/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-09-14 / end

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# Session Start: Fri Sep 14 00:00:00 2007
# Session Ident: #html-wg
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# [00:34] <tH> heh, the default "G" icon for the firefox search box is stored as a data:image/x-icon;base64, but it's a gif
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# [00:46] <gavin_> tH: they're all x-icon, because our image guesser is good enough that it didn't matter
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# [00:48] <tH> gavin_: yeah, i just stuck a return at the top of the guessing function to see what broke and that was the first thing i noticed :)
# [00:49] <gavin_> ah, ok :)
# [00:49] <DanC> Zakim, what conference?
# [00:49] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, DanC.
# [00:49] * Joins: polin8 (polin8@75.71.72.175)
# [00:50] <DanC> Zakim, what conference is this?
# [00:50] <Zakim> no conference has been selected, DanC
# [00:50] <DanC> Zakim, this will be html
# [00:50] <Zakim> ok, DanC; I see HTML_WG()7:00PM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
# [00:51] <DanC> agenda + Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-09-13T23:00:00Z
# [00:51] * Zakim notes agendum 6 added
# [00:51] * Lachy good morning!
# [00:52] <DanC> agenda + Design Principles, DNRtW and following
# [00:52] * Zakim notes agendum 7 added
# [00:54] <Lachy> Zakim, passcode
# [00:54] <Zakim> I don't understand 'passcode', Lachy
# [00:54] <DanC> agenda + Forms draft status
# [00:54] * Zakim notes agendum 8 added
# [00:54] <DanC> Zakim, passcode?
# [00:54] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), DanC
# [00:54] <Lachy> Zakim, passcode?
# [00:54] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Lachy
# [00:55] * DanC welcomes suggestions for the agenda
# [00:56] <DanC> I think Chris W is chairing today, but I'm not quite sure
# [00:56] <DanC> agenda + US/EU telcon time conflict
# [00:56] * Zakim notes agendum 9 added
# [00:57] <DanC> oops... agenda has leftover stuff
# [00:57] <DanC> Zakim, clear agenda
# [00:57] <Zakim> agenda cleared
# [00:57] <DanC> agenda + Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-09-13T23:00:00Z
# [00:57] * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
# [00:57] <DanC> agenda + Design Principles, DNRtW and following
# [00:57] * Zakim notes agendum 2 added
# [00:57] <Zakim> HTML_WG()7:00PM has now started
# [00:57] <DanC> agenda + Forms draft status
# [00:57] * Zakim notes agendum 3 added
# [00:57] <Zakim> +??P2
# [00:57] <DanC> agenda + US/EU telcon time conflict
# [00:57] * Zakim notes agendum 4 added
# [00:57] <Lachy> Zakim, I am ??P2
# [00:57] <Zakim> +Lachy; got it
# [00:57] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-BOS
# [00:57] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
# [00:57] <Zakim> +DanC
# [00:57] <DanC> RRSAgent, pointer?
# [00:57] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-irc#T22-57-39
# [00:58] * DanC Zakim, who's on the phone?
# [00:58] * Zakim sees on the phone: Lachy, DanC
# [00:58] <MikeSmith> Zakim, please call Mike-Mobile
# [00:58] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
# [00:58] <Zakim> +Mike
# [00:58] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
# [00:58] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
# [00:58] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [00:58] * oedipus oedipus on IRC = Gregory Rosmaita on phone
# [00:59] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make log public
# [00:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, MikeSmith
# [00:59] * oedipus asks MikeSmith if he is scribing?
# [00:59] <DanC> Zakim, agenda?
# [00:59] <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
# [00:59] <Zakim> 1. Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-09-13T23:00:00Z [from DanC]
# [00:59] <Zakim> 2. Design Principles, DNRtW and following [from DanC]
# [00:59] <Zakim> 3. Forms draft status [from DanC]
# [00:59] <Zakim> 4. US/EU telcon time conflict [from DanC]
# [00:59] <MikeSmith> oedipus - well, hoping you might volunteer
# [01:00] <oedipus> i was going to
# [01:00] <oedipus> i will
# [01:00] * Joins: hober (ted@66.75.248.223)
# [01:00] <oedipus> scribenick: oedipus
# [01:00] <DanC> agenda + Nov ftf meeting organization http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07
# [01:00] * Zakim notes agendum 5 added
# [01:00] <oedipus> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
# [01:00] * oedipus i will be on mute so i can hear my screen reader and the phone
# [01:00] <DanC> Zakim, take up item 1
# [01:00] <Zakim> agendum 1. "Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-09-13T23:00:00Z" taken up [from DanC]
# [01:00] <DanC> Regrets: mjs
# [01:01] <oedipus> zakim, mute me
# [01:01] <Zakim> sorry, oedipus, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
# [01:01] <oedipus> zakim, mute Gregory_Rosmaita
# [01:01] <Zakim> Gregory_Rosmaita should now be muted
# [01:01] <MikeSmith> Cba
# [01:01] <MikeSmith> Chair: DanC
# [01:01] * DanC Cba? oh.
# [01:01] * Joins: mjs_ (mjs@17.255.110.23)
# [01:02] * DanC waves to mjs; doesn't expect him to dial in
# [01:02] * Lachy oedipus, to properly associate your IRC nick with your phone, say: Zakim, I am oedipus
# [01:02] <oedipus> just wanted to make clearer verbiage about backwards compatibility especially targetted for i18n, a11y and device independence
# [01:02] <oedipus> zakim, unmute me
# [01:02] <Zakim> sorry, oedipus, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
# [01:02] <oedipus> zakim, unmute Gregory_Rosmaita
# [01:02] <Zakim> Gregory_Rosmaita should no longer be muted
# [01:03] * Quits: polin8 (polin8@75.71.72.175) (Quit: polin8)
# [01:03] <oedipus> zakim, mute Gregory_Rosmaita
# [01:03] <Zakim> Gregory_Rosmaita should now be muted
# [01:03] * Lachy oedipus, correction: to properly associate your IRC nick with your phone, say: Zakim, I am Gregory_Rosmaita
# [01:03] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.203.14.225) (Ping timeout)
# [01:04] <MikeSmith> Meeting: HTML WG phone conference
# [01:04] <DanC> agenda + thoughts on 1st WD of HTML 5 spec
# [01:04] * Zakim notes agendum 6 added
# [01:04] * oedipus notes that with NVDA, an australian freeware open source screen reader for windows, follows australian pronunciation rules by default
# [01:04] <oedipus> Zakim, I am Gregory_Rosmaita
# [01:04] <Zakim> ok, oedipus, I now associate you with Gregory_Rosmaita
# [01:04] * oedipus says thanks to lachy
# [01:05] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
# [01:05] <RRSAgent> ok, MikeSmith; I will not start a new log at midnight
# [01:05] * oedipus MikeS -- thanks for catching that
# [01:05] <DanC> agenda + Issue Tracking
# [01:05] * Zakim notes agendum 7 added
# [01:05] <oedipus> Topic: Agenda Additions?
# [01:06] * MikeSmith contemplates what it might be like to listen to Australian-accented screen reader
# [01:06] <DanC> ACTION: ChrisW discuss XHTML name coordination with XHTML 2 WG in the Hypertext CG [CONTINUES]
# [01:06] * RRSAgent records action 12
# [01:06] <DanC> by way of agenda review, looking at actions from last time
# [01:06] <DanC> ACTION: MikeSmith to write up a summary of changes for last [period of time], description of where changes go [WITHDRWAWN]
# [01:06] * RRSAgent records action 13
# [01:06] * Lachy MikeSmith, an Australian accented screen reader might actually sound like a normal voice! (at least for me!) :-)
# [01:07] <Zakim> -Lachy
# [01:07] * Joins: ChrisWilson (cwilso@24.22.163.64)
# [01:07] <Lachy> oh no, I dropped out :-(
# [01:07] <DanC> on purpose?
# [01:07] * oedipus tells MikeSmith to go to the NVDA project's web site http://www.nvda-project.org//
# [01:07] <Lachy> no, it was some connection error
# [01:07] <oedipus> DanC: 5 minutes into meeting time -- any remaining agenda requests?
# [01:07] <Zakim> +??P2
# [01:08] <Lachy> Zakim, I am ??P2
# [01:08] <Zakim> +Lachy; got it
# [01:08] * DanC waves to ChrisWilson , hopes he's dialing in
# [01:08] <DanC> or did the office move eat you up, Chris?
# [01:08] <ChrisWilson> yes, working on it.
# [01:08] * MikeSmith remembers name of NVDA developer Michael Curran from somewhere
# [01:09] * oedipus says you are correct, sir, that is his name
# [01:09] * oedipus notes that NVDA was recently awarded a grant from the Mozilla Foundation
# [01:09] <DanC> agenda + usability testing video
# [01:09] * Zakim notes agendum 8 added
# [01:10] <Zakim> + +1.206.528.aaaa - is perhaps Chris_Wilson?
# [01:10] <DanC> Zakim, agenda?
# [01:10] <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
# [01:10] <Zakim> 1. Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-09-13T23:00:00Z [from DanC]
# [01:10] <Zakim> 2. Design Principles, DNRtW and following [from DanC]
# [01:10] <Zakim> 3. Forms draft status [from DanC]
# [01:10] <Zakim> 4. US/EU telcon time conflict [from DanC]
# [01:10] <Zakim> 5. Nov ftf meeting organization http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07 [from DanC]
# [01:10] <Zakim> 6. thoughts on 1st WD of HTML 5 spec [from DanC]
# [01:10] <Zakim> 7. Issue Tracking [from DanC]
# [01:10] <Zakim> 8. usability testing video [from DanC]
# [01:10] <ChrisWilson> Zakim, +1.206.528.aaaa is me
# [01:10] <Zakim> sorry, ChrisWilson, I do not recognize a party named '+1.206.528.aaaa'
# [01:11] <DanC> Zakim, aaaa is ChrisWilson
# [01:11] <Zakim> sorry, DanC, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
# [01:11] <oedipus> DC: will chair due to ChrisW's being inconvenienced by his move
# [01:11] * Quits: heycam (cam@203.214.82.108) (Ping timeout)
# [01:11] <DanC> Zakim, next item
# [01:11] <Zakim> agendum 2. "Design Principles, DNRtW and following" taken up [from DanC]
# [01:11] <ChrisWilson> Thanks, Dan
# [01:12] <DanC> progress http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-design-principles/Overview.html 1.8 $ of $Date: 2007-09-13 21:14:39
# [01:12] <DanC> and recent mail from mjs
# [01:12] <oedipus> DC: abstract status intro and first 2 principles
# [01:12] <oedipus> CW: reading mail
# [01:13] <oedipus> DC: happy talked about what is supposed to be produced and what browsers should be expected to eat -- need to repeat -- people not hearing it
# [01:13] <oedipus> DC: pick up on survey input on do not break the web?
# [01:13] <oedipus> CW: yes
# [01:13] <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/dprv/results
# [01:13] <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
# [01:13] <Zakim> On the phone I see DanC, Mike, Gregory_Rosmaita (muted), Lachy, Chris_Wilson?
# [01:14] * MikeSmith says yeah I am on IRC...
# [01:14] <oedipus> DC: negative responses to question: "depends upon quality of wheel..." "disagree without comment"
# [01:15] <oedipus> CW: consider specifying that technology i think covers it; open to discussion of solution editable
# [01:15] <oedipus> DC: anyone think of better example
# [01:16] <oedipus> CW: content editable implementations differ, wouldn't automatically accept
# [01:16] <oedipus> DC: would take a lot of screen real estate for a good pertient example
# [01:16] <ChrisWilson> Perhaps we should change the example to not imply that we're automatically accepting contenteditable
# [01:17] <oedipus> DC: "not clear what a widely used..." -- a lot is people basically saying "depends upon wheel"
# [01:17] * DanC q?
# [01:17] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [01:18] <oedipus> CW: not automatically accept the wheel -- agree to disagree -- general case, if wheel already there, consider that feature over reinventing something new, unless demonstratively better
# [01:18] <oedipus> DC: no actionable feedback in Do Not Reinvent the Wheel
# [01:18] <oedipus> DC: 5 strongly disagree with
# [01:18] <mjs_> my plan for that principle was to retitle it to "Consider Existing Implementations" or something like that
# [01:19] <mjs_> or "Adopt Some De Facto Standards"
# [01:19] <oedipus> DC: comments express a lot of distrust; principles are just principles
# [01:19] * mjs_ is now known as mjs
# [01:19] <mjs> so it's clear that it is a suggestion, not a mandate
# [01:19] <oedipus> DC: [reviews negative answers]
# [01:19] <oedipus> DC: laura suggests dropping it
# [01:20] <Lachy> proposed rewording of pave the cowpaths here http://www.w3.org/mid/46C0A255.7080407@lachy.id.au
# [01:20] <oedipus> CW: earlier recasting of 3.3
# [01:20] <oedipus> DC: good point
# [01:20] <oedipus> CW: doesn't add a whole lot to explicitly have in there
# [01:20] <oedipus> CW: lightning rod -- cowpaths redundant
# [01:20] <Zakim> -Lachy
# [01:20] <oedipus> DC: agree
# [01:20] * Lachy aargh! not again :-(
# [01:21] <ChrisWilson> Dropped again?
# [01:21] * Lachy yes
# [01:21] <mjs> and for "Pave the Cowpaths" something like "Study Authoring Practices"
# [01:21] <Zakim> +??P0
# [01:21] <Lachy> Zakim, I am ??P0
# [01:21] <Zakim> +Lachy; got it
# [01:21] <mjs> people say things like "we shouldn't pave this cowpath", but it's hard to argue that "we shouldn't study this authoring practice"
# [01:21] <DanC> mjs, is Cowpaths redundant w.r.t. "... invent the wheel"?
# [01:22] <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/dprv/results#xenr
# [01:22] <oedipus> DC: evolution not revolution
# [01:22] <mjs> DanC, they are meant to be corresponding principles for existing nonstandard implementation features and existing practices in content
# [01:22] <oedipus> disagrees from Jason White - "this is redundant"
# [01:22] <DanC> [[ I suggest to change the principle to "Promote progressive design" ]]
# [01:22] <oedipus> DC: [reviews disagreements]
# [01:22] <Lachy> cowpaths isn't redundant. cowpaths is more about use cases, the wheel is more about actual implemented features
# [01:22] <MikeSmith> q+ to suggest that some disagree comments amount to splitting of hairs over wording and we are always likely to have a certain number of such disagreements regardless of how we word such design principles
# [01:22] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [01:22] <oedipus> DC: promote progressive design
# [01:23] <oedipus> DC: "words but not subtext" ?!?!
# [01:23] <ChrisWilson> Side note - I think "and content will live longer" should be struck from the Evolution not Revolution principle. It's tangential
# [01:23] <oedipus> DC: another promote progressive design
# [01:23] <oedipus> DC: solve real problems
# [01:23] <MikeSmith> q?
# [01:23] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [01:24] <ChrisWilson> DC asks when we can publish this
# [01:24] <oedipus> DC: don't want to continue review; when should we publish this thing? negotiate internally about heartbeat requirements, and don't mind if take a little longer
# [01:24] <oedipus> LH: edit and pass before WG with deadline
# [01:24] <DanC> s/don't want to/a little too tired to/
# [01:24] * oedipus lachy it was hard to hear you so feel free to change
# [01:25] <mjs> I think I can significantly improve it and reduce likely controversy in the next week or so
# [01:25] * Lachy oedipus, you got it close enough
# [01:25] <DanC> DanC: yes, after mjs finishes the pass he's engaged in, I'm inclined to publish
# [01:25] <DanC> mjs, care to give an ETA? something like 2 weeks?
# [01:25] * oedipus oedipus notes the fine distinction made by DanC
# [01:25] <mjs> DanC, I think 2 weeks is a good FPWD target
# [01:25] * oedipus thanks lachy
# [01:25] <DanC> thanks
# [01:26] <oedipus> DC: that's all i need on DP for today
# [01:26] <oedipus> LH: general comment -- IRC rewording these and a number of people disagree -- make specific suggestions, not comments like "like wording but not subtext"
# [01:27] <Lachy> Zakim, who is talking?
# [01:27] <Zakim> Lachy, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
# [01:27] * Lachy Zakim is broken!
# [01:27] <oedipus> LH: real world wording -- cliches or truisms; using them as shorthand -- fundamentally opposed to wording, do so on point and suggest something constructive -- better
# [01:28] * Lachy oedipus that wasn't me talking
# [01:28] * oedipus lachy -- that wasn't you
# [01:28] <DanC> s/LH:/MikeSmith:/
# [01:28] * oedipus thanks
# [01:28] <DanC> Zakim, next item
# [01:28] <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, DanC
# [01:28] * DanC q?
# [01:28] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [01:28] <DanC> ack MikeSmith
# [01:28] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to suggest that some disagree comments amount to splitting of hairs over wording and we are always likely to have a certain number of such disagreements
# [01:28] <Zakim> ... regardless of how we word such design principles
# [01:28] <DanC> Zakim, next item
# [01:28] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [01:28] <Zakim> agendum 3. "Forms draft status" taken up [from DanC]
# [01:29] <oedipus> DC: gregory's asked question once or twice -- chris lilley here so can answer
# [01:29] <oedipus> DC: looks in archive for CL's answer to query
# [01:29] <DanC> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2007Sep/0002.html Re: Web Forms 2 - version clarification, please? Chris Lilley
# [01:29] * MikeSmith supports Lachy in his assessment that Zakim has some problems, wonders if Lachy is maybe using voip (in particular, Skype on Mac OSX?9
# [01:29] <oedipus> DC: W3C Working Draft of august 2006
# [01:29] <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
# [01:29] * Lachy MikeSmith, yes I'm using voip
# [01:29] * DanC wrong button, oedipus ?
# [01:30] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
# [01:31] <oedipus> DC: to update TR/webforms some working group needs to publish
# [01:31] <oedipus> DC: this group could, but not right now
# [01:31] <Zakim> -Lachy
# [01:31] <oedipus> GJR: that's why we are tasked to charter and scope
# [01:31] <DanC> http://dev.w3.org/html5/web-forms-2/Overview.html
# [01:32] <oedipus> DC: october 2006 draft could be pushed to TR
# [01:32] <oedipus> DC: differences are trivial
# [01:32] <oedipus> DC: mostly editorial, since august
# [01:32] * Lachy my phone isn't working well today
# [01:32] * Lachy back soon
# [01:32] * MikeSmith Lachy, I've given up on trying to use Skype under Mac OSX with Zakim because of consistent problems
# [01:32] <oedipus> DC: want to go over so that no one left concerned
# [01:32] <oedipus> DC: business of forms task force itself
# [01:33] <oedipus> GJR: maciej on IRC
# [01:33] * Lachy MikeSmith, I'm not using Skype, I'm using another VoIP connection
# [01:33] * Quits: Lachy (chatzilla@203.158.45.153) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.6/2007072518])
# [01:33] <MikeSmith> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/20070913231706.GB4724@mikesmith
# [01:33] <oedipus> GJR: one of the things i thought might speed was to work on a wiki so not lost in deluge of email
# [01:34] * Joins: Lachy (chatzilla@124.170.114.235)
# [01:34] <oedipus> GJR: ChrisL amenable to idea, but don't know upon which wiki to work
# [01:34] <oedipus> DC: move to migrate mediawiki
# [01:35] <Zakim> +??P0
# [01:35] <Lachy> Zakim, I am ??P0
# [01:35] <Zakim> +Lachy; got it
# [01:35] <oedipus> DC: don't think grass going to necessarily greener on different wiki
# [01:35] <oedipus> GJR: forms WG have wiki
# [01:36] <oedipus> DC: ESW wiki fine by me; new wiki straight forward (but not strongly encouraged)
# [01:36] * Quits: hasather (hasather@90.227.221.48) (Client exited)
# [01:36] <oedipus> Lachy: HTML wiki could swallow it -- easy to get lost
# [01:37] <MikeSmith> [I agree that mediawiki would bring a new set of problems; but Rotan Hanrahan (who's quite familiar with both Mediawiki and MoinMoin) is convinced that Mediawiki causes much less pain
# [01:37] <oedipus> DC: system team working on it; 22 wikis and don't want to give mediawiki to one until can get to all
# [01:37] <oedipus> DC: email and try a teleconference in meantime
# [01:37] <Lachy> oedipus, I said: ESW wiki doesn't have talk pages, that causes discussion to get mixed into the articles and difficult to follow and edit
# [01:38] * Hixie points to the whatwg.org wiki, which is media wiki and which everyone here is welcome to use
# [01:38] <oedipus> DC: forms task force not stuck on anything in particular
# [01:38] <DanC> Zakim, next item
# [01:38] <Zakim> agendum 4. "US/EU telcon time conflict" taken up [from DanC]
# [01:38] * oedipus thanks for clarifying lachy -- i agree that discussion pages are ESSENTIAL
# [01:38] <oedipus> Topic: Meeting Times
# [01:38] * Lachy notes that some people have a problem with the whatwg wiki because it's not hosted on W3C
# [01:39] <oedipus> DC: want to move US time 2 hours earlier on alternate
# [01:39] <oedipus> CW: could do at 9
# [01:39] <oedipus> DC: would have to leave for conflict meeting
# [01:39] <ChrisWilson> (thats 1 hour earlier)
# [01:39] <Lachy> I wonder if it would be possible to merge the ESW wiki and whatwg wiki, and then mirror it on both w3 and whatwg.org?
# [01:39] * Joins: heycam (cam@130.194.72.84)
# [01:39] <oedipus> DC: not available to chair on 27 september
# [01:39] <oedipus> DC: ChrisW can you chair on that date
# [01:40] <oedipus> CW: going to be on the road -- in fact, conflicts with keynote speech
# [01:40] <oedipus> DC: could chair the day after -- 21 september -- a friday
# [01:40] <oedipus> GJR: what time
# [01:40] <DanC> Fri Sep 21 at 1pET?
# [01:40] * oedipus says ok
# [01:40] * MikeSmith reckons he can be there
# [01:41] <oedipus> 1700 UTC
# [01:41] <Hixie> Lachy: that sounds like a lot of pain for little gain, but from the whatwg side i'm happy for you to do that if you think it's worth it
# [01:41] <oedipus> EDT is UTC -4
# [01:41] * oedipus oedipus thanks hixie
# [01:42] <oedipus> DC: reschedule or cancel meeting on 27 september -- could reschedule but would have to be a week later
# [01:42] <mjs> Lachy, Hixie: mirroring could be in the form of a CNAME
# [01:42] <DanC> PROPOSED: to meet 21 Sep Fri 1p Boston time, DanC to chair
# [01:42] <mjs> (if w3c is ok with that)
# [01:42] <DanC> I'll confirm by email
# [01:42] <oedipus> CW: first week of october
# [01:42] <DanC> PROPOSED: to cancel 27 Sep
# [01:42] <Hixie> mjs: i'm sure they'd want different branding too
# [01:42] <DanC> Zakim, next item
# [01:42] <Zakim> agendum 5. "Nov ftf meeting organization http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07" taken up [from DanC]
# [01:43] <oedipus> TOPIC: November F2F Organization
# [01:43] <oedipus> DC: found middle ground between conferences -- announced that, so everyone should know
# [01:44] <oedipus> DC: on wednesday, plenary happening - have draft agenda -- there is a member tech plenary list -- suggest that whomever can get there 8 november for plenary; we convene after lunch on 9 september
# [01:44] <oedipus> DC: 17 registrants and a dozen or so requesting invited expert status
# [01:44] <oedipus> DC: broad representation
# [01:44] <Hixie> oh while we're talking abouth the plenary, i should announce in the interests of transparency and full disclosure that google will be funding james graham's attendance, and will probably be funding two other people though those details have yet to be finalised.
# [01:44] <DanC> noted, hixie
# [01:44] <oedipus> DC: continue to meet through lunch saturday morning
# [01:45] <DanC> Zakim, next item
# [01:45] <Zakim> agendum 6. "thoughts on 1st WD of HTML 5 spec" taken up [from DanC]
# [01:45] <oedipus> DC: anything else about F2F?
# [01:45] <oedipus> TOPIC: Thoughts on 1st WD of HTML5 spec
# [01:45] <oedipus> DC: detailed reviews coming in regularly; haven't done my audit of reviews in a while
# [01:45] * Joins: mjs_ (mjs@17.203.14.225)
# [01:46] <oedipus> ChrisW: microsoft review still delayed - not before beginning of next week
# [01:46] <oedipus> DC: how about before telecon
# [01:46] <oedipus> CW: on eve of sounds like good plan
# [01:46] <oedipus> DC: HTML5 spec going out at same time or after DP?
# [01:46] <oedipus> CW: after
# [01:46] <oedipus> GJR: after
# [01:46] * DanC q?
# [01:46] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [01:46] <DanC> Zakim, next item
# [01:46] <Zakim> agendum 7. "Issue Tracking" taken up [from DanC]
# [01:46] <oedipus> Topic: Issue Tracking
# [01:47] <oedipus> DC: Sam Ruby still not ready to jump in with both feet
# [01:47] <oedipus> DC: could use someone in this role; W3C still searching for permenant staff contact
# [01:48] <oedipus> DC: thoughts on triage team?
# [01:48] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.255.110.23) (Ping timeout)
# [01:48] <oedipus> CW: ???? (couldn't hear)
# [01:48] <oedipus> DC: you want to keep the ball
# [01:48] <oedipus> CW: yes
# [01:48] <oedipus> DC: continue that action item, then
# [01:48] <DanC> ACTION: ChrisW to start setting up a team to triage issues [CONTINUES]
# [01:48] * RRSAgent records action 14
# [01:48] <DanC> Zakim, next item
# [01:48] <Zakim> agendum 8. "usability testing video" taken up [from DanC]
# [01:49] <oedipus> TOPIC: Usability Testing Video
# [01:49] <oedipus> DC: merits attention of entire WG
# [01:49] <oedipus> DC: [searches for pointer]
# [01:49] <oedipus> Lachy: Joshue who wrote
# [01:49] <Lachy> http://www.w3.org/mid/46DD6F27.6070608@cfit.ie
# [01:49] <oedipus> GJR: there is a wiki page with links
# [01:50] <oedipus> GJR: sliced into easily digestable portions
# [01:50] <Lachy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Sep/0103.html
# [01:50] <DanC> From: Joshue O Connor <joshue.oconnor@cfit.ie>
# [01:50] <DanC> Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 15:43:51 +0100
# [01:50] <DanC> with links to videos such as http://www.cfit.ie/html5_video/final/Table1.wmv
# [01:50] <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/AccessibilityTesting
# [01:51] <oedipus> DC: common user task -- can you find price of OJ on web site, look at how many succed and how many fail
# [01:51] <Hixie> those videos are very interesting, i studied the header and longdesc ones in detail. has he updated the summary one yet? it used to be a dupe of the headers video.
# [01:51] <oedipus> DC: one video allowing person to editorialize -- did i look at wrong parts?
# [01:51] <oedipus> Lachy: rest similar
# [01:51] <oedipus> DC: useful, but not what i was expecting
# [01:51] <oedipus> GJR: guidelines for user testing?
# [01:52] <oedipus> DC: worth celebrating in any case
# [01:52] <Hixie> yeah you have to ignore joshue's comments as he editorialises :-) but the actual use parts are quite interesting
# [01:52] <oedipus> GJR: should we set some?
# [01:52] * Quits: aroben (adamroben@17.203.15.154) (Quit: aroben)
# [01:52] <oedipus> DC: cool that hixie really studying videos
# [01:52] <DanC> Zakim, next item
# [01:52] <Zakim> I do not see any non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, DanC
# [01:52] * Hixie would highly recommend not setting the bar high, we want to encourage input regardless of quality really, since otherwise we might see no input at all
# [01:52] <DanC> good point, hixie.
# [01:52] <oedipus> DC: end of prepared agenda
# [01:53] <DanC> yes, some videos is a whole lot better than no videos
# [01:53] * Hixie also studies usability studies internally at google and will happily study usability videos from anyone else if they send them his way
# [01:53] * oedipus hixie rrsagent doesn't record /me
# [01:53] <Hixie> i love studying them in detail
# [01:53] <Hixie> it's a goldmine of helpful guidance
# [01:53] * oedipus hixie if you want the comments on record, reinsert them
# [01:53] <DanC> * Hixie would highly recommend not setting the bar high, we want to encourage input regardless of quality really, since otherwise we might see no input at all
# [01:54] * DanC ^ for RRSAgent
# [01:54] <DanC> ADJOURN.
# [01:54] * oedipus thanks DanC - should i push to web now?
# [01:54] <Zakim> -Lachy
# [01:54] <Zakim> -Chris_Wilson?
# [01:54] * Quits: ChrisWilson (cwilso@24.22.163.64) (Quit: ChrisWilson)
# [01:54] * DanC yes, please and mail a pointer, if not full text, to the WG, oedipus
# [01:54] <Hixie> oedipus: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ logs the /mes, iirc
# [01:54] <oedipus> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
# [01:54] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, oedipus
# [01:54] * oedipus ok DanC
# [01:54] <oedipus> rrsagent, create minutes
# [01:54] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
# [01:54] <Zakim> -DanC
# [01:54] <oedipus> rrsagent, format minutes
# [01:54] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
# [01:55] <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
# [01:55] <oedipus> rrsagent, publish minutes
# [01:55] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
# [01:55] * DanC thinks this mixed-mode IRC/telcon style works fine
# [01:55] * oedipus should i dismiss zakim?
# [01:55] * DanC if you like
# [01:55] <DanC> Zakim, attendees?
# [01:55] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, DanC.
# [01:55] <oedipus> zakim, please part
# [01:55] <Zakim> leaving. As of this point the attendees were Lachy, DanC, Mike, Gregory_Rosmaita, +1.206.528.aaaa
# [01:55] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
# [01:55] <DanC> Zakim, list participants
# [01:55] <DanC> ok.
# [01:56] <DanC> wierd... it didn't get ChrisW
# [01:56] <oedipus> strange
# [01:56] <MikeSmith> yeah, dunno why that
# [01:56] <oedipus> it's been acting strangely all week
# [01:56] <MikeSmith> Zakim going through adolescent rebellion?
# [01:57] <oedipus> check for zits -- that's the dead give-away
# [01:57] <MikeSmith> heh
# [01:57] <heycam> RRSAgent, list participants
# [01:57] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'list participants', heycam. Try /msg RRSAgent help
# [01:58] <DanC> thanks, MikeSmith , for mailing out the agenda
# [01:58] <MikeSmith> np
# [01:59] <Hixie> oh sweet it looks like joshue updated the summary="" video
# [01:59] * Hixie downloads and watches
# [02:06] * Quits: tH (Rob@87.102.74.242) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508])
# [02:11] * oedipus says to DanC and MikeS that he doesn't understand why the participants weren't logged -- i thought zakim had taken attendence when ChrisW arrived
# [02:12] * oedipus and that rrsagent had been told -- i didn't do a participants+ at the end, which i guess i should have done
# [02:13] * oedipus apologizes and promises to flog himself with a wet noodle after he cooks pasta for dinner
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# [02:16] * oedipus waves at robburns
# [02:17] <robburns> waves back
# [02:17] <oedipus> the telecon just ended about 10-15 minutes ago
# [02:19] <oedipus> minutes: http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-minutes.html
# [02:19] <oedipus> IRC Log: http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-irc
# [02:20] <robburns> oedipus: thanks, I thought I might have missed it. I've been away from the internet for a while so I wasn't even sure what time this one was being held
# [02:22] <oedipus> next meeting is scheduled for 1pm EDT / 1700 UTC Friday, 21 September 2007
# [02:23] <oedipus> PROPOSED: cancel 27 September call - reschedule possibly for first week of October
# [02:23] <robburns> OK, thanks
# [02:24] <robburns> I thought this meeting might have been a 1700 meeting, because the last one was 2300, wasn't it?
# [02:24] <oedipus> no problem -- helps to know in advance -- the october call would be the 7pm EDT/4pm PDT/
# [02:25] <MikeSmith> oedipus - no biggy about Present list; I've added it now and trimmed the minutes and checked back in
# [02:25] <oedipus> the meetings are alternating between western and eastern hemisphere time slots; DanC does the american afternoon, while ChrisW chairs the alternate meeting
# [02:25] <oedipus> thanks MikeS - i don't have "permission(s)" to work that kinda magic in w3c space
# [02:26] * oedipus notes that he's still going to have pasta for dinner -- eventually
# [02:26] * MikeSmith wanders off for a while
# [02:27] <oedipus> robburns: so one meeting is at 1700 UTC while the other is at 2300 UTC
# [02:30] <robburns> ooedipus: thanks for the info. bon appetit.
# [02:30] <oedipus> robburns: thanks - i AM off to cook that damn pasta, and take it from me, a listened-to pot of water doesn't boil any faster than a looked-at pot...
# [02:32] <robburns> OEDIPUS: LOL
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# [03:08] <Lachy> hmm. in the summary attribute video, it's interesting how the bind user says he wouldn't miss it if HTML5 didn't include it, since he never uses it in practice, but then still says it might be useful without really explaining why
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# [03:18] <oedipus> lachy - the user probably doesn't miss it due to lack of support for it; it is extremely useful than the alternative -- a simple X by Y (X equaling rows and y equaling columns) statement, which is what is presented to the user in the absence of a summary
# [03:20] <oedipus> there is a world of difference when one knows not merely how many rows and columns a table consists of, but what they are representative of -- i tried to explain/demonstrate this in the example at: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ExplicitAssociationPatterns#head-27604d3fc1ffdb981a52a4144d36777d598016a2
# [03:21] * oedipus would like to follow up with lachy, but has to tend to his pasta
# [03:21] <Lachy> oedipus, in practice, do you personally have the summary attribute read out when provided? And when provided, do you usually find it has a useful value?
# [03:21] <oedipus> yes, it is automatically read
# [03:22] <oedipus> i find it extremely useful when there aren't explicit bindings such as those provided by headers/id
# [03:22] <oedipus> it is also commonly used in a "list of tables on this page" dialog
# [03:22] <oedipus> otherwise, an AT will substitute the dimensions of a table
# [03:23] <Philip> Does it hurt much when people use it non-usefully, like summary="Video Games, video games, video game reviews, video game rentals, video game, video game rental", or is it easy to ignore that kind of thing?
# [03:23] <oedipus> it at least tells me what is contained in an area of the document i'm about to traverse
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# [03:24] <oedipus> or to make a decision to skip or navigate the table
# [03:24] <oedipus> one learns to ignore spacer dot gif
# [03:25] <Philip> (That was from http://www.gamefly.com/ps2/ where it's used three times on layout tables - I guess they're aiming for some SEO benefit)
# [03:25] <oedipus> and other annoyances -- the AT should have a setting to suppress such renderings or tailor them to the individual user's liking/need
# [03:25] <Lachy> I wonder if it would be possible for it to read out more useful information when summary has been omitted, such as the section heading or title attribute, or something else that would be more useful than the dimensions?
# [03:26] <oedipus> an AT will try and guess whether a table is a layout table or a data table, and one CAN instruct one's AT to avoid what it deems as a layout table
# [03:26] <oedipus> lachy: that's where aria markup enters the picture
# [03:27] * oedipus sorry -- i'll be back as soon as i can -- i can hear the pot boiling over
# [03:33] <Lachy> I don't have much faith in the success of WAI ARIA. From what I've seen of it, it seems to be poorly engineered and overly complex for authors
# [03:35] <Lachy> for instance, the first example in the aria-role spec is using a span to implement a tri-state checkbox. I'd rather extend <input type=checkbox> to support tri-states than hack around it with non-semantic spans
# [03:36] <Lachy> http://www.w3.org/TR/aria-role/#Example
# [03:38] <Lachy> Another example uses divs and CSS to build a collapsible tree view list http://www.w3.org/TR/aria-role/#Exampletree - HTML5 solves that use case with datagrid
# [03:42] <Hixie> holy jeesus that's complex markup
# [03:42] <Hixie> i wonder what happens if one of those "wairole:treeitem"s was a "wairole:grid"
# [03:42] <Hixie> is that defined?
# [03:51] <Lachy> Mark P just wrote this http://blog.whatwg.org/the-longdesc-lottery
# [03:51] <Lachy> oedipus, I added a preview button for the blog comments (I know you complained about that before)
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# [03:55] <Philip> Lachy: But HTML5 solves that use case by putting it into a decade-long specification project and requiring every UA to implement new features, which isn't helpful when somebody wants some other type of control and wants it working within the month
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# [04:01] <heycam> blog.whatwg.org should give the author of entries
# [04:02] <Lachy> heycam, I just fixed that.
# [04:02] <Lachy> it's another bug as a result of the wordpress upgrade
# [04:02] <Lachy> I accidentially replaced all the templates
# [04:04] <heycam> cool
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# [04:14] <Lachy> does anyone know how, in wordpress, to check if an author has a URL, and if so, link their name to it? It seems that the_author_url() function immediate prints it, rather than return a useful, testable value
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# [04:53] <Lachy> never mind, found what I was looking for http://codex.wordpress.org/Template_Tags/the_author_url
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# [05:54] <Lachy> wow, ARIA Role is worse than I thought. It's a band-aid solution written from an ivory tower, seemingly without seriously considering any authoring issues.
# [05:55] <Lachy> (I'm fairly sure I'll get flamed for saying that, but oh well)
# [05:59] <mjs_> Lachy: can you name the accessibility experts you consulted before coming to that conclusion?
# [05:59] * mjs_ is now known as mjs
# [06:00] <mjs> actually, I do think some sort of tagging system for accessibility roles is useful, if only because web applications will want to get ahead of what browsers support natively
# [06:00] <mjs> but I think ARIA Role is not a very good approach to doing that
# [06:00] <Lachy> I reached my conclusion from reading the spec
# [06:01] <mjs> Lachy: I was being needlessly sarcastic there
# [06:02] <Lachy> I know, but there are IRC log readers who might want the answer anyway
# [06:03] <mjs> I agree with you, based also on reading the spec
# [06:03] * Hixie mumbles something about having been saying that for years
# [06:03] <mjs> although I think the intent is partly that JavaScript toolkit libraries will do all the heavy lifting, so the scope of authoring issues would be limited
# [06:04] <Lachy> BTW, wairole:grid is also addressed by <datagrid>
# [06:04] <Hixie> as far as i can tell, there isn't anything in wairole that isn't catered for by html5
# [06:05] <Hixie> (i used the wairole spec as a checklist a year ago or so and made sure)
# [06:05] <mjs> tristate checkboxes?
# [06:05] <Lachy> unfortunately, we can't rely on javascript toolkits (or any other tools) saving authors from the complexity
# [06:06] <Hixie> oh right, tristate checkboxes were on the list for wf2 but got bumped to wf3 because i couldn't work out how to submit them neatly
# [06:06] <Lachy> Hixie, are they somewhere in the whatwg.org/issues/ list?
# [06:06] <mjs> how do normal checkboxes submit?
# [06:07] <Lachy> when checked, they submit name=value. when unchecked, they submit nothing
# [06:07] <Hixie> lachy: they're probably in the big comment at the bottom of wf2's source
# [06:07] <Hixie> what lachy said
# [06:07] <mjs> the third (indeterminate/mixed) state of tristate checkboxes is mainly useful as an initial state when a group has mixed state and can be toggled on and off as a whole
# [06:07] <Hixie> there's an easy solution (have a second name for the mixed state) but i don't really like that
# [06:08] <Hixie> mjs: yeah but you still have to distinguish between left-in-initial-state and unchecked vs checked
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# [06:08] <Lachy> I'm not sure mixed state checkboxes should be submitted, since they're usually representative of a group of other checkboxes, and so their state can be determined by examining the state of the others
# [06:08] <mjs> mixed-state checkboxes mainly seem useful for cases where check/uncheck will be handled by script
# [06:09] <Hixie> possible
# [06:09] <mjs> what (if anything) they submit can't just be left unspecified
# [06:09] <Lachy> indeed. AFAIK, there is no way for a user to explicity set an individual checkbox to a mixed state in any UI I've seen.
# [06:09] <mjs> but it's possible that not submitting (just like an unchecked one) might be workable
# [06:10] <mjs> maybe not though
# [06:10] <Hixie> well we'll see
# [06:10] <Hixie> wf3 is a far future thing
# [06:10] <Hixie> and demand for tristate is low
# [06:11] <Lachy> the other alternative would be to introduce an attribute <input type=checkbox name=x value="foo" mixed="bar">, where x=foo is submitted in the normal case and x=bar for the mixed case
# [06:11] <mjs> I'm probably going to suggest form features for HTML5 that aren't part of WF2 at some point
# [06:12] <mjs> but I don't know if tristate would be high on the list
# [06:12] <Lachy> mjs, are you or someone else from apple ever going to get around to providing details about placeholder=""? I recall that you once said someone would do so
# [06:12] <mjs> Lachy: I will remind the relevant person when she gets back from vacation
# [06:13] <Lachy> ok
# [06:13] <mjs> but I'm not sure there's a whole lot to say about it
# [06:13] <mjs> <input type="search"> is probably something that will actually need revision to be spec-worthy, and explication of current behavior
# [06:13] <Lachy> I think most of placeholder is fairly obvious, but in case there's some not-so-obvious detail about it
# [06:14] <Hixie> Lachy: yeah i suggested that easy solution above :-)
# [06:14] <mjs> I don't think there is anything non-obvious about placeholder
# [06:15] <Hixie> placeholder will be done before wf3 i'm sure
# [06:15] <Lachy> one thing about tristate checkbox that would need to be addressed is that typically, when checking one, the states of the related group of checkboxes is usually toggled too.
# [06:16] <mjs> it might be possible to come up with a nice solution for that in the context of datagrid at least
# [06:18] <mjs> I think there's definitely controls that would be more useful than some of the half-dozen different date controls in WF2
# [06:19] <mjs> but I will save it until the current forms stuff is integrated into the main spec
# [06:19] <mjs> (presumably after the Forms Task Force finishes deciding what it is supposed to do and then doing it)
# [06:20] <Lachy> mjs, is the forms task force ever going to get started?
# [06:21] <mjs> Lachy: we're waiting on the sixth person to give a sign of life
# [06:21] <mjs> Lachy: there was some rumor that he might be on vacation
# [06:21] <mjs> though I must admit so far it is the slowest-acting six-person group I have ever seen
# [06:22] <Lachy> hmm. there are 10 emails pending user approval for public-forms-tf. I can't see what they are though, I don't have permission for that. Maybe they're trying to send but can't?
# [06:22] <mjs> I would assume that shouldn't happen for people who are on the list
# [06:24] <Lachy> yeah, unless "pending user approval" means that they haven't yet agreed to the W3C's email archive policy, which needs to be done before posts will go through on any list
# [06:27] <mjs> Sebastian has been an XForms WG member for some time (and I think maybe also XHTML2 WG)
# [06:27] <mjs> I'd be surprised if he hasn't sent any email
# [06:29] <Lachy> yeah, he has, I just checked, so that can't be the reason
# [06:47] * olivier can confirm
# [06:47] <olivier> the 10 mails "pending approval" are all spam
# [06:47] <olivier> Dept.of Offshore Mortgage Services !
# [06:48] <olivier> Dearest Be Loved One
# [06:49] <Lachy> thanks olivier
# [06:49] <olivier> etc etc
# [06:49] <olivier> np
# [06:49] <Lachy> do they get automatically purged after a while?
# [06:50] <olivier> yes, I think so
# [06:50] <olivier> I think the people have a week following the initial challenge
# [06:53] <olivier> the assumption being that if they send mail, they're around and aren't going to disappear for a week moments after sending their first mail to a list
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# [13:35] <anne> DanC, the reason the Forms TF is not moving is described here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2007Sep/0003.html
# [13:38] <Lachy> anne, it might be a good idea to just get started without him for now or maybe ask the Forms WG to replace him
# [13:39] <Lachy> it's been nearly 3 weeks since the group began, that's enough waiting
# [13:40] <anne> we asked Septemeber 9, it's probably good to give it some more time
# [13:41] <Lachy> mjs asked for introductions on Aug 22
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# [15:37] <Lachy> robburns, why are you choosing to blatently ignore information about actual user testing of longdesc that shows how it doesn't work in practice and users don't really benefit from it even when provided?
# [15:38] <Lachy> I'm referring to your response to Eric Eggert/Tomas Caspers
# [15:38] <robburns> Lachy: I'm not ignoring any information. I just don't think the conclusion is based on any of the information provided. It must be based on something else, but that's not stated in the email.
# [15:39] <Lachy> you don't think the fact that *users don't even benefit from it* isn't evidence against it?
# [15:40] <Lachy> I don't see how you can reach any other conclusion, nor why you continue to hold on to faulty assumptions
# [15:42] <robburns> Lachy: yes if you start from the assumption that "users don't even benefit from it" I can see how you get to the conclusion that we should eliminate it. However, I can't imagine how users wouldn't benefit from it in circumstances the require a long description.
# [15:43] <Lachy> I'm not starting with the assumption that they don't. I'm just not starting with the assumption that they do
# [15:43] <robburns> If you're going to start from the assumption that "users don't benefit from it" and then say ergo we can eliminate the attribute, you might as well just start from the assumption "that we should eliminate the attribute"
# [15:44] <robburns> Lachy: then how do you draw the conclusion that we have any evidence against retaining longdesc?
# [15:45] <robburns> if you're not making that assumption I mean
# [15:46] <Lachy> 1. authors rarely use it. 2. when they do, they often use it wrongly or redundantly (e.g. <a href=""> to the same page). 3. evidence from user testing (including both Joshue's video and Eric's email) suggests that real screen reader users don't make use of it, even when provided.
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# [15:47] <Lachy> what exactly is your case for longdesc?
# [15:48] <Lachy> from what I've read, it's basically that we should including it with the hope that UAs will implement it better, authors will use it better and users will start to benefit from it then.
# [15:48] <Lachy> that approach is just absurd
# [15:48] <robburns> 1. it doesn't matter how often authors use it. 2. it isn't redundant if it's required for browser fallback that don't support it. 3. you cannot interpret user testing to generalize that no user for any site don't make use of it (those users didn't for those sites)
# [15:49] <Lachy> see, that's what I mean about *blatently ignoring evidence*!
# [15:49] <robburns> UAs implementing it better is absurd? Or authors using it better?
# [15:49] <robburns> which evidence am I ignoring?
# [15:50] <Lachy> no, the assumption that UAs can or will implement it better and that users will start using it better is absurd. It's theoretically possible for either of those to happen, but there's no evidence to suggest that it will
# [15:51] <Lachy> you're ignoring evidence of author usage, UA support and the lack of usability. That's pretty much everything!
# [15:51] <robburns> Lachy: there's no more evidence to suggest browsers will implement any of the HTML5 spec. We have to take that part on faith.
# [15:52] <Lachy> ah, no, there's plenty of evidence that UAs will implement many new features
# [15:52] <robburns> No, I acknowledge all of that evidence. I just don't see how you can leap to the conclusions you leap to. There's an enormous disconnect between that evidence and what you conclude.
# [15:52] <Lachy> list some for which you think there is no evidence?
# [15:53] <Lachy> robburns, there's no counter evidence. I'm still waiting for you to present yours
# [15:53] <robburns> Lachy: present my what?
# [15:53] <Lachy> your evidence in support of longdesc
# [15:56] <robburns> How about this evidence: 1 blind people cannot see (stipulated). 2. images that convey critical content or the prime content for a webpage may require a lengthy and semantically rich description for those who cannot see the image 3) img is a void element and cannot contain such lengthy and semantically rich description. 4) longdesc is an attribute that takes an URL that can point to a semantically rich description of an image.
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# [15:57] <Lachy> the first 3 are potential reasons to supply a long description, which I don't disagree with. Concluding that longdesc="" is the answer is what I disagree with. Longdesc is just one possible solution which has failed in reality
# [15:57] <anne> <object>
# [15:58] <robburns> OK, but does that mean we're going to remove <img> from the document conformance criteria?
# [15:58] <anne> why? seems to work fine
# [15:58] <robburns> I agree that longdesc is just one possible solution.
# [15:59] <robburns> anne: why not add several elements and require that they all work fine. We could have 1) <picture>, 2. <still>, 3) <photograph>, 4)...
# [16:00] <anne> Philip, see pm
# [16:00] <anne> robburns, I'm not sure how that's useful
# [16:00] <anne> <img> works fine for authors today and they're used it and it's well implemented; why require the world to change here?
# [16:00] <robburns> anne: that was my point
# [16:01] <anne> well, longdesc is not used by the world and since it was invented has been sparsely implemented
# [16:01] <robburns> anne: the point is that you put forward <object> to fix the short-comings of <img>. If <object> fixes those short-coming, then why do we need <img> too. Once <object> works finer than <img> let's drop-kick <img>
# [16:01] <anne> and when it's used it's mostly abused it seems
# [16:02] <anne> <object> is more typing and doesn't work good in some browsers
# [16:02] <robburns> we don't have much evidence of its abuse.
# [16:02] <anne> we have lots of statistics and people who have examined such pages
# [16:02] <Lachy> because <img> is going to continue to be used and there's no reason to prevent that. Longdesc, on the other hand, doesn't get used and so it doesn't matter what happens to it.
# [16:02] <anne> wikipedia is a prime example
# [16:02] <anne> but it seems that you're not really willing to accept anything of that, so I'm not sure why I'm debating this with you...
# [16:03] <robburns> anne: no wikipedia is not a prime example: at least not one to make your case.
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# [16:03] <robburns> wikipedia has a small bug in that its longdesc doesn't point to the document fragment on the page where the long description occurs.
# [16:04] <anne> lol
# [16:04] <anne> you're just not being realistic here
# [16:04] <robburns> but it's not a bug that the longdesc attribute points to the page with the long description and that there's also a link to bring authors to where they can edit that image, its long description, and its other metadata
# [16:05] <robburns> anne: I have no idea what you mean by that.
# [16:05] <robburns> how am I not being realistic?
# [16:05] <Lachy> real long descriptions generally don't occur on wikipedia image pages, it's generally just copyright information, file history and other metadata
# [16:06] <Lachy> but in wikipedia, longdesc is completely redundant given the <a href=""> pointing to the same page, which is equally usefull for everyone
# [16:07] <robburns> Lachy: but wikipedia does provide a filed for long descriptions of images. And its not redundant because it provides different information to the UA. It just so happens for the wiki it needs to provide a mechanism for visistors to edit the information.
# [16:07] <robburns> ... visitors to edit the information also
# [16:08] <robburns> However, other than missing the fragment identifier I'd say MediaWiki is right on with their longdesc support.
# [16:08] <Lachy> wikipedia wouldn't lose anything at all by removing longdesc and setting alt="" on images in articles. <a href="">, possibly with rel=longdesc, would be just as effective for end users and more effective in practice
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# [16:09] <anne> MarkB!
# [16:09] <MarkB> ho!
# [16:10] <anne> MarkB, you think the _technical_ architecture group should suggest UI enhancements for browsers? :)
# [16:10] <robburns> Lachy: that could almost work for mediawiki. However, that approach would not work for any sight that wanted to provide a long description in a different location than the image link. So even for MediaWiki it would mean they couldn't fix the before mentioned bug of adding a fragment identifier.
# [16:10] <MarkB> just as an example, yah, i think it might help
# [16:11] <anne> hmm, for them to realize this is not realistic?
# [16:11] <MarkB> lol
# [16:11] <MarkB> no, for the browser vendors to realize that we're not asking you to halt-and-catch-fire 8-)
# [16:14] <Lachy> robburns, sites can provide an additional link adjacent to the image. e.g. <figure><img><legnd>Caption... (<a href="..." rel=longdesc>read long description</a>)</legend></fieldset>
# [16:15] <robburns> Lachy: sure they could, but why should they have to. Authors want more control over their document s than that. They want to indicate a link when they want a link and they want to indicate longdesc when they want longdesc. (with no link)
# [16:15] <Lachy> it's what many sites do in practice anyway
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# [16:17] <Lachy> if they don't want the link visible for sighted users, they could always hide it with stylesheets. But in many cases, the long description is useful to more than just those with ATs that expose it
# [16:17] <robburns> Lachy: well those authors would be free to continue doing that even if longdesc worked correctly
# [16:18] <Lachy> right. Which authors use longdesc in a useful way without providing a redundant link? I've seen very few sites that ever do that (only found 1 so far)
# [16:21] <robburns> Well I've seen many examples. I think if it's a genuine longdesc — and it's not a wiki — then most authors would not want to provide a redundant link. I't s content not relevant for those who can fully consume the graphic directly.
# [16:27] <Lachy> robburns, there are, for example, low vision users who may not use a screen reader or other assistive, but may still benefit from the long description because they can't see image in great detail. But they could read the long description by magnifying the text
# [16:28] <robburns> Lachy: yes I understand that use case. That's why I think we should require longdesc support for all UAs (without using a standard hyperlink)
# [16:29] <Lachy> well, in practice, that hasn't happened and you haven't presented any evidence that it will. As I said on the blog, if you can get UAs to implement it in a useful way and it can be demonstrated that it helps improve its usage, it could be included later
# [16:30] <Lachy> but until then, I don't think its worth considering longdesc="" as a viable solution. I think its dead.
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# [16:36] <Philip> Lachy: Why couldn't they just zoom in on the image?
# [16:37] <Lachy> they could, but it might be harder to comprehend the image if they can only see a small portion of it at a time.
# [16:38] <Philip> I suppose colour blindness is a case where it can be useful to have a description of some images
# [16:39] <Philip> (since you can't really use any technology to convert the image into an equivalent graphical form)
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# Session Close: Sat Sep 15 00:00:01 2007

The end :)