/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-03-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Mar 10 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  6. # [09:48] * Set by DanC_lap on Mon Mar 10 03:08:44
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  11. # [10:18] * Set by DanC_lap on Mon Mar 10 03:08:44
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  16. # [10:21] * Set by DanC_lap on Mon Mar 10 03:08:44
  17. # [10:22] <hsivonen> as for something new like htmlns, we don't need that in order to support SVG and MathML, so we shouldn't get carried away and we shouldn't complicate the authoring of SVG and MathML by making them require more boiler plate
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  22. # [11:28] * Set by DanC_lap on Mon Mar 10 03:08:44
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  26. # [11:52] <jgraham_> FWIW I think SVG in text/html has to support quoteless attributes at the parser level but I'm less concerned about whether it is conforming or not (there are good arguments in both directions)
  27. # [11:53] * jgraham_ can't stay to discuss right now, unfortunately
  28. # [11:53] <shepazu> "has to"?
  29. # [11:54] <jgraham_> Well given a byte stream like <svg height=50 width=50> we have to do something with it
  30. # [11:55] <jgraham_> (draconian errors are not a sensible option)
  31. # [11:55] <shepazu> spare me
  32. # [11:56] <jgraham_> OK :)
  33. # [11:56] * Quits: peepo (Jay@86.147.236.233) (Quit: later)
  34. # [11:56] <shepazu> this isn't legacy HTML we're talking about
  35. # [11:56] <jgraham_> This is legacy html we're talking about
  36. # [11:56] <hsivonen> shepazu: text/html has 3 key features
  37. # [11:57] <hsivonen> 1) the HTML part of a document is compatible with legacy UAs
  38. # [11:57] <hsivonen> 2) non-Draconian error handling
  39. # [11:57] <jgraham_> and even where the content is new it will be produced by legacy HTML CMS's which are ill suited for producing well-formed content
  40. # [11:58] <hsivonen> 3) can be defined to be compatible with IE without application/xhtml+xml participation from Microsoft
  41. # [11:58] <shepazu> jgraham_, including new kinds of content like SVG?
  42. # [11:58] <shepazu> hsivonen, those are design principles
  43. # [11:58] <hsivonen> shepazu: legacy PHP spaghetti can't ensure the well-formedness of SVG any better than XHTML
  44. # [11:59] <shepazu> not laws of physics
  45. # [11:59] <jgraham_> shepazu: Yes.
  46. # [11:59] <hsivonen> shepazu: I think they are statements of fact given the way the world is now
  47. # [11:59] <hsivonen> shepazu: calling them "key features" is an opinion
  48. # [11:59] <shepazu> if you ask DanC, no design decisions about the language are yet final
  49. # [11:59] * jgraham_ really, really has to leave now.
  50. # [12:00] <hsivonen> shepazu: the way shipped software *is* is final
  51. # [12:01] * hsivonen steps away from the computer, too
  52. # [12:01] * shepazu is seriously considering whether SVG in text/html is a good idea
  53. # [12:01] <shepazu> if such impositions are going to be put on the language, it may be best to stay away from it
  54. # [12:01] * Philip would like it if SVG-in-text/html could be handled in browsers like Firefox 3 by using a script that twiddles the DOM
  55. # [12:01] <shepazu> and only allow it in XHTML serializations
  56. # [12:02] <shepazu> I'm seriously concerned that ripping up the language in this way would hurt adoption
  57. # [12:02] <shepazu> because it would create 2 incompatible kinds of UA
  58. # [12:02] <anne> you're confusing language and serialization
  59. # [12:02] <shepazu> no, I'm not, anne
  60. # [12:03] <anne> i disagree
  61. # [12:03] <shepazu> I know the difference
  62. # [12:04] <shepazu> do you seriously think that using a different term for it will change the effect in the market?
  63. # [12:04] <hsivonen> anne: shepazu is right that enabling SVG in text/html would create something that's incompatible with the already shipped XHTML+SVG UAs
  64. # [12:04] <anne> i agree with that, it's a new thing
  65. # [12:04] <shepazu> hsivonen, no, that's not what I said
  66. # [12:05] <Philip> It could be nice if text/html UAs showed SVG images with a right click 'save as...' that always saves as well-formed XML
  67. # [12:05] <shepazu> I said that changing SVG in the way you're talking about would cause the problem
  68. # [12:05] <hsivonen> the justification for that incompatibility is that enabling SVG in text/html would enable wider SVG adoption in the future
  69. # [12:05] <shepazu> we could enforce quoted attributes just fine, you just don't wish to
  70. # [12:05] <hsivonen> shepazu: sorry. you said 2 incompatible kinds of UA. I thought you were contrasting SVG-in-text/html UAs with existing UAs
  71. # [12:05] <anne> having SVG UAs support text/html SVG is fairly trivial
  72. # [12:06] <anne> now text/html parsing is defined anyway
  73. # [12:06] <Philip> shepazu: What do you think should happen when someone uses unquoted attributes?
  74. # [12:06] <shepazu> the same thing that happens in SVG
  75. # [12:07] <Philip> The whole containing (X)HTML document would be replaced with an error message?
  76. # [12:07] <shepazu> by necessity
  77. # [12:07] * hsivonen really steps away from the computer
  78. # [12:07] <shepazu> Philip, you should know by now that that's an exaggeration
  79. # [12:07] <anne> so you want to introduce fatal error handling in text/html?
  80. # [12:07] <anne> lol
  81. # [12:08] <Philip> shepazu: I'm not sure what else it would do, that isn't different to what happens nowadays with SVG
  82. # [12:08] <shepazu> what percentage of SVG content has this problem?
  83. # [12:09] <shepazu> well-formedness errors, that is?
  84. # [12:09] <anne> http://diveintomark.org/archives/2008/03/09/no-fury-like-dracon-scorned
  85. # [12:09] <anne> anyway, i'm done with this discussion
  86. # [12:10] <shepazu> approximately 0%
  87. # [12:10] <shepazu> because the rules are well-known and easy to understand
  88. # [12:11] <shepazu> anne, I agree it's a silly conversation... of course, it's one you started
  89. # [12:11] <shepazu> ;P
  90. # [12:13] <anne> really?
  91. # [12:14] <shepazu> yes, nobody mentioned quoteless attributes until you dropped the apple of discord in
  92. # [12:14] * anne shrugs
  93. # [12:15] <anne> it started way before that, with special casing SVG/MathML, etc.
  94. # [12:15] <anne> i just provided some illustration on how that would work
  95. # [12:16] <shepazu> in a way you know is totally unpalatable to everyone involved in SVG today
  96. # [12:20] <anne> for some dfn of involved you're probably right
  97. # [12:25] <shepazu> then I wonder why you think it's useful to bring that into the discussion?
  98. # [12:25] <shepazu> rather than talk about more interesting aspects we can agree on
  99. # [12:25] <anne> as I said, ter illustration of what special case SVG/MathML would look like
  100. # [12:26] <anne> and what i'd like to be able to do
  101. # [12:26] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Quit: tlr)
  102. # [12:26] <shepazu> why would you want to do that?
  103. # [12:26] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30)
  104. # [12:26] <shepazu> what serious benefit is there?
  105. # [12:26] <anne> some SVG authors on the Web would be fine with seeing "draconian" stuff go btw
  106. # [12:27] <anne> I said it before, to make the HTML format (not language) internall consistent
  107. # [12:27] <shepazu> I'm sure that's true, but do they understand the problems that would cause for others?
  108. # [12:27] <anne> Sam Ruby and Jacques Distler are smart people
  109. # [12:27] <shepazu> internal consistency is not a very good technical argument, that's a matter of style
  110. # [12:28] <shepazu> yes, they are
  111. # [12:28] <anne> is there a technical argument for doing it differently from HTML?
  112. # [12:29] <shepazu> there's several pragmatic arguments, which is what it should really be about
  113. # [12:29] <shepazu> toolchains and UAs
  114. # [12:29] <anne> established HTML tokenizers, parser infrastructure is similar
  115. # [12:30] <shepazu> if I suggested that we changed tables in a way incompatible with older user agents, you wouldn't even entertain the idea
  116. # [12:30] <anne> i'm not entertaining this idea either, i'm just answering questions
  117. # [12:30] <shepazu> when I suggested a very pragmatic fallback for iframe contents, you dismissed it out of hand
  118. # [12:30] <hsivonen> shepazu: you have to weight the cost against the payoff. we are assuming that XML is holding SVG back and text/html compat would make SVG take off
  119. # [12:31] <anne> i forgot what you said about <iframe>, but the way it's parsed can't be changed, no
  120. # [12:31] <anne> (apart from maybe dropping its contents on the floor, that worked for Opera until Acid3 came along)
  121. # [12:31] <shepazu> anne, you seem to think that your pet use cases are somehow more relevant, but I don't think so
  122. # [12:31] <anne> it's not a pet use case
  123. # [12:32] <anne> breaking fundamental assumptions about how HTML works is just not done
  124. # [12:32] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Quit: tlr)
  125. # [12:32] <shepazu> anne, I feel the same way about SVG
  126. # [12:32] <anne> changing HTML tokenizers and parsers to include XML parsing is near insane
  127. # [12:32] <anne> shepazu, SVG is a language, not a serialization
  128. # [12:32] <anne> just like we have XHTML
  129. # [12:33] <shepazu> hsivonen, you may be right, but it's a supposition, not one I've seen backed by evidence
  130. # [12:33] <shepazu> and it's a very risky one at that
  131. # [12:33] <anne> if it doesn't take off it's not risky
  132. # [12:33] <anne> we can simple take it out again :)
  133. # [12:34] <shepazu> you know better than that
  134. # [12:34] <anne> if it takes off, well, it takes off, that's good right?
  135. # [12:34] <hsivonen> shepazu: there is evidence, though, that XML is too hard even for smart people who actively try to do the right thing
  136. # [12:35] <shepazu> how about if it takes off a little, but not enough to justify changing all the older UAs, just enough to create content that makes people think SVG doesn't work the same way in different places?
  137. # [12:35] <anne> why is SVG so different from HTML and XHTML?
  138. # [12:35] <anne> why should I not be able to write SVG in three different ways just like I can do with HTML?
  139. # [12:35] <shepazu> hsivonen, are you talking edge cases of XML, or just normal aspects?
  140. # [12:36] <hsivonen> shepazu: I'm talking about edge cases getting hit in day-to-day content management system operation
  141. # [12:37] <shepazu> hsivonen, give me an example of SVG that's "too hard for smart people" that is related to the serialization
  142. # [12:38] <shepazu> anne, because SVG UAs don't (and shouldn't have to) understand your pet serialization
  143. # [12:38] <anne> lol
  144. # [12:38] <anne> it's hard to believe you're still serious
  145. # [12:38] <anne> HTML a pet serialization?
  146. # [12:38] <shepazu> I feel exactly the same about you
  147. # [12:39] * krijnh hands out cookies
  148. # [12:40] <shepazu> anne, I mean your pet serialization of SVG, not HTML... HTML is already a mess
  149. # [12:40] <anne> Again, adding XML support to HTML is non-trivial. Adding HTML support to SVG UAs is trivial.
  150. # [12:40] * Philip warns krijnh about the dangers of accepting cookies from strangers
  151. # [12:40] <krijnh> :)
  152. # [12:41] <shepazu> anne, that's a fallacy
  153. # [12:41] <hsivonen> shepazu: there's so little SVG on the Web at the moment that I don't have practical examples of the SVG part itself being too hard. However, what I said was that there's evidence about XML being too hard
  154. # [12:41] <hsivonen> shepazu: the usual case of XML being too hard is that a trackback, comment or search string contains a forbidden Unicode code point
  155. # [12:42] <shepazu> anne, you're equating 2 different things: a language and a UA
  156. # [12:42] <hsivonen> shepazu: however, authors accidentally forgetting to close an element happens, too
  157. # [12:42] <hsivonen> shepazu: I have seen these issues in the XHTML part of blogs that use application/xhtml+xml in order to be able to embed SVG inline
  158. # [12:42] <shepazu> hsivonen, yes, and that can be easily caught and corrected
  159. # [12:42] <anne> shepazu, ok, whatever, adding XML support to HTML UAs is non-trivial. Adding HTML support to SVG UAs is trivial.
  160. # [12:43] <krijnh> http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/03/10/x-ua-compatible-doesnt-work
  161. # [12:43] * Philip notes that http://www.google.com/search?q=filetype:svg says there's 783K examples of SVG on the web
  162. # [12:43] <Philip> (Also the first one gives me an XML parse error in Opera)
  163. # [12:43] <anne> consider document.write() etc.
  164. # [12:43] <shepazu> anne, that's not true... XML is much simpler than HTML5
  165. # [12:43] <anne> no
  166. # [12:43] <Philip> (because it uses xlink:href without an xmlns:xlink)
  167. # [12:43] <shepazu> for implementing, I mean
  168. # [12:43] <anne> I implemented both a HTML parser and an XML parser
  169. # [12:43] <anne> an HTML*
  170. # [12:43] <hsivonen> shepazu: creating a need for detect&fix firefighting is not a good idea considering the opportunity cost of the human effort involved
  171. # [12:44] <anne> about as complicated
  172. # [12:44] <anne> XML has the internal subset crazyness and all kinds of character checking, and HTML has adoption agencies...
  173. # [12:44] <anne> (and foster parents)
  174. # [12:44] <hsivonen> shepazu: I've written an HTML parser and I've non-trivially patched an XML parser from the simpler end of the spectrum
  175. # [12:44] <shepazu> anne, then why did you just claim the opposite, that XML was more complicated?
  176. # [12:44] <hsivonen> shepazu: I assure you that XML isn't simple
  177. # [12:44] <hsivonen> possibly not even simpler
  178. # [12:44] <anne> shepazu, I said adding XML to HTML is complicated
  179. # [12:45] <hsivonen> I'd write an XML parser if DTDs weren't a part of XML
  180. # [12:46] <anne> results 3 and 4 of SVG have a text/plain media type
  181. # [12:46] <anne> fun stuff Philip
  182. # [12:47] <Philip> http://www.google.com/search?q=filetype%3Asvg+xlink%3Ahref+-xmlns%3Axlink - do normal SVG UAs ignore those well-formedness errors?
  183. # [12:47] <anne> Adobe did
  184. # [12:47] <hsivonen> do they make media type barbies yet?
  185. # [12:47] <anne> :)
  186. # [12:49] <shepazu> I actually don't much care about the namespace in the root, actually
  187. # [12:49] <Philip> http://webdoc.kecskemet.hu/terseg_attekinto.svg doesn't use the SVG xmlns at all - do normal SVG UAs ignore that too?
  188. # [12:49] <shepazu> nor am I particularly rigid on the xlinkns stuff...
  189. # [12:49] <hsivonen> do we have a list of which UAs are "normal"?
  190. # [12:49] <Philip> (http://genotext.stanford.edu/figure_4a.svg too)
  191. # [12:50] <shepazu> though it would break links in older SVG UAs
  192. # [12:50] <Philip> http://artist4web.com/Documents/SVGImage.svg - oops :-(
  193. # [12:52] * Joins: myakura (myakura@122.29.8.215)
  194. # [12:52] <Philip> It seems like there's roughly as many with the xlink error as there are without
  195. # [12:52] <hsivonen> shepazu: ok, Philip's examples are SVG being too hard :-)
  196. # [12:53] <shepazu> hsivonen, that's not an issue of serialization, which is what we were talking about
  197. # [12:54] <shepazu> Philip, older SVGs probably won't have it, because at the time the primary UA was made, it was thought that the namespace wasn't required... newer UAs are more strict, and so new content will have it
  198. # [12:54] <hsivonen> shepazu: the media type thing is an issue that could be solved by embedding in text/html as it would remove the need to serve .svg with the right type
  199. # [12:55] <shepazu> but again, I don't think that the ns declaration is that big a deal
  200. # [12:55] <hsivonen> shepazu: moreover, what I've suggested would work without xmlns, although xmlns would be allowed for IE8 compat, as a talisman and as a copypaste artifact
  201. # [12:55] <shepazu> I could happily live without it, though I understand why it was thought to be necessary at the time
  202. # [12:55] <hsivonen> shepazu: the ns decl is a very big deal in conforming XML systems
  203. # [12:55] <anne> such as Opera is nowadays...
  204. # [12:55] <hsivonen> shepazu: should we cherry-pick XML?
  205. # [12:56] <shepazu> hsivonen, are you trying to be productive or sarcastic?
  206. # [12:57] <anne> man, try acting in good faith for a change
  207. # [12:57] <shepazu> anne, that's rich from you
  208. # [12:57] <hsivonen> shepazu: productive by pointing out that saying that ns decl doesn't matter but quotes do is not a very consistent positition
  209. # [12:57] <shepazu> hsivonen, I think there are some things that are pragmatically and technically important... I think quoted attributes are one of them
  210. # [12:58] <shepazu> pragamatically, because all older UAs (ASV, for example) need them
  211. # [12:58] <hsivonen> if it isn't XML exactly warts and all, then surely various parts are up for discussion
  212. # [12:59] <shepazu> while ASV doesn't need ns dclarations, and 'svg' is unique enough an element name that it could be usefully identified without the ns decl
  213. # [13:00] <hsivonen> (that's the basis of my tree builder scope-based proposal)
  214. # [13:00] <shepazu> history plays a part in this story too, as you know from HTML
  215. # [13:00] <zcorpan> shepazu: but the Namespaces in XML spec doesn't allow UAs to guess the namespace based on element names
  216. # [13:01] <shepazu> zcorpan, NSX isn't XML
  217. # [13:01] <shepazu> and I'm not arguing from a purist perspective
  218. # [13:01] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Client exited)
  219. # [13:01] <zcorpan> shepazu: no namespace declaration means no namespace in XML per spec, and unbound prefixes is a namespace-wellformedness error
  220. # [13:02] <zcorpan> shepazu: top browsers have namespace-aware XML parsers
  221. # [13:02] <gsnedders> shepazu: you mean ASV supports <svg> inline in HTML? or…?
  222. # [13:02] <hsivonen> ASV is a zombie
  223. # [13:02] <shepazu> gsnedders, well... after a fashion
  224. # [13:03] <gsnedders> I've never heard anything about that, ever.
  225. # [13:03] <shepazu> gsnedders, you can make a file that uses SVG inline in (X)HTML that will work in both modern browsers and in IE+ASV, using IE's data islands
  226. # [13:04] <gsnedders> ah.
  227. # [13:04] <zcorpan> gsnedders: it works in IE7 with ActiveX using either the <object> trigger or application/xhtml+xml as trigger
  228. # [13:04] <shepazu> in fact, I did so on my home page many years ago
  229. # [13:04] <shepazu> ASV is indeed a zombie
  230. # [13:05] <shepazu> but since IE doesn't support SVG...
  231. # [13:05] <zcorpan> with IE8 it would work in text/html without the <object> to trigger, AIUI
  232. # [13:05] <hsivonen> is there a non-zombie SVG ActiveX control ready to hook into the new IE8 mechanism?
  233. # [13:06] <shepazu> hsivonen, I doubt it... but I do know of potential replacements
  234. # [13:06] <shepazu> sadly, nothing I can talk about publicly
  235. # [13:06] <hsivonen> :-(
  236. # [13:06] <shepazu> or even privately, outside W3C Team
  237. # [13:07] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  238. # [13:09] <shepazu> the real shame of it is, ASV is still one of the best SVG UAs out there, even if it's not as complete as I'd like it
  239. # [13:09] <shepazu> it performs better than any of the native implementations in most cases
  240. # [13:10] <shepazu> (there are exceptions, of course... some things are faster in Opera or Safari)
  241. # [13:10] <Philip> (Is nothing faster in Firefox? :-) )
  242. # [13:12] <shepazu> Philip, not that I know of... though FF does have support for a couple of things I think weren't implemented in ASV
  243. # [13:13] <Philip> Could ASV do things like foreignObject?
  244. # [13:13] <shepazu> I love FF, and it's the most widespread modern SVG UA on the desktop, but it's not the most performant
  245. # [13:13] <shepazu> Philip, that's a great example where ASV fell down
  246. # [13:14] <Philip> I'd guess that's kind of hard to do as a plugin
  247. # [13:15] <shepazu> well, I heard rumors they actually had XHTML working in internal builds, but I don't think that made it out the door
  248. # [13:15] <shepazu> but it handled it itself, it didn't hand it off to the browser, IIRC
  249. # [13:16] <shepazu> so, probably not fun to script for compound documents
  250. # [13:16] <Philip> Like it was implementing an XHTML UA itself? That does sound kind of hard
  251. # [13:17] <shepazu> not from other sources I know who've done the same... they said that most of XHTML was pretty trivial
  252. # [13:18] <shepazu> I don't know if they implemented everything, of course
  253. # [13:20] * shepazu shakes his head at all the great code that never sees the light of day :(
  254. # [13:21] <Philip> Most of my code seems much less great once it has seen the light of day and everyone has started finding bugs in it :-)
  255. # [13:26] <gsnedders> who needs good code anyway? :P
  256. # [13:27] <Philip> Space shuttle pilots?
  257. # [13:27] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  258. # [13:27] <gsnedders> There aren't many.
  259. # [13:28] <shepazu> yeah, that's an edge case, Philip
  260. # [13:28] <shepazu> those aren't real-world users
  261. # [13:28] <shepazu> by definition
  262. # [13:28] <gsnedders> they're out of this world users.
  263. # [13:29] <anne> oh man
  264. # [13:29] * Philip wonders how many rockets have been lost due to software issues
  265. # [13:29] <anne> are we now going to get "Please think of the space pilots" pleas whenever someone mentions "real-world"? :d
  266. # [13:30] <gsnedders> anne: well, we just respond with they're out of this world.
  267. # [13:30] <Philip> (The only one I remember is the first Ariane 5, but I'd assume there must be others)
  268. # [13:30] <gsnedders> Philip: yeah, plenty others
  269. # [13:34] <hsivonen> Ariane didn't have an on-broard human pilot, did it?
  270. # [13:34] <Philip> No
  271. # [13:35] <Philip> I don't remember any manned flights being lost due to software
  272. # [13:37] <hsivonen> must be fun when Vista revokes display drivers on a laptop on a space station
  273. # [13:37] <Philip> I think they don't use laptops as mission-critical infrastructure :-p
  274. # [13:37] * shepazu wonders if DVD players even work in space... they are definitely out of their region
  275. # [13:38] <MikeSmith> by the hoary hosts of Hoggoth
  276. # [13:38] <hsivonen> wasn't there just a story of a cosmonaut having to spend very expensive time with a software license manager on a space station?
  277. # [13:38] <MikeSmith> load on my mail server at 27+
  278. # [13:38] <MikeSmith> what the hell
  279. # [13:39] <shepazu> unless the boundaries of a country extend indefinitely upward...
  280. # [13:39] <MikeSmith> tim to hit the air brakes
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  284. # [14:37] <Dashiva> shepazu: You could always bring a DVD player from the surface, instead of trying to create a new one :P
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  289. # [15:33] <anne> 01:00:00 UTC
  290. # [15:33] <anne> there goes Europe
  291. # [15:34] <hsivonen> ?
  292. # [15:35] <anne> http://www.w3.org/mid/47D54508.5080805@w3.org
  293. # [15:35] <hsivonen> ah.
  294. # [15:36] <anne> i've probably done my 3 hours of test making already
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  296. # [15:40] <Dashiva> Nobody important lives in Europe anyway
  297. # [15:41] <krijnh> -_-
  298. # [15:42] <gsnedders> :|
  299. # [15:43] <anne> MikeSmith, heh, you didn't have to do that :)
  300. # [15:43] <anne> we want you to make tests!
  301. # [15:48] <MikeSmith> I need an personal intern
  302. # [15:49] <MikeSmith> hey intern, write a few hundred test cases please
  303. # [15:51] <MikeSmith> anne - seriously, I think it's actually more important to choose a time that allows, say, Philip, jgraham_, zcorpan, you to be involved in test-case discussion
  304. # [15:51] <MikeSmith> I said as much here earlier today
  305. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> issue-37?
  306. # [15:53] * trackbot-ng getting information on ISSUE-37
  307. # [15:53] <trackbot-ng> ISSUE-37 -- Integration of SVG and MathML into text/html -- RAISED
  308. # [15:53] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/37
  309. # [15:53] <anne> fair enough
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  311. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> jgraham_, great right-up
  312. # [15:54] <MikeSmith> "write-up", make that
  313. # [15:54] <anne> so even native speakers mix that up
  314. # [15:54] <anne> good to know
  315. # [15:55] <MikeSmith> mentally challenged native speakers like me at least
  316. # [15:55] <anne> hehe
  317. # [15:56] <MikeSmith> I guess I should say differently abled native speakers like me
  318. # [15:56] <MikeSmith> not sure what my different abilities are, though
  319. # [15:58] <MikeSmith> btw, for those who care about relative mailing-list volume:
  320. # [15:59] <MikeSmith> with some help from Gerald Oskoboiny today, I looked at what the highest-traffic W3C mailing lists are
  321. # [15:59] <MikeSmith> actually, not really with help
  322. # [15:59] <MikeSmith> Gerald did the work
  323. # [16:00] <MikeSmith> anyway, not surprisingly, public-html is in the top 3
  324. # [16:00] * Quits: DanC_lap (connolly@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  325. # [16:00] <Dashiva> What are the other two?
  326. # [16:00] <MikeSmith> highest is www-style
  327. # [16:00] <MikeSmith> no big surprise there
  328. # [16:01] <anne> what timeframe did you use?
  329. # [16:01] * anne wonders what the last one is
  330. # [16:01] <MikeSmith> just looking through the archives that shoe numbers for each month
  331. # [16:01] <anne> so all months are included?
  332. # [16:01] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/
  333. # [16:02] <anne> because public-html is on a declining line
  334. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> Gerald looked at just the last 30 days
  335. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> OWL WG list had more messages than public-html in January
  336. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> and 600+ messages in November
  337. # [16:03] <anne> we had 1773 in April last year :p
  338. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> I like the look of that number
  339. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> let's aim for 1776 for this April
  340. # [16:03] <anne> or 1337
  341. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> we shall call it "Tribute to America"
  342. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> oh yeah, 1337 way better
  343. # [16:03] <anne> heh
  344. # [16:04] <gsnedders> oh, and FWIW, I should make it to the TP this year
  345. # [16:04] <anne> we were close in May 2007
  346. # [16:04] <anne> 1307
  347. # [16:05] <MikeSmith> anyway, it definitely won't do to have a Semantic Web mailing list outdoing us in terms of volume
  348. # [16:05] <MikeSmith> so we need to do something to correct this
  349. # [16:05] <MikeSmith> I recommend using a variation of "Takahashi" presentation style for replies
  350. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> break replies into multiple messages, send them out in serial fashion
  351. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> heightens the suspense
  352. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> that's how Charles Dickens became famous
  353. # [16:07] <anne> did you take into account blog traffic on html5 and the WHATWG mailing list?
  354. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> despite his poor writing skills
  355. # [16:08] <anne> and all our other W3C mailing lists?
  356. # [16:08] <anne> that our approach is decentralized (with a centralized editor, mind you) should not put us at a disadvantage :)
  357. # [16:09] <gsnedders> why can we decentralize our editor?
  358. # [16:09] <MikeSmith> no, seriously, I was just looking at in the context of people saying that the traffic on public-html is excessively high
  359. # [16:09] <gsnedders> *can't
  360. # [16:09] <MikeSmith> and data does not seems to support it being excessive nor impossible to keep up with
  361. # [16:10] <MikeSmith> not relative to lists for other high-interest W3C work
  362. # [16:10] <MikeSmith> at least
  363. # [16:11] <MikeSmith> ..
  364. # [16:12] <MikeSmith> on other subjects of importance, it looks like we will be able to have the next WAF f2f in Dublin for sure
  365. # [16:13] <MikeSmith> which means less travel for me, yay-hay
  366. # [16:13] * anne won't be there
  367. # [16:13] <MikeSmith> anne - ?
  368. # [16:13] <MikeSmith> damn
  369. # [16:13] <MikeSmith> I thought you'd be at XTech
  370. # [16:14] <MikeSmith> you have a schedule conflict?
  371. # [16:14] <anne> I was planning to go there, yes :)
  372. # [16:14] <MikeSmith> hmm, if Turin in June would work better for you, maybe we should do Turin in June instead
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  375. # [16:18] <anne> MikeSmith, it's not that, it's that the meeting is for Widgets and I'm no longer doing that
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  377. # [16:20] <MikeSmith> ah yeah, I had forgotten it was for Widgets only
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  414. # [20:26] <aaronlev> anne: i need someone to poke holes in my draft for ARIA user agent best practices
  415. # [20:27] <aaronlev> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA_UA_Best_Practices
  416. # [20:27] <anne> I'd suggest Simon
  417. # [20:27] * anne looks
  418. # [20:28] <anne> hmm large :)
  419. # [20:28] * hsivonen looks
  420. # [20:31] <aaronlev> anne: simon can't get to it for a while
  421. # [20:31] <hsivonen> editorial: some list items are broken so that the first line is in the list item and the rest is in a paragraph that breaks the list
  422. # [20:32] <aaronlev> i see one place
  423. # [20:32] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@84.215.54.100) (Ping timeout)
  424. # [20:32] <hsivonen> two items under 11.3.1.1 HTML 5 Tabindex
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  426. # [20:35] <hsivonen> aaronlev: ID matching should be defined. I hope the matching is equivalent to getElementById
  427. # [20:35] <aaronlev> hsivonen: i use nsIContent::GetID()
  428. # [20:35] <aaronlev> which in HTML i think it just getElementById
  429. # [20:36] <aaronlev> but i don't know what other complexities are in there
  430. # [20:36] <aaronlev> i guess you can have a different id attribute technically
  431. # [20:36] <aaronlev> ?
  432. # [20:37] <hsivonen> in XML, yes
  433. # [20:37] <aaronlev> right
  434. # [20:37] <aaronlev> so in the future of ARIA can be applied to XML
  435. # [20:37] <aaronlev> then you'd want to do that
  436. # [20:37] <aaronlev> should we word it so it's future proofed
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  438. # [20:38] <aaronlev> if you want to edit the wiki feel free
  439. # [20:38] <aaronlev> anne: we still need info on how to expose this stuff via universal access
  440. # [20:38] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@88.91.109.123)
  441. # [20:38] <hsivonen> is Universal Access the OS X API?
  442. # [20:38] <aaronlev> hsivonen: yes
  443. # [20:39] <aaronlev> anne: and opera is taking the lead on that -- do you guys have any docs on how you're exposing ARIA?
  444. # [20:39] <hsivonen> aaronlev: it doesn't say how aria-foo=bar maps to a name-value pair
  445. # [20:39] <hsivonen> is the name foo or aria-foo or something else?
  446. # [20:40] <aaronlev> that should be under states an object properties
  447. # [20:40] <hsivonen> ah. ok
  448. # [20:40] <anne> aaronlev, no docs that I know of
  449. # [20:41] <aaronlev> anne: well then we can't yell at other user agent mfrs when they do it differently from you guys
  450. # [20:41] <anne> I'm afraid that other than "I'd like the syntax to be like this" I can't be of much help
  451. # [20:41] <aaronlev> anne: unless you want people to have to reverse engineer Opera's ARIA support
  452. # [20:41] <anne> It'd be best to ask Simon
  453. # [20:41] <aaronlev> k
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  455. # [20:41] <anne> for MS though it would be best to run their test cases in both Opera and MS
  456. # [20:42] <anne> that's what we do when we add new functionality anyway
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  458. # [20:43] <anne> aaronlev, the <iframe> stuff, is that also applicable to <embed> and <object>?
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  460. # [20:44] <hsivonen> aaronlev: "collect the name from the content subtrees pointed to by aria-labelledby" is not precise enough
  461. # [20:45] <hsivonen> does it mean the document-order concatenation of text (and CDATA) node children with runs of one or more whitespace characters replaced with a single space?
  462. # [20:45] <hsivonen> (oh it does say depth first)
  463. # [20:46] <hsivonen> &lttitle> typo
  464. # [20:47] <aaronlev> hsivonen: it's described in the next list below that one
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  467. # [20:48] <hsivonen> aaronlev: ah. ok. (meta comment: the doc doesn't que the reader for subsequent definitions)
  468. # [20:48] <aaronlev> i just fixed it in that one case
  469. # [20:48] <aaronlev> are there others?
  470. # [20:49] <hsivonen> aaronlev: the name-value thing
  471. # [20:50] <aaronlev> ok
  472. # [20:50] <aaronlev> hsivonen: can you suggest some text for the ID matching thing?
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  474. # [20:51] <hsivonen> aaronlev: something along the lines that an ID matches the element that is returned by getElementById with the ID as an argument
  475. # [20:51] <hsivonen> assuming that the API you are using indeed matches gEBI
  476. # [20:51] <aaronlev> should we allow ARIA to be used with general XML?
  477. # [20:52] <aaronlev> and goes getElementById use the ID attribute defined by the XML?
  478. # [20:52] <anne> getElementById does ID based matching
  479. # [20:52] <anne> so yes
  480. # [20:52] <anne> I'm not sure if ARIA should be used with general XML...
  481. # [20:52] <aaronlev> what's the argument against it
  482. # [20:53] <aaronlev> why bother restricting it
  483. # [20:55] <anne> proprietary markup shouldn't be send over the wire
  484. # [20:55] <hsivonen> I wouldn't restrict it
  485. # [20:55] <anne> http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1064828134&count=1
  486. # [20:56] <hsivonen> aaronlev: doesn't aria-templateid couple a site and an AT?
  487. # [20:56] <hsivonen> is that a good idea?
  488. # [20:57] <aaronlev> hsivonen: i'm asking pfwg for clarification, it seems bad to me so far
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  490. # [20:57] <aaronlev> apparently it happened when i wasn't there
  491. # [20:57] <aaronlev> i don't see any implementation for it
  492. # [20:57] <aaronlev> but al is saying that it's not AT dependent
  493. # [20:57] <Dashiva> Why is there a picture of bin laden next to that post... I wonder what keyword pick that out
  494. # [20:57] <aaronlev> it's more of an ID than a pointer to a script
  495. # [20:57] <aaronlev> hsivonen: which is weird since the def says it's a URI
  496. # [20:58] <hsivonen> URIs-as-identifiers strikes again
  497. # [20:58] <aaronlev> anne: but if XBL gets impl'd in browsers proprietary market would be fine right?
  498. # [20:58] <aaronlev> hsivonen: i guess that's what it is
  499. # [20:58] <aaronlev> i don't see the need
  500. # [20:59] <aaronlev> i think the need should be proven
  501. # [20:59] <anne> aaronlev, I don't think so...
  502. # [20:59] <hsivonen> does ATK reuse MSAA interface names for AccessibleValue etc?
  503. # [20:59] <anne> XBL is an optional language
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  506. # [21:00] <aaronlev> it is now but because not all the major browsers support it
  507. # [21:00] <aaronlev> that could change
  508. # [21:00] <hsivonen> CSS is optional only in theory
  509. # [21:00] <aaronlev> my opinion is that the web is barely managing right now, doing everything in HTML and JS
  510. # [21:00] <aaronlev> and that some better way of doing custom widget elements will be needed at some pt
  511. # [21:01] <aaronlev> i just don't see the need to restrict ARIA
  512. # [21:01] <aaronlev> if people don't think it's a good idea to send XML fine, but why stop ARIA from being used if they do
  513. # [21:01] <aaronlev> mozilla doesn't check the namespace of the element anymore, when ARIA is used
  514. # [21:02] <anne> that sounds like a violation of ARIA
  515. # [21:02] <anne> but i don't feel strongly about that
  516. # [21:03] <aaronlev> is you show me where
  517. # [21:03] <aaronlev> s/is/if
  518. # [21:03] <aaronlev> that will help
  519. # [21:03] <hsivonen> I think it's reasonable to implement it without checking the namespace
  520. # [21:03] <hsivonen> anne: it's good for forward compat
  521. # [21:03] <anne> as i said, i don't care
  522. # [21:03] <aaronlev> ok
  523. # [21:03] <hsivonen> anne: if FooML magically becomes part of the Web platform, ARIA works
  524. # [21:03] <anne> simon told me they added a note to the spec that said it was not allowed or something
  525. # [21:04] <aaronlev> anne: i didn't see that note
  526. # [21:04] <anne> we should've done that for id=
  527. # [21:04] <aaronlev> i think simon means his spec
  528. # [21:04] <anne> and class=
  529. # [21:04] <aaronlev> not the w3.org spec
  530. # [21:04] <anne> no, I don't think so
  531. # [21:05] <hsivonen> aaronlev: I don't have further comments on the document. It looks good, but I don't know the APIs well enough to know for sure.
  532. # [21:05] <aaronlev> hsivonen: that's fine great thanks
  533. # [21:05] <aaronlev> hsivonen: btw another forward compat feature i'm working on is to expose general aria- attributes
  534. # [21:05] <aaronlev> just to pass them through if we don't know anything about them
  535. # [21:06] <anne> from the ARIA spec
  536. # [21:06] <anne> "User agents MUST NOT implement ARIA support in such a manner that they recognize the ARIA attributes in any namespace"
  537. # [21:06] <aaronlev> that will allow some freedom to experiment outside of fire vox and DOM-based screen readers
  538. # [21:06] <aaronlev> ok
  539. # [21:06] <anne> not sure what that statement means though
  540. # [21:06] <aaronlev> i think it means what you said
  541. # [21:06] <anne> i guess so
  542. # [21:07] <anne> that's what simon said anyway
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  559. # [22:58] * Quits: jgraham (james@81.86.216.20) (Quit: I get eaten by the worms)
  560. # [22:59] * Joins: aroben (aroben@71.58.69.205)
  561. # [23:00] * Quits: DanC_lap (connolly@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  562. # [23:00] * Joins: jgraham (james@81.86.216.20)
  563. # [23:21] * Quits: jgraham (james@81.86.216.20) (Quit: I get eaten by the worms)
  564. # [23:23] * Quits: matt (matt@128.30.52.30) (Quit: matt)
  565. # [23:27] * Joins: jgraham (james@81.86.216.20)
  566. # [23:30] * Quits: jgraham (james@81.86.216.20) (Quit: I get eaten by the worms)
  567. # [23:48] * Joins: thorn (David_Lind@24.147.187.203)
  568. # Session Close: Tue Mar 11 00:00:00 2008

The end :)