/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-04-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Apr 17 00:00:01 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  5. # [00:11] * dbaron RRSAgent, pointer?
  6. # [00:11] * RRSAgent See http://www.w3.org/2007/04/16-html-wg-irc#T22-03-43
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  9. # [00:33] <zcorpan_> "The most common problem is a white gap around your page if you have a background on the body, no background on the html element, and any kind of spacing between the elements, such as a margin, padding, or a body height under 100% (browsers typically have some combination of these by default)." -- http://www.thewebcreator.net/2007/04/16/why-you-should-be-using-html-401-instead-of-xhtml/
  10. # [00:33] <zcorpan_> hear hear.
  11. # [00:33] <zcorpan_> (that article does have some things that are incorrect, which i intend to point out)
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  15. # [00:49] <zcorpan_> hm. pointing out all the errors would result in a long comment
  16. # [00:50] <zcorpan_> i guess i'd only point out the major ones and mumble about the rest
  17. # [00:50] <zcorpan_> i'd also like opera to support 'resize:both' for textareas. :)
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  22. # [01:15] <Hixie> it's very hard to have rational discussions with people who use things like "it's about empowering people" or "it's like a community" as arguments
  23. # [01:16] <mjs> who used that argument?
  24. # [01:16] <Hixie> murray to you just now and karl to me last night
  25. # [01:16] <Hixie> respectively
  26. # [01:16] <mjs> oh, Murray
  27. # [01:17] <mjs> the only actual arguments he has made on the list amount to "I disagree" and "I've been doing this for 30 years!"
  28. # [01:17] <Hixie> yeah
  29. # [01:18] <Hixie> i'm not ignoring him, but i am ignoring e-mails empty of actual substance (e.g. only +1, or "I disagree", or "Flowers!")
  30. # [01:18] <Hixie> but it amounts to the same thing
  31. # [01:19] <karl> Hixie: rational discussions are driven by openess, not by closed assumptions. The use of "Stupid", for example, will never lead you to a good discussion.
  32. # [01:19] * Hixie points to the whatwg community as a data point supporting the assertion that he already is aware of the benefits of openness
  33. # [01:20] <karl> Hixie: I disagree with this pointing for many reasons. But I'm not sure it is worthwhile to debate because I will have to use the word community and discussions
  34. # [01:22] <hober> karl: do you have a specific example in mind?
  35. # [01:24] <karl> I respect a lot "open" communities. Though we would have to define to what open means. Let's say the *current* working/participation mode of whatwg is open like the one of the html wg.
  36. # [01:24] <karl> it means
  37. # [01:25] <karl> we only have done 30% of the work in the openess, all the rest is done by sharing work, inviting people to talk, not being dismissive, harsh, brutal, respect cultural differences and opinions.
  38. # [01:25] <karl> and that is the hardest part in debates
  39. # [01:26] <karl> putting aside a bit your own ideas to be able to listen others
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  41. # [01:26] <karl> For example, a very good answer to my mail about image drag and drop, was the one of maciej
  42. # [01:26] <karl> it is sensitive, considering, etc.
  43. # [01:27] <karl> It is what I call an intelligent answer. I may agree or disagree, it's not that much important, but it helps to build the thought process.
  44. # [01:28] <mjs> I try to be polite when replying to people
  45. # [01:28] <mjs> but it is much more difficult to reply sensibly to a message that gives no supporting arguments, or only uses vague generalities
  46. # [01:29] <mjs> karl: your messages about images in email, on the other hand, was very specific and you explained your reasoning
  47. # [01:29] <mjs> so I think that is an example of a good message
  48. # [01:29] <mjs> one challenging thing about technical communities is that you both want to base things on rational arguments, and be generally nice to people, and sometimes the two are at odds
  49. # [01:30] <mjs> I think Murray has, per his own claims, more than enough experience in the field to give clear supporting arguments
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  51. # [01:33] <karl> yes, the problems in communities is how to get the voice of people who disagree or let say have a different opinion but are too shy, because of the general tone of the people.
  52. # [01:33] <karl> I have received already a few messages in this sense, and it's always for me heart-shattering
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  54. # [01:36] <xover> «You need two things on Usenet — a civil tongue and a thick skin.» - Steve Dorner
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  56. # [01:41] <hober> I think I may have missed the email with "Stupid" in it...
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  86. # [05:32] <sbuluf> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/04/16-minutes.html <---TAG minutes re versioning, etc, for those interested
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  91. # [06:00] * anne wonders if IBM helds a patent on http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/2007/04/16/Form-Follows-Function#c1176772496
  92. # [06:00] * anne chuckles
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  95. # [06:35] <Hixie> well now that raises an interesting point
  96. # [06:35] <Hixie> what if someone patented versioning?
  97. # [06:37] <sbuluf> i'm astounded nobody patented the number "3" yet (yes, the very number)
  98. # [06:38] <Hixie> the number isn't a process
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  100. # [06:45] <heycam> perhaps the process by which you get to the number, via peano arithmetic
  101. # [06:49] <anne> 4-1
  102. # [06:51] * anne wonders what peano arithmetic might be
  103. # [06:51] <Lachy> but, AFAIK, you can't patent mathematical equations
  104. # [06:52] <anne> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peano_axioms
  105. # [06:52] <anne> "S(S(1))"
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  111. # [07:07] <anne> Can someone tell Mike Schinkel how Thunderbird works?
  112. # [07:08] <anne> If I remember correctly it certainly supports text plain editing of e-mails.
  113. # [07:08] <anne> FYI: http://www.w3.org/mid/op.tqwwnwan64w2qv@id-c0020 (presentation on HTML5 I gave today at QUT)
  114. # [07:14] <MikeSmith> anne - was the presentation well-received? how many people there?
  115. # [07:14] <anne> about 50 or so, I believe they liked it
  116. # [07:15] <MikeSmith> did you get some good questions?
  117. # [07:15] <anne> some people wondered if providing specific elements was going to scale
  118. # [07:15] <anne> like with <progress> and <meter>
  119. # [07:16] <MikeSmith> so what was your response to that?
  120. # [07:16] <anne> my response was that those are pretty fundamental features for most operating systems and applications
  121. # [07:17] <anne> and that we're only adding features with very good use cases
  122. # [07:18] <anne> and also that if they had a better way of doing it they should certainly join!
  123. # [07:18] <MikeSmith> heh
  124. # [07:19] <MikeSmith> anyway, perhaps a good reason why it might help to have the use cases behind those elements (and other parts of the spec) better documented
  125. # [07:19] <anne> also how it relates to Web 2.0 and Ajax
  126. # [07:20] <anne> to which I replies that we're basically trying to improve upon that movement
  127. # [07:20] <anne> s/replies/replied/
  128. # [07:20] <anne> "evolving the web"
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  130. # [07:30] <MikeSmith> I'm thinking that for presentations like this, it'd also be useful to have a record of the Q&A. Could use RRSagent for that, use scribe formatter thingy to generate HTML-formatted record of it as we do for WG meetings.
  131. # [07:31] <MikeSmith> then post URI to www-archive
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  133. # [07:32] <anne> yeah, maybe
  134. # [07:32] * mjs yawns
  135. # [07:32] <anne> no RRSAgent where I gave it though
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  137. # [07:36] * MikeSmith hands mjs a hot cup of black coffee
  138. # [07:37] <mjs> MikeSmith: probably not a good idea this late at night
  139. # [07:39] <sbuluf> i wish i understood better this "pixel perfect" thread/bussiness. is that what would be needed to be able to print html decentrly? /to be more specific, what would be needed to finally get rid of pdf once and for all)
  140. # [07:39] <sbuluf> and if this is so...what's needed in thml itself? isn't it a css matter?
  141. # [07:42] <anne> It's not for <canvas>
  142. # [07:42] <anne> It's for the other stuff, although HTML elements might have some default CSS applied to it
  143. # [07:43] <anne> Have some default CSS applied to it for certain media
  144. # [07:43] <mjs> default rendering should be specified to some extent for interop
  145. # [07:44] <mjs> it's hard to walk the line between over- and under-specifying there
  146. # [07:44] <anne> Great extent probably
  147. # [07:44] <anne> It's amazing what people rely on
  148. # [07:44] <mjs> well, like I said, I don't think you want to standardize things like how to rasterize glyphs, what fonts must be available, whether to use bilinear or bicubic scaling for scaled images, etc
  149. # [07:45] <mjs> I also don't want to rule out the various hacks that mobile browsers do to fit text content to a small screen
  150. # [07:50] <sbuluf> what would take to completely get rid of pdf? to end up with just one content authoring language, html?
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  152. # [07:52] <MikeSmith> I think dhyatt's description of <canvas> as "just a dynamic image" is apt.
  153. # [07:53] <anne> I used that one
  154. # [07:53] <anne> in my pres
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  156. # [08:03] <MikeSmith> anne - please remind me: Was there ever discussion about adding an unnumbered <h> element to the Web Apps 1.0 spec? (instead of using h1-h6)
  157. # [08:05] <anne> yes
  158. # [08:05] <anne> the reason it's not there is for backcompat
  159. # [08:06] <MikeSmith> I see
  160. # [08:07] <Hixie> it is there
  161. # [08:07] <Hixie> it's just called <h1>
  162. # [08:07] <anne> fair enough
  163. # [08:15] <MikeSmith> Hixie - regarding the default rendering rules (as mentioned in 1.1 Scope), is the intention for that to be a comprehensive set of rules or just for new elements?
  164. # [08:16] <Hixie> the former
  165. # [08:18] <MikeSmith> What are intended processing expectations for h1 as a child of <section>? The UA renders it in an appropriate font size based on the level of section nesting?
  166. # [08:19] <Hixie> that's one possibility
  167. # [08:19] <Hixie> we haven't looked at how feasible it is to do that given the backwards compatibility constraints yet
  168. # [08:20] <MikeSmith> OK
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  177. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> Isn't a spec for accesskey necessary for backwards compatibility?
  178. # [09:43] <Hixie> yeah
  179. # [09:43] <Hixie> we need to work out what to do with that
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  181. # [09:44] <anne> what exactly isn't workable about our impl Hixie?
  182. # [09:45] <Hixie> you mean apart from it being a usability nightmare?
  183. # [09:45] <anne> no, I'd like to hear more about that one too :)
  184. # [09:46] <Hixie> go to a bugzilla page
  185. # [09:47] <Hixie> now, without being psychic, how would you use the access keys?
  186. # [09:47] <anne> fair enough, what about the other?
  187. # [09:52] <Hixie> the usability is the main problem
  188. # [09:52] <anne> fair enough :)
  189. # [09:53] <Hixie> the second one is this: go to the bugzilla page in opera mobile
  190. # [09:53] <Hixie> and again, same question: how would you use the access keys?
  191. # [09:55] <anne> if we actually implemented them I suppose you could scroll through them and select one
  192. # [09:55] <anne> perhaps with hotkeys for the first nine
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  200. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> the main real-world practical use of accesskey I have seen is in pages the limit themselves to using just 1-9 numbered links in a page, with the * and # keys mapping to next/previous page
  201. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> that is common practice for contents of mobile sites in Japan
  202. # [10:02] <Hixie> anne: you can do that without any actual accesskey attributes.
  203. # [10:03] <anne> the accesskey attributes would indicate which links are important
  204. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> (and yeah, I recognize it's not our objective to specify markup for mobile-specific content)
  205. # [10:03] <Hixie> MikeSmith: bugzilla is another example of use of accesskeys, and it doesn't limit itself to those
  206. # [10:03] <Hixie> anne: sure, like i said, there is a problem to be solved -- the question is how to solve it. Currently the accesskey attribute as specified and implemented is woefully inadequate.
  207. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> Hixie - I recognize that, but I am not sure I would classify that a practical, widely used use case for it
  208. # [10:04] <anne> Hixie, yeah ok, I'm not really disagreeing with that :)
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  210. # [10:04] <anne> MikeSmith, heh, bugzilla _is_ widely used
  211. # [10:04] <Hixie> MikeSmith: deciding what use cases are indeed practical and/or widely used is an important aspect of deciding how to solve the problem, indeed
  212. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> yes, but how many users care about the access keys in bugzilla, and rely on them
  213. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> (was responding to anne)
  214. # [10:06] <anne> fair enough
  215. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> main concern I have with this is that accesskey support will be needed if we want to move mobile developers away from WAP/walled-garden development to real HTML development
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  217. # [10:06] <anne> onkeypress=
  218. # [10:07] <Hixie> pages shouldn't be designed specifically for mobiles or specifically for desktops
  219. # [10:07] <Hixie> we need to find solutions that work for all media, all devices
  220. # [10:07] <Hixie> or at least, all media and devices for which they are relevant
  221. # [10:07] <Hixie> obviously accesskey isn't relevant for a non-interactive presentation
  222. # [10:08] <anne> ah, relevant was the word I was looking for during my presentation :)
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  224. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> well, it's not that I like accesskey. I personally think it was a mistake for it ever to be spec'ed to begin with. I think a much better way to deal with the use case would be for UAs to generate access-key mappings dynamically, for all links in the current viewport (not for content providers/authors to need to specify them in the markup).
  225. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> Konqueror does that, sorta
  226. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> it dynamically generates the key mappings, but only per-document
  227. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> not limited to current viewport
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  229. # [10:12] <Hixie> discoverability is the problem with that kind of design
  230. # [10:12] <Hixie> (as it is with opera's)
  231. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> true
  232. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> but one nice thing about Konqueror's implementation is that it does have some degree of accidental discoverability
  233. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> in that it uses the Ctrl key as the actuator, and pops up tool-tip text for each access key when you hit the Ctrl key alone (without any other key)
  234. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> which is a fairly common thing to do (and which is how I discovered it myself to begin with)
  235. # [10:15] <Hixie> that has promise, could do with some usability studies to find out how well it works
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  237. # [10:19] <MikeSmith> I guess I can ping the kde-devel list or some other and see if they have any data at all about it for their implementation
  238. # [10:20] <citoyen> fwiw, Opera does show a list of the available accesskeys if you press the keys to activate accesskey mode (shift-esc by default)
  239. # [10:21] <citoyen> You'd still have to actually go look for them, but at least if you do, you have a chance of knowing what they are
  240. # [10:22] <Hixie> on bugzilla they all come up "(null)"
  241. # [10:22] <Hixie> and i can never remember shift-esc
  242. # [10:22] <Hixie> and i used to work for opera!
  243. # [10:22] <Hixie> so heaven help the real users
  244. # [10:23] <citoyen> Yeah, I know :)
  245. # [10:24] <citoyen> To this day I haven't seen any good suggestion of how to do accesskeys
  246. # [10:24] * MikeSmith adds himself to the list of people who worked for Opera and didn't remember until now that shift-esc did that
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  248. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> I notice the Web Apps 1.0 doesn't flag anything as deprecated. it seems like @accesskey, if/when (re)spec'ed, perhaps should be marked as deprecated (with the rationale for deprecating it given)
  249. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> or if not explcitly marked as deprecated at least accompanied by "use of this attribute is discouraged"
  250. # [11:10] <Hixie> if it's discouraged, it should be non-conforming
  251. # [11:11] <Hixie> the "deprecated" state is just a sign of weakmindedness on the part of the wg, imho
  252. # [11:20] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Where dwelt Ymir, or wherein did he find sustenance?)
  253. # [11:20] <mjs> most specs are unwilling to specify behavior for non-conforming content
  254. # [11:21] <mjs> thus the deprecated state
  255. # [11:29] <Hixie> indeed
  256. # [11:29] <Hixie> this is not a problem that we have.
  257. # [11:29] <Hixie> :-)
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  261. # [12:18] <nickshanks> deprecated content is still conforming though, it's just a warning that it will become non-conforming in future and it's use should be phased out
  262. # [12:22] <Hixie> if its use should be phased out, why wait to phase it out?
  263. # [12:34] <nickshanks> i wasn't disagreeing
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  280. # [15:54] <beowulf> there are too many cats and kittens in html5
  281. # [16:05] * Quits: Shunsuke (kuruma@219.110.80.235) (Ping timeout)
  282. # [16:15] <Dashiva> beowulf: Is that even possible?
  283. # [16:17] <beowulf> it most certainly is and i'm going to start a huge thread on the merits of dogs over cats on the list
  284. # [16:17] <Dashiva> That's signing your own death warrant
  285. # [16:18] <Mallory> If you remove H, M & L and add C, A and S, HTML becomes CATS.
  286. # [16:19] <edas> ;)
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  289. # [16:31] <Dashiva> How To Meow Loudly
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  341. # [23:37] <Voluminous> Hello all.
  342. # [23:37] <zcorpan_> Voluminous: heya
  343. # [23:38] <Voluminous> I need an assistant to wade through all the e-mails for these past few days, phew! :-)
  344. # [23:38] <zcorpan_> lol
  345. # [23:40] <Voluminous> Any interesting advancements recently?
  346. # [23:40] <Voluminous> Recently being the past 2 days, things go by so fast here. :-)
  347. # [23:43] <zcorpan_> versioning discussions mostly
  348. # [23:45] * Voluminous nods.
  349. # [23:45] <Voluminous> Is Chris remaining mum on Lachlan's e-mail about the versioning compromize?
  350. # [23:47] <Dashiva> out of office still, perhaps
  351. # [23:47] <mjs> he's responded to other emails
  352. # [23:48] * karl had no time yet to read public-html. :(
  353. # [23:48] <Voluminous> Yeah I've noticed that. I'm wondering if he's just drafting up a lengthier response.
  354. # [23:48] <Voluminous> Though is last lengthy post was well... very lengthy indeed. :-)
  355. # [23:48] * karl has far too many things on his plate this week.
  356. # [23:49] <Dashiva> get a second plate
  357. # [23:49] <Voluminous> I'm sorry to hear that karl, will your inbox survive the onslaught until you check it again?
  358. # [23:49] <Zeros> I had that problem last week, I got through a lot of it over the weekend
  359. # [23:49] <Zeros> still 160 left
  360. # [23:52] <Voluminous> Ugg.
  361. # [23:52] <Voluminous> :-)
  362. # [23:52] * karl is using the week-end to not think at all about W3C. Necessary to survive ;)
  363. # [23:52] <Zeros> When Law & Order is a repeat you can just read public-html for amusement ;)
  364. # [23:53] <Zeros> s/repeat/one you've seen previously/
  365. # [23:53] <karl> hehe. I do not have a TV :p
  366. # [23:53] * Voluminous thinks karl is a genius for that very statement.
  367. # [23:54] <Voluminous> As soon as I get my Joost invite I'm ditching my cable TV provider.
  368. # [23:55] <Zeros> I should really use my joost account
  369. # [23:55] <Zeros> I got an invite by someone on the project, but its not OS X compatible so I've yet to play too much with it
  370. # [23:57] <gavin> it's not?
  371. # [23:57] <Voluminous> Really? The client isn't? I could have sworn it was.
  372. # [23:57] * gavin has been using the Mac version for a while now :)
  373. # [23:57] <Voluminous> My co-worker runs it on his mac.
  374. # [23:57] * Voluminous nudges gavin to throw him an invite. ;-)
  375. # [23:57] <gavin> sure
  376. # [23:57] <Zeros> gavin, oh, then they added it from when I was invited :/
  377. # [23:57] <gavin> /msg me and email if you want
  378. # [23:58] <gavin> I think I have an invite left
  379. # [23:58] <Zeros> I'll have to download the client :)
  380. # [23:59] <Dashiva> The indent discussion keeps going and going and going
  381. # [23:59] <Dashiva> The emails are all so big, yet it doesn't feel like they say anything
  382. # [23:59] * zcorpan_ isn't reading the indent thread
  383. # Session Close: Wed Apr 18 00:00:00 2007

The end :)