/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-07-10 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  5. # [00:08] <Hixie> the reason i never sent an annoucnement to public-html about websockets is that before i'd even sent the announcement to the whatwg list, someone on the public-html list had already posted about it
  6. # [00:08] <Hixie> so public-html actually got notified before the whatwg list
  7. # [00:09] <Hixie> in fact, that person was julian
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  9. # [00:09] <Hixie> he posted to public-html about web sockets 3 days before the whatwg list heard about it
  10. # [00:10] <Lachy> Hixie, who complained about you not sending an announcement?
  11. # [00:10] <Hixie> julian, earlier in this channel, unless i misunderstood something
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  18. # [01:08] <heycam> Lachy, you called earlier?
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  65. # [08:55] <anne> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wfreq/results 32 replies versus 310 non-replies
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  104. # [17:12] * DanC changes topic to 'HTML WG telecon 10 July 16:00UTC http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda | this channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
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  111. # [17:41] <DanC> Zakim, this will be html
  112. # [17:41] <Zakim> ok, DanC; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start in 23 minutes
  113. # [17:41] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  114. # [17:41] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-html-wg-irc
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  116. # [17:50] <Lachy> what's on the agenda today?
  117. # [17:51] <oedipus> lachy, if things hold to form, http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
  118. # [17:52] <oedipus> mikeTMsmith's announcement: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2008JulSep/0000.html
  119. # [17:52] <Lachy> if you're talking about web forms stuff, that might be interesting and I can call in.
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  122. # [17:53] <oedipus> MikeSmith, are you around - can you answer lachy's query about web forms stuff
  123. # [17:54] <oedipus> Web Forms Features Survey (still open for a few hours) - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wfreq/
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  126. # [17:59] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wfreq/results
  127. # [17:59] <oedipus> 35 votes so far
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  130. # [18:02] <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
  131. # [18:02] * trackbot is starting a teleconference
  132. # [18:03] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  133. # [18:03] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  134. # [18:03] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML
  135. # [18:03] <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
  136. # [18:03] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Issue Tracking Teleconference
  137. # [18:03] <trackbot> Date: 10 July 2008
  138. # [18:03] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
  139. # [18:03] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
  140. # [18:03] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  141. # [18:03] <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
  142. # [18:03] <oedipus> mike, do you need a scribe?
  143. # [18:03] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
  144. # [18:03] <ChrisWilson> zakim, Microsoft is me
  145. # [18:03] <Zakim> +ChrisWilson; got it
  146. # [18:04] * oedipus i'm going to be locally muted for the most part anyway
  147. # [18:04] <Zakim> +??P7
  148. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> Zakim, ??P7 is me
  149. # [18:04] <Zakim> +MikeSmith; got it
  150. # [18:04] <Joshue> Can't make call will be on IRC for a short while, apologies
  151. # [18:04] <Joshue> Hi all BTW
  152. # [18:04] <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
  153. # [18:04] <Zakim> +Julian
  154. # [18:04] <MikeSmith> Regrets+ Joshue
  155. # [18:05] <MikeSmith> Regrets+ DaveSinger
  156. # [18:05] <MikeSmith> Joshue: you going to be available on IRC at least?
  157. # [18:05] <Joshue> Yup
  158. # [18:05] <MikeSmith> OK
  159. # [18:05] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  160. # [18:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  161. # [18:05] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-work
  162. # [18:05] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
  163. # [18:05] <Zakim> +DanC
  164. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> Joshue, is there somebody else who can talk about action 54 on the call?
  165. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  166. # [18:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, ChrisWilson, MikeSmith, Cynthia_Shelly, Julian, DanC
  167. # [18:06] <Joshue> give me a second I will try again..
  168. # [18:07] * oedipus i'm offering to minute because i can't listen, type and think at the same time
  169. # [18:08] <Joshue> I am in Austria at the moment
  170. # [18:08] <MikeSmith> Scribenick: oedipus
  171. # [18:08] <MikeSmith> Scribe: Gregory
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  173. # [18:08] <oedipus> chair? MikeSmith?
  174. # [18:08] <oedipus> chair: MikeSmith
  175. # [18:09] <Zakim> +??P2
  176. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
  177. # [18:09] <oedipus> zakim ??P2 is Josh_O_Connor
  178. # [18:09] <oedipus> zakim +??P2 is Josh_O_Connor
  179. # [18:09] <oedipus> zakim, +??P2 is Josh_O_Connor
  180. # [18:09] <Zakim> sorry, oedipus, I do not recognize a party named '+??P2'
  181. # [18:09] <MikeSmith> Topic: convene meeting, review agenda
  182. # [18:09] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  183. # [18:09] <oedipus> TOPIC: Action Item 54 Update
  184. # [18:09] <Julian> zakim, ??P2 is Josh_O_Connor
  185. # [18:09] <Zakim> +Josh_O_Connor; got it
  186. # [18:09] <Lachy> Zakim, passcode?
  187. # [18:09] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Lachy
  188. # [18:10] <DanC> let's not use opaque numbers for topics, please
  189. # [18:10] <oedipus> JC: status is still in review; Steven Faulkner withdrew from group
  190. # [18:10] <Joshue> We are awaiting response from PF
  191. # [18:10] <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
  192. # [18:10] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  193. # [18:10] <DanC> s/Action Item 54 Update/missing-alt ISSUE-31 action-54/
  194. # [18:10] <oedipus> MC: josh can replace SF on Issue Tracker; will assume responsibility for StevenF's issues
  195. # [18:11] <DanC> (new headers issue? different from ISSUE-20 table-headers ? hmm.)
  196. # [18:11] <oedipus> JC: thanks for tracker privileges - @headers issue (issue 66?) done work on wiki - also made formal request of PF on @headers issue
  197. # [18:11] <Zakim> +??P5
  198. # [18:12] <oedipus> JC: @summary also under investigation and being documented on wiki
  199. # [18:12] <oedipus> MS: sounds fine
  200. # [18:12] <Lachy> Zakim, I am P5
  201. # [18:12] <Zakim> sorry, Lachy, I do not see a party named 'P5'
  202. # [18:12] <Zakim> -Josh_O_Connor
  203. # [18:12] <Lachy> Zakim, I am +??P5
  204. # [18:12] <Zakim> sorry, Lachy, I do not see a party named '+??P5'
  205. # [18:12] <DanC> Zakim, ??P5 is Lachy
  206. # [18:12] <Zakim> +Lachy; got it
  207. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute Lachy
  208. # [18:12] <Zakim> Lachy should now be muted
  209. # [18:12] <DanC> Zakim, mute Lachy temporarily
  210. # [18:12] <Zakim> Lachy was already muted, DanC
  211. # [18:12] <oedipus> i/(new headers/TOPIC: TABLE issues & actions update
  212. # [18:12] <Joshue> @summary wiki is updated (Action Item 66)
  213. # [18:12] * Lachy my mic is muted, you shouldn't have been getting noise
  214. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute Lachy
  215. # [18:13] <Zakim> Lachy should no longer be muted
  216. # [18:13] <oedipus> MS: wait for responses until next week on SteveF and Josh's stuff
  217. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute Lachy
  218. # [18:13] <Zakim> Lachy should now be muted
  219. # [18:13] * oedipus lachy is loud
  220. # [18:13] * DanC gets wind noise when lachy unmutes
  221. # [18:13] <Joshue> I will add @headers issue to tracker shortly (Buzilla 5822)
  222. # [18:13] <Joshue> Bye y'all
  223. # [18:13] * Parts: Joshue (Josh@140.78.165.27)
  224. # [18:13] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  225. # [18:13] <Zakim> On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, ChrisWilson, MikeSmith, Julian, DanC, [Microsoft], Lachy (muted)
  226. # [18:13] <Lachy> ok, that's weird
  227. # [18:13] <DanC> Joshue, pls review -- darn
  228. # [18:13] <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/TableAccessibility
  229. # [18:14] <oedipus> josh - other URIs from ESW?
  230. # [18:14] * oedipus doh!
  231. # [18:14] <oedipus> TOPIC: Agenda Shaping
  232. # [18:14] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
  233. # [18:14] <oedipus> MS: any additional agenda items other than what is on tracker?
  234. # [18:14] <Julian> q+
  235. # [18:14] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  236. # [18:15] <oedipus> ack julian
  237. # [18:15] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  238. # [18:15] <smedero> DanC - there's no new @headers issue. ISSUE-20 remains the only collection point on @headers I can see?
  239. # [18:15] <oedipus> JR: TAG going to discuss content type missing - maybe need to discuss here
  240. # [18:15] <oedipus> MS: DanC - comments?
  241. # [18:15] <oedipus> MS: URI for TAG announcement
  242. # [18:15] <Zakim> +laura
  243. # [18:16] <oedipus> JR: on TAG meeting agenda for today
  244. # [18:16] <Julian> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/07/10-agenda
  245. # [18:16] * MikeSmith waves to laura
  246. # [18:16] * oedipus laura, agenda requests?
  247. # [18:16] * Joins: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217)
  248. # [18:16] <smedero> ISSUE-20 seems sufficiently broad to cover the discussion going in bug 5822.
  249. # [18:16] * oedipus laura, agenda requests?
  250. # [18:16] <Julian> s/missing/sniffing/
  251. # [18:16] * oedipus thanks JR
  252. # [18:16] <oedipus> MS: specifically about MS?
  253. # [18:16] <oedipus> DC: what prompted it
  254. # [18:16] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  255. # [18:16] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
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  257. # [18:16] <oedipus> DC: TAG discussions wide-ranging
  258. # [18:17] <oedipus> MS: pre-discussion for DC to take to TAG?
  259. # [18:17] <oedipus> DC: most discussion in email
  260. # [18:17] <oedipus> MS: email record reflects HTML5 side
  261. # [18:17] <oedipus> DC: reflects where bunch of individuals - summary for WG position would be best
  262. # [18:17] * oedipus wiki page?
  263. # [18:18] <oedipus> GJR: collect issues on wiki page to summarize issues
  264. # [18:18] <oedipus> MS: only problem is getting someone with cycles
  265. # [18:18] <oedipus> DC: problems with patches interesting aspect
  266. # [18:19] <oedipus> MS: Adam Barr (?) compiled version of FF with content-type sniffing off - tried dig.com and united.com
  267. # [18:19] <DanC> s/problems with patches interesting aspect/the most interesting thing i got out of the thread was options and patches to browse without content sniffing/
  268. # [18:19] <DanC> I solicited data in a blog item http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/07/life_without_mime_type_sniffin.html
  269. # [18:19] <oedipus> MS: good to have more data like that - content-sniffing/identification off experiences
  270. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> s/Adam Barr/Adam Barth/
  271. # [18:19] <Lachy> s/dig.com/digg.com/
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  273. # [18:19] <robburns> +robburns
  274. # [18:19] * Zakim wonders where robburns is
  275. # [18:19] <oedipus> JR: ChrisW needs to give more info about MS plans
  276. # [18:20] <DanC> s/specifically about MS?/specifically about Microsoft's authoritative=true proposal?/
  277. # [18:20] <smedero> Did anyone recommend a method to disable content-sniffing in WebKit?
  278. # [18:20] <oedipus> CW: read blog post - not sure what more to say
  279. # [18:20] <oedipus> JR: content-type sniffing end altogether, or just specific sniffing case - if serve image as GIF would content="foo"
  280. # [18:20] <oedipus> MS: believe would turn off all content sniffing - including for images
  281. # [18:21] <DanC> s/TAG discussions wide-ranging/I requested TAG discussion based on the authoritative=true discussion, but it's hard to predict what the TAG will discuss once we get started/
  282. # [18:21] <oedipus> MS: Laura, agenda addenda?
  283. # [18:21] <Lachy> image/gif;authoritive=true for a JPEG is unlikely to break because most browsers just pass off the image to the image processor, which then determines its type from the magic numbers
  284. # [18:21] <oedipus> MS: Laura, summary of contact with PF
  285. # [18:21] <oedipus> LC: waiting on PF for review of ALT (action 54) - still in progress
  286. # [18:21] <oedipus> LC: @headers PF will be discussing
  287. # [18:22] <Lachy> but the real question is whether a <script src="..."> served as text/plain;authoritive=true obeys the content type
  288. # [18:22] <oedipus> MS: looking back at email - has been discussion in PF about 5822 whihch is about headers
  289. # [18:22] <robburns> present+ robburns
  290. # [18:22] <Laura> headers bug 5822
  291. # [18:22] <Laura> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=5822
  292. # [18:22] <Laura> PF will be involved
  293. # [18:23] <oedipus> MS: issue of how to access content of "title" popups - waiting for feedback from PFWG on accessibile title exposure (multi-modal, not just expressed as tooltip)
  294. # [18:23] <oedipus> MS: change due date to next week for action 54
  295. # [18:24] <oedipus> MS: continue to wait for PFWG on this
  296. # [18:24] <oedipus> GJR: suggests that someone talk with AlG - may be WAI CG issues holding things up
  297. # [18:24] <Laura> We are still waiting for a reply from the PFWG for Action Item 54 regarding several issues:
  298. # [18:24] <Laura> http://tinyurl.com/48uyqv
  299. # [18:24] <Laura> http://tinyurl.com/3v68tn
  300. # [18:24] <Laura> Action 54 is dependent on PF's response. PF is beginning a process to provide guidance.
  301. # [18:24] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  302. # [18:24] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 54
  303. # [18:24] <oedipus> TOPIC: Action Item Review
  304. # [18:24] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jun/0205.html
  305. # [18:25] <Laura> No timeline was given in Al's email. Request for an Action Item 54 time extension until there is a response from the PFWG.
  306. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> action-56?
  307. # [18:25] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-56
  308. # [18:25] <trackbot> ACTION-56 -- Chris Wilson to chris Wilson to work with MikeSmith and DanC on (re)plan of action for forms coordination with Forms WG -- due 2008-06-26 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  309. # [18:25] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/56
  310. # [18:25] <oedipus> MS: not sure to keep ACTION 56 open
  311. # [18:25] <Zakim> +??P8
  312. # [18:25] <DanC> (GJR didn't actually voice his "suggests that...")
  313. # [18:25] <oedipus> GJR: survey on forms ends today
  314. # [18:25] <ChrisWilson> s/not sure to/should not
  315. # [18:25] <oedipus> s/GJR:/GJR notes
  316. # [18:26] <oedipus> DC: throw out overdue today, and tell others they hjave a week
  317. # [18:26] <DanC> (56? hmm...)
  318. # [18:26] <oedipus> MS: Action 56 and related survey will be closed today; should be on agenda for next week
  319. # [18:26] <DanC> action-69?
  320. # [18:26] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-69
  321. # [18:26] <trackbot> ACTION-69 -- Dan Connolly to produce poll on integrating sections of Webforms 2.0 -- due 2008-07-03 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  322. # [18:26] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/69
  323. # [18:26] <DanC> close action-69
  324. # [18:26] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-69.
  325. # [18:26] <trackbot> ACTION-69 Produce poll on integrating sections of Webforms 2.0 closed
  326. # [18:26] <oedipus> TOPIC: AGTION 67
  327. # [18:27] <oedipus> DC: at a loss - chris was supposed to address at PF face2face
  328. # [18:27] <oedipus> MS: followup?
  329. # [18:27] <oedipus> CW: headers/id?
  330. # [18:27] <oedipus> CW: didn't talk about it
  331. # [18:27] <oedipus> LC: ties in with bug 5822
  332. # [18:27] <Laura> headers bug 5822
  333. # [18:27] <DanC> (full URI for 5822?)
  334. # [18:27] <Laura> The specification states that each token in the headers attribute should have the value of an id of a th element. It says:
  335. # [18:27] <Laura> "The headers attribute, if specified, must contain a string consisting
  336. # [18:27] <Laura> of an unordered set of unique space-separated tokens, each of which
  337. # [18:27] <Laura> must have the value of an ID of a th element..."
  338. # [18:27] <Laura> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#headers
  339. # [18:27] <Julian> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=5822
  340. # [18:27] <oedipus> CS: some discussion of table headers, but dont' remember details
  341. # [18:27] <Laura> This is currently implemented in such a way that complex tables cannot be created using the headers attribute. It essentially makes the headers attribute that has been included on tds pointless. The headers attribute needs to be able to reference the id of a td.
  342. # [18:28] <Laura> As hierarchical headers are not allowed in HTML5, this means that
  343. # [18:28] <Laura> conceptual headers (cells that contain data and have their own header,
  344. # [18:28] <Laura> but act as a header for other cells in the table) must be marked up as
  345. # [18:28] <Laura> a td. As these cells are conceptually headings, the headers attribute
  346. # [18:28] <Laura> should be able to reference the id attribute of these cells.
  347. # [18:28] <Laura> In June 2007 in response to my inquiry, PF said, "There is a disability constituency that currently uses and depends on this feature: anyone offering to remove it should be expected to demonstrate that the replacement works better and is in service..."
  348. # [18:28] <oedipus> MS: eliminate multiple actions for same thing - josh following up on this; without objection will close this action
  349. # [18:28] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jun/0145.html
  350. # [18:28] <Laura> Examples like the following one needs to be conforming in HTML 5:
  351. # [18:28] <Laura> http://juicystudio.com/wcag/tables/complexdatatable.html
  352. # [18:29] <DanC> (yeah... would like to see: ACTION: Josh to follow up on bug 5822 re table headers )
  353. # [18:29] <Laura> A case-in-point is detailed in Bug 5822.
  354. # [18:29] <Laura> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=5822
  355. # [18:29] <Laura> The way headers are specied only allows the simplest of data tables to be defined accessibly, which defeats the purpose of getting the headers attribute into the specification at all, because it can't do anything that most ATs don't already do by default.
  356. # [18:29] <oedipus> GJR: PF discussion more of process and liaisoning and collaboration than details
  357. # [18:29] <Laura> Currently, the implementation is such that complex tables cannot be created using the headers attribute. The language in the current spec is attempting to pacify PFWG.
  358. # [18:29] <oedipus> MS: more to do on this? think should reassign to josh
  359. # [18:29] <oedipus> MS: add note "consider reassigning to josh"
  360. # [18:29] <Laura> The spec complies with PFs advice by paying lip service to headers while dissenting in functional requirements. It is an attempt to circumvent the issue not solve it.
  361. # [18:29] * Parts: zcorpan (zcorpan@88.131.66.80)
  362. # [18:30] <Laura> he headers attribute in the current specification is of little use, as it can only reference a th, and the th cannot be a hierarchical th. Without being able to associate header cells to data cells, screen reader users will either have great difficulty, or find it impossible, to orientate themselves in complex data tables.
  363. # [18:30] <oedipus> TOPIC: Action Item 68
  364. # [18:30] <DanC> Topic: urls-webarch
  365. # [18:31] <MikeSmith> q+
  366. # [18:31] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  367. # [18:31] <DanC> Taylor http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jun/0353.html
  368. # [18:31] <oedipus> DC: haven't finished expected results for all cases, but most useful thing was philip taylor's suggestion that for test cases, best thing to do is walk through the text and id test cases
  369. # [18:31] <oedipus> DC: philip and i walked the text multiple times
  370. # [18:32] <oedipus> DC: layering on top of UI standard - was going to write python code to match HTML5 and compare results with previous spec, but is pretty difficult
  371. # [18:32] <Julian> q+
  372. # [18:32] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, Julian on the speaker queue
  373. # [18:32] <oedipus> DC: my investigation concurs with IanH - don't know what else can / should be done
  374. # [18:32] <oedipus> s/IanH/IanH's findings
  375. # [18:33] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  376. # [18:33] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  377. # [18:33] <MikeSmith> q+ later to say that Roy was really objecting to redefining the term "URL"
  378. # [18:33] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, Julian, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  379. # [18:33] <DanC> From: Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>
  380. # [18:33] <DanC> To: Roy T. Fielding <fielding@gbiv.com>
  381. # [18:33] <DanC> Cc: public-html@w3.org
  382. # [18:33] <DanC> Subject: Re: heads-up about "new" URLs section in HTML5 editor's draft
  383. # [18:33] <DanC> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 05:25:42 +0000 (UTC) (00:25 CDT
  384. # [18:33] <DanC> "How is that different from what the spec does now?"
  385. # [18:33] <oedipus> DC: technical substance of it: 2 questions
  386. # [18:33] <robburns> The spec actually says it uses a different definition of URL than the related RFCs. If that's not he case, then that note should be removed.
  387. # [18:34] <oedipus> DC: what about non-ASCII chars? 2 cases: query part of URL from form - may be insurmmountable legacy that necessitates code in document
  388. # [18:34] <oedipus> DC: another case: what to do with ASCII chars in accomodating non-ASCII chars? FF has runtime switch to serve all as UTF-8
  389. # [18:35] <oedipus> DC: still digging through details
  390. # [18:35] <oedipus> MS: status of action? PendingReview or later date?
  391. # [18:35] <oedipus> DC: just reviewed so just keep open for now
  392. # [18:35] <oedipus> MS: nothing to add - DC can change as appropriate
  393. # [18:35] <DanC> action-68?
  394. # [18:35] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-68
  395. # [18:35] <trackbot> ACTION-68 -- Dan Connolly to work with Hixie to confirm what expected results are for http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/uri/encoding/ tests -- due 2008-07-17 -- OPEN
  396. # [18:35] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/68
  397. # [18:35] <oedipus> q?
  398. # [18:35] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, Julian, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  399. # [18:35] <MikeSmith> ack MikeSmith
  400. # [18:35] * Zakim sees Julian, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  401. # [18:36] <oedipus> MS: comment from hixie htat test cases not written to obtain results, but only to study browser behavior
  402. # [18:36] <oedipus> MS: need to evaluate results
  403. # [18:36] <oedipus> MS: need to state what expected results will be
  404. # [18:36] <MikeSmith> ack Julian
  405. # [18:36] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  406. # [18:36] <oedipus> DC: hixie responded positively to my suggestion
  407. # [18:37] <oedipus> JR: UTF-8 is everywhere - not change between FF2 and FF3 - in hixie's tests find interoperability for that everywhere; coding for non-ASCII characters otherwise varied - not part of URI where UTF-8 is currently used;
  408. # [18:37] <robburns> "The term "URL" in this specification is used in a manner distinct from the precise technical meaning it is given in RFC 3986. Readers familiar with that RFC will find it easier to read this specification if they pretend the term "URL" as used herein is really called something else altogether."
  409. # [18:37] <robburns> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#terminology0
  410. # [18:37] <oedipus> JR: current text in HTML5 and email about it, given URI and IRI defs need to be fixed; IETF wants to know what is broken and what needs to be fixed?
  411. # [18:37] <DanC> (hmm... maybe I'll use a wiki to aggregate these test results for a while...)
  412. # [18:37] <oedipus> JR: need to define error
  413. # [18:38] <Lachy> All specs need to define error handling. Without error handling, specs are unimplementable and result in interop issues
  414. # [18:38] <MikeSmith> q+ later to say that error handling needs to be documented somewhere and wonders if people are objecting to it being documented at all
  415. # [18:38] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  416. # [18:38] <Lachy> the whole debate about whether or not to define error handling is silly, cause implementations need to implement error handling anyway
  417. # [18:38] <oedipus> JR: other point of disagreement - HTML5 modified grammar of IRI or URI spec to accomodate special cases; would be much simpler to define mechanism in HTML5 to cite IRI and let IRI spec do defining
  418. # [18:38] <oedipus> DC: unless have test case, that's an editorial matter
  419. # [18:39] <oedipus> JR: agree it is editorial
  420. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> ack MikeSmith
  421. # [18:39] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to say that Roy was really objecting to redefining the term "URL"
  422. # [18:39] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  423. # [18:39] <oedipus> MS: Roy objected to redefining term URL
  424. # [18:39] <oedipus> MS: Roy in last post said spec would not get thgrough LC review
  425. # [18:39] <oedipus> MS: seems accurate - a number of things in HTML5 need resoluition otherwise won't get through last call
  426. # [18:40] <oedipus> MS: if don't deal with now, will have to deal with in last call
  427. # [18:40] <MikeSmith> q?
  428. # [18:40] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  429. # [18:40] <oedipus> DC: anyone complaining about HTML5 spec, the URL specs are the ones people deem a nightmare
  430. # [18:40] <MikeSmith> ack MikeSmith
  431. # [18:40] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to say that error handling needs to be documented somewhere and wonders if people are objecting to it being documented at all
  432. # [18:40] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  433. # [18:40] <oedipus> DC: redefining URL in HTML5 spec, there are worse things to do, but what is clearly better?
  434. # [18:41] <oedipus> MS: Roy suggested qualifying it - HTMLURL was one suggestion
  435. # [18:41] <Lachy> the HTML5 spec redefines "URL" to more realistically match how the term is used in practice
  436. # [18:41] <oedipus> MS: don't think that is practical
  437. # [18:41] <hober> clearly better would be for the URI/IRI specs to be updated to match what browsers do
  438. # [18:41] <robburns> q+ to say that the problem is that the draft says it redefines it and yet Ian and DanC's test indicate it has not been redefined (so why create confusion for the reader of the draft)
  439. # [18:41] * Zakim sees robburns on the speaker queue
  440. # [18:41] <oedipus> MS: spec is attempting to specify error handling because needs to be documented so UA implementations interoperable
  441. # [18:42] <oedipus> MS: URI spec - no active work on revising; only have URI mailing list - good for discussion but not path to resolution
  442. # [18:42] <oedipus> MS: not going to address error handling HTML5 must because we need for interoperability
  443. # [18:42] <DanC> (handling errors is one of our documented design principles. http://www.w3.org/TR/html-design-principles/#handle-errors )
  444. # [18:42] <oedipus> MS: JR serious objections to documenting error handling?
  445. # [18:43] <jmb> hober: browsers aren't the only things that use URI/IRIs
  446. # [18:43] <oedipus> JR: no, what is being said is if HTML docs contain HREF attributes containing whitespace, good idea to define how to handle; fine to do that, but problem is to say this is why URL spec is broken; discussion about how the specific text in HTML5 spec is phrased
  447. # [18:43] <hober> jmb: agreed. As an author of non-browser tools that work with URLs, what I want is for my language's URL library to do what browsers do.
  448. # [18:43] <oedipus> MS: HREF and HTMLURL seem like dead-ends
  449. # [18:44] <Lachy> The URI spec is not broken because it doesn't allow whitespace, it's broken because it doesn't define how to handle it when the URL processor encounters it
  450. # [18:44] <Zakim> -??P8
  451. # [18:44] <oedipus> MS: understand urge to redefine terms, but thay aren't calling them HREFs but simply URLs - documenting what we mean by URL is essential - think that's what hixie's extant text reflects; browser behavior around HTML and HTML APIs and related specs used by UAs to handle HTML content
  452. # [18:45] <oedipus> JR: any doc that contains a non-embeded IRI ??? - mapping HREF to something else is error handling for malformed documents
  453. # [18:45] <oedipus> MS: not trying to define new performance criteria, but assist authoring
  454. # [18:46] <oedipus> MS: what everyone should be doing from authoring POV; need to define what happens when author dosn't follow rules
  455. # [18:46] * Joins: robburns_ (robburns@85.103.143.172)
  456. # [18:46] <oedipus> JR: alogrithm phrasing for translation to URI - perhaps need to draft proposal for hixie's consideration
  457. # [18:46] <takkaria> people seem to be getting annoyed at the phrasing of the text, not what it actually accomplishes
  458. # [18:46] <DanC> (yeah... I thought about an alternate proposal, but in doing so, I satisfied myself with what's there.)
  459. # [18:46] <oedipus> MS: concrete proposals always better then vague suggestions
  460. # [18:47] <oedipus> MS: agree with takkaria's comment - just a problem with wording, not concept
  461. # [18:47] <oedipus> MS: further resolution to take?
  462. # [18:47] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  463. # [18:47] <oedipus> MS: try to get better phrasing in spec
  464. # [18:48] * Quits: robburns (robburns@85.103.143.172) (Ping timeout)
  465. # [18:48] <oedipus> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Clarify phrasing of text in section x.x.x ??
  466. # [18:48] <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop IPcaller
  467. # [18:48] <Zakim> [IPcaller] is being disconnected
  468. # [18:48] <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
  469. # [18:48] <robburns_> it is robburns, but I have a bad onnection so I wil just listen
  470. # [18:48] <oedipus> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Clarify phrasing of text in section x.x.x ??
  471. # [18:48] <Zakim> +??P3
  472. # [18:49] <Lachy> Zakim, ??P3 is robburns_
  473. # [18:49] <Zakim> +robburns_; got it
  474. # [18:49] <oedipus> MS: no resolution - just informal decision
  475. # [18:49] <oedipus> MS: Section 2.3 for the record
  476. # [18:49] <oedipus> TOPIC: Action Items Due Next Week
  477. # [18:50] <MikeSmith> action-23?
  478. # [18:50] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-23
  479. # [18:50] <trackbot> ACTION-23 -- Gregory Rosmaita to coordinate tests using ARIA -- due 2008-07-10 -- OPEN
  480. # [18:50] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/23
  481. # [18:51] <oedipus> MS: GJR coordinate tests using aria
  482. # [18:51] <MikeSmith> oedipus: discussed at PFWG 2 weeks ago, different people working on other implementations, waiting for follow-up from PFWG
  483. # [18:51] <oedipus> GJR: PF would prefer to wait until last call
  484. # [18:51] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@87.162.16.254)
  485. # [18:51] <DanC> "pending review" means "I want to talk about this with the WG". I suggest marking it open and setting the date to ... say... a month from now
  486. # [18:52] <oedipus> DanC, due date is dependent on code-freeze
  487. # [18:52] <DanC> action-66?
  488. # [18:52] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-66
  489. # [18:52] <trackbot> ACTION-66 -- Joshue O Connor to joshue to collate information on what spec status is with respect to table@summary, research background on rationale for retaining table@summary as a valid attribute -- due 2008-07-10 -- OPEN
  490. # [18:52] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/66
  491. # [18:52] <oedipus> for ARIA last call
  492. # [18:52] <oedipus> MS: run through issues
  493. # [18:52] <oedipus> MS: headers algorithms - not sure whether been much discussion lately
  494. # [18:52] <oedipus> MS: table summary attribute related issue
  495. # [18:53] <Laura> headers issue's history is detailed at:
  496. # [18:53] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders
  497. # [18:54] <oedipus> MS: issue of being able to generate conformant HTML5 content using XSLT; can't have conformant HTML5 with document prologue that lacks proper system id - can't generate from XSLT; HenriS cited as problem with XHTML serialization/modularization
  498. # [18:54] <oedipus> MS: don't see what progress can make today
  499. # [18:54] <oedipus> MS: suggest that we stop looking through raised issues; reviewed - pending review issues at bottom of agenda
  500. # [18:55] <oedipus> MS: discussed for all except HEAD profile issue
  501. # [18:55] <oedipus> MS: Julian, status? keep open?
  502. # [18:55] <oedipus> JR: opened because discussed 2 or 3 weeks ago, but didn't get into tracker; affects other specs; no new info about it
  503. # [18:55] <oedipus> MS: reminder issue
  504. # [18:55] <oedipus> MS: wonder what we need to do with these - a state where don't need to be revisted every week
  505. # [18:56] <oedipus> DC: put issue to WG to get consensus
  506. # [18:56] <oedipus> JR: pending review
  507. # [18:56] <oedipus> DC: means editor written whatever he deems answers issue
  508. # [18:56] <oedipus> MS: class of issues like this
  509. # [18:56] <oedipus> DC: owe people chance to object -
  510. # [18:57] <oedipus> q+ to ask wouldn't julian's issue be "RAISED" - shouldn't that suffice for now?
  511. # [18:57] * Zakim sees robburns, oedipus on the speaker queue
  512. # [18:57] <oedipus> MS: get objections on record and close items
  513. # [18:57] <oedipus> q?
  514. # [18:57] * Zakim sees robburns, oedipus on the speaker queue
  515. # [18:57] <oedipus> ack robburns
  516. # [18:57] <Zakim> robburns, you wanted to say that the problem is that the draft says it redefines it and yet Ian and DanC's test indicate it has not been redefined (so why create confusion for the
  517. # [18:57] <Zakim> ... reader of the draft)
  518. # [18:57] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
  519. # [18:58] <robburns_> yes
  520. # [18:58] * oedipus can you unmute -can't hear yo
  521. # [18:58] <DanC> (Mike said we've been over all the "RAISED" issues... I'm a little confused... why are they still in RAISED state, then? I guess I'll find out in due course.)
  522. # [18:58] <robburns_> I can hear you, but I don't have a good connection to talk
  523. # [18:58] <robburns_> background noise it is too loud here
  524. # [18:58] <DanC> ok, I suppose we've moved on from the URI stuff anyway, Rob
  525. # [18:59] <MikeSmith> q?
  526. # [18:59] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
  527. # [18:59] <robburns_> yeah, I entered that point anyway
  528. # [18:59] <robburns_> no, that's all
  529. # [18:59] <MikeSmith> robburns_: OK
  530. # [18:59] <oedipus> DanC, the raised state means "we are conscious of it and will adress when time appropriate
  531. # [18:59] <oedipus> ack me
  532. # [18:59] <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to ask wouldn't julian's issue be "RAISED" - shouldn't that suffice for now?
  533. # [18:59] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  534. # [19:00] <oedipus> DC: been addressed
  535. # [19:00] <DanC> (it's sort of a clerical error that the @profile issue wasn't in the tracker when it was discussed, but I don't recommend trying to discuss it more)
  536. # [19:00] <oedipus> MS: need to do what DanC suggested and get questions out to group to get decisions on record
  537. # [19:00] <Laura> Are these definitions of tracker issues accurate?
  538. # [19:00] * oedipus understood
  539. # [19:00] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML#line-10
  540. # [19:00] <MikeSmith> Topic: Any other business?
  541. # [19:01] <oedipus> MS: Laura wrote up some very good accurate descriptions
  542. # [19:01] <MikeSmith> DanC says we should encouage people to register for the TPAC
  543. # [19:01] <oedipus> GJR notes that she also did a bang-up job on the email info page, too
  544. # [19:02] <DanC> re "If after due consideration of different opinions, consensus is not achieved," the only way to tell if consensus has been reached is to put a question
  545. # [19:02] <oedipus> MS: discuss on next week's call to ensure WG agreement on http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML#line-10
  546. # [19:02] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/EmailLists
  547. # [19:02] <DanC> the chair can *estimate* the level of consensus, but the only way to be sure is to put a question
  548. # [19:03] <oedipus> MS: need to put up straw poll for attendence at TPAC
  549. # [19:03] <DanC> s/straw poll/reminder/
  550. # [19:03] <MikeSmith> DanC: move to adjourn
  551. # [19:03] <oedipus> second
  552. # [19:03] <MikeSmith> [adjourned]
  553. # [19:03] <Zakim> -Lachy
  554. # [19:03] <oedipus> MS: adjourn for week - ChrisW can you chair next week
  555. # [19:03] <Zakim> -Julian
  556. # [19:03] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  557. # [19:03] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson will chair next week
  558. # [19:03] <Laura> bye
  559. # [19:03] <oedipus> ChrisW: yes will chair next week
  560. # [19:03] <robburns_> bye
  561. # [19:03] <Zakim> -ChrisWilson
  562. # [19:03] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  563. # [19:03] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  564. # [19:03] <Zakim> -laura
  565. # [19:03] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  566. # [19:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  567. # [19:04] <robburns_> Zakim robburns_ is robburns
  568. # [19:04] <Zakim> -robburns_
  569. # [19:04] <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
  570. # [19:04] <oedipus> zakim, please part
  571. # [19:04] <Zakim> leaving. As of this point the attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, ChrisWilson, MikeSmith, Cynthia_Shelly, Julian, DanC, Josh_O_Connor, [Microsoft], Lachy, laura, [IPcaller],
  572. # [19:04] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  573. # [19:04] <Zakim> ... robburns_
  574. # [19:04] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  575. # [19:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  576. # [19:05] <oedipus> present- [Microsoft]
  577. # [19:05] <oedipus> present+ Rob_Burns
  578. # [19:05] <oedipus> present- [IPcaller]
  579. # [19:05] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  580. # [19:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  581. # [19:06] * Quits: robburns_ (robburns@85.103.143.172) (Quit: robburns_)
  582. # [19:14] <oedipus> rrsagent, please part
  583. # [19:14] <RRSAgent> I see no action items
  584. # [19:14] * Parts: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  585. # [19:30] <oedipus> [FYI] minutes announcement: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2008JulSep/0007.html
  586. # [19:30] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Client exited)
  587. # [19:30] <oedipus> [FYI] actual minutes: http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-html-wg-minutes.html
  588. # [19:30] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233) (Ping timeout)
  589. # [19:30] <oedipus> [FYI] IRC log of HTML call: http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-html-wg-irc
  590. # [19:31] * Joins: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38)
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  605. # [23:11] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
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  607. # Session Close: Fri Jul 11 00:00:00 2008

The end :)