/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-11-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Nov 19 00:00:00 2007
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  59. # [14:32] <anne> so long for my #whatwg conn
  60. # [14:32] <anne> with some luck this will all be over by x-mas
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  71. # [15:41] <anne> Hmm, some people still think <canvas> and SVG are competing despite the fact that every browser that supports <canvas> also has support for SVG
  72. # [15:42] <anne> And the one addresses immediate mode and the other retained mode graphics
  73. # [15:44] <Julian> Anne, it's true that FF has support for SVG, but I wouldn't consider it complete. Feed it with a complex file and you'll see what I mean.
  74. # [15:45] <anne> That goes for each implementation of almost anything
  75. # [15:47] <anne> Firefox' current <canvas> (Firefox 2.0) implementation isn't too great either
  76. # [15:47] <Julian> At the current state I don't think it's usable in Firefox, for instance there#s no zoom in/out (or I can't find it). So ithe support isn't as mature as, for instamce, the support for Jpg or Png.
  77. # [15:48] <Julian> And yes, I would be less concerned about canvas, it SVG would already work well in FF/Opera/Safari.
  78. # [15:49] <anne> Given that they address different use cases I'm a bit confused
  79. # [15:49] <anne> Also, SVG is fricking complicated and many of the feedback the SVG WG got from implementors was dismissed
  80. # [15:49] <Julian> speaking of which it doesn't work much better with Opera 9.5. Maybe it's a problem in the SVG code produced by Graphviz.
  81. # [15:50] <anne> I'm told by various people our SVG implementation is one of the best
  82. # [15:50] <anne> I'm not sure what that means though
  83. # [15:51] <Julian> That may be true, but try zooming in/out in http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc2616.references.svg. Check whether you still can scroll to the ends of the graphics when you zoom out.
  84. # [15:51] <anne> Apart from demo's I only encounter the small graphics on intertwingly.net on a frequent basis
  85. # [15:52] <Julian> So I would feel much better about canvas if there was a reliable implementation of declarative vector graphics.
  86. # [15:52] <Julian> Cause and effect, right? :-)
  87. # [15:52] * zcorpan would feel much better about svg if there was a reliable implementation of immediate mode graphics
  88. # [15:53] <zcorpan> :)
  89. # [15:53] <anne> I would feel better about SVG if the specification was more sane
  90. # [15:54] <anne> SVG is also not a simple vector graphics format
  91. # [15:54] <Julian> so do webkit/FF/Opera have an interoperable subset? That would be interesting to document.
  92. # [15:54] <anne> Or just a vector graphics format, even
  93. # [15:57] <anne> Julian, spare time?
  94. # [15:58] <Julian> a bt
  95. # [15:58] <Julian> a bit
  96. # [16:00] <anne> i'm pretty sure there's an interoperable sub set as I can make a circle in all three using the same code, but I'm also sure that when i try slightly different syntax in those attributes i can find interoperability holes which come from undefined error handling, etc.
  97. # [16:01] <Julian> well, i'm less worried (you know that by know) my consistent error handling.
  98. # [16:01] <Julian> Consistent handling of *correct* documents would be sufficient to me.
  99. # [16:02] <anne> sure, you're not dealing with the mess such an attitude causes on a daily basis to QA departments of browser vendors
  100. # [16:03] <anne> and also the programming part, actually, which slows down implementing new stuff, etc.
  101. # [16:03] <Julian> yes, I see it strictly from the (capable) author's perspective.
  102. # [16:04] <anne> there's like 100 such authors, maybe
  103. # [16:04] <Julian> I think now you underestimate people.
  104. # [16:04] <Julian> The old problem: people produce crappy content because they get away with it.
  105. # [16:05] <anne> yes, the problem is with implementations, specs, authors, etc.
  106. # [16:06] <anne> hence designing for strict error handling (XML) doesn't work because the first time you get consumers that accept less you're getting locked down (RSS for instance)
  107. # [16:06] <anne> (or XHTML on the "mobile web")
  108. # [16:07] <Julian> RSS: well, blame Mark Pilgrim and the "universal feed parser". I haven't seen the same problem with Atom, though.
  109. # [16:07] <Julian> For instance, IE7's feed parser IMHO rejects any non-wellformed Atom (except for the mime type issue)-
  110. # [16:07] <anne> Mark Pilgrim didn't make the problem, he solved it
  111. # [16:07] <anne> IMHO?
  112. # [16:07] <anne> it doesn't do RFC 3023
  113. # [16:08] <Julian> No, he made it worse.
  114. # [16:08] <Julian> Because RSS readers compete on how well they handle crap.
  115. # [16:09] <anne> when he entered the market it was already impossible to not handle non well-formed XML
  116. # [16:09] <anne> afaict
  117. # [16:09] <Julian> I haven't seen that problem with any other XML based format except XHTML.
  118. # [16:10] <Julian> Everything else works just fine, consider WebDAV, XSLT and so on.
  119. # [16:10] <anne> anyway, it's easy to blame someone, but to me such things indicate that designing with such error handling is flawed
  120. # [16:10] <Julian> So it seems to me the problem is not with XML in itself, but the group of people not using it correctly.
  121. # [16:10] <anne> I doubt XSLT and WebDAV have been tested as extensively as the others
  122. # [16:10] <anne> and even XHTML isn't tested that thorough
  123. # [16:11] <Julian> I've been supporting a product a WebDAV client for several years, and I didn't have to put in workarounds for server that get XML wrong.
  124. # [16:11] <Julian> So yes, it works.
  125. # [16:12] <Julian> http://blogs.msdn.com/rssteam/archive/2005/11/03/489065.aspx -- are you saying this is not true in the release version of IE?
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  128. # [16:14] <Julian> I just tried and IE7 rejects malformed XML (in Atom format, at least).#
  129. # [16:14] <anne> I didn't get "IMHO" and I doubt it does RFC 3023
  130. # [16:14] <Julian> So I stick with my p.o.v. that it's possible to use XML, it's just some developer communities didn't do it right.
  131. # [16:15] <Julian> Yes, that's why I said "except the mime type issue".
  132. # [16:15] <Julian> But this is a permathread and we will not agree on this.
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  134. # [16:18] <anne> i guess
  135. # [16:18] <anne> when some draconian format becomes hugely popular on the web we can revisit this i suppose
  136. # [16:21] <Julian> Atom?
  137. # [16:23] <anne> Atom has had tons of interop issues with respect to XML
  138. # [16:24] <Julian> Does it? Pointer?
  139. # [16:24] <Julian> Mime-type/charset? Namespace? encoding? Wellformedness?
  140. # [16:25] <anne> different ways of serializing the format from what I recall
  141. # [16:25] <anne> numerous threads on intertwingly.net on that subject; not sure about exact pointers
  142. # [16:25] <Julian> you may be refferring to clients not getting namespace decls right. That's a shame.
  143. # [16:26] <Julian> But as far as I can tell the most important ones have been fixed by now.
  144. # [16:26] <anne> also, Atom docs are largely autogenerated
  145. # [16:26] <anne> and not really complex
  146. # [16:27] <Julian> http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/XmlNamespaceConformanceTests
  147. # [16:32] <Julian> I would argue that clients that have this problem either do not use an XML parser (-> incompetent), or the developer did not understand the API wrt to namespaces (-> incompetent)
  148. # [16:32] <Julian> Guess what: seems Opera has (had?) the problem as well.
  149. # [16:35] <anne> drawing the conclusion that people are incompetent doesn't solve the problem unfortunately
  150. # [16:35] <Julian> well, it would be interesting how people screw up.
  151. # [16:35] <Julian> Is it because they think they can parse XML with regexps?
  152. # [16:36] <Julian> Or because they do not understand namespaces?
  153. # [16:36] <Julian> Go ahead, find out from your colleagues :-)
  154. # [16:36] <anne> i'm sure the latter is true
  155. # [16:36] <anne> even the W3C Team is sometimes confused about that
  156. # [16:38] <anne> 90% of the questions Micah Dubinko got on XForms were about namespaces too
  157. # [16:38] <anne> XML also has the internal subset, which might expose a new set of issues if someone starts out to play with it for feeds
  158. # [16:39] <Julian> Well yes, that's a known challenge with XML.
  159. # [16:39] <Julian> IETF recommends not to allow external entities. See BCP whatever.
  160. # [16:39] <anne> I'm not talking about external entities
  161. # [16:40] <anne> they are obsolete as far as I'm concerned
  162. # [16:41] <anne> I'm talking about XML like this: http://www.詹姆斯.com/blog/2007/10/obfuscated-atom
  163. # [16:41] <anne> (it's supposedly non well-formed btw though a surprising number of XML parsers claim the contrary)
  164. # [16:42] <anne> (and this is not a character encoding issue)
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  166. # [16:46] <Julian> That may be true, but the good thing here is that the XML spec probably defines it. So if it's illegal, a parser that accepts it is broken, and should be fixed.
  167. # [16:48] <anne> the problem is that a something that was previously an XML document suddenly isn't because it relied on a bug in the parser / validator / etc.
  168. # [16:48] <anne> that's potentially harmful as you lose information that way
  169. # [16:49] <Julian> That's a problem, but does this affect "real world content" (to repeat a term a hear a lot), or is this an aedge case that doesn't occur in the wild?
  170. # [16:49] <Julian> And yes, draconian error handling depends on that it works the same everywhere.
  171. # [16:49] <Julian> If that's not the case, it's a problem.
  172. # [16:49] <Julian> So far I think XML is a success story, despite RSS.
  173. # [16:52] <anne> oh yes, just not on the Web
  174. # [16:52] <Julian> Well, that's where we'll continue to disagree.
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  176. # [16:53] <anne> sure
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  180. # [17:05] <Dashiva> anne: Is the domain supposed to have chinese characters?
  181. # [17:07] <Philip> Dashiva: I expect so, unless the registerer happened to like the sound of xn--8ws00zhy3a.com and didn't realise it would get turned into Chinese
  182. # [17:08] <Dashiva> I figured it might be too-clever decoding in my IRC client
  183. # [17:19] <gsnedders> Dashiva: it's James Holderness's URI, partly in existence to break things (which it sadly does all too well)
  184. # [17:19] <gsnedders> s/URI/IRI/
  185. # [17:19] <gsnedders> Dashiva: see the first post
  186. # [17:19] <gsnedders> actually, maybe it isn't the first
  187. # [17:21] <Philip> URL autocomplete isn't very useful when my keyboard has none of the necessary characters
  188. # [17:22] <gsnedders> :D
  189. # [17:31] <Dashiva> Hmm, that's kinda neat
  190. # [17:32] <Dashiva> "Most of what you’ll see here will be tech stuff: programming, syndication, Atom and RSS – possibly the occasional cat picture. All that remains now, is for me to obtain a cat."
  191. # [17:36] <gsnedders> if he were Chris Wilson, people would be slagging him off for posting cat pictures and not working on IE… oh, wait. that's been happening already.
  192. # [17:47] <zcorpan> anne: i find an unsent email where i wrote "It's not clear to me what this means, and therefore I don't know how to test it." where "it" refers to the Window pointer thing in xhr
  193. # [17:48] <anne> i'm not sure how to tackle it
  194. # [17:49] <zcorpan> anne: the requirement seems to be empty... won't the spec mean the same thing if you changed it to a statement of fact? "Conforming UAs will act as if..."?
  195. # [17:49] <anne> oh, i'm not really concerned about phrasing
  196. # [17:49] <anne> it's similar to requiring that user agents follow a list of steps
  197. # [17:49] <anne> where in fact they can implement that in any number of ways
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  199. # [17:49] <anne> and it wouldn't matter for interop
  200. # [17:50] <zcorpan> right
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  210. # [18:58] <zcorpan> we need a DOM spec without EntityReferences and where attributes don't have child nodes
  211. # [18:59] <anne> there's need for a "Web DOM 5" spec in general
  212. # [18:59] <anne> "Web DOM Core 5" and "Web DOM Events 5" and at some point ranges and the like need to be tackled too to capture the extensions people have been making
  213. # [18:59] <anne> if you have spare time...
  214. # [19:00] <zcorpan> yeah
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  252. # [22:49] * Joins: timbl_ (timbl@128.30.5.117)
  253. # [23:15] * Quits: gavin (gavin@99.227.30.12) (Ping timeout)
  254. # [23:20] * Joins: gavin (gavin@99.227.30.12)
  255. # [23:36] * Quits: jgraham (james@81.86.210.2) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  256. # [23:37] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@66.30.196.151) (Ping timeout)
  257. # [23:40] * Quits: jane (j@76.170.65.146) (Ping timeout)
  258. # [23:43] * Joins: jgraham (james@81.86.210.2)
  259. # Session Close: Tue Nov 20 00:00:00 2007

The end :)