/irc-logs / w3c / #css / 2015-01-28 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Jan 28 00:00:00 2015
# Session Ident: #css
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# [00:10] <TabAtkins> Oh wow, I'm not sure what happened, but this attempted Bikeshedding of css-content messed up the 'content' propertly something fierce.
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# [01:09] <plinss> TabAtkins: so the Bikeshed output is going to have data-lt instead of title as well?
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# [01:16] <dbaron> TabAtkins, not using title sounds great... hope the stuff I was landing didn't mess with it
# [01:16] <TabAtkins> dbaron: np, I'm adjusting all the specs.
# [01:16] <dbaron> TabAtkins, I just landed conversion of css-overflow to bikeshed
# [01:17] <TabAtkins> plinss: Yeah, everything will be data-lt. I'm gonna convert all the CSSWG specs, and a number of other Bikeshed-using authors know about the change.
# [01:21] <tantek> TabAtkins: could I ask you to hold off on CSS UI for a dayish since I'm editing for publication tomorrow?
# [01:21] <TabAtkins> tantek: Sure, I think I won't finish until tomorrow anyway.
# [01:22] <tantek> sigh, who changed the subject to "test"?
# [01:22] <plinss> TabAtkins: Ok, I’ll update Shepherd to read data-lt for the linking text instead of title, let me know when to flip that switch on my end
# [01:22] <TabAtkins> plinss: kk
# [01:22] <TabAtkins> tantek: Fn15, whoever that is.
# [01:22] <plinss> Tantek: https://log.csswg.org/irc.w3.org/css/2015-01-26/#e512820
# [01:22] <tantek> so a troll likely
# [01:23] <plinss> (because I know how much you love javascript)
# [01:23] <astearns> or someone new to irc commands testing things out
# [01:23] <tantek> hah!
# [01:23] <TabAtkins> Not... necesarily? But maybe, who knows.
# [01:23] <tantek> plinss: in particular, *requiring* JS :)
# [01:23] <plinss> so, basically you don’t use 95%+ of the web?
# [01:24] <tantek> plinss - no I use much more of the web because I'm not waiting for a bunch of inefficient, mostly spammy, poorly coded JS across the majority of sites
# [01:25] <tantek> I do whitelist a few things here and there using NoScript
# [01:27] <tantek> plinss, props for logging the "changes topic" lines
# [01:27] <plinss> :-)
# [01:27] <plinss> fwiw, most of the apps I’ve written on csswg.org don’t require js for users (admin pages do), but as I’ve been going I’m less reluctant to write extra code just to support you and Bert…
# [01:27] <plinss> so maybe whitelist csswg.org?
# [01:27] <tantek> yeah I'm very close to just doing that
# [01:28] <tantek> just for being lumped in with Bert. (cc: glazou)
# [01:28] * tantek changes topic to 'logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/css - 2015-01-21 telcon http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jan/0369.html (JS only logs: https://log.csswg.org/irc.w3.org/css/today )'
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# [01:31] <tantek> plinss - and in addition to whitelisting csswg.org, I'm also collecting use-cases to my list of "document how to do this without JS" task list (AKA maybe future blog post material).
# [01:31] <tantek> because if one is going to take such a position (JS off should work), it's only fair to document how to do so
# [01:32] <plinss> tantek: fair enough
# [01:33] <tantek> because frankly, that "art" has been lost, and is far too hard (than "just" using a JS framework that makes everything magic easy to build and ship to 99+% of users)
# [01:34] <tantek> hoping that some of those use-cases will also be presentation-specific and drive needs for CSS recipes or new features
# [01:36] <plinss> agreed, maybe the TAG should make a “best practices” doc…
# [01:36] <liam> plinss, would that be like taking a cold bath every morning and running five to ten miles before breakfast?
# [01:37] <liam> (in other words, if tag says, do this harder thing because it's good for you, not clear to me it'll get wild enthusiastic uptake)
# [01:37] <tantek> plinss - hah - that would be great - if the TAG practiced best practices on their own personal websites ;)
# [01:37] <tantek> (present company excepted of course from such snark)
# [01:37] <liam> heh well, that too, there's tag.w3.org now right?
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# [01:39] <tantek> liam - you're right the "do this harder thing because it's good for you" is not very effective
# [01:39] <tantek> that's the point, such techniques *must* be developed to be not much (if at all) harder
# [01:39] <tantek> and *hopefully* easier
# [01:48] <plinss> TabAtkins: debating if I should still take linking text from title attributes for older specs on /TR…
# [01:48] <plinss> maybe look for data-lt first, if not present use title?
# [01:48] <tantek> plinss sounds like good backcompat design
# [01:49] <TabAtkins> tantek: I'm purposely avoiding the back-compat design in Bikeshed right now, but that might be the wrong decision.
# [01:49] <tantek> TabAtkins: I think case by case for backcompat is totally fair
# [01:49] <plinss> for Bikeshed source you can not worry about back-compat here
# [01:49] <tantek> even if that means most cases no
# [01:49] <TabAtkins> plinss: If you detect even a single data-lt attribute, consider it using the new stuff.
# [01:50] <TabAtkins> plinss: The issues I want to fix for adding titles to things all add them to links, which can have data-lt already.
# [01:51] <TabAtkins> (I really want the grammar links to have a title of their meaning, like "one or more", etc. And astearns has an open issue to have <foo> have a title of the things it expands to.)
# [01:51] <plinss> sure, that’s all fine
# [01:52] <plinss> but my concern is being able to link to older specs that aren’t going to be updated, like SVG 1.1
# [01:52] <TabAtkins> But yeah, I think the "if there's any data-lt, use data-lt, otherwise use title" rule would work fine.
# [01:52] <plinss> so I’d have to pre-scan the spec looking for data-lt?
# [01:52] <TabAtkins> Dunno how your stuff works - I'd just run a selector over the doc.
# [01:53] <plinss> k
# [01:55] <TabAtkins> plinss: Alternately, I could add a <meta name=bikeshed-version value=???> element to the <head>, which you could key off of.
# [01:56] <plinss> hmmm, that might come in useful for other things...
# [01:56] <plinss> won’t hurt to have anyway
# [01:56] <TabAtkins> Alright, I'll add it.
# [01:57] <plinss> what value are you going to use for the version info?
# [01:58] <tantek> meta--
# [01:58] <TabAtkins> Let's just say 1.0
# [01:58] <TabAtkins> tantek: IT'S HOW YOU COMMUNICATE METADATA IN HTML, SHUT UP
# [02:00] <plinss> TabAtkins: how about 1.0.0 then? and use http://semver.org/
# [02:00] <TabAtkins> plinss: Yeah, planning on sem-versioning.
# [02:01] <TabAtkins> Havent' had a reason to start yet.
# [02:01] <tantek> TabAtkins: http://tantek.com/2015/023/t2/mo-meta-mo-problems-tshirt
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# [02:19] * plinss changes topic to 'logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/css - 2015-01-28 telcon https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jan/0544.html (JS only logs: https://log.csswg.org/irc.w3.org/css/today )'
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# [07:26] <fantasai> tantek: I propose "The Excessively Impatient Troll"
# [07:26] * fantasai is impressed with the level of impatience, it's completely illogical
# [07:27] <fantasai> In any case, he's posting a legit spec issue with a straightforward fix, so I added it to the agenda...
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# [07:37] <tantek> fantasai - (nearly) all trolls have more time on their hands than the collective "you" do
# [07:37] <tantek> there must be some other distinctive aspect to their behavior
# [07:39] <tantek> aside: in going through CSS3-UI issues - and referenced emails - goodness gracious people write extensive essays what they could say in a couple of sentences
# [07:39] <tantek> speaking of excessively impatient - how about excessively patient as a problem instead?
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# [08:03] * fantasai has qualified, on occasion
# [08:03] <fantasai> I've gotten more impatient over time, I think :)
# [08:03] <zcorpan> anyone know what to do about "FATAL ERROR: Functions/methods must end with () in their linking text, got 'dom-MediaList-item'." ?
# [08:04] * fantasai has no clue, unless MediaList.item() is a thing
# [08:04] * fantasai and is being referenced without its parens thereby making bikeshed unhappy
# [08:06] <tantek> fantasai++ for getting more impatient
# [08:09] <fantasai> it is not always a good thing
# [08:09] <fantasai> focus requires patience
# [08:09] <tantek> the nice thing is that when it's not a good thing, you usually find out quickly (the nature of impatience)
# [08:09] <tantek> ah that's a different problem. that's not impatience, that's distraction.
# [08:10] <tantek> I'm quite familiar with that. :/
# [08:10] <fantasai> well, it requires both
# [08:12] <tantek> impatience can help focus
# [08:12] <tantek> distraction is a way of faking patience
# [08:12] <fantasai> if I am impatient with something that is by nature a meticulous and somewhat tedious process, then I can't sink into it, get distracted easily, don't get it done, and don't have fun
# [08:12] * fantasai doesn't understand what tantek just said, it seems backwards
# [08:13] * fantasai tacks on "and get frustrated" to the end of that list
# [08:14] <tantek> being impatient pushes you to find shorter solutions with fewer steps
# [08:15] <tantek> whereas if you're patient you end up in the trap of endlessly or lengthily discussing things. or both.
# [08:15] <tantek> which explains some of the expositional essays in www-style. goodness gracious.
# [08:17] <tantek> short version: life is short. be impatient.
# [08:45] <fantasai> lol
# [08:45] <fantasai> ok, fair enough, I guess that works for some kinds of things as well
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# [10:38] <zcorpan> http://w3c-test.org/submissions/1427/cssom/serialize-values.html - how should background-position: 5% top be serialized? any opinions? i think the background-position spec says keywords compute to percentages, but firefox round-trips keywords
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# [12:00] <tantek> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-ui/ won'tload for some reason.
# [12:00] <tantek> "Warning: mysqli_connect(): (08004/1040): Too many connections in /sites/csswg.org/drafts/htdocs/drafts/core/DBConnection.php on line 138"
# [12:01] <tantek> it needs a redirect to http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-ui/
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# [13:56] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: what should i do about FATAL ERROR: No 'idl-name' refs found for 'EmptyString'. ?
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# [15:06] <zcorpan> no bikeshed fatal errors!! (but a few things commented out)
# [15:06] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: the above is about [TreatNullAs=EmptyString]
# [15:07] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: also having trouble with [PutForwards=mediaText]
# [15:08] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: just reply here, i'll read the logs
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# [16:03] <astearns> tantek: how about 'premature escalation troll'?
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# [16:50] <dauwhe> astearns: that's very good.
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# [17:27] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Oh, weird. I'll have to tweak BS to not do that. For now, though, just put EmptyString into Ignored Terms.
# [17:32] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: For the "Functions must end with () in their linking text" error, was the solution just to do what Bikeshed asked for in the error?
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# [17:52] <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
# [17:52] <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
# [17:52] <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:52] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, glazou
# [17:56] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [17:56] <Zakim> +plinss
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# [17:57] <glazou> Zakim, code?
# [17:57] <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), glazou
# [17:57] <Zakim> + +43.134.001.00aaaa
# [17:57] <Zakim> +??P7
# [17:57] <glazou> Zakim, ??P7 is me
# [17:57] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
# [17:58] <Zakim> +MikeMiller
# [17:58] <plinss> zakim, aaaa is sanja
# [17:58] <Zakim> +sanja; got it
# [17:59] <plinss> http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/info/name.php3
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# [18:00] <murakami> zakim, ??P13 is me
# [18:00] <Zakim> +murakami; got it
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# [18:00] <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P44 is me
# [18:00] <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
# [18:00] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
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# [18:00] <gregwhitworth> Zakim, Microsoft is me
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# [18:01] <adenilson> Zakim, ??P28 is me.
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# [18:03] * dauwhe we're muffled by the piles of snow around us
# [18:03] <Zakim> +??P61
# [18:03] * SimonSapin dauwhe, or not :)
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# [18:04] <tantek> zakim, ??p65 is me
# [18:04] <Zakim> +tantek; got it
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# [18:04] * Bert zakim, ??P61 is me
# [18:04] * Zakim +Bert; got it
# [18:04] <glazou> Zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:04] <Zakim> glazou, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: [IPcaller] (40%), Bert (26%), TabAtkins (46%)
# [18:04] <tgraham> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
# [18:04] <Zakim> +tgraham; got it
# [18:04] * Bert zakim, mute me
# [18:04] * Zakim Bert should now be muted
# [18:04] <dael> plinss: Let's get started. Morning/evening/afternoon. Anything to add to the agenda?
# [18:04] <glazou> plinss: next week’s call
# [18:05] <dael> dbaron: One thing is I'm hoping to ask for transitions to LC/CR relatively to, prob at the F2F.
# [18:05] * Zakim hears Bert's hand down
# [18:05] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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# [18:05] <dael> fantasai: Can we push a WD to TR first?
# [18:05] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [18:05] <dael> fantasai: Is it up to date?
# [18:05] <dael> dbaron: I don't think there's need to push another WD.
# [18:05] <Rossen_> zakim, microsoft has me
# [18:05] <Zakim> +Rossen_; got it
# [18:05] <dael> fantasai: The things we should look at are on TR?
# [18:05] <dael> dbaron: They're in the ED.
# [18:05] <dael> fantasai: I think it would be good to push to TR and make a broad announcement.
# [18:06] <dael> dbaron: Most of the updates are for impl.
# [18:06] <dael> tantek: I agree with dbaron. If it's ready to go, that's how you get people's attention. Just go.
# [18:06] <dael> plinss: Anything else?
# [18:06] <dael> plinss: I'm going to talk about the F2F. Both glazou and I will be on a plane during next week's call, so I propose we cancel.
# [18:06] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [18:07] <dael> plinss: We'll need more items for thea genda, so please update the wiki. If there's any last minute logisitics, please bring it up.
# [18:07] <dael> Topic: Where is the "complete document"
# [18:07] <Zakim> +koji
# [18:07] * Bert zakim, unmute me
# [18:07] * Zakim Bert should no longer be muted
# [18:07] <dael> plinss: TabAtkins you were talking about this on www-style?
# [18:07] <TabAtkins> No one can hear me...
# [18:07] <dael> ??: Is there anything else becides turning this into a gutted note?
# [18:07] * plinss no, we can’t
# [18:07] <Bert> q+ to support fanatasi's suggestion
# [18:07] * Zakim sees Bert on the speaker queue
# [18:07] <dael> fantasai: I think it should be a redirect
# [18:07] <astearns> s/??/florian/
# [18:07] * glazou in the w3c cyberspace, nobody can hear poor TabAtkins ;-)
# [18:08] <dael> fantasai: A gutted note isn't useful to anyone. A redirect will put people some place userful.
# [18:08] * TabAtkins ...I had muted myself, because I"m dumb.
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# [18:08] <dael> Florian: You'd have the link to the old discussion if there was anything useful.
# [18:08] <dauwhe> +1 to fantasai
# [18:08] <dbaron> /TR/CSS/ is almost 5 years old at this point
# [18:08] <dael> tantek: I agree with fantasai. Just point to the thing people are looking for. Elsewise it looks like beuorcracy.
# [18:09] * Ms2ger suggests TabAtkins introduces a merge-specs feature to Bikeshed, to create a complete CSS3 spec
# [18:09] <dael> fantasai: We can add a previous draft link if we have to. I want to to be a 301 perm redirect. No aliasing.
# [18:09] <Ms2ger> s/beuorcracy/bureaucracy/
# [18:09] <dael> Bert: I'd like to suggest we don't jsut add a redirect, but also update /CSS.
# [18:09] <dbaron> er, 4
# [18:09] <dael> fantasai: I agree.
# [18:09] <dael> fantasai: Let's add that tot eh F2F agenda.
# [18:09] * TabAtkins Ms2ger: https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed/issues/269
# [18:09] <dael> Bert: I won't be there, but it sounds like a good topic
# [18:09] <dael> fantasai: You can send us your advance ideas.
# [18:09] <Bert> q-
# [18:09] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:09] <tantek> +1
# [18:10] <dael> fantasai: Proposal turn it into a 301 redirect to /TR/CSS
# [18:10] <dael> plinss: Anyone object?
# [18:10] <dael> Bert: Both can happen, but it's easier for the webmaster if the update happens at the same time. Depends on how quickly.
# [18:10] <dael> tantek: I guess onto the 301.
# [18:11] <dael> RESOLVED: Turn the old roadmap into a 301 redrect to /tr/css and discuss updating the snapshot at the F2F
# [18:11] <dael> Topic: transform-style: preserve-3d creating containing blocks
# [18:11] <dael> plinss: smfr are you on the call? I guess not.
# [18:11] <dael> Topic: flex-basis: magic
# [18:12] <dael> Rossen_: For the flexbox one, we are going to impl the content keyword, or value rather. It works pretty good, we haven't heard any feedbacka bout the value names.
# [18:12] <dael> Rossen_: At this point we'd appriciate stop changing our minds.
# [18:12] <dael> TabAtkins: Sounds fine to me
# [18:12] <dael> Rossen_: fantasai you have a concern here, are you okay?
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# [18:13] <dael> fantasai: I don't mind. We didn't resolve on a name, we just had a placeholder in the draft. It's just a matter of if it's okay or if there are other words.
# [18:13] <dael> Rossen_: We went with the content vaue and we haven't heard anyone being offended by this name
# [18:13] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm find with content, if there's no obj lets resolve and we'll lock it down.
# [18:13] <dael> plinss: obj?
# [18:14] <dael> RESOLVED: use content as the new keyword for flex-basis
# [18:14] <dael> topic: Flexbox issues
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# [18:14] <fantasai> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Oct/0188.html
# [18:14] <dael> TabAtkins: The first was a while ago about aliasing the no-wrap value to not have a dash. We had a dash orignally and removed it to match whitespace, but it's hard to remember. On the other hand we can't remove nowrap at this point
# [18:15] <dael> TabAtkins: We add an additional value of no-wrap that means the same thing as nowrap.
# [18:15] <dael> Florian: I have no strong opinion as to if we should, but if we do that's the right way to do it.
# [18:15] <dael> plinss: How to serialize?
# [18:15] <dael> TabAtkins: They're two sep values so they'll serialize as you put it in.
# [18:15] <dael> Florian: For property we can do magic, but for a value this is smarter
# [18:15] <fantasai> Summary of open flexbox issues: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2015JanMar/0071.html
# [18:15] <dael> plinss: obj?
# [18:16] <tantek> Aside - plinss, I wasn't able to complet the edits for CSS3-UI by yesterday (circumstances :( ). All issue resolutions documented (even if just "refer to open issue") on issue page. Editor's draft edits will be done shortly today. REQUEST: proceed with publication (assuming group does not object, as agreed last week), even if that means next publication week.
# [18:16] <dael> Florian: Just to claify your proposal this is to edit for whitespace?
# [18:16] <dael> TabAtkins: We can and should edit whitespace.
# [18:16] <dael> fantasai: I think it's redic to do only one. I'd like to hear from others.
# [18:16] * fantasai dael, feel free to paste that email into the minutes as an appendix
# [18:17] <TabAtkins> https://twitter.com/SlexAxton/status/519953582183809024
# [18:17] <dael> ???: We're running some queries. I think this would add to the confusion. It's kind of a tossup as to what's the most confusing.
# [18:17] <dael> TabAtkins: Here's the tweet that mentioned the confusion.
# [18:17] <gregwhitworth> ???/gregwhitworth
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# [18:17] <TabAtkins> s/redic/ridic/
# [18:17] <dael> TabAtkins: Once we get the no-wrap, we can depricate nowrap. It'll be valid, but the spec won't recommend it because it isn't normal naming rules.
# [18:17] <dael> tantek: does this effect dom serialization?
# [18:18] <dael> TabAtkins: No. They're two diff values that do the same thing
# [18:18] <dael> dbaron: Are they sep at spec value stage and value and computed?
# [18:18] <sanja> q+ is there any number on how many dash-including-values we have?
# [18:18] * Zakim sanja, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [18:18] <dael> TabAtkins: No, because if we did at computed we'd have to go to the stuid value of no-wrap
# [18:19] <dael> TabAtkins: If people believe we can get away with a rename, but I'm not sure we could. I'm being conservative and saying the safe option.
# [18:19] <dael> gregwhitworth: I think we'll confuse web authors with them both existing as poss serialization. If someone is looking for a no-wrap they have to look for two different values. I think it's complex. I'd be okay with parse time alias.
# [18:19] <dael> TabAtkins: They're impossible for values.
# [18:19] <dbaron> s/gregwhitworth/tantek/
# [18:19] <dael> tantek: You say it computes to.
# [18:20] <dael> TabAtkins: That's not parse time. We can do that for prop not values.
# [18:20] <dael> tantek: pseudo elements is similar to this. They were grandfathered in like :first-letter. You don't get :first-letter and ::first-letter.
# [18:20] <dael> TabAtkins: It's a compat call. If we can do that, let's, but if it's not compatable.
# [18:21] <dael> fantasai: The psuedo elements is a parse time thing.
# [18:21] <dael> fantasai: The specificed value would still be no-wrap or nowrap.
# [18:21] <dael> fantasai: Are you saying no-wrap should parse in as nowrap?
# [18:21] <Zakim> +??P2
# [18:21] <dael> tantek: I'd be fine with that.
# [18:21] <Bert> (I don't like aliases, people will ask for 'colour' again, but we do have already an equality between .123 and 0.123, and between 10mm and 1cm...)
# [18:22] <dael> tantek: If authors are putting in no-wrap and expecting it to work, I think that would be the easiest fix.
# [18:22] <dael> fantasai: I agree with you.
# [18:22] <dael> TabAtkins: Theoretical stumble points aren't this, this is a real stumble point. It's a confusing inconsistancy with the lang. We can say there may be future confusion, but we know there's currect confusion.
# [18:22] <dael> tantek: That's why I said it's okay to alias at parse.
# [18:23] <dael> plinss: Anyone writing script will have to look for the undashed value.
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# [18:23] <dael> tantek: They'll have to look for both in the future. You can make them look for two or one. That's the choice.
# [18:23] <dael> plinss: If they're writing code against themselves they can look for their own style.
# [18:23] * fantasai tantek++
# [18:24] <dael> tantek: They're own style sheet in this age of corporations, we can see that as an archetectural sticking point.
# [18:24] <dael> fantasai: Even if you are, you can accidently do one or the other over time. Or we don't make you do that.
# [18:24] <dael> tantek: Do we know of anyone checking for nowrap?
# [18:24] <dael> TabAtkins: I don't know and don't know how we'd check. It would be difficult. That's why I suggested the conservative.
# [18:24] <dael> Rossen_: Will you impl for only unprefixed, or would you push that to prefixed webkit?
# [18:25] <dael> TabAtkins: The conservative isn't a compat issue, so no reason to hide it behind only the unprefixed.
# [18:25] <gregwhitworth> s/tantek/gregwhitworth
# [18:25] <dael> Rossen_: If we all change it at the same time so that we will effectively force people to start using the dashed version.
# [18:25] <gregwhitworth> tantek and I must sound the same over the phone
# [18:25] * dael gregwhitworth is that all the way back to when astearns corrected me?
# [18:26] <gregwhitworth> no, the most recent one, I was asking for the data
# [18:26] <dael> fantasai: We'd have to be consistant and if we do undashed in one and not the other it's worse. whitespace has been around since CSS1.
# [18:26] <dael> TabAtkins: removing nowrap wasn't on the table.
# [18:26] <dael> Florian: What's confusing is merging into one.
# [18:26] <tantek> I'd like to see "no-wrap" work at *parse* time as a minimum, and I see the use case for that.
# [18:26] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm finding code that checks for nowrap in JS.
# [18:26] <dael> TabAtkins: So it's prob a thing that happens.
# [18:27] <fantasai> Options:
# [18:27] <dael> plinss: So alias at parse time, two values, no change.
# [18:27] <fantasai> A) Parse no-wrap as nowrap
# [18:27] <tantek> you can also access it as a property right? element.style.nowrap currently
# [18:27] <fantasai> B) Treat as two keywords with identical definitions
# [18:27] <dael> TabAtkins: There's no alias at parse. We can do computer time into legacy nowrap keyword.
# [18:27] <tantek> does it become element.style.noWrap ?
# [18:27] <tantek> are they aliases?
# [18:27] <fantasai> C) no-wrap computes to nowrap
# [18:27] <fantasai> D) Do nothing
# [18:27] <dael> Rossen_: But then it sucks. For completeness lets have it, but it's not a good option.
# [18:27] <tantek> or sorry - element.style.whiteSpace = "nowrap"
# [18:27] <tantek> or element.style.whiteSpace = "no-wrap" ?
# [18:27] <dael> fantasai: They're in IRC [reads the options]
# [18:28] <TabAtkins> (A) is not an option.
# [18:28] <dael> fantasai: A is an option because tantek brought it up.
# [18:28] <dael> TabAtkins: It's not because parse time isn't a thing we can deal with here.
# [18:28] <sanja> q+ to fantasai I'd go with option C - compute to nowrap
# [18:28] * Zakim sees sanja on the speaker queue
# [18:28] <dbaron> TabAtkins: ... variables
# [18:28] <dael> TabAtkins: It's just not an option that accomplishes what we want.
# [18:28] * Rossen_ D FTW
# [18:28] <dael> fantasai: It will deal with the dash for most authors.
# [18:28] <dael> plinss: So it's an option, but not one you like.
# [18:29] <TabAtkins> B
# [18:29] <sanja> C
# [18:29] <dael> plinss: I'm not hearing consensus. Maybe an IRC straw poll?
# [18:29] <fantasai> D or A
# [18:29] <Florian> B
# [18:29] <Rossen_> D
# [18:29] <dbaron> D
# [18:29] <tantek> A, ok with C or D.
# [18:29] <glazou> abstain
# [18:29] <gregwhitworth> D
# [18:29] <dael> plinss: Type your choice, A, B, C or D.
# [18:29] <antonp> abstain
# [18:29] <astearns> B or D
# [18:29] <smfr> D
# [18:29] <Bert> D, then A
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# [18:29] <dauwhe> abstain
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# [18:29] <koji> B
# [18:29] <fantasai> Just to clarify, this affects both flex-wrap and white-space properties
# [18:30] <Rossen_> D
# [18:30] <adenilson> abstain.
# [18:30] <dael> plinss: It seems the clear winner is no change.
# [18:30] <SteveZ_> D, because I am not convinced that the solution is an improvement
# [18:30] <gregwhitworth> I propose we start versioning the web </sarcasm>
# [18:30] <murakami> D
# [18:30] <dael> plinss: Anyone that can't live with it?
# [18:30] <dael> TabAtkins: I'm unhappy because I think people with no webdev experience aren't experiencing the pain.
# [18:30] <dael> Rossen_: I think this isn't a never change, we should keep working on it.
# [18:30] <dael> TabAtkins: There's no other options!
# [18:30] <Zakim> -adenilson
# [18:30] <dael> Rossen_: So it seems we should aprpoach this otherwise.
# [18:31] <dael> tantek: I think impl could support A and if there's impl consensus on that we adopt it.
# [18:31] <Zakim> +??P10
# [18:31] <Zakim> -??P10
# [18:31] <dael> fantasai: We generally discourage people doing suite parsing of their own. We did that in the 90s.
# [18:31] <fantasai> s/suite/tag soup/
# [18:32] <dael> plinss: I'm seeing most people saying do nothing, but lots of people wanting to keep talking about this.
# [18:32] * tantek fantasai not everything about the 90s was bad. ;)
# [18:32] <Zakim> +??P10
# [18:32] <fantasai> fantasai: It ended poorly
# [18:32] <adenilson> Zakim, ??P10 is me.
# [18:32] <Zakim> +adenilson; got it
# [18:32] <dael> Rossen_: One more thing before we finish this, why are you pushing to change both of these? I see changing flexbox and we can do that regardless of whitespace.
# [18:33] <dael> TabAtkins: Reason we're not doing that is consistancy in the lang is more important than theoretical consistancy.
# [18:33] <dael> TabAtkins: They need to be either all changed or none changed.
# [18:33] <dael> Rossen_: I'm not convinced with that.
# [18:33] * astearns nowrap has no white space. no-wrap has been flexed
# [18:33] <dael> plinss: Lets move on. If someone can get better data for the F2F that would be welcome.
# [18:33] <dael> plinss: next issue.
# [18:34] <dael> TabAtkins: Next was the naming we dealt with. After that is allowing specifiying when wrapping should happen.
# [18:34] <dael> TabAtkins: Right now in flex 2 we want to let people do flex breaks to get wrapping the way they want.
# [18:34] <dael> fantasai: I think that control of flex wrapping needs a lot more discussion since we don't have exact issues.
# [18:35] <dael> fantasai: There's also abspos where we don't understand. There's the pagebreaking controls which also isn't worth discussing since we don't hve a sense of pros and cons.
# [18:35] <dael> fantasai: So I think we're done for flexbox.
# [18:35] <dael> gregwhitworth: Can you keep us in the look on the abspos.
# [18:35] <dael> fantasai: We don't understand the issue yet, so if you do please post and tell us what to do.
# [18:35] <dael> gregwhitworth: I don't, but I'm intregued to see what you guys find.
# [18:35] <dael> plinss: Are you expecting to have this for the F2F?
# [18:35] <astearns> let's get the flex break issue on the ftf agenda
# [18:36] <dael> fantasai: Should.
# [18:36] <dael> Rossen_: Is that the same issue we did when you were visiting?
# [18:36] <dael> fantasai: That was a different one.
# [18:36] <dael> Topic: extending break-* to lineboxes
# [18:36] <dael> fantasai: This was an idea, the break controls are useful for frag controls. Do we want to extend that for linebreaking.
# [18:37] <dael> fantasai: Lets say I don't wnat my links broken across lines, they won't break unless the line is too narrow and then it will break.
# [18:37] <dbaron> seems like interactions with 'white-space' could be interesting, though maybe not. At the very least confusing to have both...
# [18:37] <dael> fantasai: We've talked about forced break controls about breaking before and after. Break-inside, I've wanted for a while and it's showed up in various drafts. We could adopt these two wholesale for linebreaking.
# [18:38] <Zakim> -??P2
# [18:38] <fantasai> fantasai^: break-inside: avoid (for example above)
# [18:38] <dael> tantek: Conseptually, I wonder if there's a possiblity where you say you don't want it to break unless it won't fit. Maybe there's also a case where you donn't want it to break, but you want it to ellipse.
# [18:38] <dael> fantasai: You can do that with display-inline-block.
# [18:38] <Zakim> +krit
# [18:38] <dael> tantek: You need a whip and you can't set that.
# [18:38] <dael> fantasai: You do max-width 100%
# [18:39] <dael> tantek: That's a lot more complex and you have baseline alignment
# [18:39] <dael> fantasai: They work by default
# [18:39] <fantasai> element { display: inline-block; max-width: 100%; overflow: hidden; text-overflow: ellipsis; }
# [18:39] <dael> tantek: With inline block?
# [18:39] * Bert a whip :-)
# [18:39] <dael> fantasai: Yep.
# [18:39] <dael> plinss: So you don't want a res, you just want to introduce?
# [18:39] <dael> fantasai: Yes. We should move on.
# [18:39] <tantek> thanks fantasai - that's interesting, might have to try that
# [18:39] <tantek> worth mentioning as an option
# [18:39] <dael> Florian: We have a content problem where previously it did nothing and now does something.
# [18:40] <dael> fantasai: Seems unlikely. The break prop are relatively new.
# [18:40] <dael> Florian: Fair enough.
# [18:40] <Florian> s/we have/do we have/
# [18:40] <dael> Topic: text-wrap: balance
# [18:40] <dael> plinss: astearns ?
# [18:40] <dael> fantasai: I can do it.
# [18:40] <astearns> sorry, was muted
# [18:40] <dael> fantasai: There's been discussion about balancing lines or text so they're approx even.
# [18:41] <dael> fantasai: astearns and I drafted a proposal that could change a lot as we discuss. We want to do CSS4 Text at the F2F. We did a prop ED for CSS4 Text.
# [18:41] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-text-4/
# [18:41] <dael> fantasai: We put that in and a couple of things that were cut from level 3.
# [18:41] <dael> fantasai: We invite feedback on all of that and at some point we'd like to to be official. I don't know if astearns had anything else?
# [18:41] <dael> Bert: Are we discussing balance now?
# [18:41] <dael> fantasai: Sue.
# [18:42] <dael> Bert: I think balance is only useful for center aligned. Left and right should use indent. It's two things in different context and balance isn't an explicit keyword.
# [18:43] <dael> astearns: It's useful with centered. You'd want it on left-align headlines. It's a different operation then getting the last line length you want. With headlines you can get short then avg when you're trying to extend the last line length you tend not to want very short lines
# [18:43] * dauwhe we certainly want balanced lines with left-aligned headlines
# [18:43] <dael> Bert: Another interaction is automatic font size. I'd like the font size to inc to fill the last line.
# [18:43] <Zakim> + +1.203.232.aabb
# [18:43] <dael> astearns: I would call that font fitting. In addition to font, you may want other prop. I'm interested in that, but I think it's seperate
# [18:44] <dael> plinss: Agree, but we do have to worry about interaction.
# [18:44] <astearns> s/font fitting/content fitting/
# [18:44] <dael> plinss: Anything else on this?
# [18:44] <dael> Florian: I've mentioned my thoughts on the ML
# [18:44] <dael> Topic: CSS3 UI
# [18:45] <dael> tantek: There's a bunch. I'd like to...I put in IRC I was able to go through the outstanding issues enough that I could put it in the draft. Sometimes we mention the issue inline. Some things we have resolutions Florian and I agree on or are close on.
# [18:45] <dael> tantek: First one is one we've discussed previously.
# [18:45] <dael> tantek: I think 38 which is negative values on line offsets. Since it's inconsistant support, it's at risk.
# [18:46] <dael> Florian: One difference between our versions, how you deal with it if you do it we agree, but you have browsers don't have to support negative values. I'm not sure I'd have that since everyone te supports does support negative
# [18:46] <dael> tantek: I think I put that before the at risk bit. As long as it's at risk if we decide no one is interop we can fall back to negative values aren't supported.
# [18:46] <dael> Florian: Everyone does it, they jsut do it differently
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# [18:47] <dael> tantek: But we can't spec that. So we can go to CR if that doesn't get resolved
# [18:47] <dael> tantek: Other opinions? Other impl want to chime in?
# [18:47] <Zakim> -adenilson
# [18:47] <dael> fantasai: A link would be helpful
# [18:47] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-ui/#outline-offset
# [18:47] <tantek> https://www.w3.org/wiki/CSS3-UI#Issue_38
# [18:47] <dael> tantek: That's the draft and the issue
# [18:48] <dael> Florian: The idea is once you're negative you're allowed but you have to stop before the small box in the middle is smaller than twice the width.
# [18:48] <dael> tantek: That's from our previous discussion. It's not new.
# [18:48] <Zakim> +??P10
# [18:48] <dael> Florian: That's the prop I made on the list.
# [18:48] <adenilson> Zakim, ??P10 is me.
# [18:48] <Zakim> +adenilson; got it
# [18:48] <dael> tantek: We discussed on the telecon with no obj. UNless there's new information we should go with that.
# [18:49] <dael> fantasai: I'm confused as to why twice the outline width insead of 0.
# [18:49] <dael> tantek: So there's something that can be rendered. It shouldn't override the outline width or style.
# [18:49] <dael> fantasai: ooooh. I was imaging interior not exterior. I think you should clarify that.
# [18:49] <fantasai> s/interior/interior size/
# [18:49] <dael> Florian: So you disagree on phrasing, not behavior.
# [18:49] <dael> fantasai: Yeah.
# [18:49] <dael> tantek: Okay. We can accept that.
# [18:50] <dael> plinss: Maybe even a diagram would be useful
# [18:50] <dael> fantasai: Did we decide negative ar optional, at risk, or both
# [18:50] <dael> tantek: The intent was at risk. That's what we're prop. The optional bit was before that.
# [18:50] <dael> Florian: We want it this way, but we're worried about impl. The other option is to replace the must with a should.
# [18:51] <dael> fantasai: That seems reasonable to me.
# [18:51] <dael> tantek: I'll turn it into a should and take out the may ignore.
# [18:51] <dael> plinss: obj?
# [18:51] <smfr> behavior on non-rectangular shapes needs to be specified
# [18:51] <dael> RESOLVED: Change the must into a should and remove the reference to "may ignore"
# [18:51] <smfr> don’t assume the outline is rectangular
# [18:52] <fantasai> file:///home/fantasai/w3c/csswg/css-ui/Overview.html#input-method-editor
# [18:52] <dael> tantek: The basic sumamry is IME mode isn't well designed and we don't think it should be impl. What I've edited is to obsolete IME mode
# [18:52] <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-ui/#input-method-editor
# [18:52] <dael> tantek: To say impl should drop support ASAP. Authors must not use it and users may use a certain hack to fix past misuse. This is prop instead of completely dropping since I don't think that captures that it's a bad idea.
# [18:52] <dael> tantek: That's what we've written there.
# [18:52] <dael> fantasai: I've read it and it makes a lot of sense.
# [18:53] <dael> dbaron: I'm not conviced it's a bad idea.
# [18:53] <dael> Florian: The moz impl said it was.
# [18:53] <dael> Florian: It's not doable on mobile and editing type on mobile is though a vertual keyboard. Basically if you're thinking of a desktop running windows for an audience in Japan it works, but if you break that it doesn't.
# [18:53] <dael> dbaron: We prop need something to replace it.
# [18:54] <dael> Florian: There are things moving in the right direction.
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# [18:54] <fantasai> +1 to what Florian said
# [18:54] <dael> Florian: There are things in HTML hinting at what type of thing you expect to be intereed and the UI can display the most reasonable input. There are missing values, but I'm quite convinced that IME mode is a bad idea
# [18:55] <dael> s/prop/prob
# [18:55] <dael> tantek: Any otehr thoughts on obsoleteing IME mode?
# [18:55] <dael> fantasai: I'm 100% in favor.
# [18:55] <dael> Florian: The text you have now mentioned it's obs elsewhere?
# [18:55] <dael> tantek: As a reference for incompat.
# [18:55] <dael> Florian: Yeah. Okay.
# [18:55] * fantasai tantek, also change "ime-mode" to <css>ime-mode</css> so it formats correctly :)
# [18:56] <dael> plinss: Do we need a resolution?
# [18:56] <tantek> what is the <css> tag?!?
# [18:56] <fantasai> it's a bikesheddism
# [18:56] <dael> fantasai: I think we do. Document IME mode as obsolete as described in the draft?
# [18:56] <dael> plinss: Obj?
# [18:56] <dael> RESOLVED: Document IME mode as obsolete as described in the draft
# [18:56] <dael> SteveZ_: I think your link to a non-normative should be ID as non-normative so it's not a problem
# [18:56] <dael> plinss: Just change to a note.
# [18:57] <dael> SteveZ_: If it's not in a note, it's normative if it's in a normative section
# [18:57] <dael> tantek: I'll start with a note to make it more clear
# [18:57] <dael> dbaron: I'm not happy about the precident set by saying impl that don't have the prop shouldn't add it and if impl have it they should drop. I'd rather consistant across all impl.
# [18:57] <dael> tantek: Stronger lang?
# [18:58] <dael> dbaron: I think it would make more sense as a should not for everybody
# [18:58] <dael> tantek: Should not support?
# [18:58] * plh-away is now known as plh
# [18:58] <dael> dbaron: umhum
# [18:58] <dael> tantek: I'm fine with that. Florian ?
# [18:58] <dael> Florian: I'm fine with that. It means IE won't past he test suite.
# [18:59] <dael> Rossen_: IE will have to chat witht he editing folks and come back. I can't comment at the moment. But the previous would have been more favorable because it gives s an out. Dropping it since we have it is a question for us and I don't htink we'll do it.
# [18:59] <Zakim> -krit
# [18:59] <dael> Florian: I expect that IE will keep this for quite a while. People using IE on a desktop isn't that rare. I think it's fine to drop with the understanding it's unlkely to happen with IE
# [18:59] <dael> plinss: Anything else on this one?
# [18:59] <dael> tantek: I've made the changed from dbaron so I'll regenerate.
# [19:00] <dael> Rossen_: So you're changing to a strong should not?
# [19:00] <dael> tantek: I'm making "should not support"
# [19:00] <dael> Rossen_: Yeah. Okay
# [19:00] <dael> Rossen_: That's a favorable spec for someone who won't support. We'll most likely be non-compliant.
# [19:00] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [19:00] <Zakim> - +1.203.232.aabb
# [19:00] <Zakim> -gregwhitworth
# [19:00] <Zakim> -glazou
# [19:00] <Zakim> -antonp
# [19:00] <dael> plinss: That's the top of the hour. I'll see most of you in Sydney in two weeks!
# [19:00] <Zakim> -adenilson
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# [19:00] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [19:00] <Zakim> -dauwhe
# [19:00] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [19:00] <Zakim> -TabAtkins
# [19:00] <Zakim> -kwkbtr
# [19:00] <Zakim> -tgraham
# [19:01] * Quits: AndroUser2 (~androirc@public.cloak) ("AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )")
# [19:01] <Zakim> -koji
# [19:01] * Quits: glazou (~glazou@public.cloak) (glazou)
# [19:01] <dael> tantek: About the publication, CLilly asked me to put everything together and I'd like to publish.
# [19:01] <Zakim> -murakami
# [19:01] * Quits: AH_Miller (~mike@public.cloak) ("")
# [19:01] <dael> Rossen_: If we don't have a resolution on the previous issue we should wait. We said obsolete, but we didn't resolve on the should not.
# [19:01] <Zakim> -MikeMiller
# [19:02] <dael> Rossen_: If you want to pub that's fine with te t-1 version. otherwise we should discuss further.
# [19:02] <dael> tantek: I'm okay with that if dbaron is okay with the change coming in later.
# [19:02] <dael> tantek: I'll add the should not to the ED after the publication.
# [19:02] <sanja> who's here
# [19:02] <dael> plinss: Do we need a resolution?
# [19:02] <sanja> Zakim, who's here?
# [19:02] <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, dael, sanja, Florian_away, Stearns, SimonSapin, Bert, tantek, [Microsoft]
# [19:02] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has Rossen_
# [19:02] <Zakim> On IRC I see smfr, SteveZ_, Rossen_, tgraham, tantek, adenilson, murakami, kwkbtr, dael, Zakim, dbaron, Florian, thinkxl, zcorpan, dauwhe, sanja, plh, lajava, Ms2ger, hgl, shepazu,
# [19:02] <Zakim> ... nikos, gsnedders, antonp, jumland, lmclister______, achicu_____, TabAtkins, JonathanNeal_, timeless, iank___, sgalineau, amtiskaw, abucur___, birtles, mihnea_____, ato,
# [19:02] <Zakim> ... robertknight_clo, xiaoqian, shane, krit, mvujovic______, ppk___, renoirb_, CSSWG_LogBot, liam, paul___irish, ed, fantasai, stryx`, SimonSapin, dwim, RRSAgent, sylvaing,
# [19:02] <Zakim> ... projector
# [19:02] <Zakim> -Stearns
# [19:02] <dael> tantek: We resolved to change last week. I'm hoping the past stands.
# [19:03] <dael> Rossen_: I'm fine with the last, I'm not happy with the not-resolved additions. Pub with everything resolved and we'll discuss more once the draft was out.
# [19:03] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [19:03] <Zakim> -Bert
# [19:03] <dael> plinss: Lets go ahead and publish.
# [19:03] <dael> tantek: I'll point to least week's resolution.
# [19:03] * Quits: murakami (~murakami@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:03] <Zakim> -Florian_away
# [19:03] <Zakim> -SimonSapin
# [19:03] <Zakim> -plinss
# [19:03] <Zakim> -tantek
# [19:03] <Zakim> -dael
# [19:03] <Zakim> -sanja
# [19:03] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:03] <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, dael, +43.134.001.00aaaa, glazou, MikeMiller, sanja, Florian_away, dauwhe, murakami, Stearns, SimonSapin, gregwhitworth, adenilson, kwkbtr, dbaron, antonp,
# [19:03] <Zakim> ... fantasai, tantek, TabAtkins, Bert, tgraham, Rossen_, SteveZ, koji, krit, +1.203.232.aabb
# [19:04] * Quits: dael (~dael@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:04] * Quits: smfr (~smfr@public.cloak) (smfr)
# [19:05] * Quits: sanja (~sanja@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:05] * Quits: kwkbtr (~kwkbtr@public.cloak) ("")
# [19:06] <Bert> Fantasai, so I guess we don't publish css3-break yet? Seeing that flex box breaks were unresolved. Or do you want to publish anyway, even if it currently conflicts with flexbox?
# [19:06] <dbaron> In hindsight, I'd probably change my position in the poll to "D or A".
# [19:08] <tantek> dbaron, that's why I preferred A (I've made the "no-wrap" mistake myself many times), but ok with D.
# [19:08] <tantek> seems the right thing to do for authors, minimal impact, does not impact existing scripts.
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# [19:08] <TabAtkins> dbaron: A means that "foo { --foo: no-wrap; white-space: var(--foo); }" breaks.
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# [19:08] <TabAtkins> Which is also inconsistent (and thus not an option imo)
# [19:10] <Bert> I think we chose nowrap at the time because that's what HTML Transitional had, although we hesitated over the name for a long time.
# [19:10] <TabAtkins> Bert: YOU DONE GOOFED, SON
# [19:10] <Florian> C I don't like, because if you can write "no-wrap" in you css, and you try to test for equality to "no-wrap" in JS and it fails, that's not really making the matter less confusing
# [19:11] <TabAtkins> Florian: Agree.
# [19:11] <Florian> B means pick one style, and it will work
# [19:11] <Florian> it has the problem that when different people write the js and the css, confusion is possible
# [19:12] <tantek> and that's one of the biggest sources of problems with CSS right now - the "different people write it" thing
# [19:12] <tantek> and not just JS vs CSS
# [19:12] <Florian> I think it's not a blocker, but I can see how reasonable people can disagree
# [19:12] <tantek> but different people editing or maintaining the CSS over time
# [19:12] <tantek> that happens ALL THE TIME
# [19:12] <TabAtkins> The bigger point, though, is that writing "nowrap" in stylesheets is WAY more common than writing it in scripts (per a github search) so this hand-wringing about the "two values are confusing in script" is inflating the script concern way too much while downplaying the very common style concern.
# [19:12] <tantek> Florian, it's not a matter of being a blocker or not, but rather making something *worse*
# [19:12] <TabAtkins> I mean, status quo fallacy, but still, people should recognize when they're committing this. :/
# [19:13] <tantek> the point is to avoid this particular axis of making it worse
# [19:13] <Florian> tantek: it is making the situation better for the 99.7% who use it without script, and worse for the 0.3% who do.
# [19:13] <tantek> Florian - you know me, I'm a NoScript advocate ;)
# [19:13] <tantek> point is that A does that too
# [19:14] <tantek> and more people use script than variables … (ahem)
# [19:14] <Florian> I don't see what A buys us over C.
# [19:14] <tantek> it's more conservative. no impact on DOM.
# [19:15] <tantek> and it directly solves the *specific* use-case of people using "no-wrap" as a value in their style sheets
# [19:15] <Florian> I guess.
# [19:15] <tantek> it solves the precise problem, and goes no further
# [19:15] <tantek> which is usually the sign of a good design
# [19:15] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:16] <Florian> the way I see it, A B and C all inconvenience script people (in different ways), but at least B gives the option to completely ignore that nowrap ever existed, if you can convince the whole team about that.
# [19:18] <Florian> A & C cause problems because you can use no-wrap in CSS and never learn about nowrap, until you write a script and suddenly == "nowrap" won't fly. "WTF" would be the expected reaction
# [19:18] * shepazu prefers "now-rap"
# [19:18] * shepazu or "nowrap"
# [19:18] <tantek> disagree Florian - with A, in script you would immediately see the "nowrap" result. no delayed surprises.
# [19:18] <tantek> that's the key with script - immediate feedback on what you do
# [19:18] <Florian> if you look for it
# [19:18] <tantek> if you're not looking for the value, you don't care
# [19:19] <Florian> if you just get a value out, and test equality against "nowrap", you're still hosed
# [19:19] <tantek> that's the point, this only affects the use-case where you do look for the value, and then you will immediately see what it is doing
# [19:19] <Florian> s/nowrap/no-wrap/
# [19:19] <tantek> you'll look at the output, see what it is, and you're done
# [19:19] <tantek> immediate feedback
# [19:19] <tantek> as opposed to future possible errors which are MUCH worse
# [19:19] <tantek> which is what happens with parallel values
# [19:19] <tantek> hidden bugs
# [19:20] <tantek> huge difference in reliability / debuggability
# [19:20] <tantek> night and day
# [19:20] <Florian> I agree it isn't the end of the word. But it doesn't get us out of this situation where people have to know and remember that we gave this value a bad name in the first place
# [19:20] <tantek> that's not the goal
# [19:20] <tantek> the goal is the use-case as stated above
# [19:20] <Florian> B, means that once people all write no-wrap, which is the unsurprising name, eventually we can forget the other one ever existed
# [19:21] <tantek> help web devs who put "no-wrap" into their style sheets
# [19:21] <tantek> re: "know and remember that we gave this value a bad name in the first place" it is not our goal to worry about the embarrassment of the CSSWG.
# [19:21] <tantek> or rather, not a high priority goal :P
# [19:21] <tantek> we can never forget the other existed because of existing content / script
# [19:21] <tantek> "forget the other one ever existed" is a fool's errand
# [19:23] <Florian> I don't care about the embarassement of the WG, but it'd be nice if the next generation of new-comers to CSS could be spared that bit of confusion. Use no-wrap only, it works.
# [19:24] <TabAtkins> Yup yup.
# [19:24] <TabAtkins> By "We can forget it existed" we mean "new authors can forget it exists". Future is larger than the past, etc.
# [19:24] <Florian> Other than B, only nowrap computes to no-wrap gets us there, but that one probably breaks something somewhere
# [19:25] <dbaron> TabAtkins, I don't see why you think the var thing won't work
# [19:25] <TabAtkins> Florian: I found a script that it breaks on the first page of github search results.
# [19:26] <dbaron> TabAtkins, by "parse time" I mean the point at which a sequence of tokens (possibly resulting from variable substitution) is converted into a value for the white-space property
# [19:26] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Because it's post-parsing? Unless you mean that parsing vars would trigger it too.
# [19:26] <Florian> dbaron: if we make no-wrap parse to nowrap inside the variable, it would not break, but that's weird. If we don't, then we're past parse stage when we inject it
# [19:26] <dbaron> TabAtkins, i.e., conversion from token stream to specified value storage
# [19:26] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Okay. That's fine. If it works for vars too, I'm fine with this kind of thing.
# [19:26] <Florian> do we need to distinguish between lexing time and parsing time here?
# [19:26] <Florian> lexing time breaks variables, parsing time doesn't
# [19:27] <TabAtkins> Florian: lexing time is way before those. We don't even know property context then.
# [19:28] <dbaron> TabAtkins, I don't even know how we'd describe a concept that affected the parsing of a property only when variables weren't used; variables are defined so it just gets reparsed with the variables substituted
# [19:28] <Florian> so at parse time, if white-space accepts both the nowrap and the no-wrap tokens as synomyns
# [19:28] <TabAtkins> dbaron: I was just thinking of the initial parse, but yeah, you're right.
# [19:29] <plh> argh, youtube annoucement links to http://www.w3.org/TR/fullscreen/
# [19:29] <plh> from http://youtube-eng.blogspot.com/2015/01/youtube-now-defaults-to-html5_27.html
# [19:34] <Florian> tantek: on ime-mode, it is probably worth pointing to the other things in the web stack that attempt to address the need (html's 'type' 'inputmode' and 'pattern' attributes).
# [19:35] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Though, any coalescing option still has to decide between coalescing on "nowrap" (which is silly) or on "no-wrap" (for which I have concrete proof of scripts that will break).
# [19:36] <Florian> the use cases are valid, it's just the solution that was bad, and I'd rather avoid inviting comments about how we're ignoring the needs for i18n etc
# [19:37] <tantek> Florian - I'm open to adding more informative suggested "see alsos" to the ime-mode section
# [19:37] <tantek> if you have some URLs you'd like to suggest
# [19:37] <Florian> TabAtkins: coalescing on nowrap is kinda silly, but it still lets people who use it in CSS and not js ignore that nowrap exists
# [19:37] <Florian> Dinner time now, but I'll send you links later today
# [19:38] <TabAtkins> Florian: Right, it solves the CSS case. But then the JS case is still left with the confusing spelling, particularly when they do:
# [19:38] <TabAtkins> el.style.whiteSpace = "no-wrap"; el.style.whiteSpace == "no-wrap" (False!?!)
# [19:39] <Florian> TabAtkins: Sure. But on the js side, we have the choice of confusion, breaking compat, or asking people to support both values, all of which sort of suck. I still like B best, but it's not like there is an option with no downsides at all
# [19:40] <TabAtkins> Right.
# [19:40] <Florian> but again, dinner time
# [19:40] * Florian is now known as Florian_away
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# [19:45] <plinss> TabAtkins: are you aware that you pushed a second head into the drafts repo?
# [19:45] <TabAtkins> plinss: ...when?
# [19:45] <plinss> https://hg.csswg.org/drafts/rev/21a93d654072
# [19:45] <TabAtkins> (Which means no, I"m not aware.)
# [19:46] * Quits: adenilson (~anonymous@public.cloak) (adenilson)
# [19:46] <TabAtkins> I mean, I didn't push to mercurial at all. Is the git version two-headed?
# [19:46] <TabAtkins> GitHub says there's only a master branch.
# [19:47] <plinss> dunno
# [19:47] <plinss> yeah, not sure how git and hg differ when it comes to un-named branches...
# [19:47] <tantek> plinss: this URL used to work: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-ui
# [19:48] <tantek> seems this is the new URL? http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-ui-3/
# [19:48] <TabAtkins> git doesn't have unnamed branches.
# [19:48] <tantek> previous shortname was "css3-ui"
# [19:48] <tantek> is this part of some shortname renamings?
# [19:48] <tantek> should there be a redirect?
# [19:48] <tantek> I'm fine with either way - just trying to make sure the links don't break.
# [19:48] <plinss> tantek: the link works for me (as a redirect)
# [19:49] <tantek> I see a 404
# [19:49] <TabAtkins> tantek: Works for me.
# [19:49] <tantek> seriously? this? http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-ui/
# [19:49] <tantek> I get: Warning: mysqli_connect(): (08004/1040): Too many connections in /sites/csswg.org/drafts/htdocs/drafts/core/DBConnection.php on line 138
# [19:49] <plinss> I get a 302
# [19:50] <plinss> tantek: clear your cache?
# [19:50] <tantek> hard refresh fixed
# [19:50] <tantek> weird
# [19:56] <tantek> thanks for double-checking plinss TabAtkins
# [20:06] <plinss> TabAtkins: I merged the head on the mercurial side, had some conflicts in css-sizing, check my merge?
# [20:06] <TabAtkins> Link me to commiot
# [20:06] <TabAtkins> ?
# [20:07] <plinss> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/commit/726065ec68a1eed759723ed50e24c0f34805973c
# [20:16] <TabAtkins> plinss: Okay, commented. Good, except you took the branch of the conflicts, when you should have taken the <a> branch.
# [20:17] <plinss> k, thanks, I’ll fix it
# [20:19] <plinss> TabAtkins: on line 466 should inline-size be changed to inline size, like the others?
# [20:19] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
# [20:19] <TabAtkins> Trying to be consistent about the noun form not having dashes, only the adjective form, because that's standard English.
# [20:27] <plinss> seems like there are still a bunch of inconsistensies though…
# [20:28] <TabAtkins> plinss: Probably!
# [20:35] <shepazu> ok, CSS folks, question:
# [20:35] <shepazu> what's the most interesting use of CSS-in-SVG you've seen?
# [20:36] <shepazu> 2) what's the most useful, practical case of CSS-in-SVG?
# [20:36] <dauwhe> shepazu: I thought this was cool, being ignorant of SVG's capabilities. http://www.infogridpacific.com/blog/igp-blog-20140623-svg-plus-javascript-plus-education-equals-sapps.html
# [20:36] <shepazu> TabAtkins, fantasai, ^^
# [20:37] <shepazu> thanks, dauwhe!
# [20:40] <shepazu> I'm thinking more about backgrounds, 9-grids, or any other CSS-specific thing
# [20:41] <shepazu> and specifically, SVG-in-CSS, not CSS-in-SVG
# [20:42] <TabAtkins> shepazu: But... you asked about the opposite. Which do you want?
# [20:45] <shepazu> TabAtkins, oops!
# [20:46] <shepazu> I mean... using SVG in CSS
# [20:46] <shepazu> sorry!
# [20:56] <fantasai> Bert: Publish anyway
# [20:56] <fantasai> darn
# [20:56] <fantasai> too late
# [20:56] <fantasai> :(
# [21:03] <fantasai> Florian_away: you cannot create a world in which nowrap doesn't exist. Even new authors will be copy-pasting existing code, importing libraries, etc.
# [21:03] <fantasai> Florian_away: As tantek says, it's better for the JS to get an immediate error that it never finds "no-wrap" than to have it sometimes work and sometimes not because you didn't consider that there are two spellings
# [21:04] <fantasai> Florian_away: or even vice versa -- existing JS that works will break once someone, intentionally or not, spells it "no-wrap".
# [21:04] <tantek> nothing like having your reasoning double-checked by fantasai. I'm ok with that.
# [21:06] <Ms2ger> Boo, aliasing
# [21:07] <tantek> Boo, boo. :P
# [21:08] <Ms2ger> Seriously, why?
# [21:09] <fantasai> because people complain that "white-space: nowrap" is inconsistent and weird.
# [21:09] <fantasai> Which is true.
# [21:09] <fantasai> If I could fix in the past I would, but at this point...
# [21:10] <fantasai> Bert: \^_^/ Thanks~ Hopefully still enough time :)
# [21:10] * Joins: gregwhitworth (~gregwhitworth@public.cloak)
# [21:11] * fantasai decides it's past time to put the computer away and go do useful things like find a printer
# [21:11] <tantek> fantasai: yeah that's probably a fairly safe change to the continuum.
# [21:11] * tantek decides it's time to get lunch
# [21:13] <Ms2ger> fantasai, if you could fix things in the past, I've got a list :)
# [21:13] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: Vec<Selector>
# [21:13] <SimonSapin> oops
# [21:13] <SimonSapin> https://wiki.csswg.org/ideas/mistakes
# [21:13] <tantek> . /were/made
# [21:14] <Ms2ger> I wasn't going to focus on on CSS :)
# [21:14] <Ms2ger> Except margin collapsing
# [21:14] <SimonSapin> I’ve got a few for Unicode
# [21:14] <Ms2ger> CJK!
# [21:15] <tantek> Ms2ger - got a URL to a wiki page of your list?
# [21:15] <SimonSapin> 16 bits !
# [21:15] <Ms2ger> tantek, sorry, my head isn't addressable :)
# [21:15] <tantek> Ms2ger no problem. work on your streaming function. ;)
# [21:15] <tantek> s/streaming/serialization
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# [21:39] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: about () it silenced the error to add () but it didn't match what you did in cssom-view. old <dfn title=dom-Foo-bar><code>bar(...)</code></dfn> new <dfn method for=Foo>bar(...)</dfn>
# [21:40] <TabAtkins> What did you actually do?
# [21:47] <zcorpan> the "new" thing. except it seems it doesn't work properly for methods, only attributes.
# [21:48] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: see http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#extensions-to-the-window-interface - the methods don't link
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# [22:05] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: how should method definitions be marked up to make idl link to it?
# [22:07] <zcorpan> looks like the url spec has the same issue
# [22:11] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Yeah, I think I still need to tweak the handling of method definitions a little bit. I try really hard to be smart about argument lists, but I think something's still not right.
# [22:11] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: ok
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# [22:40] <Florian_away> TabAtkins: I was hoping that bikeshed would like <{input/type}> to https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/forms.html#states-of-the-type-attribute or something similar, but instead, it dies with an error:
# [22:40] <Florian_away> No 'element-attr' refs found for 'type' with for='input'.
# [22:40] <Florian_away> Is html indexed?
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# [23:06] <TabAtkins> Florian_away: Yeah, Bikeshed's only as good as its data source. HTML is indexed, but not well; it doesn't contain enough structure for Shepherd to figure out what the metadata should be. :(
# [23:07] <Florian_away> alright, manual links it is
# [23:10] <TabAtkins> Florian_away: Nonono, don't.
# [23:10] <TabAtkins> Much easier to use <pre class=anchors> and keep using Bikeshed's autolinking.
# [23:10] <TabAtkins> That keeps consistent styling, and eventually lets you just remove the manually-specified anchors when the automatic data is good enough.
# [23:11] <Florian_away> what's <pre class=anchors> ?
# [23:11] <TabAtkins> https://github.com/tabatkins/bikeshed/blob/master/docs/definitions-autolinks.md#providing-custom-definitions
# [23:12] <Florian_away> didn't know about that
# [23:12] <Florian_away> thanks
# [23:12] <Florian_away> is that a new addition to bikeshed, or did I miss it every time until now?
# [23:13] <TabAtkins> Relatively new.
# [23:13] <TabAtkins> Added it a month or two ago.
# [23:14] <Florian_away> anyway, this is for css3-ui, so I've forwarded the content and this link of yours to Tantek.
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# [23:50] <plinss> Florian_away / TabAtkins: also, in cases like that, feel free to ping me and see if I can’t add code to Shepherd to extract more data from legacy specs
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# Session Close: Thu Jan 29 00:00:01 2015

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