/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-10-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Oct 03 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  56. # [07:58] <ShawnRisk> I am trying to use backbase drag-and-drop example in the explorer just this isn't working at all. If I use other examples that use drag-and-drop they work. Any ideas why?
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  59. # [08:02] <ShawnRisk> anyone here?
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  63. # [08:46] <ShawnRisk> seems dead in here
  64. # [08:48] <karl> ShawnRisk: example from where ?
  65. # [08:48] <ShawnRisk> let me get the url
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  67. # [08:49] <karl> note that it is not a channel for learning HTML :) in case of.
  68. # [08:50] <ShawnRisk> I know that
  69. # [08:51] <ShawnRisk> this is in the Backbase Explorer: Backbase_Enterprise_Ajax_Community_Edition/client_4_0_2_examples/explorer/indexChameleon.html#|examples/explorer.xml on the local desktop
  70. # [08:51] * karl usually recommends people to go to http://www.webdesign-l.com/ for HTML learning.
  71. # [08:51] <ShawnRisk> http://devnet.backbase.com/client_4_0_1_examples/explorer/indexChameleon.html#|examples/dragAndDrop.xml
  72. # [08:51] <ShawnRisk> look there
  73. # [08:52] <karl> ShawnRisk: How does it relate to the development of HTML 5 specification. :)
  74. # [08:52] <ShawnRisk> it doesn't
  75. # [08:52] <karl> then out of scope for this channel
  76. # [08:53] <ShawnRisk> I just looked at LOGS here, and people were talking about backbase so I thought it was the right place to talk about here
  77. # [08:53] <karl> nope
  78. # [08:53] <ShawnRisk> where is?
  79. # [08:55] <karl> http://devnet.backbase.com/#dev/forum/home.xml[1] right where from you are coming from
  80. # [08:56] <ShawnRisk> ok, but no irc?
  81. # [08:56] <karl> ShawnRisk: we are not backbase. Ask them.
  82. # [08:56] <ShawnRisk> okay
  83. # [08:56] <ShawnRisk> how is html5 going?
  84. # [08:57] <karl> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/
  85. # [09:00] <ShawnRisk> 502 proxy error
  86. # [09:06] <ShawnRisk> I am out
  87. # [09:06] <ShawnRisk> talk later
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  89. # [09:09] <olivier> dammit, this cvs server is a pain
  90. # [09:09] <olivier> (502 proxy fixed)
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  136. # [15:29] <aaronlev> zcorpan_: i need to write up all little bits of special case ARIA logic we have so they can be incorporated or rejected
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  147. # [16:42] <DanC> hmm... the public-html list seems to have slowed down a bit... maybe that makes it a little easier to catch up
  148. # [16:43] <DanC> hmm... the ARIA discussion is interesting
  149. # [16:44] * DanC wishes the draft would start with a hello-world example
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  151. # [16:50] <zcorpan_> DanC: i might make an introduction at some point. or someone else can suggest an introduction that i can include :)
  152. # [16:50] <zcorpan_> i made some tests: http://simon.html5.org/test/aria/
  153. # [16:50] <DanC> ah. excellent. that was going to be my 2nd wish ;-)
  154. # [16:51] <zcorpan_> :)
  155. # [16:52] <DanC> so the test hypothesis is that the role value is visible to the MS accessiblity API?
  156. # [16:52] <DanC> s/the/a/
  157. # [16:52] <zcorpan_> yes
  158. # [16:53] * DanC wonders if it would work under wine
  159. # [16:54] <zcorpan_> please let me know about any debuggers for other platforms
  160. # [16:54] <DanC> yeah; here's hoping. I don't have anything to offer just now.
  161. # [16:54] <zcorpan_> ok
  162. # [16:55] * DanC wonders if that request for help has gone out in the mailing list yet
  163. # [16:56] <zcorpan_> nope
  164. # [16:58] <anne2> there has been some debate about owning namespaces though...
  165. # [16:58] * anne2 is now known as anne
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  167. # [17:00] <DanC> namespaces are evidently the boogy-man. questions like "Does ARIA require the use of namespaces, which are not available in text/html?" seems odd, to me.
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  169. # [17:00] <DanC> seems to me that what's available in text/html is negotiable
  170. # [17:01] <anne> we're sort of constrained to legacy parsers by the charter iirc, but I suppose that's true
  171. # [17:01] <DanC> legacy parsers don't prohibit namespaces, AFAIK
  172. # [17:02] <DanC> I suppose the real issue is that deployed stuff doesn't propagate namespaces do the DOM
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  174. # [17:02] <DanC> s/do the/to the/
  175. # [17:02] <zcorpan_> and existing content relies on that to be so
  176. # [17:02] <zcorpan_> aiui
  177. # [17:02] <anne> anyway, not the thing I was referring to
  178. # [17:03] <DanC> ok, I guess I can adjust the way I read. The mime type is only tangentially relevant.
  179. # [17:04] <DanC> oh... maybe it's more relevant than that... do namespaces show up in the DOM if application/xhtml+xml is used?
  180. # [17:05] <zcorpan_> ah... yes
  181. # [17:05] <zcorpan_> the DOM always has namespaces
  182. # [17:05] <zcorpan_> although namespaceURI might be null
  183. # [17:06] <anne> what I was referring to is "which group is responsible for http://www...xhtml"
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  186. # [17:07] <DanC> do you mean /1999/xhtml in particular, anne? I edited it a while ago to reflect the fact that about 4 or 5 W3C WGs are chartered to work on it. Whee!
  187. # [17:07] <anne> yeah
  188. # [17:08] <anne> i don't think it matters per se, but it seems kind of weird for all kinds of groups to change that namespace
  189. # [17:09] <DanC> definitely weird. much more straightforward if the chartering process makes things more modular. but it didn't, so here we are.
  190. # [17:10] <anne> I don't follow, what do you mean?
  191. # [17:11] <DanC> the chartering process could have said that WG-27 owns the /1999/xhtml namespace, and any other WG that wants to make changes to it asks WG-27 for those changes.
  192. # [17:11] <anne> ah right, yes, that would've been much better
  193. # [17:11] <DanC> but instead, we have ~4 WGs whose charter implicitly gives them write access.
  194. # [17:14] <DanC> making javascript apps accessible is worth its own WG, to me. I wonder if it's worth a re-org.
  195. # [17:14] <DanC> prolly not
  196. # [17:15] <zcorpan_> naw
  197. # [17:16] <zcorpan_> starting another wg will just eat time and not really give any benefit over what we're doing now afaict
  198. # [17:16] <DanC> I have a hard time figuring out the schedule... the WAI PF ARIA specs seem to involve changes to HTML, but the schedules I see have ARIA finishing before either HTML 5 or XHTML 2. That doesn't compute, to me.
  199. # [17:18] <zcorpan_> all of aria can be implemented before all of html5 is implemented
  200. # [17:18] <anne> i'd think the PFWG would just be folded into the HTMLWG
  201. # [17:18] <DanC> for example, http://simon.html5.org/test/aria/role/001.htm starts with <!DOCTYPE html> , which makes perfect sense, technically, but W3C ratification of it is tied to HTML 5, which has a 3 year schedule-of-record (with lots of HTML 5 proponents repeatedly referring to it as a 5 or 10 year project)
  202. # [17:18] <zcorpan_> i could remove the doctype altogether
  203. # [17:19] <zcorpan_> doesn't make a difference really
  204. # [17:19] <zcorpan_> or have an html4 doctype
  205. # [17:20] <DanC> an html4 doctype is inconsistent with new attributes.
  206. # [17:20] * DanC is pretty sure the problem is overconstrained
  207. # [17:20] <anne> i'd expect ARIA to stay in CR until HTML5 is finished
  208. # [17:20] <zcorpan_> i could add more tests with different doctypes to make sure browsers don't implement anything stupid
  209. # [17:20] <anne> or simply be folded in at some point
  210. # [17:20] <zcorpan_> yeah
  211. # [17:21] <DanC> having ARIA stay in CR until HTML5 is finished makes sense; I wonder if the WAI PF WG would go for that.
  212. # [17:21] <anne> same will happen with XMLHttpRequest, XMLHttpRequest level 2, XBL, afaict
  213. # [17:22] <DanC> I'm more and more convinced that the 2008 Q2 last call milestone for HTML 5 should be taken seriously.
  214. # [17:22] <anne> get the WG to publish something :)
  215. # [17:23] <zcorpan_> s/get the WG to //
  216. # [17:23] <anne> heh
  217. # [17:23] <DanC> why does it help for me personally to publish something, zcorpan_ ?
  218. # [17:23] <anne> DanC, btw, would it be possible for the Forms TF to get some webspace somewhere, or maybe a wiki?
  219. # [17:23] <zcorpan_> DanC: dunno
  220. # [17:23] <anne> both might be good
  221. # [17:24] <DanC> of course it's possible, anne
  222. # [17:24] <anne> so how do I get that arranged?
  223. # [17:25] <DanC> if I were you, I'd just use some webspace that you already have write access to... maybe the ESW wiki. If that's not good enough, sysreq is the support request mechanism.
  224. # [17:26] <DanC> sysreq with copy to your team contact (Karl, in this case, I guess)
  225. # [17:26] <DanC> do you know what you want?
  226. # [17:27] <anne> CVS access somewhere on www.w3.org to check in the proposed charter
  227. # [17:27] <anne> hopefully a wiki on the same place
  228. # [17:27] <anne> plus maybe a homepage with pointers to the charter + wiki
  229. # [17:27] <DanC> CVS access to a wiki? that's an open research problem, AFAIK ;-)
  230. # [17:28] <anne> no, CVS access to /2007/10/forms-tf/ or something like that
  231. # [17:28] <DanC> some form asked me for the taskforce homepage and I told it http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/
  232. # [17:29] * DanC always forgets how those archive cover pages get edited...
  233. # [17:29] <DanC> CVS access to /2007/10/forms-tf/ is the sort of thing sysreq does in a few hours/days
  234. # [17:30] * zcorpan_ notes that http://www.w3.org/TR/aria-state/ says "<DOCTYPE ..." instead of "<!DOCTYPE ..."
  235. # [17:30] <DanC> seriously, zcorpan_ ? how did that get past the pubrules checker? or is it in an example?
  236. # [17:30] <anne> examples
  237. # [17:31] <anne> it's a custom DOCTYPE, after all :)
  238. # [17:31] <zcorpan_> Valid XHTML 1.1 documents that wish to use this profile must use the following DOCTYPE declaration:
  239. # [17:31] <zcorpan_> <DOCTYPE ...
  240. # [17:31] <zcorpan_> 2.1.1 XHTML
  241. # [17:31] <DanC> typos in examples give me the willies. I love the python doctest module.
  242. # [17:31] <anne> the list maintainer is Lachlan Hunt, maybe he can edit that page
  243. # [17:32] <DanC> we got pretty close to nirvana with the SPARQL specs: the examples there were all machine checked (including the protocol examples) at one point.
  244. # [17:32] <zcorpan_> i would just dump all mention of DTDs and doctypes in the states spec
  245. # [17:35] * anne made a request to sysreq
  246. # [17:35] <zcorpan_> http://simon.html5.org/test/aria/doctypes/
  247. # [17:37] <DanC> speaking of publishing something, let's see... has mjs finished his editing pass on [HDP]?
  248. # [17:38] <anne> don't think so
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  250. # [17:38] * DanC discovers Shane's claim "The XHTML2 working group is responsible for the xhtml namespace"
  251. # [17:38] <Zeros> I wonder how many pages use the <DOCTYPE element
  252. # [17:39] <anne> DanC, he said he would contact you about the edit of the XHTML namespace document
  253. # [17:39] <zcorpan_> Philip: has <doctype> hit your radar? :)
  254. # [17:40] <zcorpan_> http://www.google.com/codesearch?q=%3Cdoctype+lang%3Ahtml
  255. # [17:41] <DanC> yes, shane wrote to me offline... I dind't make the connection to the public-html discussion until now
  256. # [17:41] <DanC> shane probably assumed I keep up with public-html ;-0
  257. # [17:42] <DanC> I'm not happy about the redirect from http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml to http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/ . And it was a pain to edit that page cuz it's content negotiated. A simple page with headings, paragraphs, and lists, and it's content negotiated. sigh.
  258. # [17:43] <anne> I have raised that issue a few times
  259. # [17:43] <anne> It also happens for 1999/xlink
  260. # [17:43] <DanC> raised it where?
  261. # [17:43] <anne> Should be archived somewhere in www-archive or w3c-archive
  262. # [17:44] <anne> with sysreq
  263. # [17:44] <anne> iirc
  264. # [17:44] <zcorpan_> http://www.google.com/codesearch?q=htmlpublic+lang%3Ahtml -- this might be a problem; html5 says <!doctype htmlpublic "foo"> is quirky
  265. # [17:45] <zcorpan_> though the doctypes that came up in that search would have been quirky anyway
  266. # [17:45] <anne> on, it was webreq
  267. # [17:45] <anne> in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2006Jun/0011.html
  268. # [17:46] <DanC> I suppose sysreq sorta makes sense... when I reviewed logs, it seemed that one of the webmasters installed the redirect
  269. # [17:46] <DanC> the redirect is there because uris of the form /1999/xhtml/foo have been issued, I think
  270. # [17:46] <anne> fun
  271. # [17:47] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.75.20) (Ping timeout)
  272. # [17:47] <DanC> it takes special apache magic to give a 200 at both /1999/xhtml and /1999/xhtml/foo
  273. # [17:48] <DanC> I think we do it for /History.html though
  274. # [17:48] <zcorpan_> can't you have a file named "xhtml"?
  275. # [17:48] <Philip> zcorpan_: http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/tag/doctype says only one on my (rather small) radar
  276. # [17:48] <zcorpan_> Philip: ok
  277. # [17:48] <DanC> you can have a file named "xhtml" or a directory named "xhtml" but not both. (the servers run debian linux)
  278. # [17:50] <anne> makes sense
  279. # [17:50] <anne> i wonder what files are in there
  280. # [17:50] <DanC> that 2006 thread with Matthieu Fuzellier seems to die after you answered his "what exactly needs fixing?" question, anne . or was there more off-list?
  281. # [17:50] <DanC> ~/w3ccvs/WWW/1999$ ls -l xhtml/Overview.*
  282. # [17:50] <DanC> -rw-r--r-- 1 connolly dant 2131 2007-06-14 17:16 xhtml/Overview.html
  283. # [17:50] <DanC> -rw-r--r-- 1 connolly dant 235 2007-02-15 17:32 xhtml/Overview.var
  284. # [17:50] <DanC> -rw-r--r-- 1 connolly dant 2211 2007-06-14 17:17 xhtml/Overview.xhtml
  285. # [17:50] <DanC> -rw-r--r-- 1 connolly dant 312 2007-02-15 17:32 xhtml/Overview.xsd
  286. # [17:52] <DanC> now I'm up to Richard's "So, there is serialization for html and then the xhtml modularization work . How is that coordinated?"
  287. # [17:52] <DanC> xhtml modularization got out of CR too soon, IMO.
  288. # [17:53] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.75.20)
  289. # [17:53] <anne> DanC, it either died or he replied saying something similar to what you just outlined occured
  290. # [17:53] * anne isn't sure
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  294. # [17:58] <DanC> I think the plan of record is that I chair a telcon at 1700Z tomorrow. But I'm also scheduled to attend a TAG telcon at that time. our telcon schedule nearly achieved a regular rhythm a little while ago, but it's flaking out a bit, again.
  295. # [17:59] <DanC> I'm inclined to move the telcon back to 1500Z... which would mean that I'm 58 minutes late with the agenda
  296. # [17:59] <DanC> I feel like I'm about 1/4th of the way preparing a worthwhile agenda after spending an hour or so catching up
  297. # [18:00] <DanC> I think I should (a) finish my agenda prep, but (b) cancel this week's telcon, and maybe (c) announce some IRC office hours tomorrow.
  298. # [18:01] <DanC> meanwhile, there's the question of whether to proposed to publish HDP even though mjs isn't clearly finishd with this pass
  299. # [18:01] <anne> I found http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/datatypes/ btw
  300. # [18:01] * Joins: xover (xover@193.157.66.5)
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  302. # [18:02] <DanC> oh.. yeah, there are other files.
  303. # [18:03] <DanC> datatypes is the only subdirectory I can find
  304. # [18:03] <anne> me too
  305. # [18:03] * anne did a CVS checkout
  306. # [18:05] <DanC> Sep 26 15:59:12 <mjs> DanC: at some point I'd suggest to ship it instead of waiting more
  307. # [18:06] <DanC> last edit is still 2007-09-14 09:44:18 :-/
  308. # [18:14] <DanC> mjs is remarkably patient and thorough in answering comments. That's laudable, in a way, but at some point, it's time to say "we've discussed that enough; time to move on"
  309. # [18:19] <DanC> at one point, mjs said he was going to add an accessibility principle. I see "3.4 Universal Access"; I'm not sure whether (a) mjs has something more in mind, nor (b) whether that's seen as sufficient by those who raised concerns earlier.
  310. # [18:20] <DanC> changelog doesn't seem to have a declaration of victory; I gather mjs has more in mind.
  311. # [18:21] <DanC> looks like mjs owes Gregory an answer
  312. # [18:21] * Quits: xover (xover@193.157.66.5) (Ping timeout)
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  314. # [18:22] * DanC wonders how closely anne is tracking this stuff
  315. # [18:22] <DanC> looks like mjs owes Gregory an answer specifically to the msg of 2007-09-14 09:44:18
  316. # [18:22] <DanC> phpht. msg of Wed, 26 Sep 2007 16:11:06 -0400
  317. # [18:22] <anne> not particularly close as mjs said he would make the edits
  318. # [18:22] <anne> I don't believe he's done with that
  319. # [18:22] <anne> as I said before
  320. # [18:23] <DanC> any thoughts on whether to publish anyway?
  321. # [18:23] <DanC> I suspect finishing the accessibility discussion is kinda important. sigh.
  322. # [18:23] <anne> not really
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  325. # [18:26] <DanC> "document character set ..." thread... oh no! I've had more than one lifetime's worth of discussion of that stuff.
  326. # [18:26] <DanC> but HTML 5 throws open the whole dang design space. sigh.
  327. # [18:27] <anne> pointer?
  328. # [18:27] * Joins: laplink (link@193.157.66.199)
  329. # [18:27] <DanC> you entered the thread at Sun, 09 Sep 2007 17:57:23 +0200
  330. # [18:28] * Joins: xover (xover@193.157.66.5)
  331. # [18:28] <DanC> X-Archived-At: http://www.w3.org/mid/op.tyd89xqc64w2qv@annevk-t60.oslo.opera.com
  332. # [18:28] <anne> oh, that
  333. # [18:29] <anne> I shouldn't have replied in retrospect
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  340. # [18:50] <tH> hmm, no list mail since yesterday, wonder if something's up with my host :/
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  342. # [18:56] <zcorpan_> tH: likely
  343. # [18:56] <tH> i always know something's wrong when i'm getting less stock spam than usual
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  361. # [20:21] <anne> I'm not sure whether target.com is already changed or not, but it seems that it now duplicates information for products in the alt= text.
  362. # [20:22] * anne wonders how it was before
  363. # [20:23] <anne> the eweek article about is funny: "
  364. # [20:23] <anne> There are many applications that are designed to make Web sites accessible to the blind, but they rely on sites using standard programming. This typically includes small text tags next to images, so the software can speak the words aloud."
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The end :)