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# Session Start: Wed Jul 29 00:00:00 2015
# Session Ident: #css
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# [00:36] <astearns> TabAtkins: plinss: bikeshed appears to be having problems in the repo
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# [00:51] <plinss> astearns: yeah, saw it, working on it
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# [16:46] * glazou changes topic to 'CSS WG 20150729 conference call - https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jul/0431.html'
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# [18:02] <myles> thank you dael
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# [18:02] <dael> myles, You're welcome!
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# [18:03] <glazou> Regrets: dauwhe
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# [18:05] <MaRakow> am i doing it right?
# [18:05] * dael MaRakow you are!
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# [18:05] <MaRakow> cool :)
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# [18:05] <dael> plinss: Let's start. Please add your name to IRC so we know you're here if you haven't.
# [18:05] <dael> plinss: Anything to add to the agenda?
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# [18:05] <dael> fantasai: Pub grid layout?
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# [18:05] <dael> plh: Anythign else?
# [18:06] <alex_antennahouse> present+ alex critchfield
# [18:06] <gregwhitworth> We read it, I forgot to send feedback
# [18:06] <dael> Florian: Just to mention I asked for an e-mail reply, but it was only sent two minutes ago so there hasn't been time to reply
# [18:06] <dael> fantasai: TabAtkins and I made a bunch of edits to fold in resolutiongs for grid layout
# [18:06] <gregwhitworth> florian: my bad
# [18:06] <dael> Topic: grid layout publication
# [18:06] <SteveZ> I am on the phone
# [18:06] <Rossen> +1 on publishing
# [18:06] <fantasai> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-grid-1/#changes
# [18:06] <fantasai> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-grid-1/issues-wd-20150108
# [18:07] <dael> fantasai: and here's the doc
# [18:07] <Florian> s/for an email reply/for a week to review the proposed prefixing policy, and I did send it,/
# [18:07] <dael> fantasai: We tracked the comments for this cycle. There's a couple of open issues, but we want to pub a WD to update what's out there and we wanted confirmation from Rossen specifically but the rest of the group too.
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# [18:07] <dael> Rossen: I went over your changes and I'm fully supportive of pub a new WD
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# [18:08] <dael> fantasai: If anyone wants more time to look that's fine, but if you want to pub next week instead of Thursday that's fine too. We want it out in the next few weeks and to keep wirking.
# [18:08] <dael> plinss: Any obj?
# [18:08] <fantasai> s/instead of Thursday//
# [18:08] <dael> RESOLVED: Publish updated WD of Grid layout
# [18:08] <Florian> gregwithworth: no problem: I'm the one sending 2 minutes before the deadline. Comments on this new mail appreciated: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jul/0446.html
# [18:08] <dael> fantasai: I'll aim to publish next thursday.
# [18:08] <dael> Topic: css break
# [18:08] <dael> plinss: Looks like we wanted to get back to that this week
# [18:09] <Florian> gregwhitworth: no problem: I'm the one sending 2 minutes before the deadline. Comments on this new mail appreciated: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jul/0446.html
# [18:09] <dael> fantasai: Two issues...one was dropping cloned margins at the breaks and the other was naming of any. I can't rememebr if we closed on the first issue.
# [18:09] <dael> Rossen: I thought we resolved on dropping margins and the name was up to debate, but I didn't hear anything better than any
# [18:10] <dael> fantasai: If we had all and any it would be clear, but since we have always which doesn't make sense for multiple types of breaks...has anyone implt he unprefixed break other than Opera?
# [18:10] <dael> Rossen: We have not.
# [18:10] <dael> fantasai: I think Moz has not. Blink? Safari?
# [18:10] <dbaron> I think Gecko still has only page-break-{before,after}
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# [18:10] <dael> smfr: I don't think webkit has.
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# [18:10] <fantasai> 1. Change nothing
# [18:10] <dael> fantasai: Okay. So I think we've got sev. poss. One is change nothing.
# [18:10] <fantasai> 2. Come up with a different name for any
# [18:11] <fantasai> 3. Change 'always' to 'all' and leave 'any' alone.
# [18:11] <dael> Rossen: The last e-mail I replied I did summarize what we talked about for renaming any and no one replied.
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# [18:11] <dael> fantasai: I think there's three things that makes sense [reads list above]
# [18:11] <dael> fan
# [18:12] <dael> fantasai: I think one person any fragementation cont would be the deepest one. There was discussion on trying to convay we're trying to get the deepest, but no one had a good idea
# [18:12] <dael> fantasai: We don't have any good options to fix this, though I agree the current set is confusing.
# [18:12] <SteveZ> How about Break:Nearest
# [18:13] <dael> Florian: One path is to say now that we're having more types of fragmentation containers we can go through the use cases and see if always and any are right or if we need to change these things. It's not clear that these are the best way to do things. THe poss. to call out which you want to break has been suggested a fewt imes.
# [18:13] <fantasai> SteveZ, seems might be confusing with nearest box, element, breakpoint, something else in a lateral direction
# [18:13] <dael> Florian: Maybe we go through the use cases and see what's best for renaming.
# [18:13] <dael> fantasai: I think that's fair.
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# [18:13] <dael> Florian: And while we do that include the things we haven't quite finished like overflow fragments in the latest incarnation
# [18:14] <dael> fantasai: Yeah, as we do the thinking. One of the use cases if break the column or the page depending on if i'm in a column or a page
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# [18:14] <dael> fantasai: Although if you req. a column break and all you have is pages maybe you do that since a page is really just a simgle column. The mixing of frag context is wierd. I think we want named content, but we wanted to defer that level for now.
# [18:14] <fantasai> s/content/contexts/
# [18:15] <fantasai> until those mechanisms were more definite
# [18:15] <dael> Florian: I understand wanting to defer, but since the design is not obviously the right one, it sounds worth doing. Esp with regions and frag the level of nesting may change within the doc and it becaomes more important to be able to name because you can't just could third from the top.
# [18:16] <dael> Rossen: This is true and it's what we've been talking about, but at level 1 we want to at least give the ability to break at first dfrag level which will let authors have content into templates regardless of what the templates are made out of. When there is content that wants to avoid or break any fragmentainer, that's what the keyword is intended to do.
# [18:16] <dael> Rossen: Yes, named breaks will be something we're working on for another level.
# [18:17] <dael> Florian: What I'm trying to say is that, I don't want named breaks now, but once we have named breaks, I'm not sure if we still need any or always, maybe one will be unnec.
# [18:17] <dael> Rossen: Perhaps, but we don't want to stall the progress for now. Named breaks are moving to level 4 and for this level we have any.
# [18:17] <dael> Rossen: If anyone has any better names or wants to change the any keyword you can respond to the e-mail or speak up now. Otherwise we'll move on.
# [18:18] <dael> SteveZ: The problem I have with any seems arbitraty. Like pick any fragmentainer you're in and break it. I suggested nearest.
# [18:18] <dael> Rossen: That's what I suggest to. I'm suggested nearest or closest or first. The way I think of the auto of breaking, the element that is requesting to be broken or not is looking inside out and it wants to declare it's preference for the first or nearest fragmentainer.
# [18:19] <dael> fantasai: What 'm afraid of with nearest is if you have a region with a fixed height and it's 1 1/2 pages worth. If you're on the first page, the nearest break is the page break, not fragementation.
# [18:19] <dael> Florian: So in linear, not depth.
# [18:19] <bradk> 'Nearest-ancestor'?
# [18:19] <dael> fantasai: Yeah, I think that will be a point of confusion.
# [18:19] <dael> Rossen: I don't disagree.
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# [18:20] <dael> fantasai: And deepest, it means break before the deepest element in the tree, next isn't something they think of. This is why I'm struggling to come up with something that reflects what's going on.
# [18:20] <Florian> closest-ancestor-fragmentainer
# [18:20] <dael> SteveZ: Doesn't any have the same problem?
# [18:20] <dael> fantasai: I agree it's ambig. But at least it's not specific in a misleading way.
# [18:20] <dael> SteveZ: It's unspecific in a misleading way.
# [18:20] <dael> Rossen: Or we could drop this to level 4.
# [18:20] <dael> fantasai: I'm okay with that.
# [18:20] <dael> Rossen: Me too
# [18:20] <bradk> closest-ancestor-or-self-fragmentainer
# [18:21] <dael> Florian: One alternative is just call it break. When you think of for and why loops, you break just one level.
# [18:21] <dael> Rossen: The analegous of loops isn't appropriate. You can break in the parent loop. In fantasai example you can break at the page.
# [18:21] <dael> Florian: Yeah, loops don't nest that way.
# [18:21] <dael> Rossen: Right.
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# [18:22] <dael> Rossen: I think the way I see it, we can live with 'any' There is a somewhat good use case for having any or nearest or whatever we come up with. Or we can say this logic will be solved by name breaks in level 4.
# [18:22] <dael> Florian: What was wrong with deepest?
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# [18:23] <dael> fantasai: It would imply a location deep in the element tree. Authors don't have a concept of nested fragementainers. It's not fundimental enough in CSS it wouldn't do. Most people want a page, column, or region break. There's no nesting, it's just three different things in paralell.
# [18:23] <dael> Rossen: I agree with what you're saying. I don't think authors will think of more than one level of nesting. No one thinks their multi col will be printed and what happens where there's fixed height.
# [18:24] * astearns some people just want to break things
# [18:24] <dael> fantasai: Most common is something just wants to break for the next chapter and they don't care about what type. You'll need named break for regions.
# [18:24] <dael> Florian: You'll want to say break regions or columns or break regions or pages. You have a set of thigns you want to break into. You won't be completely agnostic about I don't know how many things will be nested but I want a specifc break.
# [18:25] <dael> Rossen: It sounds like there wasn't much resistance for this to be in level 4.
# [18:25] <dael> Rossen: Given that this is the only big outstanding issue, we might have to think hard about this one.
# [18:25] <SteveZ> +1 for level 4
# [18:25] <dael> fantasai: Yeah, but we still have the problem of the always value that's in multi-col. I think there's a case of authors just wanting abreak and they don't care aboutt he type. That's basic.
# [18:25] <dael> fantasai: I don't know. I guess we should move to the next topic.
# [18:26] <SteveZ> I do not think "just Break Me" is clear if people have no knowledge of the nesting
# [18:26] <dael> Florian: The only reason I don't want to move to level 4 is any and always will have to named as a pair, so we should have them together in the same level. They're a set and if we define one and push the other to the next level, we're locking ourselves in. OTher than that I'm happy to push back.
# [18:26] <dael> Florian: If we're stuck on laways anyway, sure, but if it's still on the table I'm not sure.
# [18:27] <dael> Rossen: Some of the other proposals were always-any, always-deepest, always-all
# [18:27] <bradk> break: page region /* not column */
# [18:27] <dael> Rossen: That's another prop. on the table.
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# [18:27] <dael> Florian: break one
# [18:27] <dael> plinss: I'm not hearing us getting closer to a solution here.
# [18:27] <Florian> break: something / break: everything
# [18:27] <bkardell_> break: dance
# [18:27] <dael> plinss: Suggestions to make this forward?
# [18:27] <dael> fantasai: I think push back to the ML for now.
# [18:28] <dael> plinss: Let's do that and come back when there's new info.
# [18:28] <bradk> Break: bread
# [18:28] <dael> Topic: % resolution for abspos....
# [18:28] <bradk> Break:fast
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# [18:28] <dael> Rossen: I believe this was waiting for Moz feedback, or was it TabAtkins?
# [18:28] <dael> fantasai: That was waiting for the F2F because TabAtkins wanted to reopen the whole thing.
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# [18:29] <dael> Rossen: This was for abspos, not just the general resolution. If I havea nested abspos item in a grid and that item happens to be layed out inside the grid, how does it resolve.
# [18:29] <dael> Rossen: I believe we agreed it should be consistant and the abspos will resolve based on the grid. For that issue, I don't think there was pushback by anyone, but we were waiting on someone to okay it.
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# [18:31] <dael> fantasai: I'm not sure I agree. If we revert to % being always against hte width there's not issue. If we keep to top and bottom resolving against the height, than we have a abspos element that's positioned against the grid, it behaves like any other abspos element, just as if that grid container was any other kind of containter. The expected would be that the margins resolve the same as any other abspos context and that means going agaist width.
# [18:31] <dael> Rossen: I don't buy it. It's saying if I have a grid item with nothing spec on it, it's the same as if the div was inside a block.
# [18:31] <dael> fantasai: Is a abspos element consitered to be affected by the layout of the containment block, or is abspos a layout mode.
# [18:31] <tantek> present+ tantek
# [18:31] <dael> Rossen: It'st he containing block.
# [18:31] <dael> fantasai: It's just a containing block. It's defined that was in CSS2.1
# [18:32] <fantasai> s/containing block/rectangle/
# [18:32] * astearns this sounds like something for the face to face as well
# [18:32] * bkardell_ hmm, it seems like abs pos is a layout mode conceptually to me :(
# [18:32] <dael> Rossen: I know the definition, but as soon as we talk about grid and abspos items can be dependant on grid it's contextual. For 3 and above it's more than a rectangle and it better be more or you're stuck in the 90s.
# [18:32] <dael> Florian: What I'm hearing is that this is complex question and touches on what TabAtkins wanted to reopen.
# [18:32] <dael> Rossen: There's nothing complicated about question.
# [18:33] * fantasai does not believe it is straightforward
# [18:33] <dael> Rossen: If we're talking about abspos items only, that issue is very straightforward. If TabAtkins wants to reopen the % issue, we can do that at the F2F
# [18:33] <dael> Rossen: This is about items in a grid and has nothing to do with the bigger decision about percentages.
# [18:33] * bkardell_ believes fantasai in that it does not seem straightforward as it is presented as
# [18:33] * antonp thinks the containing block should always be a rectangle; and that abspos is probably its own layout mode that's independent of the layout mode of its ancestors
# [18:33] <dael> Rossen: So, what's going on? Are we discussing it or dropping by not discussing it.
# [18:33] * dbaron agrees that containing block should be a box associated with an element rather than just a rectangle, but otherwse isn't really following
# [18:34] <dael> fantasai: Well.
# [18:34] * tantek is trying to remember very old conversations about containing block
# [18:34] * Quits: ChrisL (clilley@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:34] <dael> fantasai: The reason it has to do with the other issue, if we revert on the other issue,this becomes moot. Why it's not straightforward is you and other people have different conceptual ideas of abspos and until we decide if it's its own layout mode or not, we have to solvet hat conceptual problem before we can tackle this.
# [18:34] <Florian> +1 to fantasai
# [18:35] <dael> fantasai: So I don't htink it's as straight forward as you think it is.
# [18:35] <dael> Rossen: So do we want to leave it to the F2F?
# [18:35] <dael> fantasai: I think that's a better idea.
# [18:35] <dael> Rossen: Okay. I'm not the one who put the item on.
# [18:35] <dael> fantasai: The chairs put it on after we decided last week to defer.
# [18:35] <dael> plinss: Let's defer to the F2F.
# [18:35] <tantek> Paris cage match!
# [18:35] <dael> Topic: Grid OM issue
# [18:36] <dael> fantasai: I said that this was answered on the ML. Did you not get that e-mail?
# [18:36] <dael> plinss: I didn't. We can skip.
# [18:36] <Florian> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jul/0432.html
# [18:36] <fantasai> email : https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jul/0436.html
# [18:36] <dael> Topic: interaction between overflow-x and -y
# [18:36] <dael> Florian: It would be good to have TabAtkins. We can maybe talk a bit without him.
# [18:37] * tantek dive dive! Aoooouuuga! Aoooouuuga!
# [18:37] <dael> Florian: Trying to summerize the current status. We hav contain: paint which is to enable optimizations at the paint level. What it wants to do is establish a containing block. Also to do clipping of anything that might overflow
# [18:37] * astearns just added the two flex/grid agenda items to the wiki page
# [18:37] * glazou tantek difficult night ?-)
# [18:38] * gregwhitworth thanks astearns, bless you :)
# [18:38] <dael> Florian: And earlier version called this magic clipping. There are things that depend on this going through the overflow property. Text overflow and resize only work if overflow is not visable. TabAtkins and I prop overflow: clip that does the same as hidden, but doesn't scroll. People said we could call it something else or we do something similar to clippath.
# [18:38] <tantek> overflow and clip are so confusing both in name (including values) and function that I have to look it up every time. This despite having implemented it in IE5/Mac.
# [18:39] <tantek> it's one of the worst parts of CSS 2 legacy.
# [18:39] <dael> Florian: Another point that was raised was if we go hidden: no-scroll is it needed? The browser can perhsaps just detect that the scrolling isn't used and skip it to be more efficent. This is akin to will-change where if we assume a smart enough browser it can be done, but it doesn't seem like they'll be smart enough soon.
# [18:40] <dael> Florian: We can say overflow: clip doesn't estabilish a BFC and you can have it only in one directionl for contain: paint this may work, but I'm not happy about it because there are parts of CSS that assumes it's visible or there's a BFC.
# [18:40] * smfr Florian you are fading in and out
# [18:40] * ChrisLilley who is heavy breathing?
# [18:40] * glazou Florian is too far from microphone, can’t hear him
# [18:40] <dael> Florian: If a resizable thing isn't a BFC, suddenly margins collapse. It's a possiblity. A
# [18:41] <dael> Florian: Other option is to rename it and it's the same as hidden, but you don't get to scroll. C is contain: paint invokes the regular overflow hidden and broswers just need tog et smart.
# [18:41] <dael> Florian: I don't like A much, but if all browsers can convince eachother to do the heuristic, C is good. TabAtkins doesn't think that'st he case, so if C won't do, I think B is what we should do.
# [18:41] <dael> Florian: There's some side questions, but that's the meat of the problem.
# [18:42] * fantasai thinks that A makes the most sense
# [18:42] <dael> smfr: What if you said that when contain: paint, it implies overflow:hidden, but in that scenario scrolling is disallowed. It would prevent scrolling and imply overflow: hidden.
# [18:43] <dael> Florian: I guess it's okay unless you want scrolling because then you can't access it. Contain paint provides other opimizations. If it's off screen, you know you don't have to paint so you can skip it. Say maybe you want it for that effect, but you're still interested in scrolling.
# [18:43] <dael> smfr: Arre you only concerned about where contain: paint and overflow: hidden are on the same element, or when the hidden is inside the contain.
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# [18:44] <dael> Florian: Not particularly the second. but overflow: hidden no-scroll allows for some optimized situations. contain: paint should be the superset of what you can get through overflow plus the rest so you have one switch that can turn it all on and it's fast. For speed it does work, but it reduces some things. Maybe it's a tradeoff and you can be fast or you can scroll.
# [18:44] <dael> fantasai: I'm a little confused as to why A is so bad.
# [18:45] <dael> fantasai: Not est a BFC is straightfoward.
# [18:45] * bradk likes smfr's idea. Seems simpler.
# [18:45] <dael> Florian: On it's own yes. But has the design of the resize prop considered if it's fine to not be a BFC. Design hasn't considered it. So maybe that's okay for resize until you resize to 0. It's not obvious author-wise.
# [18:46] <dael> fantasai: Resize right now only applies to elements with overflow not visible. So you would change it to also do clip. It's the same as visible and the only difference is you have this clip path and you may also want text overflow apply as an exception.
# [18:46] <dael> Florian: That's why I don't like A. It could work, but you have to get into these little details. Are there other parts of other specs we've forgotten. There are these ripple ffects and I'm not sure we have it under control.
# [18:47] <dael> fantasai: I don't think there's many. text-overflow is this weird case because compat issues. I don't htink there's that big of a problem with this kind of definition and I don't think the others are less complex.
# [18:48] <dael> Florian: If that's all, it's not that bad. The other weird thing with A for not establish a BFC...I'm okay with an overflow: clip that doesn't effect margin collaposing, but that invisible floats can poke through feels weirer.
# [18:48] <tantek> "invisible floats poking through" sounds very weird indeed
# [18:48] <dael> Florian: I'm not obj. to A, it jsut feels weird.
# [18:48] <dael> Rossen: It's def. weird.
# [18:48] <dael> fantasai: Yeah, that does seem weird.
# [18:48] <dael> dbaron: We offer a whole bunch of other ays to do visual clipping. clip path, clip to some degree.
# [18:48] <dael> s/ays/ways
# [18:49] * gregwhitworth anyone still there?
# [18:49] * gregwhitworth nevermind
# [18:49] <dael> fantasai: I don't have an obj either way, I just wanted to understand.
# [18:49] <dael> Florian: Between B and C, it's a matter of what browsers can do.
# [18:49] * fantasai is really interested in what dbaron thinks of all this
# [18:49] <dael> Rossen: Who wants A? Was that Mozilla?
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# [18:49] <dael> dbaron: I'd kind of like to see A. There are people that want to clip without the BFC.
# [18:50] <dael> Florian: But wouldn't that be more appropriate to explore through clip and clip path instead of overflow?
# [18:50] <dael> dbaron: Maybe.
# [18:50] <dael> Florian: But there is 1 nice thing about A is that it opens the poss to do overflow-x clip, elipsis, and overflow-y visible. That seems useful regardless of contain: paint. That's how I would justify A.
# [18:51] <dael> Florian: We previously resolved not to have that, so maybe it's not that strong a use case.
# [18:51] <gregwhitworth> I agree with smfr
# [18:51] <dael> smfr: I'm not convinced clipping only one axis is that useful and it would add to impl complexity.
# [18:51] <dael> Rossen: So are we leaning B?
# [18:51] <dael> Florian: I think you and smfr were agsint B and C.
# [18:51] <dael> Rossen: We are not for A. Let's start there.
# [18:52] <dael> Florian: So do we drop A?
# [18:52] <dael> plinss: Anyone advocating for A?
# [18:52] <dael> plinss: Okay, we'll ignore A.
# [18:52] <fantasai> I think the main problem with A) is that contain: paint wont' be able to use it, if floats outside of the element are not clipped
# [18:52] <dael> Florian: I think TabAtkins wants B. If everyone else wants B we can resolve. If not we need TabAtkins.
# [18:52] <dael> Rossen: I'm okay with B.
# [18:52] <dael> Rossen: B is the one that creates a BFC?
# [18:52] <fantasai> (clipped layoutwise, I mean)
# [18:53] <dael> Florian: You havea special value of overflow that creates a BFC and you can't scroll.
# [18:53] <fantasai> (in addition to paintwise)
# [18:53] <dael> smfr: Just like overflow: hidden, but you can't programatically scroll.
# [18:53] <dael> Florian: Yes.
# [18:53] <dael> smfr: It's making assumptions about impl details, btu I can live with B.
# [18:53] <dael> Rossen: B is more explicit for the users. It's decalring this won't scroll no matter what. If you're hidden is already declared. So B makes sense.
# [18:54] <dael> Florian: Since you both pushed for C before, I think if you're okay with B we can resolve.
# [18:54] <dael> Rossen: We can live with B. smfr?
# [18:54] <dael> smfr: I feel like B is sort of making up for a historical mistake. We're adding complexity because we've got a previous mistake which is why I feel C is better.
# [18:54] * fantasai kinda prefers calling it overflow: clip anyway
# [18:55] <dael> Rossen: I think you're right, but we are where we are and there are use cass where people want to prevent scrolling and they don't have that ability. They're making mistakes and now we're giving them an explicit way to say it's hidden because I don't want to scroll.
# [18:55] <dael> smfr: I can live with B.
# [18:56] <dael> Rossen: One bikeshed on B. Do we need the extra value, or can we make this an optional value to hidden?
# [18:56] <dael> Florian: It's hidden no-scroll
# [18:56] <dael> Rossen: I mistakenly heard it as hidden-no-scroll
# [18:56] <dael> ChrisLilley: Yes, I wan'ts clear on that.
# [18:56] <dael> Florian: I wanted hidden no-scroll
# [18:56] <dael> Rossen: Okay, then we have no problem.
# [18:57] <dael> smfr: Then if we use it on one axis, the other computes to auto?
# [18:57] <dael> Florian: Yeah.
# [18:57] <dael> fantasai: I think it would be easier to, as an author, pick one of these four options instead of one of these three and maybe a flag.
# [18:57] <smfr> yeah what does overflow: scroll no-scroll do?
# [18:57] <dael> Rossen: Is that true. I can see cases where people may or may not want to allow you to scroll the content given some parameters.
# [18:58] <dael> fantasai: So you're suggesting we have no-scroll as an option on scroll?
# [18:58] <dael> Rossen: To anything that's scrollable.
# [18:58] <dael> Florian: To me it's a flag on hidden only.
# [18:58] <dael> Rossen: I'm trying to figure out if there are other use cases we could cover. I can see forms where based on some form validation you might not want to let people scroll down.
# [18:59] <dael> fantasai: It's an interesting point, but I'd like to keep to a single value prop unless there's a really compelling reason.
# [18:59] <dael> Florian: The space instead of hyphen was to make it clear that it's a varient.
# [18:59] <dael> fantasai: I'm not sure that tie in is nec. Anyting other than visible makes a BFC.
# [18:59] <dael> Florian: clip confused people, so I'd rather not that.
# [19:00] <dael> fantasai: So another word. But it doesn't have to be connected to hidden. It's jsut here's your four values, pick one. It doesn't have to look like an extended varient. Authors might want to switch from hidden to this.
# [19:00] <ChrisLilley> overflow: (push) and overflow (pop)
# [19:00] <dael> Florian: So let's pick option B, defer naming to editors, everyone complains if we pick something bad.
# [19:00] * Quits: MaRakow (~MaRakow@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:00] <dael> RESOLVED: pick option B, defer naming to editors, everyone complains if they pick something bad
# [19:01] <dael> Florian: If you set a value other than visible on one axis and leave the other unset and then you set contain: paint, the rules of computed value on overflow, if you have visible in one direction and not the other it's visible. WE have different hings trying to change the visible, but which acts first. I'd say it goes to auto and if the authors want something we can make it explicit.
# [19:02] <dael> plinss: We're past the hour.
# [19:02] <dael> fantasai: If anyone wants to do an apt share for Paris tell me now so I can find space for the number of people.
# [19:02] <dael> Florian: I have 2 answers beyond mind.
# [19:02] <dael> fantasai: Yeah.
# [19:02] <dael> plinss: Thanks everyone. Talk to you next week.
# [19:02] <Florian> s/beyond/including/
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# [19:03] <Florian> s/mind/mine/
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# [19:04] <Florian> anybody interested in a mini bikeshed? "hidden no-scroll" "hidden-no-scroll" "none" "cut"
# [19:05] * fantasai is against the first two for being too damn long to type
# [19:05] <bradk> hidden-stuck
# [19:06] <Florian> the second one looks like long name because we couldn't find a name, so I don't like it. The first, one, despite being almost the same, looks like a short name with a switch, and I'm ok with that. But yeah, it's still long.
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# [19:07] <Florian> "none" might be fine. It's even shorter than hidden, which means people might start using it just to save some typing and didn't actually need the scrolling.
# [19:07] <Florian> (saving resources for everybody)
# [19:07] <fantasai> I'd prefer a word that captures the fact that stuff is not visible if it overflows
# [19:07] <fantasai> none just means "there is no overflow"
# [19:08] <fantasai> Does that mean it got clipped? Or does that mean we made the box bigger so that it doesn't overflow? ;)
# [19:08] <Florian> made the font smaller
# [19:08] <fantasai> :)
# [19:08] <Florian> or the author less verbose
# [19:08] <bradk> 'none' is cool, but will confuse new learners, who have to try to understand the difference between that and 'hidden'.
# [19:08] <fantasai> 'discard'?
# [19:08] <antonp> fwiw I quite like "none"
# [19:09] <Florian> new learners would pick none, which is good, since they almost never want the scroll part of hidden.
# [19:09] <bradk> But I guess that's a problem regardless.
# [19:09] <antonp> "hidden" quite nicely describes the current behaviour I think, since it really is there, but hidden
# [19:09] <Florian> discard might be ok, but I'm worried about confusion with the fragmentation of overflow property/values
# [19:09] <antonp> None implies it's not there, which indeed it isn't, to all intents and purposes.
# [19:09] <fantasai> actually, is that true?
# [19:09] <fantasai> if there are two linesof content
# [19:09] <fantasai> and they are too long to fit
# [19:10] <fantasai> and so get clipped by this value
# [19:10] <bradk> So far, I like 'none' best
# [19:10] <fantasai> and I select from the first to the middle of the second
# [19:10] <fantasai> have I selected the text that is clipped?
# [19:10] <fantasai> Will it get copied?
# [19:10] <fantasai> I think it will
# [19:10] <antonp> hmm, ok, good point
# [19:10] <fantasai> So discard isn't good either
# [19:10] * fantasai really thinks clip is the best
# [19:10] <Florian> that rules out discard, but maybe not none (although your other concern stays)
# [19:10] * fantasai can't remember why it's bad
# [19:11] <Florian> clip is what I started with, but then half the WG got onto "but then why doesn't it do the same as the clip property, and skip establishing a BFC". Or at least that was how I understood the feedback
# [19:12] <Florian> I was happy with clip until it seemed to confuse people.
# [19:12] * antonp wonders how clip (property) behaves with regard to fantasai's select-and-copy use case
# [19:13] <fantasai> no effect
# [19:13] <fantasai> it's just a painting level thing
# [19:13] <Florian> overflow: this-is-not-the-content-you-re-looking-for
# [19:13] <Florian> it's still there, but you don't notice it
# [19:13] <antonp> ok, that's what I imagined
# [19:13] <Florian> (sorry)
# [19:13] <fantasai> Florian: Were people actually confused, or was it just "but this is another possible interpretation that we need to consider"
# [19:14] <fantasai> ?
# [19:14] <Florian> fantasai: not sure.
# [19:14] <fantasai> Florian: Particularly given Mozilla implements the A) behavior, I think any name you'd choose would bring up the same question
# [19:15] <Florian> If we go for clip, that's less work for me, since the spec is already that way :) But I kind of like 'none' too now.
# [19:16] <Florian> in casual talk, does "you should clip this element" mean "overflow:clip" or "clip:border-box" (or something like that)?
# [19:17] <fantasai> Probably anything that has a clipping effect
# [19:18] <Florian> I meant: once we have both overflow:clip and clip-path:border-box, when 2 css designers talk to eachother, you cannot use word clip without being ambiguous.
# [19:19] <Florian> s/you/they/
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# [19:20] <Florian> I'll sleep on it, ping Tab (because of contain) and dbaron (co-editor), and see where that takes us. Maybe we'll stick with clip
# [19:21] <fantasai> Florian: They could also mean 'clip' or 'mask' or 'overflow: hidden'. They all clip
# [19:21] <Florian> dinner time, see you all
# [19:21] <fantasai> kk, laters
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# [21:30] <zcorpan> do people have any particular plans wrt hotel/apartment in paris?
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# [21:58] <SimonSapin> zcorpan: I’ll be at home, but https://wiki.mozilla.org/Paris#Hotels lists some that are close
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# [21:59] <zcorpan> thx
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# [22:35] * zcorpan booked Hôtel Vivienne
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# [23:06] <fantasai> zcorpan: I'm planning to book an apartment share nearby
# [23:06] <fantasai> zcorpan: put in the request today; waiting to hear back
# [23:07] <zcorpan> ok
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# [23:14] * tantek wonders how big fantasai's apartment share suite is going to be.
# [23:15] * leaverou_away is now known as leaverou
# [23:25] <fantasai> Depends on whether the current application gets approved. :)
# [23:26] <fantasai> But only two people replied to my email expressing any interest
# [23:26] <fantasai> So I assumed nobody else was interested.
# [23:26] * fantasai feels that this is a reasonable assumption, no?
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# Session Close: Thu Jul 30 00:00:00 2015

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