/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2014-12-03 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Dec 03 00:00:00 2014
# Session Ident: #css
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# [00:34] <TabAtkins> birtles: Chopped off 75% of the running time, btw.
# [00:35] <TabAtkins> Seeing if there are any other wins I can make.
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# [01:01] <birtles> TabAtkins: excellent, thank you!
# [01:02] <TabAtkins> Love it when a dramatically inefficient algo is masked by a small N, and then a minor change suddenly makes the N much much larger.
# [01:02] <TabAtkins> (In this case, suddenly every single autolink was being checked to make sure its target existed, in a slow way.)
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# [01:43] <birtles> TabAtkins: I updated the spec, works great
# [01:44] <birtles> build time is down to 12~13s for me
# [01:44] <birtles> I suspect things are slower on Windows
# [01:44] <TabAtkins> sweet, that's right in line with the numbers I'm seeing.
# [01:44] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
# [01:44] <TabAtkins> My computer is also *crazy* fast.
# [01:44] <TabAtkins> It builds in a hair over 4s for me.
# [01:45] <TabAtkins> We pack http://www8.hp.com/us/en/campaigns/workstations/z620.html at our desks.
# [01:45] <birtles> yeah, that's possibly faster than what I'm on ;)
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# [08:54] <zcorpan_> is someone planning on attending the call and is interested in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Dec/0003.html ?
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# [13:52] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: it seems we can avoid using the representation for hashless hex color. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=170614#c20
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# [16:10] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: All right. I'll poke on the list to make sure before I rewrite the urange algo to not use the representation.
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# [17:32] * glazou changes topic to 'logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/css/ - 2014-12-03 telcon agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Dec/0043.html'
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# [17:32] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:32] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 28 minutes
# [17:32] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:32] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
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# [17:54] <glazou> Zakim, code?
# [17:54] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou
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# [17:56] <TabAtkins> I'll be a few minutes late, this rain is making the bus run slower than normal.
# [17:56] <glazou> ok TabAtkins
# [17:56] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [17:56] <Zakim> +dael
# [17:56] <Zakim> +glazou
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# [17:57] <dael> ScribeNick: dael
# [17:57] <Zakim> +plinss
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# [18:00] <Zakim> +astearns
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# [18:01] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [18:01] <fantasai> zakim, IPcaller is me
# [18:01] <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
# [18:01] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
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# [18:01] <Rossen_> zakim, microsoft has me
# [18:01] <Zakim> +Rossen_; got it
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# [18:02] <Zakim> +??P56
# [18:02] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
# [18:02] <zcorpan> Zakim: P56 is zcorpan
# [18:02] <MaRakow> Zakim, [Microsoft.a] is me
# [18:02] <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
# [18:03] <zcorpan> Zakim, P56 is zcorpan
# [18:03] <Zakim> sorry, zcorpan, I do not recognize a party named 'P56'
# [18:03] <zcorpan> Zakim, ??P56 is zcorpan
# [18:03] <Zakim> +zcorpan; got it
# [18:03] * krit is able to call in after all
# [18:03] <Zakim> +??P2
# [18:04] <adenilson> Zakim, ??P2 is me.
# [18:04] <Zakim> +adenilson; got it
# [18:04] <Zakim> -BradK
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# [18:04] <Zakim> +krit
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# [18:05] <tantek> good morning #css
# [18:05] <tantek> Zakim, ??P6 is me
# [18:05] <Zakim> I already had ??P6 as [Bloomberg], tantek
# [18:05] <tantek> oops
# [18:05] <Zakim> +??P12
# [18:05] <tantek> Zakim, ??P12 is me
# [18:05] <Zakim> +tantek; got it
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# [18:06] <dael> plinss: Let's get started. Anything to add to the agenda.
# [18:06] <dael> Florian: I mailed a bunch to CSSUI stuff to the list in addition to what we had.
# [18:06] <dael> Topic: Folloup on applying pseudo-classes to labels
# [18:07] * zcorpan TabAtkins please wait a bit with that, i want to look into it a bit more to be sure
# [18:07] <dael> Florian: We disucessed how :hover ec would apply backwards, but I forgot I had mentioned that we might want to do a backwards for pseudo classes. One way would be to put a hook to HTML and make it the same as :active. Another would be to intro a new psuedo class seelctor. A suggestion was :for
# [18:08] <dael> Florian: So do we want to do this?
# [18:08] <andreyr> yes
# [18:08] <dael> tantek: Wha was the use case?
# [18:08] <dael> Florian: I was wondering about it as a paralel. If you have an input element associated with a label using :for
# [18:08] <dael> tantek: So this is a new feature?
# [18:08] <dael> Florian: Yes.
# [18:09] <Rossen_> what do current impls do?
# [18:09] <fantasai> <label for=foo>Label</label> ... <input name=foo id=foo type=checkbox>
# [18:09] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [18:09] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [18:09] <Zakim> -MaRakow
# [18:09] <dael> Florian: The use case is if you have an input element that is invalid and you want to display it in red, you also may want to highlight the label that goes with it.
# [18:09] <fantasai> Florian is proposing propagating the input's state to the <label>
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# [18:09] <dael> glazou: So you to reflect all the prop of one element onto another one.
# [18:09] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [18:09] <Rossen_> zakim, microsoft has me
# [18:09] <Zakim> +Rossen_; got it
# [18:10] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
# [18:10] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
# [18:10] <MaRakow> Zakim, [Microsoft.a] is me
# [18:10] <Zakim> +MaRakow; got it
# [18:10] <dael> Florian: You want to be able to style the label based on the style of the input since you might want to have a similar affect on both pieces.
# [18:10] <Zakim> +TabAtkins
# [18:10] <dael> tantek: Is anyone doing this with JS? I've never seen the effect you're talking about.
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# [18:10] <Zakim> -Florian
# [18:10] * astearns tantek's voice is very faint
# [18:10] <zcorpan> i was going to ask the same thing as TabAtkins asked
# [18:11] * dael is finding you soft too.
# [18:11] <dael> Rossen_: What do current impl do?
# [18:11] * TabAtkins Weird, that was me. I'm on the cell in an office, no noise.
# [18:11] <Florian> trying to dial back in
# [18:11] <dael> tantek: They don't. This is a new feature.
# [18:11] <Zakim> +BradK
# [18:11] <Zakim> -adenilson
# [18:11] <dael> tantek: I would propose...I want ot see one doc ex of someone trying to do this with JS. I've never seen this and unless there's a use case it should be postponed.
# [18:11] <Zakim> +Bert
# [18:11] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
# [18:11] <TabAtkins> Good lord, my phone is the worst.
# [18:12] <Zakim> +??P2
# [18:12] <TabAtkins> I was trying to say that I've done styling of a label based on valid/invalid before.
# [18:12] <dael> Rossen_: I'm with tantek on this one. If there's no clear use case, why are we discussing it.
# [18:12] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [18:12] <Zakim> +antenna
# [18:12] <dael> tantek: I don't want a theoretical use case for this.
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# [18:12] <TabAtkins> I did it post-submit, with PHP, but doing it pre-submit would obviously be good as well.
# [18:12] <dael> ??: I agree with that, for what it's worth.
# [18:12] <zcorpan> s/??/zcorpan/
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# [18:13] <dael> plinss: I think a common use case inform it, but it's not done with invalid. I've created a form where you want to highlight the invalid data. That's used all over the place so there are use cases.
# [18:13] <Zakim> + +1.301.526.aaaa
# [18:13] <Zakim> +Florian
# [18:13] <dael> tantek: I've seen highlighting a form field, but Ive never seen a mod of the label in particular. If you've seen that I'd like a URL to where someone is doing it.
# [18:13] <alex_antennahouse> im 5266461
# [18:13] <Zakim> + +1.805.453.aabb
# [18:13] <dael> plinss: One would be sheppard.
# [18:13] <tantek> URL?
# [18:13] <Florian> Zakim, I am .aaaa
# [18:13] <Zakim> sorry, Florian, I do not see a party named '.aaaa'
# [18:13] <Zakim> +TabAtkins
# [18:13] <Florian> Zakim, I am .aaa
# [18:13] <Zakim> sorry, Florian, I do not see a party named '.aaa'
# [18:13] <dael> plinss: I've done it.
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# [18:14] <dael> plinss: I've seen it in other places too.
# [18:14] <Zakim> +fantasai
# [18:14] <dael> plinss: Anyway.
# [18:14] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
# [18:14] * TabAtkins Fuck it, I'm in IRC the rest of the call.
# [18:14] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [18:14] * TabAtkins No clue why my phone is generating tons of noise.
# [18:14] <Zakim> +ChrisL
# [18:15] <dael> plinss: I'm not sure if it's TabAtkins or fantasai making the noise.
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# [18:15] * ChrisL zakim, mute me
# [18:15] * Zakim ChrisL should now be muted
# [18:15] <Rossen_> TabAtkins: probably for performance reasons it sends less data
# [18:15] <dael> Florian: I dropped and rejoined. While I was away, there was some back and forth on if useful.
# [18:15] <dael> plinss: TabAtkins and I are saying we've done/seen it, but no one else is sounding supportive.
# [18:15] * TabAtkins Rossen_: mobile performance is very important to us
# [18:15] <dael> Florian: So there's this is not important, don't do, do it like :active, or define a new pseudo to do it.
# [18:15] <Zakim> +fantasai
# [18:16] <glazou> Zakim, mute fantasai
# [18:16] <Zakim> fantasai should now be muted
# [18:16] <dael> tantek: And another where we don't know if it's important and if it is, please document a use case on the wiki. Link somewhere where we can see it's used.
# [18:16] <fantasai> It sounds like it'd be useful, no objection to doing more research.
# [18:16] <dael> Florian: I think I found and example on e-mail.
# [18:16] <dael> Florian: There's no issue.
# [18:16] <dael> tantek: Where does selectors track them?
# [18:16] <fantasai> Also need to check Web-compatibility
# [18:16] <dael> Florian: I'll check.
# [18:17] <dael> tantek: So I think we need a use case.
# [18:17] <fantasai> tantek, by email, with the [selectors] tag currently
# [18:17] <dael> Florian: There are def some. I can write them down.
# [18:17] <dael> tantek: Yes, write them down.
# [18:17] * tantek is muted
# [18:17] * tantek is hearing an echo
# [18:17] <dael> Florian: Should we go on to next topic?
# [18:17] <plinss> zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:17] <tantek> lol
# [18:17] <ChrisL> zakim, who is making noise?
# [18:17] <glazou> « I ‘m your father » « Nooooooo ! »
# [18:17] <Zakim> plinss, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: dael (4%), plinss (47%), zcorpan (51%)
# [18:17] * tantek glazou lolol
# [18:17] <ChrisL> zakim, mute zcorpan
# [18:17] <Zakim> zcorpan should now be muted
# [18:17] * zcorpan is muted :-S
# [18:17] <Zakim> ChrisL, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: plinss (31%), glazou (3%), zcorpan (44%)
# [18:18] <Zakim> +Florian.a
# [18:18] <Zakim> -Florian
# [18:18] * tantek glazou better now
# [18:18] <Rossen_> zakim should mute everyone
# [18:18] <dael> Topic: CSS UI Issues
# [18:18] <adenilson> LOL!
# [18:18] * tantek is unmuted
# [18:18] <Zakim> +??P46
# [18:19] * tantek who just joined?
# [18:19] <dael> Florian: Starting with #42. There is an invert value for outline that currently says UAs are allowed to not support, but it's amb as to what they should do when they don't. I'd like to clarify that not support mean.
# [18:19] <Zakim> -zcorpan
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# [18:19] <dael> Florian: Omse UAs do support so we shouldn't remove, but not supporting should mean don't parse. An alt is to parse and compute to currentColor. Thingswould be sane, but we can't use the cascade, I'd say just support or don't and don't parse.
# [18:19] <Zakim> +??P56
# [18:20] <zcorpan> Zakim, ??P56 is zcorpan
# [18:20] <Zakim> +zcorpan; got it
# [18:20] <zcorpan> zakim, who is making noise?
# [18:20] <dael> Florian: Currently in the ML, I wrote that FF fails to parse, chrome parses but doesn't render, safari parses to current color,, IE and Presto do it correctly.
# [18:20] <Zakim> zcorpan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: plinss (5%), [Microsoft] (25%), Florian.a (34%)
# [18:21] <Zakim> + +93016aacc
# [18:21] <dael> Rossen_: You're prop if you don't support, don't support at parse, if you support, support all the way.
# [18:21] <antonp> Zakim, aacc is me
# [18:21] <Zakim> +antonp; got it
# [18:21] <dael> Florian: Yes.
# [18:21] * TabAtkins Literally everyone is making noise.
# [18:21] <dael> plinss: That makes sense as a default.
# [18:21] <dael> Florian: The only diff is that the spec says you can confirm without supporting this.
# [18:21] <fantasai> zakim, unmute me
# [18:21] <Zakim> fantasai should no longer be muted
# [18:21] <dael> ??: The chances that chrome will removing the parising part isn't very high.
# [18:21] <dael> Florian: Why would they not remove it?
# [18:22] <plinss> s/??/krit/
# [18:22] <dael> krit: It means any prop definition isn't supported if there's a reverse part.
# [18:22] <dael> krit: A reverse keyword wouldn't support parsing anymore.
# [18:22] <dael> plinss: They're parsing but not suporting. They can parse and support correctly or stop parsing.
# [18:22] <tantek> q+ to ask if we're considering Presto for exit criteria
# [18:22] * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
# [18:22] * plinss fantasai, you’re adding a lot of background noise
# [18:23] <dael> Florian: Chrome parses and makes it invisable which is just plain bad. Safari is halfway decent, but it's not what the user is asking for.
# [18:23] * fantasai did that help?
# [18:23] * tantek fantasai yes
# [18:23] <dael> ??? Do we know what the web compat impact is?
# [18:23] * fantasai no idea. not very loud here
# [18:23] <dael> Florian: Yeah.
# [18:23] <zcorpan> s/???/zcorpan/
# [18:23] <dael> tantek: Are we considering Presto for CR exit? Can it could as one of two impl?
# [18:23] <dael> plinss: If it's in pub release I don't see why it wouldn't.
# [18:23] * ChrisL damning with faint praise "halfway decent, but"
# [18:24] <dael> Florian: It's not making active progress, but it's been shipped and still being shipped.
# [18:24] <dael> tantek: Okay. It sounds like we have interop between IE and presto as spec'ed. That argues for keeping it. It sounds like we need to tighten spec lang for if you don't support.
# [18:24] <dael> Florian: I agree. That's what I'd prefer.
# [18:24] <ChrisL> it was a fair question re Presto but current rules mean we allow it
# [18:24] <dael> plinss: I didn't hear anyone say drop.
# [18:24] <dael> tantek: There was some on ml.
# [18:25] <dael> fantasai: We might need to mark as optional since I remember some impl don't want to.
# [18:25] <Bert> (Make '@supports (outline: invert) {...}' useful.)
# [18:25] <dael> Florian: Yes, it sis option. What's not clear is what it means by don't support it.
# [18:25] <dael> fantasai: Than we need to change initial value.
# [18:25] <dael> Florian: That's taken care of.
# [18:25] <dael> tantek: This is UA specific.
# [18:25] <astearns> s/sis option/is optional/
# [18:26] <dael> Florian: It already says if not initial is currentColor. I don't know if that's good, but it's what people do currently
# [18:26] <dael> tantek: Is anyone in Blink or Webkit willing to drop or fix their impl?
# [18:26] <TabAtkins> Ours is broke as hell, so yeah, we can fix.
# [18:26] <dael> Florian: I hope so because what it is now is terrible.
# [18:26] <tantek> Thank you TabAtkins
# [18:27] <dael> tantek: So initial value is the only question?
# [18:27] <Zakim> -??P2
# [18:27] <dael> Florian: The spec says that you support it or initial value is currentColor and that's what propoer impl do. Chrome and Safari use currentColor as the initial value.
# [18:27] <dael> tantek: Then the q is, one poss is to always change to currentColor.
# [18:27] <dael> Florian: We could.
# [18:28] <dael> tantek: We simplify for web and impl so that if it's not spec it just works that way. If they want invert they can try explicitly.
# [18:28] <Zakim> +??P2
# [18:28] <dael> plinss: You're breaking our two impl and one won't be fixed.
# [18:28] <adenilson> Zakim, ??P2 is me.
# [18:28] <Zakim> +adenilson; got it
# [18:28] <dael> tantek: Presto isn't maintained.
# [18:28] <dael> Florian: For spec work, hardly.
# [18:28] <dael> Rossen_: TabAtkins said they'll fix. Either drop or fix.
# [18:29] <dael> Florian: Chrome stated they won't impl. Someone on the ML from Apple said they will not invert colors. That wasn't about the parsing, but they won't actually invert.
# [18:29] <dael> Florian: It plays poorly with compisition.
# [18:30] <dael> tantek: Halfway supported isn't useful. There shouldn't be parse and don't support. That's why I want the opinion...I know TabAtkins said he'd fix, but would this make it easier. For Rossen_ do you have backcompat to change initial value to currentColor.
# [18:30] <dael> Rossen_: Don't know.
# [18:30] <ChrisL> tab, tantek is asking how will this be "fixed" - remove? implement?
# [18:30] <dael> Florian: If you do support invert it is better.
# [18:30] <dael> tantek: Are there things where we change initial value from one level to another?
# [18:30] * Bert is reminded of the ugly problem with 'position: fixed' in IE a long time ago: it was parsed, but didn't work, and thus provided no easy way to provide a fallback.
# [18:30] <dael> Florian: I don't know.
# [18:30] <dael> plinss: I have a vague recollection yes, but I don't remember when.
# [18:30] <dael> tantek: I don't rememebr doing it and it feel confusing to webdev.
# [18:31] <dael> plinss: I'm not hearing strong consensus about what to do with initial value, but I hear that browsers that don't support it shouldn't parse it.
# [18:31] <dael> tantek: Sounds reasonable.
# [18:31] <dael> krit: If you don't support invert...?
# [18:32] <dael> plinss: If you don't support than the initial value is currentColor. The bahavior of not parsing if you don't support it is how CSS should work and if that's not spec somewhere it should be.
# [18:32] <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS/#partial
# [18:32] <dael> Florian: The spec says you conform if you don't support.
# [18:32] <fantasai> It's part of the boilerplate for all specs
# [18:32] <dael> tantek: Optional shouldn't be expalined in CSS UI. Do we have a def for that somewhere?
# [18:32] <BradK> I have to leave early again, sorry. Bye.
# [18:32] <dael> plinss: I don't know. There should be boilerplate.
# [18:33] <Zakim> -BradK
# [18:33] <dael> RESOLVED: Update the spec to make it more clear what optional means in the current spec
# [18:33] <tantek> CSS3-UI issue 42: define "invert" as optional per http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS/#partial
# [18:33] <Florian> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Nov/0494.html
# [18:33] <dael> Florian: Next topic is here.
# [18:33] <ChrisL> in current spec or in all specs?
# [18:33] <plinss> s/I don't know. There should be/fantasai pointed out that it’s in the /
# [18:34] <dael> Florian: It was cuggested that it's bad for authors to completely turn off outlines on focused elements. It's either a usablility of a11y req. The suggestion is that outlines can't be invisiable on focused elements unless they provide alt highlightin.
# [18:34] <tantek> ok with a note
# [18:34] <dael> tantek: I would be okay with a note
# [18:35] <glazou> echo you must not
# [18:35] <plinss> zakim, who is making noise?
# [18:35] * tantek whoa echo
# [18:35] * tantek is muted
# [18:35] <Zakim> plinss, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: dael (10%), antenna (14%), glazou (45%), zcorpan (75%)
# [18:35] <plinss> zakim, mute zcorpan
# [18:35] <Zakim> zcorpan should now be muted
# [18:35] <tantek> Zakim how not to have a bad day
# [18:35] <tantek> Zakim, how not to have a bad day
# [18:35] <Zakim> I don't understand 'how not to have a bad day', tantek
# [18:35] <ChrisL> ???: Yeyeyeye SI I I I wowowuwouwouldldldld suppooorsuporsuport IIttITT ITT
# [18:36] * zcorpan sorry. i don't know why that happens, i had my mic muted
# [18:36] <dael> Florian: I'm okay witha note, but TabAtkins suggested we could make it a mut level so validators could pick it up. We do have must/must not sometimes. It seems appropriate, but a note is a start.
# [18:36] <dael> Florian: Other opinions?
# [18:36] <dael> s/mut/must
# [18:36] * tantek is trying to listen and read
# [18:36] <dael> plinss: Anyone?
# [18:37] <ChrisL> advisement means "do not ignore this"
# [18:37] <dael> fantasai: Must seems fine to me. Use the ?? class, not the note. It should be a conformace criteria. It's not a non-normative statement.
# [18:37] <fantasai> s/??/advisement/
# [18:37] <ChrisL> s/??/advisement/
# [18:37] <dael> Florian: We should says something. I think it's reasonable to go as far as must.
# [18:37] <dael> tantek: I'm reading the org e-mail and it seems like that's something we can sight and make it spec ofr outline.
# [18:38] <dael> Florian: I went beyond just the width since there's a bunch of ways to go invisiable. I'd like to say whatever way you make it invisiable you can't without alt.
# [18:38] <dael> tantek: So authors must not hide outlines on focused elements unless they provide and alt highlight mech for focused elements
# [18:38] <dael> plinss: Author or UA?
# [18:38] <dael> tantek: Author.
# [18:38] <Florian> Author
# [18:38] <dael> Florian: Author.
# [18:39] <dael> tantek: If that prop is good, are there obj?
# [18:39] <dael> Florian: I have a very similar prop. It's almost the same sentence.
# [18:39] <dael> tantek: And I'd provide examples so than we can put warnings in validators.
# [18:39] <dael> plinss: Obj?
# [18:39] <Florian> As the outline on elements in the ‘:focus’ state is depended on by keyboard users for interaction with the page, authors should not make the outline invisible on such elements without making sure an alternative highlighting mechanism is provided.
# [18:39] <Florian> s/should/must/
# [18:40] <dael> RESOLVED: Authors must not hide outlines on focused elements unless they provide and alt highlight mech for focused elements
# [18:40] <tantek> CSS3-UI issue 43: Add author conformance clause Authors must not hide outlines on focused elements unless they provide and alt highlight mech for focused elements (e.g. outline-width:0 or outline-style:none)
# [18:40] <dael> Florian: Next one is, the cursor prop takes a list of images, but it's just taking urls. The reasonable thing is to accept image production, not url so we can get access to gradiants, etc.
# [18:41] <dael> Florian: Based on the ML everyone agrees this is the eventual right thing, but it's not agreed on if this should be in 3 or 4. There's currently not enough impl of the generalized version to pass to rec. I understand, but I'm worried if we just start >uri> people won't do the broader impl.
# [18:41] <dael> Florian: The comprimise is say <uri> and in the future we're expecting to go to image.
# [18:42] <dael> fantasai: CSS Values and Units I believe has image production defined as <uri> We can say if you support image values lvl 3 you should support as image.
# [18:42] <zcorpan> i have to go now
# [18:42] <Zakim> -zcorpan
# [18:42] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:43] <dael> Florian: There's a bunch of broswers that support image, but not on cursor. So if you support image you must apply here won't pass. In that respect I'm sympathetic to the arguement, but I don't want to stop impl the fuller. That's why I say stic with <uri> and say alt you an use <image> if they want.
# [18:43] <ChrisL> zakim, unmute me
# [18:43] <Zakim> ChrisL should no longer be muted
# [18:43] <dael> tantek: In general it's bad form to predict the future. It should be more like UAs may support <image> in addition to <uri> We don't need forward predicting, we can just say may.
# [18:44] <TabAtkins> I'm fine with speccing <url> and adding a note saying that it will be upgraded to <image> in UI 4, and browsers should feel free to implement fuller <image> support.
# [18:44] <dael> ChrisL: The way to indicate the future is put it in level 4. That doesn't predict, it actualized.
# [18:44] <dael> Florian: I haven't made level 4 yet.
# [18:44] <dael> ChrisL: Dump this in 4 and make it in 4 so people know where it's going.
# [18:44] <dael> tantek: I think we want to have some kind of suggestion in level 3.
# [18:44] <dael> Florian: I like tantek proposal.
# [18:44] <dael> krit: I agree with it defined as a may.
# [18:44] <andreyr> +1 for proposal
# [18:44] <ChrisL> zakim, mute me
# [18:44] <Zakim> ChrisL should now be muted
# [18:45] <dael> plinss: I'm okay with a may, but I'd liek it to refer to normal image production. Say it should use image productiona nd make the image optional.
# [18:45] <dael> plinss: I would like it to talk about the image production in values and units.
# [18:45] <dael> tantek: Normatively refer to image production is part of the prop
# [18:45] <dael> plinss: Obj?
# [18:45] <dael> RESOLVED: UAs may support <image> in addition to <uri> and refer to image production as part of the text.
# [18:46] <dael> tantek: Which issue was that?
# [18:46] <dael> Florian: 44
# [18:46] <Florian> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Nov/0501.html
# [18:46] <tantek> CSS3-UI issue 44: UAs may support <image> in addition to <uri> and refer to image production as part of the text. (link <image> to normative image production in values and uits)
# [18:47] <dael> Florian: Next one, again on cursor, you can have a bunch of images/uri but you can also use the coordinates, but the spec doesn't have any limits on that. However there isn't full interop. You can either plant at actual cursor or ignore it if it's a negative. It seems like planting at the cursor is the better optino if the actual value is out of bounds.
# [18:47] <dael> tantek: That's reasonable. That seems uncontroversial. Clamping.
# [18:47] <dael> plinss: Diff opinions?
# [18:47] <dael> Bert: How do you clamp?
# [18:48] * tantek hello?
# [18:48] * TabAtkins tantek: pong?
# [18:48] <fantasai> Bert: do you calculate the position by angle, or ...?
# [18:48] <Zakim> -tantek
# [18:48] <dael> Bert: Do you clamp each cood indiv?
# [18:48] <dael> Florian: Indiv was what I had in mind.
# [18:48] <TabAtkins> We can test, but indiv is likely what's implemented, and it's sufficiently simple to work fine.
# [18:48] <dael> Florian: I hadn't tested on that. I suspect it's indiv but I don't know.
# [18:48] <dael> plinss: Do you know microsofts?
# [18:48] <dael> Florian: I don't.
# [18:48] <Zakim> +??P0
# [18:49] <tantek> zakim, ??P0 is me
# [18:49] <Zakim> +tantek; got it
# [18:49] <TabAtkins> This is just handling an error case, anyway.
# [18:49] <dael> plinss: Let's resolve we clamp imdividually and if you have other findings we'll revisit
# [18:49] <dael> plinss: Obj>
# [18:49] <dael> RESOLVED: clamp cursor coordinates individually when invalid.
# [18:49] <Florian> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Nov/0532.html
# [18:49] <tantek> CSS3-UI issue 44: clamp x y cursor hotspot values at edge of image
# [18:49] <dael> Florian: We don't have dbaron right? THen I'd like to skip 48.
# [18:50] <dael> Florian: 49. Some browsers, when you have ellipesed and you hover it will be explanded, but other browsers don't support that. Having the spec normatively say which you have would support that. I don't care which.
# [18:50] <dael> tantek: Any kind of auto tool tip would get obj from authors. They don't want random popups. Webkits does this?
# [18:51] <dael> Florian: If you have over text with an ellips, Blink, I believe has it active.
# [18:51] <dael> tantek: Over the whole line?
# [18:51] <dael> Florian: Yes.
# [18:51] <Florian> http://jsbin.com/quhisipiba/1/watch?output
# [18:51] <dael> Florian: I'll check, but I think so. You can test this.
# [18:52] <dael> Florian: In this ex we have two lines or text with ellipsis and if you hover anywhere you get the toolkit
# [18:52] <dael> Florian: As far as I know tis is often complained about by people trying to create the toolkit for other browsers and end up with two.
# [18:52] <dael> tantek: That sounds like a request for support.
# [18:52] <dael> Florian: It's unclear if everyone wants that
# [18:52] <dael> plinss: And How do you detect if the UA is doing that.
# [18:52] <dael> Florian: UA sniffing?
# [18:53] <dael> tantek: We had generation of tooltips in a previous draft. Do we have user selectors that attempt to style tooltips?
# [18:53] <dael> Florian: I don't think so. There was a lot of discussion, but it didn't conclude on anything.
# [18:53] <dael> tantek: Other thing we can do is...no, never mind.
# [18:53] <dael> plinss: I would like to see a way of creating tooltips with a :hover and than they can override
# [18:54] <dael> tantek: I think it was generated conent at some point.
# [18:54] <dael> Florian: There was proposal, but than there was disagreement as to if it's just text, or have a region...
# [18:54] <dael> tantek: The obvious thing to do is just text, so that kind of disc is annoying.
# [18:54] <dael> Florian: So should we tackle the whole discussino to solve this, or until then should we say which way broswers should behave?
# [18:55] <dael> tantek: I don't want to rec UA behavior, I'd rather give authors a hook or control.
# [18:55] <dael> Florian: The hook is difficult.
# [18:55] <dael> plinss: I understand the concern. I'm loathe to tell broswers not to put a tooltip or say mst without a way to supporess.
# [18:55] <dael> tantek: That's a better desc of my thoughts, thanks plinss
# [18:55] <dael> Florian: So despite non-ideal intrerop, you want to leave this?
# [18:56] <dael> tantek: There's lots of not interop.
# [18:56] <dael> Florian: I'm not obj to not defining, I just want to be clear. If we're not addressing we need to be clear.
# [18:57] <dael> tantek: One ave is in terms of a11y, when you ellipse content it's not nec viewable or accessable, so we can encourage UAs to provide a mech to access that content. There's one in the spec if you support copy/paste. Selecting the ellipsis is the same as selecting everything.
# [18:57] <dael> flo
# [18:57] <Zakim> -MaRakow
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# [18:57] <dael> Florian: Even and encouragement isn't enough. We need a way for authors to turn off
# [18:57] <dael> Florian: I think I'm fine with undef for now with somewhere it saying we want to deal with this eventually.
# [18:57] <dael> tantek: I'm not sure that helps.
# [18:58] <dael> tantek: Our efforts should go into a fix. If there's a prop we can fix it, but elsewise we should leave it.
# [18:58] <dael> Florian: We should resolve to not address it in CSS3 UI if we're going to do that.
# [18:58] <Zakim> -adenilson
# [18:58] <dael> RESOLVED: not address this issue in CSS3 UI
# [18:58] <dael> plinss: Anything else we can do in 2 min?
# [18:58] <dael> Florian: Not from me.
# [18:59] <Zakim> - +1.301.526.aaaa
# [18:59] <Zakim> -dauwhe
# [18:59] <dael> plinss: That's it for the week. Thanks everyone.
# [18:59] <Zakim> -ChrisL
# [18:59] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [18:59] <Zakim> -glazou
# [18:59] <Zakim> -krit
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# [18:59] <Zakim> -tantek
# [18:59] <Zakim> -antonp
# [18:59] <Zakim> -MikeMiller
# [18:59] <Zakim> -Florian.a
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# [18:59] <Zakim> -??P46
# [18:59] * Parts: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
# [18:59] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [18:59] <Zakim> - +1.805.453.aabb
# [18:59] <Zakim> -astearns
# [18:59] <Zakim> -antenna
# [18:59] <Zakim> -dael
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# [18:59] <Zakim> -plinss
# [18:59] <Zakim> -Bert
# [18:59] <Zakim> -fantasai
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# [19:00] <Zakim> -[Bloomberg]
# [19:00] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:00] <Zakim> Attendees were dael, glazou, MikeMiller, plinss, dauwhe, astearns, Florian, fantasai, BradK, Rossen_, MaRakow, zcorpan, adenilson, krit, [Bloomberg], tantek, SteveZ, [IPcaller],
# [19:00] <Zakim> ... [Microsoft], TabAtkins, Bert, antenna, +1.301.526.aaaa, +1.805.453.aabb, ChrisL, +93016aacc, antonp
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# [19:16] <Florian> tantek: I've marked issue 49 as rejected in the wiki (and included a link to the new mails).
# [19:17] <Florian> Not sure how you want to handle rejected issues in the disposition of comments, so feel free to move it to the other wiki in the way you prefer
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# [19:25] <tantek> Thanks Florian
# [19:28] <Florian> I'll add the missing links in the wiki for the other issues
# [19:28] <Florian> sorry for not doing it in the first place
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# [19:52] <TabAtkins> krit: https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed/issues/272
# [19:52] <TabAtkins> I can't reproduce your error.
# [19:53] <krit> TabAtkins: well, if the minimal bs works for you, it probability is fixed
# [19:53] <TabAtkins> Okay, I'll close it then. ^_^
# [19:53] <TabAtkins> Trying to burn down all the issues that weren't opened by me.
# [19:53] <TabAtkins> Now working on your old IDL support issues.
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# [22:21] <TabAtkins> plinss: Can you expose Constructor to the markupName function? Right now there's no hook for me to mark it up with.
# [22:21] <TabAtkins> The arguments and their types show up for markup, but not the "Constructor" word, which is where I want to hang the dfn/link, like I would for a method.
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# [22:42] <TabAtkins> plinss: I'd also like it if the word "stringifier" was somehow exposed, so I could link it up with a "stringification behavior" dfn.
# [22:42] <TabAtkins> And similarly with the other productions like setlike/etc.
# [22:44] <TabAtkins> (You need to define stringification behavior manually if you don't name your stringifier function.)
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# [23:10] <plinss> TabAtkins: ok, will take a look
# [23:15] <TabAtkins> plinss: Btw, do you prefer me to file issues or ask here in chat? I recognize that I might be being inconsiderate, since I definitely prefer issues.
# [23:16] <plinss> TabAtkins: whatever’s easier for you, if something is a bigger change that I may take some time to get to, then an issue may be better so I can track it, but for quick changes it’s no big deal
# [23:16] <TabAtkins> kk
# [23:16] <plinss> PullRequests are welcome too :-)
# [23:17] <TabAtkins> Yeah, finally forked you. ^_^
# [23:22] <Florian> tantek: I've added links to all issues in the wiki for which I had started threads
# [23:24] <Florian> Also, I've made a separate section to list the issues with pending edits separately from the ones that are open / under discussion. Same wiki page, but separate section https://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-ui?&#issues-pending-edits
# [23:25] <Florian> should make it easier see which is which
# [23:31] <tantek> Florian thanks so uch!
# [23:32] <tantek> ok - that's fine - keeping them inline is fine too
# [23:32] <tantek> I've been roughly trying to go in order in a FIFO way
# [23:32] <tantek> maybe cherry picking for easy edits etc.
# [23:34] <Florian> yes, it wasn't absolutely necessary, but made things easier at a glance, either when looking for resolved issues to edit in (for you) or issues to bring to the WG to get a resolution (where I can help).
# [23:40] <tantek> that's cool too
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The end :)