/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-06-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jun 19 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  6. # [00:39] <Lachy> [off] krijnh, does it work in here and in #whatwg too?
  7. # [00:39] <krijnh> NOpe
  8. # [00:39] <Lachy> good
  9. # [00:40] <Hixie> :-)
  10. # [00:40] <krijnh> But I'm sure somebody is going to ask for that )
  11. # [00:40] <Hixie> well i don't have any authority in #html-wg, but if you need someone to give you authority to refuse adding [off] support to #whatwg, just send them my way
  12. # [00:41] <Hixie> i'll back you up all the way
  13. # [00:41] <Lachy> Hixie, we haven't had any requests for it before and it's proven useful, if not sometimes embarrasing, to have everything we say unconditionally logged. So I doubt people would request it here
  14. # [00:43] <Philip> krijnh: Could you implement [off] in here please?
  15. # [00:43] <krijnh> [ignored]
  16. # [00:43] <Philip> [foiled again]
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  36. # [05:30] * heycam wonders what the ramifications of the recently updated table at http://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/40318/status#current-disclosures is
  37. # [05:38] <mjs> wow, is Apple the only one to have disclosed patents already?
  38. # [05:41] <heycam> so what does the fact that none of the claims are excluded mean? a PAG has to be formed? or can you (apple) just issue a wide-ranging patent license or indemnification or something?
  39. # [05:41] <mjs> if the claims are not excluded that means Apple agrees to the licensing requirements
  40. # [05:41] <heycam> ah ok
  41. # [05:41] <heycam> i got it the other way around
  42. # [05:41] <mjs> an excluded claim would mean we are not granting the usually required license
  43. # [05:41] <heycam> gotcha
  44. # [05:41] <mjs> I actually don't know how to find the text of those patents
  45. # [05:42] <heycam> uspto.gov?
  46. # [05:42] <mjs> I really doubt Apple is the only HTML WG member to have relevant patents though!
  47. # [05:42] <heycam> (well not for the unpublished/HK ones i spose)
  48. # [05:42] <heycam> heh
  49. # [05:42] <heycam> probably not
  50. # [05:42] <heycam> when's the end of the disclosure period?
  51. # [05:43] <heycam> 20 june it seems
  52. # [05:43] <mjs> June 20th apparently
  53. # [05:43] <heycam> tomorrow :)
  54. # [05:43] <mjs> 2 days left
  55. # [05:43] <heycam> (mod timezone)
  56. # [05:44] <mjs> I can't find any of those patents via uspto.gov or google patent search
  57. # [05:47] <heycam> the first one is for <canvas> i see
  58. # [05:53] <mjs> ah yes
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  82. # [09:16] <Lachy> mjs, although the first of those patents seems to be for the canvas element, this page http://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/p59 points to section 3.14.11 which changed to the output element in the last published WD, and is now the TH element in the editor's draft.
  83. # [09:17] <mjs> Lachy: I would expect all section references to be to the FPWD
  84. # [09:17] <mjs> Lachy: since that is the basis for the patent policy obligation
  85. # [09:17] <Lachy> ah, ok.
  86. # [09:17] <mjs> although, to be fair, I am not the one who submitted the patent disclosures so I wouldn't really know
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  92. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> mjs: I'm noticing this in the CC header of the "DOM Storage" message you just sent
  93. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> Ian Hickson <IMCEAMAILTO-ian+40hixie+2Ech@windows.microsoft.com>
  94. # [10:18] <mjs> yeah I noticed that too
  95. # [10:18] <mjs> because that address bounced
  96. # [10:19] <Hixie> yeah for some reason my mail included that too
  97. # [10:19] <Hixie> i guess it was in their original reply
  98. # [10:19] <MikeSmith> yeah, I see it in Hixie's message that you replied to
  99. # [10:19] <MikeSmith> strange stuff
  100. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> Fox News gets hip to HTML5:
  101. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,368182,00.html
  102. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> "Firefox 3 even delves into the future of standards support, with support for some HTML 5 features like the video, activeElement and hasFocus attributes tags."
  103. # [10:25] <Philip> (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2006/0005114.html is the first listed patent, and it looks like the secord/third are the same thing in Europe and Hong Kong)
  104. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> Fox News article a little confused but heart in the right place
  105. # [10:25] <Hixie> "The top new feature has to be the address bar, what Mozilla types call "The Awesome Bar," but which the development team has officially dubbed the location bar."
  106. # [10:26] <Hixie> that sentence makes no sense
  107. # [10:26] <Philip> (and the next two are the same thing in two other places but I'm not sure which places)
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  109. # [10:29] <heycam> crazy patent language
  110. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> I think media articles are often like the telephone game
  111. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> original writer may have murky idea himself and ambiguous, in accurate prose
  112. # [10:30] <heycam> MikeSmith, do you also know the game as "Chinese Whispers"?
  113. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> then it passes through hands of well-intentioned but even less savvy copy editors who make language "improvements"
  114. # [10:30] <heycam> that's what we call it, and i only learnt "the telephone game" the other day while watching curb your enthusiasm
  115. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> heycam: yeah, same thing as Telephone Game
  116. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> I guess "telephone game" is more politically correct at least
  117. # [10:31] <Hixie> it's not unique to the journalism industry, you see the same thing happen to our own industry's specs
  118. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> yep
  119. # [10:32] <Hixie> someone writes some proposal, and it goes through multiple editors who "improve" it before it reaches REC
  120. # [10:32] <Lachy> never heard of it being called the Telephone Game before.
  121. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> I prefer Spin the Bottle or Post Office
  122. # [10:33] <MikeSmith> or Naked Movie Star
  123. # [10:33] <Lachy> MikeSmith, I don't know those last 2 games.
  124. # [10:35] <Dashiiiva> Mornington Crescent
  125. # [10:35] <heycam> :)
  126. # [10:37] <heycam> heh, http://www.facebook.com/apps/application.php?api_key=fd7aeae0bc900217f6599b1868d6aa01
  127. # [10:38] <Lachy> Dashiiiva, wikipedia's description of Mornington Crescent don't make much sense.
  128. # [10:39] <Hixie> Mornington Crescent don't make much sense in general
  129. # [10:40] <Dashiiiva> Which is sort of the point
  130. # [10:40] <Hixie> (that's part of the point)
  131. # [10:40] <Hixie> right
  132. # [10:40] <Hixie> what Dashiiiva said
  133. # [10:40] <Hixie> also what's with the iiis? :-)
  134. # [10:40] <Dashiiiva> I used to be two, but then I got a nick collision with myself, so it became three
  135. # [10:40] <Lachy> so players just say random Tube stations until one decides to say Mornington Crescent?
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  137. # [10:40] <Dashiiiva> Lachy: No, that's just the vehicle for making up rules.
  138. # [10:41] <Lachy> ok, I'll probably have to find and listen to a recording of it somewhere.
  139. # [10:41] <Hixie> it's basically the same as nomic
  140. # [10:41] <Dashiiiva> (without accountability)
  141. # [10:41] <Lachy> Hixie, I don't know what nomic is either
  142. # [10:41] <Hixie> but optimised for radio
  143. # [10:41] <Hixie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomic
  144. # [10:41] <Lachy> anyway, I must go. bbiab.
  145. # [10:41] <Dashiiiva> It's also somewhat similar to Mao
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  147. # [10:42] * Dashiiiva is now known as gDashiva
  148. # [10:42] <takkaria> Mao is awesome
  149. # [10:43] <Hixie> i was in a group once with a bunch of us who were trying to play a trick on someone (in a green room) once
  150. # [10:43] <Hixie> we had a pack of cards
  151. # [10:43] <Hixie> and whenever the guy left the room (e.g. to do his bit on stage) we'd give each others cards and just play random moves
  152. # [10:43] <Hixie> saying things like "oh, bummer, jack on heart."
  153. # [10:43] <Hixie> there were no rules, we were just pretending
  154. # [10:44] <Hixie> (he asked to take part, but we refused to tell him the rules, saying, like with mao, that he had to work it out himself or something)
  155. # [10:44] <gDashiva> That sounds a lot like MC with cards
  156. # [10:44] <Hixie> the point of this story though is that we ended up accidentally making up an actual game
  157. # [10:44] <Hixie> with real rules that we all ended up knowing
  158. # [10:45] <Hixie> which somewhat defeated the point of screwing with this guy's sanity
  159. # [10:45] <Hixie> so every now and then we'd throw in a random new rule
  160. # [10:45] <mjs> curse the pattern matching power of the brain
  161. # [10:45] <Hixie> "oh no! spade 9-6! *take three cards*"
  162. # [10:45] <Hixie> he started knowing the rules as well and would call us on these random new additions, so we'd have to come up with even more elaborate dismissals
  163. # [10:46] <Hixie> "well the spade 9-6 rule didn't apply earlier because clubs were in crescent"
  164. # [10:46] <Hixie> it was good times.
  165. # [10:47] <gDashiva> It's not a real card game until the rules consider compass directions and moon phase
  166. # [10:47] <takkaria> I want to know the rules of that game now. :)
  167. # [10:47] * gDashiva recalls Myth
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  173. # [11:34] <anne> mjs, isn't the patent policy so that you don't need to list your patents if you're fine with not excluding them?
  174. # [11:34] <anne> mjs, I would expect that's what most companies do
  175. # [11:36] <mjs> anne: there's a disclosure requirement as well as a licensing (unless excluded) requirement
  176. # [11:36] <mjs> http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy-20040205/#sec-Disclosure
  177. # [11:37] <mjs> and the FPWD says, "An individual who has actual knowledge of a patent which the individual believes contains Essential Claim(s) must disclose the information in accordance with section 6 of the W3C Patent Policy."
  178. # [11:44] <anne> interesting
  179. # [11:44] <anne> although section 6.2 sort of suggests it might be ok to just wait
  180. # [11:45] <anne> "or if the relevant exclusion period under section 4 has lapsed"
  181. # [11:45] <anne> ianal
  182. # [11:48] <Hixie> oh hey i was about to go to bed when the xhtml2 wg replied
  183. # [11:51] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i assume you will respond in some fashion?
  184. # [11:52] <anne> big deal, get some rest :)
  185. # [11:52] <Lachy> wow. I don't think there's any chance of us removing that stuff about XHTML.
  186. # [11:53] <anne> what stuff?
  187. # [11:53] <Hixie> i can make the text of the spec much more explicit, explaining that there are two groups working on xml syntaxes for html, and that the w3c isn't officially blessing one over another, or something
  188. # [11:53] <Lachy> anne, read the comment from the XHTML2WG
  189. # [11:53] <Hixie> MikeSmith: let me know what you want me to do
  190. # [11:53] <Hixie> anyway
  191. # [11:53] <Hixie> bed time now
  192. # [11:53] <hsivonen> Lachy: we could remove the non-normative "appearance" :-)
  193. # [11:53] <Lachy> "We discussed your request at our Face to Face meeting and concluded: "The
  194. # [11:53] <Lachy> [XHTML2] WG recognises that we are chartered to maintain and develop the
  195. # [11:53] <Lachy> XHTML series, and the HTML5 specification should therefore not contain
  196. # [11:53] <Lachy> text that makes it appear differently".
  197. # [11:53] <Lachy> We request that the text be removed."
  198. # [11:53] <anne> Lachy, I thought it was just about the XHTML2 section, but I'm not sure why we'd remove that
  199. # [11:54] <Hixie> (their minutes are quite fun to read btw)
  200. # [11:54] <Hixie> nn
  201. # [11:54] <hsivonen> nn
  202. # [11:54] <mjs> where is their response?
  203. # [11:54] <Lachy> mjs, on public-html
  204. # [11:54] <mjs> oh, there it is
  205. # [11:55] <Lachy> anne, MikeSmith's mail that it was a response to discusses the relationship to XHTML 1.x sections
  206. # [11:55] <anne> I see
  207. # [11:55] <anne> I don't feel strongly about that I think
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  210. # [11:56] <hsivonen> as I read the new text, it says that the XHTML2 WG works on Modularized XHTML while the HTML 5 spec is a new spec for non-Modularized XHTML
  211. # [11:57] <mjs> SVG WG has a draft of their proposal
  212. # [11:57] <mjs> which appears to make HTML parsing depend on what plugins you have installed
  213. # [11:57] <shepazu> arly draft
  214. # [11:57] <shepazu> early
  215. # [11:57] <hsivonen> URL?
  216. # [11:58] <mjs> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0142.html
  217. # [11:58] <hsivonen> thanks
  218. # [11:58] <mjs> wow, public-canvas-api has had no traffic since the welcome message
  219. # [11:59] <mjs> I guess the mysterious parties who requested it lost interest
  220. # [11:59] <shepazu> mjs, that's not how I would put it... one of the the proposals we're juggling with involves handing it off to a virtual parser
  221. # [12:00] <shepazu> well, the fact that Hixie essentially said he'd ignore the canvas list might have helped there
  222. # [12:00] <shepazu> small surprise
  223. # [12:01] <mjs> maybe I didn't understand the proposal, or what "content handler" (also described as a "content plug-in") is supposed to be
  224. # [12:01] <shepazu> yeah, he used a lot of jargon there we need to clean up
  225. # [12:02] <mjs> the more I read it the less I understand it
  226. # [12:02] <gDashiva> shepazu: Wasn't the part of the idea to send the API off on its own?
  227. # [12:02] <mjs> it seems to change how html parsing of unknown html elements would work
  228. # [12:02] <shepazu> gDashiva: there was a lot of talk about it, but it comes down to resources
  229. # [12:03] <shepazu> mjs: there are actually 2 proposals there, fyi
  230. # [12:03] <shepazu> gDashiva: without someone with the time to drive it, it may not happen
  231. # [12:03] <gDashiva> shepazu: But if that was the plan, then it shouldn't be an issue that Hixie doesn't follow it
  232. # [12:03] <mjs> really? where does one end and the other begin?
  233. # [12:04] <takkaria> I'm not sure why the svg people is worrying about mathml parsing
  234. # [12:05] <shepazu> mjs, we will tighten it up iteratively... right now it's still rough
  235. # [12:05] <mjs> no, I'm not asking that to poke fun, I'd really like to know (or are there two proposals interleaved somehow?)
  236. # [12:06] <shepazu> no, not saying that... I'm saying it would be easier to answer your question by simply tightening the doc up :)
  237. # [12:06] <mjs> is the svgWidget/svgDoc thing the second proposal?
  238. # [12:06] <shepazu> I wanted to get something out in the public straight away, so we didn't leave people wondering if we were working on it at all
  239. # [12:07] <mjs> I really really should go to bed, so ttfn
  240. # [12:08] * Quits: beowulf (beowulf@208.113.221.22) (Client exited)
  241. # [12:08] <shepazu> I think part 2 starts at "High level view of the changes to HTML5"
  242. # [12:19] <Philip> The first proposal sounds like the tokeniser would be shared betwen HTML and SVG, and the Content Handler works like a set of modes in the tree constructor
  243. # [12:19] <Philip> which means that unquoted attributes would be allowed, since they're handled in the tokeniser
  244. # [12:20] <shepazu> well, then that's not quite baked :)
  245. # [12:20] <shepazu> the guy who wrote it is not terribly familiar with HTML5
  246. # [12:20] <MikeSmith> Hixie: nothing please
  247. # [12:21] <shepazu> but does have considerable experience in making an HTML+SVG implementation
  248. # [12:21] <hsivonen> shepazu: which implementation?
  249. # [12:22] <shepazu> don't know the name of it, and I will see how much of it is public before I say more
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  251. # [12:24] <hsivonen> ok, so the Web-compatibility of the implementation can't be tested by the general public
  252. # [12:25] <shepazu> lol... always got the talking-points handy, eh?
  253. # [12:26] <hsivonen> shepazu: well, it isn't too convincing to mention an implementation without even naming it :-)
  254. # [12:27] <hsivonen> (I should point out that what Hixie had isn't testable at the moment, either)
  255. # [12:27] <shepazu> I wasn't trying to convince you, I was supplying what information I could in response to a question... I already said the proposal isn't done yet
  256. # [12:27] <shepazu> I'd like if the implementation in question were available soon, but no idea about plans
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  258. # [12:28] <Lachy> this is clearly wrong: " When a HTML parser encounters an unrecognized element during the element identification step, it does the following: * Terminates the current element or attribute tag – For example it terminates P, LI, TR, TH, etc. elements. "
  259. # [12:29] <Philip> "Note a CSS parser is a non-HTML parser inside HTML, so it's somewhat similar to introducing XML parser into HTML." - that doesn't really seem true - HTML parsers don't care about CSS parsing at all, they just know there's an element which is terminated on "</style" and the content of the element is irrelevant to parsing
  260. # [12:30] <Philip> Lachy: The following note already acknowledges that that's wrong
  261. # [12:30] <Lachy> Philip, it just says it may not be entirely accurate.
  262. # [12:31] <Philip> Lachy: I read that as a polite way of saying "this is clearly wrong" :-)
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  264. # [12:31] <Lachy> ah, I read it as trying to say that it was believed to be at least partially correct
  265. # [12:33] <Philip> I don't think the details matter in that case - the point is just to work similarly to how unrecognised elements are already handled
  266. # [12:38] <Lachy> well, the whole thing is rather ambiguous at this stage with far too many open issues for it to be seriously reviewed and considered.
  267. # [12:38] * Quits: beowulf (beowulf@208.113.221.22) (Client exited)
  268. # [12:39] <Lachy> it seems to want to switch between the HTML and SVG parsers at almost any point, which raises big questions about the well-formedness contstraints I was under the impression they wanted to enforce.
  269. # [12:40] <Philip> I'm not at all familiar with what HTML5 says now, but the proposal sounds pretty similar - on encountering certain elements, switch into a different tree-construction mode (Content Handler / "in foreign content" insertion mode), and break out when a 'wrong' element is reached
  270. # [12:40] <Lachy> e.g. <p><svg ...><p>HTML fragment<svg>[nested svg]</svg><p>more HTML[EOF]
  271. # [12:41] <Philip> except that HTML5 breaks out when certain HTML elements are reached, whereas the proposal breaks out when any not-recognised-as-SVG element is reached
  272. # [12:41] <Lachy> Philip, sort of, but it's invoking an entirely separate parser with entirely different parsing requirements.
  273. # [12:41] * Quits: jmb (jmb@152.78.68.189) (Ping timeout)
  274. # [12:41] <Philip> and the latter approach seems to prevent graceful extensions to SVG, since any new SVG 1.3 elements could not be used (and silently ignored) by SVG 1.2 UAs
  275. # [12:42] * Quits: Navarr (navarr@75.53.205.97) (Ping timeout)
  276. # [12:43] <Philip> Lachy: I don't see the difference - the proposal still uses the normal HTML5 tokeniser, and it's just a special mode in the tree construction algorithm that causes tags to be processed in a different way (and the tree constructor is already full of those modes)
  277. # [12:43] * Joins: jmb (jmb@152.78.68.189)
  278. # [12:44] <Lachy> Philip, consider the example I gave above. They want to enfoce well formedness contraints. But since the EOF was encountered during an HTML fragment, it's questionable what happens.
  279. # [12:44] <Philip> (at least the part above the "High level view of the changes to HTML5" line, which is different)
  280. # [12:45] <Lachy> it's also not clear whether or not xmlns is required in their proposal
  281. # [12:48] <Lachy> and when the HTML tokeniser encounters <svg xmlns=".../svg"> and it wants to query the content handlers for one that can deal with it, does it need to ensure that the svg element is in the svg namespace, or as unknown element in the HTML namespace?
  282. # [12:48] <Lachy> so would it require XML namespace processing to be added to the HTML tokeniser?
  283. # [12:49] <Lachy> s/tokeniser/tree constructor/
  284. # [12:49] * Joins: Navarr (navarr@75.53.205.97)
  285. # [12:50] * Philip goes away for a while
  286. # [12:50] <gDashiva> Well, it is a draft, so surely it will be fixed and improved before anyone on the outside is expected to comment
  287. # [12:51] <Lachy> gDashiva, I hope so.
  288. # [12:53] <Philip> It's still good to make the drafts public to show what progress is being made
  289. # [12:53] <shepazu> you hope so? I've explicitly stated that several times, Lachy
  290. # [12:55] * shepazu is tired and grumpy, no sleep last night... sorry
  291. # [12:56] <Lachy> shepazu, simply stating that it will be done doesn't make it so.
  292. # [12:56] <shepazu> ok, Lachy, thanks for the encouragement
  293. # [12:57] <Lachy> your welcome.
  294. # [12:57] <shepazu> Philip, thanks for being reasonable
  295. # [12:57] <hsivonen> Lachy: in fairness, we are relying on Hixie's word on the Web compat analysis of what he specced for SVG-in-text/html
  296. # [12:58] <Lachy> hsivonen, I'm aware of that.
  297. # [12:58] <hsivonen> I'll try to get something runnable out there before I leave to celebrate St.John's
  298. # [13:04] <Lachy> oh, rb is posting more bug reports.
  299. # [13:11] * Joins: beowulf (beowulf@208.113.221.22)
  300. # [13:17] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Less talk, more pimp walk.)
  301. # [13:18] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  302. # [13:42] <hsivonen> OK. I put a build out there. Expect the build to suck.
  303. # [13:43] <hsivonen> already found a bug: dl is missing from the list of elements that break out of foreign content
  304. # [13:45] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: what are astral characters?
  305. # [13:45] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233)
  306. # [13:46] * MikeSmith reads Wikipedia entry
  307. # [13:46] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: characters above U+FFFF
  308. # [13:55] <heycam> i.e., not in plane 0
  309. # [14:09] <MikeSmith> yep
  310. # [14:20] * Joins: myakura (myakura@222.145.138.216)
  311. # [14:25] * myakura thinking about abbr expantion using <ruby>
  312. # [14:26] <myakura> like <abbr><ruby>WWW <rp>(</rp><rt>World Wide Web</rt><rp>)</rp></ruby></abbr>
  313. # [14:28] <MikeSmith> dude, that's a lot of markup
  314. # [14:28] <gDashiva> That's the lean version too
  315. # [14:28] <gDashiva> complex ruby is even worse
  316. # [14:28] <myakura> yep
  317. # [14:29] <myakura> taking rp out would look slightly better
  318. # [14:33] <myakura> sometimes i don't use @title but do write as "<abbr>WWW</abbr> (World Wide Web)"
  319. # [14:33] <myakura> so people don't need to move a cursor to the word in order to obtain the expantion
  320. # [14:33] <myakura> but that's not really good for abbr markup
  321. # [14:35] <myakura> maybe i should use content:attr(title); instead...
  322. # [14:49] <Philip> I just assume that anyone who's reading my content on the web already knows what "WWW" means :-)
  323. # [14:54] <gDashiva> Why do you hate accessibility, Philip :P
  324. # [15:04] <Philip> hsivonen: Is HTML2XML meant to guarantee well-formed output?
  325. # [15:04] <Philip> Woah, crazy Opera bug
  326. # [15:05] <hsivonen> Philip: it's meant to eventually, but currently it doesn't if an element/attribute name isn't an NCName
  327. # [15:05] <Philip> Including an HTML file via <object> puts a resize handle in the corner of the object box, and dragging it resizes the outer Opera window
  328. # [15:06] <Philip> hsivonen: Okay - I was just trying to parse XML SVG files as HTML to output XHTML containing SVG, to see if that exposes any problems, but half the files end up ill-formed
  329. # [15:06] <hsivonen> Philip: whoa
  330. # [15:06] <hsivonen> Philip: do they have colons in names?
  331. # [15:06] <hsivonen> like <svg:svg> or <rdf:RDF>?
  332. # [15:07] <Philip> hsivonen: <svg sodipodi:version="..." ...>
  333. # [15:07] <Philip> and xlink:href
  334. # [15:08] <hsivonen> sodipodi is expected to break
  335. # [15:13] <hsivonen> I'm planning on dropping non-NCName attributes and replacing non-NCName elements with something like <__bogus__>
  336. # [15:17] <Philip> Hmph, one of a hundred SVG files crashed Opera :-(
  337. # [15:27] <Philip> Most of these seem to be working alright, except for some that become extremely tiny or quite large when they're inline in XHTML instead of standalone SVG
  338. # [15:36] <hsivonen> Philip: what are you testing?
  339. # [15:50] * Disconnected
  340. # [16:01] * Attempting to rejoin channel #html-wg
  341. # [16:01] * Rejoined channel #html-wg
  342. # [16:01] * Topic is 'HTML WG telcon 05 June 16:00Z | http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda | this channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  343. # [16:01] * Set by MikeSmith on Thu Jun 05 09:49:33
  344. # [16:01] <hsivonen> that looks indeed bad
  345. # [16:02] <Philip> I see the same issue in the version with the SVG stuff
  346. # [16:02] <hsivonen> I must have a buffer management bug somewhere
  347. # [16:04] * Disconnected
  348. # [16:10] * Attempting to rejoin channel #html-wg
  349. # [16:10] * Rejoined channel #html-wg
  350. # [16:10] * Topic is 'HTML WG telcon 05 June 16:00Z | http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda | this channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  351. # [16:10] * Set by MikeSmith on Thu Jun 05 09:49:33
  352. # [16:15] <Philip> Lachy: I can't make a simple one, but I have something that might reproduce it
  353. # [16:15] <Philip> Try downloading http://philip.html5.org/misc/GPCR.svg to a local file and then viewing in Opera 9.5
  354. # [16:16] <Philip> For me it shows a page with some text "]>_graphs;"_xlink;" width="293.596" height="539.456" viewBox="0 0 293.596 539.456"" at the bottom
  355. # [16:16] <Philip> (If I try to simplify it then the bug seems to go away)
  356. # [16:18] <Philip> (or at least if I try to simplify it further - I cut off as much of the end as possible, then messed around a bit and ended up adding some &s to the end that I couldn't get rid of again)
  357. # [16:19] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@92.227.28.234) (Connection reset by peer)
  358. # [16:19] <Lachy> Philip, which build number do you have?
  359. # [16:19] <Philip> Lachy: 2042 (Linux)
  360. # [16:20] <Philip> If it's not just my imagination, I can file a bug on it :-)
  361. # [16:21] <Lachy> I can't reproduce it with my mac build.
  362. # [16:21] <Lachy> I'll try windows.
  363. # [16:23] <Philip> I can't reproduce with 9945 on Windows
  364. # [16:24] <Lachy> I can't reproduce on windows either
  365. # [16:24] <Lachy> 9945 is an old build. 10063 appears to be the released build of 9.5
  366. # [16:25] <Philip> Hmm
  367. # [16:25] <Philip> Maybe it's just being sniffed as HTML?
  368. # [16:26] <Lachy> Philip, possibly. But, even if that's the case, file a bug, since it should be detected as XML based on the SVG file extension
  369. # [16:26] <Lachy> what happens if you change it to .xml?
  370. # [16:26] <Philip> If I change the first comment to <!--............."http://ns.adobe.com/AdobeIllustrator/10.0/"--> then it still gets parsed with no error; if I change it to <!--..............http://ns.adobe.com/AdobeIllustrator/10.0/"--> then there is an XML error
  371. # [16:26] <Lachy> wtf?
  372. # [16:28] <Lachy> <!-- .... --> is supposed to be a comment, so changing that really shouldn't affect anything.
  373. # [16:29] <Philip> That's why I was guessing sniffing
  374. # [16:30] * Joins: aroben (aroben@71.58.56.76)
  375. # [16:32] <Lachy> if you can't figure it out, just file a bug and attach the demo, and let some Linux QA work it out.
  376. # [16:41] <Lachy> According to the XHTML2 WG telcon IRC discussion, they just looked at this issue originally raised by Hixie about the style attribute. http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/Intro?id=7759;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
  377. # [16:42] <Lachy> From the very limited IRC logs, it appears they decided to drop the style attribute and allow <style> outside of the head in XHTML2 now.
  378. # [16:44] <Lachy> http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html#item03 - "RESOLUTION: @style is deprecated/eliminated; STYLE element can be used outside HEAD"
  379. # [16:45] <hsivonen> hey, that's like what HTML5 was like a while ago
  380. # [16:46] <Lachy> yep.
  381. # [16:48] <anne> they're learning fast
  382. # [16:49] * Joins: smedero (smedero@192.223.6.251)
  383. # [16:53] <Lachy> I'm curious if they intend to somehow make their style element support scoped stylesheets too
  384. # [17:02] * Philip simplifies the test case so it's thirteen kilobytes of ampersands
  385. # [17:03] <Philip> Lachy: https://bugs.opera.com/show_bug.cgi?id=340977
  386. # [17:04] <Lachy> Philip, thanks
  387. # [17:05] <Lachy> is that the smallest you could make the TC?
  388. # [17:07] <Philip> I could have made the front bit shorter
  389. # [17:08] <Philip> but just removing one & would make it start giving parse errors again
  390. # [17:08] <Lachy> ok.
  391. # [17:09] <Philip> Crazy software :-p
  392. # [17:10] <Lachy> Crazy authors writing large XML files!
  393. # [17:11] <Philip> That wasn't the author's fault, it was their software
  394. # [17:11] <gDashiva> It's a platform-specific limitation, it doesn't support crazy authors.
  395. # [17:12] <Philip> It was http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/67/GPCR.svg converted to XHTML+SVG using hsivonen's HTML2XML
  396. # [17:12] <Lachy> and our software was just fine till you came along and pointed out the bugs!
  397. # [17:13] <Lachy> :-)
  398. # [17:13] <Philip> (which turned all the newlines and tabs into &# things)
  399. # [17:13] <Philip> so I'll blame Adobe Illustrator, the Validator.nu parser, and Opera
  400. # [17:14] <Lachy> ok. I'll blame our linux desktop dept.
  401. # [17:14] <Philip> I don't exactly see how an XML parsing bug can be a desktop issue
  402. # [17:14] <Lachy> cause it only happens on linux and I don't want to blame it on core.
  403. # [17:15] <Philip> If I was trying to pretend I knew what I was talking about, I'd say it's probably triggered by Linux having different IO buffer sizes to the other platforms, or, er, something like that, I don't know :-(
  404. # [17:15] <gDashiva> And it's probably a feature to boot
  405. # [17:16] <Philip> (particularly since it works fine over HTTP)
  406. # [17:16] <Philip> It's not even misparsing as HTML, it's just truncating and displaying the document up to the point of the first XML error
  407. # [17:17] <Lachy> gDashiva, why have you prefixed your name with a g? Are you a new app from Google?
  408. # [17:17] <Philip> Argh, now it's crashing again whenever I try looking at all my SVGs
  409. # [17:18] <gDashiva> Lachy: I figured it would be less confusing than Dashi{1,}va turned out to be
  410. # [17:19] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  411. # [17:23] <Philip> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b5/Lindos5.svg gets misparsed, because it uses <font>
  412. # [17:23] * Joins: oedipus (BluFudge@70.21.188.175)
  413. # [17:33] <Philip> hsivonen: gradientunits is not case-preserved correctly
  414. # [17:36] <Philip> Input says: <linearGradient gradientUnits="userSpaceOnUse" id="XMLID_39_" x1="99.2266" x2="97.7227" y1="45.6704" y2="45.2392">
  415. # [17:36] <Philip> Output says: <linearGradient gradientunits="userSpaceOnUse" id="XMLID_39_" x1="99.2266" x2="97.7227" y1="45.6704" y2="45.2392">
  416. # [17:36] <Philip> (on http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/54/Microsoft_Windows_XP_Logo.svg)
  417. # [17:39] * Joins: sampablokuper (sampabloku@131.111.163.146)
  418. # [17:40] * sampablokuper is now known as spk_away
  419. # [17:41] * Joins: robburns (robburns@79.14.174.171)
  420. # [17:51] * Joins: oedipus_laptop (oedipus@70.21.188.175)
  421. # [17:57] * Quits: mjs (mjs@24.5.43.151) (Quit: mjs)
  422. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
  423. # [18:01] * trackbot is starting a teleconference
  424. # [18:01] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  425. # [18:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  426. # [18:01] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  427. # [18:01] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML
  428. # [18:01] <Zakim> "HTML" matches IA_XHTML2()4:00AM, and HTML_WG()12:00PM, trackbot
  429. # [18:01] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Issue Tracking Teleconference
  430. # [18:01] <trackbot> Date: 19 June 2008
  431. # [18:01] <anne> oh yay
  432. # [18:01] * anne looks for an agenda
  433. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  434. # [18:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  435. # [18:02] <MikeSmith> Regrets+ Steve_Faulkner
  436. # [18:02] <MikeSmith> Zakim, code?
  437. # [18:02] <Zakim> sorry, MikeSmith, I don't know what conference this is
  438. # [18:02] * Joins: Joshue (Josh@87.198.192.206)
  439. # [18:02] <MikeSmith> Zakim, this will be HTML
  440. # [18:02] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
  441. # [18:02] * Joins: ChrisWilson (cwilso@131.107.0.101)
  442. # [18:02] * anne finds http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2008AprJun/0021.html
  443. # [18:02] <MikeSmith> Zakim, code?
  444. # [18:02] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), MikeSmith
  445. # [18:02] * anne ... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2008AprJun/0022.html
  446. # [18:03] <Zakim> +??P3
  447. # [18:03] <oedipus_laptop> the xhtml2 virtual face2face ran my phone's batteries down - on IRC only
  448. # [18:03] <MikeSmith> Zakim, ??P3 is me
  449. # [18:03] <Zakim> +MikeSmith; got it
  450. # [18:03] <anne> Zakim, who is here?
  451. # [18:03] <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P1, Julian, MikeSmith
  452. # [18:03] <Zakim> On IRC I see ChrisWilson, Joshue, Zakim, oedipus_laptop, robburns, spk_away, oedipus, smedero, aroben, krijnh, Julian, MikeSmith, beowulf, Navarr, jmb, tlr, ROBOd, heycam, tH,
  453. # [18:03] <Zakim> ... scotfl, Yudai, deane, anne, gorm, trackbot, drry, rking3_, takkaria, hsivonen, hober, Dashiva, gDashiva, jgraham, shepazu, Shunsuke, DanC, inimino, Hixie, gsnedders, xover,
  454. # [18:03] <Zakim> ... Philip, RRSAgent, gavin_, matt, jeremy, deltab, t
  455. # [18:03] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  456. # [18:03] <Zakim> +??P8
  457. # [18:04] <ChrisWilson> Zakim, Microsoft is me
  458. # [18:04] <Zakim> +ChrisWilson; got it
  459. # [18:04] * oedipus_laptop welcome, back, chris
  460. # [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.425.462.aaaa
  461. # [18:04] <anne> Zakim, ??P8 is me
  462. # [18:04] <Zakim> +anne; got it
  463. # [18:04] * ChrisWilson thx
  464. # [18:04] <smedero> Zakim, +1.425.462.aaaa is me
  465. # [18:04] <Zakim> +smedero; got it
  466. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> Zakim, ??P1 is Joshue
  467. # [18:04] <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
  468. # [18:04] <Zakim> + +1.703.843.aabb
  469. # [18:04] * Joins: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217)
  470. # [18:04] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-BOS
  471. # [18:04] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
  472. # [18:05] <Zakim> +DanC
  473. # [18:05] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's noisy?
  474. # [18:05] <Zakim> + +1.814.308.aacc
  475. # [18:05] <Zakim> MikeSmith, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Joshue (29%), Julian (4%), anne (5%)
  476. # [18:05] <aroben> Zakim: aacc is me
  477. # [18:05] <Joshue> probably me, apologies will mute
  478. # [18:05] <DanC> Zakim, aacc is aroben
  479. # [18:05] <Zakim> +aroben; got it
  480. # [18:05] <aroben> Zakim, aacc is me
  481. # [18:05] <Zakim> sorry, aroben, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'
  482. # [18:05] <Joshue> no worrie
  483. # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P18
  484. # [18:05] <oedipus_laptop> zakim, aacc is aroben
  485. # [18:05] <Zakim> sorry, oedipus_laptop, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'
  486. # [18:05] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  487. # [18:05] <Zakim> On the phone I see Joshue (muted), Julian, MikeSmith, ChrisWilson, anne, smedero, +1.703.843.aabb, DanC, aroben, ??P18
  488. # [18:05] <Zakim> +Laura_Carlson
  489. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  490. # [18:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see Joshue (muted), Julian, MikeSmith, ChrisWilson, anne, smedero, +1.703.843.aabb, DanC, aroben, ??P18, Laura_Carlson
  491. # [18:06] * DanC wonders who joined just before Laura
  492. # [18:06] <oedipus_laptop> zakim, .aacc is aroben
  493. # [18:06] <Zakim> sorry, oedipus_laptop, I do not recognize a party named '.aacc'
  494. # [18:06] <oedipus_laptop> zakim, 814 is aroben
  495. # [18:06] <Zakim> sorry, oedipus_laptop, I do not recognize a party named '814'
  496. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> Zakim, +1.703 is Kelly_Gifford
  497. # [18:06] <Zakim> +Kelly_Gifford; got it
  498. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  499. # [18:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see Joshue (muted), Julian, MikeSmith, ChrisWilson, anne, smedero, Kelly_Gifford, DanC, aroben, ??P18, Laura_Carlson
  500. # [18:06] <oedipus_laptop> zakim, +1.814 is aroben
  501. # [18:06] <Zakim> sorry, oedipus_laptop, I do not recognize a party named '+1.814'
  502. # [18:06] <robburns> zakim, ??P18 is robburns
  503. # [18:06] <Zakim> +robburns; got it
  504. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  505. # [18:07] <Zakim> On the phone I see Joshue (muted), Julian, MikeSmith, ChrisWilson, anne, smedero, Kelly_Gifford, DanC, aroben, robburns, Laura_Carlson
  506. # [18:07] * spk_away is now known as sampablokuper
  507. # [18:07] * oedipus_laptop the xhtml2 virtual face2face ran my phone's batteries down - on IRC only
  508. # [18:07] * anne ... aah, "who's on the phone?", excellent
  509. # [18:07] * anne recommends getting skype
  510. # [18:08] * anne no batteries needed!
  511. # [18:08] <DanC> scribe: DanC
  512. # [18:08] * oedipus_laptop except on this laptop, which won't run on batteries!
  513. # [18:08] <MikeSmith> scribenick: DanC
  514. # [18:08] * DanC makes an exception to his "I only scribe when asked in advance" policy
  515. # [18:08] <MikeSmith> Topic: Convence meeting, review agenda
  516. # [18:08] <DanC> convene
  517. # [18:08] * oedipus_laptop i would volunteer, but i'm not on the phone, and i've been scribing since 4am EDST
  518. # [18:08] <MikeSmith> s/Convence/Convene/
  519. # [18:09] <Joshue> I promise to help with scribeing some day but not today as it is rather load where I am at the moment!
  520. # [18:09] <DanC> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
  521. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
  522. # [18:09] * aroben tries to learn what being the scribe entails
  523. # [18:10] <Joshue> yes, @summary discussion is needed.
  524. # [18:10] <smedero> aroben: document in IRC who said what on the telecon
  525. # [18:10] <DanC> MS reviews agenda...
  526. # [18:10] <MikeSmith> agenda+ @summary discussion, issue-33
  527. # [18:10] * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
  528. # [18:10] <DanC> issue-32?
  529. # [18:10] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-32
  530. # [18:10] <trackbot> ISSUE-32 -- Include a summary attribute for tables? -- RAISED
  531. # [18:10] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/32
  532. # [18:10] <Joshue> issue 32 is @summary
  533. # [18:10] <oedipus_laptop> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0114.html
  534. # [18:10] <oedipus_laptop> scribe's cheat sheet
  535. # [18:10] <aroben> thanks oedipus_laptop
  536. # [18:10] * sampablokuper seconds oedipus' comment: I'm also not on the phone today.
  537. # [18:10] <Julian> issue 33 is referer header, which should be on the agenda as well
  538. # [18:10] <Joshue> is pending review
  539. # [18:11] <oedipus_laptop> http://dev.w3.org/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
  540. # [18:11] <Joshue> @summary currently [1] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/32
  541. # [18:11] <oedipus_laptop> http://dev.w3.org/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
  542. # [18:11] <oedipus_laptop> http://www.w3.org/2002/03/RRSAgent
  543. # [18:11] <hober> Should our response to the XHTML2 WG be on the agenda (if it isn't already)?
  544. # [18:11] <oedipus_laptop> http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot.html
  545. # [18:11] <oedipus_laptop> hober, yes
  546. # [18:12] <DanC> Topic: issue-32 table-summary
  547. # [18:12] * Joins: kgiff (kgiff@64.236.128.12)
  548. # [18:12] <DanC> Zakim, remind us in 15 minutes to check the time
  549. # [18:12] <Zakim> ok, DanC
  550. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> I propose we discuss issue 32 and take until :22 minutes after on it at most
  551. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> issue-32?
  552. # [18:12] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-32
  553. # [18:12] <trackbot> ISSUE-32 -- Include a summary attribute for tables? -- RAISED
  554. # [18:12] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/32
  555. # [18:13] <DanC> (wierd... it says pending review on http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues )
  556. # [18:13] <Joshue> would like to see a new action item related to issue 32
  557. # [18:13] <smedero> (hrm... does, trackbot work from a cache?)
  558. # [18:13] <DanC> Josh: I'd like to see an action item where we review the reasons for removing table/@summary
  559. # [18:13] <DanC> q+
  560. # [18:13] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
  561. # [18:14] <DanC> MS: action on who?
  562. # [18:14] <Joshue> I will take this action item on
  563. # [18:14] <oedipus> q+ to ask rationale for its removal from a language evolved from HTML 4.01
  564. # [18:14] * Zakim sees DanC, oedipus on the speaker queue
  565. # [18:14] <Joshue> aplogies for any noise from my channel
  566. # [18:14] <oedipus> GJR will work with joshue if he wants
  567. # [18:14] * DanC recalls josh offered to do that a while ago and wonders when josh expects to be done
  568. # [18:15] * tlr is now known as tlr-afk
  569. # [18:15] * Quits: oedipus_laptop (oedipus@70.21.188.175) (Ping timeout)
  570. # [18:15] <hober> Is there any new information w.r.t. @summary?
  571. # [18:15] <DanC> MS: the target is an optional attribute, yes?
  572. # [18:16] <oedipus> is there any new rationale on why it should be dropped?
  573. # [18:16] <DanC> Joshue: right
  574. # [18:16] <anne> (I think the rationale from the editor was, fwiw, that there was not enough rationale for it to be added.)
  575. # [18:16] <Laura> Some applicable Issue 32 WAI docs
  576. # [18:16] <oedipus> but it was REMOVED not ADDED
  577. # [18:16] <Laura> Technique H73 for WCAG 2.0: Using the summary attribute of the table element to give an overview of data tables
  578. # [18:16] <Laura> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H73.html
  579. # [18:17] <Laura> Principle 1: Perceivable - Information and user interface components must be presentable to users in ways they can perceive
  580. # [18:17] <Laura> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#perceivable
  581. # [18:17] <Laura> Adaptable WCAG2 Guideline 1.3
  582. # [18:17] <DanC> msg from hixie where he dropped @summary http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0215.html
  583. # [18:17] <Laura> Create content that can be presented in different ways (for example simpler layout) without losing information or structure
  584. # [18:17] <MikeSmith> ACTION: Joshue to collate information on what spec status is with respect to table@summary, research backgound on rationale for retaining table@summary as a valid attribute
  585. # [18:17] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  586. # [18:17] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Joshue
  587. # [18:17] * RRSAgent records action 1
  588. # [18:17] <Laura> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#content-structure-separation
  589. # [18:17] <oedipus> q-
  590. # [18:17] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
  591. # [18:18] <Joshue> Maybe keep it as issue 32 and rename
  592. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> ACTION: MikeSmith to assign action to Josue to collate information on what spec status is with respect to table@summary, research background on rationale for retaining table@summary as a valid attribute
  593. # [18:18] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  594. # [18:18] * RRSAgent records action 2
  595. # [18:18] <trackbot> Created ACTION-66 - Assign action to Josue to collate information on what spec status is with respect to table@summary, research background on rationale for retaining table@summary as a valid attribute [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2008-06-26].
  596. # [18:18] <smedero> I can rename it... if anyone has a suggestion?
  597. # [18:18] <Joshue> just for tidy housekeeping
  598. # [18:18] <Joshue> @summary is very useful
  599. # [18:18] <hober> That principle 1 is a good argument for <p> before/after <table>, not @summary. That way all users benefit from the summary text!
  600. # [18:18] <Joshue> If you can find rational for dropping please forward to me
  601. # [18:18] <DanC> this seems to be a suggested renaming: mechanism to provide a summary of high density information easily discernible from a cursory visual glance
  602. # [18:18] <DanC> -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jun/0167.html
  603. # [18:18] <oedipus> hober, what summary does is what your brain does automatically when you visually process a table
  604. # [18:19] <oedipus> hober, there is no gestalt view for the non-visual user or those with very limited viewports
  605. # [18:19] <Laura> Table summary discussion on public-html:
  606. # [18:19] * MikeSmith notes to Julian that issue-33 is on deck
  607. # [18:19] <Laura> http://w3.markmail.org/search/%22summary%20attribute%22%20list:org.w3.public-html?page=1
  608. # [18:19] <Laura> http://w3.markmail.org/search/%22table%20summary%22%20list:org.w3.public-html?page=1
  609. # [18:19] <DanC> DanC: is a bunch of research overkill? it seemed to me that the editor skipped the issue because the title presumed a solution; a simple re-phrasing of the issue title seems like a good next step
  610. # [18:19] <Joshue> I have yet to see solid rational for removing @summary from spec
  611. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute Joshue
  612. # [18:19] <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
  613. # [18:19] <Joshue> I will mute
  614. # [18:19] <Joshue> thanks
  615. # [18:20] <Zakim> -robburns
  616. # [18:20] <smedero> My understanding is that Hixie & Hyatt haven't "removed" or "dropped" @summary... it just not in the spec at present. WHATWG's HTML 5 started with a clean slate and elements and attribtues were added as research and test cases came in.
  617. # [18:20] <DanC> MS: issues is tracked under my name due to technical limitations
  618. # [18:20] <DanC> DanC: estimated due date?
  619. # [18:21] <oedipus> smedero, but isn't HTML5 supposed to be "evolved from HTML 4.01" by charter?
  620. # [18:21] <robburns> lost my skype connection so I'm only on irc at the moment (trying to reestablish now)
  621. # [18:21] <DanC> Joshue: it may take time to get feedback from the WAI PF WG... how about 2 weeks
  622. # [18:21] <Joshue> Say two weeks for me to return on Issue 32 @summary
  623. # [18:21] <Joshue> Ok
  624. # [18:21] <oedipus> smedero, the objection is that what was added to html4x for a very definite reason, should either be retained or enhanced/improved, not dropped
  625. # [18:21] <Joshue> Thats it
  626. # [18:21] <smedero> oedipus, understood... just reiterating past statements from Hixie and trying to help folks understand why it is not in the spec. It was not intentionally removed as far as I can remember.
  627. # [18:22] <DanC> action-66?
  628. # [18:22] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-66
  629. # [18:22] <trackbot> ACTION-66 -- Michael(tm) Smith to assign action to Josue to collate information on what spec status is with respect to table@summary, research background on rationale for retaining table@summary as a valid attribute -- due 2008-07-03 -- OPEN
  630. # [18:22] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/66
  631. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute Joshue
  632. # [18:22] <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
  633. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> Action-66 is due August 4
  634. # [18:22] <oedipus> smedero, thanks - not implying that it was removed due to ill-intent, just that there is a history behind each of those elements and attributes which i want the WHAT WG to appreciate
  635. # [18:23] <smedero> oedipus, ok, clear!
  636. # [18:23] <DanC> smedero, "summary="" is not in." is clearly intentional. (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0215.html )
  637. # [18:23] * oedipus grin
  638. # [18:23] <hober> oedipus: It's quite possible to appreciate the history and still advocate dropping them. :)
  639. # [18:23] <MikeSmith> any other comments on the @summary issue for now?
  640. # [18:23] <oedipus> hober, yeah, but not without discussion
  641. # [18:23] <smedero> DanC: Ahh, good find there.
  642. # [18:23] <DanC> issue-33?
  643. # [18:23] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-33
  644. # [18:23] <trackbot> ISSUE-33 -- spec requires non-compliant Referer header -- RAISED
  645. # [18:23] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/33
  646. # [18:23] <MikeSmith> Topic: issue 33
  647. # [18:24] <DanC> Topic: ISSUE-33 ping-referer
  648. # [18:24] <Joshue> @summary is very useful well supported. Am interested in looking forward at other solutions but it must be based on a solid rational
  649. # [18:24] <DanC> JR: the offending text is no longer there
  650. # [18:24] <DanC> ... so it seems reasonable to close this issue, but I wasn't sure about whether to do that myself
  651. # [18:25] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  652. # [18:25] <DanC> MS: closing issues in calls seems good so that more than one person considers it and so we have a record
  653. # [18:25] <Joshue> The Google data which cites that shows the summary attribute on ~2.5% of tables. Note: The following information was collected by Google in December 2005. Does not of itself mean that the attribute is not useful. It means that it is underutilised and that is all. [1]
  654. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> Any objections to closing this out?
  655. # [18:26] <oedipus> no objection to ping-refer
  656. # [18:26] <DanC> DanC: we can't make WG decisions without async participation; seems easier to just withdraw the issue
  657. # [18:26] <DanC> MikeSmith: yeah; it hasn't really been discussed by the group
  658. # [18:26] <DanC> close issue-33
  659. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> issue-33?
  660. # [18:26] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-33
  661. # [18:26] <trackbot> ISSUE-33 -- spec requires non-compliant Referer header -- RAISED
  662. # [18:26] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/33
  663. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> trackbot, close issue-33
  664. # [18:27] <trackbot> Sorry, MikeSmith, I don't understand 'trackbot, close issue-33'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  665. # [18:27] <Zakim> DanC, you asked to be reminded at this time to check the time
  666. # [18:27] <smedero> I'll do that... I'm on the web interface now.
  667. # [18:27] <DanC> issue-33?
  668. # [18:27] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-33
  669. # [18:27] <trackbot> ISSUE-33 -- [withdrawn] spec requires non-compliant Referer header -- CLOSED
  670. # [18:27] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/33
  671. # [18:27] <smedero> ahh there we go.
  672. # [18:27] <robburns> zakim, IPcaller is robburns
  673. # [18:27] <Zakim> +robburns; got it
  674. # [18:28] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  675. # [18:28] <DanC> MikeSmith goes back to agenda review... raised issues?
  676. # [18:28] <DanC> ... or XHTML 2 response?
  677. # [18:29] <oedipus> danC, this one: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jun/0251.html ?
  678. # [18:29] <DanC> ... or overdue issues?
  679. # [18:30] * oedipus overdue
  680. # [18:30] <DanC> Topic: update on overdue actions
  681. # [18:30] <DanC> action-14?
  682. # [18:30] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-14
  683. # [18:30] <trackbot> ACTION-14 -- Chris Wilson to get more information on MS patent review with <canvas> -- due 2008-06-12 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  684. # [18:30] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/14
  685. # [18:30] <oedipus> hard deadline of end of month, right?
  686. # [18:30] <hober> I thought the deadline was tomorrow
  687. # [18:30] <hober> (the 20th)
  688. # [18:30] <DanC> CW: we're reviewing this and all of HTML 5, noting the 20 Jun deadline...
  689. # [18:31] <oedipus> hober, you are right
  690. # [18:31] <DanC> ... if the scope of <canvas> grows, that would mean more work
  691. # [18:31] <oedipus> do people know about the canvas-api list?
  692. # [18:31] <DanC> CW: this action dates from before 1st WD, and the 1st WD pretty much obviates this action
  693. # [18:31] <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/
  694. # [18:32] <DanC> close action-14
  695. # [18:32] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-14.
  696. # [18:32] <trackbot> ACTION-14 get more information on MS patent review with <canvas> closed
  697. # [18:32] <DanC> action-29?
  698. # [18:32] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-29
  699. # [18:32] <trackbot> ACTION-29 -- Dan Connolly to follow up on the idea of a free-software-compatible license for a note on HTML authoring -- due 2008-06-12 -- OPEN
  700. # [18:32] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/29
  701. # [18:32] <MikeSmith> DanC: I don't know whether this actually ever got to the management team for an actual yes/no
  702. # [18:33] <anne> I note that <canvas> recently gained a text API that is part of the second WD
  703. # [18:33] <oedipus> anne, yes
  704. # [18:33] <MikeSmith> action-29
  705. # [18:33] <MikeSmith> action-29?
  706. # [18:33] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-29
  707. # [18:33] <trackbot> ACTION-29 -- Dan Connolly to follow up on the idea of a free-software-compatible license for a note on HTML authoring -- due 2008-06-26 -- OPEN
  708. # [18:33] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/29
  709. # [18:33] <anne> Besides ImageData for easier manipulation that's probably the most major addition.
  710. # [18:33] <DanC> action-38?
  711. # [18:33] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-38
  712. # [18:33] <trackbot> ACTION-38 -- Dan Connolly to chairs to review need for amending charter with Director -- due 2008-05-22 -- OPEN
  713. # [18:33] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/38
  714. # [18:33] <oedipus> anne, agree
  715. # [18:34] <hober> what sort of charter amendment?
  716. # [18:34] <DanC> continues
  717. # [18:35] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@71.204.153.3)
  718. # [18:35] <anne> hober, not clear yet
  719. # [18:35] <DanC> hober, the question is whether the scope of the HTML 5 draft is so different from the charter that either (a) the charter should change or (b) the spec should change
  720. # [18:35] <anne> or (c) that all is fine ;)
  721. # [18:35] <smedero> Particularly the charter issue came up at Boston TPAC with regards to <canvas>
  722. # [18:36] <DanC> right, anne, I wrote "whether"
  723. # [18:36] <DanC> action-56?
  724. # [18:36] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-56
  725. # [18:36] <trackbot> ACTION-56 -- Chris Wilson to wilson to follow up with Forms WG to make sure they understand this plan of action by 5/1/2008 -- due 2008-06-12 -- OPEN
  726. # [18:36] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/56
  727. # [18:36] <anne> DanC, fair enough
  728. # [18:36] * DanC considers agenda + next steps on Forms
  729. # [18:37] <oedipus> task force runs out soon - need to plan for what comes after it turns into a pumpkin
  730. # [18:37] <ChrisWilson> zakim, who's on the phone?
  731. # [18:37] <Zakim> On the phone I see Joshue (muted), Julian, MikeSmith, ChrisWilson, anne, smedero, Kelly_Gifford, DanC, aroben, Laura_Carlson, robburns
  732. # [18:37] <DanC> CW: yes, it's time to consider what to do next since we don't have much in the way of results from the forms TF
  733. # [18:38] <oedipus> forms has been thinking nuts and bolts, while the TF charter anne drafted had abstract guidelines as deliverable
  734. # [18:38] <oedipus> s/requirements/guidelines
  735. # [18:39] <oedipus> s/guidelines/requirements
  736. # [18:39] * oedipus doh!
  737. # [18:39] * Lachy waves
  738. # [18:39] * Lachy will dial in
  739. # [18:40] <oedipus> collision of expectations
  740. # [18:40] <DanC> action-56?
  741. # [18:40] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-56
  742. # [18:40] <trackbot> ACTION-56 -- Chris Wilson to chris Wilson to work with MikeSmith and DanC on (re)plan of action for forms coordination with Forms WG -- due 2008-06-26 -- OPEN
  743. # [18:40] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/56
  744. # [18:40] <Lachy> Zakim, passcode?
  745. # [18:40] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Lachy
  746. # [18:40] <DanC> action-61?
  747. # [18:40] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-61
  748. # [18:40] <trackbot> ACTION-61 -- Dan Connolly to ensure HTML WG responds to PF WG on Omitting alt Attribute http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Feb/0082.html -- due 2008-05-31 -- OPEN
  749. # [18:40] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/61
  750. # [18:40] <aroben> MikeSmith: we seem to have skipped action-57
  751. # [18:41] <MikeSmith> aroben: thanks, checking now
  752. # [18:41] <Zakim> + +2
  753. # [18:41] <Lachy> Zakim, I am +2
  754. # [18:41] <Zakim> +Lachy; got it
  755. # [18:42] <Joshue> Steve could not make the call today, so he sends apologies.
  756. # [18:42] <DanC> MS: this seems overtaken by other work on issue-31 missing-alt
  757. # [18:42] <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jun/0205.html
  758. # [18:42] <DanC> close action-61
  759. # [18:42] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-61.
  760. # [18:42] <trackbot> ACTION-61 Ensure HTML WG responds to PF WG on Omitting alt Attribute http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Feb/0082.html closed
  761. # [18:42] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's noisy?
  762. # [18:43] <Zakim> MikeSmith, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Lachy (8%), MikeSmith (64%), ChrisWilson (11%), anne (20%)
  763. # [18:43] <oedipus> AlG call for participation in ALT discussion: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jun/0205.html
  764. # [18:43] <DanC> DanC: added action-61 to make sure we responded as a WG to the PF WG's request
  765. # [18:43] * anne ... darth father reporting
  766. # [18:43] <DanC> action-57?
  767. # [18:43] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-57
  768. # [18:43] <trackbot> ACTION-57 -- Chris Wilson to respond to extensibility discussion -- due 2008-07-01 -- OPEN
  769. # [18:43] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/57
  770. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> ChrisW will follow up on action-57
  771. # [18:44] <DanC> (trying to connect action-57 to the distributed extensibility issue... failing)
  772. # [18:44] <DanC> action-62?
  773. # [18:44] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-62
  774. # [18:44] <trackbot> ACTION-62 -- Dan Connolly to ensure HTML WG response to XHTML 2 WG re name of XML serialization http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Oct/0385.html -- due 2008-05-31 -- OPEN
  775. # [18:44] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/62
  776. # [18:44] <oedipus> is action 57 in response to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jun/0251.html
  777. # [18:45] <hober> oedipus: s/57/62/
  778. # [18:45] <oedipus> hober, thanks
  779. # [18:45] <DanC> Danc: again, this is a request from a peer WG and I felt obliged to track it until our WG had decided something and responded
  780. # [18:45] <DanC> MS: want to continue?
  781. # [18:45] <DanC> agenda + XHTML 2 response
  782. # [18:45] * Zakim notes agendum 2 added
  783. # [18:46] <DanC> action-63?
  784. # [18:46] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-63
  785. # [18:46] <trackbot> ACTION-63 -- Dan Connolly to ensure HTML WG response to 6 Jun 2007 PF WG msg re table headers http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jun/0145.html -- due 2008-06-12 -- OPEN
  786. # [18:46] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/63
  787. # [18:47] <DanC> DanC: this should be connected to the table-headers issue; can't seem to get tracker to do that
  788. # [18:47] <Lachy> yes, headers="" is on TD elements
  789. # [18:47] <DanC> MS: I think some spec changes have been made related to table headers
  790. # [18:47] <smedero> The email DanC linked to earlier notes that header is in the spec: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0215.html
  791. # [18:48] <DanC> Anne: right; current draft of HTML 5 includes table headers
  792. # [18:48] <DanC> MS: so perhaps this is a non-issue?
  793. # [18:48] <Lachy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0215.html Hixie's response about headers=""
  794. # [18:49] <anne> It's in http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/tabular.html#headers for instance
  795. # [18:49] <oedipus> quoth hixie: ""Given the problem of conveying the meaning of tables to users who are not able to directly see the tables, solutions (such as headers="") have to be evaluated on the basis of whether or not they address the problem better than not having the solution at all""
  796. # [18:50] <oedipus> quoth hixie: "Conclusion: headers="" probably neither helps nor harms this page in existing user agents."
  797. # [18:53] <Lachy> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tabular.html#the-td headers attribute defined in spec here
  798. # [18:54] <MikeSmith> Joshue: you there?
  799. # [18:54] <DanC> DanC: one possibility for turning http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0215.html into a WG decision is to mail the WG saying "any objections?" though I'd rather we had test cases when we close issues
  800. # [18:54] <oedipus> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tabular.html#headers
  801. # [18:54] <smedero> I believe Ben Millard's research on headers was instrumental in the March 2008 decision: http://sitesurgeon.co.uk/tables/
  802. # [18:55] <DanC> ACTION DanC: propose a test case regarding table headers/id
  803. # [18:55] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  804. # [18:55] * RRSAgent records action 3
  805. # [18:55] <trackbot> Created ACTION-67 - Propose a test case regarding table headers/id [on Dan Connolly - due 2008-06-26].
  806. # [18:55] <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute Joshue
  807. # [18:55] <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
  808. # [18:56] <Joshue> Sorry Dan!
  809. # [18:56] <Laura> header examples: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/DroppedAttributeHeaders#head-66e4ada3f06ead1e14e5172f57405120a0b2e02c
  810. # [18:56] <DanC> well, it was worth a try
  811. # [18:56] <DanC> Laura, care to pick one of those?
  812. # [18:56] * DanC is a little lost now; are we back to agenda review?
  813. # [18:57] * DanC doesn't have much time
  814. # [18:57] <oedipus> also: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ExplicitAssociationPatterns#head-27604d3fc1ffdb981a52a4144d36777d598016a2
  815. # [18:57] * DanC realizes he has another telcon at the top of the hour
  816. # [18:58] * Joins: mjs (mjs@71.142.160.125)
  817. # [18:58] <smedero> Bugzilla issues changed this week: http://tinyurl.com/6qrymq
  818. # [18:58] <robburns> oedipus we're now discussing issue-tracker issues
  819. # [18:58] <anne> DanC, another example: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_02.html
  820. # [18:58] <oedipus> headers/id in spec: http://a11y.org/kafs AND http://a11y.org/kafs-gta
  821. # [18:59] <smedero> DanC: How about a <table>+header example from the W3C itself: http://www.w3.org/QA/TheMatrix
  822. # [18:59] <oedipus> s/in spec/in a spec
  823. # [18:59] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/raised
  824. # [18:59] <smedero> (Well, at least that should use header=""... I'm not sure it does scanning the source)
  825. # [18:59] <oedipus> matrix doesn't use headers/id
  826. # [19:00] <smedero> : (
  827. # [19:00] <DanC> Topic: Triage of raised issues
  828. # [19:00] <DanC> issue-1?
  829. # [19:00] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-1
  830. # [19:00] <trackbot> ISSUE-1 -- hyperlink auditing requires use of unsafe HTTP method -- RAISED
  831. # [19:00] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/1
  832. # [19:00] <DanC> JR: this has been discussed, resulting in divided opinions
  833. # [19:00] <anne> prolly peanuts compared to alt=""
  834. # [19:00] <anne> :)
  835. # [19:01] <oedipus> smedero, not even scope on matrix
  836. # [19:01] * Quits: tlr-afk (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Quit: tlr-afk)
  837. # [19:02] <oedipus> smedero, headers/id are used in tables which are fundamental part of http://a11y.org/kafs (RFC track spec)
  838. # [19:02] <DanC> DanC: is there more data to get?
  839. # [19:02] * Quits: sampablokuper (sampabloku@131.111.163.146) (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Po-ta-to, boil em, mash em, stick em in a stew.)
  840. # [19:02] <DanC> JR: I don't think so
  841. # [19:03] <Joshue> gotta go. I will start work on action item 32 re @summary and fine tune the wording of the action item in order to ensure that it correctly represents the issue. Bye
  842. # [19:03] <DanC> MS: this is clearly a WG issue, since it's been discussed considerably and it involves another WG
  843. # [19:03] <Zakim> -Joshue
  844. # [19:03] * ChrisWilson is dropping off now
  845. # [19:03] * Parts: Joshue (Josh@87.198.192.206)
  846. # [19:04] <DanC> DanC: so how about putting the question?
  847. # [19:04] <Lachy> shouldn't we wait till Hixie actually looks at that section of the spec before we close the issue?
  848. # [19:04] <Zakim> -ChrisWilson
  849. # [19:04] <DanC> MS: let's give it some time in OPEN state first
  850. # [19:04] <anne> Lachy, he has...
  851. # [19:04] <Lachy> ok, then close it.
  852. # [19:04] <Laura> Dan: Joe Clark's http://joeclark.org/access/cinema/reviews/
  853. # [19:05] * Quits: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217) (Quit: Laura)
  854. # [19:05] <anne> Lachy, that's not how it works
  855. # [19:05] <Zakim> -Laura_Carlson
  856. # [19:05] <DanC> ah... good... that's one concrete page, Laura. the next step is to reduce it to a small example. any help doing that is appreciated
  857. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> Scribnick: MikeSmith
  858. # [19:06] <MikeSmith> Scribenick: MikeSmith
  859. # [19:06] * DanC wanders off to next telcon...
  860. # [19:06] <MikeSmith> MikeSmith will take issue-1 to the group for review
  861. # [19:06] * Lachy doesn't think issues should remain open if the editor has already looked at it and either fixed the spec or rejected it.
  862. # [19:06] <oedipus> danC: there are smaller tables with id/headers and such at http://a11y.org/a11y-dom-api
  863. # [19:06] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  864. # [19:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see Julian, MikeSmith, anne, smedero, Kelly_Gifford, DanC, aroben, robburns, Lachy
  865. # [19:07] * Lachy doesn't mind.
  866. # [19:07] <Julian> q+
  867. # [19:07] * Zakim sees DanC, Julian on the speaker queue
  868. # [19:07] <MikeSmith> ack DanC
  869. # [19:07] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  870. # [19:07] <MikeSmith> ack Julian
  871. # [19:07] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  872. # [19:13] <anne> also see end of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Nov/0085.html fwiw
  873. # [19:13] <anne> (revisit the feature if it fails to get implemented)
  874. # [19:15] <MikeSmith> issue-5?
  875. # [19:15] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-5
  876. # [19:15] <trackbot> ISSUE-5 -- Is there a need to expand the available <button> types to include 'radio' or 'toggle'? -- RAISED
  877. # [19:15] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/5
  878. # [19:16] <smedero> There hasn't been discussion of that feature outside of the f2f... meeting.
  879. # [19:17] <MikeSmith> not taking this up at this point because there has not been significant discussion on this list, no other WG asking for this
  880. # [19:18] <Julian> issue-6?
  881. # [19:18] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-6
  882. # [19:18] <trackbot> ISSUE-6 -- Pros and cons of keeping video and audio in the scope of the HTML working group -- RAISED
  883. # [19:18] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/6
  884. # [19:19] <MikeSmith> the fact that we have already published a two WDs with video and audio in them has to some degree made this a moot point
  885. # [19:20] <MikeSmith> this is a candidate for just being closed
  886. # [19:20] * oedipus mikeTMsmith - as far as issue 51 (http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/51) i think that it can be closed by noting: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jun/0182.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jun/0183.html)
  887. # [19:20] <Julian> issue-7?
  888. # [19:20] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-7
  889. # [19:20] <trackbot> ISSUE-7 -- codec support and the <video> element -- RAISED
  890. # [19:20] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/7
  891. # [19:21] <MikeSmith> issue 7 remains important but getting resolution remains outside the control of the HTML WG
  892. # [19:22] <Julian> issue-9?
  893. # [19:22] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-9
  894. # [19:22] <trackbot> ISSUE-9 -- how synchronization works for <video> is unclear -- RAISED
  895. # [19:22] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/9
  896. # [19:22] <MikeSmith> I think issue 9 does not need to be taken up by the group
  897. # [19:22] <smedero> I've got to drop off now, regrets.
  898. # [19:23] <Zakim> -smedero
  899. # [19:23] <MikeSmith> another issue that could go to bugzilla, maybe
  900. # [19:23] <oedipus> i have to drop off too, but wanted to note 2 things:
  901. # [19:23] <Julian> issue-10?
  902. # [19:23] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-10
  903. # [19:23] <trackbot> ISSUE-10 -- how similar should SMIL and <video> attribute names be? -- RAISED
  904. # [19:23] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/10
  905. # [19:23] <oedipus> as far as issue 35 (http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/35) i noted in the notes that the issue should be closed due to the erroneous nature of its underlying assumption and provided details and pointers
  906. # [19:23] <oedipus> as far as issue 51 (http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/51) i think that it can be closed by noting: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jun/0182.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jun/0183.html)
  907. # [19:23] * oedipus thanks
  908. # [19:24] <smedero> I can move certain Tracker issues to Bugzilla if that's what you'd like to see happen MikeSmith. Assign an action, email me directly, or ping me on IRC...
  909. # [19:24] * Joins: jgraham_ (james@81.86.219.217)
  910. # [19:24] <MikeSmith> smedero: OK, I look into it
  911. # [19:25] * Quits: jgraham_ (james@81.86.219.217) (Quit: I get eaten by the worms)
  912. # [19:26] <MikeSmith> anne: I'm not sure I agree with oedipus statement that this should be closed
  913. # [19:26] <MikeSmith> ... Henri Sivonen has discussed this too, and I think it's on Hixie's TODO list ...
  914. # [19:26] <MikeSmith> ... and perhaps we should wait until we have more implementation experience ...
  915. # [19:27] <Lachy> Issue 35 should definitely remain open. Gregory's arguments against it don't make sense
  916. # [19:27] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30)
  917. # [19:28] <hober> agreed
  918. # [19:28] * anne will be at reboot.dk promoting a free Web
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  922. # [19:31] <MikeSmith> so I note that oedipus has written, "values of the attribute are not CURIEs [CURIE], but simply strings."
  923. # [19:31] <anne> AvK: I don't think the role attribute module actually reflects what implementations do
  924. # [19:32] <anne> ... the implementations just treat them as string values not qnames or whatever
  925. # [19:32] <anne> ... seems much simpler for everyone involved...
  926. # [19:33] <anne> AvK: HTML and XML would be the same as far as I can tell, but no qnames
  927. # [19:33] <anne> ... euh, curies?
  928. # [19:33] <anne> Zakim, drop me
  929. # [19:33] <Zakim> anne is being disconnected
  930. # [19:34] <Zakim> -anne
  931. # [19:34] <Zakim> -Lachy
  932. # [19:34] <MikeSmith> we got up through issue-10 in our review of raised issues
  933. # [19:34] <Zakim> -Julian
  934. # [19:34] <Zakim> -aroben
  935. # [19:34] <Zakim> -MikeSmith
  936. # [19:34] <robburns> Zakim, drop me
  937. # [19:34] <Zakim> robburns is being disconnected
  938. # [19:34] <Zakim> -Kelly_Gifford
  939. # [19:34] <Zakim> -robburns
  940. # [19:34] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  941. # [19:34] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  942. # [19:34] * Quits: jgraham_ (james@81.86.219.217) (Quit: I get eaten by the worms)
  943. # [19:35] <MikeSmith> Zakim, bye
  944. # [19:35] <Zakim> leaving. As of this point the attendees were Julian, MikeSmith, ChrisWilson, anne, smedero, Joshue, +1.703.843.aabb, DanC, +1.814.308.aacc, aroben, Laura_Carlson, Kelly_Gifford,
  945. # [19:35] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  946. # [19:35] <Zakim> ... robburns, +2, Lachy
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  949. # [19:43] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  950. # [19:43] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  951. # [19:44] <MikeSmith> Chair: MikeSmith
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  965. # [21:32] <Laura> Dan: For your action 67, if you want a smaller table with id/headers than the Joe Clark example this one from WCAG2 might be better
  966. # [21:32] <Laura> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H43.html
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  970. # [22:05] <Philip> And if you want some tables with 'headers' to test the kind of error handling that's necessary to cope with the real world, try http://h21007.www2.hp.com/portal/site/dspp/menuitem.863c3e4cbcdc3f3515b49c108973a801/?ciid=e308a8ea6ce02110a8ea6ce02110275d6e10RCRD (headers=contentunitIDA3MD2C, referring to non-existent ID)
  971. # [22:06] <Philip> and http://www.sakthifoundation.org/ (headers="1", no idea what that's meant to be)
  972. # [22:07] <Philip> and http://www.elazigtso.org.tr/ (headers="15", same lack of idea)
  973. # [22:08] <Philip> and http://www.bvg.de/ (headers="vm_col_3", but only vm_col_1 and 2 and 4 are defined)
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  976. # [22:11] <Philip> http://www.imajyayinevi.com/turkce/index.aspx headers="180", http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/ headers="34" - why are all these people doing this?!
  977. # [22:12] <Philip> But about half the pages I see with headers seem to be non-bogus, so it's pretty good overall
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  980. # [22:37] <smedero> Philip: That one example with headers="34" ... also has a <table> and several <td> with a height="34" ... the one <td> with headers="34" is missing the height attribute... looks like a WYSIWYG editor error
  981. # [22:37] <smedero> but yeah, those are some nice examples of headers="" misuse...
  982. # [22:37] <smedero> as far testing goes.
  983. # [22:39] <Philip> At least they're easy problems to detect - the most dangerous case is when headers points to an id that's unrelated to the data
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The end :)