/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-11-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Nov 07 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  10. # [00:20] * jgraham_ notes he is arriving tomorrow morning, not evening
  11. # [00:21] <jgraham_> Or rather, I am already in Boston but not at the f2f yet
  12. # [00:25] * gsnedders could've sworn you said jgraham was arriving in the evening. shrugs.
  13. # [00:26] <jgraham_> I arrived in Boson yesterday evening, but I'm visiting a friend today. I wonder if I should have turned up to some of the meeting instead...
  14. # [00:27] <Philip> Boson? You've been doing too much physics :-p
  15. # [00:28] * jgraham_ struggles to find something funny to say about Bose-Einstein Condensates and fails
  16. # [00:29] <jgraham_> (re: the f2f; the ARIA meeting would have been interesting)
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  18. # [00:31] <jgraham_> gsnedders, Ben said he would be arriving tomorrow evening
  19. # [00:32] * jgraham_ seems to be talking to himself a lot. Jetlag has a lot to answer for
  20. # [00:35] <Philip> About noreferer: if it gets implemented and people start using it, it'd be interesting to see how many misspell it - maybe it'd be worth supporting both spellings if it turns out that people can't get one variation right
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  22. # [00:40] <Philip> (or call it norefer)
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  24. # [00:50] <Dashiva> We could call it norefferer, that way people can't get away no matter how they spell it normally
  25. # [00:52] <jgraham_> call it no-rfc2616-14.36 ;)
  26. # [00:57] <Philip> Match anything that begins with "nor"
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  52. # [06:08] <mjs> Hello anyone who is foolishly around
  53. # [06:08] <mjs> I am now in scenic cantabridgia
  54. # [06:09] <mjs> good lord I need to be up early
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  113. # [13:09] * anne wakes up
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  115. # [13:15] <karl> http://www.michael-noll.com/wiki/Cookie_Monster_for_XMLHttpRequest
  116. # [13:15] <karl> Cookie Monster for XMLHttpRequest
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  133. # [14:40] * myakura waves
  134. # [14:41] * DanC_lap waves
  135. # [14:43] <Hixie> is there a channel for the tp?
  136. # [14:44] * Quits: mjs (mjs@68.160.33.79) (Quit: mjs)
  137. # [14:44] <DanC_lap> yes, #tp ; there's a password, and I haven't figured out the policy yet...
  138. # [14:45] <Hixie> #tpac seems to be where the cool people are hanging out
  139. # [14:45] <myakura> only for the ACs?
  140. # [14:45] <Hixie> (cool = not able to get a password)
  141. # [14:46] <myakura> #tpac5 sounds cooler then :)
  142. # [14:46] <DanC_lap> #tp password is beantown
  143. # [14:46] <DanC_lap> you're welcome to join.
  144. # [14:47] <MikeSmith> Jon Resig just arrived here at TPAC
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  147. # [14:52] * DanC_lap changes topic to 'Several HTML sessions in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/07-TechPlenAgenda.html (more logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )'
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  149. # [14:53] * DanC_lap changes topic to 'Several HTML sessions in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/07-TechPlenAgenda.html . see #tp , password beantown (more logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )'
  150. # [14:55] <DanC_lap> [08:50] <ted> http://media.w3.org/stream.html is the one with applet client included
  151. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> James Graham joins the party
  152. # [14:55] * Joins: anne (annevk@63.119.45.192)
  153. # [14:55] <DanC_lap> Mike, where's James?
  154. # [14:56] <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - 2nd row -- young guy with long curly hair
  155. # [14:56] <DanC_lap> black shirt?
  156. # [14:56] * anne wonders why tp has a password if it's advertized on all kinds of public channels
  157. # [14:56] * DanC_lap hasn't figured that out
  158. # [14:57] <DanC_lap> Mike, there's a guy in the 2nd row with a black long-sleeve shirt; is that him?
  159. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - yeah
  160. # [14:58] <MikeSmith> jgraham - wave your hand
  161. # [14:59] <DanC_lap> the guy with the black shirt doesn't have a laptop going
  162. # [15:01] <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - dunno. Guess he's still logged in anyway
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  165. # [15:07] <Hixie> DanC_lap: can i blog the #tp password? i'm guessing i shouldn't
  166. # [15:13] <DanC_lap> gee...
  167. # [15:14] <DanC_lap> I can't see why not... I haven't figured out why there's a password at all
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  169. # [15:14] <mjs> good morning
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  171. # [15:14] * DanC_lap waves to mjs, wondering if he's around BOS
  172. # [15:14] <mjs> DanC_lap: I am
  173. # [15:15] <mjs> watching people talk in a big room
  174. # [15:16] <Hixie> DanC_lap: right-o, blogged :-) let me know if i should remove it. blog.whatwg.org
  175. # [15:16] <mjs> I can't figure out how to join the #tp channel
  176. # [15:16] <DanC_lap> ok
  177. # [15:16] <mjs> hello Hixie
  178. # [15:16] <DanC_lap> try: /join #tp beantown
  179. # [15:16] <Hixie> mjs: hey dude
  180. # [15:17] <mjs> thanks DanC_lap
  181. # [15:18] <DanC_lap> welcome
  182. # [15:19] * Quits: gavin (gavin@99.227.30.12) (Ping timeout)
  183. # [15:19] <DanC_lap> hixie, did you blog the streaming audio pointer?
  184. # [15:19] * mjs huddles with his coffee
  185. # [15:19] <Hixie> DanC_lap: ooo, no, didn't know about that. uri?
  186. # [15:20] <DanC_lap> [08:50] <ted> http://media.w3.org/stream.html is the one with applet client included
  187. # [15:21] <MikeSmith> mjs - which part of the room are you in?
  188. # [15:21] <Hixie> ah, sweet, i thought that was just the captioning
  189. # [15:21] <mjs> MikeSmith: left side as you face the stage
  190. # [15:22] <DanC_lap> hixie, and
  191. # [15:22] <DanC_lap> [08:50] <ted> olivier http://media.w3.org:8000/stream.ogg
  192. # [15:22] <DanC_lap> I haven't tested those, but I've never known ted to be wrong about such things
  193. # [15:23] <smedero> the java applet works in safari 3, though I had to crank the volume way up.
  194. # [15:23] <smedero> sadly I can't join you guys until tomorrow.
  195. # [15:23] <Hixie> DanC_lap: ah, cool, thanks
  196. # [15:23] <Hixie> and thanks to ted too
  197. # [15:24] <anne> that stream doesn't seem to good
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  199. # [15:25] <anne> I can't get the conversation repeated on my laptop by loading that ogg URI in VLC
  200. # [15:25] <Hixie> blog updated with all the info i have
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  202. # [15:30] <smedero> the volume levels just improved. :)
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  204. # [15:35] <anne> k, I won't try to repeat it then as it will create an echo :)
  205. # [15:39] <Lachy_> ah cool, there's an audio stream.
  206. # [15:39] <Lachy_> Is that Molly speaking now?
  207. # [15:39] <Hixie> yes
  208. # [15:39] <Hixie> that was molly
  209. # [15:39] <mjs> hi Lachy_
  210. # [15:39] <Lachy_> hi mjs
  211. # [15:45] <Lachy_> hey, if anyone is or will be doing test cases for <video> in the future, I made some pass/fail videos specifically for test cases yesterday.
  212. # [15:45] <Lachy_> http://lachy.id.au/dev/markup/tests/html5/support/
  213. # [15:46] <Lachy_> mjs, they might be useful for Apple's video implementation. I included some mp4 and ogg formats
  214. # [15:47] <mjs> Lachy_: thanks, I'll pass the test cases to our implementors
  215. # [15:47] <mjs> maybe I'll even see if they work on TOT :-)
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  218. # [15:48] <mjs> Lachy_: where's the html for those test cases?
  219. # [15:48] <Lachy_> didn't make any HTML for them yet. Just the videos
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  222. # [15:49] <mjs> ah, ok
  223. # [15:49] <mjs> seems handy
  224. # [15:49] <Hixie> man those are awesome
  225. # [15:50] <Lachy_> zcorpan was making tests a week or two ago and asked for some better vids
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  227. # [15:51] <Lachy_> is there another IRC channel for this W3C thing? Where are these questions coming from that they're reading out?
  228. # [15:51] <Hixie> #tp password beantown
  229. # [15:51] <Hixie> see blog.whatwg.org :-)
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  231. # [15:52] <Lachy_> ah, I looked at the blog already. I should have read it more thoroughly
  232. # [15:52] <Hixie> i updated it a few times
  233. # [15:53] <Hixie> you probably saw an early version :-)
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  238. # [16:24] <Lachy_> Hixie, what convinced you to correct the spelling of noreferrer?
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  240. # [16:26] <tantek> or to at least make it consistent with HTTP
  241. # [16:27] <Lachy_> tantek, it's now inconsistent with HTTP since it just changed from noreferer to noreferrer
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  243. # [16:27] <Lachy_> though it's apparently consistent with .referrer in javascript now
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  246. # [16:28] <Lachy_> http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-HTML/html.html#ID-95229140
  247. # [16:30] <tantek> oh
  248. # [16:32] <Hixie> Lachy_: well i don't _want_ to introduce spelling mistakes, i just needed an argument that trumped consistency. it was trumped by consistency with something else. :-)
  249. # [16:33] <Lachy_> indeed. I'm happy with the change now, the spelling mistake always bugged me in HTTP
  250. # [16:33] <tantek> indeed
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  252. # [16:34] * Lachy_ wonders if any browsers or servers actually support a Referrer header as well as Referer for HTTP?
  253. # [16:36] <Philip> I've seen firewall-ish things that block the Referer value, and I use Opera with referrer logging disabled, so it doesn't seem a totally critical piece of functionality that it would hurt a lot to change
  254. # [16:37] <Lachy_> it would unfortunately hurt some sites. There are quite a few sites that check the Referer header to prefent hot linking
  255. # [16:38] <mjs> Lachy_: Safari doesn't try to add the one that's spelled right
  256. # [16:38] <Lachy_> some blogs even do it as part of their anti-comment spam system to ensure that the user actually submitted the comment
  257. # [16:38] <mjs> like Darin said, we treat the funny spelling as just a quirk of the HTML protocol
  258. # [16:38] <mjs> and we try to spell it right otherwise
  259. # [16:38] <MikeSmith> Al Gilman introduces hsivonen, anne, shepazu ...
  260. # [16:38] <MikeSmith> and somebody remind me of the other cat's name
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  263. # [16:39] <MikeSmith> Rich Schwedtfeger
  264. # [16:39] <Lachy_> ah, how much of the audio did I miss? I closed it during the break. did it just resume again a few minutes ago?
  265. # [16:40] <tH> been going for 5 mins now
  266. # [16:40] <DanC_lap> go hsivonen ... boy... I'm glad the universe picked him to represent us
  267. # [16:43] <Lachy_> is Rich suggesting that the HTMLWG and the XHTML2WG merge?
  268. # [16:43] <Lachy_> that'll never work
  269. # [16:43] <mjs> "interesting and might actually work"
  270. # [16:43] <mjs> such flattery
  271. # [16:50] * Quits: Sander (svl@217.237.167.29) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  272. # [16:52] <Hixie> yeah tim! :-P
  273. # [16:52] <Hixie> er, wrong channel
  274. # [17:06] * Joins: Sander (svl@217.237.166.82)
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  277. # [17:10] * anne can't get on #tp
  278. # [17:10] <anne> beantown doesn't work
  279. # [17:11] <Philip> Try *
  280. # [17:11] <anne> thanks
  281. # [17:12] * gavin_ wonders why it was changed
  282. # [17:12] <gavin_> should hixie update his blog post?
  283. # [17:16] * Quits: Lionheart (robin@198.86.248.1) (Ping timeout)
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  287. # [17:32] <DanC_lap> wanna give me a title, mjs? maybe I can make one up
  288. # [17:32] <DanC_lap> I think there's a webkit blog article I can link to, yes?
  289. # [17:33] <mjs> Hixie: <details> and irrelevant="" are both good stuff
  290. # [17:33] <mjs> (moving from #tp)
  291. # [17:34] <mjs> DanC_lap: "CSS Animation Demo"
  292. # [17:34] <mjs> DanC_lap: or if you want to be more punchy, "HTML+CSS as Flash Killer"
  293. # [17:34] * mjs wonders if any Adobe folks are in the channel
  294. # [17:35] * Quits: Marcos (chatzilla@63.119.45.135) (Ping timeout)
  295. # [17:37] * DanC_lap hopes an elf will find the webkit article on the CSS animation stuff
  296. # [17:38] * Joins: dglazkov (dglazkov@65.81.81.30)
  297. # [17:39] <Sander> http://webkit.org/blog/138/css-animation/
  298. # [17:39] <myakura> that animation stuff was really fun to play with
  299. # [17:39] <DanC_lap> thanks, sander
  300. # [17:42] <timbl> Hmmm -webkit-transition
  301. # [17:42] * Quits: heycam (cam@210.84.41.244) (Ping timeout)
  302. # [17:43] <timbl> Presumaby in a few years there will be four lines, -webkit-transition -opera-transition, -moz-transition etc?
  303. # [17:43] <Hixie> no, just 'transition' once we have it standardised
  304. # [17:43] <DanC_lap> we hope to avoid x-www-urlencoded somehow?
  305. # [17:43] <Hixie> the prefix is just to ensure it doesn't step on the CSSWG's toes before that
  306. # [17:44] <timbl> Well, but in practice people will have the other 4 to work with the pre=standard versions
  307. # [17:44] <Hixie> sure, for a while.
  308. # [17:44] <mjs> fortunately with CSS this is not an undue hardship
  309. # [17:44] <Hixie> yeah
  310. # [17:44] <mjs> with HTML, having four different tag names would be really painful
  311. # [17:45] * DanC_lap invites sandro to note this versioning discussion
  312. # [17:45] <timbl> Still, I am not sure that the damage of stepping on toes outweights the pan of switching from the -foo- forms. The IETF did away wiht X- on experimental things
  313. # [17:46] <mjs> people do still say -webkit-opacity, -moz-opacity and opacity
  314. # [17:46] <timbl> Well, I guess it is better to hve the -foo- if the formats of the 4 are different.
  315. # [17:46] <mjs> it's a little messy
  316. # [17:46] <karl> timbl: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator-css/2007Nov/0003 - list of CSS proprietary CSS properties
  317. # [17:46] <mjs> not a perfect system
  318. # [17:46] <mjs> but in some ways better than alternatives
  319. # [17:46] <timbl> like many things
  320. # [17:46] <karl> s/of CSS/of webkit/
  321. # [17:47] <Hixie> yeah if we didn't have the prefixs, 'opacity' would be using the retarded inheritance model that -moz-opacity had
  322. # [17:48] <mjs> karl: we're working on a doc that makes clear which are internal, which are future CSS, and which are webkit experiments
  323. # [17:48] <mjs> sadly we have one prefix for all three
  324. # [17:48] <mjs> so it can be confusing
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  326. # [17:49] <karl> mjs: does it work with the real defined css 3 property name too?
  327. # [17:49] <karl> when defined
  328. # [17:49] <mjs> karl: we make things work with the real CSS property name when we feel the CSS spec is stable enough
  329. # [17:49] <karl> ok
  330. # [17:50] <karl> I guess there is no perfect solution
  331. # [17:50] <karl> an interesting outcome of my mail, is that sierk asked for the same kind of list for Mozilla, Opera and IE - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator-css/2007Nov/0004.html
  332. # [17:51] <mjs> the CSS property/prefix approach could also work for experimental/proprietary HTML attributes
  333. # [17:51] <mjs> but not really elements
  334. # [17:54] <Philip> karl: Looks like http://mxr.mozilla.org/seamonkey/source/layout/style/nsCSSPropList.h#261 contains the complete list for Mozila
  335. # [17:54] <myakura> hmm there seems to be prefixed values for a property http://sho.tdiary.net/20050922.html#p02
  336. # [17:54] <karl> ah cool Philip
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  338. # [17:55] <tH> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Mozilla_CSS_Extensions , http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/CSS_Reference:Mozilla_Extensions
  339. # [17:58] <Philip> Opera properties: -o-prefocus -o-link -o-link-source -o-text-overflow -o-table-baseline -o-background-size -o-widget-mode
  340. # [17:58] <Philip> Opera values: -o-skin -o-language-string -o-pre-wrap -o-content-size -o-highlight-border
  341. # [17:58] <Philip> (in 9.5b1)
  342. # [18:00] <Philip> Does IE have any prefixed names?
  343. # [18:03] <smedero> I don't believe they do. For instance see: http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms532847(d=printer).aspx
  344. # [18:03] <smedero> which does stuff like filter: alpha(opacity=N);
  345. # [18:04] <smedero> hrm, there might be some -ms- ones
  346. # [18:04] <anne> Philip, yes
  347. # [18:04] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233) (Ping timeout)
  348. # [18:04] <anne> Philip, though they also have extensions from before the prefix era
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  358. # [18:10] <smedero> somewhat helpful for IE: http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms531207(d=printer).aspx
  359. # [18:11] <smedero> "-ms-interpolation-mode"
  360. # [18:11] <smedero> is the only one I see on there...
  361. # [18:12] * beowulf just missed the .mobi stuff on #tp...
  362. # [18:12] <Philip> Aha, that page actually marks the non-standard features
  363. # [18:12] * Quits: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Leaving)
  364. # [18:12] <Philip> (and proposed-standard features)
  365. # [18:12] <smedero> Yep... though not in the most "text search" friendly method..
  366. # [18:12] <smedero> (it is all marked with little bulleted graphics)
  367. # [18:13] <smedero> but, better than nothing at all.
  368. # [18:13] <Philip> Looks like the only -ms- name is the only new non-standard name in IE7
  369. # [18:14] <Philip> (so I assume they intentionally changed their naming convention)
  370. # [18:14] <Philip> (which is nice)
  371. # [18:16] * Quits: DanC_lap (connolly@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  372. # [18:16] <Philip> Opera also does some -wap- ones listed at http://www.opera.com/docs/specs/css/ - are they implemented by anyone else?
  373. # [18:17] * Quits: anne (annevk@63.119.45.192) (Ping timeout)
  374. # [18:18] <smedero> Yeah there was a post on the IE Blog a while back about their intention to follow the vendor prefix naming scheme in IE 8.
  375. # [18:18] <smedero> erm
  376. # [18:18] <smedero> 7
  377. # [18:19] <Philip> Hixie: Might want to update the blog post to say there's no password on #tp now
  378. # [18:19] <smedero> http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2006/08/22/712830.aspx
  379. # [18:21] <smedero> I think the prefixes in the wild are -atsc-, -ms-, -moz-, -o-, and -wap-
  380. # [18:22] <smedero> (plus the others mentioned earlier)
  381. # [18:22] <Philip> http://triin.net/2006/06/12/css-properties.txt - -moz-border-radius appears to be the most popular
  382. # [18:25] <smedero> though the sample is kinda polluted on that data right? I vaguely remember this research.. it was ... *looking*
  383. # [18:25] <smedero> hrm
  384. # [18:25] <smedero> http://triin.net/2006/06/12/Selection_of_pages
  385. # [18:25] <smedero> actually it seems fair enough.
  386. # [18:26] <Lachy> looks like the password has changed again for #tp. Now there is none
  387. # [18:26] <Philip> I don't think they excluded any pages from the dmoz.org list, so it'll be heavily biased to cnn.com and quite based to weather.com and some others
  388. # [18:28] <Philip> http://websvn.kde.org/*checkout*/branches/KDE/3.5/kdelibs/khtml/css/cssproperties.c?revision=604643
  389. # [18:28] <Philip> has the -khtml- prefixes
  390. # [18:29] <Philip> http://websvn.kde.org/*checkout*/branches/KDE/3.5/kdelibs/khtml/css/cssproperties.in - oh, better version of that list
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  393. # [18:36] <Philip> Also in Opera: -xv-voice-{pitch,pitch-range,rate,volume} -xv-phonemes -xv-interpret-as
  394. # [18:36] <Philip> and I can't find any more prefixed names
  395. # [18:37] <Philip> ...except values -xv-digits -xv-{no,literal}-punctuation
  396. # [18:37] <Philip> but that's really all I can find :-)
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  415. # [19:35] <Hixie> i'm on stage, if anyone wants to update the blog post, go ahead
  416. # [19:37] * anne thinks the MS guy looks grumpy
  417. # [19:38] * anne looks at Hixie looking at the MS guy
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  421. # [19:40] <anne> the -wap- stuff is from the mobile world mostly
  422. # [19:40] <anne> -xv- stuff is related to our XHTML+Voice stuff done together with IBM
  423. # [19:43] * karl wonders if anne is talking about Paul Cotton on stage?
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  425. # [19:44] * anne didn't dare saying that in #tp
  426. # [19:45] * karl reminds that this is publicly recorded and even more visible than #tp
  427. # [19:46] <karl> but I would love to see a debate between anne and paul cotton.
  428. # [19:46] * anne is aware of that
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  430. # [19:46] * anne isn't sure who Paul Cotton is
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  432. # [19:47] <karl> the guy on stage, who was already participating to standards organization before you were born and has a quite interesting personal life
  433. # [19:48] <anne> i'm aware he's the guy on stage
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  436. # [20:22] <anne> karl, btw, I was not trying to imply anything about PC
  437. # [20:22] * anne was just making an observation
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  439. # [20:25] <DanC_lap> yeah... what should we do about the fact that I only speak English? yeah... translations... but still...
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  442. # [20:28] * myakura is now translating design principles & diffs into japanese
  443. # [20:28] <anne> cool
  444. # [20:29] <anne> I believe Charles was looking into getting those docs translated into Spanish through the Spanish standards community
  445. # [20:29] <anne> (Not the HTML 5 drafts because that's too much work as I understand it.)
  446. # [20:30] <myakura> yeah html5 trans is really a tough work
  447. # [20:30] <gsnedders> Was someone not translating HTML 5 section by section by request?
  448. # [20:31] <anne> dunno
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  451. # [20:44] <marcospod> what is the to password?
  452. # [20:44] <marcospod> tp even
  453. # [20:44] <anne> #tp has no password anymore
  454. # [20:44] <anne> or it's still *, that is
  455. # [20:44] <marcospod> ah thanks
  456. # [20:44] * anne changes topic to 'Several HTML sessions in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/07-TechPlenAgenda.html . see #tp , password * or nothing (more logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )'
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  459. # [20:50] <MikeSmith> myakura++
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  462. # [20:53] <gsnedders> it had no password when I joined
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  468. # [21:05] <Hixie> maybe we should say that people should use the registered part of their domain (the 'apple' in 'apple.com', 'bbc' in 'bbc.co.uk') as a prefix to all their new names
  469. # [21:05] <Hixie> so it'd me mf-hcard
  470. # [21:05] <Hixie> mf-hcalendar
  471. # [21:06] <tantek> isn't the "h" enough?
  472. # [21:06] <mjs> it's nice for well-known vocabularies not to need an entity prefix
  473. # [21:06] <mjs> (entity in the sense of business/organization)
  474. # [21:06] <anne> what we do for CSS seems fine
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  476. # [21:09] <mjs> promote to no prefix once standard?
  477. # [21:11] <anne> not sure about that
  478. # [21:11] <anne> if vendors are partaking prolly
  479. # [21:11] <anne> or maybe in that case you should standardize it directly (like we do with extensions)
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  532. # [23:07] <Steve_f> hey anne, i am going down to see tbl talk and will be at the reception later
  533. # [23:08] <anne> k cool
  534. # [23:08] <anne> james graham and such want to meet you too
  535. # [23:08] <jgraham_> indeed
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  538. # [23:09] <Steve_f> OK, will be around
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  561. # Session Close: Thu Nov 08 00:00:00 2007

The end :)