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- # Session Start: Mon Nov 19 00:00:00 2007
- # Session Ident: #html-wg
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- # [14:32] <anne> so long for my #whatwg conn
- # [14:32] <anne> with some luck this will all be over by x-mas
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- # [15:41] <anne> Hmm, some people still think <canvas> and SVG are competing despite the fact that every browser that supports <canvas> also has support for SVG
- # [15:42] <anne> And the one addresses immediate mode and the other retained mode graphics
- # [15:44] <Julian> Anne, it's true that FF has support for SVG, but I wouldn't consider it complete. Feed it with a complex file and you'll see what I mean.
- # [15:45] <anne> That goes for each implementation of almost anything
- # [15:47] <anne> Firefox' current <canvas> (Firefox 2.0) implementation isn't too great either
- # [15:47] <Julian> At the current state I don't think it's usable in Firefox, for instance there#s no zoom in/out (or I can't find it). So ithe support isn't as mature as, for instamce, the support for Jpg or Png.
- # [15:48] <Julian> And yes, I would be less concerned about canvas, it SVG would already work well in FF/Opera/Safari.
- # [15:49] <anne> Given that they address different use cases I'm a bit confused
- # [15:49] <anne> Also, SVG is fricking complicated and many of the feedback the SVG WG got from implementors was dismissed
- # [15:49] <Julian> speaking of which it doesn't work much better with Opera 9.5. Maybe it's a problem in the SVG code produced by Graphviz.
- # [15:50] <anne> I'm told by various people our SVG implementation is one of the best
- # [15:50] <anne> I'm not sure what that means though
- # [15:51] <Julian> That may be true, but try zooming in/out in http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc2616.references.svg. Check whether you still can scroll to the ends of the graphics when you zoom out.
- # [15:51] <anne> Apart from demo's I only encounter the small graphics on intertwingly.net on a frequent basis
- # [15:52] <Julian> So I would feel much better about canvas if there was a reliable implementation of declarative vector graphics.
- # [15:52] <Julian> Cause and effect, right? :-)
- # [15:52] * zcorpan would feel much better about svg if there was a reliable implementation of immediate mode graphics
- # [15:53] <zcorpan> :)
- # [15:53] <anne> I would feel better about SVG if the specification was more sane
- # [15:54] <anne> SVG is also not a simple vector graphics format
- # [15:54] <Julian> so do webkit/FF/Opera have an interoperable subset? That would be interesting to document.
- # [15:54] <anne> Or just a vector graphics format, even
- # [15:57] <anne> Julian, spare time?
- # [15:58] <Julian> a bt
- # [15:58] <Julian> a bit
- # [16:00] <anne> i'm pretty sure there's an interoperable sub set as I can make a circle in all three using the same code, but I'm also sure that when i try slightly different syntax in those attributes i can find interoperability holes which come from undefined error handling, etc.
- # [16:01] <Julian> well, i'm less worried (you know that by know) my consistent error handling.
- # [16:01] <Julian> Consistent handling of *correct* documents would be sufficient to me.
- # [16:02] <anne> sure, you're not dealing with the mess such an attitude causes on a daily basis to QA departments of browser vendors
- # [16:03] <anne> and also the programming part, actually, which slows down implementing new stuff, etc.
- # [16:03] <Julian> yes, I see it strictly from the (capable) author's perspective.
- # [16:04] <anne> there's like 100 such authors, maybe
- # [16:04] <Julian> I think now you underestimate people.
- # [16:04] <Julian> The old problem: people produce crappy content because they get away with it.
- # [16:05] <anne> yes, the problem is with implementations, specs, authors, etc.
- # [16:06] <anne> hence designing for strict error handling (XML) doesn't work because the first time you get consumers that accept less you're getting locked down (RSS for instance)
- # [16:06] <anne> (or XHTML on the "mobile web")
- # [16:07] <Julian> RSS: well, blame Mark Pilgrim and the "universal feed parser". I haven't seen the same problem with Atom, though.
- # [16:07] <Julian> For instance, IE7's feed parser IMHO rejects any non-wellformed Atom (except for the mime type issue)-
- # [16:07] <anne> Mark Pilgrim didn't make the problem, he solved it
- # [16:07] <anne> IMHO?
- # [16:07] <anne> it doesn't do RFC 3023
- # [16:08] <Julian> No, he made it worse.
- # [16:08] <Julian> Because RSS readers compete on how well they handle crap.
- # [16:09] <anne> when he entered the market it was already impossible to not handle non well-formed XML
- # [16:09] <anne> afaict
- # [16:09] <Julian> I haven't seen that problem with any other XML based format except XHTML.
- # [16:10] <Julian> Everything else works just fine, consider WebDAV, XSLT and so on.
- # [16:10] <anne> anyway, it's easy to blame someone, but to me such things indicate that designing with such error handling is flawed
- # [16:10] <Julian> So it seems to me the problem is not with XML in itself, but the group of people not using it correctly.
- # [16:10] <anne> I doubt XSLT and WebDAV have been tested as extensively as the others
- # [16:10] <anne> and even XHTML isn't tested that thorough
- # [16:11] <Julian> I've been supporting a product a WebDAV client for several years, and I didn't have to put in workarounds for server that get XML wrong.
- # [16:11] <Julian> So yes, it works.
- # [16:12] <Julian> http://blogs.msdn.com/rssteam/archive/2005/11/03/489065.aspx -- are you saying this is not true in the release version of IE?
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- # [16:14] <Julian> I just tried and IE7 rejects malformed XML (in Atom format, at least).#
- # [16:14] <anne> I didn't get "IMHO" and I doubt it does RFC 3023
- # [16:14] <Julian> So I stick with my p.o.v. that it's possible to use XML, it's just some developer communities didn't do it right.
- # [16:15] <Julian> Yes, that's why I said "except the mime type issue".
- # [16:15] <Julian> But this is a permathread and we will not agree on this.
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- # [16:18] <anne> i guess
- # [16:18] <anne> when some draconian format becomes hugely popular on the web we can revisit this i suppose
- # [16:21] <Julian> Atom?
- # [16:23] <anne> Atom has had tons of interop issues with respect to XML
- # [16:24] <Julian> Does it? Pointer?
- # [16:24] <Julian> Mime-type/charset? Namespace? encoding? Wellformedness?
- # [16:25] <anne> different ways of serializing the format from what I recall
- # [16:25] <anne> numerous threads on intertwingly.net on that subject; not sure about exact pointers
- # [16:25] <Julian> you may be refferring to clients not getting namespace decls right. That's a shame.
- # [16:26] <Julian> But as far as I can tell the most important ones have been fixed by now.
- # [16:26] <anne> also, Atom docs are largely autogenerated
- # [16:26] <anne> and not really complex
- # [16:27] <Julian> http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/XmlNamespaceConformanceTests
- # [16:32] <Julian> I would argue that clients that have this problem either do not use an XML parser (-> incompetent), or the developer did not understand the API wrt to namespaces (-> incompetent)
- # [16:32] <Julian> Guess what: seems Opera has (had?) the problem as well.
- # [16:35] <anne> drawing the conclusion that people are incompetent doesn't solve the problem unfortunately
- # [16:35] <Julian> well, it would be interesting how people screw up.
- # [16:35] <Julian> Is it because they think they can parse XML with regexps?
- # [16:36] <Julian> Or because they do not understand namespaces?
- # [16:36] <Julian> Go ahead, find out from your colleagues :-)
- # [16:36] <anne> i'm sure the latter is true
- # [16:36] <anne> even the W3C Team is sometimes confused about that
- # [16:38] <anne> 90% of the questions Micah Dubinko got on XForms were about namespaces too
- # [16:38] <anne> XML also has the internal subset, which might expose a new set of issues if someone starts out to play with it for feeds
- # [16:39] <Julian> Well yes, that's a known challenge with XML.
- # [16:39] <Julian> IETF recommends not to allow external entities. See BCP whatever.
- # [16:39] <anne> I'm not talking about external entities
- # [16:40] <anne> they are obsolete as far as I'm concerned
- # [16:41] <anne> I'm talking about XML like this: http://www.詹姆斯.com/blog/2007/10/obfuscated-atom
- # [16:41] <anne> (it's supposedly non well-formed btw though a surprising number of XML parsers claim the contrary)
- # [16:42] <anne> (and this is not a character encoding issue)
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- # [16:46] <Julian> That may be true, but the good thing here is that the XML spec probably defines it. So if it's illegal, a parser that accepts it is broken, and should be fixed.
- # [16:48] <anne> the problem is that a something that was previously an XML document suddenly isn't because it relied on a bug in the parser / validator / etc.
- # [16:48] <anne> that's potentially harmful as you lose information that way
- # [16:49] <Julian> That's a problem, but does this affect "real world content" (to repeat a term a hear a lot), or is this an aedge case that doesn't occur in the wild?
- # [16:49] <Julian> And yes, draconian error handling depends on that it works the same everywhere.
- # [16:49] <Julian> If that's not the case, it's a problem.
- # [16:49] <Julian> So far I think XML is a success story, despite RSS.
- # [16:52] <anne> oh yes, just not on the Web
- # [16:52] <Julian> Well, that's where we'll continue to disagree.
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- # [16:53] <anne> sure
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- # [17:05] <Dashiva> anne: Is the domain supposed to have chinese characters?
- # [17:07] <Philip> Dashiva: I expect so, unless the registerer happened to like the sound of xn--8ws00zhy3a.com and didn't realise it would get turned into Chinese
- # [17:08] <Dashiva> I figured it might be too-clever decoding in my IRC client
- # [17:19] <gsnedders> Dashiva: it's James Holderness's URI, partly in existence to break things (which it sadly does all too well)
- # [17:19] <gsnedders> s/URI/IRI/
- # [17:19] <gsnedders> Dashiva: see the first post
- # [17:19] <gsnedders> actually, maybe it isn't the first
- # [17:21] <Philip> URL autocomplete isn't very useful when my keyboard has none of the necessary characters
- # [17:22] <gsnedders> :D
- # [17:31] <Dashiva> Hmm, that's kinda neat
- # [17:32] <Dashiva> "Most of what you’ll see here will be tech stuff: programming, syndication, Atom and RSS – possibly the occasional cat picture. All that remains now, is for me to obtain a cat."
- # [17:36] <gsnedders> if he were Chris Wilson, people would be slagging him off for posting cat pictures and not working on IE… oh, wait. that's been happening already.
- # [17:47] <zcorpan> anne: i find an unsent email where i wrote "It's not clear to me what this means, and therefore I don't know how to test it." where "it" refers to the Window pointer thing in xhr
- # [17:48] <anne> i'm not sure how to tackle it
- # [17:49] <zcorpan> anne: the requirement seems to be empty... won't the spec mean the same thing if you changed it to a statement of fact? "Conforming UAs will act as if..."?
- # [17:49] <anne> oh, i'm not really concerned about phrasing
- # [17:49] <anne> it's similar to requiring that user agents follow a list of steps
- # [17:49] <anne> where in fact they can implement that in any number of ways
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- # [17:49] <anne> and it wouldn't matter for interop
- # [17:50] <zcorpan> right
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- # [18:58] <zcorpan> we need a DOM spec without EntityReferences and where attributes don't have child nodes
- # [18:59] <anne> there's need for a "Web DOM 5" spec in general
- # [18:59] <anne> "Web DOM Core 5" and "Web DOM Events 5" and at some point ranges and the like need to be tackled too to capture the extensions people have been making
- # [18:59] <anne> if you have spare time...
- # [19:00] <zcorpan> yeah
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The end :)