/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-04-02 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 02 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:00] <jgraham_> shepazu: what do you mean "processing model"?
  4. # [00:01] <shepazu> uhhhhh, where?
  5. # [00:01] <jgraham_> (does it include below-DOM latyers or just above-DOM layers?)
  6. # [00:01] <shepazu> both
  7. # [00:01] <jgraham_> "this assumes that the processing model of SVG is the purview of the HTML WG"
  8. # [00:01] <shepazu> either
  9. # [00:02] <jgraham_> I agree about the above-DOM layers but predictably disagree about the below-DOM layers
  10. # [00:02] <shepazu> making SVG content that explicitly doesn't run in SVG UAs seems extremely problematic to me
  11. # [00:02] <jgraham_> (i.e. parsing)
  12. # [00:02] <shepazu> yes, that's predictable :)
  13. # [00:02] <hsivonen> shepazu: SVG's below-DOM processing has already been outsourced
  14. # [00:03] <shepazu> ok, I've stated my thoughts on this, I'm not goign to ram my head into that wall again right now :)
  15. # [00:04] <jgraham_> Yeah, I guess I don' really have anything novel to say
  16. # [00:04] <jgraham_> But I wish languages were less keen to define themselves by their serialization rather than by their abstract representation
  17. # [00:05] <hsivonen> the novel point of view I have to say is: EXI
  18. # [00:05] <jgraham_> s/abstract representation/information structure/
  19. # [00:07] <Philip> X3D mostly works like that, with a 'Classic VRML' serialisation and an XML serialisation (and a compressed binary-XML serialisation)
  20. # [00:08] <shepazu> I'm not opposed to a different serialization, actually, I just don't think that the deployment strategy is sound
  21. # [00:08] <Philip> (and the main specs are independent of the serialisation, and other specs just define the mapping to each syntax)
  22. # [00:08] <jgraham_> shepazu: I'm not sure I follow
  23. # [00:09] <Philip> (though the XML-serialisation spec seems kind of badly written and mixes it all up again)
  24. # [00:09] <jgraham_> (specifically about the deployment strategy)
  25. # [00:10] <shepazu> jgraham_: I'd be happy to discuss it again sometime (you could reread my emails but might have to search around a bit), but right now I'm exhausted
  26. # [00:11] <jgraham_> shepazu: No problem.
  27. # [00:11] * Philip wonders if "happy" is the right term
  28. # [00:12] <shepazu> Philip: for some value of "happy"
  29. # [00:12] <shepazu> :)
  30. # [00:12] * jgraham_ apologies if he is being tiresome :)
  31. # [00:12] * Quits: hober (ted@68.101.220.172) (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs))
  32. # [00:13] <shepazu> jgraham_, not at all
  33. # [00:14] * Parts: DanC (connolly@128.30.52.30) (Leaving)
  34. # [00:25] <shepazu> jgraham_, Philip, actually, I've been told that there's been a recent change of policy, and the charter *is* public: http://www.w3.org/2007/11/SVG_rechartering/SVG-WG-charter (sorry, I was told otherwise before)
  35. # [00:26] <shepazu> (like, recent as in a couple of years, not the last 20 minutes :) )
  36. # [00:33] * Joins: heycam (cam@130.194.72.84)
  37. # [00:36] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.255.108.132)
  38. # [00:41] * Joins: mjs_ (mjs@17.203.14.182)
  39. # [00:43] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.255.108.132) (Ping timeout)
  40. # [00:43] <jgraham_> shepazu: Interesting. So you are basically creating a second public group that you will solicit for input, but exclude from formal decisions/discussions
  41. # [00:45] <shepazu> jgraham_: I guess you could look at it that way, but we are also planning on working completely in public and taking input directly from the public... the IG is more a way to create focus groups for particular use cases and requirements
  42. # [00:47] <shepazu> it's not that they will be excluded, but rather than they don't directly make decisions... so, think of designers who want a certain feature, but don't necessarily know how to do the underpinnings, they would say, "we have talked and decided we need megagradients", and the WG would figure out how to fulfill that requirement
  43. # [00:47] <shepazu> does that make sense
  44. # [00:47] <shepazu> ?
  45. # [00:48] <shepazu> it's a way to bring a larger group into direct discussion and focused dialog with the SVG WG
  46. # [00:48] <shepazu> also, it's intended to have less commitment, not 2 telcons a week
  47. # [00:48] <jgraham_> shepazu: Yeah, for that group of people it does make sense
  48. # [00:49] <shepazu> sort of on an as-needed basis
  49. # [00:49] <shepazu> it's actually kinda like the HTML WG in its goal
  50. # [00:49] <shepazu> just not in its structure
  51. # [00:49] <jgraham_> But, in the HTMLWG there is a large group of people who do technical work but are not Members
  52. # [00:50] <shepazu> jgraham_, yeah and that has been a bit of a hassle :)
  53. # [00:50] <jgraham_> They get to vote and attend telecons but are not required to
  54. # [00:50] <jgraham_> shepazu: Depends on your point of view :)
  55. # [00:50] * Joins: timbl__ (timbl@128.30.5.160)
  56. # [00:50] * Quits: timbl__ (timbl@128.30.5.160) (Quit: timbl__)
  57. # [00:50] <shepazu> also, the IG will hopefully help with tasks like test suites and such
  58. # [00:51] <jgraham_> From my point of view the fact that I can contribute without needing to be a Member is A Good Thing
  59. # [00:51] <shepazu> right, and the IG participants won't have to be members
  60. # [00:52] <shepazu> and even if you aren't part of the WG or IG, you can contribute to discussions
  61. # [00:52] <shepazu> it's all going to be public
  62. # [00:53] <jgraham_> shepazu: It certainly seems better than many working groups but I guess if people feel like all the important decisions are made at telecons or in formal votes that they can' participate in, they could become disenfranchised
  63. # [00:53] <jgraham_> s/can'/can't/
  64. # [00:53] <shepazu> well, that's certainly not our goal, obviously :D
  65. # [00:54] <shepazu> the SVG WG doesn't normally vote, by the way
  66. # [00:54] <jgraham_> I'm not suggesting it is, only that your charter doesn't prevent it
  67. # [00:54] <shepazu> I've never been in an SVG WG poll
  68. # [00:54] <shepazu> charters can't capture every nuance, naturally
  69. # [00:55] <shepazu> we normally just discuss things, argue a bit, and come to a mutually agreeable conclusion based on the data, as a group
  70. # [00:56] <jgraham_> In the new scheme is that the small Member group or the larger Interest Group
  71. # [00:56] <shepazu> hm?
  72. # [00:56] <jgraham_> The group that has to mutually agree
  73. # [00:57] <shepazu> oh, well, we haven't quite worked out what the formal relationship of the IG to the WG is... but I imagine the WG will be making the decisions based on feedback from the IG and the public
  74. # [00:58] <shepazu> pretty much as happens in HTML now, but with a group of editors rather than a single editor
  75. # [00:58] * Joins: anne (annevk@198.36.194.3)
  76. # [00:58] <jgraham_> It will be interesting to see how that pans out.
  77. # [00:58] <shepazu> I agree :)
  78. # [01:00] <shepazu> I imagine that the IG will be a bit of a coordination hassle to start up, but I hope it will be worth it... we're trying to get more non-technical designers involved, which is rather different than the HTML WG, whose members are all pretty technically savvy... but I think the SVG WG has a lot to learn about the world of design realities outside implementations
  79. # [01:00] <shepazu> I don't think that's quite the world the HTML WG is in, maybe more like the CSS WG
  80. # [01:01] <shepazu> sort of a cross between the 2, maybe
  81. # [01:01] <shepazu> SVG is an odd bird :)
  82. # [01:01] <shepazu> many designers (and tools) don't realize how important document structure can be, they just look at the surface result
  83. # [01:04] <shepazu> sorta like how HTML is better if you don't use tables, because it's got separation of style and content, but many designers just want a certain layout and don't care about how it's achieved
  84. # [01:04] <shepazu> but on the other hand, designers shouldn't have to care
  85. # [01:05] * shepazu blathers on
  86. # [01:07] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Quit: tlr)
  87. # [01:07] * jgraham_ should go to sleep
  88. # [01:07] * shepazu too
  89. # [01:07] <jgraham_> But not because of shepazu ;)
  90. # [01:07] <shepazu> lol
  91. # [01:07] <jgraham_> goodnight
  92. # [01:07] <shepazu> nn
  93. # [01:13] * Philip was thinking of using tables for layout when he next designs a site
  94. # [01:14] <Philip> They still seem to be the most effective way of achieving the goal of making a site look a certain way
  95. # [01:18] <shepazu> Philip: dude, I'm with you... it frustrates me that CSS just can't do some very simple tasks in an easy way
  96. # [01:18] <shepazu> might not be CSS's fault, but the implementations, but the effect is the same
  97. # [01:19] <anne> no, CSS lacks a better box model
  98. # [01:19] <shepazu> I'm talking 2, 3 columns, without thinking about it
  99. # [01:19] <shepazu> anne: is there a model out there that might work?
  100. # [01:20] <shepazu> that is, do you know of some way it could be improved?
  101. # [01:20] <Philip> If you're looking for "a better box model", you're just thinking inside the box
  102. # [01:20] * shepazu is not enough of a CSS guru to know
  103. # [01:21] <shepazu> Philip mysteriously gets slapped with a squid
  104. # [01:21] <mjs_> CSS can do tables
  105. # [01:21] * mjs_ is now known as mjs
  106. # [01:22] <shepazu> mjs: that was my impression... is it widely implemented?
  107. # [01:22] <Philip> Boxes are merely legacy - we should be able to do triangles and hexagons and all sorts of other shapes
  108. # [01:22] <mjs> shepazu: Safari, Firefox and Opera have had it for some time, and IE8b1 has CSS tables
  109. # [01:22] <shepazu> Philip: then you run into all sorts of packing issues
  110. # [01:22] <shepazu> mjs: that's great!
  111. # [01:22] <mjs> I would like to be able to use bezier paths in various ways in CSS
  112. # [01:22] <mjs> clip to path, flow text inside path, text along path
  113. # [01:23] <anne> shepazu, flexbox maybe
  114. # [01:23] <mjs> border defined by path
  115. # [01:23] <shepazu> anne: yes, I'd thought similarly
  116. # [01:23] <mjs> (or outline?)
  117. # [01:23] <Philip> mjs: They can't do colspan/rowspan, and it's really awkward and ugly to write code using CSS tables - it's better to just write <table> rather than <div class="table">
  118. # [01:23] <shepazu> heycam's done interesting constraints work
  119. # [01:24] <shepazu> regarding layout
  120. # [01:24] <shepazu> Philip: XBL2 might help there
  121. # [01:24] <Philip> shepazu: We can avoid packing issues by just standardising on hexagons
  122. # [01:25] <Philip> They pack much more efficiently than squares do
  123. # [01:25] * Joins: mjs_ (mjs@17.255.108.132)
  124. # [01:25] <shepazu> and instead of the Web we have the Hive?
  125. # [01:25] <Philip> I don't understand why computers use square pixels, when hexagons would allow much higher detail images with the same number of pixels
  126. # [01:26] * shepazu thinks about packets being much more like bees than spiders....
  127. # [01:26] <Philip> shepazu: I imagine XBL2 would make it even more abstract and impossible to understand what's going on
  128. # [01:26] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.203.14.182) (Ping timeout)
  129. # [01:27] <shepazu> Philip: you're thinking like a person who wants to understand what's going on
  130. # [01:27] * shepazu calls the CIA
  131. # [01:27] * Joins: aaronlev (chatzilla@71.243.95.215)
  132. # [01:27] <shepazu> aaronlev!
  133. # [01:28] <Philip> I already don't like how CSS creates such a huge distance between the thing you want to change (like the color of a piece of text) and the thing you actually have to change (like some CSS file)
  134. # [01:28] * Quits: heycam (cam@130.194.72.84) (Ping timeout)
  135. # [01:28] <anne> CSS3 will have colspan/rowspan most likely
  136. # [01:28] <anne> Philip, there's a style= attribute
  137. # [01:28] <aaronlev> hi shepazu :)
  138. # [01:28] <shepazu> Philip: that's a tricky design issue... SVG faces that, and there are plusses and minuses
  139. # [01:29] <shepazu> pluses?
  140. # [01:29] <shepazu> how's accessible tricks, aaronlev?
  141. # [01:29] <mjs_> hi aaronlev
  142. # [01:29] * mjs_ is now known as mjs
  143. # [01:29] <aaronlev> hi mjs
  144. # [01:29] <shepazu> mjs: what's with your network?
  145. # [01:30] <Philip> anne: That doesn't help when I want a change to apply to all the other headings in the page too
  146. # [01:31] <shepazu> Philip: you can always use inline stylesheets....
  147. # [01:31] <anne> use <style>
  148. # [01:32] * shepazu finds it difficult to believe he's been put in the position of advocating and defending CSS :)
  149. # [01:32] <Philip> That doesn't help when I'm editing the bottom of a document and some <style> from several screens earlier is making my text go all funny
  150. # [01:33] <Philip> (and I can't work out what's going wrong because it's screens away and I can't remember everything)
  151. # [01:33] <mjs> shepazu: bouncy
  152. # [01:33] * shepazu mutters "splitscreen" and "tabs"
  153. # [01:33] <Philip> Notepad can't do tabs :-(
  154. # [01:33] <shepazu> mjs, I was thinking yoyofi
  155. # [01:33] <shepazu> textpad!!!!!!!!
  156. # [01:34] <aaronlev> shepazu: I'll have to catch up with you later, gotta get ready for a trip
  157. # [01:34] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@71.243.95.215) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.81 [Firefox 3.0b5pre/2008032505])
  158. # [01:34] <Philip> Also text editors don't help when editing a whole site's code through a <textarea>
  159. # [01:34] * Joins: heycam (cam@130.194.72.84)
  160. # [01:35] <shepazu> welll... ok, but hopefully we'll be solving that, by enabling better webapps
  161. # [01:35] <anne> Philip, use word or something
  162. # [01:35] <anne> or some feature of your editor
  163. # [01:36] * Joins: Mark1 (Mark_Baker@209.161.202.187)
  164. # [01:36] <shepazu> Philip: use Outlook Express to write your HTML
  165. # [01:36] <shepazu> email it to your blog :)
  166. # [01:36] <Philip> shepazu: Hmm, reminds me of rms's comment about how he browses the web
  167. # [01:37] <shepazu> Philip, yes :)
  168. # [01:37] <shepazu> I'm sure the guy is brilliant...
  169. # [01:37] * Quits: MarkB (Mark_Baker@209.161.202.187) (Ping timeout)
  170. # [01:37] <shepazu> but...
  171. # [01:37] * Philip tries to find the reference
  172. # [01:37] <shepazu> that's wrong
  173. # [01:38] <Philip> http://lwn.net/Articles/262570/ - aha
  174. # [01:38] <shepazu> http://lwn.net/Articles/262570/
  175. # [01:38] <shepazu> oh :(
  176. # [01:39] <shepazu> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.os.openbsd.misc/134252
  177. # [01:40] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.255.108.132) (Quit: mjs)
  178. # [01:41] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.255.108.132)
  179. # [01:41] * Quits: ChrisWilson (cwilso@131.107.0.73) (Ping timeout)
  180. # [01:46] * Joins: mjs_ (mjs@17.255.108.132)
  181. # [01:46] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.255.108.132) (Connection reset by peer)
  182. # [01:47] * Joins: ChrisWilson (cwilso@131.107.0.103)
  183. # [01:50] * mjs_ is now known as mjs
  184. # [01:51] * Quits: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  185. # [01:58] * Joins: mjs_ (mjs@17.203.14.182)
  186. # [02:01] * Parts: anne (annevk@198.36.194.3)
  187. # [02:01] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.255.108.132) (Ping timeout)
  188. # [02:07] * Joins: timbl (timbl@72.93.213.130)
  189. # [02:07] * Parts: timbl (timbl@72.93.213.130)
  190. # [02:09] * Joins: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.34.18)
  191. # [02:10] * Quits: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.34.18) (Quit: Laura)
  192. # [02:25] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.255.108.132)
  193. # [02:27] * Quits: gavin (gavin@63.245.208.169) (Ping timeout)
  194. # [02:28] * Quits: mjs_ (mjs@17.203.14.182) (Ping timeout)
  195. # [02:28] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241) (Ping timeout)
  196. # [02:28] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  197. # [02:29] * Joins: gavin (gavin@63.245.208.169)
  198. # [02:50] * Quits: adele (adele@17.203.14.240) (Ping timeout)
  199. # [03:00] * Joins: tH (Rob@87.102.14.104)
  200. # [03:17] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Less talk, more pimp walk.)
  201. # [03:44] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.255.108.132) (Quit: mjs)
  202. # [03:44] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  203. # [03:45] * Joins: Thezilch (fuz007@76.170.20.154)
  204. # [03:54] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.255.108.132)
  205. # [04:00] * Joins: mjs_ (mjs@17.203.14.182)
  206. # [04:01] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.255.108.132) (Ping timeout)
  207. # [04:04] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.255.108.132)
  208. # [04:06] * Quits: mjs_ (mjs@17.203.14.182) (Ping timeout)
  209. # [04:11] * Joins: mjs_ (mjs@17.203.14.182)
  210. # [04:12] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Less talk, more pimp walk.)
  211. # [04:12] * Quits: tH (Rob@87.102.14.104) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.81-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508])
  212. # [04:13] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.255.108.132) (Ping timeout)
  213. # [04:30] * Quits: mjs_ (mjs@17.203.14.182) (Quit: mjs_)
  214. # [04:45] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  215. # [05:01] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  216. # [05:01] * Joins: adele (adele@67.170.232.64)
  217. # [05:02] * Quits: heycam (cam@130.194.72.84) (Ping timeout)
  218. # [05:12] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@99.253.193.147) (Ping timeout)
  219. # [05:17] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@99.253.193.147)
  220. # [05:26] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@67.160.251.228)
  221. # [05:50] * Joins: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145)
  222. # [06:58] * dbaron realizes the message he just replied to was on www-html, not www-style
  223. # [06:58] <dbaron> well, hopefully it's end-of-thread anyway, so no point replying to redirect the conversation
  224. # [07:09] <shepazu> dbaron, how'd the CSS F2F go?
  225. # [07:12] <dbaron> shepazu, fine
  226. # [07:12] <shepazu> good to hear, hope the rechartering goes as you'd hoped
  227. # [07:13] * Quits: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145) (Quit: mjs)
  228. # [07:28] * Joins: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145)
  229. # [07:41] * Joins: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@69.140.40.140)
  230. # [07:49] * Quits: adele (adele@67.170.232.64) (Quit: adele)
  231. # [08:24] * Quits: Shunsuke (Shunsuke@123.176.107.50) (Connection reset by peer)
  232. # [08:26] * Joins: Shunsuke (Shunsuke@123.176.107.50)
  233. # [08:49] * Quits: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@69.140.40.140) (Quit: Leaving)
  234. # [09:01] * Joins: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167)
  235. # [09:09] * Joins: paullewis (paullewis@82.242.109.217)
  236. # [09:11] * Quits: Thezilch (fuz007@76.170.20.154) (Ping timeout)
  237. # [09:40] * Joins: mjs_ (mjs@64.81.48.145)
  238. # [09:40] * Quits: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145) (Connection reset by peer)
  239. # [09:51] * Quits: mjs_ (mjs@64.81.48.145) (Ping timeout)
  240. # [09:51] * Joins: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38)
  241. # [09:52] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@67.160.251.228) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  242. # [09:53] * Joins: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145)
  243. # [10:34] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30)
  244. # [10:41] * Joins: jgraham (james@81.86.216.20)
  245. # [11:04] * Quits: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145) (Quit: mjs)
  246. # [11:04] * Joins: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145)
  247. # [11:11] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@88.91.103.11) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  248. # [11:17] * Joins: zcorpan (zcorpan@88.131.66.80)
  249. # [11:22] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22)
  250. # [11:57] * Joins: deane (dean@202.74.221.245)
  251. # [11:58] * Joins: laplink (link@193.157.66.93)
  252. # [12:27] * Parts: chaals (chaals@213.236.208.22)
  253. # [13:00] * Quits: deane (dean@202.74.221.245) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.81 [Firefox 3.0b4/2008030714])
  254. # [13:04] * Joins: myakura (myakura@122.29.8.215)
  255. # [13:16] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Less talk, more pimp walk.)
  256. # [13:18] * Joins: matt (matt@128.30.52.30)
  257. # [13:29] * Joins: tH (Rob@87.102.14.104)
  258. # [13:56] * Quits: matt (matt@128.30.52.30) (Quit: matt)
  259. # [15:19] * Joins: deane (dean@202.74.214.186)
  260. # [15:19] * Quits: myakura (myakura@122.29.8.215) (Ping timeout)
  261. # [15:25] * Joins: matt (matt@128.30.52.30)
  262. # [15:31] * Joins: chaals (chaals@213.236.208.22)
  263. # [15:42] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) (Quit: Leaving)
  264. # [15:42] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22)
  265. # [15:43] * Joins: anne (annevk@77.163.243.203)
  266. # [15:45] * Joins: myakura (myakura@122.29.8.215)
  267. # [15:51] * Quits: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167) (Ping timeout)
  268. # [16:05] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  269. # [16:16] * Quits: jgraham (james@81.86.216.20) (Quit: I get eaten by the worms)
  270. # [16:20] * Joins: aroben (aroben@71.58.57.150)
  271. # [16:23] * Joins: jgraham (james@81.86.216.20)
  272. # [16:33] * Joins: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167)
  273. # [16:48] * Quits: jgraham (james@81.86.216.20) (Quit: I get eaten by the worms)
  274. # [16:58] * Quits: myakura (myakura@122.29.8.215) (Quit: Leaving...)
  275. # [17:08] * Joins: jgraham (james@81.86.216.20)
  276. # [17:11] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  277. # [17:13] * Quits: jgraham (james@81.86.216.20) (Quit: I get eaten by the worms)
  278. # [17:43] * Joins: jgraham (james@81.86.216.20)
  279. # [17:47] * Quits: deane (dean@202.74.214.186) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.81 [Firefox 3.0b4/2008030714])
  280. # [17:58] * Quits: zcorpan (zcorpan@88.131.66.80) (Ping timeout)
  281. # [18:03] * Joins: DanC (connolly@128.30.52.30)
  282. # [18:03] * DanC struggles to clear his desk to prepare this week's agenda
  283. # [18:11] * Quits: chaals (chaals@213.236.208.22) (Client exited)
  284. # [18:11] * Joins: chaals (chaals@213.236.208.22)
  285. # [18:12] * Quits: chaals (chaals@213.236.208.22) (Client exited)
  286. # [18:12] * Joins: chaals (chaals@213.236.208.22)
  287. # [18:13] * Quits: chaals (chaals@213.236.208.22) (Client exited)
  288. # [18:13] * Joins: chaals (chaals@213.236.208.22)
  289. # [18:16] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@88.91.103.11)
  290. # [18:40] * Joins: adele (adele@17.203.14.240)
  291. # [18:40] * Quits: adele (adele@17.203.14.240) (Client exited)
  292. # [18:40] * Joins: adele (adele@17.203.14.240)
  293. # [18:45] * Quits: jgraham (james@81.86.216.20) (Quit: I get eaten by the worms)
  294. # [18:47] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  295. # [19:14] * Joins: jgraham (james@81.86.216.20)
  296. # [19:25] * Joins: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38)
  297. # [19:26] * Quits: jgraham (james@81.86.216.20) (Quit: I get eaten by the worms)
  298. # [19:31] * Quits: chaals (chaals@213.236.208.22) (Client exited)
  299. # [19:32] * Joins: chaals (chaals@213.236.208.22)
  300. # [19:33] * Joins: jgraham (james@81.86.216.20)
  301. # [19:36] * Quits: jgraham (james@81.86.216.20) (Quit: I get eaten by the worms)
  302. # [19:43] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Quit: tlr)
  303. # [19:56] * Quits: chaals (chaals@213.236.208.22) (Quit: chaals)
  304. # [20:01] * Joins: mjs_ (mjs@64.81.48.145)
  305. # [20:01] * Quits: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145) (Connection reset by peer)
  306. # [20:12] * Joins: jgraham (james@81.86.216.20)
  307. # [20:15] * Quits: mjs_ (mjs@64.81.48.145) (Quit: mjs_)
  308. # [20:19] * Joins: hober (ted@68.101.220.172)
  309. # [20:36] * aroben is now known as aroben|away
  310. # [20:46] * Quits: adele (adele@17.203.14.240) (Quit: adele)
  311. # [20:46] * Joins: adele (adele@17.203.14.240)
  312. # [21:03] * Joins: Navar1 (Navarr@76.254.115.188)
  313. # [21:04] * Quits: Navarr (Navarr@76.254.115.188) (Ping timeout)
  314. # [21:08] * Quits: jgraham_ (jgraham@81.86.216.20) (Ping timeout)
  315. # [21:08] * Quits: jgraham (james@81.86.216.20) (Ping timeout)
  316. # [21:19] * Joins: jgraham (james@81.86.215.223)
  317. # [21:20] * Joins: jgraham_ (jgraham@81.86.215.223)
  318. # [21:28] * aroben|away is now known as aroben
  319. # [21:39] * Joins: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@129.2.175.74)
  320. # [21:45] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  321. # [21:48] * Quits: DanC (connolly@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
  322. # [21:51] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.203.14.182)
  323. # [22:07] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Ping timeout)
  324. # [22:35] * Quits: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@129.2.175.74) (Quit: Leaving)
  325. # [23:18] * Joins: adele_ (adele@17.203.14.240)
  326. # [23:18] * Quits: adele (adele@17.203.14.240) (Connection reset by peer)
  327. # [23:37] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@88.91.103.11) (Quit: Leaving)
  328. # [23:37] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@88.91.103.11)
  329. # [23:37] <Lachy> It's nice to finally see some discussion on the forms-tf mailing list
  330. # [23:40] <Lachy> It's interesting our Gregory has asked for the group to be dissolved and rechartered, yet he (and everyone else) failed to give any feedback at all during the chartering process
  331. # [23:40] <Lachy> s/our/that/
  332. # [23:40] * Joins: heycam (cam@130.194.72.84)
  333. # [23:41] <Lachy> I'm also wondering why John Boyer has posted to the TF list, since he is not even a member of it
  334. # [23:43] <Hixie> you should submit the wf2 work in the same way they're sumbitting their work
  335. # [23:43] <Hixie> and ask for review as well
  336. # [23:45] <anne> the TF actually resolved during the telcon that technical work was out of scope
  337. # [23:45] <anne> but it wasn't that formal
  338. # [23:46] <mjs> our TF charter pretty clearly makes technical work out of scope
  339. # [23:46] <mjs> at least, specific syntax proposals
  340. # [23:46] <Hixie> well my understanding is that john just asked for feedback
  341. # [23:46] <Hixie> which is fine
  342. # [23:47] <Hixie> it's not part of the tf's work
  343. # [23:47] <Hixie> it's just asking for feedback on forms wg work
  344. # [23:47] <mjs> yeah, I offered to give feedback as an individual
  345. # [23:47] <hsivonen> is the specific proprosal the one email on the www-forms list that gives a couple of syntax examples without thorough processing requirements?
  346. # [23:47] <mjs> however, his follow-up emails make it sound like he wants the TF to mandate that the HTML WG adopt his syntax
  347. # [23:49] <mjs> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2008Apr/0005.html
  348. # [23:50] <mjs> "Also, I think the guidelines can indeed suggest specific vocabulary to the HTML and Forms WGs."
  349. # [23:50] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@217.44.37.113) (Quit: Partying in teh intarwebs)
  350. # [23:51] <hsivonen> and "I think if you guys review what's been done so far, it will be easy to glean some really tight guidelines."
  351. # [23:53] * Quits: heycam (cam@130.194.72.84) (Ping timeout)
  352. # [23:54] * Quits: jgraham (james@81.86.215.223) (Quit: I get eaten by the worms)
  353. # [23:54] * Quits: tH (Rob@87.102.14.104) (Ping timeout)
  354. # [23:55] <Lachy> mjs, what did you mean by this? "I an uncomfortable a non-member of the TF trying to push us to do off-charter work."
  355. # [23:55] <mjs> isn't John a non-member of the TF?
  356. # [23:55] <Lachy> no, he's not
  357. # [23:55] <mjs> or am I smoking crack?
  358. # [23:55] <mjs> he's a TF member?
  359. # [23:55] <mjs> when did that change?
  360. # [23:56] <Lachy> just the first part of the sentence doesn't make sense
  361. # [23:56] <Lachy> he was never a member
  362. # [23:56] <mjs> uncomfortable *with*
  363. # [23:56] <mjs> "I am uncomfortable with"
  364. # [23:56] <Lachy> ok
  365. # Session Close: Thu Apr 03 00:00:00 2008

The end :)