/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-11-08 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Nov 08 00:00:00 2007
# Session Ident: #html-wg
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# [04:24] <anne2> So I think Timed Text is a no-op
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# [04:25] <anne> Six namespaces, duplicating tons of functionality in HTML and CSS, etc.
# [04:25] <anne> s/no-op/no-go/
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# [12:38] <Philip> Ooh, Opera supports -apple-dashboard-region in CSS
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# [12:56] <Lachy_> yeah, but I think it's a bit strange it was added with the -apple- prefix instead of -o-
# [12:57] <Lachy_> AFIAK, apple widgets aren't compatible with opera widgets anyway
# [13:02] <Philip> Does WebKit still support -apple-dashboard-region? The source code only mentions -webkit-dashboard-region, but maybe they do a s/-apple-/-webkit-/ on the input or something
# [13:04] <Philip> Hmm, Opera doesn't even support some of the dashboard-region syntax from the Apple documentation
# [13:04] <Dashiva> The support is very, very minimal
# [13:05] <Philip> O9.2 reserialises style="-apple-dashboard-region: dashboard-region(control circle 15px 15px 75px 15px);" into STYLE='apple-dashboard-region: circle'
# [13:05] <Philip> but O9.5 handles that correctly
# [13:06] <Philip> ... because it doesn't actually reserialise the style attribute at all
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# [13:07] <Philip> ... so actually O9.5 reserialises into style="-apple-dashboard-region: circle 15px 15px 75px 15px"
# [13:08] <Philip> so O9.2 does look about as minimal as possible, but O9.5 is somewhat better :-)
# [13:08] <Dashiva> Well, let me know if you can make it do something useful
# [13:09] <Philip> I can't see it doing anything in normal web pages, and I don't care about widgets so I have no idea if it does anything there :-p
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# [14:46] <MikeSmith> Kuruma - you around?
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# [16:17] <Lachy_> hey, will there be an audio stream today?
# [16:18] <MikeSmith> Lachy_ - nope
# [16:18] <DanC_lap> hmm... task forces in other languages... great idea for HTML WG
# [16:18] <Lachy_> ok, I guess I'll just have to follow on IRC then
# [16:19] * oedipus says to lachy, that makes at least 12 of us!
# [16:19] <DanC_lap> hmm... MikeSmith , I don't mind if somebody audiocasts the HTML WG meeting
# [16:19] <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - so let's get somebody to do that
# [16:20] <DanC_lap> I'd have to check with Chris W.
# [16:20] <DanC_lap> any volunteers?
# [16:20] <DanC_lap> yes, do try to find somebody, MikeSmith
# [16:20] <MikeSmith> What mechanism were we using to stream the talk yesterday?
# [16:20] <DanC_lap> something kinda elaborate
# [16:21] <DanC_lap> Ralph knows about it
# [16:21] <DanC_lap> and Ted
# [16:21] <MikeSmith> I will check with Ralph and/or Ted then
# [16:21] <DanC_lap> maybe not that elaborate; I think it's on/near media.w3.org
# [16:22] <MikeSmith> k
# [16:22] <oedipus> quick temporary fix? http://www.nch.com.au/streaming/index.html
# [16:22] <MikeSmith> Probably we don't need to have anything set up for the HTMLWG session tomorrow, right?
# [16:22] <hsivonen> just checking: is the f2f starting at 13:30?
# [16:23] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - aye
# [16:23] <Lachy_> can someone please ping me if/when an audio stream is set up and when the meeting starts?
# [16:23] <MikeSmith> anybody hip to ices2?
# [16:24] <MikeSmith> that's what they were using yesterday
# [16:24] <oedipus> re NCH BroadWave you can use it for free provided "This software has two modes. A free version which has full features but requires you to have a link to our site on every page with a link to the stream."
# [16:24] <MikeSmith> we need a machine with ices2 installed
# [16:24] <MikeSmith> and we need a decent microphone
# [16:24] <MikeSmith> microphones are in short supply
# [16:24] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks
# [16:24] <oedipus> BroadWave runs on linux, mac, and windows and is compatible with IE, FF, Safari
# [16:24] <MikeSmith> oedipus - OK
# [16:25] <MikeSmith> I guess the main thing we really need is a mic
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# [16:25] * oedipus notes if a blind medievalist can use it, anyone can use it!
# [16:26] <MikeSmith> How many mics do we rip on the daily? me say many money me say many many man
# [16:26] <MikeSmith> y
# [16:29] <DanC_lap> aye, 13:30 Boston time. http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07
# [16:29] * DanC_lap changes topic to 'HTML WG meeting starts 13:30 in Charles View (more logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )'
# [16:29] * DanC_lap changes topic to 'HTML WG meeting starts 13:30 in Charles View http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07 (more logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )'
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# [16:39] <Lachy_> oedipus, in your response to the survey about publihsing the HTML5 draft, I don't understand your comment about there being competing specs. They aren't competing. The WHATWG spec and the W3C spec are identical (except for the metadata at the top)
# [16:40] <DanC_lap> ROOM CHANGE...
# [16:43] * DanC_lap changes topic to 'HTML WG meeting starts 13:30 in Empress Ballroom on the 14th floor http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07 (more logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )'
# [16:44] <oedipus> lachy - if that is so, then why not commit to a single draft and single track for HTML5? all feedback is welcome, but the only working draft should be the one housed in W3C space; WHAT WG can continue to develop its own version of HTML5, but the normative draft should be the one based upon the original WHAT WG submission to the W3C
# [16:45] <Lachy_> oedipus, the point is we don't want two separate drafts. I don't see the problem in mirroring the same draft in 2 places
# [16:45] <gsnedders> oedipus: not everyone can contribute to the W3C draft sadly
# [16:46] <Lachy_> indeed. the W3C's rules about member organisations and prevent some people from joining the HTMLWG if they are employees of W3C members
# [16:46] <Lachy_> ... and their employers don't nominate them
# [16:47] <MikeSmith> oedipus - what you describe is what the current draft available on the W3C site already is, it seems to me at least
# [16:47] <MikeSmith> it is a single draft
# [16:47] <MikeSmith> just mirrored, as Lachy_ points out
# [16:47] <karl> gsnedders: can you explain why not everyone can contribute?
# [16:47] <gsnedders> karl: Lachy_ just did so
# [16:47] <Lachy_> oedipus, it seems to me that what you're asking us to do, by letting the WHATWG develop it's own version, is exactly what you're saying we shouldn't do
# [16:48] <karl> Lachy: W3C doesn't prevent them to join the group.
# [16:48] <gsnedders> karl: how can they, then?
# [16:48] <oedipus> why then mark the WHAT WG draft as a "Call For Comments � 27 October 2007". and shouldn't the rest of the introductory text at least mention that this is a mirror of the draft in W3C space, and encourage feedback to both fora?
# [16:48] <karl> by going through their employers.
# [16:48] <Lachy_> also, some people choose not to join the HTMLWG due to the volume of traffic and nonsense that goes on there sometimes, whereas they can easily subscribe and contribue to WHATWG since it's much easier to follow
# [16:49] <gsnedders> karl: but if the W3C didn't have that requirement, we wouldn't be in this situation at the first time
# [16:49] <gsnedders> *in the first place
# [16:49] <karl> gsnedders: patent policy is a feature not a bug
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# [16:49] <oedipus> lachy: i'm not going to deny anyone's right to develop or comment upon a specification, but there needs to be a central repository for feedback and issue tracking
# [16:49] <gsnedders> karl: there are people who can't join the WG because their employer won't let them join the WG. it's not a theoretical issue.
# [16:50] <Lachy_> oedipus, because it was a snapshot of the spec as it was on that date, and because publishing a spec there doesn't have to go through the same politics that it goes through in the HTMLWG
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# [16:50] <karl> gsnedders: I would love to know who
# [16:50] <oedipus> lachy, then why submit the spec to the W3C in the first place?
# [16:50] <Lachy_> because we needed the patent policy for other groups of people and organisations to participate
# [16:51] <MikeSmith> oedipus - a central place for issue tracking is doable
# [16:51] <oedipus> right, the W3C issue tracker DanC set up
# [16:51] <MikeSmith> a central place for feedback doesn't seem doable to me
# [16:51] <MikeSmith> any editor can possibly get feedback from a lot of different places
# [16:51] <Lachy_> oedipus, feedback comes from many places around the web, beyond even the HTMLWG and WHATWG lists.
# [16:51] <gsnedders> karl: I know that Sam Ruby couldn't join for quite a while because of it, and I've heard of others
# [16:51] <karl> s/politics/community life/
# [16:52] <MikeSmith> ... feedback from multiple mailing lists, etc.
# [16:52] <oedipus> MikeSmith: but if the feedback funneled to the WHAT WG isn't funneled to the HTML WG, we have separate conversations occuring over ostensively the same document
# [16:52] <karl> gsnedders: yes but he finally joined
# [16:52] <karl> nominated by his ac rep
# [16:52] <MikeSmith> oedipus - we have that anyway, with any spec
# [16:52] <gsnedders> karl: I've heard of others, though I can't remember off the top of my head
# [16:52] <MikeSmith> even within the W3C, discussions may take place on multiple mailing lists
# [16:52] <karl> gsnedders: I heard about black helicopters too flying low above cities
# [16:53] <oedipus> yes, mikeS, but we don't have 2 specs that are self-identified as different drafts -- if what wg wants to host a snapshot, it should be of the W3C draft, and the W3C draft should be pointed to from the WHAT WG draft
# [16:53] <MikeSmith> It seems to me it is the responsibility of HTMLWG members to join those other lists and follow conversations taking place there too
# [16:53] <Lachy_> I said politics and meant it, I didn't mean community life.
# [16:53] <karl> MikeSmith: ++
# [16:53] <MikeSmith> ... if they want to be able to keep up with everything
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# [16:54] <Lachy_> I think it's so ridiculous that we have to hold a vote just to get a FPWD out the door
# [16:54] <karl> Lachy: you will learn it will take times, it took me time too. But I will not try to convince you, it would be useless. :) It's part of life cycle
# [16:54] <gsnedders> oedipus: and should the W3C HTML WG draft point to the WHATWG draft, or does this only apply one way?
# [16:54] <oedipus> MikeS: i'm not against outside feedback, i am concerned about 2 competing drafts, one branded with the W3C style and logo and one branded with the WHAT WG style and logo
# [16:55] * Joins: gavin (gavin@99.227.30.12)
# [16:55] <Lachy_> oedipus, the logo at the top doesn't make any difference. Both specs are identical in every important aspect
# [16:55] <karl> oedipus: take it like translations of W3C specs. it is possible to translate W3C specs in other languages.
# [16:56] <karl> the HTML 5 spec is under w3c document license.
# [16:56] <oedipus> gsnedders: it applys only one way -- the WHAT WG draft was submitted to the HTML WG and a number of companies asked that it be considered the basis for the HTML WG's work -- if that is the case, then why have 2 different drafts?
# [16:56] <karl> and that all matters
# [16:56] <karl> the rest is not very interesting
# [16:56] <MikeSmith> oedipus - we don't have 2 specs, we have one spec ... and I don't think the copies at the the WHATWG and W3C sites are "self identified as different drafts"
# [16:56] <Lachy_> oedipus, why does it matter that the spec is mirrored?
# [16:56] <oedipus> karl: it is possible to translate, but is there a need to translate from english to english?
# [16:57] <oedipus> it doesn't matter that the spec is mirrored, as long as it is the same spec, full stop.
# [16:57] <karl> then it is
# [16:57] <MikeSmith> oedipus - and I don't understand how you see them as competing drafts
# [16:57] <Lachy_> it is the same spec
# [16:57] <Lachy_> different branding doesn't matter at all
# [16:58] <MikeSmith> there is nothing the W3C team can or would want to do to prevent any editors or anybody else from mirroring a copy of a draft if the editors chooses to do so
# [16:58] <karl> oedipus: whatwg feedback is a good source of input for HTML 5 work.
# [16:58] * Quits: billmason (billmason@69.30.57.156) (Quit: .)
# [16:58] <MikeSmith> oedipus - It is the same spec.
# [16:59] <gsnedders> oedipus: do you want to disregard several years worth of comments?
# [16:59] <oedipus> i'm not denying that whatwg feedback is a good source of input, but it is but one source, and the draft should be developed in one place -- if it is truly a mirror of the draft in W3C space, it should explicitly state that, and should actually mirror, rather than reflect
# [17:00] <oedipus> gsnedders: no, i'm not disregarding "several years of feedback" i'm concerned that it will take many many more years of feedback under current conditions to arrive at a truly stable state
# [17:00] * Philip wonders if it'd be difficult to put the multipage version in W3C space
# [17:01] <MikeSmith> oedipus - The source is developed in one place, and published in two places.
# [17:01] <MikeSmith> Philip - no, it would not be difficult
# [17:01] <oedipus> i'm still wondering what lachy meant by "both specs are identical in every important aspect"
# [17:02] * Joins: DanC_lap (connolly@128.30.52.30)
# [17:02] <Philip> (Hmm, I was going to try fixing the multipage generator to be less bad, but I think I forgot about that months ago...)
# [17:02] <oedipus> if they are mirrors of each other, they should be identical in EVERY aspect
# [17:02] * DanC_lap is struggling to understand oedipus's concern
# [17:02] <Lachy_> oedipus, the header of the spec is not really that important. The important aspects include everything from the Abstract down.
# [17:03] <oedipus> if that's the case, then why insist on having 2 versions of ostensively the same spec? it simply doesn't make any sense...
# [17:03] <DanC_lap> the header of the spec is quite important; it's about endorsement, branding, etc. the HTML 5 spec currently has two publishers. could be worse.
# [17:03] <MikeSmith> oedipus - who would you suggest should enforce this identical-in-every-aspect constraint?
# [17:03] <Philip> Lachy_: They have different abstracts
# [17:04] <Lachy_> s/Abstract/TOC/
# [17:04] <Philip> (and different "status of this document"s)
# [17:04] <MikeSmith> ... and how would you imagine they'd be able to do it?
# [17:04] <oedipus> 2 publishers, 2 fora, 2 streams
# [17:04] <DanC_lap> it makes sense to me that there's still momentum in the WHATWG, oedipus
# [17:04] <MikeSmith> Like I said, anybody is free to mirror anything from the W3C site if they choose to.
# [17:04] <DanC_lap> no, they're not, MikeSmith
# [17:04] <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - why not?
# [17:04] * Philip likes the WHATWG green more than the W3C blue
# [17:05] <DanC_lap> we have a mirroring policy
# [17:05] * oedipus doesn't care if it is green, blue or purple -- it should be the same if it proclaims to be a "mirror"
# [17:05] <DanC_lap> MikeSmith, see http://www.w3.org/1999/10/21-mirroring-policy
# [17:05] <Lachy_> the W3C editor's draft is lacking a copyright statement
# [17:05] <DanC_lap> it's not a mirror; it's separately published
# [17:06] <oedipus> DanC: you hit on my concern -- it is separately published -- how and who ensures that they are in sync?
# [17:06] <DanC_lap> hixie does
# [17:06] <oedipus> by the way, DanC, regrets for not physically attending the f2f - medical problems made it feasible only to participate remotely
# [17:06] <Lachy_> oedipus, they are both generated from the same source by the same editor
# [17:06] <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - so I will qualify my statement by saying that anybody is free to mirror anything as long as they comply with the mirroring policy
# [17:07] <DanC_lap> yes, sorry to hear that, oedipus ; your regrets were relayed to me by mutual friends
# [17:07] <DanC_lap> yes, and the mirroring policy is basically: if you want to mirror anything, you need to mirror everything; we'll help you.
# [17:07] <oedipus> i'm not anti-whatwg, i just want to ensure that there is one draft that is the basis for mirroring
# [17:07] <MikeSmith> ah
# [17:07] <Lachy_> it's also important that the WHATWG publish it because it has a much more liberal copyright than the W3C does
# [17:07] <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - dinnet know that
# [17:08] <Philip> Would the W3C licences permit publishing of modified versions of the spec, like for http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/spec.html ?
# [17:08] <Lachy_> don't think so
# [17:08] <gsnedders> there are people like myself and anne who have our own specs with parts of text based upon HTML 5 text
# [17:08] <Lachy_> Philip, http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/2002/copyright-documents-20021231
# [17:08] <oedipus> how does the WHAT WG and W3C copyright differences affect the spec? i raised this as a concern before (also in regards differing copyright statements in WF2)
# [17:09] <DanC_lap> I'm not an expert in what our licenses might allow. We do have a copyright faq http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/IPR-FAQ-20000620
# [17:09] <oedipus> DanC: thanks for the pointers
# [17:09] <DanC_lap> welcome
# [17:09] <oedipus> i just think we need to step back, and align all of the ducks in an orderly row...
# [17:10] <DanC_lap> the ducks seem to be having a pretty good time wandering around
# [17:10] * Quits: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Leaving)
# [17:10] <DanC_lap> if we put out food, they'll come by
# [17:10] <Lachy_> the W3C's document licence does indeed allow copies of the spec to be hosted anywhere, but doesn't allow modifications
# [17:11] <Lachy_> they just require the inclusion of the copyright notice
# [17:11] <oedipus> the momentum of the 2 groups should spur one another, not be mutually exclusive (albeit by individuals' individual choices)
# [17:12] <Lachy_> oedipus, the barrier between the two groups is mostly artificial as far as work on the spec is concerned.
# [17:12] <oedipus> that's why i didn't object to the issuing of the draft, but expressed concerns i would like to allay before giving a thumbs up --
# [17:13] <oedipus> lachy: so whatever we can do to break down those artificial barriers, the better the growth and maturity of the HTML5 draft
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# [17:13] <DanC_lap> trackbot-ng, status
# [17:13] * trackbot-ng knows about the following 2 users: Chris, Dan
# [17:14] <DanC_lap> oedipus, hurl me an url for "Marghanita da Cruz's comments"? (cf http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wdhdp/results )
# [17:15] <oedipus> DanC: re the ducks, we should be attempting to get them eating out of the same trough -- or at least to swim in one anothers ponds more often
# [17:15] <DanC_lap> oh, only to some extent
# [17:15] <DanC_lap> yes, ponds more often
# [17:16] <oedipus> DanC: the comments by marghanita da cruz are in her reply to the same question
# [17:16] <DanC_lap> too bad you couldn't make it to the pond here in Boston. :-/
# [17:16] <DanC_lap> ah...
# [17:17] <oedipus> thanks, DanC -- i think my water is getting a bit "stale" here and am chomping at the bit (to mix animal metaphors) to actually get to meet and sit down and discuss thing with others
# [17:17] * Joins: dglazkov (dglazkov@65.81.81.30)
# [17:17] <DanC_lap> ACTION DanC: consider "inconsistency in the document is the use of examples" from da Cruz in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wdhdp/results
# [17:17] * RRSAgent records action 12
# [17:17] <DanC_lap> ACTION: Dan consider "inconsistency in the document is the use of examples" from da Cruz in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wdhdp/results
# [17:17] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [17:17] * RRSAgent records action 13
# [17:17] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-1 - Consider \"inconsistency in the document is the use of examples\" from da Cruz in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wdhdp/results [on Dan Connolly - due 2007-11-15].
# [17:18] <dglazkov> wow, this is cool
# [17:18] <dglazkov> DanC_lap, have a sec?
# [17:20] <oedipus> perhaps what is needed is someone (or someones) to commit issues raised and debated in the WHAT WG fora to the HTML WG's Issue Tracker?
# [17:21] * Joins: timbl_ (timbl@63.119.45.160)
# [17:21] <Lachy_> oedipus, sure, that can be done for future discussions
# [17:22] <oedipus> lachy: what about the backlog of issues raised by whatwg participants which hixie has often cited?
# [17:22] <Lachy_> but the existing feedback needs to continue to be processed as it currently is, since it would take too much effort to process and log all 3000+ emails hixie has in his archive
# [17:24] <oedipus> it's like every other human endeavor -- the more we work together, the less antagonism (real or perceived) between the 2 working groups, but there has to be 1 draft off of which we are all working, and i believe that to be the draft submitted to the W3C
# [17:27] * Joins: robburns (robburns@24.1.195.65)
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# [17:29] * Joins: mjs (mjs@68.160.33.79)
# [17:29] <oedipus> DanC: did i ever officially (via the list) report back that i completed my first action item from the last HTML WG telecon? at 1:10 PM EDT 11/1/2007 i sent the following: 1) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Nov/0001.html and 2) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Nov/0007.html (the same post in both places)
# [17:30] <oedipus> i'm also working on the CSS action item, as well
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# [17:34] <mjs> hey everyone
# [17:35] * Joins: aaronlev (chatzilla@63.119.44.88)
# [17:35] <aaronlev> DanC_lap: when do you want mike to do the aria demo?
# [17:36] <aaronlev> when does the meeting start, etc.
# [17:36] <oedipus> 13:30
# [17:36] <aaronlev> k
# [17:36] <aaronlev> oedipus: i had to throw out what diego built
# [17:36] <DanC_lap> I haven't picked a time for the aria demo; can we keep it loose? or is somebody coordinating across rooms?
# [17:36] <oedipus> yeah, i noticed that -- i haven't heard back from him yet
# [17:37] <aaronlev> DanC_lap: that's fine as long as we have a ballpark
# [17:37] <aaronlev> we'll come in after lunch
# [17:37] <aaronlev> oedipus: i went back to a prev version of the mozilla.org example and fixed it
# [17:37] <oedipus> aaronlev: good news! hans hillen should also be involved in testing and sample coding
# [17:37] <DanC_lap> aaronlev, does http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07 give you enough of a ballpark?
# [17:38] <aaronlev> oedipus: yes he should
# [17:38] <aaronlev> DanC_lap: yes, thanks
# [17:38] <aaronlev> oedipus: the new crash in ff3 was actually 2 separate problems, i have fixes pending
# [17:38] <oedipus> aaronlev: i'll ping hans offline and let him know that he posted his query to the right place
# [17:38] <aaronlev> oedipus: but for now it's wise to avoid sub-sub aria menus with that example in ff3
# [17:39] <aaronlev> oedipus: i want people to put their testing results in the page everyone looks at, can you do that?
# [17:39] <oedipus> aaronlev: i was considering a menu only example to precede the spreadsheet, which introduces 2 concepts -- might be better to demonstrate a menu, before demonstrating a menu in conjunction with another widget
# [17:39] <aaronlev> oedipus: scott haeger just updated it to add Orca results, and I've asked Charles Chen to do it with Fire Vox
# [17:40] <aaronlev> oedipus: mike is going to do a tree view
# [17:40] <oedipus> aaronlev: yes, i will use the test result matrix at mozilla
# [17:40] <aaronlev> i think that's a more valid example anyway
# [17:40] <oedipus> aaronlev: i agree -- plus, the tree views work rather well
# [17:40] <aaronlev> because we can show it using shipping dojo widgets
# [17:40] <oedipus> aaronlev: precisely
# [17:40] * DanC_lap wonders about , vs : in IRC... RRSAgent's sense is different from the IRC community norm...
# [17:40] <aaronlev> working in actual released software
# [17:41] <aaronlev> oedipus: this is the page that has the compatibility matrix, i really want to keep it up-to-date: http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA:_Accessible_Rich_Internet_Applications
# [17:41] <oedipus> aaronlev: i think things will shake out well, now that there's a central repository for test results and a designated list (wai-xtech) for discussion/coordination
# [17:41] <oedipus> aaronlev: thanks for the pointer
# [17:43] <oedipus> aaronlev: chaals mcn was testing the materials with opera on a mac -- don't know if he has any useful data yet or not
# [17:44] * DanC_lap figures he'll use a text editor to address the , vs : thingy
# [17:45] <oedipus> DanC: does oedipus: and oedipus, have a different meaning in RRSAgent? does a colon indicate attribution or an address to another user, or should that be handled with a comma?
# [17:46] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233) (Ping timeout)
# [17:47] <DanC_lap> the RRSAgent/scribe.perl tools treat : as attribution (a la Juliet: Romeo, Romeo ...). In W3C meetings, we tend to use traditional (chicago manual of style) comma for direct address
# [17:47] <oedipus> thanks for the clarification -- i've just followed others' (apparently bad) practices
# [17:49] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@63.119.44.88) (Ping timeout)
# [17:49] <DanC_lap> whether the evolution in norms is good or bad is hard to say... it's a bit of a pain given current scribe.perl design
# [17:50] <DanC_lap> I think it's not cost-effective to train people in this channel to reconfigure their IRC clients and such.
# [17:50] <oedipus> agreed
# [17:50] <DanC_lap> I can just use a text editor to supplement scribe.perl
# [17:52] <karl> A new version of scribe.perl is at work with a complete refactoring and test cases. If you need features, it might be good to propose things. Send an email to david booth cc: www-archive
# [17:53] <DanC_lap> does anybody know Philip TAYLOR well enough to understand his formal objection in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd11spec/results better than I do?
# [17:54] <DanC_lap> MikeSmith, do you know him?
# [17:54] <DanC_lap> ah... thanks for the reminder, karl
# [17:54] <DanC_lap> karl, do you have bandwidth to chat with Philip TAYLOR?
# [17:55] <oedipus> DanC: do you mean quote No, we have not yet agreed the Design Principles. Without those, the specification has no formal basis for existence, and premature publication could jeopardise the reputation of the Working Group. unquote?
# [17:55] * Quits: jun (fujisawa_j@63.119.45.120) (Ping timeout)
# [17:55] <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - don't know him
# [17:55] <DanC_lap> yes, that one.
# [17:56] <mjs> is it easy to obtain lunch and coffee somewhere at the hotel?
# [17:56] <DanC_lap> do you have bandwidth to phone him or something, MikeSmith ?
# [17:56] <mjs> I'm thinking of heading over soon
# [17:56] <DanC_lap> it's straightforward though expensive, I think, mjs
# [17:57] <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - I'd be glad to call him if you think that would help
# [17:57] <mjs> other option is I could walk the other way from where I'm staying to Central Square
# [17:57] <DanC_lap> trackbot-ng, status
# [17:57] * trackbot-ng knows about the following 2 users: Chris, Dan
# [17:57] <MikeSmith> mjs - there is rumored to be a restaurant about 10 minutes walk
# [17:57] <DanC_lap> MikeSmith, why doesn't trackbot-ng know the other folks in the issue tracking group?
# [17:57] <DanC_lap> I want to give you an action
# [17:57] <oedipus> DanC, i'm not quite sure, and don't know PhilipT personally
# [17:57] <karl> DanC_lap: I can try to discuss with him. :) not sure that he will agree, but I can try. It might be just misunderstandings
# [17:58] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@88.91.99.29) (Quit: Leaving)
# [17:58] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@88.91.99.29)
# [17:58] <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - dunno. I think I may need to ask systeam to add me
# [17:58] <mjs> MikeSmith: I know the area pretty well, just not the hotel
# [17:58] <DanC_lap> right, karl, I'm not asking you to convince him of anything; just listen
# [17:58] * mjs is willing to blow some cash for the sake of laziness
# [17:58] <MikeSmith> mjs - they got candy bars and potato chips in the convenience store in the lobby
# [17:58] <DanC_lap> MikeSmith, you're already added to http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/ ; somehow trackbot-ng doesn't seem to be consulting that list
# [17:58] <MikeSmith> and cookies
# [17:59] * karl wonders if there is shuttles from Galleria to the hotel
# [17:59] <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - will ask on sysreq now
# [17:59] <karl> because there is food at the Galleria Cambridge
# [17:59] <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - hang one
# [17:59] <MikeSmith> on
# [18:00] <MikeSmith> try ACTION: Michael(tm) maybe
# [18:00] <DanC_lap> no... look:
# [18:00] <DanC_lap> trackbot-ng, status
# [18:00] * trackbot-ng knows about the following 2 users: Chris, Dan
# [18:00] <MikeSmith> oh
# [18:00] <MikeSmith> I see now
# [18:01] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, reload
# [18:01] <trackbot-ng> Reloading Tracker config
# [18:01] * trackbot-ng is loading HTML Issue Tracking data...
# [18:01] * trackbot-ng found 11 users
# [18:01] <trackbot-ng> Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
# [18:01] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, statsu
# [18:01] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, status
# [18:01] * trackbot-ng knows about the following 11 users: Chris, Shawn, Dan, Anne, Michael(tm), Maciej, James, Gregory, David, Ian, Julian
# [18:01] <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - there you go
# [18:02] * Quits: robburns (robburns@24.1.195.65) (Quit: robburns)
# [18:02] <DanC_lap> thanks... now... did it lose the action I gave above? I guess it's easy enough to do again...
# [18:02] <oedipus> DanC: i think PhilipT's position hasn't changed since the first polls -- he'd rather have a statement of design principles released, garner feedback, and hammered into concensus and rereleased before releasing a working draft
# [18:02] <DanC_lap> ACTION: Dan consider "inconsistency in the document is the use of examples" from da Cruz in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wdhdp/results
# [18:02] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [18:02] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2 - Consider \"inconsistency in the document is the use of examples\" from da Cruz in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wdhdp/results [on Dan Connolly - due 2007-11-15].
# [18:02] * RRSAgent records action 14
# [18:03] <DanC_lap> oops; dup. oh well
# [18:03] * MikeSmith reckons it would likely be better for karl to talk with that particular Philip Taylor than it would be for me ...
# [18:03] <DanC_lap> I'm gonna assign the formal objection action to MikeSmith cuz he's in the tracker, but you're more than welcome to help, karl
# [18:04] <MikeSmith> karl - おねがいします
# [18:05] <DanC_lap> ACTION: Michael (tm) contact Philip TAYLOR to help the chairs better understand his formal objection in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd11spec/results
# [18:05] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [18:05] <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Michael
# [18:05] * RRSAgent records action 15
# [18:05] * MikeSmith notes that he is _a_ tracker but is _the_ wrangler
# [18:05] <MikeSmith> DanC_lap - gotta do Michael(tm)
# [18:05] <DanC_lap> ACTION: Michael(tm) contact Philip TAYLOR to help the chairs better understand his formal objection in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd11spec/results
# [18:05] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [18:05] * RRSAgent records action 16
# [18:05] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-3 - Contact Philip TAYLOR to help the chairs better understand his formal objection in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wd11spec/results [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2007-11-15].
# [18:06] * MikeSmith notes it's getting near lunchtime and patent policy discussion has made me really hungry
# [18:07] <MikeSmith> that breakfast of Twix bar and tea don't quite keep me going
# [18:07] <MikeSmith> can of Guiness Extra Stout at 10:30 helped a bit though
# [18:08] <oedipus> MikeSmith: so, until 13:30 local time, the channel is open for outside the face2face discussions?
# [18:08] <MikeSmith> oedipus - which channel
# [18:08] <DanC_lap> hmm... I think I'm gonna need IRC watchers in the meeting. maybe that'll take care of itself
# [18:09] <oedipus> Mike(tm) Smith, well, if this channel is reserved for the f2f we can move to another? or is there already an html-f2f channel?
# [18:09] <DanC_lap> this is the channel for the ftf
# [18:09] <oedipus> ok
# [18:10] <DanC_lap> people can make side channels for break-outs or whatever, provided they invite RRSAgent along and make logs world-access
# [18:10] <oedipus> will keep the side conversations to a minumum and use the q commands to enter the queue after 13:30
# [18:10] <MikeSmith> oedipus - for q, I guess we'll need to /invite Zakim
# [18:10] <oedipus> DOH!
# [18:11] <MikeSmith> we could go ahead and do now I guess
# [18:11] <DanC_lap> sure
# [18:11] <oedipus> it makes sense to me, but i'm just a schlub
# [18:11] <DanC_lap> I wonder if zakim can be the keeper of the unconference session titles and places!
# [18:12] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
# [18:12] <DanC_lap> agenda + Welcome/Convene
# [18:12] * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
# [18:12] * Quits: timbl_ (timbl@63.119.45.160) (Quit: timbl_)
# [18:12] <DanC_lap> agenda + Which end of W3C is up? Q&A session
# [18:12] * Zakim notes agendum 2 added
# [18:13] <DanC_lap> agenda + ARIA demo Al Gilman]
# [18:13] * Zakim notes agendum 3 added
# [18:13] <DanC_lap> agenda 3 = ARIA demo [Al Gilman]
# [18:13] * Zakim notes agendum 3 replaced
# [18:13] <DanC_lap> agenda + Data Tables [Ben Millard]
# [18:13] * Zakim notes agendum 4 added
# [18:13] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.119.44.78) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
# [18:13] <DanC_lap> agenda + Demo: HTML+CSS as Flash Killer [Maciej Stachowiak]
# [18:13] * Zakim notes agendum 5 added
# [18:14] <DanC_lap> agenda + Unconference pitches
# [18:14] * Zakim notes agendum 6 added
# [18:14] <DanC_lap> this will work great; zakim can time speakers for the 1/2/3 minute unconference pitches
# [18:14] * DanC_lap has been stressed a bit about how that stuff would work. whew.
# [18:15] <DanC_lap> Thanks for Zakim, ralph!
# [18:15] * Joins: anne (annevk@63.119.45.192)
# [18:15] <DanC_lap> RRSAgent, pointer?
# [18:15] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-irc#T17-14-56
# [18:16] <anne> is there place so sit and WiFi on the sixteenth floor already?
# [18:18] <MikeSmith> anne - dunno. Haven't been up there yet today
# [18:18] <anne> k, thanks
# [18:19] * anne sits in the lobby atm
# [18:19] * anne wnet out for a walk and ipod stuff
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# [18:22] * MikeSmith heads off to lunch ... will be in meeting room from 1pm or thereabouts
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# [19:23] <MikeSmith> Lachy - no streaming audio, unfortunately
# [19:23] <MikeSmith> but we may be able to set up a telephone bridge
# [19:23] <MikeSmith> if you want to call in
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# [19:27] * Joins: Philip_ (philip@80.177.163.133)
# [19:27] <Hixie> in case anyone is on the 16th floor wondering where everyone else is, the meeting is now on the 14th floor
# [19:28] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07
# [19:28] <Hixie> Zakim, agenda?
# [19:28] <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
# [19:28] <Zakim> 1. Welcome/Convene [from DanC_lap]
# [19:28] <Zakim> 2. Which end of W3C is up? Q&A session [from DanC_lap]
# [19:28] <Zakim> 3. ARIA demo [Al Gilman]
# [19:28] <Zakim> 4. Data Tables [from Ben Millard via DanC_lap]
# [19:28] <Zakim> 5. Demo: HTML+CSS as Flash Killer [from Maciej Stachowiak via DanC_lap]
# [19:28] * Joins: myakura (myakura@63.119.44.133)
# [19:28] * Joins: Nick (nickVdB@63.119.45.133)
# [19:28] <Zakim> 6. Unconference pitches [from DanC_lap]
# [19:29] * Joins: Chris (CWilso@63.119.44.171)
# [19:29] * anne wonders if the meeting started
# [19:29] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.119.44.78)
# [19:29] <Chris> not yet, just prepping
# [19:29] * Joins: lm (W3CIRC@63.119.45.147)
# [19:29] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft inutes
# [19:29] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'please draft inutes', MikeSmith. Try /msg RRSAgent help
# [19:29] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
# [19:29] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [19:29] * Joins: mauro (mauro@128.30.52.30)
# [19:29] * Chris is now known as ChrisWilson
# [19:29] <anne> k
# [19:29] * Quits: Philip (philip@80.177.163.133) (Ping timeout)
# [19:29] * Hixie changes topic to 'HTML WG meeting in Empress Ballroom on the 14th floor - http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07 - http://esw.w3.org/topic/ZakimDemo'
# [19:30] * Joins: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30)
# [19:30] * Joins: Marcos (chatzilla@12.6.206.9)
# [19:31] <MikeSmith> Meeting: HTML Working Group November f2f Day One
# [19:31] <MikeSmith> Chair: DanConnolly, ChrisWilson
# [19:31] <MikeSmith> Present+ KarlDubost
# [19:31] <Lachy> MikeSmith, unfortunately, I can't call in, since I don't have a phone at home.
# [19:32] <MikeSmith> Present+ MikkoHonkala
# [19:32] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30)
# [19:32] <MikeSmith> Present+ MichaelCooper
# [19:32] <Lachy> MikeSmith, it would be good if you could set up skype
# [19:32] <MikeSmith> Present+ MarcinHanclik
# [19:32] <MikeSmith> Lachy - no can do
# [19:32] * Joins: justin (justin@63.119.45.74)
# [19:32] <MikeSmith> Present+ HenriSivonen
# [19:32] <MikeSmith> Present+ JamesGraham
# [19:33] <MikeSmith> Present+ AnneVanKesteren
# [19:33] <MikeSmith> Present+ fromBoeing
# [19:33] <MikeSmith> Present+ JoshueOConnor
# [19:33] * Joins: timbl (timbl@63.119.45.160)
# [19:33] <MikeSmith> Present+ MarcusMilke
# [19:33] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
# [19:34] * Philip_ is now known as Philip
# [19:34] <MikeSmith> Present+ BobHopgood
# [19:34] <MikeSmith> Present+ Mauro
# [19:34] <MikeSmith> Present+ TexTexin
# [19:34] * Joins: smedero (smedero@63.119.44.183)
# [19:34] <MikeSmith> Present+ TravisFromMicrosoft
# [19:34] <MikeSmith> Present+ MasatakaYakura
# [19:34] <smedero> Ugh, traffic - just got to the Hyatt.
# [19:35] <MikeSmith> Present+ KazuhitoKidachi
# [19:35] <smedero> Is the meeting on the 14th floor still?
# [19:35] <MikeSmith> Present+ DaveSinger
# [19:35] <MikeSmith> Present+ MaciejStokowiak
# [19:35] * mauro to smedero, yes
# [19:35] * Joins: tantek (tantek@70.13.24.31)
# [19:35] <smedero> thanks
# [19:35] * Quits: smedero (smedero@63.119.44.183) (Quit: smedero)
# [19:35] <MikeSmith> Present+ DavidBaron
# [19:35] <MikeSmith> Present+ LesliefromLosAlamos
# [19:36] <MikeSmith> Present+ NickFromLosAlamos
# [19:36] <MikeSmith> Present+ AaronLeventhal
# [19:36] <MikeSmith> Present+ MikeSmith
# [19:36] * Joins: karl (karlcow@128.30.52.30)
# [19:36] <anne> Zakim, close agendum 1
# [19:36] <Zakim> agendum 1, Welcome/Convene, closed
# [19:36] <MikeSmith> Zakim, close agendum 1
# [19:36] <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
# [19:36] <Zakim> 2. Which end of W3C is up? Q&A session [from DanC_lap]
# [19:36] <Zakim> agendum 1, Welcome/Convene, closed
# [19:36] <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
# [19:36] <Zakim> 2. Which end of W3C is up? Q&A session [from DanC_lap]
# [19:36] * Joins: dsinger (daithesong@63.119.45.128)
# [19:36] * anne .. hah
# [19:37] * MikeSmith wonders who is scribing? me?
# [19:37] * oedipus if mike smith can't set up a skype conference call to broadcast audio there are probably several people in the room with skype that can simply turn their laptop's internal mic on -- in any event, should anyone decide to audiocast, my skypename is: oedipusnj
# [19:38] * karl will help MikeSmith
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# [19:38] * Joins: Markus (winterwolf@63.119.44.149)
# [19:38] <MikeSmith> oedipus - DanC says he would rather not right now, but we can play around later at the break
# [19:39] * Joins: smedero (smedero@63.119.44.183)
# [19:39] <MikeSmith> I missed a few people when I did the present list
# [19:39] <MikeSmith> So if you are on IRC and don't see your name on the following list:
# [19:39] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
# [19:39] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [19:39] * Joins: Pion (3f772c3c@128.30.52.23)
# [19:39] <mauro> zakim, who is here?
# [19:39] <Zakim> sorry, mauro, I don't know what conference this is
# [19:39] <Zakim> On IRC I see Pion, smedero, Markus, mikko_honkala, dsinger, karl, tantek, timbl, justin, Marcos, MichaelC, mauro, lm, dbaron, ChrisWilson, Nick, myakura, Philip, mjs, MikeSmith,
# [19:39] <Zakim> ... kazuhito, aaronlev, anne, jgraham_, hober, gavin, robburns, aroben, Zakim, Lachy, matt, dglazkov, hasather, oedipus, tH, ROBOd, Lionheart, Hixie, heycam, laplink, bogi,
# [19:39] <Zakim> ... gsnedders, Thezilch, jane, krijnh, deltab, Dashiva, jmb, Kuruma, gavin_, beowulf, jgraham, drry, hsivonen, trackbot-ng, Bob_le_Pointu, RRSAgent
# [19:39] <karl> [Danc is explaining the process document with a drawing of Ian Hickson]
# [19:40] <MikeSmith> ...then please do a "Present+ YourName" to add yourself to the present list
# [19:40] <MikeSmith> please
# [19:40] <smedero> Present +ShawnMedero
# [19:40] <hober> What if you're in IRC but not at the TP?
# [19:40] * anne likes how snakes can go from a public draft straight to PR
# [19:40] <smedero> heh.
# [19:41] <MikeSmith> Present+ NoahMendelsohn
# [19:41] <Hixie> anne: snakes go from the head to the tail
# [19:41] <anne> http://ln.hixie.ch/media/comics/hixie/w3c-snakes-and-ladders.png
# [19:41] <anne> Hixie, oh, so I got them backwards
# [19:41] <MikeSmith> hober - then please do, e.g., YourName_IRC_only or something like that
# [19:42] <ChrisWilson> is this an internationalization difference? (In the US I think the game is marketed as chutes & ladders)
# [19:42] <anne> (the above ln.hixie.ch image is being discussed)
# [19:42] <MikeSmith> Present+ ShawnHenry
# [19:42] <karl> anne, there are steps you can jump over. Basically there are entrance criterias not exit criterias
# [19:43] <MikeSmith> Present+ OlivierTheroux
# [19:43] <hober> Present+ EdwardOConnor_IRC_only
# [19:43] <MikeSmith> Present+ BertBos
# [19:43] <gsnedders> Present +GeoffreySneddon_IRC_only
# [19:43] <hsivonen> so the snakes went from each stage backwards
# [19:43] <mauro> Meeting: HTML WG F2F Meeting
# [19:43] <Lachy> Present+ LachlanHunt_IRC_only
# [19:44] * Joins: jun (fujisawa_j@63.119.45.120)
# [19:44] <gsnedders> Present+ GeoffreySneddon_IRC_only
# [19:44] <MikeSmith> q?
# [19:44] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:44] <mauro> q?
# [19:44] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:44] <smedero> Present+ ShawnMedero
# [19:44] * smedero made a stupid typo
# [19:44] <gavin_> Present+ GavinSharp_IRC_only
# [19:44] * Joins: Dennis (forty4@63.119.45.205)
# [19:46] <dglazkov> Present+ DimitriGlazkov_IRC_only
# [19:46] * Quits: robburns (robburns@24.1.195.65) (Quit: robburns)
# [19:47] <karl> Topic: introduction on aria
# [19:47] <MichaelC> ARIA Overview: http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/aria
# [19:47] <hsivonen> Ben arrived
# [19:47] <MikeSmith> Aron Leventhal speaking about ARIA ... ARIA intro
# [19:47] <ChrisWilson> http://www.w3.org/TR/aria-roadmap/ is a useful start too.
# [19:48] <MikeSmith> 32 or more states in a typical accessibility ABI(?)
# [19:48] <MichaelC> s/ABI(?)/API
# [19:48] <hsivonen> MSAA
# [19:49] <MikeSmith> aaronlev : MSAA (Microsoft Active Accessibility) ...
# [19:49] <MikeSmith> Mike Spilachi arrives
# [19:49] <MichaelC> s/Spilachi/Squillace
# [19:49] <ChrisWilson> Good overview/start to MSAA is http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms697707.aspx
# [19:49] <MikeSmith> aaronlev : HTML is missing basic things that we have on the desktop ...
# [19:50] <MikeSmith> ... ridiculous, for example, that we don't have a tree-view [mechanism] in HTML
# [19:50] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30)
# [19:50] <MikeSmith> ... widget toolkit takes care of a lot of the work
# [19:51] * Joins: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30)
# [19:51] <gsnedders> The number of common widgets that need to be implemented time and time again with JS is maddening
# [19:51] <MikeSmith> ... because of DOM ability for mutation events, can fire an event for [accessibility needs]
# [19:51] <hsivonen> info on ARIA: http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA:_Accessible_Rich_Internet_Applications/Relationship_to_HTML_FAQ
# [19:51] <MikeSmith> ... the hard work is on the side of the JS author
# [19:52] <MikeSmith> Scribenick: MikeSmith
# [19:52] <gsnedders> In parts you'll never get as good accessibility with JS as you would with native widgets
# [19:52] <gsnedders> s/In parts/At times/
# [19:52] <MikeSmith> [getting sound from Mike Spilachi's machine plugged in]
# [19:52] * Joins: Bert (bbos@128.30.52.28)
# [19:53] <MichaelC> s/Spilachi/Squillace/G
# [19:53] * shepazu notes that joint HTML/WebAPI members might want to watch the WebAPI IRC
# [19:53] <ChrisWilson> gsnedders - that's the semantic problem ARIA tries to address
# [19:53] <MikeSmith> Marcos is videotaping Mike's demo
# [19:53] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
# [19:53] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [19:53] <gsnedders> ChrisWilson: even with the complete ARIA, I still have my doubts about whether we can recreate everything
# [19:54] <gsnedders> [that could be done natively]
# [19:54] <ChrisWilson> by adding all the relevant controls and semantics to HTML, you mean?
# [19:54] <MikeSmith> Mike slows down his JAWS to 20% and mjs jokes it reminds him of TimBL slowed-down take from yesterday
# [19:55] * ChrisWilson thinks Tim slowed down to more than 20%.
# [19:55] <MikeSmith> [Mike is pressing controls in a webapp and getting feedback from jaws]
# [19:56] <gsnedders> ChrisWilson: the diversity of AT platforms and how they are implemented makes me wonder whether one thing could really support everything
# [19:56] <MikeSmith> Demo is "Happy Time Pizza On-line Ordering System"
# [19:56] <anne> (ARIA is very low-level)
# [19:56] * Quits: mjs (mjs@63.119.44.165) (Quit: mjs)
# [19:56] * Joins: mjs (mjs@63.119.44.165)
# [19:56] * MikeSmith wonders if somebody already put the URL for the demo?
# [19:57] <ChrisWilson> that's true, but the idea of ARIA (and similar ATs) is to allow mapping application components to a smaller, more high-level semantic set of controls.
# [19:57] <oedipus> no
# [19:57] <olivier> Mikesmith: I can see the screen, but the URI is a tad long
# [19:57] <ChrisWilson> sorry, not perfect decsription.
# [19:57] * oedipus asks which widget is it -- i can probably get the uri if you tell me
# [19:57] <MikeSmith> aaronlev - can you paste in the URL for the demo please
# [19:57] <oedipus> which widget is it -- i can probably get the uri if you tell me
# [19:58] <karl> http://test.cita.uiuc.edu/aria/tabpanel/view_xhtml.php
# [19:58] <oedipus> thanks
# [19:58] <ChrisWilson> the idea is to capture the semantic roles of components; there may be multiple different components that act as a "button"
# [19:58] <MichaelC> Most of this demo comes from http://test.cita.uiuc.edu/aria/
# [19:58] * Lachy gets a blank page at that URI
# [19:58] <aaronlev> http://archive.dojotoolkit.org/nightly/dojotoolkit/dijit/tests/test_Tree.html
# [19:58] <MikeSmith> [mike is now doing Dijit Tree Test demo]
# [19:58] <dglazkov> t.v. raman once mentioned using mobile gmail as the accessible (and quality) equivalent to the full-blown gmail
# [19:59] <anne> ChrisWilson, the idea is that the author implements the accessibility on top of a widget he already created
# [19:59] <dglazkov> perhaps that's the solution
# [19:59] * anne considers that to be a low-level API
# [19:59] <MikeSmith> mike: If you use Dojo toolkit now, a lot of [this] is already built into the library.
# [19:59] <dglazkov> instead of taking a complex Web app and attaching AT hooks to it
# [20:00] <MikeSmith> aaronlev : Mike is using the standard keys for a tree view
# [20:00] <dglazkov> build your app with simple blocks, available in HTML
# [20:00] <dglazkov> and use JS to enhance the UX
# [20:00] <gsnedders> if I create a slider in JS, is there any way it could behave identically to a native one on OS X using ARIA?
# [20:00] <MikeSmith> mike: just as if I were in Windows Explorer ... just like on a desktop
# [20:00] <ChrisWilson> anne - umm, sort of. the idea is that the author describes the semantic role of their components, so that accessibility tools can make use of it
# [20:00] * Joins: tlr (roessler@128.30.52.30)
# [20:00] <oedipus> the dijit tree test works on my FF3 install (last release) with JAWS 8.0.2173
# [20:00] <dglazkov> while providing the opportunity to turn off the enhancement
# [20:00] <MikeSmith> olivier : Is there a specific intonation for indicating [this metadata]
# [20:01] <anne> ChrisWilson, is it used for anything else?
# [20:01] <gsnedders> (even if we ignore the visible part of the UI for now)
# [20:01] <ChrisWilson> anne, the semantic role?
# [20:01] * Quits: lm (W3CIRC@63.119.45.147) (Quit: The computer fell asleep)
# [20:01] <anne> dglazkov, that's the idea of CSS + XBL basically, if I understand you correctly (but that's more a long term solution :-(
# [20:02] * Joins: kingryan (rking3@67.164.15.57)
# [20:02] <MikeSmith> tex: wouldn't you want to say, give me the list of all elements at this level? ...
# [20:03] <dglazkov> yes.. I guess I just don't like the ARIA proposal, because it's ultimately a dead-end.
# [20:03] <MikeSmith> ... why not just map this to a completely different model?
# [20:03] <oedipus> dglazkov: why do you say it is a dead-end?
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# [20:04] <dglazkov> well, oedipus, I may be to harsh in this characterization
# [20:04] <MikeSmith> aaronlev : there probably is a more efficient model from presenting the data for this context ... but it would be something completely foreign to the average desktop user
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# [20:04] <MikeSmith> aaronlev : JS widgets will always be a reality ...
# [20:04] <dglazkov> but I think that we shouldn't be taking complex UIs and making them accessible
# [20:04] <Lachy> because it's way too complex for average authors to even think about using and you're relying on the distribution and use of pre-written toolkits for this to be even remotely successful
# [20:04] * Parts: mjs (mjs@63.119.44.165)
# [20:04] * Joins: mjs (mjs@63.119.44.165)
# [20:04] <mjs> it's a dead end only if all control types covered by AX apis end up available in HTML, and we get enough power to fully customize look and feel of all widgets
# [20:05] <MikeSmith> aaronlev : sometimes the best UI is just one that people [already] know
# [20:05] <oedipus> ARIA is the first step and suffices for generalized markup languages, but the intermediary where specialized knowledge domain markup is used -- consult: http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/Accessibility/Handlers
# [20:05] <anne> mjs, yeah, CSS is the problem...
# [20:05] * anne looks at Bert
# [20:05] <gsnedders> Lachy: most authors just use text/links, though, in fairness
# [20:05] <mjs> anne: I dunno if it's just CSS - HTML doesn't have built-in support for many OS-standard widget types, even in the current HTML5 draft
# [20:05] <jgraham_> Lachy: you rely on prewritten toolkits in desktop apps too; to be fair
# [20:05] <oedipus> mjg, by AX do you mean accessibility (a11y)?
# [20:06] <mjs> oedipus, yes, AX is the abbreviation used by the Mac OS X accessibility APIs
# [20:06] <MikeSmith> Present+ KevinLawver
# [20:06] <oedipus> thanks, i didn't know
# [20:06] <MikeSmith> kevin: Think of something like CoverTunes
# [20:07] <MikeSmith> Hixie : people are still making up their own widgets
# [20:07] <MikeSmith> q?
# [20:07] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:07] <oedipus> mjs: the last time i used a mac, i could still see... it's hard to get agencies for the blind to train on anything other than windows
# [20:07] <hsivonen> s/CoverTunes/CoverFlow/
# [20:07] <mjs> CoverFlow is just a list view with a bonus magical display
# [20:08] <mjs> oedipus, that's too bad - VoiceOver is supposedly pretty good
# [20:08] * karl suggests that if people on IRC wants to ask questions that they record it on IRC under the form of q+ to ask about blahblah
# [20:08] <MikeSmith> [one more demo from mike now]
# [20:08] <aaronlev> http://www.mozilla.org/access/dhtml/spreadsheet
# [20:08] * oedipus mjs, that's what i hear from those who do have a mac
# [20:08] <Lachy> I used VoiceOver briefly to test it out, and it was remarkebly simple even for me
# [20:09] * Quits: Markus (winterwolf@63.119.44.149) (Ping timeout)
# [20:09] <MikeSmith> [mike is showing a demo of navigating a table]
# [20:09] <MikeSmith> mike: I hate navigating spreadsheets
# [20:09] * oedipus +1 to that!
# [20:09] <MikeSmith> ... the last thing I want to do is go navigating cell-by-cell through a spreadsheet
# [20:09] <MikeSmith> [mike moving through column headers]
# [20:09] <MichaelC> q+ to say ARIA provides the semantics to allow Assistive Technology (AT) to customize presentation - AT could compete on how they optimize the presentation of particular widgets based on these semantics, but we can't expect authors to provide multiple parallel versions
# [20:09] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
# [20:10] * oedipus thanks Mike(tm) Smith for the DVS
# [20:10] <MikeSmith> [mike showing how to edit contents of cells]
# [20:10] <mjs> q+ to say that auditory reflection of the visual UI has a strong advantage - enabling collaboration between sighted and blind users
# [20:10] * Zakim sees MichaelC, mjs on the speaker queue
# [20:11] <MikeSmith> [mike hitting Ctrl+Alt to pull up menus]
# [20:11] <karl> q?
# [20:11] * Zakim sees MichaelC, mjs on the speaker queue
# [20:11] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - are the table semantics from HTML only or with ARIA markup?
# [20:12] <MikeSmith> aaronlev - some ARIA to say that the row headers are read-only
# [20:12] <oedipus> q+ to say that auditory reflection of the visual UI is also often necessary in order to get accurate technical assistance
# [20:12] * Zakim sees MichaelC, mjs, oedipus on the speaker queue
# [20:12] <MikeSmith> [demo finished ... applause ... DanC stands and stretches]
# [20:13] <MikeSmith> [next up is demo from Ben]
# [20:13] <karl> oedipus, we are collecting questions
# [20:13] * oedipus ok...
# [20:13] <oedipus> q-
# [20:13] * Zakim sees MichaelC, mjs on the speaker queue
# [20:13] <MikeSmith> Present+ BenMillard
# [20:14] <mjs> q-
# [20:14] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
# [20:14] <MikeSmith> [waiting from Ben to get set up]
# [20:14] <MikeSmith> Present+ SeanMedero
# [20:14] * oedipus wonders if the talk is still entitled "never mind the bullocks..."
# [20:14] <MikeSmith> Present+ PatrickIan
# [20:15] <MikeSmith> Present+ ChrisRowland
# [20:15] <MikeSmith> Present+ SteveFaulkner
# [20:15] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
# [20:15] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [20:15] <MichaelC> q-
# [20:15] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:15] <MichaelC> Regarding customization of presentation: ARIA provides the semantics to allow Assistive Technology (AT) to customize presentation - AT could compete on how they optimize the presentation of particular widgets based on these semantics, but we can't expect authors to provide multiple parallel versions
# [20:15] <olivier> s/PatrickIan/PatrickIon/
# [20:16] * Quits: Pion (3f772c3c@128.30.52.23) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
# [20:16] * Joins: Marcos_ (chatzilla@63.119.45.135)
# [20:16] <MikeSmith> [we got musical accompaniment from DanC on the guitar]
# [20:17] <MikeSmith> [Ben Millard introducing topic of data tables]
# [20:17] * oedipus thinks the presentations should have been delivered a la dylan, with one word per placard and DanC strumming along
# [20:17] <anne> He explains: http://sitesurgeon.co.uk/tables/
# [20:17] <kazuhito> http://sitesurgeon.co.uk/tables/
# [20:18] * Joins: lm (W3CIRC@63.119.45.147)
# [20:18] <MikeSmith> ben: found out there are many tables on the Web that weren't in HTML ... some ASCII tables, some Excel, etc.
# [20:18] * Joins: PIon (3f772c3c@128.30.52.23)
# [20:18] * Quits: Marcos (chatzilla@12.6.206.9) (Ping timeout)
# [20:19] * Marcos_ is now known as Marcos
# [20:19] <MikeSmith> ... found some instances of tables lacking any header rows at all
# [20:19] <ChrisWilson> oedipus, maybe we should make that requirement for all discussion.
# [20:20] <MikeSmith> [Ben is walking us through the "How Authors Indicate Headers" part of page at URL above]
# [20:22] <ChrisWilson> q?
# [20:22] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:22] <MikeSmith> q?
# [20:22] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:22] * anne doesn't think sticking a copy will help
# [20:22] <oedipus> ChrisW: sounds good to me -- should i go down into the basement to mix up the medicine?
# [20:22] * karl is sending the page to www-archive with the link to the URI for last version
# [20:22] <MikeSmith> Present+ Håkon
# [20:23] <MikeSmith> [DanC preparing to do some music]
# [20:23] * anne wonders how that helps given that the page links a lot of subpages
# [20:24] <Hixie> IH: I'm encouraged by these numbers
# [20:25] <Hixie> (they indicate higher quality tables are more common than i expected)
# [20:25] <MikeSmith> [getting ready for demo from Maciej]
# [20:25] * Quits: mjs (mjs@63.119.44.165) (Quit: mjs)
# [20:25] <karl> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Nov/0040
# [20:26] <MikeSmith> [Maciej beginning his demo]
# [20:27] * anne notes that karl just created a lot of broken links
# [20:27] <ChrisWilson> [mjs demoing arbitrary affine transforms thru CSS]
# [20:27] <ChrisWilson> agenda+ song for Hakon [Dan]
# [20:27] * Zakim notes agendum 7 added
# [20:28] * karl likes broken links
# [20:28] <karl> so anne can talk
# [20:28] <MikeSmith> ... showing cross-fading ... menu boxes growing as he mouses overs them ... notes that this can be doing using Javascript but this uses CSS
# [20:28] <MikeSmith> ... has really good fallback behavior
# [20:29] <MikeSmith> ... if you view same content in a browser that doesn't support the animation properties
# [20:29] * Lachy wonders why mjs is presenting new CSS features in an HTML meeting?
# [20:29] <MikeSmith> ... no special hardware being used
# [20:29] <MikeSmith> Lachy : because it's cool, like us
# [20:30] * karl wonders why maciej speaks like his boss "hey wait, there's more!"
# [20:30] * karl :p
# [20:30] * Bert :-) at MikeSmith
# [20:31] <ChrisWilson> karl, I was hearing the Ginsu knife TV ad...
# [20:31] <dglazkov> screenshots!
# [20:31] * Joins: myakura_ (myakura@63.119.44.133)
# [20:31] <karl> might be a cultural thing
# [20:31] * Quits: MarcinHanclik (maha@63.119.45.244) (Connection reset by peer)
# [20:31] <MikeSmith> [maciej is showing the markup source and CSS]
# [20:31] * Joins: mikko_honkala_ (mikko_honk@63.119.45.209)
# [20:31] * Joins: MarcinHanclik (maha@63.119.45.244)
# [20:31] * Quits: mikko_honkala (mikko_honk@63.119.45.209) (Connection reset by peer)
# [20:31] * Joins: Marcos_ (chatzilla@12.6.206.9)
# [20:31] * mikko_honkala_ is now known as mikko_honkala
# [20:31] <MikeSmith> ... -webkit-transition-duration
# [20:31] * Joins: aaronlev_ (chatzilla@63.119.44.88)
# [20:32] <MikeSmith> ... -webkit-transform
# [20:32] <karl> http://webkit.org/blog/130/css-transforms/
# [20:32] * Quits: Marcos (chatzilla@63.119.45.135) (Ping timeout)
# [20:32] * Marcos_ is now known as Marcos
# [20:32] <anne> dglazkov, someone makes a movie, so maybe later
# [20:33] * Lachy wonders if mjs is saying "But wait, there's more" like that guy from the old Demtel commercials, and if he'll be throwing in a set of steak knives?
# [20:33] * ChrisWilson thinks so.
# [20:33] * Quits: myakura (myakura@63.119.44.133) (Ping timeout)
# [20:33] * oedipus thinks so too -- consensus!
# [20:33] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@63.119.44.88) (Ping timeout)
# [20:33] <MikeSmith> maciej: this demo maybe shows a need for extensions to form controls
# [20:33] * aaronlev_ is now known as aaronlev
# [20:33] * karl is missing something :p no tv for the last 6 years
# [20:34] * ChrisWilson thinks that ad is much older than 6 years
# [20:34] <MikeSmith> ... <button type=toggle> or <button type=radio>
# [20:34] * Lachy karl, those commercials haven't been on TV for about 10 years or more
# [20:34] <smedero> I'm on it
# [20:34] * oedipus tells karl to tune into any station in the US after 2am -- he'll see one
# [20:35] * karl lachy, where? :) not in France. I'm sure.
# [20:35] * Lachy search youtube for Demtel Tim Shaw
# [20:35] * karl thanks lachy
# [20:35] * oedipus such as, and, if you call in the next ten minutes, we'll throw in a free [product you are being overcharged for in the first place]
# [20:35] <anne> I think that in that case it doesn't match to radio really well
# [20:35] <anne> Which typically has a single one selected
# [20:35] <MikeSmith> "but wait, there's more" was invented by RonCo
# [20:35] <anne> (no toggling behavior)
# [20:35] * Joins: mjs (mjs@63.119.44.165)
# [20:36] <ChrisWilson> q+ for versioning pitch
# [20:36] <MikeSmith> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronco
# [20:36] * Zakim ChrisWilson, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [20:36] <Hixie> Zakim, agenda?
# [20:36] <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
# [20:36] <Zakim> 2. Which end of W3C is up? Q&A session [from DanC_lap]
# [20:36] <hsivonen> q+ to pitch conformance checking test case discussion
# [20:36] <Zakim> 3. ARIA demo [Al Gilman]
# [20:36] <Zakim> 4. Data Tables [from Ben Millard via DanC_lap]
# [20:36] <Zakim> 5. Demo: HTML+CSS as Flash Killer [from Maciej Stachowiak via DanC_lap]
# [20:36] <Hixie> zakim, close item 2
# [20:36] <Zakim> 6. Unconference pitches [from DanC_lap]
# [20:36] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : you gotta put "q+ to ..."
# [20:36] <Zakim> 7. song for Hakon [from Dan via ChrisWilson]
# [20:36] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
# [20:36] <Zakim> agendum 2, Which end of W3C is up? Q&A session, closed
# [20:36] <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
# [20:36] <Zakim> 3. ARIA demo [Al Gilman]
# [20:36] <Hixie> Zakim, close item 3
# [20:36] <Zakim> agendum 3, ARIA demo [Al Gilman], closed
# [20:36] <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
# [20:36] <ChrisWilson> q+ to give versioning pitch
# [20:36] <Zakim> 4. Data Tables [from Ben Millard via DanC_lap]
# [20:36] * Zakim sees hsivonen, ChrisWilson on the speaker queue
# [20:37] <Hixie> Zakim, close item 4
# [20:37] <Zakim> agendum 4, Data Tables, closed
# [20:37] <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
# [20:37] <Zakim> 5. Demo: HTML+CSS as Flash Killer [from Maciej Stachowiak via DanC_lap]
# [20:37] <Hixie> Zakim, close item 5
# [20:37] <Zakim> agendum 5, Demo: HTML+CSS as Flash Killer, closed
# [20:37] <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
# [20:37] <Zakim> 6. Unconference pitches [from DanC_lap]
# [20:37] <ChrisWilson> MikeSmith, thanks, forgot to use "to" rather than for"
# [20:37] <Hixie> q+ Ben to pitch for more info on tables
# [20:37] * Zakim sees hsivonen, ChrisWilson, Ben on the speaker queue
# [20:37] <jgraham_> q+ for test case organisation
# [20:37] * Zakim jgraham_, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [20:37] * Joins: raman (user@216.239.45.4)
# [20:37] <Hixie> zakim, take up item 6
# [20:37] <Zakim> agendum 6. "Unconference pitches" taken up [from DanC_lap]
# [20:37] <ChrisWilson> Zakim, take up item 6
# [20:37] <Zakim> agendum 6. "Unconference pitches" taken up [from DanC_lap]
# [20:37] <Hixie> Zakim, time speakers for 2 minutes
# [20:37] <Zakim> I don't understand 'time speakers for 2 minutes', Hixie
# [20:38] <Hixie> Zakim, time speakers at 2 minutes
# [20:38] <Zakim> ok, Hixie
# [20:38] <jgraham_> q+ to give test case organisation
# [20:38] * Zakim sees hsivonen, ChrisWilson, Ben, jgraham_ on the speaker queue
# [20:38] <MikeSmith> Zakim, time speakers at 2 minutes
# [20:38] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith
# [20:39] <Hixie> q+ Hixie to pitch for status thingy
# [20:39] * Zakim sees hsivonen, ChrisWilson, Ben, jgraham_, Hixie on the speaker queue
# [20:39] <Hixie> q+ Hixie to pitch for test thingy
# [20:39] * Zakim sees hsivonen, ChrisWilson, Ben, jgraham_, Hixie on the speaker queue
# [20:39] <olivier> q+ danc to talk about "testing is hard"
# [20:39] * Zakim sees hsivonen, ChrisWilson, Ben, jgraham_, Hixie, danc on the speaker queue
# [20:40] <dbaron> ack hsivonen
# [20:40] <Zakim> hsivonen, you wanted to pitch conformance checking test case discussion
# [20:40] * Zakim sees ChrisWilson, Ben, jgraham_, Hixie, danc on the speaker queue
# [20:40] * Zakim gives 90 second speaker warning to hsivonen
# [20:40] <karl> q+ to ask about explaining systematic testing
# [20:40] * Zakim sees ChrisWilson, Ben, jgraham_, Hixie, danc, karl on the speaker queue
# [20:40] * anne prolly wants to attend several of these topics
# [20:41] * Zakim gives 60 second speaker warning to hsivonen
# [20:41] <olivier> q?
# [20:41] * Zakim sees ChrisWilson, Ben, jgraham_, Hixie, danc, karl on the speaker queue
# [20:41] * Zakim gives 30 second speaker warning to hsivonen
# [20:41] * Zakim gives 15 second speaker warning to hsivonen
# [20:41] <olivier> ack C
# [20:41] <Zakim> ChrisWilson, you wanted to give versioning pitch
# [20:42] <dbaron> ack ChrisWilson
# [20:42] * Zakim sees Ben, jgraham_, Hixie, danc, karl on the speaker queue
# [20:42] * Zakim sees Ben, jgraham_, Hixie, danc, karl on the speaker queue
# [20:42] * Quits: jun (fujisawa_j@63.119.45.120) (Ping timeout)
# [20:42] <karl> q-
# [20:42] * Zakim sees Ben, jgraham_, Hixie, danc on the speaker queue
# [20:42] * Zakim gives 90 second speaker warning to ChrisWilson
# [20:42] <olivier> ack b
# [20:42] <Zakim> Ben, you wanted to pitch for more info on tables
# [20:42] * Zakim sees jgraham_, Hixie, danc on the speaker queue
# [20:43] * Zakim gives 90 second speaker warning to Ben
# [20:43] * Joins: howcome (howcome@63.119.44.89)
# [20:43] <olivier> ack jg
# [20:43] <Zakim> jgraham_, you wanted to give test case organisation
# [20:43] * Zakim sees Hixie, danc on the speaker queue
# [20:43] * Quits: hober (ted@68.107.112.172) (Ping timeout)
# [20:43] * Parts: mjs (mjs@63.119.44.165)
# [20:43] <anne> Henri wants to talk about systematic validator testing
# [20:43] * Joins: mjs (mjs@63.119.44.165)
# [20:43] <mjs> q+ to pitch for offline support
# [20:43] * Zakim sees Hixie, danc, mjs on the speaker queue
# [20:43] <anne> Chris wants to talk about versioning, backwards compat, etc.
# [20:44] <mjs> q+ to pitch for media elements
# [20:44] * Zakim sees Hixie, danc, mjs on the speaker queue
# [20:44] * Zakim gives 90 second speaker warning to jgraham_
# [20:44] <MikeSmith> jgraham_ points out that we have accumulated a small pile of disorganized test cases ...
# [20:44] <anne> Ben wants to talk about data tables (header association, etc.)
# [20:44] * Zakim gives 60 second speaker warning to jgraham_
# [20:44] <karl> q+ to pitch for HTML 5 for author
# [20:44] * Zakim sees Hixie, danc, mjs, karl on the speaker queue
# [20:44] <MikeSmith> ... what I want is to have a discussion about what test cases we need, how to best organizes the ones we already got
# [20:44] <anne> James wants to talk about organizing existing testcases, licensing tests, etc.
# [20:44] <olivier> ack H
# [20:44] <Zakim> Hixie, you wanted to pitch for status thingy and to pitch for test thingy
# [20:44] * Zakim sees danc, mjs, karl on the speaker queue
# [20:45] <MikeSmith> Hixie : spec has various sections with varying levels of stability ...
# [20:45] <anne> Ian wants to talk about stability annotation within the specification (status thingy)
# [20:45] * Zakim gives 90 second speaker warning to Hixie
# [20:45] <olivier> ack H
# [20:45] * Zakim sees danc, mjs, karl on the speaker queue
# [20:45] <MikeSmith> ... would like to have a way to annotate stability of different parts of spec
# [20:45] <anne> Ian wants to teach people to write tests
# [20:45] * Zakim gives 90 second speaker warning to H
# [20:46] <MikeSmith> Hixie : tutorial session on how to write test cases
# [20:46] <olivier> agenda+ writing tests [hixie]
# [20:46] * Zakim notes agendum 8 added
# [20:46] <olivier> q?
# [20:46] * Zakim sees danc, mjs, karl on the speaker queue
# [20:46] * Zakim gives 60 second speaker warning to H
# [20:46] <ChrisWilson> zakim, agenda?
# [20:46] <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
# [20:46] <Zakim> 6. Unconference pitches [from DanC_lap]
# [20:46] <Zakim> 7. song for Hakon [from Dan via ChrisWilson]
# [20:46] <Zakim> 8. writing tests [from hixie via olivier]
# [20:46] <olivier> agenda+ data tables
# [20:46] * Zakim notes agendum 9 added
# [20:46] <MikeSmith> Hixie : You will write test cases and I will tell you what you are doing wrong [laughs]
# [20:46] <MikeSmith> mjs : session or sweatshop?
# [20:46] <olivier> agenda+ systematic validator testing
# [20:46] * Zakim notes agendum 10 added
# [20:46] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@80.143.152.66)
# [20:46] * Zakim gives 30 second speaker warning to H
# [20:47] <ChrisWilson> zakim, agenda?
# [20:47] <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
# [20:47] <Zakim> 6. Unconference pitches [from DanC_lap]
# [20:47] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft niutes
# [20:47] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'please draft niutes', MikeSmith. Try /msg RRSAgent help
# [20:47] <Zakim> 7. song for Hakon [from Dan via ChrisWilson]
# [20:47] <Zakim> 8. writing tests [from hixie via olivier]
# [20:47] <Zakim> 9. data tables [from olivier]
# [20:47] <olivier> agenda+ organizing existing testcases
# [20:47] <Zakim> 10. systematic validator testing [from olivier]
# [20:47] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
# [20:47] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [20:47] * Zakim notes agendum 11 added
# [20:47] * Zakim gives 15 second speaker warning to H
# [20:47] <Hixie> agenda+ writing the spec status stuff [Hixie]
# [20:47] * Zakim notes agendum 12 added
# [20:47] <Hixie> agenda?
# [20:47] * Zakim sees 7 items remaining on the agenda:
# [20:47] * Zakim 6. Unconference pitches [from DanC_lap]
# [20:47] * Zakim 7. song for Hakon [from Dan via ChrisWilson]
# [20:47] <MikeSmith> I like the word niutes
# [20:47] <olivier> agenda+ versioning
# [20:47] * Zakim 8. writing tests [from hixie via olivier]
# [20:47] * Zakim 9. data tables [from olivier]
# [20:47] * Zakim 10. systematic validator testing [from olivier]
# [20:47] * Zakim 11. organizing existing testcases [from olivier]
# [20:47] * Zakim 12. writing the spec status stuff [from Hixie]
# [20:47] * Zakim notes agendum 13 added
# [20:47] * Zakim chimes: speaking time is up, H
# [20:47] * tlr is now known as tlr_
# [20:47] <ChrisWilson> agenda+ discussion of backward/forward compatibility, versioning and doctype
# [20:47] * Zakim notes agendum 14 added
# [20:47] <olivier> agenda+ organizing existing testcases [jgraham]
# [20:47] * Zakim notes agendum 15 added
# [20:47] <olivier> agenda+ versioning [chriswilson]
# [20:47] * Zakim notes agendum 16 added
# [20:47] * Joins: Marcos_ (chatzilla@63.119.45.135)
# [20:48] <olivier> agenda+ systematic validator testing [henri]
# [20:48] * Zakim notes agendum 17 added
# [20:48] <olivier> ack d
# [20:48] <Zakim> danc, you wanted to talk about "testing is hard"
# [20:48] * Zakim sees mjs, karl on the speaker queue
# [20:48] <olivier> agenda?
# [20:48] * Zakim sees 12 items remaining on the agenda:
# [20:48] * Zakim 6. Unconference pitches [from DanC_lap]
# [20:48] * Zakim 7. song for Hakon [from Dan via ChrisWilson]
# [20:48] * Zakim 8. writing tests [from hixie via olivier]
# [20:48] * Zakim 9. data tables [from olivier]
# [20:48] * Zakim 10. systematic validator testing [from olivier]
# [20:48] <olivier> agenda+ story telling and test cases [danc]
# [20:48] * Zakim 11. organizing existing testcases [from olivier]
# [20:48] * Zakim 12. writing the spec status stuff [from Hixie]
# [20:48] * Zakim 13. versioning [from olivier]
# [20:48] <MikeSmith> DanC: Storytelling and test cases ...
# [20:48] * Zakim 14. discussion of backward/forward compatibility, versioning and doctype [from ChrisWilson]
# [20:48] * Zakim 15. organizing existing testcases [from jgraham via olivier]
# [20:48] * Zakim 16. versioning [from chriswilson via olivier]
# [20:48] * Zakim 17. systematic validator testing [from henri via olivier]
# [20:48] * Zakim notes agendum 18 added
# [20:48] * Zakim gives 90 second speaker warning to danc
# [20:48] <olivier> zakim, drop agendum 10
# [20:48] <Zakim> agendum 10, systematic validator testing, dropped
# [20:48] <olivier> zakim, drop agendum 11
# [20:48] <Zakim> agendum 11, organizing existing testcases, dropped
# [20:49] * tlr_ is now known as tlr
# [20:49] * Zakim gives 60 second speaker warning to danc
# [20:49] <MikeSmith> ... karl has some great slides on this
# [20:49] <ChrisWilson> q?
# [20:49] * Zakim sees mjs, karl on the speaker queue
# [20:49] <ChrisWilson> ack mjs
# [20:49] <Zakim> mjs, you wanted to pitch for offline support and to pitch for media elements
# [20:49] <olivier> agenda 9 = data tables [ben]
# [20:49] * Zakim sees karl on the speaker queue
# [20:49] * Zakim notes agendum 9 replaced
# [20:49] <MikeSmith> ack mjs
# [20:49] * Zakim sees karl on the speaker queue
# [20:49] <olivier> agenda?
# [20:49] * Zakim sees 11 items remaining on the agenda:
# [20:49] * Zakim 6. Unconference pitches [from DanC_lap]
# [20:49] * Zakim 7. song for Hakon [from Dan via ChrisWilson]
# [20:49] <Hixie> agenda+ offline support [mjs]
# [20:49] * Zakim 8. writing tests [from hixie via olivier]
# [20:49] * Zakim 9. data tables [ben]
# [20:49] * Zakim 12. writing the spec status stuff [from Hixie]
# [20:49] * Zakim 13. versioning [from olivier]
# [20:49] * Zakim 14. discussion of backward/forward compatibility, versioning and doctype [from ChrisWilson]
# [20:49] <Hixie> agenda+ media elements [mjs]
# [20:49] * Zakim 15. organizing existing testcases [from jgraham via olivier]
# [20:49] * Zakim 16. versioning [from chriswilson via olivier]
# [20:49] * Zakim 17. systematic validator testing [from henri via olivier]
# [20:49] * Zakim 18. story telling and test cases [from danc via olivier]
# [20:49] * Zakim notes agendum 19 added
# [20:50] * Zakim notes agendum 20 added
# [20:50] <olivier> agenda 13 = versioning [chrisW]
# [20:50] * Zakim notes agendum 13 replaced
# [20:50] * Zakim gives 90 second speaker warning to mjs
# [20:50] * Quits: Marcos (chatzilla@12.6.206.9) (Ping timeout)
# [20:50] * Marcos_ is now known as Marcos
# [20:50] <MikeSmith> mjs: offline support ... we have done some implementation work, I know Mozilla has also
# [20:50] * Zakim gives 60 second speaker warning to mjs
# [20:50] <ChrisWilson> q?
# [20:50] * Zakim sees karl on the speaker queue
# [20:50] <ChrisWilson> ACK KARL
# [20:50] <Zakim> karl, you wanted to pitch for HTML 5 for author
# [20:50] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:50] <olivier> zakim, drom agendum 13
# [20:50] <Zakim> I don't understand 'drom agendum 13', olivier
# [20:50] <olivier> zakim, drop agendum 13
# [20:50] <Zakim> agendum 13, versioning [chrisW], dropped
# [20:50] <Hixie> agenda+ HTML 5 for authors [karl]
# [20:50] * Zakim notes agendum 21 added
# [20:51] * olivier made a mess with his agenda+ earlier, sorry
# [20:51] * Joins: Markus (winterwolf@63.119.44.209)
# [20:51] * Zakim gives 90 second speaker warning to karl
# [20:51] * Hixie keeps forgetting he's projecting
# [20:51] * Zakim gives 60 second speaker warning to karl
# [20:51] <olivier> q?
# [20:51] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:51] <ChrisWilson> q?
# [20:51] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:51] <Hixie> agenda?
# [20:51] * Zakim sees 13 items remaining on the agenda:
# [20:51] * Zakim 6. Unconference pitches [from DanC_lap]
# [20:51] * Zakim 7. song for Hakon [from Dan via ChrisWilson]
# [20:51] <MikeSmith> karl : with HTML5 we have a big clash with [previous expections] of the community toward W3C specs ...
# [20:52] * Zakim 8. writing tests [from hixie via olivier]
# [20:52] * Zakim 9. data tables [ben]
# [20:52] * Zakim 12. writing the spec status stuff [from Hixie]
# [20:52] * Zakim 14. discussion of backward/forward compatibility, versioning and doctype [from ChrisWilson]
# [20:52] * Zakim 15. organizing existing testcases [from jgraham via olivier]
# [20:52] * Zakim 16. versioning [from chriswilson via olivier]
# [20:52] * Zakim 17. systematic validator testing [from henri via olivier]
# [20:52] * Zakim 18. story telling and test cases [from danc via olivier]
# [20:52] * Zakim 19. offline support [from mjs via Hixie]
# [20:52] <MikeSmith> ... [need to consider how to address the expectations of the authoring community]
# [20:52] * Zakim 20. media elements [from mjs via Hixie]
# [20:52] * Zakim 21. HTML 5 for authors [from karl via Hixie]
# [20:52] * Zakim gives 30 second speaker warning to karl
# [20:52] * Zakim gives 15 second speaker warning to karl
# [20:52] * anne has the same problem as Dan
# [20:52] * Zakim chimes: speaking time is up, karl
# [20:52] <mauro> q?
# [20:52] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:53] <Hixie> there are 12 items
# [20:53] <Hixie> at the moment
# [20:54] <MikeSmith> song for Håkon: 6ish people raise hands
# [20:54] * Zakim MikeSmith, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [20:54] <MikeSmith> song for Håkon, 6ish people raise hands
# [20:54] * Zakim MikeSmith, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [20:54] <MikeSmith> wtf
# [20:54] <MikeSmith> . song for Håkon, 6ish people raise hands
# [20:54] * Zakim MikeSmith, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [20:54] * MikeSmith notes he ain't keeping count of show of hands
# [20:54] * Zakim MikeSmith, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
# [20:54] <tlr> http://www.w3.org/2007/xmlsec/Drafts/xmldsig-core/explain.html
# [20:55] <tlr> whooopos
# [20:55] <tlr> s/http://www.w3.org/2007/xmlsec/Drafts/xmldsig-core/explain.html//
# [20:56] <smedero> mjs: do you have a public URL for your CSS animation demo? (I have the URL for the WebKit blog entry on it)
# [20:57] * Joins: chaals (chaals@63.119.44.72)
# [20:58] <MichaelC> q+ to ask that when the sessions are scheduled, the title, time, and location be added to the agenda page
# [20:58] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
# [20:58] <mjs> smedero: I will post it publicly soon
# [20:58] <Hixie> q?
# [20:58] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
# [20:58] <mjs> smedero: I only finished this version right before presenting
# [20:58] <smedero> alright, no rush... just compiling info for the issue. :)
# [20:58] <Hixie> agenda?
# [20:58] * Zakim sees 13 items remaining on the agenda:
# [20:58] * Zakim 6. Unconference pitches [from DanC_lap]
# [20:58] * Zakim 7. song for Hakon [from Dan via ChrisWilson]
# [20:58] * Zakim 8. writing tests [from hixie via olivier]
# [20:58] <mjs> smedero: last version used content that I couldn't redistribute
# [20:58] * Zakim 9. data tables [ben]
# [20:58] * Zakim 12. writing the spec status stuff [from Hixie]
# [20:58] * Zakim 14. discussion of backward/forward compatibility, versioning and doctype [from ChrisWilson]
# [20:58] * Zakim 15. organizing existing testcases [from jgraham via olivier]
# [20:59] * Zakim 16. versioning [from chriswilson via olivier]
# [20:59] * Zakim 17. systematic validator testing [from henri via olivier]
# [20:59] * Zakim 18. story telling and test cases [from danc via olivier]
# [20:59] * Zakim 19. offline support [from mjs via Hixie]
# [20:59] * Zakim 20. media elements [from mjs via Hixie]
# [20:59] * Zakim 21. HTML 5 for authors [from karl via Hixie]
# [20:59] * Joins: molly (mollyholzs@63.116.222.46)
# [20:59] <ChrisWilson> agenda -16
# [20:59] * Zakim notes agendum 16, versioning, dropped
# [21:02] * Quits: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.9/2007102514])
# [21:03] * Quits: smedero (smedero@63.119.44.183) (Quit: smedero)
# [21:04] <MikeSmith> [we are effectively breaking until 4pm ... ]
# [21:04] * MikeSmith notes that coffee and whatever is down on lobby floor
# [21:04] <molly> wondering if it's worth coming over for the remainder of the day or having a little me time and catching up tomorrow. Advice?
# [21:05] * Quits: myakura_ (myakura@63.119.44.133) (Ping timeout)
# [21:05] * Quits: MarcinHanclik (maha@63.119.45.244) (Ping timeout)
# [21:05] * Quits: justin (justin@63.119.45.74) (Quit: Computer goes to sleep!)
# [21:05] * Quits: lm (W3CIRC@63.119.45.147) (Quit: The computer fell asleep)
# [21:06] * Quits: gavin (gavin@99.227.30.12) (Ping timeout)
# [21:06] * Quits: Nick (nickVdB@63.119.45.133) (Ping timeout)
# [21:06] * Joins: hober (ted@68.107.112.172)
# [21:06] * Quits: howcome (howcome@63.119.44.89) (Ping timeout)
# [21:08] <MikeSmith> Present+ ScottVesey
# [21:09] * Joins: smedero (smedero@63.119.44.183)
# [21:09] * Quits: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Leaving)
# [21:09] * Quits: Markus (winterwolf@63.119.44.209) (Ping timeout)
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# [21:11] * Joins: gavin (gavin@99.227.30.12)
# [21:12] <Lachy> MikeSmith, now that the break is on, is there someone who can organise a skypecast? Just need someone with skype and a decent mic to pick up the speakers
# [21:13] <oedipus> if there is my skypename is oedipusnj -- marcos captured the first 2 demos (at least) on his webcam
# [21:14] * Joins: Nick (nickVdB@63.119.45.133)
# [21:14] * Quits: PIon (3f772c3c@128.30.52.23) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
# [21:17] <Lachy> oedipus, are you participating via IRC only?
# [21:17] <oedipus> yes
# [21:18] * oedipus notes that marcos tried to skype me in but it wouldn't work whether he or i initiated the call
# [21:18] <mauro> zakim, pointer?
# [21:18] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, mauro.
# [21:18] <mauro> RRSAgent, pointer?
# [21:18] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-irc#T20-18-22
# [21:20] * Quits: smedero (smedero@63.119.44.183) (Quit: smedero)
# [21:20] <oedipus> the first demo is (temporarily at): http://63.119.45.135/aria.avi - note it takes quite some time to load, but eventually will
# [21:24] * Joins: smedero (smedero@63.119.44.183)
# [21:24] * Joins: justin (justin@63.119.45.74)
# [21:29] * Joins: arun (chatzilla@64.236.139.249)
# [21:34] <Lachy> oedipus, has that server got a slow upload speed? It's not going very fast at all
# [21:34] * Quits: timbl (timbl@63.119.45.160) (Quit: timbl)
# [21:34] * Quits: kingryan (rking3@67.164.15.57) (Quit: kingryan)
# [21:36] * Joins: myakura (myakura@63.119.44.133)
# [21:36] <oedipus> lachy, it took forever and a day, and then suddenly started playing -- for some reason, won't play before the whole thing is buffered, so when it started, i saved it locally and then listened to it
# [21:37] <Lachy> yeah, I'm trying to save it locally
# [21:37] <Lachy> what codec is it using?
# [21:37] * oedipus asks lachy -- if all else fails, i can try skyping you the file
# [21:37] <oedipus> it is an AVI file
# [21:37] <Lachy> Could it be converted to ogg theora or something with a bit better compression?
# [21:38] <Lachy> AVI is just a container format. It could contain almost any codec
# [21:38] <oedipus> i have a codec conversion utility -- i'll "see" what i can do
# [21:38] <Lachy> run it through ffmpeg2theora
# [21:39] <Lachy> sending the file by skype would be much slower, skype isn't good for transferring large files
# [21:39] <molly> still loading over here
# [21:40] <Lachy> 40 to 50 minutes remaining at this speed :-(
# [21:40] * oedipus just offered it as an option because marcos skyped it to me in less than 10 minutes
# [21:41] <Lachy> well, you could try it if you have a decent upload speed. Otherwise, I can get marcos to skype it to me when he gets back to his computer
# [21:41] * Quits: jgraham_ (jgraham@63.119.45.250) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
# [21:41] <Lachy> my skype name is lachlanhunt
# [21:41] <oedipus> thanks, lachy -- let me try to convert it first
# [21:42] <Lachy> you can get ffmpeg2theora here. It's a command line utility for windows. http://v2v.cc/~j/ffmpeg2theora/download.html
# [21:43] * Quits: myakura (myakura@63.119.44.133) (Ping timeout)
# [21:43] * Joins: paullewis (paullewis@82.242.109.217)
# [21:43] <Hixie> agenda+ aria session [no lead yet]
# [21:43] * Zakim notes agendum 22 added
# [21:45] * Quits: Dennis (forty4@63.119.45.205) (Ping timeout)
# [21:46] * Joins: Dennis (forty4@63.119.44.226)
# [21:47] * Joins: kingryan (rking3@67.164.15.57)
# [21:49] <MikeSmith> Present+ NickVanDenBleeken
# [21:49] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [21:49] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [21:49] <anne> Zakim, who is here?
# [21:49] <Zakim> sorry, anne, I don't know what conference this is
# [21:49] <Zakim> On IRC I see kingryan, Dennis, paullewis, arun, justin, smedero, Nick, gavin, MarcinHanclik, hober, molly, chaals, Marcos, Julian, mjs, raman, aaronlev, mikko_honkala, anthony,
# [21:49] <anne> lol
# [21:49] <Zakim> ... tlr, Bert, shepazu, dsinger, karl, tantek, mauro, dbaron, ChrisWilson, Philip, MikeSmith, kazuhito, anne, aroben, Zakim, Lachy, matt, dglazkov, hasather, oedipus, tH, ROBOd,
# [21:50] <Zakim> ... Lionheart, Hixie, heycam, laplink, bogi, gsnedders, Thezilch, jane, krijnh, deltab, Dashiva, jmb, Kuruma, gavin_, beowulf, jgraham, drry, hsivonen, trackbot-ng, Bob_le_Pointu,
# [21:50] <Zakim> ... RRSAgent
# [21:50] <molly> is there any other female involved in this wg discussion?
# [21:50] <oedipus> we don't know whether RRSAgent is male, female or indifferent...
# [21:51] <molly> oedipus I think we can probably agree that the agent is genderless :D
# [21:51] * gsnedders has just been reading a book by Kate Bornstien that predictably goes on about gender being binary
# [21:52] * Joins: robburns (robburns@24.1.195.65)
# [21:52] * anne is being silly
# [21:52] * anne .. well, was, above
# [21:52] <gsnedders> anne… be silly? oh wow.
# [21:52] <smedero> molly, there were two females present in the conference room earlier... I don't enough of these folks to tell you whos who.
# [21:53] * Joins: myakura (myakura@63.119.44.133)
# [21:53] * oedipus wonders if jane is jane, and not tarzan, posing as jane
# [21:53] <MikeSmith> s/TravisFromMicrosoft/TravisLeithead/
# [21:53] <molly> smedero thanks! I am just curious. I'll be back in the room tomorrow
# [21:53] <MikeSmith> s/fromBoeing//
# [21:53] <molly> i'm not bringing it up to call foul or anything, it's just a point of curiosity for me
# [21:53] <smedero> molly, no I understand.
# [21:54] <MikeSmith> s/Mauro/Mauro/Nunez/
# [21:54] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [21:54] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [21:54] <smedero> particularly in light of the A List Apart survey recently...
# [21:54] <jane> oedipus: har :\
# [21:54] <molly> smedero yes! that was an amazing survey. Frightening in some ways
# [21:55] * Quits: robburns (robburns@24.1.195.65) (Ping timeout)
# [21:55] <gsnedders> it had issues for people not in full-time jobs though, IIRC
# [21:55] <MikeSmith> s/LesliefromLosAlamos/LeslieMansell/
# [21:55] <MikeSmith> s/NickFromLosAlamos//
# [21:55] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [21:55] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [21:56] <MikeSmith> Present+ DanielZucker
# [21:56] <dbaron> mjs: "I'm trying to schedule based on facts, not moral imperatives."
# [21:56] * Joins: glazou_soreThroat (daniel@63.119.45.165)
# [21:56] * Quits: chaals (chaals@63.119.44.72) (Client exited)
# [21:56] <MikeSmith> Present+ TonyGrasso
# [21:57] * Joins: chaals (chaals@63.119.44.72)
# [21:57] * Joins: jun (fujisawa_j@63.119.45.120)
# [21:58] <molly> Leslie's here, now I know there's some additional girl power in the room ;)
# [21:58] <MikeSmith> Present+ JustinThorp
# [21:59] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
# [21:59] * Lachy notes that skype is working between me and marcos
# [22:00] * Quits: Nick (nickVdB@63.119.45.133) (Ping timeout)
# [22:00] * Quits: ChrisWilson (CWilso@63.119.44.171) (Ping timeout)
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# [22:00] * Joins: Nick (nickVdB@63.119.45.133)
# [22:01] * oedipus thanks marcos for camcording
# [22:01] <mauro> s/Mauro/MauroNunez/
# [22:02] <Marcos> no probs... next time I'll bring a proper web cam
# [22:02] <mauro> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [22:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-html-wg-minutes.html mauro
# [22:02] <Marcos> If I can, I'm going to put the Aria video on youtube....
# [22:03] <shepazu> Zakim, room for 2?
# [22:03] <Zakim> ok, shepazu; conference Team_(html-wg)21:03Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 60 minutes until 2203Z
# [22:03] <karl> http://quality.mozilla.org/
# [22:03] <shepazu> oops
# [22:03] <MikeSmith> Present+ GregThompson
# [22:04] <shepazu> sorry about that
# [22:05] <MikeSmith> Present+ HennySwan
# [22:05] <MikeSmith> Zakim, room to groove?
# [22:05] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, MikeSmith.
# [22:05] <MikeSmith> Zakim, room to get a freak on?
# [22:05] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, MikeSmith.
# [22:05] <kingryan> Lachy: could I join the skype call? my skype username is ryansking
# [22:05] * mauro smiles at Mike's requests
# [22:06] <Lachy> I'll see if we can set up a skypecast. Hold on.
# [22:07] * Quits: justin (justin@63.119.45.74) (Quit: Computer goes to sleep!)
# [22:09] * Joins: Chris (CWilso@63.119.44.171)
# [22:10] * Chris is now known as ChrisWilson
# [22:10] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@63.119.44.88) (Ping timeout)
# [22:10] <ChrisWilson> [media elements discussion begins]
# [22:11] * Quits: anne (annevk@63.119.45.192) (Ping timeout)
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# [22:11] * Quits: myakura (myakura@63.119.44.133) (Ping timeout)
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# [22:11] * Quits: dsinger (daithesong@63.119.45.128) (Quit: Leaving)
# [22:13] <MikeSmith> Scribenick: MikeSmith
# [22:14] <MikeSmith> mjs : Does anybody have problems with the current parts of the HTML5 spec for audio and video?
# [22:14] <MikeSmith> DanC: yeah, I do. I think we should take it out.
# [22:14] * Quits: howcome (howcome@63.119.44.89) (Ping timeout)
# [22:15] * Joins: jgraham_ (jgraham@63.119.45.250)
# [22:15] <Lachy> skypecast wouldn't work
# [22:16] * Joins: justin (justin@63.119.45.74)
# [22:16] * Lachy oedipus, what's your skype nick again?
# [22:16] <MikeSmith> Håkon: first thing that happens when people turn on the OLPC machine is, they see themselves ...
# [22:16] <MikeSmith> ... because it has a built-in camera ...
# [22:16] <karl> http://www.laptopgiving.org/
# [22:17] * Joins: aaronlev_ (chatzilla@63.119.44.88)
# [22:17] <MikeSmith> ... also Tom-Tom jamming application ...
# [22:17] * aaronlev_ is now known as aaronlev
# [22:17] <karl> http://laptopfoundation.org/
# [22:17] <MikeSmith> [Håkon demo'ing video stuff in special Opera build]
# [22:17] * oedipus lachy oedipusnj
# [22:18] <jgraham_> aria people are squatting in rthe empty xsl-fo room
# [22:19] * Joins: myakura (myakura@63.119.44.133)
# [22:19] <MikeSmith> [Håkon attempting to show Green-Winged Macaw page from Wikipedia, but having problems]
# [22:21] * Joins: KevinLawver (kplawver@63.119.45.212)
# [22:22] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : As I understand it, the goal is to make it easier and more declarative to support videos
# [22:22] <karl> http://livedocs.adobe.com/contribute/4/using_admin_en/wwhelp/wwhimpl/common/html/wwhelp.htm?context=Using_and_Administering_Contribute&file=00000214.htm
# [22:22] <MikeSmith> mjs : there's not reason why it needs to be more complicated than <img> for the simple case
# [22:23] <MikeSmith> DanC: I think the Design Principles document can help grow a set of requirements
# [22:23] * Joins: anne (annevk@63.119.45.192)
# [22:23] <MikeSmith> DaveSinger: The justification might help us figure out when we have completed the design.
# [22:24] <Hixie> The agenda is here: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/F2F
# [22:24] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : I think some of the goals that mjs has brought up require the Kodak discussion.
# [22:24] * Hixie changes topic to 'HTML WG meeting - http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/F2F'
# [22:24] <Bert> agenda+ why are there IMG, VIDEO, EMBED and AUDIO but no TEXT? (Text is one of the most often asked extension for CSS, but it really belongs in HTML, not CSS.)
# [22:24] * Zakim notes agendum 23 added
# [22:25] * Joins: Yves (ylafon@128.30.52.30)
# [22:25] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
# [22:25] <Hixie> Bert: there is -- <img>, <video>, <embed>, <audio>, <iframe>
# [22:25] <mjs> MikeSmith: "codec", not "kodak"
# [22:25] <MikeSmith> ah
# [22:25] <anne> I don't think the ARIA session is being minuted
# [22:26] <smedero> Video codec starter issue: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/7
# [22:26] <smedero> (starting to collect emails and such)
# [22:26] <oedipus> there are people in the pf channel, but no notes
# [22:26] <MikeSmith> s/Kodak/codec/
# [22:26] * MikeSmith was wondering wtf Kodak had to do with anything ...
# [22:27] * karl Mikesmith with SVG
# [22:27] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : [re discussion with Dave Singer], you just introduced some "risk of editorship"
# [22:28] * Quits: glazou_soreThroat (daniel@63.119.45.165) (Connection reset by peer)
# [22:28] * karl has difficulties to find a good answer for people who say: If video
# [22:29] * Quits: dglazkov (dglazkov@65.81.81.30) (Quit: dglazkov)
# [22:29] * kingryan is listening via skype now
# [22:29] * Joins: glazou_soreThroat (daniel@63.119.45.165)
# [22:29] * karl .... why not <todo> or <shoppinglist>
# [22:30] <dsinger_> we need video to get consistent attributes, dom, accessibility; to expose its time-based behavior; to make it a 1st-class citizen that is properly integrated; ...
# [22:30] * Lachy if anyone else wants to join the skype conf call, let me know your skype nick.
# [22:30] <MikeSmith> Present+ JonFerraiolo
# [22:31] * oedipus still has no audio, so will drop to make room for others
# [22:32] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : there is an open question about how do we do synchronization
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# [22:35] <MikeSmith> Present+ DanielGlazman
# [22:36] * glazou was already on IRC before
# [22:36] <MikeSmith> [mjs prepares to do demo of video in Webkit]
# [22:37] <MikeSmith> mjs : this in in the Webkit nightlies
# [22:37] <MikeSmith> [demoing example of opacity/compositing]
# [22:38] <MikeSmith> mjs : we will be adding the controls attribute soon ...
# [22:39] * Joins: Marcos_ (chatzilla@12.6.206.9)
# [22:39] <MikeSmith> ... and fully supporting soon the complete HTML5 spec for <video>
# [22:39] <myakura> WebKit Nightlies http://nightly.webkit.org/
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# [22:42] <karl> http://www.w3.org/TR/SMIL3/smil-extended-media-object.html#edef-video
# [22:43] <karl> <par>
# [22:43] <karl> <video id="carvideo" src="car.rm" region="videoregion" title="Car video"
# [22:43] <karl> alt="Illustration of relativistic time dilation and length
# [22:43] <karl> contraction."
# [22:43] <karl> longdesc="carvideodesc.html" readIndex="3"/>
# [22:43] <karl> <audio id="caraudio" src="caraudio.rm" region="videoregion"
# [22:43] <karl> title="Car presentation voiceover" begin="bar.begin"/>
# [22:43] <karl> <animation id="cardiagram" src="car.svg" region="animregion"
# [22:43] <karl> title="Diagram of the car" readIndex="2"/>
# [22:43] <karl> <img id="scvad" src="scv.png" region="videoregion"
# [22:43] <karl> title="Advertisement for Sugar Coated Vegetables"
# [22:43] <karl> readIndex="1"/>
# [22:43] <karl> </par>
# [22:43] <smedero> doh. dupe issues. :-/
# [22:44] <MikeSmith> smedero - no problem ... I'll just delete the one I opened
# [22:44] <smedero> Ahh, thanks
# [22:46] * Bert did a quick HTML and SMIL comparison: video=video, audio=audio, iframe=text, ??=textstream, ??=animation, img=img, embed=??
# [22:46] <smedero> useful page: http://people.opera.com/howcome/2007/video/
# [22:46] <smedero> Ahh, thanks Bert - I'm just about to open up an issue on that
# [22:46] <karl> where did you put it Bert?
# [22:46] <anne> object=textstream, object=animation ?
# [22:47] <Bert> Nowhere, Karl, except here.
# [22:47] <smedero> Karl, I'm creating an issue
# [22:47] <smedero> for <video> and SMIL issues
# [22:47] <Bert> object=ref
# [22:47] <karl> Bert I think that would be better to have a full comparison not only names but attributes/features too
# [22:48] * Quits: howcome (howcome@63.119.44.89) (Ping timeout)
# [22:48] <MikeSmith> Tex: we need a statement of scope
# [22:48] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : I would like to see us define how autoplay works, and how synchronization works
# [22:49] <dsinger_> I think how autoplay works is defined
# [22:49] <MikeSmith> Hixie : current spec is that each <video> element is independent
# [22:49] <MikeSmith> Håkon: We should err on the side of simplicity
# [22:50] <MikeSmith> ... what's current in there is a little too much more than most people would need
# [22:50] <MikeSmith> s/current in there/currently in there/
# [22:51] <smedero> ChrisWilson: should there be a separate issue for <video>'s autoplay implementation?
# [22:52] * Quits: kazuhito (kazuhito@63.119.45.157) (Quit: Computer goes to sleep!)
# [22:52] <Lachy> autoplay is well defined here http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#loading
# [22:53] <MikeSmith> RESOLUTION: Add AudioVideoScope page to the Wiki
# [22:53] <karl> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/AudioVideoScope
# [22:54] <karl> Lachy, you have the wrong uri :p - http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#loading
# [22:54] <MikeSmith> mjs : YouTube, MySpace, Apple's QuickTime trailer site, Wikipedia are good sites for video examples
# [22:55] <Lachy> karl, no I don't. The specs are identical
# [22:55] <Hixie> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/AudioVideoScope
# [22:55] <Hixie> feel free to stick stuff on there
# [22:56] <MikeSmith> mjs : If every major browser could support one common video codec, then authors could post just one video format on their site (instead of multiple ones).
# [22:56] <MikeSmith> ... Ogg, patent risk is more unknown
# [22:57] * Quits: jun (fujisawa_j@63.119.45.120) (Ping timeout)
# [22:57] * Quits: anne (annevk@63.119.45.192) (Ping timeout)
# [22:57] * Lachy just wishes some big company would take the risk with Ogg. The world needs a good, well supported, patent free format!
# [22:57] <MikeSmith> ... MPEG4, open standard, technically pretty good, used by Apple, haven't been sued yet, but patented and the patent licenses are not cheap ...
# [22:57] <MikeSmith> ... many mobile devices have built-in support for H264 (MPEG4) ...
# [22:58] <MikeSmith> ... third candidate is Windows Media ...
# [22:58] <Lachy> Dirac will be another good alternative when it's finished
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# [22:58] <Lachy> it's being developed by the BBC, and since they're big, they're taking the risk of being sued for it
# [22:58] <MikeSmith> dsinger_ : H263 ... which is also widely supported in mobiles
# [22:59] <Lachy> or animated GIF! ;-P
# [22:59] <MikeSmith> mjs : tradeoff of IP issues vs. codec quality
# [22:59] <karl> http://dirac.sourceforge.net/
# [22:59] * Quits: jgraham_ (jgraham@63.119.45.250) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
# [22:59] <Philip> Lachy, animated PNG would allow higher quality videos :-)
# [23:00] * Quits: KevinLawver (kplawver@63.119.45.212) (Quit: KevinLawver)
# [23:00] <Lachy> but we know GIF patents have expired already :-)
# [23:00] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson : Our legal people do not believe that Ogg Theora has much of any chance of being free from patent issues.
# [23:01] <karl> http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/dirac/implementations.shtml
# [23:02] <karl> http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/dirac/index.shtml
# [23:02] * Quits: justin (justin@63.119.45.74) (Quit: Computer goes to sleep!)
# [23:02] <karl> http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/dirac/licensing.shtml
# [23:03] * Joins: anne (annevk@63.119.45.192)
# [23:04] <MikeSmith> ACTION: Dave Singer to draft a summary of this discussion for the mailing list.
# [23:04] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [23:04] <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Dave
# [23:04] * RRSAgent records action 17
# [23:04] * Quits: howcome (howcome@63.119.44.89) (Ping timeout)
# [23:05] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, reload
# [23:05] <trackbot-ng> Reloading Tracker config
# [23:05] * trackbot-ng is loading HTML Issue Tracking data...
# [23:05] * trackbot-ng found 12 users
# [23:05] <trackbot-ng> Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/
# [23:05] * karl thinks the discussions are much more civil face to face than in the html wg mailing list and irc. And I find that quite cool.
# [23:06] <MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, status
# [23:06] * trackbot-ng knows about the following 12 users: Anne, Chris, Shawn, Dan, David, Michael(tm), Maciej, James, Gregory, David, Ian, Julian
# [23:06] <MikeSmith> ACTION: David to draft a summary of this discussion for the mailing list.
# [23:06] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [23:06] <trackbot-ng> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - David
# [23:06] <trackbot-ng> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. dsinger2, hyatt)
# [23:06] * RRSAgent records action 18
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# [23:06] <MikeSmith> ACTION: dsinger2 to draft a summary of this discussion for the mailing list.
# [23:06] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [23:06] * RRSAgent records action 19
# [23:06] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-4 - Draft a summary of this discussion for the mailing list. [on David Singer - due 2007-11-15].
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# [23:10] <kingryan> spec section reference: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#browser
# [23:11] <kingryan> right?
# [23:13] * Quits: gavin (gavin@99.227.30.12) (Ping timeout)
# [23:13] <smedero> kingryan, yes. or http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-browser.html#browser for folks who loathe the single page version.
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# [23:16] * oedipus notes that the single page version tends to cause some browsers...
# [23:16] * oedipus continues -- to crash
# [23:17] <Lachy> simple video test cases: http://lachy.id.au/dev/markup/tests/html5/video/001
# [23:17] * Quits: justin (justin@63.119.45.74) (Quit: Computer goes to sleep!)
# [23:17] <Lachy> if someone wants to write some more video test cases, that would be aweome. You can use the videos here http://lachy.id.au/dev/markup/tests/html5/support/
# [23:17] <smedero> Lachy: the FAIL videos you produced are indirectly hilarious.
# [23:17] <Lachy> how so?
# [23:17] <smedero> in the playing off internet lingo sense
# [23:18] * Quits: chaals (chaals@63.119.44.72) (Client exited)
# [23:18] * Lachy doesn't get it
# [23:18] <oedipus> lachy: what UA are you using? the only thing i get is "You should see a video below" and then "FAIL"
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# [23:18] <Lachy> oedipus, you need a recent build of Opera with Video support
# [23:18] <oedipus> ok
# [23:18] <Lachy> there was one released on labs.opera.com yesterday
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# [23:19] <Lachy> http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/a-call-for-video-on-the-web-opera-vid/
# [23:21] <Philip> (Ooh, 3d canvas too?)
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# [23:22] * Lachy is looking for some examples of Hixie's old, really badly written test cases :-)
# [23:22] <Lachy> here's one http://hixie.ch/tests/html40/test41-1b.html - note that pass condition contains red!
# [23:23] <ChrisWilson> video] http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/127
# [23:24] <kingryan> +1 to mercurial
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# [23:25] <gsnedders> +1 to Mercurial
# [23:25] <kingryan> it separates the acts of creating a changeset and publishing a changeset
# [23:25] * Quits: aroben (aroben@17.203.12.72) (Ping timeout)
# [23:26] <kingryan> every working copy is a a full repository
# [23:26] <gsnedders> (I'd say any distributed SCM over any centralised one, though I have a preference for Mercurial)
# [23:27] <Philip> (Opera says: cannot find d3d9.dll :-( )
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# [23:29] <kingryan> welcome tantek to the skype conf call
# [23:31] <tantek> greetings. who on the call is actually at the meeting? i suggest everyone else on the call click the mute (mic with slash) button.
# [23:31] * Lachy changes topic to 'HTML WG meeting - http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/F2F (Ping Lachy if you want to join the skype conf call)'
# [23:31] <Lachy> tantek, Marcos is at the meeting
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# [23:36] <anne> http://tc.labs.opera.com/apis/focus/ has my three tests
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# [23:37] <Lachy> anne, 003 needs to give instructions to click the text
# [23:38] * tantek thought he heard someone say "I can run MacIE"
# [23:39] <anne> Lachy, no
# [23:39] <anne> Lachy, maybe to not click the test
# [23:39] <anne> text
# [23:39] <Lachy> oh, right.
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# [23:43] <smedero> tantek: you did
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# [23:44] <kingryan> i think someone just made tantek's day
# [23:46] * Lachy wonders if someone can put all these test cases up somewhere so I can see what people have made
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# [23:48] <janet> http://www.guitaretab.com/t/the-clash/3563.html
# [23:49] <tantek> is that a test page janet?
# [23:50] <kingryan> tantek: I think it's an agenda item :)
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# [23:53] <ChrisWilson> heheheh
# [23:54] <ChrisWilson> Yes, Janet, that's an agenda item.
# [23:55] <ChrisWilson> tantek - you're correct. Maciej found a bug in MacIE. :) I paid him back by finding a couple of bugs in Safari.
# [23:57] <tantek> nicely done ChrisWilson
# [23:57] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@63.119.44.88) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 3.0a9pre/2007110505])
# [23:57] * anne is interested in the tests from ChrisWilson
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# [23:58] <Lachy> I wrote another test case http://lachy.id.au/dev/markup/tests/html5/video/004
# [23:58] * kingryan thinks that competitive test writing could be good
# [23:59] * Quits: tlr (roessler@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
# [23:59] <Lachy> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/guidelines.html
# [23:59] <Lachy> that's for whoever it was Hixie just told to look them up
# Session Close: Fri Nov 09 00:00:01 2007

The end :)