [02:58] <dael> TabAtkins: I don'th ave strong option, but I'm okay if we make this in the containing block cae, but I also don't have the problem
  259. # [02:59] <dael> fantasai: I pref children of the flex box that have their continaing block be the flex box and the static position of the item is the same.
  260. # [02:59] <dael> fantasai: Everywhere else if you pick static pos of item, that's the pos regardless of containing block
  261. # [02:59] <dbaron> fantasai: I want the static position of the item not to depend on what its containing block is (like everywhere else).
  262. # [02:59] <dael> fantasai: If we do this we have to cacluclate different ways
  263. # [03:00] <dael> fantasai: I don't think that's a good inconcsitancy
  264. # [03:00] <dael> Rossen_: I agree. I don't want something different based on containing block
  265. # [03:00] <dael> Rossen_: What was into. in grid first. When we did it we wanted to align grid items in grid
  266. # [03:00] <dael> Rossen_: However, that was only abspos items in the grid, with the gird as the containing block
  267. # [03:01] <fantasai> Rossen_: That kindof violated the rule fantasai stated
  268. # [03:01] <dael> Rossen_: Basically, the problem is with abspos layout, you complute the static position where the element's natural position would have been
  269. # [03:01] <dael> Rossen_: Then the participation of the element is done and you don't need to reconsider.
  270. # [03:01] <dael> Rossen_: Once you're in containing block you figure out where the item will be and than you size the item
  271. # [03:02] <dael> Rossen_: The problem with the way we have spec auto position, you have to go and fudge with static position to make it work so item appears centered in the flex box
  272. # [03:02] <dael> Rossen_: Even thought he position between flex and item is distant.
  273. # [03:02] <dael> Rossen_: What we wanted to propose is to not find the static position, but to find where the static position applies
  274. # [03:02] <dael> Rossen_: So instead of static as origin you can say it in relation to the box
  275. # [03:03] <dael> Rossen_: So you can work around the static position and center around it
  276. # [03:03] <dael> Rossen_: Instead of after you've computed, reverse engineering
  277. # [03:03] <dael> Rossen_: When I mentioned this on the ML, I said we should do this in position spec
  278. # [03:03] <dael> fantasai: So, you can see static position as a point to which the abspos is attanched
  279. # [03:03] <dael> Rossen_: Isn't it?
  280. # [03:03] <SteveZ> Elika you are breaking up on audio
  281. # [03:04] <dbaron> s/you can see/you (Rossen) concieve of/
  282. # [03:04] <dael> fantasai: In the other models you don't do it that way It's a box, not a point, and that doesn't make a difference
  283. # [03:04] <astearns> s/abspos is attached/abspos start start corner is attached/
  284. # [03:04] <dael> fantasai: So you say static pposition is start,start and you have a small abspos.
  285. # [03:04] <dael> fantasai: If you shift the item it won't be centered and will instead drift. This is odd and won't be useful.
  286. # [03:05] <dael> fantasai: It would be better if cetering kept the item inside the box
  287. # [03:05] <fantasai> s/odd/asymmetric/
  288. # [03:05] <dael> dbaron: I think Rossen_ is discribing a different way to get the same result.
  289. # [03:05] <dael> dbaron: I'm sceptical about this in the whole, and want to know about use cases
  290. # [03:05] <dael> TabAtkins: Largely it's so that you can achieve centering with abspos
  291. # [03:05] <dael> TabAtkins: Treating static more nievely, it seems dumb. It's not what you would want in any case
  292. # [03:06] <dael> TabAtkins: If you say just contenter center and it only uses that and goes to the side, it sounds stupid
  293. # [03:06] <dael> TabAtkins: In terms of author expectations, this is better
  294. # [03:06] <dael> fantasai: If we want to do dumb, t's always start, start corner
  295. # [03:06] <dbaron> I'd be happy with just start,start corner
  296. # [03:06] <dael> fantasai: If we're doing this and trying to make it useful, it's just ending up odd.
  297. # [03:07] <dael> fantasai: So we need to make this always work usefully
  298. # [03:07] * clilley OH "if we are going to do something dumb" (specifies dumb in detail. But a good dumb.
  299. # [03:07] <dael> dbaron: I'm okay with start start corner.
  300. # [03:07] <dael> dbaron: This is a lot of code, but right now you have the flexbox model and you can escape into the old model, oh and you can overlap your content
  301. # [03:07] <dael> TabAtkins: Okay.
  302. # [03:07] <fantasai> fantasai^: Either we should do something useful, or we should do something dumb and predictably useless.
  303. # [03:07] <fantasai> fantasai^: Trying to make it kinda smart but failing to be useful, is not useful
  304. # [03:07] <dael> dbaron: Is the disagreement the way to formulate?
  305. # [03:08] <dael> TabAtkins: I think so. I think his code assumes a simplier order. Rossen_ 's ultimate model let's us position static nievely and end in the right place
  306. # [03:08] <dael> dbaron: You may see static pos comutation as a seperate thing that can happen later
  307. # [03:08] <dael> dbaron: I'm happy with Rossen_ 's since it might be easier to impl
  308. # [03:08] <dael> TabAtkins: It shouldn't have anything detectable
  309. # [03:09] <dael> TabAtkins: The only things that play off are realpos, which isn't a thing
  310. # [03:09] <dbaron> Tab: There shouldn't be any detectable differences ... / dbaron: Famous last words.
  311. # [03:09] <dael> fantasai: I think if you want to computate static pos that if you store instead of a point, but as a box
  312. # [03:09] <dael> Rossen_: What's the relation between that and the box
  313. # [03:10] <dael> fantasai: You store as a rectangle so in the case of most things it's a 0 height, but depending on if you are, it'll be that or the size of the 0 height
  314. # [03:10] <dael> fantasai: Then it'll happen at the time of positioning. For flex it would be a flex container
  315. # [03:10] <dael> dbaron: I don't think it makes sens as a rectangle
  316. # [03:10] <dael> dbaron: To fit into existing you want an x coordinate and a y cordinate with top-center-bottom coordinate
  317. # [03:11] <dael> Rossen_: hich is what we did in grid
  318. # [03:11] <dbaron> s/x coordinate/x coordinate and left-right-center alignment/
  319. # [03:11] <dael> TabAtkins: Was this org. in grid and we changed it?
  320. # [03:11] <dael> TabAtkins: Are we okay with refom in those terms, assuming positioning will do this later and better?
  321. # [03:11] <dael> fantasai: Can we discuss the rectangle later, with a white board?
  322. # [03:11] <dael> TabAtkins: yes.
  323. # [03:12] <dael> Rossen_: When you start counting all the modes you'll have fun with a rectangle. As an impl I promise that a point will be conseptionally easier.
  324. # [03:12] <dael> Rossen_: I'm sure with a white board we can solve this in a few minutes
  325. # [03:12] <dael> TabAtkins: So for now let's resolve for what Rossen_ said
  326. # [03:12] <dael> fantasai: I don't want center and off to the side stuff
  327. # [03:12] <dael> Rossen_: Let me repeat
  328. # [03:13] <dael> TabAtkins: Rossen_ wants identical behaviour in a different way
  329. # [03:13] <dael> TabAtkins: Let me write out this resolution
  330. # [03:13] <TabAtkins> proposed resolution: Switch the flexbox/grid abspos model to be more naive, just positioning a 0x0 box as currently specified, but then also define that, based on alignment, the abspos child aligns relative to its static position differently. Same layout results should be achieved.
  331. # [03:14] <dael> TabAtkins: Okay.
  332. # [03:14] * liam hears loud whispering
  333. # [03:14] <dael> TabAtkins: Rossen_ is that right?
  334. # [03:14] <dael> Rossen_: Yep.
  335. # [03:14] * liam (it's not a problem but if you didn't want people on the phone to hear, don't do it next to the mic ;-) )
  336. # [03:14] <dael> fantasai: So maybe we have both models in the spec, one as a note so people can think about it
  337. # [03:14] <TabAtkins> Such that "justify-content: center" puts the static pos in the center of the flexbox, and the abspos aligns its *center* with the static pos, rather than its start edge.
  338. # [03:15] <dael> fantasai: I think for authors it would be easier, but for impl they want the details.
  339. # [03:15] <dael> TabAtkins: So. That sound fine for now?
  340. # [03:15] <fantasai> s/easier/easier to talk about aligning the abspos within teh box/
  341. # [03:15] <dael> Rossen_: For now. I think we're going in the right direction
  342. # [03:15] <dael> TabAtkins: Now we can do transforms.
  343. # [03:15] <fantasai> s/they want the details/we can formulate in terms of static position point/
  344. # [03:15] * TabAtkins liam, it wasn't meant for public
  345. # [03:15] <dael> glaz: So transitions/animations and OM issues
  346. # [03:15] * TabAtkins just the two of them whispering about something among themselves.
  347. # [03:16] <dael> dbaron: should we start with transitions? The issues are pretty different
  348. # [03:16] <dael> dbaron: So.
  349. # [03:16] <dael> dbaron: When we met in, I think a year ago
  350. # [03:16] <dael> dbaron: We had agreed to. we had an issue with a bunch of different ways for how transitions started.
  351. # [03:17] <dael> dbaron: No one liked thier own except Safari, so we had no proposals on the table
  352. # [03:17] <fantasai> s/Safari/Safari, who couldn't explain theirs/
  353. # [03:17] <dael> dbaron: I came up with one that people were okay with that we put in the spec, but at the time we had no impl
  354. # [03:17] <dael> dbaron: I think in Paris Shane said google had impl it.
  355. # [03:17] <dael> shans_: Some of it.
  356. # [03:17] <dael> dbaron: When I tried to impl in Geicko, I found a piece that didn't work.
  357. # [03:17] <fantasai> s/Geicko/Gecko/
  358. # [03:18] <dael> dbaron: I am hoping I will have some time in the next few weeks to think about a fix
  359. # [03:18] <fantasai> s/work/work, which Shane also ran into/
  360. # [03:18] * glazou types slower than fantasai, clearly
  361. # [03:18] <dael> dbaron: Basically the spec is based on haveing a coherent way to say when transitions start and how to start them
  362. # [03:18] * astearns s/glazou/everyone/
  363. # [03:18] <dael> shans_: This is the interation between transitions and animations?
  364. # [03:19] <dael> dbaron: The edits I made in the fall was transitions/animations and transitions on same prop depending on ancestors and descendant.
  365. # [03:19] * Joins: dino (~textual@public.cloak)
  366. # [03:19] <dael> dbaron: There's a bunch of hard cases whose behaviour changes based on the model.
  367. # [03:19] * hober waves at dino
  368. # [03:19] <dael> dbaron: There was a lot of disagreement on those cases.
  369. # [03:19] <dael> dbaron: We decided that we like the behvaiour from the model spec
  370. # [03:19] <dael> dbaron: Current breaks inturrupting of running transtions and that's what needs a fix
  371. # [03:20] <dael> dbaron: Other than that I think transitions is ready for LC. That's pretty significant
  372. # [03:20] <dael> dbaron: I think we shouldn't move to LC, but someone or I needs time to figure this out
  373. # [03:20] <dael> dbaron: I don't think it's that hard if I had a solid chunk of 3 days, but I'm not expect that sson
  374. # [03:20] <fantasai> s/sson/until mid-June/
  375. # [03:21] <dael> clilley: I have a question. You said model is wrong, but we've before gone forward with an imperfect model. How much are we paining into a corner?
  376. # [03:21] <dael> dbaron: Depends on if you care about impl not conforming to spec.
  377. # [03:21] <dael> clilley: Yeah, that is fairly bad
  378. # [03:21] <dael> dbaron: It doesn't start certain trans that need to start.
  379. # [03:22] <dael> dbaron: In particular when you have a transition that happens when you move the mouse over and when you move the mouse away, it lets the transition move out
  380. # [03:22] <dael> dbaron: I don't think there's much to discuss unless someone has thoughts
  381. # [03:22] <dael> shans_: I don't know the text spec.
  382. # [03:22] <astearns> s/the text/how to fix it in the/
  383. # [03:23] <dael> dbaron: I've be curious to know how you fixed it in impl. I wrote a series of patches, start the tests, and realized that transitions that inturrupt don't work
  384. # [03:23] <dael> dbaron: Now my patch series has the same bug as the spec
  385. # [03:23] <dael> clilley: That's fine. You've proved the spec is wrong, but if people have impl there must be something that's working
  386. # [03:23] <dael> dbaron: There's a pile of edge cases where impl do different things, expect a broke a case where they were interop.
  387. # [03:23] <fantasai> s/expect/except/
  388. # [03:24] <dael> fantasai: You said you'd have time in June?
  389. # [03:24] <dael> dbaron: I hope so.
  390. # [03:24] <dael> fantasai: So maybe we aim for LC at end of June?
  391. # [03:24] <dael> dbaron: That might be tight. shans_ and I can talk.
  392. # [03:24] <dael> dbaron: I think I should move on to aniimations.
  393. # [03:24] <dael> dbaron: That has a lack of editorial resournces. I've mostly kept up with trans edits, but not animations
  394. # [03:25] <dael> dbaron: I added a list of pending res that need edits so people know what's wrong.
  395. # [03:25] <dael> dbaron: I was hoping sylvaing could help with editing
  396. # [03:25] * Joins: dauwhe_ (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
  397. # [03:25] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  398. # [03:25] <dael> clilley: Brian Birtloes understands these issues. He's got a model in his head, can he be drug into editing
  399. # [03:26] <TabAtkins> `s/Birtloes/Birtles/
  400. # [03:26] <TabAtkins> s/Birtloes/Birtles/
  401. # [03:26] * krit dbaron I think he is looking into it already
  402. # [03:26] * fantasai notes that sylvaing also has all the time he's not spending on an airplane to Seoul this week to do edits :)
  403. # [03:26] <TabAtkins> s/Birtloes/Birtles/g
  404. # [03:26] <dael> shans_: I'm not sure if he has the integration part in his head. He's been deffering to myself and TabAtkins
  405. # [03:26] * krit he being sylvaing
  406. # [03:26] * TabAtkins Ugh, shipping regexes to formatters later down the line is confusing.
  407. # [03:26] <dael> shans_: We have a model of web integration almost ready to be looked at. Maybe I can get that would to the list
  408. # [03:26] <dael> shans_: There's a question about animations intergration. Maybe we can do that now?
  409. # [03:27] <dael> [brief pause as the white board arrives]
  410. # [03:29] <SteveZ> I will drop of listening for today. I will be back at 9AM Korean time on Tuesday. I will check the IRC for schedule for Tuesday (and Wednesday)
  411. # [03:29] * dauwhe_ we need a bart simpson at the chalkboard meme.
  412. # [03:30] * krit glazou Is it possible to call in? Conf code is not accepted
  413. # [03:30] * plh "I will not use the terms CSS3 or CSS4"
  414. # [03:30] * dauwhe_ SteveZ: so sorry you couldn't make it
  415. # [03:31] * liam hopes the air conditioning is not too strong, it's only 65F here as it is, and a frost possible tonight!
  416. # [03:31] * clilley krit are you using the webinar?
  417. # [03:31] * liam krit yes
  418. # [03:31] <glazou> krit: see webinar info in private list
  419. # [03:31] * krit oh, didn't thought about it as a conf system :P
  420. # [03:32] * plinss changes topic to 'http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/seoul-2014#agenda'
  421. # [03:32] * liam the webinar gives a telephone number (after checking you are not running Linux)
  422. # [03:32] <dael> dbaron: So the state of animations is stuck on editing resources.
  423. # [03:32] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak)
  424. # [03:32] <dael> dbaron: I don't know how much exposure he has to CSS concepts
  425. # [03:32] <dael> clilley: Given that he doens't understand the concepts and his spec is supposed to be wonderfully useful
  426. # [03:33] <dael> shans_: There's a lot of us working on that spec and between us we have a good grasp
  427. # [03:33] <dael> shans_: you don't have to model every CSS concept in web animations to make it work. There's a shadowy topic of what does CSS do to start/stop anmations
  428. # [03:34] <shans_> http://rawgit.com/shans/98cb810920ac43876020/raw/b77db7529411066c9f3cdd36a52d0b98553525f9/Overview.html
  429. # [03:34] <dael> shans_: At the moment we have transtioiins and animations, we have web animations and we've just started a 3rd piece
  430. # [03:34] <dael> shans_: That talks about how to take the concepts from CSS to web animations
  431. # [03:34] <dael> shans_: We were looking at this while discussing web animations and trying to decide if this 3rd peice makes sense or if it makes sense to re-write
  432. # [03:35] <dael> clilley: And to help use to discuss what were your findings?
  433. # [03:35] <dael> shans_: I think it's useful, but I don't know what level
  434. # [03:35] <dael> dbaron: I feel we should get current set out with the model they have because we have impl and interop
  435. # [03:35] <dael> clilley: Weren't you aruging the oposite about it not working?
  436. # [03:35] <dael> dbaron: that's a small set of issues
  437. # [03:35] <dael> clilley: That's nto what I heard
  438. # [03:36] <dael> hober: I think that's not what I said. We have a lot of edge cases, but I agree with dbaron that we should get out and think about the other issues in the future
  439. # [03:36] <dael> clilley: This goes back to my last comment, though.
  440. # [03:36] <dael> dbaron: I think there's a different time scale of work.
  441. # [03:37] <dael> dbaron: transitions issues can be solved in a week, but I don't think someone can re-write in a week to match web animations
  442. # [03:37] * birtles fwiw dbaron is right, I don't know all the CSS-specifics (and I agree we should get out the current level spec without confusing it with web animations)
  443. # [03:37] <dael> shans_: I agree with that. It would be a lot of work to do the reqrite and a lot more to get things correct
  444. # [03:37] <dael> clilley: I take the point about verifications, but it doesn't sound like theyre using any specific model
  445. # [03:38] <dael> dbaron: But we were talking about the model about starting transitions before, but now we're talking about the whole model, which is a lot bigger
  446. # [03:38] <dael> shans_: It's not as big as it sounds. Web animations model talks about how to do interpreted values and put them back into CSS. The statrt/stop remains unchanged.
  447. # [03:38] <dael> shans_: Unfortunatly, that's the stuff we have trouble with
  448. # [03:39] <dael> dbaron: I'm fine with someone doing the other in parrall, but I don't think we should block advancement
  449. # [03:39] <dael> clilley: You said a week, you mean one not doing anything else. Is that likely?
  450. # [03:39] <dael> dbaron: I'll see. I'm hoping 2nd half of June
  451. # [03:39] <dael> clilley: I'm trying to not have a thing where the skys have to open to make this work
  452. # [03:39] <dael> dbaron: I don't think it's that complecated. I also think it's really a day, which is why I'm saying a week
  453. # [03:40] <dael> clilley: So we're almost ready for LC?
  454. # [03:40] <dael> dbaron: For transitions, yes.
  455. # [03:40] <dael> dbaron: Was there stuff you wanted to discuss about this draft?
  456. # [03:40] <dael> shans_: Not spec. I think it's worth looking at some point, but not high priority.
  457. # [03:40] * astearns dbaron just violated the star fleet engineering code. never admit that your week is actually a day
  458. # [03:41] <dael> shans_: I have some changes to intergrate, but than I'll send an e-mail. I wanted to clarify what we should be doing and I think that's clear.
  459. # [03:41] <dael> shans_: This should be part of Animations 4. I think this draft will never be a spec. It'll be a reference until we're ready to merge.
  460. # [03:41] <dael> shans_: Than we'll pub transisions/animations 4.
  461. # [03:41] <dael> dbaron: Sounds fine to me.
  462. # [03:41] * krit glazou I am muted by the organizer. Not want to talk right now. But would like to know what to do when I want to.
  463. # [03:41] * clilley so the problem is that we are moving, but the engines canna tak it captain
  464. # [03:42] <dael> Rossen_: Is this something you're prop bringing into CSS?
  465. # [03:42] <dael> Rossen_: I see this is something you posted outside of w3c.
  466. # [03:42] <dael> Rossen_: I don't remember this...are you going to bring this offically?
  467. # [03:42] <dael> shans_: That's the question. It's not pub at all, it's just avail for sharing
  468. # [03:43] <dael> clilley: So web animations is going onward. I'd imagine this will be intergrated in
  469. # [03:43] <dael> shans_: My proposal is to keep this as unoffical reference until trans/animations 3 is ready.
  470. # [03:43] <dael> shans_: Thank roll this into trans/anim level 4
  471. # [03:43] <dael> shans_: So we won't have another spec lying around.
  472. # [03:44] <dael> glaz: Your doc is a W3c...maybe we should move this to the dev pages?
  473. # [03:44] <dael> shans_: Absolutely
  474. # [03:44] <dael> glaz: It's only an unoffical ED
  475. # [03:44] <dael> glaz: We decded a while ago to move stuff to dev only if the WG agrees
  476. # [03:44] <dael> clilley: We've lots of times had two levels going.
  477. # [03:44] <dael> glaz: This is up to the WG. Any obj?
  478. # [03:45] <dael> shans_: To be clear, take my doc and put it on the dev pages and than start to bring in animations 4 later?
  479. # [03:45] <dael> dbaron: If we want to start to edit now or later is open
  480. # [03:45] <dael> hober: The question is just to bring it across
  481. # [03:45] <dael> plh: Does this need to be charter?
  482. # [03:45] <dael> Rossen_: If it's title trans/anim 4 no.
  483. # [03:45] <dael> plh: I jsut want to make sure it's in the right place with the charter.
  484. # [03:46] <dael> clilley: Thanks, btw for the ac's that have commented on charter
  485. # [03:46] <dael> clilley: So is the trans/anim 4?
  486. # [03:46] <dael> shans_: Eventually
  487. # [03:46] <dael> clilley: So do we want to call it that now so we can put it in the charter?
  488. # [03:46] * dino suggests we go to 5 blades
  489. # [03:46] <dael> glaz: If we want to add to the charter, some ACs have already voted, so what would happen to the charter? revote?
  490. # [03:46] <dael> plh: We have to get the approval to do that
  491. # [03:47] <dael> clilley: WE have comments from an AC asking for edits, so I've got a copy already
  492. # [03:47] <dael> glaz: From an AC prospective, some people could be bothered about adding a new doc
  493. # [03:47] <dael> dbaron: If an AC suggests we add that doc
  494. # [03:47] <dael> glaz: Okay.
  495. # [03:47] * krit glazou ping? See question above.
  496. # [03:47] <dael> clilley: I'm not editing the AC copy.
  497. # [03:47] <dael> clilley: So do we haev a resolution on that?
  498. # [03:48] <dael> glaz: so move that document to dev pages?
  499. # [03:48] <dael> dbaron: I think in the min. that status should say that the intent is to merge.
  500. # [03:48] <dael> hober: I'm not confortable witht he title change.
  501. # [03:48] <dael> dbaron: I think this shouldn't get the name, yes
  502. # [03:48] <dael> clilley: It just means I need to put this title in the doc.
  503. # [03:48] <glazou> krit: now unmuted
  504. # [03:48] <dael> Rossen_: If we need it to be unofficial...
  505. # [03:49] * krit glazou thanks
  506. # [03:49] <dael> plh: So if it'll be integrated at the end, we don't need to change charter
  507. # [03:49] <dael> clilley: Okay.
  508. # [03:49] <dael> RESOLVED: Migrate shans_ document (link above) into the dev pages
  509. # [03:50] <dbaron> (and the SotD section should say that it's intended to be incorporated into Transitions and Animations 4)
  510. # [03:50] <dael> glaz: I suggest a break, 10 or 15 min
  511. # [03:50] <dael> shans_: Did dbaron have further?
  512. # [03:50] <dael> dbaron: [shake head]
  513. # [03:50] <dael> Break until 11am Seoul
  514. # [03:50] <dbaron> <br style="min-width: calc(60s * 10)" />
  515. # [03:50] * Quits: dino (~textual@public.cloak) ("Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com")
  516. # [03:52] * krit is someone still editing the schedule for the meeting?
  517. # [03:55] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak)
  518. # [03:57] * Quits: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  519. # [03:58] * Quits: koji (~koji@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  520. # [03:59] * Quits: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  521. # [04:03] * Quits: arronei (~arronei@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  522. # [04:03] * Joins: arronei (~arronei@public.cloak)
  523. # [04:06] * liam wonders what Korean coffee is like
  524. # [04:08] * Joins: Kyounga (~Kyounga@public.cloak)
  525. # [04:08] * Quits: Kyounga (~Kyounga@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  526. # [04:09] * Joins: jh_hong (~jh_hong@public.cloak)
  527. # [04:10] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  528. # [04:10] * Parts: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak) (Zakim)
  529. # [04:10] * dauwhe_ liam: lots of US-style coffee shops in the area. I believe there's a Starbucks in this building.
  530. # [04:11] * dauwhe_ finding tea is more difficult.
  531. # [04:11] * liam bewails the ubiquity of universality
  532. # [04:11] * Joins: kyounga (~kyounga@public.cloak)
  533. # [04:12] * dauwhe_ I'm told the "americano" is the drink of choice. Sigh.
  534. # [04:13] * dauwhe_ liam: yet you work for a global standards organization :)
  535. # [04:14] * liam :)
  536. # [04:16] * hober the espresso at angel-in-us coffee is pretty good; even glazou approves of it
  537. # [04:17] * liam hopes dbaron is not trying to pout coffee into the electrical outlets
  538. # [04:17] * liam s/pout/pour/
  539. # [04:17] * Joins: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak)
  540. # [04:17] * astearns hober: directions to the closest one of those?
  541. # [04:18] * astearns there's lots of good espresso in Seoul proper
  542. # [04:18] * astearns www.coffeelec.com is the best I've found so far
  543. # [04:18] * hober astearns it's <1 block from here
  544. # [04:19] <dael> glaz: Let's start.
  545. # [04:19] <dael> glaz: con't animations?
  546. # [04:19] <dael> dbaron: Did we have other things?
  547. # [04:19] <dael> glaz: One about animations OM issues?
  548. # [04:19] <dael> plinss: Also, cascading behaviour?
  549. # [04:19] <dael> TabAtkins: That'st he how do things start we were discussing.
  550. # [04:19] <dael> dbaron: I don't know how added those items?
  551. # [04:19] <dael> plinss: What are the OM issues?
  552. # [04:19] * krit TabAtkins are you editing the agenda page?
  553. # [04:20] <TabAtkins> I was, but I committed it.
  554. # [04:20] <TabAtkins> Like, 20 minutes ago at least.
  555. # [04:20] <dael> [silence]
  556. # [04:20] * krit TabAtkins tuesday is nearly empty, wednesday literally is
  557. # [04:20] <dael> TabAtkins: Zakim excused himself...is he needed?
  558. # [04:20] <dael> glaz: No
  559. # [04:20] * krit TabAtkins many items are missing
  560. # [04:21] <dael> glaz: Let's move on to calc
  561. # [04:21] * Joins: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak)
  562. # [04:21] * dbaron Zakim, remind us in 7 hours to go home
  563. # [04:21] * Zakim ok, dbaron
  564. # [04:21] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
  565. # [04:21] <dael> TabAtkins: [heads to the white board]
  566. # [04:21] <glazou> astearns: good espresso 25 meters from this building
  567. # [04:21] <dael> TabAtkins: It's the plus/minus thing
  568. # [04:21] * dbaron The ± thing :-)
  569. # [04:21] <glazou> eheh
  570. # [04:21] <dael> TabAtkins: Right now, calc requires spaces around + and - to avoid ambiguities
  571. # [04:22] * Joins: Jet (~Jet@public.cloak)
  572. # [04:22] * Quits: jh_hong (~jh_hong@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  573. # [04:22] <dael> TabAtkins: There's a proposal to allow us to omit these.
  574. # [04:22] * Joins: jh_hong (~jh_hong@public.cloak)
  575. # [04:22] <dael> TabAtkins: Does anyone need a review, or are we just doing whatever TabAtkins wants.
  576. # [04:22] <dael> dbaron: I'd like to hear it
  577. # [04:22] <dael> hober: With examples
  578. # [04:22] <dael> TabAtkins: For example, right now I need to write 1 + 2 it tolkinies as a number.
  579. # [04:23] * Joins: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak)
  580. # [04:23] <dael> TabAtkins: One change is that if you get the right combination of tolkins, If you run into a + or - it assumes that it's negative/positive
  581. # [04:23] <dael> clilley: Can I do 1 + -2?
  582. # [04:23] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
  583. # [04:23] <dael> TabAtkins: This is the less complex.
  584. # [04:23] <Jet> s/tolkins/tokens
  585. # [04:24] <dael> fantasai: Does that first one mean if I write [whiteboard] it would work?
  586. # [04:24] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes. In this new approach it remmebers if numbers are positive or negative.
  587. # [04:24] <fantasai> [whiteboard] = 1/**/2
  588. # [04:25] <fantasai> s/Yes/No/
  589. # [04:25] <dael> plinss: To clarify. In the case with a negative, you're converiting to 1 - 2 to 1 + -2?
  590. # [04:25] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
  591. # [04:25] <fantasai> TabAtkins^: It looks at the represntation to see if there was a plus sign
  592. # [04:25] <dael> plinss: The thing is you can always call it addition if it's number number, but at some point we need to know if we're adding a positive or a negative
  593. # [04:25] <dael> TabAtkins: This is us fighting the process to get it to do what we want.
  594. # [04:26] <dbaron> s/1 + -2/1 - +2/
  595. # [04:26] <dael> TabAtkins: The complex part is about units
  596. # [04:26] <dael> TabAtkins: + isn't relevent because as soon as there's a unit it's easy.
  597. # [04:27] <dael> TabAtkins: The hard part is negatives.
  598. # [04:27] <dael> TabAtkins: 1px-2em looks like one big unit.
  599. # [04:27] <dael> TabAtkins: The current proposal that I'm okay with is we change the syntaz parsing of dementions.
  600. # [04:27] <dael> TabAtkins: The unit is slightly more restrive so you can't have dash after the unit
  601. # [04:28] <dael> TabAtkins: so that would became 1px and -2em
  602. # [04:28] <dael> TabAtkins: Whenever we...It's only one...no, it is two characters
  603. # [04:28] <dael> plinss: So you can have dashes in units as long as it isn't followed by units
  604. # [04:28] <fantasai> dbaron^: So you're adding a 3-character lookahead to the scanner?
  605. # [04:28] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes. prefixes are still valid in demensions.
  606. # [04:28] <fantasai> s/3/2/
  607. # [04:29] <fantasai> TabAtkins^: It's already got a 3-char lookahead
  608. # [04:29] <dael> clilley: Do we have syntax for prefixes and does it allow digits?
  609. # [04:29] <dael> TabAtkins: Right now it's an ident
  610. # [04:29] <dael> clilley: For a vendor prefix?
  611. # [04:29] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
  612. # [04:29] <dael> dbaron: If a vendor prefix starts with a number yyou're in trouble
  613. # [04:29] <plinss> s/followed by units/followed by digits/
  614. # [04:29] <dael> clilley: So to use this as units, you hve to put a restriction on vendor prefix
  615. # [04:30] <liam> [ calc(3px - border-width) ]
  616. # [04:30] <dael> TabAtkins: It would never work
  617. # [04:30] <dael> dbaron: You want your vendor prefix as 2px, it would be a demesion anywhere
  618. # [04:30] <dael> clilley: I'm looking for consistant
  619. # [04:30] <dael> TabAtkins: It is. Vendor prefixes are in ascii vendor range
  620. # [04:30] <dael> hober: Are there any cases left that req. whitespace?
  621. # [04:31] <dael> glaz: Do we need a digit after a dash in idents?
  622. # [04:31] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
  623. # [04:31] <dael> TabAtkins: Translate -3d i think
  624. # [04:31] <dael> zcorpan: There's one place with whitespace
  625. # [04:31] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes. If you're trying to subtract a function.
  626. # [04:31] <dbaron> transform-style: preserve-3d means we need to keep allowing it in idents
  627. # [04:31] <dael> TabAtkins: If I say 2px - attr(foo). Without white space it would be a dimension with stuff.
  628. # [04:32] <dael> TabAtkins: The thought it this is okay b/c people are familiat with white space and dashes in ident names.
  629. # [04:32] * sgalineau css-animations OM issues were those raised by Daniel. Happy to join in on Tue or Wed AM if there is time. Or later.
  630. # [04:32] <dael> hober: I don't think so
  631. # [04:32] <dael> fantasai: Especially in area where people re using spaces because there are words. I don't think that works
  632. # [04:32] <dael> hober: model in CSS is that I can use this thing to produce values and I can use it anywhere.
  633. # [04:33] <dael> glaz: If preserve 3d is the only case, why don't we change that.
  634. # [04:33] <dael> fantasai: We'll have same problem with min-content. We can't change all keywords
  635. # [04:33] <dael> glaz: I'm saying forbid digit after dash.
  636. # [04:33] <dael> TabAtkins: If we only did numbers, it would only help us with number and number.
  637. # [04:33] <dael> plinss: You only need the space after the dash?
  638. # [04:34] <dael> TabAtkins: There are no trailing dashes.
  639. # [04:34] <dael> plinss: In idents
  640. # [04:34] <dael> TabAtkins: We can make that a no...
  641. # [04:34] <dael> TabAtkins: Calc can examine and say it's a negative. This is less awful.
  642. # [04:34] <dael> TabAtkins: Opinions.
  643. # [04:34] <hober> s/use this thing/use calc()/
  644. # [04:34] <dael> fantasai: I'm against this because I think it'll make functions and keywords confusing since they won't realize when you swap you need spaces
  645. # [04:35] <dael> TabAtkins: I agree, but I see why we'd want to optimize for the common case
  646. # [04:35] <dael> dbaron: There's the common case and than there's editing and modifying
  647. # [04:35] <dael> hober: If I do a search and replace, it's going to break half the places
  648. # [04:35] <dael> plinss: Only if you're replacing inside a calc.
  649. # [04:35] * Joins: koji (~koji@public.cloak)
  650. # [04:35] <dael> clilley: So it's either you have to use spaces all the time or you can get rid of them sometimes, but you have to remember when.
  651. # [04:36] <dael> clilley: That's what you're against?
  652. # [04:36] <dael> fantasai: Yes. I'm all for optimizing, but I don't want people tripping over themselves
  653. # [04:36] <dael> dbaron: Or you get rid of dashes in units and removing poss of vendor prefixed units.
  654. # [04:36] <fantasai> fantasai: I'm all for optimizing the common cases, but as you transition to more complicated cases, don't want to trip people up.
  655. # [04:36] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
  656. # [04:36] <dael> hober: The only unit I know is __qem
  657. # [04:37] <dael> hober: It's not used, but it doesn't trip over this case.
  658. # [04:37] <dael> TabAtkins: Doing so would mean we can't later allow user spec demensions b/c they start is --
  659. # [04:37] <hober> s/It's not used/It's only used in the WebKit UA stylesheet/
  660. # [04:37] <dael> TabAtkins: Or they can start with a dash, but not contain inside
  661. # [04:37] <dael> zcorpan: If we change as dimensions, it wouldn't solve the keyword
  662. # [04:37] <dael> TabAtkins: It wouldn't solve several cases
  663. # [04:38] <dael> dbaron: But you can do it the way you desc where the -adder function is calc is a - only
  664. # [04:38] <dael> TabAtkins: It would be problematic, still, with vendor prefix.
  665. # [04:38] <plinss> s/-adder/-attr/
  666. # [04:38] <dael> tabatkins: like we couldn't do -webkit addr unless we add special cases.
  667. # [04:38] <dael> TabAtkins: And keyword-keyword
  668. # [04:39] <hober> s/ addr/-attr()/
  669. # [04:39] <dael> zcorpan: On the flip side if we want to req spaces, the current spec doesn't do that
  670. # [04:39] <dael> dbaron: Current req spaces around + and -, but not the others because we didn't need to
  671. # [04:39] <dael> dbaron: So there's a grouping that makes sense with mult and division
  672. # [04:40] <dael> fantasai: You can certainly put spaces everywhere.
  673. # [04:40] <fantasai> dbaron^: Mult/div bind tighter than add/subtrack
  674. # [04:40] <dael> zcorpan: So the search and replace arguement, does that apply?
  675. # [04:40] <dael> TabAtkins: Well, if you're doing * to / you'll break way more
  676. # [04:41] <dbaron> calc(auto−min-content)
  677. # [04:41] <dael> zcorpan: I can see that. On the other hand if you're first used to multi and than you move to plus and you need to add spaces
  678. # [04:41] <dael> TabAtkins: I agree it's confusing.
  679. # [04:41] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
  680. # [04:41] <dael> TabAtkins: There's author feedback saying the spaces are confusing
  681. # [04:41] <dael> hober: So we have a compat constraint and there's existing content. To address author confusion we can't add spaces everywhere b/c compat
  682. # [04:41] <dael> hober: The other way is to make the white space always optional
  683. # [04:42] <dael> TabAtkins: That's literally impossible, though.
  684. # [04:42] <dael> hober: So if neither extreme is possible, which do we move toward? It seems optional as much as possible is better.
  685. # [04:42] <dael> fantasai: Since we have to pick the middle, we can decide our goal is get as close as possible to one, or to pick a logical line that makes it easy to understand.
  686. # [04:43] <dael> fantasai: I think that we're at a logical place.
  687. # [04:43] <dael> glaz: I think the discussion is to make authors can use it.
  688. # [04:43] <dael> hober: I agree, but I think you're point is different
  689. # [04:43] <fantasai> fantasai: It's not as close to our ideal as possible, but we can't get all the way there, and what we have is easier to understand and remember
  690. # [04:43] * Quits: dauwhe_ (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  691. # [04:43] <fantasai> s/there/there anyway/
  692. # [04:43] <dael> TabAtkins: fantasai is saying that current spec is clear and easy to understand but the proposal requires knowing and remembering a lot more which is worse.
  693. # [04:43] <dael> TabAtkins: You have to understand why something does/doesn't make sense
  694. # [04:44] <dael> fantasai: If we keep it where it is, you don't need to understand parsing, you just have to remember + and - need space
  695. # [04:44] <dael> TabAtkins: The rule becomes you need space around keywords which I think is reasonable
  696. # [04:44] <dael> fantasai: That is, but it's a more complex thing to understand and a more complex line.
  697. # [04:44] <dael> fantasai: If we try and get closer to where authors want, we can't get there and the solution would be worse
  698. # [04:45] * sgalineau ...maybe we could use tabs?
  699. # [04:45] <dael> TabAtkins: I can agree with both.
  700. # [04:45] <dael> zcorpan: I don't understand why we can't always need space
  701. # [04:45] <dael> TabAtkins: Too many things already don't require the spaces.
  702. # [04:45] * astearns no need to use spaces, just use zero-width nonbreaking spaces
  703. # [04:45] <fantasai> s/many things/much existing content/
  704. # [04:45] <dael> TabAtkins: There are things out there in the world that we can't get rid of.
  705. # [04:45] <fantasai> s/require/use/
  706. # [04:46] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't know how to resolve this because I can't decide. Someone else needs to decide this.
  707. # [04:46] <dael> glaz: I'm ready for straw poll
  708. # [04:46] <dael> TabAtkins: Options are no change or this
  709. # [04:46] <dael> hober: So going back to authors needs, I'd like the poll to be what authors need to remember
  710. # [04:46] <dael> TabAtkins: option 1) Space around - and + all the time
  711. # [04:46] * Quits: kyounga (~kyounga@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  712. # [04:47] <dbaron> today's new smiley face: -−-
  713. # [04:47] <dael> TabAtkins: options 2) Space around - when using functions and keywords
  714. # [04:48] <dael> glaz: so before the poll, what is current?
  715. # [04:48] * astearns tab fills the whiteboard with the explanation of option 2
  716. # [04:48] <dael> TabAtkins: Option 1
  717. # [04:48] <dael> glaz: So is there a third option before we do the poll?
  718. # [04:48] <dael> dbaron: In 2 you're saying that when you're using functions in keywords, there has to be a space around just the - sign and are you saying the space hast o be on the side of the minus sign?
  719. # [04:48] <dael> TabAtkins: yes
  720. # [04:49] <dael> glaz: let's do the poll
  721. # [04:49] <dael> clilley: 1
  722. # [04:49] <dael> Rossen_: i
  723. # [04:49] <dael> dbaron: 1
  724. # [04:49] <dbaron> glaz: 1
  725. # [04:49] <dael> glenn abs
  726. # [04:49] <dael> jet: abs
  727. # [04:49] <dael> koji: 1
  728. # [04:49] <krit> abstain
  729. # [04:49] <dael> koji : abs
  730. # [04:49] <dael> fantasai: 1
  731. # [04:50] <dael> zcorpan: 2
  732. # [04:50] <dael> arronei: 1
  733. # [04:50] * plh Space: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the CSS WG. Its two-year charter: to explore strange new syntaxes, to seek out new properties and new syntaxes, to boldly go where no web engine has gone before.
  734. # [04:50] <astearns> s/arronei/astearns/
  735. # [04:50] <dael> andre: abs
  736. # [04:50] <liam> 1 because any option that needs a full whiteboard to explain it must be bad :-)
  737. # [04:50] <dael> addneilson: 1
  738. # [04:50] <dael> bruno: 1
  739. # [04:50] <dael> dongwoo: 1
  740. # [04:50] <dael> TabAtkins: abs
  741. # [04:50] <dael> hober: 2
  742. # [04:50] <dael> plh: abs
  743. # [04:50] <dael> shans_: abs
  744. # [04:51] <dael> shinuyu: abs
  745. # [04:51] <dael> dauwhe: abs
  746. # [04:51] <dael> plinss: abs
  747. # [04:51] <dael> TabAtkins: So it seems clear for 1
  748. # [04:51] <dael> hober: I can live
  749. # [04:51] <dael> glaz: zcorpan can you live with 1?
  750. # [04:51] <dael> zcorpan: I can live with 1. I think SimonSapin said 2 on the ML
  751. # [04:51] <myakura> s/shinuyu/shinyu/
  752. # [04:52] <dael> hober: The quick case for 2 is that it would be easy for the web inspector to highlight the odd cases with this problem.
  753. # [04:52] <dael> hober: It's unusual to encounter this
  754. # [04:52] <dbaron> I don't feel that strongly either; I'd be ok with 2.
  755. # [04:52] <dael> TabAtkins: For now. When we allow keywords it'll be more
  756. # [04:52] <dael> hober: You add more than you run into this problem.
  757. # [04:52] <dael> glaz: I was looking for something more usable and be able to do things as we say it.
  758. # [04:53] <dael> hober: 2 is as close
  759. # [04:53] <dael> glaz: But 2 makes it wierd
  760. # [04:53] <dael> RESOLVED: No change
  761. # [04:53] <dael> TabAtkins: There's more issues in values and units
  762. # [04:53] <dael> glaz: That's this afternoon
  763. # [04:53] <dael> glaz: Image values now
  764. # [04:53] <dael> plinss: It's cropping features from image
  765. # [04:53] <fantasai> Topic: Image Values
  766. # [04:54] <astearns> s/cropping/dropping/
  767. # [04:54] <dael> TabAtkins: Currenly image function is image(features, image*, color) this is roughly the grammar
  768. # [04:54] <dael> fantasai: I don't think we have features
  769. # [04:54] <dael> dbaron: ltr?
  770. # [04:54] <dael> TabAtkins: That's next level.
  771. # [04:55] <dael> TabAtkins: It does image fallback and does each one in turn. If it can't do an image it goes to the next one. If it can't it does a solid fallback image
  772. # [04:55] <dael> TabAtkins: This function will also be how we provide additional feaures later.
  773. # [04:55] <dael> hober: What is the interinic size of image when you do fallback?
  774. # [04:55] <dael> fantasai: It doesn't have one
  775. # [04:56] <dael> TabAtkins: problem now is we also have image-set in level 4 which is image-set([image resolution]#)
  776. # [04:56] <dael> TabAtkins: this doens't fallback, it jsut sleectes based on resolution
  777. # [04:56] <dael> TabAtkins: So now we have two types of fallback in ways that don't work well together.
  778. # [04:56] <dael> TabAtkins: You can't do what you want even if you combine these together.
  779. # [04:56] <dael> krit: image-set takes a function or type, right?
  780. # [04:57] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes, but it doesn't work the way you want
  781. # [04:57] <dael> krit: You can't have for each resolution?
  782. # [04:57] <dael> TabAtkins: You can't in image size five both
  783. # [04:57] <dael> hober: Because you can't make the 1px work with a 2px
  784. # [04:57] <dael> dbaron: Is there a usecase for people having 1x and 2x
  785. # [04:57] <dael> TabAtkins: 404ing might be the case.
  786. # [04:58] <dael> TabAtkins: Image's currently is half format, half network error protection
  787. # [04:58] <dael> TabAtkins: Since this was solving in two ways
  788. # [04:58] <clilley> s/2x/2x with different aspect ratios/
  789. # [04:58] <dael> hober: These functions have differen purposes. image-set doesn't have a fallback
  790. # [04:58] <dbaron> s/1x and 2x in different formats/
  791. # [04:58] <dael> hober: It isn't trying to solve fallback at all
  792. # [04:58] <dbaron> s/1x and 2x/1x and 2x in different formats/
  793. # [04:58] <dael> TabAtkins: You're saying pick a version based on this url, but they decide how to choose differently
  794. # [04:59] <dael> hober: If it was called fallback it would be clearer
  795. # [04:59] <dael> TabAtkins: We have two pick an image from this set, but they don't work the same
  796. # [04:59] <dael> krit: They have two purposes
  797. # [04:59] <dael> TabAtkins: They don't that's what I said
  798. # [04:59] <dael> hober: Youc an use image-set for an image function
  799. # [04:59] <dael> TabAtkins: You can't do that at all
  800. # [04:59] <hober> image(image-set(a 2x, b 1x), b, black)
  801. # [05:00] <dael> TabAtkins: Any way you can write it only works in one direction.
  802. # [05:00] <krit> image-set(image(list) 2x, image(list) 1x)
  803. # [05:00] <dael> TabAtkins: That only works if you're falling back in that way.
  804. # [05:00] <SteveZ> Please do not do CSS Text this afternoon late. That does not work for Californians
  805. # [05:00] <dael> TabAtkins: What if the browser chooses b and it's 404ing so let's load a, you can't
  806. # [05:00] <dael> TabAtkins: You can only pick an exact path. You can't say pick the best of these.
  807. # [05:01] <dael> krit: For each image set condition you have one list of images that apply to this condition. Why wouldn't that work
  808. # [05:01] <dael> TabAtkins: That's different fallback.
  809. # [05:01] <dael> TabAtkins: So what he put is valid, but it doesn't let you provide a set of images and provide a res. that works
  810. # [05:01] <dael> hober: It would be great if we had a image function that took a bunch of information and always magically did the right thing
  811. # [05:01] <dael> TabAtkins: I think we can, but a combination of image and image-set isn't right
  812. # [05:02] <dael> TabAtkins: So I say we make some of image option and than later creat e a propety that allows for a do what I mean approach
  813. # [05:02] <dael> krit: That works in the begining, but what about the future
  814. # [05:02] * Quits: koji (~koji@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  815. # [05:02] <dael> TabAtkins: We don't want one thing doing everything. This already does fallback color and adding full fallback makes things too complex
  816. # [05:03] <dael> hober: What's the compat risk of not allowing 0 fallback
  817. # [05:03] <dael> TabAtkins: non. no one uses it
  818. # [05:03] <astearns> s/uses/implements/
  819. # [05:03] <dael> hober: 2nd I like seperating fallback from other features, but I'm not crazy about squeezing into image-set
  820. # [05:04] <dael> hober: Suppose we had a fallback that takes a seq of arguements and either shared micro-syntax or use image-set and when you do so it imposes an order
  821. # [05:04] <dael> TabAtkins: That's how I want to handle this
  822. # [05:04] <dael> hober: What I like is it doesn't make micro syntax complex.
  823. # [05:04] <myakura> s/jsut sleectes/just/selects/
  824. # [05:04] <dael> hober: It's a bit magical because it imposes and order that wasn't there. That's wierd, but not that weird.
  825. # [05:04] <dael> hober: If you're using fallback, you want it
  826. # [05:05] <dael> TabAtkins: To check, you have a fallback and you load an image set and it still tries to load the best, but if it fails it falls back
  827. # [05:05] <dael> hober: Yes, I image the check would be the same, but the second ordering is used if there's a failure
  828. # [05:05] <dbaron> Tab writes "fallback(imageset(a 1x, b 2x))"
  829. # [05:05] <dael> krit: With image function, what do you suggest now?
  830. # [05:05] <dael> TabAtkins: Drop the fallback. In level 3 it would be an image and color
  831. # [05:06] <dael> dbaron: You're preserving fallback from imge to color
  832. # [05:06] <dael> TabAtkins: yes.
  833. # [05:06] <dael> dbaron: It's a feature we had previously defered and brought back
  834. # [05:06] <dbaron> (from background-color taking 2 values)
  835. # [05:06] <dael> hober: If we don't have impl so no compat risk, there's also no risk in changing the name of image. It seems very generic.
  836. # [05:06] <dael> hober: It's also providing additional information and a color. It's the odd man out.
  837. # [05:07] <dael> hober: I can't tell from function name what it does
  838. # [05:07] <dael> dbaron: There's other things we wanted to tie like media fragments. We also have a proposal to tie it to handling x-if
  839. # [05:07] <dael> dbaron: Basically, saying that something should have its x-if interpreted.
  840. # [05:08] <dael> dbaron: So we're designing the moden way to handle an image, but we've tied it to optins
  841. # [05:08] <dael> TabAtkins: That's why we have a generic name
  842. # [05:08] <clilley> s/x-if/EXIF/g
  843. # [05:08] <dael> hober: And that's why there's no impl. You need to have the add ins
  844. # [05:08] <dael> TabAtkins: You don't. You have to either understand media fragments or treat as broken.
  845. # [05:08] <clilley> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exchangeable_image_file_format
  846. # [05:08] <dael> TabAtkins: Minimun is url and fallback color
  847. # [05:08] <dael> krit: People often want image not because fallback, but because you can say a color.
  848. # [05:09] <dael> TabAtkins: We're keeping that.
  849. # [05:09] <dael> krit: That's why I was concerned. I'm supportive of limiting image functions
  850. # [05:09] * glazou lunch is ready
  851. # [05:09] <dael> TabAtkins: That's good since you were opposing earlier
  852. # [05:09] <dael> zcorpan: So do we need the fallback function? Do we need to fallback?
  853. # [05:09] <dael> hober: I think it's useful and I like that it's generic and sep. You can use it for something liek a font case
  854. # [05:10] <dael> TabAtkins: There's the transient image issues, but there's also for unsupported types
  855. # [05:10] <dael> zcorpan: Then you'd want to add the type up front
  856. # [05:10] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes. I was waiting on a decision
  857. # [05:10] <dael> zcorpan: But for type fallback we don't need netowkr fallback
  858. # [05:10] <dael> hober: It's true they're different
  859. # [05:11] <dael> TabAtkins: Technically, but to authors they're the same. You can omit type and network would still work.
  860. # [05:11] <dael> TabAtkins: That's why they should be together. In terms of things authors would use, they're the same.
  861. # [05:11] <dael> TabAtkins: Were you suggesting we only keep type fallback?
  862. # [05:11] <dael> zcorpan: Yes, I think network has complexity and authors need it
  863. # [05:11] <dael> hober: We don't have that elsewhere.
  864. # [05:11] <dael> TabAtkins: The image function does do network fallback. If something happens you get a solid color
  865. # [05:12] <dael> zcorpan: Yes, but solid color doesn't get you another network item
  866. # [05:12] <dael> TabAtkins: I've kinda added type fallback to image-set. I want to make it similar to picture.
  867. # [05:12] <dael> TabAtkins: We can always jsut have image-set feature equvellent to picture and we can decide on full network fallback later.
  868. # [05:12] <dael> TabAtkins: So are theyre obj to this proposal?
  869. # [05:13] <dael> TabAtkins: The proposal is we drop fallback from image except fallback to color. Later we introduce that fallback as an explicit function.
  870. # [05:13] <dael> clilley: Is that better seperate?
  871. # [05:13] * krit picture(<source src="image1.png"><source src="image1.jpg>)
  872. # [05:13] <dael> hober: Suppose in the future you define it...
  873. # [05:14] <dael> TabAtkins: You still want to just say load the image you want in image-set without extra requests, but with the option to say I do waht to budon the network
  874. # [05:14] <dael> hober: Sounded sep. First was to drop.
  875. # [05:14] <dael> TabAtkins: Well, it's to drop and add later
  876. # [05:14] <dael> RESOLVED: we drop fallback from image except fallback to color. Later we introduce that fallback as an explicit function.
  877. # [05:14] <dael> glaz: We have 2 thins on image values. dropping image resolution and orientation.
  878. # [05:15] <dael> TabAtkins: We can do taht after lunch
  879. # [05:15] <dael> krit: Can someone update the agenda?
  880. # [05:15] <dael> TabAtkins: What's on there is what we have.
  881. # [05:15] <dael> dbaron: And there's a large number of time constrants for people calling in.
  882. # [05:15] * liam suggests multiple lunch breaks :-)
  883. # [05:15] <zcorpan> s/authors need it/authors don't need it/
  884. # [05:15] <dael> glaz: So I suggest lunch break.
  885. # [05:15] <dael> [ break = lunch]
  886. # [05:16] <SteveZ> I repeat: please do not do CSS Text 3 late this afternoon; that is in hospitiable to Californians and Quebecious [Spelling?]
  887. # [05:20] * Quits: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  888. # [05:20] <fantasai> SteveZ: I got the message, will pass that on
  889. # [05:20] <fantasai> SteveZ: What time would you suggest?
  890. # [05:20] * Quits: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  891. # [05:21] * Quits: jh_hong (~jh_hong@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
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  894. # [05:27] * Quits: Jet (~Jet@public.cloak) ("http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client")
  895. # [05:28] * Quits: kyungtae (~kyungtae@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  896. # [05:33] * Quits: murakami (~murakami@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
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  899. # [05:47] * jdaggett wonders who will be the first to cut off tab's tie...
  900. # [05:48] * Joins: dauwhe_ (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
  901. # [05:49] * dauwhe_ rough draft of new initial caps section of css inline at http://dauwhe.github.io/dropcaps/Overview.html
  902. # [05:54] <myakura> tabatkins, you might've missed the closing </pre> in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-values/#component-combinators
  903. # [05:54] <TabAtkins> Nah, I like it that way.
  904. # [05:55] <liam> :)
  905. # [05:56] <TabAtkins> Fixed now.
  906. # [05:56] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak) ("")
  907. # [05:56] <myakura> :)
  908. # [06:02] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak)
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  910. # [06:08] * Quits: kangil (~d25fff94@public.cloak) ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")
  911. # [06:08] <clilley> @ dauwhe_ can we call then drop initials instead? Not necessarily capitals, even in bicameral scripts
  912. # [06:09] <liam> [yes, drop initials is OK, although there are also raised initials]
  913. # [06:09] * Joins: kangil (~d25fff94@public.cloak)
  914. # [06:10] * Joins: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak)
  915. # [06:12] * liam tries google translate and gets vélo excrétion
  916. # [06:18] * Joins: dael (~dael@public.cloak)
  917. # [06:19] <dael> TabAtkins: There's a proposal for auto-applied and to let it just be an HTML thing
  918. # [06:19] <dael> TabAtkins: If we can't, drop everything except what's supported by printers
  919. # [06:19] * dauwhe_ clilley: I believe my pre-ED uses the term "drop initials" throughout, although I like "versals" :)
  920. # [06:19] <dael> clilley: That's odd since HTML isn't the only place that brings up images
  921. # [06:19] <dael> dbaron: You do it in a different way for CSS.
  922. # [06:19] <dael> TabAtkins: In the image function
  923. # [06:19] <dael> clilley: I don't like building a gap
  924. # [06:20] <dael> TabAtkins: The reason it was thought weird is the only thing that should be applied is use the native oreientation.
  925. # [06:20] <dael> TabAtkins: The only thing we have in this level is just to use the one oreintation
  926. # [06:20] <dael> TabAtkins: The question is do we drop this or just keep what's needed for printers.
  927. # [06:20] <dael> hober: Do you mean in the print screen
  928. # [06:20] <dael> TabAtkins: no
  929. # [06:20] <dael> clilley: Is this XHTML print?
  930. # [06:21] <dael> fantasai: We have a CSS profile that's referenced by printers/scanners that we can't remove, but we can obsolute it in the performance notes saying that it's not required
  931. # [06:21] <zcorpan> s/CSS profile/CSS print profile/
  932. # [06:21] <fantasai> s/obsolute/obsolete/
  933. # [06:21] <dael> clilley: That CSS thing the XHTML print were coupled. Can't we get XHTML print to have this attr?
  934. # [06:21] <dael> fantasai: I don't think that's good
  935. # [06:22] <dael> fantasai: The XHTML print stuff is to allow printers to create templates from themselves. This is old.
  936. # [06:22] * Joins: murakami (~murakami@public.cloak)
  937. # [06:22] <dael> fantasai: I don't think anyone wants to work on that. We'll do the minimum to not break anything and that's to say here's the spec, it's obsolete. Don't implement it
  938. # [06:22] * Joins: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak)
  939. # [06:22] <dael> clilley: So the spec that referenced it, what stage?
  940. # [06:22] <dael> fantasai: I don't know
  941. # [06:23] <dael> clilley: It has a forward reference to something we haven't spec'ed
  942. # [06:23] <dael> fantasai: It was, but it was in paged media and we pulled it out.
  943. # [06:23] <dael> fantasai: paged media hit CR but we pulled it back
  944. # [06:23] <dael> clilley: Well that's the weasel out is we're saying people aren't depending on it.
  945. # [06:23] <dael> fantasai: There are, but they're not on the web. We say if you're on the web, this isn't useful for you
  946. # [06:24] <dael> zcorpan: Do we need to have it at all?
  947. # [06:24] <dael> fantasai: They are impl it, they're fine with what's there now. They're satisfied
  948. # [06:24] <dael> clilley: They were fine with a non-standard thing. What'st he benefit of putting in our own spec
  949. # [06:24] <dael> fantasai: Well we pulled it out and put it here so it hast o be somewhere.
  950. # [06:24] <SimonSapin> (what’s the topic?)
  951. # [06:24] <dael> clilley: Right, I'm saying they were using something old
  952. # [06:25] <dael> fantasai: Well, we moved it and didn't want to break the links.
  953. # [06:25] <dael> clilley: We moved it because we thought we wanted it and don't now
  954. # [06:25] <dael> hober: If we don't want it and they do, why don't they define it.
  955. # [06:25] <dael> fantasai: All we need to do is put an obsolete notice
  956. # [06:25] <dael> hober: But we don't need it at all because they're using it and don't need us to have it
  957. # [06:26] <dael> fantasai: I don't want to break people. Leave it with a note in 3 and remove it from 4.
  958. # [06:26] <dael> TabAtkins: Who is broke?
  959. # [06:26] <dael> fantasai: This is referenced.
  960. # [06:26] <dael> fantasai: I don't see the problem with leaving and marking
  961. # [06:26] <dael> clilley: Marking or depricating?
  962. # [06:26] <dael> fantasai: Either.
  963. # [06:26] <astearns> s/Marking/Marking obsolete/
  964. # [06:26] <dael> clilley: one says don't do it, the other says everyone should implement it, but we're not using it anymore.
  965. # [06:27] <dael> clilley: I don't want effort into something we don't want.
  966. # [06:27] * dauwhe_ sounds like we need RFC 6919
  967. # [06:27] <dael> hober: I'm perfectly happy with fantasai adding a note in the document or whatever
  968. # [06:27] <dael> fantasai: I don't want to break references.
  969. # [06:27] <dael> clilley: Skipping is fine until we're at CR
  970. # [06:27] <dael> hober: But we can define our own criteria saying that obsolete features don't need to be impl
  971. # [06:28] <fantasai> to exit CR
  972. # [06:28] <dael> TabAtkins: That means I have to add things to bikeshead.
  973. # [06:28] <dael> hober: Other groups have custom criterea already.
  974. # [06:28] * Joins: koji (~koji@public.cloak)
  975. # [06:29] <dael> TabAtkins: Okay. Sounds good. I will cut out everything not defined, remove my additions, move to an appendix, call it obsolte and make a custom setting for that
  976. # [06:29] <dael> plh: Is it normative or informative
  977. # [06:29] <plinss> s/custom setting/custom CR exit criteria/
  978. # [06:29] <dael> TabAtkins: It'll be normative. web browsers must not support it and we don't have to test it to exit CR
  979. # [06:29] <dael> glaz: No obj?
  980. # [06:29] <dael> RESOLVED above plan
  981. # [06:30] <dael> hober: Since clilley seems interested, it might be worth considering the eneral. Do people like that specs that define obsolete features don't need to test those features to exit CR
  982. # [06:30] <dael> hober: So can we resolve now?
  983. # [06:30] <dael> glaz: We just put it no the radar. We define our own criterea.
  984. # [06:31] * astearns http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6919#section-3
  985. # [06:31] <dael> glaz: It's basically a generalization of what we said.
  986. # [06:31] <dael> dbaron: So what is the name of this HTML attr?
  987. # [06:31] <glazou> s/no the/on the
  988. # [06:31] * fantasai doesn't think 6919 applies here
  989. # [06:31] <dael> TabAtkins: I have to look. I saw it in a recent bug.
  990. # [06:32] <dael> RESOLVED: specs that define obsolete features don't need to test those features to exit CR
  991. # [06:32] <dael> dbaron: I want to make sure this really happens b/c we impl the image orientation
  992. # [06:32] <dael> dbaron: I'm okay with changing it, but we're not going to remove image orentation until the HTML exists.
  993. # [06:33] <dael> dbaron: If we leave it too long we may not be able to remove completely
  994. # [06:33] <dael> TabAtkins: Let me ping hixie and get him to put it in.
  995. # [06:33] <dael> dbaron: What I need to know if the attr name and it's not in the spec
  996. # [06:33] <hober> Just making sure it gets minuted that obsolete != deprecated  this resolution is for features that should not be implemented in browser engines
  997. # [06:33] <dael> glaz: You can't say you might obj in the future.
  998. # [06:33] <dael> plinss: Well, you can't say you may have objected in the past.
  999. # [06:33] <dael> glaz: I don't want to make life hard, I want this to be simple now
  1000. # [06:34] <dael> hober: It's always been the case that we can revisit issues if new information arrises.
  1001. # [06:34] <dael> clilley: And in this case if Hixie gets back to TabAtkins and it's not there we need to revisit.
  1002. # [06:34] <dael> dbaron: I think it'll be fine, I'm just saying that it might not be.
  1003. # [06:34] * Joins: Kyounga_ (~Kyounga@public.cloak)
  1004. # [06:35] <dael> TabAtkins: Okay.
  1005. # [06:35] <dael> TabAtkins: Next is two value image resolution.
  1006. # [06:35] <dael> TabAtkins: SimonSapin painted out that some formats allow seperate X and Y resolutions.
  1007. # [06:35] <dael> TabAtkins: Esp. TIFF and technically SVG.
  1008. # [06:35] * TabAtkins http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0568.html
  1009. # [06:35] <dael> hober: That never went through
  1010. # [06:35] * liam used to work with laser printers that had hexagonal pixels
  1011. # [06:35] <dael> TabAtkins: Oh.
  1012. # [06:35] <dael> clilley: I think TIFF is for geoTiff.
  1013. # [06:36] <liam> [ccitt group 4 fax can have different x & y res too]
  1014. # [06:36] * glazou unmuted krit again
  1015. # [06:36] <dael> TabAtkins: There's two resonable answers. One is keep image resolution as spec and when provided with non-square pixals, take the vertical and adjust to create square px
  1016. # [06:36] <dael> clilley: So it would have to resample the image.
  1017. # [06:36] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
  1018. # [06:36] <dael> dbaron: So you're chaning aspect ratio
  1019. # [06:37] <dael> TabAtkins: Transfering from non-square and aspect ratio into square aspect ratio
  1020. # [06:37] <dael> TabAtkins: Asummer there's non-square px.
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  1023. # [06:37] <dael> TabAtkins: We'd say whatever the resolution is we'd set it to the height and the image keeps same size.
  1024. # [06:37] * Joins: silentobserver (~silentobserver@public.cloak)
  1025. # [06:38] <dael> TabAtkins: That's one option. The other is we add 2nd option value to allow it to hand non-square and define how that works with normal
  1026. # [06:38] <dael> hober: So the first possibility req authors to do what?
  1027. # [06:38] <dael> TabAtkins: nothing
  1028. # [06:38] <dael> hober: And the second would allow a new thing that would require impl.
  1029. # [06:38] <dael> TabAtkins: Someone has to write down what's there now
  1030. # [06:38] <dael> clilley: But that's what it has to do now.
  1031. # [06:38] <dael> TabAtkins: Or ignore it completely
  1032. # [06:39] <dael> hober: So where is the burdon of the work
  1033. # [06:39] <dael> TabAtkins: Neither case on authors. Someone has to write it in either case.
  1034. # [06:39] <dael> TabAtkins: So do we care about adding the feature?
  1035. # [06:39] <dael> dbaron: For what it's worth I've had monitors with non-square pixels.
  1036. # [06:39] * Joins: kyungtae (~kyungtae@public.cloak)
  1037. # [06:39] <dael> TabAtkins: Those just map one square to one non-square
  1038. # [06:40] <dael> hober: Seems we need a use case to justify this.
  1039. # [06:40] <dael> hober: What I've heard is there are small number of odd cases and we don't need to add for that
  1040. # [06:40] <dael> dbaron: I thin there was confusion on the wording.
  1041. # [06:40] <dael> dbaron: I think the proposal should be defined so you end up witht he size you want and you shouldn't talk about super samiling.
  1042. # [06:41] <dael> dbaron: You should assume there would be passes at image scaling, but we shouldn't say there has to be 2 passes
  1043. # [06:41] <clilley> I was wrong, its TIFF from Faxes https://forums.adobe.com/message/3843629
  1044. # [06:41] <dbaron> s/passes at/a pass of/
  1045. # [06:41] * Quits: kyounga (~kyounga@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1046. # [06:41] <dael> TabAtkins: So in this case it's spec as 2x2 and wants to be 2x4 and we say that's okay.
  1047. # [06:41] <dbaron> s/samiling/sampling/
  1048. # [06:41] <clilley> https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2627401
  1049. # [06:41] <dael> zcorpan: So we say the size of the pixal are whatever that one dimension is
  1050. # [06:41] <dael> TabAtkins: I prefer one dimension
  1051. # [06:41] <dael> hober: So if you pick width...
  1052. # [06:42] <Rossen_> q
  1053. # [06:42] <Rossen_> q+
  1054. # [06:42] * Zakim sees Rossen_ on the speaker queue
  1055. # [06:42] <dael> clilley: It's not geoTIFF it's TIFF from faxes. It's going away but more wide spread.
  1056. # [06:42] <glazou> Zakim, ack Rossen_
  1057. # [06:42] <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
  1058. # [06:42] <dael> Rossen_: Quic question. What is the intensic size of that image and what do you see in CSS
  1059. # [06:42] <dael> TabAtkins: The size is the number px in that dimension by the size of those.
  1060. # [06:43] <clilley> "A typical fax machine has a default (Standard) horizontal resolution of 8 pels/mm, which is roughly 204 pels per inch (or 204dpi). Some faxes are also capable of increasing the horizontal res to 16 pels/mm - roughly 400dpi."
  1061. # [06:43] <dael> Rossen_: So in your ex it's 2x2
  1062. # [06:43] <dael> TabAtkins: It'll be treated as 2x4
  1063. # [06:43] <dael> Rossen_: So you're saying intrensic size is on the x axis
  1064. # [06:43] <dael> TabAtkins: This will be pixels in the x direction and their size
  1065. # [06:43] <dael> zcorpan: But why the width instead of using the smaller?
  1066. # [06:43] <dael> TabAtkins: Seems easier
  1067. # [06:44] <dael> zcorpan: The image could get smaller than intended
  1068. # [06:44] <dael> TabAtkins: Not smaller, blurrier
  1069. # [06:44] <dael> hober: So we need to say we squaify the image
  1070. # [06:44] <dael> hober: But if we don't say how we can defer to impl
  1071. # [06:44] <dael> TabAtkins: WE still need to say it's interop
  1072. # [06:44] <dael> clilley: [Reads IRC comments]
  1073. # [06:44] <dael> TabAtkins: So it ends up in tall case
  1074. # [06:45] <dael> hober: So if we do width, the fax case will look better.
  1075. # [06:45] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
  1076. # [06:45] <dael> zcorpan: I didn't follow the dimensions
  1077. # [06:45] <dael> TabAtkins: Normally internsic is px x/y. This is px by size of px
  1078. # [06:45] <dael> zcorpan: I think the resulting size should be the same but flipped
  1079. # [06:45] <dael> TabAtkins: No.
  1080. # [06:45] * clilley TIFF stands for Thousands of Incompatible File Formats
  1081. # [06:46] <dael> zcorpan: I want the one to resolve to 2 x 4 because the other is 4 x 2
  1082. # [06:46] <dael> TabAtkins: It is really what dimensionn to you apply image resolution to
  1083. # [06:46] <dael> hober: Let me try. There are two dimensions. One of them is more interesting.
  1084. # [06:46] * dbaron thousands of incompatible tagged image file formats?
  1085. # [06:47] <dael> hober: In an information way, there's more going on. So if you break up the other dimension you're not losing quality
  1086. # [06:47] <dael> TabAtkins: zcorpan is suggesting to never break up image quality
  1087. # [06:47] <dael> hober: So both are easy to impl, one is slightly more complex.
  1088. # [06:48] <dael> zcorpan: I think HTML spec deals with this for video. I haven't been able to pull it up, but I think it uses smaller dimension
  1089. # [06:48] <dael> TabAtkins: Interesting.
  1090. # [06:48] <dael> plinss: non-square is more common in video
  1091. # [06:48] <dael> TabAtkins: So that is what it does, use the smaller?
  1092. # [06:48] <dael> hober: Can we resolve now to match HTML?
  1093. # [06:48] <dael> TabAtkins: That's fine.
  1094. # [06:49] <dael> TabAtkins: So, squaify the pixels...
  1095. # [06:49] <dael> zcorpan: [reads the spec text]
  1096. # [06:49] <dael> zcorpan: so if you have the right case, you stretch.
  1097. # [06:49] <dael> TabAtkins: So it's making sure you never lose information.
  1098. # [06:50] <dael> TabAtkins: So apply resolution to the smaller pixel size.
  1099. # [06:50] <dael> clilley: Sample up not down
  1100. # [06:50] <zcorpan> "If an anamorphic format does not define how to apply the aspect ratio to the video data's dimensions to obtain the "correct" dimensions, then the user agent must apply the ratio by increasing one dimension and leaving the other unchanged." http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-video-element.html#concept-video-intrinsic-width
  1101. # [06:50] <dael> TabAtkins: That's fine.
  1102. # [06:50] <dael> clilley: I found two more use cases. One is some video callbacks, the other is space imaging using scan.
  1103. # [06:50] <dbaron> s/callbacks/formats/
  1104. # [06:51] <liam> [many flatbed scanner devices can also generate images with different x and y resolutions - usually in TIFF]
  1105. # [06:51] <clilley> linescan Narrow Angle Camera images
  1106. # [06:51] <dael> TabAtkins: proposed res is keep resolution with a single value and apply that value to the smaller of the two pixel dimensions. Then treat it like it has square pixels while maintining image aspect ratio
  1107. # [06:51] <dael> hober: Can you coordinate that with Ian to defer to HTML?
  1108. # [06:51] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
  1109. # [06:51] * dbaron should discuss the old geostationary weather satellites (e.g., GOES-7 and earlier, I think) with clilley
  1110. # [06:51] <dael> TabAtkins: Though it sounds the HTML video turns the pixels square.
  1111. # [06:52] <zcorpan> s/maintining/maintaining/
  1112. # [06:52] <dael> TabAtkins: I can think on this a bit.
  1113. # [06:52] <dael> clilley: What do you mean turns them square. You mean distorts aspect ratio?
  1114. # [06:52] <dael> plinss: sometimes you want to do that in video.
  1115. # [06:52] <dael> hober: I'm hoping for a default that can be in UA sheet and matching HTML video.
  1116. # [06:53] <clilley> for video. it isn't appropriate for those fax and scanner tiffs
  1117. # [06:53] <dael> adenilson: I have a question. The description is for both, isn't it resampling, but favoring the smaller resolution axis?
  1118. # [06:53] <dael> TabAtkins: It has to be harder because you can't just take the smaller size because you want to make sure elements stay wide/tall
  1119. # [06:53] <dael> adenilson: So we won't resample in the same way both axis.
  1120. # [06:53] <dael> TabAtkins: yes
  1121. # [06:54] <dael> adenilson: So it won't be semetric, it'll be asemetric. If I recall a similar stategy in a misnathop sampling
  1122. # [06:54] <dael> adenilson: So we can say in such a case we can go with that sampling
  1123. # [06:54] <dael> tab
  1124. # [06:54] <dael> yes
  1125. # [06:54] * Quits: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1126. # [06:54] <clilley> s/misanthrop/anisotropic/
  1127. # [06:54] <dael> adenilson: If is reqall there's a mathematical formula
  1128. # [06:54] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't know, but I'm happy to write something up and have you suggest better temrs
  1129. # [06:55] <clilley> s/misnathop/anisotropic/
  1130. # [06:55] <dael> TabAtkins: I need to publish a new thing for Images. These are the big changes. Would we be okay with a quick 3 week LC to CR cycle?
  1131. # [06:55] <dael> fantasai: I think we should fold in all the changes.
  1132. # [06:55] <dael> TabAtkins: After I edit
  1133. # [06:55] <dael> fantasai: Let's do that and give a week on www-style for people to notice changes.
  1134. # [06:55] <dael> dbaron: What'st he timeline fort he new w3c process.
  1135. # [06:56] <dael> clilley: 6 months to a year and there's an odd transisiton period.
  1136. # [06:56] <dael> plh: And the reason is that new specs will reach LC for a short period
  1137. # [06:56] <dael> TabAtkins: That's in most cases, yes.
  1138. # [06:56] <dael> TabAtkins: So it's a bit more busy work, but we'll cycle quick. In two weeks I'll ask for a LC
  1139. # [06:57] <dael> TabAtkins: So please have objections ready.
  1140. # [06:57] <dael> Topic: Values and Units
  1141. # [06:57] <dael> TabAtkins: How to handle custom identifiers
  1142. # [06:57] <dael> fantasai: Didn't we say this was wording
  1143. # [06:57] <dael> TabAtkins: no.
  1144. # [06:58] <dael> TabAtkins: custom-idents are used in ways where they can't be distinguished just on position
  1145. # [06:58] <dael> TabAtkins: ex animation name or list style types
  1146. # [06:58] <dael> TabAtkins: You can provide an animation name backwarkds or you can do a list style called inside.
  1147. # [06:58] <dael> TabAtkins: How to handle those is something we want to establish genericly
  1148. # [06:58] <dael> TabAtkins: There's three cases. Some where custom-iidents are completely seperated
  1149. # [06:59] <dael> TabAtkins: examples are line names in grid shorthands
  1150. # [06:59] * Zakim dael, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  1151. # [06:59] <SimonSapin> ("completely separated…" sometimes)
  1152. # [06:59] <dael> TabAtkins: You can say for example 10px(foo)20px(bar)
  1153. # [06:59] <dael> TabAtkins: The only rule is that they can't be global words.
  1154. # [06:59] <dael> TabAtkins: There's nothing else they can be ambiguous with.
  1155. # [06:59] * plh notes that new W3C Process could take effect as early as end of June
  1156. # [07:00] <dael> TabAtkins: But if you do grid-row: span-foo and that could be potentially weird if you called foo span
  1157. # [07:00] * fantasai tosses some spaces around those parens up there
  1158. # [07:00] <fantasai> s/span-foo/span foo/
  1159. # [07:00] <dael> TabAtkins: This could be weird, not ambigious because there's strict wording.
  1160. # [07:00] * dbaron is waiting for buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo in CSS
  1161. # [07:00] <dael> TabAtkins: So because of positioning it's not technically ambigous
  1162. # [07:01] <fantasai> [Tab edits s/foo/span/ to make the example more illustrative]
  1163. # [07:01] <dael> TabAtkins: The harder case is @counter-style inside {...} and later say list-style: inside url()
  1164. # [07:01] <fantasai> TabAtkins^: grid-row: span span 2;
  1165. # [07:01] * fantasai that goes above the ambiguous line
  1166. # [07:01] <dael> TabAtkins: What option does this mean?
  1167. # [07:02] <dael> TabAtkins: It's not ambigous if you say list-style-type: inside
  1168. # [07:02] <dael> TabAtkins: Shorthand magic can move this into a prop where it's ambigous
  1169. # [07:02] <dael> TabAtkins: There's two options. We take the closure of any shorthands that may appear in a value and dsiallow them.
  1170. # [07:02] <dael> TabAtkins: You could still use counter-style inside in counter where it's ambigous
  1171. # [07:03] <dael> TabAtkins: The other option is to let it say and have generic handling rules. We have those and we could use those, even though they're not great
  1172. # [07:03] <dael> TabAtkins: I believe animation handling rules are you look for a keyword that matches all the names and if you can't find one you use the last one.
  1173. # [07:03] * hober http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/86185680362/span-grid-def-rows-10px-span-20px-span
  1174. # [07:04] <dael> dbaron: I think it matters what you've used values for. You can say animation backwards backwads
  1175. # [07:04] * Joins: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak)
  1176. # [07:04] <dael> dbaron: Or forward backwards. I think it says that the first value since you don't have a direction it's a direction. And since you have a drection backwards is your animation name
  1177. # [07:04] <dael> TabAtkins: In the related case of forwards infinate..
  1178. # [07:04] * fantasai hopes we are consistent in the use of plurals for all forwards and backwards in CSS
  1179. # [07:04] <dael> dbaron: In that case forward is direction and infinate is...??
  1180. # [07:05] * hober that would be awfully forward-looking of us, fantasai
  1181. # [07:05] <dael> TabAtkins: But wouldn't that be invalid?
  1182. # [07:05] <dael> dbaron: Maybe
  1183. # [07:05] * hober forwards-looking, sorry
  1184. # [07:05] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm not sure what the spec requires.
  1185. # [07:05] <dael> dbaron: No, it doesn't. Maybe it should
  1186. # [07:05] <dael> TabAtkins: It should. the property doesn't define anything without a name
  1187. # [07:05] <dael> dbaron: Well it's none.
  1188. # [07:05] <dael> astearns: It says if ambigous you can't interpret as none
  1189. # [07:06] <dael> dbaron: [reads example 4[] That's seriealiztion
  1190. # [07:06] * fantasai nope http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-marquee/#the-marquee-direction
  1191. # [07:06] <dael> TabAtkins: If none if the list of animation names, that's fine.
  1192. # [07:06] <dael> dbaron: None is a value of amination fill mode.
  1193. # [07:06] <dael> dbaron: So you can have none in the animation name properties
  1194. # [07:06] <glazou> hober: I think Rossen_ just sent to the private list a nice photo AND legend for a meme
  1195. # [07:06] <dael> dbaron: Even better, non is the value of another value in animation shorthand
  1196. # [07:06] * Zakim dael, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  1197. # [07:06] <dael> TabAtkins: And do we diambiguate that?
  1198. # [07:07] <clilley> zakim, get a life :)
  1199. # [07:07] <Zakim> I'm glad that smiley is there, clilley
  1200. # [07:07] <dael> dbaron: I know what I would write...[reads spec]
  1201. # [07:07] <dael> dbaron: So it doesn't explain forwards backwards.
  1202. # [07:07] <dael> TabAtkins: So the animation: fowards backwards is weird
  1203. # [07:07] <dael> TabAtkins: Animation in general is weird but I'm okay with it.
  1204. # [07:07] <dael> dbaron: I'm not crazy about it. It makes serialization hard.
  1205. # [07:08] <dael> TabAtkins: You always have to serialize animation name last.
  1206. # [07:08] <dael> TabAtkins: And that makes...
  1207. # [07:08] <dael> dbaron: You not only have to serealize last, but you have to serialize anything that takes a keyword value of what your animation is
  1208. # [07:08] <dael> zcorpan: Doesn't font keyword have similar?
  1209. # [07:08] <dael> TabAtkins: They have positional knowledge that makes it unabmigous.
  1210. # [07:09] <fantasai> by keyword, we mean shorthand, right?
  1211. # [07:09] <dael> zcorpan: If you spec small caps small caps...
  1212. # [07:09] <dael> TabAtkins: you can't it's unvalid
  1213. # [07:09] <dael> dbaron: I don't like the animation shortand and maybe should have pushed back more
  1214. # [07:09] <dael> TabAtkins: I agree.
  1215. # [07:09] <dael> TabAtkins: I tried to push for a change and we couldn't.
  1216. # [07:09] <dael> hober: It was too late
  1217. # [07:10] <dael> dbaron: Animation and transition do the same with times
  1218. # [07:10] <dael> dbaron: So 0 without units aren't valid times
  1219. # [07:10] <dael> TabAtkins: Time and duration aren't ambig for transition
  1220. # [07:10] <dael> TabAtkins: So with the calification that animation forward backwards should take the last
  1221. # [07:10] <SimonSapin> Was custom-ident just a bad idea?
  1222. # [07:11] <dael> TabAtkins: A property with a custom-ident will look to assign to everything but the custom-ident first
  1223. # [07:11] <dael> TabAtkins: Or is the custom is required, it would take the last value
  1224. # [07:11] <dael> dbaron: The last rule could require a lot of llok ahread
  1225. # [07:11] <dael> dbaron: If animation name was required and you see keywords you might have the number in twice.
  1226. # [07:11] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes. Unlike in this case where it would work
  1227. # [07:12] <dael> TabAtkins: Maybe we require that if a custom ident is required it must be diambigouated via position
  1228. # [07:12] <dael> TabAtkins: I just want some rules here.
  1229. # [07:12] <dael> astearns: To be clear we'd discussing this as option 2 where option 1 is not allow those keywords aas idents
  1230. # [07:13] * glazou is melting
  1231. # [07:13] <dael> TabAtkins: Yeah. In places where the closure of grammer would creat problems
  1232. # [07:13] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't like it.
  1233. # [07:13] <dael> TabAtkins: Regardless of option, there will be problems.
  1234. # [07:13] <dael> TabAtkins: If we take option 1 every time we add a value, it would be an error
  1235. # [07:13] <dael> TabAtkins: Option 2 could cause you to parse funky
  1236. # [07:14] <dael> TabAtkins: option 1 is take the closure of all the value keywords that could show up and disalow as custom idents in that position
  1237. # [07:14] <dael> TabAtkins: option 2 is parse like animation name and we make sure it's well defined for corner cases
  1238. # [07:14] <dael> fantasai: Isn't that similar to list style for non?
  1239. # [07:14] <dael> TabAtkins: No. If it's none in the url it says it's a keyword
  1240. # [07:14] <dael> dbaron: So these examples can be parsed left to right and list style can't
  1241. # [07:15] * Joins: snsk (~snsk@public.cloak)
  1242. # [07:15] <dael> hober: Does option 1 require us to incomp change animation name
  1243. # [07:16] <dael> TabAtkins: If we wanted to apply generically, yes. Obviously that's not an option.
  1244. # [07:16] <fantasai> s/in the url/and a url/
  1245. # [07:16] <dael> TabAtkins: If we go with this there's an animation exception
  1246. # [07:16] * myakura .air { flow-into: room }
  1247. # [07:16] <fantasai> s/keyword/keyword, if it's none and a style type, it says it's an image/
  1248. # [07:16] <dael> TabAtkins: There's one more that I forgot to mention. Take the closure. There's also disallow all keywords in given context
  1249. # [07:16] * fantasai air { flow-into: room } /* air is elemental, not classical */
  1250. # [07:16] <dael> dbaron: So a problem with 1 is that it creates more compat rsk when adding keywords.
  1251. # [07:17] <dael> dbaron: In 2 we have a risk witht he shorthand, but stuff that has longhand is okay
  1252. # [07:17] <dael> TabAtkins: There's also 1 1/2 that disallows in a given property context.
  1253. # [07:17] <dael> TabAtkins: So if you try and do inside and there isn't a value you get an empty string.
  1254. # [07:18] * liam did wonder :)
  1255. # [07:19] * Joins: yamamoto (~yamamoto@public.cloak)
  1256. # [07:19] <SimonSapin> (I can’t here fantasai :/)
  1257. # [07:19] <dael> TabAtkins: In option 1 it's at risk. It's orignally valid, but it suddly becomes invalid
  1258. # [07:19] <SimonSapin> s/here/hear/
  1259. # [07:19] <dael> dbaron: We still have risk that shorthand will get parsedinto new properties.
  1260. # [07:19] * fantasai will talk louder next time
  1261. # [07:19] <dael> dbaron: Some structures are less likely to trigger.
  1262. # [07:19] <SimonSapin> (thanks)
  1263. # [07:19] <dael> dbaron: If you fully spec we can do that last.
  1264. # [07:20] <dael> TabAtkins: We can add a long hand to the short hand that overlaps the custom ident.
  1265. # [07:20] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't like #1. Option 2 is less bad, but means you can't serialize.
  1266. # [07:20] <fantasai> 1. Disallow keywords from closure of shorthands
  1267. # [07:20] * Zakim fantasai, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  1268. # [07:20] <dael> TabAtkins: Option 3 is weird but somewhat familar from animation.
  1269. # [07:20] <fantasai> 2. Disallow keywords in the individual current context
  1270. # [07:20] <fantasai> 3. Whatever 'animation' does
  1271. # [07:20] <dael> TabAtkins: A lot of changes won't have an effect.
  1272. # [07:21] <dael> hober: I prefer 3, but it's because 1 and 2 are under defined
  1273. # [07:21] <dael> hober: 1 and 2 are easy to explain but three is a little washy
  1274. # [07:21] <hober> s/1 and 2 are under/it's under/
  1275. # [07:21] <dael> astearns: You said 3 was more familiar, but you can't define it easily
  1276. # [07:22] <dael> dbaron: 3 is you define as you find properties and leave custom to the end. your preference puts custom idents last
  1277. # [07:22] <dael> dbaron: As part of that you don't consider prop you've already assigned to.
  1278. # [07:22] <dael> TabAtkins: That requires we adopt a rule that you never had a required amb. custom ident.
  1279. # [07:22] <dael> TabAtkins: If you have a req it must be positionally unambigous.
  1280. # [07:22] <dael> dbaron: In general having positioning req for complex shorthands is good
  1281. # [07:23] <dael> hober: Do we think options 3 can be explained in a way for spec authors to follow
  1282. # [07:23] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes. It's easy to say here's what you do. Writing grammer is easier than parsing grammer.
  1283. # [07:23] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm happy to do 3.
  1284. # [07:23] <dael> TabAtkins: Once animation defines animate: forwards infinate; correctly
  1285. # [07:24] <dael> zcorpan: For new things isn't it better to req the order.
  1286. # [07:24] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes. That will be part of spec guidelines. Try and make it positionally unamb.
  1287. # [07:24] <dael> zcorpan: So whatever we choose here new things won't use this
  1288. # [07:24] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
  1289. # [07:24] <dael> hober: Should we resolve on that first?
  1290. # [07:24] <dael> TabAtkins: Only time it'll be happen is times like when you retrofit
  1291. # [07:24] <dael> TabAtkins: Whatever we decide shouldn't apply here.
  1292. # [07:25] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak) ("")
  1293. # [07:25] <dael> TabAtkins: propr res: Any new properties with custom-ident make them positionally unambigous.
  1294. # [07:25] <dael> RESOLVED: Any new properties with custom-ident make them positionally unambigous.
  1295. # [07:25] <SimonSapin> Is that a "should" for new specs?
  1296. # [07:25] <dael> TabAtkins: Second is we handle the list style custom ident in the fashion of animation.
  1297. # [07:26] <dael> TabAtkins: In general for any custom idents that violate the above, we use the animation style
  1298. # [07:26] <dael> fantasai: So what about the good stuff?
  1299. # [07:26] <dael> TabAtkins: Grid is unabigous
  1300. # [07:26] <dael> dbaron: And at the break you'll help me fix the anmation spec
  1301. # [07:26] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
  1302. # [07:26] <dael> TabAtkins: So for grid you can just put whatever you want expect global
  1303. # [07:27] <dael> fantasai: There may be other cases where we want to diallow
  1304. # [07:27] <dael> TabAtkins: There are places you can disallow individual things.
  1305. # [07:27] <dael> TabAtkins: In general the rule being there's not auto-disallowed
  1306. # [07:28] <dael> fantasai: From a spec prospective you may want to figure out what keywords you want.
  1307. # [07:28] <dael> fantasai: So we should have a note in custom valeus
  1308. # [07:28] <dael> TabAtkins: Any obj to that resolution?
  1309. # [07:28] <dael> RESOLVED: we handle the list-style custom ident in the fashion of animation.
  1310. # [07:29] <dael> TabAtkins: That's the...ah yes. Order combinator
  1311. # [07:29] <dael> TabAtkins: We have combinators for grammer for five of the six common combinations
  1312. # [07:30] <dael> TabAtkins: we have { zero+, one+, all+} x {in-order, any-order}
  1313. # [07:30] <astearns> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Apr/0230.html
  1314. # [07:31] <dael> TabAtkins: So we can address these so there's a big question mark that can't be addressed without grammer contortions
  1315. # [07:31] <dbaron> (the question mark being one+, in order)
  1316. # [07:31] <dael> TabAtkins: You can do a | a? b
  1317. # [07:31] <dael> TabAtkins: This is showing up in enough grammer that we should have it. Background position, image function, it's a lot.
  1318. # [07:32] <dael> TabAtkins: For now I propose a??b, but we can do anything we want.
  1319. # [07:32] <dael> TabAtkins: So do people think we should add this or if we do what combinator should this be?
  1320. # [07:32] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak)
  1321. # [07:32] <dael> zcorpan: I thought we concluded this couldn't work because of combinator issues
  1322. # [07:32] <dael> TabAtkins: Is there a better idea than ?? or any issue with addnig to the grammer
  1323. # [07:32] <dael> jet: Is whitespace required
  1324. # [07:33] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
  1325. # [07:33] <dael> hober: How common is this?
  1326. # [07:33] <dael> TabAtkins: It shows in several places and it's always weird to read
  1327. # [07:33] * krit am back in 1.5h. I would really like to see Geometry Interfaces FPWD and Masking LC on the agenda and don't really care when.
  1328. # [07:33] <dael> hober: Does anyone have this where we can borrot it from?
  1329. # [07:33] <dauwhe_> s/borrot/borrow/
  1330. # [07:33] <dael> dbaron: I'm not crazy about having the thing in between. The in order ones use space sperated stuff
  1331. # [07:34] <dael> TabAtkins: Another suggestion was [a? b?]!
  1332. # [07:34] <dael> dbaron: I think it's less crazy from reading view.
  1333. # [07:34] <dael> TabAtkins: So you like the symetry of the in-orders?
  1334. # [07:34] <dael> hober: There's other cases that might have complex sub production that needs to be non-empty
  1335. # [07:35] <dael> TabAtkins: That is possible. I'm not sure we need it, but it's possible
  1336. # [07:35] <clilley> [a? b?]±
  1337. # [07:35] <dael> TabAtkins: I want to express this somehow. I just don't know how
  1338. # [07:35] <liam> a b? | b might be clearer
  1339. # [07:35] <dael> TabAtkins: While we usually use white space, we do sometimes use commas. It's verbose to use commas whichi s why we use the # multiplier
  1340. # [07:35] <dael> TabAtkins: Having a way to handle commas in these productions would be nice, but I don't know how.
  1341. # [07:36] <dael> dbaron: I appliers to all of them
  1342. # [07:36] <dael> TabAtkins: Commas are easy for a b but hard for the rest
  1343. # [07:36] * glazou wants a swimming pool
  1344. # [07:36] * dbaron thought it was all the ones in the first two columns, but it's indeed 5 of the 6
  1345. # [07:36] <dael> TabAtkins: If you're doing multiple of these it would be nice to have a comma
  1346. # [07:37] <dael> zcorpan: Would it work to put the comma in the grammer for all and say the comma must be there if left or right keywords are there, elseiwse you omit.
  1347. # [07:37] <dael> TabAtkins: I like that. I like simple, but I'm not sure where to put the comma for all of them
  1348. # [07:37] * liam offers glazou his swimming pool
  1349. # [07:37] <dael> TabAtkins: I like that you need to comma if you need to disambiguate, but elsewise leave it off.
  1350. # [07:37] <dael> zcorpan: Is there grammer that uses the comma for the space?
  1351. # [07:37] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't think there is in CSS
  1352. # [07:38] <dael> zcorpan: So we can add the comma thing
  1353. # [07:38] * glazou liam this room is a stove, really
  1354. # [07:38] * liam :(
  1355. # [07:38] <dael> TabAtkins: Yeah. We could have the comma just show up there and deal with the any-orders later
  1356. # [07:38] <dael> TabAtkins: I think you didn't like [a? b?]!, fantasai
  1357. # [07:38] <dael> fantasai: It doesn't seem like a multiplier
  1358. # [07:38] <dael> TabAtkins: Well it's not really.
  1359. # [07:39] <dael> plinss: It seems like the ? are redundant with []
  1360. # [07:39] <dael> TabAtkins: No, the [] are grouping not functional
  1361. # [07:39] <dael> hober: So the [] are to group and the ! is to say it has to return something
  1362. # [07:39] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm okay with a form like [a? b?]!
  1363. # [07:39] <dael> fantasai: It seemslike a lot of punctuation
  1364. # [07:40] <dael> hober: It avoid the redundency.
  1365. # [07:40] <dael> hober: It doesn't read to me that a or b are optional
  1366. # [07:40] <dael> TabAtkins: Or that order matters
  1367. # [07:40] <dael> hober: The grouping with the ! says that hte order matters
  1368. # [07:40] <dael> TabAtkins: So add something in place of the ?.
  1369. # [07:40] <dael> TabAtkins: We're not bound by characters.
  1370. # [07:41] <dael> hober: Use the interrobang
  1371. # [07:41] <dael> TabAtkins: You'd have to use grouping.
  1372. # [07:41] <dbaron> ‽
  1373. # [07:41] <dael> hober: That does highlight the the existing syntax does matter.
  1374. # [07:41] <dael> TabAtkins: It says the quisi-optional things are quasi-optional in the group
  1375. # [07:41] * dbaron offers ¡ a? b? !
  1376. # [07:41] * jdaggett egads
  1377. # [07:41] <dael> zcorpan: I don't like ??
  1378. # [07:42] <dael> TabAtkins: Should we eliminate the ‽ I guess we should
  1379. # [07:42] <dbaron> group eliminates a ?? b and eliminates a‽ b‽
  1380. # [07:42] * hober ¡important
  1381. # [07:42] <liam> sometimes a less expressive grammar is easier for people to learn and use, even f it's sometimes cumbersome
  1382. # [07:42] <dael> TabAtkins: So [a? b?]! ?
  1383. # [07:42] * dbaron ¡important!
  1384. # [07:42] <dael> TabAtkins: The other alternative is a grouper becides square brackets
  1385. # [07:43] <dael> TabAtkins: WE have the whole ascii space to work with
  1386. # [07:43] <dael> TabAtkins: We could use <a? b?>
  1387. # [07:43] * dauwhe_ ‽
  1388. # [07:43] * dauwhe_ just had to see an interobang in IRC
  1389. # [07:43] <dael> TabAtkins: So remaining brackets are {} << >>
  1390. # [07:44] <dael> hober: Why are we doing new groupers?
  1391. # [07:44] <dael> hober: Oh, I see the new grouper implies the bang.
  1392. # [07:44] <dael> dbaron: I'm happy the the [] and !
  1393. # [07:44] <dael> TabAtkins: So does anyone obj to the !?
  1394. # [07:44] <dael> shans_: What happens if there are things in there without ?
  1395. # [07:44] <dael> TabAtkins: It's required to be non-empty
  1396. # [07:45] * Quits: Kyounga_ (~Kyounga@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1397. # [07:45] <dael> TabAtkins: so a?! = a
  1398. # [07:45] <dael> fantasai: I guess we could do ?!
  1399. # [07:45] <dael> TabAtkins: If we do a single modified we need the grouping
  1400. # [07:45] <dael> plinss: So how about ! instead of ?
  1401. # [07:46] <dael> TabAtkins: That's implicit grouping. So we'd have to as a! b! || c, how to we sort that?
  1402. # [07:46] <dael> hober: You get it but it's harder to read
  1403. # [07:46] <dael> TabAtkins: Here's a more ambigous case a! b! c d! e!
  1404. # [07:46] <dael> TabAtkins: The answer is if you have vaguely ambigous you need groupers
  1405. # [07:47] <dael> fantasai: So in that is there a situation where you'd want one of a b and d?
  1406. # [07:47] <dael> fantasai: So you'd want a multiplier grouper
  1407. # [07:47] * dbaron ⸘ a b ‽ (running out of characters for syntax jokes)
  1408. # [07:47] <dael> hober: So are you talking about the case where a c is okay a d is okay but a e isn't.
  1409. # [07:48] <dael> TabAtkins: She's saying where if you have htis just c is no good, but one of the ! is required plus the required c
  1410. # [07:48] <dael> dbaron: I seems like it should be more important than not a !
  1411. # [07:48] <dael> fantasai: Idea: you take a character and within that level of grouping you have to have at least one thing with that character
  1412. # [07:48] <dael> fantasai: So if you have multi levels and you want to group it would apply across the entire thing
  1413. # [07:49] <dael> TabAtkins: And if a ! appears at least of the !ed things would be required.
  1414. # [07:49] <dael> fantasai: Instead of a grouping symbol, we need a symbol that says this thing must appear
  1415. # [07:49] * liam lost as to why extra syntax is needed if the existing grammar can express it and blames collective jetlag :)
  1416. # [07:49] <fantasai> at least one of the marked things must appear
  1417. # [07:49] <dael> fantasai: I think interrobang would be better there.
  1418. # [07:50] <dael> hober: I suggested it because if you're using this in your syntax it's already gone wrong. So in the case of [a? b?]! saying the entire group must be non empty
  1419. # [07:50] <dael> hober: We're not adding a feature that works inside of the group.
  1420. # [07:50] <dael> hober: So it's not a magical case where you need context to understand.
  1421. # [07:50] <dael> TabAtkins: Right.
  1422. # [07:50] <dael> hober: Putting it on the group makes it clear it's for the whole group
  1423. # [07:51] <dbaron> ‽
  1424. # [07:51] <dael> glaz: Don't think of this. We'll get questions.
  1425. # [07:51] <dael> fantasai: No one will type this
  1426. # [07:52] <dael> dbaron: I agree that this feels too complicated
  1427. # [07:52] <dael> TabAtkins: On the other hand you like having to interpret what grammer means?
  1428. # [07:52] <dael> dbaron: I don't like action at a distrance
  1429. # [07:52] <dael> hober: We suggested new groupers to limit charactes, but this adds even more characters
  1430. # [07:52] * glazou cannot believe we're considering using interrobang in specs
  1431. # [07:52] <dael> plinss: That's because one is non-optional
  1432. # [07:52] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak) ("")
  1433. # [07:53] <dael> TabAtkins: I like the features, but I also like something simple
  1434. # [07:53] * astearns cannot believe the interrobang doesn't get proposed in every other grammar discussion
  1435. # [07:53] <dael> TabAtkins: What I want is handling the simipliest common case and say anything fancier write it out.
  1436. # [07:53] <dael> TabAtkins: So it sounds like we could resolve on [a? b?]! for one+ in-order?
  1437. # [07:53] <dael> fantasai: I'm going to vote no and everyone else can vote yes
  1438. # [07:53] <dbaron> fantasai still prefers the [ a‽ b‽ ]
  1439. # [07:54] <liam> [a? b?]! would be [a | b] yes?? or, [a+ b* | b+ ] instead?
  1440. # [07:54] <dael> hober: can you live with it fantasai
  1441. # [07:54] <dael> fantasai: I can live with it, but I'm unhappy with it.
  1442. # [07:54] <dael> fantasai: You lose anbilitiy
  1443. # [07:54] <dael> TabAtkins: But you can always write in prose
  1444. # [07:54] <dael> fantasai: I don't like the grouper has to match the multipier etc.
  1445. # [07:54] <dael> astearns: The instance you wrote out doesn't have cases.
  1446. # [07:55] <dael> TabAtkins: That's true.
  1447. # [07:55] * Quits: kyungtae (~kyungtae@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1448. # [07:55] <dael> TabAtkins: I'll catch liam's comment in a sec.
  1449. # [07:55] <dael> hober: Any objections?
  1450. # [07:55] * TabAtkins liam, no, [a? b?]! === a | [ a? b ]
  1451. # [07:55] <dael> fantasai: Where this shows up tends to be so complex, having one lessg rouper would be good
  1452. # [07:56] <dael> dbaron: But if the problem is too many groupers being explicit would be better.
  1453. # [07:56] <TabAtkins> It's "a and/or b, in that order".
  1454. # [07:56] <dael> hober: The impicit grouping is just as cognatively complex as this group
  1455. # [07:56] <dael> fantasai: It's the same as a combinator and that doesn't add the extra level
  1456. # [07:57] <liam> maybe and/or would be a better symbol to add to the grammar then
  1457. # [07:57] <dael> RESOLVED: Use [a? b?]! for the one+ in-order grammar
  1458. # [07:57] <dael> TabAtkins: Related is SimonSapin comment about commas
  1459. # [07:57] <astearns> s/simonsapin/zcorpan/
  1460. # [07:57] <dael> TabAtkins: So if I wanted a? b? you need to have the comma to seperate. If it's both you need the comma
  1461. # [07:57] * Joins: clilley_ (~clilley@public.cloak)
  1462. # [07:58] * Quits: clilley (~clilley@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1463. # [07:58] <dael> dbaron: We can hyperlink the commas
  1464. # [07:58] <dael> TabAtkins: We can do that
  1465. # [07:58] <SimonSapin> hyperlink all the things
  1466. # [07:58] <dael> TabAtkins: Sounds good. Can someone file an issue on bikeshead
  1467. # [07:58] <dael> fantasai: The current template has the values
  1468. # [07:58] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
  1469. # [07:59] * clilley_ Algol68 grammar required the user to distinguish a comma and an *italic comma*
  1470. # [07:59] * dauwhe_ [hyperlink? bikeshed?]! all of the things.
  1471. # [07:59] <dael> plinss: So we can't use ,? because there's a patint on that (the , being in the space of the.)
  1472. # [07:59] <glazou> s/patint/patent
  1473. # [07:59] <dael> dbaron: I will file the bikeshead issue
  1474. # [07:59] <dael> TabAtkins: Anything else with values and units?
  1475. # [07:59] * plinss http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=WO&NR=9219458&KC=&FT=E&locale=en_EP
  1476. # [07:59] <dael> TabAtkins: Publish an update
  1477. # [08:00] <dael> RESOLVED: Publish an update
  1478. # [08:00] <dael> TabAtkins: How long is the LC? 3 weeks?
  1479. # [08:00] <zcorpan> s/bikeshead/bikeshed/g
  1480. # [08:00] <dael> clilley_: We have to ask other chairs for options
  1481. # [08:00] <dael> TabAtkins: Okay, are we fine with proposing three weeks
  1482. # [08:00] <dael> group: yes
  1483. # [08:01] <dael> break = 10 minutes
  1484. # [08:04] * myakura found ⸮ but too late
  1485. # [08:05] * Quits: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1486. # [08:06] * Joins: Kyounga (~Kyounga@public.cloak)
  1487. # [08:12] * Joins: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak)
  1488. # [08:12] * Quits: snsk (~snsk@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1489. # [08:13] * Quits: Kyounga (~Kyounga@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
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  1492. # [08:21] <dael> glaz: Let's resume
  1493. # [08:21] <dael> TabAtkins: Alright.
  1494. # [08:22] <dael> TabAtkins: Counter styles. There are 3 issues that I don't know how to resolve
  1495. # [08:22] <dael> TabAtkins: The fourth is in line with what we did in animations
  1496. # [08:22] <dael> dbaron: There's a reply to one of your messages so there might be a 5th.
  1497. # [08:22] * Joins: adenilson_ (~anonymous@public.cloak)
  1498. # [08:22] <dael> TabAtkins: He's just saying I need to define range-auto. I will do that.
  1499. # [08:22] * Quits: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1500. # [08:22] * adenilson_ is now known as adenilson
  1501. # [08:23] <dael> TabAtkins: First issue
  1502. # [08:23] <TabAtkins> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014May/0146.html
  1503. # [08:23] <dael> TabAtkins: How do we read out counter styles in interesting manners
  1504. # [08:24] <dael> TabAtkins: There's speak-as which lets you say to read the numeric value, read as a bullet, or read alphabetical values
  1505. # [08:24] <dael> TabAtkins: There's some where it might be good to read as a word.
  1506. # [08:24] * Joins: kyungtae (~androirc@public.cloak)
  1507. # [08:25] <dael> TabAtkins: And example was a text on Tolkin and you were doing your lists with numbering quenyan you'd want them read out in that language
  1508. # [08:25] <dael> TabAtkins: The question is should we add speaking out counter styles as words, using whatever engines that you have for speech.
  1509. # [08:25] <clilley_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quenya
  1510. # [08:25] <dael> TabAtkins: So that something like and system:fixed; symbols: "first", "second"... will be read as first, secdon, etc.
  1511. # [08:26] <dael> TabAtkins: So should we address this or we can just say no change and let it just be called numeric.
  1512. # [08:26] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm fine with adding a value, but wanted to avoid obj.
  1513. # [08:27] <dael> hober: It seems easy to get internationalizion wrong. I made a cool set of styles and say you can read as 1, 2, etc. and someone uses them in a different language it would be read as first...
  1514. # [08:27] <dael> TabAtkins: But that's the right way to do it.
  1515. # [08:27] <dael> dbaron: The normal case is speak-as numeric, though that says 1, 2
  1516. # [08:27] <dael> TabAtkins: It ignores what the symbol is. This would let it literally read the word.
  1517. # [08:27] <dael> hober: And if you have a symbol?
  1518. # [08:27] <dael> TabAtkins: It would do whatever your reader does
  1519. # [08:28] <dael> dbaron: And I think alphabetic should be something like spelled out?
  1520. # [08:28] <dael> TabAtkins: Yeah. I'm fine with changing that
  1521. # [08:28] <dael> fantasai: So this is the alt proposal?
  1522. # [08:28] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes. The way this would be done, it allows the alt proposal in a slightly more complex way
  1523. # [08:28] <dael> dbaron: speak-as can refer to a differenet counter style
  1524. # [08:29] <dael> TabAtkins: So if you have a list of symbols where you want them names as something, you would use speak-as that.
  1525. # [08:29] * dauwhe_ proposal to encode Tengwar in Unicode: http://std.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC2/WG2/docs/n1641/n1641.htm
  1526. # [08:29] <dael> TabAtkins: So does anyone obj to me adding this?
  1527. # [08:29] <dael> [silence]
  1528. # [08:29] * Joins: murakami (~murakami@public.cloak)
  1529. # [08:29] <dael> TabAtkins: So, names. We have a value called alphabetic that reads leter by letter.
  1530. # [08:29] <dael> TabAtkins: It's not a clear name and I'd be fine with naming it something like spelled-out
  1531. # [08:30] <dael> TabAtkins: So we'd also need a name for this like speak-out-as
  1532. # [08:30] <dael> fantasai: speell-out is already defined
  1533. # [08:30] <dael> TabAtkins: great
  1534. # [08:30] <dael> fantasai: that spells the text one letter at a time.
  1535. # [08:30] <dael> TabAtkins: So that would be speak-as, spell-out...
  1536. # [08:31] <dael> fantasai: And I would use read-aloud
  1537. # [08:31] <dael> TabAtkins: that's less clear
  1538. # [08:31] <dael> fantasai: We have an auto value
  1539. # [08:31] <dael> TabAtkins: I like speak-as-words
  1540. # [08:31] <dael> dbaron: The auto does things dependant on the system of the counter style
  1541. # [08:31] <dael> TabAtkins: I like spell-out and words
  1542. # [08:31] <dael> TabAtkins: bullet and numberic are the other existing values.
  1543. # [08:31] <dael> fantasai: Do we have a clearer word than bullet?
  1544. # [08:32] <dael> TabAtkins: If someone can come upw ith one
  1545. # [08:32] <dael> dbaron: Bullet is fine to me.
  1546. # [08:32] <dael> fantasai: Okay.
  1547. # [08:32] * clilley_ speak-as: projectile
  1548. # [08:32] <dael> TabAtkins: So does anyone object to bullet, number, spell-out and words?
  1549. # [08:32] <dael> dauwhe_: Is there digits?
  1550. # [08:32] <dael> TabAtkins: That would be spell-out, I guess
  1551. # [08:33] <dael> fantasai: speak-as applies to general text so spell-out digits would pronounce as a number
  1552. # [08:33] <dael> fantasai: In this case it's a strange thing.
  1553. # [08:33] * astearns speak-as: death-growl;
  1554. # [08:33] <dael> dbaron: So speak-as digits in speach does do normal for everything but a number and number as a number
  1555. # [08:33] <dael> TabAtkins: So I'm happy for these four values and will handle in the sepc alts using the secondary style
  1556. # [08:33] <dael> fantasai: I'm thinking about words. Should it be read-words?
  1557. # [08:34] <dael> TabAtkins: Well, these are nouns and don't need individual parts of speech.
  1558. # [08:34] * hober speak-as: anguished-cry;
  1559. # [08:34] <dael> fantasai: Well, maybe we should pick a part of speech for all of these
  1560. # [08:34] <dael> dauwhe_: Have you gotten accessability input?
  1561. # [08:34] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
  1562. # [08:34] <dael> dauwhe_: Has Daneil ? commented on this?
  1563. # [08:34] <dael> TabAtkins: Keeping to one kind of speech is probably good.
  1564. # [08:35] <dauwhe_> s/Daneil ?/Daniel Weck/
  1565. # [08:35] <dael> dbaron: A property called speak-as seems to hnd a noun
  1566. # [08:35] <dael> fantasai: speak-as and spell-out exist.
  1567. # [08:35] <dael> dbaron: So spell-out is the exception
  1568. # [08:35] <dael> TabAtkins: speak-as bullets, numbers, characters, words
  1569. # [08:35] <dael> fantasai: I think characters would want to be left out.
  1570. # [08:36] <dael> TabAtkins: I want to change this to numbers since numeric was the old way
  1571. # [08:36] * Quits: Matsuki (~Matsuki@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1572. # [08:36] <dael> TabAtkins: We need a better name to just say it's a list item
  1573. # [08:36] <dael> TabAtkins: So let's resolve we should add a speak this as a word value.
  1574. # [08:36] <dael> RESOLVED: add a speak this as a word value.
  1575. # [08:37] <dael> TabAtkins: For now, as a tentitive resolution, change the keywords to bullets, numbers, words and spell-as
  1576. # [08:37] <dael> fantasai: We could use queues?
  1577. # [08:37] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't think that works out of context.
  1578. # [08:37] <dael> zcorpan: But there's only one bullet or list topic
  1579. # [08:37] <dael> TabAtkins: There's only one number
  1580. # [08:37] <dauwhe_> s/queues/cues/
  1581. # [08:37] <dael> zcorpan: So why plural?
  1582. # [08:38] <dael> TabAtkins: Dunno. We can depluralize
  1583. # [08:38] <dael> zcorpan: It applies to one
  1584. # [08:38] <dael> TabAtkins: And all things generted by the counter styl
  1585. # [08:38] <dael> zcorpan: So I guess plural.
  1586. # [08:38] <dael> TabAtkins: So that ones done. I'll edit that in.
  1587. # [08:38] * Joins: Matsuki (~Matsuki@public.cloak)
  1588. # [08:38] <dael> fantasai: You can ask James Craig if he's got a better idea for a name than bullets
  1589. # [08:38] <dael> TabAtkins: The third topic is easier
  1590. # [08:38] * krit What is the topic?
  1591. # [08:39] * krit a counter style
  1592. # [08:39] * astearns krit: counter styles
  1593. # [08:39] * krit astearns thanks
  1594. # [08:39] <dael> TabAtkins: I accidently made a contridiction. I have two descriptions that modify the length of a value. Pad adds and negative adds
  1595. # [08:39] <dael> TabAtkins: Question is which goes first.
  1596. # [08:40] <dael> TabAtkins: So you have pad: 2 "0" and negative: "-". Is it -2 or -02?
  1597. # [08:40] <dael> TabAtkins: It's impl both ways so we can decide. The spec says both, by accident.
  1598. # [08:40] <dael> TabAtkins: So which do people like better?
  1599. # [08:41] <dael> TabAtkins: Because alignment it looks like this [whiteboard]
  1600. # [08:41] <dael> TabAtkins: so do people prefer 1st or 2nd on whiteboard.
  1601. # [08:41] <dael> TabAtkins: okay, second one is the choice.
  1602. # [08:41] <dael> RESOLVED: process pad before negative
  1603. # [08:41] <dbaron> (so that we get -02, -01, 00, 01, 02)
  1604. # [08:41] <dael> TabAtkins: Last one which is second.
  1605. # [08:42] <dael> TabAtkins: How to handle the spacing between a bullet and its text
  1606. # [08:42] <dael> fantasai: Isn't that out of scope?
  1607. # [08:42] <dael> dbaron: There's a problem whichi s why
  1608. # [08:42] <dael> TabAtkins: It's counter styles or lists.
  1609. # [08:42] <dael> TabAtkins: So there's some space. Where is it from? margin on the list item, spaces on the suffix, magic?
  1610. # [08:42] <dael> TabAtkins: Browsers do both.
  1611. # [08:43] <dael> dbaron: Firefox does margin based, but drops for CJK counter styles
  1612. # [08:43] <dael> TabAtkins: For CJK you don't want to have a space.
  1613. # [08:43] <dael> fantasai: And in english if you're copying you want that to stay
  1614. # [08:43] <dael> hober: So the good part about embedded is that it lets you do both
  1615. # [08:43] <dael> TabAtkins: I need to alter the definitions so that it says that but that's okay
  1616. # [08:44] <dael> TabAtkins: So there's a desire to have this happen with majic, but I don't like the appraoch
  1617. # [08:44] <dael> dbaron: The problem is I suspect the margin might be interop
  1618. # [08:44] <dael> TabAtkins: We use space.
  1619. # [08:44] <dael> dauwhe_: And it's an ordinary space?
  1620. # [08:44] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
  1621. # [08:44] <dael> dauwhe_: I'm worried because justification can change the width
  1622. # [08:45] <dael> TabAtkins: Outside markers are outside of that context.
  1623. # [08:45] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm okay with altering to say there's a space in the suffix.
  1624. # [08:45] <dael> fantasai: If you have outside markers than do you want that space there?
  1625. # [08:45] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
  1626. # [08:45] <dael> fantasai: But if you have CJK outside marker...
  1627. # [08:45] <dael> TabAtkins: You take away the space. From what I understand you want the same behaviour for outside and inside
  1628. # [08:46] <dael> fantasai: If that's the case this is the right decision
  1629. # [08:46] <dael> TabAtkins: So if you have an outside list item, do you want the marker on the end or do you want space here, koji or others?
  1630. # [08:46] <dael> fantasai: Okay. In that case we're good.
  1631. # [08:47] <dbaron> http://dbaron.org/css/test/2014/bullet
  1632. # [08:47] <dael> dbaron: Here's the test case I was playing with.
  1633. # [08:47] <dael> dbaron: Though I should maybe try with Chinese characters
  1634. # [08:47] <dael> TabAtkins: Well, we scale, but its true if we use a space or em value. The only way to tell is to expect code or find a font with a significnatly different space.
  1635. # [08:48] <TabAtkins> s/expect/inspect/
  1636. # [08:48] <dael> TabAtkins: Is your approval going to hang on this case?
  1637. # [08:48] <dael> dbaron: I don't think so. I'm okay witht he space in list styles
  1638. # [08:48] <dael> TabAtkins: We were discussing if CJK wants the same inside and outside.
  1639. # [08:49] <dael> TabAtkins: So provistionally we say the spacing between a list item and its content should be done as space characters in the suffix
  1640. # [08:49] <dael> fantasai: Can you send a patch it internationaliztion?
  1641. # [08:49] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes
  1642. # [08:49] <dael> RESOLVED: the spacing between a list item and its content should be done as space characters in the suffix
  1643. # [08:50] <dael> TabAtkins: Final issue is that one of the system values is override which lets you point to another style and say do what that does, but i'm overriding some of the discriptors
  1644. # [08:50] <dael> TabAtkins: So I can say override: decimal negative: "(" ")"
  1645. # [08:51] <dael> TabAtkins: So this is do whatever decimal does but do this for negative
  1646. # [08:51] <fantasai> s/override:/system: override/
  1647. # [08:51] * liam hearing music?
  1648. # [08:51] <dael> TabAtkins: So fantasai doesn't think this is the right word.
  1649. # [08:51] <dael> fantasai: We're only overeriding parts of the system
  1650. # [08:51] <dael> dbaron: So do you want to use inheret?
  1651. # [08:52] <dael> fantasai: It's close
  1652. # [08:52] <dael> TabAtkins: I'd oject to that
  1653. # [08:52] <dael> TabAtkins: It's similar, but we just disallowed inheret everywhere.
  1654. # [08:52] <dael> dbaron: Do you have another idea?
  1655. # [08:52] <dael> fantasai: I think it would be clear for authors.
  1656. # [08:52] <dael> dbaron: Except maybe we don't want to confuse them.
  1657. # [08:52] <zcorpan> s/inheret/inherit/
  1658. # [08:53] <dael> TabAtkins: So what should we actually use.
  1659. # [08:53] <dael> TabAtkins: How about extends?
  1660. # [08:53] <dael> TabAtkins: I like that better than inherit.
  1661. # [08:53] <dael> glaz: extended
  1662. # [08:53] <dael> dbaron: It's a bit different
  1663. # [08:53] <dael> TabAtkins: It being a verb is good
  1664. # [08:53] <dael> dbaron: Having it be part of the system discriptor works well.
  1665. # [08:54] <dael> TabAtkins: Already i have that an override cannot do symbols.
  1666. # [08:54] <dael> fantasai: Unless someone has something better I'm satisfied with extends
  1667. # [08:54] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm okay with this
  1668. # [08:54] <dael> dbaron: One issue with extends is that it makes it sound like it adds
  1669. # [08:54] <dael> TabAtkins: It's the same semantic as JS
  1670. # [08:54] <dael> dbaron: Not everyone is familair with it
  1671. # [08:55] <dael> fantasai: So we have inherit, extends, or override. Any other ideas?
  1672. # [08:55] <dael> ??: Copy
  1673. # [08:55] <dael> fantasai: Okay, copy.
  1674. # [08:55] <zcorpan> s/??/andrey/
  1675. # [08:55] <dael> TabAtkins: Any other suggestions?
  1676. # [08:55] <dael> TabAtkins: So let's poll on answers.
  1677. # [08:55] <dael> fantasai: We'll deal with plurilization after.
  1678. # [08:55] * astearns impersonate!
  1679. # [08:56] <dael> clilley_: abs
  1680. # [08:56] <dael> fantasai: anything but override
  1681. # [08:56] <dael> glaz: anything but 4
  1682. # [08:56] <dael> dbaron: i think anything but 4.
  1683. # [08:57] <fantasai> 1. inherit
  1684. # [08:57] <dael> andrea: 2
  1685. # [08:57] <fantasai> 2. extend
  1686. # [08:57] <fantasai> 3. override
  1687. # [08:57] <dael> astearns: 2
  1688. # [08:57] <fantasai> 4. copy
  1689. # [08:57] <dael> Rossen_: Anything but 3 or 4.
  1690. # [08:57] <dael> plinss: 2
  1691. # [08:57] <dael> TabAtkins: 2
  1692. # [08:57] <dael> TabAtkins: Okay. 2 wins.
  1693. # [08:57] <dael> dauwhe_: 2
  1694. # [08:57] <SimonSapin> what are the choices?
  1695. # [08:57] <SimonSapin> thanks fantasai
  1696. # [08:57] <dael> fantasai: Is it plural?
  1697. # [08:57] <dael> TabAtkins: JS uses extends
  1698. # [08:58] <clilley_> ExistenZ
  1699. # [08:58] * plh z: the new frontier. There are ...
  1700. # [08:58] <dael> TabAtkins: So is extends okay?
  1701. # [08:58] * glazou suggest kstendz
  1702. # [08:58] <dael> fantasai: What are the other values? In the system?
  1703. # [08:59] <dael> dbaron: fixed numeric alphabetic
  1704. # [08:59] <dael> fantasai: so extends is different
  1705. # [08:59] <dael> RESOLVED: Change the name of the override to extends
  1706. # [08:59] <fantasai> s/different/is consistent/
  1707. # [08:59] <dbaron> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-counter-styles-3/#descdef-system
  1708. # [08:59] <dael> TabAtkins: So. Cool. That's all counter styles
  1709. # [08:59] <glazou> more oculus rift, right ?
  1710. # [08:59] <dael> TabAtkins: It's been in LC for a year because we keep getting new issues from zcorpan
  1711. # [08:59] <dael> TabAtkins: I suspect we're near the end.
  1712. # [09:00] <dael> TabAtkins: So do we issue a new LC once I make these changes?
  1713. # [09:00] <dael> dbaron: That's reasonable
  1714. # [09:00] <dael> dbaron: There's a chance of feedback once the impl lands.
  1715. # [09:00] <dael> dbaron: Since that replaces numbering with code based on this spec and thus people will notice if it does something
  1716. # [09:00] <fantasai> s/numbering/existing numbering/
  1717. # [09:01] <dael> TabAtkins: Any obj to a new LC of counter styles? I propose a 6 week period to give maximum time to find issues.
  1718. # [09:01] <dael> fantasai: So say that for the purposes shipping this counts a s CR?
  1719. # [09:01] <dael> TabAtkins: They're shipping anyway
  1720. # [09:01] <dael> dbaron: Was it in CR?
  1721. # [09:01] <dael> TabAtkins: It never made it there.
  1722. # [09:01] <dael> fantasai: We resolved to publish and before we did we got issues.
  1723. # [09:02] <fantasai> s/issues/lots of issues from Xidorn/
  1724. # [09:02] <dael> TabAtkins: So, I'm not hearing obj to going to last call
  1725. # [09:02] <dael> fantasai: You could do a shorter period
  1726. # [09:02] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm happy
  1727. # [09:02] <dael> RESOLVED: Publish a 6 week last call of counter styles
  1728. # [09:03] * dauwhe_ last call should be forty days and forty nights.
  1729. # [09:03] <dael> astearns: Bert asked to call for text
  1730. # [09:03] <dael> fantasai: SteveZ wanted not today
  1731. # [09:03] <dael> dbaron: It's now midnight in CA so 1pm-3pm is likely okay for CA.
  1732. # [09:04] <dael> astearns: What about Bert?
  1733. # [09:04] <dael> dbaron: There may not be a time for overlap
  1734. # [09:04] <fantasai> TabAtkins, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Mar/0594.html is the renaming issue for override
  1735. # [09:04] <fantasai> TabAtkins, you're missing responses to the last couple issues
  1736. # [09:04] <fantasai> TabAtkins, otherwise, looked over the DoC, seems reasonable
  1737. # [09:05] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I just put them in today.
  1738. # [09:05] <TabAtkins> So it hadn't had time to reach the archives yet.
  1739. # [09:05] <dael> [pause to sort out schedule]
  1740. # [09:05] <dael> glaz: We're going to have a talk from AH about CSS3 formatting for books
  1741. # [09:05] <clilley_> http://nadita.com/murakami/presen201405/#%281%29
  1742. # [09:06] <SimonSapin> glazou, is the talk now?
  1743. # [09:06] * clilley_ yes
  1744. # [09:06] <dbaron> SimonSapin, yes
  1745. # [09:06] <dael> [presentation is slides, no minutes]
  1746. # [09:08] * dauwhe_ Murakami is speaking over the noise of a jet taking off
  1747. # [09:09] * Quits: silentobserver (~silentobserver@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1748. # [09:11] <glazou> SimonSapin: yes
  1749. # [09:19] * liam very pleased to hear positive welcome to Antenna House participation
  1750. # [09:20] <TabAtkins> +1
  1751. # [09:20] <liam> [Liam very pleased to hear positive welcome to Antenna House participation]
  1752. # [09:20] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak)
  1753. # [09:21] <dael> glaz: So we have an hour. What can we do?
  1754. # [09:21] <dael> [brief water break]
  1755. # [09:24] * Quits: murakami (~murakami@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1756. # [09:25] * Joins: ar (~ar@public.cloak)
  1757. # [09:26] * Quits: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1758. # [09:29] * Quits: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1759. # [09:36] <dael> gaz: Let's start again
  1760. # [09:36] <dael> glaz: Since it's been a hard day we propose selectors 4, font load and discuss sept f2f and than maybe media queries
  1761. # [09:36] <krit> can we do agenda first?
  1762. # [09:37] <dael> fantasai: I think I need to go over it
  1763. # [09:37] <krit> So that people calling in can plan better?
  1764. # [09:37] <krit> glazou: --^
  1765. # [09:37] <dael> TabAtkins: There's still edits to selectors that need to be made
  1766. # [09:37] <dael> TabAtkins: I propose we move font load to LC
  1767. # [09:37] * Joins: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak)
  1768. # [09:37] <dael> TabAtkins: It's in the ES spec and two browsers are shipping
  1769. # [09:37] * Joins: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak)
  1770. # [09:37] <dael> plinss: Aren't there polyfills?
  1771. # [09:38] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
  1772. # [09:38] * Joins: Jet (~Jet@public.cloak)
  1773. # [09:38] <dael> dbaron: Have you gotten rid of the web idl dependency?
  1774. # [09:38] <dael> TabAtkins: I haven't removed it yet but I plan to
  1775. # [09:38] <dbaron> s/web idl dependency/web idl SetClass dependency/
  1776. # [09:38] * krit glazou am still muted so I couldn't speak up :P
  1777. # [09:38] <SimonSapin> Fonts load events are in the ES spec‽
  1778. # [09:38] <dael> glenn: Shouldn't that be before LC
  1779. # [09:38] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes, but we can do that in the future
  1780. # [09:38] <glazou> krit is umuted
  1781. # [09:38] <dael> dbaron: If you're planning...I guess that's okay, but ut a note in the spec?
  1782. # [09:39] <dael> TabAtkins: I can do that
  1783. # [09:39] <dbaron> s/ut a note in the spec/put a note in the spec that you're planning to change it/
  1784. # [09:39] <dael> krit: I wanted to ask if we can plan the agenda so people calling in can plan, but that can be after this discussion
  1785. # [09:39] <SimonSapin> +1, agenda please
  1786. # [09:39] * Joins: murakami (~murakami@public.cloak)
  1787. # [09:40] <dael> TabAtkins: So that's it. I'll put in a set and deal with it that way for now.
  1788. # [09:40] <dael> TabAtkins: Witht he change or the note that it'll change during LC, is that acceptable?
  1789. # [09:40] <dael> dbaron: Yes.
  1790. # [09:40] <dael> glaz: So any obj to publishing?
  1791. # [09:40] <dael> RESOLVED: Publish LC for font loading
  1792. # [09:40] <dael> glaz: how long?
  1793. # [09:40] <dael> TabAtkins: Standard is fine
  1794. # [09:40] <dael> glaz: So 6 weeks?
  1795. # [09:40] <dael> glaz: clilley_ will do the publication
  1796. # [09:41] <dael> TabAtkins: Great.
  1797. # [09:41] <dael> clilley_: Is it ready now?
  1798. # [09:41] <dael> TabAtkins: Let me add that note. It will be ready in five minutes
  1799. # [09:41] <dael> clilley_: That's close enough to now.
  1800. # [09:41] <dael> clilley_: It's been pub before, right?
  1801. # [09:41] <dael> TabAtkins: Yeah. It's been out.
  1802. # [09:42] <dael> glaz: So back to the agenda since SimonSapin and krit want it
  1803. # [09:42] <dael> glaz: So CSS3 text is Wed after lunch for SteveZ can call
  1804. # [09:42] <dael> glaz: Line layout is tomorrow afternoon.
  1805. # [09:42] <dael> krit: can SteveZ call in in the afternoon?
  1806. # [09:42] <dael> glaz: I hope so
  1807. # [09:42] <dael> dbaron: He can do early afternoon, not late.
  1808. # [09:43] <dael> plinss: remain: Webkit line plan, CSS masking
  1809. # [09:43] <dael> TabAtkins: I can do line plan
  1810. # [09:43] <astearns> s/plan/clamp/
  1811. # [09:43] <dael> glaz: How much time?
  1812. # [09:43] <dael> TabAtkins: Something between 15 and 30 minutes
  1813. # [09:43] <dael> plinss: So CSS Masking
  1814. # [09:44] <dael> glaz: krit you wanted to attend?
  1815. # [09:44] <dael> glaz: When are you ready to call in?
  1816. # [09:44] <dael> krit: Any time except those two hours I e-mailed about.
  1817. # [09:44] <dael> krit: So between 2 and 5pm
  1818. # [09:44] <dael> dbaron: I thought 2 to 4?
  1819. # [09:44] <dael> krit: Yes.
  1820. # [09:44] <dael> glaz: That will be complicated. We have 2 afternoons left.
  1821. # [09:44] <dael> krit: Morning is fine.
  1822. # [09:45] <dael> glaz: So WEdnesday morning?
  1823. # [09:45] <dael> krit: yes
  1824. # [09:45] <dael> krit: geometry interface on wednesday morning too?
  1825. # [09:45] <dael> glaz: Sure.
  1826. # [09:45] <dael> glaz: We have box model/render tree and bert would like to call. Maybe that's tomorrow?
  1827. # [09:45] * SimonSapin is interested in Render Tree too. Korean afternoon preferred
  1828. # [09:46] <dael> glaz: When do we do GCPM footnotes
  1829. # [09:46] <dael> plinss: tomorrow morning
  1830. # [09:46] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  1831. # [09:46] <dael> glaz: test results.
  1832. # [09:46] <dael> plinss: We can do that tomorrow
  1833. # [09:46] <dael> glaz: Who did CSS OM?
  1834. # [09:46] <dael> clilley_: Me.
  1835. # [09:47] <dael> glaz: Tomorrow okay?
  1836. # [09:47] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins, is the surrogate thing worth bringing up?
  1837. # [09:47] <dael> clilley_: zcorpan is CSS OM something you're ready to talk about?
  1838. # [09:47] <dael> zcorpan: Yeah.
  1839. # [09:47] <dael> glaz: Tomorrow morning?
  1840. # [09:47] <dael> zcorpan: Okay.
  1841. # [09:47] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Probably, yeah.
  1842. # [09:47] <dael> plinss: We have box alignment? I think SteveZ wanted to call in for that.
  1843. # [09:48] <dael> TabAtkins: I hve a syntax issue we can discuss this afternoon. It's unpaired surrigates.
  1844. # [09:48] <dael> glaz: ten minutes
  1845. # [09:48] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins, maybe in CSSOM rather than Syntax
  1846. # [09:48] <zcorpan> s/surrigates/surrogates/
  1847. # [09:48] <dael> glaz: So SteveZ wants to do box alignment so right after line layout?
  1848. # [09:48] <TabAtkins> SimonSapin: Really it's a querySelector() issue.
  1849. # [09:48] <TabAtkins> So, DOM.
  1850. # [09:48] <TabAtkins> But we should be deciding on it.
  1851. # [09:48] <SimonSapin> well, maybe Syntax will need clarification too, but we can only get surrogate from JS
  1852. # [09:49] <clilley_> TabAtkins "This proposal has progressed to the Draft ECMAScript 6 Specification, which is available for review on the official ECMAScript wiki. When referencing the promises specification, you should reference the draft ECMAScript 6 spec, and not this repository."
  1853. # [09:49] <dael> glaz: for CSS3 text we have 2 requests. SteveZ wants right after lunc and Bert wants to do late afternoon
  1854. # [09:49] <dael> plinss: So do mid-afternoon?
  1855. # [09:49] * Quits: yamamoto (~yamamoto@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1856. # [09:49] <dael> dbaron: So the comprimise is to do that window krit can't make
  1857. # [09:49] <dael> plinss: Still scoping, flexbox, and selectors 4
  1858. # [09:49] <dael> glaz: Flexbox is LC to CR
  1859. # [09:50] <dael> Rossen_: Any time.
  1860. # [09:50] <dael> glaz: We have a slot in the morning?
  1861. # [09:50] <dael> plinss: Yes.
  1862. # [09:50] <dael> glaz: Scoping in the morning?
  1863. # [09:50] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
  1864. # [09:50] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins, querySelector() yes, but CSSOM too I think. E.g. CSSStyleSheet.insertRule
  1865. # [09:50] <dael> plinss: Okay. We'll put it in the morning and shuffle if we need to.
  1866. # [09:50] * liam suggests posting updated agenda to mailing list (or pointer to it and the fact it changed) separately from minutes
  1867. # [09:50] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: and CSS.escape()
  1868. # [09:51] <SimonSapin> right
  1869. # [09:51] <dael> plinss: So next F2F?
  1870. # [09:51] <dael> glaz: Okay.
  1871. # [09:51] <dael> glaz: Did we have something...?
  1872. # [09:51] * clilley_ liam http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/seoul-2014#agenda updated live
  1873. # [09:51] <dael> dbaron: We had tentitive dates of 8 sept to 10
  1874. # [09:52] <dael> glaz: We had proposals for location, Paris, Brighton, and Sophia. I think it will be hard to find a room in Brighton
  1875. # [09:52] * liam knows (thanks) is why i said pointer :)
  1876. # [09:53] <dael> glaz: So 8 to 10 sept is a monday to wednesday
  1877. # [09:53] <dael> glaz: So we stick to Sophia?
  1878. # [09:53] <dael> glaz: Any objections?
  1879. # [09:53] <dael> hober: There isn't a concrete option, is there? It's somewhere that we know works, versus something more amorphous?
  1880. # [09:53] <dael> glaz: The more concrete second option is Paris
  1881. # [09:53] <dael> clilley_: Who would host?
  1882. # [09:54] <dael> glaz: I'm not sure.
  1883. # [09:54] <dael> plinss: As a side note, CSS conf is Berlin on 12 Sept
  1884. # [09:54] <dael> TabAtkins: Is anyone here speaking there?
  1885. # [09:54] * Quits: kyungtae (~androirc@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1886. # [09:54] <dael> plinss: There's an open call for speakers.
  1887. # [09:54] * Joins: kyungtae (~androirc@public.cloak)
  1888. # [09:54] <dael> clilley_: So you can get from any of those locations to Berlin easily
  1889. # [09:55] <SimonSapin> also, cssconf.eu != cssconf.com
  1890. # [09:55] <dael> plinss: And JS conf is the two days right after
  1891. # [09:55] * Quits: Matsuki (~Matsuki@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1892. # [09:55] <dael> glaz: Call for speakers is open until 1 July
  1893. # [09:56] <dael> glenn: Can you get zurick, TabAtkins?
  1894. # [09:56] <dael> TabAtkins: I think Zurich would be big enough. I don't see a problem, but would have to check dates.
  1895. # [09:56] <TabAtkins> s/think/know/
  1896. # [09:57] <dael> glaz: So do we stick to Sophia until zurick is more concrete?
  1897. # [09:57] <dael> TabAtkins: Yep. So ping tantek.
  1898. # [09:57] * Joins: Matsuki (~Matsuki@public.cloak)
  1899. # [09:57] <dael> plinss: We're firm on dates?
  1900. # [09:57] <dael> glaz: Yes.
  1901. # [09:57] <dael> krit: Is there a problem with Sophia?
  1902. # [09:57] <dael> TabAtkins: It's a little harder to get to.
  1903. # [09:57] <dael> TabAtkins: So we're doing 8 to 10 Sept, somewhere in Europe
  1904. # [09:57] <dael> glaz: Next is TPAC in Santa Clara
  1905. # [09:58] <dael> TabAtkins: We've been non-US a lot, so we can maybe do US.
  1906. # [09:58] <dael> astearns: Except the last meeting.
  1907. # [09:58] <dael> krit: I wouldn't mind doing Seattle more.
  1908. # [09:59] <dael> dbaron: Do we know where 2015 TPAC is?
  1909. # [09:59] <dael> glaz: Paris
  1910. # [09:59] <dael> plinss: not Leon?
  1911. # [09:59] <dael> glaz: I don't think so.
  1912. # [09:59] <dael> dbaron: You sure that's not AC?
  1913. # [09:59] <plinss> s/Leon/Lyon/
  1914. # [09:59] <dael> glaz: Oh, it was.
  1915. # [09:59] * dauwhe_ eventually we should meet in the Eastern US
  1916. # [09:59] <dael> plh: 2015 is under discussion. There's the idea of doing Japan and it's going to become a funding question.
  1917. # [10:00] <dael> plh: If we can find funds we'll go to Japan.
  1918. # [10:00] <dael> glaz: So.
  1919. # [10:00] <dael> dbaron: It's likely not urgent.
  1920. # [10:00] <dael> glaz: It's good to say something like Feb in US.
  1921. # [10:00] <dael> TabAtkins: I want to do summer in US. specifically Seattle
  1922. # [10:01] <dael> glenn: I could maybe do Bolder for skiiers
  1923. # [10:01] <dauwhe_> s/Bolder/Boulder/
  1924. # [10:01] * Joins: yamamoto (~yamamoto@public.cloak)
  1925. # [10:01] <dael> glaz: So let's give some time to collect possibilities.
  1926. # [10:01] <dauwhe_> s/skiiers/skiers/
  1927. # [10:01] <dael> glaz: So let's wait a bit
  1928. # [10:01] <liam> hmm, xml prague is in february
  1929. # [10:01] <dael> glaz: TPAC is in early november?
  1930. # [10:01] <dael> plh: No, it overlaps halloween
  1931. # [10:02] <dael> glaz: So begining of Feburary will be good.
  1932. # [10:02] <myakura> “ TPAC 2014 (a W3C event) takes place 27 Oct to 31 Oct 2014 in Santa Clara, California.” http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2014
  1933. # [10:02] <dael> glaz: Could Bloomburg host in NYC?
  1934. # [10:02] <dael> andrea: I can see. We're tight on space, usually, though.
  1935. # [10:03] <dael> dauwhe_: I could eventually look at NYC. We're moving in Oct and may have better spaces.
  1936. # [10:03] <dael> plh: NYC in Feb? Might as well do Boston.
  1937. # [10:03] <liam> [we had a F2F in Ottawa in Jan/Feb once, hosted by Adobe, and had -50° and an ice storm]
  1938. # [10:04] <dael> Rossen_: How about Austrailia in Feb?
  1939. # [10:04] <dael> clilley_: I've been to one end of Jan/Feb.
  1940. # [10:04] <dael> TabAtkins: It's like a texas august.
  1941. # [10:04] <dael> shans_: I don't think we could get the same space.
  1942. # [10:04] <dael> Rossen_: We could get SVG in Feb.
  1943. # [10:05] <dael> glaz: We can investigate that too.
  1944. # [10:05] <dael> shans_: Sure.
  1945. # [10:05] <dael> plinss: Tentitive dates?
  1946. # [10:05] <dael> glaz: Begining Feb.
  1947. # [10:05] <dael> clilley_: If we're investigating Australia, we should make sure we're co-located with SVG
  1948. # [10:05] * Quits: yamamoto (~yamamoto@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  1949. # [10:05] <dael> glaz: Okay. Is that all for F2F?
  1950. # [10:05] * Joins: yamamoto (~yamamoto@public.cloak)
  1951. # [10:06] <dael> plinss: So go to MQ?
  1952. # [10:06] <dael> TabAtkins: Can we do syntax quick?
  1953. # [10:06] <dael> TabAtkins: So the CSS parse handles unpaired surrigates fine, it turns them into replacement characters
  1954. # [10:07] <dael> TabAtkins: Some JS calls aren't using CSS parser. CSS doesn't explicitly handle encoding
  1955. # [10:07] <SimonSapin> Not the parser, the character encodings just never emit surrogates
  1956. # [10:07] <dael> TabAtkins: So if you cann query selector unpaired get passed in. So do we want to force processing of those?
  1957. # [10:07] <dael> clilley_: Yes.
  1958. # [10:07] <SimonSapin> Note that surrogates are forbidden in UTF-8
  1959. # [10:07] <dael> TabAtkins: The risk is it's totally possible to set a class name with an unpaired from JS
  1960. # [10:07] <dael> TabAtkins: There's a chance that people may be depending on that.
  1961. # [10:08] <dael> clilley_: Then they should reap what the soe
  1962. # [10:08] <dael> dbaron: I'm more worried about extra processing passes and/or duplicating things that exist. What about web idl?
  1963. # [10:08] <clilley_> s/the soe/they sow
  1964. # [10:08] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't think have anything to say
  1965. # [10:08] <dael> dbaron: I'd like to hear what boris and heycam have to say
  1966. # [10:08] <SimonSapin> dbaron, I think WebIDL has a [EnsureUTF16] thing, or something
  1967. # [10:08] <dael> TabAtkins: Boris brought up the maybe people are querying issue
  1968. # [10:09] <dael> zcorpan: It's not clear to me what the value in banning is.
  1969. # [10:09] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm in theory okay with it. CSS just handles it.
  1970. # [10:09] <dael> zcorpan: Seems it's an extra performance cost.
  1971. # [10:09] <dael> TabAtkins: I find that acceptable.
  1972. # [10:09] <dael> TabAtkins: There's nothing spec wise that would make that problematic.
  1973. # [10:09] <dael> TabAtkins: It's just a matter of do we keep CSS unicode clean.
  1974. # [10:10] <dael> TabAtkins: If you're fine with normally clean and JS can screw things up that's fine.
  1975. # [10:10] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm fine with no change, especially b/c I'd want to handle this on the DOM side.
  1976. # [10:10] <dael> dbaron: I feel funny about a solution that's this specific.
  1977. # [10:10] <dael> dbaron: I'd like to know what the general pattern is
  1978. # [10:11] <dael> TabAtkins: I likely is that we can't change much about the DOM and therefore will mostly let you do unpaired surrigates.
  1979. # [10:11] <dael> dbaron: CSS parsing is common sense
  1980. # [10:11] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes. So. I don't know.
  1981. # [10:11] <dbaron> s/common sense/performance sensitive/
  1982. # [10:11] <dael> TabAtkins: Sounds like no change is pref. Shoudl we go with that?
  1983. # [10:11] <dael> zcorpan: I have a note in CSSOM to clarify what characters are since it doesn't say if it includes surrigates.
  1984. # [10:11] <Ms2ger> What does "JS can screw things up" mean?
  1985. # [10:12] <dael> dbaron: [mentions SimonSapin comment]
  1986. # [10:12] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Insert unpaired surrogates
  1987. # [10:12] <dael> zcorpan: But that's only for things that go over the network. Not things like the DOM
  1988. # [10:12] <dael> zcorpan: I think.
  1989. # [10:13] <dael> TabAtkins: Okay. Using UTF16 does the replacement and it doesn't give guidence in spec about when to usei t
  1990. # [10:13] * hober "The Lone Surrogates" was the name of TabAtkins' high school band
  1991. # [10:13] <plh> s/guidence/guidance/
  1992. # [10:13] * glazou waves at Ms2ger
  1993. # [10:13] * Ms2ger waves back
  1994. # [10:13] <dael> TabAtkins: So if we do change, WebIDL has a mechanism. There wouldn't be weird prose.
  1995. # [10:13] * Ms2ger won't walk in this time :)
  1996. # [10:13] <dael> TabAtkins: But I'm going resolve no change.
  1997. # [10:13] <dael> glaz: That probably doesn't need a resolution.
  1998. # [10:14] <dael> glaz: What else.
  1999. # [10:14] <dael> TabAtkins: There's MQ listener
  2000. # [10:14] <dael> glaz: What did we decide for font load?
  2001. # [10:14] <dael> TabAtkins: Publish LC.
  2002. # [10:14] <SimonSapin> wait, was was the result of the discussion on surrogates?
  2003. # [10:14] * dauwhe_ hober: anything used with "Lone" should be depluralized.
  2004. # [10:15] <astearns> SimonSapin: no change
  2005. # [10:15] <dael> glaz: So we do MQ now and than finsih
  2006. # [10:15] <SimonSapin> thanks astearns
  2007. # [10:15] <dael> TabAtkins: So from conf call a few weeks ago we had a question about how to handle some minor details in the semantics in events for this custom mechanism.
  2008. # [10:15] <dael> TabAtkins: That was concerning timing and calls to the listener.
  2009. # [10:16] <dael> TabAtkins: Blink is in favor of this because we have a pile of custom code and it gets missed in bug fixes.
  2010. # [10:16] <dael> TabAtkins: There were concerns about the semantics changes.
  2011. # [10:16] <dael> dbaron: I don't remember them.
  2012. # [10:16] <dael> hober: If there's aliasing that can be done in a way so that the existing MQ interface continues to work, then that's great.
  2013. # [10:16] * Joins: yamamoto_ (~yamamoto@public.cloak)
  2014. # [10:16] <dael> hober: This is shipping in multiple impl so I don't want to mess it up
  2015. # [10:17] <dael> TabAtkins: It's odd cases taht would change. Nothing normal would change.
  2016. # [10:17] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm looking up dbaron comments.
  2017. # [10:17] <SimonSapin> astearns, no change because perf?
  2018. # [10:17] <dael> zcorpan: There would be a simple change because the object would inherit and support a listener
  2019. # [10:17] <dael> hober: If you're using this interface and this wouldn't change that, it's fine.
  2020. # [10:17] <dael> TabAtkins: Okay. You had some concerns but said you were fine with it
  2021. # [10:18] <dael> dbaron: There was a thread about this in 2012 and 2014.
  2022. # [10:18] <dbaron> http://www.w3.org/mid/20120615033942.GA27405@crum.dbaron.org http://www.w3.org/mid/20140416171058.GA31844@crum.dbaron.org
  2023. # [10:18] <dbaron> but I don't see any objections I raised
  2024. # [10:18] <dael> TabAtkins: Elliott, one of our impl, is in favor.
  2025. # [10:18] <zcorpan> s/inherit and support a listener/inherit from EventListener and support addEventListener and onchange/
  2026. # [10:18] <dael> TabAtkins: We all fire in different orders, so if anyone is depending on order, they're already breaking.
  2027. # [10:19] <dael> dbaron: The plan is to make the MQ list the event target.
  2028. # [10:19] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
  2029. # [10:19] <zcorpan> s/EventListener/EventTarget/
  2030. # [10:19] <dael> TabAtkins: Non bubbling events fired at the MQ list
  2031. # [10:19] <dael> TabAtkins: So obj to making the switch and what should we call the event?
  2032. # [10:19] <dael> TabAtkins: Someone suggested change which is fine
  2033. # [10:20] <dael> glaz: All the other events have a discripive name, but change isn't.
  2034. # [10:20] <dael> hober: match-change or something
  2035. # [10:20] <dael> dbaron: Something to say it's not true or false?
  2036. # [10:20] <SimonSapin> call it "box node"
  2037. # [10:20] <dael> zcorpan: I don't see why it needs to be discriptive
  2038. # [10:20] <dael> dbaron: The pattern is it's fired on the object and you look at that to determine true/false
  2039. # [10:21] <dael> TabAtkins: An event is fired in both mached and unmatched cases.
  2040. # [10:21] <dael> TabAtkins: uuuuhhh...anything other than match-change
  2041. # [10:21] * clilley_ match-me-maybe
  2042. # [10:21] * Quits: yamamoto (~yamamoto@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  2043. # [10:21] <dael> glaz: go for change.
  2044. # [10:21] <dael> TabAtkins: Cool. go for change
  2045. # [10:22] <dael> hober: I want to make sure resolution is clear we're adding API
  2046. # [10:22] <clilley_> surface: will-increase
  2047. # [10:22] <dael> TabAtkins: Make MQ lists and event target for the change event and alias the existing listener to add event listener and remove event listener
  2048. # [10:22] <dael> TabAtkins: Any obj to that?
  2049. # [10:22] <zcorpan> s/add event listener/addEventListener/
  2050. # [10:22] <zcorpan> s/remove event listener/removeEventListener/
  2051. # [10:23] <dael> hober: I don't object, I'm concerned about compat impace
  2052. # [10:23] <dael> s/impace/impact
  2053. # [10:23] <dael> RESOLVED:Make MQ lists and event target for the change event and alias the existing listener to addeventlistener and removeeventlistener
  2054. # [10:23] * Parts: yamamoto_ (~yamamoto@public.cloak)
  2055. # [10:23] <dael> glaz: Next item.
  2056. # [10:23] <dael> TabAtkins: Isn't next stop?
  2057. # [10:23] <dael> glaz: Yes.
  2058. # [10:23] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) ("")
  2059. # [10:23] * liam thank you for audio
  2060. # [10:24] <dael> [End of Day - Return tomorrow 9am Seoul time]
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  2082. # [11:21] * Zakim dbaron, you asked to be reminded at this time to go home
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  2096. # [13:54] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: did you have a proposal for something like http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-values/ ?
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  2102. # [14:07] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Yeah, presented it last f2f. Basically http://www.xanthir.com/b4UD0
  2103. # [14:07] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: It's blocked on JS Value Objects becoming a thing.
  2104. # [14:09] <zcorpan> oh right, js value objects
  2105. # [14:09] <zcorpan> i remember that now (though i wasn't at the prev f2f9
  2106. # [14:09] <zcorpan> s/9/)/
  2107. # [14:10] <krit> TabAtkins: ping
  2108. # [14:10] <TabAtkins> pong
  2109. # [14:11] <krit> TabAtkins: how is the style resolved for an element that is not appended in the document somewhere. Specifically em, rem or %?
  2110. # [14:11] <krit> TabAtkins: I mean how to get used value
  2111. # [14:11] <TabAtkins> % are done with a zero viewport size.
  2112. # [14:11] <TabAtkins> I don't think em/rem is well-defined.
  2113. # [14:12] <krit> TabAtkins: ok, thanks
  2114. # [14:12] <krit> TabAtkins: so we have no fallback from em/rem or you are just not sure currently?
  2115. # [14:12] <TabAtkins> Not sure. I suspect it's the initial value.
  2116. # [14:12] <krit> initial value of the property using it?
  2117. # [14:13] <TabAtkins> Nah, initial value of the user's font-size.
  2118. # [14:13] <TabAtkins> What "font-size: 1em;" gets on the root element.
  2119. # [14:14] <krit> TabAtkins: reason I am asking is http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/geometry/#issue-67a0c3ae
  2120. # [14:14] <krit> TabAtkins: a matrix is created on a Window
  2121. # [14:14] <krit> well, it is in global scope
  2122. # [14:14] <krit> If I pass a transform list as DOMString
  2123. # [14:15] <TabAtkins> Ah, then yeah, ideal behavior is to base it on a 0x0 viewport with initial values for everything.
  2124. # [14:15] <krit> TabAtkins: 1em would still require font metrics, I assume it would be the default font as well?
  2125. # [14:15] <dbaron> TabAtkins, btw, I now have animations down to 1 bikeshed error... though I'm not sure how sylvaing ran the spec -- perhaps he was using an old bikeshed version
  2126. # [14:16] <TabAtkins> krit: Yeah.
  2127. # [14:16] <TabAtkins> dbaron: What's the error?
  2128. # [14:16] <SimonSapin> perhaps bikeshed should git-pull itself before doing anything
  2129. # [14:16] <TabAtkins> Also: if you're in a hurry, you can always run `bikeshed -f spec` to force generation.
  2130. # [14:16] <dbaron> TabAtkins, FATAL ERROR: Couldn't find target document section #timing-functions:
  2131. # [14:16] <dbaron> <a href="#timing-functions" data-section=""></a>
  2132. # [14:16] <dbaron> TabAtkins, is that data-section="" a feature of bikeshed?
  2133. # [14:16] <dbaron> that's supposed to do something?
  2134. # [14:17] <krit> TabAtkins: sounds reasonable. What do you think about passing a nullable Element that, if not null, gives the relevant data (including it's viewport)
  2135. # [14:17] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Yeah, it's written as just `section` in your source code. It automatically fills the <a> with the heading's title.
  2136. # [14:17] <TabAtkins> krit: Sounds good on first blush. Send in a proposal to www-style?
  2137. # [14:17] <TabAtkins> dbaron: So I guess it can't find a heading with id=timing-functions.
  2138. # [14:17] <krit> TabAtkins: yes, will do. Will keep the issue for FPWD
  2139. # [14:18] <dbaron> TabAtkins, I think it's actually in the transitions spec
  2140. # [14:18] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Ah, yeah, don't have cross-spec section linking yet.
  2141. # [14:18] <TabAtkins> So that's just a markup error.
  2142. # [14:18] <TabAtkins> Just replace it with an ordinary <a> for now.
  2143. # [14:19] <dbaron> TabAtkins, it was in a revision you committed
  2144. # [14:19] <TabAtkins> That's confusing.
  2145. # [14:20] <dbaron> TabAtkins, https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/rev/3e45563964a5
  2146. # [14:21] <dbaron> TabAtkins, any idea what you meant?
  2147. # [14:22] <TabAtkins> ...huh. Nope.
  2148. # [14:22] <dbaron> I guess maybe the section on keyframes?
  2149. # [14:22] <TabAtkins> Maybe?
  2150. # [14:22] <dbaron> TabAtkins, ... which has the id timing-functions
  2151. # [14:22] <dbaron> TabAtkins, which makes me think this is supposed to work
  2152. # [14:23] <TabAtkins> Hahaha, the section has id=timing-funtions
  2153. # [14:24] <dbaron> TabAtkins, oh
  2154. # [14:24] <dbaron> TabAtkins, I guess I should add a compatibility anchor then...
  2155. # [14:24] <TabAtkins> I wonder how long that's been around?
  2156. # [14:24] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  2157. # [14:24] * Parts: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak) (Zakim)
  2158. # [14:25] <dbaron> hmm, it's not in the last TR draft
  2159. # [14:25] <dbaron> It was introduced in the bikeshed conversion patch
  2160. # [14:26] <dbaron> I'll just fix it
  2161. # [14:27] <dbaron> TabAtkins, any idea why my copy of bikeshed does indentation differently from sylvain's?
  2162. # [14:27] <dbaron> also mine seems to produce more </p>s
  2163. # [14:30] * dbaron tries upgrading lxml and html5lib
  2164. # [14:30] <TabAtkins> dbaron: More recent stuff.
  2165. # [14:30] <TabAtkins> I swapped out the way I handle automatic <p>s.
  2166. # [14:30] * dbaron thinks the old indentation is better
  2167. # [14:31] <TabAtkins> Don't pay attention to the generated source?
  2168. # [14:36] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2169. # [14:37] * dbaron forgot to give this power adapter to fantasai
  2170. # [14:39] <TabAtkins> She doesn't need it quite yet.
  2171. # [14:39] <TabAtkins> She says bring it tomorrow.
  2172. # [14:40] <dbaron> I could also bring it now, and thus not forget
  2173. # [14:40] <TabAtkins> Okay. Room 912, if you want.
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  2176. # [15:04] <krit> What is the topic in the "CSS Object Model" session? Bug fixes? New WD?
  2177. # [15:05] <zcorpan> what do you want it to be?
  2178. # [15:05] <krit> zcorpan: what I want CSS OM to be?
  2179. # [15:05] <zcorpan> no the topic
  2180. # [15:05] <krit> zcorpan: a replacement for SVG DOM :P
  2181. # [15:05] <Ms2ger> The topic replaces the SVG DOM? Good riddance
  2182. # [15:05] <zcorpan> LGTM
  2183. # [15:06] <krit> Ms2ger: ;)
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  2211. # [18:04] * sgalineau always makes sure to bring a power adapter for fantasai....
  2212. # [18:05] <Ms2ger> I'm quite sure fantasai lives off food like the rest of us
  2213. # [18:05] * sgalineau would pay to see Ms2ger feed fantasai's laptop with food
  2214. # [18:06] * sgalineau might as well use the lack of f2f to keep catching up on css-animations
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  2237. # Session Close: Tue May 20 00:00:00 2014

The end :)