/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-05-20 / end

Options:

# Session Start: Tue May 20 00:00:01 2014
# Session Ident: #css
# [00:02] * cabanier__ is now known as cabanier
# [00:05] * Joins: rhauck1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [00:08] * Quits: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:18] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
# [00:37] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
# [00:53] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [00:54] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
# [00:54] * Quits: rhauck1 (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [00:56] * Joins: Matsuki (~Matsuki@public.cloak)
# [00:56] * Joins: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [01:20] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak)
# [01:32] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
# [01:33] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
# [01:37] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [01:37] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak)
# [01:47] * Joins: dwim (~uid10661@public.cloak)
# [01:48] * Joins: shans_ (~shans@public.cloak)
# [01:49] * Joins: plh (~plh@public.cloak)
# [01:49] * Quits: Matsuki (~Matsuki@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [01:50] * Joins: Matsuki (~Matsuki@public.cloak)
# [01:53] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak)
# [01:54] * Joins: dael (~dael@public.cloak)
# [01:54] <dael> ScribeNick: dael
# [01:56] * Quits: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [01:57] * Quits: Matsuki (~Matsuki@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [02:02] * Joins: SteveZ (~SteveZ@public.cloak)
# [02:04] * Joins: abinader (~sid21713@public.cloak)
# [02:04] * Joins: Matsuki (~Matsuki@public.cloak)
# [02:05] <SteveZ> Is there a webinar for today?
# [02:11] * liam not sure the dignitaries are yet assembled
# [02:11] <liam> I just finished reading your notes on initial caps (Hebrew is a language where a ::first-word selector would be used, btw)
# [02:12] * Joins: Kyounga (~Kyounga@public.cloak)
# [02:12] * Quits: Matsuki (~Matsuki@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [02:13] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [02:13] <SteveZ> did my notes on Initial caps make sense?
# [02:13] * Joins: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak)
# [02:14] <zcorpan> i overslept. will be a bit late
# [02:14] <liam> yes, pretty much - your example is nice. I found one yesterday I want to scan too, with the initial letter entirely in the margin
# [02:14] * Joins: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak)
# [02:14] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [02:14] * Quits: stryx` (~stryx@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [02:14] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [02:14] * Joins: stryx`_ (~stryx@public.cloak)
# [02:15] * sgalineau dignitaries?
# [02:16] * sgalineau can't do dignity
# [02:16] * Quits: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [02:16] <SteveZ> that is "deign to tary"
# [02:18] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
# [02:18] <sgalineau> ah, ok
# [02:18] * Joins: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak)
# [02:19] * Quits: Kyounga (~Kyounga@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [02:19] <sgalineau> we could start a css-dignity module.
# [02:19] <glazou> Webinar for tuesday : https://attendee.gotowebinar.com/register/7197759715728627714
# [02:19] <sgalineau> avoid-dignity property. initial value: always
# [02:19] * Joins: Kyounga (~Kyounga@public.cloak)
# [02:20] * plinss changes topic to 'http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/seoul-2014#agenda - https://attendee.gotowebinar.com/register/7197759715728627714'
# [02:20] <dael> plinss: Let's get started
# [02:20] <dael> plinss: Today is footnotes in GCPM
# [02:21] <dael> dauwhe: Not everyone loves footnotes, but they're a big part of publishing.
# [02:21] <dael> ...: Here's a basic idea (slide)
# [02:21] <dael> ...: We move the footnotes into a footnote area and place that att he bottom of the page.
# [02:21] <dael> ...: Sometimes they're not terribly simple.
# [02:21] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [02:21] <dael> ...: My goal isn't to solve these problems.
# [02:22] <dael> ...: So what happens in GCPM today which is impl by AH and Prince is that we have a special value of float property that's applied to footnote content.
# [02:22] <SteveZ> can someone move the mic closer to Dave he is incomprehesible
# [02:22] <dael> ...: WE find the area on the page with an @ rule.
# [02:22] * Joins: jh_hong (~jh_hong@public.cloak)
# [02:22] <dael> ...: This model seems to have some difficulties (list on slide)
# [02:23] * liam url for slides?
# [02:23] <dael> ...: We have an HTML problem where we need to content placed where it should live, but there's a content problem for location.
# [02:23] <dael> ...: Everything is in terms of magic.
# [02:23] <glazou> liam, SteveZ you're now unmuted
# [02:23] <dael> ...: Lots of people have been saying why not use regions
# [02:23] <glazou> let me know if you want to be muted back
# [02:23] <dael> ...: My goal is to see if this is a viable approach for footnotes.
# [02:23] <dael> ...: I've been trying out some things.
# [02:24] * liam thinks, can now mute/unmute locally
# [02:24] <dael> ...: For moving the element it's logical to flow it into something. It's easy to make the reference with the before pseudo
# [02:24] * liam s/thinks/thanks/
# [02:24] <dael> ...: The footnote area itself is more interesting since GCPM depends heavily on paged media
# [02:24] <dael> ...: Trying to find a way to use @page and define the regins we need is difficult.
# [02:24] <dael> ...: So there's all sorts of proposals around to do this
# [02:25] <dael> ...: This seemed to be one that made sense to me (using Regions)
# [02:25] <dael> glaz: This is what I wanted to do in paged media 4
# [02:25] <dael> glaz: A footnotes area to me is the same as a regular area
# [02:25] <dael> glaz: It does nothing special until you say there's a margin box. It's a way of designing a page template that I feel is right
# [02:26] <dael> dauwhe: Footnotes are interesting because if there isn't one on the page, you can't create the footnote area. Required flow seems to be exactly what I want
# [02:26] <dael> ...: Of course we have issues with impl use the flow prop to place the footnote region. Mot of bottom by default.
# [02:26] * Quits: Kyounga (~Kyounga@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [02:26] * Joins: murakami (~murakami@public.cloak)
# [02:26] <astearns> @slot, required-flow etc. in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-page-template/
# [02:26] * Joins: andrey (~andrey@public.cloak)
# [02:27] <dael> ...: Avoiding all page float seems a worthy goal since they seem hard to define and don't have a lot of support outside formatters.
# [02:27] <dael> ...: Good news this seems to be easy to extene in the future to support multiple streams of footnotes.
# [02:27] <dael> ...: This isn't that common, but might be used in academic circles
# [02:27] <dael> ...: This gives us a nice way to suppress footnote area
# [02:28] <dael> glaz: The way footnotes are created and the relationship between how they work is clearer. Heret he mechanisim is understood. You can figure out what's going on
# [02:28] <dael> dauwhe: We don't have to float the footnote element, we can remain agnostic on floating the footnote and we can see what impl think on that. It's regions so people are happy. Aside form performace.
# [02:29] * Joins: Rosen (~Rosen@public.cloak)
# [02:29] <dael> ...: Bad news this changes syntax from existing impl. I'm not sure that's a huge issue b/c I expect they can tack on new syntax
# [02:29] <dael> ...: One issue with the regions appraoch is as you move the footnote out you need to leave a marker and I don't know you.
# [02:29] * astearns suggests to people reading the minutes that the performance comment was presented as a joke :)
# [02:29] <liam> s/know you/know how/
# [02:29] <dael> ...: You can do markup with two layers of markup but that's not particularly elegant.
# [02:30] <dael> ...: I have a sense that this whole idea of having something left behind when you move might be worthwhile elsewhere.
# [02:30] <dael> Rosen: Have you tried to move the section and leave a note
# [02:30] <dael> astearns: I think the before and after are included so there's not outside
# [02:30] * sgalineau imagine how much faster mobile browsers will be once we've added then removed GCPM
# [02:30] <dael> dauwhe: It would have been cool if it didn't get moved intot he region
# [02:30] * liam having hard time following as can't see what is projected
# [02:31] <dael> ...: footnotes still require an amount of magic. It has to be on the same page and there's problem that the footnote can be close to the bottom and need to flow.
# [02:31] <dael> ...: I think this makes the underlying structure a bit clearer.
# [02:31] * astearns liam: it's mainly bullet points that are actually being captures in Dave's comments
# [02:31] <dael> ...: This might be a good way to solve renninghead problems as well.
# [02:31] <dael> ...: Doing this with flows and this flow option static seems to be a good way of doing that.
# [02:31] * astearns liam and examples that look very much like css-page-template code
# [02:32] * liam q+ to note that "on same page" applies also to figures/figure references, and marginalia and may be worth making non-magic
# [02:32] <dael> ...: We could also define these margin boxes using the slot idea or something similar so we could have aribitraty numbers in arbitrary positions, which I know there has been interest in.
# [02:32] <SteveZ> I think that Rossen's suggestion that a footnote element affect both the place where it occurs and also have content that moves to a flow is a good one
# [02:32] <liam> +1
# [02:32] <dael> ...: So that's what I'm thinking right now and I'm wondering if it makes sense and if it's impl-able and if this is a better direction
# [02:33] <dael> glaz: I think this is consistant with what I said the potential for paged media 4 is. All the features I said were needed are here. In my opinion I'd like to see that in a draft
# [02:33] <dael> glaz: I think that both the web and the pub industry need it. We need it for dynamic web.
# [02:33] <dael> hober: I think this is good. I'm happy to see resurected @slot.
# [02:34] <dael> hober: You mentioned it's difficult to leave something behind, it got me thinking
# [02:34] <dael> hober: We have relative positioning that leaves a place holder
# [02:34] <dael> fantasai: aboslute positioning
# [02:34] <dael> hober: Relative is offset from where it would be in flow. There's a placeholder taking a space
# [02:34] <dael> TabAtkins: It's geometry is still there
# [02:34] <dael> dauwhe: So it knows where the top corner is
# [02:35] <dael> hober: So suppose you wanted to put something where the place holder is. If we have a pseudo for filling the area you could use that for both cases.
# [02:35] <dael> hober: It's ::place-holder or static or whatever.
# [02:35] <dael> hober: You wouldn't have to define that yourself, we could do that elsewhere
# [02:35] <dael> dauwhe: If I had that I could throw thing on there to add numbering or side notes
# [02:36] <dael> hober: So that's a question for astearns. With regions you tell a bunch of elements to flow and they get yanked out. Is there a use-case for inserting content where it flowed from?
# [02:36] <dael> astearns: In this case, one of the original use cases for named flow is to take figures out where float pos isn't attiquite
# [02:36] <dael> hober: So like frame 1
# [02:36] <dael> dauwhe: It's a huge use in accademic
# [02:36] <dael> glaz: It's a footnote reference
# [02:37] <dael> dauwhe: This i huge in academic
# [02:37] <dael> astearns: And we could use it outside of this flow. Instead of leaving entire geometry there the place holder gets...
# [02:37] <dael> hober: I'd leave relative position
# [02:37] <dael> astearns: This is a new thing...
# [02:37] <dael> dbaron: One term thing is that we often use placeholder for the thing in the original in absolute so use of placeholder in relative is confusing.
# [02:38] <dael> glaz: THe only complex thing is th magic for the link between footnote reference and that's magic. Have you thought of that?
# [02:38] <dael> dauwhe: no
# [02:38] <dael> glaz: I have a solution. We can talk about it
# [02:38] <dael> astearns: You mentioned abandoned page...
# [02:38] <dael> astearns: I've been thinging as posponed we'd been waiting on paginated view and then do page templates, but you're concerned with printing.
# [02:39] <liam> [note that "on same page" applies also to figures/figure references, and marginalia and may be worth making non-magic]
# [02:39] <dael> glaz: I think we can do one without the other
# [02:39] <dael> dauwhe: This is an improvement to GCPM. We can start to build out pagination concepts in the enviroment.
# [02:39] <SteveZ> In an interactive environment, it is desirable that footnotes turn into a call-out which if you mouse over gives you a tool tip with the footnote contents
# [02:39] * liam thanks, that's better to her
# [02:39] <dael> fantasai: It seems we're in right direction, I think it needs more work
# [02:39] * liam hear
# [02:40] <dael> fantasai: I wouldn't say this is defeinitly it, but I like the direction. I noticed with slot you had required flow and it made me think how content prop works
# [02:40] <dael> fantasai: For a pseudo if it's oriignal value you don't general. It makes me think it should be pulled through there.
# [02:40] <liam> [interactive env - diagree with stevez because ebooks don't do hover very well - must be possible to have visible footnote area]
# [02:40] <dael> glaz: In some books you need the area even if it's blank
# [02:40] <dael> dauwhe: Does it take all it's children, or just the text
# [02:41] <dael> TabAtkins: It can if you have mixed text and URL you can mix
# [02:41] <dael> dauwhe: Okay. I may have a deep structure I have to move
# [02:41] <dael> fantasai: Another reason we can't define content to do that
# [02:41] <dael> dauwhe: My knowledge is based on implementaitons that give a non-starter
# [02:42] <dael> fantasai: So instead of flow-from you'd say content. We had a content propetry right?
# [02:42] <dael> glaz: You want content flow from?
# [02:42] <dael> astearns: I think it was a function
# [02:42] <dael> fantasai: If we had done that syntax the behaviour would fall out
# [02:42] <dael> astearns: In two prop it lets you decide if it's at original value you get the situation you described
# [02:43] <dael> dauwhe: I've done a lot one teachers editions books and there might be places where you have teachers notes that needs space, but shouldn't appear. So havething things occupy space without showing
# [02:43] * liam having hard time hearing dauwhe
# [02:43] <dael> dbaron: If they're the same size it's a good thing for visability hidden
# [02:43] <dael> glaz: Also annotations by students.
# [02:43] <dael> glaz: If you want them to fall into footnotes not margin
# [02:43] <dael> dauwhe: It does bring up that footnotes are annotations
# [02:44] <dael> jet: So when you have the teachers edition, you have non-security issues
# [02:44] * Joins: Matsuki (~Matsuki@public.cloak)
# [02:44] <dael> liam: I think that the link between margin area annotations footnote and figures they all the the constraint that they're ont he same page ast he reference
# [02:44] <glazou> SteveZ: I muted you because of noise, let me know if you want to be unmuted
# [02:44] <dael> liam: So I don't think we should go too far from annotations
# [02:45] <dael> liam: It's worth rememebring for an ebook, the important thing about footnotes is that you design a book so user can glance at the page and see the notes. You don't need to do any action
# [02:45] <dael> liam: So in a book reader you want the footnotes area to be possibly always visable.
# [02:45] <dael> liam: So you need the footnotes specially styled so it apears in the right place.
# [02:46] <dael> liam: I can't see the exapmles, but you want to make sure the user agent knows the footnotes in some way
# [02:46] <dael> dauwhe: I agree the visula model has value that we haven't been able to achieve digitally. Being viable w/o user intereaction but being discrete is something we don't get.
# [02:46] * liam thanks
# [02:46] <dael> ...: I'll write an email with the syntax when I get a chance.
# [02:47] <dael> ...: So this feels like a good direction
# [02:47] <dael> plinss: We want to make sure footnote isn't limited to @page
# [02:47] <dael> dauwhe: Yes
# [02:47] <dael> plinss: You should be able to generate a box and put it somewhere.
# [02:47] <dael> dauwhe: It also, we might need special behaviours with Korean side ends. That's another reason to use this more generic syntax.
# [02:47] <dael> ...: Okay
# [02:48] <dael> glaz: What do you want us?
# [02:48] * Joins: Dong-Young_Lee (~Dong-Young_Lee@public.cloak)
# [02:48] <dael> dauwhe: The question is...given the history of GCPM, getting something done is high on my list. One poss appraoch is to do minimal footnote impl that matches AH and Prince as level 3 and start this at levl 4
# [02:48] <dael> hober: Is it possible to desc behaviour with the same model at the fuller level 4
# [02:49] <dael> hober: This can be a simplier expression
# [02:49] <dael> glaz: There's magic in current GCPM. Overflow behaviour of footnote is badly defined
# [02:49] * liam q+ to check that proposed approach does not preclude multiple levels of footnotes in the future
# [02:49] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [02:49] <dael> glaz: It should be better.
# [02:49] <dael> dauwhe: Maybe I'll try and write this up and I would love some assistance on what I exactly need to define futher.
# [02:49] <dael> hober: It makes sense to write what we want and then write what we need.
# [02:50] <dael> glaz: So you would prefer a requirements doc?
# [02:50] <dael> hober: No, it seems to make sense to flesh level 4 and backfill 3
# [02:50] <dael> fantasai: I agree. In some cases I wouldn'tb ut in this case we need to know where we'regoing
# [02:50] <dael> dauwhe: I don't want to spec into a corner
# [02:50] <SteveZ> +1 for hober's comment
# [02:50] <dael> astearns: Liam has a question on the q about not backing into a corner
# [02:51] * glazou agrees too entirely
# [02:51] <dael> dauwhe: Syntatically we have it into @page and we could keep going
# [02:51] <TabAtkins> liam: What do you mean by "multiple levels"?
# [02:51] <dael> hober: Everything is a custom-dent there.
# [02:51] <dael> dauwhe: i could build another slot inside the slots
# [02:51] <dael> glaz: So you draft you're proposing is integrating from page and paged media 4? Is that needed for these documents?
# [02:52] <liam> [ https://www.w3.org/Style/XSL/Group/2008/06/footnote-examples/pages/Hearne-Itinerary-5-15/ is an example with 2 levels of footnotes ]
# [02:52] <dael> glaz: Do you prefer keeping paged templates on one hand
# [02:52] <dael> dauwhe: Initially keeping seperate because I don' tknow where this will end up.
# [02:52] <dael> hober: Yeah.
# [02:52] <liam> [ Member-only link, sorry - I could move it somewhere public I suppose ]
# [02:52] <dael> astearns: I think it makes sense. To solve footnotes it may be you want to solve it and then we see if we can extend
# [02:53] <dael> hober: To ask the process question, is there charter concern with this having possible overlap?
# [02:53] <dael> glaz: There's something...in short no.
# [02:53] <dael> astearns: There's one issue you mentioned in codebug where if you're just taking named flow this flow into footnote is creating a single names flow and this is pulling on a page by page basis.
# [02:53] <dael> astearns: You want a kind of flow, maybe flowinto page (footnote)
# [02:54] <liam> [ multiple levels can also be considered multiple streams of footnotes, e.g. in a multilingual doc with all the greek together & then all the english notes ]
# [02:54] <dael> dauwhe: Yeah. We may need something like that
# [02:54] <dael> hober: We have something like that so that ti's only things that appear on this one page
# [02:54] <dael> plinss: Footnotes sometimes need to flow.
# [02:54] <dael> hober: You can always
# [02:54] <dael> plinss: Almost always, but not always. If the footnotes pushes off the page...
# [02:54] <SteveZ> I think to do footnotes you need the concept of one region (the footnote area) eating into another region the body text area
# [02:55] <dael> dbaron: And if the footnote can't appear on the page at all it has to be all on the same page.
# [02:55] <liam> yes (region intruding)
# [02:55] <dael> dauwhe: Prince has something where if things get bad just run the reference on a new page.
# [02:55] <dael> ...: So process, would this be a ED of GCPM 4? Can that coexist with 3?
# [02:55] <glazou> for the record http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jan/0133.html
# [02:55] <dael> TabAtkins: Yeah. We don't have two levels at the same status, but if the later one is lower it's fine.
# [02:56] <dael> TabAtkins: If you take the entire previous level and try and sync changes, I rec level 4 is just the thigns you're changing.
# [02:56] <dael> dbaron: It sounds like his idea of figuing out what the feature should be will someone contridict that process.
# [02:56] <dael> dauwhe: I can figure it out
# [02:56] <dael> plinss: You can write level 4 as you want and backport
# [02:56] <dael> glaz: Are you looking for a co-editor? I volunteer
# [02:57] <dael> glaz: The link I pasted above is my thoughts on a new approach
# [02:57] <dael> plinss: So we shoudl do a res for GCPM 4
# [02:57] <SteveZ> I suggest that you put an issue in level 3 that points to what is happening in level 4
# [02:57] <dael> glaz: I wanted to do that originally in paged media 4 and we did a resolution on that
# [02:57] <dael> plinss: Since wer'e talking about 4 we should record a resoptuion
# [02:57] <liam> [I will be happy to review drafts, make diagrams etc., of course]
# [02:58] <dael> dauwhe: And we can address the relationship in the future
# [02:58] <dael> RESOLVED: ED for GCPM 4
# [02:58] <dael> dauwhe: Thank you.
# [02:58] <SteveZ> s/resoptuion/resolution/
# [02:58] <dael> plinss: Next was test results, but we don't have chris
# [02:58] <dael> plinss: So CSS OM?
# [02:58] <dael> plinss: Okay...Scoping?
# [02:59] <dael> TabAtkins: We talked about that
# [02:59] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [02:59] * TabAtkins http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-scoping/
# [03:00] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [03:00] <dael> TabAtkins: Scoping is the eveloution of shadowDOM that I started earier
# [03:00] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak)
# [03:00] <dael> TabAtkins: This unifies with shadowDOM and scoed styles and cascade that we didn't have before
# [03:00] <dael> TabAtkins: The big thing is to A review the new scoping stuff because there were some issues.
# [03:00] <dael> TabAtkins: And then I believe we wanted final signoff on shadowDOM selectors
# [03:00] * SteveZ SteveZ dropping off for the rest of the morning. I will return at 1PM Korea time for the afternoon session.
# [03:03] <dael> TabAtkins: The scoping mechanism is the unifier of the things that scope
# [03:03] * Quits: jh_hong (~jh_hong@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [03:03] <dael> dbaron: Wiat so...scoped, what is scoped cascade?
# [03:03] * Joins: jh_ (~jh_@public.cloak)
# [03:03] <dael> TabAtkins: The effect of scoped rules on casacade
# [03:03] <dael> dbaron: The scoped element on the style element
# [03:03] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
# [03:03] <dael> dbaron: So the change in cascade priorities
# [03:03] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [03:03] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
# [03:03] * Quits: Matsuki (~Matsuki@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:03] <dael> fantasai: So there's no intro, but scoped styles describes what they are and talks about mechanisism that we dont' define here, but give ex. Then we have @scope which is the new thing
# [03:03] <dael> fantasai: Then we have the issue
# [03:03] <dael> TabAtkins: So this is the prop CSS syntax to do stylesheets with scope inside a stylesheet. That should be equiv.
# [03:03] * dauwhe sorry I wasn't on IRC. My computer was busy showing the slides about footnotes.
# [03:04] <dael> TabAtkins: There was feed back saying that this being able to be inline would make people do this a lot and might defeat the assumptiont aht people don't uset his much
# [03:04] <dael> plh: Have you considered global?
# [03:04] <dael> TabAtkins: That's futher down. For now we drapped it to figure out later.
# [03:05] <plh> s/global/@global/
# [03:05] <dael> fantasai: There's an issue on if there's multi @scope do we cascade by spec. or make them equal
# [03:05] <dael> TabAtkins: Pointer to scope pseudo and a possiblity for how to define @global rule.
# [03:05] <dael> TabAtkins: This is defined similar to how post context is for shadowDOM.
# [03:05] <dael> TabAtkins: It doesn't address everythings @global would do but it does the main useful thing
# [03:06] <dael> dbaron: The daults is that the selectors don't go out of the scope?
# [03:06] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes. The dafault for scope style sheets is that it is self containted. The other is filtering where the results have the be self containted
# [03:06] <dael> fantasai: And confuses a lot of authors
# [03:06] <dael> TabAtkins: Other potentials..
# [03:06] <astearns> s/self contained/contained within the scope/
# [03:07] <astearns> bah
# [03:07] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:07] <astearns> s/self containted/contained within the scope/
# [03:07] <dael> fantasai: This needs syntax setting for us to figure out what's reasonable for us to expressmatching. This is functional to match.
# [03:07] <dael> glaz: So whatever is the choice that the presence would trigger selecting outside the scope
# [03:07] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes. scope context selects inside but evaluates outside. It doesn't quite cause an outside trigger
# [03:08] <dael> TabAtkins: The other possiblitiy is the select directly which is a way to select outside
# [03:08] <dael> TabAtkins: There would be various combintor ways to trigger it. The presense of this causes us to start outside the tree
# [03:09] <dael> fantasai: There's a problem with not being able to do pairing of slashed. We'd have to go with the 1st or 4th possible idea in section 2.2.2
# [03:09] <dael> glaz: I don't like the backslash, but I like the one character determining non-scope selector and the scoped one.
# [03:09] <dael> glaz: Where did you add scope?
# [03:09] <dael> TabAtkins: The idea is the tie into the named combinator
# [03:10] <dael> glaz: You can extend that. I'd prefer 3
# [03:10] <dael> fantasai: Problem with that is the nesting
# [03:10] <dael> TabAtkins: We couldn't do a deep selector in that arguement
# [03:10] <dael> fantasai: If there's other idea or opitions I'd like to hear them.
# [03:10] <dael> fantasai: Or any approch becides an @rule
# [03:11] <dael> TabAtkins: On that note one thing this selector appraoch wouldn't do is defferentiate between name defining within scope vs global. It wouldn be good to have a way to denote
# [03:11] <dael> glaz: Can you add an ex?
# [03:11] <dael> TabAtkins: Yeah.
# [03:11] <dbaron> 1. :scope-context(<selector>)
# [03:11] <dbaron> 2. scope(<selector>) div
# [03:11] <dael> glaz: A real example
# [03:11] <dbaron> 3. /scope <selector>/ div
# [03:11] <dbaron> 4. <selector> /scope/ div
# [03:11] <dael> action TabAtkins fantasai Add an example to section 2.2.2
# [03:11] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [03:11] <dbaron> 1. :scope-context(<selector>) div
# [03:11] <trackbot> Created ACTION-625 - Fantasai add an example to section 2.2.2 [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2014-05-27].
# [03:12] * Quits: SteveZ (~SteveZ@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:12] <dael> fantasai: Next is shadowDON stuff. This is basicallyt he text. It gives an example and an overview.
# [03:12] <dael> fantasai: The main this is if we should do shadowDOM, which is out of scope for today and the next thing is the syntax of the various shadowDOM things
# [03:12] <dael> TabAtkins: We ended up getting agreement on all out points so we should be good now.
# [03:13] <dael> TabAtkins: The interesting part is if you care abotu shadowDOM we can go over it, but it's what we've talked about. We can do section 4
# [03:13] <dael> fantasai: There's a couple issues in the spec for syntax, one is ::content which crosses a shadow boundry but it seens it's jsut selecting a pseudo
# [03:14] <dael> fantasai: Unless you're using showdDOM it's not clear. It could use some bikeshedding so it's not too general
# [03:14] <dael> hober: It says specific to the projected content, so why not projected content
# [03:14] <dael> TabAtkins: It's a million, or 16, characters
# [03:15] <dael> fantasai: WE can do projcection?
# [03:15] <dael> dbaron: Are they exposed to authors?
# [03:15] <dael> TabAtkins: They are in shadow dom
# [03:15] <dael> astearns: Wasn't this distributed
# [03:15] <dael> TabAtkins: About a year ago.
# [03:15] <dael> fantasai: This one is more unclear.
# [03:15] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak) ("")
# [03:15] <dael> fantasai: My best suggestion is to call it projected
# [03:15] <dael> hober: It's better than content
# [03:15] <dael> astearns: projected vs projection
# [03:16] <dael> dbaron: I'm distrubed by the # of terms exposed to authors in ShadowDOM
# [03:16] * hober how about "projecterator"?
# [03:16] <dael> dbaron: I think it's okay to have a lot of terms in the spec, but you may want to be careful about exposing too many
# [03:16] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't knwo general policy. I may be using technical terms and we might have less stupid terms for general discussion
# [03:16] <dael> fantasai: I don't think we do
# [03:16] <dael> fantasai: I think this should be renamed
# [03:17] <dael> fantasai: On the suggestion list we have projected and projection. Anything else?
# [03:17] <dael> TabAtkins: Becides content, no
# [03:17] <dael> astearns: shadowcontent?
# [03:17] * dauwhe invoke the shadow at your peril!
# [03:17] <dael> TabAtkins: It's not actually shadow so you don't want to involke that work
# [03:17] <astearns> s/astearns/zcorpan/
# [03:17] <dael> s/work/word
# [03:17] <TabAtkins> s/work/word/
# [03:17] * glazou this is the shadow side of the force
# [03:18] <dael> glaz: Projected and projection are both bad. I displiek them both
# [03:18] <dael> hober: Lightcontent?
# [03:18] <dael> TabAtkins: That'st he rest of the doc, though.
# [03:18] <dbaron> Tab: The naming scheme came from me making legend of zelda jokes when we were starting the project
# [03:18] <dbaron> dbaron: maybe that's why I find it confusing?
# [03:19] <dael> fantasai: You're taking the light DOM and than you have an elemtn with children and that's a shadow host. Then you attach a shodow tree and you have an element that says grab this when it was in the light and arrange in this fashion
# [03:19] <dael> fantasai: So it's not completely the light element
# [03:19] <dael> dbaron: So are you selecting based on the path through the shadowDOM?
# [03:19] * hober how about "::light-descendants-that-got-projected-into-this-shadow-dom"
# [03:20] <dael> dbaron: There was something about a proection. Are you running selectors on the tree that results?
# [03:20] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak)
# [03:20] * astearns s/into-this/into-this-here/
# [03:20] <dael> TabAtkins: More or less. It is linked to the children. It selects children of the shadow host and then selects against the children in the shadow
# [03:20] <dael> plinss: You can also select to the side.
# [03:20] * hober ::triforce? *ducks*
# [03:20] <dael> dbaron: So the tree that results we used to call full flattened
# [03:21] <dael> TabAtkins: Depending on what you mean by fully flattened
# [03:21] <dbaron> s/full flattened/fully flattened/
# [03:21] <dael> fantasai: If you go down another level of shadow you don't see things
# [03:21] <dael> dbaron: We don't need to do this now
# [03:21] <dael> TabAtkins: [draws it on the whiteboard]
# [03:22] <dael> TabAtkins: The ::content only selects what can be seen by the div unless you expicitly decend into the shadowDOM
# [03:22] <dael> TabAtkins: So it's not fully-flattened.
# [03:22] <dael> dbaron: So ::content is for styles in the shadow stuff
# [03:23] <dael> TabAtkins: From the outside you could do ::shadow ::content div and you can carve a path
# [03:23] <dael> dbaron: So ::content gets you from the shadow to the light
# [03:23] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
# [03:23] <dbaron> dbaron: and ::shadow the reverse?
# [03:23] <dael> TabAtkins: All the interesting examples have two or three levels of shadows so it's intresting
# [03:23] <dael> fantasai: So I see three options, content, projected, or bikeshed
# [03:24] <dael> Rosen: Call it bikeshed.
# [03:24] <dael> hober: Wouldn't that get confused with the one we did years ago?
# [03:24] <dael> fantasai: That was renamed
# [03:24] <dael> dbaron: I don't like lgiht as a term, was there a reson not to do ::light?
# [03:25] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes. Because it goes to some of the light children, but not all of them. The light is everything outside the shadow, this isn't everything
# [03:25] <dael> hober: We use content to mean everything too
# [03:25] <dael> fantasai: [writes example on whiteboard]
# [03:26] <dael> fantasai: So what I'm looking at isn't the light dom, but a projection of it throught he shadow tree. It could be the same, but it could be something different
# [03:26] <dael> fantasai: It could be in the same order or a different order, or mangled in some way. It's filtered
# [03:27] <dael> plinss: So if I have a regular selector, I could just say x-ul even though it's been propegated through the shadow
# [03:27] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
# [03:27] <dael> fantasai: So we have three proposals
# [03:28] <dael> fantasai: 1) ::content 2) ::projected 3) ::shenanigans 4) ::light
# [03:28] <dael> plinss: So how firm are the terms for these contcepts in the shadow world?
# [03:28] * astearns ::content-devilry
# [03:28] <dael> TabAtkins: They've been stable for a while
# [03:28] <dael> TabAtkins: Spec names have been stable
# [03:29] <dael> plinss: We should align with what they use
# [03:29] <dael> fantasai: I think we spend more time thinking about the authors
# [03:29] <dael> hober: If we come up with a good name, we should suggest they change
# [03:29] <dael> fantasai: I think we need to come up with something clearer
# [03:29] <dael> astearns: I like ::projected-content
# [03:30] <dael> fantasai: 5) ::distributed
# [03:30] <dbaron> 1. ::content
# [03:30] <dbaron> 2. ::projected [-content]?
# [03:30] <dbaron> 3. ::shenanigans
# [03:30] <dbaron> 4. ::light [-content]?
# [03:30] <dael> TabAtkins: You can only style them if your style sheet is outside of the component. If you are inside you don't have access to the inside
# [03:30] <dbaron> 5. ::distributed [-content]?
# [03:30] <dael> fantasai: The code that creats and shadow
# [03:30] <dael> plinss: I've I'm walking the tree and I still seeing these things?
# [03:31] <dael> TabAtkins: Not through ordinary content. If you use ::content you can ask for where things were redistributed
# [03:31] <dael> plinss: So if we have examples of using from outside, you won't do that unless you have bizarre structure you shouldn't do
# [03:31] <dael> TabAtkins: Right.
# [03:31] <dael> fantasai: Any other possible names?
# [03:32] <dael> plinss: Do you wanta decision now?
# [03:32] <dael> fantasai: I think we need something better than ::content
# [03:32] <dael> hober: So does anyone obj to removing content from an option
# [03:32] <dael> TabAtkins: yes
# [03:32] <dael> hober: To changing it to something else?
# [03:32] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't know. I can tell you yea or nay once Dimitry responds
# [03:33] <dael> TabAtkins: I need to talk to people to know my opinion
# [03:33] <dael> hober: So there's a potential obj to changing from TabAtkins. Does anyone else?
# [03:33] <dael> hober: Who thinks we should change it?
# [03:33] <dael> [11 hands]
# [03:33] <dael> fantasai: Okay. So TabAtkins if we decide to change it...
# [03:34] <dael> TabAtkins: I'll obj or not if we think we can change it
# [03:34] <dael> hober: I thought part of the deal with early ship is you have to change it you'd change
# [03:34] <dael> fantasai: So we have on branch of TabAtkins objections and one where he doesn't.
# [03:34] <dael> fantasai: So let's remove ::content
# [03:34] <dael> hober: ::shenangians
# [03:34] <dael> fantasai: Okay. Any obj?
# [03:35] <dael> fantasai: Any other proposals to eliminate?
# [03:35] * dauwhe Even if I shall walk in the valleys of the shadows of DOM, I will not be afraid of evil, because you are with me; your roots and your selectors, they comfort me...
# [03:35] <dael> zcorpan: with or without content?
# [03:35] * glazou dauwhe ROFL
# [03:35] <dael> plinss: If they all have the content option.
# [03:35] <dael> zcorpan: I would vote different with or without content.
# [03:35] <dael> TabAtkins: This isn't simple voting
# [03:36] <dael> hober: We can do one with and one without.
# [03:36] <dael> dbaron: Or we do a poll where you can do state both if they vary
# [03:36] <dael> astearns: I think my pref varies on if it's there
# [03:36] <dael> zcorpan: If content is there I prefer light, but without it it doens't make sense
# [03:37] <dael> astearns: I had that exact thought. Light with content matches the shadow pseduo and so it's explicaple to authors be requires that content suffix
# [03:37] <dael> dbaron: Should we remove the ? from 4
# [03:37] <dael> dbaron: Does anyone think it should be ::light without the -content?
# [03:37] <dael> hober: I can live with it, but I prefer it to have content
# [03:37] <dael> fantasai: Any other options?
# [03:37] <dbaron> now we have 4. ::light-content?
# [03:37] <dael> fantasai: poll?
# [03:37] <dbaron> oh, except they're A B C D E
# [03:38] <dael> glaz: abs.
# [03:38] <dael> glaz: because the whole thing seems to be crazy.
# [03:38] * sgalineau never thought of dauwhe as Samuel L. Jackson in Pulp Fiction. This is why we have IRC.
# [03:38] <dael> Rosen: 2
# [03:38] * dbaron thought that was just Psalms 23:4
# [03:38] <dael> hober: 5
# [03:39] <dael> glenn: abs
# [03:39] * dauwhe and I didn't think of pulp fiction. My dad is a priest.
# [03:39] <dael> koji: abs
# [03:39] <dael> jet: abs
# [03:39] <dael> zcorpan: 4
# [03:39] <dael> astearns: 4
# [03:39] <dael> TabAtkins: 1 or 4
# [03:39] * dauwhe sgalineau: nice GCPM joke earlier. Didn't see it until I read the minutes.
# [03:39] <dael> andrey: abs
# [03:40] * sgalineau will always be grateful for GCPM. So many jokes.
# [03:40] <dael> adenilson: 2 because when it comes to projection it matches the concept of shadowDOM
# [03:40] <dael> adenilson: I think it makes sense
# [03:41] <dael> bruno: 2 but without -content
# [03:41] * dauwhe and we're taking it to the next level :)
# [03:41] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [03:41] <dael> Dong-Young_Lee: 2 with ot without content
# [03:41] <dael> plh: abs
# [03:41] <dael> shans_: 4
# [03:41] <adenilson> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphical_projection
# [03:41] <dael> shinyu: abs
# [03:41] <dael> dauwhe: abs
# [03:41] <dael> dbaron: 5 than 4 than 2
# [03:41] <dael> plinss: 2
# [03:41] <adenilson> projected makes sense if you think of the Shadow DOM as a 3rd axis in the 2D DOM.
# [03:41] <dael> fantasai: 2 or 4. No order.
# [03:42] <dwim> s/Dong-Young_Lee/dwim/
# [03:42] * sgalineau is same as fantasai, fwiw
# [03:42] <dael> fantasai: ::projected because the definition is resonable and I think light-content has a nice tie in.
# [03:42] * hober sgalineau: don't emote that; you can vote from seattle :)
# [03:42] <dael> fantasai: So having it tie into ::shadow and the element seems pretty useful to create this connection
# [03:43] <dael> fantasai: So it's either ::projected or ::light-content
# [03:43] <dael> plinss: Roughly same number of votes
# [03:43] <dael> fantasai: I think we want aurhot feedback
# [03:43] * sgalineau vote is tied. this is ready for last call! http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/post/86249368467/w3cmemes-believes-in-living-memes-just-say-no-to
# [03:43] <dael> TabAtkins: We went through all these names and ::content sounded best to authors
# [03:43] <dael> fantasai: So we're down to these sounding good.
# [03:44] <dael> hober: I think these are both big improvements
# [03:44] <dael> fantasai: They have different advantages.
# [03:44] <dael> plinss: So I'd recommend you note them both as potentials and get author feedback
# [03:44] <dael> hober: When you set up this there was a poss TabAtkins would obj. Are you?
# [03:44] * dauwhe make sure to determine in advance at what point in the voting you need to change the question.
# [03:44] <dael> TabAtkins: No. Just to a bad name
# [03:44] <dael> hober: Do you think either are bad
# [03:44] <dael> TabAtkins: They're both bad.
# [03:45] <dael> fantasai: I think we need author feedback
# [03:45] <dael> TabAtkins: I'll only object if we don't get author feedback
# [03:45] * sgalineau this is EU-style polling. we will ask the question until we get the right answer.
# [03:45] <dael> fantasai: So we'll put them both in and create a poll
# [03:45] <dael> hober: If content isn't an option, so we provisionally rename?
# [03:45] <dael> TabAtkins: I want to put conten in the poll
# [03:45] <dael> astearns: Some people in the WG object to content so it will make it stall
# [03:46] <dael> TabAtkins: But what if authors want content?
# [03:46] <dael> plinss: People in this room are looking at all of CSS and we can't do that in the poll
# [03:46] <dael> hober: So can we agree to not have content?
# [03:46] <dael> astearns: I suggest we say we want to rename content to one of these things. If author opinion is so strong you'll get write in and you can bring it back
# [03:46] * dauwhe astearns: +1
# [03:47] <dael> hober: It is the case that if it's on the poll it will change minds
# [03:47] <dael> plinss: We've had authors scream for things that we'll never do in CSS
# [03:47] <dael> TabAtkins: I've also had authors give us great ideas
# [03:47] <dael> plinss: But we've already thought of content and rejected it
# [03:47] <dael> dbaron: And the way you work a poll strongly influences the result
# [03:47] <dael> TabAtkins: That's why I have fantasai read these polls
# [03:48] <dael> action TabAtkins poll on the author option for replacements to ::content
# [03:48] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [03:48] <trackbot> Created ACTION-626 - Poll on the author option for replacements to ::content [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2014-05-27].
# [03:48] <dael> fantasai: Next issue was about the deep combinator
# [03:48] <dael> fantasai: the /deep/ combinator is a super decendant and it goes through whatever it needs to
# [03:49] <dael> fantasai: TabAtkins suggested it would make sense that instead of using deep we should make it a triple child combinator
# [03:49] <dael> astearns: I really like the triple combinator
# [03:49] <dael> fantasai: I think it makse them all fit together
# [03:49] <dael> dbaron: Is this with whitespace?
# [03:49] <dael> fantasai: Either
# [03:49] <dael> hober: Between the >> signs
# [03:49] <dael> fantasai: Oh, no.
# [03:49] * sgalineau i was wondering when whitespace would show up again. relieved.
# [03:49] <dael> TabAtkins: It's a triple glyph
# [03:50] <dael> plinss: Are these new tokins?
# [03:50] <dael> fantasai: Any other options?
# [03:50] <dael> plinss: I like it
# [03:50] <dael> fantasai: Any negative opinions?
# [03:50] <dael> TabAtkins: I have less opinion
# [03:50] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [03:50] <dael> fantasai: raise hand if you like the triple?
# [03:50] <dael> TabAtkins: Only if we do the double
# [03:50] * sgalineau is unable to parse "TabAtkins: I have less opinion"
# [03:50] <dael> hober: I'm not crazy about adding redundant
# [03:51] * TabAtkins sgalineau: I've spent all my opinion.
# [03:51] <dael> hober: It's astetically pleasing, but we shouldn't add author exposed things for aestetic reasons
# [03:51] <dael> TabAtkins: Sure we should
# [03:51] <dael> hober: I won't obj but I'm concerned
# [03:51] <dael> TabAtkins: B/c the decendant is white space, if it starts with a combinator explicitly you're fine. Elsewise if you look for a scope and if you have one it's done.
# [03:52] <dael> hober: So that's a use case so it's fine
# [03:52] <dael> dbaron: I wonder if there's an analogy for peoples like/dislike of == and ===== etc.
# [03:52] <dael> dbaron: I don't think it's that strong so I think I'm okay.
# [03:52] <dbaron> s/it's/the analogy is/
# [03:53] <dael> plinss: So no one is objecting?
# [03:53] <dael> TabAtkins: The double/triple
# [03:53] * sgalineau and like JS, if >> doesn't quite work right we can always go >>>
# [03:54] <TabAtkins> Add ">>" as an alias for the descendant combinator, and change /deep/ to >>>
# [03:55] <dael> RESOLVED: Add ">>" as an alias for the descendant combinator, and change /deep/ to >>>
# [03:55] <dael> fantasai: THat's all the issues in the draft except things we need to write. Should we go over anything else?
# [03:56] <dael> plinss: So that's it on scoping?
# [03:56] <dael> fantasai: The only thing we haven't gone over is :host
# [03:56] * sgalineau ah, so >> is an alias. Nice.
# [03:56] <dael> fantasai: If we go with light-content maybe we should go with something else?
# [03:56] <dael> TabAtkins: No, that's unrelated. this is the right name for the author facing thing that's holding onto the shadow root
# [03:57] <dael> TabAtkins: So we should do the regions styling
# [03:57] <dael> TabAtkins: Since this is similar to the other topics we pulled the regions stuff into this.
# [03:57] <dael> TabAtkins: They're all basically the same thing. Take chunk of something that doesn't corrispond to markup and figure out how to style
# [03:57] * dauwhe looking forward to typing <<>>>>> in bikeshed
# [03:58] <dael> TabAtkins: We don't know what to do, but we've taked astearns text and made a modifcation to say what we want to do
# [03:58] <dael> plinss: My only concern is advancing scope in sync.
# [03:58] <dael> TabAtkins: Yeah.
# [03:58] <dael> fantasai: We might end up doing scoping 1 as small bits
# [03:58] <dael> astearns: There was an issue about getting the style information and I thought I had something in the old draft
# [03:58] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes and we removed it to put int he issue to say why it wasn't good enough.
# [03:59] <dael> plinss: Okay. Let's take a break until 11:15
# [03:59] <dael> Break = 15 minutes
# [04:14] * Quits: dael (~dael@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [04:22] * Joins: dael (~dael@public.cloak)
# [04:25] <dael> plinss: Let's resume. I see you're queing up for CSSOM?
# [04:25] <dael> plinss: So we want to wait for Chis? Okay.
# [04:25] <dael> plinss: Selectors 4?
# [04:25] * hober Live Free or Selectors
# [04:25] <dauwhe> s/Chis/Chris/
# [04:26] <dael> TabAtkins: We were doing flex last night and couldn't finish selectors
# [04:26] <dael> plinss: We'll defer that to tomorrow
# [04:26] <dael> plinss: Flexbox.
# [04:26] <dael> fantasai: There was a handful of editorial and there was the auto usage issue
# [04:26] <astearns> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox/
# [04:27] <dael> TabAtkins: When we were editing last night we can across a few issues. We were talking about static position and 2.1 is inocherent.
# [04:27] <dael> TabAtkins: It only defines left, right and top and left or right are ignored if you're LTR or RTL.
# [04:27] <dael> TabAtkins: CSS2.1 talks about it if you're a box where only sides
# [04:27] <dael> fantasai: This is editorial, but we can't rewrite without assuming that static position is being redefined.
# [04:28] <dael> fantasai: I wanted to mention it as an issue. As far as normative the old and new wording are equivllent in terms or resutls, it's just a difference of conceptionalizing
# [04:28] * Quits: Rosen (~Rosen@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [04:28] <dael> fantasai: If there's a strong option from anyone but Rosen let us know
# [04:28] <dael> dbaron: I might have an opinion
# [04:28] * Joins: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak)
# [04:28] <dael> TabAtkins: Okay. What do we do about def of staticpos
# [04:28] <dael> fantasai: I don't
# [04:29] <dael> TabAtkins: I learned it in web dev as a point. Is this errata or position?
# [04:29] * Joins: koji (~koji@public.cloak)
# [04:29] <dael> fantasai: I don't htink we need to do 2.1 It's just awkward
# [04:29] <dael> fantasai: I don't know what we want to do, but we should do what we can in position
# [04:29] <dael> fantasai: dbaron any opinion?
# [04:29] <dael> fantasai: on how to conceptualize style notation
# [04:30] * Joins: Matsuki (~Matsuki@public.cloak)
# [04:30] <dael> dbaron: If you want to do centering it's easier to redefine as a point. You have ot do it somehow because right now if it's a box that you chose and edge you already have to turn it into something else to do centering
# [04:30] <dael> plinss: I have the counter concern that going back to footnotes where we have a placeholder, why wouldn't that apply to statics and fixed and it could be a box and just usualy 0 size
# [04:30] <fantasai> s/awkward/awkward, but it's not wrong/
# [04:30] <dael> TabAtkins: I can't be. Tables mess eveything up
# [04:31] <dael> TabAtkins: I tried to say place holder is 0 by 0 box where the abspos is and that just wasn't possible. It's inconsistant with flex and it didn't work for tables at the time
# [04:31] <dael> TabAtkins: Tables without content have a different staticpos than would have been given
# [04:31] <dael> fantasai: Staticpos in 2.1 is a set of four offsets, the fourht of which they forgot to define
# [04:31] * Joins: karl (~karlcow@public.cloak)
# [04:32] <dael> dbaron: In theory you want that for vertical writing modes, but you want the def that's appropriate for the writing mode
# [04:32] <dael> fantasai: You need both dimensions and we have bottom to top
# [04:32] <dael> dbaron: Except you use what we have for left or right, not the missing bottom
# [04:32] <dael> dbaron: Unless there's a mismatch between abspos container and the containing block.
# [04:32] <dael> TabAtkins: So we'll at least persue the position. I'd like to make 2.1 not wrong
# [04:33] <dael> fantasai: It's not wrong, it doens't match how you think about it
# [04:33] <dael> dbaron: I don't think there's a need to change 2.1 but I don't know if position spec is ready to be referenced in that place
# [04:33] <dael> TabAtkins: It's not and that's my main problem
# [04:33] <dael> fantasai: I don't htink we need to change 2.1 I think we just need to be clear about how we handle it. The wording in spec is unambigous
# [04:33] <dael> fantasai: We're not abstact in building.
# [04:34] <dael> Rossen_: If posistion 3 is handled in grid, and we'll likely do that in the future.
# [04:34] <dael> fantasai: But for now if we're clear in flex box that's good
# [04:34] <dael> TabAtkins: The gregwhitworth thing we did last night. More intrinsic ratios being confusing
# [04:35] <dael> TabAtkins: Yesterday when we discussed flex basis because flex basis auto is just deeply confusing
# [04:35] <fantasai> s/flex basis auto/flex-basis: auto/
# [04:35] <dael> TabAtkins: fantasai came up with the suggestion as flex basis isn't used much and people are using the short hand, we may be able to change the keyword and keep flex auto doing what it does
# [04:36] <fantasai> relevant email - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014May/0192.html
# [04:36] <dael> TabAtkins: so flex auto would turn into flex basis change as needed which would be much less confusing.
# [04:36] <dael> TabAtkins: Shorthand expansion would be weird but it's already weird.
# [04:36] <dael> TabAtkins: I plan to add a use counter to see what the usage of flex basis auto is and if it's low we can change the keyword
# [04:37] <dael> fantasai: When we first had this spec auto matched max content but with some issues from impl feedback, it's not longer the same
# [04:37] * Quits: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak) (adenilson)
# [04:37] <dael> fantasai: Right now there's no way to say explicitly I want flex basis of auto which is a problem.
# [04:37] <dael> TabAtkins: I think that's all the flexbox issues
# [04:37] <dael> dbaron: Do you have a proposal for the new name?
# [04:37] <dael> TabAtkins: no
# [04:37] <dael> dbaron: size comes to mind or use-size
# [04:37] <dael> fantasai: match-size
# [04:38] <dael> dbaron: I'm trying to come up with omething that matches width or height
# [04:38] <dael> TabAtkins: main-size
# [04:38] <dael> TabAtkins: It means we use the main size
# [04:38] <dael> dbaron: Is that author exposed?
# [04:38] <dael> TabAtkins: It doesn't show up in any properties. It's extremely common but not technically used
# [04:38] <dael> dbaron: That seems reasonable to me.
# [04:38] <dael> fantasai: So we can draft that up.
# [04:39] <dael> action TabAtkins to get usage data
# [04:39] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [04:39] <trackbot> Created ACTION-627 - Get usage data [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2014-05-27].
# [04:39] <dael> action fantasai, TabAtkins to draft a concrete proposal
# [04:39] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [04:39] <trackbot> Error finding 'fantasai,'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
# [04:39] <dael> plinss: Do other flexbox impl have opinions on the change?
# [04:39] <dael> Rossen_: Should be fine.
# [04:39] <dael> action fantasai draft a concrete proposal
# [04:39] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [04:39] <trackbot> Created ACTION-628 - Draft a concrete proposal [on Elika Etemad - due 2014-05-27].
# [04:39] <dael> action TabAtkins draft a concrete proposal
# [04:39] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [04:39] <trackbot> Created ACTION-629 - Draft a concrete proposal [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2014-05-27].
# [04:39] <dael> fantasai: So that's where we are. I want to go over aspect ratio
# [04:40] <dael> fantasai: The simplified version is if we have 100 x100 image and set width 50 px and heigh max content
# [04:40] <dael> fantasai: What's the size of the image?
# [04:40] <dael> dbaron: max content shouldn't depend on spec width or height
# [04:40] <dael> fantasai: It does
# [04:40] <fantasai> s/width 50 px/width: 50px/
# [04:40] <dael> dbaron: I should depend on spec width or height inside, but not on the elemet istelf
# [04:41] <fantasai> s/heigh max content/height: max-content/
# [04:41] <dael> fantasai: That's not true on a paragraph. If I set width 50px that will depend on the max
# [04:41] <dael> dbaron: That's what happened when you define max-content?
# [04:41] <dael> dbaron: I don't like that def.
# [04:41] <fantasai> s/that will depend on the max/the max-content height will depend on that width/
# [04:41] <dael> TabAtkins: It doesn't do anything useful otherwise.
# [04:41] <fantasai> s/width 50px/width: 50px/
# [04:41] <dael> dbaron: It would be nice to pick something that didn't depent on width or height
# [04:42] <dael> Rossen_: Int he case of image I would expect it to be 50 x 100
# [04:42] <dael> TabAtkins: That's what spec says I think. That's not certain.
# [04:42] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't think I like it but I'm confused
# [04:42] <dael> dbaron: I think if you want to try and define you'll end up with circular cases for some combinations for max and min width/heigh and content
# [04:43] <dael> TabAtkins: We're trying to avoid that. With visibily hidden and min width content. For something wtih an aspect ratio the height affects the width so it needs to feed in
# [04:43] <dael> fantasai: We have two options. One is to build smartness into auto. The other is to redefine min and max to account for author spec constraints
# [04:43] <dael> dbaron: I'd rather the first one
# [04:43] <dael> fantasai: Okay
# [04:44] <dael> dbaron: I'd rather keep min/max content like primitives
# [04:44] <dael> Rossen_: Plus we're close to get getting the first option.
# [04:44] <dael> Rossen_: To get unblocked I'd go with defining how auto works to the extent we can for edge cases.
# [04:44] <dael> Rossen_: There will always be more edge cases.
# [04:44] <dael> fantasai: Okay. We'll work on that.
# [04:45] <dael> fantasai: I think that's it for flex. And we're doing the CR version of the alorithm?
# [04:45] <dael> fantasai: Did we discuss that?
# [04:45] <dael> TabAtkins: If we didn't we should resolve
# [04:45] <dael> dbaron: CR being the older one
# [04:45] <dael> TabAtkins: The one based on the older one.
# [04:46] <dael> fantasai: So let's remove that at the last moment before we publish. Keep it until right before publishing
# [04:46] <dael> fantasai: So people can find inconsistancies
# [04:46] <fantasai> fantasai:(which are indications that we screwed up somewhere)
# [04:46] <dael> RESOLVED: Publish Flex CR with the CR version of flex distribution algoithm
# [04:47] <dael> TabAtkins: And we're going to say no to the proposal of flex to PR since we know it isn't ready
# [04:47] <dael> plinss: What will it take?
# [04:47] <dael> TabAtkins: More tests.
# [04:47] <dael> plinss: Do we have a plan for getting there.
# [04:48] <dael> plh: When you say more tests, do you have an idea of what's needed?
# [04:48] <dael> TabAtkins: I haven't done a significant review, but I was told that there weren't enough
# [04:48] <dael> plh: It would be mice to have this somebody to tell us what needs to be tested
# [04:48] * Joins: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak)
# [04:48] <dael> plh: Sometimes people come to us asking about what tests to write and I can tell them to write tests for this and this in flex.
# [04:48] <dael> TabAtkins: Okay.
# [04:49] <dael> plinss: So you're taking that on?
# [04:49] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes
# [04:49] <dael> plinss: Do we have a test plan doc? It doesn't look like it
# [04:49] <dael> fantasai: If there aren't 1000 tests there aren't enough
# [04:49] <dael> dbaron: It looks like there's 400ish
# [04:49] <dael> TabAtkins: So we have half as many as we need.
# [04:49] <dael> fantasai: Likely more like a fourth
# [04:50] <dael> dbaron: I think some are relatively complicated tests.
# [04:50] <dael> dbaron: I'm curios about there being only one for flex lines
# [04:50] <fantasai> dbaron: which can pack a good bit in
# [04:50] <dael> astearns: When I last looked there were none for line
# [04:50] <dael> dbaron: It might be they're pointing to different sections
# [04:50] <dael> dbaron: We havea bunch pointing to baseline that are testing mulitple lines.
# [04:50] <dael> dbaron: Maybe not.
# [04:51] <dael> dbaron: If I look at the directory of rought tests, there's a subsantial number of commit messages for line, but none of them point to multi-line
# [04:51] <dael> TabAtkins: Okay.
# [04:51] <dael> dbaron: A bunch are for base line and there's a commit for rought tests for multi-line
# [04:52] <dael> TabAtkins: I was coaching someone through writing a bunch of multi-line tests in Japan. Maybe they weren're reviewed or just not pointing right.
# [04:52] <dael> plinss: Okay.
# [04:52] <dael> plinss: That's it on flexbox?
# [04:52] <dael> plinss: Chris isn't here, but should be, so let's start on CSSOM
# [04:53] <dael> dbaron: I just discovered that's a subdirectory that my import didn't contribute.
# [04:53] <dael> dbaron: Wait a minute. That's because it no longer exists. I don't know what happened to it.
# [04:53] <dael> zcorpan: State of CSSOM and CSSOM view
# [04:53] * Joins: kyounga (~kyounga@public.cloak)
# [04:54] <dael> zcorpan: The big items that need work in OM are serialization which is kinda broken in general. It doesn't do the right thing for short hands
# [04:54] <dael> zcorpan: I think it doesn't support all of the things the CSS supports
# [04:54] <dael> astearns: I think there was a prop to take the serialization rules for background and apply generally
# [04:54] <dael> TabAtkins: I think we discussed at previous F2F and I don't recall outcome
# [04:55] <dael> Rossen_: We discussed it in terms of shapes. If you find that discussion it'll help
# [04:55] <dael> zcorpan: If someone finds that file a bug?
# [04:55] <dael> dbaron: With the serialization there's like an introp between browsers with wierd variations and we don't want to break existing interop. We've done that in the past.
# [04:55] <dael> zcorpan: So we might have to make the spec property context senseitive
# [04:55] <dael> dbaron: It might depent.
# [04:56] <dael> dbaron: It's not to a point where I would trust the spec to change abrowser's behaviour
# [04:56] <dael> zcorpan: I wouldn't rec that.
# [04:56] <dael> zcorpan: If you have opinions about how it should work that would be helpful
# [04:56] <dael> dbaron: I have some general opinions. I think I've told you them before
# [04:56] <dael> zcorpan: Fine a bug, please, and write them down
# [04:56] <dael> zcorpan: Anything more on serialization?
# [04:57] <dael> glenn: Question on calc, is there serialization rules there?
# [04:57] <dael> TabAtkins: Nope. So there is a question, as we define new functional forms, should that be in each spec or central to CSSOM
# [04:57] <dael> zcorpan: No opinion
# [04:57] <dael> glenn: I think we should make that closer or you have to rewrite CSSOM every time
# [04:57] <dael> dbaron: But CSSOM can define useful things for that spec to reference
# [04:58] <dael> glaz: As far as I'm concerned the biggest problem is gradient and transform for serialization
# [04:58] <dael> glaz: That is probably the highest for me.
# [04:58] <dael> TabAtkins: And I defined it sometimes when I defined the spec.
# [04:58] <astearns> I believe the idea for serializing shorthands would be to use the rules I added for the <basic-shape> functions in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-shapes/#basic-shape-serialization (paragraph 1, not paragraph 2)
# [04:58] <dael> TabAtkins: I'ld like a general rule for properties even if we have to violate that for legacy
# [04:58] <dael> TabAtkins: I want to know what to do about serialization
# [04:59] <dael> hober: Even if there's a world with pattern A and pattern B and we can reference that
# [04:59] <dael> zcorpan: Style sheet loading is kinda broken. It doesn't say to force the stylesheet. it says load this and the stylesheet appears
# [04:59] <dael> TabAtkins: It should all be hookable
# [04:59] <dael> zcorpan: Likely nothing is preventing, I haven't had time to fix
# [05:00] <dael> zcorpan: There's also cross origan which might be some of it
# [05:00] <dael> TabAtkins: Do you have plans for constructable style sheet?
# [05:00] <dael> zcorpan: You can do that with insert rule. I have to write CSS syntax, but there are no constructors for each prop
# [05:00] <dael> TabAtkins: Stylesheet objects themself. I have things we discussed internally to make stylesheet handling easier, but I'll discuss on ML
# [05:01] <dael> glaz: document.creat-stylesheet or something?
# [05:01] <dael> TabAtkins: Something to have more explicit sharing.
# [05:01] <dael> zcorpan: Anything to add to stylesheet loading?
# [05:01] <dael> zcorpan: The open bug count is 31.
# [05:01] <astearns> logged a bug on serializing shorthands: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25822
# [05:01] <dael> zcorpan: From what I can tell the immediate impl interest is css.escape() and CSSOM values
# [05:02] <dael> zcorpan: TabAtkins had a proposal to make it better.
# [05:02] <dael> TabAtkins: JS value objects. That won't be another year or two and a good API isn't impl until we have that
# [05:02] <dael> zcorpan: A collegue was interested
# [05:03] <dael> glaz: I am too. I'm not sure it's the right direction, but it's something I wanted to us. For css valeus outside of JS.
# [05:03] <dael> zcorpan: Are people looking to impl other parts?
# [05:03] <dael> zcorpan:css.escape lets you take a string and have the value escape parts of a selector or a string that goes into content that you can use in insert group
# [05:03] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [05:03] <dael> dbaron: A lot of CSSOM is in DOM level style and already impl
# [05:04] <dael> plh: I see this was pub in last Dec. Have there been sub updates that make this out of date?
# [05:04] <dael> zcorpan: Not too much. I added the dsahed prop things.
# [05:04] <dael> TabAtkins: For custom?
# [05:04] <dael> zcorpan: No, not custom properties. I think it's CSS style declaration? We investigated dropping and the usage was too high
# [05:04] <TabAtkins> el.style['background-image']
# [05:05] <dael> zcorpan: There were other minor changes, but not much has happened
# [05:05] <dael> zcorpan: I plan to do more on this after the summer
# [05:05] <dael> zcorpan: CSSOM View spec
# [05:05] <dael> zcorpan: There's an open issue on how things should behave for right or left.
# [05:05] <dael> zcorpan: The spec has right now something no one wants to impl
# [05:06] <dael> zcorpan: Microsoft or IE has logical behaviour for some things, but not all
# [05:06] <dael> zcorpan: Firefox uses phsyical behaviour for all the things
# [05:06] <dael> zcorpan: So it's more consistant and understandable and in like with how positioning works if you look at abspos
# [05:06] <dael> zcorpan: So I'm inclined to match Firefox in the spec
# [05:07] <dael> Rossen_: What's the example?
# [05:07] <dael> zcorpan: [white board]
# [05:08] <dael> zcorpan: Let's say this document is right to left and you have a case of a smaller viewport than canvas and you ask for
# [05:09] <dael> zcorpan: it to scroll left on the document element
# [05:09] <dael> zcorpan: Firefox is the top left point of the viewport is origan.
# [05:10] <dael> zcorpan: and right is the positive axis so greater values are on the right
# [05:10] <dael> zcorpan: If you scroll to the lef tyou get negative
# [05:10] <dael> zcorpan: IE has the same origan but the axis is int he other orientation
# [05:10] <dael> zcorpan: This is the same as how top and left work in CSS
# [05:11] <dael> zcorpan: It's also how the coordinates work in I think all browsers and also some properties. I don't remember exactly which
# [05:11] <dael> zcorpan: There's messages in the ML
# [05:11] <dael> fantasai: If I was going to do this over I'd move the origan to the other side, but if that's inconcstant with how other coordinate systems work than that's not helpful
# [05:11] <dael> zcorpan: And t's not clear to me that mouse corrdinates can be changed to the IE model. That seems risky and might break websites
# [05:12] <dael> zcorpan: So I don't think we can switch to IE across the board
# [05:12] <dael> fantasai: Where is the IE original
# [05:12] <dael> zcorpan: I think the same
# [05:12] <fantasai> s/original/origin/
# [05:12] <dael> Rossen_: Did you try with regular scroll? Viewports tend to be inconsistant
# [05:12] <fantasai> rossen thinks it's the top right corner
# [05:12] <dael> zcorpan: We need to spec both and it would be nice to be consistant
# [05:13] <dael> zcorpan: My q is if microsoft is willing to change or if Firefox is willing to change
# [05:13] <dael> dbaron: Did you test chrome or webkit?
# [05:13] <dael> zcorpan: That's more insane. Chome is close to Friefow, but there's a prop that put the origan on the canvas instead of the viewport.
# [05:13] <dael> zcorpan: What's what I tried to do in the spec but it wasn't happy
# [05:14] <dael> fantasai: The problem with the origin being in the middle is you're just floating out there.
# [05:14] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [05:14] <dael> dbaron: And it's nice to have your original scroll be scroll left of zero
# [05:14] <dbaron> whiteboard drawing: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2014May/att-0007/dsc06430-zcorpan-whiteboard.jpg
# [05:14] <dael> fantasai: I feel sorry for anyone programming with scrollers because they're all insane
# [05:14] <dael> zcorpan: I agree, but we need to pick
# [05:14] <fantasai> s/with/RTL with/
# [05:14] <dael> zcorpan: My pref for Firefox is that it makes it easier to work with abspos
# [05:15] <dael> zcorpan: If you want to position and element where you click, it can set top and left to whatever corrdinates instead of trying to transform from other origian
# [05:15] <dael> fantasai: I think mouse and click should use same coordinates. If there's introp on mouse we should copy that.
# [05:16] <fantasai> s/click/scrolling/
# [05:16] <dael> zcorpan: Should I move on or do people want to resolve or should I spec this behaviour and see what happens?
# [05:16] <dael> zcorpan: Opinions?
# [05:16] <dael> TabAtkins: I have none.
# [05:16] <dael> glaz: I think it's good to spec and ask for review
# [05:16] <dael> glaz: anyone obj to zcorpan specifying this
# [05:17] <dael> action zcorpan to specify handling of positioning and ask for review
# [05:17] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [05:17] <trackbot> Error finding 'zcorpan'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
# [05:17] <dael> zcorpan: GeometryUtils is a new API that lets ou get coord and dimensions from boxes after transformation so you can get...
# [05:18] <dael> zcorpan: For instance and shape with these four points instead of getting the bounding box
# [05:18] <dael> zcorpan: How this works is just a big red box in the spec, but I think Firefox shipped an impl
# [05:18] <dael> zcorpan: So now I can reverse engineer
# [05:18] <dael> fantasai: We worked on this?
# [05:18] <dael> TabAtkins: Roc did
# [05:18] <fantasai> s/We/Who/
# [05:18] <dael> zcorpan: The idea is in the spec, just not the semantics
# [05:19] <dbaron> TabAtkins: and did a lot on the mailing list
# [05:19] <hober> s/idea/IDL/
# [05:19] <dael> zcorpan: So that needs spec work. Any questions on this?
# [05:19] <dael> zcorpan: Any questions?
# [05:19] <dael> zcorpan: At some point I should revamp the overall model of CSSOM View does it's thing because right now it's too hand-wavy
# [05:19] <dael> zcorpan: Part of the problem is the specs themselves are hand-wavy and there's no foundation to build on
# [05:20] <dael> zcorpan: It's not speced how to make a render tree and how to make boxes from it, it's just desc how the end result should be
# [05:20] <dael> TabAtkins: We need a render tree desc and a desc of hos div detection works.
# [05:20] <dael> zcorpan: So it's an issue that needs to be fixed.
# [05:21] <dael> zcorpan: Part of the model problem is the CSSOM specs are unclear about when things happen. When you resize the viewwort, when do we fire the change. What
# [05:21] <dael> zcorpan: What's the order?
# [05:21] <dael> zcorpan: It jsut says when it happens you do both. THat needs to be better defined.
# [05:21] <dael> zcorpan: So we can test and get interop
# [05:21] <dael> zcorpan: Any more points on the model?
# [05:22] <dael> zcorpan: So impl interests that I can think of is sub-pixel position which is basically double return values
# [05:22] <hober> FYI, WebKit changed Element.offset*/client*/scroll* to return doubles last week in http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/168868
# [05:22] <dael> hober: Which we did five days ago
# [05:22] <dael> zcorpan: And blink is working on impl and Opera. IE does have it for something things and for some things if you opt-in
# [05:23] <dael> zcorpan: So there is some compat concerns around this. I think Firefox tried and had to revert because sites broke, but I'm not sure if that's still an issue. It's unclear
# [05:23] <dael> zcorpan: I guess we'll find out from webkit and blink
# [05:24] <dael> hober: I think Roc raised a case where it was banging strings together to make a class name and when it changed from 0 to 0.0 the selector took on a very different unit
# [05:24] <dael> zcorpan: Was it 0.0 or 0.01?
# [05:24] <dael> hober: Doesn't matter.
# [05:24] <dael> hober: If we had CSS escape years ago...
# [05:25] <dael> dbaron: A lot of these APIs don't account for features on the web. How much is it worth evolving to account for some of these things. That's part of between get.box.quads where it acocunts for transforms.
# [05:25] <TabAtkins> ".foo" + size changing from yielding ".foo0" (valid selector) to ".foo0.0" (invalid).
# [05:25] <dael> zcorpan: The arguement where people are interesting in impl they say that doing this would result in a better user experience for existing aps
# [05:25] <dael> zcorpan: They use offset top and scroll top and you'd have a smoother scroll
# [05:25] <dael> zcorpan: WE can always do new APIs that do transforms
# [05:26] <dael> dbaron: I think on this one we'll let you take compat risk first.
# [05:26] <dbaron> (We take compat risk first plenty of the time!)
# [05:26] <dael> Rossen_: Our experience with this, there was a discussion I'm not sure if it make it to ML
# [05:26] <dael> Rossen_: We tried that, enabling all of the CSSOM controls in floating points and we have massive compat issues
# [05:27] <dael> Rossen_: At the time, that was IE9, most of the content is relying on interger math and as soon as we produced floats we had massive breakage
# [05:27] * Joins: SteveZ (~SteveZ@public.cloak)
# [05:27] * Quits: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [05:27] <dael> Rossen_: asp.net servers started choking on mouse events with form submissions. I don't remember the issue, but we had to turn off the mouse events floating point because of the server being unable to handle
# [05:28] <dael> zcorpan: Do you have alist of APIs?
# [05:28] <dael> rossen: We support something for all the APIs if you turn them on. That's why they're not on by default. The only one that is was the one shipped by Firefox. Everything else is optional
# [05:28] <dael> rossen: A list of spec APIs that are breaking stuff, we don't have
# [05:28] <hober> s/spec APIs/specific APIs/
# [05:29] <dael> ...: It would be easy to browse and observe breakage
# [05:29] <dael> zcorpan: So assuming we find it's not compat for Webkit and Blink would you prefer opt-in like IE or new prop?
# [05:29] <dael> zcorpan: Some people don't like opt-in since different scripts can use both and generally people have a distast for document-wide switches
# [05:30] * hober function() { "use subpixel"; ... } /* ugh */
# [05:30] <dael> rossen: Then you end up with mixed content where hald if float and half is int
# [05:30] <dael> dbaron: But if you have one library that expects on and a diff library looking for another, you don't want to have to rewrite a library so I'd be happier with two prop
# [05:30] <dael> zcorpan: I agree. Would IE be okay with that direction
# [05:30] * liam dropping off for a bit, will be back for css line layout this afternoon (about an hour and a half from now??)
# [05:30] <dael> rossen: I don't see why we'd be unhappy
# [05:31] <dael> rossen: I fact most of the window 8 stope app are using it as on by default
# [05:31] <dael> plinss: But there's no need to standarize
# [05:31] <dael> zcorpan: Do you know if people are using it on public web?
# [05:31] <dael> rossen: I don't know but I can find out
# [05:32] <dael> plinss: This ties into a later topic but I think that all these APIs are broken so I'm relucatant to add new ones. I'd rather a proper box model and put the good APIs on that
# [05:32] <dael> zcorpan: So you don't want a fix soon, you want to wait on the better API
# [05:32] * Joins: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak)
# [05:32] * astearns liam: an hour and a half is probably a good estimate
# [05:32] * liam thanks
# [05:32] <dael> plinss: I want both. I want the better API soon. In general I don't wan to spend too much time fixing presentational API on the DOM, I want to get a proper API. I want to expose the box tree and have APIs that work on that
# [05:33] <dael> dbaron: One point of order, do we have something from 1pm to 2pm that has to go in that slot b/c if so we need to break
# [05:33] <dael> zcorpan: Should I continue after lunch? I'm almost done.
# [05:34] <dael> zcorpan: The other thing I've seen interest in is smooth scrolling that's a new thing and lets scripts opt into letting the user agent do a smooth transition when the script scrolls or you nav to an item.
# [05:34] <dael> glaz: It's to enable/disable smooth scrolling, or it's to spec it will scroll
# [05:34] <dael> zcorpan: You enable a point that you're scroll to. this is an opt-in to scroll to this point but smoothly
# [05:34] <dael> dbaron: Is the scrool behaviour or something else?
# [05:35] <dael> zcorpan: Two things. There's scroll behaviour that lets you opt in and there's a dictionary you can spec when envoking scroll API
# [05:35] <dael> dbaron: I like the dictionary, I'm not sure about scroll behaviour as a prop
# [05:35] * krit glazou can you send a new link for the Webinar? The one from yesterday is no longer valid
# [05:35] <dael> zcorpan: Can you elaborate in an e-mail?
# [05:35] <dael> dbaron: Okay.
# [05:35] <glazou> krit: see in the info for this channel
# [05:35] <dael> zcorpan: And then there's GeometryUnits. I'm not sure if other browsers want to impl immediatly. That's all I have
# [05:36] * krit glazou ahh, thanks
# [05:36] <glazou> krit: but we're about to break for lunch
# [05:36] <dael> glenn: Since the DOM 4 was moved to HTML and CSSOM is important to HTML 5, has anyone thought to move this to HTML since API is a big priority.
# [05:36] <krit> glazou: please don't speak about inline between 2PM and 3:30PM
# [05:36] <dael> plh: I don't think it's a good idea. CSSOM has been the hot potato and it needs to be done.
# [05:37] <dael> hober: zcorpan is here are doing the work so let's do it here.
# [05:37] <dael> zcorpan: I don't have an opinion
# [05:37] <glazou> krit: k
# [05:37] <dael> plh: I think this group is the right one. You guys know the complexities. I think the dependency plan is to say CSS isn't in rec, but lets face it, it was part of DOM 3 and there aren't any major details changing.
# [05:38] <dael> plh: Plan is to say it's not a rec and that's fine.
# [05:38] <dael> zcorpan: Okay. Lunch?
# [05:38] <dael> [break = lunch]
# [05:38] * Quits: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak) (adenilson)
# [05:38] * krit when are you back?
# [05:38] * Quits: dael (~dael@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [05:38] * Joins: dael (~dael@public.cloak)
# [05:39] <dael> krit - Supposed to be 1:30 Seoul time
# [05:39] * krit dael thanks
# [05:39] * Quits: dael (~dael@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [05:42] * Quits: jh_ (~jh_@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [05:42] * Quits: kyounga (~kyounga@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [05:43] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [05:46] * Quits: murakami (~murakami@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [05:46] * Quits: andrey (~andrey@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [05:48] * Quits: koji (~koji@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [06:00] * Joins: yamamoto (~yamamoto@public.cloak)
# [06:07] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
# [06:08] * Quits: Dong-Young_Lee (~Dong-Young_Lee@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [06:18] * Joins: dael (~dael@public.cloak)
# [06:18] * Joins: shou (~shou@public.cloak)
# [06:20] * Joins: murakami (~murakami@public.cloak)
# [06:22] * Joins: jh_ (~jh_@public.cloak)
# [06:22] * Parts: shou (~shou@public.cloak)
# [06:23] * Joins: andrey (~andrey@public.cloak)
# [06:23] * Joins: harayama (~harayama@public.cloak)
# [06:27] * Joins: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak)
# [06:29] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
# [06:29] <SteveZ> What happend to the webinar?
# [06:29] <krit> SteveZ: you need to register everyday
# [06:29] * krit SteveZ https://attendee.gotowebinar.com/register/7197759715728627714
# [06:29] * krit glazou can you unmute me please?
# [06:30] <krit> Also, I am here for another hour from now. Maybe we can start with CSS inline but move drop caps at the end of the inline discussion?
# [06:31] * krit is confident in the others to solve this problem without him
# [06:31] <dael> Attendees: Glenn Adams, Rossen Atanassov, Tab Atkins, David Baron, Adenilson Cavalcanti, Dave Cramer, Bruno de Oliveira Abinader, Elika Etemad, Daniel Glazman, Dongwoo Joshua Im, Koji Ishii, Dael Jackson, Philippe Le Hégaret, Chris Lilley (afternoon), Peter Linss, Shinyu Murakami, Edward O'Connor, Simon Pieters, Andrey Rybka, Alan Stearns, Shane Stephens, Jet Villegas + 5 observers
# [06:31] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak) ("")
# [06:32] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak)
# [06:32] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak) ("")
# [06:33] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [06:33] <dael> On the phone/webinar: Liam, Krit, SteveZ, Bert (dael - check this at the end of the day)
# [06:33] * krit I was dropped of
# [06:33] <SteveZ> webinar is not working - it ended and no sound
# [06:33] * krit "The webinar ended"
# [06:35] * krit strange: "Tue, May 20, 2014 9:20 PM - Wed, May 21, 2014 6:00 PM KST"
# [06:35] * krit looks like the time is not correct
# [06:36] * Joins: koji (~koji@public.cloak)
# [06:38] <dael> plinss: Next topic is line layout
# [06:39] <dael> glaz: We have a message from krit about timing.
# [06:39] * Joins: glenn (~glenn@public.cloak)
# [06:39] <dael> plinss: He's here for another hour it says.
# [06:39] * Joins: clilley (~clilley@public.cloak)
# [06:39] * Joins: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak)
# [06:39] <dael> dauwhe: It says something about moving drop caps.
# [06:39] <glazou> people on webinar, please rejoin
# [06:39] <dael> fantasai: Is box align on the agenda?
# [06:39] <dael> plinss: Yes.
# [06:39] <glazou> webinar was stopped at some point
# [06:39] <dael> fantasai: I don't know if SteveZ put it on his list, but he should be there.
# [06:39] * SteveZ webinar has stopped working so those of us who want to participate cannot
# [06:40] <dael> fantasai: We should combine the topics about baselines
# [06:40] * krit SteveZ works again
# [06:40] <glazou> SteveZ: yes, reconnect please
# [06:40] * clilley steve, leaving and rejoining seems to work
# [06:40] <dael> plinss: Line layout
# [06:40] <dael> fantasai: Okay.
# [06:40] <glazou> SteveZ: URL in the channel info
# [06:41] <dael> fantasai: I guess, let me use the projector
# [06:41] <glazou> you're in
# [06:41] <dael> krit: I'm here for the next 50 min and I'm not sure how long the fantasai presentation would be but I'd like to discuss parts
# [06:41] <dael> fantasai: Let's go over what you want to go over.
# [06:41] <dael> krit: I'll wait for SteveZ
# [06:41] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-inline/
# [06:41] * SteveZ Steve is here
# [06:41] <dael> glaz: He's there
# [06:42] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak)
# [06:42] <dael> krit: SVG has the spec on a rec and they'd like to reference CSS spec instead.
# [06:42] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
# [06:42] <dael> krit: esp since the prop are in SVG
# [06:42] <dael> krit: WE want to be in CR for SVG2 by the end of the year and it would great if line layout could process within the year
# [06:42] <dael> fantasai: I don't htink that's realistic for inline layout
# [06:43] <dael> krit: We have the SVG interest and can do changes in SVG
# [06:43] * dbaron is having trouble understanding krit
# [06:43] <dael> fantasai: That might be more doable
# [06:43] <dael> fantasai: I think the baselines can get in order, but there's a whole section on general layout that needs to be cleaned and I don't think we can get the whole thing together in time
# [06:43] <dael> fantasai: Best option might be to update SVG specs with tweeks
# [06:44] <dael> krit: I think the baseline is SVG I think we can reference the CSS as much as possible and if we could publish baseline that would be great
# [06:44] <dael> clilley: SVG doesn't need dropcaps. People don't want this stuff in SVG. We got feedback saying why are you doing this in SVG when you can reference CSS
# [06:44] <dael> fantasai: So let's pull up the SVG spec. It's SVG 1.1?
# [06:45] <dael> clilley: 2 is what we want to do it in, but it's mostly the same content.
# [06:45] <dael> fantasai: The interesting section is 10.10.5
# [06:45] <krit> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/text.html#DominantBaselineProperty for reference
# [06:45] <dael> fantasai: So that seems reasonable as a resolution. We need to make sure dominant baseline is independant of other prop.
# [06:45] <dael> fantasai: Vertical align I think was suggested to be a shortcut
# [06:46] <krit> 10.9 Alignment properties
# [06:46] <dael> dbaron: There's a bunch of things that happen XFLO published a shorthand for a bunch or proerties. SVG 1.0 had, around the same time alignment, baseline, and baseline shift, but didn't mention as sub properties of vertical align
# [06:46] <dauwhe> s/XLFO/XSLFO/
# [06:47] <dael> dbaron: Acnient CSS propsed doing the same thing. I don't think alignment, baseline, and baseline shift don't make sense except as sub properties
# [06:47] <dael> clilley: Why does that affect the validity?
# [06:47] <dael> fantasai: Because you have two things doing the same thing.
# [06:47] <dael> dbaron: If one isn't a shorthand, you have two things setting the same thing and you don't know what to pay attention to
# [06:47] <dael> clilley: Okay
# [06:47] <dael> dbaron: Browsers haven't impl so there's a bit of compat risk
# [06:48] <dael> clilley: What would you say is the best path forward?
# [06:48] <dael> fantasai: Given your timeline we should work in SVG 2 to specify that alignment baseline and baseline is a longhand and that dominant baseline is something else.
# [06:49] <dael> fantasai: I think that we should generally include this in our review of what we're doing and work with SVG spec for now
# [06:49] <dael> clilley: So SVG gets edited and later it gets pulled out
# [06:49] <dael> fantasai: So we'll sync this to the old version and merge so that it makes sense.
# [06:49] <dael> fantasai: That gets us to a resonable place.
# [06:49] <dael> clilley: That sounds reasonable to me. krit?
# [06:49] <dael> krit: Sounds reasonable
# [06:49] <dael> fantasai: So whoever is editing this should pull in vertical align and put it in this section
# [06:50] <dael> clilley: Can you send an e-mail saying what you just said?
# [06:50] <dael> fantasai: Yes. I haven't done a prose review
# [06:50] <dael> krit: I'd like to know what's in CSS inline since we have the SVG spec moving forward.
# [06:50] <zcorpan> s/origan/origin/g
# [06:50] <dael> krit: Okay.
# [06:51] <dael> krit: Can we move to the next topic?
# [06:51] <dael> fantasai:The entire inline box definition needs to be cleaned up, but that's a matter of digging through the trash.
# [06:51] * SteveZ it is very hard to understand what fantasai is saying
# [06:51] <dael> fantasai: What needs to be changed is the vertical align stuff going into SVG 2
# [06:51] * SteveZ that helped!!
# [06:52] * glazou LOST HIS RIGHT EAR BECAUSE OF FANTASAI
# [06:52] <dael> fantasai: The state of this draft is it's a mess and I don't know what needs to be cleaned so if anyone has info on that let me know. It's into logical sections. One is how to determine the height of the line.
# [06:52] * plinss https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2Q0cyJSs04
# [06:52] <dael> fantasai: Baseline alignment section is where we have a lot of prop that needs to be trimmed to what's in SVG 2 unless someone thinks there's something important
# [06:53] <dael> fantasai: There's a drop cap section and I'd suggest that dauwhe speaks on that.
# [06:53] <dael> astearns: Before drop caps there was an additional issue about fallback for data taht wasn't present.
# [06:53] <SteveZ> I think all the properties are important if you want to align images to text
# [06:53] <zcorpan> s/force the stylesheet/parse the stylesheet/
# [06:54] <dbaron> http://dauwhe.github.io/dropcaps/Overview.html was the link in the agenda
# [06:54] <fantasai> [INSERT SLIDES LINK HERE]
# [06:54] <dael> [there's slides with no URL to illistrate]
# [06:54] <dael> krit: Can you holdback with drop caps?
# [06:54] <fantasai> ACTION dauwhe post slides to www-archive
# [06:54] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [06:54] <trackbot> Created ACTION-630 - Post slides to www-archive [on Dave Cramer - due 2014-05-27].
# [06:54] <dael> clilley: What do you mean?
# [06:55] <dael> krit: I'd like to do baseline properties. They require metrics and this would need to be present for impl. Spec says that if they're available they should be used, but it doesn't say how.
# [06:55] <dael> clilley: There are reasonable heuristics that we should spec because it's not that hard.
# [06:55] <dael> astearns: So the plan is to put the reasonable stuff into SVG?
# [06:55] <dael> clilley: Yes. For now.
# [06:56] <dbaron> this is about what to do if a font doesn't have metrics for, e.g., the ideographic baseline
# [06:56] <SteveZ> The heuristics are actually specified (but not quite correctly) in the XSL-FO document
# [06:56] <SteveZ> See section 6.6.8 of XSL-FO 1.1
# [06:56] <dael> clilley: I recall seeing in the last 6 months were ideographic baseline is less than half or something that gave reasonable fallback. I think it was on the style ML
# [06:56] <zcorpan> s/div detection/hit detection/
# [06:57] <clilley> steve, do you have a list of what is not quite correct
# [06:57] <dael> krit: For the heuristics I think webkit and SVG are spec'ed. Steve was talking about if they're reasonable heuristics I don't care if we use XFMLO or other heuristics, but I think we should spec them.
# [06:57] * dbaron is relying on the minutes to understand what krit is saying, although doesn't quite understand how dael is hearing so much better
# [06:57] <SteveZ> I am working on tracking down good values for the heuristics
# [06:57] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [06:57] <dael> clilley: The heuristics don't have anything to do with them, they jsut need to be in that spec.
# [06:59] * liam reconnecting
# [06:59] * SteveZ If you are on the webinar, krit comes in very clear; much clearer than those of you in the room
# [06:59] <dael> krit: XFLMFO already spec some heuristics and because these Steve is suggesting that he tries to figure out heuristics that we can use so we should spec which one we use.
# [06:59] <SteveZ> The ascender and descender values
# [06:59] <fantasai> Summary of vertical-align plan: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014May/0208.html
# [06:59] <dael> clilley: I saw one in IRC that SteveZ said some are wrong. Do you have a list on which bits?
# [06:59] <dael> krit: I can work with SteveZ to figure that out
# [06:59] <SteveZ> I still need to track down values for hanging baseline
# [06:59] <clilley> is that typographic ascender instead of os/2 windows ascender descender?
# [07:00] * fantasai thinks Dael has a decipher-staticky-telephone-voices superpower
# [07:00] <SteveZ> As you may know, Adobe prefers the use sTypeAscender in the OS/2 table
# [07:00] <dael> clilley: So is that topic done? Sounds like we have an acion on SteveZ to produce baseline stuff?
# [07:00] <SteveZ> Steve accepts the action item
# [07:00] <dael> krit: Yep.
# [07:01] <dael> action SteveZ work on the baseline stuff
# [07:01] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [07:01] <trackbot> Created ACTION-631 - Work on the baseline stuff [on Steve Zilles - due 2014-05-27].
# [07:01] <dael> dauwhe: The first issue about drop caps is what to call them. We can worry about that later.
# [07:01] <dael> ...: Alignment is broken on the web. I've collected examples from tutorials.
# [07:01] <dael> astearns: Initial letter doesn't work.
# [07:01] * SteveZ speak loudly please!
# [07:02] <fantasai> s/astearns/glenn/
# [07:02] <dael> dauwhe: That's pretty straight forward, we'll just eliminate every option.
# [07:02] * liam connected, sees scrolback "XFMLO" and wonders if thats meant to be XSL-FO
# [07:02] <fantasai> s/work/work for ideographic/
# [07:02] <fantasai> fantasai: CJK characters are letters according to Unicode
# [07:02] * krit liam it does
# [07:02] <fantasai> fantasai: So we're good
# [07:02] <liam> s/XFMLO/XSL-FO/g
# [07:02] <dael> ...: What people do today is float them. This is a 3 line drop cap and you just use trial and error
# [07:02] <dael> ...: The half line of the large letter is controling the verical
# [07:02] <dael> clilley: Can you use calc?
# [07:03] <dael> dauwhe: Calc would need to know the ratio of the font size.
# [07:03] <dael> ...: If I switch the font, it doesn't work any more.
# [07:03] <dael> ...: Most pub switch drop caps to be raised caps because it looks too bad.
# [07:03] * glazou muting you krit and SteveZ let me know if you want to be umuted
# [07:03] * astearns so we should just standardize on Adobe Garamond for all text on the web. it's a good font
# [07:03] <dael> ...: What should happen in a drop cap would be the top line aligns with the top of the cap
# [07:04] <SteveZ> And has been pointed out in the e-mail thread, you want to size the the base character in a composite glyph combination
# [07:04] <dael> clilley: So for actions it jsut stick up but for decenders?
# [07:04] <dael> dauwhe: We get to that. So we still align witht he top line of text. A lot of this is b/c you want consistancy and if you scale down for the accent the size would vary wildly as you move.
# [07:04] * SteveZ Dave is not understandable!
# [07:04] <dael> ...: so as the simpliest proposal, inital letters are defined by how many lines they occupy
# [07:05] <dael> ...: The initial uses the drop inital porpery. If it's 1 nothing happens, if it's more than 1 you get to drop. It can't be negative and must be an int.
# [07:05] <dael> TabAtkins: Will this only be allowed on first letter pseudo?
# [07:05] <liam> [note: Hebrew uses "drop words" at the start of paragraphs]
# [07:06] * glazou SteveZ added a portable microphone
# [07:06] <dael> dauwhe: I'd like to be able to apply this to element partly because there's questions about if there's a starting punctuation it gets inc in the drop initial so you may need two elements.
# [07:06] * glazou is it better ?
# [07:06] <dael> TabAtkins: So it's display line element
# [07:06] * SteveZ that has helped
# [07:06] * glazou ok, cool
# [07:06] <dael> dauwhe: Only if it has a value over one it should display
# [07:06] * liam yes, much better
# [07:06] <dael> TabAtkins: So only on floated elements?
# [07:06] <dael> fantasai: You don't want a random word that can drop down.
# [07:06] <dael> TabAtkins: To do it properly you need shapes to flow around.
# [07:07] <dael> dauwhe: There's lots of things that we do that can create visual disasters
# [07:07] <dael> dbaron: But we don't want to implement those disasters
# [07:07] <liam> [some designs do have a word before the dropped initial, this is neither difficult to implement nor bad; the hard thing is the runaround but we already have those proposed]
# [07:07] <dael> fantasai: We can say it's only first letter
# [07:07] <dael> TabAtkins: I think more than first is useful like drop word.
# [07:07] <dael> dauwhe: I've heard of word usecases, but haven't seen any.
# [07:07] * liam can't unmute
# [07:07] <dael> fantasai: It would have to be the first element in the block.
# [07:08] <dael> TabAtkins: If you req floats it doesn't matter. It's a sizing thing,
# [07:08] <dael> fantasai: The float can be an entire table
# [07:08] <clilley> s/for actions/for accents/
# [07:08] <liam> [drop words - best known example is hebrew, esp in religious contexts]
# [07:08] <dael> TabAtkins: Basic case is just sizing to the line grid.
# [07:08] * glazou I also increased polycom's input
# [07:08] <dael> hober: That brings up the point, what does this require of the paragraph you're in?
# [07:08] * liam tx, yes, it's much clearer now
# [07:08] <SteveZ> Floats will not work because the cannot appear higher than the line from which they are called out
# [07:08] <dael> dauwhe: You can get into trouble of other inline elements of various heights.
# [07:08] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [07:09] <dael> ...: At least in the context we want to use these I'd love to be able to say you have to have fixed line height
# [07:09] <dael> TabAtkins: You only have fixed if you use line grid
# [07:09] <dael> clilley: liam points out in IRC that there is uses for drop words
# [07:09] <dael> dauwhe: So skipping the how to select issue, the rules are capline alignment, and baseline alignment. There's fonts where the capitals have decenders so that it goes below the baseline
# [07:10] <dael> clilley: It seems that could be fixed with a prop that allows extra lines underneath. Another that says how much I'll alow under if needed.
# [07:10] <dael> plinss: It's the if needed that's the problem.
# [07:10] <dael> dauwhe: Another approach is to define the bottom alignment as being different than alphabetic base
# [07:11] <dael> clilley: It seems like you want them to all have the same number of lines from cap height to base heigth.
# [07:11] <dael> dauwhe: This is inDesigns impl of drap caps with this check box that says scale for decenders.
# [07:11] <fantasai> wondering if what you want is for all the drop-caps in the book to be e.g. 3 lines tall, and if the glyph falls below, to wrap around it (shapes)
# [07:11] <dael> clilley: So there's only make it smaller?
# [07:11] <dael> dauwhe: Yes.
# [07:11] <dael> ...: So I checked that and it scaled to use the bottom of the decender
# [07:12] <dael> TabAtkins: It does look good for J, but I image it would look odd in other cases
# [07:12] <dael> dauwhe: Yes. There isn't a good solution. We can't solve all the design problems.
# [07:12] <dael> hober: I think the c is a good example, though.
# [07:12] <liam> +1 to use baseline
# [07:12] <dael> plinss: Why isn't this an exlcusions problem
# [07:12] * liam q+ tnote about multiple visible drop caps on a spread
# [07:13] <dael> hober: If you do exlusions do you need a property? We don't want a second prop to get it to the default we want
# [07:13] <dael> TabAtkins: You want the main drop cap to be the leading with the heigth. You'd want to exclude accoring to shape
# [07:13] <dael> plinss: That should be opt in.
# [07:13] <SteveZ> I sent an example earlier today that highlights a number of the concerns you eventually want to resolve it is in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014May/0205.html
# [07:13] <dael> plinss: You want to follow the whole outline or be square.
# [07:14] <dael> TabAtkins: So if you have a odd extra swishy tail you'd want to wrap around.
# [07:14] <dael> liam: If you have several large initials on a double page spred and some have decendors or accents or don't and you clearly want the base to be the same size.
# [07:14] <dael> liam: That's why you don't want the automatic to account for the J.
# [07:15] <dael> dauwhe: I think the exlusion solution addresses taht issue so all the letters will be the same size
# [07:15] * clilley action astearns patch indesign to allow other options beyond scaling with descenders
# [07:15] <dael> liam: But you have to treat differently when the drop cap is just a big rectangle such as with fonts that don't give that information. Also treating the glyph as an image
# [07:15] <dael> hober: I want that asa value for shape outside
# [07:15] <dael> dauwhe: I what that too
# [07:16] <dael> liam: There's example on that blog I sent to the list
# [07:16] * liam mutes again
# [07:16] <dael> dauwhe: The ED of inline has 6 prop for this most of which have large numbers of poss values.
# [07:16] * SteveZ it would be useful to have the slides sent before the discussion for us not in the room
# [07:16] <dael> dauwhe: This is a sunken cap. The drop is the same as a 3 line, but it drops 2 and goes up 1 so the spec prop drop inital size prop that defaults to auto.
# [07:16] * liam notes the "nd" should be close to the A here really because it's the same word
# [07:16] <dael> ...: Normally user agent figures out the height
# [07:17] <dael> hober: So in this case I'd have to do math, so why not instead have a drop shorthand and it might be for both how far you drop and how big you are
# [07:17] <dael> dauwhe: It was proposed that you could take number or percent
# [07:17] <dael> hober: My option is limiting in that it only takes ints.
# [07:17] <dbaron> dauwhe: I'd support that.
# [07:18] * liam wonders if Hachette published the Twilight books :)
# [07:18] <dael> hober: We're forcing into simplified model which is the point
# [07:18] <dael> TabAtkins: That way they don't force themselves out of a good model. Do you have examples where it would be different?
# [07:18] <liam> [NO not just saving effort - you can't do drop caps right now with CSS without this sort of stuff]
# [07:18] <dael> dauwhe: no
# [07:18] * SteveZ can you unmute me
# [07:18] * astearns liam: yes, they did
# [07:18] <dael> hober: Here's an inverned example I style to have drop cap and later replce for illuminated and I want drop caps to be the same size as the illuminated
# [07:19] <dael> plinss: Even than you'd want to scale
# [07:19] <dael> fantasai: Use SVG!
# [07:19] <dael> hober: I agree.
# [07:19] * liam astearns thanks
# [07:19] <krit> fantasai: +1
# [07:19] * krit heard SVG
# [07:19] <dael> glaz: SteveZ posed a use case. Would you're prop allow that?
# [07:19] <dael> hober: The ex provides how big, how far down, and how big to exclude.
# [07:19] <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014May/att-0205/InitialCap_from_MeetingGod-StephenHuyler-HinduPractice-selectedPages-2.jpg
# [07:19] <TabAtkins> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014May/att-0205/InitialCap_from_MeetingGod-StephenHuyler-HinduPractice-selectedPages-2.jpg
# [07:19] * clilley T is for Twilight, by dropcap (seriously) https://soundcloud.com/dropcap/t-is-for-twilight
# [07:19] <fantasai> s/good model/good model (line grid)/
# [07:20] <dael> dauwhe: hober I like that idea
# [07:20] <liam> [ http://barefootliam.blogspot.ca/2014/05/using-images-as-initial-drop-caps.html shows alignment points for an image (illuminated!) used as an initial cap ]
# [07:20] <dael> SteveZ: Basically in that posting I identified 8 aspectst aht you need to do that or related ex that were posted by liam
# [07:20] <dael> SteveZ: They're on the blog
# [07:21] <dael> SteveZ: You need to know the bottom alignment and the size, but you also need tings like how it interacts with text indent so the letter can fold into the marging and you need to know if there's kerning into the line like in this ex.
# [07:21] <dael> SteveZ: As people have observed there's a need to allow shapes to apply to the letter
# [07:22] <dael> SteveZ: And if there's an exclusion or not so if you get a square shape or follow the outline - if the character will be overlayed
# [07:22] <dael> SteveZ: There's a fair amount of baggage, some of which is already there, just to do that example
# [07:22] <dael> hober: I'm scared of trying to provide n knobs for this really awesome case here. This can have 2 or 3 knobs that get you mostly there.
# [07:22] <clilley> drop caps in scribus http://wiki.scribus.net/canvas/Advanced_Drop_Caps
# [07:23] <dael> SteveZ: I agree. I was trying to outline what you need to cover. I think in this case shape would do fine.
# [07:23] <dael> plinss: If you look carefully, the indent on the 1st line is to the tangent of the right spot
# [07:23] <dael> TabAtkins: It's shaped
# [07:23] * liam notes that page has some truly awful examples in HTML, clilley :)
# [07:23] <dael> plinss: A nice way to address would be in controls of the exlusions. I want to follow the glyph but only in this area.
# [07:23] <dael> dauwhe: You want to draw the path.
# [07:23] <dael> plinss: I don't want to draw
# [07:23] * krit hober who wants dropbox?
# [07:24] <dael> dbaron: The ex I've seen of doing that with first letters seem to follow the shape for the first, but make sure the following are square.
# [07:24] <dael> dauwhe: I've seen that
# [07:24] <clilley> its an exclusion from the intersection of the glyph outline and a given rectamgular shape below the baseline
# [07:24] <dael> dbaron: I found one with a cap D and the first line was witht he D and the next three were flush witht he box. but it wasn't a real world ex
# [07:24] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak)
# [07:25] <liam> dbaron, http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-qnEdyt8fczk/U22dxCLkvqI/AAAAAAAAAZY/HQA6xd0mMn4/s1600/114-drop-cap-examples-c.jpg shows that (using metal type so the baseline didn't align properly)
# [07:25] <clilley> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Illuminated.bible.arp.jpg
# [07:25] <dael> dauwhe: I've seen a common thing where the first line is pushed into the letter, but not the rest.
# [07:25] <dbaron> http://www.templates.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Learn-How-To-Create-Drop-Cap-Letters-In-CSS.png
# [07:25] <dael> fantasai: That's to implve the visual connection
# [07:25] <dael> liam: People will want to get creative in ways we won't predict
# [07:25] <dael> astearns: And this can be done with a shape
# [07:25] * liam dbaron, hah, and I drew that image too, that you just pasted
# [07:25] <dael> hober: I like the exclusion box. If I have to do a polygon and the user didn't have the font, it's busted
# [07:26] <dael> plinss: We can do this with various things, whereever they came from, and I can define how they interact. Then we just do exlusions for drop caps
# [07:26] <dael> fantasai: We can add a keyword for text indent and say if we're following shape of dropcap since we have first line controls
# [07:26] <dael> hober: yeah
# [07:26] <dael> fantasai: I haven't thought this through, but it's someting to think about.
# [07:27] <dael> astearns: So we have all sorts of things proposed, but I like the idea of a restricted set for now
# [07:27] <dael> dauwhe: And the percentage it'll cover will improve the situation dramantically.
# [07:27] <dael> ...: That's one concern I had witht he current is that there were all these things with options when we need a default
# [07:27] <dael> hober: So a shorthand that takes one or two values.
# [07:28] <SteveZ> I am concerned that we should be looking at an architecture that covers 100% of the case and then simplify rather than hope we can extend
# [07:28] <clilley> http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2012/04/03/drop-caps-historical-use-and-current-best-practices/
# [07:28] <dbaron> http://annesart.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/apes_macbeth.jpg is also interesting
# [07:28] <dael> dauwhe: I like that idea a lot and this is something that's used for a lot of authors that haven't spent quality time with inline formatting models
# [07:28] * Joins: barrbrain (~barrbrain@public.cloak)
# [07:28] <dael> hober: The gap between those props and the ex from SteveZ is margin, z-index, and the exclusion, all of which we have.
# [07:28] <dael> dauwhe: All we need is the prop that says this drops 4 and takes 5 lines
# [07:28] <dael> astearns: [reads SteveZ IRC comments]
# [07:29] <dael> TabAtkins: Normally we make sure we know that the 100% would look like, and know that we can eventually fill the holes
# [07:29] <dael> plinss: I don't want to fill with 10 prop. I want a few and than CSS primitives
# [07:29] <SteveZ> correct: have an plan that you need not fully flesh out
# [07:29] <dael> hober: The other kinds aren't unique.
# [07:30] <dael> clilley: We did just talk about finding all these baselines. I'm concerned these are all ltin and I'd like to see thigns that use different baselines
# [07:30] * fantasai clilley++
# [07:30] <fantasai> s/ltin/Latin/
# [07:30] <dael> dauwhe: 1 q about that is would each language have a pref set of alignment points?
# [07:30] <liam> [I do have a later blog entry pointing to some Arabic examples]
# [07:30] <dael> clilley: It might but we don't know
# [07:30] <dbaron> The Economist in general does the thing with the D example -- first line fits to the glyph, second line fits to the box
# [07:30] <dael> fantasai: We have a dominant baeline
# [07:30] <dael> TabAtkins: From the dominant baseline you can infur the points
# [07:30] <fantasai> s/dominant baeline/dominant-baseline property/
# [07:30] <dael> clilley: The inferring needs to be in the spec.
# [07:31] <dael> dauwhe: I'm wery of the approach that lets me access 17 alignment points and ends up in a mess
# [07:31] <dael> hober: You shouldn't be forecd into that mess if the first is CJK and the rest is latin
# [07:31] <dael> dbaron: Random data point, the Economist takes the first line to the drop cap and then aligns the rest to a regular point
# [07:32] <dael> clilley: What fantasai was saying about indent
# [07:32] <dael> fantasai: We'd have to add a keyword.
# [07:32] <SteveZ> Liam also has examples where the first line is "kerned" to the initial letter in his blog at http://barefootliam.blogspot.ca/2014/05/bruce-rogers-on-drop-caps.html
# [07:32] <dael> hober: It's any special value that's not negative
# [07:32] <liam> first line indent - no because you don't know the distance until you know the font
# [07:32] <dael> astearns: That would make it align.
# [07:32] <dael> TabAtkins: Text indent only shifts the first line
# [07:32] <dael> plinss: You have to shift enough to not overlap the glyph
# [07:32] <dael> dbaron: I think the Economist has custom flows
# [07:33] <liam> first line joined to the initial is done when it's part of the same word, e.g. [A]pples of the mind, rather than [A] boy ate two apples
# [07:33] <dael> dbaron: I think it's better to do smaller subset
# [07:33] <dael> dauwhe: I don't see anything about your drop two that's boxing us in.
# [07:34] <dael> hober: I don't want ot gratuituously preclude adding more but I don't think that's what we're doing.
# [07:35] <dbaron> I think it's actually that the non-first-line in the Economist is one of the points to which justification spacing is distributed.
# [07:35] <dael> astearns: If we start with simple shorthand, do we need longhand?
# [07:35] <dael> plinss: We cn always break it out later if we need to
# [07:35] <dael> hober: Why not drop integer integer? It's just called drop
# [07:35] <dael> dbaron: It can be later a short hand
# [07:36] <dael> clilley: So initial value is 1, 0
# [07:36] <SteveZ> But what do you do when the initial letter is only partially dropped?
# [07:36] <dael> [white board discussion with lots of pointing at things that I can't minute]
# [07:36] <liam> drop n m, would be a partial solution, could it later be declared a shorthand for a more powerful set of properties?
# [07:36] <dbaron> Yes, could definitely become a shorthand later
# [07:37] <dael> clilley: There's 3 things. Number of lanes to span, a thing to shove it up, and a thing that says how much space for things below base?
# [07:37] <dael> dauwhe: We weren't going to do the 3rd, that would be on by default
# [07:37] <dael> ...: We exclude on the n square
# [07:37] <dael> plinss: glyph square
# [07:38] <dael> hober: I was invisioning a single prop where it's three lines tall and three lines deep. So two values of 3, 1 where it is three high, but only goes down on line.
# [07:38] * liam lost
# [07:38] <liam> dbaron, thanks (shorthand)
# [07:38] <dael> dauwhe: 3, 1 is the raised cap
# [07:38] * Quits: andrey (~andrey@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [07:38] <dbaron> two integers that express (a) the number of lines the line is sized to and (b) the number of lines it drops down
# [07:38] <dael> ...: The pure raised cap is 3, 0
# [07:39] <dael> SteveZ: What if the alignment isn't alphabetic baseline? Like a hanging alignment thing
# [07:39] <dael> TabAtkins: We talke dabout that
# [07:39] <dael> TabAtkins: We'd figure out the right thing to align to and poss alow override but we'd come up with a reasonable default
# [07:40] <dael> [more pointing and talking about what would constitute what dimension]
# [07:40] <dael> dauwhe: 3 is the number of lines occupied by the drop cap
# [07:40] <dael> SteveZ: That doesn't work
# [07:40] <dael> dauwhe: That's a short hand for when we describe when the drop cap is n time the height
# [07:41] <dael> SteveZ: You've got languages where you've got stuff underneath
# [07:41] <dael> clilley: The initial size is how many it would cover and the second is if you cover all or some and than there's an automatic property that's an exclusion below
# [07:41] <dael> SteveZ: That's not what you want. You want the base character size the same throughout
# [07:42] <dael> clilley: That's what we're doing. We're chopping out more lines that spec to allow to not intersect.
# [07:42] <dael> SteveZ: Okay. if that's true I think you'll have trouble writing a clear spec to say exactly what, say, 3 means.
# [07:43] <dael> whiteboard: initial-letter: <integer> {1, 2}
# [07:43] <SteveZ> s/that spec/than spec'ed
# [07:43] <dael> dauwhe: Does int include 0?
# [07:43] * liam think this only handles letters/glyphs, not images, right?
# [07:44] <dael> TabAtkins: We don't have a term for that and it's not clear if positive is 0
# [07:44] <dael> dbaron: There's also a constrant to make sure the second is less than the first
# [07:44] <dael> dauwhe: If the second int is bigger it's just sunk
# [07:44] <dael> hober: I don't care if we disallow
# [07:44] <dbaron> yeah, maybe it's fine to allow "3 4"
# [07:44] <dael> plinss: The property name shouldn't include the word letter. We're not controling how much we're doing this to
# [07:45] <dbaron> it'll help people figure out what the values do, at least
# [07:45] <SteveZ> Images can be handled if you can overlay a baseline table on the image
# [07:45] <dael> hober: If this is only value on first letter pseudo, than we don't have to say first letter
# [07:45] <dael> plinss: We're desc the behviour, not what it's applied to.
# [07:46] <dael> fantasai: So it takes to int, they must be > 0 and we don't care about the relationship of them. First int is how many lines tall, second is how many lines it goes intot he paragraph
# [07:46] <dael> dbaron: How many lines it's lower alignment point sinks in.
# [07:46] <liam> so in http://barefootliam.blogspot.ca/2014/05/using-images-as-initial-drop-caps.html (see 2nd image) first number would be 4, what would second be?
# [07:46] <dael> dauwhe: How about when the paragraph is too short?
# [07:46] <SteveZ> For hanging alignment, the alignment point is not "lower"
# [07:46] <dael> TabAtkins: Is it a float or something else. because it's a float it's whatever you want to do
# [07:47] <dael> fantasai: Default should be it takes up space. If you want to do fancy we can do that later.
# [07:47] <dael> plinss: The other question is when we're not dropping full height, are we just making the first line taller
# [07:47] <dael> hober: And than how does it interact with line grid
# [07:47] <dael> TabAtkins: It's prob desireable to make ti not take up geomentric space
# [07:47] <dael> plinss: But than you overlap with the paragraph above
# [07:47] <dael> TabAtkins: So it should add extra space to the top
# [07:48] <dael> hober: It's empty lines that don't get counted
# [07:48] <dael> fantasai: So currently if you set font 3 you get a big gap. So I think having the two parameters it lets us do initial and drop properly
# [07:48] * SteveZ discussion is difficult to follow
# [07:48] <dael> fantasai: For the name of the propery, inital-letters?
# [07:49] <dael> zcorpan: What about a big initial character and you want the next paragraph to be indented too. Is there a way?
# [07:49] <dael> hober: You float it
# [07:49] <dael> fantasai: So in most cases do you want the drop to continue through
# [07:49] <dael> dbaron: Depends on if next paragraph has a drop
# [07:49] <dael> hober: So if there's a lot of drop caps, you put float left and clear left on my first one.
# [07:50] <dael> dbaron: putting float left and clear left on the first under semantics moves the first letter, but not the first line
# [07:50] <dael> TabAtkins: You want this to work with the paragraph in a way flaot doesn't do
# [07:50] <dael> plinss: But maybe we can use clear
# [07:50] <dael> dbaron: Does float on first letter behave like float?
# [07:50] <liam> (want clear: on the paragraph, but of course that interacts with other things on the page)
# [07:50] <dael> plinss: I'd rather not a magic float
# [07:50] <dael> hober: But if we have it we might as well admit it
# [07:51] <dael> dauwhe: Does everything I want need magic?
# [07:51] <dael> TabAtkins: Yes.
# [07:51] <dbaron> http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/graphics/Page2.jpg
# [07:51] <dbaron> (first letter crossing multiple paragraphs)
# [07:51] <dael> fantasai: So if we have the initial value as normal we can say if your next paragraph starts normal you wrap. If it starts special than you have to clear the inital cap
# [07:51] <SteveZ> I would not like magic floats either
# [07:51] <dael> astearns: This is getting into future teritory. You can add a switch to push or wrap the next paragraph
# [07:52] <dael> fantasai: We can do auto behaviour now, though.
# [07:52] <dael> dbaron: What's initial?
# [07:52] <dael> fantasai: Initial is normal since we need it to be not 1 because it tirgger decendor behaviour.
# [07:52] <dael> fantasai: If you have 2 paragraphs, if the first one..
# [07:52] <dael> dbaron: I get it now.
# [07:52] <dael> plinss: But if you set it to one it gets pushed.
# [07:53] <dbaron> fantasai's whiteboard currently says:
# [07:53] * SteveZ I do not get it
# [07:53] <dbaron> initial-letters: <integer>{1,2} | normal
# [07:53] <dbaron> * integers > 0
# [07:53] <dael> plinss: I'm wondering in the case of hanging baselines if the default is to drop and exceptional is the shift.
# [07:53] <dbaron> * glyph overflow is excluded
# [07:53] <dael> plinss: If first controls size...
# [07:53] <dbaron> * handle non-alphabetic baselines
# [07:53] <dael> fantasai: They do initial too.
# [07:53] <dael> plinss: I'm wondering if second might be negative with hanging baselines
# [07:53] <dael> fantasai: No. we won't do that.
# [07:53] <dbaron> * subsequent paragraphs starting [with initial-letters] normal wrap. Non-normals clear.
# [07:53] <dael> Rossen_: Are we modeling float or exclusion.
# [07:53] <liam> [as far as I can tell, Hindi and Arabic do *not* align the hanging baseline, they work like Western drop caps]
# [07:54] <dael> Rossen_: That will make a difference if your second paragraph is overflow hiddne. If we do float the second paragraph is pushed. If we do exlusion second would be excluded. So which?
# [07:54] <dael> fantasai: I think we want float because if you have block formatting group you prob want that not wrapping into the previous paragraph
# [07:54] <astearns> liam - for Hindi that makes some sense. the hanging line on the drop cap will be larger than the line in the text, so aligning it wouldn't help much
# [07:54] <dael> zcorpan: Is it poss to make the lines follow the shape?
# [07:54] * Joins: andrey (~andrey@public.cloak)
# [07:55] <dael> hober: We talked about that with shape outside
# [07:55] <dael> plinss: The dafault is exlude around the box. And if you want to do some wrap that's an extension.
# [07:55] <liam> [Arabic example - https://web.archive.org/web/20131025031223/http://garciamedia.com/images/blog/Shabopinion_thumb.png ]
# [07:55] <dael> hober: Or a keyword
# [07:55] <dael> plinss: It would only work on the first line, but future ones can work on other lines.
# [07:55] <dael> fantasai: Name of the property?
# [07:55] <dael> plinss: Bikeshed
# [07:56] <dael> Rossen_: With a value of shenangians
# [07:56] * myakura yay bikeshed!
# [07:56] <liam> [for Hindi, as per Richard Ishida's example mentioned in my blog, it's a Drop Syllable]
# [07:56] <dael> fantasai: I like letters. With the s it seems ambigous.
# [07:56] <dael> hober: Can we defer naming to the editor?
# [07:56] <dbaron> s/like letters/like initial-letter/
# [07:56] <dael> dauwhe: The name can be hashed out on the list. I'm not senstitive to the issues involved
# [07:56] <dael> fantasai: We have letter-space already so being consistant is good
# [07:56] <dbaron> s/letter-space/letter-spacing/
# [07:56] <liam> [who is the editor? I'll be happy to help review the text etc.]
# [07:57] <dael> fantasai: We have a first-letter and letter- spaceing.
# [07:57] <dbaron> liam, dauwhe
# [07:57] <liam> ok, thanks
# [07:57] <dael> plinss: I'm fine with first-letter for now, but I don't want that to be the final name.
# [07:57] <dael> clilley: We can all it "first!"
# [07:57] * liam q+
# [07:57] <dael> fantasai: Any other points that we need to add to the summary?
# [07:57] <dbaron> dauwhe: "first‽" :-)
# [07:57] * liam can't unmute
# [07:58] <dael> plinss: If theres one number is the default the drop?
# [07:58] <dael> fantasai: Yes.
# [07:58] <dael> plinss: Is that how it should work?
# [07:58] <glazou> liam: you ARE unmuted
# [07:58] <dael> dauwhe: That's the common case.
# [07:58] <dael> fantasai: The last time I made a prop where it took two and you could design one and there's repeating, I regretted it later.
# [07:58] * liam nowunmuted sorry
# [07:58] <dael> dauwhe: I thnk that's better.
# [07:58] <dael> liam: This sounds like it works for glyphs, but what about images.
# [07:59] <dael> liam: There's quite an industry for drop caps for print and web
# [07:59] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't see a problem with images. You give it the same values, it would take whatever space. If it's atomic you'd use different alignment
# [07:59] <SteveZ> q+
# [07:59] <dael> dauwhe: You're still aligning with text.
# [07:59] <dael> dbaron: the problem is images aren't matched by first letter pseudo
# [07:59] <liam> [if it's SVG the formatter can scale it to fit]
# [08:00] <dael> clilley: And images is an image and doesn't have font information. But open font format is having a new edition where you can add SVG outlines where you can have anything
# [08:00] <dael> clilley: If you have an image and want people to sue it. Y ou can drop it into SVG and provide that information and you're done.
# [08:00] <dbaron> and this solves my problem too
# [08:00] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't htink we need new prop as images, but as images in a font we're great.
# [08:00] <plinss> q?
# [08:01] <dael> dauwhe: There's precendent in e-books.
# [08:01] <dael> SteveZ: I was going to say something similar to clilley.
# [08:01] <clilley> s/sue/use
# [08:01] <clilley> s/into SVG/into a font using SVG
# [08:01] <dael> SteveZ: I wanted to point out why one of the reasons that vertical align has an alignment point is to let you describe that. The other half of the problem is trying to figure out the top of the image as you mgith have extra features that you don't want into your computation
# [08:02] <dael> SteveZ: We need an alignment point and sizing point on the image.
# [08:02] <dael> dauwhe: Are we jsut defining what would have been the baseline of the initial letter and what would have been the cap height?
# [08:02] <dael> dauwhe: And if there's frames these image initials have lots of pretty things.
# [08:03] <dael> clilley: But than the exclusion magic kicks in. What happens if it has extra stuff. Your left margin there, if the ink is larger than it, does it extend?
# [08:03] <dbaron> italics too?
# [08:03] <dael> clilley: Liam, thoughts on characters wider than their advance?
# [08:03] <dael> liam: I've got an ex where the top right of a W goes over and that's an ex where you use the outline of the glyph.
# [08:04] <dael> SteveZ: I think what we said is if you use the shape exclusion and image format, you get what you want.
# [08:04] <liam> http://barefootliam.blogspot.ca/2014/05/drop-caps-other-writing-systems-other.html links to an example...
# [08:04] <dael> plinss: I think the answer is yes. Possible above and to the left.
# [08:04] <liam> http://uandlc.com/PDF/Volume%2017-2.pdf starting at page 18 is the article of drop cap examples
# [08:04] <dael> fantasai: So a side point, we need to be able to spec the baseline of a non-character
# [08:04] <dael> hober: And for toher cases
# [08:05] <dael> fantasai: We have rule for syntesizing that and the author should be able to use thos
# [08:05] * Quits: barrbrain (~barrbrain@public.cloak) ("")
# [08:05] <dael> fantasai: The prop applies to line and first letter and any inline.
# [08:05] <dael> hober: That takes care of where it uses a span path
# [08:05] <dael> dauwhe: Or where we need that open "
# [08:05] <dbaron> s/any inline/any inline-level first child of a block container/
# [08:05] <dael> fantasai: At it means it applies to an image
# [08:06] * liam can't hear chris
# [08:06] <dael> clilley: One thing it won't do is a paragraph with a span inside it where I have punctuation in a different language
# [08:06] <dael> hober: I'm okay if that's hard.
# [08:07] <dael> clilley: I've got a span where I put a language where I don't want to dropt he symbol, than I put a span with the letter I want to drop and hober doens't care.
# [08:07] <dael> hober: It's an edge case.
# [08:07] <dael> clilley: It's an edge case only in english.
# [08:07] <dael> dbaron: Why does first-letter not work?
# [08:07] <dael> dbaron: Do you have ex of that?
# [08:07] * liam has seen a Dutch example with a t’ at normal size, then the Drop Cap
# [08:07] <dael> clilley: Commonly people use the example of punctuation.
# [08:07] <astearns> http://etutorials.org/shared/images/tutorials/tutorial_77/figure10_16_quote.jpg
# [08:07] <dael> plinss: But the puctuation will get the same size and you can wrap them both is span
# [08:08] <dael> TabAtkins: Where does the punct go when you drop the letter?
# [08:08] <dael> clilley: I'm not sure
# [08:08] <liam> (and you need first-word for Hebrew)
# [08:08] <dael> dbaron: I haven't seen it with the punct. not dropped
# [08:08] <dael> hober: I've seen where to the left in the margin there's the punct.
# [08:08] <dael> fantasai: We have hanging punct prop
# [08:09] <jdaggett> what's the common case that we're trying to support here?
# [08:09] <hober> l'hôtel
# [08:09] <dael> hober: A non-all-punt property is in french (see above)
# [08:09] <hober> with the H as the drop cap
# [08:09] <jdaggett> should aim to solve that problem *first*
# [08:09] <clilley> example with initial letter and previous punctuation http://www.lynda.com/InDesign-tutorials/Adding-hanging-punctuation-Optical-Margin-Alignment/114324/127131-4.html
# [08:09] <dael> hober: So the H is the drop cap.
# [08:09] <dael> glaz: No, it doesn't work.
# [08:09] <dael> clilley: I have a case in IRC where the punct is outside the margin.
# [08:09] <dael> fantasai: And you can do taht with drop case
# [08:09] * Quits: andrey (~andrey@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [08:09] <dael> hober: I want that to be handled. ANd if my french is wrong that's okay
# [08:10] <dael> glaz: No, the first letter has to be the drop cap
# [08:10] <dbaron> but in clilley's example the punctuation *also* has the style/size, so you're fine
# [08:10] <dael> TabAtkins: Tehre should only be one thing so it doesn't have to be limited.
# [08:10] <dael> dbaron: In clilley case the punct is also resized.
# [08:10] <dael> clilley: This line indent is showing.
# [08:10] <clilley> example with first line indents http://i.stack.imgur.com/45WNU.png
# [08:11] <SteveZ> What is hard in the clilley case is getting the negative indent sized correctly
# [08:11] <dael> fantasai: So to clarify text- indent and hanging punctuation still apply to the dropped text
# [08:11] <astearns> SteveZ: that should be done with a hanging punct property, imo
# [08:11] <dael> fantasai: We'll make sure that's in the spec
# [08:11] <dael> plinss: We're done?
# [08:12] <dael> TabAtkins: We've shipped a spec with one property, so we can do what we want
# [08:12] <dael> fantasai: We'll start in css inline and than we can split later.
# [08:12] <dael> break = 15 min
# [08:12] <SteveZ> hanging punct property is OK if what is out dented is the punct
# [08:13] <fantasai> s/later/later if needed/
# [08:15] <dael> whiteboard: bullets concerning initial letters. - glyph overflow is excluded, both dimensions, - handle non-Alphabetic baselines, - Subsequent paragraphs starting normal/wrap and non-normal starting paragraphs and BFCs clear, - omitted 2nd = 1st, - Applies to: :first-letter inline-level and first child of a block container, - text-indent and hanging-punctuation stll apply to the dropped text (clarifiaction)
# [08:21] * Joins: heeyoun (~uid33091@public.cloak)
# [08:24] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
# [08:27] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak) ("")
# [08:30] * Quits: dael (~dael@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [08:31] <fantasai> Summary of discussion: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014May/0211.html
# [08:32] <dbaron> current meeting room temperature is 29.5°C. I just adjusted the ventilation setup a little bit (changing which windows are open and closed)
# [08:32] * Joins: dael (~dael@public.cloak)
# [08:38] <dwim> dbaron: I hope it works..
# [08:39] <dael> plinss: Let's start again
# [08:39] <dael> plinss: Next is box align
# [08:39] <dael> [pause for stragglers]
# [08:39] <dael> plinss: So box align.
# [08:39] <dael> fantasai: More baseline!
# [08:40] <dael> fantasai: Give me one second.
# [08:40] <dael> fantasai: The box align stuff we worked on the baseline section and there had been some discussion about having the ability to align to first or last baseline
# [08:40] <dael> fantasai: For ex you have a bunch of tabs you might want to align to last.
# [08:41] <dael> fantasai: To allow to swtich we have added last-baseline for alignment properties
# [08:41] <dael> fantasai: Alt. we can do first-baseline or last-baseline
# [08:41] <dbaron> Current temperature in both Seoul and Suwon is 27.1°C per http://web.kma.go.kr/eng/weather/forecast/current_korea.jsp , so we don't have a lot of room to cool
# [08:41] <astearns> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-align/
# [08:41] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [08:41] <dael> fantasai: I'll project
# [08:41] * dauwhe Liam: yes, we did publish the Twilight novels :)
# [08:42] <glazou> SimonSapin: you're now unmuted
# [08:42] <dbaron> fantasai projects http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-align/#baseline-rules
# [08:43] <dael> fantasai: In order to handle all the baselines that exist, what we have is we define that instead of a single baseline, you have an entire baslein table that you take and propegate
# [08:43] * liam suspected this from the use of the example (I haven't read them, I admit, although know someone who did cover photos for them)
# [08:43] <dael> fantasai: ex if I'm in a block insde ad table cell in a table the first block will set the baseline where the inline table will align. Since ast he block we don't know if the inline table want's to use a type of baseline, we propegate them all out.
# [08:44] * Quits: murakami (~murakami@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [08:44] <dael> fantasai: We wrote the text with those concepts and explained for block containers how you get that and added table columns so you'll have baselines for the block acess.
# [08:44] <dael> fantasai: flex and grid cont we were referring to those specs, but we realized that flex needs a lot more detail
# [08:44] * Joins: murakami (~murakami@public.cloak)
# [08:44] <dael> fantasai: Other things we haven't done is if you have mulitple groups
# [08:44] * dauwhe I was just searching across my collection of XML files for paragraphs that started with the appropriate letter
# [08:44] <dael> fantasai: If you have two sets of baselines, this section needs an update
# [08:45] <dael> fantasai: There's also oposite writing modes where if you have, say, Chinese and Mongolian where the first baseline of Mongolian is on the right, Chinese on the left, but letters are oritented in the same way
# [08:45] <dael> fantasai: If they're oriented the same way, maybe you want to orient togther.
# [08:45] <dael> fantasai: Any input/comments/examples would be great
# [08:46] <dael> fantasai: That's where we got. Goal is to complete this a pub a new WD
# [08:46] <dael> fantasai: For temonology we added a bunch of terms to talk about alignment. Alignment subject, alignment container.
# [08:46] <dael> fantasai: For baseline we added more terms.
# [08:47] <dael> fantasai: Baseline sharing group and concepts of sharing an alignment context so you know when you're aligning to eachother you know what you're aligning to.
# [08:47] <dael> fantasai: We tried to make that clear and explicit
# [08:47] <dael> fantasai: That's that. Do people have comments/thoughts/complaints about termonology.
# [08:48] <dael> fantasai: One thing we did was an an hr/seperater for things you might want to read if you're an author and the things that you won't ever want as an author.
# [08:48] <dael> fantasai: We addeda note that vertical align prop will need a first baseline value that's different from the first because it depends on if it's an inline block to which you're aligning.
# [08:48] <dael> TabAtkins: That's it.
# [08:48] <dael> plinss: Okay. Are you ready to pub an update?
# [08:49] <dael> fantasai: Now?
# [08:49] <dael> TabAtkins: I want antoher day to work on baseline.
# [08:49] * zcorpan should we rename to vertical-align: first-base ?
# [08:49] <dael> fantasai: That's where we're going, though.
# [08:49] * plh wishes room { temperature: cooler; }
# [08:49] <dael> fantasai: I think the key idea is when you're dealing with baseliens, unless you're doing an alignment right there, you want to hold on the the whole baseline table. This is for here and line grid. line grid does that.
# [08:49] <dael> fantasai: Next topic.
# [08:50] <dael> plinss: Box Model
# [08:50] <dael> fantasai: That wasn't me
# [08:50] <dael> TabAtkins: Who added it
# [08:50] * glazou plh submit a proposal for CSS extension?
# [08:50] <dael> plinss: It's been on since the extencible web summit
# [08:50] <dael> TabAtkins: I can talk usefully about some of the feedback in the vaint hat are interesting things.
# [08:50] <dael> hober: Bert wanted to call for this.
# [08:50] <SteveZ> need a mic near the speaker
# [08:51] <dael> clilley: It's 10 to 9am in france
# [08:51] <dael> plinss: We won't do a better time.
# [08:51] * SteveZ and 10 minutes to midnight in California
# [08:52] * dauwhe SteveZ: glaz is working on the microphone
# [08:52] <glazou> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_SJ0MMDxXkrM/TP8MRqTZiJI/AAAAAAAAAmI/xjrnkFEDL2w/s1600/cachorro-calor.jpeg
# [08:52] <adenilson> yeah!
# [08:53] * krit c'mon guys, even Europe has ~30deg Celsius
# [08:54] <glazou> yes but offices usually have AC
# [08:54] <dael> TabAtkins: Are we ready?
# [08:54] <dael> plinss: No sign of Bert
# [08:54] <dael> TabAtkins: Okay.
# [08:54] <glazou> here we have 30C + 30 people + 30 laptops
# [08:54] * dauwhe krit: cool drinks are hard to find here
# [08:54] <dael> TabAtkins: The biggest of this discussion was mainly witht he react.JS folks.
# [08:54] <dael> TabAtkins: They doa standard thing where the DOM is progected and you don't deal with it in your ap.
# [08:55] * krit dauwhe the Americans :/
# [08:55] <dael> TabAtkins: The things on the DOM side about about elements with odd hidden state, but on the CSS side there's insights
# [08:55] <dael> TabAtkins: Poss doing an exposed render tree.
# [08:55] <dael> TabAtkins: the idea is in some cases, react would be happy if they can do everything in web GL.
# [08:56] <dael> TabAtkins: They can't do that because various of our things required years, but if most of the page could abe a custom renderer and they got int HTML for a handful of things
# [08:56] <dael> TabAtkins: Problem is we're jsut doing a canvas taht's a black box and can't interact with the page.
# [08:56] <dael> TabAtkins: They can't tell the browser this is floated, give me your ideal size.
# [08:57] <dael> TabAtkins: Best take away is it would be useful to define layout API that we inplicitly lean on for layout so an arbitrary JS could hook in and provide the information req.
# [08:57] <dael> TabAtkins: So it can make things masqurade as if they had intensic sizing.
# [08:57] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't know what that would require to expose, but it seems it would be a small interface.
# [08:57] <dael> TabAtkins: Probably between 3 and 5 pieces from a block, min/max content and pref size
# [08:58] <dael> TabAtkins: And have a few ways to call in, either just provide information from CSS or provide information CSS can ask for like I'm going to render you in min content, tell me that.
# [08:58] <dael> TabAtkins: Putting it there isn't great, but we can define minimum a block needs to expose to prove layout.
# [08:59] <dael> TabAtkins: There was talk about explicit tree exposure and I didn't deal with that as much. plinss and glaz did.
# [08:59] <dael> plinss: The premise there is the expose the box tree that we know is there and don't talk about and start exposing folks into layout to do real polyfills
# [08:59] <dael> plinss: The gist is to depicate presetational APIs and have APIs in the box tree to get presentational data
# [09:00] <dael> plinss: We need to formalize what is a box. These are all things that have been always there, but not doc.
# [09:00] <dael> plinss: I'd like doc and exposure
# [09:00] <dael> TabAtkins: Earlier we talked about frag based styling and we had an issue that git computer doesn't wowrk. If we expose something like a render tree we can get a chorehent idea of the style
# [09:00] <dael> plinss: WE can get the list of things and than get the computed style on that.
# [09:01] <dael> plinss: Than we can stop exposing these lies in DOM APIs
# [09:01] <dael> plinss: We've been talking for years, I want to say let's jsut do it
# [09:01] <dael> TabAtkins: I think we should
# [09:01] <dael> dbaron: There's a bunch of hard problem. When do you get the same object and when do you get a different one. We don't proise anything about permeence.
# [09:01] <dael> clilley: Does the return point to the actual object?
# [09:01] * astearns s/things/fragboxthings/
# [09:01] <dael> plinss: There's no way to get it
# [09:02] <dael> clilley: If there's a copy that's fine.
# [09:02] <dael> plinss: That's a rational way to make this work.
# [09:02] <dael> plinss: We shouldn't just rewrite interfaces on this thing. I also don't want to expose peculiarities of layout
# [09:02] <dael> hober: That's 80% of this feature
# [09:02] <dael> plinss: I want to expose results
# [09:02] <dael> hober: But the stragne is what we need
# [09:03] <dael> Rossen_: And you're assuming an specific implementation that isn't in our implementations.
# [09:03] <glazou> krit is now unmuted
# [09:03] <dael> Rossen_: There's things we can look to expose in specific, but saying you want to expose box tree or render tree is going a bit further than our impl.
# [09:04] <dael> dbaron: I think the idea of exposing a read only copy is also hard because if you're going to expose child lists and tree navigation because that imples you need to make a copy of the whole tree if you want any piece.
# [09:04] <dael> astearns: This is something Mozilla already exposes in their dev tools
# [09:04] <dael> dbaron: Not really.
# [09:04] <dael> dbaron: I'm not sure what diagram you mean, but we don't really have APIs exposed to dev tools.
# [09:04] <hober> s/But the strange is what we need//
# [09:04] * Joins: Kyounga (~Kyounga@public.cloak)
# [09:04] <dbaron> s/./ for getting this./
# [09:04] <Rossen_> s/expose box tree or render tree is going a bit further than our impl./expose box tree or render tree is going a bit further than what all impls could agree on/
# [09:05] <dael> plinss: I don't want to pick an impl and say this is what we need to expose, but I think there's a rational subset that can be exposed. I don't want to jsut throw up our hands and say this is hard.
# [09:05] <dael> hober: I think there are several boxes that we have no way to get at and might be reasonable to expose. I think that's a tiny fraction of what the people asking for this want
# [09:06] <dael> plinss: react.JS is asking for something different. I'm not talking about sat. them completely, but everyone else. If people do hit testing on the tree it doesn't work.
# [09:06] <dael> hober: I agree we have a problem with hit testing. I think the problem is that we never defined hit testing
# [09:06] <dael> plinss: There is a hirerarcical geomentry that makes hit testing work and why can't we explain it.
# [09:06] <dael> plinss: You don't have that in IE?
# [09:06] <dael> Rossen_: That's not easy to expose.
# [09:07] <dael> hober: Expose and explain are different.
# [09:07] * Quits: dholbert (~dholbert@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [09:07] * liam not clear on value of explaining things if they can't be tested
# [09:07] <dael> plinss: So what's the answer? There's nothing we can do?
# [09:07] <dael> hober: This is enormous.
# [09:08] <dael> plinss: I'm not saying it's not. I'm not saying it won't expose things people can shoot themselves in the foot with. This can't be impossible
# [09:08] <dael> TabAtkins: I think we can bit of less enourmous chunks
# [09:08] <dael> hober: We're less likely to do that. We need to define boxes taht we need to get at and we should do that.
# [09:08] <dael> hober: If you have an inline in a block with siblings, there's an implicit box and being able to get there is reasonable
# [09:09] <dael> Rossen_: If you have it. Some impl don't
# [09:09] <dael> plinss: Can't you synth a way?
# [09:09] <dael> dbaron: With all the margin collapsing?
# [09:09] <hober> s/inline in a block with siblings/inline and a block as siblings/
# [09:09] <dael> plinss: You have to have computed it
# [09:09] <dael> Rossen_: A lot is transient.
# [09:09] <dael> hober: I brought that up because it's already spec. This box is explicitly described, but you can't get to it.
# [09:10] <dael> dbaron: It's in spec, but not in impl. It sounds like we have 2 impl where it doesn't exist, though we'd like to add it
# [09:10] <dael> hober: There's the most obvious case and that's already a problem.
# [09:10] <dael> dbaron: The change to generate that box is months of work and there's a whole bunch of others to make our render tree match what the spec says it looks like. Then we could think about exposing it.
# [09:10] <dael> plinss: No one is saying this'll get to rec in a month
# [09:10] <dael> hober: Seems like cost benefit is weighted on cost
# [09:11] <dael> plinss: I think we're not looking at benefit right. There's lots of things people can't do in script
# [09:11] <dael> hober: So we should go case by case
# [09:11] * Joins: dholbert (~dholbert@public.cloak)
# [09:11] <dael> Rossen_: So are you saying the primitive you expose isn't enough? So authors are block and can't do waht they need to today?
# [09:11] <dael> plinss: Yes.
# [09:11] <dael> Rossen_: What's an example?
# [09:12] <dael> TabAtkins: One is the knowledge of how text is broken and layed out in an element. Given a piece or geomertry and and array of text/elements, give me the layout
# [09:12] <dael> plinss: The holy grail here is what we don't know people want to do. It's polyfills. We'll spec somethign a year from now and a major browser says this is hard and will take too long.
# [09:12] <dael> plinss: And people can't get the data we need to move things.
# [09:13] <dael> glaz: We also discussed this API in conjuction with portablility.
# [09:13] <dael> glaz: So put the type into JS if you don't want to remain at the selector, you need this.
# [09:13] <dael> dbaron: I don't know if that helps as much as the API TabAtkins spoke of. You'll still need that
# [09:13] <dael> glaz: Probably.
# [09:13] <dael> plinss: I think both.
# [09:14] <dael> dbaron: Depends on complexty. I'm not conviced you can't do these thigns without TabAtkins layout exposing API plus what we have not
# [09:14] <dael> plinss: What I'm trying to solve is there are so many things in the web platform, there's a cliff where you have to reimplement 90% to add your bit.
# [09:14] <dael> hober: and we should improve over time to make that situation better.
# [09:15] <dael> plinss: This is opening up the black box that's CSS and stop keeping it there. It's big. It's not a minor thing we can do piecemeal.
# [09:15] <dael> plinss: We have to decide if CSS is maigc or unicorns or if it's explained
# [09:15] <dael> hober: I think we can do something like how web animations work we can explain how that works in a CSS model. THat's not an expose all the CSS model in and API
# [09:16] <dael> plinss: But that's just something on the side of the black box.
# [09:16] <dael> dbaron: This is a change similar to creating the DOM
# [09:16] <dael> dbaron: I think when the DOM was created there were substantial changes to how things worked.
# [09:16] * liam socialbot, tweet, we shouldn't add DOMs lightly
# [09:16] <dael> dbaron: It was a new arcetecture that the new stuff was mapped onto, but it wasn't how the new stuff worked.
# [09:16] <dael> dbaron: Given how much of a mess line layout is, maybe we should do new fundimentals.
# [09:17] <dbaron> s/line layout/CSS layout/
# [09:17] <dael> plinss: I'm fine with that approach that we design a rational system
# [09:17] <dael> hober: That sounds experemental. Why not do a community group
# [09:17] <dael> plinss: Because the experts are here.
# [09:17] <dael> dbaron: I think it needs a group os a decent size commited to working primarily on that thing.
# [09:18] <dael> shans_: You can do something like web animations with a dedicated group
# [09:18] * astearns laughing bush advisors meme for spin off a community group
# [09:18] <dael> plinss: I'm fine with that. I don't want to dictate who, I want to see it happen.
# [09:18] <dael> glaz: I think so too.
# [09:18] <dael> glaz: We discussed once with a JS based extension. We won't be able to do it correctly.
# [09:19] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [09:19] <dael> plinss: So are there people willing to work on this.
# [09:19] <dael> plinss: Don't all volunteer at once.
# [09:19] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [09:19] <dael> plinss: So define something. Define the begings
# [09:19] <dael> glaz: I'm happy to work on that
# [09:19] <dael> shans_: I'd be interested, but I don't know if I have the expertise. I'd certainly join a group.
# [09:20] <dael> plinss: Are you willing to go back to your org and have internal discussions and see if there are people willing to come work on this?
# [09:20] <dael> hober: I assume everyone goes back after a F2F and has a conversation about the topics and this is one of those things.
# [09:20] * dauwhe but there's nobody to listen :(
# [09:21] * liam :(
# [09:21] <dael> plinss: I'd like to have an inkling of a next step
# [09:21] * liam hears that from a lot of technologists at publishers
# [09:21] <dael> TabAtkins: Next is someone interested, me and shans_ , start drawing ideas and maybe experements in code.
# [09:21] <dael> shans_: In the JS model initially
# [09:21] <dael> TabAtkins: Yeah.
# [09:21] <dael> plinss: Alrighty.
# [09:22] <dael> plinss: Anything else for today?
# [09:22] * dauwhe I don't assume that senior management has heard of CSS
# [09:22] <dael> glaz: I'm waiting on dinner details.
# [09:22] <dael> glaz: Someone will come here are 5:30
# [09:22] <dael> plinss: We've exausted today. We can pull something from tomorrow.
# [09:23] <dael> TabAtkins: I can do line clamp
# [09:23] <dauwhe> s/exausted/exhausted/
# [09:23] <dael> TabAtkins: If people haven't heard of this...
# [09:23] <dael> glaz: Dinner details. They're come back here at 5:30 so if we end early, we go back to the hotel and come back here at 5:30
# [09:23] * liam will not attempt to attend dinner remotely :-) but thank you for the audio
# [09:24] <dael> TabAtkins: It's a strange proriatry feature in webkit but based on old flexbox model.
# [09:24] <zcorpan> s/It's/-webkit-line-clamp is/
# [09:24] * dauwhe glazou: "here" meaning the 9th floor?
# [09:24] <dael> TabAtkins: You spec an int and it only displays that many lines. It has to contain text and you limit the lines.
# [09:24] <dael> TabAtkins: Better than having to guess at the line height.
# [09:24] <dael> TabAtkins: It's useful for alighting text.
# [09:24] <dauwhe> s/proriatry/proprietary/
# [09:24] <dael> TabAtkins: You can display a useful amount of text without odd guessing games.
# [09:25] <glazou> dauwhe: yes, here in the meeting room
# [09:25] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm interested in putting this into a spec that's less crazy since it's not related to flex box
# [09:25] <liam> s/alighting/aligning/
# [09:25] <dael> TabAtkins: Maybe line grid
# [09:25] <dbaron> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-overflow/#max-lines
# [09:25] <dael> dbaron: It's similar to overflow fragments proposal, though the point was to say a fragment would contain this many lines and than flow intot he next, but it seems reasonable to do this.
# [09:26] <dael> astearns: In the clamp fragment case you don't want the collision marker
# [09:26] <dael> dbaron: There's be a discussion about text overflow elipsis and lines
# [09:26] <astearns> s/collision/elision/
# [09:26] <dwim> dauwhe, glazou: or, I think we can meet at the hotel robby same as yesterday. :) up to you, though.
# [09:26] <dael> TabAtkins: That would be set seperatly.
# [09:26] <dael> dbaron: I don't know if what I proposed is right, but I think the lines might be useful for whatever it ends up being.
# [09:26] <dael> TabAtkins: I love the name.
# [09:27] <glazou> dwim: yes but Dr. Lee is here...
# [09:27] <dael> TabAtkins: Sounds great. I'm happy with this.
# [09:27] <dael> TabAtkins: We jsut say this also works for overflow: hidden and I'm golden.
# [09:27] <dael> TabAtkins: It breaks after that many lines
# [09:27] <dael> fantasai: It should limit
# [09:27] <dael> Rossen_: That's the overlfow behavior.
# [09:27] <dael> TabAtkins: It means th interinsit height, the auto height is that many lines
# [09:27] <dwim> glazou: I can guide him to the hotel, when he arrived. I will be around here until then, anyway.
# [09:27] <fantasai> s/limit/just limit the height, exactly like max-height/
# [09:28] * Joins: zino (~uid32381@public.cloak)
# [09:28] <glazou> dwim: AAAAAAH excellent yes we can do that then
# [09:28] <dael> Rossen_: The behaviour for block overflow elsipsis drived the number of lines. Instead of spec number of line you'd spec the elipsis and the first line that overflows and subsiquest gets dropped
# [09:28] <glazou> thank you so much dwim
# [09:28] <dael> fantasai: Why can't htis work like max height?
# [09:28] <dael> Rossen_: How?
# [09:28] <dael> dbaron: I think it could.
# [09:29] <dael> fantasai: It's simple and you overflow unless you spec overflow scroll and if you want to clip, scoll or fragment you can.
# [09:29] <dael> fantasai: Why make it more complicated
# [09:29] <dael> hober: Makes sense
# [09:29] <dael> dbaron: Or it's a unit on value for max heigth
# [09:29] <dbaron> dbaron: but I wouldn't want to figure out fractions
# [09:29] <dbaron> Tab: plus each unit is variable size
# [09:29] <dael> hober: To me the min/max height are talking about a continuous length of very small dimension with an amount of px and this is more discreate.
# [09:29] <dael> astearns: So how would it spec
# [09:30] <dael> TabAtkins: I think it should jsut affect auto-height
# [09:30] <dael> fantasai: You want it to affect margin collapsing.
# [09:30] <astearns> s/spec/interact with min-max-height/
# [09:30] <dael> hober: Or it doesn't affect height, just wrapping
# [09:30] <dael> fantasai: But than you can't decide if you want a scroller.
# [09:30] <dael> TabAtkins: That is true.
# [09:30] <fantasai> s/if/that/
# [09:30] <dael> fantasai: We have that for select boxes, you can't expess that well.
# [09:31] <dael> fantasai: This takes care of that problem.
# [09:31] <dael> TabAtkins: That's an interesting way.
# [09:31] <dael> fantasai: Also text area, how many rows, that number
# [09:31] <dael> TabAtkins: Width is already choosen.
# [09:31] <fantasai> s/text area/<textarea>/
# [09:31] <dael> TabAtkins: Okay.
# [09:31] <fantasai> s/choosen/in chs/
# [09:31] <dael> TabAtkins: I have to think about consiquences, but I think that something like this not inteinsicly tired to frag is good.
# [09:32] <dael> fantasai: You can pull this into line-grid which would account for it.
# [09:32] <liam> s/inteinsicly/intrinsically/
# [09:32] <dael> TabAtkins: Then there's the concept in webkit the prop triggers the block overflow elipsis.
# [09:32] <dael> fantasai: That should be sep.
# [09:32] <dael> TabAtkins: That's what I thought. I had a prop for a lsightly more complex, but this is text overlflow: last line
# [09:32] <liam> s/consiquences,/consequences,/
# [09:33] <dael> hober: I want us to be able to solve thigns with properties that aren't awfully named.
# [09:33] <dael> TabAtkins: We'd have to make it a vertical flexbox...who knows...
# [09:33] <dael> fantasai: That's so weird.
# [09:33] <dael> TabAtkins: That's all I wanted to talk about.
# [09:33] <dael> hober: So do we have a resolution that people want to solve that.
# [09:34] <SteveZ> bye
# [09:34] * liam bye!
# [09:34] <krit> bye
# [09:34] * Quits: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak) (adenilson)
# [09:34] * Quits: abinader (~sid21713@public.cloak) ("")
# [09:34] <dael> RESOLVED: put max lines property that behaves like max heigh in the line grid module, work on block elipsis somewhere else
# [09:35] <dael> [end of day]
# [09:35] * Quits: dael (~dael@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [09:35] * Quits: jh_ (~jh_@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [09:35] * Quits: koji (~koji@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [09:35] <dbaron> Dinner 5:30pm in lobby of hotel.
# [09:35] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [09:35] * Quits: SteveZ (~SteveZ@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [09:36] * TabAtkins Agenda+ for tomorrow morning, whenever we have a few minutes: https://github.com/tabatkins/specs/issues/8 text-overflow:fade;, a common effect instead of an ellipsis.
# [09:36] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [09:36] <TabAtkins> Basically fade the element context to transparent over 1em or so.
# [09:36] * Quits: clilley (~clilley@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [09:37] <TabAtkins> Kept forgetting to bring this up in conf calls.
# [09:37] * plh thinks to propose http://www.w3.org/2014/05/css-conditions.html
# [09:37] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak) (jdaggett)
# [09:39] * Bert wonders what happened to the box model discussion. Was it cancelled?
# [09:39] * Quits: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [09:39] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [09:39] * Quits: shans_ (~shans@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [09:39] * Quits: Kyounga (~Kyounga@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [09:39] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [09:40] * liam plh, LOL
# [09:40] * Quits: Matsuki (~Matsuki@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [09:41] * Quits: murakami (~murakami@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [09:42] * Quits: plh (~plh@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [09:42] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [09:43] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [09:44] * Quits: glenn (~glenn@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [09:48] * Quits: yamamoto (~yamamoto@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [09:52] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [09:52] <dbaron> Bert, there was a discussion about exposing the rendering tree
# [09:52] <dbaron> Bert, if there was something else that you expected to be discussed, maybe add it to the agenda explicitly?
# [09:53] <Bert> I didn't expect anything in particula, I just saw the topic and thought I should follow it.
# [09:54] <Bert> Seems I missed it. But thanks, dbaron, and enjoy dinner!
# [09:57] <liam> morning, Bert :)
# [09:57] <Bert> Hi Liam, you're awake ?
# [09:57] <liam> only 2am
# [09:57] <liam> no, 4am
# [09:57] <liam> ok, I'm not _that_ awake
# [09:58] <Bert> :-)
# [09:58] <liam> (actuallya bug in GNOME means the time displayed on my screen is approx 2 hours wrong, it's using "mean local time" as a timezone
# [09:58] <liam> )
# [09:58] <liam> footnotes and drop caps seemed to go OK though.
# [09:58] <Bert> I'll read the logs later.
# [10:04] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak)
# [10:05] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [10:07] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
# [10:20] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [10:23] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [10:25] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [10:25] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [10:32] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [11:20] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [11:22] * Parts: harayama (~harayama@public.cloak)
# [11:27] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [11:49] * liam wonders about using font-size-adjust to do drop caps
# [11:50] <liam> (with its really really awful example in css3-fonts, no wonder it's not widely used)
# [12:08] <Bert> Interesting idea. I have to think about that...
# [12:11] <liam> e.g. with calc()
# [12:11] <liam> font-size-adjust: calc(3LH + cap-height, cap-height);
# [12:19] <TabAtkins> Oh gosh no.
# [12:19] <TabAtkins> It would be so hacky. ^_^
# [12:19] <liam> well, you have a point
# [12:20] <TabAtkins> You'd have to use floats, and proper dropcap behavior isn't *quite* float behavior.
# [12:20] <liam> just brainstorming for a moment
# [12:20] <liam> no, that's very true
# [12:20] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [12:21] <liam> i objected to footnotes being a sort of float so i shouldn't try and make drop caps be one :)
# [12:22] <liam> but there are other uses for the alignment - e.g. with marginalia & call-outs. hmm.
# [12:27] <TabAtkins> footnotes are a somewhat magical region flow.
# [12:27] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [12:27] <TabAtkins> Yeah, positioning relative to something in the text and relative to the page (different axises) is totally useful.
# [12:27] <TabAtkins> I really need that so Bikeshedded specs can push their anchors all out to the margin, and magically avoid collisions.
# [12:28] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [12:28] <liam> (i'd still want something higher-level for initial caps even if the font size was defined in therms of some font-size-adjust variant btw)
# [12:28] * liam believes in minimising the magic :)
# [12:30] <TabAtkins> Yus.
# [12:36] * Joins: antonp (~Thunderbird@public.cloak)
# [13:01] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [13:21] * Quits: dwim (~uid10661@public.cloak) ("Connection closed for inactivity")
# [13:22] * Joins: dauwhe_ (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [13:22] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [13:24] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [13:25] * Joins: dauwhe__ (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [13:27] * Quits: dauwhe_ (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [13:31] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [13:42] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [13:43] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [13:49] * Quits: dauwhe__ (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [14:09] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak)
# [14:14] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [14:24] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [14:47] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak)
# [14:53] * Joins: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [14:54] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [15:07] * Quits: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [15:07] * Joins: darktears (~darktears@public.cloak)
# [15:18] * Joins: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak)
# [15:18] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@public.cloak) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
# [15:19] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [15:25] * Quits: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [15:25] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
# [15:26] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [15:32] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [15:33] * Quits: Rossen_ (~Rossen@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [15:45] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [15:54] * Joins: Henke37 (~Henrik@public.cloak)
# [15:58] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@public.cloak) (jdaggett)
# [16:07] * Joins: dauwhe_ (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [16:12] <Henke37> so I was reading the mailing list and saw something about text decoration vs svg
# [16:13] <Henke37> the presented idea seems to be to just give svg two replacement properties and cause a split
# [16:13] <Henke37> can't the svg approatch be adopted instead with the proposed single property as a shorthand?
# [16:13] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [16:27] * Quits: zino (~uid32381@public.cloak) ("Connection closed for inactivity")
# [16:34] * Joins: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [16:39] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [16:42] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [16:44] * Quits: dauwhe_ (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [16:46] * Joins: dauwhe_ (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [16:48] * Quits: antonp (~Thunderbird@public.cloak) (antonp)
# [16:49] * Joins: antonp (~Thunderbird@public.cloak)
# [16:52] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [16:55] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [17:01] * Quits: dauwhe_ (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:24] * Joins: dauwhe_ (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [17:29] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [17:29] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [17:35] * Quits: dauwhe_ (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:02] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak)
# [18:10] * Quits: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [18:15] * Joins: dauwhe_ (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [18:21] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:24] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [18:28] * Quits: dauwhe_ (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:28] * Joins: dauwhe_ (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [18:34] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:41] * Joins: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [19:08] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
# [20:03] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
# [20:10] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [20:15] * Quits: dauwhe_ (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:28] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:52] * Quits: antonp (~Thunderbird@public.cloak) (antonp)
# [21:20] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [21:27] * Quits: Garbee (~uid21171@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [21:30] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
# [21:37] * Joins: Garbee (~uid21171@public.cloak)
# [21:45] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
# [21:46] * Quits: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak) ("")
# [22:09] * Quits: Garbee (~uid21171@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [22:12] * Joins: Garbee (~uid21171@public.cloak)
# [22:21] * Quits: rhauck (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [22:27] * Joins: Henke37b (~Henrik@public.cloak)
# [22:27] * Joins: Henke37c (~Henrik@public.cloak)
# [22:31] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak) ("nn")
# [22:33] * Quits: Henke37 (~Henrik@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:34] * Quits: Henke37b (~Henrik@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:43] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
# [23:00] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:13] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
# [23:36] * Joins: jcraig_ (~jcraig@public.cloak)
# [23:40] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:40] * jcraig_ is now known as jcraig
# [23:41] * Quits: karl (~karlcow@public.cloak) (":tiuQ tiuq sah woclrak")
# Session Close: Wed May 21 00:00:00 2014

The end :)