/irc-logs / mozilla / #developers / 2012-04-01 / end

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# Session Start: Sun Apr 01 00:00:00 2012
# Session Ident: #developers
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# [01:07] <JesperHansen> Is "Last Resolved:" a new bugzilla field? (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=739588#c9)
# [01:09] <jdm> JesperHansen: yep
# [01:09] <JesperHansen> jdm: ok. I guess it doesn't consider timezone.
# [01:09] <jdm> came with the recent bugzilla push I believe
# [01:09] <JesperHansen> "Last Resolved: 2012-03-31 13:24:09", "Jesper Hansen 2012-03-31 22:24:09 CEST"
# [01:10] <JesperHansen> which mozilla office has that time?
# [01:10] <jdm> I think most default times are in PST
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# [01:13] <jtcranmer> or PDT if it's in summer
# [01:13] <jtcranmer> or, sorry, spring, summer, or most of fall
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# [01:23] <heycam> I don't really like this 'suggest parentheses around "&&" in "||"' warning as error on linux
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# [01:39] <hub> heycam: why? it is sensible
# [01:39] <hub> it is not Linux but modern gcc
# [01:39] <heycam> hub, it's a warning I've never much liked, I guess because I find the precedence of && and || fairly obvious
# [01:40] <heycam> I feel it's similar to refusing to compile my program because I write "a = 1 + 2 * 3" because the precedence of + and * might confuse some people :)
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# [01:41] <hub> it is a warning
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# [01:41] <heycam> causes an error for me on try
# [01:41] <heycam> https://tbpl.mozilla.org/php/getParsedLog.php?id=10525653&tree=Try
# [01:43] <tbsaunde> hub: not with --werror
# [01:44] <jtcranmer> heycam: there are a lot of surprises in operator precedence
# [01:44] <jtcranmer> and people have found that enabling that warning did find a lot of bugs in production software
# [01:45] <jtcranmer> the precedence of + versus * is ingrained into us from grade school
# [01:45] <jtcranmer> most precedence isn't
# [01:45] <hub> tbsaunde: well. --Werror means what it means. Just fix the warning.
# [01:45] <heycam> jtcranmer, I agree especially for << for example, and unary operators
# [01:46] <jtcranmer> quick: what does 1 | 2 == 2 return?
# [01:46] <hub> jtcranmer++
# [01:46] <heycam> dunno!
# [01:46] <znhxr> jtcranmer: 1
# [01:46] <heycam> but if it where || I would know :)
# [01:46] <heycam> *were
# [01:46] <JonathanS> 2 pipe is or
# [01:46] <JonathanS> 1 || 2 == 2 would be true
# [01:47] <jtcranmer> JonathanS: it's one pipe
# [01:47] <heycam> so I don't mind the warning for less common operators, just seems like && and || are pretty fundamental and analagous to * and + that I'd be surprised if people didn't know their relative precedence
# [01:47] <jtcranmer> so it's a bitwise
# [01:47] <JonathanS> jcranmer, that would be like 1 & 2?
# [01:47] <znhxr> '1 | 2 == 2' and '1 || 2 == 2' have the same value in C
# [01:47] <jtcranmer> znhxr: no
# [01:47] <znhxr> jtcranmer: why not?
# [01:47] <jtcranmer> well, in this case, they would
# [01:47] <znhxr> heycam: I don't see &&/|| as analogous to */+
# [01:48] <jtcranmer> but not in general
# [01:48] <znhxr> jtcranmer: ...
# [01:48] <jtcranmer> heycam: that rationale comes from Boolean logic, which many first-time programmers don't actually learn
# [01:49] <JonathanS> I did '1 | 2 == 2' in python, it came out false.
# [01:49] <jtcranmer> JonathanS: python has different precedence
# [01:49] <znhxr> heycam: in fact, you could define || as * and && as +
# [01:49] <jtcranmer> znhxr: if you understand Boolean algebra, you can't do that
# [01:49] <znhxr> why not?
# [01:50] <JonathanS> jcranmer, so it is not correct?
# [01:50] <jtcranmer> JonathanS: in C, 1 | 2 == 2 is really 1 | (2 == 2)
# [01:50] <jtcranmer> in python, it's (1 | 2) == 2
# [01:50] <JonathanS> ah, a joy of language
# [01:51] <jtcranmer> arguably, the correct precedence should be (1 | 2) == 2, but I'm guessing the precedence in C is a vestige from before || and && were introduced
# [01:51] <znhxr> right
# [01:51] <jtcranmer> since and/or are synonyms for the bitwise, not the logical operators
# [01:51] <JonathanS> when I did '1 | (2 ==2)' in python, came out as 1
# [01:52] <jtcranmer> yes, that is what it would be in C
# [01:52] <jtcranmer> C and Java, I don't know about Javascript
# [01:52] <jtcranmer> a lot of C-like languages just ported over C's precedence tables, including the "bugs"
# [01:52] <znhxr> jtcranmer: so about my understanding of boolean algebra ...
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# [01:53] <JonathanS> jtcranmer, I did 1 | 2 in the Firefox's error console, came out as 3
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# [01:55] <JonathanS> oh never mind, when I do '1 | 2 == 2', it came out as 1 in the Firefox's error console
# [01:56] <mbrubeck> JonathanS: (1|2) should evaulate to 3 in any language (where "|" is that language's bitwise OR), right?
# [01:56] <znhxr> yes
# [01:56] <JonathanS> mrbkap,it sounds like 1 + 2
# [01:56] <JonathanS> oops mbrubeck
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# [01:57] <mbrubeck> znhxr: Shouldn't it be the other way around -- "#define || +" and "#define && *"
# [01:57] <znhxr> mbrubeck: no
# [01:57] <mbrubeck> Because 1 || 0 == 0
# [01:57] <znhxr> (false, true, or, and) = (true, false, and, or)
# [01:57] <mbrubeck> oh, right
# [01:57] <mbrubeck> I am backwards
# [01:58] <mbrubeck> znhxr: is right, "#define || *" and "#define && +"
# [01:58] <mbrubeck> also, my punctuation is terrible
# [01:58] <mbrubeck> (that was meant to be: znhxr is right: "#define || *" and "#define && +")
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# [01:59] * heycam relents and adds parens but won't like it :)
# [01:59] <JonathanS> if 1 | 2 is 3 that is like 1 + 2
# [01:59] <mbrubeck> ARGH
# [01:59] <mbrubeck> 1 || 0 == 1
# [01:59] <mbrubeck> so I was right the first time
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# [02:00] <mbrubeck> "#define || +" and "#define && *" work in languages with C semantics, right?
# [02:00] <znhxr> definitely not with C syntax
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# [02:00] <znhxr> because that's a lexer error
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# [02:00] <mbrubeck> well, yeah
# [02:00] <znhxr> also, consider 1 || -1
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# [02:01] <mbrubeck> heh, only works for unsigned types
# [02:01] <znhxr> consider overflow
# [02:01] <mbrubeck> argh, I give up. I am no match for C semantics. :)
# [02:01] <tbsaunde> heycam: you could file a bug to change CFLAGS and then we can have another --werror flame war :p
# [02:01] <heycam> tbsaunde, yeah :(
# [02:01] <JonathanS> tbsaunde clang?
# [02:02] <heycam> in general I am in favour of working towards -Werror
# [02:02] <heycam> it's just this particular warning I didn't like
# [02:02] <heycam> since I'm using clang locally I don't find out about these fatal errors until I push to try though, which sucks a bit
# [02:02] <hub> heycam: I'm in favour of -Werror but not for buildbots when you have multiple platforms.
# [02:02] <hub> I'm in favor of getting rid of the warnings
# [02:03] <hub> (ie fixing them)
# [02:03] <JonathanS> clang is too strict and picky.
# [02:03] * @khuey sighs
# [02:03] <@khuey> it will be time to get off the internet soon
# [02:03] <tbsaunde> heycam: yeah, I'd be in favor of some set of reasonable warnings being --werror, but that warning definitely isn't in the set
# [02:04] <heycam> APRIL FOOL'S I LOVE "error: suggest parentheses around '&&' within '||'" :p
# [02:04] <mbrubeck> znhxr: But in the abstract algebra sense where you treat booleans as a ring, && is the product and || is the sum
# [02:04] <tbsaunde> khuey: ?
# [02:04] <hub> JonathanS: no.
# [02:04] <@khuey> tbsaunde: april fools
# [02:05] <znhxr> mbrubeck: no
# [02:06] <darktrojan> heycam++
# [02:07] <znhxr> mbrubeck: && and || are interchangeable
# [02:07] <mbrubeck> yeah, I guess that makes sense... it just depends on the identity of true and false
# [02:07] <mbrubeck> they are homomorphic
# [02:08] <mbrubeck> && => * and ||
# [02:08] <mbrubeck> && => * and || => + is just convention
# [02:08] <mbrubeck> since it maps 0 => false and 1 => true
# [02:08] <znhxr> yep
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# [02:09] <mbrubeck> it is well over a decade since I did any abstract algebra; I am slowly paging in old knowledge from disk. :)
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# [02:12] <@khuey> ah, abstract algebra
# [02:12] <@khuey> fun class
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# [02:20] <jtcranmer> we only covered rings and groups
# [02:20] <jtcranmer> but boolean logic isn't a ring
# [02:20] <jtcranmer> (or a group)
# [02:21] <jtcranmer> since the only invertible boolean operator is xor :-)
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# [02:24] <mbrubeck> ah, yes... (looking at references now) it actually is a ring but with XOR as addition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boolean_ring
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# [02:25] <jtcranmer> I did that too
# [02:25] <jtcranmer> Boolean algebra, as normally defined, is a lattice
# [02:25] <jtcranmer> but lattices aren't groups
# [02:25] <jtcranmer> (though they are semigroups)
# [02:27] * mbrubeck used to know what those things actually mean
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# [03:49] <@smaug> glandium: ping
# [03:49] * @smaug hopes this build stays alive
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# [03:57] <smaugTB> grr, I can't use m-c
# [03:57] <smaugTB> it crashes
# [03:57] <smaugTB> somewhere under security/
# [03:57] <smaugTB> glandium: is it possible that your patch caused that
# [03:57] <smaugTB> since m-c was working ok before the latest m-i merge
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# [04:19] <edmorley> jlebar|away: inbound looking a bit colourful :-)
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# [04:24] <@smaug> edmorley: so something in the merge causes crashes
# [04:24] <@smaug> my guess is https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=736066
# [04:26] <edmorley> smaug: I'm happy for you to try backing out of m-c if you want? :-)
# [04:26] <edmorley> does backing out locally help?
# [04:26] <@smaug> I need to test that
# [04:27] <@smaug> I just verified that m-c right before the merge works
# [04:29] <@smaug> edmorley: ok, I'm rebuilding m-c tip without the patch for bug 736066
# [04:29] * @khuey grumbles
# [04:29] <@khuey> California tax law may be more complicated than Federal tax law
# [04:31] <Mark_Capella> jst: can we finish up on Bug 738380 - Remove nsINode::GetScriptTypeID/SetScriptTypeID ?
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# [04:41] <larfdesk> https://crash-stats.mozilla.com/products/Firefox?duration=7 OMG! Its all totally stable today!
# [04:43] <@smaug> I'm sure we can inject few crashers if needed
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# [04:54] <edmorley> *sigh* Nightly really does suck at opening tinderbox logs :-(
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# [04:56] <@smaug> ok, testing now the new build...
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# [04:58] <edmorley> think I'm just going to back out jlebar's entire push, I have no idea what caused the M-oth orange, stupid logs won't load
# [04:58] <@smaug> edmorley: yes, it is Bug 736066 which causes the crash
# [04:59] <edmorley> smaug: cool, thank you. I'll back out on m-c if you annotate the bug with description/log? :-)
# [04:59] <@smaug> I added a comment to the bug
# [04:59] <@smaug> and a stack
# [05:00] <edmorley> thanks :-)
# [05:02] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/4a8a5e8ef78b - Ed Morley - Backout 369ad04efa1f (bug 736066) for linux64 crashes
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# [05:11] <edmorley> right, trees a bit tidier and merge marked, time for bed
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# [05:42] <ewong_> !seen ddahl
# [05:42] <firebot> ddahl was last seen 33 hours, 37 minutes and 24 seconds ago, saying 'Mossop: yeah, true, and any firefox UI will go in browser/' in #developers.
# [05:42] <ddahl> you called?
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# [05:43] <ewong_> ddahl is the webconsole ui (and backend) stable? or is it still in the flux? (if that's the right word to use)
# [05:43] <ddahl> ewong_: on nightly? which release?
# [05:44] <ewong_> ddahl nightly
# [05:45] <ddahl> ewong_: if you are suspecting some issues you should ask in #devtools. I am not working on it actively. I personally have not noticed anything unstable
# [05:45] <ewong_> ddahl ok.. thanks.
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# [06:55] <@smaug> time to pack
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# [07:19] <jlebar|mac> Dang, I did not expect that push to burn.
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# [07:31] <Callek> jlebar|mac: if your pushing to anything .m.o _expecting_ burning you're doing it wrong
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# [07:38] <jdm> is mozilla.org and its subdomains down for other people too?
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# [07:38] <heycam> jdm, wfm
# [07:38] <jdm> hmmph
# [07:38] <znhxr> http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/mozilla.org
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# [07:55] <mcpherrin> jdm: been down for me all day.
# [07:55] <jdm> interesting
# [07:55] <jdm> maybe it's a waterloo thing
# [07:57] <mcpherrin> jdm: oh yeah, works fine via the university
# [07:57] <mcpherrin> jdm: Teksavvy thing, then.
# [07:57] <jdm> that would make sense
# [07:57] <mcpherrin> busted route somewhere I guess
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# [07:59] <mcpherrin> I can traceroute to mozilla.org
# [07:59] <mcpherrin> ping, too.
# [07:59] <jdm> I get stuck at a random router
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# [08:01] <jdm> hmm, I eventually do reach it apparently
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# [08:11] <Reaper_man> is it a known issue that nightly has issues with uploads
# [08:11] <Reaper_man> ie: the upload with eventually hang?
# [08:11] <Reaper_man> *will
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# [08:21] <jlebar|mac> whoa, inline autocomplete is broken.
# [08:21] <jlebar|mac> Like, I'm not surprised it's broken, but by the degree...
# [08:22] <Callek> jlebar|mac: bug or it didn't happen
# [08:22] <Callek> jlebar|mac: regression range as well is helpful ;-)
# [08:22] <jlebar|mac> Callek: It went away when I updated, so maybe it's fixed. If I can reproduce, I'll file. :)
# [08:22] <Callek> sounds good
# [08:22] * Callek decides to start using that phrase, "bug or it didn't happen" to compel people who see an issue to either file or point a bug at me
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# [09:31] <Reaper_man> http://www.turtlebeach.com/products/xbox-gaming-headsets/ear-force-xppx9001.aspx
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# [09:36] <Mark_Capella> I used to use screen print it or i dont believe it happened
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# [10:28] <avih> tn: you were right: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=728738#c34
# [10:29] <avih> brb
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# [10:44] <avih> tn: ping
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# [11:09] <avih> jaws: re assert for failed instanciation, haven't seen in on other places, should i?
# [11:10] <avih> jaws: e.g., mAsyncScroll = new AsyncScroll; is never chacked for failure, so not sure if i should...
# [11:11] <jaws> avih: maybe? i just want thought there is a chance of a memory leak later if that is reassigned without deleting first
# [11:11] <avih> jaws: that should be covered
# [11:11] <jaws> oh ok, by nsRefPtr?
# [11:11] <avih> yes
# [11:11] <jaws> ok
# [11:11] * jaws wishes he could retract his comment :)
# [11:12] <avih> no, wait, you might be right
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# [11:13] <avih> jaws: it would be better to set pass these params on CTOR, such that it's only created once with ObserveRefresh() (no args)
# [11:14] <avih> jaws: or something like that. anyway, i hear you. i'll handle it more clearly.
# [11:14] <avih> possibly with an assert ;)
# [11:14] <jaws> ok cool, nice job on the patch :)
# [11:14] <avih> :)
# [11:15] * darktrojan thinks it might be an appropriate date to land bug 682360
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# [11:22] * NeilAway thinks it might be an appropriate date to land a 1-line change on m-c and then ignore the tree
# [11:24] <darktrojan> that's a good idea too
# [11:24] <avih> jaws: u saw that i found the smooth scroll glitch? https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=728738#c34
# [11:24] <avih> no easy fix though... but at least we now know exactly what happens.
# [11:25] <avih> brb
# [11:26] <jaws> avih: yeah i saw that, nice work :)
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# [11:27] <NeilAway> jtcranmer: boolean algebra (bool, !=, &&) is equivalent to (unsigned:1, ^, *) which happens to be equivalent to (unsigned:1, +, *)
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# [11:29] <darktrojan> huh. thunderbird'
# [11:29] <darktrojan> fs
# [11:29] <darktrojan> thunderbird's about:buildconfig doesn't show me the rev id
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# [11:33] <NeilAway> file a vu
# [11:33] <NeilAway> bah, stupid keyboards
# [11:33] <NeilAway> darktrojan: file a bug :-P
# [11:34] <darktrojan> firebot, file a bug
# [11:34] <firebot> darktrojan: everyone knows that! file a bug is file a bug at https://bugzilla.mozilla.org , Mozilla's bugtracking ticket sytem (including enhancement requests)
# [11:36] <glandium> file a deja vu
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# [12:21] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/06292389b24c - Josh Aas - Bug 741126: Require plugin for instance creation. r=jst
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# [12:42] <@khuey> var xhr = new XMLHttpRequest();
# [12:43] <@khuey> xhr.onreadystatechange;
# [12:43] <@khuey> is enough to crash nightly :-P
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# [12:56] <clever> khuey: uh oh.....
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# [12:58] <clever> my extension is practicaly 80% ajax!
# [12:58] <@khuey> hehe
# [12:58] * clever upgrades nightly!
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# [13:04] <clever> khuey: not seeing any crashes on my end
# [13:04] <clever> though i'm using it mostly via xpcom
# [13:05] <clever> createInstance(Components.interfaces.nsIXMLHttpRequest);
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# [13:11] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/8b75b4f686e7 - Kyle Huey - Bug 741163: Add a rather important null check. r=me
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# [13:39] <darktrojan> wtf? we reuse email composition windows?
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# [15:41] * KaiRo enters about:life in his SeaMonkey and smiles :)
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# [15:43] <avih> KaiRo_away: theoretically, if the publisher of Douglad Adams sues, he might have a case ;)
# [15:43] <avih> Douglas*
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# [15:56] <KaiRo_away> avih: umm, there's so many references to HHGTTG in so many things, I doubt they even think about suing anywhere, as if they do, they need to sue half of the FLOSS world, which would reduce their readership and followers instead of helping their business
# [15:57] <avih> KaiRo_away: probably. i said theoretically ;)
# [15:57] <KaiRo_away> sure
# [15:58] <KaiRo_away> and AFAIK, Firefox' about:robots could run into similar problems
# [15:59] <avih> well.. that's a paraphrase, probably would pass with fair use
# [15:59] * KaiRo_away takes his dolphin-themed towel and heads to the spa resort
# [15:59] <avih> heh
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# [16:02] <KaiRo_away> avih: oh, good argument - I'm pretty sure that about:life falls under fair use as well, that said - all it has is "Life, the Universe, and Everything" and the square root of 1764
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# [16:02] <avih> lol
# [16:03] <KaiRo_away> and yes, the only JS on the page is calculating Math.sqrt(1764) - everything else is CSS3 :)
# [16:04] <avih> :)
# [16:04] <KaiRo_away> of course, we could have written the bare number into HTML, but using that formula was more fun
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# [16:04] <avih> well.. that pilgrimage from elsewhere then, on THHGTTG it's 6*7 ;)
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# [16:05] <AryehGregor> Can we have two events that have the same name but implement different interfaces?
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# [16:06] <Ms2ger> Sure
# [16:06] <Ms2ger> I think
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# [16:07] <KaiRo_away> avih: it's never being revealed what the the actual question is, 6*7 is only a suggestion someone makes at some point
# [16:08] <avih> indeed, and that was the suggestion :)
# [16:08] <KaiRo_away> it must be wrong though, as it's being said somewhere that as soon as someone know both the asnwer and the question, the universe ceases to exist
# [16:09] <avih> has it been said? i don't recall..
# [16:09] <KaiRo_away> yes, would need to look up where, though
# [16:09] <KaiRo_away> anyhow, spa time
# [16:09] <avih> :) enjoy
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# [16:23] <Mark_Capella> ms2ger: thanks for the push :)
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# [16:23] <Ms2ger> Np, thanks for the patch!
# [16:23] <Mark_Capella> let me know if I can do more
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# [16:26] <Ms2ger> Will do
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# [17:11] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, don't forget to test document.createEvent('EditingInputEvent') :)
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# [18:22] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/dd21f16d11da - Serge Gautherie - Bug 741064. (Av1) Fix "function PTV__buildVisibleSection does not always return a value". r=mano.
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# [18:33] <NeilAway> avih: I always thought that the suggestion was "what do you get if you multiply six by nine"
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# [18:42] <cers> interesting problem; typed var myString=new java.lang.String("hello"); into web developer console, and my firefox beach balled. after 10 mins I force quit it, and according to activity monitor it did, but it didn't release the memory.
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# [18:43] <cers> I do see it listed using `ps x` though
# [18:46] <avih> NeilAway: well, it's not a bad suggestion, but i think there are better ones ;)
# [18:52] <jdm> cers: no beachballing here
# [18:53] <cers> jdm: hmm
# [18:54] <cers> jdm: I guess my nightly just doesn't like java
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# [18:55] <jdm> cers: I'm on nightly
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# [18:58] <jviereck> I want to store a list of nsHTMLCanvasElement temporary. What type of array class should I use for this?
# [18:59] <Ms2ger> nsTArray<nsRefPtr<>>
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# [19:01] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/9669e95f51ab - Tim Taubert - Bug 727446 - follow up, test fix #2; r=bustage
# [19:01] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/0e959c772e5f - Tim Taubert - merge m-c to fx-team
# [19:01] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/9987bba302ca - Tim Taubert - Bug 727446 - Let the window owning a storage dispatch an event when the storage changes; r=smaug
# [19:01] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/de5dde8bfa29 - Tim Taubert - Bug 727446 - follow up, test fix r=bustage
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# [19:03] <tn> avih, pong
# [19:04] <avih> tn: wb :)
# [19:05] <avih> tn: u wanna close bug 728153 with -16ms and that's it?
# [19:06] <avih> tn: also, u were right about te glitches, it was the refresh driver invalidations.
# [19:08] <tn> avih, no i don't really want to close 728153 with that, it doesn't seem right, we have no model to base it on, maybe we'll end up making it feel more jerking by not easing into the motion and jumping into it part way through
# [19:08] <tn> avih, and in either case if we use the refresh driver we will start the animation on average 8ms in already
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# [19:09] <avih> tn: i know, but we're still 8ms "short" on average
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# [19:09] <tn> avih, what i don't get is why you still see the glitch when smooth scrolling is on the refresh driver and the refresh driver is doing 16ms. that situation should be identical to when smooth scrolling had its own timer and invalidations weren't on the refresh driver
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# [19:10] <avih> tn: almost, recall that i tested with smooth wheel which is 240hz by default.
# [19:10] <avih> so earlier, invalidations weren't limited, and now they are, to once in 17ms
# [19:11] <tn> avih, explain to me why the two situations i described are different, one has the glitch the other doesn't
# [19:11] <avih> it explains my observation that when i printed timestamps delta, i didn't see anything out of the ordinary
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# [19:12] <avih> tn: ^ i saw the glitch with smoothwheel (the addon) which does 240hz by default
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# [19:13] <tn> avih, i don't care about that situation. i only care about the two situations i described.
# [19:13] <avih> it was also visible with internal smooth scroll, but using 2 timers (one for refresh, on for smooth iterations) medded something up as well. but now with the refresh driver hookup, it's much clearer
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# [19:14] <avih> tn: there shouldn't be a theoretical difference
# [19:14] <avih> and there isn't
# [19:14] <tn> avih, your comment to the bug said that there was
# [19:14] <avih> hooking to the refresh driver didn't fix the glitches, it just allowed me to change the refresh rate from one place
# [19:15] <avih> tn: quote me pls, i don't recall saying so
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# [19:15] <tn> avih, 728738 comment 34 paragraph 4
# [19:16] <avih> "The naive "fix" would be..." ?
# [19:16] <avih> tn: ^ this?
# [19:16] <tn> avih, yes
# [19:16] <avih> tn: please ask again what you don't find consistent about it.
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# [19:18] <tn> avih, situation 1: when smooth scrolling had its own (16ms) timer and invalidations _weren't_ on the refresh driver (ie how it was on jan 1). situation 2: smooth scrolling on the refresh driver. invalidations flushed on the refresh driver. refresh driver 16ms. (ie with your patch plus refresh driver tick time change)
# [19:19] <tn> avih, you indicated that the glitch was a regression from the bug that moved invalidation flushing to the refresh driver, which means that in situation 1 we didn't have the glitch.
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# [19:20] <tn> avih, 728738 comment 34 paragraph 4 seems to indicate that we have the bug in situation 2
# [19:20] <tn> avih, if that is all true, then why do we have the bug in situation 2 and not situation 1?
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# [19:21] <avih> tn: it should indeed be on both cases, and it is. i said so few times already. but i don't see the relation to said par. 4.
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# [19:22] <tn> avih, the relationship to that paragraph 4 is "728738 comment 34 paragraph 4 seems to indicate that we have the bug in situation 2"
# [19:22] <tn> avih, so you are saying we have the bug in situation 1 and in situation 2?
# [19:22] <avih> and we do...
# [19:22] <avih> yes
# [19:22] <avih> the bug is not fixed yet. i just said i found the cause
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# [19:23] <tn> avih, so then this isn't a regression caused by bug 598482 at all?
# [19:23] <avih> tn: and fwiw, the refresh driver timer is 17ms, not 16. but the smooth scroll own timer was iirc 16ms
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# [19:24] <tn> avih, yes, that is correct (re 16 vs 17)
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# [19:25] <avih> tn: i noted few times that it's not necessarily a regression. it's a side effect of the refresh invalidations bug. i noticed that i saw it, and you decided to call it a regression and open a new bug for it...
# [19:25] <avih> and i tested as much as i could
# [19:26] <tn> avih, what do you mean by "it's a side effect of the refresh invalidations bug" if its not a regression caused by that?
# [19:27] <avih> if you invalidate using an inaccurate timer, then you'll get glitches because it's not in sync with the monitor. if you use 17ms timer on 60hz monitor, you'll miss a frame every 50 frames.
# [19:27] <avih> that can be considered "by design".
# [19:28] <avih> tn: ^
# [19:29] <tn> avih, regression means "something was good, but it became bad"
# [19:29] <avih> tn: bottom lines, forget the definitions. prior to the refresh driver invalidations, invalidations could happen as fast as you wanted. so if you used 500hz timer, you'd have hew invalidations per monitor refresh. but now it's limited to once in 17ms
# [19:29] <tn> avih, i can't forget the definitions here because i have no idea what you are actually saying in reality
# [19:29] <avih> tn: and i didn't call it a regression. it was you who insisted on it.
# [19:30] <tn> avih, was it good before and is it bad now? yes or no
# [19:31] <avih> you can call this a regression: prior to refresh invalidations, you could update the image on every monitor refresh, and now you can't
# [19:31] <tn> i don't care who said what i just want to know what is true or false
# [19:31] <avih> now it's worse, yes
# [19:31] <tn> avih, i don't care whats going on under the hood. i want to know if you look at the smooth scroll on the screen does the glitch happen or not
# [19:31] <avih> well.. mozilla's own smooth scroll is NOT worse, it was bad before and it was bad now.
# [19:32] <avih> yes, it still happens.
# [19:32] <avih> however, it WAS possible to use animations, on html, or addons, etc, with fast enough timer, to update EVERY frame on teh monitor, and now you can't do that.
# [19:33] <tn> avih, let's just talk about smooth scroll for now.
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# [19:33] <avih> mozilla's own?
# [19:33] <Jan> ohai.
# [19:33] <tn> avih, yes, that's all i care about.
# [19:33] <Jan> I have a small problem when I'm trying to build mozilla-central.
# [19:33] <avih> ok
# [19:34] <Jan> my terminal somehow always says "arch: posix_spawnp: egrep: Bad CPU type in executable" when I'm trying to build it. :/
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# [19:34] <avih> tn: own smooth scroll didn't get worse. it was bad and it is bad, for the same reason that the timer tries to match the monitor refresh rake, but there's a skew due to inaccuracy.
# [19:34] <avih> so no regression there.
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# [19:35] <tn> avih, well then i seemed to have massively misunderstood you.
# [19:35] <Ms2ger> 'nother Dahl?
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# [19:37] <avih> tn: the vast majority of my tests were done using smoothwheel, which has 240hz timer. i didn't compile every revision to find the faulty one, and all those earlier builds had very quick duration, so it was not noticeable.
# [19:38] <avih> i noted that when i posted my results.
# [19:38] <avih> tn: but the same glitch is also visible with the m-c builds that i compiled, and recent ones which can be modified to use long animation. and it's visible on mozilla's own scroll too.
# [19:40] <avih> tn: i must have (wrongly) deduced from: 1. smoothwheel got glitshes after the refresh invalidations but ws ok before that. 2. m-c own scroll after the refresh invalidations show the glitch. therefore: m-c builds before refresh invalidations must have been ok. I can see that's wrong now.
# [19:42] <avih> tn: the real regression would be that no html or internal code can EVER create more than 50 frames without a glich, no matter how quick the timer it uses...
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# [19:45] <Ms2ger> khuey, sorry for the demotivational reply :)
# [19:46] <tn> avih, and does making the refresh driver 16 instead of 17 fix that?
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# [19:47] <avih> tn: no, it create a "jump" every 400ms instead of a "pause" every 800ms. par. 4 has the explanation.
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# [19:48] <avih> because on 16ms, once every 25 frames the smooth scroll will be called twice for a single monitor refresh
# [19:50] <tn> avih, ok
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# [19:50] <avih> tn: also, the bug title doesn't declare it as a regression. it declares a glitch which is bad. and that's still correct.
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# [19:51] <tn> avih, bug titles and what someone said is all crap. the only thing that is important is what is happening in reality.
# [19:52] <avih> well, i know what happens in reality, and i thought i summed it up ok. but maybe i didn't.
# [19:52] <tn> avih, i can create a bug right now that says "apples are the best"
# [19:52] <tn> avih, but it has no effect on anything that matters
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# [19:53] <avih> tn: you can't tell what happens on some parallel universe as a result of that!
# [19:53] <tn> avih, yeah you did but you keep saying things like "the bug title"
# [19:53] <tn> avih, the bug title doesn't matter. we can mark that bug invalid and file a new one for the real problem. it doesn't matter.
# [19:53] <tn> bugs are free and cheap and we have an unlimited supply
# [19:53] <tn> also, crazy whack jobs can file bugs, and then do.
# [19:54] <avih> tn: i appologise for any inaccuracy in my texts. do you understad the situation now? i think i do pretty good.
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# [19:55] <tn> avih, yes i think so
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# [19:55] <avih> just to clear it up: the regression that i related to was actually only when using smoothwheel (and now i know also for other html animations). smooth scroll of mozilla didn't break. it was glitchy back then and it's glitchy now
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# [19:57] <avih> tn: so the next question is what can we do about it, if at all.
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# [20:12] <jdm> http://careers.mozilla.org/en-US/position/oZQiWfwN
# [20:12] <jdm> I am thrilled we're posting that position
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# [20:13] <glandium> jdm: april's fool
# [20:13] <jdm> D:
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# [20:16] <WG9s> If I were actually ready to retire form my real job, that might actually be a jog I would apply for. But, I really don't have time to devote to it given my real job requirements.
# [20:16] <WG9s> s/jog/job/
# [20:17] <Ms2ger> glandium, nah, the April Fools one is where we hire someone to replace bz ;)
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# [20:18] <tn> avih, i don't know, hook into vsync?
# [20:19] <avih> tn: as a long term solution, sure...
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# [20:36] <Mark_Capella> jdm: thats a real position?
# [20:36] <jdm> Mark_Capella: mhm.
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# [20:37] <Mark_Capella> jdm: do you see that kinda like project management / planning ?
# [20:37] <jdm> Mark_Capella: it's got some of that. it's also got a lot of community building, which is important.
# [20:38] <Mark_Capella> so super techie not a real requirement?
# [20:38] <Ms2ger> Hmm, a heap-allocated nsAutoTArray of nsCOMArrays
# [20:39] <jdm> Mark_Capella: there are technical aspects to it; for example, writing automated tools to improve the triage/qa workflow
# [20:39] <jdm> but sure, it's less technically-oriented than coding positions
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# [20:40] <Mark_Capella> i might like to look into that, thanks :)
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# [20:41] <Mark_Capella> ( as long as i dont have to know what a heap-allocated nsAutoTArray of nsCOMArrays is ) B)
# [20:41] <jdm> heh
# [20:41] <jdm> that is probably beyond the expected knowledge of a successful candidate
# [20:42] <Mark_Capella> >whew<
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# [20:44] <@khuey> do we actually have an office in Berlin?
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# [20:44] * @khuey didn't think that had happened yet
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# [20:52] <Ms2ger> khuey, second half 2012, so presumably not
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# [20:54] <Ms2ger> Hmm, the London office has lots of orange
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# [20:55] <@khuey> Ms2ger: yeah ... I wonder why the careers page lists Berlin and not Auckland then ...
# [20:55] * @khuey wonders if we fired everyone in NZ
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# [20:55] <Ms2ger> Bye, roc!
# [20:55] * @khuey files a bug
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# [21:05] <Wes> Hey - question - I am deploying crap on GoogleTV over the next little while. GoogleTV runs Android. Can I theoretically run a version of Firefox on it? If so.... does that version exist?
# [21:05] <jdm> Wes: mobile firefox nightly or aurora?
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# [21:07] <Wes> jdm: And ~ android-is-android enough that that should "just work"? That's very interesting!
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# [21:50] <no_gravity> Hello! A js application of mine that uses a lot of drawimage calls in a setTimeout loop has lost 75% of its performance in firefox lately (im using nightly). Any idea which change in FF might have caused that?
# [21:50] <Ms2ger> Please file a bug, Core::Canvas 2D
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# [21:51] <no_gravity> Ms2ger: i would have to make a simple example first. this is a big application. so that would need some time.
# [21:52] <Ms2ger> Yes
# [21:52] * khuey|away is now known as khuey
# [21:52] <no_gravity> Ms2ger: i thought you might have introduced some new setting. i once had it, that you introduced a setting to slow down the execution of inactive tabs. boy did i search before i found that.
# [21:53] * timA is now known as timA|away
# [21:53] <Ms2ger> As long as your page is in front, that shouldn't hurt you
# [21:54] <no_gravity> Ms2ger: yes. it was just an example. i came here because maybe you introduced something new.
# [21:54] <no_gravity> where can i download the old firefox for 64bit linux?
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# [21:56] <Ms2ger> https://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/nightly/
# [21:56] <no_gravity> thanks
# [21:58] <no_gravity> the latest stable release is 12.0b3?
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# [21:58] <Ms2ger> Stable is 11, I guess
# [21:58] <no_gravity> hmm... i looked into this directory:
# [21:59] <no_gravity> https://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/
# [21:59] <no_gravity> i thought these where stable because of "releases"
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# [22:00] <mwu> well, betas are candidates for stable releases so.. sort of?
# [22:00] <no_gravity> ok
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# [22:00] <no_gravity> 12 is still fast. 5 times faster then the current nightly.
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# [22:10] <Ms2ger> NeilAway, yt?
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# [22:12] <Ms2ger> Unrelatedly, bsmedberg?
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# [22:37] <NeilAway> Ms2ger: sorta... reading another window, why?
# [22:37] <Ms2ger> NeilAway, what kind of build fails without http://hg.mozilla.org/comm-central/rev/b1b2d61638f5 ?
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# [22:38] <NeilAway> Ms2ger: a --with-libxul-sdk build
# [22:38] <NeilAway> Ms2ger: someone actually got that to work at one point
# [22:38] <Ms2ger> Heh
# [22:38] * NeilAway uses a slightly different build
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# [23:00] <Ms2ger> mounir, ping
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# [23:13] <Reaper_man> lolololol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNSD-1w3Fto
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# [23:43] <mounir> Ms2ger: pong
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# [23:44] <Ms2ger> mounir, https://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/a1ba687fd66a#l2.51 will need to throw for unknown strings
# [23:45] <mounir> Ms2ger: why?
# [23:45] <Ms2ger> To allow moving to WebIDL enums
# [23:46] <Ms2ger> (which would throw in this case)
# [23:46] <mounir> Ms2ger: ftm, we want to allow proprietary values I think
# [23:46] <mounir> unstandard at least
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# Session Close: Mon Apr 02 00:00:00 2012

The end :)