/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-03-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Mar 24 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:21] <Hixie> DanC: i think if we do end up having f2fs on telecons, we should, before such meetings, write down exactly why we want to have that meeting and make a precise list of measurable goals (just a few lines, probably). Then afterwards we can determine objectively if it was a successful meeting or not.
  4. # [00:22] <Hixie> DanC: i have spent far too many days of my life at f2f meetings and on telecons that have had a net negative effect on the group's actual work.
  5. # [00:22] <Hixie> DanC: and the whatwg has been working extremely successfully without a single meeting.
  6. # [00:22] <Hixie> (whether telecon, f2f, irc, or otherwise.)
  7. # [00:23] <mjs> whatwg has relied on backchannel meetings a fair amount though
  8. # [00:24] <Hixie> not for technical discussion
  9. # [00:24] <@DanC> I'll certainly prepare an agenda with meeting goals
  10. # [00:24] <@DanC> the goals of a 1st ftf meeting are often largely non-technical
  11. # [00:24] <mjs> really? I've discussed whatwg-technical-relevant topics with you a bunch in forums other than the mailing list
  12. # [00:25] <mjs> and you've mentioned having private meetings about technical issues w/ others
  13. # [00:25] <Hixie> oh, sure, person-to-person, in small groups, informally, at lunch, etc.
  14. # [00:25] <mjs> I do agree having an agenda is good
  15. # [00:25] <Hixie> those aren't what i could call "meetings"
  16. # [00:25] <mjs> my idea of a successful meeting is that it has input in the form of an agenda, and output in the form of decisions and action items
  17. # [00:25] <Hixie> they're just like irc conversations
  18. # [00:26] <mjs> per our charter, though, an f2f or telecon can't make decisions
  19. # [00:26] <mjs> at best it could output proposals
  20. # [00:26] <Hixie> i don't know that i've ever been in a successful meeting by my own definitions :-)
  21. # [00:26] <mjs> Hixie: at work I always ask at the end of meetings what the decisions and action items are
  22. # [00:26] <mjs> Hixie: if there regularly are none, I try to have the meeting cancelled
  23. # [00:26] <@DanC> you won't have to ask in meetings I run.
  24. # [00:27] <mjs> but I would expect the initial f2f would be more for the purpose of introducing people
  25. # [00:27] <mjs> and community-building, and other fuzzy stuff like that
  26. # [00:27] <Hixie> mjs: i think my definition of a successful meeting would be that the progress made in the meeting could not have been achieved in the manhours spent at that meeting without that meeting taking place.
  27. # [00:28] <mjs> maybe calling it "HTML Camp" would be better than calling it "HTML Working Group Face-to-Face Meeting"
  28. # [00:28] <@DanC> yes, but the reason for the fuzzy stuff is so that people feel motivated to complete their action items; i.e. they don't want to show up at a gathering of respected peers not having done what they said they'd do.
  29. # [00:28] <Hixie> mjs: so you often have successful meetings of two or three people, but above that it rapidly becomes the case that you lose productivity.
  30. # [00:28] <mjs> Hixie: I guess I have a lower bar than you, but I see your point
  31. # [00:28] <Hixie> i'd be happy to attend a meeting along the lines of a Bar Camp for HTML
  32. # [00:28] <Hixie> because there the intent is to get to know people, brainstorm ideas informally, etc
  33. # [00:28] <@DanC> I'm gonna have to learn about these open meeting things.
  34. # [00:28] <Hixie> and that's useful
  35. # [00:29] <@DanC> er... openspace?
  36. # [00:29] <mjs> I would expect with a large crowd, mingling, informal brainstorming, smaller discussions and ad-hoc mini-presentations would be more effective
  37. # [00:29] <Hixie> yeah
  38. # [00:29] <Hixie> that would be cool
  39. # [00:29] <@DanC> right
  40. # [00:29] <mjs> than traditional "sit around a table following Robert's Rules of Order"
  41. # [00:29] <@DanC> ew
  42. # [00:29] <Hixie> google has hosted camp-style meetings of 100s of people before
  43. # [00:30] <Hixie> i might be able to get us to host something like that again
  44. # [00:30] <Hixie> that's something i've been tempted to run for the whatwg before, too
  45. # [00:30] <mjs> I might even prepare a mini-presentation or two in advance
  46. # [00:30] <Hixie> yup
  47. # [00:31] <Hixie> me too
  48. # [00:31] <hsivonen> how mini is a BarCamp mini?
  49. # [00:31] <@DanC> with more than 25 or 30 people, it does become impractical to have a whole-group discussion, and you have to do presentations and break-outs and such. not my favorite kind of meeting, but can be good.
  50. # [00:31] <@DanC> mini-presentation... yeah... lightning talks are almost always good
  51. # [00:31] <Hixie> hsivonen: typically 15 people, i guess, but depends on popularity
  52. # [00:32] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
  53. # [00:32] <Hixie> DanC: a "camp" wouldn't be presentations and breakouts
  54. # [00:32] <hsivonen> Hixie: what about in # of slides and in minutes?
  55. # [00:32] <Hixie> hsivonen: 0 and 5-10 respectively, i guess
  56. # [00:32] <hsivonen> ok
  57. # [00:32] <mjs> Hixie: it can be as long or short as you want, but about what Hixie said is best
  58. # [00:32] <mjs> slides are ok if you have 'em
  59. # [00:33] <mjs> or a demo
  60. # [00:33] <Hixie> yeah
  61. # [00:33] <Hixie> demos win over slides every time at things like this
  62. # [00:33] <Hixie> :-)
  63. # [00:33] <@DanC> I don't have and 1st-hand experience with the openspace/camp stuff. I hear people rave about it, though
  64. # [00:33] <mjs> I have been to a few Bar Camp events
  65. # [00:33] <Hixie> i was a docent at scifoo camp last year
  66. # [00:33] <mjs> also the vaguely similar Super Happy Dev House
  67. # [00:34] * tylerr sighs relief.
  68. # [00:34] <mjs> one potential weakness is that if you don't know anyone it is easy to get lost without a formal agenda
  69. # [00:34] <mjs> so you need to inject social activities and meet & greet
  70. # [00:34] <tylerr> The work day is almost over. So much headache today! :(
  71. # [00:34] <Hixie> mjs: yeah
  72. # [00:35] <hsivonen> in an informal "kitchen" run by a local MUG, I had 73 slides... :-)
  73. # [00:35] <hsivonen> (about Unicode. not about conformance checking)
  74. # [00:36] <@DanC> hmm... maybe we should start a pool... who'd bet we'll be at 250 people in a week?
  75. # [00:36] <@DanC> 211 currently
  76. # [00:37] <tylerr> Members of the WG?
  77. # [00:37] <@DanC> still just 11 member orgs, though. I hope some content development companies and such will get on board
  78. # [00:37] <@DanC> yes, 211 WG participants
  79. # [00:37] <tylerr> Ah lovely.
  80. # [00:37] <@DanC> not a lot compared to 500+ subscribers to www-talk or whatwg, but lots when compared to any other W3C WG
  81. # [00:37] <Hixie> i'm kinda surprised we're only in the 200s, i was expecting all the whatwg contributors to want to take part in the htmlwg too
  82. # [00:38] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@210.84.40.143) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  83. # [00:38] <Hixie> (whatwg has just over 700)
  84. # [00:38] <Hixie> actually whatwg membership has been going up since the start of the htmlwg
  85. # [00:38] <@DanC> the hoops to jump thru naturally prune the # that join
  86. # [00:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: it doesn't explain everything, but the IBM and Nokia subscribers to the WHATWG list can't just join the HTML WG :-(
  87. # [00:39] <Hixie> yeah, kinda sad :-|
  88. # [00:39] <@DanC> very sad. I hope it's temporary
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  90. # [00:40] * @DanC wanders off to look at pictures from this week's roadtrip...
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  92. # [00:46] <tylerr> DanC: What type of content development companies?
  93. # [00:46] <tylerr> My own (Ascentium) does major enterprise content management for a number of Fortune 500's and some smaller ones as well.
  94. # [00:46] * Quits: schnitZzz (Miranda@85.181.47.73) (Ping timeout)
  95. # [00:47] <tylerr> As well as interactive marketing and enterprise solution development.
  96. # [00:49] <mjs> hsivonen: I asked Nokia's AC rep if they would be joining and he was noncommital
  97. # [00:49] * mjs would like Nokia to be on the HTML WG
  98. # [00:50] <mjs> Yahoo would be another good get
  99. # [00:50] <mjs> I don't know if there are other major web service providers that would be particularly good additions
  100. # [00:51] <mjs> then again, whether the individuals joining actually contribute is more important on some level than corporate affiliation
  101. # [00:54] <tylerr> mjs: Are you familiar with Joyent?
  102. # [00:54] <mjs> I've heard of it
  103. # [00:54] <mjs> wouldn't say "familiar"
  104. # [00:55] <tylerr> Their team is full of bright fellows.
  105. # [00:55] <tylerr> David Paul Young, Jason Hoffman.
  106. # [00:55] <tylerr> http://www.joyent.com/about/management-team/
  107. # [00:55] <tylerr> They might be good to talk with.
  108. # [00:56] <mjs> they are welcome to join
  109. # [00:57] <tylerr> I'll shoot David and e-mail. I didn't have time to draft up my e-mail to Molly Holzschlag but I will get that done this weekend.
  110. # [00:57] <mjs> you want to get her to join?
  111. # [00:58] <mjs> isn't she working for Microsoft these days?
  112. # [00:58] <tylerr> Consulting for them, yeah. I think there would be a conflict of interest, but perhaps to get her opinions on matters and such.
  113. # [00:58] <mjs> or is tha tjust a consulting gig
  114. # [00:59] <mjs> I don't care about conflict of interest
  115. # [00:59] <mjs> was just wondering if she would be held up by Microsoft's review of the charter
  116. # [00:59] <mjs> I'm sure she is aware of the WG already and knows how to join
  117. # [00:59] <mjs> since there is a link on how to join on her web site
  118. # [01:00] <tylerr> I was going to ask her if she was planning on contributing since she did indeed provide that link. :)
  119. # [01:01] <tylerr> Also if she was still in town (Bellevue) so that we could meet up and discuss some matters.
  120. # [01:01] <mjs> I think she prefers to be a meta-level standards expert
  121. # [01:01] <mjs> but who knows
  122. # [01:01] * tylerr nods.
  123. # [01:01] <tylerr> It seems that way.
  124. # [01:03] <Lachy> Molly Holzschlag told me she was goig to join already
  125. # [01:06] <tylerr> Ah nice!
  126. # [01:08] <tylerr> I'll still want to talk to her about how best to evangelize standards and accessibility internally. :-)
  127. # [01:16] <tylerr> Have a good evening everyone.
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  167. # [12:09] <glazou> hi there
  168. # [12:09] <glazou> DanC: yt ?
  169. # [12:09] * glazou suspects it's the mill of the night where DanC lives but hey, who knows
  170. # [12:09] <Mallory> Hi glazou.
  171. # [12:10] <glazou> hi
  172. # [12:10] <anne> I think it's around six in the morning there
  173. # [12:10] <anne> At least, I believe DanC is on the east coast.
  174. # [12:10] * glazou wonders what's the ratio US/Europe/Asia in the WG
  175. # [12:10] <glazou> anne: kansas right ?
  176. # [12:11] <glazou> right
  177. # [12:11] <glazou> "in the vicinity of the Kansas City International Airport"
  178. # [12:13] <Mallory> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PeopleLocation 2 US / 4 EU / 2 AS
  179. # [12:13] <Mallory> 8 on 200.
  180. # [12:13] <anne> heh
  181. # [12:14] <glazou> does it track only W3C members ?
  182. # [12:14] <glazou> we're 200 ?!?
  183. # [12:14] <glazou> well
  184. # [12:14] <glazou> when I said that conf calls are going to be hard to organize, I was far from truth, it seems...
  185. # [12:15] <Lachy> 200 people in one conference call would be impossible to handle
  186. # [12:16] <glazou> Lachy: 30 is already hard
  187. # [12:16] <glazou> we're about 25 in the old HTML 4 WG and that was often painful
  188. # [12:17] <glazou> we were sorry
  189. # [12:17] <anne> we don't really telcons anyway
  190. # [12:18] <anne> the only thing we'd be doing is introducing each other and screaming for a bit
  191. # [12:23] <glazou> during the HTML4 era, telcons did really matter
  192. # [12:23] <glazou> and the ftf meetings were incredibly productive
  193. # [12:24] * glazou thinks DanC was an excellent chairman
  194. # [12:26] * glazou leaves for lunch, will be back in a bit
  195. # [12:26] <anne> well, without telcons and f2f you can be productive as well
  196. # [12:26] <anne> see HTML5
  197. # [12:26] <glazou> bon appétit à tous
  198. # [12:26] <anne> eet smakelijk
  199. # [12:26] <glazou> I can get that easily
  200. # [12:26] <Mallory> De même.
  201. # [12:26] <glazou> smaklig måltid in swedish
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  208. # [13:41] <glazou> still no DanC ?
  209. # [13:42] <anne> i suppose you could call him
  210. # [13:42] <anne> maybe he's not online during the weekends
  211. # [13:43] <glazou> anne: not sure I want to call a US mobile phone from my european landline
  212. # [13:46] * glazou will come back later
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  228. # [16:36] <Mallory> So much people arguing for nothing.
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  230. # [16:54] <glazou> re
  231. # [16:55] <glazou> DanC: ping
  232. # [17:06] * Quits: anne (annevk@83.82.206.111) (Ping timeout)
  233. # [17:13] <@DanC> hi glazou.
  234. # [17:13] * @DanC is doing some family finance/schedule stuff
  235. # [17:15] <glazou> ok
  236. # [17:15] <glazou> DanC: want an irc chat ?
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  240. # [18:00] * anne should prolly have said nothing whatsoever there
  241. # [18:00] * anne thinks the <acronym> thread is pretty useless
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  243. # [18:01] * Mallory thinks most of threads are useless.
  244. # [18:02] <anne> heh, fair enough
  245. # [18:03] <Mallory> <video> was a good begining.
  246. # [18:03] * glazou is with Mallory here
  247. # [18:03] <glazou> Mallory: yes but too early
  248. # [18:03] <glazou> we don't even know what are the 1st deliverables of this group
  249. # [18:03] <Mallory> Sure, there is a lot of questions I did'nt had answers.
  250. # [18:04] <Mallory> (I don't even know why there is HTML 5, and 2 kinds of XHTML)
  251. # [18:04] <anne> oh, did you raise those in an e-mail?
  252. # [18:05] <Mallory> I did with some developpers, including Karl Dubost, there was a lot of sources of explanation.
  253. # [18:05] <anne> ok
  254. # [18:06] <Mallory> XHTML hadn't success, Internet Explorer don't deal with it, etc.
  255. # [18:06] <@DanC> I'm working on a teleconference this thursday. would somebody please take a quick look at http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/tel29mar/ to check for typos/thinkos before I announce it?
  256. # [18:06] <anne> also, preserving the HTML that's out there is important
  257. # [18:08] <anne> DanC, looks ok
  258. # [18:08] <@DanC> thanks
  259. # [18:08] <Mallory> Will HTML 5 keep well-formed elements and lower case attributes ?
  260. # [18:08] <anne> I'm not sure what well-formed elements means, but it will probably support them as input
  261. # [18:09] <anne> I believe that in theory it's possible to have a document look like an XML document (including one namespace declaration) and still have it be conforming to HTML5 and parseable as HTML
  262. # [18:09] <Mallory> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#h-4.1
  263. # [18:09] <Mallory> s/elements/documents
  264. # [18:10] <anne> yes, but it doesn't have any meaning in HTML documents
  265. # [18:10] * anne doesn't think well-formed is a useful concept anyway
  266. # [18:11] * anne has a planned project to work on an XML2 without that concept
  267. # [18:12] <Mallory> Maybe I should suggest this on the list.
  268. # [18:12] <anne> what?
  269. # [18:12] <glazou> anne: rofl
  270. # [18:12] <Mallory> To keep the well-formed concept.
  271. # [18:12] <Lachy> the concept of well-formed is good. Draconian error handling, on the other hand, has some problems
  272. # [18:12] <anne> it was never in HTML in the first place...
  273. # [18:13] <glazou> Anne, you want world-wide revolution ?-)
  274. # [18:13] <anne> glazou, well, I need to do some project for my university and I might as well do something useful
  275. # [18:13] <anne> s/my university/university/
  276. # [18:14] <glazou> LOL
  277. # [18:14] <glazou> we really need fortunes.w3.org
  278. # [18:15] <anne> Lachy, what would well-formed mean without draconian error handling? A synonym for conforming?
  279. # [18:15] <anne> or just syntactically conforming?
  280. # [18:15] <Lachy> well formed does mean syntactically conforming
  281. # [18:18] <Mallory> I just need well-formed documents, it's easier to parse.
  282. # [18:18] <Lachy> DanC, it would be much easier if you wrote that telcon document using UTC time, instead of saying Boston time. I have no time is without looking it up
  283. # [18:18] <anne> Mallory, for HTML you need an HTML parser
  284. # [18:19] <anne> Mallory, it's as simple as that
  285. # [18:19] <Lachy> at least with UTC, everyone can quickly work out their local time by adding their offset
  286. # [18:19] <anne> if they know their offset...
  287. # [18:19] <Lachy> if they don't know their offset, that's their problem
  288. # [18:19] * glazou goes offline for dinner
  289. # [18:19] <glazou> bye people
  290. # [18:19] <Mallory> Bye.
  291. # [18:20] * Quits: glazou (daniel@212.180.54.82) (Quit: dinner time in europe)
  292. # [18:20] <Lachy> but theirs more chance of more people knowning their offset, than being aware of Boston's timezone if they don't live in the US
  293. # [18:20] <Lachy> s/theirs/there's/
  294. # [18:21] <anne> i suppose, DanC included a link with a handy timetable though
  295. # [18:21] <Lachy> besides, they'd need to know their offset to work out their local time regardless of what timezone is given
  296. # [18:21] * anne wonders how such a telcon will go
  297. # [18:21] <Lachy> yeah, but that's inconvenient, and I still had to go to another page to find that Boston was -5:00
  298. # [18:22] <Mallory> PHP has not native HTML parser :(
  299. # [18:23] <anne> not yet
  300. # [18:25] <@DanC> Lachy, UTC might be easier for you, but the risk I'd make a mistake would go up. and a mistake by me is much more costly than the extra link you had to follow
  301. # [18:25] <gsnedders> Mallory: there's http://php-html5lib.dashslot.net/ – all it really has is parts of the WHATWG spec implemented so far, though
  302. # [18:26] <Lachy> ok, well give the UTC time in the table at the end
  303. # [18:26] <Lachy> even if you use Boston time elsewhere
  304. # [18:26] <@DanC> what are the UTC times? I can add them now
  305. # [18:26] <anne> DanC, -5 what you have now
  306. # [18:26] <Lachy> Add 5:00 to Boston's time
  307. # [18:26] <anne> right, what Lachy said
  308. # [18:27] <Lachy> oh, wait, are you in DST?
  309. # [18:27] <@DanC> the whole point is: I don't trust myself to add 5 to boston time. I've done it wrong more times than I've done it right
  310. # [18:27] <Lachy> then it's 4:00
  311. # [18:27] <@DanC> if we get 4 eyeballs to agree on the UTC time, I'll add them
  312. # [18:28] <@DanC> 11am boston is 1500UTC per http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?month=3&day=29&year=2007&p1=0&p2=137&p3=195&p4=43
  313. # [18:28] <@DanC> right?
  314. # [18:28] <Lachy> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=43 says you are in DST, and it's UTC-4:00
  315. # [18:28] <Lachy> yes, that's correct
  316. # [18:28] <@DanC> (I'm not in the Boston timezone, by the way. the W3C teleconference bridge system is, though)
  317. # [18:29] <Lachy> and how about using 24 hour time too?
  318. # [18:29] * Lachy hates am/pm notation
  319. # [18:29] <Lachy> it makes additon and subtraction difficult
  320. # [18:29] <@DanC> pls reload.
  321. # [18:29] * Lachy is sorry for being difficult himeself ;-)
  322. # [18:29] <Dashiva> DanC: If you always write down both times, it should be hard to forget to add 5 for UTC
  323. # [18:30] <@DanC> you'd be surprised how many ways there are to screw up timezone calculations
  324. # [18:30] <@DanC> I've been running international meetings for over 10 years, and I still screw it up routinely.
  325. # [18:30] <Dashiva> In those cases we fallback to the boston time and do it ourselves
  326. # [18:30] <Lachy> great, so that makes it 01:00 to 04:00 friday morning for me
  327. # [18:31] <@DanC> the world being round, it's nearly inevitable that the meeting happens in the wee hours for somebody
  328. # [18:32] <Dashiva> central europe, japan and (I think) mountain US are all 8 hour bounces
  329. # [18:32] <Lachy> if it were Friday your time, it would be Saturday morning mine, and I'd be able to stay up
  330. # [18:32] <@DanC> I might be willing to chair in the wee hours for me on occasion, but it adds risk.
  331. # [18:33] <@DanC> glazou's not free on Friday; the telcon idea came up while we were discussing his offer to host.
  332. # [18:33] <@DanC> (which offer may or may not be used, but is still there.)
  333. # [18:34] <Dashiva> Midnight US, early morning Europe, afternoon Japan. Hmm.
  334. # [18:34] <@DanC> we'll be doing another survey to pick a regular meeting time, most likely.
  335. # [18:35] <@DanC> I suppose we could pick 2 regular times, since we probably will have some irregularity to our meeting frequency anyway
  336. # [18:36] <@DanC> call them A and B; some weeks we'd use A, some B, and some neither.
  337. # [18:36] <@DanC> maybe A would be optimized for California and Japan, and B would be optimized for California and France
  338. # [18:40] * @DanC is away: family time
  339. # [18:40] <Lachy> DanC, where do I find the phone number to call for the telcon?
  340. # [18:40] <Lachy> I'm trying to use a call cost calculator to determine how much it will cost me to call
  341. # [18:43] <Dashiva> DanC: The second question in the poll seems to be missing a question, beyond the title. The explanation that no is negative works well enough, but it is somewhat subtle.
  342. # [19:04] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@71.198.189.81)
  343. # [19:16] * Quits: gavin (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  344. # [19:20] <anne> Zakim, passcode?
  345. # [19:20] <Zakim> sorry, anne, I don't know what conference this is
  346. # [19:20] <anne> Zakim, number?
  347. # [19:20] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, anne.
  348. # [19:21] <anne> Lachy, there's a UK number, a USA Boston number and one in France iirc
  349. # [19:21] * Joins: gavin (gavin@74.103.208.221)
  350. # [19:22] <anne> Lachy, the ones in UK and France are experimental iirc but they should work fine
  351. # [19:30] * Quits: icaaq (icaaaq@85.228.53.245) (Ping timeout)
  352. # [19:41] * Quits: Shunsuke (kuruma@219.110.80.235) (Quit: See you...)
  353. # [19:47] <@DanC> Zakim, room for 5?
  354. # [19:47] <Zakim> ok, DanC; conference Team_(html-wg)18:51Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 60 minutes until 1951Z
  355. # [19:47] <@DanC> Zakim, passcode?
  356. # [19:47] <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), DanC
  357. # [19:47] <@DanC> Zakim, bye
  358. # [19:47] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  359. # [19:48] <@DanC> Lachy, that's the phone number. it'll also be in the agenda that shows up at T-24hrs
  360. # [19:49] * @DanC is away: family time
  361. # [20:19] <Lachy> there's 3 phone numbers there, do I just pick any one?
  362. # [20:20] <Lachy> +1 is USA isn't it, +33 amd +44 must be UK and France
  363. # [20:21] <jmb> +44 is UK
  364. # [20:21] <jmb> (and yes, +1 is USA)
  365. # [20:38] <Deeder> +33 is France btw
  366. # [20:56] * Joins: cwahlers (Miranda@201.68.220.80)
  367. # [21:03] * Deeder is away: Être absent à partir de maintenant.
  368. # [21:03] * Deeder is now known as Deeder`aw
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  380. # [23:54] * Parts: hasather (hasather@81.235.209.174)
  381. # Session Close: Sun Mar 25 00:00:00 2007

The end :)