/irc-logs / mozilla / #developers / 2012-02-09 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Feb 09 00:00:00 2012
# Session Ident: #developers
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# [00:05] <kutsurak> edmorley I'd be happy to help :) Is MattN's patch in central yet?
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# [00:06] <edmorley> kutsurak: yup https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=294260#c54 :-)
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# [00:06] <kutsurak> edmorley OK I'll check out tomorrow morning.
# [00:07] <taras> ehsan: i don't get your reasoning in 702463
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# [00:07] <edmorley> kutsurak: I'm thinking a dev.platform newsgroup post advising people to use TEST_DIRS from now on might be a good idea at some later point (think there was perhaps a newsgroup/planet blog post previously, but suspect a reminder might be useful)
# [00:08] <@ehsan> taras: in short, fixing that bug won't buy us anything perf-wise
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# [00:08] <taras> ehsan: it'll reduce amount of drawing when drawing is slow
# [00:09] <edmorley> kutsurak: cool, no rush on the followup - wasn't meaning you had to do it straight away :-)
# [00:09] <kutsurak> edmorley: heh yes :)
# [00:09] <@ehsan> taras: no it won't
# [00:09] <taras> ehsan: which should make scrolling faster
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# [00:09] <taras> ehsan: why not?
# [00:09] <@ehsan> drawing is triggered from the refresh driver
# [00:09] <@ehsan> and other times do not affect the frequency of the refresh driver
# [00:09] <@ehsan> unless they run for too long
# [00:09] <@ehsan> in which case the same thing happens if the code in questions runs under the refresh driver itself
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# [00:10] <kutsurak> edmorley It's ok, I have some spare time this period so why not do something useful with it? ;)
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# [00:10] <taras> ehsan: so drawing is already under refresh driver?
# [00:10] <@roc> yes
# [00:10] <@roc> as of recently
# [00:11] <@ehsan> yes
# [00:11] <@ehsan> right
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# [00:11] <edmorley> kutsurak: risky thing to say here, you'll end up with 50 more bugs being given to you ;-)
# [00:11] <taras> ehsan: so shouldn't that bug be wontfixed?
# [00:11] <taras> or duped
# [00:12] <kutsurak> hehe :)
# [00:12] <@ehsan> no
# [00:12] <@ehsan> taras: there's still some value in getting rid of that extra timer
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# [00:13] <@ehsan> but it won't make firefox snappier :)
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# [00:13] <taras> right, an you adjust the description accordingly?
# [00:13] <taras> can
# [00:13] <@ehsan> the summary?
# [00:13] <taras> right
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# [00:13] <@ehsan> ok will do
# [00:13] <taras> thanks for looking into this
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# [00:13] <@ehsan> np :)
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# [00:15] <@ehsan> roc: would you say that I should ask for approval on the followup patch for bug 725069?
# [00:16] <@roc> yes, it's safer
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# [00:16] <@ehsan> roc: I meant, as opposed to just landing it :)
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# [00:20] <@roc> dunno
# [00:20] <@roc> you're trying to get cover to do something naughty, aren't you
# [00:20] <@ehsan> roc: yes ;)
# [00:20] <@ehsan> good catch!
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# [00:20] * @ehsan goes to do things the right way :)
# [00:20] <@khuey> bz: ping
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# [00:21] <@khuey> oh wow it's 3 already
# [00:21] <@khuey> how did that happen
# [00:21] <@ehsan> khuey: wrong time, it's 6
# [00:22] <cmr> it's 1:14 what are you silly people talking about.
# [00:22] <jhammel> khuey: so the earth has rotational inertia which causes it to revolve around its own axis in a manner much more quickly than its gravitational center orbits the sun; given such, the so-called "day" is approximated as a complete revolution about its axis which resembles the sun being in a similar place in the sky at +/- 24 hours
# [00:22] * @ehsan giggles on how both khuey and cmr are wrong
# [00:23] <@ehsan> jhammel: this kind of answer to "wow it's 3 already" can only happen on #developers :D
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# [00:23] <cmr> Oh damn
# [00:23] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/7c0ba1c98ff7 - Benjamin Smedberg - Bug 723473: Fix crash with Flashblock, regression from bug 90268. r=josh
# [00:23] <cmr> I was an hour in the wrong direction
# [00:24] <cmr> I meant 23:16
# [00:24] <jhammel> khuey: therefore an arbitrary time system may be constructed by calling some local "noon" when the sun is highest in the sky and "midnight" being the antipode of noon with a division, in Babylonian style, of 12 "hours" in between....
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# [00:24] <@khuey> ehsan: no, it's 3
# [00:24] <@ehsan> cmr: told you that you're wrong :P
# [00:24] <jhammel> well, its 15:17
# [00:24] <jhammel> that's what my computer tells me and i don't question it
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# [00:31] <jlebar> Can we use variadic macros?
# [00:31] <jlebar> Pretty please?
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# [00:32] <@khuey> why don't we?
# [00:33] <@khuey> gcc and msvc both support them, right?
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# [00:33] <jlebar> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms177415%28v=vs.80%29.aspx
# [00:33] <jlebar> vs2005, apparently
# [00:33] <jlebar> So...I guess so?
# [00:33] * jlebar goes for it.
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# [00:33] <@ehsan> jlebar: and pray that we won't revert to vs2005 :P
# [00:34] <jlebar> ehsan, Even vs 2005 supports it. Maybe not 2003.
# [00:34] <@khuey> jlebar: should probably ask on the newsgroup first
# [00:34] <@khuey> presumably there's a reason we're not using it ...
# [00:35] <jlebar> khuey, There's a trick to get macro(("foo", "bar")) to expand into printf("foo", "bar");
# [00:35] <jlebar> But I forget how it works...
# [00:35] <jhammel> khuey: a silly assumption ;)
# [00:35] <@khuey> jhammel: there's a reason
# [00:35] <@khuey> it might be a horribly outdated reason
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# [00:37] <jtcranmer> we've been using variadic macros for quite some time
# [00:38] <jlebar> orly?
# [00:38] <jlebar> fantastic.
# [00:38] <@smaug> jlebar: #define FOO(args) printf args ;
# [00:38] <jcranmer|away> jlebar: #define macro(x) printf x
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# [00:38] <jlebar> jcranmer|away, smaug Ah, I see. But that doesn't help me here, because I'm trying to do
# [00:38] <anant> ehsan: thanks for your comments on the -webapp bug, I responded - feel free to ping me if you have any further questions!
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# [00:39] <jlebar> #define foo(...) PR_sxprintf(blah, blah, __VA_ARGS__)
# [00:39] <jtcranmer> yeah, __VA_ARGS__ is so much better
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# [00:40] <@ehsan> anant: sure
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# [00:46] <NeilAway> jlebar: indeed, 2003 does not, but 2005 does
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# [00:53] <jhammel> rhelmer: ping
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# [00:54] <rhelmer> jhammel: pong
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# [01:03] <GeekShadow> hello
# [01:04] <GeekShadow> where is located the code used to search on location bar based on keyword.URL ?
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# [01:04] <jgilbert> What do I do if I labeled a patch push with the wrong bug number?
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# [01:07] <sicking> khuey: a little birdie told me that we no longer need to build in layout/build/ after changing and recompiling in for example dom/ any more. Could this be true?
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# [01:08] <@dolske> jgilbert: nothing you can do to fix history, alas. You can ignore it, backout and reland, or land a "opps, no, this bug instead" changeset touching the affected files.
# [01:09] <@khuey> sicking: it's not true yet
# [01:09] <sicking> khuey: ok
# [01:09] <jgilbert> fun
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# [01:09] <@khuey> sicking: if you do make -B in toolkit/library you can skip the layout/build step
# [01:10] <@khuey> sicking: make -B unconditionally rebuilds everything
# [01:10] <sicking> khuey: that sounds slower
# [01:10] <sicking> ?
# [01:10] <@khuey> sicking: not sure, haven't measured
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# [01:12] <NeilZZZ> anyone know what "س, 05-فبر-2022 23:56:37 GMT" is?
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# [01:13] <eflores> Tried running it through google translate?
# [01:14] <hub> it is a date.
# [01:14] <hub> not sure which script
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# [01:14] <jgilbert> thanks dolske, dholbert
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# [01:15] <NeilAway> ok, so turns out that parsing of non-ascii dates was incidentally fixed by the NSPR4.9b5 update back on Dec 13
# [01:15] <mbrubeck> hub: Google Translate says فبر is Arabic for "Feb."
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# [01:16] <mbrubeck> and س is a letter that it wants to translate as Q or X
# [01:16] <jhammel> 2022 though....
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# [01:17] <hub> maybe he was driving at 88mph :-)
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# [01:17] <jhammel> heh
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# [01:17] <jhammel> well at least we know the universe doesn't end in 2012, as has been prophesied
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# [01:21] <NeilAway> jhammel: that was an http cookie header that an old build choked on
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# [01:22] <@roc> mbrubeck: try running it through Ehsan
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# [01:24] <rnewman> does anyone know if there's an existing preprocessor variable for verbose logging that's disabled in beta/release, but enabled in nightly and aurora?
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# [01:31] <@bz> Uh
# [01:31] <@bz> is bugzilla down?
# [01:32] <jgilbert> down for me
# [01:32] * @bz was getting "unable to connect"s
# [01:32] <jhammel> wfm
# [01:33] <jgilbert> back for me
# [01:33] <cmr> Works for me
# [01:33] <@bz> works for me now too
# [01:33] <jgilbert> \o/
# [01:34] <cjones> down for me
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# [01:35] <cjones> ok second try worked
# [01:35] <cjones> it's being coy
# [01:35] <nthomas> some short of short break in connectivity in the Phoenix datacenter
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# [01:46] <@ehsan> mbrubeck: anything I can help with?
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# [01:49] <mbrubeck> ehsan: NeilZZZ asked: anyone know what "س, 05-فبر-2022 23:56:37 GMT" is?
# [01:49] <mbrubeck> Apparently this was a string in a cookie header that triggered a bug.
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# [01:49] <cmr> Looks like it wants to be a timestamp
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# [01:50] <@ehsan> mbrubeck: فبر is the transliteration for Fbr
# [01:50] <@ehsan> which I assume means February
# [01:51] <@ehsan> let me look up the other one
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# [01:51] <@ehsan> hmm
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# [01:54] <@ehsan> mbrubeck: I'm not sure what س means here
# [01:55] <@ehsan> mrbkap: I think this is Arabic not Persian
# [01:55] <@ehsan> mbrubeck: ^
# [01:55] <@ehsan> and my Arabic knowledge is rusty
# [01:55] <@ehsan> it might denote the timezone
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# [01:56] <@ehsan> mbrubeck: does this help?
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# [01:59] <mbrubeck> ehsan: Thanks. I think we were all just curious.
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# [01:59] <mbrubeck> Google Translate got the month part, but wasn't any help with the timezone either (and I wasn't able to google anything useful)
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# [02:04] <@ehsan> mbrubeck: the second one is just a single letter of the alphabet
# [02:04] <@ehsan> so it might stand for tons of things ;)
# [02:04] <mbrubeck> yeah
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# [02:04] <mbrubeck> I wonder if it's a system like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_time_zones
# [02:05] <jhammel> heh, i bet people would be glad of Whiskey time ;)
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# [02:06] <jhammel> "In Alaska, its always Whiskey Time"
# [02:07] <@ehsan> mbrubeck: could be :)
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# [02:34] <zwol> My Usual Informant is complaining about unreliable cache behavior again.
# [02:34] <zwol> Is there a combination of settings that is *supposed to* produce this set of effects:
# [02:35] <zwol> 1) EVERYTHING is ALWAYS revalidated.
# [02:35] <zwol> 2) View Source NEVER hits the server.
# [02:35] <zwol> 3) It would be nice if the back button never hit the server either.
# [02:36] <zwol> (obviously (1) only applies on reload and/or fresh load)
# [02:36] <bjacob> zwol: i think a lot of cache problems would be fixed if we wiped the cache on every page load
# [02:36] <@khuey> lol
# [02:36] <zwol> I'm aware of the decades-long argument over back-forward versus no-cache, btw
# [02:37] <bjacob> back-forward? sounds like a dance
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# [02:39] <zwol> to quote:
# [02:39] <zwol> <me> if the page cache is disabled-in-general then the as-received source is just gone
# [02:39] <zwol> <them> but I want that off, because I'm developing, and I want the real source because I'm developing
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# [02:40] <cmr> Isn't there the Cache-Control header for that?
# [02:40] <zwol> Server isn't sending any cache-control headers
# [02:40] <sicking> khuey: varargs FTW!!!!
# [02:40] <zwol> also, I already know they'll say "I need a solution that works regardless of how misconfigured the server is."
# [02:40] <cmr> Well then they suck!
# [02:40] <cmr> :)
# [02:41] <zwol> I appreciate that you are trying to make a joke, but dude, not funny.
# [02:41] <edmorley> inbound burny burny
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# [02:43] <mbrubeck> I can back out
# [02:43] <@khuey> sicking: indeed
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# [02:44] <mbrubeck> backed out
# [02:44] <edmorley> mbrubeck: mid-push, but thank you :-)
# [02:44] <mbrubeck> ha!
# [02:44] <mbrubeck> beat you :)
# [02:44] <edmorley> ha
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# [02:45] <edmorley> mercurial takes too long on my rubbish (and failing) disk :-(
# [02:47] <biesi> if you have a failing disk, a slow mercurial is maybe not your most important problem...
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# [02:50] <edmorley> well indeed, but it is what I have for now, and there is insufficient room on any of my main storage drives for a windows install & numerous repos
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# [03:12] <@roc> MDN dwn?
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# [03:15] <edmorley> roc: wfm
# [03:16] <@roc> yeah, it just came back
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# [03:17] <Callek> mbrubeck: sooo, phases.... would setting mq.phase=secret still work with try -- once the phases=False is set there?
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# [04:06] <jhammel> is tbpl having "issues"?
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# [04:07] <jhammel> i keep getting connection reset when try to look at my try logs
# [04:07] <ewong> ditto here
# [04:09] <jhammel> boo :( well so much for being productive tonight
# [04:09] <ewong> can't even seem to get the summaries either
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# [04:39] <philor> yeah, the issue tbpl is having is that ftp.m.o is close to hosed, so buildbot failed to upload a bunch of logs, and those that might have been uploaded don't actually get served
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# [04:41] <philor> "surf:avg load is CRITICAL: CRITICAL - load average: 110.09, 113.15, 120.64"
# [04:41] <philor> oddly enough, that didn't go well
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# [04:46] <ewong> umm.. is bmo down?
# [04:46] <ewong> oh nvm.. just slow
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# [05:09] <mbrubeck> Callek_Away: I'm not sure how phase=secret works with publish=false repositories.
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# [06:13] <philor> wow, that's awful - I just realized that for at least one Android failure, I don't actually look at the words in the log, I look at the size and shape of the right edge of the block of text for the buildstep
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# [06:13] <philor> comment 482, I'm probably actually doing that accurately, but still...
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# [07:11] <gcp> what component does maintenanceservice.exe belong to?
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# [07:12] <Unfocused> gcp: Toolkit :: Application Update
# [07:12] <gcp> toolkit/application update, I guess
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# [07:16] <philor> jst: bustage
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# [07:25] <philor> jst: backed out, but I don't have access to the bug to say so there
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# [07:33] <dholbert> philor, I noted it on the bug
# [07:33] <dholbert> philor, thanks!
# [07:33] <philor> np, thank you
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# [07:34] <dholbert> np
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# [08:17] <gcp> why does our windows uninstaller want to reboot the machine?
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# [08:19] <Callek> Asa: you still yp?
# [08:19] <Callek> s/yp/up/
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# [08:20] <Callek> Asa: looking for a bug# relating to the news article you forward to "us" at ~12:21am my time (9:21p your time)
# [08:21] <philor> gcp: file in use - there's a list of a half-dozen that will force a reboot if something's touching them
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# [08:32] <ewong> what flag in .hgrc do I need to add in order to have my username added to the patch?
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# [08:35] <jdm> ewong: username field under [ui]
# [08:35] <jdm> oh wait
# [08:35] <ewong> hmm I have my username in [ui]
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# [08:35] <jdm> ewong: you want -U for diff and qdiff under defaults
# [08:35] <ewong> ahhh
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# [08:37] <gcp> nothing like bisecting a total breakage to your own patch.
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# [08:41] <ewong> jdm thanks!
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# [08:46] <Callek> Asa: nevermind, I got the answer to the Q I was after
# [08:47] <Callek> ewong: yea I don't know what happened there, but obviously something did (that push with the wrong username)
# [08:47] <Callek> ewong: fwiw, a blank hg commit without a user specified/set will _error_ so that weird username was set *somehow* on that system
# [08:49] <ewong> Callek that system's too polluted with a bunch of other setups :(
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# [09:02] <glazou> a frozen "bonjour"
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# [09:11] <glob> glazou, how frozen are you?
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# [09:12] <ewong> glazou is so frozen that when he cannot breath out as the air in his lungs has frozen... ;P
# [09:12] <glob> i have an excess of heat here (36C/95F), i'll email glazou some
# [09:12] <Callek> ewong: it takes a certain kind of cold to freeze the air in your lungs.... oxygen/nitrogen freezing is quite tough
# [09:13] <Callek> glob: I'll take some of that heat too
# [09:13] <Callek> 2-4°C sounds GREAT to me
# [09:13] <Callek> (additional heat)
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# [09:14] <glazou> glob: -10°C and windy
# [09:14] <glob> glazou, ouch
# [09:14] <glazou> perceived temperature probably around -16°C
# [09:15] <ewong> ah wind chills
# [09:15] * philor is now known as philor|away
# [09:15] <WeirdAl> glazou: brr
# [09:15] <glazou> glob: d'oh, where are you based ? auz ? nz ?
# [09:15] <glob> glazou, perth, australia
# [09:16] <glazou> lucky man
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# [09:16] <Callek> glob: its -10°C in perth today.... WOW
# [09:16] <glob> Callek, um
# [09:16] <glob> Callek, no
# [09:16] * glazou will launch a fresh build on laptop and heat his hands on it :-)
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# [09:16] <glob> Callek, maybe that's perth, scotland
# [09:16] <Callek> oooooo s/glob/glazou/
# [09:17] <WeirdAl> glazou: -j1
# [09:17] <Callek> yea, I was confused
# [09:17] <glob> Callek, me too :P
# [09:17] <Callek> glob: I was gonna say, I thought it was summer in australia, and at this time of year perth is quite warm indeed
# [09:17] <Callek> :-)
# [09:19] <glazou> Callek: eheh
# [09:20] <glazou> WeirdAl: exactly ; and I don't have a recent core i7 but an old core 2 duo :-)
# [09:20] <WeirdAl> shoot, I'm running a five year old Mac
# [09:21] <Callek> should I feel weird for wanting to run a mini server farm in his basement in the winter
# [09:21] <ewong> no..
# [09:21] <Callek> I can do sooo much compiling and heat my whole house, for merely some MegaWatt Hours
# [09:22] * glazou imagines a water circulation system around the servers heating Callek's house and laughs
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# [09:22] <Callek> glazou: heh I could use it as my hot water heater too, sure
# [09:23] <Callek> though I'd spend my nights worrying over that system springing a leak and destroying thousands of dollars worth of computers
# [09:25] <glazou> I would myself think of a broken water system that would cost dozens of thousands to fix...
# [09:25] <glazou> computers are easy to fix, get another one
# [09:25] <glazou> fixing a house is harder
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# [09:27] <Callek> hahaha
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# [09:37] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/ca84ab42bd5b - Tim Taubert - merge m-c to fx-team
# [09:37] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/b3a4b572a634 - Dietrich Ayala - Bug 715402 - Wait for chrome MozAfterPaint before executing any code not critical to making the initial window visible; r=gavin
# [09:37] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/250f556a5d49 - Rob Campbell - Bug 717373 - Remove the textarea fallback from the Source Editor; r=msucan
# [09:37] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/017fe66d143b - Victor Porof - Bug 699121 - Style Editor should save file:// URLs immediately; r=cedricv,paul
# [09:37] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/73dec0853c3c - Tim Taubert - Bug 695705 - Intermittent TEST-UNEXPECTED-FAIL | browser/base/content/test/tabview/browser_tabview_bug628061.js | There are two groups - Got 1, expected 2; r=dietrich
# [09:38] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/097b38220aa7 - Tim Taubert - Bug 721417 - Can't drag and drop URL into about:newtab; r=fryn
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# [09:51] <darktrojan> is there a know personas bug in 10.0?
# [09:51] <darktrojan> Unfocused?
# [09:51] <darktrojan> known*
# [09:51] <glob> personas/browserid or personas/skins ?
# [09:51] <darktrojan> skins
# [09:52] <darktrojan> my dad just updated and his picture of snoopy has vanished :(
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# [09:53] <mak> Unfocused: ^
# [09:53] <mak> making snoopy disappear is not good
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# [09:53] <glob> bmo has just been updated; http://bugzil.la/723394,723646,713325,723512,723398,533012,716907,713213
# [09:54] <darktrojan> ok snoopy is back, dunno wtf happened there
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# [09:58] <Unfocused> darktrojan: none that i know of, but i'm behind on my bugmail since my time off
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# [09:59] <darktrojan> I couldn't find anything, and it came back after a restart, so .... meh
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# [10:09] <Ameya> Which method gets called on FF start up?
# [10:10] <Ameya> Which method gets called on FF start up?
# [10:10] <Ameya> I read that nsChromeRegistry::ProcessManifestBuffer() in nsChromeRegistry.cpp gets invoked at the begining...
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# [10:11] <Ameya> But now there is no such function exist....
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# [10:13] <Ameya> hello Anyone present...?
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# [10:15] <@roc> lots of methods get called on startup
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# [10:54] <hsivonen> who is tweeting as mozhacks? did you noticed that the article from glazou you promoted is a call for action to lobby Mozilla volunteer to keep hurting because of -webkit-only sites?
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# [10:59] <surkov> is nspr logging still a right way to write logs?
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# [11:17] <TheOne> does a swf file loaded in chrome context have other priviledges than one loaded from content context?
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# [11:17] <darktrojan> swf can do pretty much whatever it likes
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# [11:18] <darktrojan> AFAIK
# [11:18] <TheOne> so it's independent from which context it has been loaded in
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# [11:19] <Unfocused> in the context of loading a swf from the internet?
# [11:20] <TheOne> yes
# [11:20] <Unfocused> i'd say general rules apply - always load into content
# [11:21] <Unfocused> iirc, it does inherit the security principle, but i don't know what practical effect that has
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# [11:22] <Unfocused> i doubt loading plugins into chrome is something that's been greatly tested
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# [11:25] <Unfocused> and iirc, swf can (at least in some cases) access JS of the page
# [11:26] <TheOne> hm
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# [11:33] <gcp> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Mobile/Platforms/Android
# [11:33] <gcp> Nightly links are proken. I don't seem to have perms to fix it.
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# [11:34] * Unfocused doubts he does either
# [11:35] <Unfocused> nope. QR code would presumably need updated anyway. bug #mobile ?
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# [11:37] <nthomas> better to point at http://nightly.mozilla.org
# [11:37] <Unfocused> indeed, now that's actually useful
# [11:39] <darktrojan> :-/ that handy list of phones doesn't have the one I want to get
# [11:40] <gcp> darktrojan: which one?
# [11:40] <Unfocused> if it's ARMv7 and android 2.1 or newer, chances are that it'll run firefox
# [11:40] <darktrojan> htc wildfire s
# [11:40] <darktrojan> I guess it's fine
# [11:41] <darktrojan> also I'm broke so that's not happening soon
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# [11:42] <Unfocused> darktrojan: nope - http://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/834902
# [11:42] <gcp> well, ARMv6 support was done...yesterday
# [11:42] <gcp> so you might get it soon
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# [11:42] <Unfocused> heh
# [11:43] <Unfocused> i'd expect that to be hit and miss for awhile
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# [11:43] <darktrojan> in that case there's something else wrong with that wikimo page
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# [11:54] <@roc> AryehGregor: you rock!
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# [11:54] <@roc> hsivonen: Christian Heilmann maybe?
# [11:55] <Ms2ger> roc, indeed he does
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# [11:59] <edmorley> glazou++
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# [12:05] <@roc> glazou's heart is in the right place, and most of what he recommends is good. It just won't work.
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# [12:25] <edmorley> mounir: inbound burning
# [12:26] <glazou> roc: I am not sure 100% it will work ; I am saying it is worth trying before shooting for the last resort option that will put us in hell for years
# [12:27] <glazou> last resort should really remain last
# [12:27] <glazou> and browser vendors did not try calling the press and the communities
# [12:27] <glazou> so I'm doing it
# [12:28] <glazou> if doing that is bad, then I accept I'm bad
# [12:29] <@roc> no, I think that part's good
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# [12:29] <glazou> you mean asking vendors to stop doing it?
# [12:29] <glazou> won't work ?
# [12:29] <@roc> Opera and Mozilla people have tried working with sites directly with limited success, so I doubt your blog post will be more effective
# [12:29] <glazou> that's entirely possible
# [12:29] <glazou> but worth trying
# [12:29] <@roc> what you ask of Web devs is good
# [12:29] <@roc> I just don't think it'll work
# [12:30] <@roc> we have been trying
# [12:30] <@roc> it hasn't worked
# [12:30] <glazou> roc: I think browser vendors underestimate seriously the PR negative impact if you follow that path
# [12:30] <glazou> (and that I don't really care)
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# [12:31] <glazou> I only care about preserving the architecture of the web and in that sense, the proposed solution seems to me extremely dangerous
# [12:31] <glazou> let me state it clearly : if I have to promise to use windows forever to avoid that, I'll do it :-)
# [12:32] <@roc> did you support my attempt to get transitions, animations, and transforms unprefixed immediately last year?
# [12:33] <@roc> the proposed solution doesn't sit well with me either, but it seems less bad than perpetuating a Webkit mobile monopoly forever
# [12:34] <@roc> which is the path we're on
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# [12:36] <glazou> it was proposed again yesterday during ftf
# [12:36] <glazou> and many people around the table highlighted issues doing that
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# [12:37] <glazou> I remind you a WG is only made of its members
# [12:37] <@roc> Henri quite correctly pointed out that this situation is a lot worse than the IE6 situation, since at least with IE6 we felt free to standardize and implement whatever IE APIs we felt made sense. With the current situation, we're voluntarily agreeing not to implement the Webkit APIs and stay at a disadvantage
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# [12:37] <glazou> and these members are the browser vendors
# [12:37] <glazou> I understand perfectly the situation roc
# [12:37] <glazou> I wrote we understand the diagnosis and the proposed solution
# [12:38] <glazou> I am just fighting against what I consider an understandable BUT dangerous solution
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# [12:39] <@roc> the current path is even more dangerous
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# [12:51] <mak> mounir: inbound burning on your push
# [12:52] <Archaeopteryx> mak: he left for lunch 40 minutes ago, no idea if he returned
# [12:52] <mak> Archaeopteryx: ok :(
# [12:52] * mak is hungry too
# [12:54] <mak> at first glance looks like he forgot to add some file
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# [12:58] <glazou> speaking of food...
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# [13:01] <darktrojan> what's mochitest-robocop?
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# [13:02] <Archaeopteryx> darktrojan: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Auto-tools/Projects/Robocop ?
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# [13:05] <darktrojan> I see
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# [13:06] * darktrojan tries to think of a nice way to say "this bug has been review? since december"
# [13:08] <Unfocused> "<name> - any ETA on this review?"
# [13:08] <edmorley> darktrojan: do the "Hi, you you have a rough ETA or is there someone else that might be more appropriate to ask for review?"
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# [13:09] <Unfocused> ^ even better
# [13:10] <edmorley> mak|afk: going to back mounir out
# [13:10] * darktrojan notices Unfocused's review queue is quite short
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# [13:13] <Unfocused> i only just emptied that :P
# [13:13] <Unfocused> what is it?
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# [13:13] <darktrojan> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=469434
# [13:14] <darktrojan> I only really want to land it so I can reuse some of the test code :/
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# [13:18] <Unfocused> technically i'm a toolkit peer... but its been awhile since i looked at that code (oh god, make the flashbacks stop...). will have a look, at least
# [13:19] <darktrojan> I'm sure dao's just forgotten about it
# [13:19] <darktrojan> he'll get around to it
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# [13:20] <Unfocused> darktrojan: ok, ping me if he doesn't
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# [13:21] <darktrojan> at least that code has tests now, so we hsivonen will know when he breaks stuff implementing the html6 parser
# [13:21] <Unfocused> haha
# [13:21] <Ms2ger> There will be no html6 parser, fortunately
# [13:22] <darktrojan> good
# [13:22] * darktrojan stops making tests
# [13:23] <@smaug> Ms2ger: if Google's ideas for <template> will be accepted, we should perhaps start to call it html6 parser
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# [13:23] <Ms2ger> I will call it the HTML parser :)
# [13:24] <darktrojan> that sounds like xbl in disguise
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# [13:24] <Ms2ger> It is
# [13:24] <@smaug> that is better :=
# [13:24] <darktrojan> \o/
# [13:24] <Ms2ger> Google just hasn't realized it yet
# [13:25] <@smaug> well, somehow Google tries to sneak in their model-view proposal into webcomponents ...
# [13:26] <Ms2ger> Do I hear surprise? :)
# [13:26] <@smaug> no, you don't :)
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# [13:27] <Ms2ger> Good :)
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# [13:57] <gabor> mrbkap: ping
# [14:00] <mrbkap> gabor: I'm going to get a coffee, but pong in 5 or so minutes.
# [14:01] <gabor> mrbkap: ok, I'll need one too anyway
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# [14:08] <heeen> glandium: did this stuff eventually land? http://glandium.org/blog/?p=1296
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# [14:09] <glandium> heeen: half of it is elfhack and is there. the reordering half is not, but we'll need it for android soon enough
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# [14:11] <mrbkap> gabor: pong for real this time.
# [14:12] <gabor> mrbkap: so it's about https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=673468
# [14:12] <heeen> glandium: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/phnqv/optimizing_firefox_startup_time_on_linux_a_very/
# [14:12] <heeen> if you want to give a followup
# [14:13] <gabor> it's not really clear for me why is it dangerous to use object from other compartments in the hashmap as keys...
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# [14:16] <mrbkap> gabor: looking
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# [14:23] <mrbkap> gabor: hmm, you might have to wait until billm wakes up for your answer.
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# [14:24] <mrbkap> gabor: I think the general idea is that the GC expects cross compartment references to live in exactly one place (in the compartment's crossCompartmentWrappers map) and we won't mark enough things if there are cross compartment references outside of that map.
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# [14:29] <gabor> mrbkap: hmmm... alright I will ask him when he comes online about this, this is only a weakref by the way, I'm not sure if that makes a difference... and also jimb states that the Debugger does something like this
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# [14:29] * gabor wants to be able to shift between timezones
# [14:31] <chewey> gabor: What's holding you back?
# [14:32] <evilpie> $export TZ=Europe/London works for me
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# [14:33] <gabor> chewey: the flux capacitor is jammed in my time machine...
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# [14:39] <chewey> gabor: Ah, so you want to change time without travelling. Yeah, that's slightly more tricky.
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# [14:46] <Cwiiis> mats, ping?
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# [14:47] <mats> pong
# [14:47] <Cwiiis> mats, seems bug 722325 has regressed :(
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# [14:48] <mounir> edmorley: sorry, I was having lunch
# [14:48] <edmorley> mounir: np :-)
# [14:49] <Cwiiis> mats, I assume that UpdateOverflow doesn't work correctly with respect to transforms in some way, but I don't have the knowledge to easily track that problem - is there anyone we can assign this bug to?
# [14:50] <Ms2ger> firebot, uuid?
# [14:50] <firebot> 23bd0a76-a5dc-4a1d-be76-13d7a0dfd9ff (/msg firebot cid for CID form)
# [14:50] <mats> Cwiiis: hmm, it looked fine on my device when I tested the Try build...
# [14:50] <glazou> why is <xul:image> unable to honour |max-width: 250px; height: auto| just like <html:img> when there is no extra constraint...
# [14:50] <mats> Cwiiis: do you have STR?
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# [14:51] <mats> Cwiiis: I'll look into it right now, but I need to know what to look for
# [14:51] <Cwiiis> mats, yes, go to m.wired.com and fling the page downwards - you'll see duplicated parts of the page, which then fill in with the correct part a short while after
# [14:51] <Cwiiis> mats, it seems to manifest particularly badly on m.wired.com for some reason, but I see it on every page
# [14:51] <Cwiiis> mats, on other pages, it manifests as a blank white area before the page fills in
# [14:52] <Cwiiis> mats, if it helps, I can record a video
# [14:52] <mats> Cwiiis: thanks, I
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# [14:53] <mats> Cwiiis: thanks, I'll try those STR...
# [14:53] <Cwiiis> k
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# [14:53] <froydnj> can I mark bugs as checkin-needed to get patches landed on aurora?
# [14:53] <mounir> froydnj: yes
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# [14:53] <mounir> froydnj: mark the patch as checkin? too
# [14:53] <mounir> so it will be clearer if there are multiple patches
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# [14:55] <edmorley> mak, mbrubeck: I'm holding off merging inbound until the cause of missing builds/tests found
# [14:56] <edmorley> plus as of the last half dozen pushes, Android looks even more flaky
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# [14:56] <mak> edmorley: ok, didn't notice missing builds... maybe cause they miss
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# [15:01] <edmorley> mak: Android looks worrying, https://tbpl.mozilla.org/?tree=Mozilla-Inbound&jobname=Android (plus no tests on last green push)
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# [15:01] <mak> I see
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# [15:06] <froydnj> mounir: thanks!
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# [15:08] * bhearsum is looking into the missing builds/tests
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# [15:11] <bhearsum> so, self serve found edmorley's leak test build without issue: https://build.mozilla.org/buildapi/self-serve/mozilla-inbound/build/8688430
# [15:11] <bhearsum> which points the finger strongly in TBPL's direction
# [15:11] <bhearsum> does anyone know if TBPL got a code update in the past 24h?
# [15:11] <edmorley> yup
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# [15:12] <edmorley> bug 725220
# [15:13] <bhearsum> http://hg.mozilla.org/users/mstange_themasta.com/tinderboxpushlog/rev/27c901950707 looks suspicious
# [15:13] <bhearsum> i'm not sure if that's a new thing though
# [15:13] <bhearsum> hmm
# [15:13] <bhearsum> it only pulled 2 changesets, so probably not
# [15:14] <edmorley> the pull to prod pulled http://hg.mozilla.org/users/mstange_themasta.com/tinderboxpushlog/rev/61b49334bc31 and http://hg.mozilla.org/users/mstange_themasta.com/tinderboxpushlog/rev/f86f3e6360af
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# [15:14] <edmorley> yeah
# [15:14] <bhearsum> yeah, damn
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# [15:15] <bhearsum> i wonder if self serve feeds off that new location too or not
# [15:15] <edmorley> the missing android tests aren't in buildapi I don't think? (which is why I didn't associate it with tbpl earlier)
# [15:15] <bhearsum> let's see...
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# [15:16] <bhearsum> edmorley: for your push?
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# [15:17] <edmorley> bhearsum: yeah; though I can see them there now (presume either I typo'd the search term or else they've appeared since perhaps)
# [15:17] <edmorley> (sorry!)
# [15:18] <bhearsum> oh
# [15:18] <bhearsum> yeah, i see them too
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# [15:19] <edmorley> in build api at least, which means perhaps the new location is to blame?
# [15:19] <bhearsum> it's possible...
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# [15:19] <bhearsum> i'm trying to find out where buildapi/self-serve gets its data from
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# [15:22] <bhearsum> oh, lol, it gets it straight from the database, not the json files
# [15:22] <bhearsum> so that really makes me think that the json files are busted
# [15:22] <edmorley> :-)
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# [15:23] <suaybe> Hello everyone. First of all my English may be a bit poor. My question is; i want to make excel like tables in html so i want to know where is the table rendering code in firefox code tree, i will work on it
# [15:24] <Callek> ted, bsmedberg: sooo btw, how are we looking with breakpad/MSVC2010 and are we planning a "backout MSVC2010 switch" if the breakpad [or is it technically socorro] side doesn't pan out well
# [15:24] <Callek> s/pan out well/play out to be resolved soon/
# [15:25] <@ted> i don't have a fix in hand
# [15:25] <@ted> i've been investigating it
# [15:26] <@smaug> suaybe: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/layout/tables/
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# [15:27] <suaybe> smaug, thanks for your helping
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# [15:28] <glazou> do we have an official trick to make image elements only load image resources when they need, ie usually when they appear in the viewport ?
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# [15:29] <bhearsum> edmorley: sorry, i'm still not sure what's going on, but i have to drop my wife off now - i'll bbiab
# [15:29] <@ted> glazou: not that i've heard of, but there must be a popular content script to do that, since i see it on webpages all the time now
# [15:29] <glazou> yes that's why I am wondering
# [15:29] <glazou> I have a use case in xul :-)
# [15:29] <jesup> huffingtonpost does it (though it's bad in many other ways)
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# [15:30] * @smaug wonders what is huffingtonpost. He has seen it mentioned often lately. Maybe some not-very-bad news site
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# [15:31] <glazou> it's a newpaper refusing to pay journalists and hence calling them bloggers
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# [15:31] <@ted> smaug: it's not very good
# [15:31] <evilpie> "The Huffington Post, also referred to as HuffPo or HuffPost, is a liberal/progressive American news website and aggregated blog founded..."
# [15:31] <@ted> it's mostly gossip and shoddy reporting
# [15:31] <glazou> the french edition is a piece of crap
# [15:31] <@ted> but very popular, because people like gossip and shoddy reporting
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# [15:36] <glazou> probably based on scrollHeight and the image's position
# [15:37] <jesup> Just don't leave an article open in FF if it's about any type of popular topic that might get tweeted about: Bug 707063 -- amazing a page that can cause 12-second pauses on a fast XEON
# [15:38] <@smaug> jesup: does that happen with trunk builds?
# [15:38] <glazou> ted: ah found it http://www.appelsiini.net/projects/lazyload
# [15:38] <@ted> ah
# [15:38] <jesup> smaug: yes, or it did last time I let it set
# [15:38] <@smaug> jesup: oh, not CC nor GC
# [15:38] <jesup> s/set/sit/
# [15:38] <@smaug> interesting
# [15:39] <jesup> Scrolling the twitter list
# [15:40] <jesup> And they've had this bug since at least last spring
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# [15:42] <jesup> At least the ad they occasionally served with a 16megapixel-wide dotted border is gone - caused 2m lockups (bug 635972)
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# [15:46] <Callek> jesup: why *wouldn't* an ad need 16 megapixel wide custom dotted border?
# [15:48] <jesup> Sorry, missed a few zeros. 1.6gigapixels. 16megapixels is child's play
# [15:48] <josh> SPDY is on by default in the current nightly build.
# [15:49] <jesup> josh: \o/
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# [15:52] <@ted> argh
# [15:52] <@ted> phew
# [15:52] <@ted> i thought i lost a blog post i was writing because firefox crashed
# [15:53] <@ted> but wordpress saved a draft
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# [15:53] <@khuey> glazou: nice blog post
# [15:53] <@khuey> I disagree with a lot of it
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# [15:53] <@ted> when i restored, the post was empty
# [15:53] <@khuey> but it's still a good read
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# [15:55] <AryehGregor> roc, . . . not that I'm disagreeing, but what exactly rocks about me?
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# [15:58] <@khuey> LOL
# [15:58] <@khuey> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3570734
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# [16:02] <@ted> that's a pretty nonsensical reply
# [16:02] <@khuey> indeed
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# [16:03] <Ms2ger> ted, welcome to the web
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# [16:06] <bhearsum> edmorley: back
# [16:06] <@ted> heh
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# [16:07] <stransky> glandium, hi, is there a bug for the gcc 4.7 build failures? i mean the missing headers
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# [16:08] <glandium> stransky: not that i'm aware of
# [16:08] <stransky> glandium, ahh, okay, I'll file it then
# [16:08] <Ms2ger> mounir, yt?
# [16:08] <bhearsum> has anyone noticed any missing jobs on trees other than Mozilla-Inbound?
# [16:09] <mounir> Ms2ger: yes
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# [16:09] <Ms2ger> mounir, do you remember off-hand what function to call for "parsing that attribute's value using the rules for parsing non-negative integers"
# [16:09] <Ms2ger> ?
# [16:10] <mounir> Ms2ger: ParseNonNegativeIntValue ?
# [16:10] <mounir> in nsAttrValue
# [16:10] <mounir> I think
# [16:10] <Ms2ger> Thanks
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# [16:18] <bhearsum> edmorley: i filed https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=725654 on this issue
# [16:18] <bhearsum> i'm still not sure wth is going on though :(
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# [16:22] <gcp> khuey: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3571401 :P
# [16:22] <AryehGregor> Hmm -- so what's level 2 commit access good for? The page on commit access doesn't give any examples I see of things it actually lets you do.
# [16:23] <@khuey> AryehGregor: it's not terribly useful
# [16:23] <@khuey> almost everybody goes from L1 to L3
# [16:25] <@khuey> gcp: no point in reasoning with that guy ;-)
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# [16:25] <@ted> AryehGregor: if you work on things that aren't in mozilla-central, i guess it's useful
# [16:26] <@ted> other hg repos that aren't branches from m-c
# [16:26] <Callek> AryehGregor: L2 is mostly in cases where you are working on a specific project branch, or a separate project entirely and you're not yet able to get a L3
# [16:26] <Callek> ted: a m-c branched project branch can have L2 contribs, iirc, as long as it gets a final review before merging back to m-c
# [16:26] <@ted> can it? i thought we decided that wasn't feasible
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# [16:27] <Callek> ted: if we did decide that -- its news to me [not discounting the possibility though]
# [16:27] <AryehGregor> Also: at what point is it customary to request L3 commit access? Like should I wait until I've submitted a whole bunch more code? I know several module owners/peers pretty well.
# [16:27] <@ted> AryehGregor: it's a judgement call
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# [16:28] <@ted> if you've had some patches landed and you can convince a few module owners/peers to vouch for you, then go for it
# [16:28] <@khuey> ted: js used to do that
# [16:28] <@khuey> at least in theory
# [16:28] <@ted> i thought we changed that though
# [16:28] <@ted> can't remember
# [16:28] <Callek> AryehGregor: generally I would think, if checkin-needed is getting anoying for you, then its probably about time you request it
# [16:28] <NeilAway> !seen darktrojan
# [16:28] <firebot> darktrojan was last seen 3 hours, 4 minutes and 33 seconds ago, saying '\o/' in #developers.
# [16:28] <Callek> if you think you have enough history in your contribs and have a few module owners/peers who would vouch, its probably ok as well
# [16:29] <Callek> if you doubt you did enough *and* you have no problem with the checkin-needed *and* no module owners/peers have already suggested you apply for L3, then its probably too early ;-)
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# [16:30] <Callek> (no problem to mean "it has not frustrated me", "I still get my patches landed very fast", and "I don't feel like I'm bothering others much") kind of things
# [16:31] <AryehGregor> Okay.
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# [16:31] <AryehGregor> Then I'll wait a while longer, I guess.
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# [16:32] <AryehGregor> I mean, I've only submitted like less than ten patches and have been working for Mozilla for a little over a month, but there are some module owners/peers who have known me for years via standards lists and might have no problem vouching for me.
# [16:33] <@khuey> vouching is fundamentally a statement about trust in an individual (to follow tree rules, etc), not a statement of trust in their code (that's what the review process is for)
# [16:33] <AryehGregor> Right.
# [16:33] <@khuey> so if there are module owners that have known you for years and are willing to vouch for you
# [16:33] * @khuey sees nothing wrong with that
# [16:34] <@ted> yeah
# [16:34] <@ted> i agree
# [16:35] <@ted> the number of patches thing is just a heuristic for "i trust this person to follow the rules"
# [16:35] <@khuey> right
# [16:35] <AryehGregor> bz, roc, hsivonen: Any of you think it makes sense for me to apply for L3 commit access yet, and/or are willing to vouch for me? Or does it make sense for me to wait a while longer?
# [16:35] <@ted> roc is probably sleeping
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# [16:38] * froydnj is completely baffled as to how to run individual mochitests
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# [16:39] <Ms2ger> make TEST_PATH=pathfromsrcdir mochitest-plain
# [16:39] <@ted> yes, that
# [16:39] <@ted> you can do it with a filename, but it's...quirky
# [16:39] <froydnj> from $(OBJDIR)?
# [16:39] <Ms2ger> Yep
# [16:39] <@ted> you're better off with a directory
# [16:39] <Ms2ger> And someone had a script
# [16:39] <froydnj> hm, that's not working
# [16:39] <@ted> (with a filename you don't get the logging etc)
# [16:40] <j-b> bsmedberg: are you around? I have questions regarding OOPP for plugins and I was told to ask you.
# [16:40] <froydnj> for e.g. TEST_PATH=browser/modules
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# [16:40] <froydnj> it tells me /tests/browser/modules was not found
# [16:40] <Ms2ger> You didn't disable tests?
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# [16:41] <@khuey> s/mochitest-plain/mochitest-browser-chrome/
# [16:41] <@bsmedberg> j-b: I am, but I'm in the middle of a debugging session so responses may be kinda slow
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# [16:42] <froydnj> aha, thanks khuery
# [16:42] <froydnj> er
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# [16:43] <froydnj> how do you know when to use mochitest-plain and mochitest-browser-chrome?
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# [16:43] <Ms2ger> Ask khuey
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# [16:44] <@khuey> look at the tests, if they start with 'browser_' they're browser-chrome tests
# [16:45] <mounir> froydnj: otherwise, look at the corresponding Makefile.in and see where they are declared
# [16:45] <mounir> froydnj: but browser-chrome or js files
# [16:45] <mounir> while mochitest-plain are html files
# [16:45] <mounir> IIRC
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# [16:48] <froydnj> mounir: khuey: thanks
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# [16:51] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/fe7a433de8ff - Chris Lord - Bug 722325 - Revert bug 720987 for transformed frames. r=roc
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# [16:58] <jmaher> edmorley: my changeset on inbound is for android robotium, I retriggered the failed one since that error looks to be unrelated
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# [16:58] <Yoric> Gasp, Bugzilla is frozen for a few minutes.
# [16:58] * Yoric wonders how he will survive for these few minutes.
# [16:58] <glob> Yoric, wfm
# [16:58] <Yoric> « Bug Updates Temporarily Suspended »
# [16:58] <glob> Yoric, that's so 30 seconds ago
# [16:58] <glob> :P
# [16:59] <Yoric> :)
# [16:59] <Yoric> Anyway, I deserve a break :)
# [16:59] <glob> i've finished adding fields now
# [16:59] * mounir flagellates himself
# [16:59] <MarcoZ> Any recent problems building m-c on OS X Lion known? Despite cleaning out all the config caches, build started barfing at me that the host compiler gcc-4.2 does not work. No changes to my mozconfig or the like. It just barfs.
# [16:59] <mounir> failed three times in a row to export a patch queue from a local repo to local m-i :-/
# [17:01] <AopicieR> edmorley: hi, I just wanted to say thank you very much for checking in my patches for 512529 :)
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# [17:04] <edmorley> bhearsum: sorry was on a work call; thank you for filing that and looking into it :-)
# [17:04] <Yoric> glob: thanks :)
# [17:05] <bhearsum> edmorley: np
# [17:05] <edmorley> jmaher: yeah I saw that error yesterday I think, not sure if it's been filed yet
# [17:05] <Yoric> MarcoZ: When did you last pull?
# [17:05] <Yoric> If you want, I can try.
# [17:05] <j-b> bsmedberg: ok. VLC Web Plugin is blacklisted against OOPP on Linux, because it uses Xt/Xpm. Most of the plugin was rewritten in the next version to use either xcb or gtk, and therefore not Xt anymore. However, the blacklist is name.so-based, not version-based. What should we do? Rename the plugin? Wait and blacklist all versions in a few months? Something else?
# [17:05] <edmorley> AopicieR: that's ok - you are most welcome :-)
# [17:05] <jmaher> edmorley: I will see what it does, it looked like the tests ran fine, just lost connectivity (joy)
# [17:05] <MarcoZ> Yoric: right before I wanted to build a few minutes ago.
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# [17:05] <MarcoZ> Yoric: Like 10-15 minutes ago.
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# [17:06] <edmorley> jmaher: Anroid tests losing connectivity, whatever next!
# [17:06] <Yoric> I will pull and build.
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# [17:11] <gandalf> hsivonen: ping
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# [17:11] <gandalf> hsivonen: for L20n resources in HTML, we use <link href="./path.l20n" type="intl/l20n"/>
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# [17:11] <gandalf> hsivonen: should we use different type (application/l10n? or can we stick to intl/sth?) and what about rel="" ?
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# [17:16] <MarcoZ> Yoric: Hm, it no longer seems to like the "build" statement in make -f client.mk. If I omit that, a build starts.
# [17:17] <Yoric> MarcoZ: ah, I assumed that your problem only appeared further in the build process.
# [17:17] <Yoric> I am currently building and I have not hit any issue yet.
# [17:17] <MarcoZ> Yoric: No, it would have you bitten within the first 5 seconds.
# [17:17] <MarcoZ> Yoric: A build is running here now, too.
# [17:17] <Yoric> In that case, WFM.
# [17:17] <Yoric> But I do not use "build".
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# [17:17] <Yoric> That is, I do not use target "build".
# [17:18] <@bsmedberg> j-b: well, we could possibly hardcode a better decision in
# [17:19] <@bsmedberg> j-b: or you could rename it... that's kinda up to you, I guess
# [17:19] <@bsmedberg> j-b: if you provided a patch which was version-based I'd take ikt
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# [17:20] <j-b> bsmedberg: we plan to ask for a blacklist of older plugins for many reasons (notably security), in the future. Does it change anything?
# [17:21] <@bsmedberg> if we just blacklisted the old versions, then I think we can just remove that setting entirely
# [17:21] <@bsmedberg> the old ones will be blocked, and the new ones will work correctly OOPP
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# [17:24] <j-b> bsmedberg: I do not really care. What do you advise?
# [17:24] <@bsmedberg> j-b: if we're going to blocklist the old versions, we'll remove the OOPP check at the same time
# [17:24] <@bsmedberg> I don't think there's much else we need to do in that case
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# [17:25] <j-b> bsmedberg: ok. So I'll wait for a few months after the release and ask the removal of the OOPP check and at the same time the blacklisting.
# [17:25] <j-b> bsmedberg: many thanks.
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# [17:31] <jwir3> vingtetun: ping?
# [17:32] <vingtetun> jwir3: pong
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# [17:32] <jwir3> vingtetun: Sorry I led you astray yesterday with bug 725485
# [17:32] <vingtetun> no worries
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# [17:33] <jwir3> vingtetun: It's even worse because I made that change to column-fill. :0
# [17:33] <vingtetun> i figure out that -moz-column-fill is the solution and that's all i was looking for :)
# [17:33] <jwir3> ok, cool ;)
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# [17:34] <vingtetun> but thanks for taking care :)
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# [17:34] <jwir3> vingtetun: Just to clarify what roc was saying, the spec changed after nsColumnSetFrame (our implementation) was developed
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# [17:35] <jwir3> vingtetun: And, during development of the changeset you pointed out, it became clear that a height-limited column box wasn't going to make sense if column-fill was enabled
# [17:35] <jwir3> vingtetun: In other words, if the height wasn't limited, column-fill wouldn't do anything.
# [17:35] <jwir3> so we made that change.
# [17:36] <vingtetun> ok. it clearer now.
# [17:36] <vingtetun> the change make senses to me but yesterday i was surprised
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# [17:36] <jwir3> heh, you and me both, and I made tha change! heh
# [17:36] <glazou> do we have some sort of scroll event fired when the use scrolls into an "overflow: auto" element ?
# [17:36] <glazou> the user
# [17:37] <@bsmedberg> mounir: red on your inbound push?
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# [17:38] <mounir> again? :(
# [17:38] <mounir> lemme check
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# [17:40] <philor> well, looks like it built on Linux, it just won't run there, so you've got that going for you
# [17:40] <@bsmedberg> heh
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# [17:42] <@bsmedberg> Oh god, I totally screwed up the bug numbers for my commit
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# [17:48] <bjacob> anyone got a copy of mathematica handy and can run a command for me?
# [17:49] <glazou> aaah onscroll works there
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# [18:08] <jwatt> glazou: isn't trying to get the whole web to update their pages like a dead cert', 100% lost cause?
# [18:08] <jwatt> I'd think the only way that could possibly happen is if vendors removed their prefixed versions of things as soon as they support the unprefixed thing - make them real "this is experimental and *will* die" prefixes
# [18:09] <jwatt> if vendors leave them around, so will web devs
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# [18:09] <glazou> that's well possible
# [18:09] <glazou> but making all web authors' community upset by browser vendors' attitude is not a lost cause
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# [18:10] <glazou> and I had to try anyway
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# [18:10] <bholley> josh: ping
# [18:10] <josh> bholley: hi
# [18:10] <glazou> I just cannot accept using the last resort solution w/o trying _everything_ else before
# [18:10] <@bz> glazou: I don't think you understand
# [18:11] <glazou> shoot then
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# [18:11] <@bz> glazou: we've spent quite a long time trying to convince web authors to stop doing this
# [18:11] <glazou> I know that
# [18:11] <@bz> glazou: including ones who should know better, like Google
# [18:11] <glazou> again, I know that
# [18:11] <@bz> glazou: they have flat-out refused
# [18:11] <bholley> josh: so I've had this longstanding problem with gdb-ing firefox on OSX where it totally b0rks my UI if I leave it in a debugger for more than 20 seconds or so. My understanding as of 2 years ago is that this is a known and unsolved problem, but I thought I'd ask if you'd found any way to solve it
# [18:11] <@bz> glazou: So I'm not sure how making them "upset by browser vendors' attitude" will help matters
# [18:11] <glazou> and you think that Mozilla, herald of the Open Web manifesto, will get a good PR out of implementing -webkit-* ?
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# [18:12] <glazou> just asking
# [18:12] <@bz> glazou: At this point we'll get better PR out of "can use gmail on mobile Firefox" than the PR loss, if any, from the other
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# [18:12] <bholley> josh: or rather, if I leave it in a debugger and kill it without letting it shut down gracefully
# [18:12] <glazou> fair enough
# [18:12] <@bz> glazou: esp. because we've made it clear that we have tried all other avenues and failed
# [18:12] <gcp> There's a nice post form Opera saying pretty much the same.
# [18:12] <@bz> glazou: and that the situation is basically like IE6 in 2001, and hence we need similar tools
# [18:12] <glazou> bz: Mozilla makes it thinks important for its survival
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# [18:13] <glazou> I make what I think is important for the web
# [18:13] <@bz> glazou: well
# [18:13] <@bz> glazou: to some extent, yes
# [18:13] <josh> bholley: I don't have a solution for that, smichaud (he's in #macdev) might have more info.
# [18:13] <@bz> glazou: but let me posit that a perpetual WebKit monoculture is worse for the web than de-facto standardizing a small number of -webkit CSS properties
# [18:13] <glazou> from that perspective, Opera Microsoft and Mozilla can disappear from the web ; would be terribly unfortunate but the web won't go away
# [18:13] <bholley> josh: ok - you know the issue I'm talking about though?
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# [18:13] <josh> yes, I know it
# [18:13] <@bz> glazou: you may, of course, disagree
# [18:14] <bholley> josh: ok, thanks
# [18:14] <@smaug> if webkit was playing nicely, it would actually remove prefixed properties at some point
# [18:14] <glazou> I do disagree
# [18:14] <glazou> smaug: ah, that, I agree with 100%
# [18:14] <@bz> glazou: I think that every non-WebKit vendor disappearing would be a strictly worse outcome than the other
# [18:14] <glazou> we're here because Apple does not play nicely with web standards
# [18:14] <@bz> glazou: because then you get de-facto standardization of _everything_ webkit does
# [18:14] <@bz> glazou: as opposed to a just a few things
# [18:14] <glazou> bz: vacation for me, finally ;-)
# [18:14] <@smaug> for some strange reason webkit isn't willing to do that.
# [18:15] <@bz> smaug: it's the same reason MS never removes stuff
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# [18:15] <@bz> smaug: they care about all sorts of non-web deployments too much
# [18:15] <@smaug> well, webkit is still open source project...
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# [18:15] <glazou> smaug: yes ?
# [18:16] <glazou> what's your idea ?
# [18:16] <@smaug> and I would expect some of the members in the webkit community care about the web
# [18:16] <@bz> smaug: maybe
# [18:16] <glazou> the weight of apple in webkit is too big
# [18:16] <glazou> for that, I mean
# [18:16] <@bz> google too, fwiw
# [18:16] <glazou> less
# [18:16] <@bz> yes
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# [18:16] <@bz> but they're often on the same side on this
# [18:16] <glazou> in terms of market share, agreed
# [18:16] <glazou> in terms of code ?
# [18:16] <@bz> apple more so than Google, but....
# [18:17] <@bz> anyway
# [18:17] <@bz> I'll believe it when I see Google fix its web propertie
# [18:17] <@bz> er, properties
# [18:17] <glazou> eh
# [18:17] <@bz> until then, I don't see much changing in terms of the competitive landscape
# [18:18] * rshetty_away is now known as rshetty
# [18:18] <@bz> (Google won't be _sufficient_, obviously, but it's at least necessary)
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# [18:18] <glazou> when we asked our old friend smfr (used to work at Netscape) to bring back a tech proposal for text-size-adjust; answer was not yes but as usual 'I'll see what I can do)
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# [18:19] <@bz> yes
# [18:19] <@bz> because they can never commit to anything publicly
# [18:19] <glazou> and apparently it triggered some heat at apple because I misunderstood that
# [18:19] <glazou> and said he said yes
# [18:19] <@bz> heh
# [18:19] <glazou> meaning Apple HQ is probably NOT willing to standardize that because they have IP on it
# [18:19] <@bz> I would not be surprised if Apple views the details of text-size-adjust as a competitive advantage
# [18:19] <glazou> they do
# [18:19] <@bz> and is actively against standardizing it
# [18:19] <@bz> right
# [18:20] <@bz> I would also not be surprised if they view transforms and so forth the same way
# [18:20] <@bz> even if Dino doesn't
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# [18:20] <@smaug> (Apple is also actively preventing standardizing touch events :/ )
# [18:20] <glazou> transforms are already in the css wg so patent disclosure happened
# [18:20] <glazou> text-size-adjust never hit the wg...
# [18:20] <glazou> so their IPR still stand 100%
# [18:21] <glazou> and they probably can't leave them to be able to counter samsung google and others on that front
# [18:21] <@bz> glazou: sure, the patent thing is a separate issue
# [18:21] <@bz> glazou: but Apple's interests still lay in not standardizing the other stuff, really
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# [18:23] <glazou> I start infortunately agreeing with that, day after day
# [18:23] <glazou> unfortunately even
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# [18:26] <gavin> Apple has no incentive to standardize anything, really
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# [18:27] <gavin> and web developers don't hve much reason to care about the open web, if the mobile web is effectively webkit
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# [18:27] <glazou> remember a company does not exist to please the community of its challengers
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# [18:28] <jwatt> glazou: so it seems, like bz said, as if we either do nothing and head further down the webkit monoculture on mobile (full de-facto webkit world), or we de-facto standardize a small number of -webkit CSS properties
# [18:28] <gavin> twitter calls to action are quite unlikely to change that, IMO
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# [18:29] <jwatt> it doesn't make any sense to me that you would disagree that the latter option is the better of two evils
# [18:30] <glazou> again, I always said I understand perfectly the diagnosis AND the proposed solution
# [18:30] <glazou> I just want to try everything I can before
# [18:30] <glazou> just in case it works
# [18:30] <glazou> even if we have little hope
# [18:30] <glazou> even...
# [18:30] <glazou> it IS worth trying
# [18:30] <sheppy> FWIW glazou, I'm with you on that. It's worth trying.
# [18:30] <glazou> thanks sheppy
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# [18:31] <glazou> and if it fails, at least we can say "we tried"
# [18:31] <glazou> and we tried on a large scale
# [18:31] <jwatt> ok, fair enough
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# [18:31] <sheppy> On a related note, I think we need someone whose job it is to do mobile web evangelism, with things like this part of that job.
# [18:32] <glazou> because honestly, that will be the most shameful failure in my tenure as csswg cochair
# [18:32] <glazou> sheppy: 10000000% agreed
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# [18:32] <jwatt> some of us have already got tho the point of feeling "we tried" though
# [18:32] <glazou> you did not try in public
# [18:32] <@khuey> if we can't get another vendor to fix their own mobile site, what chance do we have of convincing everyone else?
# [18:32] <sheppy> Web devs need to know webkit isn't all there is.
# [18:32] <glazou> nor in the press
# [18:32] <mfinkle> sheppy, in that meeting now...
# [18:32] <sheppy> mfinkle++
# [18:33] <glazou> anyway, I have code on the fire
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# [18:33] <@khuey> the problem with us complaining in the press about this is that people will say that we're just whining about having no market share
# [18:33] <@khuey> we've had the same problem in the past complaining about bogus perf tests
# [18:33] <@khuey> "you're just whining because you're slow"
# [18:33] <@khuey> etc
# [18:33] <@bz> sheppy: "someone"?
# [18:34] <glazou> khuey: Mozilla Manifesto says nothing about market share, it says stuff about preserving the Open Web
# [18:34] <@bz> sheppy: Opera has two dozen full-time people on mobile evangelism
# [18:34] <@bz> sheppy: it's not getting them anywhere
# [18:34] <mounir> edmorley: I appreciate your calm even you had to backout me two times :)
# [18:34] <sheppy> bz: I know, and we have nobody.
# [18:34] <@bz> sheppy: we've had evangelism teams before. results were .... mixed
# [18:34] <sheppy> bz: Opera failed at it first?
# [18:34] <glazou> sheppy: on mobile ?
# [18:34] <@khuey> glazou: preserving the open web is not an all or nothing proposition
# [18:34] <@bz> we have direct lines of communication with some mobile website owners
# [18:34] <@bz> and have asked them to fix their sites
# [18:34] <@bz> and they just flat-out refuse
# [18:35] <glazou> khuey: it depends where you see it from
# [18:35] <@bz> it's not clear to me how having a full-time evangelism team would help that
# [18:35] <@bz> it's not like we're not reaching these people
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# [18:35] <jwatt> glazou: if everyone ceeds their market share to webkit then there is no open web - having some market share is very much a key part of keeping the web open
# [18:35] <@bz> they just don't want to make the change
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# [18:35] <edmorley> mounir: no problem, these things happen :-)
# [18:35] * @bz tries to log into devmo, runs into the usual browserid fuckup
# [18:35] <sheppy> Let's add code to Firefox that puts up a "this site is run by losers" banner whenever webkit stuff is used without the corresponding moz prefixes as well. :)
# [18:35] <glazou> guys, dinner time approaches in Europe and if I want to eat something tonight, I'd better find a food store now ; have a good evening all
# [18:36] <jwatt> haha
# [18:36] <gcp> sheppy++
# [18:36] <@bz> sheppy: it's tempting sometimes
# [18:36] <@bz> glazou: have a good night!
# [18:36] <glazou> sheppy: I could live with that :-)
# [18:36] <@khuey> glazou: night
# [18:36] <jwatt> glazou: enjoy
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# [18:36] <sheppy> glazou: I'm only partly kidding too.
# [18:36] * @bz dives into fixing docs, hopelessly
# [18:36] * @khuey attempts to back out 497995 and all of its followups
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# [18:36] <sheppy> bz: the dev team is working on those BrowserID problems.
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# [18:36] <mounir> edmorley: nice things is those things happen when you don't send stuff to try :)
# [18:36] <@smaug> ++sheppy
# [18:36] <edmorley> ha, true :-)
# [18:37] <@bz> sheppy: yeah, I know
# [18:37] <@bz> khuey: er?
# [18:37] <@khuey> bz: dbaron wants to back it out from aurora since we didn't finish it
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# [18:38] <froydnj> why does the autoland bot attempt to land on m-c rather than m-i?
# [18:38] <lsblakk> it doesn't land on either
# [18:38] <@bz> khuey: fun
# [18:38] <froydnj> so we can be sure the tree is in a semi-sane state?
# [18:38] <lsblakk> it only pushes to try right now froydnj
# [18:38] <@khuey> bz: yeah
# [18:39] * @khuey wonders if he should just finish that stuff so that he doesn't have to back it out again
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# [18:39] <edmorley> froydnj: waiting on Linux64 PGO (https://tbpl.mozilla.org/?tree=Mozilla-Inbound&rev=c4c7eaaeec91) and I'll be merging inbound from that cset
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# [18:39] <froydnj> lsblakk: then what's the "Branch: mozilla-central => try" bit in the autoland message?
# [18:39] <lsblakk> it pulled mozilla-central and applied your patches
# [18:40] <lsblakk> then pushed to try
# [18:40] <lsblakk> we would not pull m-i
# [18:40] <froydnj> edmorley: thanks, saw your note in 720456
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# [18:40] <froydnj> sorry, "land" was not precise enough, maybe "use m-c as the base for the try server"?
# [18:40] <edmorley> (it's been going 5 and a half hours... :-s)
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# [18:41] <edmorley> 4 even
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# [18:41] <@bz> sheppy: how much documentation do we have on devmo that talks about CSS3 flexbox stuff?
# [18:41] <dholbert> do we have any?
# [18:42] <@bz> we have some
# [18:42] <@khuey> how does one back out multiple non-consecutive csets in a single cset?
# [18:42] <@bz> or rather
# [18:42] <@bz> we have some that claims that -moz-box is css3 flexbox
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# [18:42] * @bz is fixing one instance
# [18:42] <sheppy> Not much if any. I wasn't aware flexbox had hit.
# [18:42] <@bz> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/CSS/box-flex to be exact
# [18:42] <dholbert> sheppy, hasn't yet
# [18:42] <edmorley> khuey: use the script at https://wiki.mozilla.org/User:Mak77
# [18:42] <@bz> sheppy: btw, the fact that I can't view a document while editing it is REALLY ANNOYING
# [18:42] <@bz> sheppy: is there a bug on that?
# [18:42] <sheppy> Is the relevant bug or bugs dev-doc-needed?
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# [18:43] <sheppy> bz: what do you mean? A preview?
# [18:43] <edmorley> and: |backout <csetA> <csetF> <csetP:csetR> <csetZ>| etc
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# [18:43] <sheppy> Having a real preview is coming in Kuma.
# [18:43] <edmorley> it sorts the order out for you
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# [18:43] <dholbert> khuey, alternately, hg diff -r $LASTBAD -r $LASTGOOD | hg qimport - -n backout
# [18:43] <@khuey> edmorley: woah
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# [18:45] <@bz> sheppy: no
# [18:45] <bhearsum> philor: i don't suppose you have any inkling about what could be causing https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=725654, do you?
# [18:45] <@bsmedberg> Why do webpages need to be able to call window.stop() ?
# [18:45] <@bsmedberg> can we just disable it?
# [18:45] <@bz> sheppy: I just want to see the page as actually rendered while editing it
# [18:45] <@bz> sheppy: and devmo won't let me
# [18:45] <bhearsum> philor: any chance that the TBPL update from last night messed something up?
# [18:45] * @bz had to start a second browser to do it
# [18:45] <sheppy> We're going to be starting to prioritize more on importance of features soon rather than what release they're in, btw.
# [18:46] <@bz> sheppy: Basically, I want to see the pre-edits page and the thing I'm editing, alongside
# [18:46] <edmorley> khuey: it leaves you with an applied mq of backout.diff, ready to hg qfin-a && hg push after inspection
# [18:46] <sheppy> bz: ah. Interesting.
# [18:46] <@bz> sheppy: in this case because the thing I'm editing has links and I need one of those URLs
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# [18:46] <@bz> sheppy: and getting it out of the edit view is a huge pain
# [18:46] <sheppy> Is it? Huh.
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# [18:46] <sheppy> I'll put that on our wish list.
# [18:47] <edmorley> khuey: it also puts bug numbers in the commit message, not just cset
# [18:47] <@bz> sheppy: because they aren't actually links in the edit view, so I can't just right-click and copy link url
# [18:47] <philor> bhearsum: there wasn't a tbpl update last night, not that I know of anyway
# [18:47] <sheppy> bz: ah, gotcha.
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# [18:47] <edmorley> philor: bug 725220 surely?
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# [18:47] <@khuey> edmorley: wow
# [18:47] <bhearsum> oh, that was 24h earlier than i thought
# [18:48] <bhearsum> damn
# [18:48] <sheppy> Some of these problems are more issues with the editor in Firefox than with MindTouch, I think.
# [18:48] <@bz> e.g.
# [18:48] <@bz> we apparently have docs on box-pack
# [18:48] <philor> bhearsum: and, um, what's missing from that rev in the bug? I see a linux32 B
# [18:48] * @bz wonders how much of today he can afford to spend on fixing up the mess. :(
# [18:48] <bhearsum> o rly?
# [18:48] <bhearsum> huh
# [18:48] <bhearsum> it has filled out
# [18:49] <bhearsum> maybe cruncher was just megaslow generating json...
# [18:49] <edmorley> philor: though timezone differences may be getting the better of me
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# [18:49] <bhearsum> well, that's good
# [18:49] <@bz> sheppy: so here's a question
# [18:49] <@bz> sheppy: we have https://developer.mozilla.org/en/CSS/box-flex
# [18:49] * jlebar|away is now known as jlebar
# [18:49] <@bz> sheppy: there is no "box-flex" CSS property, and there won't be one
# [18:50] <@bz> sheppy: there's -moz-box-flex and -webkit-box-flex
# [18:50] <philor> edmorley: yeah, that would be "yesterday morning"
# [18:50] <@bz> sheppy: and a totally different way of doing the same thing in CSS3 flexbox
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# [18:50] <@bz> sheppy: what should the url for this page really be?
# [18:51] <sheppy> I presume the moz and webkit versions are totally diff tent?
# [18:51] <sheppy> Diff tent?
# [18:51] <sheppy> Different?
# [18:51] <sheppy> Weird autocorrect there.
# [18:51] <@bz> sheppy: they might even be the same
# [18:51] <@bz> sheppy: probably are pretty similar
# [18:51] <@bz> sheppy: of course -moz-box and -webkit-box display types are totally different....
# [18:51] <sheppy> Hm. Page should be -moz-box-flex. We can add a -webkit-box-flex page as well at some point.
# [18:52] <@bz> sheppy: so in some sense all the box stuff is totally different
# [18:52] <@bz> sheppy: ok. Can you move it?
# [18:52] <sheppy> Yeah.
# [18:52] <@bz> thanks
# [18:52] <sheppy> Will do.
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# [18:52] * @bz is fixing https://developer.mozilla.org/en/CSS/box-pack too
# [18:52] <@bz> it has the same problem
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# [18:52] <@bz> note that there may be links to these things...
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# [18:53] <sheppy> Yeah. We'll take care of it.
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# [18:54] <@bz> Thanks
# [18:54] <sheppy> Do we know when we hope to have real flexbox support?
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# [18:54] <@bz> bug says this month
# [18:54] * philor is now known as philor|away
# [18:54] <@bz> under a prefix
# [18:54] <dholbert> sheppy: that's the plan
# [18:54] <sheppy> Sure.
# [18:54] <sheppy> Ok, cool.
# [18:55] <sheppy> Bug has dev-doc-needed?
# [18:55] <dholbert> yup
# [18:55] <dholbert> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=666041
# [18:55] <sheppy> Perfect.
# [18:56] <@bz> ok
# [18:56] <@bz> I give up
# [18:56] <dholbert> someone broke bz :(
# [18:56] * @bz sees links to box-orient, box-direction, box-align
# [18:56] <@bz> all this stuff needs to be rewritten
# [18:56] * @bz finishes up box-pack and calls it a day
# [18:57] <@khuey> edmorley: cool, that mostly work
# [18:57] <@khuey> edmorley: it died qfolding stuff though due to a conflict
# [18:57] <sheppy> bz: throw the "NeedsUpdate" tag on them and someone will someday fix them.
# [18:57] <@bz> sheppy: how do I do that?
# [18:58] <sheppy> Bottom of the page, click the edit tags button and type it in the box.
# [18:58] <@bz> great
# [18:58] <sheppy> Should get suggested once you've typed a few letters.
# [18:58] <edmorley> khuey: yeah we mostly use it for more recent backouts, so that's less of an issue; think it still leaves things in a fairly resumable state
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# [18:58] <@khuey> firebot: uuid
# [18:58] <firebot> 1c7df44f-e977-4d75-893a-abc3e6c1648c (/msg firebot cid for CID form)
# [18:58] <@khuey> edmorley: yeah, I just have to fold, merge, fold, merge until the end
# [18:59] * edmorley waits for someone to say we should use git
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# [18:59] <sheppy> Hehe
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# [19:00] <jhammel> we should use perforce
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# [19:00] <sheppy> I loved using perforce.
# [19:00] * catlee-away is now known as catlee
# [19:00] <jhammel> unless your voice is dripping with sarcasm i can no longer trust anything you do ;)
# [19:00] <sheppy> Used it at every place I worked before Mozilla.
# [19:01] <Mossop> That's why you came here right?
# [19:01] <sheppy> No sarcasm, sorry. I really did like it.
# [19:01] <jhammel> :(
# [19:01] <dholbert> "Mozilla: We don't use perforce. Join us!"
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# [19:01] * jhammel takes over MDN to ensure it doesn't become perforce
# [19:01] <sheppy> I gave up long ago on trying to understand hg.
# [19:02] <sheppy> I hadn't even gotten the hang of svn when we switched to hg.
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# [19:02] <sheppy> That said, I certainly wouldn't advocate Mozilla using it. :)
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# [19:03] <dholbert> sheppy, did we have anything that switched from svn to hg?
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# [19:03] <sheppy> I meant CVS.
# [19:03] <dholbert> ah right
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# [19:04] <sheppy> I guess 10 years using perforce constantly got me used to it.
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# [19:04] <sheppy> Used it in both programming gigs and for documentation version control.
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# [19:04] <sheppy> Used to check FrameMaker docs into perforce at Palm.
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# [19:25] <gkw> mfinkle: ping
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# [19:32] <Waldo> jlebar: you can use variadic macros; just beware that if you're using them in C files you'll trigger compiler warnings currently
# [19:32] * IRCMonkey39860 is now known as timA
# [19:32] <Waldo> jlebar: we depend on variadic macro support in at least two places I'm aware of, spread across enough code that it's not happenstance that things work
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# [19:35] <Waldo> jlebar: regarding the warning, there's a patch to fix, and I am not going to elaborate as to why it's not landed yet to avoid blowing a gasket
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# [19:41] <jwatt> dholbert?
# [19:41] <dholbert> jwatt?
# [19:41] <jwatt> dholbert: see https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=614732#c45
# [19:41] * catlee is now known as catlee-afk
# [19:41] <jwatt> these tests are marked as random on mac
# [19:42] <jwatt> with a comment saying that what's really important is testing for divide by zero
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# [19:43] <jwatt> if I change the viewBox to reduce the large number to 8388607, will that still satisfy your divide by zero test?
# [19:43] <jwatt> or would you rather I mark them random on all platforms?
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# [19:43] <dholbert> jwatt, I believe those tests are Waldo's actually
# [19:43] <jwatt> oh, sorry
# [19:43] <dholbert> jwatt, where's the divide by zero comment? I opened the first one you linked to and didn't see the comment
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# [19:43] * Waldo looks
# [19:43] <jwatt> it's in the reftest.list file
# [19:43] <dholbert> ah
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# [19:45] <jduell> biesi: ping
# [19:45] * dholbert defers to Waldo on that -- I don't think I've seen those tests before
# [19:46] <dholbert> oh, I guess I have
# [19:46] <biesi> jduell, pong
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# [19:46] <jwatt> sure, I just assumed all things svg-as-image was you :)
# [19:46] <jduell> biesi: so who's reviewing cookie patches these days?
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# [19:46] <biesi> jduell, that's a good question
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# [19:47] * Waldo opens up the original bug to see if the rationale was recorded enough
# [19:47] <jduell> biesi: jdm's asked me to review bug 722850. I could probably take a whack at it, but actually haven't looked at cookies much, and don't know who's allowed to +r in that module
# [19:47] <biesi> jduell, you have my permission. :)
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# [19:48] <jduell> biesi: oh boy :)
# [19:48] <biesi> jduell, you may want to ask dwitte
# [19:48] <biesi> jduell, as in
# [19:48] <biesi> jduell, ask him if he can review / if he knows who would be good to review
# [19:48] <jduell> biesi: do you know what email/etc is best to reach him at? Not sure he's reading bugmail
# [19:49] <biesi> jduell, dwitte@gmail.com
# [19:49] <jduell> biesi: mmmK, thanks
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# [19:49] <biesi> he's also often on irc, though apparently not now...
# [19:50] <biesi> facebook messenger works, if you two are friends :)
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# [19:53] * Waldo is dredging his memory of this right now
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# [19:54] <jwatt> Waldo: yeah, I'm trying to figure out the answer to my question from the comments too
# [19:55] <Waldo> jwatt: so the fun is those tests were ones that would have failed with an earlier iteration of the patch than the one that landed
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# [19:55] * Waldo thinks the "zero" comments in the bug probably point in the right direction, but it's been awhile
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# [19:57] <jduell> biesi: got a quick question for you--have time?
# [19:57] <jlebar> Waldo, sounds good. I'm in C++, so I can keep my gaskets together.
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# [20:00] <jwatt> Waldo: so it seems like those tests are are testing for small number divided by very large number rounding to zero, and then that zero being used as a denominator somewhere
# [20:01] <Waldo> so I think it comes down to whether NSCoordSaturatingMultiply((256 * twipsPerPixel), double(1) / double(8388607 /* or whatever */)) equals 0
# [20:01] <Waldo> jwatt: ^
# [20:01] <Waldo> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/page.cgi?id=splinter.html&bug=609714&attachment=534970 and nsCSSRendering.cpp
# [20:01] <Waldo> specifically, the "Impute a missing dimension" logic
# [20:02] <jduell> biesi: ^^
# [20:02] <Waldo> and there's some symmetric hand-waving that probably covers the other tests (I've only looked at tall--cover--height
# [20:02] <biesi> jduell, sure
# [20:02] <jduell> biesi: So we're changing private browsing (PB ) to be on a per-channel (actually per window, but channel keeps track of it) basis
# [20:02] <jduell> This means keeping two databases around in the cookie service, instead of switching the "active" one between PB and regular
# [20:02] <jduell> that's fine
# [20:03] <jduell> The tricky part is that we can't ask a global PB service any more whether PB is on
# [20:03] <biesi> sounds great :)
# [20:03] <jduell> If the cookie functions are passed a channel, they can query the channel to ask if its a PB channel
# [20:03] <jduell> great
# [20:03] <jduell> But the function in nsICookieSerice also allow null to be passed for channel (3rd party cookies, anything else?)
# [20:03] <jduell> And I don't know how we're going to imply PB/non-PB in that case
# [20:04] <jduell> Also looks like nsNPAPI also doesn't pass channel in for its cookie calls
# [20:04] <jduell> biesi: I'm guessing we may need to add a "isPB" parameter to all the cookie IDL calls?
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# [20:06] <biesi> jduell, yeah, or enforce a channel to be passed...
# [20:06] * biesi wonders where NPAPI uses cookies
# [20:07] <jduell> Mmmk. I see dwitte is going to review, so I'll let him figure it out. I'll add comment in the bug with this issue pointed out
# [20:07] <jduell> thanks
# [20:07] <biesi> alright
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# [20:08] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/e119583f8b06 - Mike Hommey - Bug 725736 - Properly wrap getaddrinfo and related symbols (regression from bug 683127 part 2) r=dougt
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# [20:10] <taras> is toronto joining snappy?
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# [20:11] <gavin> they're always late
# [20:11] <jwatt> Waldo: ok, so I think the best thing for me to do is mark them random on all platforms
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# [20:15] <jwatt> Waldo: thanks for looking at this
# [20:16] <Waldo> np
# [20:16] <Waldo> well, mostly np :-)
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# [20:17] <taras> ehsan: is toronto even coming?
# [20:17] <@khuey> Talos Regression :( SunSpider MozAfterPaint increase 89.3% on MacOSX 10.5.8 Mozilla-Inbound
# [20:17] <@khuey> dietrich: ^ related to 715402?
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# [20:18] <taras> khuey: probably
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# [20:19] <@ehsan> taras: oh right we have a meeting
# [20:19] <@ehsan> taras: lmandel is here
# [20:20] <lmandel> taras: You're running snappy today because I have a conflict.
# [20:20] <taras> lmandel: i am
# [20:20] <taras> but nobody from toronto showed up
# [20:20] <lmandel> oh. I see.
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# [20:20] <jlebar> jwir3, Are you going to replace the extension with the outgoing hook on the wiki?
# [20:20] <AryehGregor> So I had some patches in mq that were accepted upstream. I do qpop -a, pull -u, qpush -a, and I get conflicts. Is there some way to tell mq to drop all patches that were already applied upstream, the way git rebase does automatically?
# [20:21] <dietrich> khuey: yeah. probably going to back out, b/c requires some test changes.
# [20:21] <@ehsan> taras: there's only me, and I probably won't join this meeting :/
# [20:21] <taras> ehsan: what about jeff?
# [20:21] <jlebar> AryehGregor, Rebase can help, but it's probably easier to delete the relevant patches from your series.
# [20:21] <AryehGregor> Manually, you mean.
# [20:21] <AryehGregor> Sigh.
# [20:21] <jlebar> jwir3, If you'd prefer, I can do it.
# [20:21] <jlebar> AryehGregor, Yes, manually.
# [20:21] <@ehsan> taras: PTO
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# [20:21] <jlebar> AryehGregor, I can show you how via rebase if you want...
# [20:21] <taras> ehsan: ok
# [20:22] <@ehsan> taras: vladan is not here, same as espindola
# [20:22] <jwir3> jlebar: Yeah, I will
# [20:22] <jlebar> jwir3++
# [20:22] <@khuey> breaking during startup and seeing places doing i/o on the main thread always makes me die a little inside
# [20:22] <AryehGregor> jlebar, well, my objection is that I'm used to git and in git it's automatic whenever you rebase. hg keeps on annoying me by requiring extra steps where the Right Thing happens automatically in git. But if hg doesn't do that, okay, I'll do it manually.
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# [20:23] <jlebar> AryehGregor, It might annoy you less if you understood the root of the problem, which is that mq patches are not tied to a base rev in the way that git branches are
# [20:23] <mwu> even stgit handled that right though
# [20:23] <jlebar> AryehGregor, So when you qpop -a, pull -u, qpush -a, mq has no idea that the changes were made upstream.
# [20:24] <jlebar> mwu, stgit sounds smarter than mq.
# [20:24] <mwu> it's really quite dumb, but they got a few important things right
# [20:24] <jlebar> AryehGregor, If otoh you leave all your patches applied, hg pull without -u, then rebase onto the new tip, it'll do the right thing.
# [20:24] <AryehGregor> jlebar, well, then I'll just be annoyed by mq's architecture. :) Not worth worrying about, any #whatwg regular knows I loathe Mercurial and think git is way better.
# [20:24] <AryehGregor> hg rebase scares me, because it destroys stuff.
# [20:24] <jlebar> AryehGregor, That's why I version my patch queue.
# [20:24] <@khuey> doesn't eventhing in git destroy stuff? :-P
# [20:25] <@khuey> *everything
# [20:25] <AryehGregor> khuey, no, nothing does. Except git gc. All objects are retained until garbage-collected.
# [20:25] <AryehGregor> Usually 30 or 60 days or whatever.
# [20:25] <jlebar> khuey, It's all still there, actually. But finding it is so non-intuitive, that to someone who doesn't know git, it might as well be gone.
# [20:25] <mwu> git generally doesn't destroy anything, which is why you can rewrite stuff without freaking out
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# [20:25] <AryehGregor> Yes, git is horribly unintuitive and ludicrously complicated. That I'll grant.
# [20:25] <jlebar> But the fact that people *think* this about git is my objection. Its UI sucks.
# [20:25] <jbuck> AryehGregor: why not just use git for patches? The only thing I use hg for is try-server
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# [20:26] <AryehGregor> jbuck, use hg-git, you mean?
# [20:26] <jlebar> AryehGregor, Indeed, I've been using git alone for the past month or so.
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# [20:26] <jlebar> AryehGregor, We have a git clone you can pull from, and I have scripts which let you push from git to hg.
# [20:26] <jbuck> AryehGregor: https://github.com/doublec/mozilla-central/
# [20:26] <jlebar> None of this hg-git business.
# [20:26] <AryehGregor> Oh, nice.
# [20:26] <mwu> that's updated hourly
# [20:26] <jlebar> AryehGregor, https://github.com/jlebar/moz-git-tools
# [20:26] <AryehGregor> I'll definitely give that a try.
# [20:26] <AryehGregor> Thanks.
# [20:26] <jlebar> AryehGregor, You can even push patches from git straight to bugzilla.
# [20:28] <jwir3> jlebar: Well, perhaps I'll move to git as well. ;)
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# [20:28] <jlebar> It's nicer in some ways, for sure.
# [20:28] <jbuck> and for my try server stuff, I just use 4 hg commands: `hg pull-u; hg import <patchname>; hg push -f try; hg strip 'roots(outgoing())';`
# [20:28] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/92d3c66fe897 - Tim Taubert - Backed out changeset b3a4b572a634 (bug 715402)
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# [20:30] <jlebar> jbuck, The script I wrote updates hg to the same rev that git has.
# [20:30] <jlebar> jbuck, So you'll never get patches which don't apply.
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# [20:34] <tbsaunde> so, I learned git before hg but I always thought git's UI was pretty reasonable if complicated where as hg's UI seems insane
# [20:34] <bhearsum> git's UI sucks if you're coming from hg, i think
# [20:35] <bhearsum> 'pull' being completely different really messes with people
# [20:35] <jhammel> bhearsum++
# [20:35] <jhammel> and what the hell is git commit -a? :P
# [20:35] <mwu> the ui both seem ok to me, but hg seems to do the wrong thing by default unless you configure it to do otherwise
# [20:35] <bhearsum> completely sensible, when you grok the staging area :)
# [20:36] <tbsaunde> true
# [20:36] <gcp> git push syntax with branches is complicated
# [20:36] <gcp> I always have to read the manual, even though I used git regularly at some points
# [20:36] <gcp> then again, it *has* usable branches... :P
# [20:36] <jhammel> bhearsum: oh i grok it, i just hate it ;)
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# [20:36] <tbsaunde> jhammel: but the index is so useful
# [20:36] <jhammel> beh
# [20:36] <bhearsum> jhammel: i....how.....go.
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# [20:39] <nemo> nitpick https://wiki.mozilla.org/Enterprise/Firefox/ExtendedSupport:Proposal typo "Over time, and ESR will be" should be "Over time the ESR will be"
# [20:39] <nemo> was looking for the ESR info for folks at work
# [20:39] <bhearsum> nemo: it's a wiki, you can fix it yourself :)
# [20:40] <nemo> I assume it requires an account
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# [20:40] <bhearsum> yes...you can create one
# [20:40] <nemo> I guess really "Over time the ESR will become"
# [20:40] <nemo> or, someone else who already has one could make a one-line edit since I've not needed an account up until now :-p
# [20:40] <nemo> or I could just ignore it
# [20:41] * nemo goes w/ door #3
# [20:41] <jhammel> then why bring it up? ;)
# [20:41] <nemo> 'cause I hoped someone would fix it
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# [20:41] <nemo> is like the guy who, when I mention in #redhat how they can fix the build for a redhat package, suggests I make an account on redhat bugzilla to tell them
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# [20:42] <nemo> only, you know, I don't use redhat, and was just mentioning it to them to be nice :-p
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# [20:48] <gcp> any NSS peers? I found an orphan: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=644764
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# [20:50] <biesi> NSS people tend not to be on IRC
# [20:50] <biesi> except bsmith?
# [20:50] <beltzner> kaie is, sometimes
# [20:51] <beltzner> but bsmith is the best option, yeah
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# [20:55] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/fb81c9a433e4 - Joel Maher - Bug 725716 - upload a new talos.zip for windows and linux rss collection. r=armenzg
# [20:55] <jlebar> jwir3, So the outgoing hook doesn't work?
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# [21:00] <dholbert> jwir3, I added "[hooks]" section-marker above your post-push hgrc suggestion on MDN -- let me know if that's not correct
# [21:00] <dholbert> jwir3, ( https://wiki.mozilla.org/ReleaseEngineering/TryServer#Disable_hg_phases_with_a_post-push_hook )
# [21:01] <dholbert> jwir3, (I suspect that post-push line won't work just anywhere in an hgrc, since it's broken into sections by those [] headings)
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# [21:03] <Waldo> I hate you all
# [21:03] <Waldo> I keep losing push races :-(
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# [21:04] <evilpie> 3 .. 2 .. 1 Fight!
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# [21:07] <jwir3> jlebar: Yeah, the outgoing hook doesn't work
# [21:07] <jlebar> jwir3, and the post-push hook doesn't either.
# [21:07] <jwatt> kinda astonished that someone that's been involved with the web for as long as glazou can possibly thing that evangelism could possibly fix the -webkit- use
# [21:08] <jwir3> jlebar: Actually, neither of the hooks work. I'm still trying to get a solution :(
# [21:08] <jlebar> jwir3, Cool. /me is happy you're on it!
# [21:08] <jwir3> jlebar: Nice that they change this without offering us a solution other than "Yeah, shouldn't do that. We make it safe for you now so you can't."
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# [21:08] <Waldo> we evangelized our way through an awful lot of IE stuff
# [21:08] <Waldo> and implemented a choice bit or two, of course
# [21:08] <jlebar> jwir3, I'm trying not to be too down about it, because we do similar things to our users sometimes. :)
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# [21:09] <Waldo> but it was a lot of evangelism
# [21:09] <jwir3> dholbert: ok, thanks, but it's a bit moot seeing as we're still working on it. ;)
# [21:09] <jwir3> jlebar: True. True.
# [21:09] <jwir3> jlebar: Like the pot calling the kettle black I guess heh
# [21:10] <dholbert> jwir3, d'oh
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# [21:11] <jwir3> dholbert: d'oh indeed. my day is slowly being eaten by this lol
# [21:12] <@bz_lunch> man
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# [21:12] * @bz_lunch wishes we had never switched dir listings to xhtml
# [21:12] <biesi> bz_lunch, why's that?
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# [21:13] <@bz_lunch> biesi: because it means we can get XML well-formedness errors on them
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# [21:13] <@bz> biesi: if filenames contain anything "interesting"
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# [21:13] <biesi> hmm, fair enough
# [21:13] <@bz> that said, the bug report claims this is fixed...
# [21:13] <bsmith> gcp: I will do all the checkin-neededs after the NSS 3.13.2 release
# [21:13] <@bz> oh
# [21:14] <@bz> but reporter is using 1.9.2
# [21:14] <@bz> er, bug reporter
# [21:14] <@bz> bah
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# [21:17] <edmorley> nemo: fixed the ESR page for 'you'
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# [21:22] <kaie> biesi, I'm here
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# [21:23] <edmorley> nemo: that was supposed to have a :-) at the end
# [21:23] <jwatt> Waldo|ultimate: and IE wasn't being developed
# [21:24] <jwatt> which had a lot more to do with anything than evangelism, imo
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# [21:25] <jhammel|lunch> edmorley: i assumed a >:/
# [21:26] <edmorley> well yeah that's why I clarified, since the 'you' was more because it's for everyone, and not because I was put out. The joys of text based communication :-)
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# [21:27] * imphil_ is now known as imphil
# [21:27] <igor> how to deal with mozilla-inbound commit that refers to the wrong bug?
# [21:28] <beltzner> with fire
# [21:28] <jwir3> and brimstone
# [21:29] <edmorley> igor: which?
# [21:29] <@dolske> you can 1) ignore it 2) backout and reland 3) land a new comment on top of the files it touched 4) comment in the wrong bug
# [21:29] * Quits: Jesse (jruderman@moz-4BE034AB.ptr.us.xo.net) (Quit: Jesse)
# [21:29] <@dolske> probably ought to add a little faq to the Hg guide, if it isn't there already.
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# [21:30] * Quits: Lucas (Lucas@moz-BBE3ABD.mv.mozilla.com) (Ping timeout)
# [21:30] <edmorley> igor: to ease merging inbound to mozilla-central, option #2 would be preferable, if it's not too much hassle
# [21:31] <edmorley> or I can do it for you, if you tell me which cset, and what the correct bug # was
# [21:33] <igor> edmorley: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=724310#c4 - I will reland
# [21:34] * Quits: gkw (gkw@moz-104CC309.mv.mozilla.com) (Ping timeout)
# [21:34] <edmorley> thank you :-)
# [21:34] * Quits: dveditz (dveditz@moz-104CC309.mv.mozilla.com) (Ping timeout)
# [21:37] <igor> edmorley: I just got remote: transaction abort! due to presumably bad backout commit message
# [21:37] <igor> edmorley: what is the quickest way to fix that?
# [21:38] <edmorley> what message did you use?
# [21:38] <igor> edmorley: backout merge
# [21:39] <edmorley> if the text starts with backout you need a cset after ; "Merge backout" would have worked (though you can save the merge using mak's script here: https://wiki.mozilla.org/User:Mak77)
# [21:39] <edmorley> s/save/prevent needing to/
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# [21:40] <edmorley> igor: as it's a merge, I don't believe you can |hg qimport -r tip| , so you'll need to strip
# [21:41] <jlebar> Wow, is threadsafe refcounting totally bogus?
# [21:41] <jlebar> Um...
# [21:41] <jlebar> We could decrement down to 0, so start to delete, and then increment the refcount.
# [21:41] <igor> edmorley: right, strip
# [21:41] <jlebar> bz, ^?
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# [21:44] <@smaug> who knows about sessionrestore
# [21:44] * mccr8 is now known as mccr8|lunch
# [21:44] <jlebar> smaug, zpao|detached ?
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# [21:50] <@bz> sheppy: ping
# [21:50] <@bz> jlebar: um
# [21:50] <@bz> jlebar: could be!
# [21:50] <@bz> jlebar: you're not supposed to do that!
# [21:50] <jlebar> bz, That doesn't sound very "thread-safe" to me. :)
# [21:50] <@bz> jlebar: well
# [21:51] <@bz> jlebar: the only scenario in which this can happen is when someone has a pointer but no ref
# [21:51] <jlebar> bz, I guess the problem is, |nsRefPtr<Foo> myPtr = ptr| is not atomic.
# [21:51] <@bz> jlebar: and someone else has the last ref
# [21:51] <@bz> jlebar: and the someone else releases that last ref
# [21:51] <@bz> jlebar: right?
# [21:51] <jlebar> bz, I'll write up the race in my head in a bug...sec.
# [21:51] <@bz> jlebar: in which case the race could also go as decr to 0, delete, finish deleting, then try to addref
# [21:51] * Joins: smontagu (chatzilla@moz-A5E578D7.red.bezeqint.net)
# [21:51] <jlebar> bz, essentially, yes.
# [21:51] * Joins: bmoss (bmoss@moz-BBE3ABD.mv.mozilla.com)
# [21:51] <@bz> jlebar: as in, totally completely not an ok situation to be in
# [21:52] <jlebar> bz, Maybe, but that means you can't have any static nsRefPtr's.
# [21:52] * Quits: Standard8 (Standard8@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP) (Ping timeout)
# [21:52] <jlebar> which are threadsafe.
# [21:52] <@bz> um
# [21:52] <@bz> you're not supposed to have static nsRefPtrs
# [21:52] <@bz> last I checked
# [21:52] <jlebar> bz is behind on the times.
# [21:52] <jlebar> bz, I added support for this about a month ago. Perhaps it was a mistake!
# [21:52] <@bz> nsRefPtr is not threadsafe
# [21:52] <@bz> period
# [21:52] <jlebar> bz, see ClearOnShutdown.h
# [21:52] <jlebar> bz, Indeed.
# [21:53] <@bz> assignment to it is not threadsafe
# [21:53] <@bz> I mean...
# [21:53] * @bz looks up the code
# [21:53] <jlebar> bz, I guess that's my mistake here; the addref/release code is right if each thread owns its ref ptr. I think.
# [21:54] <jlebar> bz, So here's what I'm trying to figure out:
# [21:54] <jlebar> bz, I want ClearOnShutdown to be thread-safe. So ClearOnShutdown has to hold a global mutex. But that global mutex itself needs to be destroyed on shutdown.
# [21:54] <@bz> so when you do an assignment...
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# [21:54] <@bz> assign_with_AddRef( T* rawPtr )
# [21:54] <@bz> {
# [21:54] <@bz> if ( rawPtr )
# [21:54] <@bz> rawPtr->AddRef();
# [21:54] <@bz> assign_assuming_AddRef(rawPtr);
# [21:54] <@bz> }
# [21:55] * Quits: jlebar|mac (~jlebarmac@moz-3F3A6302.dyn.columbia.edu) (Quit: jlebar|mac)
# [21:55] <@bz> assign_assuming_AddRef( T* newPtr )
# [21:55] <@bz> {
# [21:55] <@bz> T* oldPtr = mRawPtr;
# [21:55] <@bz> mRawPtr = newPtr;
# [21:55] <@bz> if ( oldPtr )
# [21:55] <@bz> oldPtr->Release();
# [21:55] <@bz> }
# [21:55] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
# [21:55] <@bz> So if you race assignments on two threads...
# [21:55] <@bz> you will always addref the two new pointers
# [21:55] <@bz> but after that....
# [21:55] <@bz> you could, for example, double-release the same oldPtr
# [21:56] <@bz> and leak one of the new things
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# [21:56] <jlebar> yeah.
# [21:56] <igor> edmorley: I relanded with proper bug reference, strip did the trick
# [21:56] <@bz> ok
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# [21:56] <@bz> so back to your problem
# [21:56] <jlebar> bz, You're screwed already if you're taking a T*, right? Because if I do nsRefPtr<Foo> foo = otherRefPtr;, it first does otherRefPtr.get(), at which point, it might be released...
# [21:56] <@bz> if people can randonmly release otherRefPtr under you, yes
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# [21:57] <jlebar> So I wonder what my options are here. I can't have a threadsafe refcounted global mutex.
# [21:57] <@bz> hold on
# [21:57] <@bz> so back up to your real issue
# [21:57] <@bz> you want to have some sort of refcounted thing
# [21:57] <@bz> that's accessed from multiple threads
# [21:57] <jlebar> Which can get destroyed at any time.
# [21:57] <@bz> and stored in a static
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# [21:58] <jlebar> bz, right.
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# [21:58] <bent> this sounds like fun ;)
# [21:58] <@bz> and anyone can come and release it?
# [21:58] <@bz> and anyone can come along, see it's null, and try to addref it?
# [21:58] * bear-afk is now known as bear
# [21:58] <@bz> or rather create a new one?
# [21:58] <@bz> or do people just create new ones all the time?
# [21:58] * @bz is not understanding how this thing is being used
# [21:58] <jlebar> bz, It gets created on startup and released during xpcom shutdown.
# [21:58] <bent> why not just make one thread responsible for create/destroy?
# [21:59] <jlebar> bent, Sure, main-thread creates and destroys.
# [21:59] <@bz> ok
# [21:59] <jlebar> bent, But I can't guarantee that no other thread is accessing it during destruction.
# [21:59] <sheppy> bz: pong
# [21:59] <@bz> sheppy: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/JavaScript/A_re-introduction_to_JavaScript has lots of exception messages...
# [21:59] <bent> well... if you do the destroy after all other threads have joined?
# [21:59] <sheppy> bz: yeah, the same old problem
# [21:59] <@bz> sheppy: same old?
# [21:59] <sheppy> the bot that detects it will fix it in a few minutes
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# [21:59] <@bz> sheppy: ok
# [21:59] <@bz> sheppy: It got linked off hacker news
# [22:00] <sheppy> bz: you've been living under a rock apparently :)
# [22:00] <jlebar> bent, Indeed, but I don't see the join point in xpcom shutdown.
# [22:00] <@bz> sheppy: I usually don't read devmo
# [22:00] <jlebar> bent, which suggested to me that xpcom shutdown doesn't actually do a join.
# [22:00] <sheppy> Looks like it's not busted on all hosts anyway
# [22:00] <jlebar> bent, It could be, however, that the join is simply obfuscated.
# [22:00] <sheppy> It's coming up fine for me
# [22:00] <@bz> sheppy: ah, ok
# [22:00] <jduell> bz: when we cache wyciwyg channels, do we only read from them when we restart the browser? Or can we read from them if we go back/forward, open tab from history, etc?
# [22:00] <nemo> edmorley: thanks :)
# [22:01] <edmorley> np
# [22:01] <@bz> jduell: reload is the main usecase for those
# [22:01] <biesi> jduell, back/forward is the _point_
# [22:01] <@bz> jduell: and yes, back/forward
# [22:01] <@bz> jduell: anything else is incidental
# [22:01] <biesi> and perhaps view source
# [22:01] <@bz> jlebar: so yeah
# [22:01] <jduell> bz:biesi : ok, guess we'll need to keep track of these for nextGen Private browsing, then. Thanks
# [22:01] <@bz> jlebar: you can't use an nsRefPtr here
# [22:02] <jlebar> bz, So it seems. :(
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# [22:02] <@bz> jlebar: you need an actual lock
# [22:02] <jlebar> bz, I could write a lockless linked list. :)
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# [22:02] <@bz> jlebar: threadsafe refcounting doesn't protect you against logic races; just data races on the refcount member
# [22:02] <jlebar> bz, Yeah, that was my initial misunderstanding.
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# [22:03] * @bz thinks
# [22:03] <jlebar> bz, Do you know if we join() on all threads during xpcom shutdown?
# [22:03] <Mook_as> fwiw, the join point is http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/xpcom/build/nsXPComInit.cpp#624 if I understand thing correctly
# [22:03] <@bz> I have no idea
# [22:03] <@bz> I would think we do
# [22:03] <@bz> sometime
# [22:03] <jlebar> maybe it's somewhere.
# [22:03] <biesi> jlebar, not necessarily; you should listen to xpcom-shutdowhn-thrads
# [22:03] <@bz> when that point is....
# [22:03] <biesi> and join them there
# [22:03] <biesi> maybe minus the typos
# [22:03] <bent> jlebar, we do join all
# [22:03] * jlebar does not think he wants to join all threads just for the sake of this component.
# [22:03] <bent> but
# [22:04] <Mook_as> (but yeah, you should have done everything in xpcom-shutdown-threads already)
# [22:04] <bent> you need to destroy after that
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# [22:04] <jlebar> bent, where's this magical join point?
# [22:04] <biesi> well, that doesn't do PR_CreateThread threads
# [22:04] <biesi> I think we do have a few
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# [22:04] <bent> they had better get it right then ;)
# [22:05] <bent> jlebar, https://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/xpcom/build/nsXPComInit.cpp#627
# [22:05] <bent> is the final join
# [22:05] <bent> after that you should be fine to delete your thing
# [22:05] <jlebar> Ah, yes.
# [22:05] <jlebar> With the exception of PR_CreateThread threads.
# [22:05] <bent> but we don't really have good notifications after that
# [22:05] <bent> you could use that loaders thing maybe
# [22:05] <bent> but that's hacky
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# [22:05] <bent> maybe add a new one?
# [22:06] <bent> or we could try to figure out a better way to do this
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# [22:06] <jlebar> bent, Or I could not worry about it, since most of the threads are gone...
# [22:06] <bent> well
# [22:06] * Quits: @smaug (chatzilla@moz-FD18D696.elisa-mobile.fi) (Input/output error)
# [22:06] <bent> this global thing
# [22:06] <bent> is it guarded by a getter function?
# [22:07] <jlebar> bent, yes.
# [22:07] <jlebar> bent, You know, I could have a global refcount that I manually keep track of.
# [22:07] <bent> then you could just make the getter fail after shutdown-threads
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# [22:07] <bent> and let callers deal on their own
# [22:07] <jlebar> bent, Oh, that's a good idea...
# [22:07] <jimm> anyone know what bugzilla component new start tab bugs are filed under?
# [22:07] * jlebar likes this idea.
# [22:08] <Bas> Anyone here knowledgeable on IPDL or do I need to wait for cjones? :)
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# [22:08] <gavin> jimm: firefox::general, CC ttaubert
# [22:08] <jimm> gavin: thx
# [22:08] <bent> Bas, always best to go ahead and ask :)
# [22:09] <jlebar> bent, Well...
# [22:09] <jlebar> bent, That doesn't really fix the race condition. It just makes it unlikely.
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# [22:09] <bent> jlebar, what is this thing you're guarding?
# [22:09] <jlebar> bent, So there's this ClearOnShutdown() function.
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# [22:09] <Bas> Well, I'm defining a ParamTraits for a new type, and I suspect I know the answer for that, but is there any way at all I can get access from there to the process handle of the process handle my message will be sent to? Since I can't find it on the message and this is a static member function I suspect no, but never hurts to ask.
# [22:09] <jlebar> bent, It modifies a global linked list.
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# [22:10] <jlebar> bent, I'm locking that list.
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# [22:10] <jlebar> bent, But what I could do, maybe, is keep my own refcount on the Mutex object.
# [22:10] <jlebar> bent, Once that refcount goes to 0, because I'm shutting down, then I'll reject all new ClearOnShutdown requests.
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# [22:11] <jlebar> bent, I *think* that may work. I'll cc you on the patch so you can see if it makes sense.
# [22:11] <bent> well
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# [22:12] <bent> hm
# [22:12] <bent> what is this linked list used for?
# [22:13] <jlebar> bent, During shutdown, we go through the linked list and clear every smart pointer (com/ref/auto) it contains.
# [22:14] <bent> right but
# [22:14] <bent> who is adding to it? who is removing from it?
# [22:14] <bent> in short, why do you need a global linked list?
# [22:14] <jlebar> bent, ClearOnShutdown adds to it. We remove from it only during shutdown.
# [22:14] <bent> oh it's like a
# [22:14] <bent> atExit
# [22:15] <bent> ?
# [22:15] <jlebar> yep.
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# [22:15] <jlebar> except it's before atExit, because the point is to prevent us from "leaking" global objects.
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# [22:15] <bent> jlebar, what if you add this list to nsThreadManager?
# [22:15] <jlebar> bent, what, you mean reuse something which already exists?
# [22:15] <jlebar> bent, :-p
# [22:16] <bent> we've at least worked out how that thing starts and stops
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# [22:16] <bent> (fingers crossed)
# [22:16] <jlebar> bent, The KillClearOnShutdown() call needs to happen after the thread manager dies, I think.
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# [22:17] <bent> could it be the last thing that nsThreadManager::Shutdown does?
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# [22:17] <bent> at that point it has already joined all threads
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# [22:18] <bent> jlebar, like, here: https://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/xpcom/threads/nsThreadManager.cpp#187
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# [22:19] <jlebar> bent, so in nsXPComInit, what we do after nsThreadManager::get()->Shutdown() is NS_ProcessPendingEvents(main thread)
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# [22:19] <jlebar> bent, We need to kill all the stored pointers at least after that.
# [22:19] <jlebar> I think.
# [22:19] <bent> well, not sure it's really important
# [22:19] <bent> see https://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/xpcom/threads/nsThreadManager.cpp#165
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# [22:19] <bent> that call is probably redundant
# [22:20] * coop|afk is now known as coop
# [22:20] <bent> (the one you pointed out, i mean)
# [22:20] <jlebar> Hm.
# [22:21] * bent votes for this approach ;)
# [22:21] <jlebar> bent, That approach is basically, delete the mutex and hope nobody dereferences it.
# [22:21] <jlebar> which /me is fine with.
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# [22:22] <bent> well, we already have safe getters for nsThreadManager
# [22:22] <bent> so i think it should be better than handrolling a refcounted mutex
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# [22:22] <bent> but
# [22:22] <bent> in general
# [22:22] <jlebar> bent, the latter is more defensive aiui, but it may be difficult.
# [22:23] <bent> this will mean that things get released on a thread that they weren't necessarily created on
# [22:23] <bent> which is always weird
# [22:23] <jlebar> that's true.
# [22:23] <jlebar> hm.
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# [22:23] <bent> have you got consumers in mind for this already?
# [22:24] <jlebar> bent, There are a few. Let me see if they're all main-thread.
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# [22:24] * bent crosses fingers
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# [22:24] <jlebar> bent, yep!
# [22:25] <jlebar> bent, Well, we've solved this thread-safety problem in the most trivial way.
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# [22:25] <bent> simple is good
# [22:25] <jlebar> indeed. Good call.
# [22:26] <Bas> rs jimm: Latest rumor has it Windows 8 for ARM will get a developer preview this month. And additional rumor has it it -will- have a desktop environment (not clear to me if it's still WinRT only)
# [22:26] <gavin> is there a bug about tbpl log viewing being busted?
# [22:26] <jimm> Bas: was just reading http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2012/02/09/building-windows-for-the-arm-processor-architecture.aspx :)
# [22:26] <Bas> It seems like it will do C++ though, which is the most important part.
# [22:26] <rs> Bas: saw that as well
# [22:27] <bent> Bas, it looks like there is an "OtherProcess()" method you can call on actors?
# [22:28] <bent> (maybe only toplevel?)
# [22:28] <Bas> bent: I can't call that from inside ParamTraits though, can I? Because I only have access to the Message and the paramType object there.
# [22:28] <Bas> jimm rs: So, porting gecko to WinRT.
# [22:28] <bent> inside, no,
# [22:28] <Bas> Nice little project I'd say.
# [22:29] <Bas> bent: This is going to be a challenge :)
# [22:29] <bent> Bas, maybe you could specialize the paramtrait on which process you're going to?
# [22:29] <Bas> bent: I don't see how, sadly, not without hacking apart the ipdl generation code.
# [22:29] <bent> or do you need the actual handle?
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# [22:30] <Bas> bent: Yeah, I need to call ::DuplicateHandle on windows.
# [22:30] <Bas> Which requires specifying the handle.
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# [22:30] <bent> oh, but
# [22:31] <Bas> bent: w00t, cjones just responded on gfx :)
# [22:31] <bent> can you use process id with casting the handle to
# [22:31] <bent> ah cool
# [22:31] <bent> i think you should be able to dup a handle
# [22:31] <bent> somehow
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# [22:33] <Bas> bent: Right, but all that stuff I can only do from -above- the IPDL serialization code, not from the bottom spot where I would normally augment it (i.e. a ParamTraits template specialization)
# [22:35] <Bas> jimm rs: Gimme gimme gimme one of these Windows 8 ARM developer devices, where do we buy? :-)
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# [22:36] <rs> Bas: Asa would be the best person to ask. He has been heading up getting people devices and I don't have one yet.
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# [22:37] <Bas> rs: I went and bought an x86 tablet just so I would try Windows 8 on a tablet, but I'm really looking forward to playing with an ARM one :)
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# [22:39] <rs> Bas: have you had a chance to look at bug 672885? I'm afraid that bug is going to prevent the new theme work from starting when it is ready.
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# [22:40] <Bas> rs: jgilbert should be looking into it.
# [22:40] <jimm> Bas: If under ARM we only have access to winrt, there's no point. We don't have the right apis there to run. So maybe they will allow for some sort of hybrid approach, or expose more apis. We'll have to wait and see.
# [22:40] <rs> Bas: cool and thanks
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# [22:41] <Bas> jimm: Why don't we have the right API's there to run?
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# [22:42] <Bas> I didn't see any strong objections, except OOP plugins but there's precedent not to support plugins (i.e. IE10 won't on ARM afaiui)
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# [22:43] <jimm> Bas: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Windows_8_Integration - memory execution, multiple processes, and process communication.
# [22:43] <Bas> jimm: I don't see us needing the latter two.
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# [22:44] <Bas> jimm: They're just nice-to-haves.
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# [22:45] <jimm> It'll be tough splitting our code base between multiprocess and single process as we move forward.
# [22:45] <jimm> in google's case they must have those last two.
# [22:46] <jimm> my hope is ms will provide some solutions.
# [22:46] <Bas> jimm: I thought we finally had electrolysis buried :(
# [22:46] <jimm> buried?
# [22:47] <jimm> gavin: did you find a bug on the tbpl log problem?
# [22:47] <Bas> jimm: Like, we wouldn't worry about it :P We'd do single process for the time being.
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# [22:48] <jimm> Bas: I suppose it's an option. all of this is up in the air at the moment. we have to wait and see what we have to work with.
# [22:49] <edmorley> philor: what is your preference for oranges that have a landed (non-wallpaper) fix? leave open until confirmed fixed / so that they can be starred more easily on aurora/beta? Or resolve fixed and just still star on the later trees when marked as closed?
# [22:49] <lurking> they just turned off recently the electrolysis build macine
# [22:49] <gavin> jimm: nope
# [22:49] <lurking> s/machine
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# [22:49] <Bas> jimm: Other than IPC, I think we can do WinRT just fine, and guess what, since their -is- no synchronous IO in WinRT, we have automatic jank-defences ;)
# [22:49] <jimm> rail-buildduty: ping
# [22:50] <rail-buildduty> jimm: pong
# [22:50] <jimm> rail-buildduty: hey, we seem to be missing build logs on try, maybe other repos
# [22:50] <@smaug> lurking: e10s is being built all the time
# [22:50] <edmorley> philor: I ask because I've closed them in the past and had them reopened, but the other day I left one open and the patch author (understandably) thought I had forgotten
# [22:51] <lurking> smaug oh
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# [22:51] <@smaug> lurking: it is all in m-c
# [22:51] <rail-buildduty> jimm: yeah, log upload tasks are delayed since stage is very slow due to release related tasks
# [22:51] <rail-buildduty> :/
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# [22:52] <jimm> rail-buildduty: ah, ok. cool.
# [22:52] <lurking> smaug it is ?
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# [22:53] <@smaug> lurking: sure. IIRC you can just set some pref to get the multiprocess tabs. It is ofc not ready yet.
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# [22:53] <lurking> k
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# [22:58] <@roc> we still need e10s, currently for B2G and still for desktop eventually. If we can't do it in Windows 8, that sucks, but then we just don't do it on Windows 8
# [22:59] <Bas> roc: This is only Windows 8 ARM btw, but I still think we need to try and be in that market.
# [22:59] <@roc> Microsoft could simply decide that we can't be in that market
# [23:00] <@roc> we'll see
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# [23:06] <armenzg> joe: blassey ping
# [23:07] <imelven> bz: thanks very much for the iframe sandbox feedback ! :)
# [23:07] <joe> hi
# [23:08] <philor> edmorley: close 'em is my preference - anyone who doesn't know to star m-a and m-b with closed bugs is going to have troubles
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# [23:08] <edmorley> philor: cool, wfm
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# [23:09] <edmorley> thank you
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# [23:09] <sicking> roc: ping
# [23:09] <joe> armenzg: crap I had composed a reply but never sent it
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# [23:09] <joe> armenzg: I just sent it
# [23:10] <armenzg> thanks joe!
# [23:10] <@roc> sicking: hi
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# [23:10] <sicking> roc: will the media-cache cache videos loaded from a blob-url?
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# [23:11] <@roc> should do, although it won't be as efficient as it could be
# [23:11] <armenzg> joe: you are saying to be aware that it runs faster?
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# [23:11] <sicking> roc: isn't it a bad thing that it caches? blob-urls are backed by local files or even memory
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# [23:11] <@roc> you could add a new class to nsMediaStream (like nsMediaFileStream) that avoids a copy
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# [23:12] <sicking> roc: cool, i'll look at nsMediaFileStream
# [23:12] <joe> armenzg: yes
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# [23:12] <@roc> if it's backed by a local file you might even be able to just use nsMediaFileStream
# [23:12] <@roc> that will let decoders bypass the cache
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# [23:12] <sicking> roc: it's potentially backed by several files which are multiplexed together
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# [23:13] <@roc> ok, so you'll probably need your own subclass. But it should be easy to do
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# [23:13] <sicking> roc: cool, thanks
# [23:13] <armenzg> joe: we know is faster; I assume you just wanted to pointed out; aka you can't think of any problems being caused by it; correct?
# [23:13] <joe> correct
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# [23:13] <@roc> just be careful with the threading, these objects need to be thread-safe
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# [23:16] <GeekShadow> hello
# [23:17] <GeekShadow> where is located the code used to search on location bar based on keyword.URL ?
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# [23:18] <mbrubeck> GeekShadow: See https://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/docshell/base/nsDefaultURIFixup.cpp
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# [23:19] <GeekShadow> mbrubeck, oh it's C++ maybe it could be converted to JS in future ?
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# [23:36] <mbrubeck> GeekShadow: Yeah, maybe? I think you'd just need to implement this interface: https://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/docshell/base/nsIURIFixup.idl
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# Session Close: Fri Feb 10 00:00:00 2012

The end :)