/irc-logs / mozilla / #developers / 2012-02-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Feb 19 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #developers
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  6. # [00:06] * @khuey chuckles
  7. # [00:06] <@khuey> bug 723760 is pretty funny
  8. # [00:08] * Joins: adeubank (Mibbit@A39DCCB7.2B13DEB9.43362C16.IP)
  9. # [00:09] <lurking> oh noes, wonder how many sites are going to start failing on sniffing come opening of business Monday
  10. # [00:09] <db48x> lol
  11. # [00:09] <lurking> oh, Monday is a holiday in the US = perhaps not
  12. # [00:12] <adeubank> Hello, I was wondering if I might find some information, I am doing a report on design patterns and I am using mozilla-central for my report. Does anyone have any great examples of design patterns somewhere in mozilla-central?
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  14. # [00:13] <adeubank> I was looking through and found many examples but I was wondering if I might get a tip from a developer where I might find a good example that I could easily pick up and learn.
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  17. # [00:16] <adeubank> Or perhaps does someone know where I can find good documentation on the source code of mozilla-central so that I can get an overview of what files do?
  18. # [00:17] <db48x> everyone always asks that
  19. # [00:17] <adeubank> asks what? where good documentation?
  20. # [00:17] <db48x> yea
  21. # [00:18] <db48x> there isn't any, really
  22. # [00:18] * jhford-work-away is now known as jhford-work
  23. # [00:18] <adeubank> haha its just one of those things you wished existed?
  24. # [00:18] <@khuey> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Gecko:Overview
  25. # [00:18] <@khuey> is the closest thing we have
  26. # [00:18] <db48x> there's scads of documentation of course, but none that just tells you which file does what
  27. # [00:18] <adeubank> awesome ty
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  30. # [00:19] <adeubank> hmm i see so my best bet would to just keep reading through the code?
  31. # [00:19] <db48x> well
  32. # [00:19] <adeubank> I am trying to find a design pattern that I can use for a report.
  33. # [00:19] <db48x> what exactly do you need?
  34. # [00:20] <db48x> what kind of report?
  35. # [00:20] <adeubank> I want to be able to describe how the design is an integral piece for the mozilla browser specfically
  36. # [00:20] <adeubank> its an software engineering undergrad class
  37. # [00:21] * Joins: shadeslayer (Mibbit@C50EAB4C.BEB1F3EB.1C37C358.IP)
  38. # [00:21] <shadeslayer> hii
  39. # [00:21] <adeubank> so far I have just been searching through the code with key design terms like factory, template, observer
  40. # [00:22] <adeubank> i decided to start working with factory and found nsBrowserGlue.js but the file is so massive that its hard to really get a handle on how the factory design pattern is important and how its being used
  41. # [00:22] <db48x> do you want an example where the pattern is used in lots of places, and thus represents a failure at some level of the programming language, tools, or the programmers themselves, or an example where the pattern is used exactly once and then the rest of the code never needs to worry about it again, the way it should be?
  42. # [00:23] <adeubank> The professor gave the assignments abstract like this "Analyze code to identify design patterns and explain their rationale"
  43. # [00:24] <db48x> so http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/browser/components/nsBrowserGlue.js#78 is a place where the programmer has written some code to implement a factory method
  44. # [00:25] <db48x> this is an example of a bad use of patterns in our source code
  45. # [00:25] <db48x> because everyone has to write factory methods
  46. # [00:25] <adeubank> I see
  47. # [00:25] <db48x> and they all end up being basically the same
  48. # [00:25] <adeubank> I am glad I came here to ask then
  49. # [00:25] <db48x> sure, you know what they do
  50. # [00:25] <db48x> you know how to write them right away
  51. # [00:25] <db48x> but you still have to write them
  52. # [00:26] <db48x> there's no capability for higher-level abstraction here that would allow us to eliminate them
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  54. # [00:27] <db48x> the only thing you can do is use the default factory provided by a helper
  55. # [00:27] <db48x> but sometimes you need to tweak it just slightly, so you end up writing your own anyway
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  57. # [00:28] <db48x> we can't eliminate them, because the whole point of writing them is to work well with the C++ code that calls them
  58. # [00:28] <db48x> shadeslayer: hi
  59. # [00:28] <adeubank> I see, I am not going to use that example for my report anymore. Do you have any examples of working with design patterns in the source code?
  60. # [00:28] <db48x> no, that's a great example to use in a paper
  61. # [00:29] <db48x> the failing here is in the design of C++
  62. # [00:29] <tbsaunde> db48x: well, in C++ there is the macro to implement that, but its still not very good
  63. # [00:29] <db48x> using a standard pattern like factory methods is a coping mechanism, and the best one we have, no matter how meager
  64. # [00:29] <db48x> tbsaunde: yea, it just gets you the default
  65. # [00:30] <adeubank> I see, where is the default factory pattern you mentioned earlier?
  66. # [00:30] <adeubank> is that the nsIFactory.idl?
  67. # [00:30] <tbsaunde> db48x: true
  68. # [00:30] <db48x> nsIFactory.idl defines the interface that all objects with factory methods are implementing
  69. # [00:31] <db48x> none of the implementation details are there, just a listing of the methods that need to be implemented to create a factory
  70. # [00:31] <db48x> adeubank: so if you look at http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/browser/components/nsBrowserGlue.js#1493
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  72. # [00:32] <db48x> you'll see that the BrowserGlueServiceFactory that is defined on line 78 is assigned to the property _xpcom_factory on some object
  73. # [00:32] <db48x> if you make your way back to the top of the object (line 116, don't get lost) you'll see that this object is called BrowserGlue
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  75. # [00:33] <adeubank> so this object BrowserGLue is implementing that nsIFactory interface?
  76. # [00:33] <db48x> and then if you go back to the bottom you'll see that BrowserGlue is used on lines 1594 and 1595 where it is passed in to a function called XPCOMUtils.generateNSGetFactory
  77. # [00:33] <db48x> that's the helper
  78. # [00:34] <db48x> NSGetFactory is a standard method name that all modules have to implement
  79. # [00:34] <adeubank> O ok i understand
  80. # [00:35] <db48x> when called, it returns a function that instantiates the factories for the objects in the module (on the C++ side it returns a function pointer or some-such)
  81. # [00:35] <adeubank> My next question then is how can I describe nsBrowserGlue.js objective?
  82. # [00:35] <db48x> I have no idea
  83. # [00:35] <db48x> it's a bunch of gorp
  84. # [00:35] <adeubank> gorp?
  85. # [00:35] <db48x> yes
  86. # [00:35] <adeubank> haha gorp like what is it?
  87. # [00:35] <adeubank> never heard of it
  88. # [00:35] <lurking> gooey glue
  89. # [00:36] <db48x> it's just 'stuff'
  90. # [00:36] <adeubank> haha right like the name suggests
  91. # [00:36] <db48x> yea
  92. # [00:36] <db48x> that name is itself an indication that nobody really knows exactly what this does
  93. # [00:36] <db48x> it may not really do any one thing
  94. # [00:36] <adeubank> "Gorp" ("good old raisins and peanuts") is a trail mix made with peanuts #WikipediA
  95. # [00:36] <adeubank> haha
  96. # [00:37] <adeubank> ok so its pretty complex but I am really just interested in the factory part
  97. # [00:37] <db48x> heh
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  100. # [00:37] <adeubank> ok well I am going to consider all this information you provided me with db48x and start reading more of the code
  101. # [00:37] * dougt is now known as dougt|regretschangingnick
  102. # [00:38] <db48x> the purpose of the factory bit is to provide a standard way of constructing instances of the class BrowserGlue
  103. # [00:38] <adeubank> you have given me a leg up definitely
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  105. # [00:38] * dougt|regretschangingnick is now known as dougt
  106. # [00:38] <db48x> the purpose of the NSGetFactory is to be a factory for the factory
  107. # [00:38] <db48x> (you can start to see why this pattern represents a failing at some point)
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  109. # [00:38] <adeubank> haha wrap your mind around that the factory needs a factory
  110. # [00:38] <db48x> exactly
  111. # [00:39] <db48x> there are lots of other patterns used in this one file
  112. # [00:39] <adeubank> has it always been that way?
  113. # [00:39] <adeubank> at least with this file?
  114. # [00:39] <db48x> for this file? probably
  115. # [00:39] <db48x> you can look at this history there
  116. # [00:39] <adeubank> theres just no way around it?
  117. # [00:39] <db48x> not when you have to deal with C++
  118. # [00:40] <db48x> C++ is just very poor when it comes to abstractions
  119. # [00:40] <db48x> programs written in other languages tend to have less gorp
  120. # [00:40] <db48x> and more meat
  121. # [00:40] <adeubank> hmm thats probably why I was having a hard time with this
  122. # [00:40] <adeubank> JAva > c++ at my school
  123. # [00:41] <adeubank> so you get one c++ class and everything else is dominated by java
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  125. # [00:41] <db48x> Java code tends to be dominated by patterns, because the language is worse than C++ in many respects
  126. # [00:42] <adeubank> How so? do you mean it can be more easily abused by a developer?
  127. # [00:43] <db48x> no, I mean that Java forces everything into a single mould
  128. # [00:43] <db48x> everything is a class
  129. # [00:43] <bkero> i am a class.
  130. # [00:43] <db48x> it's like putting a straitjacket on everything
  131. # [00:43] <adeubank> oic
  132. # [00:44] <adeubank> how is it c++? everyone is not a class and sane?
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  135. # [00:44] <adeubank> how is it in c++?*
  136. # [00:44] <db48x> in C++ you have classes and functions
  137. # [00:44] <db48x> but functions are crippled, because they're not first-class citizens
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  139. # [00:45] <db48x> you can't pass them as arguments to some other function, you can't return them as the return value, or store them in a variable
  140. # [00:45] <db48x> you can get around that some with function pointers, but it's going to involve a lot of pain
  141. # [00:45] <adeubank> o thats gotta be annoying
  142. # [00:46] <adeubank> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model-Glue do you think nsBrowserGlue is this pattern?
  143. # [00:46] <gcp> thats not a difference between java and C++, though
  144. # [00:46] <db48x> javascript is one step up, because you have functions and data objects, and they're both first-class citizens
  145. # [00:46] <db48x> gcp: yea
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  147. # [00:47] <db48x> in practice java and c++ are very similar in terms of abstractions
  148. # [00:48] <db48x> java is perhaps correct to excise the cancerous tumour of raw pointer access, but the result is not necessarily a better language
  149. # [00:48] <db48x> other languages are higher up the ladder
  150. # [00:49] <clever> db48x: i'm pretty sure you can use function pointers, even with class functions
  151. # [00:49] <adeubank> ok well I need to start writing this report but I want to thank you db48x for the information you have provided me with. This is definitely going to help me along.
  152. # [00:49] <adeubank> have a good one :)
  153. # [00:49] <db48x> adeubank: you're welcome
  154. # [00:49] <gcp> clever: function pointers are typed
  155. # [00:50] <clever> yeah, so your forced to call it with the right parameters
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  157. # [00:50] <clever> thats more due to the assembly layer, its writen to expect a certain number of args, and cant handle anything else
  158. # [00:50] <gcp> sure
  159. # [00:51] <gcp> this makes it harder to write generic code that handles "functions"
  160. # [00:51] <clever> js and java just store the arguments as an array and the engine can just insert a null when an arg is missing
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  163. # [00:51] <clever> ah
  164. # [00:51] <darktrojan> looks like about:newtab can totally choke my computer
  165. # [00:51] <darktrojan> fun
  166. # [00:52] <clever> darktrojan: i find the url bar doesnt clear itself fast enough, and i wind up pasting a url on the end of that string
  167. # [00:52] <kaie> how to I create a try build for aurora/beta? Can I simply push from within the aurora/beta tree, and push to the usual URL ssh://kaie%40kuix.de@hg.mozilla.org/try/ ?
  168. # [00:52] <@khuey> yes
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  170. # [00:52] <kaie> thanks :)
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  173. # [00:59] <clever> gcp: what if you just had a Function class in c++, much like js?
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  175. # [00:59] <clever> which stores it in a void* and handles the prototype seperately?
  176. # [00:59] <clever> qt has some similar things with its signals&slots
  177. # [01:00] <gcp> look, nobody is arguing that everything can be done in C++. Doing it conveniently is another matter.
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  179. # [01:00] <kaie> nowadays all tbpl builds are clobber builds?
  180. # [01:00] <clever> yeah
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  182. # [01:00] <clever> gcp: i know how c++ can be a pain, ive still got ~3 seperate segfaulting problems
  183. # [01:00] <kaie> no more tinderbox depend builds I assume
  184. # [01:01] <clever> the backtraces never make any sense and the trigger is random
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  186. # [01:02] <@khuey> kaie: no, there are depend builds
  187. # [01:02] <kaie> khuey, ok, good to know, thx
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  197. # [01:07] <edmorley> kaie: try is always clobber, other trees are mostly depend, apart from either manually initiated clobbers or periodic (can't remember the scheduling off the top of my head)
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  199. # [01:11] <ttaubert> clever: about:newtab shouldn't change the urlbar anymore since... I think today's nightly
  200. # [01:11] <ttaubert> darktrojan: what does about:newtab do on your computer?
  201. # [01:12] <clever> ttaubert: i'll keep an eye out to see if its still happening
  202. # [01:12] <darktrojan> ttaubert, dragging the thumbnails around makes my computer freeze up for several seconds
  203. # [01:13] <kaie> edmorley, thx, makes sense.
  204. # [01:13] <ttaubert> darktrojan: mhhh, OS?
  205. # [01:13] <darktrojan> which seems to also make my irc connection drop
  206. # [01:13] <darktrojan> :/
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  209. # [01:14] <ttaubert> darktrojan: which operating system do you use?
  210. # [01:14] * Quits: xakz (XaMaD@moz-34FBE388.fbx.proxad.net) (Ping timeout)
  211. # [01:15] <darktrojan> or maybe that's something else (ffs)
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  215. # [01:16] <darktrojan> bah
  216. # [01:16] <darktrojan> my connection is rubbish today
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  219. # [01:16] <ttaubert> darktrojan: ping? :)
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  221. # [01:17] <darktrojan> apparently no pong
  222. # [01:17] <darktrojan> heh
  223. # [01:17] <darktrojan> ttaubert, did you get my answer?
  224. # [01:17] <ttaubert> what operating system do you use?
  225. # [01:17] <darktrojan> linux
  226. # [01:17] <ttaubert> ubuntu with unity?
  227. # [01:18] * Joins: jrmuizel (jrmuizel@F2D29657.F60B0462.67AC9B1.IP)
  228. # [01:18] <darktrojan> yes
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  230. # [01:18] <ttaubert> ok that seems to be it, no idea why but you should try with gnome 3 for example
  231. # [01:18] <darktrojan> I suspect that may have something to do with it actually
  232. # [01:18] <ttaubert> I have the same problems when initiating a drag action
  233. # [01:19] <ttaubert> I had to develop d'n'd on my mac because unity made it impossible for me
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  236. # [01:19] <darktrojan> I don't think it was broken when newtab first landed
  237. # [01:20] <ttaubert> I had problems since the first day I started implementing the drag&drop stuff for about:newtab :)
  238. # [01:20] <ttaubert> not always but most of the time
  239. # [01:20] <darktrojan> I'll go try gnome now
  240. # [01:20] <kaie> is anyone about to do an inbound landing and would be willing to land bug 699905 ? that patch doesn't justify a separate build/test run. Commit comment would be: Bug 699905, add update_nssckbi to client.py, r=bsmith, r=wtc
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  245. # [01:23] <darktrojan> ttaubert, yup, it's unity
  246. # [01:23] * darktrojan adds that to the list of things he hates about unity
  247. # [01:26] <ttaubert> yeah :(
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  259. # [01:42] <edmorley> kaie: I'll push tomorrow as part of a batch of checkin-neededs :-)
  260. # [01:42] <kaie> edmorley, awesome thanks a lot!
  261. # [01:43] <edmorley> np
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  344. # [03:53] <darktrojan> somebody get me a new PC, I'm sick of waiting an hour for a build :(
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  353. # [03:59] <db48x> darktrojan: an SSD can help a lot
  354. # [03:59] <darktrojan> I think my processor is the bottleneck
  355. # [03:59] <darktrojan> but yeah an ssd would help
  356. # [04:00] <db48x> try a higher -j option to better utilize your cores
  357. # [04:00] <darktrojan> they're maxed out already
  358. # [04:01] <darktrojan> all 2 of them
  359. # [04:01] <db48x> ah :)
  360. # [04:03] <edmorley> well so it seems that the win64 talos regressions were due to bug 700822
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  363. # [04:07] <RyanVM> gavin: Where'd faaborg go? Google or Facebook? :P
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  365. # [04:12] <gavin> RyanVM: https://twitter.com/#!/faaborg/status/149565059566272512
  366. # [04:12] <RyanVM> haha
  367. # [04:12] <RyanVM> knew it
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  369. # [04:13] <RyanVM> gavin: anyway, rumor has it that you're a toolkit peer :P
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  371. # [04:16] <gavin> I have too many other things to review
  372. # [04:17] <RyanVM> awwww
  373. # [04:17] <RyanVM> I'll try dao then
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  382. # [04:27] <@khuey> if you had told me a month ago that switching to BrowserID would have made MDN more unusable I would have laughed
  383. # [04:27] <@khuey> I didn't think such a thing was possibly
  384. # [04:27] <@khuey> *possible
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  387. # [04:29] <kwierso> khuey: eh?
  388. # [04:29] <@khuey> kwierso: I'm stuck in some sort of infinite login loop
  389. # [04:30] <@khuey> I click login, it pops up the browserid thing, I do that, it redirects me back to the login button
  390. # [04:30] <kwierso> odd, I only had to do three clicks and I was logged in just fine
  391. # [04:30] <@khuey> over and over
  392. # [04:30] <kwierso> delete your mdn cookies?
  393. # [04:30] <@khuey> well I just used chromium :-P
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  395. # [04:33] <kwierso> khuey: I do like how MDN search results (at least on bing) now primarily show the browserID "what's this" text block as the page description...
  396. # [04:33] <@khuey> heh
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  408. # [04:57] <@khuey> did we make the error console even harder to find?
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  417. # [05:02] * kwierso has always just used ctrl-shift-j
  418. # [05:02] <kwierso> in the firefox menu, it's in the web developer submenu
  419. # [05:03] <kwierso> in the old menu, it's hidden behind the devtools.errorconsole.enabled preference, iirc
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  422. # [05:04] <@khuey> I don't see it in the web developer submenu on tip
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  424. # [05:05] <RyanVM> dao: ping
  425. # [05:05] <dao> RyanVM: pong
  426. # [05:05] <kwierso> it's there for me (actually in both firefox and classic menu's webdev submenu) in the current nightly build
  427. # [05:05] <RyanVM> dao: I thought that themes would fall back on the default if not provided. Guess not?
  428. # [05:05] <dao> RyanVM: no
  429. # [05:06] <RyanVM> in that case, I agree with you
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  431. # [05:07] <@khuey> weird
  432. # [05:08] <@khuey> might be an artifact of my crazy patch I suppose
  433. # [05:08] <JonathanS> The OS X Mountain Lion is deprecates Carbon Core.
  434. # [05:08] <RyanVM> dao: Thanks for explaining. I'm thinking that the bug should be repurposed to the PNG change and resolved FIXED. Make sense?
  435. # [05:09] <dao> RyanVM: yep
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  437. # [05:13] <darktrojan> bah
  438. # [05:13] <darktrojan> fixing bug 669845 didn't fix the leak in my test
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  440. # [05:15] <darktrojan> khuey, any idea what would still be leaking when this line is run? http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/toolkit/components/viewsource/content/viewPartialSource.js#287
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  444. # [05:18] <@khuey> darktrojan: the nsWebBrowserFind's mFind?
  445. # [05:18] <@khuey> nsFinds hold on to a bunch of stuff
  446. # [05:18] <@khuey> which is why I changed nsTypeAheadFind to just throw away the nsFind
  447. # [05:19] <darktrojan> it's still holding something
  448. # [05:20] <@khuey> 669845 has nothing to do with what viewSource is doing
  449. # [05:21] <darktrojan> I know, but if that line doesn't run, it doesn't leak
  450. # [05:21] <darktrojan> view source just happens to be what I'm working on
  451. # [05:21] * Quits: tH (Rob@cpc16-seac19-2-0-cust234.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406])
  452. # [05:21] <@khuey> right ...
  453. # [05:21] <@khuey> so findInst is an nsWebBrowserFind
  454. # [05:22] <@khuey> it has a strong ref to an nsFind
  455. # [05:22] <@khuey> and calling findNext() on nsWebBrowserFind causes us to store some strong refs to content in the nsFind
  456. # [05:22] <@khuey> that never get cleared out
  457. # [05:23] <darktrojan> oh right
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  459. # [05:23] <darktrojan> I think I'm with you
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  464. # [05:30] * khuey is now known as khuey|away
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  467. # [05:32] * Unfocused wonders why that's using strong refs at all
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  471. # [05:36] <JonathanS> Unfocused, GC?
  472. # [05:37] * stefanh is now known as stefanh|away
  473. # [05:38] * stefanh|away is now known as stefanh
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  475. # [05:39] <Unfocused> yea, but why? it's not as if you want to be finding anything that would normally have been GCed
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  479. # [05:42] <kg> hey guys, I'm taking a senior level course in software development and am looking to get involved with Mozilla for the semester long project.
  480. # [05:42] <kg> do you guys have any advice where I should start, or if this is a good choice for the time frame that I have?
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  482. # [05:44] <Unfocused> kg: hi :) i'm sure there are a bunch of different projects that would fit into that time frame. really just depends on what you're interested in
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  485. # [05:47] <Unfocused> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Features is a good starting place for larger stuff like that, though someone involved in your area of interest will most likely have many more ideas
  486. # [05:48] <kg> I'm interested in anything coding, but just thought I would ask you guys for your advice on a project or area that I can get familiar with the code base without killing myself in the process :)
  487. # [05:48] <kg> ok I'll check that out
  488. # [05:51] <Unfocused> heh, that's a really wide area :) have a look through that wiki, see if anything jumps out at you
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  492. # [05:53] <kg> hah yeah I know it's really general, but I'm just not sure if there are some projects that are going to be easier to contribute to than others, and was seeking some advice from current developers
  493. # [05:54] <kg> Personally I would like to contribute to Firefox or Thunderbird, no matter how small the contribution might be
  494. # [05:54] <Unfocused> ok
  495. # [05:55] <Unfocused> what are you more familiar with - C/C++ or JavaScript?
  496. # [05:56] <kg> definitely C/C++
  497. # [05:56] * Quits: lsumar (lsumar@4548E2C6.EE84D258.11F528CC.IP) (Ping timeout)
  498. # [05:57] <Unfocused> oh, and how about Java?
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  500. # [05:59] <kg> not as much as C/C++, but it's probably the 2nd or 3rd top language on my list of familiarity
  501. # [06:00] <Unfocused> ok
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  503. # [06:01] <Unfocused> platform is mostly C/C++ - https://wiki.mozilla.org/Features/Platform. alas, that doesn't seem to be as useful as the firefox page (which is mostly javascript stuff)
  504. # [06:02] <Unfocused> for Java, Firefox on Android should have a bunch of stuff
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  506. # [06:02] <Unfocused> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Features/Mobile
  507. # [06:02] <Unfocused> #mobile would be a good place to task about that
  508. # [06:04] <Unfocused> there's not a lot of people around at this time... and i mostly do frontend projects (ie, javascript), so i can't recommend anything specific
  509. # [06:05] <kg> it's ok, you been really really helpful anyways, and I'm sure I'll catch them another time in here
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  512. # [06:06] <Unfocused> :)
  513. # [06:07] <kg> I'll catch you later, but again thank you for the info
  514. # [06:07] <Unfocused> no problem :)
  515. # [06:07] * Quits: kg (kg@moz-2574D96B.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving)
  516. # [06:07] <jdm> Unfocused++
  517. # [06:08] <Unfocused> heh. the blind leading the blind
  518. # [06:08] * Quits: infinity0 (chatzilla@moz-774FDA96.as13285.net) (Ping timeout)
  519. # [06:10] <darktrojan> at least you didn't lead the blind to the a11y code
  520. # [06:10] <Unfocused> haha
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  523. # [06:13] * darktrojan tempts fate
  524. # [06:13] <darktrojan> hey, my connection hasn't died for over an hour!
  525. # [06:13] <Unfocused> heh
  526. # [06:13] <Unfocused> go NZ!
  527. # [06:14] <darktrojan> go shitty ISP!
  528. # [06:14] <Unfocused> who are you with?
  529. # [06:14] <darktrojan> telstra
  530. # [06:14] <Unfocused> heh
  531. # [06:14] <darktrojan> could be worse, it's not xtra
  532. # [06:14] <Unfocused> indeed
  533. # [06:15] <Unfocused> or slingshot
  534. # [06:16] <Unfocused> i switched to Snap a few months ago - best i've been with yet
  535. # [06:18] <darktrojan> woot, plugged the leak!
  536. # [06:18] <Unfocused> \o/
  537. # [06:18] <darktrojan> now to check I didn't break anything
  538. # [06:19] <darktrojan> seems to still work
  539. # [06:19] <darktrojan> it's not like there's any tests to check with
  540. # [06:19] <Unfocused> heh
  541. # [06:20] <Unfocused> also: whoa, just noticed you're finally on planet
  542. # [06:20] <darktrojan> go me!
  543. # [06:22] * Quits: ashish (ashish@moz-B77DEAEB.mozilla.org) (Ping timeout)
  544. # [06:23] * db48x sighs
  545. # [06:23] <db48x> git doesn't seem to work on this machine
  546. # [06:24] <db48x> just sits there
  547. # [06:25] <Unfocused> it's a pity mozilla doesn't use something else like mercurial....
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  550. # [06:25] <db48x> yea, terrible
  551. # [06:26] <db48x> (it's actually a mozilla git repository that I'm trying to fetch)
  552. # [06:26] <Unfocused> hah
  553. # [06:27] * Joins: ashish (ashish@moz-B77DEAEB.mozilla.org)
  554. # [06:27] <Unfocused> are you on windows?
  555. # [06:27] <db48x> yea :(
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  557. # [06:29] <Unfocused> git on windows is.... lacking
  558. # [06:30] <db48x> yep
  559. # [06:31] <tbsaunde> I don't use windows much, but msysgit seemed sort of reasonable from what I remember, and though even farther back git in cygwin was basicllay the same as on linux
  560. # [06:32] * Quits: harth (harth@moz-1F71062D.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Input/output error)
  561. # [06:32] <hub> afaik windows is the reason we don't use git as the mozilla dvcs
  562. # [06:32] <db48x> indeed
  563. # [06:32] <hub> even though the situation is now much better than it used to be
  564. # [06:32] <Unfocused> one of the reasons
  565. # [06:32] <hub> when they made the decision
  566. # [06:32] <db48x> I dunno about that
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  568. # [06:32] <tbsaunde> db48x: what's bad about it?
  569. # [06:32] <db48x> I've got about three different msys environments, all mutually incompatible
  570. # [06:33] <hub> Unfocused: one of, yeah
  571. # [06:33] <Unfocused> git in cygwin? now you have 2 problems
  572. # [06:33] <db48x> turns out that git works in one of them and not the others
  573. # [06:33] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/4d47329bb02e - Serge Gautherie - Bug 728538. (Av1) browser_ConsoleStorageAPITests.js: Improve code a little. r=gavin.sharp.
  574. # [06:33] <db48x> Unfocused: same with msys, I'm afraid :(
  575. # [06:33] <db48x> msysgit uses a forked msys
  576. # [06:33] <Unfocused> indeed. but i'll take msys over cygwin any day
  577. # [06:34] <tbsaunde> cygwin is actually pretty up to date from what I understand now
  578. # [06:34] <tbsaunde> gcc 4.5 etc
  579. # [06:35] <tbsaunde> as for hanging mercurial hangs all the time for me once its done doing what I asked it to do (on linux)
  580. # [06:35] <Mook> db48x: odd; git worked fine for me in mozillabuild (of course, I just have it on the path). I'm dealing with much smaller repos, though, not mozilla-sized.
  581. # [06:35] <db48x> Mook: yea, mozillabuild is my third msys environment
  582. # [06:36] <db48x> it's not compatible with either of them
  583. # [06:36] <db48x> either of the others
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  585. # [06:36] <db48x> unfortunately mozillabuild is yet another fork, and woefully out of date
  586. # [06:36] <tbsaunde> isn't that a msys sucks problem not a git sucks one?
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  588. # [06:37] <db48x> git sucks for requiring either msys or cygwin
  589. # [06:37] <db48x> hg is almost as bad, but they didn't fork msys to make it work "right", so at least you can upgrade and combine it with other msys programs
  590. # [06:39] <tbsaunde> I'd claim the right way if any to support windows is by requiring msys || cygwin so I have no issue with that
  591. # [06:39] <jdm> uh oh, I've hit that stage of the project where I start contemplating what other new exciting projects I could tackle instead
  592. # [06:39] <db48x> jdm: that happens to me too
  593. # [06:39] * Quits: peterv (peterv@moz-85A72D66.access.telenet.be) (Connection reset by peer)
  594. # [06:40] <Unfocused> eh? hg doesn't need either of msys or cygwin
  595. # [06:40] <db48x> now why doesn't git like my ssh keys?
  596. # [06:40] <db48x> or is it github that doesn't like them?
  597. # [06:41] <JonathanS> Unfocused, hg requires python
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  601. # [06:41] <JonathanS> db48x, did you check your ssh keys to your repo admin?
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  603. # [06:41] <Unfocused> well, hg is written in python... so...
  604. # [06:42] <JonathanS> Unfocused, in mac os x, python version is 2.7.1 by default
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  606. # [06:42] <Unfocused> it's like saying a an app written in C needs the C runtime
  607. # [06:43] <db48x> finally, success
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  609. # [06:43] <db48x> (different msys environments had different keys, of course)
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  618. # [06:55] <db48x> I guess I'm just going to have to do git-stuff in one shell and development in another
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  629. # [07:14] <jdm> firebot: uuid
  630. # [07:14] <firebot> b4b1449d-0ef0-47f5-b62e-adc57fd49702 (/msg firebot cid for CID form)
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  639. # [07:24] <gavin> hmm, I seem to have broken inbound
  640. # [07:28] <Unfocused> i hope you apologized to it
  641. # [07:28] <gavin> aw man, it was a stupid mistake
  642. # [07:28] <gavin> pushed the wrong patch
  643. # [07:28] <Unfocused> hah
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  645. # [07:28] <gavin> (forgot to qref the main repo before importing to inbound)
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  739. # [10:48] <darktrojan> "clone this bug" asks for a product and component ... :-/
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  754. # [11:20] <mck182> hey all, I've written Firefox extension which monitors file downloads and once it's finished it's magic. but watching the download only works if you manually do "Save the link as...", not when you download arbitrary file the "usual way". I'm using nsIDownloadManager and then "this.dlMgr.addListener(download_complete_notify);"....any idea what might be wrong?
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  756. # [11:20] <mck182> s/it's magic/it does its magic/
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  762. # [11:45] <darktrojan> firebot, uuid
  763. # [11:45] <firebot> ef00a440-2674-4b11-aba7-1306a1614b8f (/msg firebot cid for CID form)
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  819. # [13:20] <qheaden> Hi all.
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  823. # [13:22] <qheaden> Quick question, does Firefox build faster on Linux than it does on Windows?
  824. # [13:23] <darktrojan> that is debatable
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  826. # [13:24] <edmorley> I'd say yes
  827. # [13:24] <edmorley> particularly once you throw in ccache
  828. # [13:25] <darktrojan> I'd say yes too, but on my machine the difference isn't much
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  830. # [13:26] <edmorley> qheaden: also, if you were thinking of tinderbox builds then definitely yes, since they don't use pymake on windows which handicaps things further
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  832. # [13:27] <qheaden> True.
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  836. # [13:28] <qheaden> I want to move over to Linux development just so I can use distcc. I have 5 family computers that can serve as compile boxes for me.
  837. # [13:29] <db48x> Psychonauts is as good as I remember
  838. # [13:31] <darktrojan> maybe I should investigate distcc
  839. # [13:31] <darktrojan> see if I can bring down my awful build times
  840. # [13:33] <clever> qheaden: you could also look at colinux maybe
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  843. # [13:34] <clever> qheaden: colinux lets you run a (modified) linux kernel under windows, with relatively little overhead
  844. # [13:34] <qheaden> I actually tried running debian squeeze under Virtualbox, but it seemed that the disk io performance wasnt that great for the linking.
  845. # [13:34] <clever> though last i checked, it can only handle one core
  846. # [13:35] <clever> distcc does all linking on the master box
  847. # [13:35] <clever> so you could use colinux for the distcc slaves, and real linux on the master
  848. # [13:36] <clever> then you dont have to force your family to linux, they can use whatever they want and still be a distcc slave!
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  850. # [13:36] <clever> colinux also differs from a full VM, so some things like io may not suffer as much
  851. # [13:37] <qheaden> I want to install Linux on my laptop, but I don't feel like going through repartitioning and the like.
  852. # [13:37] <qheaden> All my servers use it though.
  853. # [13:38] <clever> colinux also helps to avoid repartitioning, since the FS is just held in a regular image file
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  855. # [13:40] <qheaden> Hmm colinux looks good. Ive always seen it, but never looked into it.
  856. # [13:42] <clever> id normaly recomend andlinux (colinux+ubuntu root image+xming), but the root image it comes with is fairly old
  857. # [13:43] <clever> all of the packages in sources.list are gone from the mirrors
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  859. # [13:44] <clever> if you already have linux elsewhere, its easyer to just build the root from another system and use colinux directly
  860. # [13:45] <qheaden> I wish windows had a free native build distribution software. I've only seen Incredibuild which is mad expensive.
  861. # [13:47] <clever> a quick test with dd in colinux shows 16.9 MB/s write speeds
  862. # [13:48] <clever> over the cobd interface (colinux block device, converts a file on windows into a block device in linux)
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  868. # [13:57] <qheaden> Out of curiosity, what OSes are you guys deving on?
  869. # [13:59] <kaie> https://tbpl.mozilla.org/?tree=Try&rev=98c45fd7c1a2 - I try to star. the star doesn't stick.
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  871. # [14:04] <kaie> is it necessary to click "add comment" after clicking a star?
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  873. # [14:05] <edmorley> kaie: yeah, press the star next to the suggestion, then either add a comment, or auto-add the comment using the star icon next to add a comment
  874. # [14:05] <edmorley> next to the "Add a comment link"
  875. # [14:05] <kaie> ok worked, thanks :)
  876. # [14:05] <edmorley> :-)
  877. # [14:06] <NeilAway> clever: I build on coLinux, although I needed gold in order to link in a reasonable amount of time
  878. # [14:06] * qheaden is getting a kick out of talking with firebot..
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  880. # [14:07] <NeilAway> clever: which is about 14 minutes
  881. # [14:08] <NeilAway> clever: this is with 512MB of ram dedicated to coLinux and 1GB of swap
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  884. # [14:09] <NeilAway> clever: also for some reason the shutdown menuitem went away when I upgraded from FC7 to FC10 :s
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  892. # [14:18] <clever> NeilAway: gold?
  893. # [14:18] <kaie> I don't understand why libxul linking complains that NSSUTIL_GetVersion is hidden, but it can find NSS_GetVersion. I cannot spot any differences in declaration. I'm on Linux. "objdump --all" gives me lines with identical flags for both symbols (one in libnss3.so, the other in libnssutil3.so)
  894. # [14:20] <kaie> never mind. i think I have an idea.
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  899. # [14:28] <kaie> No. I'm still puzzled
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  915. # [14:52] <NeilAway> clever: as opposed to ld.bfd
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  918. # [14:54] * clever googles
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  920. # [14:59] <clever> ah
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  934. # [15:27] <kaie> problem solved by moving declaration and implementation to some other place inside security/nss/lib/util . now to analyze what's different at the working location...
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  936. # [15:33] <pranavrc> msucan, ping
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  959. # [16:30] <lduros> in what file can I find the streamListener onDataAvailable, onStopRequest etc method definitions.. they are used with traceableChannel and I'd like to understand them a little more -- thanks
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  975. # [16:56] <msucan> pranavrc: pong
  976. # [17:00] <pranavrc> msucan, hey, I wanted to discuss bug 725430 a bit.
  977. # [17:00] <pranavrc> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=725430
  978. # [17:00] <pranavrc> if you're free
  979. # [17:01] <WG9s> !seen jimm
  980. # [17:01] <firebot> jimm was last seen 1 day, 21 hours, 58 minutes and 46 seconds ago, changing nick to jimm-lunch.
  981. # [17:01] <msucan> pranavrc: sure!
  982. # [17:01] <pranavrc> msucan, righto :) here or pm?
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  985. # [17:01] <msucan> pranavrc: i just saw your comments now
  986. # [17:01] <msucan> sorry i missed them
  987. # [17:02] <pranavrc> right, i'd be glad if you addressed that :) Also, I have some general questions about uncommenting behavior
  988. # [17:02] <msucan> pranavrc: the channel seems idle, so we can talk here
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  990. # [17:02] <msucan> pranavrc: so, i think it makes sense to do two setText() calls
  991. # [17:02] <msucan> but group them into a compound change
  992. # [17:03] <msucan> startCompoundChange(), then setText() calls, then endCompoundChange()
  993. # [17:03] <msucan> pranavrc: what do you think?
  994. # [17:03] <pranavrc> compound change? Sec, lemme look that up.
  995. # [17:03] <msucan> pranavrc: it groups changes into one for undo/redo, see source-editor-orion.jsm
  996. # [17:04] <msucan> pranavrc: also /* */ works for js and css, but for js when we comment only one line i think it makes sense to use //
  997. # [17:04] <pranavrc> msucan, yes, I'm actually done with the commenting part
  998. # [17:04] <pranavrc> uncommenting remains
  999. # [17:04] <msucan> awesome
  1000. # [17:05] <msucan> pranavrc: shall i assign the bug to you?
  1001. # [17:05] <pranavrc> msucan, i think it's been assigned already
  1002. # [17:05] <msucan> oh
  1003. # [17:05] <msucan> sorry, i missed that :)
  1004. # [17:05] <msucan> pranavrc: thanks a lot for taking the bug, btw!
  1005. # [17:05] <msucan> much appreciated ;)
  1006. # [17:06] <msucan> (make sure you add your name to the contributors list!)
  1007. # [17:06] <pranavrc> msucan, so, right now, how the commenting part behaves is, in the absence of selection, it comments out the line that the cursor is on, and in case of selection, it adds the comment block to the selection
  1008. # [17:06] <pranavrc> msucan, no problemo :) I'm only too eager.
  1009. # [17:06] <msucan> pranavrc: sounds good
  1010. # [17:07] <pranavrc> about the uncommenting part, I have some queries.
  1011. # [17:07] <msucan> today and yesterday were kinda hectic for me - i didn't get to bug mail
  1012. # [17:07] <msucan> pranavrc: sure
  1013. # [17:07] <pranavrc> that's ok, i realized it was a weekend :)
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  1015. # [17:08] <msucan> pranavrc: which concerns do you have about uncommenting?
  1016. # [17:09] <pranavrc> msucan, about the uncommenting part, how should that behave in case i select a block with only part of the commented block?
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  1018. # [17:10] <msucan> pranavrc: when there's no selection, then check from current caret line start until you find the // and remove it
  1019. # [17:10] <msucan> when you have a selection:
  1020. # [17:10] <msucan> get the line of selection.start and the line of selection.end
  1021. # [17:11] <msucan> you could check if from selection.start the first two chars are /* and remove them similarly for selection.end (check if the last two chars are */)
  1022. # [17:12] <msucan> but that would require the user to always make an exact selection, so you could work with the line of selection.start and that of selection.end
  1023. # [17:12] <msucan> and check if to the left or to right of the selection start and end offsets you can find /* (for start) and */ (for end)
  1024. # [17:13] <pranavrc> Ah, that sounds good
  1025. # [17:13] <msucan> but i was thinking now that it would make more sense to provide a shortcut to select the whole comment at once
  1026. # [17:13] <msucan> so you just move the caret inside a comment, press a key, have it selected, then uncomment
  1027. # [17:14] <msucan> this would probably be nicer, but this feature is out of scope for the bug you are fixing ;)
  1028. # [17:15] <msucan> pranavrc: pick the approach you think you like to implement most. don't bother too much with the code if it becomes "hairy"/hard
  1029. # [17:15] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
  1030. # [17:16] <pranavrc> oh. I've been looking up the behavior in some other text editors, and it's kinda 'intelligent', I'd say. I'll try doing my best here.
  1031. # [17:16] <pranavrc> the uncommenting behavior, that is
  1032. # [17:16] <msucan> aha, then look into reproducing the behavior of an editor you like ;)
  1033. # [17:16] <msucan> pranavrc: thanks!
  1034. # [17:16] <pranavrc> exactly :) Now that I have the license to :P
  1035. # [17:16] <pranavrc> msucan, and thanks for your time!
  1036. # [17:17] <msucan> pranavrc: but for a "first version" you don't have to make it "perfect"!
  1037. # [17:17] <msucan> oh, don't worry. thank you for your work and contribution!
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  1039. # [17:17] <pranavrc> righto :)
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  1067. # [18:02] <NeilAway> bah, I just wasted a uuid
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  1073. # [18:15] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/88c69fa60ec2 - Andreas Gal - Use native httpd instead of httpd.js (bug 728695, r=cjones).
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  1077. # [18:20] <wippler> could anyone help me with the problme, that hg clone http://hg.mozilla.... doesnt function??
  1078. # [18:21] <wippler> me pode axudar aquí irgentjemand
  1079. # [18:22] <wippler> ok thsi foi o tradutor
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  1099. # [18:55] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/f4010ca5f049 - Chris Jones - Bug 728673: Restore call to getNumberOfCameras(). r=fabrice
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  1101. # [18:57] <tbsaunde> account list
  1102. # [18:59] * cjones not amused by irony of having to use Chrome to read Mozilla email
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  1134. # [19:44] * NeilAway wonders why the solution to bug 728695 wasn't to fix the bug in httpd.js
  1135. # [19:45] <NeilAway> cjones: I'm sure Thunderbird would still read Mozilla email for you
  1136. # [19:45] <NeilAway> or we have other projects
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  1138. # [19:47] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/24f2c7e26fbd - Olli Pettay - Bug 728547 - Increase the forgetSkippable timer value, r=mccr8
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  1144. # [19:54] <evilpie> so looks like i am going to create my first android app
  1145. # [19:55] <bkero> Mobile Thunderbird?
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  1168. # [20:44] <evilpie> no :/
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  1170. # [20:50] * @khuey rofls at https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=728500#c12
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  1175. # [20:55] <@dolske> I wish someone would port TB to Android (eventually with a decent mobile UI)
  1176. # [20:55] <Matti> khuey: tell him about module ownership
  1177. # [20:55] <@dolske> I got it running on the N810, but it was... not a great experience.
  1178. # [20:56] <@khuey> Matti: his head might explode
  1179. # [20:58] <kaie> who would be a good reviewer for a very small addition to about:support ?
  1180. # [20:58] <kaie> toolkit
  1181. # [20:58] <@khuey> kaie: dolske
  1182. # [20:58] <kaie> thanks
  1183. # [20:58] <@khuey> he's even here right now!
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  1189. # [21:01] <@dolske> I am not! :)
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  1192. # [21:04] <Jesse> khuey: wow @ https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=728500#c12
  1193. # [21:04] <Jesse> khuey: took me a while to figure out what he was referring to
  1194. # [21:05] <kaie> dolske, no hurry
  1195. # [21:05] <reuben> heh
  1196. # [21:06] <@dolske> his rant is rather lolwat, but the principle behind it is something I've seen before, and seems good.
  1197. # [21:07] <@dolske> other projects have had problems with people having too strong a sense of "my" code, and become roadblocks or resentful of other people touching it
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  1200. # [21:08] <@dolske> I don't think we've really had that problem, though. And module ownership is a least a step elevated beyond that.
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  1203. # [21:09] <Jesse> i wonder if he would object to the phrase "his rant"
  1204. # [21:11] <@dolske> :P
  1205. # [21:11] <@khuey> Jesse: yeah, it was fun
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  1276. # [22:46] * cpearce wonders why operator < and friends are not implemented on CheckedInt<T>
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  1278. # [22:51] <glandium> kaie: for your NSSUTIL_GetVersion problem, it probably is a missing header in config/system-headers
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  1281. # [22:52] <glandium> kaie: as a matter of fact, nssutil.h is not in there
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  1286. # [22:57] <Matti> why are we playing around with the UA. That always ends in a disaster :-(
  1287. # [22:57] <mcsmurf> because we can :)
  1288. # [22:57] * Joins: darktrojan (geoff@moz-188895D5.telstraclear.net)
  1289. # [22:57] <mcsmurf> I never thought Google sniffs for "Firefox"
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  1292. # [22:58] <mcsmurf> ok, in this case it looks for the Gecko "version"
  1293. # [22:58] <Matti> yahoo sniifed for the build year, why shouldn't google sniff for firefox ?
  1294. # [22:58] <Octayn> Build year? Really?
  1295. # [22:58] <Matti> yes
  1296. # [22:59] <Matti> we had every year a new tech evangelism bug until they stopped doing that
  1297. # [22:59] <@dolske> the year in the UA was already frozen.
  1298. # [22:59] <@dolske> Gecko/20100101
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  1300. # [23:00] <WG9s> dolske:actually there is an issue now for mobile but might be XUL only
  1301. # [23:00] <Matti> bug 471816 for yahoo
  1302. # [23:00] <WG9s> dolske: seems to be no way to easily tell the buildid of the android XUL nightly.
  1303. # [23:01] <WG9s> going to check native to see if it is just XUL.
  1304. # [23:01] <njn> dolske: soon websites will stop working because the build year is too old
  1305. # [23:01] <WG9s> so I can see why for other than nightly builds this is really not an improtant piece fo information
  1306. # [23:01] * nthomas|away is now known as nthomas
  1307. # [23:01] <@dolske> njn: pedobear.com will just have to deal. :P
  1308. # [23:02] * Joins: jfkthame (jfkthame@B45A8861.90783722.9542EC20.IP)
  1309. # [23:02] <WG9s> but if it is not on the about:nightly page it needs to be on either the about:buildconf or about:support apge or both at least for nightly builds.
  1310. # [23:02] <WG9s> just for peopel trying to help users with support issues to figure out what they are running.
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  1313. # [23:05] <WG9s> dolske: apologize for my crappy typing was trying to say it would be helpful on the Nightly builds ot incude the buildit probably on both the about:buildconfig and about support pages to aid in user support so it makes it eisaier for the person trying to help the user to figure out what they are running
  1314. # [23:06] <WG9s> i agree this is probably not reauired info at all on a release build.
  1315. # [23:06] <mcsmurf> whoa, type slower!
  1316. # [23:06] * Joins: tonymec__ (tonymec@6E37F961.287D4F0F.277517C1.IP)
  1317. # [23:06] <mcsmurf> or get a real keyboard ;)
  1318. # [23:06] * tonymec__ is now known as tonymec|away
  1319. # [23:06] <derf> <shiva> ya knwo why no typos? because im using other ocmputer, differetn ketboard.
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  1323. # [23:09] <kwierso> so, is "zimbra is completely broken by the UA change" a valid reason for not doing any work?
  1324. # [23:09] <kwierso> asking for a friend
  1325. # [23:10] <@dolske> WG9s: file a bug, if it doesn't already exist, for adding it to about:support.
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  1331. # [23:17] <WG9s> dolske: just did bug 728735 asked to have it both on about:buildconfig and about:support but either or both whatever makes the most sense.
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  1333. # [23:18] <WG9s> dolske:but is more an issue on android XUL it seems to NOT be displaying the buildid or the date on the about page everyone else is displaying the date at least. perhaps that is the only issue.
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  1337. # [23:22] <WG9s> dolske: I submitted Bug 728737 on the Android XUL specific issue.
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  1342. # [23:23] <WG9s> dolske:folr the non-fennec case the date and revision should be sufficient.
  1343. # [23:24] <WG9s> on android XUL we get on ly a revision and no date so kind of difficult to trak down.
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  1347. # [23:26] <WG9s> and i apologize for my crappy typing. i am having a bad carpal tunnel syndrome day :-(
  1348. # [23:28] <Matti> asa wants dolske to backout ...
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  1352. # [23:31] <WG9s> dolske: I think you are right this belongs in about support adn for the XULO only issue should just be made to work there like the other about pages. I will probably end up assigning both of these bugs to me and attaching patches.
  1353. # [23:32] <WG9s> hmm trying to say XUL fennec only issy
  1354. # [23:32] <WG9s> issue
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  1356. # [23:32] <WG9s> boy I relly need to stop trying to type and rest my wrist before I cant work at all tomorrow.
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  1361. # [23:35] <WG9s> trying a new tactic. on the idea that it is the mouse causing carpal tunnel. so mousing with left hand now. that might be even funnier than my typing! ;-)
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  1388. # Session Close: Mon Feb 20 00:00:00 2012

The end :)