/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-03-30 / end

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# Session Start: Fri Mar 30 00:00:00 2007
# Session Ident: #html-wg
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# [00:36] <Hixie> can someone explain what SPAM-LOW means?
# [00:37] <cying> Hixie: i'll bet it's a spam filter adding something to the subject header
# [00:37] * Quits: gavin (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
# [00:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: my guess is that Schinkel got offended when it was pointed out to him that he both complained about mail volume and originated not-so-useful mail
# [00:38] <Hixie> cying: looks intentional to me
# [00:38] <Hixie> hsivonen: but what does it mean?
# [00:38] <cying> Hixie: oh, i guess i see it all over google mail list archives
# [00:38] <Hixie> oh
# [00:38] <Hixie> maybe it isn't then
# [00:39] <cying> Hixie: unless mike likes to talk on all of those mailing lists
# [00:39] <hsivonen> Hixie: I though he was pre-labeling his stuff as spam as a demonstration
# [00:40] <h3h> Hixie: I emailed Mike about that
# [00:40] <hsivonen> cying: I may be wrong, but those labels appeared immediately after Schinkel was contacted off-list about the mail volume
# [00:40] <h3h> I'm guessing it's his own spam software
# [00:40] <h3h> it's annoying.
# [00:40] <hsivonen> oh. ok.
# [00:40] <hsivonen> I was wrong then
# [00:41] <Hixie> strange people
# [00:41] <h3h> I think it's a simple oversight on his part
# [00:41] <Hixie> :-)
# [00:41] <h3h> though very glaring in Gmail because it destroys the threading
# [00:41] <h3h> Gmail needs to use jwz threading
# [00:41] <cying> is a canvas tag or other vector graphics feature in the charter for HTML5?
# [00:41] <hasather> seems quite common: http://www.google.com/search?q=spam-low
# [00:41] <cying> or rather the HTML WG version of HTML5?
# [00:41] <Philip> There are systems like http://www.dotnetted.co.uk/support/dotnetted/spam_virus_filtering.asp that apparently add SPAM-LOW to the subject line to indicate spamminess (I guess so mail clients can filter it easily), and presumably he doesn't remove that when responding
# [00:42] <h3h> terrible :\
# [00:42] <hsivonen> wow
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# [00:42] <h3h> i swear, 90% of developers wouldn't know good software if it hit them square in the face
# [00:43] <h3h> maybe that's a conservative estimate
# [00:44] <hsivonen> It didn't occur to me that filters would tamper with the subject instead of putting filterable flags in a custom header
# [00:45] <h3h> never underestimate the power of idiots writing software?
# [00:50] <cying> so no vector graphics in HTMLWG?
# [00:50] <cying> does that all go into SVG?
# [00:50] <Philip> cying: I think the charter isn't the place for mentioning specific features like that - but I don't see why canvas wouldn't be included, seeing as it's already specified and implemented widely
# [00:50] <Hixie> cying: it is as yet undecided
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# [00:51] <cying> Philip: Hixie: ah... i guess i'm wondering if we will rev canvas to suit the 2010 timeframe for this spec...
# [00:52] <Hixie> how do you mean?
# [00:52] <hsivonen> cying: what do mean? No <canvas>? No SVG namespace special casing with the parsing algorithm?
# [00:52] <Hixie> the timeframe in the charter is a joke
# [00:52] <Hixie> i wouldn't worry about it too much
# [00:52] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2006Nov/0001.html has a more realistic timetable
# [00:52] <cying> Hixie: i guess i mean, how forward looking should HTMLWG be w.r.t. canvas? i'd hate for this iteration of canvas to be it for the next 5 years
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# [00:53] <cying> Hixie: holy crap, that's far out in the future
# [00:54] <Hixie> cying: <canvas> is available today. over time we may add more features, that might be in html6. I expect that eventually HTML5 and HTML6 will be developed in paralell.
# [00:54] <Hixie> 2022 is not that far out in the future. consider that html4 came out 9 years ago and still hasn't reached the last step of that timetable (it's stuck in the CR step)
# [00:54] <cying> Hixie: is HTML6 in WHATWG or in HTMLWG?
# [00:54] <Hixie> (though formally the w3c has ignored that)
# [00:55] <Hixie> cying: it's a hypothetical spec, doesn't exist yet. i'm just saying that whoever does work on html6 will probably work on it in parallel with html5
# [00:55] <cying> ah
# [00:55] <Hixie> near the end of the cycle they are bound to overlap
# [00:56] <hsivonen> Hixie: IIRC, at one point tantek was extracting testable assertions from HTML 4.01. did that do anywhere? did the WG drop the ball?
# [00:56] <Hixie> hsivonen: you're asking if the xhtml wg dropped the ball on something? do i really need to answer that question?
# [00:56] <hsivonen> no :-/
# [00:57] <hsivonen> but tantek *was* extracting testable assertions, right?
# [00:57] <Hixie> yeah
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# [00:58] <Philip> cying: The canvas implementations are already being extended before any standardisation, e.g. with 3D in Firefox/Opera, so I'd expect it's unlikely that we'll be stuck with unchanging implementations for five years
# [00:59] <cying> Philip: ah
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# [01:05] <cying> Philip: i wonder where the best place to influence implementations would be then...
# [01:05] <cying> since after reading Canvas, there might be a few things i'd change to help improve it
# [01:07] <Philip> The WHATWG mailing list seems to be the place for that kind of discussion at the moment
# [01:07] <cying> ah ha!
# [01:07] <cying> (fires up mailing list manager)
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# [01:13] <mjs> hsivonen: sort of
# [01:13] <mjs> hsivonen: if you look at the html4 test suite, it includes a methodology document that explains what procedure he supposedly used
# [01:14] <mjs> hsivonen: but if you look at the testable assertions cited for test cases, some of them are not recognizable as such even with his extended semantics
# [01:16] <mjs> hsivonen: for instance some test cases cite sentences that appear to be conformance requirements for content, or that use the word "may"
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# [01:23] <Hixie> if you want to read the html4 spec with an eye to making a test suite or an interoperable implementation, you'll need so much salt that it'll have a distint affect on the worldwide salt prices.
# [01:25] * DanC is away: family time
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# [01:26] <mjs> I get no end of amusement that the definition of "conforming user agent" at http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/conform.html contradicts itself
# [01:26] <cying> i sense some frustration
# [01:26] <Hixie> cying: nah, more amusement now. these problems are mostly solved in html5.
# [01:27] <cying> Hixie: indeed (sadly looks at the SVG spec)
# [01:27] <cying> Hixie: maybe WHATWG can start a SVG2 spec?
# [01:28] <mjs> SVG5 is further down the agenda
# [01:28] <cying> mjs: really?
# [01:29] <mjs> cying: well, there's no real plan for it, but if the SVG WG doesn't fix it, someone else will have to
# [01:30] * cying rolls up his sleeves.
# [01:32] <Lachy_> cying, there's also some talk of XML5, HTTP5 and everything else that's currently broken
# [01:32] <cying> interesting!
# [01:32] <Lachy_> We're moving from Web 2.0 to 5.0!
# [01:32] <cying> very nice
# [01:35] <Lachy_> mjs: what is it exactly that's contradictory in that? Is it just the statment about arbitrary limits that contradicts the capacities in the SGML Decl?
# [01:41] <Hixie> Lachy_: it says:
# [01:41] <Hixie> Lachy_: "A conforming user agent for HTML 4 is one that observes the mandatory conditions ("must") set forth in this specification, including the following points: A user agent should..."
# [01:42] <Hixie> should means you don't have to do it if you have good reason not to. but it says if you don't do it you're not conforming.
# [01:42] <mjs> Lachy_: it says a user againt must follow all mandatory conditions including... and then lists two that by the keywords are non-mandatory
# [01:42] <mjs> there's also a "recommend" in their three bullet points
# [01:43] <Hixie> yeah
# [01:43] <mjs> so I don't know how you would ever decide if those are valid testable assertions
# [01:44] <Hixie> i do
# [01:44] <Hixie> you'd check the html5 spec :-D
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# [02:18] <karl> 243 group participants,
# [02:20] <Dashiva> Strength in numbers
# [02:21] <karl> Dashiva: more likely temperatures :p
# [02:21] <Dashiva> Do we invited experts still make up 90% of the group?
# [02:22] <karl> * 243 group participants,
# [02:22] <karl> * 243 in good standing,
# [02:22] <karl> * 40 participants from 13 organizations
# [02:22] <karl> * 203 Invited Experts
# [02:22] * Joins: Grauw (ask@202.71.92.74)
# [02:22] <karl> 84%
# [02:31] * Joins: DougJ (djones4@74.76.23.86)
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# [02:47] <karl> DougJ: http://www.w3.org/2003/glossary/ W3C Glossary
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# [02:52] <Grauw> I'm really starting to use the labeling function in Thunderbird for the first time, to mark posts that I want to reference for later, when the actual discussion will be taking place ^_^
# [02:54] <karl> :)
# [02:55] <DougJ> karl: yes, I have been there. Am also reviewing again HTML 4.01 and WHATWG Web App 1.0 docs for definitions. Am rethinking need, but believe statement of general definitions of certain terms and creating HTML WG specific definitions will help focus some discussions. Just my looking at definitions has shown me that even different dictionaries from the same publisher can have differing definitions for the same word.
# [02:55] <DougJ> Probably won't decide for a couple of days.
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# [02:56] <karl> DougJ: the best in this case is to collect definitions from the glossary and from hixie's spec and then draft a document and send it to public-html@w3.org for comments
# [02:57] <karl> You can even do let's say 5 words a day and in one week you will have a glossary of 25 words.
# [02:57] <karl> Small tasks every day, less than 30 minutes. 5 minutes by word.
# [02:58] <karl> writing including
# [02:58] <karl> including writing I meant
# [03:00] <DougJ> Good idea. Been doing what I have in blocks and dribbles anyway. Plan to include problem and solution statements as well.
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# [04:20] <glazou> hi
# [04:23] <karl> hi daniel
# [04:23] <karl> glazou: you got mail ;)
# [04:28] <glazou> just answered
# [04:29] <glazou> and hi:)
# [04:29] <Grauw> oh, how wonderful is that latest message on the list :)
# [04:29] <glazou> karl: what's the cheapest online retailer for digital camera stuff in japan ?
# [04:29] <Grauw> *cough* *cough*
# [04:29] <glazou> Grauw: isn't it ?-)
# [04:30] <Grauw> :)
# [04:30] <glazou> I don't know who is this John Bachir but I think he could leave the group...
# [04:31] <Grauw> yeah
# [04:32] <MikeSmith> glazou - the online electronics retailers here in japan are all in a competitive steel-cage death match to undercut each others' business in every way they can, so their base prices are mostly the same
# [04:32] <MikeSmith> Yodobashi, BicCamera
# [04:32] <glazou> ok so what's the best ?
# [04:32] <glazou> biccamera, I was there
# [04:32] <glazou> what a mess :-)
# [04:32] <glazou> but I did appreciate the miniskirts of the waitresses
# [04:33] <MikeSmith> the best is whichever one, when you go into the shop and haggle with them, gives you the most free stuff when you buy somehing :)
# [04:33] <MikeSmith> ? I must have missed the miniskirted waitressess at biccamera
# [04:33] * MikeSmith makes mental note
# [04:34] <karl> the latest message should just be ignored, IMHO. it
# [04:34] <karl> Yoddobashi, or biccamera
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# [04:34] <karl> or glazou you can try to convince me to bring something ;) if I come in France in May ;)
# [04:35] <mjs> hello
# [04:38] * Lachy_ replied to John Bachir's e-mail
# [04:38] <mjs> good reply
# [04:38] <Lachy_> thanks
# [04:41] * Parts: DougJ (djones4@74.76.23.86)
# [04:42] <glazou> Grauw, Lachy, I am about to answer too
# [04:42] <glazou> karl: UUUUUUUH :-)
# [04:44] <glazou> Lachy_: sent
# [04:46] <glazou> browsing biccamera.com is deliciously disorienting :-)
# [04:50] <marcos_> OMG! John should keep email like that to himself.
# [04:51] <glazou> yes
# [04:51] * marcos_ really wanted to use lots of swear words then....
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# [04:52] <glazou> marcos_: I used swear words when I read his prose, then cooled down and replied calmly :-)
# [04:52] <glazou> karl: biccamera.com is not much cheaper than french prices on a 30D body for instance ; not worth the pain
# [04:53] <karl> ok :)
# [04:53] <marcos_> hehe, yeah. I won't even bother replying to that... I think "borderline bigotry" captures it nicely.
# [04:53] <glazou> karl: ~945EUR at bic, 999 here
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# [04:57] <karl> hmm indeed
# [04:59] <glazou> tjena chaals
# [05:00] * glazou still needs to find a really good yakitorin paris
# [05:00] <glazou> s/yakitori/yakitori in
# [05:06] <glazou> karl: http://www.w3.org/2007/05/06-AC-agenda.html is unreachable for me
# [05:06] <glazou> no credentials
# [05:06] * glazou wonders if he is the only ac-rep in this case :-)
# [05:07] <MikeSmith> glazou - I noticed many many yakitori places in Montparnasse, near where the theatres are
# [05:07] <karl> glazou: indeed.
# [05:07] <karl> the URI has been published in a member area?
# [05:07] <MikeSmith> I don't know if they are good because I didn't try them. I found a really great Lebanese place those
# [05:07] <glazou> MikeSmith: unfortunately, there are a lot of "japanese" restaurants in paris in fact held by chinese people ; food is not that good there
# [05:08] <glazou> karl: sent by steve bratt to AC Members list
# [05:08] <karl> ;)
# [05:08] <karl> then I will switch the ACL
# [05:08] <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-members/2007JanMar/0076.html
# [05:10] <karl> glazou: done
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# [05:10] <karl> merci pour la notification ;)
# [05:12] <glazou> np
# [05:13] * glazou is glad he can now read the doc :-)
# [05:15] * glazou starts wondering if he should not be sleeping atm
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# [06:20] <heycam> "we have many beautiful eggs inside the incubator, but the chickens outside are all running around with their heads cut off"
# [06:20] <heycam> i like the imagery :)
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# [06:30] <Lachy_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Mar/0006.html -- I didn't realise that message was public yesterday, I thought it was only in the member archives: "No one is going to put the namespace on quirks HTML surely?"
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# [07:27] <tylerr> Hello all!
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# [07:43] <Lachy_> Hi tylerr
# [07:44] <tylerr> Hey Lachy_.
# [07:46] <tylerr> Winding down for the evening. I have about three meetings tomorrow with my company about my involvement with the WG. Looks like they're very interested in supporting me.
# [07:46] <tylerr> So a small victory in my world. :-)
# [07:47] <Lachy_> nice
# [07:48] <Lachy_> in what ways will they be supporting you?
# [07:48] <tylerr> I'm guessing giving me more forecasted time to work with the WG, potential travel, suggestion/input sessions, etc.
# [07:49] <tylerr> Right now I have "any free time" to work on it, but now I'm looking to get ~4 hours a week of dedicated involvement.
# [07:55] <Zeros> nice
# [07:55] <tylerr> Ah hey Zeros. How's your day been?
# [07:55] <Zeros> And three meetings?
# [07:56] <Zeros> they better provide lunch
# [07:56] <tylerr> Oh they are. :-)
# [07:57] <Zeros> tylerr, pretty good actually. Department interviewed another graphic design intern today.
# [07:57] <Zeros> I think that puts the total at 8 so far; no one stellar unfortunately
# [07:57] <tylerr> I have no clue what my availability will now look like though, apparently our divisions head of technology said, "Come to him for your accessibility and standards needs." There goes all my slacker time. ;-)
# [07:57] <tylerr> Wow, 8 interviews?
# [07:59] <tylerr> We're interviewing web dev's right now for our team and we had a couple we wanted to take on but they were too "new" and we wouldn't have enough time to ramp them up until July.
# [07:59] <tylerr> "new" meaning they had the skill, just not the experience. :-( I hate having to turn away talent.
# [07:59] <tylerr> Luckily I wasn't involved in the interviews.
# [08:00] <Zeros> I don't usually sit in on them since I'm the development lead for our team, not directly related to graphics.
# [08:00] <tylerr> Ah yeah, it's always good to get a sense of personality though, would you be working with them in any fashion?
# [08:01] <Zeros> Probably for branding purposes and on site at conferences. We're the Graphics & Conferences team
# [08:01] <tylerr> Ahh yeah I remember you mentioning that.
# [08:02] <tylerr> Are these college interns or recent grads?
# [08:02] <Zeros> Mix of both, I think the one today was a recent grad.
# [08:03] <tylerr> It's always an issue of, "Do you take the eager student willing to do anything, or the recent grad needing that critical stepping stone into the professional world?"
# [08:04] <Zeros> The big killer so far is people being shy. Its a real interview killer if you don't talk and ask questions.
# [08:05] <tylerr> So true! If the interview doesn't flow like a conversation, I instantly feel distant from the person to a certain degree.
# [08:08] <Zeros> yeah
# [08:10] <krijnh> Mornin'
# [08:10] <tylerr> Hi krijnh.
# [08:11] <krijnh> Anything interesting happened here?
# [08:11] <tylerr> Just Zeros and myself chatting about hiring.
# [08:11] <krijnh> Yeah, I read it :)
# [08:11] <tylerr> Yep, that quiet in here tonight. :-) How are you doing?
# [08:12] <krijnh> Pretty good, downloading mails so I can read them in the bus
# [08:12] <tylerr> Ah great! All the WG chatter?
# [08:12] <krijnh> Only 55 today
# [08:12] <krijnh> Yeah
# [08:13] <tylerr> I need to spend a good while reading up on all these technologies that are flying around the mailing list.
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# [08:13] <krijnh> You'll get those 4 hours extra ;)
# [08:14] <tylerr> I'm *very* new to the engineering of HTML so research and self-education is my key goal right now.
# [08:14] <tylerr> Thanks! I hope so!
# [08:14] <krijnh> Brb
# [08:15] <tylerr> Sure thing. :-)
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# [08:41] <Lachy_> karl: you misread my e-mail
# [08:41] <karl> :)
# [08:41] <karl> explain
# [08:42] <Lachy_> initially, when feeds starting getting popular and autodiscovery was developed...
# [08:42] <Lachy_> it was necessary to link to the feed using <a href> in the body, but to also provide <link rel=alternate href=x> in the head for autodiscovery
# [08:42] <karl> nope
# [08:43] <karl> It was not necessary
# [08:43] <karl> :)
# [08:43] <karl> So I do not misread it
# [08:43] <karl> it was always a choice
# [08:43] <Lachy_> for compatibility with UAs that didn't support autodiscovery, the <a> provided a fallback
# [08:43] <karl> choice of the author
# [08:43] <karl> :)
# [08:44] <karl> exactly like when you decide to serve a content as application/xhtml+xml
# [08:44] <Lachy_> how so?
# [08:45] <tylerr> Graceful degredation and such.
# [08:45] <karl> what you express has never been a a requirement of the language :)
# [08:46] <Lachy_> while you can technically omit the link from the body, I don't think it's a good idea
# [08:46] <karl> it is exactly like saying, YOU MUST have a menu to navigate through the section of your site.
# [08:46] <karl> Lachy: I always did and we always do.
# [08:46] <Lachy_> I never said it was a requirement of the language, though perhaps I could have been clearer about it being a requirement for compatibility and usability
# [08:46] <karl> and it's why I want to have the *choice*
# [08:47] <Lachy_> of course, you still have the choice. I just think <a> is the better choice
# [08:47] <karl> When we are discussing HTML requirements design principles. I want flexibility
# [08:47] <karl> not constraints in one way in another
# [08:47] <karl> being able to express in body ! cool
# [08:47] <karl> being able to express in head ! cool
# [08:47] <karl> :)
# [08:47] <karl> that's my point
# [08:48] <Lachy_> fine
# [08:48] <karl> flexibility for the authors ;)
# [08:49] <karl> It's like tags in content is for me a very bad choice for content design.
# [08:49] <karl> Usually I put a display: none if I put them in the body.
# [08:49] <Lachy_> what do you mean?
# [08:49] <tylerr> Tags in content?
# [08:49] <Lachy_> like rel=tag?
# [08:49] <tylerr> Do you mean things like Microformats?
# [08:50] <karl> rel= tag
# [08:50] <karl> Pros: local ! that's cool
# [08:50] <karl> Cons: Visible ! that's bad
# [08:50] <Lachy_> They absolutely belong in the body
# [08:50] <Lachy_> and they absolutely must be visible. that was a consious design decisions
# [08:51] <karl> I don't make visible by choice
# [08:51] <karl> display: none
# [08:51] <Lachy_> that prevents a user from following them to see more info tagged the same
# [08:51] <karl> I don't put link to them as well ;)
# [08:52] <karl> you put link to where ?
# [08:52] <Lachy_> what the?
# [08:52] <Lachy_> I don't understand your sentence
# [08:52] <karl> I do not put links on keywords.
# [08:52] <tylerr> That would hamper the whole autodiscovery technology wouldn't it? (I'm none too familiar with all this so do be gentle on me, hah!)
# [08:53] <Lachy_> rel=tag is designed to be used on links. Where else do you use it?
# [08:53] <karl> I usually do <span class="keyword">fleur, campagne</span>
# [08:53] <karl> but no link on them
# [08:53] <Lachy_> then what's the point of the keywords?
# [08:53] <karl> categorizing my content to create indexes
# [08:54] <karl> I was about to say
# [08:54] <Lachy_> That technique can be considered spam by search engines
# [08:54] <Lachy_> creating indexes with your own custom tools?
# [08:54] <karl> yes
# [08:54] <karl> choices
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# [08:55] <tylerr> Isn't that what these site map tools are for?
# [08:55] <karl> tylerr: what do you mean?
# [08:55] <tylerr> Or are you looking to build personal indexes of your content?
# [08:55] <karl> tylerr: yes the second suggestion
# [08:55] <Lachy_> but creating your own method to tag content loses all the benefits that a widely deployed and interoperable solution like rel=tag offers
# [08:56] <karl> Lachy: rel=tag. where do you link to?
# [08:56] <tylerr> Sites like Technorati and others depend on the rel=tag to help build out their results and the like correct?
# [08:57] <Lachy_> on my blog, rel=tag gets added to the category links at the end of each post
# [08:57] <Lachy_> those link to the category pages on my own site
# [08:57] <Lachy_> I'm too lazy to bother with technorati
# [08:58] <karl> Lachy: in fact, I think you did the right choice
# [08:58] <Lachy_> and rel=tag is only inlcuded because WordPress adds them by default
# [08:58] <karl> to not link to technorati
# [08:58] <Lachy_> it wasn't really a choice, more of a motivation issue
# [08:58] * tylerr chuckles.
# [08:58] <karl> Lachy: exactly rel="tag" is something practical for the author, or the CMS
# [08:58] <karl> to build indexes
# [08:59] <karl> the link to a specifically search web services is somehow not good in my way of thinking.
# [08:59] <karl> but a possibility
# [09:00] <karl> :) s/services/service/
# [09:00] <Lachy_> well, the method does create a barrier to entry for competitors to compete with technorati, since there are so many that use technorati's tag space
# [09:00] <karl> plus the fact, that this company can disappear etc.
# [09:01] <karl> and then the content becomes very difficult to update in the case of static content.
# [09:01] <karl> creating legacy linking
# [09:01] <karl> the same decision motivates me to not do links to amazon for example for books
# [09:02] <karl> I give the isbn and I wish that browsers gives the choice when they see urn:isbn to go to the bookshop of your choice, not the one of the author.
# [09:02] <karl> it could be a preference in browser
# [09:03] <karl> when you see rel="tag", please propose technorati links
# [09:03] <karl> when you see cite="urn:isbn:..." please propose amazon
# [09:03] <tylerr> Well, the idea is that it isn't a Technorati-based tag, it's a MicroFormat.
# [09:04] <karl> tylerr: yes. it's why I like the decision of Lachy to link to its own indexes
# [09:04] <Ashe> since uFs will be in FF3, it probably will be a choice in the browser
# [09:04] <karl> I think it is a better choice on long term
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# [09:07] <Lachy_> urn:isbn could and should be implemented as a browser extension as a proof of concept, then get people to start using the ISBN URIs, and then browsers will implement natively
# [09:07] <karl> yep
# [09:07] <Ashe> hm
# [09:07] <Lachy_> Google AutoLink recognises plain text ISBNs in content and links those
# [09:08] <karl> at least I'm (was) using it in my content
# [09:08] <Ashe> yes its easy for isbns
# [09:08] <Ashe> since they have checksums
# [09:08] <karl> was because I stopped blogging ;)
# [09:08] <Ashe> so you can validate whether it's really a isbn/issn or not
# [09:10] <karl> <blockquote class="citation" cite="urn:isbn:2-13-045669-3">
# [09:10] <karl> <p>Et les mots vont devant, toujours devant, attirant, entraînant, encou
# [09:10] <karl> rageant—clamant à la fois l'espérance et l'orgueil. La rêverie parlée des
# [09:10] <karl> ....
# [09:10] <karl> I was doing this kind of things
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# [09:14] <hsivonen> I think non-dereferencable URIs confuse things
# [09:14] <hsivonen> If I click a link, the book won't appear on my desk
# [09:14] <hsivonen> broken link
# [09:15] <karl> hsivonen: note that it was the cite attribute.
# [09:15] <karl> and note also
# [09:16] <karl> that when you click a link to amazon, the book doesn't apper on your desk either ;)
# [09:16] <karl> What I want
# [09:16] <karl> is a proxy
# [09:16] <karl> as a browser user I want to have the choice of the store
# [09:17] <karl> even more in an international context.
# [09:17] <karl> I want to be able to send the reference to my local store
# [09:17] <karl> and not amazon us with delivery costs
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# [09:24] <karl> ok time to go back home. 1h30 of train :)
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# [10:40] <glazou> bonjour
# [10:45] <edas> bonjour
# [10:48] <tylerr> Hello.
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# [11:09] <anne> morning
# [11:11] <glazou> hi anne
# [11:12] <hsivonen> bonjour
# [11:13] <anne> so I haven't checked by inbox in detail but are those 150 messages all from public-html?
# [11:13] * Quits: gavin (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
# [11:13] <anne> my @opera.com inbox, that is
# [11:14] <hsivonen> anne: I think there have been less messages than that
# [11:15] <anne> k
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# [11:28] * anne wonders how "BTW, I followed WHATWG and had intended to bring up several issues, especially with WebForms, but was unable to find the time. I'm hoping this WG will allow me to address those issues." makes sense
# [11:30] <beowulf> perhaps this group will organise his life better
# [11:31] * anne deleted lots of e-mail and catched up
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# [11:39] <anne2> Seems that Microsoft is in the XHTML2 WG: http://www.w3.org/mid/60DA5824FF215047A47F7232D9F1627C678FA1073C@NA-EXMSG-C105.redmond.corp.microsoft.com
# [11:39] * anne2 is now known as anne
# [11:45] <hsivonen> anne: whoa! is the XHTML2 WG finally losing its faith in doctypes?
# [11:46] <hsivonen> OTOH: "I understand the arguments about XML Schema, and I don't care."
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# [11:58] <anne> hsivonen, I think they still believe in DOCTYPEs
# [11:58] <anne> hsivonen, in fact, they think DOCTYPEs are the only means to *distinguish* between the various versions of XHTML 1.x
# [11:58] <Lachy> yeah, they still believe in DOCTYPEs. Apparently, they're the only way to for browsers to know what type of document their reading
# [11:58] <anne> hsivonen, they're clearly lost
# [12:00] <Lachy> I just can't get over the fact that Stephen clearly did absolutely no research before making a claim that no pages on the web using quriks mode also use the xmlns
# [12:00] <anne> They're just out of touch with reality
# [12:01] <anne> The only thing they seem to have been doing over the past few years is dreaming about frameworks and having telcons and F2Fs to specify them and implement them in experimental products that don't deal with the web.
# [12:01] <anne> You know, leading the web to its full potential
# [12:07] <hsivonen> I wonder if the would be different wrt. XHTML today if important sites like O'Reilly hadn't jumped the gun with XHTML before Netscape 6 shipped...
# [12:07] <hsivonen> s/the would/the Web would/
# [12:08] <Lachy> I wonder if it would be different if there was no Appendix C that people could use to justify breaking the rules with.
# [12:09] <anne> People don't need specs to justify breaking rules.
# [12:09] <anne> They just do it.
# [12:10] <beowulf> we break the rules because we can, because it's easier and nothing punishes us for doing so
# [12:10] <Lachy> I know that, but the fact that it's so widely used as a way to promote xhtml-as-tag-soup
# [12:10] <Lachy> without the promotion, do you think it would be nearly as bad?
# [12:12] <anne> XHTML was a good excuse to let people learn new stuff (CSS)
# [12:12] <hsivonen> well, I think it does make a difference if the W3C advertises that you can use XHTML 1.0 today (back in way back when) or markp writes about Atom 0.3 on xml.com as if Atom was done (no offense to markp intended, just observing)
# [12:12] <anne> It was the wrong excuse, but it certainly worked pretty well
# [12:12] <anne> If we had HTML5 instead I suppose it might have worked as well.
# [12:13] <Lachy> I don't see how or why XHTML could be used as an excuse to promote CSS. I chose to learn CSS on its own merits, not because it somehow went with XHTML
# [12:14] <anne> What goes for you isn't necessarily true for the rest of the world
# [12:14] <Lachy> I realise that
# [12:14] <anne> Just see the arguments lots of people are using for using XHTML
# [12:14] <hsivonen> Lachy: the zeldman posse was very good at marketing CSS and XHTML as a package. too bad that there was some collateral damage
# [12:15] <anne> anyway, no power supply here, got to move
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# [12:37] <anne> XForms should btw be completely public soon as well: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xforms/latest
# [12:37] <anne> Same for XHTML2
# [12:37] <hsivonen> nice
# [12:39] <anne> There's some deadline in April at which point the member only lists will no longer function.
# [12:53] <Lachy> I wonder if it would be worth subscribing to public-xhtml2
# [12:54] <anne> You can't
# [12:54] <Lachy> I'd have to join the XHTML2 WG :-)
# [12:54] <anne> You'd have to join the WG and I'm not sure it's as trivial as joining the HTML WG
# [12:57] <Lachy> possibly. though the RSS feed would keep me entertained anyway
# [12:58] <glazou> Lachy: you're drunk or what ?-)
# [12:59] * glazou imagines steven facing ten demands from whatwg people to join the xhtml2 wg :-)
# [12:59] * glazou laughs
# [13:00] <anne> hehe
# [13:00] <Lachy> glazou, I just think it'd be funny to debate some things with them sometimes
# [13:00] <glazou> last time we did, steven tried to kill the style attribute...
# [13:01] <glazou> so I don't really think it'd be funny
# [13:01] <glazou> I mean spending a few hours in a nest of trolls is certainly not my dream activity
# [13:01] <anne> Hixie killed it except on <font>
# [13:01] <glazou> that's a big mistake
# [13:02] <glazou> a VERY big one
# [13:02] <glazou> and the price to pay will be very expensive
# [13:02] <glazou> html5 has no more style attribute ?
# [13:02] <anne> it has <font style>
# [13:02] <glazou> only on font ?
# [13:02] <anne> yes
# [13:02] <glazou> OMG
# [13:03] <Lachy> wow, killing the style attribute must be one of the only sensible things he's wanted to do
# [13:03] <glazou> anne: I bet browser vendors will let the style attibute live forever
# [13:03] <anne> sure
# [13:03] <anne> browsers must support it
# [13:03] <glazou> so Hixie's choice is counterproductive
# [13:03] <anne> but authors must not use it
# [13:04] <glazou> _never_, hear me well, _never_ say what authors should or should not do
# [13:04] <Lachy> there are no legitimate reasons for authors to use it (outside of test cases)
# [13:04] <anne> browsers will likely "support" <acronym> forever
# [13:04] <glazou> authors will ALWAYS think of weird use cases you never thought of
# [13:04] <glazou> so let authors define what's usable or not
# [13:04] <anne> when they do we'll change the spec
# [13:04] <Lachy> and the solution to none of them will be the style attribute
# [13:04] <glazou> anne: exactly my point, counterproductive and silly
# [13:04] <anne> note that <style> can be used as <style scoped> now which should solve most of the use cases
# [13:05] <glazou> the style attr is here to stay anyway
# [13:05] <glazou> anne: nope
# [13:05] <glazou> anne: because the web is full of style attributes and people are used to it
# [13:05] <glazou> killing it kills backwards compat
# [13:05] <anne> the web is full of syntax errors too
# [13:05] <anne> killing it in conformance doesn't kill backcompat perse
# [13:05] <glazou> do you notice them when you browse the web ?
# [13:06] <glazou> syntax errors in the web are our burden
# [13:06] <anne> there's a difference between conformance and UA requirements
# [13:06] <glazou> we'll live forever with them
# [13:06] <anne> the style attribute is our burden as well
# [13:06] <glazou> it's a useful one for wysiwyg copy/paste
# [13:06] <glazou> and debug
# [13:06] <glazou> anyway, I have to run, bye people
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# [13:07] <Lachy> copy and paste in wysiwig that uses the style attribute is broken by design
# [13:08] <anne> copy and paste is bbd
# [13:08] <anne> see some article hsivonen wrote
# [13:11] <Lachy> anne, where do I find those articles? I can't see them on hsivonen.iki.fi
# [13:12] <anne> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/kesakoodi/clipboard/
# [13:12] <Lachy> thanks
# [13:14] <hsivonen> I think Hixie's current definition of <font> is doing mindshare damage and style='' should be allowed on every element in HTML5
# [13:16] <hsivonen> for the record, everything I wrote in that article about new interoperable Cocoa clipboard code for Gecko never made it to Gecko, because the module owner blocked it
# [13:16] <Lachy> hsivonen, do you think font should be dropped completely or just redefined?
# [13:17] <hsivonen> Lachy: I'm leaning towards allowing color for emphasis
# [13:17] * hsivonen hides
# [13:17] <Lachy> what? We have <em> for that
# [13:18] <anne> It's an interesting idea at least.
# [13:18] <hsivonen> Lachy: here's a real-world page my mom wrote: http://www.helsinki.fi/~rkosken/kirjallisuus/hc.html
# [13:18] <hsivonen> I should probably dissect the markup of that page and blog about it
# [13:19] <hsivonen> as a case study of what semantic stuff worked and what didn't after the HTML-literate son explained stuff and wrote a template and a style sheet to go with it
# [13:20] <Lachy> did she hand code or use an editor?
# [13:20] <hsivonen> Lachy: for additional effect, check out the usage of <i> vs. <em> and try to come up with the explanation
# [13:20] <hsivonen> Lachy: Dreamweaver
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# [13:22] <Lachy> she seems to have used them interchangebly
# [13:22] <hsivonen> Lachy: why do you think that happened?
# [13:23] <Lachy> because they look the same
# [13:23] <anne> Hmm, lets hope <dfn> will not mean emphasis
# [13:23] <hsivonen> yes and they were also made with the same UI gesture
# [13:23] <anne> or <var>
# [13:23] <hsivonen> the parts with <i> were written in Dreamweaver 4
# [13:24] <hsivonen> the parts with <em> are updates made with Dreamweaver MX, which has more semantic defaults
# [13:24] <Lachy> right, but <i> shouldn't even have a UI. dreamweaver is broken in that respect
# [13:24] <anne> heh
# [13:24] <anne> "more semantic"
# [13:25] <Lachy> that's because UI designers seem to fail to understand that using <i> on the UI and inserting <em> is not ok
# [13:25] <hsivonen> Lachy: your UI argument is like the 2002 me speaking. I got over it.
# [13:25] <ROBOd> hello guys! i've been reading the backlog and this discussion is interesting. removing the style attribute seems to contradict the idea Hixie has in other cases: if everybody uses something, lets put it in the spec (remember the discussion about w3c events model versus IE events model).
# [13:26] <Lachy> I just don't get why they insist on putting <b> and <i> on the UI for HTML editors. They're the first things I'd take out
# [13:26] <ROBOd> why does he want to remove style?
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# [13:26] <anne> it's presentational
# [13:26] <anne> should be pretty obvious
# [13:27] <hsivonen> Lachy: because normal users want italic and bold but don't care to specify *why* they want it in a particular instance
# [13:27] <hsivonen> Lachy: my mom just hits command-i in Word. in Dreamweaver, she does the same
# [13:27] <ROBOd> personally, i believe style has good use cases
# [13:27] <Lachy> like what?
# [13:28] <ROBOd> it is generally bad to be used (and most pages use it wrong), but sometimes it's useful to override the general styling with a style attribute
# [13:29] <Lachy> ok, but what's the actual use case?
# [13:29] <ROBOd> hmm... it sounds contradicting ... why is font allowed then?
# [13:29] <Lachy> because Hixie insisted on it
# [13:30] <anne> <font> is allowed for WYSIWYG editors
# [13:30] <ROBOd> it's *very* presentational, so to speak
# [13:30] <hsivonen> Lachy: well, with the CSS1 definition of display: block; and floats, you'd need it for <figure>-like wrappers for images
# [13:30] <ROBOd> Lachy: because Hixie insisted can be used for anything
# [13:30] <anne> it's in its own special section atm
# [13:30] <ROBOd> (the argument, that is)
# [13:31] <Lachy> I just think <font> should be dropped completely
# [13:32] <ROBOd> Lachy: as a real use case, given a WYSIWYG editor, you want to align to center, justify or otherwise change some CSS property for your image or text. you want this for a *single* pagraph in the entire site
# [13:32] <beowulf> i don't think many would complain if it was, there's oodles of examples of <font> less documents
# [13:32] <ROBOd> is it justified to add a class/ID for that? and go on to modify the site.css ?
# [13:33] <hsivonen> I think Hixie's current definition for font is far worse than the HTML 4 definition.
# [13:33] <anne> ROBOd, you can have <style scoped>
# [13:33] <ROBOd> and the argument of using <font style> doesn't hold for me... because that's pretty bad (one can use today <p style>)
# [13:33] <ROBOd> anne: gotta read on that ... didn't loook at it yet
# [13:33] <hsivonen> I hope <font> either goes away or is changed into strict inline before I get supporting it in the conformance checker
# [13:33] <Lachy> <style scoped> isn't much better when just used as a direct substittute for style=""
# [13:34] * hsivonen intends to do video first and refactor <header> and <footer>
# [13:34] <ROBOd> hsivonen: i'd say <font> tag should be completely removed
# [13:35] <Lachy> I'd favour style="" on any element over <font>, given the choice
# [13:35] <ROBOd> me too
# [13:35] <beowulf> aol
# [13:35] <ROBOd> :)
# [13:35] <Lachy> aol?
# [13:35] <beowulf> sorry, me too
# [13:38] <sbuluf> i wonder if wysiyg/m editing is a goal for this wg. and if so, how do you isualize the interface and method for editing
# [13:47] <ROBOd> according to the charter (from Deliverables): "Editing APIs and user-driven WYSIWYG editing features."
# [13:48] <ROBOd> the WG must address the issues related to HTML5-based WYSIWYG editors
# [13:48] <Lachy> sbuluf, it's a bit complex to describe in detail here, but the basic way in which I think it should work is to be built around meaning of content and the components the user wants to put into the page
# [13:48] <hsivonen> glazou might have a thing or two to say about editing. :-)
# [13:49] <Lachy> glazou's idea of an editor is Nvu, and that's one of the worst I've ever attempted to use when it comes to the UI
# [13:49] <sbuluf> "Editing APIs and user-driven WYSIWYG editing features." <--i assume this means llowing editing both programtically and via some UI
# [13:50] <Lachy> I think that's referring to contentEditable
# [13:50] <sbuluf> lachy, agreed, is a bit complex for here, but just some rought guidelines
# [13:51] <sbuluf> lachy, meaning...for example, <em>, <strong>? section, header foooter, nav?
# [13:51] <Lachy> e.g. There should be controls designed around structuring documents, like headings, sections, lists, paragraphs, and semantic inline content
# [13:51] <sbuluf> right
# [13:51] <sbuluf> what about css?
# [13:51] <Lachy> I'm getting to that..
# [13:52] <ROBOd> funny, even the charter uses the style attribute :)
# [13:52] <Lachy> just trying to think of a way to describe it
# [13:53] <Lachy> the charter also uses XHTML as text/html. It's not really a great example of what we're aiming for :-)
# [13:54] <Lachy> there should also be tools for creating common structurees, like menus, forms, tables, etc.
# [13:55] <sbuluf> visual ones, right?
# [13:55] <Lachy> and good template features for common page structures/layouts
# [13:55] <sbuluf> a sort of form with fields and editable values sort of thing?
# [13:55] <ROBOd> the way i see this, i believe that UAs should provide by default their own WYSIWYG editor
# [13:56] <Lachy> ROBOd, that's what NN4 did, and Mozilla suite still does. It's nott such a great idea.
# [13:56] <sbuluf> why not?
# [13:56] <ROBOd> allowing for more innovation (UAs could then compete for making better and better editors)
# [13:57] <ROBOd> hmm... but this is like asking for all developers to write their own <input type=email> (something new in WF2)
# [13:57] <Lachy> because editors and browsers have different purposes. Not everyone who browses the web wants an editor, and having one just adds unnecessary features to a perfectly good browser
# [13:57] <Lachy> ROBOd, what?
# [13:58] <sbuluf> lachy, otoh, adding edting promotes read/write end-user's, not just passive read only
# [13:59] <ROBOd> Lachy: Web Forms 2 adds a few new input types, for example email. conforming UAs (e.g. Opera) provide autocomplete features and validation for such fields
# [14:00] <beowulf> I *heart* web forms 2
# [14:00] <Lachy> sbuluf, finally, presentation of all that semantic stuff should be handled by defining it in the template. i.e. such that modifying the presentation of one h2 in a section affects all h2s. Of course, there would need to be a way to group and classify different uses of the elements
# [14:01] <Lachy> ROBOd, I'm aware of that, but I'm not sure how it's relevant to the discussion of editors
# [14:01] <sbuluf> lachy, which brings us back to the editing UI and it's css aspect
# [14:02] <ROBOd> Lachy: it's relevant to the fact that wf2 introduced input types and other features that are widely used, and developers currently make their own implementations, their own form validators, their own <input type=email>s and whatever
# [14:02] <ROBOd> Lachy: not providing a default (or at least optional) UI for WYSIWYG editors ... forces all developers to write their own buggy WYSIWYG editors
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# [14:03] <Lachy> ROBOd, are you talking about wysiwyg editors created using contentEditable?
# [14:04] <ROBOd> Lachy: no, "full-blown editors" (à la HTMLArea)
# [14:04] <ROBOd> which currently use designMode and an iframe (after hiding the <textarea>)
# [14:05] <Lachy> sbuluf, have you ever seen or used the poorly named "Styles and Formatting" task pane in MS Word? When used with care, that allows users to define the style for different semantic structures in the document.
# [14:05] <Lachy> it's not perfect, but it was certainly a step in the right direction
# [14:06] <Lachy> though, now MS Office 2007 has stepped backwards again
# [14:06] <sbuluf> lachy, i did not see it, but when asking about css aspect of editing, i was thinking on something like that, i believe.
# [14:07] <sbuluf> namely, to add styles, one would mostly pickpreviously defined whole styles from a combo box, or something like that
# [14:07] <Lachy> Open Office has something similar, but its UI is nowhere near as polished
# [14:07] <sbuluf> so tere would be two basic steps: 1) predefine styles 2) apply them just by selecting them from a list
# [14:07] <Lachy> yes, that's the idea. Though, there are better ways than using a combo box
# [14:07] * Quits: anne (annevk@131.211.112.133) (Ping timeout)
# [14:07] <Lachy> sbuluf, yes!
# [14:07] <sbuluf> if there is a better way, no probs, great
# [14:08] <ROBOd> and who should provide the UI for such functionality?
# [14:08] <sbuluf> the "predefine styles" step, could be some interface like, say, topstyle, perhaps?
# [14:08] <Lachy> the vendor that produced the editor?!
# [14:09] <Lachy> I don't know how topstyle works
# [14:09] <sbuluf> you pick styles from a list with all of them, but at least you see a preview
# [14:10] <Lachy> ok
# [14:10] <sbuluf> if there are better ideas for defining styles, even more visually than that, i'm all for them...but i can not think of any, i think
# [14:11] <sbuluf> one question: the apllying-predefined-styles idea...would mean using just classes? or also assigning classes to element selectors?
# [14:11] <Lachy> ideally, you wouldn't actually be picking based on presentation, which is what you seem to be hinting. But, e.g., when you select Heading2, it's automatically styled according to the context it's in
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# [14:11] <Lachy> e.g. an h2 in the main content might be styled differently from that in a sidebar
# [14:12] <sbuluf> mm, automatically styled, assuming you provide default values, i suppose
# [14:12] <Lachy> obviously, such styles could be customised
# [14:12] <Lachy> but once they're defined, they just get used
# [14:13] <Lachy> there may even be some nice templates provided by the editor as a starting point, so that users don't have to do everything themselves
# [14:14] <sbuluf> if customization is allowed, then UI for doing it is necessary, however
# [14:14] <Lachy> the UI for defining the style of a particular structure would be separated from that used to markup content in the document
# [14:15] <sbuluf> right, and structure-depedent, perhaps
# [14:15] <Lachy> it might be provided in a separte dialog, or perhaps even work like the context sensitive ribbon in Office 2007.
# [14:16] <sbuluf> (haven't seen the ribbon, but +1 for separate dialog)
# [14:16] * Quits: erik (erik@131.155.100.197) (Quit: Bye bye)
# [14:16] <Lachy> the ribbon is just like a special toolbar that changes content depending on what you're doing
# [14:17] <sbuluf> right
# [14:17] <Lachy> it's just implemented poorly in office 2007 because it focuses solely on presentaiton, rather than semantics and strucutre.
# [14:17] <sbuluf> right, i understand
# [14:18] <ROBOd> Lachy: that's probably because users tend to focus on presentation
# [14:19] <ROBOd> users don't think of semantics "hey, i have to tell it this is a heading", they just say "hey, i want *this* heading to be green"
# [14:19] <sbuluf> they can learn
# [14:19] <sbuluf> may i mention another related aspect of things that pisses me very much? it has to do with copying and pasting html *with* styles and all
# [14:19] <Lachy> ROBOd, I suspect that's because they're only presented with tools for thinking and working like that
# [14:20] <sbuluf> today, afaik..it simply can not be done
# [14:20] <Lachy> sbuluf, glazou was in here earlier advocating such nonsense
# [14:20] <sbuluf> such a basic feature...so intuitive... " i see this, i want to keep it, or copy it"...and it can not be done, if one includes styles
# [14:21] <Lachy> Editors should allow the user to retain semantics only and for content to inherit the styles of the destination document
# [14:21] <ROBOd> Lachy: providing them with the right tools is a good step in the right direction, indeed. however for current users, an application which limits/forces users to think the *new* way, won't gain traction
# [14:21] <sbuluf> lachy, why do you oppose it?
# [14:21] <Lachy> ROBOd, it really depends on the target audience of the tool
# [14:22] <sbuluf> <Lachy> Editors should allow the user to retain semantics only and for content to inherit the styles of the destination document <--agreed if you poaste to say a blog. but what if you just want to keep a given snippet you see in some page?
# [14:22] <sbuluf> what if the target document is blank, or if does not have styles for particular ones used in the original?
# [14:23] <Lachy> if the user wants the presentation too, that's fine. The editor can provide that feature too, but I want an editor that doesn't by default
# [14:23] <sbuluf> lachy, fine, but...can even be done today, at all?
# [14:23] <Lachy> sbuluf, then those parts will be unstyled
# [14:23] <sbuluf> have you noticed there isn't even one such tool, afaik?
# [14:23] <Lachy> sbuluf, what?
# [14:23] <ROBOd> Lachy: simple users. can't really focus on a specific target among them: they most likely think similarly. look at the blog writers (the average ones), or look at secretaries using MS Word: they do not know what semantics is
# [14:24] <Lachy> look at people like me who write web pages for a living, but are forced to hand code everything because WYSIWYG editors screw everything up
# [14:24] <Lachy> I would love a decent editor that could speed up my job without getting in the way of it
# [14:25] <sbuluf> exactly, is number one missing feature in the whole web
# [14:25] <sbuluf> it is hand coding, btw, what intriduces so much screwed code into the system
# [14:25] <Lachy> sbuluf, what the?
# [14:26] <Lachy> sbuluf, please try to express yourself more clearly. I do not understand what you are saying
# [14:26] <ROBOd> Lachy: yes, for such users, such tools would be very welcome (i would love one like that)
# [14:27] <sbuluf> ilachy, before, i meant: i dont know even one tool today that allows you to copy and paste an html snippet, *with* styles and all
# [14:27] <sbuluf> do you know of any such thing? and if not...can it even be done, as html spec stand today?
# [14:27] <Lachy> there are plenty of tools that will retain styles. Dreamweaver, MS Word, Nvu, Frontpage, and virtually all other wysiwyg editors
# [14:28] <Lachy> it's the tools that allow you to strip those styles easily that are limited
# [14:28] <Lachy> MS Word 2003 allows it, but you have to select "Keep text only" every time you paste
# [14:28] <sbuluf> mm, do they keep the relevant rules only (that are needed to reproduce a snippet only), and not the whole thing?
# [14:29] <Lachy> Nvu does it by inserting style attributes
# [14:29] <sbuluf> and is the rules themselves, or computed values, instead?
# [14:29] <ROBOd> hmm... given a real, semantically based editor... copy/paste would no longer retain the style between documents
# [14:29] <Lachy> ROBOd, that's correct
# [14:29] <ROBOd> because the style in the destination document should be applied
# [14:29] <Lachy> and that's exactly what glazou would argue against
# [14:30] <ROBOd> to maintain the style... that would mean using <style scoped> (haven't yet read the spec about this, but... i believe that's the use case)
# [14:30] <ROBOd> is <style scoped> good for such cases?
# [14:30] <sbuluf> never heard of it
# [14:30] <Lachy> another use case is also HTML e-mails in web based mail
# [14:30] <Lachy> sadly, HTML e-mails aren't going anywhere :-(
# [14:31] <sbuluf> wait, wait a bit, please...
# [14:31] <Lachy> ok
# [14:31] <sbuluf> procedure: go to any page. select just a snippet, say a paragraph and a list
# [14:32] <sbuluf> now copy and paste just that to a blank html document, to keep a copy
# [14:33] <Lachy> why?
# [14:33] <sbuluf> is there any tool available that would identify, copy and keep just the reveant rules that apply to said snippet *only*, without keeping the whole css thing?
# [14:33] <sbuluf> not all css, just those rules that apply
# [14:33] <sbuluf> and not computed values, but css rules
# [14:34] <Lachy> as I said, Nvu does it with style attributes. Not sure about other editors, since I rarely want to keep the styles anyway
# [14:34] <sbuluf> unless i'm very mistaken, i have seen just about none that does such thing
# [14:34] <sbuluf> perhaps nvu is the only one
# [14:35] <sbuluf> how germaine is that nvu method, in such case?
# [14:35] <Lachy> what does germaine mean?
# [14:36] <sbuluf> means getting not all rules, but only the needed ones, means not getting computed values, but rules, and means getting them in some decent, reusable way
# [14:36] <Dashiva> Probably germane
# [14:36] <Lachy> really? It's not an english word, AFAIK
# [14:37] <Dashiva> closely or significantly related; relevant; pertinent
# [14:37] <sbuluf> (i.e, if one wants to paste the snippet later in some other document, the rules get added to that doc css file in some half decent way
# [14:37] <Lachy> right, germane is a word
# [14:37] <Lachy> sbuluf, why would you want to do that though?
# [14:37] <Lachy> It is much more useful if the styles are not retained
# [14:38] <sbuluf> i think that is one option, but there is also the other one, the freedom to keep them
# [14:38] <Lachy> yes, but that doesn't answer the question of *why?*
# [14:39] <sbuluf> i can agree with you thet if you were to paste the snippet in your own blog, for instance, you'd want your own blog styles to override the original ones where possible
# [14:39] <sbuluf> but you might want, for instance, reproduce , in a tidy little square, what you see in another page
# [14:40] <sbuluf> exactly the same, styles and all
# [14:40] <sbuluf> on top of that, you might just want to keep a snippet, as simple as that, with some half decent style already applied to it, and not just bare
# [14:40] <Lachy> but that approach is likely to fail to work accurately anyway due to inheritence of styles from the desintion document anyway
# [14:40] * Quits: anne (annevk@131.211.112.133) (Ping timeout)
# [14:41] <sbuluf> so you can read it locally, offline, and comfortably, without having to style it, notr see it just raw
# [14:41] <Lachy> ok. That's a fairly limited use case, the more common one (at least in my experience) is to strip the styles
# [14:41] <sbuluf> but if you just want to keep a local copy of the snippet in your hard drive...what destination document would exist?
# [14:42] <sbuluf> lachy, the case can be fairly direct: keep a copy of a snippet for offline reading, researching, etc
# [14:43] <Lachy> that doesn't really explain why styles need to be retained. But one could always use Save Page As.. from the browser's file menu and choose web page complete
# [14:43] <sbuluf> but that would keep the whole page, not just, say a given one paragraph wuote
# [14:43] <sbuluf> quote
# [14:44] <Lachy> we seem to be going around in circles
# [14:44] <sbuluf> or just one ordered list, or a table
# [14:45] <Lachy> you haven't really answred my question, just repeated what you said earlier
# [14:45] <sbuluf> you might want to keepo the original styles...simply because you liked them. or because when storing such snippet, there might be sp�cial styles not covered by your own predefined ones
# [14:46] <sbuluf> is it too wierd to simply want to keep a snippet exactly as one saw it?
# [14:48] <Lachy> it depends what's really more important: the content or the presentation
# [14:48] <sbuluf> why does one have to choose?
# [14:48] <sbuluf> can't one keep both?
# [14:49] <Lachy> that's not what I said or meant
# [14:49] <sbuluf> sorry, then. care to rephrase?
# [14:52] <Lachy> not sure how, I said exaly what I meant, but you seemed to misinterpret it
# [14:53] <sbuluf> Lachy> it depends what's really more important: the content or the presentation <--you mean this?
# [14:53] <Lachy> yes
# [14:53] <sbuluf> mm, i can say what i see. it seems to imply you can choose one or other, but not both...am i wrong?
# [14:54] <Lachy> it's a one or the other selection
# [14:54] <sbuluf> why is one forced to determine which is more important?
# [14:55] <Lachy> it's whether you were interested in the content because of what it said or because of the way it looks.
# [14:56] <sbuluf> " i see A, i want to keep A, exactly as i saw it" <--why the conflict?
# [14:56] <sbuluf> (where A is snippet, not a full page)
# [14:57] <Lachy> I really don't know how I can explain it to you in a way you would understand
# [14:58] <Lachy> perhaps I'm just too tired to think properly
# [14:58] <sbuluf> no probs, if so, lachy
# [14:58] <sbuluf> we can keep some other time
# [15:01] <sbuluf> i think glazou should be here for this, as well
# [15:04] <Lachy> I don't, I've had the argument about retaining styles with him before, it's not particularly fun
# [15:04] <sbuluf> was he pro or con?
# [15:05] <Lachy> he's the creator of Nvu, which as I said, retains the styles
# [15:05] <sbuluf> i need to check how he does it
# [15:06] <ROBOd> i agree with both cases
# [15:06] <ROBOd> 1. some users ("experts") will always want to *not* keep the styles
# [15:07] <ROBOd> 2. the majority of users (average ones) expect *and* want styles retained
# [15:08] <ROBOd> because the majority rules, tools provide, by default, the functionality of keeping the styles
# [15:08] <Lachy> ROBOd, are you basing that statement on any real evidence?
# [15:08] <ROBOd> Word (and other tools) provide the functionality of not keeping the styles
# [15:08] <ROBOd> Lachy: i haven't done any research, neither did you (IIANM), in regards to what users expect
# [15:09] <sbuluf> users never even had the chance to decide
# [15:09] <Lachy> I meant #2. I know there are users that fit into #1, because I'm one of them
# [15:09] <ROBOd> sbuluf: correct, thus now they expect things based on previous experience
# [15:09] <ROBOd> (i also fit into #1)
# [15:10] <sbuluf> "1 should always be there, at least as option, that's clear, everyone agrees
# [15:10] <sbuluf> #1
# [15:10] <ROBOd> Lachy: logically, because we know how the web works, how documents are, what semantics is, we want #1
# [15:10] <ROBOd> Lachy: but try to think like you don't know anything
# [15:10] <Lachy> that's not the only reason I want #1
# [15:11] <ROBOd> it suddenly becomes logcal to keep the styles
# [15:11] <Lachy> no it doesn't, except in rare cases
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# [15:11] <ROBOd> it always does
# [15:11] <Lachy> what?
# [15:11] <ROBOd> for the majority of users, it always does make sense to keep the styles
# [15:11] <Lachy> It makes sense to match destination formatting for aesthetic reasons, not just semantic reasons
# [15:12] <Lachy> ROBOd, I strongly disagree
# [15:12] <ROBOd> can we agree on one thing? that users don't think in terms of semantics
# [15:12] <Lachy> yes
# [15:12] <ROBOd> ok
# [15:12] <ROBOd> next
# [15:12] <sbuluf> what about the case of simply saving a snippet locally? there is no target css there, is it?
# [15:12] <Lachy> I'm not arguing in terms of semantics
# [15:12] <sbuluf> when i save a full page, it sdaves styles...why not the same with just anippet?
# [15:13] <sbuluf> *a snippet
# [15:13] <ROBOd> Lachy: can we also agree that users SEE their document snippet (not the code behind), that the users associate a heading with a certain font/style/color?
# [15:13] <Lachy> yes
# [15:14] <ROBOd> Lachy: can we agree that users copy an image from a document to another and want their image to look the same in both documents? even if, say, the two documents don't share the same color pallete
# [15:14] <ROBOd> Lachy: users will also want and expect that they copy the text from a document to another document retaining the same visual info
# [15:14] <ROBOd> (the same styles)
# [15:14] <Lachy> ROBOd, I'm arguing from personal experience of using tools that constantly keep styles attached, and everytime having to say keep text only because it only screws up the formatting of other things
# [15:15] <ROBOd> Lachy: agreed, completely agreed
# [15:15] <Lachy> in particular, MS Word
# [15:15] <ROBOd> but we are not talking about experts like us
# [15:15] <ROBOd> they never, ever know what formatting is
# [15:15] <Lachy> average users know what formatting is
# [15:16] <ROBOd> have you seen users to press Enter (to add a new line) when they reach the right margin of the page?
# [15:16] <ROBOd> *...users who press..
# [15:16] <sbuluf> l(achy, to drop styles information is always doable, and just about trivial. you can set that as the default behaviour, no probs.)
# [15:16] <ROBOd> some of them don't let the editor do the text wrapping
# [15:17] <Lachy> sbuluf, I wish that could be set as the default behavour in Word. I've looked and there is no way to do that
# [15:17] <ROBOd> have you seen users who do not like automatic numbering (and bullets)? they want to manually write the numbers
# [15:17] <sbuluf> lachy, word is crap...what can we do?
# [15:17] <Lachy> Open Office is worse, what can we do?
# [15:17] <sbuluf> same, what can we do?
# [15:18] <ROBOd> Word 2007 UI is much better than OpenOffice Writer.... IMHO
# [15:18] <ROBOd> even if it's oriented towards presentation
# [15:18] <Lachy> Word 2007 is a step backwards, IMHO
# [15:18] <sbuluf> we could write to them, etc, they might refuse.
# [15:19] <Lachy> sbuluf, they would refuse, because the developers are fools
# [15:19] <Lachy> not complete fools, though
# [15:19] <sbuluf> most likely, yes
# [15:20] <ROBOd> I believe Microsoft did a great job with their new Office: they had the courage to do some very important changes. for me, the changes seem to be for the better. (i'm leaving all the incompatibility issues aside, on purpose)
# [15:20] <ROBOd> OpenOffice Writer just copies previous Word versions. I'd wish OpenOffice would come up with new ideas
# [15:20] <sbuluf> i never use wqord processors, myself, so i'm off the question
# [15:20] <ROBOd> sbuluf: i rarely use them....
# [15:21] <ROBOd> and i try to stay away from them
# [15:22] <sbuluf> two sentences...
# [15:22] <sbuluf> if a see a fragment of text i want, i coy, i paste, and it looks the same. the html analog case is not true
# [15:22] <sbuluf> second...
# [15:22] <sbuluf> if i save a full web page, it saves with styles. if i save just a fragment...it does not.
# [15:23] <sbuluf> i think both would seem logical expectable behavoiurs for a newbie, and they both fail
# [15:24] <sbuluf> very reasonable tipical use case? to save a anippet locally, for later offline reading.
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# [15:26] <sbuluf> if one pastes to a blog, then there *is* some blog styles already, and for aestethic reasons, one might want to conform to those
# [15:26] <sbuluf> but if one saves locally...there are no previous styles
# [15:27] <Lachy> sbuluf, you have said all of that before, there is no need to repeat youself
# [15:27] <sbuluf> lachy, yes, i was just doing a compact version
# [15:27] <anne> you're still busy?
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# [15:30] * anne wonders if he killed the conversation
# [15:30] <sbuluf> anne, no, we just sort of rounded it up, i think
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# [15:39] <ROBOd> bbl, eating
# [15:39] <sbuluf> later
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# [15:46] <sbuluf> bbl as well
# [15:46] * Quits: sbuluf (zcswq@200.49.140.127) (Quit: sbuluf)
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# [15:47] * anne replies with a link to public-html@w3.org
# [15:47] <anne> euh, http://marc.merlins.org/netrants/listreplyto.html
# [15:48] * heycam was just about to mention the list cross-posted problem when using Reply-To munging lists
# [15:50] <anne> that may actually be good... :)
# [15:52] <heycam> a divisive person might suggest the whatwg list be set up to automatically add a Reply-To: public-html@w3.org header ;)
# [16:18] <Lachy> oh no, I can't believe this list has now started up the whole reply-to debate!
# [16:18] <anne> i hope i stopped it
# [16:19] <Lachy> it's like we're doomed to repeat every single controversial, yet annoyingly trivial issue ever debated anywhere in the past
# [16:19] <Lachy> who wants to place bets on the next one?
# [16:20] <edas> Lachy, deprecate the "html" serialization ? ;)
# [16:20] <anne> i hope MS will join
# [16:20] <anne> then i'll unsubscribe for a week to avoid the 1000 e-mails
# [16:21] <Lachy> is it possible to unusubscribe without leaving the group?
# [16:21] <anne> and hopefully then we can get on with it
# [16:21] <anne> Lachy, I don't think so
# [16:21] <Lachy> and then is it possible to resubscribe without going through that long process again?
# [16:21] <anne> maybe
# [16:21] <anne> dunno
# [16:40] <beowulf> maybe some guidelines on what topics are more about heat than light or something?
# [16:41] * anne doesn't follow
# [16:43] <Lachy> anne, beowulf seems to be referring to "We're generating a lot of heat and not much light." -- Dan Connolly in http://www.w3.org/mid/1175210133.5321.681.camel@dirk
# [16:45] <anne> beowulf, ah, I think at this point there's not much to discuss
# [16:45] <anne> without Microsoft there's not much to discuss really, imo
# [16:46] <Lachy> yet, it's the most active mailing list I'm on at the moment!
# [16:49] <anne> Everyone would make productive use of their time by reviewing HTML5 I suppose
# [16:50] <Lachy> I wonder how many would actually do so considering its size
# [16:51] <anne> it's not much larger compared to HTML4
# [16:51] <anne> certainly not compared to HTML4+XHTML1.x+DOM2HTML which is what it replaces
# [16:52] <anne> then again, not many people review those specs either :)
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# [16:54] <alexf> hello everybody
# [16:54] <Lachy> hi alexf
# [16:55] <anne> ello
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# [17:02] <ROBOd> Lachy: it is possible to disable email delivery
# [17:03] <Lachy> how?
# [17:03] <ROBOd> but i don't know where's the settings page...
# [17:03] <Lachy> I've never seen such a page for w3c lists
# [17:04] <Lachy> anyway, I'm off to bed. good night everyone
# [17:04] <anne> nn
# [17:04] <ROBOd> good night Lachy
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# [17:28] <anne> 785 messages ...
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# [17:45] <anne> welcome Charl!
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# [18:58] <anne> I should make a t-shirt: <standards></suck>
# [19:01] <ROBOd> <? why(anne); ?>
# [19:02] <ROBOd> :)
# [19:02] <anne> That's quite simple: 1. Make a t-shirt. 2. ... 3. Profit!
# [19:03] <ROBOd> rephrase: why standards suck?
# [19:04] <anne> That story belongs to me and the guy on my blog.
# [19:04] <ROBOd> make a blog post :)
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# [19:28] <Charl> anne: thanks, sorry i didn't watch irc for a while
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# [19:33] <anne> It's probably not a design principle but I wonder if there should be something about "deprecation" somewhere.
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# [19:34] <anne> For instance, that it's not useful and what the alternative is.
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# [19:40] <DanC> all this stuff about reply-to headers and such... I suppose it's inevitable in any large mailing list...
# [19:40] <DanC> ... if I respond to it, I risk feeding the fire. I wonder if it's best that I just let it run its course.
# [19:41] <DanC> I tend to not jump in until a couple days after a thread has started.
# [19:42] <DanC> I got the *wierdest* response to my message about holding off on discussion of new features.
# [19:42] <ROBOd> DanC: one advantage on forums is you can close/lock threads :)
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# [19:42] <ROBOd> (not asking for forums, mailing list is just fine for me....)
# [19:42] <DanC> email clients have had support for killing threads long before web forums existed
# [19:43] <ROBOd> hmmm... too bad opera doesn't have this. i'd kill such threads
# [19:43] * DanC stands by for somebody to point out that opera does have this after all
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# [19:43] * DanC doesn't use opera and doesn't know, but suspects it does
# [19:43] * anne is pretty sure it does too
# [19:44] <ROBOd> anne: where? :)
# [19:44] <ROBOd> using opera for over one year (almost two years)... and i haven't noticed the feature
# [19:44] <DanC> . /topic HTML WG and Opera Tech support
# [19:44] <DanC> 1/2 ;-)
# [19:44] <ROBOd> (obviously, i never looked for it)
# [19:44] <ROBOd> DanC: hehe :)
# [19:44] <anne> I'm not using threading
# [19:45] <DanC> ?!
# [19:45] <DanC> wow
# [19:45] <ROBOd> will ask in appropriate channels right now ....
# [19:45] <DanC> I couldn't survive without it
# [19:46] <DanC> I just got a wild hair and made a local meetup group. http://webdesign.meetup.com/448/
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# [19:49] <tylerr> Nice DanC!
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# [19:56] * DanC writes to request management OK before announcing it widely
# [19:59] <jgraham> Was there ever any progress on a meeting around XTech?
# [19:59] <anne> Well, a date was proposed.
# [19:59] <jgraham> On the mailing list?
# [19:59] * jgraham misssed that
# [20:00] <anne> I don't think it got that far.
# [20:00] <anne> It would be the two days before XTech, if there'll be a meeting.
# [20:00] <anne> (Also during the tutorial day.)
# [20:00] <jgraham> 14th+15th?
# [20:00] <anne> I think so, yes
# [20:01] <jgraham> Someoneshould really post that to the mailing list :)
# [20:01] <jgraham> (even if it's not final)
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# [20:03] <DanC> I'm not sure we have critical mass for a WG meeting around XTech. Those who are there will undoubtedly meet and greet to some extent.
# [20:04] <DanC> the idea of not adding another international trip in May to my schedule is appealing to me
# [20:06] <jgraham> Sure. It would just be very annoying to find that the meeting was organised for the day before I arrive...
# [20:06] <DanC> yeah, I owe something definitive pretty soon
# [20:07] <DanC> actually, I owed something at T-8 weeks. W3C process says that if a meeting is announced with less notice than that, one objection is enough to cancel the meeting.
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# [20:56] <Hixie> the <font> and style="" issue in HTML5 isn't even remotely decided yet
# [20:56] <Hixie> the current text is clearly not acceptable to a majority of people and will be changing
# [20:57] <anne> morning Hixie
# [20:59] <Hixie> hi
# [21:00] <anne> interesting, the XForms WG will henceforth be known as the Forms WG...
# [21:00] <Hixie> we do need to find a solution to the style="" attribute problem though
# [21:00] <Hixie> <style scoped> handles a bunch of the use cases
# [21:00] <Hixie> <m> handles some more
# [21:00] <anne> (which is in the XForms Activity to keep things simple)
# [21:00] <Hixie> most of the other use cases are about rapid prototyping
# [21:01] <Hixie> it could make sense to have conformance checkers have two modes, "prototyping" and "publishing" or some such
# [21:02] <anne> why would you want a conforming prototyping document?
# [21:02] <anne> to keep UAs from complaining about trivial issues?
# [21:02] * anne wonders how the UI for that would work
# [21:03] <Hixie> well you'd want to conformance check any document to check that what you're doing makes sense
# [21:06] <anne> From http://www.w3.org/2007/03/forms-charter.html#coordination "... and whenever appropriate, the HTML Working Group will also coordinate with groups not listed here."
# [21:06] * anne wonders how that makes sense in the Forms WG charter
# [21:08] <anne> http://www.w3.org/2007/03/forms-charter.html#deliverables is also weird as it seems that the Forms WG is somehow in charge of Web Forms 2 which I hope is not the case
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# [21:16] <anne> DanC, re: versioning, http://www.w3.org/mid/A9925841-9449-4E5C-B149-EF07E1598735@iki.fi is also a good resource imo (although the real points start halfway)
# [21:17] <anne> DanC, and http://dbaron.org/log/2007-03#e20070325a
# [21:17] <anne> DanC, also http://www.w3.org/mid/20061214193700.GA9110@ridley.dbaron.org (Member only)
# [21:18] <mjs> should there be something in the Design Principles document about versioning?
# [21:19] <anne> "WebLanguageVersioning: Don't"
# [21:20] <DanC> hm... a wiki works best when documenting conventional wisdom, and this topic is somewhat controversial
# [21:21] <DanC> by the way, I tried to get the TAG to use a wiki in the very beginning. I'd be interested to try it for this topic
# [21:21] <DanC> we would need to get at least 3 or 4 TAG members to participate in the wiki.
# [21:22] <DanC> in particular, anne, "WebLanguageVersioning: Don't" is not a bumper sticker that Norm Walsh is going to buy and put on his car today.
# [21:22] * anne isn't sure there's much to decide actually
# [21:22] <mjs> DanC: well, I segregated currently disputed principles into a separate section there
# [21:23] <mjs> DanC: but I think we will have to decide on those, ultimately, despite the current lack of consensus
# [21:23] <DanC> I'd be happy to see progress on the principles around versioning
# [21:23] <anne> I mean, no versioning is pretty much how the web is able to evolve (CSS, HTML, DOM)
# [21:23] <DanC> and yes, we'll have to make some decisions about what goes at the top of HTML documents.
# [21:23] <ROBOd> Hixie: glad to read that the <font> and style="" issue is not yet decided
# [21:24] <mjs> I would personally favor a NoVersioning principle
# [21:24] <DanC> that name polarizes it too much...
# [21:24] <anne> it's a principle
# [21:24] <mjs> but it's worthy of discussion
# [21:24] <DanC> OneWeb is friendlier, but less precise...
# [21:24] <Hixie> in general in my experience one way to come up with more principles for our group would be to take the tag's principles and negate them
# [21:25] <mjs> lol
# [21:25] <Hixie> they seem to have a very poor batting average in terms of coming up with good principles
# [21:25] <DanC> Hixie, do you take special classes on how to be rude, or do you just do it naturally?
# [21:25] <h3h> what about something like OneTrueHTML?
# [21:26] <Hixie> DanC: what would have been a polite way to say that?
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# [21:26] <h3h> so "UA $x supports HTML" would be meaningful instead of "UA $x supports HTML $version"
# [21:27] <DanC> maybe "I know the TAG put in a lot of effort on web design principles, and most people seem to agree with them, but I don't"
# [21:27] <h3h> very PC :)
# [21:27] <Hixie> DanC: that would be a lie. i have no evidence they put in a lot of effort, and most people don't agree with them.
# [21:28] <DanC> the www-tag archives are extensive evidence of lots of effort
# [21:28] <DanC> no?
# [21:29] <Hixie> where?
# [21:29] <Hixie> they have very little traffic
# [21:29] <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/
# [21:29] <Hixie> most of the e-mail is just people nit-picking grammar
# [21:29] <Hixie> no i mean where is the evidence
# [21:29] * Hixie is subscribed to www-tag
# [21:30] <DanC> the mail messages are evidence
# [21:30] <DanC> of thinking, writing, discussing, etc.
# [21:31] <DanC> nit-picking grammar is work
# [21:33] <Hixie> today's e-mails are: a mail from you saying that minutes were poor and an action item was dropped, quotes from this group, and a question. an agenda similar to the previous week's. minutes of a meeting where it seems little happened. another copy of hte same minutes. a proposal reiterating a year old proposal.
# [21:33] <DanC> then, as to "most people seem to agree with them," there was an open review process which lasted several years. People who disagreed with the TAG had some obligation to say so. Many of them did. We reached consensus with all but about 3 of those who participated.
# [21:34] <Hixie> people who disagreed with the tag typically didn't know the tag existed. the tag is widely ignored.
# [21:34] <Hixie> and the few times i've pointed out my disagreeement i've been dismissed, which isn't conducive to pointing out more disagreement.
# [21:34] <DanC> OK, so I'll stipulated that more than half of the 6 billion people on the planet have never heard of the TAG
# [21:35] <mjs> I think most people working with web technology don't really care what the TAG says
# [21:35] <Hixie> even within the web community the tag is ignored.
# [21:35] <DanC> you've been dismissed? I'm interested to look into that.
# [21:35] <Hixie> if you want to look into my being dismissed i'd rather you started looking at the svg wg
# [21:35] * anne is also glad the TAG produces non-normative documents
# [21:35] <DanC> well, the webarch document itself is a REC, anne
# [21:35] <Hixie> the svgwg are producing normative docs and dismissing my feedback, i care much more about that than the tag ignoring me
# [21:35] <DanC> the svg WG is another story. And yes, I'm still looking into that.
# [21:36] <anne> I should have said "mostly" in there somewhere
# [21:36] <Hixie> the webarch document is another example of a document with things that a lot of people disagree with
# [21:36] <Hixie> e.g. http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#versioning
# [21:37] <DanC> I, personally, have spent several years of my life (a) trying to write down what works well in the web, and (b) actively seeking the consensus of the community. I think the results are reasonably good.
# [21:37] <Hixie> or http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#xml-links
# [21:38] <Hixie> or http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#error-handling
# [21:38] <Hixie> i mean come on, AWWW is full of things that directly contradict the basic principles of, e.g., this group, or the whatwg.
# [21:38] <DanC> we could discuss the level of success the tag has had, but for you to say, "they seem to have a very poor batting average in terms of coming up with good principles", as if I weren't even here or something, is the sort of rudeness I'm not interested to deal with.
# [21:38] <anne> or http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#xml-media-types
# [21:38] <Hixie> i'm sure it's not your fault dan, the csswg also has a poor batting average in doing good work, and i'm a member of that group
# [21:39] <Hixie> please don't take my criticisms personally
# [21:39] <Hixie> (cdf is another group that is a disaster zone, and i was a member of that too for a long time)
# [21:39] <Hixie> (i'm not stranger to being on groups that do poor work)
# [21:39] <Hixie> s/not/no/
# [21:39] <DanC> please phrase your criticism more thoughtfully.
# [21:40] <Hixie> i should probably warn you if you got offended by my comment that we're likely to get a LOT of feedback like that on HTML5.
# [21:40] <Hixie> people telling us we're morons, or whatever
# [21:40] <mjs> DanC: I don't think the problem with the TAG's output is a result of TAG member incompetence, just that the way it is set up tends to lead to an ivory tower point of view
# [21:40] <Hixie> i wouldn't take that personally either
# [21:41] <DanC> yes, mjs, I argued against creating the TAG at all because I wondered whether it would do more good than harm
# [21:41] <mjs> DanC: the whole premise of an general architecture group that operates divorced from specific technologies, users and implementations will tend to lead to ideas that are less informed by real-world experience
# [21:42] <DanC> I know the TAG is ignored quite a bit, but I also know that what we do helps quite a few people.
# [21:43] <DanC> or at least: I know quite a few people appreciate it. (you could say that the TAG has misinfomred them.)
# [21:44] <DanC> as a practical matter, I don't intend to ignore TAG writings while chairing this WG. If we come up with arguments against TAG principles, I'll get the TAG principles changed.
# [21:44] <anne> cool
# [21:44] <DanC> I think architectural consistency at W3C is worth working on.
# [21:45] <mjs> I think the webarch principles that Hixie cited there are pretty much the opposite of right, and certainly opposed to the whatwg philosophy
# [21:45] <mjs> I will add that the whatwg phisosophy is remarkably coherent and widely agreed upon within that community without anyone writing an up-front statement of architectural principles
# [21:46] <DanC> that's #xml-media-types , #error-handling , and #versioning ?
# [21:46] <mjs> my ProposedDesignPrinciples doc is just reverse-engineered from observing the group
# [21:46] <mjs> #xml-links
# [21:46] <mjs> I think #error-handling is the most wrong
# [21:46] * anne mostly pointed out #xml-media-types as all browsers just treat text/xml identically to application/xml which imo makes more sense
# [21:47] <Hixie> i just picked three at random, i didn't really try to get a comprehensive list of things that were wrong, btw
# [21:47] <DanC> ok, so that's 3 or 4 or 5. I count 32 in total. a baseball player batting 27/32 could write himself blank checks all day long ;-)
# [21:47] <Hixie> i only looked at about 6. and i didn't understand the ones i didn't cite.
# [21:48] <DanC> I hope we find time to discuss the others in due course.
# [21:48] <Hixie> also, a good batting average for a working group would be "all correct", not 50% or something like a real batter :-)
# [21:50] <DanC> well, I have resigned myself that in consensus-driven standards work, "more good than harm" is a good goal.
# [21:50] <Hixie> that's one reason imho consensus-driven standards work doesn't work
# [21:50] <Hixie> "more good than harm" is imho a very low bar.
# [21:50] <mjs> sometimes making a choice one way or another is more valuable than preserving broader consensus
# [21:51] * DanC detects very little h in those imho statements
# [21:51] <DanC> yes. that's the art of all this.
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# [21:52] <DanC> you can't make everybody happy... but if you piss everybody off, you don't get critical mass.
# [21:52] <Hixie> true
# [21:53] <Hixie> although, depends how you define "everybody"
# [21:53] <Hixie> the whatwg did pretty much piss everybody at w3c off as far as i can tell
# [21:53] <DanC> not me.
# [21:53] <Hixie> but it clearly got critical mass :-)
# [21:54] <DanC> in fact, there's now a formal decision process that pretty strongly suggests that the WHATWG pissed off only a small part of the W3C constituency.
# [21:54] <mjs> I think this TAG principle is good, but widely ignored by the W3C: http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#orthogonal-specs
# [21:54] <Hixie> (http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/mime-respect-20060412 is another tag finding that a lot of people disagree with)
# [21:55] <Hixie> (i have to say that a lot of the tag findings are things i can't say that i disagree with, but i also can't say that i agree with them. i often don't really understand the applicability to the web.)
# [21:55] <Hixie> mjs: yeah, that's a good principle indeed
# [21:55] <DanC> yes, hixie, your objection to mime-respect-20060412 is noted. hmm... maybe not clearly enough, though. I still think respecting MIME types is good for web architecture, but I see both sides.
# [21:55] <Hixie> i'd love content-type to be respected across the board.
# [21:56] <Hixie> i think it would be wonderful if the web worked like that.
# [21:56] <Hixie> but it doesn't, and can't.
# [21:56] <Hixie> it's an example of what mjs was saying -- the tag's structure leads it to make ivory tower statements.
# [21:56] <DanC> "it doesn't" I agree with. but "can't"? I dunno.
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# [21:57] <mjs> DanC: if we boil the ocean it could work that way
# [21:57] <anne> DanC, did you guys talk to the MSIE team about that finding?
# [21:57] <DanC> yes
# [21:57] <DanC> well, indirectly, via...
# [21:57] <anne> and they would fix their implementation to respect it?
# [21:57] <DanC> umm... Paul Cotton
# [21:57] <Hixie> if browsers started honouring content-types on <img> elements, very few images on the web would render anymore.
# [21:58] <Hixie> if browsers honoured text/plain content-types, very few videos would be downloadable anymore
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# [21:58] <Hixie> if they honoured the type of documents intended to be stylesheets, very few CSS files would apply any more
# [21:58] <Hixie> i mean you just can't do it
# [21:58] <DanC> IE has fixed some aspects of their broken MIME support, when they turned into security issues.
# [21:58] <Hixie> there's so much that depends on ignoring content-type.
# [21:59] <anne> I believe CSS is respected in standards mode. We recently fixed something there anyway...
# [22:00] <Hixie> yeah, but there's a reason that's in standards mode only
# [22:00] <DanC> The TAG knows we're pushing water uphill w.r.t. MIME types, at least to some extent. I think it's worthwhile.
# [22:00] <mjs> respecting content-type would have been good but it's just not feasible to try to apply it after the fact
# [22:00] <DanC> is the game really over? the future is longer than the past
# [22:01] <mjs> pushing water uphill out of a galactic core's gravity well
# [22:01] <anne> DanC, following that line of thought there's not much need for this HTML WG
# [22:01] <anne> DanC, XHTML will work "someday"
# [22:02] <mjs> if the finding were stated with a clear exception for compatibility, perhaps listing some of the cases where the finding is impractical to apply, it will make more sense
# [22:02] <mjs> *it would make more sense
# [22:02] <DanC> ah. now you're being so reasonable that I'm obliged to follow up on that idea, mjs.
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# [22:03] <mjs> then you could take it as a principle for design of future features, rather than an attempt to deny reality
# [22:03] <Hixie> feeds is another place where you have to ignore content-type
# [22:04] <mjs> but even then, you'd think about how it interacts with a principle to gracefully handle errors
# [22:04] <Hixie> (the html5 spec has a set of rules for how to sniff the various places it says to sniff)
# [22:04] <anne> feeds is also a perfect example for why XML needs error handling... at least for character encoding issues
# [22:04] <DanC> yes, it's going to be very interesting to review those sniffing rules, Hixie.
# [22:04] <mjs> while text-based formats create a lot of ambiguity problems with sniffing, most binary formats, like image, video or audio types, are unambiguously sniffable from content
# [22:05] <Hixie> yeah
# [22:05] <mjs> so for example there's very little reason to require <video> to fail in cases where the server reports a bad content type
# [22:06] <anne> It would only complicate authoring if we required that I think...
# [22:06] <Hixie> yeah
# [22:06] <Hixie> and would complicated the UA
# [22:07] <mjs> on the other hand, sometimes there can be different content-types for bitwise identical formats that imply different handling
# [22:07] <DanC> my queue of stuff to re-consider in the TAG is full now... could we maybe change the subject? 1/2 ;-)
# [22:07] <mjs> if you were to take things literally, video/3gpp should be handled differently than video/mpeg4-generic when a non-3gpp codec is present
# [22:07] <DanC> I got a wild hair and created a local web design meetup group http://webdesign.meetup.com/448/
# [22:07] <mjs> but it's hard for me to tell a priori if it is better to respect that or not
# [22:08] <Hixie> mjs: would one of the two be a failure?
# [22:08] <mjs> Hixie: not failure, just ignoring tracks in unknown codecs
# [22:08] <mjs> er, disallowed codecs
# [22:08] <Hixie> ignoring data seems like a failure, from the user's standpoint
# [22:08] <mjs> true, it's unlikely someone would want a track to be ignored intentionally and use the MIME type to achieve that
# [22:19] <DanC> OneTrueHTML... that reminds me... http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Activity says "HTML is the family name for the group of languages that form the lingua franca of the World Wide Web." Karl and I changed that to "HTML is the publishing language of the World Wide Web." for http://www.w3.org/html/wg/
# [22:19] <DanC> the Activity statement is supposed to get negotiated actively every 6 months. 26 March was an internal deadline that got missed, so that process is at risk...
# [22:20] <DanC> ... but that Activity statement also tends to get read to reporters and such, so it does have some impact
# [22:20] <anne> HTML5 will probably make it the application language of the web as well...
# [22:21] <h3h> applications are published, in a sense
# [22:21] <mjs> what's an Activity statement?
# [22:22] <DanC> the way TimBL put it in 1990 was, "There is a set of formats which every client must be able to handle. These include 80-column text and basic hypertext ( HTML )." -- http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Formats
# [22:22] <DanC> an Activity statement is part of the "here's what we did with your money for the last 6 months" checks and balances at W3C
# [22:23] * Quits: kingryan (kingryan@66.92.187.33) (Ping timeout)
# [22:23] <DanC> "and what we're going to do with it for the next 6 months"
# [22:23] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.242) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
# [22:23] <mjs> who is the audience for those statements? W3C Member organizations?
# [22:23] <DanC> they're world-readable...
# [22:24] <DanC> they sometimes get printed as marketing materials
# [22:24] <DanC> I mean... they mostly get ignored, of course.
# [22:24] <mjs> when is the next HTML one due?
# [22:24] <DanC> the next AC meeting is in May
# [22:25] <DanC> the page can get edited at any time, as long as it's with the knowledge and consent of the activity lead. (Steven Pemberton in our case.)
# [22:25] * Joins: kingryan (kingryan@66.92.187.33)
# [22:26] <DanC> like I say, it was supposed to get updated by 26 March, but it didn't. I could either leave it alone or actively do something about it.
# [22:26] <DanC> I'm more likely to actively do something about it if we settle on something inspiring around NoVersioning or OneTrueHTML
# [22:27] <DanC> and the audience includes reporters that call about HTML
# [22:31] <mjs> I could add those directly to the Disputed section for continuing debate
# [22:31] <mjs> the Disputed section should probably try to capture the differing points of view
# [22:31] <DanC> well, yes...
# [22:32] <DanC> sometimes there are principles that conflict, and it's worth documenting both of them
# [22:32] <anne> NoVersioning is also part of CSS, XBL, specs related to CSS...
# [22:32] <DanC> and sometimes there really is a principle and some noteable exeptions.
# [22:33] <DanC> it's really tricky to treat all points of view with due respect without totally watering everything down
# [22:34] <DanC> because parts of the web really do use versioning (or mime types) to achieve evolution, e.g. from GIF to PNG. and the XSLT version attribute seems to work pretty well.
# [22:35] <anne> Does anyone actually implement new versions of XSLT?
# [22:36] * anne thought only XSLT 1.0 was widely deployed
# [22:36] <Zeros> Isn't FF3 supposed to have XSLT2 support?
# [22:36] <DanC> XSLT 2 is catching on; yes, it's implemented
# [22:36] <anne> XML 1.1 is another case where versioning failed miserably...
# [22:36] <DanC> yes, XML 1.1 is a case study in how *not* to do versioning
# [22:37] <gavin_> no, there are no concrete plans for XSLT 2 support in Firefox 3
# [22:37] * anne was about to ask for pointers
# [22:37] <DanC> saxon is the XSLT2 implementaiton that I hear most about
# [22:37] <anne> That's not really a web client is it?
# [22:38] <Zeros> it could be integrated with one
# [22:38] <anne> I mean, in that sense Python 2.5 is being adopted as well...
# [22:38] <DanC> these things tend to get implemented in pointer-safe languages 1st and get implemented in C only later. it'll be interesting to see if XSLT2 requirements ever become worth the cost in contexts like ff
# [22:38] <DanC> ah... in web client code, I'm not aware of any XSLT 2 deployment
# [22:39] * anne should probably have picked a different language than Python which you can sort of use in Firefox in due course
# [22:39] <DanC> python in ff? how?
# [22:40] <anne> DanC, if you're making applications with XULRunner I believe
# [22:40] * anne doesn't know the details
# [22:40] <DanC> javascript is evolving in pythonic directions, and there were python plugins back when java plugins were hip, but I've written off hope of using python in web clients directly
# [22:41] <jgraham> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/PyDOM
# [22:41] <jgraham> (you can't access it from untrusted content)
# [22:42] <DanC> I don't see any installation instructions; it's not built-in currently, is it?
# [22:43] <jgraham> It's on the trunk but I don't know if it's compiled by default
# [22:43] <DanC> wild. learn something new every day
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# [23:02] <h3h> "pointer-safe" heh
# [23:03] <h3h> more like..."pointer-challenged" ;)
# [23:10] <Zeros> DanC, JS is evolving in pythonic directions?
# [23:10] <Zeros> Seems like ECMAScript is getting more and more like java with each iteration, just look at AS3
# [23:13] * DanC thinks he bookmarked something under http://del.icio.us/connolly/python+javascript ...
# [23:14] <anne> brendan said on his blog it'd be more Pythonic
# [23:14] <anne> or somewhere else
# [23:14] <DanC> yeah, that rings a bell. I can't find it just now
# [23:14] <anne> or maybe during XTech last year or some other presentation I've seen...
# [23:15] <h3h> ES4 is adding many Pythonic things, like generators and array comprehensions
# [23:16] <h3h> http://developer.mozilla.org/es4/ for details
# [23:16] <Zeros> E4X is pretty nice
# [23:16] <h3h> (and a few Java-like things... traditional classes, interfaces, etc.)
# [23:18] <Zeros> pretty much ripped right out of Java/C#, "public static override function foo() : void"
# [23:18] * anne thinks E4X is pretty bloated
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# [23:19] <h3h> E4X targets a very specific type of development
# [23:20] <Zeros> you could also use XPath
# [23:20] <Zeros> both keep you from mucking around with the DOM interfaces
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# Session Close: Sat Mar 31 00:00:01 2007

The end :)