/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-07-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jul 24 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #css
  3. # [00:00] <astearns_> liam: you aren't aware that float-based layout is all we need to replace native apps?
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  12. # [00:44] <rhauck> yes
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  16. # [00:52] <TabAtkins> liam: The people who don't agree are, themselves, evil.
  17. # [00:59] <astearns_> TabAtkins: so what does that say about you, given your endorsement of page floats?
  18. # [01:01] * astearns_ (tongue firmly in cheek, of course)
  19. # [01:03] <TabAtkins> Using floats for their intended purpose is different from using floats for layout.
  20. # [01:04] <astearns_> page floats and offsets look like they're intended for layout, to me
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  22. # [01:17] <astearns_> fwiw, I think it's more promising to look at how grid layout gets paginated, as a solution for the page floats use cases
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  29. # [01:54] <TabAtkins> astearns_: I mean, that's also needed, for more deterministic page flows. But from what I saw (and it didn't look contrived), page floats work pretty darned well for flowing things around on unpredictably-broken pages.
  30. # [01:55] <astearns_> TabAtkins: I don't mind if someone does decide to implement them. I don't consider them harmful :)
  31. # [01:55] <astearns_> but they fall down pretty quickly once you have more than one of them
  32. # [01:56] <liam> plus they're evil :-)
  33. # [01:57] <liam> or rather, can be evil when used for the layout itself
  34. # [01:57] <astearns_> liam: I'd agree that float-offset is evil
  35. # [01:57] <liam> (we need to figure out top-of-column and top-of-page figures and tables though, which are what traditional designers and typesetters/-ographers mean by "floats")
  36. # [01:58] <liam> (this is very close to page floats but I'm not convinced page floats handles it)
  37. # [01:59] <astearns_> the problem I see is that page floats can probably handle anything you want, as long as you add enough wheels-within-wheels
  38. # [01:59] <astearns_> (offset, defer, etc.)
  39. # [01:59] <liam> well, that's very Ha*kon :)
  40. # [01:59] <astearns_> and that's not a rational way to design a layout system
  41. # [01:59] <liam> oops. my compose key isn't working
  42. # [02:00] <liam> Håkon, there we are
  43. # [02:01] <liam> we spent ages on interactions between floated figures in XSL 2
  44. # [02:02] <astearns_> ah - that's another thing. there are interactions between left/right and top/bottom floats too. no one's specified them, though
  45. # [02:02] <liam> I can't imagine people wanting to implement some of the page float draft either. E.g. example 27 in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-page-floats/#wrapping-around-page-floats needs to be CSS level 26 or so
  46. # [02:03] <liam> especially when combine with balancced columns and copyfitting
  47. # [02:03] <astearns_> liam: that should probably have a deprecated warning on it, use http://figures.spec.whatwg.org/ instead
  48. # [02:06] <liam> that one isn't any better as far as I can see :) there's too much ad hoc-ery going on
  49. # [02:06] <liam> in XSL-FO 2 we decided to handle most of these cases with named "regions"
  50. # [02:07] <liam> (and ruled backwards-spanning out of scope)
  51. # [02:17] <dauwhe> AntennaHouse seems to have implemented quite a bit of page floats: http://www.antennahouse.com/product/ahf60/docs/ahf-float.html
  52. # [02:18] <liam> i'm not surprised, they spent a lot of engineering time on the region/float stuff in the XSL-FO 2 draft, and there's a lot of similarities in functionality I thkn
  53. # [02:18] <dauwhe> makes sense
  54. # [02:20] <dauwhe> float interactions make me think of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_puzzle
  55. # [02:20] <liam> heehee yes
  56. # [02:21] <liam> for technical journals set in 2 balanced columns with top and bottom floats on the page, I think you'd need regions + flows rather than this page float mechanism
  57. # [02:22] <liam> the rule usually being, put the figs/tables at the top of the page unless you've filled the area, in which case put the extras on the bottom
  58. # [02:22] <liam> (for extra points, sort them by height to minimize wasted space)
  59. # [02:22] <dauwhe> liam, did you ever see AutoPage in action?
  60. # [02:23] <dauwhe> It was a Quark Xtension that automated complex layout, with columns, multiple floats, etc.
  61. # [02:23] <liam> oh right
  62. # [02:23] <liam> i was trying to remember
  63. # [02:23] <liam> hmm, that wasn't Keith Erf was it??
  64. # [02:23] <dauwhe> Yep. Do you know Keith?
  65. # [02:23] <liam> i used to, yeah
  66. # [02:24] <liam> and yes, he did show me, and at softquad we had customers using it
  67. # [02:24] <liam> (and also datalogics pager, and CAPS, and many others)
  68. # [02:26] <dauwhe> sometimes it feels like our layout technology is devolving
  69. # [02:26] <liam> well, in some ways it is
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  71. # [02:27] <dauwhe> We'll just have to convince Keith to write a browser rendering engine in LISP
  72. # [02:27] <liam> because we've inherited a very arbitrary sets of properties not really built on a coherent underlying model
  73. # [02:28] <liam> oops, front door
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  126. # [12:04] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I'd prefer vdef 'cuz it's shorter, but valdef is at least shorter than valuedef
  127. # [12:05] <fantasai> TabAtkins: I want to minimize URL boilerplate as much as possible. In this case the main distinction its serving is as a namespace, it's not even that useful as information.
  128. # [12:05] <fantasai> plinss: ^
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  160. # [17:17] <fantasai> TabAtkins: http://www.w3.org/International/track/products/46
  161. # [17:17] <fantasai> TabAtkins: preview on upcoming issues...
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  169. # [17:24] <technommy> sorry wrong cmd
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  188. # [18:51] <dauwhe> get index out of range error from Bikeshed. Update Bikeshed. Problem solved!
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  192. # [18:56] <SimonSapin> dauwhe: bikeshed is updated more often that I use it
  193. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> That might technically be true of me, too.
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  225. # [21:33] <TabAtkins> What does "a18n" stand for?
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  228. # [21:38] <astearns_> a misspelled antiparliamentariann? There doesn't seem to be a 20-letter word that matches that pattern
  229. # [21:39] <astearns_> i18n matches both internationalization and institutionalization
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  231. # [21:49] <TabAtkins> I suspect it's an i18n typo
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  237. # [22:28] <hober> astearns_: also intercrystallization and interdifferentiation
  238. # [22:28] <hober> a18n might be one of anthropomorphization, antiprestidigitation, antitintinnabularian, or autodepolymerization
  239. # [22:28] <hober> or something not in my /usr/share/dict/words
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  241. # [22:29] <TabAtkins> None of those seem likely reasons for a Text update.
  242. # [22:30] <hober> multilingualization is just some mischaracterization of the issue
  243. # [22:33] <dauwhe> antiprestidigitation could be seen as the removal of magic from a layout spec, which would be A Good Thing
  244. # [22:35] <hober> that's s32s!
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  249. # [22:38] <astearns_> autodepolymerization might have some applicability someday
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  261. # [23:25] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  262. # [23:25] * jcraig_ is now known as jcraig
  263. # [23:25] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
  264. # [23:26] * Quits: tommyliu (~tommyjtl@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  265. # [23:27] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
  266. # [23:31] * Joins: rhauck1 (~rhauck@public.cloak)
  267. # [23:33] * Joins: rhauck2 (~rhauck@public.cloak)
  268. # [23:33] * Quits: rhauck1 (~rhauck@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  269. # [23:34] * Quits: ArronEi (~ArronEi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  270. # [23:36] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
  271. # [23:36] * Quits: rhauck (~rhauck@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  272. # [23:42] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (jcraig)
  273. # [23:43] * Quits: liam (liam@public.cloak)
  274. # [23:50] * Joins: ArronEi (~ArronEi@public.cloak)
  275. # [23:59] * Joins: rhauck (~rhauck@public.cloak)
  276. # [23:59] * Quits: rhauck2 (~rhauck@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  277. # [23:59] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
  278. # Session Close: Fri Jul 25 00:00:00 2014

The end :)