/irc-logs / mozilla / #developers / 2011-12-12 / end

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# Session Start: Mon Dec 12 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #developers
# [00:00] <darktrojan> is it possible in hg to create a branch from a revision that isn't the tip?
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# [00:01] <eflores> I think you can just update to that revision then branch
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# [00:01] <darktrojan> that sounds sensible
# [00:01] * darktrojan tries
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# [00:07] <darktrojan> seems to work
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# [00:09] <Unfocused> edmorley: i have a test bustage fix to land
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# [00:11] <edmorley> Unfocused: for aurora/beta?
# [00:11] <edmorley> ie the one you were talking about in fx-team?
# [00:11] <Unfocused> for aurora, but it needs to be on m-c too
# [00:11] <Unfocused> yep, that one
# [00:12] <Unfocused> i could land it with DONTBUILD
# [00:12] <Unfocused> on m-c
# [00:12] <edmorley> a=me for m-c
# [00:12] <Unfocused> ty :)
# [00:12] <Unfocused> any preference for DONTBUILD?
# [00:12] <edmorley> no problem :-)
# [00:13] <edmorley> i'd omit it, seeing as it would be good to check it fixes the problem
# [00:13] <edmorley> and the test pool isn't exactly being taxed at present...!
# [00:13] <edmorley> :-)
# [00:13] <Unfocused> ah yea, just noticed that :)
# [00:13] <Unfocused> ... not used to that!
# [00:14] <edmorley> Jesse said his fuzzer was loving it, given the spare capacity
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# [00:15] <Jesse> yeah
# [00:15] <nthomas> fuzzer doesn't run on the test pool, but same difference
# [00:15] <Jesse> right now my fuzzer is spewing complaints about a single regression, though
# [00:15] <Jesse> fuzzer runs on the build pool rather than the test pool (i'm not sure why)
# [00:16] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/85ebc694f95e - Blair McBride - Bug 709620 - Fix test_updatecheck.js when update channel is aurora/beta/release. r=bustage a=edmorley
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# [00:26] <eflores> darktrojan: Did that work?
# [00:26] <darktrojan> it did, thanks
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# [00:26] <darktrojan> whether it was worth it or not is a different matter
# [00:27] <eflores> Cool bananas
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# [00:27] * Unfocused prepares to make a one-line change to enable compatible-by-default addons on firefox 10
# [00:29] <darktrojan> don't break it!
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# [00:30] <darktrojan> those one line changes are dangerous
# [00:30] <Unfocused> wouldn't be the first one-line change i've screwed up...
# [00:31] <Unfocused> i'm re-running running the tests before pushing :)
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# [00:48] <NeilAway> khuey: Bas has given up on the Vista SDK, he requires something newer
# [00:49] <NeilAway> khuey: although if we still support --disable-angle then the Vista SDK might still work
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# [00:50] <lurking> Unfocused: looks like you have a 'red w' on Android opt :(
# [00:51] <philor> gasp!
# [00:52] <njn> khuey: ping
# [00:52] <philor> bonus points for it being a download failure
# [00:54] <edmorley> philor: see you're varying the 3.5 starring msgs up a bit :-)
# [00:54] <edmorley> .6 even
# [00:54] <njn> anyone know about nsPrefetchService.cpp
# [00:54] <njn> ?
# [00:54] <philor> edmorley: pretty soon I'll start on lyrics from the songs of my youth
# [00:55] <khuey> njn: pong
# [00:55] <njn> khuey: in http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/uriloader/prefetch/nsPrefetchService.cpp#832, we stuff NS_ERROR_NOT_AVAILABLE into a PRUint16
# [00:56] <Waldo> quality
# [00:56] <khuey> that's, uh, not good :-)
# [00:56] <Unfocused> wtf
# [00:56] <njn> khuey: any idea what the consequence might be?
# [00:56] * njn is convinced -Woverflow is righteous
# [00:56] <Unfocused> philor: ty!
# [00:57] * Waldo is convinced warnings are righteous...except when there are so many no one looks at them, and everyone just claims they're worthless anyway
# [00:57] <khuey> njn: well NS_ERROR_NOT_AVAILABLE is 0x8something
# [00:57] <Waldo> khuey: you don't have the lower 16 bits memorized?
# [00:57] <khuey> heh
# [00:58] <NeilAway> google says 0x80040111
# [00:58] <khuey> not for NOT_AVAILABLE
# [00:58] <khuey> I know failure is 80004005
# [00:58] <khuey> and UNEXPECTED is 8000FFFF
# [00:58] <Waldo> 256 + 16 + 1 == 273, looks
# [00:58] <khuey> but those are the only ones I know from memory
# [00:59] <njn> khuey: presumably nsPrefetchNode::GetStatus will look like it succeeded when it didn't
# [00:59] <Waldo> HTTP 273 is indeed a success status
# [01:00] <khuey> honestly idk wtf this interface is
# [01:00] <njn> khuey: ok, np
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# [01:00] <khuey> it looks like it's an internal thing
# [01:00] <khuey> but somebody stuck a DOM in it
# [01:00] <njn> shame bz isn't here
# [01:00] <khuey> but yes, this is what we like to call "not good"
# [01:01] <njn> khuey: I can file a bug, any idea what component?
# [01:01] <njn> it's under uriloader/
# [01:01] <Unfocused> General :: General
# [01:01] <khuey> Core::Document Navigation
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# [01:02] <khuey> CC me, bz, and smaug
# [01:02] <njn> khuey: thx
# [01:02] <njn> khuey: will do
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# [01:04] <Unfocused> booya: https://hg.mozilla.org/releases/mozilla-aurora/rev/3605cb8cb3db
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# [01:06] <philor> now all you have to do is wait, um, 15 hours? and see how your tests do
# [01:06] <heycam> Unfocused++
# [01:07] <Unfocused> sssh, don't jinx it
# [01:09] <njn> Waldo: you should add "[:Waldo]" to your bugzilla name
# [01:09] <njn> Waldo: there are three matches for "jwalden"
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# [01:11] <philor> how's the fxhelp one's review queue these days?
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# [01:11] * njn wonders why GCC says that |return static_cast<PRTime>(LONG_MAX) * kSecondsToMicroseconds;| overflows
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# [01:12] <njn> does about:telemetry work these days? It doesn't load anything for me
# [01:13] <njn> and I do have the add-on installed
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# [01:16] <bsmith> jcranmer Waldo: I would like to turn on warnings-as-errors in PSM and Necko soon. To do so, what would I need to change in the makefiles?
# [01:17] <Waldo> we used to have a makefile variable to do that; I don't know whether or not it still works
# [01:17] <Waldo> WARNINGS_AS_ERRORS=1, but I could be wrong about that
# [01:18] <bsmith> And, there is some general agreement that doing so is OK, right?
# [01:18] <njn> bsmith: ha!
# [01:18] <bsmith> It means that there will be more build failures on mozilla-inbound and mozilla-central
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# [01:18] <njn> bsmith: people will fight you tooth and nail
# [01:19] <Waldo> I believe it was explicitly a thing for modules to adopt as they wanted it, at least originally
# [01:19] <bsmith> because people will get a build on Linux and then the win32 build will fail
# [01:19] <Waldo> everyone and their esoteric compilers will come out in force to complain
# [01:19] <njn> bsmith: that's the usual complaint. try server helps a lot
# [01:19] <bsmith> I believe my team would be on board with it.
# [01:19] <njn> bsmith: oh yeah, you can only do it for TBPL builds
# [01:19] <njn> otherwise people with weird configs will get build failures all the time
# [01:20] * Waldo disagrees with that
# [01:20] <bsmith> How do I do it only for TBPL builds?
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# [01:20] <Waldo> you can support whatever weird compilers you want, or make them support themselves
# [01:20] <njn> Waldo: I tried it a while back for JS engine
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# [01:20] <njn> had to turn it off for that reason
# [01:20] <Waldo> yeah, and we rolled over like France or something
# [01:20] <bsmith> ha
# [01:20] <Waldo> we didn't even *try* to make it work
# [01:20] <njn> Waldo: after the 9th SPARC-only compile failure I got bored
# [01:20] <njn> TBPL-only coverage gives us 99% of what we want
# [01:21] <bsmith> sorry. I missed something before "had to turn it off for that reason"
# [01:21] <Waldo> I was working on fixing the straw that broke the camel's back when it got reverted, without even acknowledging my being willing to fix it
# [01:21] <bsmith> and after "how do I do it only for TBPL builds"
# [01:21] <Waldo> <njn> Waldo: I tried it a while back for JS engine
# [01:21] <Waldo> bsmith: ^
# [01:21] <njn> bsmith: if you only turn it on for TBPL builds, you only have to worry about the standard win/mac/linux compilers
# [01:21] <njn> which makes life much easier
# [01:22] <bsmith> IIRC, a lot of warnings are/were from telemetry headers
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# [01:22] <njn> Waldo: and I think we're on the same side of this argument :)
# [01:22] <Waldo> kinda
# [01:22] <bsmith> So, things like that, the performance team might make a change (to a header), and then PSM with WARNINGS_AS_ERRORS will kill the build
# [01:23] <Waldo> seems fair that they have to keep their headers warning-free to me...
# [01:23] <Waldo> ;-)
# [01:23] <bsmith> everybody would have to be using tryserver religiously to avoid breakage like that
# [01:23] <bsmith> I agree
# [01:23] * Waldo thinks the instance of new unknown warnings is lower than is posited
# [01:24] <bsmith> I just don't want to put a bunch effort into getting into a state where I could enable WARNINGS_AS_ERRORS for the modules I help maintain, and then have it disabled
# [01:24] <njn> bsmith: if you're in charge of the module, that helps
# [01:24] <bsmith> I am not so worried about the people in my module disabling it
# [01:24] <bsmith> as I am about build team disabling it
# [01:25] <Waldo> admittedly, every time I build SpiderMonkey on Windows I end up fixing Windows warnings, more or less, but even still we're talking a few at a time, over usually weeks in between builds
# [01:25] <njn> bsmith: if nothing else, the experience would be interesting -- if it doesn't cause problems, that's precedent for other modules
# [01:25] <Waldo> so a warning a week or something
# [01:25] <bsmith> OK. I am going to try it for PSM first.
# [01:25] <Waldo> doesn't seem like the end of the world for backouts
# [01:25] <njn> bsmith: I was arguing for this for the JS engine, but didn't get enough buy in, even though the JS engine is almost warning free right now
# [01:26] <khuey> who is "the build team">
# [01:26] <khuey> ?
# [01:26] <njn> bsmith: anyway, I say go for it
# [01:26] <njn> please :)
# [01:26] <Waldo> DO IT
# [01:27] <bsmith> khuey: I define them as the set of people that override my decisions related to PSM that aren't PSM peers, and basically own configure.in and the build system
# [01:27] <Waldo> khuey: ooh, look, a squirrel!
# [01:27] <Waldo> bsmith: DO IT
# [01:28] <khuey> heh
# [01:28] <dolske> nooooo that causes inconvienence when i cross compile for BeOS on VMS!
# [01:28] <khuey> if you're willing to deal with the fallout for all the random platforms
# [01:28] <khuey> knock yourself out
# [01:28] <Waldo> random platforms, i.e. not tier-1, are on their own as usual, right?
# [01:29] <khuey> the problem is not so much not tier-1 platforms
# [01:29] <khuey> as it is developers with some random version of the compiler or system headers that have warnings
# [01:29] <njn> bsmith: you really want this only for TBPL builds
# [01:30] <Waldo> be bold! live the adventure!
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# [01:30] <bsmith> What is the makefile condition to use for "if this is a TBPL build"
# [01:30] <Waldo> the only thing you have to fear is FEAR ITSELF
# [01:30] <njn> there are more people cross-compiling for BeOS on VMS than you think
# [01:30] <bsmith> Not anymore, since I broke BeOS support for PSM
# [01:30] <Waldo> I will personally stab each and every one of them
# [01:30] <njn> bsmith: we already do this for the JS engine shell builds on TBPL, but the results are hidden on tbpl.org by default
# [01:30] <NeilAway> njn: bah, that's nothing. I get build *failures* just because I'm using gcc 4.3.2 and apparently nobody else is
# [01:31] <khuey> that's the fun part, there is no conditional for it
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# [01:31] <njn> bsmith: I don't know what the mechanism is, but if you can find out how the JS engine does it...
# [01:31] * Waldo has a build failure to sort through that appears to be from using clang bleeding edge
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# [01:31] <philor> first you make yourself a totally separate build...
# [01:31] <philor> that's how JS does is
# [01:31] <khuey> the js engine has custom automation ...
# [01:31] <bsmith> I think it is better to have the default (for whatever modules opt in) be WARNINGS_AS_FAILURES, and provide a (mozconfig) flag for non-standard configs
# [01:31] <Waldo> TBPL builds may have mozconfigs or what-have-you with --enable-warnings-as-errors
# [01:31] <njn> no, dont' do it as a custom build!
# [01:32] <njn> that just gives people excuses to not make it stricter later
# [01:32] <bsmith> njn: I am not following you.
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# [01:32] <njn> bsmith: the JS engine can be built standalone, i.e. the shell
# [01:33] <njn> for shell builds we have warnings-as-errors on be default on TBPL, but the results aren't shown by default on tbpl.org
# [01:33] <bsmith> I see.
# [01:33] <njn> bsmith: you have to add &tinderbox=1
# [01:33] <njn> to see those builds
# [01:34] <njn> bsmith: or maybe it's &usetinderbox=1&jobname=spidermonkey
# [01:34] <njn> bsmith: because you don't see it by default, the policy is "warnings should be fixed soonish"
# [01:34] <philor> so, despite it only being done for builds that are only theirs, failures are not actually shown
# [01:34] <njn> bsmith: which means that the person who caused the warning might not end up doing it
# [01:34] <philor> and if you go looking for them, you'll see that they have some unfixed ones
# [01:34] <njn> somebody else does their shit work for them
# [01:34] <philor> but it's a great deal, you should do it!
# [01:34] <NeilAway> anyone know a good reason not to merge /nsIScriptError2?/ ?
# [01:35] <bsmith> The other issue is the set of warnings that are disabled by default
# [01:35] <njn> bsmith: so philor is recommending you get a custom build like that, and I'm suggesting you don't, that you make it strict
# [01:35] <njn> bsmith: so that any introduced warnings are caught and fixed/backed-out immediately
# [01:36] <bsmith> Is it the case that every module also can define the set of warnings that are enabled/disabled when compiling that module?
# [01:36] <khuey> no, philor is telling you that the only infrastructure we have in place to do what you want to do is the thing that njn says you shouldn't do
# [01:36] <bsmith> e.g. could PSM enable the off-by-default Windows warnings about 64-bit compatbiliity, even though other modules leave the defaults
# [01:36] <bsmith> ?
# [01:37] <njn> bsmith: AIUI there's a single place in configure.in that controls the warnings for each platform, I don't know if per-module overrides are possible
# [01:37] <dolske> i will support warnings-as-errors only if we generate a warning for multiline "} else {".
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# [01:37] <khuey> dolske: half our codebase splits that
# [01:37] <dolske> khuey: not my problem. :P
# [01:38] <philor> and I'm also telling you that the only people who have ever tried this, no matter how they have tried it, haven't actually wanted it
# [01:38] <bsmith> philor: why?
# [01:38] * Waldo actually wants it
# [01:38] <Waldo> and I have done pure warning fixes when I encounter them
# [01:39] <njn> the first path I wrote as a mozilla employee removed a bunch of warnings
# [01:39] <njn> *patch
# [01:39] <Waldo> and every time, I think of Mr. Incredible: "I just cleaned up this mess! could you keep it clean for...just a little..."
# [01:40] <njn> khuey: how do I print an nsACString? I can't use .get()
# [01:40] <bsmith> It would help if we could somehow get GCC and MSVC to emit warnings in the same situations as much as possibl
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# [01:40] <bsmith> I ensure I don't add warnings when I am building locally, but I often forget to check the logs of tryserver for warnings on non-Windows platforms
# [01:41] <njn> bsmith: you'll have to live with them warning about different things :/
# [01:41] <bsmith> For example, MSVC lets you mix nsRefPtr and nsCOMPtr more freely than GCC (I don't remember if this is a warning or an error)
# [01:42] * njn finds PromiseFlatCString
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# [01:44] <bsmith> The biggest reduction of warnings would come from fixing warnings in header files first.
# [01:44] <bsmith> (obviously)
# [01:44] <bsmith> since those warnings get repeated each time the header is included
# [01:45] <philor> so, what you do is probably flip MOZ_DISABLE_WARNINGS_AS_ERRORS, so it's opt-in, MOZ_ENABLE_WARNINGS_AS_ERRORS, and stick that in the in-tree mozconfigs
# [01:45] <philor> then all you have to do is listen over and over as people scream about having to back out, because they told try to build PGO to avoid breaking PGO, and PGO disables it for some misty reason
# [01:46] <bsmith> Yep.
# [01:46] <bsmith> Also, imagine if I did something crazy like made SAL mandatory in PSM. Pretty sure that wouldn't stick, even if the PSM team was happy to live with it.
# [01:47] <philor> and of course the thousands of people who didn't push a trivial patch to try, building on all platforms, because why would you?
# [01:47] <bsmith> yes, exactly.
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# [01:51] <NeilAway> do we have a list of the most common warnings, and how to code defensively to avoid generating them in the first place?
# [01:51] <bsmith> http://jenkins.gregoryszorc.com:9000/job/mozilla-central/145/warningsResult/NORMAL/
# [01:51] <bsmith> NeilAway ^
# [01:53] <bsmith> Regarding C4244, do we have a coding construct that says "I am assigning a larger integer type to a smaller integer type because I know it is in range"?
# [01:53] <bsmith> In a way that lets debug builds or some other special build check that the assumption is accurate?
# [01:53] <Waldo> explicit cast
# [01:53] <bsmith> I know an explicit cast will do it
# [01:53] <bsmith> but, I mean something like this:
# [01:53] <NeilAway> bah, I don't have script enabled
# [01:53] <bsmith> uint64_t x;
# [01:53] <Waldo> I don't think we have any helpers assert in-range, no
# [01:53] <bsmith> uint32_t y;
# [01:54] <NeilAway> why does everyone xhr their content these days?
# [01:54] <bsmith> y = truncate<uint32_t>(x);
# [01:55] <Waldo> we probably should add one
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# [01:56] <bsmith> unsigned/signed comparison is the other big one
# [01:58] <bsmith> There's also implicit conversion from unsigned int to long, which could really be a bug, but which doesn't generate a warning, IIRC.
# [01:58] <bsmith> (something I see in the patch I am reviewing now)
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# [02:00] <jduell> bsmith: I'd be in favor of making warnings barf in necko, FWIW. But also fine with you trying PSM first to see how it goes.
# [02:01] <bsmith> jduell: Yeah, I thought you would
# [02:01] <bsmith> jduell: By the way, do you have any idea about what to do about the fact that mozilla-central is basically closed indefinitely?
# [02:02] <jduell> bsmith: actually I hadn't heard. What's the issue, and define "indefinitely"
# [02:02] <bsmith> maybe it would be realistic to split off (part of) PSM and/or Necko into a separate shared library
# [02:02] <bsmith> jduell: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=709193
# [02:03] <bsmith> jduell: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=709193#c38
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# [02:03] <jduell> bsmith: yikes. Well, necko was it's own shared lib within 2 years ago,
# [02:03] <bsmith> indefinitely means potentially for multiple days, IIRC.
# [02:03] <jduell> so it probably wouldn't be too hard
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# [02:04] <bsmith> jduell: I am just thinking that if that drags on, we're going to be kind of screwed
# [02:04] <bsmith> bcause we have a lot of checkins to make, and they're all in libxul
# [02:04] <Waldo> except for js currently -_-
# [02:04] <bsmith> Waldo: I mean "we" as in necko team
# [02:05] <Waldo> :-)
# [02:05] <Waldo> sure
# [02:05] * Waldo tends to agree he has no idea what the path forward is here
# [02:05] <bsmith> I think many teams will be screwed
# [02:05] <bsmith> merge date is 9 days away
# [02:05] <bsmith> end of wharter is 20 days away
# [02:05] <bsmith> quarte3r
# [02:05] <bsmith> lots of code is going to (want to) land now
# [02:05] <bsmith> we are not going to have a net reduction in code, for sure
# [02:06] * Waldo isn't so much worried about "now" as when this will actually change somehow
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# [02:06] <Waldo> rapid release === mega-chillax about specifics of landings
# [02:06] <Waldo> but still
# [02:06] <Waldo> we need to be able to land stuff
# [02:07] <bsmith> Waldo: well, our team defined some goals as "get XXX into mozilla-central by the end of the quarter"
# [02:07] <bsmith> e.g. SPDYT
# [02:07] <bsmith> SPDY
# [02:07] <bsmith> In retrospect, that wasn't a great way to define the goal, but...
# [02:07] <Waldo> I think JS uses goals less than other teams may
# [02:07] * Waldo is pretty sure the tree will be opened again within a week
# [02:08] <Waldo> one way
# [02:08] <Waldo> or another
# [02:08] <Waldo> but how we get there, no idea at all
# [02:08] <bsmith> Yeah, but some features can't or shouldn't land unless they have *some* bake time on Nightly
# [02:09] <Waldo> I agree
# [02:09] * ewong|away is now known as ewong
# [02:10] <bsmith> jduell: I am thinking we could pull out at least SPDY, non-SSL parts of PSM, FTP, and other things that don't affect startup, into a new shared lib
# [02:10] <bsmith> with relatively little effort
# [02:10] <jduell> bsmith: any reason why we wouldn't just yank all of necko into its own shared lib?
# [02:10] <bsmith> and less chance of startup perf regressions.
# [02:11] <jduell> ah, startup
# [02:11] <bsmith> jduell: startup perf refressions
# [02:11] <jduell> Right. We might run into symbol sharing issues
# [02:11] <bsmith> jduell: and, extra disk seek to load the extra library
# [02:11] <bsmith> Oh.
# [02:11] <bsmith> Yeah
# [02:11] <jduell> Necko is written to assume that symbols are within the same shared lib. Not sure how much it would hit us in practice
# [02:12] <bsmith> gSocketThread
# [02:12] <bsmith> for example
# [02:12] <jduell> right,
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# [02:13] <bsmith> The problem is the linker running out of memory
# [02:13] <bsmith> maybe it would help if we made more things static, that should/can be static
# [02:13] <bsmith> so the linker doesn't see them
# [02:13] <bsmith> Do we have some kind of code analysis tool that could help automate that?
# [02:13] <jduell> bsmith: maybe. Sounds like it wouldn't buy much time, given that the RAM need grows exponentially
# [02:13] <bsmith> And/or, elminate unnecessary #includes
# [02:14] <jduell> Taras would be the one to ask about the analysis tools.
# [02:14] <jduell> Not sure if elim #includes would help. I assume by PGO time we're only dealing with actual symbols referred-to?
# [02:15] <jduell> bsmith: But splitting all of necko out temporarily might not be the worst solution to this, short-term.
# [02:16] <bsmith> jduell: I think with PGO, the compiler runs in the linker, effectively
# [02:16] <bsmith> so, less source code to compile -> less memory
# [02:16] <bsmith> basically, the compiler just outputs an AST
# [02:16] <bsmith> and the linker does the compiling
# [02:16] <jduell> bsmith: ah, possibly. Depends on where in the compilation process we're running out of memory
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# [02:17] <bsmith> If we did anything, how would we verify that it is "enough"
# [02:17] <bsmith> we might delay things by just a few days
# [02:17] <bsmith> or we could fix the problem basically permanently. how would we tell the difference
# [02:18] <bsmith> ?
# [02:18] <jduell> bsmith: I guess just watch how much RAM PGO takes up after we land fixed.
# [02:18] <jduell> fixes
# [02:18] <bsmith> Making more things static might not help for the PGO case, because all the code is going to be in memory
# [02:18] <bsmith> regardless of static vs extern
# [02:19] <bsmith> jduell: is there something bigger than necko, that we could pull out, that wouldn't likely affect startup?
# [02:19] <jduell> bsmith: I'm not the one to ask--bsmedberg, bz might know.
# [02:19] <bsmith> jduell: I think that necko is likely in the startup path, because of nsIURI et al., at least
# [02:20] <jduell> bsmith: how much do we expect startup to suffer from loading 2 DLLs instead of one?
# [02:20] <bsmith> same with PSM. That is why we have bugs on file to merge all NSS DLLs into libxul
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# [02:20] <bsmith> I think taras told me 50ms-100ms per DLL, potentially
# [02:20] <bsmith> obviously, it depends on the system a lot
# [02:20] <bsmith> if you assume one seek per DLL
# [02:21] <jduell> bsmith: sounds like a reasonable hit to suffer for a week or two until we get a better fix.
# [02:21] <bsmith> then it is seek time * number of DLLs, at least
# [02:21] * jduell tries to find bug that changed necko to link into libxul
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# [02:25] <nthomas> fwiw, it's not a RAM issue (these machines have 8G), it's an address space issue
# [02:26] <nthomas> hmm, or 4G some of them, but still it's the 3G virtual address space available to the linker
# [02:26] <jduell> bsmith: oh, right, I think the change was actually that we changed libnecko to be part of the DOM lib. So orthogonal to libxul or not. Though we could probably still link it separately.
# [02:27] <jduell> But https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=674579#c2 makes it sound like we're small potatoes
# [02:28] <bsmith> nthomas: do we know if it is running out of memory in the compilation phase or the linking phase?
# [02:28] <jduell> bsmith: though not as small as the other things listed in that comment
# [02:28] <bsmith> nthomas: or are the two phases of the LTO compiletely intertwined?
# [02:28] <nthomas> I trust the people who have been looking at inbound and say it's the linker
# [02:28] <khuey> njn: why can't you use .get?
# [02:31] <bsmith> jduell: I think the problem is that every module needs to get Init()d during startup
# [02:31] * Waldo wonders why the default fedora 15 mirrors seem to be so dog-slow right now
# [02:31] <bsmith> e.g. because it must be inited on the main thread, and that is the only place we can somehow guarantee that
# [02:31] <khuey> bsmith: in PGO the compilation phase and the linking phase are basically the same thing
# [02:31] <khuey> code generation is deferred until linking
# [02:32] <jduell> bsmith: I'm not an XPCOM whiz, but what's the problem with Init being called for each module.
# [02:32] <jduell> ?
# [02:32] <khuey> also, Necko is totally not on my list of things to split out
# [02:32] <khuey> we should start with video codecs
# [02:32] <khuey> snappy
# [02:32] <khuey> other non-XPCOM stuff that isn't important
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# [02:32] <bsmith> jduell: whatever modules you split out, you'd have to load at startup anyway, and then pay that seek cost
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# [02:33] <jduell> khuey: agree with you on long run, but for short term fix to get tree open?
# [02:33] <Unfocused> could shove them all in omni.ja, with a custom dlopen like android has
# [02:33] <khuey> the problem is not the runtime linker ...
# [02:34] <bsmith> khuey: The reason we are discussing Necko is because that is what jduell and I could most reasonably control
# [02:34] <khuey> sure
# [02:34] <jduell> And we know it was split out into its own lib not long ago, and likely to not have external link issues. But that may be true of codecs, etc, too
# [02:35] <bsmith> The thing is, SPDY wasn't a *huge* patch. A couple thousand new lines
# [02:35] <khuey> I wouldn't assume that it deosn't have external linking issues
# [02:35] <khuey> w'eve done a fair amount of deCOM since we killed libxul
# [02:35] <edmorley> i've just built seamonkey (after fixing it post libreg bustage); will things go horribly wrong if I use the same objdir to build thunderbird (to hopefully save build time)?
# [02:35] <khuey> yeah, we're standing right on the edge of the cliff now :-/
# [02:36] <bsmith> what kind of linker problems should we expect, if we split out (part of) Necko into its own library?
# [02:36] <jduell> khuey: yeah, but the necko APIs really don't refer to things higher up in the food chain. Until a few years ago we were committed to being able to ship it as a separare product
# [02:36] <bsmith> I could see references to global variables being a problem
# [02:36] <bsmith> but, i think most of our global variable usage being DEBUG-only
# [02:36] <khuey> jduell: but other things might be relying on necko symbols now
# [02:37] <khuey> bsmith: any non-virtual call into Necko will fail
# [02:37] <bsmith> khuey: but, won't we know what breaks at build time?
# [02:37] <khuey> right
# [02:37] <khuey> you will
# [02:37] <bsmith> why would any non-virtual call fail?
# [02:38] <bsmith> we would have to export all the symbols being relied on from the new library, of course
# [02:38] <jduell> khuey: it's possible, but I'd still be mildly surprised.
# [02:38] <khuey> we really don't want to export those symbols though
# [02:39] <bsmith> jduell: I suggest that we have this discussion this time tomorrow.
# [02:39] <bsmith> Maybe the problem will be solved by then
# [02:39] <bsmith> and if not, then our team sohuld find some way to resolve the issue locally
# [02:39] <jduell> bsmith: yeah, fair enough. I've got to run anyway.
# [02:39] * khuey should write that email that he's been thinking about
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# [02:40] <bsmith> Is there a place where the log of #developers is kept, that I can link to?
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# [02:42] <roc> I don't think we should be trying to break things out of libxul
# [02:42] <roc> that way lies madness
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# [02:44] <mbrubeck> bsmith: The only public IRC logs I know of for irc.mozilla.org are at http://irclog.gr/ and they don't seem to include #developers
# [02:44] <bsmith> mbrubeck: thanks
# [02:44] <bsmith> roc: I agree.
# [02:44] <glob> mbrubeck, do we want a logging bot in here?
# [02:44] <bsmith> But, depending on net reduction of code size using dead code removal seems unrealistic too
# [02:45] <philor> madness? this is mozilla!
# [02:45] <mbrubeck> I don't know if there's a reason there hasn't been a logging bot here. It seems like a good idea to have one, to me.
# [02:45] <bsmith> roc: so, it seems like making a major change to the build system or build machines is required
# [02:45] <bsmith> or pulling things out
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# [02:46] <roc> just fix bug 709480. If someone can get Win64-built 32-bit builds coming out of tryserver, as Nick started doing there, we'll be a long way towards solving this
# [02:47] <khuey> can we do that without changing the compiler version?
# [02:47] <khuey> I thought the win64 machines didn't have MSVC 2005
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# [02:53] <mfinkle> I have some Java and JS patches to land for Mobile
# [02:53] <mfinkle> who is handing out approvals?
# [02:53] <khuey> a=me
# [02:54] <mfinkle> thank you
# [02:54] <nigelb> as long as its not C++, its fine? :)
# [02:54] <khuey> pretty mcuh
# [02:54] <khuey> *much
# [02:54] <Unfocused> and i have a small js patch
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# [03:00] <gal> nthomas: ping
# [03:03] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/71dfb2adaf0f - Chris Peterson - Bug 706984 - Check whether profile directory exists to avoid NullPointerException. r=dougt a=khuey
# [03:03] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/1ce022be38d4 - Mark Finkle - Bug 709048 - Over usage of haptic buzz [r=mbrubeck a=khuey]
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# [03:05] <Unfocused> khuey: a? to land bug 706387 ?
# [03:06] <nthomas> gal: pong
# [03:06] <gal> hi there
# [03:07] <gal> I was curious how the libxul linking bug is going and who owns it?
# [03:07] <nthomas> 302 khuey
# [03:07] <khuey> Unfocused: js only?
# [03:07] <Unfocused> khuey: yep
# [03:07] <nthomas> gal: or did you mean 709480?
# [03:07] <Unfocused> and small at that
# [03:07] <khuey> Unfocused: a=me
# [03:07] <Unfocused> ty!
# [03:07] <gal> either, anything that gets the tree to open
# [03:07] <gal> ideally we should have more than one plan
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# [03:08] <nthomas> khuey: we have vs2005 and 2010 on the win64 boxes
# [03:08] <nthomas> bah, that's wrong
# [03:08] <nthomas> 2008 and 2010
# [03:08] <nthomas> IIRC we're still using 2005 on win32 at the moment
# [03:09] <khuey> correct
# [03:09] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/72a93b3fa2f9 - Blair McBride - Bug 706387 - Send the compatibility mode when using AMO Search API. r=dtownsend a=khuey
# [03:09] <khuey> so, my current plan, is to find some stuff we can chuck out of libxul into a separate library until we can get some builders that can use 4gb of address space online
# [03:10] <khuey> this currently exists only in my head
# [03:11] <mcmanus> khuey any guess at how many lines "some stuff" (for a very safe definition of some stuff) adds up to?
# [03:11] <khuey> no :-(
# [03:11] * nthomas passes round a ball of string, cut what you like off :-)
# [03:12] * larfdesk still likes the idea of a developer virtual machine
# [03:12] <mcmanus> any idea how many lines we add in a 6 week release window? IBM tracks all of this stuff as a risk metric - this is the first time it has ever seemed remotely useful to me.
# [03:12] <khuey> no, I have no idea
# [03:12] <khuey> we could look at the binary size though
# [03:12] <mcmanus> me either.
# [03:12] <khuey> and how much it goes up in 6 weeks
# [03:13] <khuey> that could tell us how far we need to push it down to buy N cycles
# [03:13] <Waldo> I bet someone (else) could script up information on that faster than it would take to generate those stats constantly
# [03:13] <khuey> (all guestimation of course)
# [03:13] <nthomas> I'm sure hg diff + diffstat could tell you, if you look at the right base tags in m-c
# [03:13] <gal> if we pick one big piece it should help immediately
# [03:13] <gal> the mobile team is saying uconv isn't needed at startup
# [03:13] <gal> ~ 800kb
# [03:14] <gal> that could make a difference
# [03:14] <khuey> I was thinking video codecs
# [03:14] <khuey> but idk how big they are
# [03:14] <gal> small
# [03:14] <gal> vpx is 120k
# [03:14] <khuey> (/me ducks from the new zealanders)
# [03:14] <Waldo> what size was spdy, for comparison?
# [03:15] <mcmanus> spdy is about 3500 loc
# [03:15] <gal> spdy is just code, I doubt its that big
# [03:15] <Waldo> or something else I have a hope of comparing for size?
# [03:15] <gal> uconv is crazy tables
# [03:15] <gal> khuey, do you know the right places to massage the makefile into spitting out a dynamically linked uconv?
# [03:15] <khuey> gal: I could figure it out
# [03:16] <gal> we should definitely try that
# [03:16] <gal> 2 days of tree closed with a freeze coming up is bad news
# [03:16] <khuey> indeed
# [03:17] <philor> how often would we need to release to actually get that benefit of people not worrying about whether they make the train?
# [03:17] <philor> 12 hours?
# [03:17] <khuey> continuously
# [03:17] <philor> ah, on-push
# [03:17] <khuey> yep
# [03:17] <khuey> it doesn't help that people like to set goals like "land foo by the end of the quarter" ;-)
# [03:17] <philor> goal met!
# [03:18] <philor> goal 2: have foo not get backed out
# [03:18] <khuey> heh
# [03:18] <khuey> ok, so
# [03:18] <khuey> xul.dll on beta is 15,719 KB
# [03:18] <khuey> on aurora it's 15,724 KB
# [03:19] <khuey> and on nightly it's 16,064 KB
# [03:19] <Unfocused> doesn't help when deadlines at set for you, either
# [03:19] <khuey> so we added a fair amount of code quite recenly ...
# [03:19] <khuey> this is december 3rd's nightly btw
# [03:19] * khuey updates
# [03:19] <gal> khuey, sounds like libuconv would definitely buy us a while
# [03:19] <gal> maybe a few weeks
# [03:20] <khuey> longer that that by the sounds of it
# [03:20] * khuey is impressed we only added 5KB between aurora and beta
# [03:20] <mcmanus> across 3 releases that's just 2% growth. that's slower than I would have guessed.
# [03:21] <bsmith> mcmanus: check your email for the contingency plan that jduell and I discussed earlier, if you missed it
# [03:21] <Unfocused> that's cos all the cool stuff is in JS
# [03:21] <bsmith> My guess is that if uconv is mostly tables then it isn't blowing up the linker's memory usage
# [03:22] <bsmith> but, worth a shot if it is possible.
# [03:22] <Unfocused> </flamebait>
# [03:22] <khuey> alright, tip nightly is 16,119 KB
# [03:22] <Waldo> Unfocused: assuming you meant the JS engine too, I'll allow it
# [03:22] <bsmith> IMO, it is *really* unfortunate to backout SPDY now
# [03:22] <Waldo> :-P
# [03:22] <khuey> we've put on a lot of weight in the last 5 weeks :-/
# [03:23] <bsmith> I would like to find a way to get SPDY back in ASAP
# [03:23] <Unfocused> heh, sure
# [03:23] <bsmith> because we already had public discussion that said SPDY was in Nightly
# [03:23] <Waldo> do these extra modules make me look fat?
# [03:23] <bsmith> and it is a high-profile thing
# [03:23] <bsmith> it was #1 on news.yc for example
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# [03:24] <bsmith> So, if the tree is closed for libxul changes anyway, why not try to land SPDY again and see if we can get it to keep building in the current state
# [03:25] <bsmith> and if it sticks, keep it in
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# [03:25] <bsmith> Did anybody try builds where SPDY was in but graphite was removed?
# [03:25] <bsmith> Or did we just try builds removing both?
# [03:27] <khuey> yes
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# [03:27] <khuey> SPDY in Graphite out failed
# [03:27] <khuey> SPDY out Graphite in worked 5/6 times
# [03:27] <khuey> gal: how did we get this 800 KB number?
# [03:27] <khuey> gal: in particular, how likely is it to be valid on windows?
# [03:28] <gal> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=674579#c2
# [03:28] <gal> khuey, only trying it will tell
# [03:29] <gal> if its easy enough, we should do it
# [03:29] <gal> might get the tree open in an hour
# [03:29] <khuey> I don't think it should be hard
# [03:29] <gal> I am not tall enough to touch Makefiles, god speed if you can do it
# [03:29] <khuey> let me finish this email summarizing the situation for .platform and I'll dive in
# [03:29] <gal> k
# [03:29] <khuey> gal: heh, pretty sure you're a fair bit taller than I am :-P
# [03:30] <gal> not when it comes to our build system
# [03:30] <gal> thanks for the email, btw
# [03:32] <edmorley> khuey: loc trends btw https://www.ohloh.net/p/firefox/analyses/latest
# [03:33] <edmorley> not that it really helps
# [03:33] <khuey> ok, email sent
# [03:33] * khuey dives into uconv
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# [03:35] <bsmith> khuey: a fun and useful experiment would be to move uconv into mozjs
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# [03:36] <bsmith> (and easy)
# [03:36] <bsmith> I admit, I am a little unsure as to what magic is needed in our build system to create a whole new shared lib
# [03:38] <khuey> moving uconv into its own dll is easier
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# [03:38] <khuey> the build system has magic to do xpcom shared libs
# [03:38] <khuey> trying to get that working while exporting spidermonkey symbols sounds painful
# [03:41] <bsmith> khuey: OK. It would be great if you could share your patch to do that somwehere, regardless of the results
# [03:41] <bsmith> so that I can see how to create a new shared lib in our build system, if nothing else
# [03:43] <mcmanus> Is there a known obstacle to running the 32bit linker on 64bit platform? Certainly seems like lowest risk.
# [03:44] <mcmanus> (I understand it isn't installed right now)
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# [03:44] <nthomas> mcmanus: feel free to jump on the failure for bug 709480 comment #4
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# [03:46] <mcmanus> is there a known reason, nthomas, that we can't use vs2005 on that platform?
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# [03:46] <nthomas> I don't know if it's installable
# [03:47] <nthomas> presumably it is
# [03:47] <Callek> nthomas: for what its worth I have MSVC2005 installed on w7 x64 locally
# [03:47] <Callek> but iirc I had to jump through hoops to get it installed/found/etc.
# [03:47] <Callek> its been a while now though
# [03:47] <mcmanus> pursuing that path seems to me like the lowest risk option... keeps our tool chain in tact along with xul.
# [03:48] <mcmanus> but I really have very little experience with windows build systems.
# [03:48] <gal> we should go after low risk quick solutions to open mc
# [03:49] <gal> we can do tool chain changes in the mid-term
# [03:50] * khuey forgot how much fun the external string api is
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# [03:54] <bsmith> gal: IMO, it is better to leave the tree closed than it is to introduce any startup speed regression
# [03:54] <bsmith> gal: otherwise, we will mask other startup speed regressions
# [03:55] <bsmith> so, it's got to be some solution that doesn't impact startup speed, IMO
# [03:56] <gal> bsmith, uconv is not on the startup path
# [03:56] <gal> according to the mobile bug
# [03:56] <gal> we measure startup on our infra
# [03:56] <gal> so we will see
# [03:56] <bsmith> gal: I think it is the thing where *most* of uconv isn't
# [03:56] <bsmith> but, we should try it
# [03:56] <bsmith> I think most of everything isn't in the startup path, but a tiny bit of everything is :(
# [03:57] <gal> I would right now take a small startup hit over m-c closed
# [03:57] <gal> once the real fix is in we can back this out
# [03:58] <gal> m-c needs to open, period
# [03:58] <gal> anything goes
# [03:58] <philor> cool, I'll land that hg rm js/xpconnect/*, r=gal
# [03:59] <gal> khuey, want to file yourself a bug and mark the dependency? JP will organize some more help for this morning toronto time
# [04:01] <jprmc> khuey: yes, please CC me
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# [04:02] <khuey> a bug on uconv, or just tossing stuff out of libxul in general?
# [04:03] <dolske> there are two "l"s in libxul, we could remove one...
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# [04:04] <bsmith> khuey: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=674579 seems like the bug for tossing things out of libxul in general (for a different motivation)
# [04:06] <philor> oh no, a Linux32 debug M1 orange, what on earth could that be?
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# [04:06] <khuey> bsmith: well, that bug is more about using magical tools that don't exist ;-)
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# [04:35] <edmorley> hi bholley :-)
# [04:35] <bholley> edmorley: hi!
# [04:35] <bholley> edmorley: sounds like you had a busy weeekend
# [04:35] <bholley> er
# [04:35] <bholley> weekend
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# [04:36] <edmorley> it's felt long enough that weeeeekend is probably more appropriate!
# [04:36] <bholley> heh
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# [05:33] <darktrojan> who's doing approvals?
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# [05:36] <khuey> what do you have to land?
# [05:36] <darktrojan> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=578814&action=diff
# [05:37] <khuey> a=me
# [05:37] <darktrojan> nice, ta
# [05:39] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/1e81f179adf2 - Geoff Lankow - Bug 702748 - Use a pref for disabling per-site remembering of download directory; r=gavin.sharp, a=khuey
# [05:39] <darktrojan> might as well give the machines something to do
# [05:39] <khuey> they could run Jesse's fuzzers
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# [05:42] <mbrubeck> could and do, I believe
# [05:42] <khuey> yes, they do
# [05:43] <darktrojan> if only we could get them to write code for us too
# [05:46] <philor> or better, remove it
# [05:46] <darktrojan> yes
# [05:46] <khuey> a fuzzer that randomly removed code and saw if any of the tests started failing would be fun
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# [05:47] <darktrojan> heh
# [05:48] <darktrojan> that assumes our tests actually test everything which is far from true
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# [05:49] <khuey> I think it would teach people to write better tests
# [05:51] <darktrojan> "if you want this feature kept, you'd better write a test for it"
# [05:51] <darktrojan> that's not a bad idea actually
# [05:51] <khuey> if there's no tests there's nothing to stop people from breaking it anyways
# [05:52] <darktrojan> exactly
# [05:55] <darktrojan> I'm going afk for about 20 minutes, if something breaks on that push I'll pull it out when I return
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# [06:08] <Callek> khuey: regarding weird ways to break stuff, I wonder how much fun it would be if AMO ever shipped a blocklist that blocked the default theme, when no other theme is installed
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# [06:08] <Callek> :-)
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# [06:09] <KWierso> Callek: Firefox reverts to Lynx when that happens
# [06:09] <KWierso> :)
# [06:09] <khuey> Callek: how nice of you to volunteer to write tests for that
# [06:10] <Callek> khuey: my test is a litmus test of our release userbase
# [06:10] * Callek pushes that blocklist change to the masses
# [06:11] <khuey> woah
# [06:11] <khuey> this stuff actually worked
# [06:11] * Callek wonders what "this stuff" is
# [06:11] <khuey> splitting uconv out of libxul
# [06:11] <khuey> I got it to build, at least
# [06:12] <ewong> so it's "take things out of libxul"?
# [06:12] <khuey> it's an amusing reversal isn't it?
# [06:13] <Callek> khuey: out of necessity though
# [06:13] * nthomas is now known as nthomas|away
# [06:13] <Callek> I _really_ wish the linker could have done this without using this much virtual space though
# [06:13] <Callek> hopefully by MSVC2020 it will be better
# [06:13] <Callek> :-)
# [06:13] <Unfocused> Callek: i don't think blocklisting the default theme would have any affect, other than showing blocked in the addons manager. iirc, if extensions.ini doesn't contain a theme, it automatically uses what's in the application directory
# [06:13] <ewong> khuey: anything to quicken libxul's creation..
# [06:14] <Callek> Unfocused: would it harm our default theme uses directly?
# [06:15] <Callek> for ourselves anyway
# [06:15] <Unfocused> how do you mean?
# [06:15] <Callek> O well, either way sounds scary enough to not want e to do it
# [06:15] * Callek realizes he didn't ask that well
# [06:17] <khuey> Unfocused: are you saying we don't have tests for this? ;-)
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# [06:17] <Unfocused> heh, i don't recall any test blocklisting the default theme, no :P
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# [06:18] <ewong> khuey when you removed uconv from libxul... from what I've been told.. it's not just a build-config thing.. right?
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# [06:18] <khuey> nope
# [06:18] <khuey> there's some fun xpcom goop involved too
# [06:18] * khuey attempts to figure out how to run xpcshell tests
# [06:18] <Unfocused> make -C dir xpcshell-tests
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# [06:19] <khuey> aha, wrong dir
# [06:19] <khuey> oh yay, startup crash
# [06:19] * khuey sighs
# [06:20] <ewong> oh... so building != working/running (first lesson of the day)
# [06:20] <KWierso> at least it built
# [06:20] <khuey> oh, I'm just an idiot
# [06:20] <khuey> bool Foo()
# [06:20] <khuey> {
# [06:20] <khuey> return Foo();
# [06:20] <khuey> }
# [06:20] <khuey> :-P
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# [06:21] <khuey> woo
# [06:21] <khuey> tests are passing
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# [06:22] <Callek> khuey: thats an awesome Cpp testcase for a crash
# [06:22] <khuey> heh
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# [06:23] <Callek> khuey: though aiui most Cpp compilers should abort there with infinite recursion exception, no?
# [06:23] * alex|afk is now known as alex
# [06:23] <Callek> unless its a VERY simplified testcase from the real issue of course.
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# [06:25] <khuey> Callek: MSVC just gives a warning
# [06:25] <khuey> we probably should turn that into an error
# [06:25] <khuey> since that's never what you want
# [06:25] <khuey> does try: -a still work?
# [06:25] <Callek> khuey: I nominate you to send that "warning as error" one to try :-P
# [06:26] <khuey> heh
# [06:26] <richardus> hello mozillians, you guys just hit hacker news! i'm sure the dumb comments i'm already seeing would appreciate some of your in-depth knowledge http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3342291
# [06:27] <richardus> (the thread's about the linker ooming bug)
# [06:27] <khuey> LOL
# [06:27] <khuey> maybe I should have picked a better title
# [06:28] <Unfocused> i nominate khuey to reply to all the stupid comments there
# [06:29] <richardus> if only there was a way to play the nose game on irc
# [06:30] <Callek> khuey: whatever title you chose would have SOMEONE write this kind of bad story
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# [06:30] <KWierso> "Unfortunately support for embedding Gecko has been woeful, making experiments in this area difficult. The lack of an embedding story for Gecko is a big reason for it losing ground to WebKit in my opinion."
# [06:30] <KWierso> ...
# [06:31] <dougt> KWierso: right?
# [06:31] <Jesse> khuey: we should be able to estimate find out how much time MSVC2010 will buy us, by looking at its peak memory use
# [06:31] <Jesse> is 64-bit MSVC still unable to create 32-bit binaries?
# [06:31] <khuey> Jesse: yes, but somebody has to do that
# [06:31] <khuey> Jesse: there's no x64->x86 cross compiler, if that's what you're asking
# [06:32] * KWierso nominates khuey
# [06:32] <khuey> somebody who can hop onto build machines needs to do that
# [06:32] <rnewman> I threw up a quick comment: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3342426
# [06:33] <Jesse> "cross compiler? why would you want your compiler to be angry at you?"
# [06:33] <Jesse> "holygoat"? hah
# [06:33] <KWierso> rnewman: oh god, you linked to the bug report
# [06:34] <darktrojan> hmm, that was a few more than 20 minutes, but on the other hand, cheese scones!
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# [06:35] <rnewman> KWierso: maybe I'll edit that out :)
# [06:35] <rnewman> changed to "See Bugzilla" :)
# [06:35] <KWierso> :)
# [06:35] <rnewman> anyone who's smart enough to know what to search for can find it :D
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# [06:36] <KWierso> rnewman: especially since it's linked to in the dev.platform thread :)
# [06:36] <rnewman> most readers: "tl;dr"
# [06:36] <rnewman> :D
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# [06:42] * khuey commented
# [06:42] <khuey> if you have a HN account you should go vote me up
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# [06:44] <mcpherrin> f
# [06:48] * nigelb goes to upvote khuey
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# [06:49] <glob> "See Bugzilla for the full scoop." ... perhaps that should be slightly more specific :)
# [06:49] <glob> rnewman ^
# [06:50] <rnewman> glob: heh, I unspecific'ed it to avoid bugspam from the uninformed
# [06:50] <rnewman> fair criticism from KWierso, IMO
# [06:50] <Jesse> rnewman: oops we both replied to http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3342389
# [06:51] <rnewman> yeah
# [06:51] <rnewman> that thread is going to get facthammered
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# [06:52] <jgilbert> but rnewman, facts are so dull and boring!
# [06:53] <rnewman> we should tell them that Fennec is faster because of Nazi gold
# [06:53] <rnewman> godwin the shit out of it
# [06:53] <khuey> haha
# [06:53] <heycam> you linked… poorly
# [06:53] <nigelb> Isn't there a rule about how long it takes in an arguement before someone brings in Hitler/Nazis
# [06:53] <rnewman> nigelb: yes, Godwin's Law
# [06:54] <rnewman> hence "godwin the shit out of it"
# [06:54] <rnewman> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
# [06:54] <nigelb> Aha, right
# [06:55] <JonathanS> it would be sad world if everybody believe in lie.
# [06:56] <nigelb> who's holygoat on HN?
# [06:56] * nigelb guesses rnewman
# [06:56] <rnewman> indeeed
# [06:57] <Jesse> "tl;dr: hit a compiler/linker bug, will have it fixed in a day or two." optimistic!
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# [06:58] <JonathanS> Jesse, that must be a big bug.
# [06:58] <Callek> Jesse: we're already green!
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# [06:58] <Callek> just not open :-p
# [06:58] <JonathanS> Callek, no landing?
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# [06:59] <JonathanS> I guess reland SDPY would take a few days, perhaps
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# [07:01] <Jesse> rnewman: i like your term "facthammered"
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# [07:07] <rnewman> heh
# [07:07] <mbrubeck> Jesse: Hmm, I wonder why that article isn't on the HN front page?
# [07:08] <mbrubeck> Based on the score I'd expect it to at least be in the top 100, but it doesn't seem to be
# [07:08] <mbrubeck> I wonder if there's a "submitted by a new user" penalty... or if it got manually killed
# [07:08] <nigelb> HN has an unusual scoring strategy.
# [07:09] <mbrubeck> PG's always tweaking it, too.
# [07:09] <Jesse> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3342291 has 13 points, everything on the main page has more
# [07:10] <mbrubeck> Jesse: But its newness should be a significant boost.
# [07:10] <doublec> when I first saw it it was on the front page
# [07:11] <mbrubeck> I wonder if it got flagged off
# [07:11] <doublec> it's not on 'new' for me either
# [07:11] <doublec> I suspect it's been killed
# [07:11] <mbrubeck> the intense flaghammering might have led some readers to reach for the 'flag' link
# [07:11] <mbrubeck> s/flaghammer/facthammer/
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# [07:21] <JonathanS> Wow, a lot of dead code.
# [07:25] <dolske> didn't chromium run into these same problems around the time we did?
# [07:25] <dolske> (the first time)
# [07:25] <gal> 640kb is enough for everyone, why would a linker need more than that?
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# [07:26] <JonathanS> gal, how you run Windows on that ?
# [07:27] <JonathanS> dolske, in http://www.chromium.org/developers/how-tos/build-instructions-windows#TOC-Build-environment, "A 64 bit OS is highly recommended as building on 32 bit OS is constantly becoming harder, is a lot slower and is not actively maintained."
# [07:27] <gal> dunno, ask bill gates, they made it work with windows up to windows 3.0
# [07:27] <gal> sounds promising, maybe building on 64-bit windows is easier than we thought
# [07:28] <JonathanS> cross-arch :P
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# [07:30] <JonathanS> gal, at least 64-bit linker would have much more memory
# [07:30] <gal> I just tried to post in twitter, until I remembered that I won't be doing that from here
# [07:31] <JonathanS> if linker act like Twitter, it would fail if it is trying to write more than 140 characters.
# [07:32] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/5c64fb241d4e - Richard Newman - Bug 709432 - don't unconditionally replace inserted record GUIDs. r=blassey, a=blassey (Java-only)
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# [08:18] <tn> i get "failed to get asn from coreservices" when running a debug build i built on mac, not very familiar with mac, so i have no idea
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# [08:22] <dRdR> I have an interface, a base class, and a child class. the base class inherits from the interface, and the child class inherits from the base class. I want to implement the functionality of the interface on the child class. how do I arrange my macros?
# [08:24] <mounir> is zimbra down again?
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# [08:24] <hub> mounir: so I heard
# [08:25] <KWierso> mounir: #it says they're on it
# [08:25] <mounir> classy
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# [08:30] <glazou> bonjour
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# [08:41] <darktrojan> I wonder if we should not sync tabs that have a chrome page open
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# [08:45] <KWierso> darktrojan: why not?
# [08:46] <darktrojan> I can't think why you'd want a chrome url open on another machine
# [08:46] <darktrojan> but maybe that's just me
# [08:46] <darktrojan> we already block about urls
# [08:48] <hsivonen> hmm. maybe I should land the old View Source removal sooner than later...
# [08:48] <darktrojan> heh
# [08:48] <darktrojan> well we're not using it
# [08:49] <hsivonen> the last one of the regressions from the new View Source just got r+ and hasn't landed yet
# [08:50] <hsivonen> removing the old one before the new one is further along in the release pipeline would be against the spirit of the Rapid Release rules
# [08:50] <hsivonen> but I guess code removal just got more important
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# [09:02] <KWierso> hsivonen: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v444/KWierso/removeallthethings.jpg
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# [09:40] <darktrojan> !seen bbondy
# [09:41] <firebot> bbondy was last seen 2 days, 13 hours, 14 minutes and 32 seconds ago, saying 'fair enough I just wanted to get clarification, thanks.' in #developers.
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# [09:42] <dolske> win 70
# [09:42] <dolske> bah
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# [09:45] <ewong> KWierso: heh
# [09:45] <sewardj> !seen dbaron
# [09:45] <firebot> dbaron was last seen 3 days, 8 hours, 27 minutes and 50 seconds ago, saying 'dietrich, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=539356' in #developers.
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# [09:47] * darktrojan prods firebot
# [09:48] <darktrojan> I think it's been silenced :(
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# [09:49] <KWierso> firebot's been neutered, at least in #developers
# [09:49] <KWierso> I think you have to say something like
# [09:50] <KWierso> firebot: bug 539356
# [09:50] <firebot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=539356 nor, --, ---, ventnor.bugzilla, NEW, Replace Invalidate() calls in reflow with display list analysis
# [09:50] <KWierso> for it to do anything
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# [09:50] <darktrojan> I think also xchat is doing something I didn't expect
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# [09:51] * Unfocused eyes glob
# [09:51] * glob whistles
# [09:52] <Unfocused> officially hosted?
# [09:52] <glob> no, but has been doing logging duties on #bugzilla since '04
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# [09:52] <Unfocused> ah
# [09:53] <Unfocused> cos... this would be useful
# [09:53] <hsivonen> can someone give me approval for landing https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=700034 on m-c? (Chrome .js only change.)
# [09:53] <Unfocused> in other open source projects that have irc logging, it's really useful to link to an area of chat logs
# [09:54] <Unfocused> hsivonen: a=me
# [09:54] <hsivonen> Unfocused: thanks
# [09:54] * philor is now known as philor|away
# [09:55] <darktrojan> hsivonen, did we get any further with line numbers for non-html documents?
# [09:55] <hsivonen> darktrojan: not yet
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# [09:59] <darktrojan> gah
# [09:59] <darktrojan> stupid unity
# [09:59] <Unfocused> ?
# [10:00] <darktrojan> I hate the way the window buttons sometimes operate on a window that isn't the foremost one
# [10:00] <Unfocused> they do?
# [10:01] <darktrojan> I just clicked on trash, so the trash was in front and maximised, but when I clicked close, it closed xchat
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# [10:01] <Unfocused> :\
# [10:01] <Unfocused> hm, i think i may have hit that once
# [10:01] <darktrojan> stunning usability
# [10:02] <darktrojan> I've done it a lot :(
# [10:02] <hsivonen> stuns the user?
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# [10:02] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/15fb7f28f213 - Henri Sivonen - Bug 700034 - Wait for the view source doc to load before reading its .body.textContent when feeding an external editor. r=gavin.sharp, a=Unfocused.
# [10:02] <darktrojan> that moment of "wtf" could be considered stunning, I guess
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# [10:02] <Unfocused> heh
# [10:03] <Unfocused> sounds more like a bug to me
# [10:03] <dolske> navigator.stunner.volts
# [10:03] <hsivonen> ok. now all the regression fixes for the new View Source have landed
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# [10:03] <Unfocused> hsivonen: nice
# [10:04] <Unfocused> next comes the cleansing with fire?
# [10:04] <hsivonen> time to prepare patch for turning the new View Source off on Aurora and leave the call whether to land all the fixes on Aurora or reverting to the old View Source on Aurora to the release drivers
# [10:04] <Unfocused> dolske: do USB cattle prods exist?
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# [10:05] <hsivonen> Unfocused: if cleaning with fire means removing the old view source code, that's still unlanded
# [10:05] <darktrojan> Unfocused, wire a capacitor to a usb port and find out
# [10:05] <hsivonen> (to follow the Rapid Release rules that require the ability to turn new stuff off for a while)
# [10:05] <Unfocused> heh
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# [10:05] <Unfocused> ah, yea, i guess
# [10:06] <hsivonen> s/cleaning/cleansing/
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# [10:07] <Callek> hsivonen: well we're *mostly* interested in cleaning with fire stuff that affects libxul size atm
# [10:07] <Callek> hsivonen: and iirc old view source was xul/js/etc.
# [10:07] <Callek> but we can certainly take it :-)
# [10:07] <Callek> hsivonen: err actually no I don't think we can take it
# [10:07] <hsivonen> Callek: nope, the old View Source stuff waiting for removal is C++
# [10:07] <Callek> (seaMonkey :-P _
# [10:07] <Jesse> when do we get to drop the old HTML parser and content sink code?
# [10:07] <Unfocused> sea-who?
# [10:08] <Callek> hsivonen: unless the new view source stuff works outside Firefox
# [10:08] <hsivonen> Jesse: not yet :-(
# [10:08] <hsivonen> Jesse: but there's progress
# [10:08] <Callek> hsivonen: if SeaMonkey can make use of the newer view source code, please please give us info on how, and/or verify we're already using it
# [10:09] <Callek> hsivonen: http://mxr.mozilla.org/comm-central/
# [10:09] <Callek> hsivonen: either way, *even* if youre removing it from m-c for this issue, please please please get a bug on file for SeaMonkey and give us all the details you can on how to migrate without loss of functionality :-)
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# [10:10] <hsivonen> Callek: if SeaMonkey uses toolkit/components/viewsource/content/viewSource.js it should be already ok
# [10:10] <Unfocused> Callek: speaking of which, you'll want a SM/TB bug for the preference part of bug 706387
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# [10:11] <Callek> Unfocused: I vaguely recall reviewing a patch earlier today for that very issue
# [10:11] * Callek checks
# [10:11] <hsivonen> Callek: the choice of the View Source back end happens in nsHTMLDocument.cpp, chances are SeaMonkey has already pulled the code that opts to use the new back end
# [10:12] <Unfocused> already? huh
# [10:12] <Unfocused> the SM bugs for other pref changes for default-to-compatible have been files by SM guys before i got a chance to...it was quick
# [10:12] <Callek> Unfocused: hrm maybe not I can't find the bug atm
# [10:13] * Callek looks more closely
# [10:13] <hsivonen> I did hg pull -u on Aurora and got +1 head. why?
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# [10:13] <darktrojan> mq?
# [10:13] <hsivonen> darktrojan: good point. doh
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# [10:14] <Unfocused> oh, good... cos otherwise it would have meant i screwed up and made a new head
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# [10:18] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/c65be44ac489 - Doug Turner - Bug 708280 - delay checking checking for update until idle to avoid startup path. r=mfinkle
# [10:18] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/03ed6af51318 - Doug Turner - Bug 708200 - Do not create timer to fire geckoLoaded. r=blassey
# [10:18] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/0ce8da61c6cc - Doug Turner - Bug 709595 - Add a name for each java thread and timer to aide with debugging. r=blassey
# [10:19] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/bcc015450e7a - Doug Turner - Bug 709658 - Do not startup GL until we are ready to paint something. r=blassey a=cjones
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# [10:26] <dRdR> does anyone know how to resolve the following errors? http://pastebin.mozilla.org/1402504
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# [10:26] <dRdR> AddRef(), Release(), QueryInterface() linker errors
# [10:26] <dRdR> the code I'm using seems to work on windows but not on mac
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# [10:30] <haygus> Hi
# [10:31] <haygus> jcranmer|away: Hey, ping, :)
# [10:32] <glandium> dRdR: looks like your are missing the implementation for those
# [10:32] <dRdR> glandium: I have NS_DECL_NSISUPPORTS_INHERITED
# [10:32] <dRdR> I also tried without inherited (even though it is)
# [10:33] <dRdR> same error
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# [10:34] <glandium> dRdR: do you have an NS_IMPL_ISUPPORTSn ?
# [10:34] <dRdR> glandium: no! I just saw that right when you asked :p
# [10:34] <dRdR> thanks
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# [10:35] <dRdR> (I swear)
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# [10:55] <NeilAway> Ms2ger is our resident interface folder, right?
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# [11:03] <nigelb> lol
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# [11:04] <haygus> jcranmer|away: have nice day, bybye
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# [11:05] <edmorley> NeilAway: I think that's pretty much his purpose in life (other than being our resident International Man Of Mystery) :-)
# [11:05] <nigelb> haha
# [11:05] <nigelb> man, I wish I hadn't qdb'd so soon.
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# [11:07] <darktrojan> ms2ger is a bot
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# [11:41] <darktrojan> it's amazing how much time you can spend/waste maintaining add-ons
# [11:41] * glob|away is now known as glob
# [11:42] <gabor> as an addon developer or as a user?
# [11:42] <darktrojan> developer
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# [11:44] <gabor> that does not sound too good... why does it takes so much time? too many changes?
# [11:44] <darktrojan> mostly I am replacing old code with better code that I've learnt since
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# [11:47] <imphil> great that german news sites now report every tiny bit about Firefox... http://www.golem.de/1112/88347.html (Headline "Firefox is too big")
# [11:47] <gabor> right... that's indeed a never ending story...
# [11:48] <darktrojan> unleash the facthammer
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# [11:49] <darktrojan> why are journalists morons?
# [11:49] <edmorley> it's being picked apart by mozilla-zine as well
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# [11:54] <edmorley> dougt: could those native crashes on m-c tip be related?
# [11:54] <edmorley> (M1, M2)
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# [12:05] <hsivonen> edmorley: there's a mozilla-zine?
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# [12:05] <edmorley> http://forums.mozillazine.org/index.php
# [12:05] <hsivonen> oh. forums still alive.
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# [12:06] * hsivonen is one of those hipsters who've been around since the 90s without ever signing up for a mozillazine account
# [12:06] <smaug> since 90s ?
# [12:06] <smaug> hmm
# [12:07] <Tobbi> Oh, speaking of mozillazine, is there an API for searching the KB?
# [12:07] <smaug> I think I filed my first bug 2002
# [12:08] <edmorley> I don't normally look at those forums, but with only one tree for philor and I to star between us (and no inbound merging), I was finding other forms of procrastination :-)
# [12:09] <smaug> ah, it was 2001
# [12:10] <hsivonen> smaug: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=20211
# [12:11] <darktrojan> edmorley, there's plenty of bugs you could fix :)
# [12:11] <hsivonen> back then the version numbers were M16, M17, M18 and users didn't complain about them incrementing by one every time :-)
# [12:11] <darktrojan> heh
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# [12:12] <edmorley> darktrojan: I was just filling time until I have to leave in 30 mins :-)
# [12:14] <smaug> hsivonen: indeed
# [12:15] <Callek> hsivonen: we should just increase by binary instead next (release) version will be 1001
# [12:15] <Callek> errr that binary is wrong
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# [12:15] <smaug> I wonder if there is still some old-style theme for FF. I liked the theme used in 1999-2000
# [12:15] <Callek> err no its not
# [12:15] <Callek> grr my mind is foggy
# [12:15] <mak> edmorley: what's the QOS difference of inbound compared to central?
# [12:16] <edmorley> or just use the m-c revision number
# [12:16] <glob> ah, i remember the early milestones .. we were probably distracted by the constant crashing to worry about the version number changing
# [12:16] <smontagu> smaug: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/past-modern/ ?
# [12:17] <smontagu> though I think that is more like 2001-2
# [12:17] <hsivonen> smaug: you like this? http://hsivonen.iki.fi/screen/mozilla-m16.png
# [12:17] <smaug> smontagu: it was before that
# [12:18] <smaug> that one
# [12:19] <edmorley> mak: I guess that phrase wasn't the clearest way of saying it, but seemed like the least verbose. It's meaning more that inbound is supposed to be push and sheriffs will have closed, people don't have to watch the tree etc, so people will just push to inbound and not read new temporary tree rules. (As it is, now that we've chosen approval required, this is less of an issue, than the originally propsed 'leave trees open and
# [12:19] <edmorley> happy for you to reword :-)
# [12:19] <mak> edmorley: I still don't get it, inbound with APPROVAL REQUIRED works like central
# [12:19] <mak> and it's less risky since we don't release it
# [12:20] <edmorley> yeah, but that wording was from a draft before we decided on approval required
# [12:20] <mak> I don't mind about the words, just trying to understand the decision
# [12:20] <mak> I would have done the opposite, inbound on APPROVAL REQUIRED and central CLOSED, merges pushed to central with the magic closed tree words
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# [12:21] <mak> btw, whatever works is fine
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# [12:22] <mak> and thanks for taking care of all the craziness!
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# [12:23] <edmorley> mak: I don't really mind either way, happy to change if people think it's better? main thing is to limit the number of trees we have to watch perhaps?
# [12:23] <mak> maybe there is a pro, people will learn again to watch their pushes :p
# [12:24] <mak> but judging at current stars, it doesn't happen
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# [12:33] <hsivonen> argh. why can't writing a patch to turn off the old View Source just go according to plan... crashes
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# [12:37] <NeilAway> hsivonen: lol
# [12:37] <NeilAway> (that was for M numbering, btw)
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# [12:40] <dRdR> is there anything special you have to do to get xpcshell blocklist pings to work? they're locking up for me and when I ctrl-c I get "Blocklist::onXMLLoad: there was an error during load"
# [12:41] <dRdR> (even with a stock blocklist already checked into mc
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# [12:53] <smaug> Is JS compiled with JS_THREADSAFE?
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# [13:12] <dRdR> ^^^ wrt my question it was a mistake in my syntax
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# [13:36] <glandium> link.exe is supposed to create both a dll and a lib file, right?
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# [13:40] <NeilAway> and an exp file too, I think
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# [13:42] <Callek> and a virtual addressspace limit exceed error
# [13:42] <Callek> ooo wait, :/
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# [13:47] <Callek> khuey: :-P I take it you mean for the link.exe comment
# [13:48] <khuey> yes
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# [13:55] <khuey> ugh
# [13:55] <khuey> why does this shit leak
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# [13:57] <NeilAway> !seen volkmar
# [13:57] <firebot> volkmar was last seen 8 weeks, 2 days, 20 hours, 48 minutes and 49 seconds ago, saying 'dolske: jush pushed, thanks for the heads up' in #developers.
# [13:57] <NeilAway> bah, picked the wrong nick
# [13:57] <NeilAway> mounir: ping
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# [14:00] <ttaubert> hey, can I merge m-c to fx-team and vice versa? this would merge only bug 705597 to m-c...
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# [14:02] <khuey> well you can do whatever you want to fx-team
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# [14:02] <khuey> as for landing 705597 on m-c, does it touch c++ code in libxul?
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# [14:02] <ttaubert> khuey: no :) that's why I ask
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# [14:04] <khuey> a=me
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# [14:04] <ttaubert> thx :) do I need to add CLOSED when merging to fx-team? do we have a 'real' hook there?
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# [14:05] <Callek> ttaubert: is fx-team closed?
# [14:05] <Callek> if not then no
# [14:06] <ttaubert> yeah, it's closed
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# [14:06] <khuey> you could just reopen it
# [14:06] <khuey> the controls on m-c are enough, IMO
# [14:07] <ttaubert> khuey: ok, there's a first time for everything :)
# [14:07] <Callek> khuey: only downside is that fx-team could "break" easy too, but at least we'll have a smaller set of stuff to backout, and one place, if *need* be
# [14:07] <mak> I doubt there may be any large cpp change on fx-team side, fwiw
# [14:08] <khuey> Callek: well, if they break libxul, they can start removing code from it
# [14:08] <khuey> win win in my book
# [14:08] <Callek> lolol
# [14:08] <Callek> khuey++
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# [14:09] <ttaubert> I'm not sure if that'd work out ;)
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# [14:10] * lurking suspects its either "work it out, or back it out" :)
# [14:10] <khuey> speaking of backing it out
# [14:10] <khuey> Callek: do you still have that patch to back out xbl?
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# [14:13] <Callek> khuey: I do, but its from back around M14, good luck un-bitrotting
# [14:13] * Callek jokes
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# [14:13] <Callek> also: eg-ad http://quotes.burntelectrons.org/5697 (I don't even have ANYTHING to do with jetpack, that archiving is going to suck)
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# [14:19] <ejpbruel> sicking: ping
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# [14:33] <mak> so, the mochitests failures on Android (1-2) look real, there's a Java_org_mozilla_gecko_GeckoAppShell_reportJavaCrash in the stack
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# [14:34] <mak> dougt:
# [14:34] <Callek> hsivonen: ping?
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# [14:36] <ejpbruel> can anyone tell me a bit about bug 701591 ?
# [14:36] <ejpbruel> specifically, if that behavior is the desired one?
# [14:36] <Callek> hsivonen: a spammer bumped a thread in m.d.a.tb on me that I missed (from april) "The serializers in the mozilla-central codebase can be configured to emit larger sets called OutputEncodeLatin1Entities, OutputEncodeHTMLEntities and OutputEncodeW3CEntities."
# [14:36] <Callek> hsivonen: did that discussion ever pan out, is the serializer already simplified, did you learn that you couldn't, etc.?
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# [14:39] <edmorley> Callek++
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# [14:39] <Callek> edmorley: a weird benefit of spammers :-)
# [14:40] <edmorley> (scrollback for which khuey smacked you... hehe)
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# [14:42] <Callek> edmorley: o heh, even better :-)
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# [14:43] <mfinkle> mak, looking at the m1 failures now
# [14:43] <mak> mfinkle: thanks
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# [14:53] <ejpbruel> you know, why dont we disable the default browser check for debug builds?
# [14:53] <ejpbruel> i constantly find myself accidentally clicking yes and making nightly my default
# [14:53] <kats> is m-c closed now? there are unstarred failures on the last push
# [14:55] <kats> if not, i'd like approval for a couple of patches (java-only, for fennec native UI)
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# [14:59] <mak> kats: indeed you can't push on unstarred failures. mfinkle is looking into them
# [15:00] <kats> ok, thanks
# [15:00] <mak> btw, at this point I think would be fine to push with a=java-only as well as we do with a=tests-only
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# [15:03] <mfinkle> no idea what dougt's patches would be doing to cause the crashes
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# [15:04] <mfinkle> haven't seen those types of crashes in android mochitests before either
# [15:04] <mfinkle> but I think we back him out
# [15:04] <mfinkle> and let dougt and Try server figure it out
# [15:04] <mak> sounds fine to me, you willing to do that, should I?
# [15:05] <mfinkle> I can give it a go
# [15:05] <mak> ok, thank you
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# [15:06] <mfinkle> mak, does a "backout" need a a= ?
# [15:07] <mak> yes, it would fail the hook
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# [15:07] <mak> a=bustage or a=orange may be fine, just to pass the check
# [15:09] <mfinkle> kats, I backed dougt out
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# [15:09] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/50a9ea86cd44 - Mark Finkle - Backout 03ed6af51318, c65be44ac489, 0ce8da61c6cc, bcc015450e7a because of mochitest failures r=mfinkle a=mfinkle
# [15:10] <mfinkle> kats, I guess we wait for a few minutes and then you could land your java-only/js-only patches?
# [15:10] <kats> mfinkle: sure
# [15:10] * ttaubert gets in line, too
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# [15:11] <mak> I also have a tests-only patch... ttaubert you may coalesce it with yours?
# [15:12] <kats> mfinkle: i just need a=java-only on the topmost patch then, right?
# [15:12] <mfinkle> kats, yeah
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# [15:12] <mfinkle> although, sometimes I go a= overboard on all my patches
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# [15:21] <kats> mfinkle: should i wait until the tests run on your backout?
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# [15:21] <mfinkle> kats, not sure, but it seems they are started and will finish ~28mins
# [15:22] <ted> hooray for being busted by our tools
# [15:22] <ted> sad times
# [15:22] <mfinkle> kats, since the tests are started, I'd say go ahead and land
# [15:22] <kats> mfinkle: ok, landing
# [15:23] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/73979783bac9 - Kartikaya Gupta - Bug 708683 - Improve JSON generation by using JSONStringer. r=pcwalton a=java-only
# [15:23] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/4850eb9ce32a - Kartikaya Gupta - Bug 708683 - Fix NaN viewport values. r=pcwalton
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# [15:28] <Yoric> What is the best way to check whether we are running under Unix from JavaScript code?
# [15:28] <Yoric> Atm, I am using #ifdef XP_UNIX, but that is just a little bit ugly.
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# [15:29] <Yoric> (I'm in chrome, btw)
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# [15:29] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/33984b277554 - Tim Taubert - merge fx-team to m-c
# [15:30] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/a3002672881e - Tim Taubert - merge m-c to fx-team
# [15:30] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/fd241426865c - Marco Bonardo - Bug 708693 - Intermittent TEST-UNEXPECTED-FAIL | xpcshell/tests/toolkit/components/places/tests/bookmarks/test_keywords.js.
# [15:30] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/9f98db90b6e1 - Tim Taubert - Bug 705597 - about:blank subframe entries in session restore make browser slow; r=dietrich
# [15:31] <glandium> Yoric: check the uriloader/exthandler xpcshell tests, I think they have something doing that
# [15:32] <Yoric> Thanks
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# [15:34] <Yoric> Can't find anything that seems related.
# [15:34] <glandium> bad memory then :(
# [15:35] <Yoric> Otoh, there seems to be something called "os.getPlatform" in some mozmill test.
# [15:35] <Yoric> Investigating.
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# [15:35] <Yoric> Based on xpcom :/
# [15:36] <past> are official firefox releases based on pgo builds or do we just use the latter for testing?
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# [15:37] <decoder> anyone available that can help me with the build system and nss?
# [15:37] <decoder> it seems that nss ignores CFLAGS for some parts
# [15:38] <ttaubert> Yoric: how about this? http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/4982e1298b23
# [15:38] <glandium> decoder: s/for some parts//
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# [15:38] <glandium> decoder: you need to hack security/manager/Makefile.in. again
# [15:39] <Yoric> ttaubert: yeah, same implementation as I found. Can't use it in a worker thread, unfortunately.
# [15:39] <ttaubert> oh ok :/
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# [15:39] <Yoric> Well, I'm just going to hide my #ifdef in a trivial module.
# [15:39] <Yoric> Thanks.
# [15:41] <decoder> glandium: i was hacking on Linux.mk, is that the wrong location?
# [15:41] <decoder> and why on earth would we want this to be ignored
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# [15:42] <glandium> decoder: depends what you are trying to change. If that's something that only matters for mozilla, security/coreconf is the wrong place
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# [15:42] <glandium> decoder: because nss is essentially non-mozilla
# [15:43] <decoder> glandium: I understand that nss must function without mozilla, but inside the mozilla build tree, shouldnt there be a way to override or add to what nss is using?
# [15:43] <glandium> decoder: security/manager/Makefile.in is that
# [15:43] <glandium> decoder: and as i told you, file a bug
# [15:43] <decoder> okay
# [15:43] <decoder> ah that also contains the WRAP_LDFLAGS
# [15:43] <decoder> you told me about
# [15:43] <decoder> maybe i can add a WRAP_CFLAGS too
# [15:44] <glandium> decoder: there is no WRAP_CFLAGS. WRAP_LDFLAGS is there for another reason
# [15:45] <decoder> glandium: i know there is no WRAP_CFLAGS, i meant maybe we can add it
# [15:45] <decoder> what reason is wrap_ldflags for?
# [15:45] <glandium> decoder: you can (ab)use ARCHFLAGS like there is on android
# [15:45] <glandium> decoder: for -Wl,--wrap flags
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# [15:46] <glandium> ARCHFLAG, without S
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# [15:47] <jlebar> glandium, fwiw, we probably want to pass cflags to nss, because we really need -Qunused when building with clang.
# [15:47] <decoder> i assume the CFLAGS in ARCHFLAG="$(CFLAGS) is not the CFLAGS defined in mozconfig then?
# [15:47] <jlebar> glandium, otherwise clang bitches about every unused -D directive...which is a lot.
# [15:48] <glandium> decoder: it is. we only pass cflags for android.
# [15:48] <decoder> glandium: it is also in the else branch
# [15:48] <decoder> thats why Im wondering
# [15:49] <glandium> decoder: that's android vs. gonk, not android vs !android
# [15:49] <glandium> decoder: both are under ifeq ($(OS_TARGET), Android)
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# [15:49] <decoder> ah.. hard to see
# [15:49] <decoder> thx
# [15:50] <edmorley> past: official are PGO
# [15:51] <edmorley> past: as are nightlies
# [15:51] <past> edmorley: ah, thanks
# [15:51] <edmorley> np :-)
# [15:52] <regen> weird. When was the ff pushed?
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# [15:55] <decoder> glandium: added something and trying it now, thanks
# [15:55] <decoder> glandium: btw, firefox with asan is starting already. I can surf
# [15:55] <decoder> fixed two memory bugs in firefox that occur on startup
# [15:55] <decoder> and blacklisted the scanning function in jsgc
# [15:56] <decoder> after that it's usable
# [15:56] <decoder> (with a decent speed)
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# [16:05] <gabor> anyone knows nsIMemoryMultiReporterCallback ?
# [16:06] <gabor> I want to use memory multi reporter in a test
# [16:06] <gabor> but I don't know how many times this callback will be called, nor can I predict if the current call is the last one or not... so I don't know how much do I have to wait before finishing the test
# [16:08] <ted> i would probably ask njn
# [16:08] <ted> but he doesn't appear to be on irc currently
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# [16:13] <Callek> mak: doing all your test code to PD http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/fd241426865c#l1.41
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# [16:13] <mak> Callek: I wrote that code, I can license it
# [16:13] <Callek> o of course, I'm not saying you were wrong
# [16:14] <Callek> :-)
# [16:14] <Callek> just curious if you're choosing to change future (original) works of tests to PD or what?
# [16:14] <mak> I use pd for tests, mostly because mpl is too verbose
# [16:14] <nigelb> I thought PD was the status for tests.
# [16:14] <nigelb> At least, that's what I was told.
# [16:14] <mak> you can use both
# [16:14] <ted> author's choice, certainly
# [16:14] <nigelb> Ah. meh. PD is shorter :)
# [16:14] <ted> yes, that is nice
# [16:14] <Callek> nigelb: generally even tests are tri with a few minor exeptions; but PD is perfectly fine
# [16:15] <ted> also makes it easier for test cases to be used cross-browser, like in w3c test suites
# [16:15] <mak> Callek: new tests or tests rewrites that have a single author will be pd, on my side
# [16:15] <Callek> (as in, any case where it was tri is fine to licence orig as PD)
# [16:15] <nigelb> This reminds me.
# [16:15] <nigelb> I need to write a test for a firefox patch and finish it :)
# [16:17] <Callek> mak: speaking of licencing though, I do still wish there was a (relatively simple way) I could grant Mozilla Foundation/Corp full irrevokable rights to my code, including to relicece etc. without abandoning my ability to use said code :-)
# [16:17] <Callek> O well, the legalities of that is complex, aiui
# [16:17] <mak> I don't know much of licensing issues, honestly
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# [16:26] <blassey> blass
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# [16:29] <jprmc> Callek: the license really reads that you sign away your copyright as well?
# [16:29] <Callek> jprmc: no it doesn't :-)
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# [16:30] <jprmc> then I'm not sure i follow your wish :-)
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# [16:30] <Callek> jprmc: I'm basically meaning I wish for a way to say, "Mozilla can do anything with this contribution, including change the licence without consulting me; but without me giving up the copyright/licensing choices for my own contributions outside of consulting mozilla"
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# [16:31] <jprmc> isn't that what you have with joint non-exclusive copyright?
# [16:31] <Callek> yes, but there is no process in place to grant that (and for mozilla to know I granted it)
# [16:32] <Callek> as well as no _easy_ way to designate that for all my contributions, with a way to expire that grant for newer code (incase I get a job that makes that grant a conflict of my new contract, etc.)
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# [16:32] <Callek> but either way, the convo about that is out of scope for #developers
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# [16:56] <Pike> ted: do we allow pushd and popd in make logic?
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# [16:58] <Ms2ger> Morning
# [16:58] <ted> Pike: probably, but each line of a make rule runs in a separate shell
# [16:58] <ted> so it's usually not necessary
# [16:58] <ted> if you do
# [16:58] <ted> foo:
# [16:58] <ted> cd xyz && dosomething
# [16:59] <ted> dosomethingelse
# [16:59] <ted> the second command won't be in xyz
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# [16:59] <Pike> ted: it's for INNER_UNMAKE_PACKAGE, so that should be fine
# [17:00] <ted> okay
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# [17:04] <jesup> Callek - email Mitchell and/or whomever is head of Legal, detailing what you want and why the current license isn't sufficient
# [17:04] <Callek> imo, not worth bugging them
# [17:04] <Callek> I briefly talked with gerv about it a few years ago
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# [17:05] <jesup> Are you certain (YANAL ;-) that the current license doesn't cover it?
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# [17:08] <Ms2ger> khuey|away, ... er, thanks, I guess
# [17:09] <ted> jesup: we don't do copyright assignment
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# [17:09] <ted> it was a massive project to relicense from NPL to MPL-tri
# [17:09] <ted> gerv can tell you about it
# [17:09] <jesup> k
# [17:09] <gerv> Ask me :-)
# [17:10] <ted> our current license does say we can use "any newer version of the MPL" or something like that
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# [17:10] <ted> but it doesn't give us the discretion to switch to a BSD-style license, I don't think
# [17:11] <ted> although i suppose we could rewrite the MPL to be BSD-style and still follow that
# [17:12] <jesup> "Any newer version" == "anything", more or less, which is why I find if very problematic in the GPL license
# [17:13] <ted> it's true
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# [17:13] <ted> "Announcing MPL v3, where we've simply copied the text of the WTFPL."
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# [17:14] <ted> jesup: then again if we required copyright assignment ala FSF, we'd have even more leeway
# [17:15] <jesup> ted: that's certainly true.
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# [17:17] <Callek> jesup: the MPL "upgrade" is what prompted me to consider it..... and the new community IT agreement draft is what brought it back to my mind :-)
# [17:17] * gerv is on the phone
# [17:18] <Callek> but yea, still no assignment but not a big deal so long as I don't die
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# [17:20] <Ms2ger> Yeah, don't do that
# [17:20] <ted> ha ha
# [17:20] <ted> well we'd just have to negotiate with your estate
# [17:20] <ted> you do have an estate, right?
# [17:21] <ted> i guess you could write it into your will
# [17:21] <Callek> though I think if I die I have bigger problems than who owns my code
# [17:21] <ted> "upon my death all my copyrights accrue to the mozilla foundation"
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# [17:21] <Callek> ted: "except for the one big one that earns my son 100 trillion $ a day"
# [17:21] <Callek> :-P
# [17:22] <Ms2ger> SeaMonkey?
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# [17:22] <Callek> of course
# [17:22] <Callek> 200k users ADU surely earlys 100 trillion a day
# [17:22] <Callek> :-P
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# [17:28] <jmaher> Yoric: ping
# [17:28] <Yoric> pong
# [17:28] <Yoric> Any success?
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# [17:29] <jmaher> Yoric: well I never installed the .mof file, which appears to be my problem
# [17:29] <jmaher> and I don't know where to find it
# [17:29] <Yoric> Did I forget to place it in the patch?
# [17:29] * Yoric checks.
# [17:29] <jmaher> I downloaded a recent build and I can't find it in the binary zip
# [17:29] <jmaher> oh, I didn't look in the patch
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# [17:30] <Yoric> No, it's in the client side of the patch.
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# [17:30] <jmaher> so that isn't distributed with firefox or any tests?
# [17:30] <Yoric> Sorry, I realize that my explanations were unclear.
# [17:30] <Yoric> No, I wrote that file for the sake of xperf probes.
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# [17:31] <Yoric> I have no idea how we should truly distribute it.
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# [17:31] <Yoric> I kind of was counting on you to have a better idea :)
# [17:31] <Waldo> ehsan|sheriff: how often do you update your clang/llvm trees, if you do at all?
# [17:31] <jmaher> ok, let me take that .mof from the patch and ensure it all works before offering random ideas :)
# [17:32] <ehsan|sheriff> Waldo: very very rarely. mostly either when I hit a bug in clang or if there's a new feature that I want to pick up
# [17:32] <ehsan|sheriff> but I haven't done that in the past couple of months at least
# [17:32] <Yoric> jmaher: :)
# [17:32] <Ms2ger> Oh look, a sheriff
# [17:32] <Yoric> jmaher: I'll be on pto next week, btw.
# [17:32] <jmaher> Yoric: ok, thanks for the heads up
# [17:33] <Waldo> ehsan|sheriff: okay; for right now, don't, I reported a bug to them that breaks ctypes :-)
# [17:33] <ehsan|sheriff> Waldo: oh, so recent clangs can't compile m-c right now?
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# [17:37] <Waldo> ehsan|sheriff: I doubt it
# [17:37] <Waldo> ehsan|sheriff: but this is not the valgrind thing that's already known
# [17:38] <Waldo> http://llvm.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=11540
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# [17:38] <Waldo> also, interestingly, we only hit it because we compile with -std=c++0x, or the gnu-ish variant
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# [17:39] <Waldo> I think they're trying to implement constexpr and that example happens to trigger something, or something
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# [17:39] <ehsan|sheriff> hmm
# [17:39] <ehsan|sheriff> espindola might be interested in this
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# [17:41] <edmorley> morning Ms2ger
# [17:41] <edmorley> (delayed response)
# [17:41] <espindola> Waldo: can you open a bug and assign it to me?
# [17:41] <Ms2ger> :)
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# [17:42] <espindola> include the mozconfig, mozilla rev and llvm/clang rev
# [17:42] <Waldo> espindola: http://llvm.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=11540
# [17:42] <espindola> thanks :-)
# [17:42] <Waldo> espindola: that's the reduced testcase for the file that fails to compile
# [17:43] <espindola> Waldo: I will take a look
# [17:43] <Waldo> cool
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# [17:48] <ehsan|sheriff> catlee: do we have 64-bit builders with msvc2005 right now?
# [17:48] <catlee> ehsan|sheriff: no
# [17:48] <catlee> 64-bit machines have 2008 and 2010
# [17:49] <ehsan|sheriff> :(
# [17:49] <catlee> nthomas posted in the bug some ideas for getting try to build 32-bit builds using the 64-bit machines
# [17:49] <ehsan|sheriff> catlee: which bug?
# [17:49] <catlee> I have some dim memories of armen trying ot install 2005 on the 64-bit machines and not succeeding
# [17:50] <catlee> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=709480#c4
# [17:50] <catlee> let's just write our own linker
# [17:50] <Waldo> :-)
# [17:50] <Waldo> with PGO support, of course!
# [17:50] <catlee> yeah!
# [17:50] <catlee> and able to use >1 core
# [17:51] <Ms2ger> pylink!
# [17:51] <catlee> I wonder if we have a 32-bit or 64-bit python on the 64-bit machines...
# [17:51] <ehsan|sheriff> well
# [17:51] <jcranmer> use llvm's linker?
# [17:51] <ehsan|sheriff> catlee: what you really mean is let's write our own compiler
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# [17:52] <ehsan|sheriff> cause the only thing that the linker doesn't do that the compiler does is parsing the source code ;)
# [17:52] <jcranmer> or maybe we should invest effort in getting clang to compile on Windows
# [17:52] <ehsan|sheriff> jcranmer: as I understand it, clang is far from being able to generate code on windows :(
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# [17:53] <jcranmer> ehsan|sheriff: I think it can generate code, it just can't parse windows.h :-)
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# [17:53] <catlee> mozwindows.h
# [17:53] <jcranmer> [or generate MSVC ABI]
# [17:54] <ehsan|sheriff> jcranmer: espindola told me that it can't...
# [17:54] <jcranmer> although I have seen a lot of discussion over getting the record building correct
# [17:54] <ted> generating ABI-compat code seems like the easiest part
# [17:54] <jcranmer> well, it's moot until it can actually parse windows code
# [17:54] <ted> vs. "get the optimizer to match MSVC's PGO optimizer in terms of speed"
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# [17:54] <ted> speed of generated code
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# [17:54] <Ms2ger> You can't! You're sheriffing!
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# [18:10] <ejpbruel> sicking: ping
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# [18:14] <margaret> so how strict are the approval rules right now? i want to land bug 707886 because it's blocking some mobile P1 bugs
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# [18:17] <Ms2ger> Ask ehsan|sheriff when he gets back from lunch
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# [18:17] <Ms2ger> Or find someone in Toronto to bug him :)
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# [18:19] <jdm> yep, 12pm is lunchtime usually
# [18:19] <margaret> yeah, they're probably all out at lunch. i can wait
# [18:20] <margaret> i'm just bummed i had to back out this patch on friday, and as soon as i fixed it the tree was closed
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# [18:36] <NeilAway> Ms2ger: why haven't you merged nsIScriptError[2] yet?
# [18:36] <Ms2ger> Because I wanted to leave something for you
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# [18:38] <Jesse> Ms2ger: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=458491#c10
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# [18:39] <Ms2ger> Jesse, dunno, I'm fine with closing it
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# [18:47] <espindola> jcranmer: I has bits of the ABI
# [18:47] <espindola> but I would be very surprised if enough to build firefox
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# [18:48] <jcranmer> so would I
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# [18:58] <kats> ehsan|sheriff: ping
# [18:59] <Ms2ger> kats, he's been at lunch for an hour
# [18:59] <kats> i thought he was back. the rest of his lunch party seems to be back :/
# [18:59] <jcranmer> 1:05 as of right now
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# [19:01] * @bz lightly mutters about moco email
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# [19:01] <jcranmer> I do NNTP, not IMAP
# [19:02] <@bz> jcranmer: not about the client end of it
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# [19:02] <@bz> jcranmer: worry not
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# [19:02] <@bz> oho!
# [19:02] <khuey> Ms2ger: hmm?
# [19:02] <@bz> my muttering worked!
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# [19:02] <jcranmer> that's why I have ... uh ... four email addresses?
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# [19:03] <jprmc> bz: just so i'm clear, is your proposal that we keep the tree closed until we do enough things like https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=709657 to get it opened again?
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# [19:03] <jprmc> (and https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=709721
# [19:03] <jprmc> )
# [19:03] <jprmc> i think we are waiting for khuey to wake up :-)
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# [19:04] <khuey> jprmc: hi
# [19:04] <jprmc> morning :-)
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# [19:04] <khuey> I'm reviewing 709721 now
# [19:04] <jprmc> cool
# [19:05] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/d07b605240b4 - Brad Lassey - bug 706574 - show native about:home in onCreate() r=dougt a=blassey, java only
# [19:05] <khuey> and then I'll see if I can figure out why the uconv one leaks :-/
# [19:05] <jprmc> khuey: my concern is how do we know if this is "enough"
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# [19:05] <khuey> trial and error :-/
# [19:05] <jprmc> yah
# [19:05] <khuey> so, we can sort of guess
# [19:05] <khuey> if we're willing to make some assumptions
# [19:05] <jprmc> thats kind of why i'm in favor of turning off PGO for now
# [19:05] * @bz restores the 5 mails he had in his inbox from between 10/20 and 12/9
# [19:05] <khuey> in particular, if we assume that the linker's memory usage is correlated to the final binary size
# [19:06] <khuey> then we can shrink the binary size below what's on, say, beta
# [19:06] <khuey> and feel relatively comfortable
# [19:06] <jprmc> ok
# [19:06] <@bz> jprmc: I'm not sure I actually made a proposal
# [19:06] <philor> wow, turn off pgo is on the table?
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# [19:06] <khuey> fwiw, I think keeping the tree closed to checkins that touch libxul is better than turning off PGO
# [19:06] <jprmc> bz: well, you countered mine so I'm trying to understand what i believe to be your defacto proposal
# [19:06] <@bz> tree is open to non-libxul stuff, right?
# [19:07] <jprmc> philor: temporarily
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# [19:07] <philikon> khuey: would it be ok for me to land something that's in libxul but not part of a normal firefox build (b2g in my case)?
# [19:07] <khuey> bz: right
# [19:07] <khuey> philikon: yeah I can live with that
# [19:07] <mbrubeck> I didn't realize the creator of "Firefox" died earlier this year: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Thomas_%28author%29
# [19:07] <khuey> if we're not adding code to libxul on windows we're ok
# [19:07] <philikon> khuey: so a=khuey for bug 708446?
# [19:08] <khuey> philikon: if that's gonk-only, a=me
# [19:08] <philikon> it is. thx
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# [19:09] <@bz> jprmc: my current proposal is to push forward with taking things out of libxul for a day or two and see where that gets us
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# [19:10] <Jesse> removing them from firefox? splitting them into other dlls? both?
# [19:10] <khuey> the middle
# [19:11] <Callek> great time to kill quirks mode dead!
# [19:11] <@bz> oh, interesting
# [19:11] <Ms2ger> Hmm
# [19:11] <Ms2ger> r=me :)
# [19:11] <@bz> for once, I won an alphabetical order lottery!
# [19:11] <Callek> [if we want to have lots of complaining users, of course]
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# [19:12] <@bz> Callek: not much code there
# [19:12] <@bz> Callek: since a large part of quirks mode is a single stylesheet
# [19:12] <Callek> yea I know, it just sounded better than harassing XBL again
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# [19:14] <jcranmer> getting firefox to build with --disable-rdf might get you somewhere
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# [19:14] <khuey> didn't we just remove --disable-rdf?
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# [19:14] <catlee> would removing dead code help?
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# [19:15] <Ms2ger> catlee, yes
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# [19:18] <bsmedberg> what stuff would we be splitting out?
# [19:18] <bsmedberg> Note that it's pretty unfeasible to split out anything that uses XPCOM
# [19:18] <bsmedberg> but it might be feasible to split out standalone libs
# [19:18] <jcranmer> I don't think there's enough dead code to reduce code size significantly
# [19:18] <bsmedberg> getting the DLL exports/imports right isn't especially easy in general, though
# [19:19] <jprmc> bsmedberg: right now its https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=709721 and https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=709657
# [19:20] <khuey> depends on what XPCOM thing it is
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# [19:24] <espindola> Waldo: I cannot reproduce http://llvm.org/pr11540
# [19:25] <Waldo> espindola: did you use -std=c++11?
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# [19:25] <espindola> Waldo: yes
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# [19:26] <Waldo> espindola: http://pastebin.mozilla.org/1402859 is what I'm testing
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# [19:28] <espindola> Waldo: building that rev
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# [19:28] <Waldo> with --enable-optimized --disable-assertions
# [19:29] <Waldo> although I've used other options in the past, but not this build around, I believe
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# [19:30] <espindola> Waldo: host compiler problems maybe?
# [19:30] <@bz> gah
# [19:30] <@bz> graphs-new has fake <select> elements. :(
# [19:30] <Ms2ger> \o/
# [19:30] <Ms2ger> Welcome to Web 2.0
# [19:30] <Waldo> espindola: ...conceivably? although I'm pretty sure I'm just using gcc4.6.1 as shipped in f15, so it's not an unstable release likelier to have issues
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# [19:31] <espindola> yes, that is the one I use at home...
# [19:31] <Waldo> espindola: it's conceivable rsmith ended up fixing this this morning, he's been touching constant expression stuff
# [19:31] <Waldo> although a bit too coincidental if so, perhaps :-)
# [19:32] * Waldo is on the cfe-dev and cfe-commits lists now, although he doesn't really read them
# [19:32] <espindola> Waldo: yes, that is why I am building the revision you posted
# [19:32] <Waldo> just filter to a folder, rarely mark most as read
# [19:32] <@bz> Ms2ger: it sucks. A lot
# [19:33] * @bz wonders whether he should file a bug on it...
# [19:33] * Waldo drops said info in the bug report
# [19:33] <Ms2ger> Mm
# [19:33] <Ms2ger> I've found that just breaking them works :)
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# [19:36] <gabor> bz: do you have a minute for Bug 678465? the patch is probably outdated, so I should resend it, just want to know if there is anything wrong with it or not before I do so
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# [19:37] <@bz> gabor: looking
# [19:37] <@bz> ok
# [19:37] <@bz> so where do I file bugs on graphs-new?
# [19:37] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/cf9b7ca68ef5 - Philipp von Weitershausen - Bug 708446 - Part 1: Implement nsIAudioManager to communicate with audio subsystem. r=mrbkap
# [19:38] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/5b8987dcd1ff - Philipp von Weitershausen - Bug 708446 - Part 2: Update audio system state when call state changes. r=mrbkap
# [19:38] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/34c34de2e964 - Philipp von Weitershausen - Bug 708446 - Part 3: Implement mute and speaker. r=mrbkap a=khuey
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# [19:38] <Ms2ger> bz, webtools::graph server
# [19:38] <@bz> Ms2ger: thanks
# [19:39] <@bz> gabor: lemme just do the review now
# [19:39] <espindola> Waldo: I can reproduce the problem with the old rev
# [19:40] <espindola> so yes, it was fixed.
# [19:40] <espindola> I will note it and close the bug
# [19:40] <Waldo> espindola: good times; probably the test should be added somewhere, to make sure it doesn't break again?
# [19:40] * Waldo updates his trees and rebuilds to be able to use clang again
# [19:41] <gabor> bz: sounds good, as far as I can remember you already accepted the code itself it's just the test...
# [19:41] <@bz> right
# [19:41] <@bz> I'm sorry for the lag on this... :(
# [19:41] <espindola> Waldo: maybe, we would probably take a patch
# [19:41] <Waldo> espindola: I'm pretty sure you people know your test infrastructure better than I do ;-)
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# [19:42] <Waldo> and where such a beast would go, and all
# [19:43] <gabor> bz: it's also my fault that I have not pinged you earlier on this one, just I was busy with some other tasks...
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# [19:43] <cpeterson> Bugzilla question: Is having a bug with a name in the "Assigned To" field, but the "Status" field is NEW (not ASSIGNED) a valid bug state? Why doesn't Bugzilla automatically set Status=ASSIGNED when the "Assigned To" is set (to someone other than "nobody")?
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# [19:44] <glob> cpeterson, generally NEW means the bug is in someone's work list, but they aren't working on it right now
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# [19:45] <cpeterson> glob: that makes sense. thx
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# [19:48] * khuey is leaking a member variable, but not the class itself
# [19:48] <khuey> that's fun
# [19:48] * khuey thinks something is broken here
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# [19:50] <@bz> gabor: comments in bug
# [19:50] <Callek> khuey: how is the member variable allocated, does anything else get a chance to hold a ref ptr, if XPCOM is there an already_addrefed<> mismatch or something?
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# [19:51] <khuey> Callek: it's a member TArray
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# [19:52] <Callek> icky
# [19:52] <Callek> I'll leave you to it then
# [19:53] <Waldo> khuey: non-virtual dtor?
# [19:53] <gabor> bz: thanks! I'll fix and update the patch tomorrow probably
# [19:54] <@bz> gabor: sounds good
# [19:54] <khuey> Waldo: no superclass
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# [19:54] <Waldo> khuey: you mean subclass?
# [19:54] * Waldo hates those names, fwiw
# [19:55] <khuey> Waldo: maybe
# [19:55] <khuey> ok, something is seriously fucked up
# [19:55] <khuey> bloatview tells me I'm leaking one nsTArray_base
# [19:55] * brendan_ is now known as brendan
# [19:55] <khuey> if I set XPCOM_MEM_LOG_CLASSES=nsTArray_base
# [19:55] <khuey> I get 20 or 30 serial numbers that supposedly leaked
# [19:55] <khuey> wtf
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# [19:57] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/70096993b6d6 - Mark Finkle - Bug 709103 - Optimize creating and saving thumbnail bitmaps r=blassey a=java-only
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# [19:59] <khuey> ok, if I don't use the xpcom leak logging I get something that makes far more sense
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# [20:01] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/e67d90275715 - Kartikaya Gupta - Bug 709805 - Avoid viewport changes on background tabs. r=pcwalton a=js-only
# [20:01] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/6992abaa6854 - Kartikaya Gupta - Bug 704738 - Resize page content on device rotation. r=Cwiiis a=java-only
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# [20:04] <khuey> oh nice, I'm leaking hte deadlock detector
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# [20:04] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/9989f0fed131 - Chris Lord - Bug 705092 - Kinetic scrolling is too slow. r=pcwalton a=java-only
# [20:05] <khuey> bsmedberg: ping
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# [20:05] <Mook_as> khuey: you're not using PRLock directly, are you?
# [20:06] * khuey has no idea
# [20:06] * Mook_as assumes any new code is using mozilla::Mutex and friends these days..
# [20:06] <khuey> I'm just trying to break some ancient code out of libxul
# [20:06] <Mook_as> which bits?
# [20:06] <khuey> intl/uconv
# [20:06] <khuey> 957 /* FIXME bug 491977: This is only going to operate on the
# [20:06] <khuey> 958 * BlockingResourceBase which is compiled into
# [20:06] <khuey> 959 * libxul/libxpcom_core.so. Anyone using external linkage will
# [20:06] <khuey> 960 * have their own copy of BlockingResourceBase statics which will
# [20:06] <khuey> 961 * not be freed by this method.
# [20:06] <khuey> bah
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# [20:06] <klugefoo> is there anything special I need to do in order to get the XPConnect sample to work?
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# [20:07] <khuey> ok, whatever, I can hack around this
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# [20:07] <Mook_as> yeah, I don't think uconv does any locking, so it's at least not whatever I was thinking of.
# [20:09] <khuey> oh, it sure does do locking
# [20:09] * mattwoodrow|away is now known as mattwoodrow
# [20:09] <khuey> I don't think anyone has looked in here in 10 years though
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# [20:10] <philor> they have, they've just all turned to stone
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# [20:13] <khuey> Mook_as: it's pretty awesome that you can't use mozilla::Mutex/etc outside of libxul without leaking in debug builds
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# [20:13] <khuey> huzzah
# [20:13] <khuey> leak's fixed
# [20:13] <Mook_as> khuey: hahaha haha
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# [20:14] <ehsan|sheriff> kats: pong
# [20:15] <kats> ehsan|sheriff: never mind
# [20:15] * ehsan|sheriff never minds :)
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# [20:16] <bsmedberg> khuey: pong
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# [20:17] <khuey> bsmedberg: deadlock detector leaks if you use it outside libxul :-/
# [20:17] <bsmedberg> that's totally a cjones problem ;-)
# [20:18] <bsmedberg> crap, trybuilds are gone
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# [20:21] <khuey> try is sooooooooooooo sllllloooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwww
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# [20:21] <catlee> pushing?
# [20:22] <ejpbruel> khuey: do you know where is the code for XUL <panel> elements?
# [20:22] <khuey> catlee: yes
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# [20:22] <khuey> ejpbruel: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/toolkit/content/widgets/popup.xml#217
# [20:22] <ejpbruel> khuey++
# [20:23] <bjacob> trying to build mobile/android with disable-jemalloc, i get:
# [20:23] <bjacob> /home/bjacob/mozilla-central/memory/mozalloc/mozalloc.cpp:266: undefined reference to `malloc_usable_size'
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# [20:24] <khuey> bjacob: that's all on njn
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# [20:24] <khuey> oh, I totally missed the project meeting didn't I :-/
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# [20:25] <khuey> glandium: want to review my libxul shrinking patch?
# [20:25] <khuey> ;-)
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# [20:26] <glandium> khuey: i can :)
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# [20:27] <khuey> it looks big but a lot of it is moving stuff around
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# [20:31] <igor> how exactly to ask for approval for m-c? Here?
# [20:31] <Ms2ger> Yep
# [20:31] <Ms2ger> js/src changes are fine
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# [20:32] <igor> Can I land bug 708382 - SpiderMonkey-only chnage ?
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# [20:32] <khuey> is ehsan|sheriff sheriffing?
# [20:32] <khuey> you could ask him
# [20:32] <Ms2ger> a=me
# [20:32] <khuey> yeah, those patches look fine
# [20:33] <igor> thanks
# [20:33] <froydnj> khuey: so that uconv patch...you deleted a lot of stuff, but I don't see where it got moved to?
# [20:34] <glandium> khuey: splinter doesn't like your patch :(
# [20:34] <khuey> froydnj: I forked a file, and deleted a bunch from both forks
# [20:34] <khuey> glandium: you should tell glob ;-)
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# [20:35] <froydnj> ah, maybe the patch is not showing something
# [20:35] <glob> glandium, url me :)
# [20:35] <khuey> bugzilla's diff view appears to be b0rked
# [20:35] <khuey> probably the same problem splinter is having
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# [20:35] <glandium> glob: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/page.cgi?id=splinter.html&bug=709657&attachment=580979
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# [20:36] <glandium> khuey: borked how ? it looks good here. at least at the beginning
# [20:36] <glob> glandium, anything in particular i should see.. it looks fine at a glance
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# [20:36] <glandium> glob: try the second makefile.in
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# [20:37] <glandium> and the second nsUConvModule.cpp
# [20:37] <khuey> glandium: the diff view doesn't show nsUConvDataModule.cpp at all
# [20:37] <bsmedberg> coop|mtg: you're buildduty? I'm getting Calling <function run_with_timeout at 0x011440B0> with args: (['python.exe', 'e:/builds/moz2_slave/try-w32/tools/buildfarm/utils/hgtool.py', '--clone-by-revision', '--mirror', 'http://hg.build.scl1.mozilla.com/try', 'http://hg.mozilla.org/try', 'build'], 3660, None, None, False, True), kwargs: {}, attempt #1
# [20:37] <bsmedberg> Executing: ['python.exe', 'e:/builds/moz2_slave/try-w32/tools/buildfarm/utils/hgtool.py', '--clone-by-revision', '--mirror', 'http://hg.build.scl1.mozilla.com/try', 'http://hg.mozilla.org/try', 'build']
# [20:37] <bsmedberg> Traceback (most recent call last):
# [20:37] <bsmedberg> File "e:/builds/moz2_slave/try-w32/tools/buildfarm/utils/hgtool.py", line 71, in <module>
# [20:37] <bsmedberg> import simplejson as json
# [20:37] <bsmedberg> ImportError: No module named simplejson
# [20:37] <bsmedberg> from a try push
# [20:38] <coop|mtg> w32-ix-slave03?
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# [20:38] <glob> glandium, the patch has the same file(s) twice
# [20:38] * coop|mtg is now known as coop|buildduty
# [20:38] <bsmedberg> coop|buildduty: yes
# [20:38] <coop|buildduty> k, let me fix
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# [20:40] <glob> i'm not sure that patch is valid
# [20:41] <khuey> sure it is
# [20:41] <khuey> hg diff gave it to me
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# [20:41] <glob> so how come a/intl/uconv/src/Makefile.in is there twice?
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# [20:42] <khuey> that's how 'hg cp file newfile' shows up in a diff
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# [20:43] <glob> urgh, that's retarded
# [20:43] <Ms2ger> ... a pear tree
# [20:43] <Ms2ger> ?
# [20:43] <khuey> lots of things about hg are ;-)
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# [20:43] <Ms2ger> Not as retarded as git :)
# [20:44] <khuey> indeed
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# [20:45] <glandium> glob: there's no better way to express that in a diff
# [20:45] * glob stands by his statement :P
# [20:45] * glob files a splinter bug too
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# [20:46] <glob> khuey, so you copied the file, and also modified the source file after it was copied?
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# [20:46] <Ms2ger> Yes
# [20:46] <khuey> yes
# [20:46] <khuey> this is how you "fork" a file
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# [20:47] <@bz> now, now
# [20:47] <@bz> this is a family channel
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# [20:47] <@bz> (well, maybe not, but we can try!)
# [20:47] <Ms2ger> Kids looking over your shoulder? :)
# [20:47] <@bz> nah
# [20:47] <@bz> they're not allowed in the office when I'm working
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# [20:48] <@bz> (also, they're not tall enough to look over my shoulder)
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# [20:48] <ehsan|sheriff> coop|buildduty: so I need a win64 builder which has vs2010 and vs2008 on it
# [20:48] <bent> "fork fork fork" reminds me of the swedish chef
# [20:48] <ehsan|sheriff> I'm filing the bug right now
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# [20:48] * Ms2ger is reminded of the Italian man who went to Malta
# [20:48] <glob> khuey, glandium: bug 709897
# [20:49] <coop|buildduty> ehsan|sheriff: ok
# [20:49] <khuey> glob: I see you found me debugging code
# [20:49] <khuey> er
# [20:49] <khuey> glandium: ^
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# [20:50] <ehsan|sheriff> coop|buildduty: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=709898
# [20:50] <ehsan|sheriff> thanks
# [20:50] <glandium> khuey: yeah :)
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# [20:51] <jrmuizel> ehsan|sheriff: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2484511/can-i-use-visual-studio-2010s-c-compiler-with-visual-studio-2008s-c-runtim
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# [20:52] <jesup> ted: ping
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# [20:53] <ted> jesup: pong
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# [20:54] * khuey is scared by where that stack overflow link leads
# [20:54] <ted> heh
# [20:55] <ted> the solution there isn't actually terrible
# [20:55] <ted> but it makes you lose the enhanced security of those methods
# [20:55] <ted> which is ok on Win2k/XPRTM, but not great on newer platforms
# [20:55] <ted> i mean, it's no worse than what we have now, truly
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# [20:55] <jesup> ted: FYI, because of the Windows PGO issues, glandium is planning to split out the media libraries from libxul (bug 709721). This will break the current hack for libvpx used in webrtc (or would if windows was currently building). My understanding is they'll remain part of libxul on linux/mac
# [20:55] <khuey> it's probably less scary that what we do to jemalloc
# [20:55] <lduros> hello, I'm trying to understand why everytime my addon attempts to rewrite the cache, it seems to do it correctly, but then in the browser the cached version is a blank page with nothing in, same when looking at the source with ctrl-u: http://pastebin.mozilla.org/1402934
# [20:56] <lduros> I asked this question on#extdev and was told to ask it herre
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# [20:57] <ted> jesup: fun :-/
# [20:57] <ted> but ok
# [20:57] * ted wishes we didn't have to jump through so many hoops to appease our compiler
# [20:57] <jesup> ted: just wanted you to have a heads-up
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# [20:57] <ted> thanks
# [20:57] <ted> appreciate it
# [20:58] <ted> when i get back from underwater today i'm going to get back on webrtc stuff
# [20:58] <ted> i think gyp->makefile.in is what i'm going to do
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# [20:58] <jesup> ted: aha. ok.
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# [21:00] <jesup> We could move webrtc as a whole as well (keeping it with libvpx). But I'm not sure there's much advantage in that, unless we'll need to do it anyways because of Windows PGO when we land... (khuey?)
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# [21:00] * khuey repeats the questions he asked last night
# [21:00] <khuey> how big is it?
# [21:00] <khuey> and how soon do you want to land it?
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# [21:02] <glandium> khuey: webrtc is *massive*
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# [21:03] <khuey> :-P
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# [21:03] <khuey> well then I guess we know the answer
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# [21:03] <jesup> khuey: glandium is right; it's big. (Though du way overstates the size)
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# [21:03] <khuey> how many MB of code is it when it's compiled?
# [21:04] <jesup> khuey: so maybe we move the entire thing - windows or all?
# [21:04] <glandium> seriously, there's no reason stuff like webrtc aren't components. It's not like we need them all the time
# [21:04] <gavin> khuey: why did your newsgroup post say "browser code that's not in libxul"
# [21:04] <gavin> khuey: isn't all browser code in libxul?
# [21:04] <ehsan|sheriff> khuey: see my recent post on dev.platform please
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# [21:04] <ehsan|sheriff> gavin: I think they go in browsecomps.dll
# [21:04] <khuey> right
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# [21:04] <jesup> khuey: guess (once I finish stripping stuff we don't need) 1.5MB. Could be 1-2MB, but I doubt the high end.
# [21:05] <khuey> ouch
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# [21:05] <mfinkle> ehsan|sheriff, I have a patch coming up to fix the bustage in android opt m3
# [21:05] <khuey> yeah, we're going to want that separate
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# [21:05] <jesup> khuey: not surprised
# [21:05] <ehsan|sheriff> mfinkle: good, you're good to land
# [21:05] <khuey> ehsan|sheriff: we don't have any clue how much time that buys us though ...
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# [21:05] <khuey> ehsan|sheriff: for all we know MSVC 2010 uses 5 KB less memory
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# [21:06] <glandium> khuey: 5KB ?
# [21:06] <gavin> wtf I thought we'd killed browsercomps
# [21:06] <ehsan|sheriff> khuey: we don't know how much time ripping out stuff buys us either
# [21:06] <khuey> glandium: I'm being hyperbolic ;-)
# [21:06] <ehsan|sheriff> khuey: ultimately this is a losing battle
# [21:06] <khuey> gavin: still there
# [21:06] <ehsan|sheriff> khuey: maybe your suggestion and mine can be implemented in parallel?
# [21:06] <catlee> until we have a 64-bit linker, yes
# [21:06] <ted> gavin: we tried
# [21:07] <ted> then something got backed out or something
# [21:07] <khuey> ehsan|sheriff: your solution scares me more than my solution :-)
# [21:07] <khuey> (but yes, in theory, nothing stops us from doing both)
# [21:07] <ehsan|sheriff> khuey: because of the compiler switch right?
# [21:07] <khuey> well mixing and matching CRT/compiler versions scares me too
# [21:07] <khuey> the compiler change itself actually doesn't scare me that much
# [21:07] <ehsan|sheriff> khuey: I'm not going to mix and match anything
# [21:08] <catlee> what's your idea?
# [21:08] <ehsan|sheriff> khuey: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2484511/can-i-use-visual-studio-2010s-c-compiler-with-visual-studio-2008s-c-runtim
# [21:08] <ehsan|sheriff> catlee: ^
# [21:08] <khuey> ehsan|sheriff: isn't your plan to use the 2010 compiler with an older CRT?
# [21:08] <ehsan|sheriff> nope
# [21:08] <ehsan|sheriff> I would never do _that_ ;)
# [21:08] <khuey> what are we planning to do then?
# [21:08] <khuey> catlee: I don't believe that there's ever going to be a 64 bit linker
# [21:08] <ted> i think the only actual solutions here are a) "get microsoft to release a 64-bit -> 32-bit cross-compiler, switch to that and do builds on win64", or b) "drop support for win32 builds"
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# [21:09] <jesup> khuey: (sorry for the dual-thread of conversations) - should be separate it out for all, or just Windows? All might be easier (though right now it wants to link with libvpx, so splitting on Linux/Mac means extra work - not a big deal I believe)
# [21:09] <khuey> jesup: all would be better, imo
# [21:09] <khuey> cross platform consistency is a virtue
# [21:09] <jesup> yes
# [21:09] <ehsan|sheriff> khuey: implement Encode/DecodePointer ourselves in platforms which don't support it
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# [21:10] <glandium> khuey: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=563318#c21
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# [21:10] <khuey> ehsan|sheriff: mmm
# [21:10] <khuey> that's less scary
# [21:10] <ehsan|sheriff> yes
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# [21:10] <ehsan|sheriff> I think that your solution scares me more
# [21:10] <ehsan|sheriff> but I'm biased
# [21:11] <glandium> ehsan|sheriff: I'm afraid this requires rebuilding the crt, though.
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# [21:11] <ehsan|sheriff> glandium: I should see, I don't wanna rebuild the crt if possible...
# [21:11] <khuey> we can't rebuild the CRT
# [21:12] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/2662a7249e7d - Mark Finkle - Bug 709103 - Optimize creating and saving thumbnail bitmaps (OOM fix) r=kats a=java-only
# [21:12] <glandium> ehsan|sheriff: the problem is that the crt is the one using these functions, and since the crt is (obviously) not linked against our libs, it's not going to get the symbols from there
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# [21:15] <ehsan|sheriff> glandium: so that article is talking about the case where you statically link against the crt
# [21:15] <ehsan|sheriff> which we don't do
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# [21:16] <ehsan|sheriff> khuey: just to check, jemalloc doesn't require us rebuild the crt these days, right?
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# [21:17] <khuey> ehsan|sheriff: correct
# [21:17] <khuey> because on 2010 you can't rebuild the CRT
# [21:17] <ehsan|sheriff> khuey: were we planning on redistributing the vs2010 crt dlls?
# [21:17] <khuey> yes
# [21:17] <ehsan|sheriff> ok
# [21:17] * mcote|bbiab is now known as mcote
# [21:17] <khuey> we're redistributing the CRT dlls now
# [21:17] <khuey> (the 2005 ones, of course)
# [21:17] <ehsan|sheriff> ok
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# [21:21] <bsmedberg> coop|buildduty: is is safe to re-push that try build which failed earlier?
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# [21:21] <coop|buildduty> yes, i've re-disabled that slave
# [21:21] <coop|buildduty> bsmedberg: ^^
# [21:21] <bsmedberg> thanks
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# [21:23] <Jesse> the first link on http://www.indieroyale.com/ put a file called wip-blackwell-trilogy-trailer-please-don39t-share-not-for-distribution.mp4 in my downloads folder O_o
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# [21:24] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/753ed712f1be - Matt Brubeck - Bug 701804 - PageActions must be initialized before registering actions [r=mfinkle, a=javascript]
# [21:24] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/ee96343f8e13 - Matt Brubeck - Bug 709485 - Fix browser sizing after toggling the sidebar in tablet mode [r=mfinkle, a=javascript]
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# [21:26] <edmorley> anyone else having irc connection issues?
# [21:27] <lurking_work> I'm good
# [21:28] <Waldo> I'm good too
# [21:28] <BenWa> Does GC in web workers block the main thread?
# [21:28] <khuey> it shouldn't
# [21:29] <Waldo> they're using separate runtimes now, so there shouldn't be a dependence
# [21:29] <BenWa> khuey: Its important to my proposal. Who can I ask for sure?
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# [21:30] <taras> dolske: does https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=58724 fall under your domain?
# [21:30] <khuey> BenWa: bent?
# [21:30] <BenWa> bent: Does GC in web workers block the main thread?
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# [21:33] <ehsan|sheriff> so can we ship code released under GPL?
# [21:33] <ehsan|sheriff> gerv: ^
# [21:33] <gerv> ehsan|sheriff: Not in Firefox, no.
# [21:33] <Waldo> BenWa: there's no dependence
# [21:33] <gerv> Why do you ask?
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# [21:34] <ehsan|sheriff> gerv: this project has code which we can use to get vs2010 working on xp sp1 and below: http://code.google.com/p/mulder/
# [21:35] <mwu> there's special exceptions for os code
# [21:35] <gerv> If you file a bug, I can get in touch with him and ask him for different terms.
# [21:35] <dolske> taras: yes
# [21:35] <Waldo> they're publishing GPL'd code for Windows developers? that seems to make no sense, considering their audience
# [21:35] <ehsan|sheriff> gerv: should they agree to relicense their code before we can land it?
# [21:35] <gerv> mwu: I suspect you are confused; if you elaborate on that statement, I can explain why :-)
# [21:35] <gerv> ehsan|sheriff: Yes.
# [21:35] <ehsan|sheriff> that's too late
# [21:35] <ehsan|sheriff> well
# [21:35] <Waldo> oh, he's just targeting media-ish people
# [21:35] <Waldo> not Windows writ large
# [21:35] <Waldo> that's more sensible
# [21:35] <mwu> gerv: code that is considered part of the os
# [21:35] <ehsan|sheriff> I guess I could implement a better version myself
# [21:35] <Waldo> ish
# [21:36] <gerv> mwu: I understand the phrase "os code", thank you.
# [21:36] <gerv> ehsan|sheriff: if it's landed, it needs to unland.
# [21:36] <gerv> Sorry :-|
# [21:36] * Waldo snickers at http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/4818/shotavidemuxnew.png
# [21:36] <ehsan|sheriff> gerv: it's not :)
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# [21:36] <mwu> gerv: I got an exception from legal for our android linker code, under apache 2
# [21:36] <espindola> is https://bug709328.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=580556 OK?
# [21:36] <espindola> with a=js-only?
# [21:36] <ehsan|sheriff> espindola: yes
# [21:36] <gerv> mwu: Apache 2 != GPL.
# [21:36] <espindola> thanks
# [21:37] <mwu> yeah, but normally I don't think we allow apache 2 at all
# [21:37] <gerv> mwu: when MPL 2 ships (this week, hopefully), we will.
# [21:37] <mwu> I heard there was a similar reasoning for allowing the crt thing
# [21:37] <mwu> to use jemalloc
# [21:37] <BenWa> Waldo: Thanks
# [21:38] <gerv> mwu: using GPLed code in a non-GPLed app is copyright infringement.
# [21:38] <gerv> simple as that.
# [21:38] <gerv> The jemalloc thing was: "can we stomach this proprietary licence"?
# [21:38] <gerv> It was a question of policy, not legality.
# [21:38] <taras> dolske: can you put this on someone's todo list?
# [21:38] <gerv> I suggest not listening to the rumour mill about the motivation for our legal decisions, but asking instead :-)
# [21:38] * mwu is not interested in discussing licenses
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# [21:39] <gerv> Well, OK, it's your right not to want to know, but then it might be good not to assume things about them :-)
# [21:39] <dolske> taras: I can add it to the pile. :)
# [21:39] <lduros> Will MPL 2 be compatible with GPL?
# [21:40] <gerv> lduros: depends what you mean by "compatible".
# [21:40] <mwu> just mentioning what I've heard. I always go to legal if I need to actually do something
# [21:40] <gerv> ehsan|sheriff: If you want me to contact that guy, file a bug and I'll do it :-)
# [21:40] <dolske> zpao|m was actually thinking about looking into that (though in a different context)
# [21:40] <lduros> gerv: currently code released under the MPL is usually also released under the GPL 2 right? At least it was true for al ot of mozilla code
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# [21:41] <lduros> gerv: I assume this was done because MPL was not compatible with GPL
# [21:41] <gerv> lduros: Mozilla releases its code under a choice of 3 licenses - MPL, LGPL or/and GPL.
# [21:41] <gerv> lduros: Yes.
# [21:41] <gerv> In that sense, the answer is yes.
# [21:41] <Ms2ger> But not all of its code :)
# [21:41] <gerv> MPL2 is compatible with GPL,
# [21:41] <ehsan|sheriff> gerv: no, I guess I can work around that
# [21:41] <gerv> via an explicitly-written compatibility clause.
# [21:41] <ehsan|sheriff> gerv: but thanks for offering to help
# [21:41] <gerv> Read the licence and see how :-)
# [21:41] <lduros> gerv: ok
# [21:41] <lduros> yeh reading now :-)
# [21:41] <ehsan|sheriff> gerv: when are we gonna switch to mpl2 btw? :)
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# [21:41] <lduros> 1.12
# [21:42] <Ms2ger> This would be an excellent time, with no code changes landing :)
# [21:42] <gerv> ehsan|sheriff: Some time after it's released, and I write the necessary scripts :-)
# [21:42] <bent> so are we basically to the point that we can't add anything for the next release?
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# [21:42] <Ms2ger> Yes
# [21:43] <gerv> Ms2ger: Sorry, it's not shipped, and I haven't done the script.
# [21:43] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/604ce2fde8ca - Rafael Ávila de Espíndola - Bug 709328 - Remove always true argument. r=mak77. a=js-only.
# [21:43] <lduros> gerv: it used to say on much code: GPL version 2 or later
# [21:43] <Ms2ger> gerv, aww :)
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# [21:43] <lduros> gerv: in clause 1.12 it doesn't mention "later". Does it mean GPLv3 is not compatible/
# [21:43] <gerv> No.
# [21:43] <gerv> As in,
# [21:43] <gerv> no, it doesn't mean that.
# [21:43] <mwu> gerv: also, I only mentioned that there are exceptions, not that there are exceptions for gpl
# [21:43] <lduros> ah ok
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# [21:44] <gerv> mwu: one can make exceptions to a policy; one can't make exceptions to following the law.
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# [21:44] <mwu> was only trying to say it's worth asking legal
# [21:44] <mwu> really, I don't think I'm trying to spread any misinformation
# [21:44] <bent> Ms2ger, do we think that that will change?
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# [21:45] <Ms2ger> I wouldn't count on it
# [21:45] <Ms2ger> I also wouldn't land new big stuff in the last week before the branch anyway :)
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# [21:46] <bent> "big" is relative
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# [21:51] <jprmc> nthomas: you confirmed that VS2005 cannot be installed on the 64bit builders, correct?
# [21:52] <nthomas> no sir
# [21:52] <jhammel> bent: twss?
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# [21:52] <nthomas> I expressed a lack of knowledge about it, and a vague uncertainty based on VS2005 being so old
# [21:52] <catlee> jprmc: I believe at one point we were trying to build 64-bit windows with 2005
# [21:52] <jmaher> dbaron: thanks for the reviews of my patches, I appreciate it
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# [21:53] <ehsan|sheriff> gerv: what about lgpl? can we ship lgpl code?
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# [21:53] <catlee> jprmc: armen might know more
# [21:54] <jprmc> armenzg: ^^
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# [21:57] <glandium> jprmc: fwiw, i use vs2005 on my 64-bits win-7
# [21:57] <glandium> and it works well
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# [21:58] <jprmc> interesting
# [21:58] <jprmc> glandium: very good to know
# [21:58] <ehsan|sheriff> I think our builders are windows 2003
# [21:58] <armenzg> VS2005 is not installed on those machines
# [21:58] <armenzg> we were trying to move forward and we only were able to move it to VS2008
# [21:58] <glandium> ehsan|sheriff: which should be less problems. I get a warning on win7 that it's known to have problems. Which i haven't had
# [21:58] <armenzg> we did not manage to get to VS2010 because jemalloc
# [21:59] <armenzg> I think
# [21:59] <ehsan|sheriff> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/4c26cc39%28v=vs.80%29.aspx
# [21:59] <ehsan|sheriff> For a 64-bit computer, the requirements are as follows:
# [21:59] <ehsan|sheriff> Windows Server 2003 Service Pack 1 x64 editions
# [21:59] <ehsan|sheriff> Windows XP Professional x64 Edition
# [22:00] <glandium> armenzg: the jemalloc issue is fixed. the remaining problem is either deciding if we want to drop pre xpsp2 support, or find a way not to have to drop that support
# [22:00] <Steffen> ehsan|sheriff: I'd like to land bug 709514 and bug 701987 (js only), is that ok?
# [22:00] <ehsan|sheriff> Steffen: if they
# [22:00] <ehsan|sheriff> 're js only, yes
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# [22:01] <Steffen> ehsan|sheriff: and xul, and dtd, if that matters
# [22:01] <ehsan|sheriff> coop|buildduty: thanks!
# [22:01] <ehsan|sheriff> Steffen: it's fine, you can go ahead
# [22:01] <Steffen> ok
# [22:02] <coop|buildduty> ehsan|sheriff: np. good luck
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# [22:03] <firebot> Check-in:
# [22:03] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/6057abf8f4e6 - Steffen Wilberg - Bug 701987: Remove checkbox for add-on auto-checking for updates (extensions.update.enabled) from the options window, and make enabling extensions.update.autoUpdateDefault in the
# [22:03] <firebot> add-ons manager also enable extensions.update.enabled. ui-review=boriss, r=mossop, a=xul/js-only
# [22:04] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/4817de2a84eb - Steffen Wilberg - Bug 709514: Hide about:blocked, about:certerror, about:empty, about:fennec, and about:firefox from Fennec Native's about:about. r=mfinkle, a=js-only
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# [22:07] <ehsan|sheriff> coop|buildduty: do you know about vs2010?
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# [22:09] <coop|buildduty> ehsan|sheriff: rail has been doing the work there
# [22:09] <catlee-mtg> know what about it?
# [22:09] <catlee-mtg> it's deployed and ready to go
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# [22:10] <ehsan|sheriff> catlee-mtg: so, if we were to switch to vs2010 today, could we do that?
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# [22:10] <khuey> technically, yes
# [22:10] <khuey> we could flip the mozconfig switch and be done
# [22:10] <catlee-mtg> ehsan|sheriff: 302 khuey
# [22:10] <khuey> heh
# [22:11] <khuey> that's been happening a lot in the last 24 hours :-P
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# [22:11] <ehsan|sheriff> khuey: so I see a 64-bit link.exe in vs2010
# [22:11] <catlee-mtg> hmm
# [22:11] <catlee-mtg> make that 301
# [22:11] <ehsan|sheriff> can someone explain that to me?
# [22:11] <jhammel> catlee-mtg: lol, that will save you some time ;)
# [22:11] <khuey> ehsan|sheriff: it's the 64 bit linker
# [22:11] <khuey> what part do you want explained?
# [22:11] <ehsan|sheriff> khuey: can that create 32-bit apps?
# [22:11] <nthomas|mtg> aka the linker for 64bit binaries ?
# [22:12] <khuey> ehsan|sheriff: no
# [22:12] <ehsan|sheriff> ah shit
# [22:12] <ehsan|sheriff> ok
# [22:12] <ehsan|sheriff> :)
# [22:12] <khuey> this is the mythical "x64->x86 cross compiler" that we want
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# [22:13] <catlee-mtg> too bad it's not that easy
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# [22:13] <khuey> indede
# [22:13] <ehsan|sheriff> np
# [22:13] <bsmedberg> whew, back to review-0
# [22:14] <bsmedberg> weekends suck!
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# [22:14] <catlee-mtg> wonder what the 64-bit linker would do with 32-bit objects...
# [22:15] <ejpbruel> whats a good tutorial if i want to learn more about XUL?
# [22:15] <ejpbruel> or, more specifically, XBL
# [22:16] * azakai_ is now known as azakai
# [22:17] <ejpbruel> im looking at popup.xml to figure out how popup windows implement scrolling but i cant make heads or tails from this
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# [22:24] <jlebar> bsmedberg, thanks for the review! :)
# [22:24] <jlebar> (s)
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# [22:25] <jlebar> ehsan|sheriff, I can push non-c/c++ code to m-i?
# [22:25] <ehsan|sheriff> jlebar: yep
# [22:25] <jlebar> awesome.
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# [22:26] <Ms2ger> To m-i?
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# [22:26] <Waldo> can I push my patch to add a perl file to the build system to m-c?
# [22:26] <Waldo> :-P
# [22:26] <jlebar> Ms2ger, no?
# [22:26] <Ms2ger> m-i is closed still
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# [22:26] * Ms2ger whacks ehsan|sheriff
# [22:26] <khuey> r-
# [22:27] <khuey> no perl
# [22:27] <jlebar> ehsan|sheriff, m-c, then?
# [22:27] <ehsan|sheriff> no m-i for you guyes
# [22:27] <ehsan|sheriff> yes
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# [22:27] <ehsan|sheriff> and yes, you should watch the tree as well :P
# [22:27] <jlebar> Waldo, patches adding perl can only land on closed trees, sorry.
# [22:28] <Waldo> haha
# [22:28] <Waldo> jlebar++
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# [22:28] <Waldo> notwithstanding the futility of karma-changes now :-\
# [22:28] <khuey> is that ever getting fixed?
# [22:28] <khuey> or did we give up on karma?
# [22:28] <Ms2ger> We gave it all to edmorley
# [22:28] <jlebar> Ms2ger+..er...
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# [22:28] * jlebar pats Ms2ger
# [22:29] * Ms2ger pats jlebar back condescendingly
# [22:29] <Waldo> *botsnack*
# [22:29] <Waldo> *sheriffsnack*
# [22:29] <@bz> ehsan++
# [22:29] <Waldo> *hackersnack*
# [22:29] <@bz> ehsan++ ten times over
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# [22:29] <ehsan|sheriff> for why?!
# [22:30] <@bz> "I have an idea which might enable us to use VS2010 to build binaries that
# [22:30] <@bz> will run with Win2k, XP and XP SP1."
# [22:30] <@bz> for that
# [22:30] <blizzard> wut
# [22:30] <@bz> even for just trying to, and _definitely_ if it works
# [22:30] <blizzard> ehsan is a god among men
# [22:30] <Ms2ger> Always been
# [22:31] <ehsan|sheriff> bz: well, it's not going as well as I thought it would be :/
# [22:31] <@bz> ehsan|sheriff: these things never do
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# [22:32] <jlebar> whoa, hg qimport --rev tip just crashed.
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# [22:32] <jfkthame> ehsan|sheriff: did you get an answer to your question re shipping lgpl code (above)? afaik, it's "no"
# [22:32] <ehsan|sheriff> jfkthame: no I didn't get an answer
# [22:33] <@bz> "According to glandium, we should probably put all this sliced out stuff into
# [22:33] <@bz> one library."
# [22:33] <ehsan|sheriff> so here's another question
# [22:33] * @bz suggests libnotxul as the name
# [22:33] <ehsan|sheriff> which is way more interesting
# [22:33] <jprmc> bz: or libexternaltoxul
# [22:33] <Ms2ger> whateverwedontcareabout.dll
# [22:33] <ehsan|sheriff> can we redistribute a modified version of the vs2010 crt with firefox?
# [22:33] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/a05ecb395410 - Justin Lebar - Bug 696535 - Use absolute paths in pythonpath.py. r=bsmedberg a=test-only
# [22:33] <jprmc> we are basically cutting out 3rd party libs right?
# [22:33] <bsmedberg> xul2.dll
# [22:33] <bent> libdana?
# [22:33] <Waldo> bz: nice bikeshed you got there
# [22:33] <Ms2ger> Or WHATE~1.DLL
# [22:33] <jprmc> +1
# [22:33] * @bz considered libxul2
# [22:33] <jprmc> Ms2ger wins
# [22:34] <@bz> but I think libnotxul sums it up better
# [22:34] <khuey> ehsan|sheriff: how are you going to modify it?
# [22:34] <@bz> jprmc: too long! ;)
# [22:34] <Ms2ger> libhtml
# [22:34] <khuey> it doesn't come with makefiles to build it last I checked
# [22:34] <ehsan|sheriff> khuey: I don't know, a hex editor? ;)
# [22:34] <@bz> waldo: thanks
# [22:34] <@bz> ms2ger: that'd be a lie
# [22:34] * bsmedberg wants to avoid cutesy things which might confuse semi-literate people trawling release directories
# [22:34] <khuey> r-
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# [22:34] <jfkthame> ehsan|sheriff: on that, it presumably depends on the terms of the MS license - do we have details of that somewhere handy?
# [22:34] <ehsan|sheriff> khuey: but seriously, is there a legal way for us to ship a modified version of the crt?
# [22:35] <ehsan|sheriff> we used to do that before, right?
# [22:35] <khuey> ehsan|sheriff: we've been doing that for the last several years
# [22:35] <ehsan|sheriff> jfkthame: not that I know of
# [22:35] <ehsan|sheriff> khuey: so that's acceptable?
# [22:35] <@bz> hmm
# [22:35] <khuey> yes
# [22:35] <ehsan|sheriff> khuey: good
# [22:35] <khuey> if you can modify it ..
# [22:36] * @bz wonders whether a binary patch to the crt could count as "source" for our licensing purposes...
# [22:36] <ehsan|sheriff> khuey: what makes you think I can't? :P
# [22:36] <khuey> bz: have you seen the patch we had before
# [22:36] <@bz> khuey: nope
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# [22:36] <@bz> khuey: was that basically what it was?
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# [22:37] <khuey> bz: http://hg.mozilla.org/releases/mozilla-2.0/file/5216dd412535/memory/jemalloc/crtvc8sp1-intel.diff
# [22:37] * @bz mutters about diff : patch :: bsdiff : ?
# [22:37] <khuey> no, it wasn't binary
# [22:38] <ehsan|sheriff> does anybody have either win2k, winxp without any sp, or winxpsp1 around?
# [22:38] <ehsan|sheriff> bbondy: ^
# [22:38] <@bz> khuey: ew, diff without -u
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# [22:38] <nthomas|mtg> is the crt source still available in our compiler install ? I have a memory it isn't any more
# [22:38] <@bz> khuey: how come?
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# [22:38] <khuey> bz: we can't redistribute their source code in the diff ;-)
# [22:38] <bbondy> ehsan|sheriff: I no longer have win2k but I have winxp x86 and winxp x64, not sure what SP but I will check now
# [22:38] <@bz> khuey: mmm
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# [22:38] <@bz> khuey: that's awesome
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# [22:39] <bbondy> ehsan|sheriff: I *can* get win2k if you need it
# [22:39] <khuey> bz: indeed
# [22:39] <ehsan|sheriff> bbondy: can you check to make sure that the kernel32.dll in your windows does _not_ have EncodePointer/DecodePointer?
# [22:39] <Ms2ger> philor++
# [22:39] <khuey> flapping his arms?
# [22:39] <ehsan|sheriff> bbondy: I just need a kernel32.dll like that!
# [22:39] <Ms2ger> Indeed
# [22:39] <bbondy> let me check which version first
# [22:40] <bbondy> ehsan|sheriff: I haven't applied any updates but the download I used included SP2
# [22:40] <bbondy> from msdn
# [22:40] <khuey> sp2 is too new
# [22:41] <bbondy> I'll install win2k
# [22:41] <bbondy> I should have it installed anyway
# [22:41] <ehsan|sheriff> bbondy: thanks
# [22:42] <jlebar> bz, when you have some spare cycles, would you mind looking at https://wiki.mozilla.org/WebAPI/EmbeddedBrowserAPI and indicating how much you think we're missing?
# [22:44] <khuey> I think it takes longer to push to try than for my builds to fail
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# [22:44] <@bz> jlebar: looking
# [22:44] * @bz is waiting on his compiler again
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# [22:45] <@bz> jlebar: your probably need various other events too
# [22:46] <jaws> mayhemer: ping?
# [22:46] <@bz> jlebar: (things like notifications that a modal dialog is being opened, requests to create new content areas, etc)
# [22:46] <jlebar> bz, those two are hidden down under "manage some window* apis"
# [22:46] <@bz> jlebar: oh, ok
# [22:46] * @bz keeps reading
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# [22:46] <jlebar> er, alert() is.
# [22:47] <jlebar> bz, what about creating new content areas?
# [22:47] <mayhemer> jaws: pong
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# [22:47] <@bz> jlebar: well, what happens when window.open() is called in the subframe?
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# [22:47] <jaws> mayhemer: should i makr bug 552286 as dependent on bug 62178?
# [22:47] <@bz> jlebar: you want to be able to intercept that and create a window to hand back, right?
# [22:47] <jaws> s/makr/mark
# [22:47] <jlebar> yeah.
# [22:47] <@bz> jlebar: the rest is variatons on the theme
# [22:48] <@bz> jlebar: re content areas
# [22:48] <@bz> ok
# [22:48] <jlebar> bz, okay.
# [22:48] <mayhemer> jaws: no
# [22:48] <@bz> for reload you want different types
# [22:48] <@bz> normal, charset change, etc
# [22:48] <jlebar> I'll add that.
# [22:48] <@bz> (forced)
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# [22:49] <jaws> mayhemer: if we block those requests, shouldn't we have a way to override that block, and isn't what you're working on going to provide that override?
# [22:49] <mayhemer> jaws: I don't work on it
# [22:49] <@bz> do you plan to implement view source?
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# [22:49] <@bz> or just hand it over to Gecko?
# [22:49] <mayhemer> jaws: and there will be an explicit allow button from user
# [22:50] <@bz> in the latter case you just need a token that identifies the thing Gecko should view source of
# [22:50] <@bz> for "view selection source" you just need DOM access
# [22:50] <@bz> or something
# [22:50] <jaws> mayhemer: ok, i'll talk to bsterne
# [22:50] <jlebar> bz, I think view source support is very far down on the list.
# [22:50] <@bz> sure
# [22:50] <mayhemer> jaws: but even though patch for bug 62178 gets fixed, mixd content detection will still be the same as before
# [22:50] * @bz is just thinking out loud
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# [22:51] <jlebar> bz, sure. Before apps were working, loading an app opened a view-source window. So...something works. :)
# [22:51] <@bz> So what does Gecko want from the embedding right now?
# [22:51] <@bz> Things like outerWidth/outerHeight
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# [22:51] <jaws> mayhemer: same as before as in not detected until too late?
# [22:51] <NeilAway> ehsan|sheriff: I can confirm that w2k does not have En/DecodePointer
# [22:51] <@bz> you may want to disable script in the subframe
# [22:51] <@bz> or disable images/plugins/whatever
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# [22:51] <ehsan|sheriff> NeilAway: do you have a win2k system?
# [22:52] <@bz> if you want to be able to implement content policies, you need that
# [22:52] <NeilAway> ehsan|sheriff: yes
# [22:52] <NeilAway> ehsan|sheriff: although I normally only run Gecko 2 on it
# [22:52] <mayhemer> jaws: sorry, I don't understand well enough the question
# [22:52] * Quits: brendan (brendaneic@moz-A286C218.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: brendan)
# [22:52] <ehsan|sheriff> NeilAway: will you be around within the next few hours to test something for me?
# [22:52] <jlebar> heh, we really do <3 abp.
# [22:52] <jaws> mayhemer: ok, no problem. thanks for your help
# [22:52] <@bz> You need a way to inject script into the page
# [22:52] <mayhemer> jaws: np
# [22:52] <@bz> think greasemonkey
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# [22:52] <Wes_> Hey all - I have a complicated page which creates a bunch of CSS transitions, transition-end events, and so on. Bug-free in chrome. Inres
# [22:53] <NeilAway> ehsan|sheriff: well, it's starting to get late... I might be here in about 2-2.5 hour's time or so
# [22:53] <@bz> As far as named windows go...
# [22:53] * Joins: mconley (mconley@moz-7B22FBCF.eng.wind.ca)
# [22:53] <khuey> pushing to ssh://hg.mozilla.org/try
# [22:53] <khuey> searching for changes
# [22:53] <khuey> remote: waiting for lock on repository /repo/hg/mozilla/try held by 'dm-svn02.mo
# [22:53] <khuey> zilla.org:30509'
# [22:53] <khuey> remote: abort: repository /repo/hg/mozilla/try: timed out waiting for lock held
# [22:53] <@bz> you may need to be able to restrict which windows get traversed when looking for a named window
# [22:53] <khuey> by dm-svn02.mozilla.org:30509
# [22:53] <khuey> abort: unexpected response: empty string
# [22:53] <ehsan|sheriff> NeilAway: ok, I'll ping you when I'm ready
# [22:53] <@bz> (we don't now in Gecko, but that's a bug)
# [22:53] <jlebar> <bz> Things like outerWidth/outerHeight -- what do you mean, exactly?
# [22:53] <ehsan|sheriff> NeilAway: if you need to leave, I'll find someone else, no big deal
# [22:54] <Wes_> Hey all - I have a complicated page which creates a bunch of CSS transitions, transition-end events, and so on. Bug-free in chrome. Interesting bug in firefox -- some events/transitions don't get fired..... unless I XYZ in the middle of the loop that sets them up. So far, I have found that XYZ can be console.log() or element.offsetHeight += 0. Any clues as to what direction I should be...
# [22:54] <mayhemer> jaws: we drop the security UI to mixed only after the resource is fully loaded, because someone didn't want empty images break the state (or any resource that actually didn't carry any content)
# [22:54] <Wes_> ...looking, for when I try to create a minimzed bug report?
# [22:54] <@bz> jlebar: web content can ask for the size of the browser window (as opposed to the viewport)
# [22:54] <@bz> Wes_: chances are, this is working correctly
# [22:54] <jlebar> bz, oh, right. Okay.
# [22:54] <@bz> Wes_: the processing model for transitions is .... odd
# [22:54] <@bz> Wes_: when does a transition start?
# [22:54] <mayhemer> jaws: the mixed conent (as the name states it self) is about security state of the content on the page, not about requests we do
# [22:55] <mayhemer> jaws: however, we should drop the security state immediately we detect we are receiving insecure content
# [22:55] * jlebar adds all this to the wiki
# [22:55] <jaws> mayhemer: ok, that makes sense
# [22:55] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/202f4ccbbda1 - Brad Lassey - bug 704520 - Flash content does not have a placeholder if on Android 3.x r=snorp a=java-only
# [22:55] <@bz> jlebar: I'm sure I'm forgetting stuff.... :(
# [22:55] <Wes_> bz: That's a very interesting question, I have been doing approximately X.style.y = b; setTimeout(function() { X.style.y = c, 1}) to start them
# [22:55] <@bz> jlebar: do we care about allowing building something like the DOM inspector?
# [22:56] <jaws> mayhemer: shouldn't we drop the security state earlier when we detect that a request is going out to a non-secure host?
# [22:56] <jlebar> bz, Naturally. But it sounds like the list is more comprehensive than I'd thought if this is all you're forgetting!
# [22:56] <@bz> Wes_: ah. That sometimes works in Chrome, and generally won't in Gecko
# [22:56] <jlebar> er...if this is all you're coming up with.
# [22:56] * merike is now known as merike|away
# [22:56] <mayhemer> jaws: and best (as bug 62178 solves) block any insecure request at all to prevent leak of e.g. cookies or any confidential data with the request
# [22:56] <@bz> Wes_: per spec, transitions start when the computed value changes
# [22:56] <jlebar> bz, DOM inspector would be hard cross-process...
# [22:56] <jaws> mayhemer: ok cool
# [22:56] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
# [22:56] <@bz> Wes_: but the spec doesn't say when the computed value is actually computed
# [22:56] <@bz> Wes_: and in practice browsers do it lazily
# [22:56] <@bz> Wes_: unless something forces them to compute it
# [22:57] <mayhemer> jaws: re "shoudn't we...": that is what I have said - we don't want, since until a content gets back, the page content is secure
# [22:57] <NeilAway> ehsan|sheriff: I might be away for an hour or so, so don't worry if I don't respond immediately in the next 2 hours
# [22:57] <ehsan|sheriff> coop|buildduty: installing software on the slave as admin prompts me for the admin password
# [22:57] <@bz> Wes_: So in your example above, it's entirely possible for X to never have computed style "b" because the first time style is computed is after the timer fired
# [22:57] <@bz> jlebar: indeed
# [22:57] <ehsan|sheriff> NeilAway: ok, sounds good, thanks!
# [22:57] <@bz> jlebar: people do want their devtools, though!
# [22:58] <mayhemer> jaws: so if the response is empty (no body, content-length: 0) we may still indicate a secure state
# [22:58] <jaws> mayhemer: ok, good to know we are saying the same things :)
# [22:58] <Wes_> bz: Interesting, interesting. That doesn't explain exactly how console.log() would cause it to get fixed, but I guess it *does* explain why triggering offsetHeight's getter/setter does
# [22:58] * Parts: lduros (lduros@moz-FBC04720.nic.resnet.group.upenn.edu)
# [22:58] <jlebar> bz, I guess if you're running in a dev environment, it's reasonable for us not to run in a content process.
# [22:58] <@bz> Wes_: for the latter, definitely. For console.log....
# [22:58] <@bz> Wes_: who knows?
# [22:58] <@bz> Wes_: it's entirely possible that the chrome impl of it does something weird
# [22:58] <@bz> Wes_: gimme a sec
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# [23:00] <@bz> Wes_: so...
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# [23:00] <Wes_> bz: Interesting -- I have good results tweaking offsetHeight in both firefox and chrome without bothering with the setTimeout() hack
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# [23:01] <@bz> Wes_: well, yes
# [23:01] <@bz> Wes_: because at that point the style has to get computed
# [23:01] <@bz> Wes_: Better yet would be calling getComputedStyle for the property in question on the element in question
# [23:01] <@bz> Wes_: just in case we ever optimize offsetHeight on random elements to not flush everything out
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# [23:01] <@bz> Wes_: scripted triggering of transitions is a huge pain. ;)
# [23:02] <Wes_> bz: *nod* - I wonder how many web developers do not understand this issue?
# [23:02] <@bz> Wes_: "all of them that try to use transitions"
# [23:02] <Wes_> bz: so I'm discovering. I have some older code that has a setTimeout "backup" trigger, which now I understand why it was necessary
# [23:02] <@bz> Wes_: the number of people who understand it is probably under 10
# [23:02] <khuey> coop|buildduty: I can't push to try
# [23:02] <@bz> Wes_: is my guess
# [23:02] <Wes_> bz: heh. But transitions are SO AWESOME in many ways. Just tricky to use.
# [23:02] <@bz> Wes_: and 7-10 of those are browser developers
# [23:02] <khuey> coop|buildduty: it's timing out waiting for a lock
# [23:02] * timA is now known as timA|lunch
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# [23:03] <jlebar> khuey, I'm trying to push myself.
# [23:03] <jlebar> khuey, but that happens all the time to me.
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# [23:04] <jlebar> khuey, if you're persistent, you'll get the lock.
# [23:04] * jlebar mutters about automatically testing whether pushing to try works.
# [23:04] <coop|buildduty> khuey: we also have a bug on file to reset the try repo due to slowdown. i can push on that this week if it's becoming unbearable
# [23:04] <khuey> you know, I'm not really a concurrency expert
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# [23:05] <khuey> but this sounds less than optimal ;-)
# [23:05] <khuey> coop|buildduty: ok, good to know
# [23:05] <Wes_> bz: You just had half my office rofl'ing -- thanks for the advice, I have some fixing to do now! :)
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# [23:05] <@bz> Wes_: good luck. But what did I say that was so funny?
# [23:06] <Ms2ger> bz, *raises hand* I think we can do better than 10 ;)
# [23:06] <@bz> jlebar: I'm drawing blanks on other stuff
# [23:06] <jlebar> bz, okay. Then we have a good start!
# [23:06] <@bz> Ms2ger: "we"?
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# [23:06] <Ms2ger> The world
# [23:06] <@bz> jlebar: I mean, there's esoterica like CSP implementations and so forth
# [23:06] <@bz> Ms2ger: could be
# [23:06] <@bz> Ms2ger: I have yet to see anyone do this stuff correctly in an actual web page
# [23:06] <jlebar> bz, csp has to be implemented in the front-end?
# [23:06] <Wes_> bz: Thanks. funny: "the number of people who understand it is probably under 10... and 7-10 of those are browser developers"
# [23:07] <@bz> Ms2ger: (with the exception of tests that dbaron or I wrote)
# [23:07] <Ms2ger> I'll believe that
# [23:07] <edmorley> jlebar: roll on the hg upgrade to 1.9 or higher
# [23:07] <@bz> jlebar: well, ideally no. ;)
# [23:07] <jlebar> edmorley, I saw that blog post...
# [23:07] <jlebar> edmorley, /me is in favor of that!
# [23:07] <@bz> jlebar: it all depends on how much flexibility you want to give the browser builder
# [23:07] <@bz> jlebar: oh, tooltips?
# [23:08] <@bz> jlebar: and as far as that goes, hovering over links showing the place where the link will go
# [23:08] <@bz> jlebar: that _is_ implemented in the front end
# [23:08] <@bz> jlebar: also, download managery stuff
# [23:08] <jlebar> bz, indeed, though not on the phone.
# [23:08] <@bz> jlebar: save as, and so forth
# [23:08] <@bz> jlebar: and context menu bits
# [23:08] <@bz> jlebar: yeah, on the phone some of these may not be issues
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# [23:12] <@bz> hmm
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# [23:12] <@bz> pushing to try is a lot slower than it was this morning!
# [23:13] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/releases/mozilla-1.9.2/rev/a603e1bf2da7 - ffxbld - Added tag FIREFOX_3_6_25_RELEASE for changeset 489b4f2582a3. CLOSED TREE a=release
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# [23:13] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/releases/mozilla-1.9.2/rev/bfe226079a74 - ffxbld - Added tag FIREFOX_3_6_25_BUILD1 for changeset 489b4f2582a3. CLOSED TREE a=release
# [23:13] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/releases/mozilla-1.9.2/rev/489b4f2582a3 - ffxbld - Automated checkin: version bump for firefox 3.6.25 release. CLOSED TREE a=release
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# [23:13] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/releases/mozilla-1.9.2/rev/677e7959cf6c - ffxbld - Automated checkin: version bump for firefox 3.6.25 release. CLOSED TREE a=release
# [23:13] <jlebar> bz, khuey mm, my try push is also hung.
# [23:13] <@bz> noooo
# [23:13] <@bz> don't tell me we are now tryless
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# [23:14] * @bz will slaughter and offer as a burnt offering his moco mail account again if that'll bring try back
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# [23:15] * catlee-mtg is now known as catlee
# [23:16] <khuey> jlebar: been trying for > 30 minutes ...
# [23:16] <catlee> I bet that somebody with a really slow connection can hold the lock on try for a long time, which makes other people wait
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# [23:16] <@bz> doesn't it say it's waiting on the lock then?
# [23:17] <jlebar> catlee, in the past, when IT has poked the hg server, they've seen the hg process spinning at 100% CPU.
# [23:17] <@bz> mine said nothing like that
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# [23:17] <jlebar> catlee, which doesn't seem consistent with someone slow holding the lock.
# [23:17] <khuey> mine said it was waiting on the lock
# [23:17] <catlee> bz: it'll say that after a long long long time
# [23:17] <khuey> when it gave up after a long time
# [23:17] <@bz> hmm
# [23:17] <@bz> I see
# [23:17] <@bz> well, that's bad
# [23:18] * @bz considers running mochitest locally
# [23:19] <jlebar> So when I run make check, it consistently fails testRegExpTest, testShiftLeft, and Environment-identity-03. Is that expected? (I'm using a clang build, if it matters.)
# [23:19] <khuey> lock held again
# [23:19] * khuey tries for a third time before he gives up and calls it a day
# [23:19] * nthomas|mtg is now known as nthomas
# [23:19] <@bz> aha
# [23:19] * jlebar cancels his try push so khuey has a better chance.
# [23:19] <@bz> here's my lock error
# [23:19] <@bz> remote: waiting for lock on repository /repo/hg/mozilla/try held by 'dm-svn02.mozilla.org:16193'
# [23:19] <@bz> remote: abort: repository /repo/hg/mozilla/try: timed out waiting for lock held by dm-svn02.mozilla.org:16193
# [23:19] <@bz> abort: unexpected response: empty string
# [23:19] <khuey> yep
# [23:19] <khuey> mine said 16193 too
# [23:19] <@bz> so can we figure out who's holding that lock?
# [23:19] <khuey> the previous one was a different port
# [23:19] <jlebar> coop|buildduty, can we get IT to check out the server?
# [23:19] <@bz> ah
# [23:20] <@bz> so it sounds like multiple people may be involved
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# [23:21] <coop|buildduty> jlebar: pinging IT now
# [23:21] <@bz> coop|buildduty: thanks!
# [23:21] <@bz> khuey: why do you need to give up?
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# [23:21] <@bz> khuey: I mean... you can just script a loop to keep doing this till it wins
# [23:23] <khuey> heh
# [23:23] * armenzg_mtg is now known as armenzg
# [23:23] <espindola> try just got *really* slow again :-(
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# [23:24] <@bz> Ms2ger: btw...
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# [23:24] <@bz> Ms2ger: we may soon have data on bareword usage in on* attributes
# [23:24] <Ms2ger> Thanks for pushing that :)
# [23:25] <@bz> Ms2ger: I dunno how much I "pushed"
# [23:25] <@bz> Ms2ger: John sorta semi-volunteered
# [23:25] <Ms2ger> Asking, then :)
# [23:26] <espindola> with the same error message about dm-svn02.mozilla.org:16193
# [23:27] * Quits: espindola (espindola@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP) (Client exited)
# [23:27] <mcmanus> try is commonly giving me this error on windows mochi-1: Failure instance: Traceback (failure with no frames): <class 'twisted.internet.error.ConnectionLost'>: Connection to the other side was lost in a non-clean fashion.
# [23:27] <mcmanus> try is having a bad time.
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# [23:27] * mbrubeck -> errands for a bit, back to check on the trees soon
# [23:28] <nthomas> mcmanus: on xp ? Are you pushing something close to tip because I think the offending tests got disabled
# [23:28] <ehsan|sheriff> khuey: according to path\to\vc\redist.txt, we're not allowed to modify the crt dlls :(
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# [23:29] <heycam> bz, oh that's great. I was also going to ask whether you thought it was worth experimenting with what I proposed on whatwg.
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# [23:30] <mcmanus> nthomas, no the repo is a few days old. I need spdy in it :( .. are you saying if I revert that in my local tree and update the build exception might go away?
# [23:30] <khuey> ehsan|sheriff: lame
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# [23:30] <heycam> ehsan|sheriff, may I land a test only patch?
# [23:30] <ehsan|sheriff> heycam: yes
# [23:30] <heycam> ehsan|sheriff, thank you
# [23:30] <Ms2ger> heycam, if you land some stuff of mine along with it ;)
# [23:30] <ehsan|sheriff> khuey: this means that the solution that I had in mind won't work :(
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# [23:31] <heycam> Ms2ger, ah yeah sure, what bugs?
# [23:31] <@bz> heycam: maybe
# [23:31] <jlebar> ehsan|sheriff, Could we get MS to give us a different license to the DLL?
# [23:31] <ehsan|sheriff> jlebar: I didn't even know if that's a possibility!
# [23:32] <ehsan|sheriff> jlebar: they could just give us the scripts to build the crt ourselves then ;)
# [23:32] <jlebar> ehsan|sheriff, for serious.
# [23:32] <jlebar> ehsan|sheriff, "Give us the makefiles or we'll make a fuss about how much slower Firefox is on Windows than on Mac/Linux, because MSVC sucks."
# [23:33] * armenzg is now known as armenzg_subway
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# [23:33] <lurking_work> doubt black-mail will work :P
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# [23:33] <jlebar> lurking_work, make-mail?
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# [23:33] <lurking_work> hmm
# [23:33] * ehsan|sheriff tries to think of another solution :/
# [23:33] <Ms2ger> heycam, I've got them in a moment
# [23:34] * Ms2ger adds commit messages
# [23:34] <jlebar> ehsan|sheriff, asking politely might be a start. :)
# [23:34] <ehsan|sheriff> jlebar: well, we need a solution soon
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# [23:34] <ehsan|sheriff> I'm not gonna wait an unlimited amount of time for ms's blessing
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# [23:34] <jlebar> understood.
# [23:35] <jlebar> doesn't mean we can't ask.
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# [23:35] <ehsan|sheriff> unless blizzard tells me that he knows people over there who can get me quick answers
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# [23:35] <ehsan|sheriff> or jprmc even
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# [23:35] <ehsan|sheriff> jlebar: do you know how we can ask that question?
# [23:36] <jlebar> ehsan|sheriff, you mean, do I know to whom you can address an e-mail? No.
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# [23:36] <ehsan|sheriff> jlebar: at mozilla you mean?
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# [23:37] <jlebar> ehsan|sheriff, I suspect the answer is "no", but can you rephrase your first question?
# [23:37] <Ms2ger> heycam, how about I just email them?
# [23:37] <heycam> Ms2ger, ok
# [23:37] <ehsan|sheriff> jlebar: do you know anybody at mozilla who I can contact about this? so that they can act as a proxy perhaps?
# [23:37] * mozillacorporation is now known as joduinn
# [23:37] <philikon> ehsan|sheriff: can i have approval for two non-libxul, NPOTP patches (they're b2g). bug 709862 and bug 709915
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# [23:38] <khuey> ehsan|sheriff: :-(
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# [23:38] <jlebar> ehsan|sheriff, blizzard/jp seems like the right guy. But maybe escalate to damons?
# [23:38] <khuey> jlebar: they'll just tell people to use IE :-P
# [23:38] <ehsan|sheriff> philikon: you've got it :)
# [23:38] <philikon> ehsan|sheriff: thx!
# [23:39] <khuey> NPOTP?
# [23:39] <khuey> not part of the problem?
# [23:39] <ehsan|sheriff> jlebar: I'll just hunt jprmc down in person
# [23:39] <philikon> khuey: lol
# [23:39] <philikon> i guess :)
# [23:39] <jlebar> khuey, I suspect there are a few people at Microsoft who care about having a working compiler.
# [23:39] <jhammel> s/a // ?
# [23:40] <rnewman> heh
# [23:40] <khuey> the compiler works
# [23:40] <khuey> just not for us
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# [23:40] <dougt> coop|buildduty: remote: waiting for lock on repository /repo/hg/mozilla/try held by 'dm-svn02.mozilla.org:10977'
# [23:40] <Ms2ger> heycam, sent, thanks
# [23:40] <jlebar> khuey, Yeah, and FireFox is important for showing how awesome IE is by contrast.
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# [23:41] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/03cd6329e4f9 - Philipp von Weitershausen - Bug 709862 - RIL: no more "incoming" events after the first. r=qDot
# [23:41] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/0e0027468ce0 - Kyle Machulis - Bug 709915 - Change name of RIL socket from rilb2g to rilproxy. r=philikon a=ehsan
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# [23:41] * khuey sighs
# [23:41] <khuey> can't fix the tree when I can't test my patches!
# [23:41] <coop|buildduty> dougt: dustin says that 4 people are attempting to push to try simultaneously right now
# [23:42] <jlebar> coop|buildduty, okay...
# [23:42] <catlee> 4 isnt' many...
# [23:42] * coop|buildduty is going to get the try repo reset into the downtime tomorrow
# [23:42] <jlebar> coop|buildduty, so one of them making forward progress?
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# [23:42] <coop|buildduty> jlebar: in theory
# [23:42] * khuey raises his hand
# [23:42] <khuey> who are the other three?
# [23:42] * khuey needs to know whose internet service needs to be disconnected
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# [23:43] <jlebar> two. Other two.
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# [23:43] <dougt> i am in china, and it takes about 5 minutes between the hg push and getting that error.
# [23:43] <khuey> only 5?
# [23:43] <khuey> it's a lot longer here
# [23:43] <dougt> could be more.
# [23:43] <ehsan|sheriff> jlebar: I'll follow up on the redist possibility
# [23:43] * aki|mtg is now known as aki
# [23:44] * espindola is trying to push to try
# [23:44] * bhearsum is now known as bhearsum|afk
# [23:44] <khuey> you should stop
# [23:44] <khuey> so I can push to try
# [23:45] <espindola> done
# [23:45] * @bz suggests to pushing to try to push
# [23:45] <jlebar> ehsan|sheriff, Can we close try so khuey can push in peace?
# [23:45] <khuey> webkit's commit bot would come in really land right now
# [23:45] <khuey> er
# [23:45] <khuey> handy
# [23:45] <khuey> not land
# [23:45] * khuey sighs
# [23:45] <jlebar> working IT would come in handy right now.
# [23:45] <ehsan|sheriff> ?
# [23:45] * Quits: TheLink (TheLink@moz-4FAE5288.pools.arcor-ip.net) (Client exited)
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# [23:46] <ehsan|sheriff> khuey: if you wanna close try, be my guest :)
# [23:46] <khuey> heh
# [23:46] <jlebar> I'm serious.
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# [23:46] <lurking_work> no ones using in-bound - claim it for your private-try
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# [23:47] <jlebar> khuey, you probably need to have IT cancel the outstanding try pushes after you close the tree.
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# [23:51] <edmorley> khuey: we should just set bug 623505 to be a blocker and be done with it (given comment 11)
# [23:52] <glandium> khuey: at least, mine works reliably with PGO https://tbpl.mozilla.org/?tree=Try&rev=af4700fc9c59
# [23:52] <heycam> ehsan|sheriff, approval to land six of Ms2ger's code removal patches too?
# [23:52] * Quits: brendan (brendaneic@moz-A286C218.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: brendan)
# [23:52] <@bz> ooh
# [23:52] <ehsan|sheriff> heycam: please!
# [23:52] <@bz> did someone manage to push to try?
# [23:52] <heycam> ehsan|sheriff, thanks
# [23:53] <khuey> glandium: mine just has some build problems on *nix
# [23:53] <Ms2ger> ehsan|sheriff, thanks
# [23:53] * khuey thinks he's solved them
# [23:53] <khuey> if he could actually get them built
# [23:53] <glandium> khuey: mine should be good on *nix, but i didn't try it. Feel free to, if you want ; i'm off to bed
# [23:53] <@mkaply> Can someone remind me of the URL to see the change sets between two change set revisions?
# [23:53] <@mkaply> I have e898a773a4fb and 8753de11b181
# [23:54] <catlee-away> ?fromchange=X&tochange=Y
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# [23:54] <@mkaply> tx
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# [23:56] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/11fde9432914 - Ms2ger - Bug 709511 - Remove unused nsCharsetMenu::SetCharsetCheckmark; r=smontagu r=ehsan
# [23:56] <dougt> coop|buildduty: so, when will try be working again?
# [23:56] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/9f70e0a46ff8 - Ms2ger - Bug 709511 - Remove unused nsCharsetMenu::kNC_Checked; r=smontagu a=ehsan
# [23:56] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/08d4db06a352 - Ms2ger - Bug 709603 - Remove unused variables 'type' in CallMethodHelper::Get{ArraySize,InterfaceType}FromParam; r=bholley a=ehsan
# [23:56] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/eb5d4c08a542 - Ms2ger - Bug 709513 - Remove unused PREF_GetCharPref; r=bsmedberg a=ehsan
# [23:56] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/5d433c640bc6 - Cameron McCormack - Bug 708107 - Remove calls to ignoreAllUncaughtExceptions() from these devtools tests. r=robcee a=ehsan
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# [23:57] <dougt> coop|buildduty: because man, i really need to be pushing code.
# [23:57] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/4940c4b3c101 - Ms2ger - Bug 709519 - Remove unused 1-argument nsRenderingContext::DrawEllipse; r=joe a=ehsan
# [23:57] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/99da78c5fe27 - Ms2ger - Bug 709522 - Remove unused imgFrame::Get{X,Y,Width,Height}; r=joe a=ehsan
# [23:57] * reuben cringes when he sees "FireFox" on planet
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# [23:57] <dustin> hi
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# [23:57] <jhammel> reuben: you prefer f1r3F0><?
# [23:57] <jlebar> dustin, So in https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=691459#c9 , you're saying that try is working fine, just that there's contention for the repo lock?
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# [23:58] <jlebar> dustin, And as evidence, you say that there were a bunch of people trying to push, but now you see only khuey and dougt?
# [23:58] <jlebar> dustin, The rest of us cancelled out pushes so that khuey would have a better chance. And it looks like dougt was uanble to push.
# [23:58] <jlebar> So I don't know what's going on, but I'm a bit frustrated that every time we mention that there's a problem, we're told that there isn't o ne.
# [23:58] <dustin> well, let's not get into the meta-discussion
# [23:59] <dustin> so I see three pushes right now
# [23:59] <dustin> one thing we can do is try to trim the heads
# [23:59] <dustin> I don't know how to do that myself
# [23:59] <dustin> but that usually makes it faster
# [23:59] <dougt> long term, this shouldn't happen again
# [23:59] <reuben> jhammel, you forgot the space between f1r3 and F0><
# Session Close: Tue Dec 13 00:00:00 2011

The end :)