/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-04-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Apr 17 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  7. # [00:17] <chaals> danc, I am in Madrid
  8. # [00:17] <chaals> going to Chna on saturday.
  9. # [00:17] <chaals> and yeah, I can attend the telcon.
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  16. # [00:37] <chaals> DanC, yes, I can be on the call.
  17. # [00:42] <DanC> ah. good.
  18. # [00:44] * chaals remembers he needs to charge a lot of phones
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  27. # [01:36] <Philip> http://www.coalitionforjustice.net - I think they're actually using alt correctly there
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  29. # [01:41] <Hixie> yes they are
  30. # [01:42] <Hixie> how sad
  31. # [01:42] <Hixie> :-)
  32. # [01:44] * Philip wonders if they did that for accessibility or for search engines
  33. # [02:12] <Philip> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Apr/att-0051/IMG_0001.png - hooray for mobile browsers
  34. # [02:16] <Philip> Even my ancient phone's useless browser is better than that - it gets one and a half green squares and four red and one FAIL
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  37. # [02:21] <Philip> (User-Agent is "SonyEricssonT630/R401 Profile/MIDP-1.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.0" - I've got no idea what the browser is...)
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  112. # [15:27] <MikeSmith> aaronlev, hei
  113. # [15:27] <MikeSmith> saw your ping in the log
  114. # [15:27] <MikeSmith> not sure if or how I should respond to Glen on that
  115. # [15:28] <aaronlev> MikeSmith: ask him if he thinks the 100 character rule is good or whether something else would be more sensible
  116. # [15:29] <aaronlev> if people think it's a bad rule because of XXX he would be a good person to hear that concern and come up with an alternative
  117. # [15:29] <aaronlev> or tell you oif another idea is better
  118. # [15:30] <Philip> http://philip.html5.org/data/alt-lengths.svg - quite a few people use longer alts than that
  119. # [15:32] <MikeSmith> aaronlev, OK
  120. # [15:33] <MikeSmith> Philip, thanks
  121. # [15:41] <MikeSmith> Philip, so what exactly does this graph tell me? For example, what does it tell me about the case of number of characters it alt text is 32?
  122. # [15:41] <anne> oh, more TAG ARIA bike shedding
  123. # [15:42] * anne wonders if HT considered DOM consistency
  124. # [15:42] <anne> etc.
  125. # [15:42] <MikeSmith> anne, you mean http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Apr/0229.html ?
  126. # [15:43] <anne> yes
  127. # [15:43] <zcorpan> Philip: wouldn't the graph be more useful if it said "number of img elements that had alt length X"?
  128. # [15:47] <anne> ah, he doesn't consider 16 additional lines overhead
  129. # [15:47] <anne> well, that certainly explains things :)
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  132. # [15:48] <Philip> MikeSmith: It tells you that 90% of images with an alt attribute have length <= 32, and about 80% have length <= 24, so about 10% have length 24..32
  133. # [15:49] <Philip> zcorpan: Not really, since I think the graph would become very spiky and hard to read
  134. # [15:49] <anne> and he also hasn't mentioned how to move forward in text/html with this and discussed what the implications of changes there would be, etc.
  135. # [15:50] <Philip> so the cumulative graph smoothes out the meaningless random variations between (e.g.) 31 vs 32 characters
  136. # [15:51] <zcorpan> if (document.xmlVersion) {
  137. # [15:51] <zcorpan> elm.firstChild.data = 'This page was treated as XML (firefox)';
  138. # [15:51] <zcorpan> }
  139. # [15:51] <zcorpan> else if (document.documentElement.namespaceURI) {
  140. # [15:51] <zcorpan> elm.firstChild.data = 'This page was treated as XML (opera)';
  141. # [15:51] <zcorpan> }
  142. # [15:51] <zcorpan> else {
  143. # [15:51] <zcorpan> elm.firstChild.data = 'This page was treated as HTML (unknown browser)';
  144. # [15:51] <zcorpan> hmm.
  145. # [15:51] <MikeSmith> Philip, I see, thanks
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  147. # [15:53] <Philip> (Anyway, the graph is pretty confusing, but I don't know any great ways to improve it)
  148. # [15:54] <zcorpan> so he checks for document.xmlVersion || document.documentElement.namespaceURI and if true uses get|setAttributeNS, else get|setAttribute
  149. # [15:54] <zcorpan> so obviously he thinks that browsers should support two set of attributes -- namespaced and no namespace with colon in localName
  150. # [15:55] <zcorpan> and the bogus check is completely useless
  151. # [15:55] <zcorpan> well, perhaps not useless but still bogus
  152. # [15:59] <zcorpan> i also don't understand what he thinks he discovered
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  156. # [16:48] <Philip> zcorpan: http://philip.html5.org/data/alt-lengths-abs.svg shows the number of img elements with each alt length - I'm not sure whether that's any more helpful
  157. # [16:52] <zcorpan> Philip: thanks
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  171. # [17:55] * DanC changes topic to 'HTML WG weekly 17 Apr 16:00UTC http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda (logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ ) '
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  174. # [17:55] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/04/17-html-wg-irc
  175. # [17:56] <DanC> Zakim, code?
  176. # [17:56] <Zakim> the conference code is hidden, DanC
  177. # [17:56] <DanC> agenda?
  178. # [17:56] * Zakim sees 7 items remaining on the agenda:
  179. # [17:56] * Zakim 3. ISSUE-37 html-svg-mathml [from DanC]
  180. # [17:56] * Zakim 4. ISSUE-38 style-attr-syntax [from DanC]
  181. # [17:56] * Zakim 5. offline-applications-sql [from DanC]
  182. # [17:56] * Zakim 6. extensibility point, distributed extensibility [from DanC]
  183. # [17:56] * Zakim 7. forms TF status [from DanC]
  184. # [17:56] * Zakim 8. authoring guide [from DanC]
  185. # [17:56] * Zakim 9. ISSUE-31 missing-alt [from DanC]
  186. # [17:56] <DanC> leftovers.
  187. # [17:56] <DanC> Zakim, clear agenda
  188. # [17:56] <Zakim> agenda cleared
  189. # [17:57] <DanC> agenda + Convene, review agenda
  190. # [17:57] * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
  191. # [17:57] * oedipus will phone in momentarily, mikeTMsmith, i can scribe for a change if you'd like
  192. # [18:00] <DanC> action-34?
  193. # [18:00] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-34
  194. # [18:00] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-34 -- Lachlan Hunt to prepare "Web Developer's Guide to HTML5" for publication in some way, as discussed on 2007-11-28 phone conference -- due 2008-04-17 -- OPEN
  195. # [18:00] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/34
  196. # [18:00] * Joins: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217)
  197. # [18:00] <Steve_f> I am on the call
  198. # [18:00] <DanC> Zakim, this is html
  199. # [18:00] <Zakim> ok, DanC; that matches HTML_WG()12:00PM
  200. # [18:00] <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  201. # [18:00] <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P1
  202. # [18:00] <DanC> Zakim, ??P1 is Steve_f
  203. # [18:00] <Zakim> +Steve_f; got it
  204. # [18:00] <MikeSmith> Zakim, code?
  205. # [18:00] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), MikeSmith
  206. # [18:01] <DanC> action-40?
  207. # [18:01] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-40
  208. # [18:01] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-40 -- Michael(tm) Smith to add links on HTML WG home page to mechanism for watching changes to the HTML5 spec -- due 2008-04-03 -- OPEN
  209. # [18:01] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/40
  210. # [18:01] <Zakim> +Laura
  211. # [18:01] <DanC> agenda + watching HTML 5 diffs (ACTION-40)
  212. # [18:01] * Zakim notes agendum 2 added
  213. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +49.251.280.aabb
  214. # [18:01] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
  215. # [18:01] <Zakim> +??P11
  216. # [18:01] <Julian> Zakim, +49251280 is me
  217. # [18:01] <Zakim> +Julian; got it
  218. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> Zakim, ??P1 is me
  219. # [18:01] <Zakim> +MikeSmith; got it
  220. # [18:01] <shepazu> Zakim, call, doug-work
  221. # [18:01] <Zakim> I don't understand 'call, doug-work', shepazu
  222. # [18:01] <Zakim> +??P2
  223. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's here?
  224. # [18:01] <Zakim> On the phone I see Steve_f, Laura, Julian, Gregory_Rosmaita, MikeSmith, ??P2
  225. # [18:01] <Zakim> On IRC I see Laura, RRSAgent, MikeSmith, Steve_f, gsnedders, Julian, oedipus, aroben, aaronlev, chaals, deane, zcorpan, matt, tH, Sander, heycam, mjs, jmb, ROBOd, gavin_, jgraham_,
  226. # [18:01] <Zakim> ... ChrisWilson, beowulf, billmason, fearphage, Dashiva, krijnh, anne, jane, Hixie, Shunsuke, hsivonen, Yudai, jeremy, drry, Philip, DanC, xover, trackbot-ng, gavin, deltab, Zakim,
  227. # [18:02] <DanC> agenda + offline-applications-sql (ACTION-53)
  228. # [18:02] <Zakim> ... shepazu
  229. # [18:02] * Zakim notes agendum 3 added
  230. # [18:02] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's here?
  231. # [18:02] <Zakim> On the phone I see Steve_f, Laura, Julian, Gregory_Rosmaita, MikeSmith, ??P2
  232. # [18:02] <Zakim> On IRC I see Laura, RRSAgent, MikeSmith, Steve_f, gsnedders, Julian, oedipus, aroben, aaronlev, chaals, deane, zcorpan, matt, tH, Sander, heycam, mjs, jmb, ROBOd, gavin_, jgraham_,
  233. # [18:02] <Zakim> ... ChrisWilson, beowulf, billmason, fearphage, Dashiva, krijnh, anne, jane, Hixie, Shunsuke, hsivonen, Yudai, jeremy, drry, Philip, DanC, xover, trackbot-ng, gavin, deltab, Zakim,
  234. # [18:02] <Zakim> ... shepazu
  235. # [18:02] <MikeSmith> Zakim, ??P2 is Josh
  236. # [18:02] <Zakim> +Josh; got it
  237. # [18:03] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Core Breach)
  238. # [18:03] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-BOS
  239. # [18:03] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
  240. # [18:03] <Zakim> +DanC
  241. # [18:03] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30)
  242. # [18:03] <DanC> q+ to demonstrate
  243. # [18:03] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
  244. # [18:03] <DanC> ack danc
  245. # [18:03] <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to demonstrate
  246. # [18:03] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  247. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> q+ to [foo bar hoge moge]
  248. # [18:04] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  249. # [18:04] <DanC> ack MikeSmith
  250. # [18:04] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to [foo bar hoge moge]
  251. # [18:04] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  252. # [18:04] <DanC> Zakim, take up item 1
  253. # [18:04] <Zakim> agendum 1. "Convene, review agenda" taken up [from DanC]
  254. # [18:04] * Joins: Cathead (Josh@62.77.173.27)
  255. # [18:04] <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  256. # [18:04] <Zakim> On the phone I see Steve_f, Laura, Julian, Gregory_Rosmaita, MikeSmith, Josh, DanC
  257. # [18:04] <shepazu> Zakim, call doug-work
  258. # [18:04] <Zakim> ok, shepazu; the call is being made
  259. # [18:04] <shepazu> Zakim, call doug-work
  260. # [18:04] <Zakim> +Doug
  261. # [18:04] <Zakim> ok, shepazu; the call is being made
  262. # [18:04] <Zakim> +Doug.a
  263. # [18:04] <Zakim> -Doug.a
  264. # [18:04] <DanC> ISSUE-38 style-attr-syntax
  265. # [18:05] <DanC> agenda + ISSUE-38 style-attr-syntax
  266. # [18:05] * Zakim notes agendum 4 added
  267. # [18:05] <DanC> agenda + forms TF status
  268. # [18:05] * Zakim notes agendum 5 added
  269. # [18:05] <DanC> agenda + authoring guide
  270. # [18:05] * Zakim notes agendum 6 added
  271. # [18:05] <DanC> agenda =
  272. # [18:05] <DanC> agenda + publication heartbeat (22 Jan + 3 months = ...)
  273. # [18:05] * Zakim notes agendum 7 added
  274. # [18:05] <DanC> agenda + ISSUE-31 missing-alt
  275. # [18:05] * Zakim notes agendum 8 added
  276. # [18:06] <DanC> Zakim, agenda?
  277. # [18:06] <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
  278. # [18:06] <Zakim> 1. Convene, review agenda [from DanC]
  279. # [18:06] <Zakim> 2. watching HTML 5 diffs (ACTION-40) [from DanC]
  280. # [18:06] <Zakim> 3. offline-applications-sql (ACTION-53) [from DanC]
  281. # [18:06] <Zakim> 4. ISSUE-38 style-attr-syntax [from DanC]
  282. # [18:06] <Zakim> 5. forms TF status [from DanC]
  283. # [18:06] <Zakim> 6. authoring guide [from DanC]
  284. # [18:06] <Zakim> 7. publication heartbeat (22 Jan + 3 months = ...) [from DanC]
  285. # [18:06] <Zakim> 8. ISSUE-31 missing-alt [from DanC]
  286. # [18:06] <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  287. # [18:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see Steve_f, Laura, Julian, Gregory_Rosmaita, MikeSmith, Josh, DanC, Doug
  288. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute me
  289. # [18:06] <Zakim> MikeSmith should now be muted
  290. # [18:07] <DanC> agenda + http-mime-override
  291. # [18:07] * Zakim notes agendum 9 added
  292. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> nope
  293. # [18:07] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  294. # [18:07] <Zakim> agendum 2. "watching HTML 5 diffs (ACTION-40)" taken up [from DanC]
  295. # [18:07] <DanC> action-40?
  296. # [18:07] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-40
  297. # [18:07] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-40 -- Michael(tm) Smith to add links on HTML WG home page to mechanism for watching changes to the HTML5 spec -- due 2008-04-03 -- OPEN
  298. # [18:07] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/40
  299. # [18:08] <DanC> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/#spec
  300. # [18:08] <DanC> 2008/04/17 15:38:01
  301. # [18:08] <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute me
  302. # [18:08] <Zakim> MikeSmith should no longer be muted
  303. # [18:08] <oedipus> GJR: diffs have benefited from reform of script used to generate DIFFs at w3c (and available publically) by using INS and DEL rather than universally using SPAN and indicating status of text SOLELY through the use of style
  304. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  305. # [18:09] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/04/17-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  306. # [18:10] <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute me
  307. # [18:10] <Zakim> MikeSmith should now be muted
  308. # [18:10] <DanC> Zakim, who's making noise?
  309. # [18:10] <Zakim> DanC, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Gregory_Rosmaita (19%)
  310. # [18:11] <oedipus> zakim, who's making noise?
  311. # [18:12] <Zakim> oedipus, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
  312. # [18:12] <DanC> q/
  313. # [18:12] <DanC> q?
  314. # [18:12] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  315. # [18:12] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  316. # [18:12] <Zakim> agendum 3. "offline-applications-sql (ACTION-53)" taken up [from DanC]
  317. # [18:12] <DanC> action-53?
  318. # [18:12] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-53
  319. # [18:12] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-53 -- Dan Connolly to check for offline api stuff in WebAPI proposed charter -- due 2008-02-28 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  320. # [18:12] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/53
  321. # [18:13] <DanC> DC: offline stuff is *not* in currently proposed charters; contact your AC rep to let W3C know whether this is a good thing or not.
  322. # [18:13] <DanC> close action-53
  323. # [18:13] * trackbot-ng attempting to close ACTION-53.
  324. # [18:13] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-53 Check for offline api stuff in WebAPI proposed charter closed
  325. # [18:13] <DanC> close action-40
  326. # [18:13] * trackbot-ng attempting to close ACTION-40.
  327. # [18:13] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-40 Add links on HTML WG home page to mechanism for watching changes to the HTML5 spec closed
  328. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> issue-16?
  329. # [18:14] * trackbot-ng getting information on ISSUE-16
  330. # [18:14] <trackbot-ng> ISSUE-16 -- offline applications and data synchronization -- OPEN
  331. # [18:14] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/16
  332. # [18:14] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@217.228.234.104) (Client exited)
  333. # [18:15] * Joins: aaronlev (chatzilla@217.228.234.104)
  334. # [18:15] <DanC> DC: have talked with peer WGs; don't see a viable alternative to having this in the HTML 5 spec. Shall I put the question to accept this requirement?
  335. # [18:15] <DanC> Zakim, pick a victim
  336. # [18:15] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Laura
  337. # [18:15] <DanC> Zakim, pick a victim
  338. # [18:15] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Doug
  339. # [18:15] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@217.228.234.104) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.81 [Firefox 3.0pre/2008041606])
  340. # [18:15] <anne> Zakim, who is here?
  341. # [18:15] <Zakim> On the phone I see Steve_f, Laura, Julian, Gregory_Rosmaita, MikeSmith (muted), Josh, DanC, Doug
  342. # [18:15] <Zakim> On IRC I see Cathead, shepazu, Laura, RRSAgent, MikeSmith, Steve_f, gsnedders, Julian, oedipus, aroben, chaals, deane, zcorpan, matt, tH, Sander, heycam, mjs, jmb, ROBOd, gavin_,
  343. # [18:15] <Zakim> ... jgraham_, ChrisWilson, beowulf, billmason, fearphage, Dashiva, krijnh, anne, jane, Hixie, Shunsuke, hsivonen, Yudai, jeremy, drry, Philip, DanC, xover, trackbot-ng, gavin,
  344. # [18:15] <Zakim> ... deltab, Zakim
  345. # [18:16] * Joins: aaronlev (chatzilla@217.228.234.104)
  346. # [18:16] <MikeSmith> q+ to say that I don't think the question needs to be put to the group; it's in the charter
  347. # [18:16] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  348. # [18:16] * anne wonders if he should join
  349. # [18:16] <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/offline-webapps/
  350. # [18:16] <anne> Zakim, passcode?
  351. # [18:16] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), anne
  352. # [18:17] <DanC> DS: I think offline web apps should be done at W3C; no strong opinion on whether it should be in HTML... would accepting this requirement involve chaning the charter?
  353. # [18:17] <MikeSmith> q+ to note that "Data storage APIs" is specifically mentioned in the charter
  354. # [18:17] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  355. # [18:17] <Zakim> +??P3
  356. # [18:17] <anne> Zakim, ?? is me
  357. # [18:17] <Zakim> +anne; got it
  358. # [18:17] <DanC> DC: hard to say... it suggests changing the charter
  359. # [18:18] <DanC> DS: can we do it in this wg as an independent spec?
  360. # [18:18] * anne hears a strong echo
  361. # [18:18] <oedipus> doug, check the 17 november 2007 draft at http://dev.w3.org/html5/offline-webapps/
  362. # [18:18] <DanC> DC: haven't found editors interested to do it as a separate spec yet
  363. # [18:18] * anne still hears a strong echo...
  364. # [18:18] <oedipus> it's an editor's draft
  365. # [18:19] * oedipus np
  366. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> q+ to point out that offline applications is a use case for data-storage APIs; we don't call out in the charter all use cases for ever feature in the spec
  367. # [18:19] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  368. # [18:19] <DanC> DC notes http://dev.w3.org/html5/offline-webapps/
  369. # [18:19] <anne> Zakim, who is making noise?
  370. # [18:19] <Zakim> anne, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
  371. # [18:19] * DanC doesn't hear noise any more
  372. # [18:20] * oedipus i'm on mute, because i was reported as making 19% of the noise earlier
  373. # [18:20] * Quits: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  374. # [18:21] <oedipus> +1 to publication of offline-webapps as Note
  375. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute me
  376. # [18:21] <Zakim> MikeSmith should no longer be muted
  377. # [18:22] <DanC> MS: yes, a note to draw attention from experts in the area is a good thing...
  378. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> ack MikeSmith
  379. # [18:22] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to say that I don't think the question needs to be put to the group; it's in the charter and to note that "Data storage APIs" is specifically mentioned in the
  380. # [18:22] <Zakim> ... charter and to point out that offline applications is a use case for data-storage APIs; we don't call out in the charter all use cases for ever feature in the spec
  381. # [18:22] <DanC> ... re changing the charter, I don't think that's necessary or advisable.
  382. # [18:22] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  383. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute me
  384. # [18:22] <Zakim> MikeSmith should now be muted
  385. # [18:22] <DanC> DS: it's also suitable for non-HTML uses. hmm.
  386. # [18:23] <Julian> I had reported some issues in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0234.html; maybe some of them should be addressed before publication...
  387. # [18:24] <oedipus> HenriS replied: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0236.html
  388. # [18:25] <oedipus> there is a thread
  389. # [18:26] <DanC> trackbot-ng, status
  390. # [18:26] * trackbot-ng knows about the following 17 users: Michael(tm), Anne, Chris, Karl, Lachlan, Shawn, Dan, Michael, David, Charles, Maciej, James, Gregory, David, Ian, Julian, David
  391. # [18:26] * Joins: adele (adele@17.203.14.240)
  392. # [18:27] <DanC> ACTION: Anne update public-html on Offline Web Applications extended-abstract, addressing a few bits of outstanding feedback
  393. # [18:27] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  394. # [18:27] * RRSAgent records action 1
  395. # [18:27] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-58 - Update public-html on Offline Web Applications extended-abstract, addressing a few bits of outstanding feedback [on Anne van Kesteren - due 2008-04-24].
  396. # [18:27] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  397. # [18:27] <Zakim> agendum 4. "ISSUE-38 style-attr-syntax" taken up [from DanC]
  398. # [18:27] <DanC> issue-38?
  399. # [18:27] * trackbot-ng getting information on ISSUE-38
  400. # [18:27] <trackbot-ng> ISSUE-38 -- Syntax of the style attribute -- RAISED
  401. # [18:27] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/38
  402. # [18:28] <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute me
  403. # [18:28] <Zakim> MikeSmith should no longer be muted
  404. # [18:28] <DanC> "No related actions"
  405. # [18:28] <oedipus> daniel glazman (on behalf of CSS WG): "The CSS WG would like the definition of the style attribute in HTML 5 to go back to the phrasing of HTML 4, entirely leaving the definition of that attribute's value to the stylesheet's language and error handling. We don't think HTML 5 should define the contents of the style attribute in deeper details than what HTML 4 does, and in particular should not specify how individual stylistic data are separated inside the va
  406. # [18:30] <oedipus> mikeTMsmith: are you referring to http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#style0
  407. # [18:31] <Julian> i love indirections...
  408. # [18:31] <DanC> ACTION: MikeSmith to track progress on edits related to issue-38 style-attr-syntax in section html5/#style0
  409. # [18:31] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  410. # [18:31] <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - MikeSmith
  411. # [18:31] * RRSAgent records action 2
  412. # [18:31] <DanC> ACTION: Mike to track progress on edits related to issue-38 style-attr-syntax in section html5/#style0
  413. # [18:31] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  414. # [18:31] * RRSAgent records action 3
  415. # [18:31] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-59 - Track progress on edits related to issue-38 style-attr-syntax in section html5/#style0 [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2008-04-24].
  416. # [18:31] <anne> I said above that I hadn't addressed any feedback on offline-webapps because it was unclear what would happen with the draft.
  417. # [18:32] <DanC> right; missed that, anne
  418. # [18:32] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  419. # [18:32] <Zakim> agendum 5. "forms TF status" taken up [from DanC]
  420. # [18:32] <MikeSmith> q+ to comment that Keith Wells has joined the forms TF
  421. # [18:32] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  422. # [18:32] * Quits: zcorpan (zcorpan@88.131.66.80) (Ping timeout)
  423. # [18:33] * oedipus i'm not able to talk without an echo chamber
  424. # [18:33] <DanC> "Keith Wells (wellsk@us.ibm.com) from the Forms WG has agreed to join the
  425. # [18:33] <DanC> task force, replacing Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer."
  426. # [18:33] <DanC> -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2008Apr/0029.html
  427. # [18:34] <DanC> ack MikeSmith
  428. # [18:34] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to comment that Keith Wells has joined the forms TF
  429. # [18:34] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  430. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute me
  431. # [18:34] <Zakim> MikeSmith was not muted, MikeSmith
  432. # [18:34] <oedipus> q+ to say GJR, anne and maciej should discuss this with DanC, ChrisW and mikeTMsmith
  433. # [18:34] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
  434. # [18:34] * DanC wonders if MikeSmith is likely to run into Karl and remind him about the participation rules for the tf
  435. # [18:35] <oedipus> ack me
  436. # [18:35] <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say GJR, anne and maciej should discuss this with DanC, ChrisW and mikeTMsmith
  437. # [18:35] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  438. # [18:35] <oedipus> yes
  439. # [18:35] * chaals thinks he got the time wrong.
  440. # [18:35] <oedipus> yes, the chairs were the ones who choose
  441. # [18:35] * chaals will join in a minute
  442. # [18:35] * oedipus that's how i got on
  443. # [18:35] <chaals> zakim, code?
  444. # [18:35] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), chaals
  445. # [18:36] * Quits: deane (dean@203.211.93.125) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.81 [Firefox 2.0.0.14/2008040413])
  446. # [18:37] <DanC> "Participants must be nominated by the HTML and Forms working group chairs" -- http://www.w3.org/2007/10/forms-tf/charter-proposal
  447. # [18:37] <Zakim> +??P0
  448. # [18:37] <chaals> zakim, ??p0 is me
  449. # [18:37] <Zakim> +chaals; got it
  450. # [18:37] <chaals> zakim, mute me
  451. # [18:37] <Zakim> chaals should now be muted
  452. # [18:38] * Joins: jgraham_mibbit (836f44b5@67.207.141.120)
  453. # [18:39] <chaals> q+ to suggest a chair seens as neutral would probably be helpful
  454. # [18:39] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  455. # [18:39] <chaals> ack me
  456. # [18:39] * Zakim unmutes chaals
  457. # [18:39] <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to suggest a chair seens as neutral would probably be helpful
  458. # [18:39] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  459. # [18:40] * Joins: Lionheart (robin@66.57.69.65)
  460. # [18:40] <oedipus> big plus 1 to chaals
  461. # [18:40] * DanC is interested in any nomnations
  462. # [18:41] <chaals> Yes, nominations are an important part fo making this discussion something more than a waste of breath.
  463. # [18:43] <Zakim> -anne
  464. # [18:43] * anne crap
  465. # [18:43] <DanC> discussion suggests a neutral chair might make the difference between an ineffective forms TF and an effective TF; chair welcomes nominations
  466. # [18:44] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  467. # [18:44] <Zakim> agendum 6. "authoring guide" taken up [from DanC]
  468. # [18:44] <anne> Zakim, passcode?
  469. # [18:44] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), anne
  470. # [18:44] <DanC> action-34?
  471. # [18:44] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-34
  472. # [18:44] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-34 -- Lachlan Hunt to prepare "Web Developer's Guide to HTML5" for publication in some way, as discussed on 2007-11-28 phone conference -- due 2008-04-17 -- OPEN
  473. # [18:44] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/34
  474. # [18:44] <Zakim> +??P3
  475. # [18:44] <anne> Zakim, ?? is me
  476. # [18:44] <Zakim> +anne; got it
  477. # [18:44] * oedipus lachy not in any of his usual IRC haunts...
  478. # [18:45] <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
  479. # [18:45] <DanC> DC: any better idea than waiting for Lachlan?
  480. # [18:45] <DanC> [none]
  481. # [18:45] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  482. # [18:45] <Zakim> agendum 7. "publication heartbeat (22 Jan + 3 months = ...)" taken up [from DanC]
  483. # [18:45] <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute me
  484. # [18:45] <Zakim> MikeSmith should now be muted
  485. # [18:45] * Joins: smedero (smedero@192.223.6.251)
  486. # [18:45] * Quits: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145) (Connection reset by peer)
  487. # [18:46] * Joins: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145)
  488. # [18:46] <oedipus> local police cut into my call with an automated "missing disabled person report" -- luckily, it's not me...
  489. # [18:46] <DanC> DC: last pub was 22 Jan, so we're due 22 Apr; publish the offline note? or the html5 spec?
  490. # [18:47] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
  491. # [18:47] <DanC> CMN: let's publish html5 current draft; esp the multi-page
  492. # [18:47] <anne> WF2?
  493. # [18:48] * DanC hesitates to record, let alone, patent policy foo
  494. # [18:48] * DanC hesitates to record, let alone discuss, patent policy foo
  495. # [18:48] * anne agrees :)
  496. # [18:49] <oedipus> we REALLY need a multipage draft - the single page draft crashes a lot under every circumstance i've tried
  497. # [18:49] <smedero> Thanks for mentioning the multi-page version, Chaals. I guess it was too much work to deal with the first time around but it would be really nice to have. I keep going back to & referencing the whatwg version because the all-in-one is such a burden.
  498. # [18:49] <oedipus> good point, smedero
  499. # [18:49] <chaals> [?? A plain document should not be very complicated, let alone be a crasher]
  500. # [18:50] <DanC> [shouldn't be, but is...]
  501. # [18:50] <smedero> In my testing the all-in-one doesn't crash Safari 3 & Firefox 3 to be fair... but it regularly crashed Firefox 2 & Safari 2.
  502. # [18:50] <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute me
  503. # [18:50] <Zakim> MikeSmith should no longer be muted
  504. # [18:50] <oedipus> [it's crashed IE, FF3, FF2, lynx32, and a UA whose name i can't mention in an old beta version]
  505. # [18:50] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  506. # [18:51] <chaals> [?!?!? How hard is it to publish a *spec* that crashes browsers? What the %$&^&^ is there in the document?]
  507. # [18:51] <DanC> ACTION: Mike start WG discussion of next publication; consider WBS poll
  508. # [18:51] * trackbot-ng noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  509. # [18:51] * RRSAgent records action 4
  510. # [18:51] <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-60 - Start WG discussion of next publication; consider WBS poll [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2008-04-24].
  511. # [18:51] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  512. # [18:51] <Zakim> agendum 8. "ISSUE-31 missing-alt" taken up [from DanC]
  513. # [18:52] <DanC> ACTION-54?
  514. # [18:52] * trackbot-ng getting information on ACTION-54
  515. # [18:52] <trackbot-ng> ACTION-54 -- Gregory Rosmaita to work with SteveF draft text for HTML 5 spec to require producers/authors to include @alt on img elements -- due 2008-04-17 -- OPEN
  516. # [18:52] <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/54
  517. # [18:53] * DanC struggles to recall who's speaking
  518. # [18:53] * anne SteveF?
  519. # [18:53] * chaals thinks anne is right
  520. # [18:53] <DanC> SteveF: in working on the draft text, new design considerations have come up
  521. # [18:54] <oedipus> reality check from SteveF: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Apr/0269.html
  522. # [18:54] <oedipus> jim jewett latest proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Apr/0286.html
  523. # [18:54] <oedipus> hixie's latest summary: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Apr/0277.html
  524. # [18:54] * anne hears nothing now...
  525. # [18:54] * oedipus yes, it is steveF
  526. # [18:54] <anne> Zakim, who is making noise?
  527. # [18:54] <Zakim> anne, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
  528. # [18:54] <anne> same here Zakim :)
  529. # [18:55] <DanC> (who's offering to do the data collection? did I miss that?)
  530. # [18:55] <chaals> q+
  531. # [18:55] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  532. # [18:55] <chaals> [nobody offered to collect it]
  533. # [18:56] <Philip> (About multipage spec: The current is a bit yucky - I have an updated script that splits things nicer, but haven't got around to asking Hixie to use it, and it's probably bit-rotted a little by now...)
  534. # [18:56] <Philip> s/current/current one/
  535. # [18:57] <chaals> (Philip, the current document draft is horrible. If you would be kind enough to make something that works nicely that would be lovely, but even what WHAT-WG has is better than the garbage that was put up on TR)
  536. # [18:57] <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Apr/0404.html
  537. # [18:57] <oedipus> jamesGraham on data collection
  538. # [18:58] <anne> chaals, Philip made the WHATWG multipage spec
  539. # [18:58] <DanC> From: James Graham <jg307@cam.ac.uk>
  540. # [18:58] <DanC> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 18:26:48 +0100
  541. # [18:58] <anne> generator*
  542. # [18:58] <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute me
  543. # [18:58] <Zakim> MikeSmith should now be muted
  544. # [18:58] <Philip> s/The current one/The current WHATWG multipage one/
  545. # [18:58] <Cathead> Note: "ISSUE-31 missing-alt" document also contains a lot of information that would be useful for the current draft of the spec but is not entirely related to the @alt and magic value issue..
  546. # [18:59] <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute me
  547. # [18:59] <Zakim> MikeSmith should no longer be muted
  548. # [18:59] <chaals> zakim, unmute me
  549. # [18:59] <Zakim> chaals was not muted, chaals
  550. # [18:59] <Cathead> I will also help with any research into this @alt issue (when I find out more about it)
  551. # [18:59] <DanC> ack chaals
  552. # [18:59] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  553. # [18:59] <MikeSmith> q+ to say that James message makes it seem like a good deal of work
  554. # [18:59] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  555. # [18:59] <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute me
  556. # [18:59] <Zakim> MikeSmith should now be muted
  557. # [18:59] * DanC has trouble hearing chaals
  558. # [19:00] * DanC is expected elsewhere in 2 minutes; frap
  559. # [19:00] <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueAltAttribute is still actively being maintained
  560. # [19:00] <anne> Zakim, who is making noise?
  561. # [19:00] <Zakim> anne, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: chaals (84%), Josh (14%)
  562. # [19:00] <DanC> q+
  563. # [19:00] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, DanC on the speaker queue
  564. # [19:00] <anne> Zakim, who is making noise?
  565. # [19:01] <Zakim> anne, listening for 11 seconds I could not identify any sounds
  566. # [19:01] <Laura> Collecting of data about alt usage: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Apr/0404.html
  567. # [19:01] <Steve_f> q+
  568. # [19:01] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, DanC, Steve_f on the speaker queue
  569. # [19:01] * anne is confused
  570. # [19:01] * DanC isn't struggles to record what CMN is saying
  571. # [19:01] <oedipus> education, education, education
  572. # [19:03] <oedipus> a lot of suggestions on Image Equivalent Content: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/LongdescRetention
  573. # [19:03] <DanC> ack MikeSmith
  574. # [19:03] * Zakim unmutes MikeSmith
  575. # [19:03] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to say that James message makes it seem like a good deal of work
  576. # [19:03] * Zakim sees DanC, Steve_f on the speaker queue
  577. # [19:03] <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ABetterAlt
  578. # [19:03] <chaals> CMN: There are several issues there. We can seperate out some issues which are to do with specific examples, and then we should be able to boil ISSUE-31 to the essential questions
  579. # [19:04] <DanC> ("good deal" meaning months? weeks? anybody care to estimate person-days?)
  580. # [19:04] * chaals notes jgraham's plan is a lot of work, and the smaple choice is *critical* to the credibility o the result.
  581. # [19:04] * jgraham_mibbit (who isn't really around) notes that he plans to write up a better summary on a wiki or somewhere this evening
  582. # [19:04] <chaals> [I estimate 100 person-days and some careful selection to be moderately convincing]
  583. # [19:05] <DanC> ack danc
  584. # [19:05] * Zakim sees Steve_f on the speaker queue
  585. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> z
  586. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute me
  587. # [19:05] <Zakim> MikeSmith should now be muted
  588. # [19:05] <oedipus> we need a design principle, not data collection
  589. # [19:05] <chaals> [(in part on the basis that if you claim 100 person-days, people will think that somehow they were well-spent :( )]
  590. # [19:05] <smedero> MikeSmith: Yes, human annotation _is_ a lot of work. The distributed annotation tool James Graham described would fall into the "holy grail" category of annotation software for researchers.
  591. # [19:05] <chaals> s/essential questions/essential question/
  592. # [19:06] <DanC> ack Steve_f
  593. # [19:06] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  594. # [19:06] <chaals> CMN: The essential question is speculation about people's behaviour - will we get a better result by making content invalid, or will we get it by making content valid and relying on educating the people with that content?
  595. # [19:07] <oedipus> DanC, jamesG plans to "write up a better summary" somewhere (in IRC above)
  596. # [19:07] <Cathead> The @alt problem/solution is not entirely binary...
  597. # [19:07] <Zakim> -Laura
  598. # [19:07] <chaals> CMN:... it isn't easy to answer such a question. But for the rest of it I believe we can get consensus, if we can convince people to seperate the issues.
  599. # [19:08] <Cathead> At least many of the perspectives etc have now been well trashed out on the list..
  600. # [19:08] <oedipus> plus one to cathead - it is not a binary problem or solution
  601. # [19:08] * Quits: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217) (Quit: Laura)
  602. # [19:09] <DanC> Steve_f: I lean toward "alt is mandatory"; James leans toward "alt is optional"; working together seems like a fruitful approach
  603. # [19:09] <Steve_f> q+
  604. # [19:09] * Zakim sees Steve_f on the speaker queue
  605. # [19:10] <oedipus> i do NOT think more research is going to change anything or anyone's opinions - testing criterion itself a bone of contention, so plus one to CMN separation of issues
  606. # [19:10] <DanC> ack Steve_f
  607. # [19:10] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  608. # [19:12] <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute me
  609. # [19:12] <Zakim> MikeSmith should no longer be muted
  610. # [19:13] <oedipus> second third and fourth the motion
  611. # [19:13] <Zakim> -DanC
  612. # [19:13] <Zakim> -Josh
  613. # [19:13] <oedipus> steveF, do you want to open a new action or issue?
  614. # [19:14] <Zakim> -Julian
  615. # [19:14] <Zakim> -MikeSmith
  616. # [19:14] <Zakim> -anne
  617. # [19:14] * anne ... good thing I didn't do any chairing. I really need to get that headset + skype
  618. # [19:14] <smedero> oedipus: what would the new issue be?... sorry I wasn't on the call.
  619. # [19:16] <oedipus> separation of issues: design principle, strategies, and data collection of what is being generated and why and what limitations are put on authoring tools -- any analysis MUST address authoring tool capabilities
  620. # [19:16] <oedipus> it's more a study of what people can do rather than why do they do it
  621. # [19:17] <smedero> ahh ok. well that sounds like an action that relates to the existing ISSUE-31 missing-alt.
  622. # [19:17] <oedipus> personally, i'd like ALT to be required images, and summary required for table
  623. # [19:17] <oedipus> smedero, thanks for the pointer
  624. # [19:17] <Cathead> I would also really like to see @summary required for table..
  625. # [19:19] * Joins: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38)
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  627. # [19:20] * Parts: Cathead (Josh@62.77.173.27)
  628. # [19:21] <smedero> hrm, http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/32 says that the editors aren't including summary at this time because the ISSUE itself didn't describe the problem we're trying to solve with @summary.
  629. # [19:22] <smedero> so if I can crib from DanC, it looks like we need a more a compelling story for @summary.
  630. # [19:22] <oedipus> "Rejected by editor due to unclear problem description. [Ian Hickson]
  631. # [19:23] <anne> smedero, well not a story for the summary attribute, but a story about a problem for which summary is a potential solution
  632. # [19:23] <smedero> yes, that's a better way of saying what I meant. :)
  633. # [19:24] <oedipus> smedero, check out robert burns' distillation of the issue: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jun/0688.html
  634. # [19:25] <Philip> Stories of problems which aren't related to summary at all are good too, and shouldn't be given less effort than those for summary
  635. # [19:25] <anne> Depends on your goal
  636. # [19:26] * Quits: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145) (Quit: mjs)
  637. # [19:26] <Philip> The goal is to solve problems :-)
  638. # [19:27] <smedero> Yeah and I didn't mean to suggest that we should try to find anyway to get summary in.
  639. # [19:27] <anne> Your goal might be getting the summary attribute back at all cost ;)
  640. # [19:27] <oedipus> what about: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jun/0346.html
  641. # [19:28] * Joins: tH_ (Rob@87.102.123.236)
  642. # [19:28] * aaronlev is now known as aaronaway
  643. # [19:29] <oedipus> smedero, just found my own rationale post: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jun/0181.html
  644. # [19:29] * Quits: tH (Rob@77.86.5.8) (Ping timeout)
  645. # [19:29] * tH_ is now known as tH
  646. # [19:30] <anne> oedipus, I have a hard time reading that e-mail, maybe because the sentences don't begin with a capital
  647. # [19:30] <oedipus> sorry - comes from using a braille-input keyboard - it takes extra time and characters to add capitalization
  648. # [19:30] <anne> oedipus, also, both e-mails miss the point of a problem statement, they argue why summary should be in the spec, rather than saying what the problem is
  649. # [19:31] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@88.91.106.102)
  650. # [19:31] <oedipus> which?
  651. # [19:32] <anne> the last two you referenced
  652. # [19:32] <oedipus> without a summary, every TABLE will entail an extensive amount of work on the end user's part because they are:
  653. # [19:32] <oedipus> 1) unaware of the table's layout, orientation, flow, content, relevance and validity;
  654. # [19:32] <oedipus> 2) unaware of the relationships conveyed by the TABLE, for table-ized data (as well as layout tables) have meaning only insofar as one can visually and cognatively correctly correlate column and/or row headers, even if they are incorrectly marked up (for example, ndicated by a font-weight change or a fore-ground or background color change only)
  655. # [19:32] <oedipus> i'll try and rearticulate in wiki form with capital letters and standard punctuation <wink>
  656. # [19:34] <oedipus> LONGDESC extention/widget for the Opera browser. Note that this extention also exposes and makes available the CITE attribute for Q and BLOCKQUOTE.
  657. # [19:34] <oedipus> http://userjs.org/scripts/browser/enhancements/frameset-links
  658. # [19:35] * Quits: adele (adele@17.203.14.240) (Ping timeout)
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  662. # [19:37] <anne> For layout table people are advocating the usage of summary=""
  663. # [19:37] <anne> For the rest, why can't a UA determine structure from <thead>, <th>, etc.
  664. # [19:37] <Philip> Summary doesn't seem to solve that problem particularly well - currently most summary values are the empty string, and most others are like "This table is for formatting purposes only", so the user still knows very little about the table's layout, orientation, flow, etc, so it'd be nice if we could give users a better experience than that
  665. # [19:37] <smedero> oedipus, what do you make from jgraham's follow up to your piece: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jun/0188.html
  666. # [19:37] <anne> Or optionally, from a paragraph preceeding the <table>, HTML5 does that a lot
  667. # [19:38] <Steve_f> summary="garbage" on layout tables, breaks JAWS layout table filter mechanism btw
  668. # [19:38] <smedero> I don't see how summary alone solves the needs you described in #1 table's layout, orientation, flow, content, relevance and validity
  669. # [19:38] <Steve_f> which is a -1 for summary i think
  670. # [19:39] <oedipus> smedero, that's where i split the thread to "fear of invisible metadata": http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jun/0346.html
  671. # [19:39] <smedero> ahh ok, sorry... i'm still going through this thread
  672. # [19:39] <smedero> thanks
  673. # [19:39] <oedipus> no problem - thanks for taking the time
  674. # [19:39] <oedipus> having no summary doesn't help JAWS either
  675. # [19:40] <oedipus> AT will just grab something close and use that as a summary substitute
  676. # [19:40] <oedipus> and will give the dimensions of the TABLE which is helpful
  677. # [19:43] * Quits: aroben (aroben@71.58.57.150) (Quit: Leaving)
  678. # [19:44] <oedipus> smedero: here are a few summaries used in linux foundation specs (a11y.org/kafs and a11y.org/a11y-dom-apis)
  679. # [19:44] <oedipus> summary="This table identifies the configurable functionality each feature must make available to the user, the controls associated with the defined functionality, and the required ranges that must be supported in variable controls."
  680. # [19:44] <oedipus> summary="Table 2 describes the notifications that must be provided the user when specified changes to keyboard state occur -- these include visual and audio notifications that are not already implicitly defined in Table 1"
  681. # [19:44] <oedipus> summary="Comparison of navigation and action Application Programming Interfaces for AT-SPI, MSAA, W3C DOM, and HPR WAT"
  682. # [19:44] * Joins: tH_ (Rob@77.86.118.102)
  683. # [19:45] <oedipus> or summary="Open Accessibility Workgroup Meetings and Minutes for 2008. There are 4 columns in this table: Date, Agenda, Minutes, and Audio/Comments"
  684. # [19:45] * Quits: tH (Rob@87.102.123.236) (Ping timeout)
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  687. # [19:45] <anne> Most of that seems like they should be captions. The 4 column thing is something AT software should be able to figure out...
  688. # [19:46] <smedero> Yeah my initial thought was that text should closely mirror <caption> but it doesn't seem to in this document.
  689. # [19:46] <oedipus> caption is a header for the table as a whole
  690. # [19:46] <smedero> summary: This table identifies the configurable functionality each feature must make available to the user, the controls associated with the defined functionality, and the required ranges that must be supported in variable controls.
  691. # [19:47] <oedipus> summary is contextual/orientational
  692. # [19:47] <smedero> caption: "Table 1. Configuration and Setting Requirement"
  693. # [19:47] * Quits: matt (matt@128.30.52.30) (Quit: matt)
  694. # [19:47] <oedipus> the problem is what jim allan, chair of UAAG calls the "diagnal" dimension of a table, and speaking of UA WG, i have to joint that
  695. # [19:48] <oedipus> s/joint/join
  696. # [19:48] <oedipus> ;)
  697. # [19:48] <anne> It's not clear to me what problem the summary attribute is addressing that tables don't expose already.
  698. # [19:50] <oedipus> a) it the table is there; b) it concerns information about x, y, and z organized in such and such a fashion; c) important for highly nested tables in conjunction with headers/id AND scope
  699. # [19:50] <anne> The one time I remember having used the summary attribute it seems to be quite bogus... Repeating information already stated in the caption...
  700. # [19:50] * Joins: aroben (aroben@71.58.57.150)
  701. # [19:51] <anne> I mean, I appear to have used it incorrectly...
  702. # [19:51] <anne> (for some definition of "correct")
  703. # [19:51] <smedero> The only thing I'm having trouble with in the first "a11y" example from oedipus..
  704. # [19:51] <smedero> so there's a paragraph above the table
  705. # [19:51] <smedero> "<p>This section identifies the configurable functionality each feature must
  706. # [19:51] <smedero> make available to the user, the controls associated with the defined
  707. # [19:51] <smedero> functionality, and the required ranges that must be supported in variable
  708. # [19:51] <smedero> controls.
  709. # [19:51] <smedero> then this same text (more or less)
  710. # [19:52] <smedero> is repeated as the summary
  711. # [19:52] <smedero> summary="This table identifies the configurable functionality each feature must
  712. # [19:52] <smedero> make available to the user, the controls associated with the defined functionality,
  713. # [19:52] <smedero> and the required ranges that must be supported in variable controls.
  714. # [19:52] <smedero> for the table...
  715. # [19:52] <smedero> excuse the crappy cut & paste job.
  716. # [19:53] <oedipus> if i am working with sighted colleagues, i'm often directed to Table 3 or Table 7 -- i can get directly to the table, but once there, why should i or my AT have to search surrounding context and pluck something which is at best a guess
  717. # [19:53] <oedipus> what a summary does is give you the same contextualization the format of a TABLE gives to anyone who can see and cognatively process it
  718. # [19:55] <anne> and there's no easy way to read the paragraph before the table?
  719. # [19:55] <anne> (if any)
  720. # [19:55] <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
  721. # [19:55] * Quits: jgraham_mibbit (836f44b5@67.207.141.120) (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  722. # [19:56] <anne> I think if I got just the table without any of the surrounding content I'd be confused too
  723. # [19:56] <anne> I'm not really sure if the summary attribute is really a good solution to that problem...
  724. # [19:56] <Zakim> -Steve_f
  725. # [19:56] <oedipus> i'll have to continue this discussion on list or later on IRC -- got to go talk Access Module with the user agent group
  726. # [19:57] <oedipus> by the way, if summary isn't the best solution, i'm open to a better one!
  727. # [19:57] * oedipus is now known as oedipus[away]
  728. # [19:58] <oedipus[away]> I am now away. Reason: "the call of the wild..." E-mail: not specified Left At: Thursday 17 April 2008 - 1:55 PM (tIRC away system)
  729. # [19:58] * anne thinks a better one might be better AT software :)
  730. # [19:59] <anne> it's unfortunate AT software doesn't seem to have the same competitiveness as Web browsers yet
  731. # [19:59] <oedipus[away]> AT software is only as good as what it is given to interpret
  732. # [19:59] <oedipus[away]> someday, over a drink of your choice, anne i'll address that question about AT competitiveness, but for now, bye
  733. # [20:00] <anne> bye, and I might just take you up on that ;)
  734. # [20:00] <oedipus[away]> i certainly hope so!
  735. # [20:03] * aaronaway is now known as aaronlev
  736. # [20:09] * Dashiva pictures the drink as a vat of acid and anne as an evil mastermind
  737. # [20:10] <Zakim> -Doug
  738. # [20:10] <Zakim> -chaals
  739. # [20:10] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
  740. # [20:10] <Zakim> Attendees were +49.251.280.aaaa, Steve_f, Laura, +49.251.280.aabb, Gregory_Rosmaita, Julian, MikeSmith, Josh, DanC, Doug, Doug.a, anne, chaals
  741. # [20:12] * Quits: adele (adele@17.255.97.219) (Quit: adele)
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  746. # [20:19] <Lionheart> Well, I was here, just late
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  751. # [20:32] <Lionheart> It may have been better if "summary" had been made a child element instead of an attribute when it was conceived. In trying to use it, complex tables don't summarize well in one-line attributes and I find myself wanting to use <ul> markup in the summary.
  752. # [20:33] <Lionheart> At least in my practice, a summary of a table often involves making a list
  753. # [20:36] <hsivonen> anne: Re: summary='', there's also role=presentation
  754. # [20:37] <anne> grmbl
  755. # [20:39] <hsivonen> Re: searching for explanation in table context: would aria-describedby work there without hidden content in summary?
  756. # [20:40] <anne> looking at the previous paragraph or the containing section makes more sense to me...
  757. # [20:40] <Philip> anne: You should try implementing it and then seeing how much sense it makes
  758. # [20:41] <anne> though I suppose aria-describedby could be used for explicit association, seems kind of awkward to author though
  759. # [20:41] <anne> Philip, well, as author I don't want to have to bother with duplicating information in various places
  760. # [20:43] <Philip> anne: As a user you want a reliable association between related pieces of data, and guessing that the previous paragraph might be associated is not as reliable as explicit relations
  761. # [20:43] <hober> Philip: sure. In that case, some kind of @for + @id would be better than copy-and-paste-from-p-to-@summary
  762. # [20:44] <anne> and even then it still feels like too much effort
  763. # [20:44] <hober> indeed
  764. # [20:45] <Philip> anne: It feels like too much effort to many people, but there are few to whom it doesn't, so if we let those few make their pages work better (and don't make the many's pages worse) then the world will be a better place
  765. # [20:47] <anne> the question is if the copy-and-paste author cult will strike and make many useless pages
  766. # [20:47] <hsivonen> aria-describedby is the reverse relation for "some kind of @for"
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  769. # [20:50] <Philip> hsivonen: Rather than worry about the direction of the relation and which end it's stored at, it'd be much more flexible to split it out and just have a (subject, relation, object) triple at an arbitrary location in the document or elsewhere
  770. # [20:58] <hsivonen> hah
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The end :)