/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-04-26 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Apr 26 00:00:00 2007
# Session Ident: #html-wg
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# [00:10] * Topic is 'W3C HTML WG http://www.w3.org/html/wg/ - http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ (logged) - http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ProposedDesignPrinciples'
# [00:10] * Set by anne on Tue Mar 27 12:28:46
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# [00:52] <claudio> is http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-controls/current-work/ the *latest* draft?
# [00:53] <claudio> or there's some other "working-on-only" version?
# [00:54] <mjs> claudio: that's the latest
# [00:54] <claudio> thanks
# [00:55] <Hixie> web-controls is just a dumping group for old ideas
# [00:55] <Hixie> it's not in active development
# [00:55] <claudio> I see
# [00:56] <claudio> sometimes "data grid" springs off some discussions, but it's not even mentioned there
# [00:57] <Hixie> data grid is in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-datalist
# [00:57] <claudio> got it, thanks
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# [01:09] <Lachy> awesome! I got an off-list reply from Chris Wilson indicating that he likes the new proposal I sent him to resolve the opt-in issue :-)
# [01:09] <Dashiva> Eerie
# [01:10] <Lachy> he's only sent a quick response saying yes, but said he will respond more in depth later
# [01:10] * mjs would love to hear the proposal
# [01:10] * Lachy is uploading it now...
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# [01:13] <Lachy> http://lachy.id.au/temp/compromise.txt
# [01:14] <Hixie> can you summarise what changes it would require to the currect spec?
# [01:14] <Lachy> none
# [01:14] <Hixie> sounds good to me! ship it!
# [01:15] <Hixie> (how does that work with IE9?)
# [01:15] <Lachy> the basic idea is to use the opt-ins for HTML4/XHTML1 DOCTYPEs, which are sitll and will continue to be widely used for years
# [01:15] <Lachy> IE can use the time it will take to transition from HTML4 to 5 to improve compliance
# [01:16] <Hixie> but how does that handle the next time they decide they need to make freezes? or are we assuming microsoft somehow magically become really good at following standards
# [01:16] <Lachy> so by the time HTML5 begins to be widely used (beyond us geeks who use it already), IE should be interop enough to not need opt-ins anymore
# [01:17] <Lachy> then optional IE-specific opt-outs are provided as a backup for HTML5 sites, in case something breaks.
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# [01:18] <Lachy> the freezes would (ideally, in this situation at least) only apply to HTML4 DOCTYPEs, HTML5 would trigger the latest standards by default, for all time (I hope)
# [01:19] <Hixie> well if you can convince him of that, i'm all for it
# [01:19] <Lachy> cool
# [01:19] <Hixie> hopefully no-one will point out the obvious way this is flawed :-)
# [01:20] <Lachy> do you mean that fact that there is no guarantee that IE won't add opt-ins to HTML5 at some point in the future anyway?
# [01:21] <Hixie> sort of. i mean the fact that is relies on microsoft somehow magically becoming really good at following standards before HTML5 becomes widely used.
# [01:21] <Hixie> (and i'm serious when i say i hope no-one points this out, because i really do like the idea of convincing them not to ask for changes to the spec)
# [01:22] <Lachy> There are only a few major bugs they'd need to fix to make it possible to write hack-free CSS. It's almost possible with IE7.
# [01:23] <Lachy> their DOM bugs are a bigger issue, though
# [01:23] <Hixie> acid2 and acid3 seem to disagree with you on the css thing
# [01:23] <Hixie> acid3 in particular i didn't do anything to make it break in ie
# [01:24] <Hixie> (or at least, not enough to make it break as much as it does)
# [01:24] <Lachy> note that I said "to write hack-free CSS", not support everything they should
# [01:24] <Dashiva> Is the reference rendering updated, Hixie?
# [01:24] <Hixie> yes
# [01:24] <Hixie> Lachy: i don't really understand the difference
# [01:26] <Lachy> A lot of the stuff used in acid2 and acid3 aren't absolutely essential to write a good website these days. They'd be nice if we (web developers) could use them, but we can't and we're doing quite well without them
# [01:26] <Hixie> css isn't "absolutely essential to write a good website these days"
# [01:26] <mjs> I really need to fix that parsing bug that is killing acid3 in webkit
# [01:27] <Dashiva> I don't even know where to start debugging in Opera
# [01:27] <Hixie> opera's main problem is remarkably similar to webkit's
# [01:27] <Hixie> it's a <head> parsing issue
# [01:27] <Dashiva> The no implicit head in DOM one?
# [01:27] <mjs> well, there's the actual failing test cases too, but yeah
# [01:28] <Hixie> the test cases are much easier to debug
# [01:28] <Hixie> since i'm trying to keep them relatively self-contained
# [01:28] <Lachy> for example, only major hack I used to work around these days is zoom: 1; to trigger hasLayout where necessary, and * html to work around a few IE6 bugs. Once IE7 fixes their hasLayout bugs, it would be possible to write hack-free CSS that works in all popular UAs
# [01:28] <Dashiva> Took me a while to realize the :first-child opera was picking up was title, not head
# [01:29] <Hixie> Lachy: i'd be impressed if they fixed their hasLayout bugs
# [01:29] <Hixie> that would be truly a step in the right direction
# [01:29] <Lachy> I'm hoping they do for the next release
# [01:29] <Hixie> i'm hoping for a lot of things :-)
# [01:29] * Hixie is getting cynical in his old age
# [01:29] <Lachy> I really wish they would remove hasLayout all together, it seems useless
# [01:29] <Hixie> it's not like they added it for fun
# [01:30] <Hixie> it's an integral part of their rendering engine architecture
# [01:30] <Hixie> so it's "use" is in rendering anything at all, i imagine
# [01:30] <Lachy> I realise that, but it seems like a broken concept
# [01:30] <mjs> their layout model just doesn't match CSS layout very well
# [01:30] <Hixie> what mjs said
# [01:30] * Lachy has to go
# [01:30] <Hixie> later
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# [05:39] <Lachy> Hixie, I just discovered that you made _blank a conforming value for taget! Why?
# [05:39] <Lachy> btw, you should also document _new
# [05:40] <Lachy> I susepct _new is actually more widely used than _blank as well
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# [08:06] <Hixie> Lachy: is _new actually a magic value, or does it "just work" the way "foo" does?
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# [08:07] <mjs> in what browser?
# [08:09] <Hixie> 05:36 < Lachy>|btw, you should also document _new
# [08:09] <Hixie> 05:36 < Lachy>|I susepct _new is actually more widely used than _blank as well
# [08:09] <Lachy> I'm pretty sure it's a magic value
# [08:09] <Hixie> Lachy: regarding your other question, i didn't really think about what should be conforming, but now that i do, i could see legitimate use cases for _blank
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# [08:09] <Hixie> but i need to go home now
# [08:09] <Hixie> feel free to mention it on the list
# [08:09] <Lachy> ok, I'll do some tests and mail the results
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# [08:10] <mjs> _new is not magic in Safari but it appears to be in Firefox
# [08:11] <Hixie> really? i though i based the spec on the values i got out of firefox's code :-)
# [08:11] <mjs> (same behavior as _blank afaik)
# [08:11] <mjs> (afaict I mean)
# [08:11] * Lachy remembers he can't test target="" in a browser that he has it disabled ;-/
# [08:11] <mjs> (for window.open at least)
# [08:12] <Hixie> back tomorrow, bed time now
# [08:12] <Hixie> nn
# [08:12] <Lachy> doesn't appear to be magic in IE7
# [08:16] <Lachy> not magic in IE6 either.
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# [08:42] <mjs> do did everyone note that TimBL wants to join our telecon?
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# [08:48] <sbuluf> telecon is via irc? now?
# [08:48] <sbuluf> timbl and tag have been discussing xml versioning in last meeting, if it helps
# [08:53] <mjs> no, tomorrow
# [08:53] <karl> no today ;) (in Japan)
# [08:54] <sbuluf> thanks
# [08:55] <anne5> in Europe it's today as well iirc
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# [08:57] <sbuluf> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/04/23-minutes.html <--if anyone wishes to see
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# [09:29] * anne5 is not sure what to make of their discussion
# [09:30] <sbuluf> neither me, if it helps
# [09:31] <sbuluf> futhermore, to be honest, i thought versioning in xml was solved long ago. or at least, it should, since it makes sense to consider the problem even before sitting to write down the first xml draft
# [09:31] <anne5> i think they mean versioning of xml languages
# [09:32] <anne5> not the xml syntax
# [09:32] <sbuluf> right.
# [09:32] <anne5> which is the perfect example of a bad versioning story...
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# [09:38] <krijnh> DanC: "(in what timezone?)" on http://www.w3.org/html/wg/il16 => CET
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# [14:43] <mraymond> Wow people are here early!
# [14:43] <anne5> you must think the world is flat?
# [14:43] <Lachy> mraymond, people hang out here all the time
# [14:43] <Lachy> some people are here 24/7
# [14:43] <krijnh> Yeah, silly them
# [14:43] <Lachy> some people don't have a life beyond IRC
# [14:44] <krijnh> Yeah, silly you
# [14:44] <krijnh> ;)
# [14:44] <wilhelm> Or just use screen+irssi..(c;
# [14:45] <mraymond> Is there a way to listen to the teleconference via Internet so you don't have to be on the phone long distance?
# [14:46] <anne5> you could try getting skype
# [14:46] <anne5> the minutes of the meeting will be done here on IRC so you can "participate" without dialing in
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# [14:47] <Lachy> unfortunately, IRC minutes aren't easy to follow
# [14:48] <anne5> depends on the minute taker
# [14:48] <mraymond> Is there an expected length of time for the meeting?
# [14:48] <anne5> 90min prolly
# [14:49] <Lachy> woah!
# [14:49] <mraymond> Sounds about right.
# [14:49] * Lachy already has to stay up till 03:00 just for the beginning
# [14:49] <mraymond> Australia?
# [14:49] <Lachy> yes
# [14:49] <anne5> Lachy, that's the typical length of a telcon... although groups can decide to have shorter or longer telcons
# [14:50] <Lachy> I like the 16 min telcon for WAF 2 weeks ago
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# [14:50] <anne5> yes, those are good
# [14:51] <Lachy> I wonder how many people are actually going to call
# [14:51] <anne5> 20-40
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# [14:51] <anne5> per the response
# [14:51] <anne5> s
# [14:51] <Lachy> hmm. That might not be too bad, though it's a lot
# [14:52] <mraymond> Question to all: Who would be your nightmare editor?
# [14:52] <Lachy> anyone from the XHTML2/XForms WGs
# [14:53] <anne5> someone who doesn't do much
# [14:53] <anne5> doesn't listen to feedback from the WG, other people, etc.
# [14:54] <Lachy> mraymond, why?
# [14:55] <anne5> mraymond is matthew raymond?
# [14:55] <mraymond> Just wondering if people were thinking the same thing as me, which is apparently so.
# [14:55] <mraymond> Yeah, I'm Matthew Raymond.
# [14:55] <anne5> welcome
# [14:55] <anne5> /whois didn't tell
# [14:55] <mraymond> I just installed ChatZilla.
# [14:55] <mraymond> I'm at work.
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# [14:56] <anne5> fair enough
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# [15:04] <anne5> MattRaymond, you might also want to join #whatwg on irc.freenode.net
# [15:05] <MattRaymond> Not a huge fan of multiuser chat. I'm a slow reader.
# [15:05] <MattRaymond> And a barely adequate typist.
# [15:07] <MattRaymond> Although compared to other chats I've been in, this is positively glacial. Don't expect it to be like that when the meeting starts, though.
# [15:07] <Lachy> MattRaymond, I'm a slow reader too, but it's not that hard to keep up with multiple channels
# [15:07] <Dashiva> Most people only talk in one of the channels at a time too
# [15:07] <Lachy> except for crazy people like anne5 who can maintain conversations in 3 channles at once :-)
# [15:08] * MattRaymond is getting EVE Online flashbacks...
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# [15:19] <MattRaymond> Thought: Use HTML5 as basis for the next spec, but use HTML 4.01 as basis for Authors' Guide?
# [15:20] <anne5> authors' guide?
# [15:20] <Philip`> The structure/style of HTML 4.01, or the actual text?
# [15:21] * Lachy doesn't recommend HTML4.01 as the basis for anything
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# [16:17] <DanC> I just added meta-topics such as handling duplicates to http://esw.w3.org/topic/MailingLists ; all are invited to polish further
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# [16:18] <Lachy> hey DanC
# [16:18] * DanC waves, dividing his attention with a few other tasks...
# [16:18] <Lachy> is the versioning issue on the agenda for the telcon?
# [16:19] <DanC> no. not explicitly, anyway. I don't see a productive way to deal with it by phone
# [16:19] <Lachy> ok
# [16:20] <Lachy> Chris and I have been discussing it off list and seem to be getting somewhere
# [16:20] <DanC> getting somewhere is good. :)
# [16:21] <Lachy> I'm still awaiting his full response, but his quick response today indicates that he likes my latest compromise (though what he wrote was a little ambiguous)
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# [16:22] <DanC> are you guys copying www-archive on your offlist discussion? If not, I can't be completely friendly about it.
# [16:22] <DanC> to some extent, I trust that you understand the risks of offlist discussion, but I feel I should say so in any case.
# [16:24] * Joins: Sander (svl@80.60.87.115)
# [16:29] <Lachy> we're not, but I have a copy of everything if you would like to me send it (if I get his permission to)
# [16:29] <Lachy> I'm planning to summarise the discussion and post the result to public-html anyway
# [16:32] * Quits: Ashe``` (Ashe@213.47.199.86) (Ping timeout)
# [16:33] <Lachy> what are the risks of off-list discussion that you're referring to?
# [16:34] <anne5> you might be getting nowhere
# [16:35] <Lachy> that's possible
# [16:35] <DanC> I'm referring to the risk of "why didn't you include the rest of us" back-lash.
# [16:36] <DanC> and the risk of "why does Chris Wilson answer Lachy's mail but not mine?"
# [16:36] <Lachy> that doesn't bother me
# [16:36] <krijnh> Because Lachy is so friendly to cwilso :)
# [16:36] <Lachy> yep :-)
# [16:38] * Quits: heycam (cam@203.214.60.8) (Ping timeout)
# [16:39] <Lachy> actually, off-list discussion has probably been advantageous in this case cause it prevents productive discussion being flooded with dozens of +1s
# [16:39] <schepers_> +1
# [16:39] <krijnh> ;p
# [16:40] <anne5> Lachy, www-archive doesn't have that effect
# [16:41] * anne5 is a big fan of www-archive
# [16:41] <MattRaymond> The whole +1 situation had gotten out of hand.
# [16:42] * Quits: zdenko (zdenko@193.77.152.244) (Quit: zdenko)
# [16:42] * Joins: Ashe (Ashe@213.47.199.86)
# [16:42] <Bob_le_Pointu> Sorry for my +1, it was just to test the list.
# [16:44] <Lachy> Bob_le_Pointu, weren't the hundreds of daily emails sufficient evidence that the list was working?
# [16:44] <anne5> doesn't tell you if posting does
# [16:44] <Bob_le_Pointu> Until karl and I tested with that, my mails we'rent posted.
# [16:44] <anne5> we're at a nice 1500 for this month btw
# [16:44] <Lachy> you don't need to know that till you have something important to say, and you find out pretty quickly then if it doesn't
# [16:46] <Bob_le_Pointu> I disagree, I had something to say, but I could'nt send. Waiting for the problem was solved, the topic was nearly closed and my message became useles.
# [16:46] <Bob_le_Pointu> Now, it's fixed at last.
# [16:47] * Sander kinda agrees with that - it's be really nice if you could pre-emptively agree to the archiving policy thing so your first message to a list doesn't come in days later
# [16:48] * DanC cites his message discouraging plain +1 messages in http://esw.w3.org/topic/MailingLists
# [16:48] <anne5> best way is to e-mail www-archive
# [16:48] <anne5> with something like "test"
# [16:49] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233)
# [16:50] <Bob_le_Pointu> I did anne5, like you suggested me to do, I received an form to fill, and no more.
# [16:51] <anne5> oh right
# [16:51] <anne5> well, that should've worked
# [16:54] * Quits: Shunsuke (kuruma@219.110.80.235) (Client exited)
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# [16:59] * Joins: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.181.16)
# [17:01] * Quits: myakura (myakura@60.239.122.32) (Quit: Leaving...)
# [17:02] * Quits: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.181.16) (Ping timeout)
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# [17:12] * Joins: kazuhito (kazuhito@222.151.150.159)
# [17:19] <gsnedders> DanC: yeah, I'm waiting for top posting to come up
# [17:21] * gavin hopes "top posting" doesn't come up
# [17:21] <gavin> it leads to all sorts of distracting meta discussion every time!
# [17:21] <gsnedders> gavin: well, we seem to discuss everything, so it will
# [17:33] * Joins: h3h (bfults@66.162.32.234)
# [17:35] * Joins: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.181.16)
# [17:39] * Quits: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.181.16) (Quit: oedipus)
# [17:39] * Quits: edas (edaspet@88.191.34.123) (Ping timeout)
# [17:40] * Joins: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.181.16)
# [17:42] * Joins: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145)
# [17:55] * oedipus is now known as Gregory
# [17:58] <hsivonen> I wonder if it matters which telecon number I dial with Skype
# [17:59] * Joins: Alfonso (chatzilla@85.49.226.253)
# [18:00] <zcorpan> it's in 5 minutes isn't it
# [18:00] <Lachy> in 1:03
# [18:00] <krijnh> *exciting*
# [18:00] <hsivonen> was the orientation t-45?
# [18:01] <Gregory> yes, although it can begin now if you have any questions
# [18:02] <Bob_le_Pointu> Ow.
# [18:02] <Bob_le_Pointu> I'll miss that.
# [18:02] <hsivonen> how do people request a timeslot to speak in? and how are permissions to speak given?
# [18:02] <Gregory> on IRC or on the phone?
# [18:02] <Lachy> type /me q+ to add yourself to the queue
# [18:03] <Bob_le_Pointu> Is there a dedicated IRC channel ?
# [18:03] <Lachy> there were links to Zakim instructions in an email from DanC
# [18:03] <Gregory> zakim (phone) options: 61# to mute yourself; 60# to unMute yourself
# [18:03] <Gregory> zakim (phone) part 2: 41# to raise your hand (enter speaking queue); 40# to lower your hand (exit speaking queue)
# [18:04] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
# [18:04] <DanC> Zakim, this is html
# [18:04] <Zakim> DanC, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be html".
# [18:04] <DanC> Zakim, this will be html
# [18:04] <Zakim> ok, DanC; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start now
# [18:04] * Joins: chaals (chaals@213.236.208.22)
# [18:05] * DanC changes topic to 'HTML WG 26 Apr pre-telcon orientation discussion http://www.w3.org/html/wg/il16#orient26 '
# [18:05] <DanC> RRSAgent, pointer?
# [18:05] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/04/26-html-wg-irc#T16-01-54
# [18:05] * DanC changes topic to 'HTML WG 26 Apr pre-telcon orientation discussion http://www.w3.org/html/wg/il16#orient26 log: http://www.w3.org/2007/04/26-html-wg-irc'
# [18:06] <DanC> q+ to note the nice weather in KC
# [18:06] <anne5> chaals, !
# [18:06] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
# [18:06] <DanC> agenda + Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-04-26T17:00:00Z
# [18:06] * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
# [18:06] <DanC> agenda + Design Principles and Requirements
# [18:06] * Zakim notes agendum 2 added
# [18:06] <DanC> agenda + Forms baseline
# [18:06] * Quits: gavin (gavin@63.245.208.169) (Ping timeout)
# [18:06] * Zakim notes agendum 3 added
# [18:06] <DanC> agenda + HTML spec baseline
# [18:06] * Zakim notes agendum 4 added
# [18:06] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
# [18:07] <Zakim> + +1.734.995.aaaa
# [18:07] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-BOS
# [18:07] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
# [18:07] <Zakim> +DanC
# [18:07] <Lachy> what's the phone number?
# [18:07] <DanC> Zakim, phone number?
# [18:07] <Zakim> I am sorry, DanC; I do not know a number for number?
# [18:07] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmiata
# [18:08] <DanC> Zakim, passcode?
# [18:08] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), DanC
# [18:08] <DanC> Zakim, aaaa is Patrick_Ion
# [18:08] <Zakim> +Patrick_Ion; got it
# [18:09] * Joins: PatrickDFIon (c66fbe05@128.30.52.23)
# [18:09] <DanC> Zakim, Patrick_Ion is PatrickDFIon
# [18:09] <Zakim> +PatrickDFIon; got it
# [18:10] * Joins: gavin (gavin@63.245.208.169)
# [18:10] * MikeSmith wonders whether this is orientation pre-call or the actual WG call
# [18:11] <Gregory> GRDDL: http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-grddl-20070302/
# [18:11] <Gregory> MikeSmith - this is the orientation portion of the telecon
# [18:11] <Zakim> +??P17
# [18:11] <Zakim> +??P18
# [18:11] <MikeSmith> Gregory - thxs
# [18:12] <chaals> zakim, who is talking?
# [18:12] <Zakim> chaals, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P17 (40%), ??P18 (84%)
# [18:12] * Zakim hears ??P18's hand up
# [18:12] * Zakim sees DanC, ??P18 on the speaker queue
# [18:12] <DanC> ack danc
# [18:12] <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to note the nice weather in KC
# [18:12] * Zakim sees ??P18 on the speaker queue
# [18:12] <Lachy> Zakim, ??P17 is Lachlan Hunt
# [18:12] <Zakim> I don't understand '??P17 is Lachlan Hunt', Lachy
# [18:12] <Zakim> +??P19
# [18:12] <chaals> zakim, ??P18 is me
# [18:12] <Zakim> +chaals; got it
# [18:12] <Lachy> Zakim, +??P17 is Lachy
# [18:12] <Zakim> sorry, Lachy, I do not recognize a party named '+??P17'
# [18:12] <Lachy> Zakim, ??P17 is Lachy
# [18:12] <Zakim> +Lachy; got it
# [18:13] <krijnh> What a hassle to note the nice weather in KC..
# [18:13] <hsivonen> I just joined
# [18:13] <hsivonen> no caller id :-(
# [18:13] <chaals> zakim, who is talking?
# [18:13] <Zakim> chaals, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: chaals (78%), ??P19 (20%)
# [18:13] <DanC> Zakim, mute chaals temporarily
# [18:13] <Zakim> chaals should now be muted
# [18:13] <Zakim> + +1.949.588.aabb
# [18:14] <Zakim> + +1.908.781.aacc
# [18:14] <Zakim> chaals should now be unmuted again
# [18:14] <anne5> Zakim, who is here?
# [18:14] <Zakim> On the phone I see PatrickDFIon, DanC, Gregory_Rosmiata, Lachy, chaals, ??P19, +1.949.588.aabb, +1.908.781.aacc
# [18:14] * PatrickDFIon is now known as pion
# [18:14] <Zakim> On IRC I see gavin, PatrickDFIon, chaals, Zakim, Alfonso, mjs, Gregory, h3h, kazuhito, Shunsuke, jdandrea, Julian, Ashe, Sander, hasather, gavin_, Deeder, loic, polin8, Lachy,
# [18:14] <Zakim> ... zcorpan, Bob_le_Pointu, MattRaymond, schepers_, karl, ROBOd, tH, MikeSmith, anne5, Dashiva, hsivonen, Preston, jmb, beowulf, krijnh, mw22, martijn, citoyen, Yudai, DanC,
# [18:14] <Zakim> ... gsnedders, Zoffix, xover, Hixie, wilhelm, claudio, jgraham, deltab, Philip`, RRSAgent
# [18:14] <DanC> Zakim, ??P19 in hsivonen
# [18:14] <Zakim> I don't understand '??P19 in hsivonen', DanC
# [18:14] <DanC> Zakim, P19 in hsivonen
# [18:14] <Zakim> I don't understand 'P19 in hsivonen', DanC
# [18:14] <anne5> Zakim, 19 is hsivonen
# [18:14] <Zakim> sorry, anne5, I do not recognize a party named '19'
# [18:14] <DanC> Zakim, ??P19 is hsivonen
# [18:14] <Zakim> +hsivonen; got it
# [18:14] * chaals claims not to be the heavy breather
# [18:14] <chaals> zakim, who is talking?
# [18:14] * anne5 thought it did substring matches
# [18:14] <mjs> good morning
# [18:14] <Zakim> chaals, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: chaals (54%), hsivonen (15%)
# [18:14] <mjs> is this the pre-session?
# [18:14] <Gregory> yes, mjs
# [18:15] * pion is now known as Patrick
# [18:15] <DanC> Zakim, aabb is Preston
# [18:15] <Zakim> +Preston; got it
# [18:15] <anne5> mjs, starts in 50min
# [18:15] <chaals> zakim, mute me
# [18:15] <Zakim> chaals should now be muted
# [18:15] <Zakim> - +1.908.781.aacc
# [18:15] * MikeSmith is dropping off and will attempt to re-join from hotel
# [18:15] * DanC checks http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/Zakim.html
# [18:15] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Get thee behind me, satan.)
# [18:16] <Sander> ooh, steven brust fan!
# [18:16] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@71.198.189.81)
# [18:17] <h3h> no chance for an audio feed of the call? :)
# [18:18] <DanC> h3h, no, not today. you might ask in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-tools/
# [18:18] <DanC> about doing that in the future
# [18:18] <DanC> it's complicated, both technically and socially.
# [18:18] * MattRaymond +q
# [18:18] * Zakim sees ??P18, MattRaymond on the speaker queue
# [18:18] <Zakim> + +1.724.738.aadd
# [18:19] <hsivonen> does the telecon bridge have a vox that mutes the sound when no one is talking or am I losing packets?
# [18:19] <DanC> it auto-mutes, yes
# [18:19] * Lachy These instructions for zakim are long and complicated. To associate my IRC nick with me on the phone, do I jsut type "I am Lachy"?
# [18:19] <DanC> Zakim, aadd is David_D
# [18:19] <Zakim> +David_D; got it
# [18:20] <DanC> yes... rather: Zakim, I am Lachy
# [18:20] <Lachy> Zakim, I am Lachy
# [18:20] <Zakim> ok, Lachy, I now associate you with Lachy
# [18:20] * Joins: johnst (johnst@83.89.44.198)
# [18:20] <chaals> ack ??P18
# [18:20] * Zakim sees MattRaymond on the speaker queue
# [18:20] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
# [18:21] <MattRaymond> What exactly is the speaker queue? I got the start time for the meeting wrong.
# [18:21] <chaals> q?
# [18:21] * Zakim sees MattRaymond on the speaker queue
# [18:21] <DanC> ack MattRaymond
# [18:21] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:21] <chaals> ack me
# [18:21] * Zakim unmutes chaals
# [18:21] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:22] <DanC> Zakim, is MattRaymond here?
# [18:22] <Zakim> DanC, I do not see MattRaymond anywhere
# [18:22] <DanC> hard to explain by IRC, MattRaymond
# [18:22] * chaals notes to Matt (and everyone) that if you type q+ you will be put in the speaker queue
# [18:22] <Gregory> the speaker queue is the list of speakers who wish to speak (41# to raise hand; 40# to put hand down (exit queue)
# [18:22] <chaals> If you type q+ you will be put in the speaker queue
# [18:22] <Lachy> Zakim, mute me
# [18:22] <Zakim> Lachy should now be muted
# [18:22] <MattRaymond> Oh, vocally, then.
# [18:22] <chaals> (this is better than interrupting speakers to say "me too...")
# [18:23] <DanC> the really cool thing is that Zakim will remember what you wanted to say...
# [18:23] <chaals> You can also use "q+ to XYXYXYXYX" and zakim will remember what you wanted to say
# [18:23] <DanC> q+ to say that HTML 12 should have a <smellovision> tag
# [18:23] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
# [18:23] <chaals> q+ to say that maybe queuing up is a good idedea
# [18:23] * Zakim sees DanC, chaals on the speaker queue
# [18:23] <DanC> then, 10 minutes later, when the chair acks me....
# [18:23] <DanC> ack danc
# [18:23] <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to say that HTML 12 should have a <smellovision> tag
# [18:23] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [18:23] <chaals> q-
# [18:23] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:23] <Zakim> + +1.518.664.aaee
# [18:23] <Lachy> +1 to <smellovision>!
# [18:24] <DanC> ack chaals
# [18:24] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:24] <anne5> maybe a <+1> element?
# [18:24] <hsivonen> q+ testing
# [18:24] * Zakim sees testing on the speaker queue
# [18:24] <hsivonen> q-
# [18:24] * Zakim sees testing on the speaker queue
# [18:24] * DanC needs a bite... steps away from keyboard/IRC, taking phone...
# [18:24] <anne5> should be trivial to make the parsing algorithm support that...
# [18:24] * Joins: Neovov (me@84.99.121.185)
# [18:24] <chaals> q+ to say that you can put someone else on the queue
# [18:24] * Zakim sees testing, chaals on the speaker queue
# [18:24] <DanC> anne5, you know where the Zakim source is, yes?
# [18:25] <Neovov> Hi everybody !
# [18:25] <anne5> somewhere on http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/ ?
# [18:25] <chaals> ack me
# [18:25] <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to say that you can put someone else on the queue
# [18:25] * Zakim sees testing on the speaker queue
# [18:25] <anne5> or do you mean something else?
# [18:25] <chaals> q+
# [18:25] * Zakim sees testing, chaals on the speaker queue
# [18:25] <Preston> Who is the guy this the background noise?
# [18:25] * hsivonen q+
# [18:25] * Zakim sees testing, chaals, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [18:25] <anne5> Zakim, who is making noise?
# [18:25] <chaals> q- testing
# [18:25] * Zakim sees chaals, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [18:25] * hsivonen q-
# [18:25] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [18:25] <Zakim> anne5, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: chaals (49%), hsivonen (15%)
# [18:25] <chaals> zakim, mute me
# [18:25] <Zakim> chaals should now be muted
# [18:25] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221)
# [18:26] * Joins: sierk (sbornema@87.162.182.174)
# [18:26] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233) (Ping timeout)
# [18:26] <chaals> zakim, agenda?
# [18:26] <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
# [18:26] <Zakim> 1. Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-04-26T17:00:00Z [from DanC]
# [18:26] <Zakim> 2. Design Principles and Requirements [from DanC]
# [18:26] <Zakim> 3. Forms baseline [from DanC]
# [18:26] <Zakim> 4. HTML spec baseline [from DanC]
# [18:26] <Preston> Yep. Collision detection does not work so well on overloaded channels (as this case).
# [18:26] * chaals eats german version of fantales (no story on the wrapper)
# [18:26] * dbaron RRSAgent, pointer?
# [18:26] * RRSAgent See http://www.w3.org/2007/04/26-html-wg-irc#T16-22-54
# [18:26] <Zakim> + +24053aaff
# [18:26] * anne5 wonders what DanC meant
# [18:26] * Joins: edas (edaspet@88.191.34.123)
# [18:26] * chaals wonders: who?
# [18:27] <chaals> ack me
# [18:27] * Zakim unmutes chaals
# [18:27] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:27] <Lachy> unmute me
# [18:27] * Joins: olli- (olli@80.203.95.229)
# [18:28] <DanC> Zakim, unmute me
# [18:28] <Zakim> DanC was not muted, DanC
# [18:28] <chaals> zakim, mute me
# [18:28] <Zakim> chaals should now be muted
# [18:28] <Lachy> Zakim, unmute me
# [18:28] <Zakim> Lachy should no longer be muted
# [18:28] <DanC> I think the cgi client is cited from http://esw.w3.org/topic/InternetRelayChat
# [18:29] * Quits: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145) (Quit: mjs)
# [18:29] <DanC> Zakim, aaff is Debi_Orton
# [18:29] <Zakim> +Debi_Orton; got it
# [18:30] * Joins: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145)
# [18:30] <chaals> Wii!
# [18:32] * chaals did his taxes online Tuesday in about 3 minutes
# [18:32] * Quits: Patrick (c66fbe05@128.30.52.23) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
# [18:32] * Joins: Patrick (c66fbe05@128.30.52.23)
# [18:34] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
# [18:34] <Gregory> zakim, mute me
# [18:34] <Zakim> Gregory_Rosmiata should now be muted
# [18:35] <chaals> q+ to say you should use Opera for IRC :)
# [18:35] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [18:35] * Parts: hasather (hasather@81.235.209.174)
# [18:35] <chaals> zakim, who is here?
# [18:35] <Zakim> On the phone I see PatrickDFIon, DanC, Gregory_Rosmiata (muted), Lachy, chaals (muted), hsivonen, Preston, David_D, +1.518.664.aaee, Debi_Orton
# [18:35] <Zakim> On IRC I see MikeSmith, Patrick, mjs, olli-, edas, sierk, gavin_, Neovov, johnst, dbaron, gavin, chaals, Zakim, Alfonso, Gregory, h3h, kazuhito, Shunsuke, jdandrea, Ashe, Sander,
# [18:35] <Zakim> ... Deeder, loic, polin8, Lachy, zcorpan, Bob_le_Pointu, MattRaymond, schepers_, karl, ROBOd, tH, anne5, Dashiva, hsivonen, Preston, jmb, beowulf, krijnh, mw22, martijn, citoyen,
# [18:35] <Zakim> ... Yudai, DanC, gsnedders, Zoffix, xover, Hixie, wilhelm, claudio, jgraham, deltab, Philip`, RRSAgent
# [18:36] * Joins: mikkhonk (chatzilla@85.156.19.71)
# [18:36] <Gregory> zakim Gregory_Rosmiata is Gregory_Rosmaita
# [18:36] * Quits: mikkhonk (chatzilla@85.156.19.71) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/2007030919])
# [18:36] <DanC> let's not do "who is here?" too often
# [18:37] <DanC> http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/Zakim.html works
# [18:37] <Lachy> zakim, who is talking
# [18:37] <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', Lachy
# [18:37] <Lachy> zakim, who is talking?
# [18:38] * Joins: glazou (daniel@212.180.54.82)
# [18:38] <Gregory> lachy speaking is Debbie Orton
# [18:38] <Zakim> Lachy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.518.664.aaee (11%)
# [18:38] <glazou> good evening
# [18:38] * Joins: hasather (hasather@81.235.209.174)
# [18:38] <Neovov> hi glazou
# [18:38] <glazou> the conf call has already started ?
# [18:38] * Lachy is just testing out some zakim commands
# [18:38] <glazou> aaaah
# [18:38] <DanC> Zakim, aaee is Debi_Orton
# [18:38] <Zakim> +Debi_Orton; got it
# [18:38] <glazou> starting in 25mns right ?
# [18:39] <DanC> yes
# [18:39] <glazou> thx
# [18:39] <DanC> we're using the bridge to do orientation now
# [18:39] * Joins: mikko_honkala_ (mikko.honk@85.156.19.71)
# [18:39] * Quits: mikko_honkala_ (mikko.honk@85.156.19.71) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/2007030919])
# [18:39] * chaals believes
# [18:39] * Joins: mikko_honkala (mikko_honk@85.156.19.71)
# [18:39] <MattRaymond> I'm getting an error with Skype
# [18:40] <chaals> ack me
# [18:40] * Zakim unmutes chaals
# [18:40] <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to say you should use Opera for IRC :)
# [18:40] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:40] <DanC> I can only wish you luck with skype.
# [18:41] <hsivonen> MattRaymond: Skype is working for me assuming that the silent moments come from the Zakim vox and not from packet loss
# [18:41] * chaals using skype happily...
# [18:41] * DanC except that it brings background noise that makes Zakim think chaals is talking all the time
# [18:42] * Gregory chaals isn't - oh, right, that's me
# [18:42] * chaals doesn't hear the background noise...
# [18:42] * Parts: olli- (olli@80.203.95.229)
# [18:42] <Zakim> + +7.233.aagg
# [18:42] <Zakim> + +47.61.aahh
# [18:42] * Joins: Debi (oradnio@70.0.207.50)
# [18:43] <MattRaymond> I'm getting error message 9502.
# [18:43] * Zakim hears +7.233.aagg's hand up
# [18:43] * Zakim sees +7.233.aagg on the speaker queue
# [18:43] <DanC> Zakim, aagg is glazou
# [18:43] <Zakim> +glazou; got it
# [18:44] <MattRaymond> Screw it, I'll use my cell.
# [18:44] <Debi> The usability source is http://usability.gov. There is a PDF guide of the book available from http://www.usability.gov/pdfs/guidelines.html
# [18:44] <DanC> good to know, Debi
# [18:44] <chaals> welcome to IRC Debi
# [18:44] <sierk> Hi! Which Skype contact name or number do I have to call, to participate via Skype?
# [18:44] <dbaron> DanC, If you don't already have a scribe, I'm willing to...
# [18:44] <Lachy> Zakim, what is the passcode?
# [18:44] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Lachy
# [18:44] * Zakim hears hsivonen's hand up
# [18:44] * Zakim sees +7.233.aagg, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [18:44] * Zakim hears hsivonen's hand down
# [18:44] <sierk> Thanx
# [18:44] * Zakim sees +7.233.aagg on the speaker queue
# [18:45] <Gregory> zakim, unmute me
# [18:45] <Zakim> Gregory_Rosmiata should no longer be muted
# [18:45] <chaals> [would be good, in the agenda, to put a link to the channel a la irc://irc.w3.org:6665/html-wg for clients that can easily connect]
# [18:45] <chaals> ack me
# [18:45] <Zakim> + +1.859.539.aaii
# [18:45] * Zakim unmutes chaals
# [18:45] * Zakim sees +7.233.aagg on the speaker queue
# [18:45] <chaals> zakim, aaii is mattraymond
# [18:45] <Zakim> +mattraymond; got it
# [18:45] * dbaron heads to the office
# [18:45] <DanC> queue=
# [18:45] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:45] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@71.198.189.81) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
# [18:46] * Quits: Shunsuke (Shunsuke@219.110.80.235) (Ping timeout)
# [18:46] <MattRaymond> zakim, mute me
# [18:46] <Zakim> mattraymond should now be muted
# [18:46] <chaals> zakim, who is here
# [18:46] <Zakim> chaals, you need to end that query with '?'
# [18:46] <chaals> zakim, who is here?
# [18:46] <Zakim> On the phone I see PatrickDFIon, DanC, Gregory_Rosmiata, Lachy, chaals, hsivonen, Preston, David_D, Debi_Orton.a, Debi_Orton, glazou, +47.61.aahh, mattraymond (muted)
# [18:46] <Zakim> On IRC I see Debi, mikko_honkala, hasather, glazou, MikeSmith, Patrick, mjs, edas, sierk, gavin_, Neovov, johnst, gavin, chaals, Zakim, Alfonso, Gregory, h3h, kazuhito, jdandrea,
# [18:46] <Zakim> ... Ashe, Sander, Deeder, loic, polin8, Lachy, zcorpan, Bob_le_Pointu, MattRaymond, schepers_, karl, ROBOd, tH, anne5, Dashiva, hsivonen, Preston, jmb, beowulf, krijnh, mw22,
# [18:46] <Zakim> ... martijn, citoyen, Yudai, DanC, gsnedders, Zoffix, xover, Hixie, wilhelm, claudio, jgraham, deltab, Philip`, RRSAgent
# [18:46] * Joins: heycam (cam@203.214.60.8)
# [18:46] * Joins: henrik (henrik@158.39.30.58)
# [18:47] <Debi> 41#
# [18:47] * Zakim hears Debi_Orton.a's hand up
# [18:47] * Zakim sees Debi_Orton.a on the speaker queue
# [18:47] <DanC> Zakim, Debi_Orton is Somebody
# [18:47] <Zakim> +Somebody; got it
# [18:47] * Quits: mikko_honkala (mikko_honk@85.156.19.71) (Ping timeout)
# [18:47] <DanC> Zakim, Debi_Orton.a is Debi_Orton
# [18:47] <Zakim> +Debi_Orton; got it
# [18:48] <Gregory> zakim, mute me
# [18:48] <Zakim> Gregory_Rosmiata should now be muted
# [18:48] <chaals> zakim, please mute me
# [18:48] <Zakim> chaals should now be muted
# [18:48] <MattRaymond> zakim, unmute me
# [18:48] <Zakim> mattraymond should no longer be muted
# [18:48] * glazou has a wet trout handy for chaals' phone
# [18:48] <chaals> zakim, Gregory_Rosmiata is really Gregory_Rosmaita
# [18:48] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita; got it
# [18:48] * chaals we do have patent policy in force.
# [18:49] * chaals depends whether random people speak.
# [18:49] * Joins: Shunsuke (Shunsuke@219.110.80.235)
# [18:49] <Patrick> Presumably a problem is a phone port is taken up by an unidentified.
# [18:50] <chaals> Patrick, no - Zakim is buried in the phone system....
# [18:50] <MattRaymond> zakim, mute me
# [18:50] <Zakim> mattraymond should now be muted
# [18:50] <Gregory> via phone, one can join the queue by pressing 41 followed by the # sign; to exit the queue, press 40 followed by the # sign
# [18:50] * glazou knows why his phone number is weird : calling from skype
# [18:50] <chaals> agenda+ using q+/q-/q= and q+ to (and the magic numbers)
# [18:50] * Zakim notes agendum 5 added
# [18:50] <Patrick> I thought we were allotted only so many ports for a given telcon; I recollect running out once.
# [18:51] <MattRaymond> zakim, unmute me
# [18:51] <Zakim> mattraymond should no longer be muted
# [18:51] <Gregory> alternative collaboration technologies;
# [18:51] <Gregory> DD and MR using pointers from HTML WG space
# [18:52] <Gregory> DC: IRC channel been open since March 2007; anything written to channel is archived and stored on w3 space
# [18:52] * hsivonen q+
# [18:52] * Zakim sees Debi_Orton.a, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [18:52] <Gregory> hard to follow the mailing list plus the IRC channel (active 24 hours a day)
# [18:53] <Gregory> DanC: no one expects you to follow it
# [18:53] <Gregory> if you miss discussions, hard to find them
# [18:53] <MattRaymond> q
# [18:53] <MattRaymond> q+
# [18:53] * Zakim sees Debi_Orton.a, hsivonen, MattRaymond on the speaker queue
# [18:53] <Gregory> DanC: if you chat in IRC and want to bring attention to the whole WG, email a pointer
# [18:53] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
# [18:53] * Joins: JacksonW (jackson@66.92.150.81)
# [18:53] <chaals> scribenick: Gregory
# [18:54] * Joins: hyatt (hyatt@17.255.100.75)
# [18:54] * glazou waves at hyatt
# [18:54] <hyatt> hi
# [18:54] <mjs> hello hyatt
# [18:54] <DanC> Zakim, [Mozilla] holds Gavin_Sharp
# [18:54] <Zakim> +Gavin_Sharp; got it
# [18:55] <DanC> Zakim, Gavin_Sharp is Gavin
# [18:55] <Zakim> sorry, DanC, I do not recognize a party named 'Gavin_Sharp'
# [18:56] <Gregory> teleconference via the web? used to coordinate between gamers; don't know name of app
# [18:57] * Joins: John_Boyer (boyerj@32.97.110.142)
# [18:57] <Gregory> DanC: 40 to 400 people at any given time; demo of Open Croquet (sp?) downloaded
# [18:57] <Gregory> something that would allow re-threading of related threads
# [18:57] <hsivonen> jwz threading :-)
# [18:57] <gavin> z
# [18:57] <Gregory> DanC: hard to do; email the lingua franca for a reason
# [18:57] <hsivonen> MattRaymond: I think the software you mentioned is TeamSpeak
# [18:58] <Gregory> URI?
# [18:58] <Zakim> + +1.202.741.aajj
# [18:58] * glazou is now known as glazou_brb
# [18:58] * Joins: pasquale (pasquale_p@213.140.16.189)
# [18:58] * Joins: CarolK (carol@69.155.89.80)
# [18:58] <MattRaymond> Yes, it was Teamspeak, I think.
# [18:58] <Zakim> - +47.61.aahh
# [18:58] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@80.143.147.54)
# [18:58] <Zakim> + +1.250.294.aakk
# [18:58] <DanC> hsivonen, please use MattRaymond, to address him, rather than MattRaymond: , as MattRaymond: is the syntax we use to record what somebody said, as in play notation. "Romeo: ..."
# [18:59] <hsivonen> DanC, ok. this is the irssi autocomplete
# [18:59] <MattRaymond> DanC: Not use to using IRC
# [18:59] <DanC> looking up jackson in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/tel26Apr/results
# [18:59] * Gregory trying to keep list of attendees as introduced
# [18:59] <JacksonW> Jackson = me
# [18:59] <DanC> Zakim, aajj is JacksonW
# [18:59] <Zakim> +JacksonW; got it
# [18:59] * chaals wonders if JohnBoyer is aakk
# [19:00] <DanC> Zakim, aakk is John_Boyer
# [19:00] <Zakim> +John_Boyer; got it
# [19:00] * glazou_brb is now known as glazou
# [19:00] <Zakim> +??P9
# [19:00] * Joins: olli- (olli@80.203.95.229)
# [19:00] <chaals> zakim, ??p9 is MikeSmith
# [19:00] <Zakim> +MikeSmith; got it
# [19:00] * chaals volunteers to try and add people's names
# [19:01] * hsivonen q-
# [19:01] * Zakim sees Debi_Orton.a, MattRaymond on the speaker queue
# [19:01] <gavin> I'm not sure that I've been added correctly yet
# [19:01] <MattRaymond> q-
# [19:01] * Zakim sees Debi_Orton.a on the speaker queue
# [19:01] <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
# [19:01] <Zakim> + +49.251.86.aall
# [19:01] <Gregory> zakim, unmute me
# [19:01] <Zakim> Gregory_Rosmaita should no longer be muted
# [19:02] <chaals> gavin, you can try 41# on the phone and that will tell us if you are really recorded right
# [19:02] <MattRaymond> zakim, mute me
# [19:02] <Zakim> mattraymond should now be muted
# [19:02] <Gregory> zakim, mute me
# [19:02] <Zakim> Gregory_Rosmaita should now be muted
# [19:02] <chaals> zakim, aall is Julian
# [19:02] <Zakim> +Julian; got it
# [19:02] <glazou> Zakim, mute glazou
# [19:02] <Zakim> glazou should now be muted
# [19:02] <DanC> Zakim, aall is Julian_Reschke
# [19:02] <Zakim> sorry, DanC, I do not recognize a party named 'aall'
# [19:02] * Gregory nearing end of orientation
# [19:02] * Zakim hears [Mozilla]'s hand up
# [19:02] * Zakim sees Debi_Orton.a, [Mozilla] on the speaker queue
# [19:02] * Zakim hears [Mozilla]'s hand up
# [19:02] * Zakim sees Debi_Orton.a, [Mozilla] on the speaker queue
# [19:02] * chaals wonders if these are the same Julian...
# [19:02] <DanC> ack Debi
# [19:02] * Zakim sees [Mozilla] on the speaker queue
# [19:03] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.242)
# [19:03] <gavin> soory, that may be my fault
# [19:03] <DanC> ack moz
# [19:03] * Zakim sees [Mozilla] on the speaker queue
# [19:03] * chaals bets 24
# [19:03] <Zakim> +??P26
# [19:03] * dbaron Zakim, code?
# [19:03] * Zakim saw 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152) given for the conference code, dbaron
# [19:03] * Joins: mikko_honkala (mikko_honk@88.112.40.173)
# [19:03] * JacksonW bets 36
# [19:03] <Zakim> +Oliver
# [19:03] * dbaron gets "This passcode is not valid."
# [19:03] <chaals> ack me
# [19:03] * Zakim unmutes chaals
# [19:04] <hyatt> adele and i are on zakim now
# [19:04] * Zakim sees [Mozilla] on the speaker queue
# [19:04] <DanC> Olivier Gendrin?
# [19:04] <glazou> Zakim, unmute glazou
# [19:04] <Zakim> glazou should no longer be muted
# [19:04] <DanC> # Mikko Honkala <mikko.honkala@nokia.com>
# [19:04] <chaals> zakim, please mute me
# [19:04] <Zakim> chaals should now be muted
# [19:04] <chaals> zakim, P26 is mikko_honkala
# [19:04] <Zakim> sorry, chaals, I do not recognize a party named 'P26'
# [19:04] <mjs> is it time to call in?
# [19:04] <DanC> Zakim, take up item 1
# [19:04] <Zakim> agendum 1. "Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-04-26T17:00:00Z" taken up [from DanC]
# [19:04] <chaals> zakim, ??P26 is mikko_honkala
# [19:04] <Zakim> +mikko_honkala; got it
# [19:04] <DanC> yes, mjs
# [19:04] <chaals> mjs, yes
# [19:04] <Zakim> +[Mozilla.a]
# [19:04] <schepers_> maciej: yes
# [19:05] <Zakim> +??P4
# [19:05] * chaals wonders who just called in from Mozilla
# [19:05] * DanC changes topic to 'HTML WG 26 Apr telcon http://www.w3.org/html/wg/il16'
# [19:05] <chaals> zakim, [mozilla.a] is dbaron
# [19:05] <Zakim> +dbaron; got it
# [19:05] <glazou> dbaron: gavin
# [19:05] * chaals wonders who else joined
# [19:05] <anne5> Zakim, ??P4 is me
# [19:05] <Zakim> +anne5; got it
# [19:05] <hyatt> wonders if zakim thinks he's from mozilla
# [19:05] * chaals aah
# [19:05] <Zakim> + +1.415.595.aamm
# [19:05] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
# [19:05] <Zakim> +Ian_Hickson
# [19:05] <Zakim> +??P2
# [19:05] <Hixie> Zakim, i am Ian_Hickson
# [19:05] <Zakim> ok, Hixie, I now associate you with Ian_Hickson
# [19:05] <DanC> Zakim, aamm is mjs
# [19:05] <Zakim> +mjs; got it
# [19:06] <Hixie> Zakim, mute me
# [19:06] <Zakim> Ian_Hickson should now be muted
# [19:06] * Joins: adele (adele@17.255.97.13)
# [19:06] <JacksonW> zakim, please mute me
# [19:06] <Zakim> JacksonW should now be muted
# [19:06] <DanC> Zakim, who's talking
# [19:06] <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's talking', DanC
# [19:06] <gavin> Zakim, I am Gavin_Sharp
# [19:06] <Zakim> sorry, gavin, I do not see a party named 'Gavin_Sharp'
# [19:06] <DanC> Zakim, who's talking?
# [19:06] <mjs> zakim, please mute me
# [19:06] <Zakim> mjs should now be muted
# [19:06] <Zakim> DanC, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
# [19:06] <glazou> DanC: cannot hear you at all
# [19:06] * dbaron can hear DanC
# [19:06] <John_Boyer> zakim, who is making noise?
# [19:06] <Zakim> +TimBL
# [19:06] <Zakim> John_Boyer, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: MikeSmith (2%), glazou (8%)
# [19:06] * JacksonW can hear an echoey danc
# [19:07] <dbaron> Zakim, mute ??P2
# [19:07] <Zakim> ??P2 should now be muted
# [19:07] <Zakim> -TimBL
# [19:07] <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute me
# [19:07] <Zakim> MikeSmith should now be muted
# [19:07] <hyatt> has no idea what port he's on
# [19:07] <Zakim> -mjs
# [19:07] <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute me
# [19:07] <Zakim> MikeSmith should no longer be muted
# [19:07] <chaals> zakim, who is here?
# [19:07] <Zakim> On the phone I see PatrickDFIon, DanC, Gregory_Rosmaita (muted), Lachy, chaals (muted), hsivonen, Preston, David_D, Debi_Orton, Somebody, glazou, mattraymond (muted), [Mozilla],
# [19:07] <Zakim> ... JacksonW (muted), John_Boyer, MikeSmith, Julian, Doug_Schepers, mikko_honkala (muted), Oliver, dbaron, anne5, Ian_Hickson (muted), [IPcaller], ??P2 (muted)
# [19:07] <Zakim> [Mozilla] has Gavin_Sharp
# [19:07] <Zakim> On IRC I see adele, mikko_honkala, dbaron, olli-, Julian, CarolK, pasquale, John_Boyer, hyatt, JacksonW, Shunsuke, henrik, heycam, Debi, hasather, glazou, MikeSmith, Patrick, mjs,
# [19:07] <Zakim> ... edas, sierk, gavin_, Neovov, johnst, gavin, chaals, Zakim, Alfonso, Gregory, h3h, kazuhito, jdandrea, Ashe, Sander, Deeder, loic, polin8, Lachy, zcorpan, Bob_le_Pointu,
# [19:07] <Gregory> hyatt the port is the public one 6665
# [19:07] <Zakim> ... MattRaymond, schepers_, karl, ROBOd, tH, anne5, Dashiva, hsivonen, Preston, jmb, beowulf, krijnh, mw22, martijn, citoyen, Yudai, DanC, gsnedders, Zoffix, xover, Hixie, wilhelm,
# [19:07] <Zakim> ... claudio
# [19:07] <Zakim> +??P13
# [19:07] <Zakim> +TimBL
# [19:07] <adele> hyatt and I are on the phone
# [19:08] <DanC> chaals, use http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/Zakim.html
# [19:08] <hyatt> i meant my zakin id or something
# [19:08] <Zakim> +mjs
# [19:08] * Joins: timbl (timbl@128.30.52.30)
# [19:08] <Gregory> DanC: i will be your chair today; Chris Wilson will be joining soon
# [19:08] <Zakim> +??P27
# [19:09] <chaals> scribe: Gregory
# [19:09] <chaals> zakim, ??p27 is arun
# [19:09] <Zakim> +arun; got it
# [19:09] * chaals waves to arun
# [19:09] * schepers_ waves to arun
# [19:09] <glazou> chaals: he's not on irc is he ?
# [19:09] * timbl waves from the back row
# [19:09] <Gregory> DanC: Tim Berners-Lee and John Boyer invited guests
# [19:09] * chaals sees no arun on IRC
# [19:09] <DanC> for real-time roll, see http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/Zakim.html
# [19:10] * Joins: lbolstad (lbolstad@213.236.208.22)
# [19:10] <DanC> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Apr/1458.html
# [19:10] * chaals wonders if lbolstad is on the phone
# [19:10] * Joins: ddailey (david.dail@205.149.71.40)
# [19:10] * DanC q?
# [19:10] * Zakim sees [Mozilla] on the speaker queue
# [19:10] <sierk> Where on this list http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/Zakim.html am I?
# [19:10] <Gregory> DanC: telecon questionaire comments incorporated into agenda by DanC
# [19:11] <DanC> queue=
# [19:11] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:11] * Joins: arun (chatzilla@64.236.139.199)
# [19:11] <Gregory> DanC: comments on agenda?
# [19:11] * glazou waves at "pote arun"
# [19:11] * arun waves back to glazou
# [19:11] * MikeSmith notes to chaals that he heard "this is [...] from opera" a while ago
# [19:11] * chaals waves at arun
# [19:11] <JacksonW> hola arun
# [19:11] <Gregory> DanC: anyone who cannot access slash experience agenda?
# [19:11] <Gregory> NO
# [19:12] <Zakim> + +1.401.455.aann
# [19:12] <Gregory> DanC: anything you say will be recorded (or may be recorded) for posterity in public web space
# [19:12] <chaals> zakim, aann is Tim_McMahon
# [19:12] <Zakim> +Tim_McMahon; got it
# [19:12] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [19:12] <DanC> Tim McMahon
# [19:12] <Zakim> -DanC
# [19:13] * chaals notes we just lost our chair...
# [19:13] <glazou> one of our chairs
# [19:13] <chaals> ack me
# [19:13] * Zakim unmutes chaals
# [19:13] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:13] <chaals> zakim, mute me
# [19:13] <Zakim> chaals should now be muted
# [19:13] * arun notes that we can only have one chair at a time
# [19:13] <Gregory> chaals: dan has dropped off, so chris please take over for now
# [19:13] <DanC> Zakim, close item 1
# [19:13] <Zakim> agendum 1, Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-04-26T17:00:00Z, closed
# [19:14] <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
# [19:14] <chaals> zakim, [microsoft] is temporarily chrisW
# [19:14] * arun wonders where in the world chaals is...
# [19:14] <Zakim> 2. Design Principles and Requirements [from DanC]
# [19:14] <Zakim> +chrisW; got it
# [19:14] <DanC> Zakim, take up item forms
# [19:14] <Zakim> agendum 3. "Forms baseline" taken up [from DanC]
# [19:14] <glazou> arun: quantum physics... observe the chair and it changes :-)
# [19:14] <Gregory> Chris: better wait until DanC back on
# [19:14] * timbl wonders whether chairs are fermions
# [19:14] <glazou> lol
# [19:14] <mjs> timbl: doesn't matter, they have opposite spin
# [19:14] <MikeSmith> s/Chris: better/MikeSmith: better/
# [19:14] * chaals suspects that Chris and Dan are really the same person... never in the same place together...
# [19:14] * schepers_ waves to arun
# [19:14] <Zakim> +Raman
# [19:14] <glazou> sorry
# [19:14] * timbl lol mjs
# [19:14] <DanC> Zakim, call DanC-BOS
# [19:14] <Zakim> ok, DanC; the call is being made
# [19:14] <glazou> Zakim, mute me
# [19:14] <Zakim> +DanC
# [19:14] <DanC> oops!
# [19:14] <Zakim> glazou should now be muted
# [19:14] * timbl the art of picking co-chars
# [19:15] <glazou> Zakim, unmute me
# [19:15] <Zakim> glazou should no longer be muted
# [19:15] * chaals you are really back
# [19:15] <Gregory> DanC: resume chairing meeting
# [19:15] <Patrick> Isn't entanglement working for us?
# [19:15] * chaals you were
# [19:15] <Gregory> DanC: can we take item 3 instead of item 2? objections?
# [19:15] <MattRaymond> zakim, unmute me
# [19:15] <Zakim> mattraymond should no longer be muted
# [19:15] <Zakim> -hsivonen
# [19:15] <DanC> "HTML5, comprising the Web Apps 1.0 and Web Forms 2.0 specifications, "
# [19:15] <mjs> zakin, unmute me
# [19:16] <mjs> zakim, unmute me
# [19:16] <Zakim> mjs was not muted, mjs
# [19:16] <schepers_> DS: does that mean taking it from WAF?
# [19:16] * DanC q?
# [19:16] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:16] <Gregory> DanC: will this group take over Web Forms? Dave Raggett and others putting together a task force
# [19:16] <schepers_> q+
# [19:16] * Zakim sees schepers_ on the speaker queue
# [19:16] <MattRaymond> q
# [19:16] <MattRaymond> q+
# [19:16] * Zakim sees schepers_, MattRaymond on the speaker queue
# [19:16] <Gregory> DanC: discussion?
# [19:16] <mjs> q+
# [19:16] * Zakim sees schepers_, MattRaymond, mjs on the speaker queue
# [19:16] <DanC> ack MattRaymond
# [19:16] * Zakim sees schepers_, mjs on the speaker queue
# [19:16] <John_Boyer> q+
# [19:16] * Zakim sees schepers_, mjs, John_Boyer on the speaker queue
# [19:17] <hsivonen> Zakim, code
# [19:17] <Zakim> I don't understand 'code', hsivonen
# [19:17] * schepers_ is now known as schepers
# [19:17] <Gregory> Matt: would like clarification as to what is going on with XForms transitional; my understanding is not technically a working draft, but is specifically mentioned in HTML WG charter
# [19:17] <DanC> (indeed... "XForms Transitional" -- http://www.w3.org/2007/03/HTML-WG-charter.html )
# [19:17] <Lachy> http://www.w3.org/2007/03/XForms-Transitional/
# [19:18] <DanC> ack John_Boyer
# [19:18] * Zakim sees schepers_, mjs on the speaker queue
# [19:18] * MikeSmith notes to hsivonen that code is 4865
# [19:19] <Gregory> DanC: basic idea is not a WD at this point; look at what XForms currently provides and what HTML5 currently provides; address ease of use inherent in XForms 2.0; want best of both worlds
# [19:19] * glazou changes topic to 'HTML WG 26 Apr telcon http://www.w3.org/html/wg/il16, conf call code is 4865'
# [19:19] <MattRaymond> q+
# [19:19] * Zakim sees schepers_, mjs, MattRaymond on the speaker queue
# [19:19] <Zakim> +??P19
# [19:19] <Gregory> comments are welcome on this, right?
# [19:19] <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/2007/03/forms-charter.html
# [19:19] <Gregory> should be a working draft - first public working draft should appear in June 2007
# [19:19] <hsivonen> Zakim, +??P19 is hsivonen
# [19:19] <Zakim> sorry, hsivonen, I do not recognize a party named '+??P19'
# [19:20] <hsivonen> Zakim, ??P19 is hsivonen
# [19:20] <Zakim> +hsivonen; got it
# [19:20] <chaals> q?
# [19:20] * Zakim sees schepers_, mjs, MattRaymond on the speaker queue
# [19:20] <Gregory> Matt: made some comments on draft already on list
# [19:20] * anne5 wonders who's scribing...
# [19:20] * anne5 doesn't volunteer
# [19:20] * chaals notes that Gregory is scribing
# [19:20] * anne5 doesn't have a proper headset to do such a thing
# [19:20] * mjs anne5, it's Gregory I believe
# [19:20] * anne5 oh, nm me
# [19:20] <Gregory> Matt: feedback with regards to document - have yet to get anything back; sent to public-html
# [19:21] <MattRaymond> q-
# [19:21] * Zakim sees schepers_, mjs on the speaker queue
# [19:21] <DanC> ack schepers
# [19:21] <chaals> ack sch
# [19:21] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [19:21] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [19:21] <Zakim> -Somebody
# [19:21] <Gregory> DougS: might be good if established what we are discussing; 1) Web Forms 2.0
# [19:21] <Lachy> MattRaymonds comments about XForms Transitional: http://www.w3.org/mid/460DD062.7020404@earthlink.net
# [19:21] <Gregory> some talking of Web Forms 2, some XHTML tranistional
# [19:21] <Gregory> DougS: will HTML WG take over
# [19:22] <Gregory> as a task force or part of main activity
# [19:22] <John_Boyer> The HTML WG and the Forms Working Group <http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/Group/> will work together in this Task Force to ensure that the new HTML forms and the new XForms Transitional have architectural consistency and that document authors can transition between them
# [19:22] <Gregory> arguments for both sides; feedback from XForms WD important
# [19:22] <John_Boyer> from charter
# [19:22] <Gregory> DanC: will be a task force that will investigate combining the 2
# [19:22] * mjs wonders if he should bother to use the speaker queue
# [19:22] <Gregory> Matt: convergence of Web Forms 2 and XForms Transitional?
# [19:22] <Hixie> mjs: yes
# [19:23] * hsivonen q+
# [19:23] * Zakim sees mjs, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [19:23] * Joins: Chris (cwilso@131.107.0.71)
# [19:23] <Lachy> q+
# [19:23] * Zakim sees mjs, hsivonen, Lachy on the speaker queue
# [19:23] <DanC> (if folks could use , for direct address and : for attribution, I'd appreciate it. e.g. s/mjs:/mjs,/)
# [19:23] * DanC q?
# [19:23] * Zakim sees mjs, hsivonen, Lachy on the speaker queue
# [19:23] <Gregory> John Boyer: yes; XForms transitional maps to XForms; forms WG looking at how to make XForms easier to author; XForms has good bit on this, Web Forms 2 needs author direction
# [19:24] <Preston> @ Boyer - the link you gave is not generally accessible.
# [19:24] <Gregory> features in HTML that don't find their way into XForms - specific to HTML because don't fit into XForms
# [19:24] <Zakim> + +035850570aaoo
# [19:24] <Gregory> JB: common tag set and vocabulary ESSENTIAL; whether expressed with well formed XML or tag soup, have same syntax, grammar, and concepts
# [19:25] * DanC q?
# [19:25] * Zakim sees mjs, hsivonen, Lachy on the speaker queue
# [19:25] <DanC> ack mjs
# [19:25] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Lachy on the speaker queue
# [19:25] * chaals from finland I think
# [19:25] <mikko_honkala> zakim, +0358 is mikko_honkala
# [19:25] <Zakim> +mikko_honkala; got it
# [19:25] <mikko_honkala> got dropped
# [19:26] * anne5 +1 to mjs
# [19:26] <Gregory> MJS: discussion topic evolved since got on queue; forms task force goal as stated in HTML charter is to ensure the HTML forms and XForms have same grammar and syntax; architectural completeness; keep XForms functionality in spec, have task force work on declarative featuers
# [19:26] * DanC notes that /me comments don't go in the record
# [19:26] <hyatt> agree
# [19:26] * Hixie thinks that's reasonable
# [19:26] <JacksonW> agreed
# [19:26] * anne5 it's a +1 so...
# [19:26] <glazou> yep
# [19:26] * Zakim heard ??P2 attempt to identify unsuccessfully
# [19:27] <mjs> MJS: correction, I said "architectural consistency", not "same grammar and syntax; architectural completeness"
# [19:27] <Gregory> strong view of consistency; what's been communicated in vision document; trying to create common set of ideas indicated by common tag set; if look at doc source transition between the 2 straightfoward; key issue for document authors
# [19:27] <DanC> survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/tasks83/
# [19:28] <Gregory> who will start forms task force? have HTML WG task survey; one task is forms task force (3 people already indicated interest)
# [19:28] * DanC q?
# [19:28] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Lachy on the speaker queue
# [19:28] <schepers> q+
# [19:28] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Lachy, schepers on the speaker queue
# [19:28] <DanC> ack hsivonen
# [19:28] * Zakim sees Lachy, schepers on the speaker queue
# [19:28] <Gregory> DanC: extend deadline a bit
# [19:29] <MikeSmith> s/same grammar and syntax; architectural completeness/architectural consistency/
# [19:29] <John_Boyer> q+
# [19:29] * Zakim sees Lachy, schepers, John_Boyer on the speaker queue
# [19:29] <Gregory> agree; forms should be in spec itself rather than seperate spec; Web Forms 2.0 is implementable, XForms no implementation; issues raised on mailing list but no solution or resolution; problemmatic that doesn't seem implementable
# [19:29] <anne5> (Besides the native implementation in Opera, there are also several libraries, a testsuite and a conformance checker.)
# [19:29] <Gregory> anyone aware of implementation?
# [19:30] <DanC> ack Lachy
# [19:30] * Zakim sees schepers, John_Boyer on the speaker queue
# [19:30] <Gregory> issues with JavaScript and side-effects not addressed in interoperable way so consistent across browsers; code execution order;
# [19:30] <MattRaymond> Gregory, Opera
# [19:30] <chaals> s/agree/hsivonen: agree/
# [19:31] <DanC> ack schepers
# [19:31] * Zakim sees John_Boyer on the speaker queue
# [19:31] <MattRaymond> q+
# [19:31] * Zakim sees John_Boyer, MattRaymond on the speaker queue
# [19:31] <Gregory> Lachy: why is it a goal to make Web Forms more like XForms? doesn't make sense; XForms doesn't read like a spec; starting over with new spec would be place to start; changes to Web Forms 2.0 on point-by-point basis
# [19:31] <Hixie> certainly all feedback on the wf2 spec should be taken into account, especially from forms experts like the xforms wg
# [19:31] <Gregory> DougS: task force should be open to entire HTML WG; how will it work
# [19:32] <Gregory> joint task force between the 2 WGs
# [19:32] * MikeSmith notes that if you talk on the conference bridge, typing in your own summary of what you've just said (as opposed to just relying in the scribe to do it) is OK/encouraged (to make sure the minutes are accurate)
# [19:32] <Lachy> Gregory, correction, I said starting over with a enw spec would be a mistake
# [19:32] <Gregory> scribe's correction - Lachy said new spec would be mistake
# [19:32] <Gregory> mailing list of over 300 people, task forces organized in seperate lists
# [19:33] <DanC> ack John_Boyer
# [19:33] * Zakim sees MattRaymond on the speaker queue
# [19:33] <Gregory> JB: trying to do with XForms transitional is to leave it open for new people to define and refine what it states; don't want Web Forms 2.0 to be basis of document until WG has identified things that are likely to change
# [19:34] <Gregory> HTML5 proposal is not to publish, but use as basis of discussion
# [19:34] <Gregory> first deadline June
# [19:34] <Gregory> requirements
# [19:34] <Zakim> + +1.218.340.aapp
# [19:34] <Zakim> +DonD (was ??P2)
# [19:35] <MikeSmith> s/starting over with new spec would be place to start/mistakewould be a mistake/
# [19:35] * MikeSmith damn
# [19:35] * MikeSmith will fix that
# [19:35] <Gregory> why rationalization necessary? trying to leverage the 7 or so years of experience that forms WG has had to address most complex forms problems; architecture in place that is very powerful; want to pull back to investigate how to make document authoring easier; solving more complicated problems being encounted now with HTML4 forms
# [19:35] * DanC q?
# [19:35] * Zakim sees MattRaymond on the speaker queue
# [19:35] <DanC> ack martijn
# [19:35] * Zakim sees MattRaymond on the speaker queue
# [19:35] <DanC> ack MattRaymond
# [19:35] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:36] <anne5> q+
# [19:36] * Zakim sees anne on the speaker queue
# [19:36] <Gregory> Matt: wondering if specific reason why first draft of XForms transitional can't be expressed as delta document? incorportate Web Forms 2 so don't have to reinvent the wheel
# [19:36] <MikeSmith> s/mistakewould be a mistake/starting over with new spec would be a mistake/
# [19:36] <Gregory> DanC: asked Dave Raggett to join call but had conflict
# [19:37] <DanC> Regrets+ Dave_Raggett
# [19:37] <Gregory> next XForms transitional document: amalgamation of 2 existing documents?
# [19:37] * hsivonen q+
# [19:37] * Zakim sees anne, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [19:37] <mjs> q+
# [19:37] * Zakim sees anne, hsivonen, mjs on the speaker queue
# [19:38] <Gregory> next document should have as much flow-in from useable material from whatever source; charter of HTML WG references XForms; task force will be reviewing and mapping and pulling in things from DaveR's bag of XForms with javascript efforts
# [19:38] <MattRaymond> q-
# [19:38] * Zakim sees anne, hsivonen, mjs on the speaker queue
# [19:38] * DanC starts to think about how to wrap up this discussion and move to the next item
# [19:38] <Gregory> need a couple of editors -- forms WG participant and HTML WG pariticipant co-editors, gatekeepers put concepts and ideas before HTML WG and if WG happy with that, then procede
# [19:38] <Zakim> - +1.218.340.aapp
# [19:39] <Gregory> chairs need to identify who will do this; too many editors a problem, as is too few
# [19:39] <Gregory> survey of tasks sufficient to recruit; send pointer to public-html and collect responses
# [19:40] <Gregory> link provided in member space
# [19:40] <Gregory> need to join to have access
# [19:40] * glazou notes we only have 25 mns left
# [19:40] * chaals yay! ;)
# [19:40] <Zakim> + +1.519.477.aaqq
# [19:40] <Gregory> everyone from IBM should have access - not limited to members of HTML WG
# [19:40] * anne5 wonders what is hidden away
# [19:40] * mjs is willing to give up his Q slot on this topic if we take further discussion of this topic to email
# [19:41] <DanC> ACTION DanC: call for forms tf volunteers (with review from John B.)
# [19:41] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [19:41] <MattRaymond> q+
# [19:41] * Zakim sees anne, hsivonen, mjs, MattRaymond on the speaker queue
# [19:41] * DanC q?
# [19:41] * Zakim sees anne, hsivonen, mjs, MattRaymond on the speaker queue
# [19:41] <John_Boyer> it's not letting me in (non wg member)
# [19:41] <MattRaymond> q-
# [19:41] <DanC> ack anne
# [19:41] * Zakim sees anne, hsivonen, mjs on the speaker queue
# [19:41] * Zakim sees hsivonen, mjs on the speaker queue
# [19:41] <Gregory> DanC: before continue with queue, want people to think about moving to next agenda item
# [19:41] <Gregory> JB: appreciate change in agenda to accomodate me
# [19:41] * Joins: myakura (myakura@60.239.122.32)
# [19:42] <Gregory> would make sense if XForms WG were Web Forms is lacking
# [19:42] <Zakim> +??P33
# [19:42] <Gregory> in this together;
# [19:42] <dbaron> q+
# [19:42] * Zakim sees hsivonen, mjs, dbaron on the speaker queue
# [19:42] <MattRaymond> q+
# [19:42] * Zakim sees hsivonen, mjs, dbaron, MattRaymond on the speaker queue
# [19:42] <MikeSmith> Zakim, ??P33 is MikeSmith
# [19:42] <Zakim> +MikeSmith; got it
# [19:42] <Gregory> Web Forms 2 has taken a lot of XForms transitional into account - what isn't solved by Web Forms 2?
# [19:42] <MattRaymond> q-
# [19:42] * Zakim sees hsivonen, mjs, dbaron on the speaker queue
# [19:43] <Gregory> good question to ask, no answer necessary
# [19:43] <chaals> s/Web Forms/Anne: Web Forms/
# [19:43] <chaals> s/good/DanC: good/
# [19:43] <anne5> Nesting of repetition is addressed though...
# [19:43] <anne5> John_Boyer, oh the survey page... dunno if everyone can address that, sorry
# [19:43] * Parts: olli- (olli@80.203.95.229)
# [19:44] <Gregory> have to answer to someone; if look at repeating as example, easy to build list of items; help if repeating structure had a consistent behavior when try to nest it; at least 2 level nesting VERY important to get right;
# [19:44] <anne5> John_Boyer, Sam Ruby joined on behalf of IBM btw
# [19:44] * MikeSmith reminds Gregory that convention is to prepend/append "..." for continutation lines from same speaker
# [19:44] <DanC> re "no answer necessary"... I'll have to elaborate in email. that's not a very good record of what I said. or meant.
# [19:44] <sierk> Agenda: On http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/tel26Apr/results I made a proposal for the agenda of the HTML WG concerning email address protection on websides. Is there any opinion to that topic or any opinion, if this could/should be solved by this WG?
# [19:44] <Gregory> there are examples of nesting for Web Forms 2 - best to post specific use case / scenario where you think things are lacking
# [19:44] <DanC> ack hsivonen
# [19:44] * Zakim sees mjs, dbaron on the speaker queue
# [19:45] <Gregory> DanC: wrap up issue, please
# [19:45] <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute me
# [19:45] <Zakim> MikeSmith should now be muted
# [19:45] <Gregory> vision for XForms Trans for non-professional authors; server-side portion - can such a product be made with standardization
# [19:45] <DanC> ack mjs
# [19:45] * Zakim sees dbaron on the speaker queue
# [19:45] <Gregory> don't think that's true - can talk about why you think that
# [19:46] <MikeSmith> s/vision for/hsivonen: vision for/
# [19:46] <Gregory> most useful way to express XForms Trans a set of team requests relative to Web Forms 2 with reasons for suggestion; use cases arbitrary
# [19:46] <DanC> ack dbaron
# [19:46] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:46] <Gregory> now have trouble - attributes seem to be the same, but not enough definition to ascertain if the same
# [19:46] <Zakim> + +1.218.340.aarr
# [19:47] <MikeSmith> s/don't think/John_Boyer: don't think/
# [19:47] * DanC q?
# [19:47] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:47] * MikeSmith asks who said "most useful way ..."
# [19:47] <Gregory> architectural consistency is usually an argument when 1 group of people trying to influence another group; using W3C forces browser venders to implement XForms; if you don that they'll just leave
# [19:47] <hyatt> agreed with dbaron
# [19:47] <Preston> agreed
# [19:47] <hsivonen> my point was that the product vision for XForms Transitional should be demonstrated in a non-standard product before trying to standardize authoring-product interop
# [19:47] <dbaron> an argument on either side of the debate
# [19:47] * mjs MikeSmith, that was me
# [19:47] * DanC q?
# [19:47] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:47] <ddailey> disagree
# [19:47] <Zakim> - +1.218.340.aarr
# [19:48] <Gregory> Murray: can everyone speaking ID themselves?
# [19:48] <DanC> Zakim, next item
# [19:48] <Zakim> agendum 2. "Design Principles and Requirements" taken up [from DanC]
# [19:48] <Gregory> DanC: ok, more of that is welcome, i guess
# [19:48] <MikeSmith> s/architectural consistency/dbaron: architectural consistency/
# [19:48] <chaals> [it would help with identifying people if speakers named themselves...]
# [19:48] * timbl notes you can look back at the queue
# [19:48] * chaals it would also help identifying who jumps the queue regularly
# [19:48] <mjs> MJS: I was the one who said that I think the most useful way to express XForms Transitional would be as a set of change requests relative to Web Forms 2 w/ use case justifications (just to clarify)
# [19:48] * Joins: Voluminous (Voluminous@66.195.32.2)
# [19:48] <dbaron> s/influence another group/make another group implement something/
# [19:49] <Gregory> DanC: item 2 - summary: W3C process has WGs publishing every 3 months; useful; HTML5 spec on our agenda - interesting, but small miracle to get published as WD in june; design principles - don't break the web;
# [19:49] <John_Boyer> JB: The best approach might actually be to identify the use cases, then adopt WF2 or XForms or hybrid solutions as they become apparent based on the use cases
# [19:49] <MikeSmith> s/most useful way/mjs: most useful way/
# [19:49] * glazou notes that having a first conf call in such a WG could be considered as an impressive deliverable...
# [19:49] <Gregory> design principles are an attempt to capture values of community, but don't tend to be hard-and-fast measurable things;
# [19:50] * Parts: johnst (johnst@83.89.44.198) (Leaving)
# [19:50] <chaals> s/design principles/DanC: design principles/
# [19:50] <Zakim> -John_Boyer
# [19:50] * Parts: John_Boyer (boyerj@32.97.110.142)
# [19:50] * MikeSmith - if you talk and don't get attributed correctly by scribe, please fix with s/foo/<yourName>: foo/
# [19:51] <Gregory> hixie did a lot of research on what is implemented; why does it have to be defined this way? because of dependencies; arguments pro and con; role of requirements in discussion
# [19:51] <MikeSmith> s/hixie/... hixie/
# [19:51] <Gregory> outcome of having requirements abstract design to allow those not directly participating in this group; requirements document should be understandable by all
# [19:51] <MikeSmith> s/outcome of/... outcome of/
# [19:52] <Gregory> W3C strives for consensus, but in this case didn't get it; so, we made a WG; if not happy about charter, there is a long line before you
# [19:52] <Zakim> -DonD
# [19:52] <Gregory> browser threshold - this WG can set it as requirement
# [19:52] * DanC q?
# [19:52] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:52] * schepers likes browser threshold
# [19:52] <Gregory> interested in possibility of W3C goals and requirements
# [19:52] <Gregory> anyone who disagrees with one of the design principles so far
# [19:53] <dbaron> s/anyone/Matt Raymond: anyone/
# [19:53] <Zakim> +??P2
# [19:53] <Gregory> Murray: disagree with one; related to semantic markup and effectively deprecating presentational markup
# [19:53] <DanC> looking at http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ProposedDesignPrinciples
# [19:53] <Gregory> seperation of concerns: spec should enable the seperation; does not require; specifically states that some presentational markup be retained
# [19:54] <ddailey> q+
# [19:54] * Zakim sees ddailey on the speaker queue
# [19:54] <schepers> q+
# [19:54] * Zakim sees ddailey, schepers on the speaker queue
# [19:54] <glazou> I hear what mjs said but I'm with Murray here
# [19:54] <MattRaymond> q+
# [19:54] * Zakim sees ddailey, schepers, MattRaymond on the speaker queue
# [19:54] <Gregory> could say "look thing is stablized; will give WG x amount of time to review"
# [19:54] * DanC q?
# [19:54] * Zakim sees ddailey, schepers, MattRaymond on the speaker queue
# [19:54] <mjs> q+
# [19:54] * Zakim sees ddailey, schepers, MattRaymond, mjs on the speaker queue
# [19:55] * Quits: Shunsuke (Shunsuke@219.110.80.235) (Client exited)
# [19:55] * Quits: myakura (myakura@60.239.122.32) (Quit: Leaving...)
# [19:55] <anne5> it's a wiki
# [19:55] <Gregory> Murray: think i would appreciate if have a designated activity with goal and deadline for producing such a document; should be an open process; if opinions in conflict, need to incorporate and synthesize down to what can be agreed upon
# [19:55] <hyatt> 300 people aren't going to agree on much of anything :)
# [19:55] <anne5> contribute
# [19:55] <MikeSmith> s/seperation of concerns/Maciej: separation of concerns/
# [19:55] <Hixie> there's no way we'll _ever_ have everyone agree on everything in a group this size
# [19:55] <Gregory> he who contributes owns it -- DanC
# [19:55] <glazou> hyatt, unless you suggest a beer
# [19:55] * Quits: Neovov (me@84.99.121.185) (Quit: Neovov)
# [19:55] <DanC> ack ddailey
# [19:55] * Zakim sees schepers, MattRaymond, mjs on the speaker queue
# [19:55] * Joins: josef (spillner@141.76.40.118)
# [19:55] <Gregory> process now ad hoc, here to talk about making it more formal
# [19:56] <hsivonen> the point of design principles is to document what we decided on point where there *is* likely to be disagreement
# [19:56] <Zakim> -Tim_McMahon
# [19:56] <hsivonen> s/on point/on points/
# [19:56] <chaals> s/he who contributes owns it -- DanC/DanC: People who do work should have a fair bit of say over how it is done/
# [19:56] <Gregory> everyone has been allowed to do anything;
# [19:57] <MikeSmith> DanC: The way you volunteer is by starting to do some work.
# [19:57] <Gregory> proscriptive and descriptive -- prescriptive: here are principles you should believe in
# [19:57] <timbl> q+
# [19:57] * Zakim sees schepers, MattRaymond, mjs, timbl on the speaker queue
# [19:57] <Gregory> if dissent on set of principles group expected to abide by, then group discohesive
# [19:57] <Hixie> in a group this size there will _always_ be dissent, the whole point of these principles is to set the line for where people _will_ disagree
# [19:57] <Gregory> sometimes good to keep watering down until everyone agrees, sometimes have to say no full agreement, but need something
# [19:58] <timbl> q+ to suggest that the operation of a group coming to a more or less shared set of principles is an important step
# [19:58] * Zakim sees schepers, MattRaymond, mjs, timbl on the speaker queue
# [19:58] <MikeSmith> s/proscriptive and/Murray: proscriptive and/
# [19:58] <Gregory> don't reinvent the wheel -- don't agree; tends to stifle innovation
# [19:58] <Gregory> DanC: not really doing innovation, doing standards work
# [19:58] <MikeSmith> s/if dissent/... if dissent/
# [19:58] <Gregory> a lot of stuff already proposed
# [19:58] * dbaron Zakim, who is noisy?
# [19:58] * Zakim dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P2 (29%), mattraymond (15%)
# [19:58] <Zakim> -David_D
# [19:58] <dbaron> Zakim, mute ??P2
# [19:58] <Zakim> ??P2 should now be muted
# [19:59] * MikeSmith oops
# [19:59] * MikeSmith - that last speaker was DavidD?
# [19:59] * chaals mike: yep
# [19:59] * DanC q?
# [19:59] * Zakim sees schepers, MattRaymond, mjs, timbl on the speaker queue
# [19:59] <DanC> ack schepers
# [19:59] * Zakim sees MattRaymond, mjs, timbl on the speaker queue
# [19:59] <timbl> q-
# [19:59] * Zakim sees MattRaymond, mjs on the speaker queue
# [19:59] <timbl> q+
# [19:59] * Zakim sees MattRaymond, mjs, timbl on the speaker queue
# [20:00] <Gregory> DougS: looked through design principles again; in past thought some very vague; looking through them, don't actually have an understanding of where we are; problem with adopting now is how do we test them? wiki documents or official documents
# [20:00] * Parts: ddailey (david.dail@205.149.71.40)
# [20:00] <chaals> zakim, who is making noise?
# [20:00] <Zakim> chaals, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: anne5 (13%), Doug_Schepers (5%), ??P13 (13%)
# [20:00] <Gregory> a tool to expedite work;
# [20:01] <Gregory> DougS: not all of them are clear in what the implications of them are
# [20:01] <chaals> zakim, mute ??p13
# [20:01] <Zakim> ??P13 should now be muted
# [20:01] <MikeSmith> s/Murray: proscriptive and/David_D: prescriptive and/
# [20:01] <Gregory> need an i ching or tarot card deck - whatever you see in it is what you belive
# [20:01] <hyatt> i think don't break the web is pretty obvious
# [20:01] <Gregory> don't break the web means a thousand things to a thousand people
# [20:01] <timbl> q+ to suggest that the point of adopting them is the value of the journey: that in discussing them, disagreements and lacks of understanding may be removed from the group. The discussion may help develop a lot of common understanding in a group
# [20:01] * Zakim sees MattRaymond, mjs, timbl on the speaker queue
# [20:02] <Gregory> elaborate the 2 paragraphs currently extant; possible not usefol to adopt as group
# [20:02] * Joins: olli (olli@80.203.95.229)
# [20:03] <Zakim> -??P2
# [20:03] <Zakim> -Raman
# [20:03] <DanC> (did I set any expecatations about telcon duration? 90min is what I have in mind now. i.e. 30 min from now.)
# [20:03] * gavin recalls seeing 90 mins somewhere
# [20:03] <Gregory> ChrisW: don't break the web as a browser means when deploy new browser, don't disturb systems or ecosystems already extant; need to keep errors in it otherwise infuriate web authors; many are ignorant of specs and reflexively blame browser (Chris' interpretation);
# [20:03] * chaals had an impression of 60 minutes, but can't document a basis for the belief
# [20:04] <anne5> DanC, don't think so
# [20:04] <Zakim> -Preston
# [20:04] * dbaron had an impression of both 60 and 120
# [20:04] * glazou has to leave in 2 mns anyway
# [20:05] <Gregory> alternate interpretation from ChrisW: don't have a revolution that overturns what has worked in the past; easier to progressively deploy UAs; with XHTML required all UAs be able to accept a different mime-type; IE6 didn't support that mime-type; ended up with server side multiple delivery options to support XHTML;
# [20:05] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
# [20:05] <hyatt> agree with chrisw
# [20:05] <Gregory> Dan: point of order: duration of telecon: 60 minutes mean adjourn now, have bridge reserved for another hour
# [20:06] <JacksonW> agree on 60
# [20:06] <chaals> ack me
# [20:06] * Zakim unmutes chaals
# [20:06] * Zakim sees MattRaymond, mjs, timbl on the speaker queue
# [20:06] <MattRaymond> q-
# [20:06] * Zakim sees mjs, timbl on the speaker queue
# [20:06] <Gregory> end now (2); end in half an hour (4);
# [20:06] <Gregory> DanC: 30 more minutes
# [20:06] <glazou> I have to go, bye people
# [20:06] <Chris> bye Daniel
# [20:06] <Gregory> DanC: HTML5 and design principles
# [20:06] * Quits: glazou (daniel@212.180.54.82) (Quit: glazou)
# [20:06] * chaals waves salut glazou
# [20:06] <chaals> zakim, mute me
# [20:06] <Zakim> chaals should now be muted
# [20:06] <Zakim> -glazou
# [20:07] <DanC> ack mjs
# [20:07] * Zakim sees timbl on the speaker queue
# [20:08] <Zakim> +??P6
# [20:08] * MikeSmith wonders who just joined
# [20:08] <Gregory> Lachy: 2 things - tried to document any principles where there is disagreement - that's why there is a disputed section; have to make decision as group; can't have things both ways; called for current version to be adopted so that everyone working off same document; if make W3C note, there will be an official standard procedure to make comments, objections, etc.; if want more consensus, putting it up as a W3C note would be good
# [20:09] <Lachy> Gregory, I didn't say that
# [20:09] <schepers> DS: if "Don't break the Web" is put in the disputed category, I'll rescind my objection
# [20:09] * sierk changes topic to 'HTML WG 26 Apr telcon http://www.w3.org/html/wg/il16, conf call code is 4865'
# [20:09] <dbaron> s/Lachy/Maciej/
# [20:09] * Quits: polin8 (polin8@64.81.134.176) (Ping timeout)
# [20:09] <Gregory> what edits are in the work? if stable can work quicker
# [20:09] <Gregory> need to make public; elaborate on things - eliminate what can be interpreted multiple ways
# [20:09] <DanC> q+ MM
# [20:09] * Zakim sees timbl, MM on the speaker queue
# [20:09] <DanC> ack timbl
# [20:09] <Zakim> timbl, you wanted to suggest that the point of adopting them is the value of the journey: that in discussing them, disagreements and lacks of understanding may be removed from the
# [20:09] <Zakim> ... group. The discussion may help develop a lot of common understanding in a group
# [20:09] * Zakim sees MM on the speaker queue
# [20:10] <henrik> ??P6 is Henrik
# [20:10] <MikeSmith> TimBL: The "don't break the Web" issue is one of the reasons the TAG was formed
# [20:11] <DanC> s/The "don't break the Web" issue/questions about design principles of web architecture/
# [20:11] <DanC> ack mm
# [20:11] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:11] <Gregory> TBL: design principles very hairy; TAG trying to determine what makes web work and what breaks it; journey of arriving on consensus valuable; have whole group in on discussion, creates common vocabulary and trust in one another; part of formation of group; hope for web was that all this discussion would happen via pointers; ease of work internally important
# [20:11] * Joins: polin8 (polin8@64.81.134.176)
# [20:12] <Gregory> Murray: versioning - decision has to be made; example of decision made by WG rather than a document that discussed principles
# [20:13] <mjs> q+
# [20:13] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [20:13] <Gregory> document that discusses principles should be a basket of low-hanging fruit; extrapolated doucment from technical architecture document and applied to HTML; discussions on principles widely disputed; might be interesting for concerted statement to be made, but if too large a number of objectors, weakens the spec; need something that everyone can point to and work towards
# [20:14] <Gregory> if find significant disagreement, have to remove them from requirements
# [20:14] * hsivonen q+
# [20:14] * Zakim sees mjs, hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [20:14] <Gregory> DanC: get 2 reviewers and see what happens after a week
# [20:14] <Gregory> another possibility is go around the table - 27 people - too many
# [20:14] <Hixie> 27 is too few, given the size of our group, not too many :-)
# [20:15] <Zakim> -Oliver
# [20:15] <Gregory> proposal: recruit 2 reviewers now, take a week to review current text, give as much editorial comments as possible, and a final i agree or disagree
# [20:15] * Hixie would be happy to volunteer to review them, if that's the approach taken
# [20:15] * anne5 volunteers
# [20:16] <Gregory> B) another approach: recruit 2 people, and talk again
# [20:16] <Gregory> Q: reviewers or editors?
# [20:16] * Quits: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
# [20:16] <Gregory> review in more formal sense; someone who can say on behalf of group this is something we can publish
# [20:16] <DanC> A: recruit 2 reviewers; largely delegate to them.
# [20:17] <DanC> B: recruit 2 reviewers; then talk more
# [20:17] <DanC> C: none of the above
# [20:17] <schepers> DS: I think the reviewers should be people not involved in writing the document
# [20:17] <DanC> MM B
# [20:17] <Patrick> B
# [20:17] <Chris> B
# [20:17] <JacksonW> B
# [20:17] <Debi> b
# [20:17] <Hixie> shouldn't we also let people who aren't on the call be able to decide this?
# [20:17] <Gregory> choice A: comfortable with what is there now; choice B: reviewers lead discussion in group; C) neither
# [20:17] <lbolstad> A
# [20:17] <Julian> B
# [20:17] <CarolK> B
# [20:17] <MattRaymond> B
# [20:17] <mjs> A
# [20:17] <mikko_honkala> B
# [20:17] <gavin> A
# [20:17] <pasquale> B
# [20:17] <MikeSmith> A
# [20:17] <Gregory> B
# [20:17] <anne5> A
# [20:17] <hsivonen> A
# [20:17] <Lachy> A
# [20:17] <schepers> B
# [20:17] <henrik> A
# [20:17] <sierk> B
# [20:17] <Hixie> A
# [20:17] * Quits: polin8 (polin8@64.81.134.176) (Client exited)
# [20:17] <dbaron> A
# [20:17] <beowulf> A
# [20:17] <DanC> hixie, we're not making a technical decision
# [20:18] <jgraham> A
# [20:18] <Deeder> B
# [20:18] <Sander> A
# [20:18] <DanC> just thinking about how to use email etc.
# [20:18] <arun> B
# [20:18] * Joins: polin8 (polin8@64.81.134.176)
# [20:18] <Gregory> B = 15
# [20:18] <chaals> B above A by small margin
# [20:18] <Gregory> who's offering to review?
# [20:19] <Gregory> critical issues, editorial nits, etc.
# [20:19] <Gregory> offers for review?
# [20:19] * mjs notes that Hixie and anne5 volunteered earlier
# [20:19] <Gregory> Ian H (hixie) offered earlier
# [20:19] * Hixie will be sending comments either way :-)
# [20:19] <chaals> schepers
# [20:19] <Chris> So will cwilso. :)
# [20:19] <DanC> ACTION IanH: review http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ProposedDesignPrinciples and advise the wG on whether to publish, or whether critical problems remain
# [20:19] * RRSAgent records action 2
# [20:19] * anne5 too
# [20:20] <DanC> ACTION DougS: review http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ProposedDesignPrinciples and advise the wG on whether to publish, or whether critical problems remain
# [20:20] * RRSAgent records action 3
# [20:20] <Gregory> DougS: would like to define role what is formal review process
# [20:20] <Gregory> one email that says i'm done reviewing and thumbs-up or thumbs-down
# [20:20] <Hixie> it'll be done within the hour
# [20:20] <Gregory> deadline: by next monday
# [20:20] * DanC q?
# [20:20] <gavin> we lost zakim
# [20:21] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
# [20:21] <Gregory> if reviewers make comments requesting editorial or substantive changes, should Ian change document?
# [20:21] <DanC> Zakim, close this agendum
# [20:21] <Zakim> I do not know what agendum had been taken up, DanC
# [20:21] <Gregory> when make substantive changes, PLEASE alert mailing list (public-html)
# [20:21] <dbaron> Zakim, this is HTML
# [20:21] <Zakim> ok, dbaron; that matches HTML_WG()12:00PM
# [20:21] <DanC> Zakim, take up item 4
# [20:21] <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
# [20:21] <DanC> Topic: HTML spec baseline
# [20:22] <Zakim> + +1.519.477.aaaa
# [20:22] <Hixie> whatwg.org/html5 and whatwg.org/wf2
# [20:22] <Hixie> whatever is current when it happens
# [20:22] <Gregory> need to track versioning
# [20:23] <Hixie> revision 1000
# [20:23] <DanC> what's the current version? or md5sum?
# [20:23] <Gregory> need version number pasted into IRC
# [20:23] <DanC> really? v1000?
# [20:23] <Lachy> 785 is the latest
# [20:23] <Hixie> (no, we're at 785)
# [20:23] <Hixie> (but the revision being proposed is whatever is latest when we take it)
# [20:23] <DanC> and md5sum?
# [20:23] * arun has to leave now, so says bye to everyone
# [20:23] * chaals bye arun
# [20:24] <Gregory> proposal is to use Web Applications 1.0 as base
# [20:24] <anne5> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker
# [20:24] <Zakim> -arun
# [20:24] <Zakim> -mattraymond
# [20:24] <Gregory> DanC: want to know what version we are discussing/using as a basis for work
# [20:24] <Hixie> today's version is 785
# [20:24] <Hixie> but it'll probably be 788 by tonight
# [20:24] <Hixie> and 800 by next week
# [20:24] <Hixie> and...
# [20:24] <Gregory> no pointer in original proposal
# [20:24] * schepers waves to arun
# [20:24] * DanC q?
# [20:24] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:24] <Gregory> Dave Hyatt as editor? open floor
# [20:24] * Quits: arun (chatzilla@64.236.139.199) (Quit: Chatzilla 0.9.67+ [SeaMonkey 1.0.5/2006091003])
# [20:24] <josef> anne5: thanks, is there such a tracker for wf2 too?
# [20:25] <Hixie> i mean, the spec has revved twice just in this phone call!
# [20:25] <hsivonen> it doesn't make sense to throw away the work WHATWG will do by the time this WG reaches the decision
# [20:25] <anne5> josef, wf2 probably won't get changes anymore
# [20:25] <Gregory> B slightly over A
# [20:25] <Gregory> Murray: designated reviewers?
# [20:25] <anne5> josef, the idea is to fold it in
# [20:25] <Gregory> DanC: Ian Hickson and Doug Schepers - everyone else can play along
# [20:26] <DanC> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/ is a useful sync mechanism
# [20:26] <Gregory> put the question today and give WG a group a week to answer
# [20:27] <Gregory> request: chair think out loud
# [20:27] * Gregory old habits die hard
# [20:27] * Quits: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
# [20:28] * chaals we managed to crash zakim... (or something did)
# [20:28] <schepers> q+
# [20:28] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
# [20:28] <schepers> q+
# [20:28] * Zakim sees schepers on the speaker queue
# [20:28] <dbaron> Zakim, this is HTML
# [20:28] <Zakim> ok, dbaron; that matches HTML_WG()12:00PM
# [20:29] <Gregory> item 4 on agenda - have proposal from 9 april 2007 to use HTML5 and WF2 as basis for discussion; if adopt proposal, need to review all proposals; conversation between editors and proposer on public-html; if issue particularly sticky, alert chairs and will be discussed under time limit
# [20:29] <Hixie> the current whatwg spec is definitely not in stone
# [20:29] <Hixie> i have 1000s of outstanding comments to deal with still
# [20:29] <Gregory> need new information before anything is changed; would not have status of resolved technical opinion; nothing set in stone; if want addition, have to justify it to WG
# [20:30] <Gregory> sufficient to send email to ask questions or use WBS forms?
# [20:30] <Gregory> chairs should make this decision and welcome any disagreement
# [20:30] * chaals prefers WBS forum FWIW
# [20:30] <Lachy> I don't want more +1s on the list, use a WBS form
# [20:30] <Gregory> already at that point - just want to word the question correctly
# [20:30] <dbaron> s/chairs should/Murray: chairs should/
# [20:30] <JacksonW> wbs
# [20:30] <mjs> I would also suggest a WBS form
# [20:30] <schepers> wbs
# [20:30] * anne5 doesn't care
# [20:31] <mjs> for something of this scale it's good to have things on the record
# [20:31] <Gregory> WBS probably most straightfoward thing; ChrisW want your eyeballs
# [20:31] <Gregory> DanC and ChrisW will speak tomorrow
# [20:31] <MattRaymond> What is WBS?
# [20:31] * DanC q?
# [20:31] * Zakim sees schepers on the speaker queue
# [20:32] <DanC> e.g. http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/tel26Apr/results#xattend
# [20:32] <Gregory> will put into WBS form; one vote per member; if votes are all yes and abstaining then carries; if objections then chairs will decide the question
# [20:32] <DanC> invited experts also get a vote each
# [20:32] <Gregory> one vote per member; invited experts also get to vote
# [20:32] <JacksonW> gotta go... thanks folks
# [20:32] * DanC q?
# [20:32] * Zakim sees schepers on the speaker queue
# [20:32] <DanC> ack schepers
# [20:32] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:32] <Gregory> not looking for majority or popular vote, but consensus; if object have a substatial reason why
# [20:32] <Zakim> -JacksonW
# [20:33] <Hixie> i gotta go, i have another meeting
# [20:33] <Gregory> DougS: if issue comes up were wide amount of disagreement - who decides: chairs? editors? to what degree are editors responsible to WG?
# [20:33] <Gregory> DanC: consensus means many yes votes and no objection
# [20:33] * Sander MattRaymond, WBS is "Web-Based Straw Poll" (those questionnaires)
# [20:34] <MattRaymond> OIC
# [20:34] <Zakim> -Ian_Hickson
# [20:34] <Gregory> if lack consensus chairs decide
# [20:34] <DanC> ACTION DanC: put the HTML spec baseline discussion by WBS in the next day or so
# [20:34] * RRSAgent records action 4
# [20:34] * chaals thanks DanC for chairing.
# [20:34] <MattRaymond> Does consensus require absolute zero against?
# [20:34] <Gregory> DanC: will give everyone a full week to respond
# [20:34] * Sander MattRaymond, WBS is "Web-Based Straw Poll ... And Balloting System" (to be complete) :)
# [20:34] <Gregory> DanC: adjourn formal meeting
# [20:34] <chaals> [please generally give a week for WBS questions]
# [20:34] <DanC> ADJOUN.
# [20:34] <Gregory> consensus = zero against
# [20:35] <Gregory> next meeting?
# [20:35] <Gregory> will we meet with some regularity?
# [20:35] <Gregory> DanC: authorized by charter to meet up to 1 time per week
# [20:35] <Zakim> -Debi_Orton
# [20:36] <Gregory> DanC: would like to have 2 scheduled times: one good for North America and Europe one good for Asia - rotate them
# [20:36] * chaals thinks any time good for the US but bad for Canada is excellent :P
# [20:36] * schepers chaals++
# [20:36] <hsivonen> I suggest preferring mailing list over telecons
# [20:36] * chaals or vice versa
# [20:36] * Lachy prefers not to have 03:00 telcons in the future
# [20:37] <Gregory> scribe's correction: not rotate meetings, but on decision of chair
# [20:37] <chaals> s/rotate them/swap between them based on whatever the chair feels like that week/
# [20:37] * schepers suggests Lachy move to somewhere on Earth... :P
# [20:38] <Gregory> ChrisW: don't want a weekly telecon; volume of email already swamping; telecon not going to help that dramatically; do want to meet regularly - once every month; actually twice every month with overlapping times
# [20:38] * mjs has to leave the call
# [20:38] <Gregory> propose a time anyone?
# [20:38] <Zakim> -mjs
# [20:38] <Zakim> -TimBL
# [20:38] <chaals> ack me
# [20:38] * Zakim unmutes chaals
# [20:38] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:38] <hsivonen> my reason for wanting to prefer email is that with the telecon ideas don't seem to be communicated as accurately
# [20:39] <mikko_honkala> bye
# [20:39] <Zakim> -mikko_honkala.a
# [20:39] <dbaron> 1pm thursday is, this time of year:
# [20:39] <MattRaymond> bye
# [20:39] <dbaron> UTC: Thu 2007-04-26 17:00:00 UTC
# [20:39] <dbaron> Auckland: Fri 2007-04-27 05:00:00 NZST
# [20:39] <dbaron> Sydney: Fri 2007-04-27 03:00:00 EST
# [20:39] <dbaron> Tokyo: Fri 2007-04-27 02:00:00 JST
# [20:39] <dbaron> Seoul: Fri 2007-04-27 02:00:00 KST
# [20:39] <Gregory> this time (1 pm EDST) is not good for asian participation
# [20:39] <dbaron> Beijing: Fri 2007-04-27 01:00:00 CST
# [20:39] <CarolK> bye
# [20:39] <Zakim> -Julian
# [20:39] <dbaron> Helsinki: Thu 2007-04-26 20:00:00 EEST
# [20:39] <dbaron> Paris: Thu 2007-04-26 19:00:00 CEST
# [20:39] <dbaron> London: Thu 2007-04-26 18:00:00 BST
# [20:39] * Quits: MattRaymond (chatzilla@70.147.81.16) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/2007030919])
# [20:39] <dbaron> Boston: Thu 2007-04-26 13:00:00 EDT
# [20:39] <dbaron> San Francisco:Thu 2007-04-26 10:00:00 PDT
# [20:39] * Quits: mikko_honkala (mikko_honk@88.112.40.173) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/2007030919])
# [20:39] <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
# [20:39] <Gregory> early evening in europe - earlier in the day would probably suit europe better
# [20:39] <Gregory> depends upon who you are
# [20:40] <Debi> quit
# [20:40] <Gregory> who cares about 1 hour earlier or later on thursday afternoon
# [20:40] <Debi> #quit
# [20:40] <Gregory> Lachy: earlier better
# [20:40] <Zakim> -PatrickDFIon
# [20:40] * Parts: Debi (oradnio@70.0.207.50)
# [20:40] * Quits: CarolK (carol@69.155.89.80) (Quit: CarolK)
# [20:40] <Gregory> DanC: trying to pick another time when sun is up in OZ
# [20:40] * Joins: primal1 (primal1@72.87.242.30)
# [20:41] * Quits: heycam (cam@203.214.60.8) (Ping timeout)
# [20:41] <Gregory> DougS: for SVG meeting east coast US (1 am boston time)
# [20:41] <Gregory> DanC: midnight chairing not convenient, but ChrisW could chair
# [20:41] <dbaron> midnight Boston is:
# [20:41] <dbaron> UTC: Thu 2007-04-26 04:00:00 UTC
# [20:41] <dbaron> Auckland: Thu 2007-04-26 16:00:00 NZST
# [20:41] <dbaron> Sydney: Thu 2007-04-26 14:00:00 EST
# [20:41] <dbaron> Tokyo: Thu 2007-04-26 13:00:00 JST
# [20:41] <dbaron> Seoul: Thu 2007-04-26 13:00:00 KST
# [20:41] <dbaron> Beijing: Thu 2007-04-26 12:00:00 CST
# [20:41] <dbaron> Helsinki: Thu 2007-04-26 07:00:00 EEST
# [20:42] <dbaron> Paris: Thu 2007-04-26 06:00:00 CEST
# [20:42] <dbaron> London: Thu 2007-04-26 05:00:00 BST
# [20:42] <dbaron> Boston: Thu 2007-04-26 00:00:00 EDT
# [20:42] <dbaron> San Francisco:Wed 2007-04-25 21:00:00 PDT
# [20:42] <Gregory> DanC: not trying to pick a hard-and-fast time;
# [20:42] <Gregory> Chaals: go for 10pm Boston time or 9pm Boston time good for asian participation
# [20:42] * Joins: mw22_ (chatzilla@84.41.169.151)
# [20:43] <Gregory> nine hour difference between Boston time and Australian time
# [20:43] <Zakim> -??P6
# [20:43] <Gregory> DanC: ChrisW - you probably will be chairing the asian meeting; DanC is happy to chair at this time 1pm EDST once a month
# [20:43] * Quits: henrik (henrik@158.39.30.58) (Quit: henrik)
# [20:44] <Gregory> action ChrisW: pick asian teleconference time
# [20:44] * RRSAgent records action 5
# [20:44] <anne5> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/
# [20:44] <DanC> ACTION Chris: try to find a Seattle/OZ time
# [20:44] * RRSAgent records action 6
# [20:44] <dbaron> Beijing and Boston are 12 hours apart in July
# [20:44] <Gregory> chaals: 10pm eastern will get you most of asia and OZ
# [20:44] * Quits: mw22 (chatzilla@84.41.169.151) (Ping timeout)
# [20:45] * mw22_ is now known as mw22
# [20:45] * Quits: lbolstad (lbolstad@213.236.208.22) (Quit: have to leave. bye.)
# [20:45] <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
# [20:45] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/04/26-html-wg-minutes.html chaals
# [20:45] <DanC> Gregory, I'll send out the edited record
# [20:45] <DanC> thanks for scribing!
# [20:45] <Gregory> do you need IRC log?
# [20:45] <xover> Perhaps find timezone distribution of of participants and find optimum + alternative times on that basis?
# [20:45] <Gregory> 2 meetings a month - one at 1 pm Boston time; one which ChrisW will pick for asian time
# [20:46] <Zakim> -DanC
# [20:46] <Zakim> -Lachy
# [20:46] <Zakim> -dbaron
# [20:46] <Gregory> DanC: unseats himself from the chair
# [20:46] <Zakim> - +1.519.477.aaaa
# [20:46] <Zakim> -chaals
# [20:46] <Zakim> -hsivonen
# [20:46] <Chris> bye all
# [20:46] <Zakim> -anne5
# [20:46] <Zakim> -chrisW
# [20:46] * Quits: Chris (cwilso@131.107.0.71) (Quit: Chris)
# [20:46] <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
# [20:46] * Lachy good night all
# [20:47] <DanC> xover, you're welcome to do that research, but I expect the actual optimum to involve so many factors that I'm not sure how valuable it will be.
# [20:47] <dbaron> timezone of participant doesn't give you all that much information about when they can attend meetings
# [20:47] <schepers> I think meeting twice a month would be reasonable
# [20:47] <Gregory> Dan: do you want slash need my IRC log?
# [20:47] <Gregory> if you're going to edit the minutes, should i refrain from running RRSagent?
# [20:48] * anne5 isn't convinced that having telcons helps much
# [20:48] <MikeSmith> I agree with dbaron about timezone not telling all that much
# [20:48] <DanC> RRSAgent, pointer?
# [20:48] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/04/26-html-wg-irc#T18-45-17
# [20:48] <Gregory> subteam meetings are advanced via telecons, not huge groups such as HMTL WG
# [20:48] <DanC> Gregory, that's all the log I need
# [20:48] <dbaron> I know people who wake up at 5am and people who go to sleep at 5am.
# [20:49] * mjs neither, most of what we did could have been handled by email
# [20:49] <MikeSmith> yep
# [20:49] <Gregory> ok, dan
# [20:49] <schepers> yeah, I'm East Coast US, but I'd much rather meet afternoon/evening/night than morning
# [20:49] <MikeSmith> my yep was to dbaron
# [20:49] <Gregory> plus one to DougS' comment
# [20:49] <MikeSmith> agreeing about times when people are awake
# [20:49] <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
# [20:49] <MikeSmith> and some people especially in Japan can't call in during work hours
# [20:50] <schepers> MikeSmith: are they just lazy?
# [20:50] <DanC> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [20:50] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/04/26-html-wg-minutes.html DanC
# [20:50] <MikeSmith> I think best time for people in Japan is after 8pm
# [20:51] * Quits: Deeder (Deeder@86.198.188.116) (Client exited)
# [20:51] <DanC> Meeting: HTML WG 1st Teleconference
# [20:51] <DanC> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [20:51] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/04/26-html-wg-minutes.html DanC
# [20:51] <DanC> Chair: DanC
# [20:51] <DanC> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [20:51] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/04/26-html-wg-minutes.html DanC
# [20:51] <DanC> Zakim, list attendees
# [20:51] <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been PatrickDFIon, DanC, Gregory_Rosmaita, Lachy, chaals, Debi_Orton, [Mozilla], JacksonW, MikeSmith, Julian, Doug_Schepers, mikko_honkala,
# [20:52] <DanC> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [20:52] <Zakim> ... dbaron, anne5, Ian_Hickson, TimBL, mjs, chrisW, hsivonen, mikko_honkala.a, MikeSmith.a, +1.519.477.aaaa
# [20:52] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/04/26-html-wg-minutes.html DanC
# [20:53] <anne5> DanC, I'm still not sure why the XForms WG would not be obliged to answer my question. After all, it seems that the HTML WG generally feels WF2 is a good idea...
# [20:53] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@80.143.147.54) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/2007030919])
# [20:54] * Quits: timbl (timbl@128.30.52.30) (Quit: timbl)
# [20:54] <anne5> Or did John Boyer say that and not you and the minutes are wrong?
# [20:54] * anne5 isn't entirely sure
# [20:54] <DanC> what the HTML WG feels on the topic hasn't been decided.
# [20:54] <Preston> "HTML WG generally feels WF2 is a good idea" -= me
# [20:54] <DanC> you're coming to conclusions based on a lack of information.
# [20:55] <Gregory> sorry about misattributions - first priority was to try and catch what was being said
# [20:55] <Preston> Or perhaps from a lack of discussion, as yet.
# [20:55] <anne5> based on majority vote after the HTML5 proposal was made
# [20:55] <mjs> well, we're about to have a straw poll to find out more officially what the HTML WG thinks
# [20:56] <DanC> good point; I keep forgetting that forms is part of the HTML5 package
# [20:56] <anne5> yeah, I suppose
# [20:56] <mjs> if at that point the Forms WG thinks that HTML forms features in the draft are insufficient, I do think they are obliged to say why
# [20:56] <Preston> Missed that. Perhaps the vote was more for "we should think about this".
# [20:56] <anne5> I also thing we should consider the point dbaron made about trying to get something implemented in browsers
# [20:56] <DanC> yes, dbaron's point is well made.
# [20:57] * Joins: heycam (cam@124.168.141.224)
# [20:57] <sierk> Folks, I have to leave now. Bye
# [20:57] <anne5> bye
# [20:57] <DanC> I overstate the case when I say they're not obliged to say why; but WF2 proponents have an equal obligation to say why it is the way it is.
# [20:57] <dbaron> For what it's worth, I wasn't saying that architectural consistency is bad -- I'm just saying that when it comes up is a debate I think it's a sign that the debate is often really about something else.
# [20:58] * Parts: sierk (sbornema@87.162.182.174)
# [20:58] <hsivonen> fwiw, I also think it is perfectly reasonable to ask the forms wg for specific comments on WF 2.0
# [20:59] <Gregory> plus 1 to hsivonen's last comment re asking forms wg for specific comments
# [20:59] <anne5> I meant to say on the telcon that WF2 has taken as much from XForms as possible into account while remaining compatible with the existing architecture.
# [20:59] <anne5> Where existing architecture is deployed HTML content and implementations.
# [20:59] <hsivonen> it is less reasonable to ask to work from XForms Transitional, because the XForms Transitional isn't a spec you could interoperably implement by just reading the document
# [20:59] <Gregory> anne - you might want to reiterate that on-list
# [21:00] <hsivonen> this is why I suggested preferring email
# [21:00] <hsivonen> we are now trying to explain and guess what who said
# [21:01] <hsivonen> s/the XForms Transitional/the XForms Transitional draft/
# [21:01] <josef> this has already found its way onto the list now ;)
# [21:01] <Gregory> my instructions were to capture the thoughts comments and actions; if you are misattributed, contact DanC or reply to the posting of the minutes announcement on public-html
# [21:01] <anne5> also, another reason it's a valid question is that the XForms Transitional draft is partially a copy & paste of WF2 features
# [21:02] <schepers> I also agree with hsivonen that there should be a point-by-point assessment
# [21:02] * Quits: Hixie (ianh@129.241.93.37) (Ping timeout)
# [21:02] <hsivonen> Gregory: what I said wasn't in any way meant as a criticism to the scribe
# [21:02] <josef> Preston: I've opened a student thesis topic about evaluating potential of forms, but I cannot say whether someone will work on it or not
# [21:02] <Gregory> hsivonen: none taken - just striving for accuracy
# [21:03] <Lachy> several of WF2 proponents have given feedback about XF Trans, yet, I haven't heard any substantial feedback from the XForms proponents about WF2.
# [21:03] <schepers> I think the scribe did a lousy job :)
# [21:03] <Gregory> thanks, doug :P
# [21:03] <schepers> any time, Gregory
# [21:03] * schepers is grateful he didn't have to scribe
# [21:03] <chaals> Lars Erik Bolstad was on the call
# [21:04] * chaals thinks that didn't appear anywhere
# [21:04] <anne5> he said something on IRC
# [21:04] <Preston> Josef: Interesting - what would that mean? Are you going to inflict the working group on the student?
# [21:07] <josef> Preston: no, but we had several issues with XForms (and even more with traditional forms), and the work would be to add some WF2 generator code to a uni project and to evaluate its strengths and weaknesses afterwards. There will probably be no browser-related implementation work, but in case of implementations issues, hunting them down would be part of the evaluation. Having an overview about which rendering engine supports WF2 to which extent would be nice.
# [21:07] <Gregory> GJR;s list of attendees: Patrick Ion; Mike Smith; Gavin Sharp; Charles McN (chaals); Lachlan Hunt (lachy); Ian Hickson (hixie); Preston Banister; Ken Savant, Karl Dubost; Michael Cooper; Tim Berners-Lee; David Daley; John St ?; Julian, Anne (anne5); Debbi Orton; Matt Raymond; Olivier Gendrin; Mikko Honkala; Henrik; Shunsuke; Patrick; Dan Hyatt; Jackson W; John Boyer; Pasquale; Carol K; Jackson Wilson; Mike Smith; Doug Schepers; David Baron; Adele; Arun from
# [21:07] <hyatt> Dave Hyatt, not Dan Hyatt
# [21:08] <hyatt> but if you want to call me dan i'll respond to it! ;)
# [21:08] <Gregory> sorry dave - i SHOULD have a better aural buffer and a better memory...
# [21:08] <hsivonen> Gregory: Henri Sivonen (hsivonen)
# [21:08] <Gregory> thanks henri - i'll add you to the list
# [21:08] <anne5> josef, Opera 9 has an implementation
# [21:08] <anne5> (with some known problems, obviously)
# [21:09] <Gregory> dave - even if i call you dan, i won't call you late for dinner...
# [21:09] <chaals> Arun Ranganathan, Lars Erik Bolstad
# [21:10] <anne5> josef, tests: http://tc.labs.opera.com/html/forms/ and http://tc.labs.opera.com/html/repetition/
# [21:10] <anne5> josef, if you search on Google you should be able to find some scripted libraries that implement the controls for Internet Explorer, etc.
# [21:10] * Joins: Hixie (ianh@129.241.93.37)
# [21:10] <Gregory> GJR counts 40 participants in his list, plus DanC and me
# [21:10] <Gregory> so that would make 42 on record
# [21:11] <Lachy> http://sourceforge.net/projects/wf2/
# [21:11] <anne5> josef, http://olav.dk/wf2/demo/ has some demo's
# [21:11] <anne5> 42
# [21:11] <anne5> problem solved
# [21:11] <beowulf> what was the question again?
# [21:11] <anne5> right
# [21:11] <anne5> :)
# [21:11] * Gregory is now known as oedipus
# [21:12] <Lachy> beowulf, the question of life, the universe and everything
# [21:12] * oedipus DanC asked me to change it while i scribed...
# [21:12] <Preston> " If you were using Internet Explorer 6 on a Windows machine or Opera 9, this demo would actually work! " (looking at http://olav.dk/wf2/demo/ )
# [21:12] <zcorpan> "how many participated in the telecon?" == "what is the answer to life, universe and everything?"
# [21:13] <Preston> 43?
# [21:13] <josef> anne5: thanks, I've bookmarked those (in konqueror, how ironic...)
# [21:13] <anne5> hehe
# [21:13] <oedipus> scribe's count was 42
# [21:13] <Preston> never can remember which it is
# [21:13] <Lachy> zcorpan, yes, 42
# [21:13] * Joins: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@67.154.87.254)
# [21:14] <anne5> the question is: what's the meaning of the question of which the answer is 42
# [21:14] <anne5> or something
# [21:14] <Lachy> what the?
# [21:14] * oedipus GJR smiles and winks at anne
# [21:14] <beowulf> and when we work that out, weither by WBS or email, we'll have forgotten the answer
# [21:14] <Preston> Douglas Adams ghost makes 43 ...
# [21:14] * anne5 is now known as anne42
# [21:14] * oedipus GJR doesn't have punctuation turned on, so smileys go into the perceptual black hole
# [21:15] * jdandrea refers those unintiated w/42 to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Answer_to_Life%2C_the_Universe%2C_and_Everything
# [21:15] * Quits: hyatt (hyatt@17.255.100.75) (Quit: hyatt)
# [21:15] * oedipus jdandrea, you just beat me to pasting that URI into IRC!
# [21:16] <jdandrea> :)
# [21:16] <jdandrea> amazing how it worked out to 42, innit?
# [21:16] * oedipus GJR needs to set dictionary rules for common smileys...
# [21:16] <Preston> and slightly scary
# [21:16] * oedipus amen to both of you!
# [21:17] * oedipus adios, compadres!
# [21:18] * Quits: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.181.16) (Quit: oedipus)
# [21:18] <jdandrea> Oh my: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html?type=1#ultimateQuestion-42
# [21:20] * Quits: josef (spillner@141.76.40.118) (Quit: leaving)
# [21:20] * Parts: adele (adele@17.255.97.13)
# [21:20] <Sander> drat, just too late
# [21:21] * Quits: pasquale (pasquale_p@213.140.16.189) (Quit: Leaving)
# [21:21] * Sander didn't see himself in that list of attendees. Was that list phone-only, or those participating in IRC as well?
# [21:22] <Sander> (not that I did anything of note other than vote, but...)
# [21:25] * Quits: Hixie (ianh@129.241.93.37) (Ping timeout)
# [21:26] <chaals> Sander, you can always write a corerction
# [21:26] <chaals> when the minutes are posted.
# [21:26] <chaals> Hi, BTW
# [21:30] * Joins: hyatt (hyatt@17.255.100.75)
# [21:33] <anne42> ok, e-mailed the bit about WF2 on the mailng list
# [21:34] <anne42> Sander, doesn't really matter whether you're on such lists or not
# [21:34] * chaals points out to anne that he isn't quite 21, let alone 42 :P
# [21:34] <anne42> despite appearances, i wasn't quite 5 either
# [21:34] <chaals> LOL!
# [21:35] * chaals looks forward to Anne buying me a beer in Boston...
# [21:36] <schepers> anne42, when do you turn 21?
# [21:37] * chaals wonders if Doug is going to ask for a beer too.
# [21:37] * schepers thinks beer tastes like feet
# [21:37] <beowulf> is that good or bad?
# [21:38] <schepers> good question
# [21:38] <schepers> I think it's bad
# [21:38] <jdandrea> Bordeaux fête le Vin?
# [21:38] <schepers> but ymmv
# [21:38] * chaals offers to help drink it.
# [21:39] * schepers wants anne42 to buy him a beer which chaals will then drink
# [21:39] * chaals going home - 15 hours in the office is enough for today
# [21:39] <chaals> night folks
# [21:39] <schepers> night, chaals
# [21:39] <beowulf> night
# [21:39] <anne42> schepers, 1st of August
# [21:39] <schepers> whoah! that's soon!
# [21:40] <schepers> I thought you were still 19 or something
# [21:40] <Preston> Oh geez - how many else on this list are just slightly older than my kids ...
# [21:41] <schepers> I am... if your kids are slightly younger than 38
# [21:41] <chaals> likewise
# [21:41] <beowulf> i'd be younger than your 38 year old kids
# [21:41] <beowulf> but not by much
# [21:41] * Quits: loic (loic@90.29.27.194) (Ping timeout)
# [21:42] <anne42> heh
# [21:42] <beowulf> i kinda wanted someone to ask timbl if he was on facebook or myspace and would he add them? i thought this was funny in my head
# [21:43] <chaals> He is on My.Opera
# [21:43] <schepers> beowulf: yes, it is funny... in your head :P
# [21:43] <beowulf> :))
# [21:43] * Joins: Hixie (ianh@129.241.93.37)
# [21:43] <chaals> I think he joins places that let him connect out of them, and use Foaf. I think there is one other somewhere...
# [21:43] <schepers> I wonder if he's on LinkedIn?
# [21:50] * Hixie comes back from his other meeting
# [21:50] <mjs> hello again Hixie
# [21:51] <Hixie> DanC: i think it's worth noting that while many of the wf2 proponents have made detailed reviews of the xforms transitional document, there really have not been any detailed reviews of the web forms 2 document from the xforms transitional proponents
# [21:53] <Hixie> also, a number of people have told me privately, and some others have said here in this channel, that they didn't think the meeting was a good use of 40 man-hours; maybe we should have a poll for the people who were on the call to see whether there is consensus over the use of having telecons?
# [21:54] <hyatt> i did not feel like the telecon was particularly productive
# [21:54] <hyatt> but i admit to being biased against telecons in general
# [21:54] <Hixie> or maybe telecons should be repositioned as just a way for people to get to talk to people about active topics, rather than the formal feel it had today (i mean, we made process decisions in today's call, which isn't to say we made technical decisions, but still, it seems bad to be making process decisions with less than 10% of the group present)
# [21:55] <Preston> Personally, I am not especially fond of teleconferences. Better to reflect and occasionally summarize in writing.
# [21:55] <mjs> I would prefer if the telecon made proposals to the mailing list (even for process issues, if it is one of significant weight) as opposed to trying to decide things
# [21:55] <mjs> I am happy for such proposals to be either "any objections" format or a straw poll
# [21:56] * Joins: loic (loic@90.29.40.86)
# [21:56] <Preston> (Oddly enough, had to drop out if the call for another call - just when Chris was saying something interesting.)
# [21:56] <Preston> s/if/of/
# [21:57] <mjs> the decision to have designated reviewers for the design principles in particular is one that I would have preferred to decide over email, but since it was just a decision to have formal review and then talk more, I don't think it is a huge problem in practice
# [21:57] * Quits: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@67.154.87.254) (Ping timeout)
# [21:57] <Hixie> yeah it's not clear to me what that decision really meant
# [21:57] <Hixie> but anyway, i've sent my review
# [22:03] * Joins: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@67.154.87.254)
# [22:09] <anne42> I suppose telcons might be useful if you're not conformtable with putting forward some suggestion
# [22:14] * Patrick is now known as patrick
# [22:15] * Joins: PatrickDFIon (c66fbe05@128.30.52.23)
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# [22:23] <mjs> some people do feel more comfortable on the phone
# [22:24] <mjs> I am ok with it as a discussion forum, not as much for a decision forum
# [22:25] <anne42> yeah
# [22:25] <anne42> I was surprised that people where put off by the way the design principles have been created...
# [22:25] <anne42> to me it seemed like a natural process
# [22:26] <schepers> I don't feel the same way, but I'm not surprised
# [22:26] <schepers> wait, let me clarify
# [22:26] <mjs> honestly, it started by me pasting things into the wiki that people said here
# [22:27] <mjs> because folks asked me to
# [22:27] <mjs> and I changed lots of things in response to feedback on the mailing list
# [22:27] <schepers> I'm not surprised that people were put off by the creation process, but I don't share their concern
# [22:28] <mjs> it was certainly ad-hoc, but I did not want to wait for a signed permission slip before typing up a rough draft
# [22:28] <schepers> any time you come late to a conversation, you're likely to feel left out (to paraphrase TBL)
# [22:29] <anne42> well, just say what you think
# [22:29] <anne42> you won't be intentially ignored
# [22:29] <schepers> my only remaining question is what effect is being aimed for by making them Official?
# [22:29] <anne42> intentionally
# [22:30] <schepers> anne42, like I said, I'm not shy, so I'm not worried... lots of people are shy, though
# [22:30] <mjs> I think about the same effect as any other non-normative W3C Note that is not a technical specification
# [22:30] <mjs> schepers: I actively sought feedback and I believe I was polite in all my replies
# [22:30] <anne42> people point to it for clarification, but it has no weight
# [22:30] <schepers> mjs: I'm not implying you didn't or weren't
# [22:31] <anne42> design decision FAQ
# [22:31] <mjs> like the TAG AWWW document
# [22:31] <mjs> schepers: well, I'm not sure how else to help shy people other than to ask for input and be nice to anyone who gives it
# [22:31] * anne42 notes that AWWW is a rec
# [22:32] <PatrickDFIon> s/suprsed/surprised/
# [22:32] <mjs> well that is silly but ok
# [22:37] <schepers> AWWW is rather more focused and less subject to interpretation compared to the proposed Design Principles
# [22:38] <anne42> depends on who you ask I suppose
# [22:38] <schepers> anne42: exactly what I mean
# [22:38] <anne42> it's not what you're saying though :p
# [22:39] * anne42 doesn't really like AWWW
# [22:39] <schepers> the fact that they are so open to interpretation is exactly my point... it should be a matter of "who you ask"... it should be clear prima facie
# [22:40] <anne42> huh?
# [22:40] * schepers has huge blisters on his palm from poison ivy :(
# [22:41] <schepers> huh huh?
# [22:41] <schepers> what's not clear about what I said?
# [22:41] <anne42> "who you ask" and clear prima facie seem rather contradictory
# [22:41] <Philip`> I think there was a missing "not"
# [22:41] <schepers> oops
# [22:41] <PatrickDFIon> * Can anyone say where there is an archive of logs of this IRC channel?
# [22:41] <schepers> s/should/shouldn't/
# [22:41] <anne42> it was in the topic once...
# [22:42] <anne42> PatrickDFIon, http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/
# [22:42] * anne42 changes topic to 'HTML WG | logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
# [22:43] <PatrickDFIon> anne42, wonderful. Thanks a lot.
# [22:44] <PatrickDFIon> I am suprised that the design principles are not mostly treated like 'Mom and apple pie' statements. That is they are general exhortations that suggest a direction but are not rules, and are often so vague as to need interpretation immediately. As such a collection, the write-up was really rather good.
# [22:45] * Quits: Alfonso (chatzilla@85.49.226.253) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/2007030919])
# [22:50] <mjs> schepers: I think part of taking them to W3C Note status would be to clarify and add examples
# [22:51] <mjs> schepers: AWWW is in fact pretty subjective
# [22:51] <mjs> schepers: for instance, there seem to be widely varying interpretations of what "Orthogonal Specifications" means
# [22:52] * Quits: anne42 (annevk@86.90.70.28) (Ping timeout)
# [22:53] <Philip`> You shouldn't write specifications with the text rotated by 45 degrees?
# [22:54] * Joins: anne42 (annevk@86.90.70.28)
# [22:54] <mjs> "URI Opacity" is also somewhat subject to interpretation
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# [22:56] <PatrickDFIon> Can an example of an interpretation of "Orthogonal Specifications" which does not amount to meaning 'moving in independent dimensions' be given, please?
# [22:57] <schepers> complementary but independent
# [22:57] <schepers> and not conflicting
# [22:57] <anne42> Not sure how much specs are really orthogonal though
# [22:58] <PatrickDFIon> So in different and disjoint regions of the same dimensions? That would indeed suggest the choice of the geometrical epithet orthogonal wasn't quite right.
# [22:59] <mjs> the specific example they give is of the HTML spec explicitly specifying something that they also expected to be in the HTTP spec, which HTTP then dropped
# [22:59] <PatrickDFIon> s/dimensions/parameterized space/
# [23:00] <Zakim> -MikeSmith
# [23:00] <anne42> MikeSmith, trying to drive up phone bills?
# [23:00] <mjs> note however that SVG 1.1 redefines the syntax of some CSS properties in a way that was maybe at one point expected to be done in CSS too, and The Director did not consider this a violation of orthogonality
# [23:01] <anne42> oops
# [23:01] <mjs> (redefines by allowing them to lack units where CSS requires units and would require properties without units to be ignored)
# [23:01] <mjs> so this is why I say it is open to many interpretations
# [23:03] <Zakim> -mikko_honkala
# [23:03] * Joins: schepers_ (schepers@69.134.24.226)
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# [23:03] <anne42> Zakim, who is here?
# [23:04] <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P13 (muted), MikeSmith.a
# [23:04] <Zakim> On IRC I see schepers_, anne42, PatrickDFIon, Zeros, loic, Hixie, hyatt, heycam, mw22, primal1, Zakim, polin8, olli, Voluminous, dbaron, JacksonW, hasather, MikeSmith, mjs, edas,
# [23:04] <Zakim> ... gavin_, gavin, chaals, h3h, kazuhito, jdandrea, Ashe, Sander, Lachy, zcorpan, Bob_le_Pointu, karl, tH, Dashiva, hsivonen, Preston, jmb, beowulf, krijnh, martijn, citoyen,
# [23:04] <Zakim> ... Yudai, DanC, gsnedders, Zoffix, xover, wilhelm, claudio, jgraham, deltab, Philip`, RRSAgent
# [23:04] <h3h> ding!
# [23:04] <PatrickDFIon> The general point that 'Orthogonal abstractions benefit from orthogonal specifications' seems to me a good one. A probelm with it is that what one WG is trying to solve may actually impinge on another aspect of things that could be abstracted separately, but there is no WG for that at the time.
# [23:04] <PatrickDFIon> The general point that 'Orthogonal abstractions benefit from orthogonal specifications' seems to me a good one. A probelm with it is that what one WG is trying to solve may actually impinge on another aspect of things that could be abstracted separately, but there is no WG for that at the time.
# [23:04] <anne42> Zakim, who is talking?
# [23:05] <Zakim> anne42, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
# [23:06] <anne42> Zakim, telcon ended
# [23:06] <Zakim> I don't understand 'telcon ended', anne42
# [23:06] <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
# [23:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P13 (muted), MikeSmith.a
# [23:06] <DanC> Zakim, drop MikeSmith.a
# [23:06] <Zakim> MikeSmith.a is being disconnected
# [23:06] <Zakim> -MikeSmith.a
# [23:06] <DanC> Zakim, drop ??P13
# [23:06] <Zakim> ??P13 is being disconnected
# [23:06] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
# [23:06] <Zakim> Attendees were PatrickDFIon, DanC, Gregory_Rosmaita, Lachy, chaals, Debi_Orton, [Mozilla], JacksonW, MikeSmith, Julian, Doug_Schepers, mikko_honkala, dbaron, anne5, Ian_Hickson,
# [23:06] <Zakim> ... TimBL, mjs, chrisW, hsivonen, mikko_honkala.a, MikeSmith.a, +1.519.477.aaaa
# [23:07] <anne42> Zakim, bye
# [23:07] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
# [23:07] <zcorpan> friendly bot
# [23:09] <anne42> it requires silly things like ? at the end of questions...
# [23:09] <anne42> but in general it works fairly well
# [23:10] * Joins: kingryan (rking3@66.92.187.33)
# [23:11] <Philip`> Was it originally designed, or has it just grown all the features that people want to make use of?
# [23:11] <anne42> All I know is that it was made to assist telcons
# [23:12] <anne42> It might be patchable too, but I'm not entirely sure about that
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# [23:27] * Quits: Preston (chatzilla@70.181.71.135) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/2007040314])
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# [23:31] <DanC> Philip`, definitely grown.
# [23:31] <DanC> Ralph adds a new feature whenever he finds time to hack on it.
# [23:37] <Zeros> Where is the telecon being logged to?
# [23:37] * Quits: polin8 (polin8@64.81.134.176) (Quit: polin8)
# [23:37] <Hixie> RRSAgent, pointer?
# [23:37] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/04/26-html-wg-irc#T21-34-15
# [23:38] <Zeros> thanks
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# Session Close: Fri Apr 27 00:00:00 2007

The end :)