/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-06-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jun 22 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:08] <Philip`> Can I take back the cookie I offered to WebKit developers?
  4. # [00:08] <Philip`> It looks like they didn't actually fix the radial gradient edge cases - it works in Safari 3 on Windows, but still breaks in Safari 2 on Mac
  5. # [00:09] <Philip`> (so I presume it's the CoreGraphics library that changed to be compatible with the canvas spec)
  6. # [00:10] <Philip`> ((I can't test Safari 3 on Mac, since it won't let me install (but won't say why) on the one I have access to, so I don't know what it does there))
  7. # [00:12] <Hixie> ask me in an hour or so and i can look at it for you
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  11. # [00:47] <mjs> Philip`: if it works in Safari 3 on Windows it probably works in Safari 3 in Mac
  12. # [00:48] <mjs> Philip`: our beta did not go back in time and change Safari 2 though
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  14. # [00:52] <Philip`> mjs: Does Safari3-Mac come with a new version of CoreGraphics (assuming that's where the gradient rendering happens), rather than using some shared system library?
  15. # [00:53] <mjs> Philip`: no, but I'm not sure you are correct in your assumption that CoreGraphics is what changed
  16. # [00:56] <Philip`> I was using recent nightly WebKits in both cases, and I didn't think that had much platform-specific graphics code (since it seems to just call CG), so I'd expect that to be the same; and I wouldn't expect Safari itself to affect the rendering
  17. # [00:57] <mjs> ah, if the WebKit nightly fails, it was probably fixed in CG
  18. # [00:57] <mjs> Philip`: I guess you don't have the Leopard beta? Can you email me at mjs@apple.com w/ contact info? I might be able to get you on the seed list for internal builds.
  19. # [00:57] <Philip`> Ah, okay
  20. # [00:58] <Philip`> (I couldn't run the automatic test thingy at all in plain old Safari 2, since it kept failing to load the right bits of code)
  21. # [00:59] <Philip`> I don't have any Mac hardware at all, so I wouldn't be able to do much with a copy of OS X :-(
  22. # [01:01] <Philip`> (I was just testing on one of the public Macs here (university), so I can't really go around changing their OS)
  23. # [01:01] <mjs> ah
  24. # [01:01] <mjs> well, I could get you on the seed list for Safari on Tiger but that probably wouldn't help you much compared to using WebKit nightlies
  25. # [01:01] <Philip`> (Actually, I wouldn't even know where to find the CD drive to change the OS, and it took ten minutes just to find the power button ;-) )
  26. # [01:02] <mjs> heh :-)
  27. # [01:02] <mjs> well at least you can test in Safari on Windows now, though of course there can still be differences in edge case stuff
  28. # [01:05] <Philip`> It's very nice having the Windows version, since I can test things just by switching between windows rather than heading down lots of stairs and through unreliable locked doors :-)
  29. # [01:06] <Philip`> For the stuff I'm looking at, Safari 2 + WebKit nightly seems to be fine for finding the few edge cases
  30. # [01:07] <Philip`> (Apart from the radial gradients, I've only seen two differences so far (4th/5th columns in http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/results.html))
  31. # [01:08] <mjs> we definitely have changed the way we call CG between Safari 2 and Safari 3
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  46. # [02:52] <Philip`> anne: For the differences document, I can see a few attributes in HTML4 (in particular the Strict DTD) and not in HTML5, which don't seem to be mentioned yet
  47. # [02:53] <Philip`> @style @accesskey area@target area@rel area@media @hreflang caption@char caption@charoff colgroup@span img@name object@codebase object@name td@scope
  48. # [02:54] <mjs> Philip`: it's really good that you are looking at it systematically
  49. # [02:54] <Philip`> Also, tabindex should probably go in the "Several attributes from HTML4 now apply to all elements" section, not the "There are also several new global attributes" section
  50. # [02:55] <Philip`> mjs: That's the benefit of laziness - it takes less physical effort to just write a script to parse the DTD and spec and compare them, than to actually read the documents ;-)
  51. # [02:56] <mjs> Philip`: awesome
  52. # [02:56] <mjs> Philip`: will you be doing the same for the frameset and transitional DTDs?
  53. # [02:57] <Philip`> Oh, whoops, my list was wrong - that's not just dropped attributes, it includes added ones too
  54. # [02:57] <Philip`> but I forgot what the list was for when I was half way through writing it down
  55. # [02:57] <Philip`> (e.g. area@media is new, and the differences document only mentions a@media)
  56. # [02:58] <Philip`> mjs: I wasn't sure whether this thing was meant to be describing differences between HTML5 and Strict or Transitional or Frameset, so I just chose the former at first
  57. # [03:00] <mjs> Philip`: I think probably Frameset should be considered the baseline, but for dropped things that were only in Transitional/Frameset or only in Frameset it might be worth mentioning that they were missing in Strict too
  58. # [03:02] * Philip` wonders why his DTD parsing regexps don't work as well as they should
  59. # [03:04] <Philip`> (Oh, because I forgot to write one of them)
  60. # [03:04] <mjs> "oops"
  61. # [03:06] * Philip` isn't looking at the WF2 elements at all, because that doesn't seem as easy to parse
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  65. # [03:28] <Philip`> Unless I made a horrible mistake somewhere (which is not unlikely), http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/htmldiffs.txt shows the differences between HTML4 Transitional and HTML4 Strict and HTML5
  66. # [03:30] <Philip`> (There's no Frameset because I'll get way too many possible intersections between sets, and I'm not sure which ones would be useful to present)
  67. # [03:31] <mjs> Frameset adds only a tiny amount of stuff to Transitional
  68. # [03:32] <mjs> in fact I think it includes transitional by reference
  69. # [03:32] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/frameset.dtd - aha, it doesn't actually define any elements or attributes
  70. # [03:33] <Philip`> so I don't need to do anything, since I don't care about content models
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  72. # [03:37] <Philip`> Hmm, I should drop the "only in HTML4 Strict" because there isn't actually anything that's only in HTML4 Strict
  73. # [03:39] <Philip`> Oh, and I got some of the Transitional bits wrong since I hard-coded entity lists...
  74. # [03:43] <Hixie> frameset does include new elements
  75. # [03:44] <Hixie> but only because those elements are not included in any content models otherwise
  76. # [03:44] <Hixie> so if you're going by the <!ELEMENT> things, you're fine
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  81. # [03:56] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/htmldiffs.txt - now updated to be more concise and hopefully more correct
  82. # [03:58] <MikeSmith> Philip`++
  83. # [03:58] <MikeSmith> very handy
  84. # [03:59] <Philip`> The HTML5 Differences document seems quite inconsistent in how it talks about de-deprecated attributes - it makes it sound like <base target> is new and <a target> was just resurrected, except the Transitional DTD seems to treat both identically
  85. # [04:00] <heycam> can i make html5lib convert an html document into xml?
  86. # [04:01] <Philip`> heycam: Yes, as long as it's not a random HTML document you pulled off the web because then the chances would be good that it'll be unserialisable as XML
  87. # [04:02] <heycam> it's not a random one, but a specific one (the html5 spec)
  88. # [04:03] <Philip`> http://html5.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/spec-splitter/to-xhtml5.py converts it to XHTML5, and you can skip some bits if you just want generic XML
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  90. # [04:04] <heycam> oh there's a .deb for html5lib, handy
  91. # [04:06] <Philip`> It's trivial to install from SVN - just rename the 'src' directory to 'html5lib', then stick it in the directory you're working in, then "import html5lib" should pick it up
  92. # [04:07] <heycam> ok. (just went the apt-get install route tho)
  93. # [04:07] <Philip`> (Maybe that's not the official installation route, but it works for me...)
  94. # [04:09] <heycam> great, that worked beautifully
  95. # [04:11] * Philip` doesn't see why anyone would want the spec as XML when you can just parse it with regular expressions ;-)
  96. # [04:12] <heycam> the pumping lemma, for one ;)
  97. # [04:13] <heycam> i just wanted to extract the idl
  98. # [04:13] <heycam> xslt seemed the easiest way
  99. # [04:17] <Philip`> The pumping lemma is no problem if you're using Perl regexps - the documentation even has an example of how to match correctly parenthesised strings :-)
  100. # [04:18] <heycam> ah well if you can execute arbitrary code within the regex matching you can do whatever you want :)
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  102. # [04:32] <Philip`> Oh, whoops, still had missing bits in htmldiffs.txt... Fixed now
  103. # [04:34] <Philip`> Oh, whoops, it wasn't actually missing important bits and they were just redundant data... Refixed now
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  114. # [07:15] <heycam> minor thing: the IDL for CanvasRenderingContext2D is missing the "in" keyword before the second argument of the createPattern operations
  115. # [07:16] <Hixie> noted, thanks
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  139. # [12:37] <Philip`> Even more minor thing: The HTMLCanvasElement IDL is missing two spaces before the "attribute ... {width,height}" lines, and HTMLDetailsElement is missing lots of spaces before its attribute
  140. # [12:44] <anne> Philip`, hmm, I should probably use your differences doc in some way
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  142. # [12:59] <Philip`> anne: It's probably most useful for just finding the bits you've missed off in your list
  143. # [12:59] <anne> I was thinking about maybe genering a small table that summarizes the differences
  144. # [12:59] <anne> basically without the rationale
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The end :)