/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-04-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Apr 09 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  16. # [02:38] <Philip> karl: I've been doing a bit of work on canvas tests at http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/ - the "Annotated specification" part is possibly interesting
  17. # [02:38] <Philip> That part of the spec seems almost entirely self-contained (except for some bits about parsing numbers, I think), so it looks like it would be easy to separate it out into its own specification
  18. # [02:39] <Philip> (I don't expect that'd make it any easier to write/test/implement than with it being a self-contained section in the middle of the HTML5 spec, but presumably it would help in getting that part finished sooner and making the rest of HTML5 smaller)
  19. # [02:40] <karl> interesting
  20. # [02:41] <karl> very cool work
  21. # [02:41] <karl> you just send it to the list
  22. # [02:41] <Philip> I'm not on the list, unfortunately
  23. # [02:42] <Philip> (Maybe I should try joining some time, but I don't have much time to be involved at the moment :-( )
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  25. # [03:12] <Hixie> wow, microsoft really want to introduce a new rendering mode
  26. # [03:12] <Hixie> can you imagine what life will be like in 10 years if they do this with every release
  27. # [03:19] <mjs> even if they have the resources to do this for every release, I don't think anyone else does
  28. # [03:19] <mjs> I guess they feel really burned by the IE7 experience
  29. # [03:21] <Hixie> so every web page has to start with an "opt-in" to use the latest IE technology?
  30. # [03:22] <Hixie> that's not gonna work
  31. # [03:22] <Hixie> in fact it's directly against one of our principles, maybe even two
  32. # [03:22] <mjs> using the HTML version as an IE-specific standards compliance opt-in is also abusive of other browser
  33. # [03:24] <Hixie> the whole thing is ridiculous
  34. # [03:24] <Philip> For fairness to the others, the version 'number' should be an infinite-dimensional vector, with a separate axis for each browser than does/will exist
  35. # [03:44] <mjs> ok, I want to reply to Chris Wilson but I think my response may be too inflammatory
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  37. # [03:44] <mjs> would anyone like to preview it for me?
  38. # [03:44] <karl> mjs send it to yourself, let it lie for 24h
  39. # [03:45] <karl> do not work on sundays ;) and read it again on monday
  40. # [03:45] <mjs> karl: I can save it in my drafts folder, but I don't think it will be more clear come Monday
  41. # [03:46] <mjs> it wasn't written in anger or anything
  42. # [03:46] <mjs> I just asked if Microsoft doesn't plan to ever conform to any spec the HTMLWG comes out with, why we should listen to their input
  43. # [03:47] <mjs> which seems like a rude thing to say, but also kind of a valid question
  44. # [03:48] <karl> mjs: I guess it's part of the consensus building. Chris is not alone to be in favor of version numbers.
  45. # [03:49] <karl> the best in this kind of cases
  46. # [03:49] <karl> is not to target products or people
  47. # [03:49] <karl> but technology
  48. # [03:49] <mjs> he's saying he wants version numbers because for each version, Microsoft will stop fixing conformance bugs at some point
  49. # [03:49] <mjs> and won't try to make those bugs errata to the spec
  50. # [03:49] <mjs> that seems like he's saying the spec should have versions because Microsoft will never conform to it
  51. # [03:49] <karl> I think the debate is interesting and when I read emails, it gives interesting views on both sides.
  52. # [03:50] <mjs> which seems like an invalid argument to me
  53. # [03:50] <mjs> I don't even care that much about versioning, just his apparent claim that Microsoft plans to have an unbounded number of undocumented quirks modes
  54. # [03:50] <karl> so the better is to make an argumentation with two columns and with the pros and cons for each side.
  55. # [03:51] <mjs> I think the problem is that what seems like a pro to him (ability of Microsoft to lock in their particular set of bugs forever) seems like a con to other people
  56. # [03:52] <karl> versioning existing in any language environment, in life, etc. We can't understand English from 500 years ago without a dictionary of this time, because semantics evolve. Or we have to be ready to do misunderstanding or even worse wrong interpretation.
  57. # [03:52] <karl> it is specifically we have a live language that it makes it difficult :)
  58. # [03:52] <karl> on another side,
  59. # [03:52] <mjs> but Shakespeare's plays are not tagged with a version number
  60. # [03:52] <karl> yes
  61. # [03:52] <karl> they are
  62. # [03:52] <karl> definitely
  63. # [03:52] <karl> it is called a year
  64. # [03:53] <karl> :)
  65. # [03:53] <karl> I think on both side on HTML versioning there are good arguments
  66. # [03:53] <karl> It would be worthwhile to not take positions, but more to write down the pros/cons.
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  68. # [03:54] <karl> for me I haven't made up my mind. :) and it doesn't matter what I think ;) I must stay neutral. that is my burden ;)
  69. # [03:54] <Philip> Is his desire for "100.000% backward-compatible" actually possible (or nearly so), with the approach HTML5 has taken?
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  71. # [03:56] <Philip> (I don't quite understand his comments about deprecated features - that seems like a purely author-oriented issue (even if the deprecated feature is removed entirely), and the spec can (and must, if it's going to be compatible with old content) still specify the UA behaviour for those deprecated/removed features)
  72. # [04:01] <Hixie> mjs: sure, i can check your mail for appropriateness
  73. # [04:08] <nickshanks> shouldn't UA behaviour be contained in a separate, kept-up-to-date document from the HTML5 spec
  74. # [04:09] <Dashiva> mjs: I sent a very short mail along some of those lines just now, although it might not be keen enough to make the point (punny)
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  79. # [05:02] <Lachy> I really don't understand Chris. I think he's just being stubborn and ignorant
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  85. # [05:23] * Hixie hopes chris isn't one of lachlan's friends on twitter
  86. # [05:23] <Lachy> nope, he's not
  87. # [05:24] <Hixie> he's only one step removed then :-)
  88. # [05:24] <Lachy> I didn't call him names, just insulted his ideas
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  90. # [05:32] <Hixie> i've found people in the htmlwg from the w3c side to be especially thin-skinned, fwiw
  91. # [05:42] * karl would recommend everyone to keep a correct tone on a group channel.
  92. # [05:43] <Lachy> karl: agreed. That's why I used twitter
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  118. # [11:32] <anne> 7 new IEs so far
  119. # [11:32] <anne> today
  120. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> anne - any names you recognize
  121. # [11:36] <anne> nope
  122. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> so have now reached the 300 member mark in one month
  123. # [11:52] <MikeSmith> I would guess it'd be at least 400 by this time next month
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  126. # [11:54] <hsivonen> I don't see new Microsoft Corporation representatives on the participant list. are you talking about something else?
  127. # [11:55] <hasather> hsivonen: anne meant Invited Experts by IE
  128. # [11:55] <hsivonen> oh
  129. # [12:18] <MikeSmith> I hope some developers from KDE/KHTML/Konqueror will join the WG
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  137. # [14:40] <MikeSmith> just read Art Barstow's "Shaping the future of secure Ajax mashups" posting to the public-appformats list
  138. # [14:41] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/mid/44451BAE-376D-4E7F-B956-22DF70845B13@nokia.com
  139. # [14:42] <MikeSmith> was there ever any discussion on the whatwg list of Douglas Crockford's proposal for a <module> tag?
  140. # [14:42] <MikeSmith> element
  141. # [14:42] <MikeSmith> http://json.org/module
  142. # [14:42] <anne> yeah, I think so
  143. # [14:43] <anne> but it seems that cross-site XHR and cross document messaging cover both...
  144. # [14:43] <MikeSmith> ah, yeah
  145. # [14:43] <anne> no need for JSONRequest and <module>
  146. # [14:43] <MikeSmith> yeah, I found the thread and reading it now
  147. # [14:47] <MikeSmith> anne - Web API WG is working on spec'ing (or adopting spec for) cross-document messaging? or planning to?
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  152. # [15:18] <anne> nope
  153. # [16:19] <mjs> what is <module>?
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  155. # [16:35] <MikeSmith> mjs - something that Douglas Crockford wrote a proposal for
  156. # [16:35] <MikeSmith> http://json.org/module
  157. # [16:36] <MikeSmith> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2006-October/007522.html
  158. # [16:51] <mjs> sounds like cross-document messaging will work just as well w/o having to introduce a new element
  159. # [16:54] <mjs> I wish Doug Crockford would follow HTML standards work more closely if he wants to make proposals like that
  160. # [16:55] <anne> he made that proposal on the whatwg list ages ago
  161. # [16:56] <anne> i think since then he's sort of convinced that cross-doc is the way to go
  162. # [16:56] <anne> but i'm not entirely sure
  163. # [16:57] <mjs> October 2006 isn't all that long ago
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  165. # [16:57] <anne> fair enough
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  169. # [17:29] <tylerr> G'day everyone.
  170. # [17:34] * anne just made http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Changes_from_HTML4#New_Attributes
  171. # [17:42] <MikeSmith> anne - have you or anybody else written up a brief description of the html5 parsing algorithm?
  172. # [17:42] <MikeSmith> briefer than reading the whole wepapps1.0 spec, I mean
  173. # [17:42] <anne> how would that work?
  174. # [17:42] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I have written a very short goal-level description twice
  175. # [17:43] * hsivonen looks them up
  176. # [17:43] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - also wanted to ask if your PDF version of the webapps1.0 spec is linked to on the site anywhere
  177. # [17:43] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/thesis/html5-conformance-checker.xhtml#p122
  178. # [17:44] <hsivonen> (unstable fragment id)
  179. # [17:44] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it is linked to on my site. not on whatwg.
  180. # [17:44] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - OK, thanks
  181. # [17:45] <nickshanks> what is the reasoning for allowing <font> when inserted by WYSIWYG editors. there are no such editors for HTML5 yet, so any ones that come along can be made without using <font>
  182. # [17:46] <anne> <font> isn't done yet
  183. # [17:46] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the other one is in http://groups.google.fi/group/comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html/msg/963cbf7f54567bff
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  185. # [17:47] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I think it would make sense to generate Letter and A4 PDFs is a post-commit hook on the Dreamhost server
  186. # [17:47] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: but that requires the appropriate Prince license
  187. # [17:48] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - yeah, that would be good. I think Mike Day would probably be happy to give you license
  188. # [17:48] <anne> nickshanks, " Usage varies widely by language." sounds like commentary
  189. # [17:48] <MikeSmith> would be good to have the PDF linked to straight from the online (HTML) spec
  190. # [17:49] <anne> nickshanks, the quotes from those elements (<b> too) is taken literally from the HTML5 spec...
  191. # [17:49] <nickshanks> well i am trying to point out that "ship names" is just English
  192. # [17:49] <anne> s/quotes/description/
  193. # [17:49] <nickshanks> oh right. shame that isn't a wiki too
  194. # [17:50] * anne shrugs
  195. # [17:50] <anne> MikeSmith, arrange it :)
  196. # [17:54] <MikeSmith> anne - I'd be happy to. Is there currently any kind of build that runs when the spec is updated (using make or ant or whatever)?
  197. # [17:54] <anne> if you arrange some script that makes a PDF I'm sure Hixie can integrate it
  198. # [17:54] <MikeSmith> OK
  199. # [17:55] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - you want to contact Prince/Mike Day and ask about the license? Or you want me to?
  200. # [17:56] <anne> lol, Dao is funny
  201. # [17:56] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - and I don't find any link for the PDF on your home page
  202. # [17:56] <anne> he suggests that XSLT can be used but then he never used it...
  203. # [17:57] <Dashiva> Is that the html60 guy?
  204. # [17:57] <anne> no
  205. # [17:57] <anne> dao@design-noir.de
  206. # [18:00] <MikeSmith> ah, "Printing Web Apps 1.0" . I see it now
  207. # [18:01] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: should be under blogish notes
  208. # [18:02] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - yeah, got it
  209. # [18:02] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it would be nice if you contacted him
  210. # [18:03] <MikeSmith> OK, will do
  211. # [18:03] <MikeSmith> do you guys have shell access to the Dreamhost server?
  212. # [18:03] <hsivonen> I don't.
  213. # [18:03] <anne> only Hixie I guess
  214. # [18:04] <hsivonen> I think Hixie is the only one with the required level of access
  215. # [18:04] <anne> heh, people did indeed want to remove <div> (re: last post)
  216. # [18:04] <anne> and <b> and <i> are back in
  217. # [18:05] <anne> and all for reasons of more "semantic" markup
  218. # [18:05] <hsivonen> to my knowledge, Lachy and zcorpan are sandboxed away from the spec virtual host
  219. # [18:05] <MikeSmith> well, I guess we don't necessarily need to have the PDF build script run on the Dreamhost server
  220. # [18:06] <anne> just give the script to Hixie; the main thing is the license for Prince
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  224. # [19:20] <mjs> good morning everybody
  225. # [19:20] <tylerr> Hey there mjs, how was the weekend?
  226. # [19:20] <mjs> it was fun, I went to a rodeo
  227. # [19:20] <mjs> the bull-riding event reminded me a lot of working in a standards committe
  228. # [19:20] <mjs> e
  229. # [19:24] <tylerr> Haha nice!
  230. # [19:28] <tylerr> Well hopefully everything will get wrangled in here pretty soon.
  231. # [19:28] <tylerr> I'm waiting for things to get a bit more organized.
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  234. # [20:08] * anne is curious about Microsoft's versionining pov
  235. # [20:08] <anne> versioning*
  236. # [20:10] * mjs hopes the essay won't just be an attempt to avoid being clear on the issue
  237. # [20:10] <anne> yeah...
  238. # [20:11] <anne> I thought your questions already framed it enough...
  239. # [20:11] <anne> guess not
  240. # [20:12] <mjs> I thought it was a pretty simple question, yeah
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  242. # [20:24] <tylerr> We work with MS pretty closely, everything is about keep things foggy. :-)
  243. # [20:24] <tylerr> s/keep/keeping
  244. # [20:25] <tylerr> But for the work we do it needs to be since everything changes so much on the fly, so it works to our advantage.
  245. # [20:31] <tylerr> Anyway, any progress made this weekend? I've been away for a few days.
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  253. # [21:21] <Hixie> in Priority of Constituencies, i'd like to suggest an addition
  254. # [21:21] <Hixie> it currently says "In case of conflict, consider users over authors over implementors over specifiers"
  255. # [21:21] <Hixie> I'd like to add "over theoretical purity" at the end there.
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  257. # [21:24] <Hixie> to prevent people from splitting the spec when all it would do is make more work for the editor(s)
  258. # [21:25] <Hixie> e.g. innerHTML, or setTimeout or Window...
  259. # [21:26] <Zeros> So you're saying just add innerHTML to the spec and be done with it?
  260. # [21:26] <Hixie> for instance
  261. # [21:26] <Hixie> instead of making two specs
  262. # [21:33] * Parts: asbjornu (asbjorn@84.48.116.134)
  263. # [21:36] <anne> yes, same for <canvas>
  264. # [21:39] <Zeros> A separate spec for the canvas API would be beneficial since they could update that separately and leave HTML alone
  265. # [21:39] <Philip> Same for 3D canvas too?
  266. # [21:39] <Zeros> We wouldn't need HTML5.01 to get extra canvas features
  267. # [21:40] <anne> it would just be part of HTML6
  268. # [21:41] <Zeros> The larger the spec the more difficult it is to modify it later and get it pushed out
  269. # [21:41] <Zeros> How many years did it take to get HTML5 going?
  270. # [21:42] <Zeros> We've had 3 versions of CSS, 3 DOM levels
  271. # [21:42] <anne> Get going where?
  272. # [21:42] * Joins: jgraham (jgraham@81.178.84.187)
  273. # [21:43] <Zeros> anne, anywhere, HTML4.01 was the last version of HTML that was actually implemented since 1999
  274. # [21:43] <anne> HTML5 started in 2004
  275. # [21:43] <Philip> People seem happy to implement and use features from heavily-under-development specs, so I suppose it wouldn't matter if new features are in an HTML6 working draft that won't be a recommendation until a decade later because it's being held up by all the other unrelated features - if it's good, people will use it regardless of the official status
  276. # [21:43] <Zeros> anne, WHATWG started a group in 2004, the W3 was not working on it
  277. # [21:43] <anne> people will use interoperable implemented features
  278. # [21:44] <anne> Zeros, so?
  279. # [21:44] <Zeros> anne, I fail to see how making the canvas API separate so it can evolve faster and be implemented separately is a problem
  280. # [21:44] <anne> it started in 2004 and not earlier because the W3C didn't do anything about it, btw
  281. # [21:44] <Zeros> anne, clearly, and that's till 5 years later
  282. # [21:44] <anne> Zeros, I don't see it evolving faster separately
  283. # [21:44] <anne> do you have an editor?
  284. # [21:45] <Zeros> Maybe Apple should take it, since its their project, heh.
  285. # [21:45] <anne> right...
  286. # [21:45] <Zeros> And there's already talk about Canvas3D
  287. # [21:45] <anne> next topic
  288. # [21:45] <Zeros> anne, that was sarcasm, do you have an editor for HTML6?
  289. # [21:45] <anne> yeah, both Mozilla and Opera have experimental implementations
  290. # [21:46] <anne> Zeros, yes, Hixie, by the looks of it
  291. # [21:46] <Zeros> anne, you're advocating that Canvas should be left alone and the spec not changed
  292. # [21:46] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@86.34.246.154) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  293. # [21:46] <Zeros> so I don't why we need a separate editor now anyway
  294. # [21:46] <anne> (of Canvas 3D)
  295. # [21:46] <anne> Zeros, I'm not
  296. # [21:46] <anne> Zeros, Hixie stated he doesn't want to edit several specs, which makes sense, as it's a lot more work
  297. # [21:47] <Zeros> Last I checked Canvas wasn't hixie's responsibility
  298. # [21:47] <anne> ?
  299. # [21:47] <Zeros> "Regarding <canvas>. <canvas> is mostly done. There are three implementations in browsers that are becoming more interoperable each release. " is what you said
  300. # [21:47] <anne> yes
  301. # [21:48] <Zeros> maciej said that the spec is pretty much finalized
  302. # [21:48] <anne> yes
  303. # [21:48] <Zeros> so how is it more work for Hixie?
  304. # [21:48] <Zeros> To put the canvas in a separate API spec that can be implemented outside HTML5 support and modified later
  305. # [21:48] <Philip> There would be some more work where the <canvas> definition depends on other parts of the HTML5 spec
  306. # [21:49] <anne> you need a whole new template for your new spec, all the definitions need to be redone to be independent of the HTML5 doc, etc.
  307. # [21:49] <Zeros> Philip, where? Canvas doesn't depend on it now.
  308. # [21:49] <anne> anyway, not worth discussing until someone finds an editor
  309. # [21:50] <Philip> I think it's just in the width/height attributes, where it interacts with the DOM
  310. # [21:50] <Philip> (so that's only a pretty small area)
  311. # [21:50] <Zeros> Philip, so reference the relevant spec like the HTML4 spec does?
  312. # [21:51] <Zeros> Both the DOM and CSS evolved independently of the HTML spec. If they were one giant spec we'd have HTML6.25 or some such
  313. # [21:51] <Philip> I'd assume it can't normatively reference the HTML5 spec until the HTML5 spec is done. I have no idea if there's some other spec which defines the same things that could be used instead
  314. # [21:52] <anne> CanvasRenderingContext2D.canvas would be a problem
  315. # [21:52] <anne> the drawImage() methods would be problematic
  316. # [21:53] <Zeros> how so?
  317. # [21:53] <anne> etc.
  318. # [21:53] <Zeros> What makes it easier to put them inside the HTML5 spec?
  319. # [21:53] <anne> also, see above
  320. # [21:54] <Philip> Ah, the .canvas would be a problem if the <canvas> bit is separate from the Context2D bit, since the Context2D needs to know about the existence of HTMLCanvasElement
  321. # [21:56] <Zeros> Philip, its just a rendering context, it can be specified to reference the DOM node. Like the DOM spec already does
  322. # [21:56] <Philip> It seems to me like it'd just add unnecessary administrative overhead to maintain separate somewhat-parallel specs
  323. # [21:56] <Zeros> Philip, HTMLSelectElement is in a separate spec from the <form> tag which it references with .form
  324. # [21:57] <Zeros> This isn't a new idea
  325. # [21:58] <anne> yes, and that spec is totally broken
  326. # [21:58] <Zeros> What's broken about the DOM spec exactly?
  327. # [21:58] <anne> lots of things
  328. # [21:58] <Zeros> like what? :)
  329. # [21:59] <Philip> It looks like HTMLSelectElement references HTMLFormElement with its .form, and that is in the same spec
  330. # [21:59] <Zeros> Philip, So Context2D can't reference HTMLCanvasElement?
  331. # [22:00] <Philip> (and HTMLFormElement appears to only vaguely say it's related to the <form> element from HTML)
  332. # [22:00] <Zeros> If it was a separate spec it could be implemented for other things that don't necessarily apply directly to HTML as well.
  333. # [22:00] <Zeros> The same way CSS applies to arbitrary XML and structured documents
  334. # [22:00] <anne> atm it's pretty much tied to HTML
  335. # [22:00] <anne> see my earlier references
  336. # [22:00] <Zeros> If CSS was lumped in with the entire HTML spec that'd a be a problem
  337. # [22:00] <anne> depends on how it was defined
  338. # [22:01] <anne> s/was/is/
  339. # [22:01] <Zeros> Then the same is true of placing the Canvas API in a separate spec
  340. # [22:04] <Philip> I think I was thinking that if Context2D references HTMLCanvasElement, HTMLCanvasElement has to be defined somewhere; and if that's in the HTML5 spec (which seems the proper place for it), the Context2D spec would be held up by HTML5, so it couldn't be done any faster than if it was still part of HTML5
  341. # [22:04] <anne> and vice versa
  342. # [22:04] <anne> besides that it makes for editorial overhead
  343. # [22:06] <Philip> The same problems probably wouldn't apply for a far-future Context3D spec, since HTML5 and HTMLCanvasElement will already be defined, and since HTML5 doesn't refer to Context3D (whereas it does refer back to Context2D, since that's a required part of <canvas>)
  344. # [22:06] <anne> in fact, Opera already specced an extension and submitted that and based on that and other feedback <canvas> moved to v2
  345. # [22:06] <Zeros> Philip, Canvas doesn't really need to refer to HTML at all
  346. # [22:07] <Zeros> If the spec was written properly it would be implemented for anything outside HTML
  347. # [22:07] <anne> why do you need it there?
  348. # [22:07] <Zeros> anne, The same reason you need SVG or CSS outside HTML
  349. # [22:07] <Philip> I'm not sure why it'd be useful outside HTML, since everything else already has 2D graphics APIs and OpenGL wrappers
  350. # [22:08] <anne> yeah, it's very much about the element too
  351. # [22:08] <Zeros> its just a 2d rendering context
  352. # [22:08] <anne> which can be used by applications to provide bitmap drawing
  353. # [22:08] <anne> or for games, etc.
  354. # [22:08] <Zeros> Its slow as hell and a real processor hog for games atm.
  355. # [22:09] <Zeros> or any realtime changes
  356. # [22:09] <anne> what browser are you testing in?
  357. # [22:09] <Philip> I can get ~20fps 320x240 3D out of <canvas>, which isn't bad compared to Doom (at least when Doom is on a processor that's ~30 times slower)
  358. # [22:10] <Philip> (and I even have bilinear texture filtering, which Doom doesn't, though I don't actually want bilinear texture filtering because it's kind of slow :-( )
  359. # [22:10] <Zeros> anne, Safari and Firefox, all things considered it uses about 80% of the processor to render a raster world.
  360. # [22:11] <Zeros> Flash would be a much better solution than canvas, and has much better support
  361. # [22:11] <Zeros> I don't imagine canvas is very fast in IE where it had to be emulated with JS either
  362. # [22:12] <Philip> It's actually emulated with VML (using a JS wrapper to construct it), so the rendering is probably not much slower than in other browsers
  363. # [22:12] <Philip> (though it totally doesn't follow the canvas spec at all, so it's unlikely any non-trivial games would work in it)
  364. # [22:13] <Zeros> http://developer.mozilla.org/samples/raycaster/RayCaster.html gets me 75% of the processor when walking around
  365. # [22:13] <Philip> Flash is probably a much better solution that <video> too - it has much better support, it has no problems with codecs, etc
  366. # [22:13] <Zeros> Firefox 2
  367. # [22:13] <Zeros> Philip, funny that
  368. # [22:14] <Philip> except it's proprietary technology, which is why HTML people want to provide alternatives :-)
  369. # [22:14] <Philip> That's a really rubbishly implemented raycaster :-p
  370. # [22:14] <Philip> (http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/ is mine)
  371. # [22:14] <anne> I think that demo relies on some old canvas quirks
  372. # [22:14] <anne> too
  373. # [22:16] <anne> pretty cool Philip
  374. # [22:16] <Philip> (It takes ~100% CPU, because it loops as fast as it can - it could intentionally reduce the framerate to save a bit)
  375. # [22:18] <Philip> Hmm, looks like that RayCaster.html isn't doing any kind of beginPath so it's going to be stroking longer and longer paths all the time, which will kill performance
  376. # [22:19] <Hixie> good lord let's not put canvas into another spec
  377. # [22:19] <Hixie> i have enough work as it is
  378. # [22:19] <Zeros> No one said you need to be the sole editor
  379. # [22:20] <Hixie> unless you have another volunteer...
  380. # [22:20] <Hixie> or i should say, until you have another volunteer
  381. # [22:20] <Philip> It seems rather hard finding other good editors, unfortunately
  382. # [22:20] <Zeros> Philip, I get redirected to http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com.nyud.net:8080/83/play.xhtml which gets me a server not found error
  383. # [22:20] <Zeros> oh, i see the little uncached link
  384. # [22:21] <Philip> Oh, that caching system doesn't really seem to work at the moment...
  385. # [22:22] <Zeros> At least the other one is smart enough to idle the processing while you're not moving around
  386. # [22:22] <Zeros> Yours chews 76% standing still, 82% moving around
  387. # [22:22] <Zeros> 5fps on your counter too
  388. # [22:22] <Philip> That's because I've got animated sprites and moving doors, and it's not clever enough to detect that nothing is visibly changing
  389. # [22:24] <Zeros> still a pretty cool doom clone
  390. # [22:24] <Philip> ((Removed the cached link, since it's not very useful))
  391. # [22:24] <anne> didn't work for me either
  392. # [22:24] <Zeros> Maybe when Tamarin is added to Firefox we'll see that get more practical
  393. # [22:24] <Philip> In the starting position, I get ~15fps in Firefox 3
  394. # [22:24] * Joins: mw22 (chatzilla@63.245.220.228)
  395. # [22:24] <anne> Philip, you should use 'new Audio()' for shooting sounds :)
  396. # [22:25] <Philip> It's spending almost all its time drawing bits of image onto the screen, not in the JS code
  397. # [22:26] <anne> that should go for every browser methinks
  398. # [22:27] <Philip> anne: Then I'd have to add guns and things to shoot at - I had enough problems getting the collision detection to roughly work, so I decided not to spend ages adding more gameplay :-)
  399. # [22:27] <anne> see http://people.opera.com/howcome/2006/canvasdemo/canvascape/shoot.html for shooting sounds and such
  400. # [22:28] <anne> actually, it's prolly a jumping sound :)
  401. # [22:28] <anne> (copy from http://www.abrahamjoffe.com.au/ben/canvascape/ with added Audio() stuff)
  402. # [22:29] <Philip> (I get ~15fps in FF3, ~13fps in FF2, and ~11fps in Opera 9)
  403. # [22:30] <anne> in your game I get 20fps in Opera 9
  404. # [22:33] <Philip> The audio seems to work nicely
  405. # [22:34] <Zeros> oh I'm getting 13fps in Opera 9
  406. # [22:34] <Zeros> much smoother too
  407. # [22:34] <Zeros> Firefox 2 must just be slow
  408. # [22:34] <Philip> (Can't tell from that example whether it can mix multiple sounds nicely, though)
  409. # [22:37] <Zeros> oh
  410. # [22:37] <Zeros> that must be a bug
  411. # [22:37] <Zeros> I walked through a wall in Safari
  412. # [22:37] <Zeros> and now I'm getting 52fps
  413. # [22:38] <Philip> (Hmm, it seems Opera doesn't mix sounds, even if I construct a new Audio object each time I play it)
  414. # [22:38] <Philip> (Oh, wait, it mixes sounds but only if they have different filenames)
  415. # [22:39] <Zeros> Guess I need to do a reduction on that :/
  416. # [22:39] <Zeros> Something with Safari, walking backwards in the blue area in the middle of the room makes you jump outside the game world
  417. # [22:40] <anne> Philip, interesting...
  418. # [22:41] <Philip> Hmm - in theory, it shouldn't be possible to jump outside the world
  419. # [22:41] <Zeros> Philip, almost looks as if I'm falling through the floor when I see other things move a little bit
  420. # [22:41] <Zeros> most of the graphics get frozen when it happens
  421. # [22:41] <Zeros> and Safari reports "Undefined Value on line 1" with no file reference
  422. # [22:42] <Philip> I've never tested my code with Safari, so I'm quite possibly doing something broken that it doesn't like :-)
  423. # [22:42] <Zeros> Yeah, I feel through the floor
  424. # [22:42] <Zeros> fell*
  425. # [22:42] <Zeros> I can see the world above me trough a little crack and I can still hit walls
  426. # [22:42] <Zeros> weird
  427. # [22:43] <Philip> Does that happen at the point where you walk over the small raised bit onto the reddish surface?
  428. # [22:43] <Philip> And does it happen if you jump over that bit?
  429. # [22:44] <Philip> (I guess it dislikes the bit where you move from one of the level's sectors into another, in which case it'd still happen if you try jumping through the division)
  430. # [22:44] <Zeros> Looks it happens when you walk over that little step and you're turning
  431. # [22:44] <Zeros> straight over it and its fine
  432. # [22:45] <Philip> Urgh, sounds like it's issues with floating point inaccuracies
  433. # [22:45] <Philip> (There are problems in other browsers if you stand directly in the corner near the box, since the maths gets confused and it was too hard to want to fix)
  434. # [22:46] <Philip> (*gets confused by being precisely on a dividing line in the world)
  435. # [22:46] <Zeros> ah okay
  436. # [22:47] <Zeros> Philip, http://enfinitystudios.thaposse.net/world.png
  437. # [22:48] <Zeros> Depending on how you do it you may or may not get a little sliver in the view that still changes as you move around
  438. # [22:48] <Zeros> That's what that grey line in the middle is
  439. # [22:49] <Zeros> The footer dropping is another issue entirely, that I should look into as well since both Opera and Firefox don't do it
  440. # [22:49] <Philip> Hmm, do you not see barrel sprites in the corners? (It looks like they're missing from that image)
  441. # [22:50] <Zeros> Philip, I do when I'm in the world. Once it breaks all the sprites disappear and you're left with a view that's frozen in one position, sometimes pretty mangled with various parts of different walls
  442. # [22:50] <Philip> Ah, okay
  443. # [22:51] <Zeros> Either way Safari is getting 7-10fps when its not broken and Opera is getting 13fps average here
  444. # [22:51] <Zeros> Firefox 2 is painfully slow at 5fps
  445. # [22:51] <Zeros> Whatever they did to the mac version I guess...
  446. # [22:52] <Philip> If you select the "large" size while it's in that broken state, does the screen go mostly black?
  447. # [22:52] <Zeros> oh
  448. # [22:52] <Zeros> let me test
  449. # [22:52] <Philip> That ought to clear all the stuff it's rendered in previous frames
  450. # [22:53] <Philip> FF2 has always been a bit faster than O9 for me on Windows, though FF1.5 was a bit slower - maybe the new renderer in FF3 will be better on Macs, or maybe that'll be just as broken...
  451. # [22:54] <Zeros> Yeah it fixes it
  452. # [22:54] <Zeros> Are you returning false from the onkeypress or onkeydown events you're using?
  453. # [22:54] <Zeros> Safari is ignoring it and scrolling the page
  454. # [22:56] <Philip> No - I'm just calling evt.preventDefault() in keypress, and doing nothing interesting in keydown/keyup, and returning nothing from either
  455. # [22:57] <Zeros> which file is that in?
  456. # [22:57] <Philip> game.js
  457. # [22:58] <Zeros> Alright, I'll reduce it and add a ticket later
  458. # [22:58] <Philip> (preventDefault was enough to prevent Opera stealing the keys, if I remember correctly)
  459. # [22:58] <Zeros> Found a nasty crash bug with plugins sleeping in Safari too I need to submit tonight :/
  460. # [22:58] <Philip> Unfortunately this kind of code isn't the nicest thing to extract bug reports from :-(
  461. # [23:00] <Philip> (I found several rendering glitches in Firefox, and one security flaw that let me read 28KB of random heap memory on Linux...)
  462. # [23:00] <Zeros> Nice
  463. # [23:00] <Zeros> There's a rendering issue with that JS UI library (the one that named like quxdoo or something?) in Safari too
  464. # [23:01] <Zeros> Can't say I have a huge desire to reduce their code though to figure out what's going on
  465. # [23:07] <Zeros> Browsers should really implement a wildcard character for the search feature.
  466. # [23:35] * Joins: hober (ted@69.45.6.105)
  467. # [23:38] * Joins: asbjornu (asbjorn@84.48.116.134)
  468. # [23:45] <Philip> Zeros: How about regular expressions?
  469. # [23:45] <Philip> Try javascript:void(document.body.innerHTML=document.body.innerHTML.replace(/(pat.*ern)/g, '<blink>$1</blink>'))
  470. # [23:46] <Zeros> You'd get attributes and parts of tags too
  471. # [23:46] <Zeros> the regexp would need to be pretty complex to be useful
  472. # [23:46] <Philip> Hmm, how about implementing the HTML5 parsing algorithm in regexps...
  473. # [23:46] <Zeros> ouch
  474. # [23:47] <Zeros> Philip, The only reason I thought of it was because I have a co-worker with some special letters in his name, and I couldn't remember how to type the g or u with accent marks so I couldn't search for it in the document
  475. # [23:47] <anne> DOM2Range might be usable
  476. # [23:47] <Zeros> being able to throw a * in the search box of the browser to get anything would be nice
  477. # [23:50] <mjs> I am so curious to see Chris Wilson's promised essay now
  478. # [23:51] <Hixie> yes
  479. # [23:51] * anne too
  480. # [23:52] <hober> mjs: yeah
  481. # [23:52] * h3h four
  482. # [23:52] <h3h> or five if I could count
  483. # [23:53] <mjs> so far, I think he's actually increased opposition to versioning
  484. # [23:53] <mjs> with his choice of arguments in favor
  485. # [23:53] <Dashiva> He hasn't been very clear on what he really wants, so I think many are responding to the worst case scenario
  486. # [23:53] <h3h> I don't really even see his arguments
  487. # [23:54] <h3h> it just seems to me that he wants to say "there's police tape around IE and we're not going to touch it."
  488. # [23:54] <Dashiva> I think it boils down to "People don't just make pages to a standard, they make pages to a standard and specific UAs with specific quirks"
  489. # [23:54] <Hixie> i've been talking with microsoft people about this for some time, and as far as i can tell, the worst case scenario is exactly what they want.
  490. # [23:56] <h3h> why? I'm assuming there has to be some overarching logical reason for it, even if it is corporate and conservative...
  491. # [23:57] <mjs> my impression is that they feel burned by the IE7 experience
  492. # [23:57] <hober> mjs: so don't we all! :/
  493. # [23:58] <mjs> I don't think it's meant to be anti-competitive, although it may seem that way in effect
  494. # [23:58] <h3h> somehow I can't believe that they're listening to the proposed solution
  495. # [23:58] <h3h> Chris seems to be saying "we can't change how IE does things"
  496. # [23:58] <h3h> when that's not the proposed solution
  497. # [23:58] <Philip> Perhaps it's partly because they have to worry about lots of IE-only intranet sites, whereas other browsers only have to worry about the public web (which is already in various states of brokenness across different browsers, and is easier to survey)?
  498. # [23:59] <Hixie> other browsers have their own problems, believe me
  499. # [23:59] <Zeros> h3h, Sure it is. Right now <!DOCTYPE HTML> causes standards mode in IE. He wants way to cause "really standards mode".
  500. # [23:59] <Hixie> e.g. safari has all kinds of legacy problems with dashboard widgets.
  501. # Session Close: Tue Apr 10 00:00:00 2007

The end :)