/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-09-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Sep 14 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:01] * Quits: kingryan (rking3@208.66.64.47) (Quit: kingryan)
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  14. # [00:34] <tH> heh, the default "G" icon for the firefox search box is stored as a data:image/x-icon;base64, but it's a gif
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  17. # [00:46] <gavin_> tH: they're all x-icon, because our image guesser is good enough that it didn't matter
  18. # [00:48] * Joins: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.186.99)
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  20. # [00:48] <tH> gavin_: yeah, i just stuck a return at the top of the guessing function to see what broke and that was the first thing i noticed :)
  21. # [00:49] <gavin_> ah, ok :)
  22. # [00:49] <DanC> Zakim, what conference?
  23. # [00:49] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, DanC.
  24. # [00:49] * Joins: polin8 (polin8@75.71.72.175)
  25. # [00:50] <DanC> Zakim, what conference is this?
  26. # [00:50] <Zakim> no conference has been selected, DanC
  27. # [00:50] <DanC> Zakim, this will be html
  28. # [00:50] <Zakim> ok, DanC; I see HTML_WG()7:00PM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
  29. # [00:51] <DanC> agenda + Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-09-13T23:00:00Z
  30. # [00:51] * Zakim notes agendum 6 added
  31. # [00:51] * Lachy good morning!
  32. # [00:52] <DanC> agenda + Design Principles, DNRtW and following
  33. # [00:52] * Zakim notes agendum 7 added
  34. # [00:54] <Lachy> Zakim, passcode
  35. # [00:54] <Zakim> I don't understand 'passcode', Lachy
  36. # [00:54] <DanC> agenda + Forms draft status
  37. # [00:54] * Zakim notes agendum 8 added
  38. # [00:54] <DanC> Zakim, passcode?
  39. # [00:54] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), DanC
  40. # [00:54] <Lachy> Zakim, passcode?
  41. # [00:54] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Lachy
  42. # [00:55] * DanC welcomes suggestions for the agenda
  43. # [00:56] <DanC> I think Chris W is chairing today, but I'm not quite sure
  44. # [00:56] <DanC> agenda + US/EU telcon time conflict
  45. # [00:56] * Zakim notes agendum 9 added
  46. # [00:57] <DanC> oops... agenda has leftover stuff
  47. # [00:57] <DanC> Zakim, clear agenda
  48. # [00:57] <Zakim> agenda cleared
  49. # [00:57] <DanC> agenda + Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-09-13T23:00:00Z
  50. # [00:57] * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
  51. # [00:57] <DanC> agenda + Design Principles, DNRtW and following
  52. # [00:57] * Zakim notes agendum 2 added
  53. # [00:57] <Zakim> HTML_WG()7:00PM has now started
  54. # [00:57] <DanC> agenda + Forms draft status
  55. # [00:57] * Zakim notes agendum 3 added
  56. # [00:57] <Zakim> +??P2
  57. # [00:57] <DanC> agenda + US/EU telcon time conflict
  58. # [00:57] * Zakim notes agendum 4 added
  59. # [00:57] <Lachy> Zakim, I am ??P2
  60. # [00:57] <Zakim> +Lachy; got it
  61. # [00:57] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-BOS
  62. # [00:57] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
  63. # [00:57] <Zakim> +DanC
  64. # [00:57] <DanC> RRSAgent, pointer?
  65. # [00:57] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-irc#T22-57-39
  66. # [00:58] * DanC Zakim, who's on the phone?
  67. # [00:58] * Zakim sees on the phone: Lachy, DanC
  68. # [00:58] <MikeSmith> Zakim, please call Mike-Mobile
  69. # [00:58] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
  70. # [00:58] <Zakim> +Mike
  71. # [00:58] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
  72. # [00:58] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  73. # [00:58] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  74. # [00:58] * oedipus oedipus on IRC = Gregory Rosmaita on phone
  75. # [00:59] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make log public
  76. # [00:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, MikeSmith
  77. # [00:59] * oedipus asks MikeSmith if he is scribing?
  78. # [00:59] <DanC> Zakim, agenda?
  79. # [00:59] <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
  80. # [00:59] <Zakim> 1. Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-09-13T23:00:00Z [from DanC]
  81. # [00:59] <Zakim> 2. Design Principles, DNRtW and following [from DanC]
  82. # [00:59] <Zakim> 3. Forms draft status [from DanC]
  83. # [00:59] <Zakim> 4. US/EU telcon time conflict [from DanC]
  84. # [00:59] <MikeSmith> oedipus - well, hoping you might volunteer
  85. # [01:00] <oedipus> i was going to
  86. # [01:00] <oedipus> i will
  87. # [01:00] * Joins: hober (ted@66.75.248.223)
  88. # [01:00] <oedipus> scribenick: oedipus
  89. # [01:00] <DanC> agenda + Nov ftf meeting organization http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07
  90. # [01:00] * Zakim notes agendum 5 added
  91. # [01:00] <oedipus> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
  92. # [01:00] * oedipus i will be on mute so i can hear my screen reader and the phone
  93. # [01:00] <DanC> Zakim, take up item 1
  94. # [01:00] <Zakim> agendum 1. "Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-09-13T23:00:00Z" taken up [from DanC]
  95. # [01:00] <DanC> Regrets: mjs
  96. # [01:01] <oedipus> zakim, mute me
  97. # [01:01] <Zakim> sorry, oedipus, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
  98. # [01:01] <oedipus> zakim, mute Gregory_Rosmaita
  99. # [01:01] <Zakim> Gregory_Rosmaita should now be muted
  100. # [01:01] <MikeSmith> Cba
  101. # [01:01] <MikeSmith> Chair: DanC
  102. # [01:01] * DanC Cba? oh.
  103. # [01:01] * Joins: mjs_ (mjs@17.255.110.23)
  104. # [01:02] * DanC waves to mjs; doesn't expect him to dial in
  105. # [01:02] * Lachy oedipus, to properly associate your IRC nick with your phone, say: Zakim, I am oedipus
  106. # [01:02] <oedipus> just wanted to make clearer verbiage about backwards compatibility especially targetted for i18n, a11y and device independence
  107. # [01:02] <oedipus> zakim, unmute me
  108. # [01:02] <Zakim> sorry, oedipus, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
  109. # [01:02] <oedipus> zakim, unmute Gregory_Rosmaita
  110. # [01:02] <Zakim> Gregory_Rosmaita should no longer be muted
  111. # [01:03] * Quits: polin8 (polin8@75.71.72.175) (Quit: polin8)
  112. # [01:03] <oedipus> zakim, mute Gregory_Rosmaita
  113. # [01:03] <Zakim> Gregory_Rosmaita should now be muted
  114. # [01:03] * Lachy oedipus, correction: to properly associate your IRC nick with your phone, say: Zakim, I am Gregory_Rosmaita
  115. # [01:03] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.203.14.225) (Ping timeout)
  116. # [01:04] <MikeSmith> Meeting: HTML WG phone conference
  117. # [01:04] <DanC> agenda + thoughts on 1st WD of HTML 5 spec
  118. # [01:04] * Zakim notes agendum 6 added
  119. # [01:04] * oedipus notes that with NVDA, an australian freeware open source screen reader for windows, follows australian pronunciation rules by default
  120. # [01:04] <oedipus> Zakim, I am Gregory_Rosmaita
  121. # [01:04] <Zakim> ok, oedipus, I now associate you with Gregory_Rosmaita
  122. # [01:04] * oedipus says thanks to lachy
  123. # [01:05] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
  124. # [01:05] <RRSAgent> ok, MikeSmith; I will not start a new log at midnight
  125. # [01:05] * oedipus MikeS -- thanks for catching that
  126. # [01:05] <DanC> agenda + Issue Tracking
  127. # [01:05] * Zakim notes agendum 7 added
  128. # [01:05] <oedipus> Topic: Agenda Additions?
  129. # [01:06] * MikeSmith contemplates what it might be like to listen to Australian-accented screen reader
  130. # [01:06] <DanC> ACTION: ChrisW discuss XHTML name coordination with XHTML 2 WG in the Hypertext CG [CONTINUES]
  131. # [01:06] * RRSAgent records action 12
  132. # [01:06] <DanC> by way of agenda review, looking at actions from last time
  133. # [01:06] <DanC> ACTION: MikeSmith to write up a summary of changes for last [period of time], description of where changes go [WITHDRWAWN]
  134. # [01:06] * RRSAgent records action 13
  135. # [01:06] * Lachy MikeSmith, an Australian accented screen reader might actually sound like a normal voice! (at least for me!) :-)
  136. # [01:07] <Zakim> -Lachy
  137. # [01:07] * Joins: ChrisWilson (cwilso@24.22.163.64)
  138. # [01:07] <Lachy> oh no, I dropped out :-(
  139. # [01:07] <DanC> on purpose?
  140. # [01:07] * oedipus tells MikeSmith to go to the NVDA project's web site http://www.nvda-project.org//
  141. # [01:07] <Lachy> no, it was some connection error
  142. # [01:07] <oedipus> DanC: 5 minutes into meeting time -- any remaining agenda requests?
  143. # [01:07] <Zakim> +??P2
  144. # [01:08] <Lachy> Zakim, I am ??P2
  145. # [01:08] <Zakim> +Lachy; got it
  146. # [01:08] * DanC waves to ChrisWilson , hopes he's dialing in
  147. # [01:08] <DanC> or did the office move eat you up, Chris?
  148. # [01:08] <ChrisWilson> yes, working on it.
  149. # [01:08] * MikeSmith remembers name of NVDA developer Michael Curran from somewhere
  150. # [01:09] * oedipus says you are correct, sir, that is his name
  151. # [01:09] * oedipus notes that NVDA was recently awarded a grant from the Mozilla Foundation
  152. # [01:09] <DanC> agenda + usability testing video
  153. # [01:09] * Zakim notes agendum 8 added
  154. # [01:10] <Zakim> + +1.206.528.aaaa - is perhaps Chris_Wilson?
  155. # [01:10] <DanC> Zakim, agenda?
  156. # [01:10] <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
  157. # [01:10] <Zakim> 1. Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-09-13T23:00:00Z [from DanC]
  158. # [01:10] <Zakim> 2. Design Principles, DNRtW and following [from DanC]
  159. # [01:10] <Zakim> 3. Forms draft status [from DanC]
  160. # [01:10] <Zakim> 4. US/EU telcon time conflict [from DanC]
  161. # [01:10] <Zakim> 5. Nov ftf meeting organization http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07 [from DanC]
  162. # [01:10] <Zakim> 6. thoughts on 1st WD of HTML 5 spec [from DanC]
  163. # [01:10] <Zakim> 7. Issue Tracking [from DanC]
  164. # [01:10] <Zakim> 8. usability testing video [from DanC]
  165. # [01:10] <ChrisWilson> Zakim, +1.206.528.aaaa is me
  166. # [01:10] <Zakim> sorry, ChrisWilson, I do not recognize a party named '+1.206.528.aaaa'
  167. # [01:11] <DanC> Zakim, aaaa is ChrisWilson
  168. # [01:11] <Zakim> sorry, DanC, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
  169. # [01:11] <oedipus> DC: will chair due to ChrisW's being inconvenienced by his move
  170. # [01:11] * Quits: heycam (cam@203.214.82.108) (Ping timeout)
  171. # [01:11] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  172. # [01:11] <Zakim> agendum 2. "Design Principles, DNRtW and following" taken up [from DanC]
  173. # [01:11] <ChrisWilson> Thanks, Dan
  174. # [01:12] <DanC> progress http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-design-principles/Overview.html 1.8 $ of $Date: 2007-09-13 21:14:39
  175. # [01:12] <DanC> and recent mail from mjs
  176. # [01:12] <oedipus> DC: abstract status intro and first 2 principles
  177. # [01:12] <oedipus> CW: reading mail
  178. # [01:13] <oedipus> DC: happy talked about what is supposed to be produced and what browsers should be expected to eat -- need to repeat -- people not hearing it
  179. # [01:13] <oedipus> DC: pick up on survey input on do not break the web?
  180. # [01:13] <oedipus> CW: yes
  181. # [01:13] <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/dprv/results
  182. # [01:13] <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  183. # [01:13] <Zakim> On the phone I see DanC, Mike, Gregory_Rosmaita (muted), Lachy, Chris_Wilson?
  184. # [01:14] * MikeSmith says yeah I am on IRC...
  185. # [01:14] <oedipus> DC: negative responses to question: "depends upon quality of wheel..." "disagree without comment"
  186. # [01:15] <oedipus> CW: consider specifying that technology i think covers it; open to discussion of solution editable
  187. # [01:15] <oedipus> DC: anyone think of better example
  188. # [01:16] <oedipus> CW: content editable implementations differ, wouldn't automatically accept
  189. # [01:16] <oedipus> DC: would take a lot of screen real estate for a good pertient example
  190. # [01:16] <ChrisWilson> Perhaps we should change the example to not imply that we're automatically accepting contenteditable
  191. # [01:17] <oedipus> DC: "not clear what a widely used..." -- a lot is people basically saying "depends upon wheel"
  192. # [01:17] * DanC q?
  193. # [01:17] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  194. # [01:18] <oedipus> CW: not automatically accept the wheel -- agree to disagree -- general case, if wheel already there, consider that feature over reinventing something new, unless demonstratively better
  195. # [01:18] <oedipus> DC: no actionable feedback in Do Not Reinvent the Wheel
  196. # [01:18] <oedipus> DC: 5 strongly disagree with
  197. # [01:18] <mjs_> my plan for that principle was to retitle it to "Consider Existing Implementations" or something like that
  198. # [01:19] <mjs_> or "Adopt Some De Facto Standards"
  199. # [01:19] <oedipus> DC: comments express a lot of distrust; principles are just principles
  200. # [01:19] * mjs_ is now known as mjs
  201. # [01:19] <mjs> so it's clear that it is a suggestion, not a mandate
  202. # [01:19] <oedipus> DC: [reviews negative answers]
  203. # [01:19] <oedipus> DC: laura suggests dropping it
  204. # [01:20] <Lachy> proposed rewording of pave the cowpaths here http://www.w3.org/mid/46C0A255.7080407@lachy.id.au
  205. # [01:20] <oedipus> CW: earlier recasting of 3.3
  206. # [01:20] <oedipus> DC: good point
  207. # [01:20] <oedipus> CW: doesn't add a whole lot to explicitly have in there
  208. # [01:20] <oedipus> CW: lightning rod -- cowpaths redundant
  209. # [01:20] <Zakim> -Lachy
  210. # [01:20] <oedipus> DC: agree
  211. # [01:20] * Lachy aargh! not again :-(
  212. # [01:21] <ChrisWilson> Dropped again?
  213. # [01:21] * Lachy yes
  214. # [01:21] <mjs> and for "Pave the Cowpaths" something like "Study Authoring Practices"
  215. # [01:21] <Zakim> +??P0
  216. # [01:21] <Lachy> Zakim, I am ??P0
  217. # [01:21] <Zakim> +Lachy; got it
  218. # [01:21] <mjs> people say things like "we shouldn't pave this cowpath", but it's hard to argue that "we shouldn't study this authoring practice"
  219. # [01:21] <DanC> mjs, is Cowpaths redundant w.r.t. "... invent the wheel"?
  220. # [01:22] <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/dprv/results#xenr
  221. # [01:22] <oedipus> DC: evolution not revolution
  222. # [01:22] <mjs> DanC, they are meant to be corresponding principles for existing nonstandard implementation features and existing practices in content
  223. # [01:22] <oedipus> disagrees from Jason White - "this is redundant"
  224. # [01:22] <DanC> [[ I suggest to change the principle to "Promote progressive design" ]]
  225. # [01:22] <oedipus> DC: [reviews disagreements]
  226. # [01:22] <Lachy> cowpaths isn't redundant. cowpaths is more about use cases, the wheel is more about actual implemented features
  227. # [01:22] <MikeSmith> q+ to suggest that some disagree comments amount to splitting of hairs over wording and we are always likely to have a certain number of such disagreements regardless of how we word such design principles
  228. # [01:22] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  229. # [01:22] <oedipus> DC: promote progressive design
  230. # [01:23] <oedipus> DC: "words but not subtext" ?!?!
  231. # [01:23] <ChrisWilson> Side note - I think "and content will live longer" should be struck from the Evolution not Revolution principle. It's tangential
  232. # [01:23] <oedipus> DC: another promote progressive design
  233. # [01:23] <oedipus> DC: solve real problems
  234. # [01:23] <MikeSmith> q?
  235. # [01:23] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  236. # [01:24] <ChrisWilson> DC asks when we can publish this
  237. # [01:24] <oedipus> DC: don't want to continue review; when should we publish this thing? negotiate internally about heartbeat requirements, and don't mind if take a little longer
  238. # [01:24] <oedipus> LH: edit and pass before WG with deadline
  239. # [01:24] <DanC> s/don't want to/a little too tired to/
  240. # [01:24] * oedipus lachy it was hard to hear you so feel free to change
  241. # [01:25] <mjs> I think I can significantly improve it and reduce likely controversy in the next week or so
  242. # [01:25] * Lachy oedipus, you got it close enough
  243. # [01:25] <DanC> DanC: yes, after mjs finishes the pass he's engaged in, I'm inclined to publish
  244. # [01:25] <DanC> mjs, care to give an ETA? something like 2 weeks?
  245. # [01:25] * oedipus oedipus notes the fine distinction made by DanC
  246. # [01:25] <mjs> DanC, I think 2 weeks is a good FPWD target
  247. # [01:25] * oedipus thanks lachy
  248. # [01:25] <DanC> thanks
  249. # [01:26] <oedipus> DC: that's all i need on DP for today
  250. # [01:26] <oedipus> LH: general comment -- IRC rewording these and a number of people disagree -- make specific suggestions, not comments like "like wording but not subtext"
  251. # [01:27] <Lachy> Zakim, who is talking?
  252. # [01:27] <Zakim> Lachy, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
  253. # [01:27] * Lachy Zakim is broken!
  254. # [01:27] <oedipus> LH: real world wording -- cliches or truisms; using them as shorthand -- fundamentally opposed to wording, do so on point and suggest something constructive -- better
  255. # [01:28] * Lachy oedipus that wasn't me talking
  256. # [01:28] * oedipus lachy -- that wasn't you
  257. # [01:28] <DanC> s/LH:/MikeSmith:/
  258. # [01:28] * oedipus thanks
  259. # [01:28] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  260. # [01:28] <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, DanC
  261. # [01:28] * DanC q?
  262. # [01:28] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  263. # [01:28] <DanC> ack MikeSmith
  264. # [01:28] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to suggest that some disagree comments amount to splitting of hairs over wording and we are always likely to have a certain number of such disagreements
  265. # [01:28] <Zakim> ... regardless of how we word such design principles
  266. # [01:28] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  267. # [01:28] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  268. # [01:28] <Zakim> agendum 3. "Forms draft status" taken up [from DanC]
  269. # [01:29] <oedipus> DC: gregory's asked question once or twice -- chris lilley here so can answer
  270. # [01:29] <oedipus> DC: looks in archive for CL's answer to query
  271. # [01:29] <DanC> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2007Sep/0002.html Re: Web Forms 2 - version clarification, please? Chris Lilley
  272. # [01:29] * MikeSmith supports Lachy in his assessment that Zakim has some problems, wonders if Lachy is maybe using voip (in particular, Skype on Mac OSX?9
  273. # [01:29] <oedipus> DC: W3C Working Draft of august 2006
  274. # [01:29] <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
  275. # [01:29] * Lachy MikeSmith, yes I'm using voip
  276. # [01:29] * DanC wrong button, oedipus ?
  277. # [01:30] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
  278. # [01:31] <oedipus> DC: to update TR/webforms some working group needs to publish
  279. # [01:31] <oedipus> DC: this group could, but not right now
  280. # [01:31] <Zakim> -Lachy
  281. # [01:31] <oedipus> GJR: that's why we are tasked to charter and scope
  282. # [01:31] <DanC> http://dev.w3.org/html5/web-forms-2/Overview.html
  283. # [01:32] <oedipus> DC: october 2006 draft could be pushed to TR
  284. # [01:32] <oedipus> DC: differences are trivial
  285. # [01:32] <oedipus> DC: mostly editorial, since august
  286. # [01:32] * Lachy my phone isn't working well today
  287. # [01:32] * Lachy back soon
  288. # [01:32] * MikeSmith Lachy, I've given up on trying to use Skype under Mac OSX with Zakim because of consistent problems
  289. # [01:32] <oedipus> DC: want to go over so that no one left concerned
  290. # [01:32] <oedipus> DC: business of forms task force itself
  291. # [01:33] <oedipus> GJR: maciej on IRC
  292. # [01:33] * Lachy MikeSmith, I'm not using Skype, I'm using another VoIP connection
  293. # [01:33] * Quits: Lachy (chatzilla@203.158.45.153) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.6/2007072518])
  294. # [01:33] <MikeSmith> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/20070913231706.GB4724@mikesmith
  295. # [01:33] <oedipus> GJR: one of the things i thought might speed was to work on a wiki so not lost in deluge of email
  296. # [01:34] * Joins: Lachy (chatzilla@124.170.114.235)
  297. # [01:34] <oedipus> GJR: ChrisL amenable to idea, but don't know upon which wiki to work
  298. # [01:34] <oedipus> DC: move to migrate mediawiki
  299. # [01:35] <Zakim> +??P0
  300. # [01:35] <Lachy> Zakim, I am ??P0
  301. # [01:35] <Zakim> +Lachy; got it
  302. # [01:35] <oedipus> DC: don't think grass going to necessarily greener on different wiki
  303. # [01:35] <oedipus> GJR: forms WG have wiki
  304. # [01:36] <oedipus> DC: ESW wiki fine by me; new wiki straight forward (but not strongly encouraged)
  305. # [01:36] * Quits: hasather (hasather@90.227.221.48) (Client exited)
  306. # [01:36] <oedipus> Lachy: HTML wiki could swallow it -- easy to get lost
  307. # [01:37] <MikeSmith> [I agree that mediawiki would bring a new set of problems; but Rotan Hanrahan (who's quite familiar with both Mediawiki and MoinMoin) is convinced that Mediawiki causes much less pain
  308. # [01:37] <oedipus> DC: system team working on it; 22 wikis and don't want to give mediawiki to one until can get to all
  309. # [01:37] <oedipus> DC: email and try a teleconference in meantime
  310. # [01:37] <Lachy> oedipus, I said: ESW wiki doesn't have talk pages, that causes discussion to get mixed into the articles and difficult to follow and edit
  311. # [01:38] * Hixie points to the whatwg.org wiki, which is media wiki and which everyone here is welcome to use
  312. # [01:38] <oedipus> DC: forms task force not stuck on anything in particular
  313. # [01:38] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  314. # [01:38] <Zakim> agendum 4. "US/EU telcon time conflict" taken up [from DanC]
  315. # [01:38] * oedipus thanks for clarifying lachy -- i agree that discussion pages are ESSENTIAL
  316. # [01:38] <oedipus> Topic: Meeting Times
  317. # [01:38] * Lachy notes that some people have a problem with the whatwg wiki because it's not hosted on W3C
  318. # [01:39] <oedipus> DC: want to move US time 2 hours earlier on alternate
  319. # [01:39] <oedipus> CW: could do at 9
  320. # [01:39] <oedipus> DC: would have to leave for conflict meeting
  321. # [01:39] <ChrisWilson> (thats 1 hour earlier)
  322. # [01:39] <Lachy> I wonder if it would be possible to merge the ESW wiki and whatwg wiki, and then mirror it on both w3 and whatwg.org?
  323. # [01:39] * Joins: heycam (cam@130.194.72.84)
  324. # [01:39] <oedipus> DC: not available to chair on 27 september
  325. # [01:39] <oedipus> DC: ChrisW can you chair on that date
  326. # [01:40] <oedipus> CW: going to be on the road -- in fact, conflicts with keynote speech
  327. # [01:40] <oedipus> DC: could chair the day after -- 21 september -- a friday
  328. # [01:40] <oedipus> GJR: what time
  329. # [01:40] <DanC> Fri Sep 21 at 1pET?
  330. # [01:40] * oedipus says ok
  331. # [01:40] * MikeSmith reckons he can be there
  332. # [01:41] <oedipus> 1700 UTC
  333. # [01:41] <Hixie> Lachy: that sounds like a lot of pain for little gain, but from the whatwg side i'm happy for you to do that if you think it's worth it
  334. # [01:41] <oedipus> EDT is UTC -4
  335. # [01:41] * oedipus oedipus thanks hixie
  336. # [01:42] <oedipus> DC: reschedule or cancel meeting on 27 september -- could reschedule but would have to be a week later
  337. # [01:42] <mjs> Lachy, Hixie: mirroring could be in the form of a CNAME
  338. # [01:42] <DanC> PROPOSED: to meet 21 Sep Fri 1p Boston time, DanC to chair
  339. # [01:42] <mjs> (if w3c is ok with that)
  340. # [01:42] <DanC> I'll confirm by email
  341. # [01:42] <oedipus> CW: first week of october
  342. # [01:42] <DanC> PROPOSED: to cancel 27 Sep
  343. # [01:42] <Hixie> mjs: i'm sure they'd want different branding too
  344. # [01:42] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  345. # [01:42] <Zakim> agendum 5. "Nov ftf meeting organization http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07" taken up [from DanC]
  346. # [01:43] <oedipus> TOPIC: November F2F Organization
  347. # [01:43] <oedipus> DC: found middle ground between conferences -- announced that, so everyone should know
  348. # [01:44] <oedipus> DC: on wednesday, plenary happening - have draft agenda -- there is a member tech plenary list -- suggest that whomever can get there 8 november for plenary; we convene after lunch on 9 september
  349. # [01:44] <oedipus> DC: 17 registrants and a dozen or so requesting invited expert status
  350. # [01:44] <oedipus> DC: broad representation
  351. # [01:44] <Hixie> oh while we're talking abouth the plenary, i should announce in the interests of transparency and full disclosure that google will be funding james graham's attendance, and will probably be funding two other people though those details have yet to be finalised.
  352. # [01:44] <DanC> noted, hixie
  353. # [01:44] <oedipus> DC: continue to meet through lunch saturday morning
  354. # [01:45] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  355. # [01:45] <Zakim> agendum 6. "thoughts on 1st WD of HTML 5 spec" taken up [from DanC]
  356. # [01:45] <oedipus> DC: anything else about F2F?
  357. # [01:45] <oedipus> TOPIC: Thoughts on 1st WD of HTML5 spec
  358. # [01:45] <oedipus> DC: detailed reviews coming in regularly; haven't done my audit of reviews in a while
  359. # [01:45] * Joins: mjs_ (mjs@17.203.14.225)
  360. # [01:46] <oedipus> ChrisW: microsoft review still delayed - not before beginning of next week
  361. # [01:46] <oedipus> DC: how about before telecon
  362. # [01:46] <oedipus> CW: on eve of sounds like good plan
  363. # [01:46] <oedipus> DC: HTML5 spec going out at same time or after DP?
  364. # [01:46] <oedipus> CW: after
  365. # [01:46] <oedipus> GJR: after
  366. # [01:46] * DanC q?
  367. # [01:46] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  368. # [01:46] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  369. # [01:46] <Zakim> agendum 7. "Issue Tracking" taken up [from DanC]
  370. # [01:46] <oedipus> Topic: Issue Tracking
  371. # [01:47] <oedipus> DC: Sam Ruby still not ready to jump in with both feet
  372. # [01:47] <oedipus> DC: could use someone in this role; W3C still searching for permenant staff contact
  373. # [01:48] <oedipus> DC: thoughts on triage team?
  374. # [01:48] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.255.110.23) (Ping timeout)
  375. # [01:48] <oedipus> CW: ???? (couldn't hear)
  376. # [01:48] <oedipus> DC: you want to keep the ball
  377. # [01:48] <oedipus> CW: yes
  378. # [01:48] <oedipus> DC: continue that action item, then
  379. # [01:48] <DanC> ACTION: ChrisW to start setting up a team to triage issues [CONTINUES]
  380. # [01:48] * RRSAgent records action 14
  381. # [01:48] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  382. # [01:48] <Zakim> agendum 8. "usability testing video" taken up [from DanC]
  383. # [01:49] <oedipus> TOPIC: Usability Testing Video
  384. # [01:49] <oedipus> DC: merits attention of entire WG
  385. # [01:49] <oedipus> DC: [searches for pointer]
  386. # [01:49] <oedipus> Lachy: Joshue who wrote
  387. # [01:49] <Lachy> http://www.w3.org/mid/46DD6F27.6070608@cfit.ie
  388. # [01:49] <oedipus> GJR: there is a wiki page with links
  389. # [01:50] <oedipus> GJR: sliced into easily digestable portions
  390. # [01:50] <Lachy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Sep/0103.html
  391. # [01:50] <DanC> From: Joshue O Connor <joshue.oconnor@cfit.ie>
  392. # [01:50] <DanC> Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 15:43:51 +0100
  393. # [01:50] <DanC> with links to videos such as http://www.cfit.ie/html5_video/final/Table1.wmv
  394. # [01:50] <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/AccessibilityTesting
  395. # [01:51] <oedipus> DC: common user task -- can you find price of OJ on web site, look at how many succed and how many fail
  396. # [01:51] <Hixie> those videos are very interesting, i studied the header and longdesc ones in detail. has he updated the summary one yet? it used to be a dupe of the headers video.
  397. # [01:51] <oedipus> DC: one video allowing person to editorialize -- did i look at wrong parts?
  398. # [01:51] <oedipus> Lachy: rest similar
  399. # [01:51] <oedipus> DC: useful, but not what i was expecting
  400. # [01:51] <oedipus> GJR: guidelines for user testing?
  401. # [01:52] <oedipus> DC: worth celebrating in any case
  402. # [01:52] <Hixie> yeah you have to ignore joshue's comments as he editorialises :-) but the actual use parts are quite interesting
  403. # [01:52] <oedipus> GJR: should we set some?
  404. # [01:52] * Quits: aroben (adamroben@17.203.15.154) (Quit: aroben)
  405. # [01:52] <oedipus> DC: cool that hixie really studying videos
  406. # [01:52] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  407. # [01:52] <Zakim> I do not see any non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, DanC
  408. # [01:52] * Hixie would highly recommend not setting the bar high, we want to encourage input regardless of quality really, since otherwise we might see no input at all
  409. # [01:52] <DanC> good point, hixie.
  410. # [01:52] <oedipus> DC: end of prepared agenda
  411. # [01:53] <DanC> yes, some videos is a whole lot better than no videos
  412. # [01:53] * Hixie also studies usability studies internally at google and will happily study usability videos from anyone else if they send them his way
  413. # [01:53] * oedipus hixie rrsagent doesn't record /me
  414. # [01:53] <Hixie> i love studying them in detail
  415. # [01:53] <Hixie> it's a goldmine of helpful guidance
  416. # [01:53] * oedipus hixie if you want the comments on record, reinsert them
  417. # [01:53] <DanC> * Hixie would highly recommend not setting the bar high, we want to encourage input regardless of quality really, since otherwise we might see no input at all
  418. # [01:54] * DanC ^ for RRSAgent
  419. # [01:54] <DanC> ADJOURN.
  420. # [01:54] * oedipus thanks DanC - should i push to web now?
  421. # [01:54] <Zakim> -Lachy
  422. # [01:54] <Zakim> -Chris_Wilson?
  423. # [01:54] * Quits: ChrisWilson (cwilso@24.22.163.64) (Quit: ChrisWilson)
  424. # [01:54] * DanC yes, please and mail a pointer, if not full text, to the WG, oedipus
  425. # [01:54] <Hixie> oedipus: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ logs the /mes, iirc
  426. # [01:54] <oedipus> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
  427. # [01:54] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, oedipus
  428. # [01:54] * oedipus ok DanC
  429. # [01:54] <oedipus> rrsagent, create minutes
  430. # [01:54] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  431. # [01:54] <Zakim> -DanC
  432. # [01:54] <oedipus> rrsagent, format minutes
  433. # [01:54] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  434. # [01:55] <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
  435. # [01:55] <oedipus> rrsagent, publish minutes
  436. # [01:55] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  437. # [01:55] * DanC thinks this mixed-mode IRC/telcon style works fine
  438. # [01:55] * oedipus should i dismiss zakim?
  439. # [01:55] * DanC if you like
  440. # [01:55] <DanC> Zakim, attendees?
  441. # [01:55] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, DanC.
  442. # [01:55] <oedipus> zakim, please part
  443. # [01:55] <Zakim> leaving. As of this point the attendees were Lachy, DanC, Mike, Gregory_Rosmaita, +1.206.528.aaaa
  444. # [01:55] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  445. # [01:55] <DanC> Zakim, list participants
  446. # [01:55] <DanC> ok.
  447. # [01:56] <DanC> wierd... it didn't get ChrisW
  448. # [01:56] <oedipus> strange
  449. # [01:56] <MikeSmith> yeah, dunno why that
  450. # [01:56] <oedipus> it's been acting strangely all week
  451. # [01:56] <MikeSmith> Zakim going through adolescent rebellion?
  452. # [01:57] <oedipus> check for zits -- that's the dead give-away
  453. # [01:57] <MikeSmith> heh
  454. # [01:57] <heycam> RRSAgent, list participants
  455. # [01:57] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'list participants', heycam. Try /msg RRSAgent help
  456. # [01:58] <DanC> thanks, MikeSmith , for mailing out the agenda
  457. # [01:58] <MikeSmith> np
  458. # [01:59] <Hixie> oh sweet it looks like joshue updated the summary="" video
  459. # [01:59] * Hixie downloads and watches
  460. # [02:06] * Quits: tH (Rob@87.102.74.242) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508])
  461. # [02:11] * oedipus says to DanC and MikeS that he doesn't understand why the participants weren't logged -- i thought zakim had taken attendence when ChrisW arrived
  462. # [02:12] * oedipus and that rrsagent had been told -- i didn't do a participants+ at the end, which i guess i should have done
  463. # [02:13] * oedipus apologizes and promises to flog himself with a wet noodle after he cooks pasta for dinner
  464. # [02:14] * Joins: robburns (robburns@98.193.22.194)
  465. # [02:16] * oedipus waves at robburns
  466. # [02:17] <robburns> waves back
  467. # [02:17] <oedipus> the telecon just ended about 10-15 minutes ago
  468. # [02:19] <oedipus> minutes: http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-minutes.html
  469. # [02:19] <oedipus> IRC Log: http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-irc
  470. # [02:20] <robburns> oedipus: thanks, I thought I might have missed it. I've been away from the internet for a while so I wasn't even sure what time this one was being held
  471. # [02:22] <oedipus> next meeting is scheduled for 1pm EDT / 1700 UTC Friday, 21 September 2007
  472. # [02:23] <oedipus> PROPOSED: cancel 27 September call - reschedule possibly for first week of October
  473. # [02:23] <robburns> OK, thanks
  474. # [02:24] <robburns> I thought this meeting might have been a 1700 meeting, because the last one was 2300, wasn't it?
  475. # [02:24] <oedipus> no problem -- helps to know in advance -- the october call would be the 7pm EDT/4pm PDT/
  476. # [02:25] <MikeSmith> oedipus - no biggy about Present list; I've added it now and trimmed the minutes and checked back in
  477. # [02:25] <oedipus> the meetings are alternating between western and eastern hemisphere time slots; DanC does the american afternoon, while ChrisW chairs the alternate meeting
  478. # [02:25] <oedipus> thanks MikeS - i don't have "permission(s)" to work that kinda magic in w3c space
  479. # [02:26] * oedipus notes that he's still going to have pasta for dinner -- eventually
  480. # [02:26] * MikeSmith wanders off for a while
  481. # [02:27] <oedipus> robburns: so one meeting is at 1700 UTC while the other is at 2300 UTC
  482. # [02:30] <robburns> ooedipus: thanks for the info. bon appetit.
  483. # [02:30] <oedipus> robburns: thanks - i AM off to cook that damn pasta, and take it from me, a listened-to pot of water doesn't boil any faster than a looked-at pot...
  484. # [02:32] <robburns> OEDIPUS: LOL
  485. # [02:41] * Quits: hober (ted@66.75.248.223) (Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs))
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  488. # [03:08] <Lachy> hmm. in the summary attribute video, it's interesting how the bind user says he wouldn't miss it if HTML5 didn't include it, since he never uses it in practice, but then still says it might be useful without really explaining why
  489. # [03:08] * Quits: billmason (billmason@69.30.57.156) (Connection reset by peer)
  490. # [03:18] <oedipus> lachy - the user probably doesn't miss it due to lack of support for it; it is extremely useful than the alternative -- a simple X by Y (X equaling rows and y equaling columns) statement, which is what is presented to the user in the absence of a summary
  491. # [03:20] <oedipus> there is a world of difference when one knows not merely how many rows and columns a table consists of, but what they are representative of -- i tried to explain/demonstrate this in the example at: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ExplicitAssociationPatterns#head-27604d3fc1ffdb981a52a4144d36777d598016a2
  492. # [03:21] * oedipus would like to follow up with lachy, but has to tend to his pasta
  493. # [03:21] <Lachy> oedipus, in practice, do you personally have the summary attribute read out when provided? And when provided, do you usually find it has a useful value?
  494. # [03:21] <oedipus> yes, it is automatically read
  495. # [03:22] <oedipus> i find it extremely useful when there aren't explicit bindings such as those provided by headers/id
  496. # [03:22] <oedipus> it is also commonly used in a "list of tables on this page" dialog
  497. # [03:22] <oedipus> otherwise, an AT will substitute the dimensions of a table
  498. # [03:23] <Philip> Does it hurt much when people use it non-usefully, like summary="Video Games, video games, video game reviews, video game rentals, video game, video game rental", or is it easy to ignore that kind of thing?
  499. # [03:23] <oedipus> it at least tells me what is contained in an area of the document i'm about to traverse
  500. # [03:24] * Joins: matt (matt@128.30.52.30)
  501. # [03:24] <oedipus> or to make a decision to skip or navigate the table
  502. # [03:24] <oedipus> one learns to ignore spacer dot gif
  503. # [03:25] <Philip> (That was from http://www.gamefly.com/ps2/ where it's used three times on layout tables - I guess they're aiming for some SEO benefit)
  504. # [03:25] <oedipus> and other annoyances -- the AT should have a setting to suppress such renderings or tailor them to the individual user's liking/need
  505. # [03:25] <Lachy> I wonder if it would be possible for it to read out more useful information when summary has been omitted, such as the section heading or title attribute, or something else that would be more useful than the dimensions?
  506. # [03:26] <oedipus> an AT will try and guess whether a table is a layout table or a data table, and one CAN instruct one's AT to avoid what it deems as a layout table
  507. # [03:26] <oedipus> lachy: that's where aria markup enters the picture
  508. # [03:27] * oedipus sorry -- i'll be back as soon as i can -- i can hear the pot boiling over
  509. # [03:33] <Lachy> I don't have much faith in the success of WAI ARIA. From what I've seen of it, it seems to be poorly engineered and overly complex for authors
  510. # [03:35] <Lachy> for instance, the first example in the aria-role spec is using a span to implement a tri-state checkbox. I'd rather extend <input type=checkbox> to support tri-states than hack around it with non-semantic spans
  511. # [03:36] <Lachy> http://www.w3.org/TR/aria-role/#Example
  512. # [03:38] <Lachy> Another example uses divs and CSS to build a collapsible tree view list http://www.w3.org/TR/aria-role/#Exampletree - HTML5 solves that use case with datagrid
  513. # [03:42] <Hixie> holy jeesus that's complex markup
  514. # [03:42] <Hixie> i wonder what happens if one of those "wairole:treeitem"s was a "wairole:grid"
  515. # [03:42] <Hixie> is that defined?
  516. # [03:51] <Lachy> Mark P just wrote this http://blog.whatwg.org/the-longdesc-lottery
  517. # [03:51] <Lachy> oedipus, I added a preview button for the blog comments (I know you complained about that before)
  518. # [03:52] * Joins: deredoce (deredoce@68.47.34.79)
  519. # [03:55] <Philip> Lachy: But HTML5 solves that use case by putting it into a decade-long specification project and requiring every UA to implement new features, which isn't helpful when somebody wants some other type of control and wants it working within the month
  520. # [03:59] * Quits: matt (matt@128.30.52.30) (Quit: matt)
  521. # [04:01] <heycam> blog.whatwg.org should give the author of entries
  522. # [04:02] <Lachy> heycam, I just fixed that.
  523. # [04:02] <Lachy> it's another bug as a result of the wordpress upgrade
  524. # [04:02] <Lachy> I accidentially replaced all the templates
  525. # [04:04] <heycam> cool
  526. # [04:04] * Quits: deredoce (deredoce@68.47.34.79) (Ping timeout)
  527. # [04:06] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Less talk, more pimp walk.)
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  529. # [04:13] * Quits: gavin (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  530. # [04:14] <Lachy> does anyone know how, in wordpress, to check if an author has a URL, and if so, link their name to it? It seems that the_author_url() function immediate prints it, rather than return a useful, testable value
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  535. # [04:53] <Lachy> never mind, found what I was looking for http://codex.wordpress.org/Template_Tags/the_author_url
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  545. # [05:54] <Lachy> wow, ARIA Role is worse than I thought. It's a band-aid solution written from an ivory tower, seemingly without seriously considering any authoring issues.
  546. # [05:55] <Lachy> (I'm fairly sure I'll get flamed for saying that, but oh well)
  547. # [05:59] <mjs_> Lachy: can you name the accessibility experts you consulted before coming to that conclusion?
  548. # [05:59] * mjs_ is now known as mjs
  549. # [06:00] <mjs> actually, I do think some sort of tagging system for accessibility roles is useful, if only because web applications will want to get ahead of what browsers support natively
  550. # [06:00] <mjs> but I think ARIA Role is not a very good approach to doing that
  551. # [06:00] <Lachy> I reached my conclusion from reading the spec
  552. # [06:01] <mjs> Lachy: I was being needlessly sarcastic there
  553. # [06:02] <Lachy> I know, but there are IRC log readers who might want the answer anyway
  554. # [06:03] <mjs> I agree with you, based also on reading the spec
  555. # [06:03] * Hixie mumbles something about having been saying that for years
  556. # [06:03] <mjs> although I think the intent is partly that JavaScript toolkit libraries will do all the heavy lifting, so the scope of authoring issues would be limited
  557. # [06:04] <Lachy> BTW, wairole:grid is also addressed by <datagrid>
  558. # [06:04] <Hixie> as far as i can tell, there isn't anything in wairole that isn't catered for by html5
  559. # [06:05] <Hixie> (i used the wairole spec as a checklist a year ago or so and made sure)
  560. # [06:05] <mjs> tristate checkboxes?
  561. # [06:05] <Lachy> unfortunately, we can't rely on javascript toolkits (or any other tools) saving authors from the complexity
  562. # [06:06] <Hixie> oh right, tristate checkboxes were on the list for wf2 but got bumped to wf3 because i couldn't work out how to submit them neatly
  563. # [06:06] <Lachy> Hixie, are they somewhere in the whatwg.org/issues/ list?
  564. # [06:06] <mjs> how do normal checkboxes submit?
  565. # [06:07] <Lachy> when checked, they submit name=value. when unchecked, they submit nothing
  566. # [06:07] <Hixie> lachy: they're probably in the big comment at the bottom of wf2's source
  567. # [06:07] <Hixie> what lachy said
  568. # [06:07] <mjs> the third (indeterminate/mixed) state of tristate checkboxes is mainly useful as an initial state when a group has mixed state and can be toggled on and off as a whole
  569. # [06:07] <Hixie> there's an easy solution (have a second name for the mixed state) but i don't really like that
  570. # [06:08] <Hixie> mjs: yeah but you still have to distinguish between left-in-initial-state and unchecked vs checked
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  572. # [06:08] <Lachy> I'm not sure mixed state checkboxes should be submitted, since they're usually representative of a group of other checkboxes, and so their state can be determined by examining the state of the others
  573. # [06:08] <mjs> mixed-state checkboxes mainly seem useful for cases where check/uncheck will be handled by script
  574. # [06:09] <Hixie> possible
  575. # [06:09] <mjs> what (if anything) they submit can't just be left unspecified
  576. # [06:09] <Lachy> indeed. AFAIK, there is no way for a user to explicity set an individual checkbox to a mixed state in any UI I've seen.
  577. # [06:09] <mjs> but it's possible that not submitting (just like an unchecked one) might be workable
  578. # [06:10] <mjs> maybe not though
  579. # [06:10] <Hixie> well we'll see
  580. # [06:10] <Hixie> wf3 is a far future thing
  581. # [06:10] <Hixie> and demand for tristate is low
  582. # [06:11] <Lachy> the other alternative would be to introduce an attribute <input type=checkbox name=x value="foo" mixed="bar">, where x=foo is submitted in the normal case and x=bar for the mixed case
  583. # [06:11] <mjs> I'm probably going to suggest form features for HTML5 that aren't part of WF2 at some point
  584. # [06:12] <mjs> but I don't know if tristate would be high on the list
  585. # [06:12] <Lachy> mjs, are you or someone else from apple ever going to get around to providing details about placeholder=""? I recall that you once said someone would do so
  586. # [06:12] <mjs> Lachy: I will remind the relevant person when she gets back from vacation
  587. # [06:13] <Lachy> ok
  588. # [06:13] <mjs> but I'm not sure there's a whole lot to say about it
  589. # [06:13] <mjs> <input type="search"> is probably something that will actually need revision to be spec-worthy, and explication of current behavior
  590. # [06:13] <Lachy> I think most of placeholder is fairly obvious, but in case there's some not-so-obvious detail about it
  591. # [06:14] <Hixie> Lachy: yeah i suggested that easy solution above :-)
  592. # [06:14] <mjs> I don't think there is anything non-obvious about placeholder
  593. # [06:15] <Hixie> placeholder will be done before wf3 i'm sure
  594. # [06:15] <Lachy> one thing about tristate checkbox that would need to be addressed is that typically, when checking one, the states of the related group of checkboxes is usually toggled too.
  595. # [06:16] <mjs> it might be possible to come up with a nice solution for that in the context of datagrid at least
  596. # [06:18] <mjs> I think there's definitely controls that would be more useful than some of the half-dozen different date controls in WF2
  597. # [06:19] <mjs> but I will save it until the current forms stuff is integrated into the main spec
  598. # [06:19] <mjs> (presumably after the Forms Task Force finishes deciding what it is supposed to do and then doing it)
  599. # [06:20] <Lachy> mjs, is the forms task force ever going to get started?
  600. # [06:21] <mjs> Lachy: we're waiting on the sixth person to give a sign of life
  601. # [06:21] <mjs> Lachy: there was some rumor that he might be on vacation
  602. # [06:21] <mjs> though I must admit so far it is the slowest-acting six-person group I have ever seen
  603. # [06:22] <Lachy> hmm. there are 10 emails pending user approval for public-forms-tf. I can't see what they are though, I don't have permission for that. Maybe they're trying to send but can't?
  604. # [06:22] <mjs> I would assume that shouldn't happen for people who are on the list
  605. # [06:24] <Lachy> yeah, unless "pending user approval" means that they haven't yet agreed to the W3C's email archive policy, which needs to be done before posts will go through on any list
  606. # [06:27] <mjs> Sebastian has been an XForms WG member for some time (and I think maybe also XHTML2 WG)
  607. # [06:27] <mjs> I'd be surprised if he hasn't sent any email
  608. # [06:29] <Lachy> yeah, he has, I just checked, so that can't be the reason
  609. # [06:47] * olivier can confirm
  610. # [06:47] <olivier> the 10 mails "pending approval" are all spam
  611. # [06:47] <olivier> Dept.of Offshore Mortgage Services !
  612. # [06:48] <olivier> Dearest Be Loved One
  613. # [06:49] <Lachy> thanks olivier
  614. # [06:49] <olivier> etc etc
  615. # [06:49] <olivier> np
  616. # [06:49] <Lachy> do they get automatically purged after a while?
  617. # [06:50] <olivier> yes, I think so
  618. # [06:50] <olivier> I think the people have a week following the initial challenge
  619. # [06:53] <olivier> the assumption being that if they send mail, they're around and aren't going to disappear for a week moments after sending their first mail to a list
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  653. # [13:35] <anne> DanC, the reason the Forms TF is not moving is described here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2007Sep/0003.html
  654. # [13:38] <Lachy> anne, it might be a good idea to just get started without him for now or maybe ask the Forms WG to replace him
  655. # [13:39] <Lachy> it's been nearly 3 weeks since the group began, that's enough waiting
  656. # [13:40] <anne> we asked Septemeber 9, it's probably good to give it some more time
  657. # [13:41] <Lachy> mjs asked for introductions on Aug 22
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  667. # [15:37] <Lachy> robburns, why are you choosing to blatently ignore information about actual user testing of longdesc that shows how it doesn't work in practice and users don't really benefit from it even when provided?
  668. # [15:38] <Lachy> I'm referring to your response to Eric Eggert/Tomas Caspers
  669. # [15:38] <robburns> Lachy: I'm not ignoring any information. I just don't think the conclusion is based on any of the information provided. It must be based on something else, but that's not stated in the email.
  670. # [15:39] <Lachy> you don't think the fact that *users don't even benefit from it* isn't evidence against it?
  671. # [15:40] <Lachy> I don't see how you can reach any other conclusion, nor why you continue to hold on to faulty assumptions
  672. # [15:42] <robburns> Lachy: yes if you start from the assumption that "users don't even benefit from it" I can see how you get to the conclusion that we should eliminate it. However, I can't imagine how users wouldn't benefit from it in circumstances the require a long description.
  673. # [15:43] <Lachy> I'm not starting with the assumption that they don't. I'm just not starting with the assumption that they do
  674. # [15:43] <robburns> If you're going to start from the assumption that "users don't benefit from it" and then say ergo we can eliminate the attribute, you might as well just start from the assumption "that we should eliminate the attribute"
  675. # [15:44] <robburns> Lachy: then how do you draw the conclusion that we have any evidence against retaining longdesc?
  676. # [15:45] <robburns> if you're not making that assumption I mean
  677. # [15:46] <Lachy> 1. authors rarely use it. 2. when they do, they often use it wrongly or redundantly (e.g. <a href=""> to the same page). 3. evidence from user testing (including both Joshue's video and Eric's email) suggests that real screen reader users don't make use of it, even when provided.
  678. # [15:46] * Joins: anne (annevk@81.68.67.12)
  679. # [15:47] <Lachy> what exactly is your case for longdesc?
  680. # [15:48] <Lachy> from what I've read, it's basically that we should including it with the hope that UAs will implement it better, authors will use it better and users will start to benefit from it then.
  681. # [15:48] <Lachy> that approach is just absurd
  682. # [15:48] <robburns> 1. it doesn't matter how often authors use it. 2. it isn't redundant if it's required for browser fallback that don't support it. 3. you cannot interpret user testing to generalize that no user for any site don't make use of it (those users didn't for those sites)
  683. # [15:49] <Lachy> see, that's what I mean about *blatently ignoring evidence*!
  684. # [15:49] <robburns> UAs implementing it better is absurd? Or authors using it better?
  685. # [15:49] <robburns> which evidence am I ignoring?
  686. # [15:50] <Lachy> no, the assumption that UAs can or will implement it better and that users will start using it better is absurd. It's theoretically possible for either of those to happen, but there's no evidence to suggest that it will
  687. # [15:51] <Lachy> you're ignoring evidence of author usage, UA support and the lack of usability. That's pretty much everything!
  688. # [15:51] <robburns> Lachy: there's no more evidence to suggest browsers will implement any of the HTML5 spec. We have to take that part on faith.
  689. # [15:52] <Lachy> ah, no, there's plenty of evidence that UAs will implement many new features
  690. # [15:52] <robburns> No, I acknowledge all of that evidence. I just don't see how you can leap to the conclusions you leap to. There's an enormous disconnect between that evidence and what you conclude.
  691. # [15:52] <Lachy> list some for which you think there is no evidence?
  692. # [15:53] <Lachy> robburns, there's no counter evidence. I'm still waiting for you to present yours
  693. # [15:53] <robburns> Lachy: present my what?
  694. # [15:53] <Lachy> your evidence in support of longdesc
  695. # [15:56] <robburns> How about this evidence: 1 blind people cannot see (stipulated). 2. images that convey critical content or the prime content for a webpage may require a lengthy and semantically rich description for those who cannot see the image 3) img is a void element and cannot contain such lengthy and semantically rich description. 4) longdesc is an attribute that takes an URL that can point to a semantically rich description of an image.
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  697. # [15:57] <Lachy> the first 3 are potential reasons to supply a long description, which I don't disagree with. Concluding that longdesc="" is the answer is what I disagree with. Longdesc is just one possible solution which has failed in reality
  698. # [15:57] <anne> <object>
  699. # [15:58] <robburns> OK, but does that mean we're going to remove <img> from the document conformance criteria?
  700. # [15:58] <anne> why? seems to work fine
  701. # [15:58] <robburns> I agree that longdesc is just one possible solution.
  702. # [15:59] <robburns> anne: why not add several elements and require that they all work fine. We could have 1) <picture>, 2. <still>, 3) <photograph>, 4)...
  703. # [16:00] <anne> Philip, see pm
  704. # [16:00] <anne> robburns, I'm not sure how that's useful
  705. # [16:00] <anne> <img> works fine for authors today and they're used it and it's well implemented; why require the world to change here?
  706. # [16:00] <robburns> anne: that was my point
  707. # [16:01] <anne> well, longdesc is not used by the world and since it was invented has been sparsely implemented
  708. # [16:01] <robburns> anne: the point is that you put forward <object> to fix the short-comings of <img>. If <object> fixes those short-coming, then why do we need <img> too. Once <object> works finer than <img> let's drop-kick <img>
  709. # [16:01] <anne> and when it's used it's mostly abused it seems
  710. # [16:02] <anne> <object> is more typing and doesn't work good in some browsers
  711. # [16:02] <robburns> we don't have much evidence of its abuse.
  712. # [16:02] <anne> we have lots of statistics and people who have examined such pages
  713. # [16:02] <Lachy> because <img> is going to continue to be used and there's no reason to prevent that. Longdesc, on the other hand, doesn't get used and so it doesn't matter what happens to it.
  714. # [16:02] <anne> wikipedia is a prime example
  715. # [16:02] <anne> but it seems that you're not really willing to accept anything of that, so I'm not sure why I'm debating this with you...
  716. # [16:03] <robburns> anne: no wikipedia is not a prime example: at least not one to make your case.
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  719. # [16:03] <robburns> wikipedia has a small bug in that its longdesc doesn't point to the document fragment on the page where the long description occurs.
  720. # [16:04] <anne> lol
  721. # [16:04] <anne> you're just not being realistic here
  722. # [16:04] <robburns> but it's not a bug that the longdesc attribute points to the page with the long description and that there's also a link to bring authors to where they can edit that image, its long description, and its other metadata
  723. # [16:05] <robburns> anne: I have no idea what you mean by that.
  724. # [16:05] <robburns> how am I not being realistic?
  725. # [16:05] <Lachy> real long descriptions generally don't occur on wikipedia image pages, it's generally just copyright information, file history and other metadata
  726. # [16:06] <Lachy> but in wikipedia, longdesc is completely redundant given the <a href=""> pointing to the same page, which is equally usefull for everyone
  727. # [16:07] <robburns> Lachy: but wikipedia does provide a filed for long descriptions of images. And its not redundant because it provides different information to the UA. It just so happens for the wiki it needs to provide a mechanism for visistors to edit the information.
  728. # [16:07] <robburns> ... visitors to edit the information also
  729. # [16:08] <robburns> However, other than missing the fragment identifier I'd say MediaWiki is right on with their longdesc support.
  730. # [16:08] <Lachy> wikipedia wouldn't lose anything at all by removing longdesc and setting alt="" on images in articles. <a href="">, possibly with rel=longdesc, would be just as effective for end users and more effective in practice
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  732. # [16:09] <anne> MarkB!
  733. # [16:09] <MarkB> ho!
  734. # [16:10] <anne> MarkB, you think the _technical_ architecture group should suggest UI enhancements for browsers? :)
  735. # [16:10] <robburns> Lachy: that could almost work for mediawiki. However, that approach would not work for any sight that wanted to provide a long description in a different location than the image link. So even for MediaWiki it would mean they couldn't fix the before mentioned bug of adding a fragment identifier.
  736. # [16:10] <MarkB> just as an example, yah, i think it might help
  737. # [16:11] <anne> hmm, for them to realize this is not realistic?
  738. # [16:11] <MarkB> lol
  739. # [16:11] <MarkB> no, for the browser vendors to realize that we're not asking you to halt-and-catch-fire 8-)
  740. # [16:14] <Lachy> robburns, sites can provide an additional link adjacent to the image. e.g. <figure><img><legnd>Caption... (<a href="..." rel=longdesc>read long description</a>)</legend></fieldset>
  741. # [16:15] <robburns> Lachy: sure they could, but why should they have to. Authors want more control over their document s than that. They want to indicate a link when they want a link and they want to indicate longdesc when they want longdesc. (with no link)
  742. # [16:15] <Lachy> it's what many sites do in practice anyway
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  744. # [16:17] <Lachy> if they don't want the link visible for sighted users, they could always hide it with stylesheets. But in many cases, the long description is useful to more than just those with ATs that expose it
  745. # [16:17] <robburns> Lachy: well those authors would be free to continue doing that even if longdesc worked correctly
  746. # [16:18] <Lachy> right. Which authors use longdesc in a useful way without providing a redundant link? I've seen very few sites that ever do that (only found 1 so far)
  747. # [16:21] <robburns> Well I've seen many examples. I think if it's a genuine longdesc — and it's not a wiki — then most authors would not want to provide a redundant link. I't s content not relevant for those who can fully consume the graphic directly.
  748. # [16:27] <Lachy> robburns, there are, for example, low vision users who may not use a screen reader or other assistive, but may still benefit from the long description because they can't see image in great detail. But they could read the long description by magnifying the text
  749. # [16:28] <robburns> Lachy: yes I understand that use case. That's why I think we should require longdesc support for all UAs (without using a standard hyperlink)
  750. # [16:29] <Lachy> well, in practice, that hasn't happened and you haven't presented any evidence that it will. As I said on the blog, if you can get UAs to implement it in a useful way and it can be demonstrated that it helps improve its usage, it could be included later
  751. # [16:30] <Lachy> but until then, I don't think its worth considering longdesc="" as a viable solution. I think its dead.
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  753. # [16:36] <Philip> Lachy: Why couldn't they just zoom in on the image?
  754. # [16:37] <Lachy> they could, but it might be harder to comprehend the image if they can only see a small portion of it at a time.
  755. # [16:38] <Philip> I suppose colour blindness is a case where it can be useful to have a description of some images
  756. # [16:39] <Philip> (since you can't really use any technology to convert the image into an equivalent graphical form)
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  771. # [18:00] * tH_ is now known as tH
  772. # [18:03] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@86.139.120.102) (Quit: Don't touch /dev/null…)
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  786. # [19:59] * Quits: gavin (gavin@63.245.208.169) (Client exited)
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  804. # [23:04] * Quits: aroben_ (adamroben@17.255.101.93) (Client exited)
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  807. # [23:09] * Quits: aroben_ (adamroben@17.255.101.93) (Client exited)
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  816. # [23:35] * Quits: tH (Rob@87.102.74.242) (Ping timeout)
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  818. # [23:43] * Quits: matt (matt@128.30.52.30) (Quit: matt)
  819. # [23:53] * Quits: timbl (timbl@128.30.5.224) (Quit: timbl)
  820. # Session Close: Sat Sep 15 00:00:01 2007

The end :)