/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-11-08 / end

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  64. # [04:24] <anne2> So I think Timed Text is a no-op
  65. # [04:24] * anne2 is now known as anne
  66. # [04:25] <anne> Six namespaces, duplicating tons of functionality in HTML and CSS, etc.
  67. # [04:25] <anne> s/no-op/no-go/
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  112. # [12:38] <Philip> Ooh, Opera supports -apple-dashboard-region in CSS
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  117. # [12:56] <Lachy_> yeah, but I think it's a bit strange it was added with the -apple- prefix instead of -o-
  118. # [12:57] <Lachy_> AFIAK, apple widgets aren't compatible with opera widgets anyway
  119. # [13:02] <Philip> Does WebKit still support -apple-dashboard-region? The source code only mentions -webkit-dashboard-region, but maybe they do a s/-apple-/-webkit-/ on the input or something
  120. # [13:04] <Philip> Hmm, Opera doesn't even support some of the dashboard-region syntax from the Apple documentation
  121. # [13:04] <Dashiva> The support is very, very minimal
  122. # [13:05] <Philip> O9.2 reserialises style="-apple-dashboard-region: dashboard-region(control circle 15px 15px 75px 15px);" into STYLE='apple-dashboard-region: circle'
  123. # [13:05] <Philip> but O9.5 handles that correctly
  124. # [13:06] <Philip> ... because it doesn't actually reserialise the style attribute at all
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  126. # [13:07] <Philip> ... so actually O9.5 reserialises into style="-apple-dashboard-region: circle 15px 15px 75px 15px"
  127. # [13:08] <Philip> so O9.2 does look about as minimal as possible, but O9.5 is somewhat better :-)
  128. # [13:08] <Dashiva> Well, let me know if you can make it do something useful
  129. # [13:09] <Philip> I can't see it doing anything in normal web pages, and I don't care about widgets so I have no idea if it does anything there :-p
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  147. # [14:46] <MikeSmith> Kuruma - you around?
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  168. # [16:17] <Lachy_> hey, will there be an audio stream today?
  169. # [16:18] <MikeSmith> Lachy_ - nope
  170. # [16:18] <DanC_lap> hmm... task forces in other languages... great idea for HTML WG
  171. # [16:18] <Lachy_> ok, I guess I'll just have to follow on IRC then
  172. # [16:19] * oedipus says to lachy, that makes at least 12 of us!
  173. # [16:19] <DanC_lap> hmm... MikeSmith , I don't mind if somebody audiocasts the HTML WG meeting
  174. # [16:19] <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - so let's get somebody to do that
  175. # [16:20] <DanC_lap> I'd have to check with Chris W.
  176. # [16:20] <DanC_lap> any volunteers?
  177. # [16:20] <DanC_lap> yes, do try to find somebody, MikeSmith
  178. # [16:20] <MikeSmith> What mechanism were we using to stream the talk yesterday?
  179. # [16:20] <DanC_lap> something kinda elaborate
  180. # [16:21] <DanC_lap> Ralph knows about it
  181. # [16:21] <DanC_lap> and Ted
  182. # [16:21] <MikeSmith> I will check with Ralph and/or Ted then
  183. # [16:21] <DanC_lap> maybe not that elaborate; I think it's on/near media.w3.org
  184. # [16:22] <MikeSmith> k
  185. # [16:22] <oedipus> quick temporary fix? http://www.nch.com.au/streaming/index.html
  186. # [16:22] <MikeSmith> Probably we don't need to have anything set up for the HTMLWG session tomorrow, right?
  187. # [16:22] <hsivonen> just checking: is the f2f starting at 13:30?
  188. # [16:23] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - aye
  189. # [16:23] <Lachy_> can someone please ping me if/when an audio stream is set up and when the meeting starts?
  190. # [16:23] <MikeSmith> anybody hip to ices2?
  191. # [16:24] <MikeSmith> that's what they were using yesterday
  192. # [16:24] <oedipus> re NCH BroadWave you can use it for free provided "This software has two modes. A free version which has full features but requires you to have a link to our site on every page with a link to the stream."
  193. # [16:24] <MikeSmith> we need a machine with ices2 installed
  194. # [16:24] <MikeSmith> and we need a decent microphone
  195. # [16:24] <MikeSmith> microphones are in short supply
  196. # [16:24] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks
  197. # [16:24] <oedipus> BroadWave runs on linux, mac, and windows and is compatible with IE, FF, Safari
  198. # [16:24] <MikeSmith> oedipus - OK
  199. # [16:25] <MikeSmith> I guess the main thing we really need is a mic
  200. # [16:25] * oedipus notes he does not own stock in NCH, just that he's used it before
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  202. # [16:25] * oedipus notes if a blind medievalist can use it, anyone can use it!
  203. # [16:26] <MikeSmith> How many mics do we rip on the daily? me say many money me say many many man
  204. # [16:26] <MikeSmith> y
  205. # [16:29] <DanC_lap> aye, 13:30 Boston time. http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07
  206. # [16:29] * DanC_lap changes topic to 'HTML WG meeting starts 13:30 in Charles View (more logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )'
  207. # [16:29] * DanC_lap changes topic to 'HTML WG meeting starts 13:30 in Charles View http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07 (more logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )'
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  212. # [16:39] <Lachy_> oedipus, in your response to the survey about publihsing the HTML5 draft, I don't understand your comment about there being competing specs. They aren't competing. The WHATWG spec and the W3C spec are identical (except for the metadata at the top)
  213. # [16:40] <DanC_lap> ROOM CHANGE...
  214. # [16:43] * DanC_lap changes topic to 'HTML WG meeting starts 13:30 in Empress Ballroom on the 14th floor http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07 (more logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )'
  215. # [16:44] <oedipus> lachy - if that is so, then why not commit to a single draft and single track for HTML5? all feedback is welcome, but the only working draft should be the one housed in W3C space; WHAT WG can continue to develop its own version of HTML5, but the normative draft should be the one based upon the original WHAT WG submission to the W3C
  216. # [16:45] <Lachy_> oedipus, the point is we don't want two separate drafts. I don't see the problem in mirroring the same draft in 2 places
  217. # [16:45] <gsnedders> oedipus: not everyone can contribute to the W3C draft sadly
  218. # [16:46] <Lachy_> indeed. the W3C's rules about member organisations and prevent some people from joining the HTMLWG if they are employees of W3C members
  219. # [16:46] <Lachy_> ... and their employers don't nominate them
  220. # [16:47] <MikeSmith> oedipus - what you describe is what the current draft available on the W3C site already is, it seems to me at least
  221. # [16:47] <MikeSmith> it is a single draft
  222. # [16:47] <MikeSmith> just mirrored, as Lachy_ points out
  223. # [16:47] <karl> gsnedders: can you explain why not everyone can contribute?
  224. # [16:47] <gsnedders> karl: Lachy_ just did so
  225. # [16:47] <Lachy_> oedipus, it seems to me that what you're asking us to do, by letting the WHATWG develop it's own version, is exactly what you're saying we shouldn't do
  226. # [16:48] <karl> Lachy: W3C doesn't prevent them to join the group.
  227. # [16:48] <gsnedders> karl: how can they, then?
  228. # [16:48] <oedipus> why then mark the WHAT WG draft as a "Call For Comments 27 October 2007". and shouldn't the rest of the introductory text at least mention that this is a mirror of the draft in W3C space, and encourage feedback to both fora?
  229. # [16:48] <karl> by going through their employers.
  230. # [16:48] <Lachy_> also, some people choose not to join the HTMLWG due to the volume of traffic and nonsense that goes on there sometimes, whereas they can easily subscribe and contribue to WHATWG since it's much easier to follow
  231. # [16:49] <gsnedders> karl: but if the W3C didn't have that requirement, we wouldn't be in this situation at the first time
  232. # [16:49] <gsnedders> *in the first place
  233. # [16:49] <karl> gsnedders: patent policy is a feature not a bug
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  235. # [16:49] <oedipus> lachy: i'm not going to deny anyone's right to develop or comment upon a specification, but there needs to be a central repository for feedback and issue tracking
  236. # [16:49] <gsnedders> karl: there are people who can't join the WG because their employer won't let them join the WG. it's not a theoretical issue.
  237. # [16:50] <Lachy_> oedipus, because it was a snapshot of the spec as it was on that date, and because publishing a spec there doesn't have to go through the same politics that it goes through in the HTMLWG
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  239. # [16:50] <karl> gsnedders: I would love to know who
  240. # [16:50] <oedipus> lachy, then why submit the spec to the W3C in the first place?
  241. # [16:50] <Lachy_> because we needed the patent policy for other groups of people and organisations to participate
  242. # [16:51] <MikeSmith> oedipus - a central place for issue tracking is doable
  243. # [16:51] <oedipus> right, the W3C issue tracker DanC set up
  244. # [16:51] <MikeSmith> a central place for feedback doesn't seem doable to me
  245. # [16:51] <MikeSmith> any editor can possibly get feedback from a lot of different places
  246. # [16:51] <Lachy_> oedipus, feedback comes from many places around the web, beyond even the HTMLWG and WHATWG lists.
  247. # [16:51] <gsnedders> karl: I know that Sam Ruby couldn't join for quite a while because of it, and I've heard of others
  248. # [16:51] <karl> s/politics/community life/
  249. # [16:52] <MikeSmith> ... feedback from multiple mailing lists, etc.
  250. # [16:52] <oedipus> MikeSmith: but if the feedback funneled to the WHAT WG isn't funneled to the HTML WG, we have separate conversations occuring over ostensively the same document
  251. # [16:52] <karl> gsnedders: yes but he finally joined
  252. # [16:52] <karl> nominated by his ac rep
  253. # [16:52] <MikeSmith> oedipus - we have that anyway, with any spec
  254. # [16:52] <gsnedders> karl: I've heard of others, though I can't remember off the top of my head
  255. # [16:52] <MikeSmith> even within the W3C, discussions may take place on multiple mailing lists
  256. # [16:52] <karl> gsnedders: I heard about black helicopters too flying low above cities
  257. # [16:53] <oedipus> yes, mikeS, but we don't have 2 specs that are self-identified as different drafts -- if what wg wants to host a snapshot, it should be of the W3C draft, and the W3C draft should be pointed to from the WHAT WG draft
  258. # [16:53] <MikeSmith> It seems to me it is the responsibility of HTMLWG members to join those other lists and follow conversations taking place there too
  259. # [16:53] <Lachy_> I said politics and meant it, I didn't mean community life.
  260. # [16:53] <karl> MikeSmith: ++
  261. # [16:53] <MikeSmith> ... if they want to be able to keep up with everything
  262. # [16:53] * Quits: DanC_lap (connolly@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
  263. # [16:54] <Lachy_> I think it's so ridiculous that we have to hold a vote just to get a FPWD out the door
  264. # [16:54] <karl> Lachy: you will learn it will take times, it took me time too. But I will not try to convince you, it would be useless. :) It's part of life cycle
  265. # [16:54] <gsnedders> oedipus: and should the W3C HTML WG draft point to the WHATWG draft, or does this only apply one way?
  266. # [16:54] <oedipus> MikeS: i'm not against outside feedback, i am concerned about 2 competing drafts, one branded with the W3C style and logo and one branded with the WHAT WG style and logo
  267. # [16:55] * Joins: gavin (gavin@99.227.30.12)
  268. # [16:55] <Lachy_> oedipus, the logo at the top doesn't make any difference. Both specs are identical in every important aspect
  269. # [16:55] <karl> oedipus: take it like translations of W3C specs. it is possible to translate W3C specs in other languages.
  270. # [16:56] <karl> the HTML 5 spec is under w3c document license.
  271. # [16:56] <oedipus> gsnedders: it applys only one way -- the WHAT WG draft was submitted to the HTML WG and a number of companies asked that it be considered the basis for the HTML WG's work -- if that is the case, then why have 2 different drafts?
  272. # [16:56] <karl> and that all matters
  273. # [16:56] <karl> the rest is not very interesting
  274. # [16:56] <MikeSmith> oedipus - we don't have 2 specs, we have one spec ... and I don't think the copies at the the WHATWG and W3C sites are "self identified as different drafts"
  275. # [16:56] <Lachy_> oedipus, why does it matter that the spec is mirrored?
  276. # [16:56] <oedipus> karl: it is possible to translate, but is there a need to translate from english to english?
  277. # [16:57] <oedipus> it doesn't matter that the spec is mirrored, as long as it is the same spec, full stop.
  278. # [16:57] <karl> then it is
  279. # [16:57] <MikeSmith> oedipus - and I don't understand how you see them as competing drafts
  280. # [16:57] <Lachy_> it is the same spec
  281. # [16:57] <Lachy_> different branding doesn't matter at all
  282. # [16:58] <MikeSmith> there is nothing the W3C team can or would want to do to prevent any editors or anybody else from mirroring a copy of a draft if the editors chooses to do so
  283. # [16:58] <karl> oedipus: whatwg feedback is a good source of input for HTML 5 work.
  284. # [16:58] * Quits: billmason (billmason@69.30.57.156) (Quit: .)
  285. # [16:58] <MikeSmith> oedipus - It is the same spec.
  286. # [16:59] <gsnedders> oedipus: do you want to disregard several years worth of comments?
  287. # [16:59] <oedipus> i'm not denying that whatwg feedback is a good source of input, but it is but one source, and the draft should be developed in one place -- if it is truly a mirror of the draft in W3C space, it should explicitly state that, and should actually mirror, rather than reflect
  288. # [17:00] <oedipus> gsnedders: no, i'm not disregarding "several years of feedback" i'm concerned that it will take many many more years of feedback under current conditions to arrive at a truly stable state
  289. # [17:00] * Philip wonders if it'd be difficult to put the multipage version in W3C space
  290. # [17:01] <MikeSmith> oedipus - The source is developed in one place, and published in two places.
  291. # [17:01] <MikeSmith> Philip - no, it would not be difficult
  292. # [17:01] <oedipus> i'm still wondering what lachy meant by "both specs are identical in every important aspect"
  293. # [17:02] * Joins: DanC_lap (connolly@128.30.52.30)
  294. # [17:02] <Philip> (Hmm, I was going to try fixing the multipage generator to be less bad, but I think I forgot about that months ago...)
  295. # [17:02] <oedipus> if they are mirrors of each other, they should be identical in EVERY aspect
  296. # [17:02] * DanC_lap is struggling to understand oedipus's concern
  297. # [17:02] <Lachy_> oedipus, the header of the spec is not really that important. The important aspects include everything from the Abstract down.
  298. # [17:03] <oedipus> if that's the case, then why insist on having 2 versions of ostensively the same spec? it simply doesn't make any sense...
  299. # [17:03] <DanC_lap> the header of the spec is quite important; it's about endorsement, branding, etc. the HTML 5 spec currently has two publishers. could be worse.
  300. # [17:03] <MikeSmith> oedipus - who would you suggest should enforce this identical-in-every-aspect constraint?
  301. # [17:03] <Philip> Lachy_: They have different abstracts
  302. # [17:04] <Lachy_> s/Abstract/TOC/
  303. # [17:04] <Philip> (and different "status of this document"s)
  304. # [17:04] <MikeSmith> ... and how would you imagine they'd be able to do it?
  305. # [17:04] <oedipus> 2 publishers, 2 fora, 2 streams
  306. # [17:04] <DanC_lap> it makes sense to me that there's still momentum in the WHATWG, oedipus
  307. # [17:04] <MikeSmith> Like I said, anybody is free to mirror anything from the W3C site if they choose to.
  308. # [17:04] <DanC_lap> no, they're not, MikeSmith
  309. # [17:04] <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - why not?
  310. # [17:04] * Philip likes the WHATWG green more than the W3C blue
  311. # [17:05] <DanC_lap> we have a mirroring policy
  312. # [17:05] * oedipus doesn't care if it is green, blue or purple -- it should be the same if it proclaims to be a "mirror"
  313. # [17:05] <DanC_lap> MikeSmith, see http://www.w3.org/1999/10/21-mirroring-policy
  314. # [17:05] <Lachy_> the W3C editor's draft is lacking a copyright statement
  315. # [17:05] <DanC_lap> it's not a mirror; it's separately published
  316. # [17:06] <oedipus> DanC: you hit on my concern -- it is separately published -- how and who ensures that they are in sync?
  317. # [17:06] <DanC_lap> hixie does
  318. # [17:06] <oedipus> by the way, DanC, regrets for not physically attending the f2f - medical problems made it feasible only to participate remotely
  319. # [17:06] <Lachy_> oedipus, they are both generated from the same source by the same editor
  320. # [17:06] <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - so I will qualify my statement by saying that anybody is free to mirror anything as long as they comply with the mirroring policy
  321. # [17:07] <DanC_lap> yes, sorry to hear that, oedipus ; your regrets were relayed to me by mutual friends
  322. # [17:07] <DanC_lap> yes, and the mirroring policy is basically: if you want to mirror anything, you need to mirror everything; we'll help you.
  323. # [17:07] <oedipus> i'm not anti-whatwg, i just want to ensure that there is one draft that is the basis for mirroring
  324. # [17:07] <MikeSmith> ah
  325. # [17:07] <Lachy_> it's also important that the WHATWG publish it because it has a much more liberal copyright than the W3C does
  326. # [17:07] <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - dinnet know that
  327. # [17:08] <Philip> Would the W3C licences permit publishing of modified versions of the spec, like for http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/spec.html ?
  328. # [17:08] <Lachy_> don't think so
  329. # [17:08] <gsnedders> there are people like myself and anne who have our own specs with parts of text based upon HTML 5 text
  330. # [17:08] <Lachy_> Philip, http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/2002/copyright-documents-20021231
  331. # [17:08] <oedipus> how does the WHAT WG and W3C copyright differences affect the spec? i raised this as a concern before (also in regards differing copyright statements in WF2)
  332. # [17:09] <DanC_lap> I'm not an expert in what our licenses might allow. We do have a copyright faq http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/IPR-FAQ-20000620
  333. # [17:09] <oedipus> DanC: thanks for the pointers
  334. # [17:09] <DanC_lap> welcome
  335. # [17:09] <oedipus> i just think we need to step back, and align all of the ducks in an orderly row...
  336. # [17:10] <DanC_lap> the ducks seem to be having a pretty good time wandering around
  337. # [17:10] * Quits: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Leaving)
  338. # [17:10] <DanC_lap> if we put out food, they'll come by
  339. # [17:10] <Lachy_> the W3C's document licence does indeed allow copies of the spec to be hosted anywhere, but doesn't allow modifications
  340. # [17:11] <Lachy_> they just require the inclusion of the copyright notice
  341. # [17:11] <oedipus> the momentum of the 2 groups should spur one another, not be mutually exclusive (albeit by individuals' individual choices)
  342. # [17:12] <Lachy_> oedipus, the barrier between the two groups is mostly artificial as far as work on the spec is concerned.
  343. # [17:12] <oedipus> that's why i didn't object to the issuing of the draft, but expressed concerns i would like to allay before giving a thumbs up --
  344. # [17:13] <oedipus> lachy: so whatever we can do to break down those artificial barriers, the better the growth and maturity of the HTML5 draft
  345. # [17:13] * Joins: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30)
  346. # [17:13] <DanC_lap> trackbot-ng, status
  347. # [17:13] * trackbot-ng knows about the following 2 users: Chris, Dan
  348. # [17:14] <DanC_lap> oedipus, hurl me an url for "Marghanita da Cruz's comments"? (cf http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wdhdp/results )
  349. # [17:15] <oedipus> DanC: re the ducks, we should be attempting to get them eating out of the same trough -- or at least to swim in one anothers ponds more often
  350. # [17:15] <DanC_lap> oh, only to some extent
  351. # [17:15] <DanC_lap> yes, ponds more often
  352. # [17:16] <oedipus> DanC: the comments by marghanita da cruz are in her reply to the same question
  353. # [17:16] <DanC_lap> too bad you couldn't make it to the pond here in Boston. :-/
  354. # [17:16] <DanC_lap> ah...
  355. # [17:17] <oedipus> thanks, DanC -- i think my water is getting a bit "stale" here and am chomping at the bit (to mix animal metaphors) to actually get to meet and sit down and discuss thing with others
  356. # [17:17] * Joins: dglazkov (dglazkov@65.81.81.30)
  357. # [17:17] <DanC_lap> ACTION DanC: consider "inconsistency in the document is the use of examples" from da Cruz in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wdhdp/results
  358. # [17:17] * RRSAgent records action 12
  359. # [17:17] <DanC_lap> ACTION: Dan consider "inconsistency in the document is the use of examples" from da Cruz in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wdhdp/results
  360. # [17:17] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  361. # [17:17] * RRSAgent records action 13
  362. # [17:17] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-1 - Consider \"inconsistency in the document is the use of examples\" from da Cruz in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wdhdp/results [on Dan Connolly - due 2007-11-15].
  363. # [17:18] <dglazkov> wow, this is cool
  364. # [17:18] <dglazkov> DanC_lap, have a sec?
  365. # [17:20] <oedipus> perhaps what is needed is someone (or someones) to commit issues raised and debated in the WHAT WG fora to the HTML WG's Issue Tracker?
  366. # [17:21] * Joins: timbl_ (timbl@63.119.45.160)
  367. # [17:21] <Lachy_> oedipus, sure, that can be done for future discussions
  368. # [17:22] <oedipus> lachy: what about the backlog of issues raised by whatwg participants which hixie has often cited?
  369. # [17:22] <Lachy_> but the existing feedback needs to continue to be processed as it currently is, since it would take too much effort to process and log all 3000+ emails hixie has in his archive
  370. # [17:24] <oedipus> it's like every other human endeavor -- the more we work together, the less antagonism (real or perceived) between the 2 working groups, but there has to be 1 draft off of which we are all working, and i believe that to be the draft submitted to the W3C
  371. # [17:27] * Joins: robburns (robburns@24.1.195.65)
  372. # [17:27] * Joins: jun (fujisawa_j@63.119.45.120)
  373. # [17:29] * Joins: mjs (mjs@68.160.33.79)
  374. # [17:29] <oedipus> DanC: did i ever officially (via the list) report back that i completed my first action item from the last HTML WG telecon? at 1:10 PM EDT 11/1/2007 i sent the following: 1) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Nov/0001.html and 2) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Nov/0007.html (the same post in both places)
  375. # [17:30] <oedipus> i'm also working on the CSS action item, as well
  376. # [17:30] * Quits: Lachy_ (Lachy@213.236.208.22) (Quit: Leaving)
  377. # [17:32] * Quits: mjs (mjs@68.160.33.79) (Quit: mjs)
  378. # [17:33] * Joins: mjs (mjs@68.160.33.79)
  379. # [17:33] * Quits: robburns (robburns@24.1.195.65) (Quit: robburns)
  380. # [17:33] * Joins: robburns (robburns@24.1.195.65)
  381. # [17:33] * Joins: matt (matt@128.30.52.30)
  382. # [17:34] <mjs> hey everyone
  383. # [17:35] * Joins: aaronlev (chatzilla@63.119.44.88)
  384. # [17:35] <aaronlev> DanC_lap: when do you want mike to do the aria demo?
  385. # [17:36] <aaronlev> when does the meeting start, etc.
  386. # [17:36] <oedipus> 13:30
  387. # [17:36] <aaronlev> k
  388. # [17:36] <aaronlev> oedipus: i had to throw out what diego built
  389. # [17:36] <DanC_lap> I haven't picked a time for the aria demo; can we keep it loose? or is somebody coordinating across rooms?
  390. # [17:36] <oedipus> yeah, i noticed that -- i haven't heard back from him yet
  391. # [17:37] <aaronlev> DanC_lap: that's fine as long as we have a ballpark
  392. # [17:37] <aaronlev> we'll come in after lunch
  393. # [17:37] <aaronlev> oedipus: i went back to a prev version of the mozilla.org example and fixed it
  394. # [17:37] <oedipus> aaronlev: good news! hans hillen should also be involved in testing and sample coding
  395. # [17:37] <DanC_lap> aaronlev, does http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07 give you enough of a ballpark?
  396. # [17:38] <aaronlev> oedipus: yes he should
  397. # [17:38] <aaronlev> DanC_lap: yes, thanks
  398. # [17:38] <aaronlev> oedipus: the new crash in ff3 was actually 2 separate problems, i have fixes pending
  399. # [17:38] <oedipus> aaronlev: i'll ping hans offline and let him know that he posted his query to the right place
  400. # [17:38] <aaronlev> oedipus: but for now it's wise to avoid sub-sub aria menus with that example in ff3
  401. # [17:39] <aaronlev> oedipus: i want people to put their testing results in the page everyone looks at, can you do that?
  402. # [17:39] <oedipus> aaronlev: i was considering a menu only example to precede the spreadsheet, which introduces 2 concepts -- might be better to demonstrate a menu, before demonstrating a menu in conjunction with another widget
  403. # [17:39] <aaronlev> oedipus: scott haeger just updated it to add Orca results, and I've asked Charles Chen to do it with Fire Vox
  404. # [17:40] <aaronlev> oedipus: mike is going to do a tree view
  405. # [17:40] <oedipus> aaronlev: yes, i will use the test result matrix at mozilla
  406. # [17:40] <aaronlev> i think that's a more valid example anyway
  407. # [17:40] <oedipus> aaronlev: i agree -- plus, the tree views work rather well
  408. # [17:40] <aaronlev> because we can show it using shipping dojo widgets
  409. # [17:40] <oedipus> aaronlev: precisely
  410. # [17:40] * DanC_lap wonders about , vs : in IRC... RRSAgent's sense is different from the IRC community norm...
  411. # [17:40] <aaronlev> working in actual released software
  412. # [17:41] <aaronlev> oedipus: this is the page that has the compatibility matrix, i really want to keep it up-to-date: http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA:_Accessible_Rich_Internet_Applications
  413. # [17:41] <oedipus> aaronlev: i think things will shake out well, now that there's a central repository for test results and a designated list (wai-xtech) for discussion/coordination
  414. # [17:41] <oedipus> aaronlev: thanks for the pointer
  415. # [17:43] <oedipus> aaronlev: chaals mcn was testing the materials with opera on a mac -- don't know if he has any useful data yet or not
  416. # [17:44] * DanC_lap figures he'll use a text editor to address the , vs : thingy
  417. # [17:45] <oedipus> DanC: does oedipus: and oedipus, have a different meaning in RRSAgent? does a colon indicate attribution or an address to another user, or should that be handled with a comma?
  418. # [17:46] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233) (Ping timeout)
  419. # [17:47] <DanC_lap> the RRSAgent/scribe.perl tools treat : as attribution (a la Juliet: Romeo, Romeo ...). In W3C meetings, we tend to use traditional (chicago manual of style) comma for direct address
  420. # [17:47] <oedipus> thanks for the clarification -- i've just followed others' (apparently bad) practices
  421. # [17:49] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@63.119.44.88) (Ping timeout)
  422. # [17:49] <DanC_lap> whether the evolution in norms is good or bad is hard to say... it's a bit of a pain given current scribe.perl design
  423. # [17:50] <DanC_lap> I think it's not cost-effective to train people in this channel to reconfigure their IRC clients and such.
  424. # [17:50] <oedipus> agreed
  425. # [17:50] <DanC_lap> I can just use a text editor to supplement scribe.perl
  426. # [17:52] <karl> A new version of scribe.perl is at work with a complete refactoring and test cases. If you need features, it might be good to propose things. Send an email to david booth cc: www-archive
  427. # [17:53] <DanC_lap> does anybody know Philip TAYLOR well enough to understand his formal objection in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd11spec/results better than I do?
  428. # [17:54] <DanC_lap> MikeSmith, do you know him?
  429. # [17:54] <DanC_lap> ah... thanks for the reminder, karl
  430. # [17:54] <DanC_lap> karl, do you have bandwidth to chat with Philip TAYLOR?
  431. # [17:55] <oedipus> DanC: do you mean quote No, we have not yet agreed the Design Principles. Without those, the specification has no formal basis for existence, and premature publication could jeopardise the reputation of the Working Group. unquote?
  432. # [17:55] * Quits: jun (fujisawa_j@63.119.45.120) (Ping timeout)
  433. # [17:55] <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - don't know him
  434. # [17:55] <DanC_lap> yes, that one.
  435. # [17:56] <mjs> is it easy to obtain lunch and coffee somewhere at the hotel?
  436. # [17:56] <DanC_lap> do you have bandwidth to phone him or something, MikeSmith ?
  437. # [17:56] <mjs> I'm thinking of heading over soon
  438. # [17:56] <DanC_lap> it's straightforward though expensive, I think, mjs
  439. # [17:57] <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - I'd be glad to call him if you think that would help
  440. # [17:57] <mjs> other option is I could walk the other way from where I'm staying to Central Square
  441. # [17:57] <DanC_lap> trackbot-ng, status
  442. # [17:57] * trackbot-ng knows about the following 2 users: Chris, Dan
  443. # [17:57] <MikeSmith> mjs - there is rumored to be a restaurant about 10 minutes walk
  444. # [17:57] <DanC_lap> MikeSmith, why doesn't trackbot-ng know the other folks in the issue tracking group?
  445. # [17:57] <DanC_lap> I want to give you an action
  446. # [17:57] <oedipus> DanC, i'm not quite sure, and don't know PhilipT personally
  447. # [17:57] <karl> DanC_lap: I can try to discuss with him. :) not sure that he will agree, but I can try. It might be just misunderstandings
  448. # [17:58] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@88.91.99.29) (Quit: Leaving)
  449. # [17:58] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@88.91.99.29)
  450. # [17:58] <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - dunno. I think I may need to ask systeam to add me
  451. # [17:58] <mjs> MikeSmith: I know the area pretty well, just not the hotel
  452. # [17:58] <DanC_lap> right, karl, I'm not asking you to convince him of anything; just listen
  453. # [17:58] * mjs is willing to blow some cash for the sake of laziness
  454. # [17:58] <MikeSmith> mjs - they got candy bars and potato chips in the convenience store in the lobby
  455. # [17:58] <DanC_lap> MikeSmith, you're already added to http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/ ; somehow trackbot-ng doesn't seem to be consulting that list
  456. # [17:58] <MikeSmith> and cookies
  457. # [17:59] * karl wonders if there is shuttles from Galleria to the hotel
  458. # [17:59] <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - will ask on sysreq now
  459. # [17:59] <karl> because there is food at the Galleria Cambridge
  460. # [17:59] <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - hang one
  461. # [17:59] <MikeSmith> on
  462. # [18:00] <MikeSmith> try ACTION: Michael(tm) maybe
  463. # [18:00] <DanC_lap> no... look:
  464. # [18:00] <DanC_lap> trackbot-ng, status
  465. # [18:00] * trackbot-ng knows about the following 2 users: Chris, Dan
  466. # [18:00] <MikeSmith> oh
  467. # [18:00] <MikeSmith> I see now
  468. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, reload
  469. # [18:01] <trackbot-ng> Reloading Tracker config
  470. # [18:01] * trackbot-ng is loading HTML Issue Tracking data...
  471. # [18:01] * trackbot-ng found 11 users
  472. # [18:01] <trackbot-ng> Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
  473. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, statsu
  474. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, status
  475. # [18:01] * trackbot-ng knows about the following 11 users: Chris, Shawn, Dan, Anne, Michael(tm), Maciej, James, Gregory, David, Ian, Julian
  476. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - there you go
  477. # [18:02] * Quits: robburns (robburns@24.1.195.65) (Quit: robburns)
  478. # [18:02] <DanC_lap> thanks... now... did it lose the action I gave above? I guess it's easy enough to do again...
  479. # [18:02] <oedipus> DanC: i think PhilipT's position hasn't changed since the first polls -- he'd rather have a statement of design principles released, garner feedback, and hammered into concensus and rereleased before releasing a working draft
  480. # [18:02] <DanC_lap> ACTION: Dan consider "inconsistency in the document is the use of examples" from da Cruz in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wdhdp/results
  481. # [18:02] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  482. # [18:02] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2 - Consider \"inconsistency in the document is the use of examples\" from da Cruz in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wdhdp/results [on Dan Connolly - due 2007-11-15].
  483. # [18:02] * RRSAgent records action 14
  484. # [18:03] <DanC_lap> oops; dup. oh well
  485. # [18:03] * MikeSmith reckons it would likely be better for karl to talk with that particular Philip Taylor than it would be for me ...
  486. # [18:03] <DanC_lap> I'm gonna assign the formal objection action to MikeSmith cuz he's in the tracker, but you're more than welcome to help, karl
  487. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> karl - おねがいします
  488. # [18:05] <DanC_lap> ACTION: Michael (tm) contact Philip TAYLOR to help the chairs better understand his formal objection in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd11spec/results
  489. # [18:05] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  490. # [18:05] <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Michael
  491. # [18:05] * RRSAgent records action 15
  492. # [18:05] * MikeSmith notes that he is _a_ tracker but is _the_ wrangler
  493. # [18:05] <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - gotta do Michael(tm)
  494. # [18:05] <DanC_lap> ACTION: Michael(tm) contact Philip TAYLOR to help the chairs better understand his formal objection in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd11spec/results
  495. # [18:05] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  496. # [18:05] * RRSAgent records action 16
  497. # [18:05] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-3 - Contact Philip TAYLOR to help the chairs better understand his formal objection in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd11spec/results [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2007-11-15].
  498. # [18:06] * MikeSmith notes it's getting near lunchtime and patent policy discussion has made me really hungry
  499. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> that breakfast of Twix bar and tea don't quite keep me going
  500. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> can of Guiness Extra Stout at 10:30 helped a bit though
  501. # [18:08] <oedipus> MikeSmith: so, until 13:30 local time, the channel is open for outside the face2face discussions?
  502. # [18:08] <MikeSmith> oedipus - which channel
  503. # [18:08] <DanC_lap> hmm... I think I'm gonna need IRC watchers in the meeting. maybe that'll take care of itself
  504. # [18:09] <oedipus> Mike(tm) Smith, well, if this channel is reserved for the f2f we can move to another? or is there already an html-f2f channel?
  505. # [18:09] <DanC_lap> this is the channel for the ftf
  506. # [18:09] <oedipus> ok
  507. # [18:10] <DanC_lap> people can make side channels for break-outs or whatever, provided they invite RRSAgent along and make logs world-access
  508. # [18:10] <oedipus> will keep the side conversations to a minumum and use the q commands to enter the queue after 13:30
  509. # [18:10] <MikeSmith> oedipus - for q, I guess we'll need to /invite Zakim
  510. # [18:10] <oedipus> DOH!
  511. # [18:11] <MikeSmith> we could go ahead and do now I guess
  512. # [18:11] <DanC_lap> sure
  513. # [18:11] <oedipus> it makes sense to me, but i'm just a schlub
  514. # [18:11] <DanC_lap> I wonder if zakim can be the keeper of the unconference session titles and places!
  515. # [18:12] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  516. # [18:12] <DanC_lap> agenda + Welcome/Convene
  517. # [18:12] * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
  518. # [18:12] * Quits: timbl_ (timbl@63.119.45.160) (Quit: timbl_)
  519. # [18:12] <DanC_lap> agenda + Which end of W3C is up? Q&A session
  520. # [18:12] * Zakim notes agendum 2 added
  521. # [18:13] <DanC_lap> agenda + ARIA demo Al Gilman]
  522. # [18:13] * Zakim notes agendum 3 added
  523. # [18:13] <DanC_lap> agenda 3 = ARIA demo [Al Gilman]
  524. # [18:13] * Zakim notes agendum 3 replaced
  525. # [18:13] <DanC_lap> agenda + Data Tables [Ben Millard]
  526. # [18:13] * Zakim notes agendum 4 added
  527. # [18:13] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.119.44.78) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  528. # [18:13] <DanC_lap> agenda + Demo: HTML+CSS as Flash Killer [Maciej Stachowiak]
  529. # [18:13] * Zakim notes agendum 5 added
  530. # [18:14] <DanC_lap> agenda + Unconference pitches
  531. # [18:14] * Zakim notes agendum 6 added
  532. # [18:14] <DanC_lap> this will work great; zakim can time speakers for the 1/2/3 minute unconference pitches
  533. # [18:14] * DanC_lap has been stressed a bit about how that stuff would work. whew.
  534. # [18:15] <DanC_lap> Thanks for Zakim, ralph!
  535. # [18:15] * Joins: anne (annevk@63.119.45.192)
  536. # [18:15] <DanC_lap> RRSAgent, pointer?
  537. # [18:15] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-irc#T17-14-56
  538. # [18:16] <anne> is there place so sit and WiFi on the sixteenth floor already?
  539. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> anne - dunno. Haven't been up there yet today
  540. # [18:18] <anne> k, thanks
  541. # [18:19] * anne sits in the lobby atm
  542. # [18:19] * anne wnet out for a walk and ipod stuff
  543. # [18:20] * Joins: jgraham_ (jgraham@63.119.45.250)
  544. # [18:20] * Quits: kazuhito (kazuhito@63.119.45.157) (Quit: Computer goes to sleep!)
  545. # [18:22] * MikeSmith heads off to lunch ... will be in meeting room from 1pm or thereabouts
  546. # [18:22] * Quits: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Leaving)
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  570. # [19:22] * Quits: mjs (mjs@63.119.44.165) (Quit: mjs)
  571. # [19:23] <MikeSmith> Lachy - no streaming audio, unfortunately
  572. # [19:23] <MikeSmith> but we may be able to set up a telephone bridge
  573. # [19:23] <MikeSmith> if you want to call in
  574. # [19:23] * Joins: mjs (mjs@63.119.44.165)
  575. # [19:27] * Joins: Philip_ (philip@80.177.163.133)
  576. # [19:27] <Hixie> in case anyone is on the 16th floor wondering where everyone else is, the meeting is now on the 14th floor
  577. # [19:28] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07
  578. # [19:28] <Hixie> Zakim, agenda?
  579. # [19:28] <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
  580. # [19:28] <Zakim> 1. Welcome/Convene [from DanC_lap]
  581. # [19:28] <Zakim> 2. Which end of W3C is up? Q&A session [from DanC_lap]
  582. # [19:28] <Zakim> 3. ARIA demo [Al Gilman]
  583. # [19:28] <Zakim> 4. Data Tables [from Ben Millard via DanC_lap]
  584. # [19:28] <Zakim> 5. Demo: HTML+CSS as Flash Killer [from Maciej Stachowiak via DanC_lap]
  585. # [19:28] * Joins: myakura (myakura@63.119.44.133)
  586. # [19:28] * Joins: Nick (nickVdB@63.119.45.133)
  587. # [19:28] <Zakim> 6. Unconference pitches [from DanC_lap]
  588. # [19:29] * Joins: Chris (CWilso@63.119.44.171)
  589. # [19:29] * anne wonders if the meeting started
  590. # [19:29] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.119.44.78)
  591. # [19:29] <Chris> not yet, just prepping
  592. # [19:29] * Joins: lm (W3CIRC@63.119.45.147)
  593. # [19:29] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft inutes
  594. # [19:29] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'please draft inutes', MikeSmith. Try /msg RRSAgent help
  595. # [19:29] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  596. # [19:29] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  597. # [19:29] * Joins: mauro (mauro@128.30.52.30)
  598. # [19:29] * Chris is now known as ChrisWilson
  599. # [19:29] <anne> k
  600. # [19:29] * Quits: Philip (philip@80.177.163.133) (Ping timeout)
  601. # [19:29] * Hixie changes topic to 'HTML WG meeting in Empress Ballroom on the 14th floor - http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07 - http://esw.w3.org/topic/ZakimDemo'
  602. # [19:30] * Joins: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30)
  603. # [19:30] * Joins: Marcos (chatzilla@12.6.206.9)
  604. # [19:31] <MikeSmith> Meeting: HTML Working Group November f2f Day One
  605. # [19:31] <MikeSmith> Chair: DanConnolly, ChrisWilson
  606. # [19:31] <MikeSmith> Present+ KarlDubost
  607. # [19:31] <Lachy> MikeSmith, unfortunately, I can't call in, since I don't have a phone at home.
  608. # [19:32] <MikeSmith> Present+ MikkoHonkala
  609. # [19:32] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30)
  610. # [19:32] <MikeSmith> Present+ MichaelCooper
  611. # [19:32] <Lachy> MikeSmith, it would be good if you could set up skype
  612. # [19:32] <MikeSmith> Present+ MarcinHanclik
  613. # [19:32] <MikeSmith> Lachy - no can do
  614. # [19:32] * Joins: justin (justin@63.119.45.74)
  615. # [19:32] <MikeSmith> Present+ HenriSivonen
  616. # [19:32] <MikeSmith> Present+ JamesGraham
  617. # [19:33] <MikeSmith> Present+ AnneVanKesteren
  618. # [19:33] <MikeSmith> Present+ fromBoeing
  619. # [19:33] <MikeSmith> Present+ JoshueOConnor
  620. # [19:33] * Joins: timbl (timbl@63.119.45.160)
  621. # [19:33] <MikeSmith> Present+ MarcusMilke
  622. # [19:33] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
  623. # [19:34] * Philip_ is now known as Philip
  624. # [19:34] <MikeSmith> Present+ BobHopgood
  625. # [19:34] <MikeSmith> Present+ Mauro
  626. # [19:34] <MikeSmith> Present+ TexTexin
  627. # [19:34] * Joins: smedero (smedero@63.119.44.183)
  628. # [19:34] <MikeSmith> Present+ TravisFromMicrosoft
  629. # [19:34] <MikeSmith> Present+ MasatakaYakura
  630. # [19:34] <smedero> Ugh, traffic - just got to the Hyatt.
  631. # [19:35] <MikeSmith> Present+ KazuhitoKidachi
  632. # [19:35] <smedero> Is the meeting on the 14th floor still?
  633. # [19:35] <MikeSmith> Present+ DaveSinger
  634. # [19:35] <MikeSmith> Present+ MaciejStokowiak
  635. # [19:35] * mauro to smedero, yes
  636. # [19:35] * Joins: tantek (tantek@70.13.24.31)
  637. # [19:35] <smedero> thanks
  638. # [19:35] * Quits: smedero (smedero@63.119.44.183) (Quit: smedero)
  639. # [19:35] <MikeSmith> Present+ DavidBaron
  640. # [19:35] <MikeSmith> Present+ LesliefromLosAlamos
  641. # [19:36] <MikeSmith> Present+ NickFromLosAlamos
  642. # [19:36] <MikeSmith> Present+ AaronLeventhal
  643. # [19:36] <MikeSmith> Present+ MikeSmith
  644. # [19:36] * Joins: karl (karlcow@128.30.52.30)
  645. # [19:36] <anne> Zakim, close agendum 1
  646. # [19:36] <Zakim> agendum 1, Welcome/Convene, closed
  647. # [19:36] <MikeSmith> Zakim, close agendum 1
  648. # [19:36] <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
  649. # [19:36] <Zakim> 2. Which end of W3C is up? Q&A session [from DanC_lap]
  650. # [19:36] <Zakim> agendum 1, Welcome/Convene, closed
  651. # [19:36] <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
  652. # [19:36] <Zakim> 2. Which end of W3C is up? Q&A session [from DanC_lap]
  653. # [19:36] * Joins: dsinger (daithesong@63.119.45.128)
  654. # [19:36] * anne .. hah
  655. # [19:37] * MikeSmith wonders who is scribing? me?
  656. # [19:37] * oedipus if mike smith can't set up a skype conference call to broadcast audio there are probably several people in the room with skype that can simply turn their laptop's internal mic on -- in any event, should anyone decide to audiocast, my skypename is: oedipusnj
  657. # [19:38] * karl will help MikeSmith
  658. # [19:38] * Joins: mikko_honkala (mikko_honk@63.119.45.209)
  659. # [19:38] * Joins: Markus (winterwolf@63.119.44.149)
  660. # [19:38] <MikeSmith> oedipus - DanC says he would rather not right now, but we can play around later at the break
  661. # [19:39] * Joins: smedero (smedero@63.119.44.183)
  662. # [19:39] <MikeSmith> I missed a few people when I did the present list
  663. # [19:39] <MikeSmith> So if you are on IRC and don't see your name on the following list:
  664. # [19:39] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  665. # [19:39] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  666. # [19:39] * Joins: Pion (3f772c3c@128.30.52.23)
  667. # [19:39] <mauro> zakim, who is here?
  668. # [19:39] <Zakim> sorry, mauro, I don't know what conference this is
  669. # [19:39] <Zakim> On IRC I see Pion, smedero, Markus, mikko_honkala, dsinger, karl, tantek, timbl, justin, Marcos, MichaelC, mauro, lm, dbaron, ChrisWilson, Nick, myakura, Philip, mjs, MikeSmith,
  670. # [19:39] <Zakim> ... kazuhito, aaronlev, anne, jgraham_, hober, gavin, robburns, aroben, Zakim, Lachy, matt, dglazkov, hasather, oedipus, tH, ROBOd, Lionheart, Hixie, heycam, laplink, bogi,
  671. # [19:39] <Zakim> ... gsnedders, Thezilch, jane, krijnh, deltab, Dashiva, jmb, Kuruma, gavin_, beowulf, jgraham, drry, hsivonen, trackbot-ng, Bob_le_Pointu, RRSAgent
  672. # [19:39] <karl> [Danc is explaining the process document with a drawing of Ian Hickson]
  673. # [19:40] <MikeSmith> ...then please do a "Present+ YourName" to add yourself to the present list
  674. # [19:40] <MikeSmith> please
  675. # [19:40] <smedero> Present +ShawnMedero
  676. # [19:40] <hober> What if you're in IRC but not at the TP?
  677. # [19:40] * anne likes how snakes can go from a public draft straight to PR
  678. # [19:40] <smedero> heh.
  679. # [19:41] <MikeSmith> Present+ NoahMendelsohn
  680. # [19:41] <Hixie> anne: snakes go from the head to the tail
  681. # [19:41] <anne> http://ln.hixie.ch/media/comics/hixie/w3c-snakes-and-ladders.png
  682. # [19:41] <anne> Hixie, oh, so I got them backwards
  683. # [19:41] <MikeSmith> hober - then please do, e.g., YourName_IRC_only or something like that
  684. # [19:42] <ChrisWilson> is this an internationalization difference? (In the US I think the game is marketed as chutes & ladders)
  685. # [19:42] <anne> (the above ln.hixie.ch image is being discussed)
  686. # [19:42] <MikeSmith> Present+ ShawnHenry
  687. # [19:42] <karl> anne, there are steps you can jump over. Basically there are entrance criterias not exit criterias
  688. # [19:43] <MikeSmith> Present+ OlivierTheroux
  689. # [19:43] <hober> Present+ EdwardOConnor_IRC_only
  690. # [19:43] <MikeSmith> Present+ BertBos
  691. # [19:43] <gsnedders> Present +GeoffreySneddon_IRC_only
  692. # [19:43] <hsivonen> so the snakes went from each stage backwards
  693. # [19:43] <mauro> Meeting: HTML WG F2F Meeting
  694. # [19:43] <Lachy> Present+ LachlanHunt_IRC_only
  695. # [19:44] * Joins: jun (fujisawa_j@63.119.45.120)
  696. # [19:44] <gsnedders> Present+ GeoffreySneddon_IRC_only
  697. # [19:44] <MikeSmith> q?
  698. # [19:44] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  699. # [19:44] <mauro> q?
  700. # [19:44] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  701. # [19:44] <smedero> Present+ ShawnMedero
  702. # [19:44] * smedero made a stupid typo
  703. # [19:44] <gavin_> Present+ GavinSharp_IRC_only
  704. # [19:44] * Joins: Dennis (forty4@63.119.45.205)
  705. # [19:46] <dglazkov> Present+ DimitriGlazkov_IRC_only
  706. # [19:46] * Quits: robburns (robburns@24.1.195.65) (Quit: robburns)
  707. # [19:47] <karl> Topic: introduction on aria
  708. # [19:47] <MichaelC> ARIA Overview: http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/aria
  709. # [19:47] <hsivonen> Ben arrived
  710. # [19:47] <MikeSmith> Aron Leventhal speaking about ARIA ... ARIA intro
  711. # [19:47] <ChrisWilson> http://www.w3.org/TR/aria-roadmap/ is a useful start too.
  712. # [19:48] <MikeSmith> 32 or more states in a typical accessibility ABI(?)
  713. # [19:48] <MichaelC> s/ABI(?)/API
  714. # [19:48] <hsivonen> MSAA
  715. # [19:49] <MikeSmith> aaronlev : MSAA (Microsoft Active Accessibility) ...
  716. # [19:49] <MikeSmith> Mike Spilachi arrives
  717. # [19:49] <MichaelC> s/Spilachi/Squillace
  718. # [19:49] <ChrisWilson> Good overview/start to MSAA is http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms697707.aspx
  719. # [19:49] <MikeSmith> aaronlev : HTML is missing basic things that we have on the desktop ...
  720. # [19:50] <MikeSmith> ... ridiculous, for example, that we don't have a tree-view [mechanism] in HTML
  721. # [19:50] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30)
  722. # [19:50] <MikeSmith> ... widget toolkit takes care of a lot of the work
  723. # [19:51] * Joins: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30)
  724. # [19:51] <gsnedders> The number of common widgets that need to be implemented time and time again with JS is maddening
  725. # [19:51] <MikeSmith> ... because of DOM ability for mutation events, can fire an event for [accessibility needs]
  726. # [19:51] <hsivonen> info on ARIA: http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA:_Accessible_Rich_Internet_Applications/Relationship_to_HTML_FAQ
  727. # [19:51] <MikeSmith> ... the hard work is on the side of the JS author
  728. # [19:52] <MikeSmith> Scribenick: MikeSmith
  729. # [19:52] <gsnedders> In parts you'll never get as good accessibility with JS as you would with native widgets
  730. # [19:52] <gsnedders> s/In parts/At times/
  731. # [19:52] <MikeSmith> [getting sound from Mike Spilachi's machine plugged in]
  732. # [19:52] * Joins: Bert (bbos@128.30.52.28)
  733. # [19:53] <MichaelC> s/Spilachi/Squillace/G
  734. # [19:53] * shepazu notes that joint HTML/WebAPI members might want to watch the WebAPI IRC
  735. # [19:53] <ChrisWilson> gsnedders - that's the semantic problem ARIA tries to address
  736. # [19:53] <MikeSmith> Marcos is videotaping Mike's demo
  737. # [19:53] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  738. # [19:53] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  739. # [19:53] <gsnedders> ChrisWilson: even with the complete ARIA, I still have my doubts about whether we can recreate everything
  740. # [19:54] <gsnedders> [that could be done natively]
  741. # [19:54] <ChrisWilson> by adding all the relevant controls and semantics to HTML, you mean?
  742. # [19:54] <MikeSmith> Mike slows down his JAWS to 20% and mjs jokes it reminds him of TimBL slowed-down take from yesterday
  743. # [19:55] * ChrisWilson thinks Tim slowed down to more than 20%.
  744. # [19:55] <MikeSmith> [Mike is pressing controls in a webapp and getting feedback from jaws]
  745. # [19:56] <gsnedders> ChrisWilson: the diversity of AT platforms and how they are implemented makes me wonder whether one thing could really support everything
  746. # [19:56] <MikeSmith> Demo is "Happy Time Pizza On-line Ordering System"
  747. # [19:56] <anne> (ARIA is very low-level)
  748. # [19:56] * Quits: mjs (mjs@63.119.44.165) (Quit: mjs)
  749. # [19:56] * Joins: mjs (mjs@63.119.44.165)
  750. # [19:56] * MikeSmith wonders if somebody already put the URL for the demo?
  751. # [19:57] <ChrisWilson> that's true, but the idea of ARIA (and similar ATs) is to allow mapping application components to a smaller, more high-level semantic set of controls.
  752. # [19:57] <oedipus> no
  753. # [19:57] <olivier> Mikesmith: I can see the screen, but the URI is a tad long
  754. # [19:57] <ChrisWilson> sorry, not perfect decsription.
  755. # [19:57] * oedipus asks which widget is it -- i can probably get the uri if you tell me
  756. # [19:57] <MikeSmith> aaronlev - can you paste in the URL for the demo please
  757. # [19:57] <oedipus> which widget is it -- i can probably get the uri if you tell me
  758. # [19:58] <karl> http://test.cita.uiuc.edu/aria/tabpanel/view_xhtml.php
  759. # [19:58] <oedipus> thanks
  760. # [19:58] <ChrisWilson> the idea is to capture the semantic roles of components; there may be multiple different components that act as a "button"
  761. # [19:58] <MichaelC> Most of this demo comes from http://test.cita.uiuc.edu/aria/
  762. # [19:58] * Lachy gets a blank page at that URI
  763. # [19:58] <aaronlev> http://archive.dojotoolkit.org/nightly/dojotoolkit/dijit/tests/test_Tree.html
  764. # [19:58] <MikeSmith> [mike is now doing Dijit Tree Test demo]
  765. # [19:58] <dglazkov> t.v. raman once mentioned using mobile gmail as the accessible (and quality) equivalent to the full-blown gmail
  766. # [19:59] <anne> ChrisWilson, the idea is that the author implements the accessibility on top of a widget he already created
  767. # [19:59] <dglazkov> perhaps that's the solution
  768. # [19:59] * anne considers that to be a low-level API
  769. # [19:59] <MikeSmith> mike: If you use Dojo toolkit now, a lot of [this] is already built into the library.
  770. # [19:59] <dglazkov> instead of taking a complex Web app and attaching AT hooks to it
  771. # [20:00] <MikeSmith> aaronlev : Mike is using the standard keys for a tree view
  772. # [20:00] <dglazkov> build your app with simple blocks, available in HTML
  773. # [20:00] <dglazkov> and use JS to enhance the UX
  774. # [20:00] <gsnedders> if I create a slider in JS, is there any way it could behave identically to a native one on OS X using ARIA?
  775. # [20:00] <MikeSmith> mike: just as if I were in Windows Explorer ... just like on a desktop
  776. # [20:00] <ChrisWilson> anne - umm, sort of. the idea is that the author describes the semantic role of their components, so that accessibility tools can make use of it
  777. # [20:00] * Joins: tlr (roessler@128.30.52.30)
  778. # [20:00] <oedipus> the dijit tree test works on my FF3 install (last release) with JAWS 8.0.2173
  779. # [20:00] <dglazkov> while providing the opportunity to turn off the enhancement
  780. # [20:00] <MikeSmith> olivier : Is there a specific intonation for indicating [this metadata]
  781. # [20:01] <anne> ChrisWilson, is it used for anything else?
  782. # [20:01] <gsnedders> (even if we ignore the visible part of the UI for now)
  783. # [20:01] <ChrisWilson> anne, the semantic role?
  784. # [20:01] * Quits: lm (W3CIRC@63.119.45.147) (Quit: The computer fell asleep)
  785. # [20:01] <anne> dglazkov, that's the idea of CSS + XBL basically, if I understand you correctly (but that's more a long term solution :-(
  786. # [20:02] * Joins: kingryan (rking3@67.164.15.57)
  787. # [20:02] <MikeSmith> tex: wouldn't you want to say, give me the list of all elements at this level? ...
  788. # [20:03] <dglazkov> yes.. I guess I just don't like the ARIA proposal, because it's ultimately a dead-end.
  789. # [20:03] <MikeSmith> ... why not just map this to a completely different model?
  790. # [20:03] <oedipus> dglazkov: why do you say it is a dead-end?
  791. # [20:03] * Joins: MarcinHanclik (maha@63.119.45.244)
  792. # [20:04] <dglazkov> well, oedipus, I may be to harsh in this characterization
  793. # [20:04] <MikeSmith> aaronlev : there probably is a more efficient model from presenting the data for this context ... but it would be something completely foreign to the average desktop user
  794. # [20:04] * Joins: anthony (chatzilla@203.12.172.254)
  795. # [20:04] <MikeSmith> aaronlev : JS widgets will always be a reality ...
  796. # [20:04] <dglazkov> but I think that we shouldn't be taking complex UIs and making them accessible
  797. # [20:04] <Lachy> because it's way too complex for average authors to even think about using and you're relying on the distribution and use of pre-written toolkits for this to be even remotely successful
  798. # [20:04] * Parts: mjs (mjs@63.119.44.165)
  799. # [20:04] * Joins: mjs (mjs@63.119.44.165)
  800. # [20:04] <mjs> it's a dead end only if all control types covered by AX apis end up available in HTML, and we get enough power to fully customize look and feel of all widgets
  801. # [20:05] <MikeSmith> aaronlev : sometimes the best UI is just one that people [already] know
  802. # [20:05] <oedipus> ARIA is the first step and suffices for generalized markup languages, but the intermediary where specialized knowledge domain markup is used -- consult: http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/Accessibility/Handlers
  803. # [20:05] <anne> mjs, yeah, CSS is the problem...
  804. # [20:05] * anne looks at Bert
  805. # [20:05] <gsnedders> Lachy: most authors just use text/links, though, in fairness
  806. # [20:05] <mjs> anne: I dunno if it's just CSS - HTML doesn't have built-in support for many OS-standard widget types, even in the current HTML5 draft
  807. # [20:05] <jgraham_> Lachy: you rely on prewritten toolkits in desktop apps too; to be fair
  808. # [20:05] <oedipus> mjg, by AX do you mean accessibility (a11y)?
  809. # [20:06] <mjs> oedipus, yes, AX is the abbreviation used by the Mac OS X accessibility APIs
  810. # [20:06] <MikeSmith> Present+ KevinLawver
  811. # [20:06] <oedipus> thanks, i didn't know
  812. # [20:06] <MikeSmith> kevin: Think of something like CoverTunes
  813. # [20:07] <MikeSmith> Hixie : people are still making up their own widgets
  814. # [20:07] <MikeSmith> q?
  815. # [20:07] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  816. # [20:07] <oedipus> mjs: the last time i used a mac, i could still see... it's hard to get agencies for the blind to train on anything other than windows
  817. # [20:07] <hsivonen> s/CoverTunes/CoverFlow/
  818. # [20:07] <mjs> CoverFlow is just a list view with a bonus magical display
  819. # [20:08] <mjs> oedipus, that's too bad - VoiceOver is supposedly pretty good
  820. # [20:08] * karl suggests that if people on IRC wants to ask questions that they record it on IRC under the form of q+ to ask about blahblah
  821. # [20:08] <MikeSmith> [one more demo from mike now]
  822. # [20:08] <aaronlev> http://www.mozilla.org/access/dhtml/spreadsheet
  823. # [20:08] * oedipus mjs, that's what i hear from those who do have a mac
  824. # [20:08] <Lachy> I used VoiceOver briefly to test it out, and it was remarkebly simple even for me
  825. # [20:09] * Quits: Markus (winterwolf@63.119.44.149) (Ping timeout)
  826. # [20:09] <MikeSmith> [mike is showing a demo of navigating a table]
  827. # [20:09] <MikeSmith> mike: I hate navigating spreadsheets
  828. # [20:09] * oedipus +1 to that!
  829. # [20:09] <MikeSmith> ... the last thing I want to do is go navigating cell-by-cell through a spreadsheet
  830. # [20:09] <MikeSmith> [mike moving through column headers]
  831. # [20:09] <MichaelC> q+ to say ARIA provides the semantics to allow Assistive Technology (AT) to customize presentation - AT could compete on how they optimize the presentation of particular widgets based on these semantics, but we can't expect authors to provide multiple parallel versions
  832. # [20:09] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
  833. # [20:10] * oedipus thanks Mike(tm) Smith for the DVS
  834. # [20:10] <MikeSmith> [mike showing how to edit contents of cells]
  835. # [20:10] <mjs> q+ to say that auditory reflection of the visual UI has a strong advantage - enabling collaboration between sighted and blind users
  836. # [20:10] * Zakim sees MichaelC, mjs on the speaker queue
  837. # [20:11] <MikeSmith> [mike hitting Ctrl+Alt to pull up menus]
  838. # [20:11] <karl> q?
  839. # [20:11] * Zakim sees MichaelC, mjs on the speaker queue
  840. # [20:11] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - are the table semantics from HTML only or with ARIA markup?
  841. # [20:12] <MikeSmith> aaronlev - some ARIA to say that the row headers are read-only
  842. # [20:12] <oedipus> q+ to say that auditory reflection of the visual UI is also often necessary in order to get accurate technical assistance
  843. # [20:12] * Zakim sees MichaelC, mjs, oedipus on the speaker queue
  844. # [20:12] <MikeSmith> [demo finished ... applause ... DanC stands and stretches]
  845. # [20:13] <MikeSmith> [next up is demo from Ben]
  846. # [20:13] <karl> oedipus, we are collecting questions
  847. # [20:13] * oedipus ok...
  848. # [20:13] <oedipus> q-
  849. # [20:13] * Zakim sees MichaelC, mjs on the speaker queue
  850. # [20:13] <MikeSmith> Present+ BenMillard
  851. # [20:14] <mjs> q-
  852. # [20:14] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
  853. # [20:14] <MikeSmith> [waiting from Ben to get set up]
  854. # [20:14] <MikeSmith> Present+ SeanMedero
  855. # [20:14] * oedipus wonders if the talk is still entitled "never mind the bullocks..."
  856. # [20:14] <MikeSmith> Present+ PatrickIan
  857. # [20:15] <MikeSmith> Present+ ChrisRowland
  858. # [20:15] <MikeSmith> Present+ SteveFaulkner
  859. # [20:15] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  860. # [20:15] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  861. # [20:15] <MichaelC> q-
  862. # [20:15] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  863. # [20:15] <MichaelC> Regarding customization of presentation: ARIA provides the semantics to allow Assistive Technology (AT) to customize presentation - AT could compete on how they optimize the presentation of particular widgets based on these semantics, but we can't expect authors to provide multiple parallel versions
  864. # [20:15] <olivier> s/PatrickIan/PatrickIon/
  865. # [20:16] * Quits: Pion (3f772c3c@128.30.52.23) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
  866. # [20:16] * Joins: Marcos_ (chatzilla@63.119.45.135)
  867. # [20:16] <MikeSmith> [we got musical accompaniment from DanC on the guitar]
  868. # [20:17] <MikeSmith> [Ben Millard introducing topic of data tables]
  869. # [20:17] * oedipus thinks the presentations should have been delivered a la dylan, with one word per placard and DanC strumming along
  870. # [20:17] <anne> He explains: http://sitesurgeon.co.uk/tables/
  871. # [20:17] <kazuhito> http://sitesurgeon.co.uk/tables/
  872. # [20:18] * Joins: lm (W3CIRC@63.119.45.147)
  873. # [20:18] <MikeSmith> ben: found out there are many tables on the Web that weren't in HTML ... some ASCII tables, some Excel, etc.
  874. # [20:18] * Joins: PIon (3f772c3c@128.30.52.23)
  875. # [20:18] * Quits: Marcos (chatzilla@12.6.206.9) (Ping timeout)
  876. # [20:19] * Marcos_ is now known as Marcos
  877. # [20:19] <MikeSmith> ... found some instances of tables lacking any header rows at all
  878. # [20:19] <ChrisWilson> oedipus, maybe we should make that requirement for all discussion.
  879. # [20:20] <MikeSmith> [Ben is walking us through the "How Authors Indicate Headers" part of page at URL above]
  880. # [20:22] <ChrisWilson> q?
  881. # [20:22] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  882. # [20:22] <MikeSmith> q?
  883. # [20:22] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  884. # [20:22] * anne doesn't think sticking a copy will help
  885. # [20:22] <oedipus> ChrisW: sounds good to me -- should i go down into the basement to mix up the medicine?
  886. # [20:22] * karl is sending the page to www-archive with the link to the URI for last version
  887. # [20:22] <MikeSmith> Present+ Håkon
  888. # [20:23] <MikeSmith> [DanC preparing to do some music]
  889. # [20:23] * anne wonders how that helps given that the page links a lot of subpages
  890. # [20:24] <Hixie> IH: I'm encouraged by these numbers
  891. # [20:25] <Hixie> (they indicate higher quality tables are more common than i expected)
  892. # [20:25] <MikeSmith> [getting ready for demo from Maciej]
  893. # [20:25] * Quits: mjs (mjs@63.119.44.165) (Quit: mjs)
  894. # [20:25] <karl> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Nov/0040
  895. # [20:26] <MikeSmith> [Maciej beginning his demo]
  896. # [20:27] * anne notes that karl just created a lot of broken links
  897. # [20:27] <ChrisWilson> [mjs demoing arbitrary affine transforms thru CSS]
  898. # [20:27] <ChrisWilson> agenda+ song for Hakon [Dan]
  899. # [20:27] * Zakim notes agendum 7 added
  900. # [20:28] * karl likes broken links
  901. # [20:28] <karl> so anne can talk
  902. # [20:28] <MikeSmith> ... showing cross-fading ... menu boxes growing as he mouses overs them ... notes that this can be doing using Javascript but this uses CSS
  903. # [20:28] <MikeSmith> ... has really good fallback behavior
  904. # [20:29] <MikeSmith> ... if you view same content in a browser that doesn't support the animation properties
  905. # [20:29] * Lachy wonders why mjs is presenting new CSS features in an HTML meeting?
  906. # [20:29] <MikeSmith> ... no special hardware being used
  907. # [20:29] <MikeSmith> Lachy : because it's cool, like us
  908. # [20:30] * karl wonders why maciej speaks like his boss "hey wait, there's more!"
  909. # [20:30] * karl :p
  910. # [20:30] * Bert :-) at MikeSmith
  911. # [20:31] <ChrisWilson> karl, I was hearing the Ginsu knife TV ad...
  912. # [20:31] <dglazkov> screenshots!
  913. # [20:31] * Joins: myakura_ (myakura@63.119.44.133)
  914. # [20:31] <karl> might be a cultural thing
  915. # [20:31] * Quits: MarcinHanclik (maha@63.119.45.244) (Connection reset by peer)
  916. # [20:31] <MikeSmith> [maciej is showing the markup source and CSS]
  917. # [20:31] * Joins: mikko_honkala_ (mikko_honk@63.119.45.209)
  918. # [20:31] * Joins: MarcinHanclik (maha@63.119.45.244)
  919. # [20:31] * Quits: mikko_honkala (mikko_honk@63.119.45.209) (Connection reset by peer)
  920. # [20:31] * Joins: Marcos_ (chatzilla@12.6.206.9)
  921. # [20:31] * mikko_honkala_ is now known as mikko_honkala
  922. # [20:31] <MikeSmith> ... -webkit-transition-duration
  923. # [20:31] * Joins: aaronlev_ (chatzilla@63.119.44.88)
  924. # [20:32] <MikeSmith> ... -webkit-transform
  925. # [20:32] <karl> http://webkit.org/blog/130/css-transforms/
  926. # [20:32] * Quits: Marcos (chatzilla@63.119.45.135) (Ping timeout)
  927. # [20:32] * Marcos_ is now known as Marcos
  928. # [20:32] <anne> dglazkov, someone makes a movie, so maybe later
  929. # [20:33] * Lachy wonders if mjs is saying "But wait, there's more" like that guy from the old Demtel commercials, and if he'll be throwing in a set of steak knives?
  930. # [20:33] * ChrisWilson thinks so.
  931. # [20:33] * Quits: myakura (myakura@63.119.44.133) (Ping timeout)
  932. # [20:33] * oedipus thinks so too -- consensus!
  933. # [20:33] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@63.119.44.88) (Ping timeout)
  934. # [20:33] <MikeSmith> maciej: this demo maybe shows a need for extensions to form controls
  935. # [20:33] * aaronlev_ is now known as aaronlev
  936. # [20:33] * karl is missing something :p no tv for the last 6 years
  937. # [20:34] * ChrisWilson thinks that ad is much older than 6 years
  938. # [20:34] <MikeSmith> ... <button type=toggle> or <button type=radio>
  939. # [20:34] * Lachy karl, those commercials haven't been on TV for about 10 years or more
  940. # [20:34] <smedero> I'm on it
  941. # [20:34] * oedipus tells karl to tune into any station in the US after 2am -- he'll see one
  942. # [20:35] * karl lachy, where? :) not in France. I'm sure.
  943. # [20:35] * Lachy search youtube for Demtel Tim Shaw
  944. # [20:35] * karl thanks lachy
  945. # [20:35] * oedipus such as, and, if you call in the next ten minutes, we'll throw in a free [product you are being overcharged for in the first place]
  946. # [20:35] <anne> I think that in that case it doesn't match to radio really well
  947. # [20:35] <anne> Which typically has a single one selected
  948. # [20:35] <MikeSmith> "but wait, there's more" was invented by RonCo
  949. # [20:35] <anne> (no toggling behavior)
  950. # [20:35] * Joins: mjs (mjs@63.119.44.165)
  951. # [20:36] <ChrisWilson> q+ for versioning pitch
  952. # [20:36] <MikeSmith> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronco
  953. # [20:36] * Zakim ChrisWilson, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  954. # [20:36] <Hixie> Zakim, agenda?
  955. # [20:36] <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
  956. # [20:36] <Zakim> 2. Which end of W3C is up? Q&A session [from DanC_lap]
  957. # [20:36] <hsivonen> q+ to pitch conformance checking test case discussion
  958. # [20:36] <Zakim> 3. ARIA demo [Al Gilman]
  959. # [20:36] <Zakim> 4. Data Tables [from Ben Millard via DanC_lap]
  960. # [20:36] <Zakim> 5. Demo: HTML+CSS as Flash Killer [from Maciej Stachowiak via DanC_lap]
  961. # [20:36] <Hixie> zakim, close item 2
  962. # [20:36] <Zakim> 6. Unconference pitches [from DanC_lap]
  963. # [20:36] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : you gotta put "q+ to ..."
  964. # [20:36] <Zakim> 7. song for Hakon [from Dan via ChrisWilson]
  965. # [20:36] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  966. # [20:36] <Zakim> agendum 2, Which end of W3C is up? Q&A session, closed
  967. # [20:36] <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
  968. # [20:36] <Zakim> 3. ARIA demo [Al Gilman]
  969. # [20:36] <Hixie> Zakim, close item 3
  970. # [20:36] <Zakim> agendum 3, ARIA demo [Al Gilman], closed
  971. # [20:36] <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
  972. # [20:36] <ChrisWilson> q+ to give versioning pitch
  973. # [20:36] <Zakim> 4. Data Tables [from Ben Millard via DanC_lap]
  974. # [20:36] * Zakim sees hsivonen, ChrisWilson on the speaker queue
  975. # [20:37] <Hixie> Zakim, close item 4
  976. # [20:37] <Zakim> agendum 4, Data Tables, closed
  977. # [20:37] <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
  978. # [20:37] <Zakim> 5. Demo: HTML+CSS as Flash Killer [from Maciej Stachowiak via DanC_lap]
  979. # [20:37] <Hixie> Zakim, close item 5
  980. # [20:37] <Zakim> agendum 5, Demo: HTML+CSS as Flash Killer, closed
  981. # [20:37] <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
  982. # [20:37] <Zakim> 6. Unconference pitches [from DanC_lap]
  983. # [20:37] <ChrisWilson> MikeSmith, thanks, forgot to use "to" rather than for"
  984. # [20:37] <Hixie> q+ Ben to pitch for more info on tables
  985. # [20:37] * Zakim sees hsivonen, ChrisWilson, Ben on the speaker queue
  986. # [20:37] <jgraham_> q+ for test case organisation
  987. # [20:37] * Zakim jgraham_, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  988. # [20:37] * Joins: raman (user@216.239.45.4)
  989. # [20:37] <Hixie> zakim, take up item 6
  990. # [20:37] <Zakim> agendum 6. "Unconference pitches" taken up [from DanC_lap]
  991. # [20:37] <ChrisWilson> Zakim, take up item 6
  992. # [20:37] <Zakim> agendum 6. "Unconference pitches" taken up [from DanC_lap]
  993. # [20:37] <Hixie> Zakim, time speakers for 2 minutes
  994. # [20:37] <Zakim> I don't understand 'time speakers for 2 minutes', Hixie
  995. # [20:38] <Hixie> Zakim, time speakers at 2 minutes
  996. # [20:38] <Zakim> ok, Hixie
  997. # [20:38] <jgraham_> q+ to give test case organisation
  998. # [20:38] * Zakim sees hsivonen, ChrisWilson, Ben, jgraham_ on the speaker queue
  999. # [20:38] <MikeSmith> Zakim, time speakers at 2 minutes
  1000. # [20:38] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith
  1001. # [20:39] <Hixie> q+ Hixie to pitch for status thingy
  1002. # [20:39] * Zakim sees hsivonen, ChrisWilson, Ben, jgraham_, Hixie on the speaker queue
  1003. # [20:39] <Hixie> q+ Hixie to pitch for test thingy
  1004. # [20:39] * Zakim sees hsivonen, ChrisWilson, Ben, jgraham_, Hixie on the speaker queue
  1005. # [20:39] <olivier> q+ danc to talk about "testing is hard"
  1006. # [20:39] * Zakim sees hsivonen, ChrisWilson, Ben, jgraham_, Hixie, danc on the speaker queue
  1007. # [20:40] <dbaron> ack hsivonen
  1008. # [20:40] <Zakim> hsivonen, you wanted to pitch conformance checking test case discussion
  1009. # [20:40] * Zakim sees ChrisWilson, Ben, jgraham_, Hixie, danc on the speaker queue
  1010. # [20:40] * Zakim gives 90 second speaker warning to hsivonen
  1011. # [20:40] <karl> q+ to ask about explaining systematic testing
  1012. # [20:40] * Zakim sees ChrisWilson, Ben, jgraham_, Hixie, danc, karl on the speaker queue
  1013. # [20:40] * anne prolly wants to attend several of these topics
  1014. # [20:41] * Zakim gives 60 second speaker warning to hsivonen
  1015. # [20:41] <olivier> q?
  1016. # [20:41] * Zakim sees ChrisWilson, Ben, jgraham_, Hixie, danc, karl on the speaker queue
  1017. # [20:41] * Zakim gives 30 second speaker warning to hsivonen
  1018. # [20:41] * Zakim gives 15 second speaker warning to hsivonen
  1019. # [20:41] <olivier> ack C
  1020. # [20:41] <Zakim> ChrisWilson, you wanted to give versioning pitch
  1021. # [20:42] <dbaron> ack ChrisWilson
  1022. # [20:42] * Zakim sees Ben, jgraham_, Hixie, danc, karl on the speaker queue
  1023. # [20:42] * Zakim sees Ben, jgraham_, Hixie, danc, karl on the speaker queue
  1024. # [20:42] * Quits: jun (fujisawa_j@63.119.45.120) (Ping timeout)
  1025. # [20:42] <karl> q-
  1026. # [20:42] * Zakim sees Ben, jgraham_, Hixie, danc on the speaker queue
  1027. # [20:42] * Zakim gives 90 second speaker warning to ChrisWilson
  1028. # [20:42] <olivier> ack b
  1029. # [20:42] <Zakim> Ben, you wanted to pitch for more info on tables
  1030. # [20:42] * Zakim sees jgraham_, Hixie, danc on the speaker queue
  1031. # [20:43] * Zakim gives 90 second speaker warning to Ben
  1032. # [20:43] * Joins: howcome (howcome@63.119.44.89)
  1033. # [20:43] <olivier> ack jg
  1034. # [20:43] <Zakim> jgraham_, you wanted to give test case organisation
  1035. # [20:43] * Zakim sees Hixie, danc on the speaker queue
  1036. # [20:43] * Quits: hober (ted@68.107.112.172) (Ping timeout)
  1037. # [20:43] * Parts: mjs (mjs@63.119.44.165)
  1038. # [20:43] <anne> Henri wants to talk about systematic validator testing
  1039. # [20:43] * Joins: mjs (mjs@63.119.44.165)
  1040. # [20:43] <mjs> q+ to pitch for offline support
  1041. # [20:43] * Zakim sees Hixie, danc, mjs on the speaker queue
  1042. # [20:43] <anne> Chris wants to talk about versioning, backwards compat, etc.
  1043. # [20:44] <mjs> q+ to pitch for media elements
  1044. # [20:44] * Zakim sees Hixie, danc, mjs on the speaker queue
  1045. # [20:44] * Zakim gives 90 second speaker warning to jgraham_
  1046. # [20:44] <MikeSmith> jgraham_ points out that we have accumulated a small pile of disorganized test cases ...
  1047. # [20:44] <anne> Ben wants to talk about data tables (header association, etc.)
  1048. # [20:44] * Zakim gives 60 second speaker warning to jgraham_
  1049. # [20:44] <karl> q+ to pitch for HTML 5 for author
  1050. # [20:44] * Zakim sees Hixie, danc, mjs, karl on the speaker queue
  1051. # [20:44] <MikeSmith> ... what I want is to have a discussion about what test cases we need, how to best organizes the ones we already got
  1052. # [20:44] <anne> James wants to talk about organizing existing testcases, licensing tests, etc.
  1053. # [20:44] <olivier> ack H
  1054. # [20:44] <Zakim> Hixie, you wanted to pitch for status thingy and to pitch for test thingy
  1055. # [20:44] * Zakim sees danc, mjs, karl on the speaker queue
  1056. # [20:45] <MikeSmith> Hixie : spec has various sections with varying levels of stability ...
  1057. # [20:45] <anne> Ian wants to talk about stability annotation within the specification (status thingy)
  1058. # [20:45] * Zakim gives 90 second speaker warning to Hixie
  1059. # [20:45] <olivier> ack H
  1060. # [20:45] * Zakim sees danc, mjs, karl on the speaker queue
  1061. # [20:45] <MikeSmith> ... would like to have a way to annotate stability of different parts of spec
  1062. # [20:45] <anne> Ian wants to teach people to write tests
  1063. # [20:45] * Zakim gives 90 second speaker warning to H
  1064. # [20:46] <MikeSmith> Hixie : tutorial session on how to write test cases
  1065. # [20:46] <olivier> agenda+ writing tests [hixie]
  1066. # [20:46] * Zakim notes agendum 8 added
  1067. # [20:46] <olivier> q?
  1068. # [20:46] * Zakim sees danc, mjs, karl on the speaker queue
  1069. # [20:46] * Zakim gives 60 second speaker warning to H
  1070. # [20:46] <ChrisWilson> zakim, agenda?
  1071. # [20:46] <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
  1072. # [20:46] <Zakim> 6. Unconference pitches [from DanC_lap]
  1073. # [20:46] <Zakim> 7. song for Hakon [from Dan via ChrisWilson]
  1074. # [20:46] <Zakim> 8. writing tests [from hixie via olivier]
  1075. # [20:46] <olivier> agenda+ data tables
  1076. # [20:46] * Zakim notes agendum 9 added
  1077. # [20:46] <MikeSmith> Hixie : You will write test cases and I will tell you what you are doing wrong [laughs]
  1078. # [20:46] <MikeSmith> mjs : session or sweatshop?
  1079. # [20:46] <olivier> agenda+ systematic validator testing
  1080. # [20:46] * Zakim notes agendum 10 added
  1081. # [20:46] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@80.143.152.66)
  1082. # [20:46] * Zakim gives 30 second speaker warning to H
  1083. # [20:47] <ChrisWilson> zakim, agenda?
  1084. # [20:47] <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
  1085. # [20:47] <Zakim> 6. Unconference pitches [from DanC_lap]
  1086. # [20:47] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft niutes
  1087. # [20:47] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'please draft niutes', MikeSmith. Try /msg RRSAgent help
  1088. # [20:47] <Zakim> 7. song for Hakon [from Dan via ChrisWilson]
  1089. # [20:47] <Zakim> 8. writing tests [from hixie via olivier]
  1090. # [20:47] <Zakim> 9. data tables [from olivier]
  1091. # [20:47] <olivier> agenda+ organizing existing testcases
  1092. # [20:47] <Zakim> 10. systematic validator testing [from olivier]
  1093. # [20:47] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  1094. # [20:47] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  1095. # [20:47] * Zakim notes agendum 11 added
  1096. # [20:47] * Zakim gives 15 second speaker warning to H
  1097. # [20:47] <Hixie> agenda+ writing the spec status stuff [Hixie]
  1098. # [20:47] * Zakim notes agendum 12 added
  1099. # [20:47] <Hixie> agenda?
  1100. # [20:47] * Zakim sees 7 items remaining on the agenda:
  1101. # [20:47] * Zakim 6. Unconference pitches [from DanC_lap]
  1102. # [20:47] * Zakim 7. song for Hakon [from Dan via ChrisWilson]
  1103. # [20:47] <MikeSmith> I like the word niutes
  1104. # [20:47] <olivier> agenda+ versioning
  1105. # [20:47] * Zakim 8. writing tests [from hixie via olivier]
  1106. # [20:47] * Zakim 9. data tables [from olivier]
  1107. # [20:47] * Zakim 10. systematic validator testing [from olivier]
  1108. # [20:47] * Zakim 11. organizing existing testcases [from olivier]
  1109. # [20:47] * Zakim 12. writing the spec status stuff [from Hixie]
  1110. # [20:47] * Zakim notes agendum 13 added
  1111. # [20:47] * Zakim chimes: speaking time is up, H
  1112. # [20:47] * tlr is now known as tlr_
  1113. # [20:47] <ChrisWilson> agenda+ discussion of backward/forward compatibility, versioning and doctype
  1114. # [20:47] * Zakim notes agendum 14 added
  1115. # [20:47] <olivier> agenda+ organizing existing testcases [jgraham]
  1116. # [20:47] * Zakim notes agendum 15 added
  1117. # [20:47] <olivier> agenda+ versioning [chriswilson]
  1118. # [20:47] * Zakim notes agendum 16 added
  1119. # [20:47] * Joins: Marcos_ (chatzilla@63.119.45.135)
  1120. # [20:48] <olivier> agenda+ systematic validator testing [henri]
  1121. # [20:48] * Zakim notes agendum 17 added
  1122. # [20:48] <olivier> ack d
  1123. # [20:48] <Zakim> danc, you wanted to talk about "testing is hard"
  1124. # [20:48] * Zakim sees mjs, karl on the speaker queue
  1125. # [20:48] <olivier> agenda?
  1126. # [20:48] * Zakim sees 12 items remaining on the agenda:
  1127. # [20:48] * Zakim 6. Unconference pitches [from DanC_lap]
  1128. # [20:48] * Zakim 7. song for Hakon [from Dan via ChrisWilson]
  1129. # [20:48] * Zakim 8. writing tests [from hixie via olivier]
  1130. # [20:48] * Zakim 9. data tables [from olivier]
  1131. # [20:48] * Zakim 10. systematic validator testing [from olivier]
  1132. # [20:48] <olivier> agenda+ story telling and test cases [danc]
  1133. # [20:48] * Zakim 11. organizing existing testcases [from olivier]
  1134. # [20:48] * Zakim 12. writing the spec status stuff [from Hixie]
  1135. # [20:48] * Zakim 13. versioning [from olivier]
  1136. # [20:48] <MikeSmith> DanC: Storytelling and test cases ...
  1137. # [20:48] * Zakim 14. discussion of backward/forward compatibility, versioning and doctype [from ChrisWilson]
  1138. # [20:48] * Zakim 15. organizing existing testcases [from jgraham via olivier]
  1139. # [20:48] * Zakim 16. versioning [from chriswilson via olivier]
  1140. # [20:48] * Zakim 17. systematic validator testing [from henri via olivier]
  1141. # [20:48] * Zakim notes agendum 18 added
  1142. # [20:48] * Zakim gives 90 second speaker warning to danc
  1143. # [20:48] <olivier> zakim, drop agendum 10
  1144. # [20:48] <Zakim> agendum 10, systematic validator testing, dropped
  1145. # [20:48] <olivier> zakim, drop agendum 11
  1146. # [20:48] <Zakim> agendum 11, organizing existing testcases, dropped
  1147. # [20:49] * tlr_ is now known as tlr
  1148. # [20:49] * Zakim gives 60 second speaker warning to danc
  1149. # [20:49] <MikeSmith> ... karl has some great slides on this
  1150. # [20:49] <ChrisWilson> q?
  1151. # [20:49] * Zakim sees mjs, karl on the speaker queue
  1152. # [20:49] <ChrisWilson> ack mjs
  1153. # [20:49] <Zakim> mjs, you wanted to pitch for offline support and to pitch for media elements
  1154. # [20:49] <olivier> agenda 9 = data tables [ben]
  1155. # [20:49] * Zakim sees karl on the speaker queue
  1156. # [20:49] * Zakim notes agendum 9 replaced
  1157. # [20:49] <MikeSmith> ack mjs
  1158. # [20:49] * Zakim sees karl on the speaker queue
  1159. # [20:49] <olivier> agenda?
  1160. # [20:49] * Zakim sees 11 items remaining on the agenda:
  1161. # [20:49] * Zakim 6. Unconference pitches [from DanC_lap]
  1162. # [20:49] * Zakim 7. song for Hakon [from Dan via ChrisWilson]
  1163. # [20:49] <Hixie> agenda+ offline support [mjs]
  1164. # [20:49] * Zakim 8. writing tests [from hixie via olivier]
  1165. # [20:49] * Zakim 9. data tables [ben]
  1166. # [20:49] * Zakim 12. writing the spec status stuff [from Hixie]
  1167. # [20:49] * Zakim 13. versioning [from olivier]
  1168. # [20:49] * Zakim 14. discussion of backward/forward compatibility, versioning and doctype [from ChrisWilson]
  1169. # [20:49] <Hixie> agenda+ media elements [mjs]
  1170. # [20:49] * Zakim 15. organizing existing testcases [from jgraham via olivier]
  1171. # [20:49] * Zakim 16. versioning [from chriswilson via olivier]
  1172. # [20:49] * Zakim 17. systematic validator testing [from henri via olivier]
  1173. # [20:49] * Zakim 18. story telling and test cases [from danc via olivier]
  1174. # [20:49] * Zakim notes agendum 19 added
  1175. # [20:50] * Zakim notes agendum 20 added
  1176. # [20:50] <olivier> agenda 13 = versioning [chrisW]
  1177. # [20:50] * Zakim notes agendum 13 replaced
  1178. # [20:50] * Zakim gives 90 second speaker warning to mjs
  1179. # [20:50] * Quits: Marcos (chatzilla@12.6.206.9) (Ping timeout)
  1180. # [20:50] * Marcos_ is now known as Marcos
  1181. # [20:50] <MikeSmith> mjs: offline support ... we have done some implementation work, I know Mozilla has also
  1182. # [20:50] * Zakim gives 60 second speaker warning to mjs
  1183. # [20:50] <ChrisWilson> q?
  1184. # [20:50] * Zakim sees karl on the speaker queue
  1185. # [20:50] <ChrisWilson> ACK KARL
  1186. # [20:50] <Zakim> karl, you wanted to pitch for HTML 5 for author
  1187. # [20:50] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1188. # [20:50] <olivier> zakim, drom agendum 13
  1189. # [20:50] <Zakim> I don't understand 'drom agendum 13', olivier
  1190. # [20:50] <olivier> zakim, drop agendum 13
  1191. # [20:50] <Zakim> agendum 13, versioning [chrisW], dropped
  1192. # [20:50] <Hixie> agenda+ HTML 5 for authors [karl]
  1193. # [20:50] * Zakim notes agendum 21 added
  1194. # [20:51] * olivier made a mess with his agenda+ earlier, sorry
  1195. # [20:51] * Joins: Markus (winterwolf@63.119.44.209)
  1196. # [20:51] * Zakim gives 90 second speaker warning to karl
  1197. # [20:51] * Hixie keeps forgetting he's projecting
  1198. # [20:51] * Zakim gives 60 second speaker warning to karl
  1199. # [20:51] <olivier> q?
  1200. # [20:51] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1201. # [20:51] <ChrisWilson> q?
  1202. # [20:51] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1203. # [20:51] <Hixie> agenda?
  1204. # [20:51] * Zakim sees 13 items remaining on the agenda:
  1205. # [20:51] * Zakim 6. Unconference pitches [from DanC_lap]
  1206. # [20:51] * Zakim 7. song for Hakon [from Dan via ChrisWilson]
  1207. # [20:51] <MikeSmith> karl : with HTML5 we have a big clash with [previous expections] of the community toward W3C specs ...
  1208. # [20:52] * Zakim 8. writing tests [from hixie via olivier]
  1209. # [20:52] * Zakim 9. data tables [ben]
  1210. # [20:52] * Zakim 12. writing the spec status stuff [from Hixie]
  1211. # [20:52] * Zakim 14. discussion of backward/forward compatibility, versioning and doctype [from ChrisWilson]
  1212. # [20:52] * Zakim 15. organizing existing testcases [from jgraham via olivier]
  1213. # [20:52] * Zakim 16. versioning [from chriswilson via olivier]
  1214. # [20:52] * Zakim 17. systematic validator testing [from henri via olivier]
  1215. # [20:52] * Zakim 18. story telling and test cases [from danc via olivier]
  1216. # [20:52] * Zakim 19. offline support [from mjs via Hixie]
  1217. # [20:52] <MikeSmith> ... [need to consider how to address the expectations of the authoring community]
  1218. # [20:52] * Zakim 20. media elements [from mjs via Hixie]
  1219. # [20:52] * Zakim 21. HTML 5 for authors [from karl via Hixie]
  1220. # [20:52] * Zakim gives 30 second speaker warning to karl
  1221. # [20:52] * Zakim gives 15 second speaker warning to karl
  1222. # [20:52] * anne has the same problem as Dan
  1223. # [20:52] * Zakim chimes: speaking time is up, karl
  1224. # [20:52] <mauro> q?
  1225. # [20:52] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1226. # [20:53] <Hixie> there are 12 items
  1227. # [20:53] <Hixie> at the moment
  1228. # [20:54] <MikeSmith> song for Håkon: 6ish people raise hands
  1229. # [20:54] * Zakim MikeSmith, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  1230. # [20:54] <MikeSmith> song for Håkon, 6ish people raise hands
  1231. # [20:54] * Zakim MikeSmith, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  1232. # [20:54] <MikeSmith> wtf
  1233. # [20:54] <MikeSmith> . song for Håkon, 6ish people raise hands
  1234. # [20:54] * Zakim MikeSmith, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  1235. # [20:54] * MikeSmith notes he ain't keeping count of show of hands
  1236. # [20:54] * Zakim MikeSmith, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  1237. # [20:54] <tlr> http://www.w3.org/2007/xmlsec/Drafts/xmldsig-core/explain.html
  1238. # [20:55] <tlr> whooopos
  1239. # [20:55] <tlr> s/http://www.w3.org/2007/xmlsec/Drafts/xmldsig-core/explain.html//
  1240. # [20:56] <smedero> mjs: do you have a public URL for your CSS animation demo? (I have the URL for the WebKit blog entry on it)
  1241. # [20:57] * Joins: chaals (chaals@63.119.44.72)
  1242. # [20:58] <MichaelC> q+ to ask that when the sessions are scheduled, the title, time, and location be added to the agenda page
  1243. # [20:58] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
  1244. # [20:58] <mjs> smedero: I will post it publicly soon
  1245. # [20:58] <Hixie> q?
  1246. # [20:58] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
  1247. # [20:58] <mjs> smedero: I only finished this version right before presenting
  1248. # [20:58] <smedero> alright, no rush... just compiling info for the issue. :)
  1249. # [20:58] <Hixie> agenda?
  1250. # [20:58] * Zakim sees 13 items remaining on the agenda:
  1251. # [20:58] * Zakim 6. Unconference pitches [from DanC_lap]
  1252. # [20:58] * Zakim 7. song for Hakon [from Dan via ChrisWilson]
  1253. # [20:58] * Zakim 8. writing tests [from hixie via olivier]
  1254. # [20:58] <mjs> smedero: last version used content that I couldn't redistribute
  1255. # [20:58] * Zakim 9. data tables [ben]
  1256. # [20:58] * Zakim 12. writing the spec status stuff [from Hixie]
  1257. # [20:58] * Zakim 14. discussion of backward/forward compatibility, versioning and doctype [from ChrisWilson]
  1258. # [20:58] * Zakim 15. organizing existing testcases [from jgraham via olivier]
  1259. # [20:59] * Zakim 16. versioning [from chriswilson via olivier]
  1260. # [20:59] * Zakim 17. systematic validator testing [from henri via olivier]
  1261. # [20:59] * Zakim 18. story telling and test cases [from danc via olivier]
  1262. # [20:59] * Zakim 19. offline support [from mjs via Hixie]
  1263. # [20:59] * Zakim 20. media elements [from mjs via Hixie]
  1264. # [20:59] * Zakim 21. HTML 5 for authors [from karl via Hixie]
  1265. # [20:59] * Joins: molly (mollyholzs@63.116.222.46)
  1266. # [20:59] <ChrisWilson> agenda -16
  1267. # [20:59] * Zakim notes agendum 16, versioning, dropped
  1268. # [21:02] * Quits: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.9/2007102514])
  1269. # [21:03] * Quits: smedero (smedero@63.119.44.183) (Quit: smedero)
  1270. # [21:04] <MikeSmith> [we are effectively breaking until 4pm ... ]
  1271. # [21:04] * MikeSmith notes that coffee and whatever is down on lobby floor
  1272. # [21:04] <molly> wondering if it's worth coming over for the remainder of the day or having a little me time and catching up tomorrow. Advice?
  1273. # [21:05] * Quits: myakura_ (myakura@63.119.44.133) (Ping timeout)
  1274. # [21:05] * Quits: MarcinHanclik (maha@63.119.45.244) (Ping timeout)
  1275. # [21:05] * Quits: justin (justin@63.119.45.74) (Quit: Computer goes to sleep!)
  1276. # [21:05] * Quits: lm (W3CIRC@63.119.45.147) (Quit: The computer fell asleep)
  1277. # [21:06] * Quits: gavin (gavin@99.227.30.12) (Ping timeout)
  1278. # [21:06] * Quits: Nick (nickVdB@63.119.45.133) (Ping timeout)
  1279. # [21:06] * Joins: hober (ted@68.107.112.172)
  1280. # [21:06] * Quits: howcome (howcome@63.119.44.89) (Ping timeout)
  1281. # [21:08] <MikeSmith> Present+ ScottVesey
  1282. # [21:09] * Joins: smedero (smedero@63.119.44.183)
  1283. # [21:09] * Quits: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Leaving)
  1284. # [21:09] * Quits: Markus (winterwolf@63.119.44.209) (Ping timeout)
  1285. # [21:11] * Joins: MarcinHanclik (maha@63.119.45.244)
  1286. # [21:11] * Joins: gavin (gavin@99.227.30.12)
  1287. # [21:12] <Lachy> MikeSmith, now that the break is on, is there someone who can organise a skypecast? Just need someone with skype and a decent mic to pick up the speakers
  1288. # [21:13] <oedipus> if there is my skypename is oedipusnj -- marcos captured the first 2 demos (at least) on his webcam
  1289. # [21:14] * Joins: Nick (nickVdB@63.119.45.133)
  1290. # [21:14] * Quits: PIon (3f772c3c@128.30.52.23) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
  1291. # [21:17] <Lachy> oedipus, are you participating via IRC only?
  1292. # [21:17] <oedipus> yes
  1293. # [21:18] * oedipus notes that marcos tried to skype me in but it wouldn't work whether he or i initiated the call
  1294. # [21:18] <mauro> zakim, pointer?
  1295. # [21:18] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, mauro.
  1296. # [21:18] <mauro> RRSAgent, pointer?
  1297. # [21:18] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-irc#T20-18-22
  1298. # [21:20] * Quits: smedero (smedero@63.119.44.183) (Quit: smedero)
  1299. # [21:20] <oedipus> the first demo is (temporarily at): http://63.119.45.135/aria.avi - note it takes quite some time to load, but eventually will
  1300. # [21:24] * Joins: smedero (smedero@63.119.44.183)
  1301. # [21:24] * Joins: justin (justin@63.119.45.74)
  1302. # [21:29] * Joins: arun (chatzilla@64.236.139.249)
  1303. # [21:34] <Lachy> oedipus, has that server got a slow upload speed? It's not going very fast at all
  1304. # [21:34] * Quits: timbl (timbl@63.119.45.160) (Quit: timbl)
  1305. # [21:34] * Quits: kingryan (rking3@67.164.15.57) (Quit: kingryan)
  1306. # [21:36] * Joins: myakura (myakura@63.119.44.133)
  1307. # [21:36] <oedipus> lachy, it took forever and a day, and then suddenly started playing -- for some reason, won't play before the whole thing is buffered, so when it started, i saved it locally and then listened to it
  1308. # [21:37] <Lachy> yeah, I'm trying to save it locally
  1309. # [21:37] <Lachy> what codec is it using?
  1310. # [21:37] * oedipus asks lachy -- if all else fails, i can try skyping you the file
  1311. # [21:37] <oedipus> it is an AVI file
  1312. # [21:37] <Lachy> Could it be converted to ogg theora or something with a bit better compression?
  1313. # [21:38] <Lachy> AVI is just a container format. It could contain almost any codec
  1314. # [21:38] <oedipus> i have a codec conversion utility -- i'll "see" what i can do
  1315. # [21:38] <Lachy> run it through ffmpeg2theora
  1316. # [21:39] <Lachy> sending the file by skype would be much slower, skype isn't good for transferring large files
  1317. # [21:39] <molly> still loading over here
  1318. # [21:40] <Lachy> 40 to 50 minutes remaining at this speed :-(
  1319. # [21:40] * oedipus just offered it as an option because marcos skyped it to me in less than 10 minutes
  1320. # [21:41] <Lachy> well, you could try it if you have a decent upload speed. Otherwise, I can get marcos to skype it to me when he gets back to his computer
  1321. # [21:41] * Quits: jgraham_ (jgraham@63.119.45.250) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  1322. # [21:41] <Lachy> my skype name is lachlanhunt
  1323. # [21:41] <oedipus> thanks, lachy -- let me try to convert it first
  1324. # [21:42] <Lachy> you can get ffmpeg2theora here. It's a command line utility for windows. http://v2v.cc/~j/ffmpeg2theora/download.html
  1325. # [21:43] * Quits: myakura (myakura@63.119.44.133) (Ping timeout)
  1326. # [21:43] * Joins: paullewis (paullewis@82.242.109.217)
  1327. # [21:43] <Hixie> agenda+ aria session [no lead yet]
  1328. # [21:43] * Zakim notes agendum 22 added
  1329. # [21:45] * Quits: Dennis (forty4@63.119.45.205) (Ping timeout)
  1330. # [21:46] * Joins: Dennis (forty4@63.119.44.226)
  1331. # [21:47] * Joins: kingryan (rking3@67.164.15.57)
  1332. # [21:49] <MikeSmith> Present+ NickVanDenBleeken
  1333. # [21:49] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1334. # [21:49] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  1335. # [21:49] <anne> Zakim, who is here?
  1336. # [21:49] <Zakim> sorry, anne, I don't know what conference this is
  1337. # [21:49] <Zakim> On IRC I see kingryan, Dennis, paullewis, arun, justin, smedero, Nick, gavin, MarcinHanclik, hober, molly, chaals, Marcos, Julian, mjs, raman, aaronlev, mikko_honkala, anthony,
  1338. # [21:49] <anne> lol
  1339. # [21:49] <Zakim> ... tlr, Bert, shepazu, dsinger, karl, tantek, mauro, dbaron, ChrisWilson, Philip, MikeSmith, kazuhito, anne, aroben, Zakim, Lachy, matt, dglazkov, hasather, oedipus, tH, ROBOd,
  1340. # [21:50] <Zakim> ... Lionheart, Hixie, heycam, laplink, bogi, gsnedders, Thezilch, jane, krijnh, deltab, Dashiva, jmb, Kuruma, gavin_, beowulf, jgraham, drry, hsivonen, trackbot-ng, Bob_le_Pointu,
  1341. # [21:50] <Zakim> ... RRSAgent
  1342. # [21:50] <molly> is there any other female involved in this wg discussion?
  1343. # [21:50] <oedipus> we don't know whether RRSAgent is male, female or indifferent...
  1344. # [21:51] <molly> oedipus I think we can probably agree that the agent is genderless :D
  1345. # [21:51] * gsnedders has just been reading a book by Kate Bornstien that predictably goes on about gender being binary
  1346. # [21:52] * Joins: robburns (robburns@24.1.195.65)
  1347. # [21:52] * anne is being silly
  1348. # [21:52] * anne .. well, was, above
  1349. # [21:52] <gsnedders> anne… be silly? oh wow.
  1350. # [21:52] <smedero> molly, there were two females present in the conference room earlier... I don't enough of these folks to tell you whos who.
  1351. # [21:53] * Joins: myakura (myakura@63.119.44.133)
  1352. # [21:53] * oedipus wonders if jane is jane, and not tarzan, posing as jane
  1353. # [21:53] <MikeSmith> s/TravisFromMicrosoft/TravisLeithead/
  1354. # [21:53] <molly> smedero thanks! I am just curious. I'll be back in the room tomorrow
  1355. # [21:53] <MikeSmith> s/fromBoeing//
  1356. # [21:53] <molly> i'm not bringing it up to call foul or anything, it's just a point of curiosity for me
  1357. # [21:53] <smedero> molly, no I understand.
  1358. # [21:54] <MikeSmith> s/Mauro/Mauro/Nunez/
  1359. # [21:54] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1360. # [21:54] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  1361. # [21:54] <smedero> particularly in light of the A List Apart survey recently...
  1362. # [21:54] <jane> oedipus: har :\
  1363. # [21:54] <molly> smedero yes! that was an amazing survey. Frightening in some ways
  1364. # [21:55] * Quits: robburns (robburns@24.1.195.65) (Ping timeout)
  1365. # [21:55] <gsnedders> it had issues for people not in full-time jobs though, IIRC
  1366. # [21:55] <MikeSmith> s/LesliefromLosAlamos/LeslieMansell/
  1367. # [21:55] <MikeSmith> s/NickFromLosAlamos//
  1368. # [21:55] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1369. # [21:55] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  1370. # [21:56] <MikeSmith> Present+ DanielZucker
  1371. # [21:56] <dbaron> mjs: "I'm trying to schedule based on facts, not moral imperatives."
  1372. # [21:56] * Joins: glazou_soreThroat (daniel@63.119.45.165)
  1373. # [21:56] * Quits: chaals (chaals@63.119.44.72) (Client exited)
  1374. # [21:56] <MikeSmith> Present+ TonyGrasso
  1375. # [21:57] * Joins: chaals (chaals@63.119.44.72)
  1376. # [21:57] * Joins: jun (fujisawa_j@63.119.45.120)
  1377. # [21:58] <molly> Leslie's here, now I know there's some additional girl power in the room ;)
  1378. # [21:58] <MikeSmith> Present+ JustinThorp
  1379. # [21:59] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  1380. # [21:59] * Lachy notes that skype is working between me and marcos
  1381. # [22:00] * Quits: Nick (nickVdB@63.119.45.133) (Ping timeout)
  1382. # [22:00] * Quits: ChrisWilson (CWilso@63.119.44.171) (Ping timeout)
  1383. # [22:00] * Joins: howcome (howcome@63.119.44.89)
  1384. # [22:00] * Joins: Nick (nickVdB@63.119.45.133)
  1385. # [22:01] * oedipus thanks marcos for camcording
  1386. # [22:01] <mauro> s/Mauro/MauroNunez/
  1387. # [22:02] <Marcos> no probs... next time I'll bring a proper web cam
  1388. # [22:02] <mauro> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1389. # [22:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html mauro
  1390. # [22:02] <Marcos> If I can, I'm going to put the Aria video on youtube....
  1391. # [22:03] <shepazu> Zakim, room for 2?
  1392. # [22:03] <Zakim> ok, shepazu; conference Team_(html-wg)21:03Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 60 minutes until 2203Z
  1393. # [22:03] <karl> http://quality.mozilla.org/
  1394. # [22:03] <shepazu> oops
  1395. # [22:03] <MikeSmith> Present+ GregThompson
  1396. # [22:04] <shepazu> sorry about that
  1397. # [22:05] <MikeSmith> Present+ HennySwan
  1398. # [22:05] <MikeSmith> Zakim, room to groove?
  1399. # [22:05] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, MikeSmith.
  1400. # [22:05] <MikeSmith> Zakim, room to get a freak on?
  1401. # [22:05] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, MikeSmith.
  1402. # [22:05] <kingryan> Lachy: could I join the skype call? my skype username is ryansking
  1403. # [22:05] * mauro smiles at Mike's requests
  1404. # [22:06] <Lachy> I'll see if we can set up a skypecast. Hold on.
  1405. # [22:07] * Quits: justin (justin@63.119.45.74) (Quit: Computer goes to sleep!)
  1406. # [22:09] * Joins: Chris (CWilso@63.119.44.171)
  1407. # [22:10] * Chris is now known as ChrisWilson
  1408. # [22:10] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@63.119.44.88) (Ping timeout)
  1409. # [22:10] <ChrisWilson> [media elements discussion begins]
  1410. # [22:11] * Quits: anne (annevk@63.119.45.192) (Ping timeout)
  1411. # [22:11] * Joins: dsinger_ (dsinger@63.119.45.128)
  1412. # [22:11] * Quits: myakura (myakura@63.119.44.133) (Ping timeout)
  1413. # [22:11] * Joins: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30)
  1414. # [22:11] * Quits: dsinger (daithesong@63.119.45.128) (Quit: Leaving)
  1415. # [22:13] <MikeSmith> Scribenick: MikeSmith
  1416. # [22:14] <MikeSmith> mjs : Does anybody have problems with the current parts of the HTML5 spec for audio and video?
  1417. # [22:14] <MikeSmith> DanC: yeah, I do. I think we should take it out.
  1418. # [22:14] * Quits: howcome (howcome@63.119.44.89) (Ping timeout)
  1419. # [22:15] * Joins: jgraham_ (jgraham@63.119.45.250)
  1420. # [22:15] <Lachy> skypecast wouldn't work
  1421. # [22:16] * Joins: justin (justin@63.119.45.74)
  1422. # [22:16] * Lachy oedipus, what's your skype nick again?
  1423. # [22:16] <MikeSmith> Håkon: first thing that happens when people turn on the OLPC machine is, they see themselves ...
  1424. # [22:16] <MikeSmith> ... because it has a built-in camera ...
  1425. # [22:16] <karl> http://www.laptopgiving.org/
  1426. # [22:17] * Joins: aaronlev_ (chatzilla@63.119.44.88)
  1427. # [22:17] <MikeSmith> ... also Tom-Tom jamming application ...
  1428. # [22:17] * aaronlev_ is now known as aaronlev
  1429. # [22:17] <karl> http://laptopfoundation.org/
  1430. # [22:17] <MikeSmith> [Håkon demo'ing video stuff in special Opera build]
  1431. # [22:17] * oedipus lachy oedipusnj
  1432. # [22:18] <jgraham_> aria people are squatting in rthe empty xsl-fo room
  1433. # [22:19] * Joins: myakura (myakura@63.119.44.133)
  1434. # [22:19] <MikeSmith> [Håkon attempting to show Green-Winged Macaw page from Wikipedia, but having problems]
  1435. # [22:21] * Joins: KevinLawver (kplawver@63.119.45.212)
  1436. # [22:22] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : As I understand it, the goal is to make it easier and more declarative to support videos
  1437. # [22:22] <karl> http://livedocs.adobe.com/contribute/4/using_admin_en/wwhelp/wwhimpl/common/html/wwhelp.htm?context=Using_and_Administering_Contribute&file=00000214.htm
  1438. # [22:22] <MikeSmith> mjs : there's not reason why it needs to be more complicated than <img> for the simple case
  1439. # [22:23] <MikeSmith> DanC: I think the Design Principles document can help grow a set of requirements
  1440. # [22:23] * Joins: anne (annevk@63.119.45.192)
  1441. # [22:23] <MikeSmith> DaveSinger: The justification might help us figure out when we have completed the design.
  1442. # [22:24] <Hixie> The agenda is here: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/F2F
  1443. # [22:24] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : I think some of the goals that mjs has brought up require the Kodak discussion.
  1444. # [22:24] * Hixie changes topic to 'HTML WG meeting - http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/F2F'
  1445. # [22:24] <Bert> agenda+ why are there IMG, VIDEO, EMBED and AUDIO but no TEXT? (Text is one of the most often asked extension for CSS, but it really belongs in HTML, not CSS.)
  1446. # [22:24] * Zakim notes agendum 23 added
  1447. # [22:25] * Joins: Yves (ylafon@128.30.52.30)
  1448. # [22:25] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
  1449. # [22:25] <Hixie> Bert: there is -- <img>, <video>, <embed>, <audio>, <iframe>
  1450. # [22:25] <mjs> MikeSmith: "codec", not "kodak"
  1451. # [22:25] <MikeSmith> ah
  1452. # [22:25] <anne> I don't think the ARIA session is being minuted
  1453. # [22:26] <smedero> Video codec starter issue: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/7
  1454. # [22:26] <smedero> (starting to collect emails and such)
  1455. # [22:26] <oedipus> there are people in the pf channel, but no notes
  1456. # [22:26] <MikeSmith> s/Kodak/codec/
  1457. # [22:26] * MikeSmith was wondering wtf Kodak had to do with anything ...
  1458. # [22:27] * karl Mikesmith with SVG
  1459. # [22:27] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : [re discussion with Dave Singer], you just introduced some "risk of editorship"
  1460. # [22:28] * Quits: glazou_soreThroat (daniel@63.119.45.165) (Connection reset by peer)
  1461. # [22:28] * karl has difficulties to find a good answer for people who say: If video
  1462. # [22:29] * Quits: dglazkov (dglazkov@65.81.81.30) (Quit: dglazkov)
  1463. # [22:29] * kingryan is listening via skype now
  1464. # [22:29] * Joins: glazou_soreThroat (daniel@63.119.45.165)
  1465. # [22:29] * karl .... why not <todo> or <shoppinglist>
  1466. # [22:30] <dsinger_> we need video to get consistent attributes, dom, accessibility; to expose its time-based behavior; to make it a 1st-class citizen that is properly integrated; ...
  1467. # [22:30] * Lachy if anyone else wants to join the skype conf call, let me know your skype nick.
  1468. # [22:30] <MikeSmith> Present+ JonFerraiolo
  1469. # [22:31] * oedipus still has no audio, so will drop to make room for others
  1470. # [22:32] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : there is an open question about how do we do synchronization
  1471. # [22:34] * Quits: glazou_soreThroat (daniel@63.119.45.165) (Connection reset by peer)
  1472. # [22:35] * Joins: glazou (daniel@63.119.45.165)
  1473. # [22:35] <MikeSmith> Present+ DanielGlazman
  1474. # [22:36] * glazou was already on IRC before
  1475. # [22:36] <MikeSmith> [mjs prepares to do demo of video in Webkit]
  1476. # [22:37] <MikeSmith> mjs : this in in the Webkit nightlies
  1477. # [22:37] <MikeSmith> [demoing example of opacity/compositing]
  1478. # [22:38] <MikeSmith> mjs : we will be adding the controls attribute soon ...
  1479. # [22:39] * Joins: Marcos_ (chatzilla@12.6.206.9)
  1480. # [22:39] <MikeSmith> ... and fully supporting soon the complete HTML5 spec for <video>
  1481. # [22:39] <myakura> WebKit Nightlies http://nightly.webkit.org/
  1482. # [22:40] * Joins: howcome (howcome@63.119.44.89)
  1483. # [22:40] * Quits: Marcos (chatzilla@63.119.45.135) (Ping timeout)
  1484. # [22:40] * Marcos_ is now known as Marcos
  1485. # [22:42] <karl> http://www.w3.org/TR/SMIL3/smil-extended-media-object.html#edef-video
  1486. # [22:43] <karl> <par>
  1487. # [22:43] <karl> <video id="carvideo" src="car.rm" region="videoregion" title="Car video"
  1488. # [22:43] <karl> alt="Illustration of relativistic time dilation and length
  1489. # [22:43] <karl> contraction."
  1490. # [22:43] <karl> longdesc="carvideodesc.html" readIndex="3"/>
  1491. # [22:43] <karl> <audio id="caraudio" src="caraudio.rm" region="videoregion"
  1492. # [22:43] <karl> title="Car presentation voiceover" begin="bar.begin"/>
  1493. # [22:43] <karl> <animation id="cardiagram" src="car.svg" region="animregion"
  1494. # [22:43] <karl> title="Diagram of the car" readIndex="2"/>
  1495. # [22:43] <karl> <img id="scvad" src="scv.png" region="videoregion"
  1496. # [22:43] <karl> title="Advertisement for Sugar Coated Vegetables"
  1497. # [22:43] <karl> readIndex="1"/>
  1498. # [22:43] <karl> </par>
  1499. # [22:43] <smedero> doh. dupe issues. :-/
  1500. # [22:44] <MikeSmith> smedero - no problem ... I'll just delete the one I opened
  1501. # [22:44] <smedero> Ahh, thanks
  1502. # [22:46] * Bert did a quick HTML and SMIL comparison: video=video, audio=audio, iframe=text, ??=textstream, ??=animation, img=img, embed=??
  1503. # [22:46] <smedero> useful page: http://people.opera.com/howcome/2007/video/
  1504. # [22:46] <smedero> Ahh, thanks Bert - I'm just about to open up an issue on that
  1505. # [22:46] <karl> where did you put it Bert?
  1506. # [22:46] <anne> object=textstream, object=animation ?
  1507. # [22:47] <Bert> Nowhere, Karl, except here.
  1508. # [22:47] <smedero> Karl, I'm creating an issue
  1509. # [22:47] <smedero> for <video> and SMIL issues
  1510. # [22:47] <Bert> object=ref
  1511. # [22:47] <karl> Bert I think that would be better to have a full comparison not only names but attributes/features too
  1512. # [22:48] * Quits: howcome (howcome@63.119.44.89) (Ping timeout)
  1513. # [22:48] <MikeSmith> Tex: we need a statement of scope
  1514. # [22:48] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : I would like to see us define how autoplay works, and how synchronization works
  1515. # [22:49] <dsinger_> I think how autoplay works is defined
  1516. # [22:49] <MikeSmith> Hixie : current spec is that each <video> element is independent
  1517. # [22:49] <MikeSmith> Håkon: We should err on the side of simplicity
  1518. # [22:50] <MikeSmith> ... what's current in there is a little too much more than most people would need
  1519. # [22:50] <MikeSmith> s/current in there/currently in there/
  1520. # [22:51] <smedero> ChrisWilson: should there be a separate issue for <video>'s autoplay implementation?
  1521. # [22:52] * Quits: kazuhito (kazuhito@63.119.45.157) (Quit: Computer goes to sleep!)
  1522. # [22:52] <Lachy> autoplay is well defined here http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#loading
  1523. # [22:53] <MikeSmith> RESOLUTION: Add AudioVideoScope page to the Wiki
  1524. # [22:53] <karl> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/AudioVideoScope
  1525. # [22:54] <karl> Lachy, you have the wrong uri :p - http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#loading
  1526. # [22:54] <MikeSmith> mjs : YouTube, MySpace, Apple's QuickTime trailer site, Wikipedia are good sites for video examples
  1527. # [22:55] <Lachy> karl, no I don't. The specs are identical
  1528. # [22:55] <Hixie> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/AudioVideoScope
  1529. # [22:55] <Hixie> feel free to stick stuff on there
  1530. # [22:56] <MikeSmith> mjs : If every major browser could support one common video codec, then authors could post just one video format on their site (instead of multiple ones).
  1531. # [22:56] <MikeSmith> ... Ogg, patent risk is more unknown
  1532. # [22:57] * Quits: jun (fujisawa_j@63.119.45.120) (Ping timeout)
  1533. # [22:57] * Quits: anne (annevk@63.119.45.192) (Ping timeout)
  1534. # [22:57] * Lachy just wishes some big company would take the risk with Ogg. The world needs a good, well supported, patent free format!
  1535. # [22:57] <MikeSmith> ... MPEG4, open standard, technically pretty good, used by Apple, haven't been sued yet, but patented and the patent licenses are not cheap ...
  1536. # [22:57] <MikeSmith> ... many mobile devices have built-in support for H264 (MPEG4) ...
  1537. # [22:58] <MikeSmith> ... third candidate is Windows Media ...
  1538. # [22:58] <Lachy> Dirac will be another good alternative when it's finished
  1539. # [22:58] * Joins: howcome (howcome@63.119.44.89)
  1540. # [22:58] <Lachy> it's being developed by the BBC, and since they're big, they're taking the risk of being sued for it
  1541. # [22:58] <MikeSmith> dsinger_ : H263 ... which is also widely supported in mobiles
  1542. # [22:59] <Lachy> or animated GIF! ;-P
  1543. # [22:59] <MikeSmith> mjs : tradeoff of IP issues vs. codec quality
  1544. # [22:59] <karl> http://dirac.sourceforge.net/
  1545. # [22:59] * Quits: jgraham_ (jgraham@63.119.45.250) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  1546. # [22:59] <Philip> Lachy, animated PNG would allow higher quality videos :-)
  1547. # [23:00] * Quits: KevinLawver (kplawver@63.119.45.212) (Quit: KevinLawver)
  1548. # [23:00] <Lachy> but we know GIF patents have expired already :-)
  1549. # [23:00] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : Our legal people do not believe that Ogg Theora has much of any chance of being free from patent issues.
  1550. # [23:01] <karl> http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/dirac/implementations.shtml
  1551. # [23:02] <karl> http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/dirac/index.shtml
  1552. # [23:02] * Quits: justin (justin@63.119.45.74) (Quit: Computer goes to sleep!)
  1553. # [23:02] <karl> http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/dirac/licensing.shtml
  1554. # [23:03] * Joins: anne (annevk@63.119.45.192)
  1555. # [23:04] <MikeSmith> ACTION: Dave Singer to draft a summary of this discussion for the mailing list.
  1556. # [23:04] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  1557. # [23:04] <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Dave
  1558. # [23:04] * RRSAgent records action 17
  1559. # [23:04] * Quits: howcome (howcome@63.119.44.89) (Ping timeout)
  1560. # [23:05] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, reload
  1561. # [23:05] <trackbot-ng> Reloading Tracker config
  1562. # [23:05] * trackbot-ng is loading HTML Issue Tracking data...
  1563. # [23:05] * trackbot-ng found 12 users
  1564. # [23:05] <trackbot-ng> Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
  1565. # [23:05] * karl thinks the discussions are much more civil face to face than in the html wg mailing list and irc. And I find that quite cool.
  1566. # [23:06] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, status
  1567. # [23:06] * trackbot-ng knows about the following 12 users: Anne, Chris, Shawn, Dan, David, Michael(tm), Maciej, James, Gregory, David, Ian, Julian
  1568. # [23:06] <MikeSmith> ACTION: David to draft a summary of this discussion for the mailing list.
  1569. # [23:06] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  1570. # [23:06] <trackbot-ng> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - David
  1571. # [23:06] <trackbot-ng> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. dsinger2, hyatt)
  1572. # [23:06] * RRSAgent records action 18
  1573. # [23:06] * Joins: justin (justin@63.119.45.74)
  1574. # [23:06] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@63.119.44.88) (Ping timeout)
  1575. # [23:06] <MikeSmith> ACTION: dsinger2 to draft a summary of this discussion for the mailing list.
  1576. # [23:06] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  1577. # [23:06] * RRSAgent records action 19
  1578. # [23:06] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-4 - Draft a summary of this discussion for the mailing list. [on David Singer - due 2007-11-15].
  1579. # [23:08] * Joins: jgraham_ (jgraham@63.119.45.250)
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  1583. # [23:09] * Quits: chaals (chaals@63.119.44.72) (Ping timeout)
  1584. # [23:10] <kingryan> spec section reference: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#browser
  1585. # [23:11] <kingryan> right?
  1586. # [23:13] * Quits: gavin (gavin@99.227.30.12) (Ping timeout)
  1587. # [23:13] <smedero> kingryan, yes. or http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-browser.html#browser for folks who loathe the single page version.
  1588. # [23:15] * Joins: chaals (chaals@63.119.44.72)
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  1591. # [23:16] * oedipus notes that the single page version tends to cause some browsers...
  1592. # [23:16] * oedipus continues -- to crash
  1593. # [23:17] <Lachy> simple video test cases: http://lachy.id.au/dev/markup/tests/html5/video/001
  1594. # [23:17] * Quits: justin (justin@63.119.45.74) (Quit: Computer goes to sleep!)
  1595. # [23:17] <Lachy> if someone wants to write some more video test cases, that would be aweome. You can use the videos here http://lachy.id.au/dev/markup/tests/html5/support/
  1596. # [23:17] <smedero> Lachy: the FAIL videos you produced are indirectly hilarious.
  1597. # [23:17] <Lachy> how so?
  1598. # [23:17] <smedero> in the playing off internet lingo sense
  1599. # [23:18] * Quits: chaals (chaals@63.119.44.72) (Client exited)
  1600. # [23:18] * Lachy doesn't get it
  1601. # [23:18] <oedipus> lachy: what UA are you using? the only thing i get is "You should see a video below" and then "FAIL"
  1602. # [23:18] * Joins: chaals (chaals@63.119.44.72)
  1603. # [23:18] <Lachy> oedipus, you need a recent build of Opera with Video support
  1604. # [23:18] <oedipus> ok
  1605. # [23:18] <Lachy> there was one released on labs.opera.com yesterday
  1606. # [23:19] * Joins: gavin (gavin@99.227.30.12)
  1607. # [23:19] <Lachy> http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/a-call-for-video-on-the-web-opera-vid/
  1608. # [23:21] <Philip> (Ooh, 3d canvas too?)
  1609. # [23:22] * Quits: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  1610. # [23:22] * Lachy is looking for some examples of Hixie's old, really badly written test cases :-)
  1611. # [23:22] <Lachy> here's one http://hixie.ch/tests/html40/test41-1b.html - note that pass condition contains red!
  1612. # [23:23] <ChrisWilson> video] http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/127
  1613. # [23:24] <kingryan> +1 to mercurial
  1614. # [23:25] * Joins: aroben_ (aroben@17.203.12.72)
  1615. # [23:25] <gsnedders> +1 to Mercurial
  1616. # [23:25] <kingryan> it separates the acts of creating a changeset and publishing a changeset
  1617. # [23:25] * Quits: aroben (aroben@17.203.12.72) (Ping timeout)
  1618. # [23:26] <kingryan> every working copy is a a full repository
  1619. # [23:26] <gsnedders> (I'd say any distributed SCM over any centralised one, though I have a preference for Mercurial)
  1620. # [23:27] <Philip> (Opera says: cannot find d3d9.dll :-( )
  1621. # [23:27] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30)
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  1623. # [23:29] <kingryan> welcome tantek to the skype conf call
  1624. # [23:31] <tantek> greetings. who on the call is actually at the meeting? i suggest everyone else on the call click the mute (mic with slash) button.
  1625. # [23:31] * Lachy changes topic to 'HTML WG meeting - http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/F2F (Ping Lachy if you want to join the skype conf call)'
  1626. # [23:31] <Lachy> tantek, Marcos is at the meeting
  1627. # [23:33] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.119.44.78) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  1628. # [23:36] <anne> http://tc.labs.opera.com/apis/focus/ has my three tests
  1629. # [23:37] * Quits: MarcinHanclik (maha@63.119.45.244) (Ping timeout)
  1630. # [23:37] <Lachy> anne, 003 needs to give instructions to click the text
  1631. # [23:38] * tantek thought he heard someone say "I can run MacIE"
  1632. # [23:39] <anne> Lachy, no
  1633. # [23:39] <anne> Lachy, maybe to not click the test
  1634. # [23:39] <anne> text
  1635. # [23:39] <Lachy> oh, right.
  1636. # [23:40] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.119.44.78)
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  1638. # [23:43] <smedero> tantek: you did
  1639. # [23:43] * Joins: howcome (howcome@63.119.44.89)
  1640. # [23:44] * Joins: MarcinHanclik (maha@63.119.45.244)
  1641. # [23:44] <kingryan> i think someone just made tantek's day
  1642. # [23:46] * Lachy wonders if someone can put all these test cases up somewhere so I can see what people have made
  1643. # [23:46] * Quits: howcome (howcome@63.119.44.89) (Ping timeout)
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  1648. # [23:48] <janet> http://www.guitaretab.com/t/the-clash/3563.html
  1649. # [23:49] <tantek> is that a test page janet?
  1650. # [23:50] <kingryan> tantek: I think it's an agenda item :)
  1651. # [23:51] * Joins: aaronlev_ (chatzilla@63.119.44.88)
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  1653. # [23:51] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@80.143.152.66) (Ping timeout)
  1654. # [23:53] <ChrisWilson> heheheh
  1655. # [23:54] <ChrisWilson> Yes, Janet, that's an agenda item.
  1656. # [23:55] <ChrisWilson> tantek - you're correct. Maciej found a bug in MacIE. :) I paid him back by finding a couple of bugs in Safari.
  1657. # [23:57] <tantek> nicely done ChrisWilson
  1658. # [23:57] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@63.119.44.88) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 3.0a9pre/2007110505])
  1659. # [23:57] * anne is interested in the tests from ChrisWilson
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  1661. # [23:57] * Quits: mjs (mjs@63.119.44.165) (Quit: mjs)
  1662. # [23:58] <Lachy> I wrote another test case http://lachy.id.au/dev/markup/tests/html5/video/004
  1663. # [23:58] * kingryan thinks that competitive test writing could be good
  1664. # [23:59] * Quits: tlr (roessler@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  1665. # [23:59] <Lachy> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/guidelines.html
  1666. # [23:59] <Lachy> that's for whoever it was Hixie just told to look them up
  1667. # Session Close: Fri Nov 09 00:00:01 2007

The end :)