/irc-logs / mozilla / #developers / 2013-12-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Dec 25 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #developers
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  6. # [00:08] <nemo> I have nightlies periodically taking 100% of CPU doing drawing
  7. # [00:08] <nemo> has anyone else noticed this?
  8. # [00:08] <nemo> linux
  9. # [00:08] <nemo> default settings for azure/layers forcing
  10. # [00:09] <tad> nemo: honestly, bad time to ask
  11. # [00:09] <tad> its christmas :)
  12. # [00:09] <nemo> :)
  13. # [00:10] <nemo> tad: been happening on and off for at least a couple of weeks
  14. # [00:10] <nemo> tad: I just got irritated enough to take a profile
  15. # [00:10] <tad> nemo: all employees are off this week
  16. # [00:10] <nemo> oh well :)
  17. # [00:10] <tad> and very few contributors are likely to be around
  18. # [00:10] <nemo> I saved the profile and quit
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  24. # [00:22] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/cd3e9359fd64 - Wes Kocher - Merge f-team to m-c
  25. # [00:22] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/9bfd0ab40e7e - Richard Newman - Bug 952799 - GeckoAppShell.getProxyForURI can be expensive during a pageload. r=mfinkle
  26. # [00:22] <firebot> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/275be69a7ca1 - Emma Sajic - Bug 387849 - [Australis] Remove the "Open Location..." menu item as it's no longer needed. The Location bar is now not removable so it will always be present. Hence no need for a menu
  27. # [00:22] <firebot> item that does the same thing as the bar. r=dao
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  36. # [00:27] <sprog> Hi, I'm new to FirefoxOS development and I like to contribute to the project. What sort of things can i start working on? Thanks
  37. # [00:30] <ckitching> sprog: You might get further asking in #introduction, also not on Christmas Eve (Almost everyone is away because of that)
  38. # [00:30] <ckitching> firebot: Newbie
  39. # [00:30] <firebot> ckitching: iirc, newbie is http://whatcanidoformozilla.org/ and http://developer.mozilla.org/en/Introduction
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  41. # [00:30] <ckitching> sprog: those links may prove helpful in the meantime.
  42. # [00:31] <sprog> awesome thanks. I appreciate the info
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  51. # [00:40] <bkero> http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/5535
  52. # [00:40] <bkero> Some company's producing armv6 images for a raspi
  53. # [00:40] <bkero> and this is big enough news to warrant an engadget article
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  58. # [00:46] <glandium> bkero: the "some company" is the one that maintains webkit gtk+
  59. # [00:47] <bkero> glandium: I didn't realize that.
  60. # [00:49] <glandium> they do wayland stuff too
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  63. # [00:51] <twi> collabora does some webkit gtk+ but I think the ones that do the most are igalia
  64. # [00:51] <twi> collabora does lots of wayland and media
  65. # [00:52] <twi> and some X, they've been working with the rpi foundation for a while
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  70. # [00:54] <glandium> twi: afaik, the maintainer for webkit gtk+ is gustavo noronha, and he's collabora
  71. # [00:55] <glandium> xan lopez is collabora too
  72. # [00:55] <twi> glandium nah, xan lopez is one of the igalia founders
  73. # [00:55] <glandium> oh
  74. # [00:55] <twi> and kov is at igalia too these days i think
  75. # [00:56] <twi> i was at collabora :]
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  78. # [00:59] <glandium> twi: i think kov is still collabora
  79. # [00:59] <twi> oh ok
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  81. # [01:00] <glandium> anyways, it's not just some random company that decided to "port" the gnome browser to the pi
  82. # [01:00] * Joins: {V} (V@moz-F9CA6B1C.on.nl)
  83. # [01:01] <twi> hehe yeah, they've been working with the rpi foundation on a bunch of things, first X, then wayland, then gst, now webkit
  84. # [01:01] <twi> pretty much everything :)
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  86. # [01:01] <twi> i wonder what's the status of gecko on rpi
  87. # [01:02] <twi> i think i saw some work from romaxa at some point
  88. # [01:02] <glandium> yeah, romaxa got ffos running on the pi i think
  89. # [01:02] <glandium> gecko essentially works on armv6 anyways
  90. # [01:03] <twi> but does the display stuff work well? rpi is weird in that
  91. # [01:03] <twi> (and also in media)
  92. # [01:03] <twi> although i guess ffoxos would use the rpi droid stack, which is less special
  93. # [01:03] <glandium> yeah
  94. # [01:07] <bkero> afaict it's the openmax acceleration that's the big deal
  95. # [01:07] * twi tries hard to not try to sell gst again now :P
  96. # [01:07] <bkero> I was looking for cairo backend support for openmax, but unfortunately that seems to be...nonexistent
  97. # [01:07] <twi> they support EGL
  98. # [01:08] <twi> and they worked with collabora to make gst-openmax work with their EGL
  99. # [01:08] <twi> (they = the rpi foundation)
  100. # [01:08] <bkero> Huh
  101. # [01:08] <bkero> That would be some cool work to make an egl target for firefox
  102. # [01:08] <bkero> I know cairo already supports it
  103. # [01:09] <twi> yep
  104. # [01:09] <bkero> Although I suppose the gtk support would be hardest
  105. # [01:09] <twi> the gtk wayland backend plays well with that
  106. # [01:09] <bkero> I've been following that bug for what seems like several years now.
  107. # [01:09] <twi> hehe
  108. # [01:10] <bkero> It seems like a corpse that twitches every once in a while.
  109. # [01:10] <twi> http://www.collabora.com/press/2013/05/collabora-brings-wayland-and-x11-graphics-performance-to-raspberry-pi.html
  110. # [01:10] <twi> this is from some time ago
  111. # [01:10] <twi> dunno if everything made it upstream
  112. # [01:10] <twi> but collabora is generally pretty good at that
  113. # [01:11] <bkero> That'll be amazing if it's free software.
  114. # [01:11] <bkero> Otherwise I'm not very impressed.
  115. # [01:11] <twi> considering 99.99% of what collabora does is open source, prepare to be amazed i guess :)
  116. # [01:11] <bkero> "The source code is available publicly in the main Weston repositories and on Collabora's git repositories."
  117. # [01:11] <bkero> Cool
  118. # [01:12] <bkero> I'd love if we could get in on some of that action.
  119. # [01:13] <bkero> webkit basically has a monopoly on the embedded market
  120. # [01:13] <twi> yeah
  121. # [01:13] <bkero> afaict we don't think that it's very important
  122. # [01:13] <twi> hum, ffoxos suggests otherwise?
  123. # [01:13] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/integration/mozilla-inbound/rev/84a3ca9be2eb - Neil Rashbrook - Bug 940040 Pressing and releasing "Alt" should not open the File menu on Linux r=enndeakin
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  125. # [01:14] <twi> (sure, it's a different approach)
  126. # [01:14] <twi> but yeah I think getting things working on the rpi would be great for everyone, it's a nice platform, nicer than most
  127. # [01:14] <twi> and they genuinely try to keep things open source
  128. # [01:14] <bkero> Having that be our sole effort also makes the statement that we don't care about being on other important embedded platforms.
  129. # [01:15] <bkero> We have no modern browser on a rpi. The builds in raspbian are so old they don't properly support websockets. Crimsontwins doesn't even work.
  130. # [01:15] <glandium> bkero: we have technical debt that makes it a non trivial effort
  131. # [01:16] <twi> glandium generally speaking, or rpi? (or both?)
  132. # [01:16] <glandium> twi: both
  133. # [01:16] <twi> i see
  134. # [01:17] <glandium> well, we can work around the technical debt by using the droid stuff
  135. # [01:17] <glandium> but that doesn't help much on raspbian
  136. # [01:17] <twi> which parts specifically? i started looking at the gfx bits last weekend, it wouldn't be /too/ hard to port moz2d to the rpi gfx stuff
  137. # [01:17] <twi> (but then, I don't even know if anything on linux uses moz2d/azure)
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  139. # [01:18] <twi> (…and thebes is scary)
  140. # [01:18] <bkero> I've never heard of it.
  141. # [01:21] <bkero> Looks like it's just targeting cairo
  142. # [01:21] <twi> is the thebes/cairo worth hacking on? or is it completely on the way out?
  143. # [01:21] <twi> thebes/cairo *code
  144. # [01:21] <bkero> twi: if it's on it's way out, what is it to be replaced with?
  145. # [01:22] <glandium> i think it's supposed to die
  146. # [01:22] <twi> bkero azure I suppose?
  147. # [01:22] <glandium> skia
  148. # [01:22] <twi> is skia going to be the new "basic" rendering path?
  149. # [01:23] <glandium> i think
  150. # [01:23] <bkero> https://blog.mozilla.org/joe/2011/04/26/introducing-the-azure-project/
  151. # [01:23] <bkero> says cairo is to be the failsafe path
  152. # [01:23] <bkero> and says nothing about linux
  153. # [01:23] <twi> yeah, so I guess that means skia replaces cairo
  154. # [01:23] <twi> which makes sense
  155. # [01:23] <bkero> :|
  156. # [01:24] * bkero unimpressed
  157. # [01:24] * twi could be making things up
  158. # [01:24] <bkero> skia skia draws to framebuffer devices, it isn't really meant for X11
  159. # [01:24] <bkero> nor wayland
  160. # [01:25] <twi> doesn't it have pluggable backends too?
  161. # [01:25] <bkero> Can you find an example of someone actually using one?
  162. # [01:26] <twi> android?
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  164. # [01:26] <twi> chrome
  165. # [01:27] <bkero> You mean ChromeOS?
  166. # [01:27] <bkero> IIRC that's still X11.
  167. # [01:27] <twi> no, chrome on android
  168. # [01:27] <bkero> Ah, yes. Android uses it. It just draws to a framebuffer.
  169. # [01:27] <bkero> They decided to use it because Google NIHs pretty hard, and didn't want to fix Cairo.
  170. # [01:27] <bkero> *decided to create it
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  174. # [01:28] <twi> bkero but doesn't chrome on android draw on top of surfaceflinger?
  175. # [01:30] <twi> i mean, i'm sure there's lots of NIHing going on in skia, but also there seems to be a lot of effort gone into making gecko work with thebes/cairo
  176. # [01:30] <bkero> twi: surfaceflinger is a dalvik compositor on top of skia iirc
  177. # [01:30] <twi> bkero no, surfaceflinger sits mostly outside of dalvik, and you do IPC with it in a very wayland-like way
  178. # [01:31] <bkero> Ah, research suggests it's a 'display server'
  179. # [01:31] <glandium> a lot of the google NIHing is due to licenses
  180. # [01:31] <twi> yeah
  181. # [01:32] <glandium> like apple, they don't want copyleft stuff
  182. # [01:33] <glandium> that webkit is partially lgpl is an unfortunate relic of its past as a fork of khtml
  183. # [01:33] <bkero> glandium: That makes total sense. And explains why Cairo is GPL/MPL is BSD.
  184. # [01:33] <bkero> unfortunate?
  185. # [01:33] <glandium> for them
  186. # [01:33] <glandium> i'm pretty sure they'd rather have no lgpl pieces in webkit
  187. # [01:34] <glandium> not sure how much there's left, though
  188. # [01:34] <bkero> They should have thought of that before using GPL'd code. :)
  189. # [01:34] <glandium> bkero: it's not like they had much choice...
  190. # [01:34] <twi> also with google pulling out of webkit, they have even less reasons to like lgpl
  191. # [01:34] <bkero> twi: Google pulling out of webkit?
  192. # [01:34] <twi> blink
  193. # [01:35] <twi> (and nobody jumping on webkit2)
  194. # [01:35] <twi> so yeah, they put (limited) effort in keeping something semi-opensource that realistically nobody is going to use in the next 5 years
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  196. # [01:36] <bkero> It sounds like they're really behind the cause.
  197. # [01:36] <twi> hehe
  198. # [01:38] * bkero always tries to give people the basic test of: If chromium has an open source community, try to find a binary tarball of chromium.
  199. # [01:39] <glandium> bkero: you get it from linux distros
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  201. # [01:39] <bkero> Hey, looks like they took my suggestion and put up a page.
  202. # [01:40] <bkero> https://download-chromium.appspot.com/
  203. # [01:40] <bkero> glandium: \]
  204. # [01:41] <bkero> glandium: sometimes that's not acceptable :)
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  209. # [01:42] <twi> also the googlers are often very helpful in #chromium if you're debugging something
  210. # [01:42] <twi> but also often it happens that you're fixing something that was fixed 6 months earlier and hasn't been opensourced yet
  211. # [01:42] <twi> that part sucks :)
  212. # [01:43] <glandium> huh?
  213. # [01:43] <glandium> they have a private repo and do code dumps?
  214. # [01:43] <twi> yup
  215. # [01:43] <twi> (a svn one, lulz)
  216. # [01:43] <glandium> like android
  217. # [01:43] <twi> yeah
  218. # [01:43] <twi> pretty much
  219. # [01:44] <twi> they merge to chromium way more often though
  220. # [01:44] <twi> android is a joke
  221. # [01:44] <glandium> what's wrong with those people?
  222. # [01:44] <bkero> I like all the stubbed out "value-adds" in the chromium code that get added to chrome.
  223. # [01:44] <bkero> Whenever I'm feeling glum I just look at those and get some cheap lulz
  224. # [01:45] <twi> i think the people mostly mean well, but it isn't that easy to balance product vs opening code in a large company
  225. # [01:46] * deian|away is now known as deian
  226. # [01:46] <twi> (also probably it isn't very easy to sync <a bazillion of internal tools> with a public git server)
  227. # [01:47] <bkero> That's a very good case for the argument of developing the code out in the open.
  228. # [01:47] <bkero> A lot of engineering time goes into vetting it for public consumption
  229. # [01:47] <twi> i don't disagree, as probably many chrome devs don't either :)
  230. # [01:48] <bkero> lmao, just got a new chromium build. They force setuid. The thing core dumps if you don't do this: https://code.google.com/p/chromium/wiki/LinuxSUIDSandboxDevelopment
  231. # [01:48] <twi> fun
  232. # [01:49] * Quits: tomer (tomer@moz-F45DAEFD.static.012.net.il) (Ping timeout)
  233. # [01:50] <bkero> "fun"
  234. # [01:50] * Joins: digitsm (digitsm@3B0FD887.30A8562C.C146C5E5.IP)
  235. # [01:51] <glandium> thank the linux kernel for now allowing the sandboxing system calls without admin privileges
  236. # [01:51] <glandium> s/now/not/
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  240. # [01:55] <bkero> There are some that work withou root
  241. # [01:55] <bkero> IIRC here's one. http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/~taesoo/pubs/2013/mbox/mbox-slides.pdf
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  245. # [01:58] <glandium> bkero: that requires a recent kernel ; and chromium has a seccomp based sandbox too
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  249. # [02:00] <glandium> that doesn't do process namespaces, though
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  346. # [05:16] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/integration/mozilla-inbound/rev/e013459d680e - Benjamin Peterson - Backed out changeset 84a3ca9be2eb (bug 940040) for linux bustage
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  434. # [09:37] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/integration/mozilla-inbound/rev/db720cc7a830 - Robert Longson - Bug 775730 - Address missed review comments. r=dholbert
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  463. # [10:52] <bodo> Hello, I am playing around with an app setup which completely reuses dom elements. I now ran into the problem of having ghost events and I found a workaround by using element.onclick = listener over element.addEventListener. Would you generally recommend to recreate dom elements over complete reuses?
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  470. # [11:00] <bodo> This shows what I mean: http://jsfiddle.net/6x4jt/1/
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  532. # [13:18] <Ms2ger`> From the slides of one of my classes: "In 2005 the number of (pubic) routers ..."
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  538. # [13:48] <firebot> Check-in: http://hg.mozilla.org/integration/mozilla-inbound/rev/d706ebf6e5b1 - Frank Wein - Bug 936790 - (gcc 4.5) Build error: "We don't want these libstdc++ symbols to be used" when building with --enable-stdcxx-compat and WebRTC, r=glandium
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  771. # [20:49] * Fallen|away is now known as Fallen
  772. # [20:52] <gaston> ../../dist/include/Latency.h:11:10: fatal error: 'nspr/prlog.h' file not found
  773. # [20:52] <gaston> meh.
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  845. # [22:36] <bkero> Firefox go home. You are drunk. http://imgur.com/Ahzs2a9
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  847. # [22:39] <ckitching> Well, it IS christmas.
  848. # [22:39] <ckitching> As per https://isitchristmas.com/
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The end :)