/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-05-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed May 02 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  5. # [08:53] * Topic is 'HTML WG http://www.w3.org/html/wg/ logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  6. # [08:53] * Set by Zeros on Mon Apr 30 23:38:28
  7. # [08:53] <Hixie> i think that considering the spec to be a description of elements and attributes is one thing that made html4 as bad as it is
  8. # [08:54] <Hixie> (as opposed to making it a description of a language that happens to have elements and attributes)
  9. # [08:54] <Zeros> There needs to be some middle ground
  10. # [08:54] <Hixie> i'm not even really convinced that having sections per element is a good way of doing it
  11. # [08:54] <Hixie> e.g. <Legend> doesn't really work having its own section
  12. # [08:54] <Hixie> it should be defined in the <details> section and the <fieldset> section
  13. # [08:54] <krijnh> (Sorry for not updating the logs yesterday - my connection dropped)
  14. # [08:54] <Hixie> same with <dt>/<dd> and <li>
  15. # [08:55] <Hixie> anyway really gotta go
  16. # [08:55] <Zeros> later
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  23. # [11:07] <Lachy> I'm trying to think of a few examples of non-backwards compatible changes to help explain the difference between back compat and graceful degradation. Any suggestions?
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  27. # [11:39] * Topic is 'HTML WG http://www.w3.org/html/wg/ logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  28. # [11:39] * Set by Zeros on Mon Apr 30 23:38:28
  29. # [11:39] <Dashiva> That last post from html60 seems to be eerily close to xforms. I wonder if they'll join forces :)
  30. # [11:42] <krijnh> Ping
  31. # [11:43] <hyatt> html60?
  32. # [11:43] <hyatt> anne: i especially don't get the html5 should break backwards compat argument
  33. # [11:43] <Dashiva> Dmitry Turin
  34. # [11:43] <hyatt> anne: thats what xhtml does so there would be no point to html5
  35. # [11:44] <anne> yeah
  36. # [11:45] <anne> I suppose people think HTML5 will actually get implemented so they try to force XHTML2 design into HTML5 without realizing that it doesn't help
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  42. # [12:46] * Set by Zeros on Mon Apr 30 23:38:28
  43. # [12:48] <hsivonen> Gareth Hay withdrew his formal objection
  44. # [12:48] <hsivonen> IBM's formal objection is still standing
  45. # [12:49] <hsivonen> "one of the XForms opponents even asked recently how a particular simple WF2 form would be written in XForms, so the objections are not even based on firm knowledge of XForms but rather on having developed WF2" -- John Boyer
  46. # [12:51] <Lachy> that just indicates that XForms doesn't leverage existing skillsets, which is a problem
  47. # [12:52] <hsivonen> Lachy: that's a good point to make on the list
  48. # [12:53] <Lachy> do you know where I can find the email he's referring to, and his to response to it?
  49. # [12:55] <hsivonen> Lachy: my guess is that he is referring to mjs but he didn't properly respond to mjs. (presumably he didn't have a logical and technical refutation to mjs' points)
  50. # [12:55] <Lachy> ok, I'll search their emails
  51. # [12:57] <Lachy> ooh, so is Gareth leaving the group?
  52. # [12:57] <Lachy> "Fine. I think today will be my last day on the list. "
  53. # [12:59] <hsivonen> so it seems
  54. # [13:00] <Lachy> I should explain to him that his arguments were dismissed on technical, logical and practical grounds, and that he should not take it to heart.
  55. # [13:01] <Lachy> he says he's a newcomer, and so he needs to understand that there are a lot of people with significantly more experience than him, but that doesn't mean his feedback isn't welcome
  56. # [13:01] <Lachy> he just needs to be prepared think about issues, listen to others and learn.
  57. # [13:03] <anne> he already said he was clearly wrong...
  58. # [13:03] <anne> Which objections against XForms?
  59. # [13:04] <anne> I have enough knowledge of XForms to know that it isn't based on HTML4 and isn't based at all on HTML4 or the XML version of HTML4 forms.
  60. # [13:04] <hsivonen> Lachy: actually, I think John Boyer was referring to Anne--not mjs
  61. # [13:04] <anne> I think so too
  62. # [13:05] <anne> But I was more asking because I know it to be more complex
  63. # [13:05] <anne> because of the separation between controls and data and such
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  67. # [13:37] <gsnedders> in parts it seems as if Gareth hasn't read the charter (which you have to say you've read to join the WG)
  68. # [13:55] * hsivonen is more than ever of the opinion that technologists targeting the Web should be familiar with economics 101 and the basics of strategic management of technology.
  69. # [13:56] <hsivonen> in particular, with the concepts of marginal benefit, opportunity cost and the basics of Game Theory
  70. # [13:56] <gsnedders> no. implement every standard ever written :P
  71. # [13:57] <Dashiva> Too bad just watching 'a beautiful mind' doesn't give enough info about Nash equilibria
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  75. # [14:29] <Lachy> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/05/01/internet_explorer_standards/
  76. # [14:30] <beowulf> hsivonen: urls? :)
  77. # [14:31] <hsivonen> beowulf: in Wikipedia :-)
  78. # [14:32] <beowulf> i have to work for knowledge?? i did not sign up for this! spoon feed me!
  79. # [14:34] <hsivonen> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_benefit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory
  80. # [14:35] <beowulf> hsivonen: gosh thanks, i was only joking about spoon feeding
  81. # [14:37] <beowulf> on gareth hay's point about making the web better and html5 not doing that, aiui a better web is one that conforms to the w3c standards (largely) this is manifested by people running their site through the w3c validator and proving it's valid, no-one ever links to the actual standard always to the validator
  82. # [14:37] <beowulf> so make a validator that complies with the 'good and proper' recommendations in html5
  83. # [14:37] <hsivonen> beowulf: working on it ;-)
  84. # [14:38] <beowulf> hsivonen: cool, i saw that :)
  85. # [14:38] <beowulf> but is that not correct, no-one ever points to the actual spec to say they are valid, always to the validator results?
  86. # [14:40] <hsivonen> beowulf: yeah, people tend to point to the validator. which is why it important to have a conformance checker instead of a mere validator
  87. # [14:41] <beowulf> well, from my now developing point of view i don't think there's any need for two specs, just one from which a 'good and proper html' conformance checker can be built
  88. # [14:42] <anne> HTML5 already has "two specs"
  89. # [14:42] <anne> they are just intertwined
  90. # [14:42] <anne> see for instance the syntax section
  91. # [14:42] <anne> (which actually has two separate sections, not a good example...)
  92. # [14:43] <hsivonen> anne: we need better marketing of the nature of the spec on this point
  93. # [14:43] <beowulf> cool, i was referring to my suggestion from yesterday that two versions of the html5 spec might help gareth ad tina
  94. # [14:43] * gsnedders sighs… maybe he's been doing too much Latin
  95. # [14:44] <gsnedders> I read that as "gareth to tina"
  96. # [14:44] <hsivonen> beowulf: zcorpan wrote a style sheet to that effect
  97. # [14:44] <beowulf> gsnedders: apologies :)
  98. # [14:44] <gsnedders> beowulf: I'd normally correct such things in my head, but not today :)
  99. # [14:45] <beowulf> if i focus on just one channel maybe my typing will improve :)
  100. # [14:45] * zcorpan points to http://simon.html5.org/temp/author-view-of-html5.css
  101. # [14:46] <Lachy> wow, the commenters on that article on The Register just don't seem to grasp the issue
  102. # [14:46] <beowulf> right, now for the dumbass questions, what's the difference between a conformance checker and a validator?
  103. # [14:46] <anne> register?
  104. # [14:46] <Lachy> see the link I posted above
  105. # [14:48] <hsivonen> beowulf: a conformance checker checks for violations of the machine-checkable conformance criteria. a validator checks if the document is valid according to a schema
  106. # [14:49] <hsivonen> beowulf: if the schema does not capture all the machine-checkable conformance criteria, there is a difference
  107. # [14:49] <hsivonen> beowulf: (in practice schemas don't)
  108. # [14:50] <beowulf> hsivonen: thank you
  109. # [14:50] <gsnedders> Lachy: I like how one of the comments says that MS only implement standards they are involved in creating. There are plenty of standards that they were involved in that they don't implement (either at all, or properly).
  110. # [14:50] <Lachy> which comment # was that?
  111. # [14:51] <gsnedders> 4
  112. # [14:51] <gsnedders> "Tom"
  113. # [14:51] <beowulf> zcorpan: that stylesheet is great
  114. # [14:51] <gsnedders> quite of lot of the commentors seem to think it's possible to just write a standards compliant browser overnight.
  115. # [14:52] <zcorpan> beowulf: thanks
  116. # [14:52] <hsivonen> gsnedders: which is why the IETF "consensus *and running code*" is better than mere "consensus"
  117. # [14:53] <gsnedders> hsivonen: agreed.
  118. # [14:53] <hsivonen> actually, IETF is "*rough* consensus and running code"
  119. # [14:53] <gsnedders> the fact that HTML5 has multiple people already implementing the parsing section, and looking over with it with fine-toothcomb, undoubtedly helps
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  121. # [15:02] <zcorpan> perhaps we should do this at ietf instead?
  122. # [15:02] * zcorpan hides
  123. # [15:03] <anne> one reason not to do that is their text/plain specs
  124. # [15:03] <gsnedders> originally the HTML WG was at IETF, IIRC
  125. # [15:04] <anne> yeah
  126. # [15:05] <gsnedders> (not that I was involved with the web then, obviously :))
  127. # [15:07] <anne> zcorpan, did you ever get around filing bugs on us regarding XHTML and CSS?
  128. # [15:08] <gsnedders> can I kill the computing exam? Mb != MiB!
  129. # [15:15] <hsivonen> anne: it would be fun to see if the anti-irc, anti-mailinglist, pro-campfire, pro-forum people would find the IETF spec format old school ;-)
  130. # [15:25] <zcorpan> anne: no not yet
  131. # [15:25] * zcorpan starts with opera
  132. # [15:26] <zcorpan> spec violation? not yet ;)
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  135. # [15:41] <zcorpan> anne: #263168
  136. # [15:45] <zcorpan> what component is this in mozilla? Core->Style System (CSS) ?
  137. # [15:45] <anne> likely
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  139. # [15:48] <Lachy> who is Dominik Tomaszuk and I wonder why he voted no? He didn't provide any reasons.
  140. # [15:49] <zcorpan> two "no"s now? wow
  141. # [15:50] <anne> seems that we voted
  142. # [15:51] <Dashiva> Two form nos from Boyer and two void nos from Tomaszuk...
  143. # [15:54] <hsivonen> is it just me or does the International Webmasters Association look more Italian than International?
  144. # [15:54] * hsivonen isn't familiar with the group
  145. # [15:54] <hsivonen> what does it do?
  146. # [15:55] <beowulf> carries out clandestine operations on the web
  147. # [15:55] <beowulf> assasinations, that sort of thing
  148. # [15:55] <hsivonen> looks like they certify Web professionals
  149. # [15:55] <hsivonen> http://www.iwanet.org/
  150. # [15:55] <beowulf> oh. that's much less interesting.
  151. # [15:57] <Lachy> ooh, thers another XHTML2 telcon starting in a few minutes
  152. # [15:57] <hsivonen> Lachy: will you attend?
  153. # [15:57] <Lachy> in IRC only
  154. # [15:57] <Lachy> probably just watch
  155. # [16:00] <anne> yay, people did studies for headers=
  156. # [16:01] <anne> I suppose headers= is easier to implement
  157. # [16:02] <anne> however, the use cases are addressed with scope and implicit header finding algorithms as well
  158. # [16:02] <anne> maybe headers= should just be supported in the processing algorithm
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  160. # [16:11] <Lachy> hey, Tina did join the XHTML2 WG :-)
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  162. # [16:27] <Lachy> they ignored my questions. oh well.
  163. # [16:27] <Dashiva> Isn't that what xhtml2 has become famous for?
  164. # [16:27] <Lachy> yeah, but it's fun to play with them a little
  165. # [16:29] <Philip`> Maybe that's why they're ignoring your questions?
  166. # [16:31] <Lachy> oh, steven wrote "Lachy, as chair, I have to tell you that you are not a member of the WG, and therefore we are obliged not to take your comments into account during WG meeting. You are free however to send comments to the list."
  167. # [16:31] <krijnh> :)
  168. # [16:32] <Philip`> Ah, so play with them on the mailing list and it should be fine :-)
  169. # [16:32] <Lachy> yeah
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  183. # [17:18] <anne> how would an author view of the spec help people reading it?
  184. # [17:19] <anne> i mean, why would they start reading the spec?
  185. # [17:19] <zcorpan> perhaps it would help people who do read it understand it better
  186. # [17:19] <anne> sure
  187. # [17:20] <Preston> Is there are better way to get a clearer grasp of the HTML5 spec with a minimal time investment?
  188. # [17:21] <anne> read the introductory parts and what you're interested in
  189. # [17:21] <anne> just reading section 1 would probably help a lot
  190. # [17:22] <xover> Actually, it would help a lot if the WHATWGers would point to specific parts of their spec when talking about its properties, what the spec does and does not do, and what the "intentions" of something is.
  191. # [17:23] <anne> I think we point to the spec now and then
  192. # [17:23] <xover> I'm sure you do.
  193. # [17:23] <anne> saying things that are not at the other end of the pointer seems weird to me
  194. # [17:23] <anne> because it might give an incorrect view
  195. # [17:24] <Lachy> when we discuss specific issues, we usually do point to the relevant sections
  196. # [17:26] <anne> Anyway, at this point it's not really relevant to discuss specific sections anyway I think
  197. # [17:27] <anne> More about finding out whether we want to do something or not... it seems.
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  205. # [19:09] <gavin> gsnedders: I'm pretty sure that Jeff was being sarcastic!
  206. # [19:09] <gsnedders> gavin: didn't come across :)
  207. # [19:09] <gavin> the application/eckshtml didn't trigger your sarcasm meter? :)
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  209. # [19:09] <gsnedders> gavin: I'd've sent it anyway replying to some other email
  210. # [19:10] <gsnedders> gavin: too many people seem to be forgetting what we're chartered to do
  211. # [19:11] <gsnedders> gavin: and I've seen all too many people posting seemingly silly things while meaning them
  212. # [19:11] <Philip`> We need to define a good parsing algorithm for <sarcasm>, given the constraints that its usage in existing content relies on both the start and end tags being optional
  213. # [19:11] <gsnedders> :)
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  219. # [19:20] <Philip`> Does anyone have an existing example of the type of document they'd like for authors, e.g. good comprehensive tutorials or guides to HTML4, that could demonstrate what the HTML WG should try to produce?
  220. # [19:20] <Philip`> (I would assume that such a thing either exists already (for some language other than HTML5), or else is impossible)
  221. # [19:21] <gsnedders> something along the lines of the majority of other HTML reference documents
  222. # [19:22] <Philip`> (It would be fun to have something like Why's (Poignant) Guide to Ruby...)
  223. # [19:23] <gsnedders> (link?)
  224. # [19:23] <Philip`> Are there specific ones of those other HTML reference documents that you think are good?
  225. # [19:23] <Philip`> (http://poignantguide.net/)
  226. # [19:24] <Philip`> (I've only ever looked at a few pages, but it looks more interesting than many other guides)
  227. # [19:24] <gsnedders> I like the general layout of the <http://w3schools.com/tags/default.asp>, though I think there really should be a better ToC, as well as better description :P
  228. # [19:25] <gsnedders> though of course there are a billion ways to do it
  229. # [19:27] <gsnedders> but there again, we proper should have some ultra-basic document, as a proper guide.
  230. # [19:27] <gsnedders> starting with the reader knowing no HTML
  231. # [19:27] <gsnedders> *probably
  232. # [19:27] <gsnedders> (or any other non-spoken language)
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  257. # [20:54] <mjs> it's becoming impossible to keep up with public-html
  258. # [20:55] <hober> It's quite a firehose, yes
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  261. # [20:59] <h3h> it's actually pretty easy to keep up if you just ignore the babbling in the same 10 threads
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  269. # [21:06] <anne> lol, people are suggesting new MIME types
  270. # [21:07] <gavin> well, I think only one person was
  271. # [21:07] <anne> right
  272. # [21:07] <gavin> dbaron suggested it was the only way to transition to draconian error handling, and then someone said "hey good idea!" not realizing that it wasn't what dbaron was proposing
  273. # [21:07] <gavin> and then Jeff posted his sarcastic reply to that
  274. # [21:08] <dbaron> sarcasm doesn't work in email
  275. # [21:10] <hober> We all know how well the switch to draconian error handling coupled with a new media type went last time!
  276. # [21:10] <anne> heh, html60 would do good to actually read specs first...
  277. # [21:10] <anne> <ol start=> and <li value=> ..
  278. # [21:14] <h3h> somehow I expected more than random IRC trolling-style discussion from this list
  279. # [21:14] <h3h> it's just a pile of FUD, ad homs and misinterpretations
  280. # [21:19] <anne> the problem is that everything seems to be up in the air and that key people (the chairs) are not making clear what is in scope and out of scope
  281. # [21:19] <anne> but maybe everything should be discussed first, dunno
  282. # [21:19] <anne> at the rate this is going WHATWG will have HTML6 done by the time we publish some heavily compromised design principles
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  285. # [21:21] <DanC> any CSS WG members about? I'm learning about this "overlapping table cells" issue http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css2-src/issues/issues-4.html#issue-3 , where evidently the CSS WG made a decision over the objection of Anne
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  287. # [21:22] <anne> I'm a CSS member
  288. # [21:23] <anne> Not sure if that helps here :)
  289. # [21:23] <DanC> yes, you're on record as objecting. Evidently Hixie, Glazman, and Hyatt are also members.
  290. # [21:23] <DanC> I'm trying to figure out their role in this decision.
  291. # [21:24] <anne> The larger issue is that table layout is not defined at all
  292. # [21:25] <anne> The minor issue this is about is that table layout for HTML and XHMTL is supposedly to be done different (per the CSS 2.1 spec)
  293. # [21:25] <anne> And then there's the member only issue about CSS not moving to CR for reason X
  294. # [21:26] * Quits: beowulf (carisenda@91.84.50.132) (Ping timeout)
  295. # [21:26] <zcorpan> defining tables is something i might look into in due course
  296. # [21:26] <DanC> oh phpht. /Style/Group/
  297. # [21:27] <anne> zcorpan, good luck!
  298. # [21:27] <zcorpan> anne: thanks :)
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  303. # [21:34] <DanC> "The CSS WG decided to _not_ change the spec based on Anne van Kesteren's comment" http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2007Apr/0047.html . That's public. Which CSS WG members were involved in that decision/
  304. # [21:34] <DanC> ?
  305. # [21:34] <DanC> one of our databases lists Hixie, Hyatt, and Glazman as CSS WB members; I wonder if they were aware.
  306. # [21:35] <anne> dunno
  307. # [21:36] <DanC> how does the CSS WG make decisions?
  308. # [21:36] <DanC> it seems to me that you'd know which WG members you were talking with. the group isn't _that_ big.
  309. # [21:36] <anne> I believe during telcons and meetings
  310. # [21:37] <anne> I attend neither
  311. # [21:37] <anne> usually
  312. # [21:37] <mjs> DanC: I can't imagine Hixie or Hyatt agreeing with those decisions
  313. # [21:37] <gavin> was "WB" above a typo for "WG"?
  314. # [21:37] <mjs> but I don't think they attend most of the f2fs or telecons
  315. # [21:37] <anne> gavin, yes
  316. # [21:38] <hsivonen> anne: does that mean the the CSS WG chose to blatantly disregard the way Presto, Gecko and WebKit interoperate with overlapping table cells? (and Trident, too, in text/html)?
  317. # [21:38] <anne> hsivonen, yes, as seen in Hixie's twitter logs sometimes issues are disregarded because a page is using scripting...
  318. # [21:39] <hsivonen> anne: sad, sad
  319. # [21:39] <hsivonen> anne: I used to think the CSS WG was the WG that put the W in the WG at the W3C
  320. # [21:40] <anne> I think it was mostly Hixie
  321. # [21:40] <hsivonen> anne: did they find two fringe implementations that actually implement what the spec says about cell that would overlap in real browsers?
  322. # [21:40] <anne> Hixie since moved on to fry bigger fish
  323. # [21:41] <anne> hsivonen, I believe so, but not particularly convincing implementations iirc
  324. # [21:41] <anne> The Adobe Mars project and XHTML Print profile implementations?
  325. # [21:42] <hsivonen> I feel guilty about procrastinating with filing my research on this issue in the CSS 2.1 issue tracker
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  328. # [21:45] * hsivonen notes "browser-wing conspiracy" in www-archive
  329. # [21:47] <anne> x-wing
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  344. # [22:26] <gsnedders> Philip`: (that Ruby guide is really rather good)
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  346. # [22:36] <hober> hsivonen: :)
  347. # [22:42] * Hixie learns that apparently the W3C offices at MIT are on the same floor as the CS Theory department's offices
  348. # [22:44] <mjs> John Boyer's Formal Objection doesn't appear to "cite technical arguments"
  349. # [22:44] <anne> that's ok
  350. # [22:44] <anne> makes it ignorable
  351. # [22:44] <Hixie> nor does the other one
  352. # [22:44] <mjs> the other one doesn't even have a comment
  353. # [22:44] <anne> we have two again?
  354. # [22:45] <mjs> John Boyer and Dominik Tomaszuk
  355. # [22:45] <anne> oh ok
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  359. # [22:49] <gsnedders> the Forms WG seems to be chartered to draw on WF2 for XForms Transitional
  360. # [22:50] <gsnedders> therefore, it makes as much sense to start from WF2 as it does from XForms Transitional
  361. # [22:51] * Joins: h3h (bfults@66.162.32.234)
  362. # [22:52] <mjs> It doesn't really make sense to identify XForms as a starting point, since XForms is not part of HTML, nor is it intended to be
  363. # [22:52] <mjs> it's like saying the HTML WG should adopt SVG as a basis for review
  364. # [22:53] <schepers> are you trying to draw me in here? ;)
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  368. # [23:04] <John_Boyer> anybody know the link for the rrsagent minutes of this conversation?
  369. # [23:05] <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make minutes
  370. # [23:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/02-html-wg-minutes.html John_Boyer
  371. # [23:05] <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make log public
  372. # [23:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, John_Boyer
  373. # [23:06] <anne> John_Boyer, see the topic
  374. # [23:06] <anne> John_Boyer, much better logs than RRSAgent
  375. # [23:06] <gavin> RRSAgent: pointer?
  376. # [23:06] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/05/02-html-wg-irc#T21-03-07
  377. # [23:07] <anne> all this nonsense about multiple specs and such
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  381. # [23:09] <John_Boyer> Too bad mjs just left...
  382. # [23:09] <John_Boyer> He claimed that my objection is ignorable because it doesn't cite technical args
  383. # [23:09] <John_Boyer> sure it does
  384. # [23:09] <John_Boyer> the question for vote was one of process, not technical
  385. # [23:10] <John_Boyer> so my answer was technical regarding the process
  386. # [23:10] <anne> except that your conclusions from the charter are wrong, afaict
  387. # [23:10] <John_Boyer> We spent 9 months negotiating the conclusions I have from the charters with the director and CEO of the W3C
  388. # [23:11] <John_Boyer> how can they be wrong???
  389. # [23:11] <anne> the HTML WG charter says nothing about aligning with XForms
  390. # [23:11] <John_Boyer> Did noone in this group see the vision document
  391. # [23:11] <anne> it says something about architectural consistency
  392. # [23:11] <anne> the vision document is non-binding
  393. # [23:11] <John_Boyer> nor timbls blog for that mattter?
  394. # [23:11] <anne> and is not the charter
  395. # [23:11] <John_Boyer> the vision document provides further clarification of the charters
  396. # [23:11] <anne> timbl's blog is interesting, though not the charter
  397. # [23:12] <anne> the vision document is quite silly imo
  398. # [23:12] <John_Boyer> Observe that the ONLY thing the HTML charter does say about forms is that the HTML WG will work with the Forms WG
  399. # [23:12] <John_Boyer> Fine, then go back to the director
  400. # [23:12] <John_Boyer> and get rechartered
  401. # [23:12] <John_Boyer> again
  402. # [23:12] <anne> no, it's non binding
  403. # [23:12] <John_Boyer> Yes the charter is binding
  404. # [23:12] <anne> only the charter is binding
  405. # [23:12] <John_Boyer> and it says we have to work together
  406. # [23:12] <anne> well, sort of, yes
  407. # [23:12] <anne> not about aligning with XForms though
  408. # [23:13] <John_Boyer> Right, the not-working-together working together solution
  409. # [23:13] <anne> I think so far we've been pretty willing to cooperate investing time in reviewing XForms Transitional and pointing out flaws, etc.
  410. # [23:13] <John_Boyer> We've had all these discussions already with myself and your chairs
  411. # [23:14] <John_Boyer> quite unclear why they aren't taking a leadership role in clarifying what we'resupposed to be doing
  412. # [23:14] <gsnedders> "The HTML WG and the Forms Working Group will work together in this Task Force to ensure that the new HTML forms and the new XForms Transitional have architectural consistency and that document authors can transition between them"
  413. # [23:14] <John_Boyer> Yes, thanks
  414. # [23:14] <gsnedders> that's all the charter says on the matter
  415. # [23:14] <John_Boyer> yes
  416. # [23:14] <John_Boyer> and what it DOESNT say is "and you can go off and deliver your own separate technology for forms too"
  417. # [23:14] <gsnedders> it doesn't say we can't
  418. # [23:14] <John_Boyer> where does it say you can do WF2 in your charter?
  419. # [23:14] <gavin> it doesn't say a lot of things
  420. # [23:14] <anne> Web Forms 2 is architectural consistent with XForms
  421. # [23:14] <John_Boyer> You're not chartered to
  422. # [23:15] <anne> John_Boyer, it mentions new controls under deliverables
  423. # [23:15] <John_Boyer> ok
  424. # [23:15] <anne> John_Boyer, the charter is quite explicit, I think
  425. # [23:15] <anne> Anyway, you still haven't negated my original point about your argument
  426. # [23:16] <gsnedders> the Forms WG charter (which you chair) says you will work in a task force _jointly with the HTML WG_
  427. # [23:16] <John_Boyer> Still, I joined this conversation to defend the objection, which is that it cites technical issues related to the process-oriented question being voted on
  428. # [23:16] <John_Boyer> Yes
  429. # [23:17] <John_Boyer> Our charter is very clear about developing a new "hybrid" that is heavily influenced by WF2 while also allowing us to map the features onto XForms architecture
  430. # [23:17] <anne> Frankly, at 11PM I hardly care about this
  431. # [23:17] <gsnedders> the forms WG charter also says you will draw on the WF2 work. This means there are two options for startings points: 1. The (X)HTML Web Forms 2, or 2. XForms
  432. # [23:17] <anne> I'd love to see a more concrete proposal than talk about architecture, but I suppose that may be hard to extract out of the XForms WG
  433. # [23:17] <gsnedders> both seem reasonable starting points
  434. # [23:17] <John_Boyer> or 3 is a new document which draw on both
  435. # [23:17] <John_Boyer> that's what I argued we should be doing
  436. # [23:17] <John_Boyer> in the objection
  437. # [23:18] <hober> I assumed that the Forms WG would start with their document, the HTML WG would start with its document, and then the TF would work toward architectural compatibility. So I don't see what the problem with the HTML WG starting with WF2 is.
  438. # [23:18] <anne> I have an identical interpretation of the charter
  439. # [23:18] <John_Boyer> It preempts the whole process that the *joint task force* should go through
  440. # [23:18] <anne> thanks hober
  441. # [23:19] <John_Boyer> forms is a joint project
  442. # [23:19] <anne> No it's not
  443. # [23:19] <anne> forms architecture is
  444. # [23:19] <anne> whatever that means
  445. # [23:19] <John_Boyer> I just told you what it means
  446. # [23:20] <gsnedders> "It is a goal that this work, which will be conducted in a task force jointly with the HTML WG, draw on the Web Forms 2 work (which moves from the Web Application Formats Working Group to the HTML Working Group) and be integrated into the XForms architecture (following design principles such as the separation of presentation from content)."
  447. # [23:20] <John_Boyer> Please stop ignoring the requirement we have from the W3C AC to work together
  448. # [23:20] <gsnedders> Forms WG Charter
  449. # [23:20] <anne> I don't share your interpretation in that case
  450. # [23:20] <John_Boyer> that's the problem
  451. # [23:20] <John_Boyer> and the reason for my objection
  452. # [23:20] <John_Boyer> your chairs are supposed to be making this clear to you
  453. # [23:20] <gsnedders> I have the same interpretation as John_Boyer
  454. # [23:20] <hober> I think the HTML WG's charter is reasonably clear on this point...
  455. # [23:20] <gsnedders> I, however, think WF2 should be used as the starting point.
  456. # [23:21] <John_Boyer> I just want a process that makes it easy to say "whatever is in this document is mappable to an XForms construct" and "if possible, it is equal to or very similar to what WF2 already says"
  457. # [23:22] <anne> lol
  458. # [23:22] <John_Boyer> The onus is different
  459. # [23:22] <gsnedders> and if it is the be equal or similar to WF2, I think WF2 is the logical starting point
  460. # [23:22] <anne> HTML4 + DOM2HTML is the starting point
  461. # [23:22] <anne> WF2 is compatible with that
  462. # [23:22] <anne> XForms, so far, is not
  463. # [23:22] <gsnedders> the problem really is the HTML WG Charter and the Forms WG Charter say different things about how they should work together
  464. # [23:22] <anne> WF2 is compatible with the XForms architecture, as explained in WF2
  465. # [23:23] <hsivonen> John_Boyer: did I read correctly that you don't want this WG to publish Web Forms 2.0 as part of out REC?
  466. # [23:23] <John_Boyer> yes
  467. # [23:23] <hsivonen> John_Boyer: do you have a technical reason why Web Forms 2.0 would be bad to publish as part of our REC?
  468. # [23:24] * anne bye! time to head "home"
  469. # [23:24] <John_Boyer> I think you want to preempt the detailed technical work that needs to be done
  470. # [23:25] <John_Boyer> We are chartered to produce a forms technology that is based on XForms and WF2.
  471. # [23:25] <hsivonen> John_Boyer: no, I am trying to come to an understanding on why you object to Web Forms 2.0.
  472. # [23:26] <hsivonen> John_Boyer: people who have worked on Web Forms 2.0 send feedback on Raggett's XForms Transitional
  473. # [23:26] <hsivonen> John_Boyer: why are you dodging technical debate about Web Forms 2.0?
  474. # [23:26] <John_Boyer> It's a huge document that I don't want to swallow wholesale like a foreign organism without consideration of the features
  475. # [23:26] <gsnedders> John_Boyer: "we" being the forms WG?
  476. # [23:27] <John_Boyer> I prefer positive addition of features to a document rather than throwing in everything, having everyone come to some wrong conclusions, then have to claw back things as we find they have problems
  477. # [23:27] <John_Boyer> People who sent feedback on XF transitional continue not to recognize it's a joint process that is just getting started
  478. # [23:27] <hsivonen> John_Boyer: from the point of view of HTML, XForms is the spec that throws away everything up front
  479. # [23:27] <John_Boyer> so they sent it to public-html without cc to publid-forms
  480. # [23:27] <hober> hsivonen++
  481. # [23:28] <John_Boyer> that's why it's not the starting point either
  482. # [23:28] <hsivonen> John_Boyer: is the requirement to base technology on both WF 2.0 and XForms based on a technical argument?
  483. # [23:28] <gsnedders> anyhow, I've got four exams tomorrow. g'nite.
  484. # [23:28] <John_Boyer> it is a charter requirement
  485. # [23:28] <gsnedders> hsivonen: the Forms WG charter
  486. # [23:28] <John_Boyer> both
  487. # [23:28] <hsivonen> a charter is not a technical argument
  488. # [23:28] <John_Boyer> html and forms
  489. # [23:29] <John_Boyer> asking what document to start with is not a technical question
  490. # [23:29] <John_Boyer> having a vote on that was inappropriate
  491. # [23:29] <John_Boyer> or at least
  492. # [23:29] <hober> I still don't follow how each WG starting with its own document and then working together in the TF toward architectural compatibility is in any way a bad thing.
  493. # [23:29] <gsnedders> John_Boyer: the HTML WG Charter doesn't say it has to be based on both. It says it needs to be artichturally consistent.
  494. # [23:29] <John_Boyer> if it was appropriate
  495. # [23:29] <John_Boyer> then the answers need to be technical in the context of the process question
  496. # [23:29] <John_Boyer> this is a new group that is different than the past
  497. # [23:30] <John_Boyer> so the W3C process rules need some bend in them
  498. # [23:30] <John_Boyer> please don't hide behind them when it is convenient and ignore them when it is convenient
  499. # [23:30] <hsivonen> John_Boyer: Web Forms 2.0 has technical properties. so has XForms. the choice of stating point could, therefore, be made on their technical merit
  500. # [23:30] <hsivonen> John_Boyer: (I'm including network effects here in technical merit--not just pure technology value)
  501. # [23:30] <John_Boyer> and the third option, required by the charters is to "start" with both and create a new form tech
  502. # [23:31] <hsivonen> John_Boyer: I haven't appealed to the W3C process at all here
  503. # [23:31] <John_Boyer> that's what my "objection" actually says
  504. # [23:31] <hober> Right, you guys start with XForms, we start with WF2, and then (after many moons of wrangling) meet in the middle somewhere.
  505. # [23:31] <John_Boyer> That's not a "work together" process option
  506. # [23:32] <John_Boyer> that's a "not working in good faith of the charters" option
  507. # [23:32] <hober> It's exactly a work together option -- work together to acheive architectural compatibility, like our charter requires.
  508. # [23:32] <hsivonen> John_Boyer: no offense, but let's do a third thing in order to avoid choosing from the two sounds like a political argument--not a technical argument
  509. # [23:33] <hober> I think it's precisely in good faith with the HTML WG charter
  510. # [23:33] <hober> I can't speak to the Forms charter as I haven't read it
  511. # [23:33] <John_Boyer> Hmm. How about instead, we work together in good faith to create a forms technology that takes the best of XForms and WF2?
  512. # [23:33] <hober> That's exactly what I'm saying.
  513. # [23:33] <John_Boyer> Right, so the "start" of that document is the empty document
  514. # [23:33] <gavin> I don't see how "work together" precludes using one of two documents as a starting point
  515. # [23:34] <hober> Well, *that* document is the one that describes the architectural compatibility of the XForms WG artifacts and the HTML WG artifcats
  516. # [23:34] <hsivonen> John_Boyer: so far, whenever people who have worked on Web Forms 2.0 have asked the XForms folks, what "best of XForms" they'd like to bring that Web Forms 2.0 lacks, the discussion veers to charters instead of technical features
  517. # [23:34] <hsivonen> John_Boyer: which is why discussion is hard
  518. # [23:34] <hober> And yes, that document is currently empty so far as I know
  519. # [23:35] <John_Boyer> Discussion is hard because the task force is not formed and committed to doing the work.
  520. # [23:35] <John_Boyer> My role is not to single-handedly do all the work
  521. # [23:35] <John_Boyer> for all of you because I can't
  522. # [23:35] <hober> What a strange thing to say.
  523. # [23:35] <John_Boyer> My job is to make sure the right people start getting together and working together and agreeing on how they're going to start
  524. # [23:35] <John_Boyer> and what they're going to produce
  525. # [23:36] <John_Boyer> The push now from both WGs *should* be to get this forms task force started and let them run so the rest of the WGs can focus on the rest of their business
  526. # [23:36] <John_Boyer> that push should go to the chairs
  527. # [23:37] <John_Boyer> and this whole business of preempting what the task force is supposed to do should stop
  528. # [23:37] <John_Boyer> I have to go now. Please send email to list...
  529. # [23:37] <hober> I don't think anyone's trying to preempt what the TF is supposed to do
  530. # [23:37] <John_Boyer> that's exactly what this vote is about.
  531. # [23:37] <hober> No, it's not.
  532. # [23:38] <John_Boyer> The vote asks us to start out by constraining what the TF is supposed to do.
  533. # [23:38] <John_Boyer> What is the purpose of the proposal?
  534. # [23:38] <gavin> Where does it mention any type of constraint?
  535. # [23:38] <John_Boyer> Why are we rushing to some conclusion...
  536. # [23:38] <hober> No, the vote asks the HTML WG to start with WF2
  537. # [23:38] <gavin> It mentions a starting point, and editors, and a name
  538. # [23:38] <hober> How is a start a conclusion?
  539. # [23:38] <John_Boyer> OK, back to the charters.
  540. # [23:38] <John_Boyer> Going in circles here
  541. # [23:39] <hober> I stand by my interpretation of the HTML WG charter.
  542. # [23:39] <John_Boyer> HTML WG is not chartered to go off by itself and build forms tech
  543. # [23:39] <hsivonen> John_Boyer: it doesn't preclude the forms WG finally saying what they find is technically wrong about WF 2.0 so that this WG could fix WF 2.0 accordingly
  544. # [23:39] <gavin> You just claimed that the vote is constraining future work, I think it'd be a good idea to explain that statement before changing the subject again.
  545. # [23:39] <hober> It's chartered to pursue, via the joint TF, architectural compatibility with whatever the Forms WG does.
  546. # [23:40] <John_Boyer> gavin, perhaps the vote is very poorly worded. But it is already obvious that WF2 is supposed to be taken as serious input to the new forms tech (see Forms WG charter). So...
  547. # [23:41] <hober> Why *shouldn't* WF2 be taken as serious input????
  548. # [23:41] <gavin> I think it's quite explicitly stated in the proposal and the vote that it's about a starting point, not a conclusion.
  549. # [23:41] <hsivonen> John_Boyer: are you sayig that WF2 shouldn't be taken as serious input?
  550. # [23:41] <hober> It's the product of years of hard work...
  551. # [23:41] <John_Boyer> Didn't say it shouldn't
  552. # [23:41] <John_Boyer> just finishing the answer now...
  553. # [23:42] <John_Boyer> So, since it is obvious that WF2 is input to the new forms tech, what is the point of the proposal and vote? My interpretation of the question is that the proposer wants to use WF2 as the first version of the spec
  554. # [23:42] <John_Boyer> I am advocating using empty document as the start of the new forms spec
  555. # [23:43] <schepers> I think that a compromise can be made
  556. # [23:43] <hober> Ahh
  557. # [23:43] <hober> I think I see the misunderstanding now
  558. # [23:43] <hober> The vote is about what the HTMLWG's starting point is
  559. # [23:43] * Quits: loic (loic@90.41.2.216) (Quit: hoopa rules)
  560. # [23:43] <schepers> John_Boyer: I agree with you that the work should be done in unison and in good faith
  561. # [23:43] <hober> And you're interpreting that to mean something about the starting poing of the TF
  562. # [23:44] <John_Boyer> There is not supposed to be a difference between starting point for HTML WG and starting point for the task force
  563. # [23:44] <John_Boyer> The HTML WG component of the task force IS the set of people who should be participating in the forms work
  564. # [23:44] <hober> This gets right back to my point re: each WG having their own documents, and the TF ensuring they become & remain architecturally compatible
  565. # [23:44] <John_Boyer> and they should be starting with an empty document
  566. # [23:45] <hsivonen> John_Boyer: do you believe the full HTML WG should not be participating in forms work?
  567. # [23:45] <John_Boyer> That's the point I'm saying you are mistaken about
  568. # [23:45] <John_Boyer> that's not the intent of the charters
  569. # [23:45] <gavin> It might help make things clearer if you posted to the list with the reasons you think starting with a blank document is a better choice than starting with WF2
  570. # [23:45] <schepers> but I also recognize that the vote for using WHATWG as a starting point is subject to heavy revision if necessary... that's not strongly stated in the poll, but it is there
  571. # [23:45] <hober> I think my interpretation of the HTMLWG charter is a fair and reasonable one on this point, but, as I said before, I haven't read the other charter
  572. # [23:46] * Quits: beowulf (carisenda@91.84.50.132) (Ping timeout)
  573. # [23:46] <hober> It's entirely possible that the charters themselves are different on this point.
  574. # [23:46] <hsivonen> John_Boyer: btw, the design goals of this WG imply that we couldn't start with and empty spec. we should start with what is implemented in major browsers anyway
  575. # [23:46] <John_Boyer> That's part of the problem. The HTML charter requires liaison with another WG on a significant component of work, so it is necessary to read that WG charter as part of the interpretation of how the work is to be done
  576. # [23:47] <John_Boyer> That's still empty document, followed by design requirements that say things like "need to support old-style forms"
  577. # [23:47] <John_Boyer> Like, I so really really have to go now though
  578. # [23:47] <John_Boyer> I hope it is at least a bit clearer where my feedback is coming from.
  579. # [23:48] <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make minutes
  580. # [23:48] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/02-html-wg-minutes.html John_Boyer
  581. # [23:49] <hober> I think it is, yes, thanks
  582. # [23:49] <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make minutes
  583. # [23:49] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/02-html-wg-minutes.html John_Boyer
  584. # [23:49] * Parts: John_Boyer (boyerj@32.97.110.142)
  585. # [23:59] * Quits: asbjornu (asbjorn@84.48.116.134) (Ping timeout)
  586. # Session Close: Thu May 03 00:00:00 2007

The end :)