/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-07-17 / end

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  59. # [10:35] <timelyx> is anyone here familiar w/ the http "link" header? i'm trying to implement it, but i can't find any examples and the apps i can find don't seem to like my impl (yes i know html5 has a <link> tag, but my mime type is sometimes text/plain... just hoping for a little help)
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  158. # [17:52] <ChrisWilson> zakim, agenda?
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  165. # [18:05] <ChrisWilson> zakim, who is on the phone?
  166. # [18:05] <Zakim> sorry, ChrisWilson, I don't know what conference this is
  167. # [18:05] <Zakim> On IRC I see MikeSmith, deane, Joshue, Laura, kgiff, ChrisWilson, hsivonen, Hixie, jmb, codedread, aroben, billmason, Lachy, smedero, tlr, aaronlev, Julian, Kuruma, timelyx,
  168. # [18:05] <Zakim> ... shepazu, heycam, scotfl, Philip, gsnedders, Navarr, DanC, gavin, sryo, drry, timeless, beowulf, xover, jgraham, krijnh, gDashiva, Dashiva, deltab, matt, trackbot, takkaria,
  169. # [18:05] <Zakim> ... Yudai, inimino, t
  170. # [18:05] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  171. # [18:06] <DanC> Zakim, this will be html
  172. # [18:06] <Zakim> ok, DanC, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
  173. # [18:06] <DanC> Zakim, call DanC-work
  174. # [18:06] <Zakim> ok, DanC; the call is being made
  175. # [18:06] <Zakim> +DanC
  176. # [18:06] <ChrisWilson> zakim, who is on the phone?
  177. # [18:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.703.265.aaaa, [Microsoft], laura, DanC
  178. # [18:06] <Zakim> +??P7
  179. # [18:06] <ChrisWilson> zakim, Microsoft is me
  180. # [18:06] <Zakim> +ChrisWilson; got it
  181. # [18:06] <Zakim> + +1.425.462.aabb
  182. # [18:06] <DanC> Zakim, aaaa is AOL
  183. # [18:06] <Zakim> +AOL; got it
  184. # [18:06] * Quits: codedread (chatzilla@144.189.5.201) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0/2008052906])
  185. # [18:06] <DanC> Zakim, AOL holds Kelly
  186. # [18:06] <Zakim> +Kelly; got it
  187. # [18:07] <DanC> Zakim, AOL holds Robert
  188. # [18:07] <Zakim> +Robert; got it
  189. # [18:07] <Zakim> +??P0
  190. # [18:07] <Zakim> +Julian
  191. # [18:07] <smedero> Zakim, aabb is me
  192. # [18:07] <Zakim> +smedero; got it
  193. # [18:07] <shepazu> Zakim, call shepazu
  194. # [18:07] <Zakim> ok, shepazu; the call is being made
  195. # [18:07] <Zakim> +Shepazu.a
  196. # [18:07] <ChrisWilson> zakim, Microsoft holds me
  197. # [18:07] <Zakim> sorry, ChrisWilson, I do not recognize a party named 'Microsoft'
  198. # [18:07] <ChrisWilson> ah
  199. # [18:07] <DanC> Zakim, aabb is smedero
  200. # [18:07] <Zakim> sorry, DanC, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
  201. # [18:07] <MikeSmith> Zakim, ??P0 is me
  202. # [18:07] <Zakim> +MikeSmith; got it
  203. # [18:07] <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  204. # [18:07] <Zakim> On the phone I see AOL, ChrisWilson, laura, DanC, ??P7, smedero, MikeSmith, Julian, Shepazu.a
  205. # [18:07] <Zakim> AOL has Robert
  206. # [18:08] <Joshue> Zakim,??P7
  207. # [18:08] <Zakim> I don't understand '??P7', Joshue
  208. # [18:08] <DanC> Zakim, ??P7 is Joshue
  209. # [18:08] <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
  210. # [18:08] * Quits: aroben (adamroben@76.111.160.14) (Quit: aroben)
  211. # [18:08] <ChrisWilson> agenda+ review pending items
  212. # [18:08] * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
  213. # [18:08] <ChrisWilson> agenda+ review overdue action items
  214. # [18:08] * Zakim notes agendum 2 added
  215. # [18:09] <ChrisWilson> agenda+ discuss tracker definitions (via Laura): http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML?action=show#head-47c0b55d661dcf93f76d586ddbe292c9abc597e4
  216. # [18:09] * Zakim notes agendum 3 added
  217. # [18:09] <ChrisWilson> agenda+ review issues discussed this week
  218. # [18:09] * Zakim notes agendum 4 added
  219. # [18:09] <shepazu> agenda+ SVG in HTML
  220. # [18:09] * Zakim notes agendum 5 added
  221. # [18:10] <Joshue> Discussion on @headers
  222. # [18:10] <ChrisWilson> agenda+ discussion on @headers
  223. # [18:10] * Zakim notes agendum 6 added
  224. # [18:10] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  225. # [18:11] <ChrisWilson> Zakim, Microsoft is Cynthia Shelley
  226. # [18:11] <Zakim> I don't understand 'Microsoft is Cynthia Shelley', ChrisWilson
  227. # [18:11] <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute me
  228. # [18:11] <Zakim> MikeSmith should now be muted
  229. # [18:11] <smedero> shepazu: ISSUE-37 "integration of SVG" was sorta on the agenda by virtue of publc-html discussion - http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/37
  230. # [18:11] <ChrisWilson> agenda?
  231. # [18:11] * Zakim sees 6 items remaining on the agenda:
  232. # [18:11] * Zakim 1. review pending items [from ChrisWilson]
  233. # [18:11] * Zakim 2. review overdue action items [from ChrisWilson]
  234. # [18:11] * Zakim 3. discuss tracker definitions (via Laura): http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML?action=show#head-47c0b55d661dcf93f76d586ddbe292c9abc597e4 [from ChrisWilson]
  235. # [18:11] * Zakim 4. review issues discussed this week [from ChrisWilson]
  236. # [18:11] * Zakim 5. SVG in HTML [from shepazu]
  237. # [18:11] <smedero> shepazu: mostly, I just wanted to link your topic with an ISSUE
  238. # [18:11] * Zakim 6. discussion on @headers [from ChrisWilson]
  239. # [18:12] * Joins: Cynthia (836b0066@128.30.52.43)
  240. # [18:12] <shepazu> smedero: that's cool
  241. # [18:12] <DanC> Zakim, take up item 1
  242. # [18:12] <Zakim> agendum 1. "review pending items" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
  243. # [18:12] <Joshue> Also status of Action 66 @summary
  244. # [18:12] <ChrisWilson> action 54: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/54
  245. # [18:12] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  246. # [18:12] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 54
  247. # [18:12] <DanC> action-54?
  248. # [18:12] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-54
  249. # [18:12] <trackbot> ACTION-54 -- Gregory Rosmaita to work with SteveF draft text for HTML 5 spec to require producers/authors to include @alt on img elements -- due 2008-07-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  250. # [18:12] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/54
  251. # [18:12] <Laura> We are still waiting for a reply from the PFWG for Action Item 54 regarding several issues:
  252. # [18:12] <Laura> http://tinyurl.com/48uyqv
  253. # [18:12] <Laura> http://tinyurl.com/3v68tn
  254. # [18:12] <Laura> Action 54 is dependent on PF's response. PF is beginning a process to provide guidance.
  255. # [18:12] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  256. # [18:12] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 54
  257. # [18:12] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jun/0205.html
  258. # [18:12] <Laura> No timeline was given in Al's email. Request for an Action Item 54 time extension until there is a response from the PFWG.
  259. # [18:13] <DanC> (I gather it shouldn't have been marked pending review)
  260. # [18:13] <DanC> action-54?
  261. # [18:13] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-54
  262. # [18:13] <trackbot> ACTION-54 -- Chris Wilson to ask PF WG to look at drafted text for HTML 5 spec to require producers/authors to include @alt on img elements -- due 2008-07-17 -- OPEN
  263. # [18:13] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/54
  264. # [18:14] <DanC> action-54?
  265. # [18:14] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-54
  266. # [18:14] <trackbot> ACTION-54 -- Chris Wilson to ask PF WG to look at drafted text for HTML 5 spec to require producers/authors to include @alt on img elements -- due 2008-07-24 -- OPEN
  267. # [18:14] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/54
  268. # [18:14] <ChrisWilson> Chris to poke PF group for review.
  269. # [18:14] <ChrisWilson> on to action 57 - http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/57
  270. # [18:14] <DanC> ISSUE-41
  271. # [18:14] <DanC> Decentralized-extensibility
  272. # [18:14] <ChrisWilson> I sent mail last night, generated some discussion.
  273. # [18:15] <ChrisWilson> finished action, closed item.
  274. # [18:15] <DanC> close action-57
  275. # [18:15] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-57.
  276. # [18:15] <trackbot> ACTION-57 Respond to extensibility discussion closed
  277. # [18:16] <ChrisWilson> zakim, take up item 2
  278. # [18:16] <Zakim> agendum 2. "review overdue action items" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
  279. # [18:16] <ChrisWilson> that's action 66 - http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/66
  280. # [18:16] <DanC> action-66?
  281. # [18:16] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-66
  282. # [18:16] <trackbot> ACTION-66 -- Joshue O Connor to joshue to collate information on what spec status is with respect to table@summary, research background on rationale for retaining table@summary as a valid attribute -- due 2008-07-10 -- OPEN
  283. # [18:16] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/66
  284. # [18:16] <Joshue> The HTML wiki has been updated to describe the issue ?Mechanism to Summarize a Table? [1]
  285. # [18:16] * DanC can't hear Joshue very well... it's as if he's in a big drum
  286. # [18:17] <Joshue> Still awaiting for a response from PF regarding the need for HTML 5 to have a suitable mechanism to summarize a data table.[2]
  287. # [18:17] <DanC> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SummaryForTABLE
  288. # [18:17] <Laura> We are collating info on the issue at:
  289. # [18:17] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SummaryForTABLE
  290. # [18:17] <DanC> (waiting for PF... pointer to request to PF?)
  291. # [18:17] <Joshue> The current spec status is that that @summary is missing. The current draft (15/7/2008) has no reference to @summary at all. [1]
  292. # [18:17] <Laura> are waiting for a response from PF on:
  293. # [18:17] <Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Jun/0073.html
  294. # [18:17] <Joshue> "Research background on rationale for retaining table@summary"
  295. # [18:18] <Joshue> 1. If a table is complex enough to require a description to understand it, then that description should be available to everyone (not only screen reader users).
  296. # [18:18] <DanC> 0073 is 26 Jun 2008 Request for PFWG WAI review of @summary for tabular data
  297. # [18:18] <Joshue> 2. Summary is explicitly invisible metadata and therefore is more likely to be missing or inaccurate than data that is visible to all UAs.
  298. # [18:18] <DanC> Topic: table summary
  299. # [18:19] <DanC> action-66?
  300. # [18:19] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-66
  301. # [18:19] <trackbot> ACTION-66 -- Chris Wilson to joshue to collate information on what spec status is with respect to table@summary, research background on rationale for retaining table@summary as a valid attribute -- due 2008-07-24 -- OPEN
  302. # [18:19] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/66
  303. # [18:19] <ChrisWilson> zakim, take up next item
  304. # [18:19] <Zakim> agendum 1. "review pending items" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
  305. # [18:20] <ChrisWilson> zakim, take up next item
  306. # [18:20] <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, ChrisWilson
  307. # [18:20] <DanC> Zakim, close item 1
  308. # [18:20] <Zakim> agendum 1, review pending items, closed
  309. # [18:20] <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
  310. # [18:20] <Zakim> 3. discuss tracker definitions (via Laura): http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML?action=show#head-47c0b55d661dcf93f76d586ddbe292c9abc597e4 [from ChrisWilson]
  311. # [18:20] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  312. # [18:20] <Zakim> agendum 3. "discuss tracker definitions (via Laura): http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML?action=show#head-47c0b55d661dcf93f76d586ddbe292c9abc597e4" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
  313. # [18:20] <Laura> Are these tracker definitions accurate?
  314. # [18:20] <Laura> What needs to be changed? Ideas for improvement?
  315. # [18:20] * Joins: kgiff_ (kgiff@64.236.128.12)
  316. # [18:21] <DanC> (I've been editing...)
  317. # [18:21] <ChrisWilson> moment of silence to read and comment on tracker definitions...
  318. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> I'm happy with the current text there
  319. # [18:21] <ChrisWilson> "action" might also be to gather information.
  320. # [18:21] <smedero> Ahh, well before DanC - I think StevenF was the last person to refine them.
  321. # [18:22] <smedero> Ahh, and Laura...
  322. # [18:25] <ChrisWilson> action shepazu to bring up sharing tracker definitions with Web Apps group.
  323. # [18:25] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  324. # [18:25] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - shepazu
  325. # [18:25] <ChrisWilson> action Doug Schepers to bring up sharing tracker definitions with Web Apps group.
  326. # [18:25] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  327. # [18:25] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Doug
  328. # [18:26] <smedero> shepazu isn't in the list of users for the HTML tracker instance: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/users
  329. # [18:26] <DanC> 2008-07-17 14:51:41
  330. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> yeah, that's true
  331. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> I removed him
  332. # [18:28] <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute me
  333. # [18:28] <Zakim> MikeSmith should no longer be muted
  334. # [18:28] * shepazu vows vengeance
  335. # [18:28] <MikeSmith> q+
  336. # [18:28] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  337. # [18:28] <MikeSmith> q?
  338. # [18:28] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  339. # [18:28] <ChrisWilson> ack MikeSmith
  340. # [18:28] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  341. # [18:28] * DanC wonders if MikeSmith is waiting for a letter from the pope
  342. # [18:28] * Joins: Robert (robertgoni@64.236.128.12)
  343. # [18:29] * ChrisWilson sends engraved invitation
  344. # [18:29] * ChrisWilson :)
  345. # [18:31] <ChrisWilson> action ChrisWilson to review/edit tracker definitions: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML?action=show#head-47c0b55d661dcf93f76d586ddbe292c9abc597e4
  346. # [18:31] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  347. # [18:31] <trackbot> Created ACTION-70 - Review/edit tracker definitions: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML?action=show#head-47c0b55d661dcf93f76d586ddbe292c9abc597e4 [on Chris Wilson - due 2008-07-24].
  348. # [18:31] <DanC> (a search for "xchat windows" yields http://www.silverex.org/news/ )
  349. # [18:31] <ChrisWilson> zakim, take up next item
  350. # [18:31] <Zakim> agendum 4. "review issues discussed this week" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
  351. # [18:32] <ChrisWilson> agenda+ action items due next week
  352. # [18:32] * Zakim notes agendum 7 added
  353. # [18:32] <ChrisWilson> SVG in HTML - http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/37
  354. # [18:32] <DanC> Zakim, take up item SVG
  355. # [18:32] <Zakim> agendum 5. "SVG in HTML" taken up [from shepazu]
  356. # [18:33] <ChrisWilson> shepazu: introduces himself, points to SVG-in-HTML proposal sent
  357. # [18:34] <ChrisWilson> shepazu: think inline SVG is important, think fallbacks are important, think same syntax is critical. Changing syntax would be a major disruption to current tools
  358. # [18:35] * Joins: robertgonia (robertgoni@64.236.128.12)
  359. # [18:35] * Quits: Robert (robertgoni@64.236.128.12) (Quit: Robert)
  360. # [18:37] * Parts: robertgonia (robertgoni@64.236.128.12)
  361. # [18:37] <ChrisWilson> action ChrisWilson to bring up SVG/DOM issue on list
  362. # [18:37] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  363. # [18:37] <trackbot> Created ACTION-71 - Bring up SVG/DOM issue on list [on Chris Wilson - due 2008-07-24].
  364. # [18:39] * Joins: robertgonia (robertgoni@64.236.128.12)
  365. # [18:40] <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute me
  366. # [18:40] <Zakim> MikeSmith should now be muted
  367. # [18:40] <ChrisWilson> shepazu: shared document, etc. interfaces should work across DOM?
  368. # [18:43] <ChrisWilson> shepazu: we went into this proposal thinking it would be a shared document model
  369. # [18:43] <ChrisWilson> shepazu: SVGWG was a little concerned that one of first people to respond had already started implementing Hixie's proposal
  370. # [18:44] <Joshue> Zakim, mute me
  371. # [18:44] <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
  372. # [18:44] <ChrisWilson> shepazu: want to get this into the WG's mind quickly enough to be timely.
  373. # [18:44] * Quits: Hixie (ianh@129.241.93.37) (Ping timeout)
  374. # [18:44] * Quits: hsivonen (hsivonen@130.233.41.50) (Ping timeout)
  375. # [18:45] * Joins: Hixie (ianh@129.241.93.37)
  376. # [18:46] * Joins: hsivonen (hsivonen@130.233.41.50)
  377. # [18:48] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  378. # [18:51] * Quits: hsivonen (hsivonen@130.233.41.50) (Ping timeout)
  379. # [18:51] <ChrisWilson> any comments on decentralized extensibility?
  380. # [18:51] <ChrisWilson> (before we move on)
  381. # [18:51] * Quits: Hixie (ianh@129.241.93.37) (Ping timeout)
  382. # [18:51] * Joins: Hixie (ianh@129.241.93.37)
  383. # [18:51] * Joins: hsivonen (hsivonen@130.233.41.50)
  384. # [18:52] <ChrisWilson> zakim, take up next item
  385. # [18:52] <Zakim> agendum 4. "review issues discussed this week" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
  386. # [18:52] <ChrisWilson> zakim, close item 4
  387. # [18:52] <Zakim> agendum 4, review issues discussed this week, closed
  388. # [18:52] <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
  389. # [18:52] <Zakim> 6. discussion on @headers [from ChrisWilson]
  390. # [18:52] <ChrisWilson> zakim, take up next item
  391. # [18:52] <Zakim> agendum 6. "discussion on @headers" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
  392. # [18:53] <Joshue> Zakim, unmute me
  393. # [18:53] <Zakim> Joshue should no longer be muted
  394. # [18:54] <ChrisWilson> Joshue: want to raise an issue - headers problem is half in issue20, but other issue needs to be addressed.
  395. # [18:54] <Laura> Issue 20 addresses only one half of the headers problem. Issue 20 is defined as "Improvements to the table-headers algorithm in the HTML 5 spec". It is commendable to improve the algorithm but issue 20 does not mention retaining id/headers functionality or the need for backwards compatibility.
  396. # [18:54] <ChrisWilson> dan: does this need to be a separate issue?
  397. # [18:55] <Laura> It does not address bug 5822 (see my IRC comments from last week's teleconf http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-html-wg-minutes.html#item06 ). The id/headers function is needed today. The id/headers markup works today. It needs to be grandfathered into the spec. Proposed two step solution:
  398. # [18:55] <ChrisWilson> Laura & Joshue: either way
  399. # [18:55] <Laura> 1. Reinstate id/headers AND their functionality into the spec by specifically stating that headers are allowed to reference a td. Reword the current definition of the headers attribute so that each of the space separated tokens must have the value of the ID value of a th or td element.
  400. # [18:55] <Laura> 2. Introduce a new type of table cell which automatically acts as both a header and a data cell without any explicit accessibility attributes or without any explicit associations (as the editor proposed in bug 5822).
  401. # [18:56] <Laura> Issue 20 describes step two. Request a new ISSUE to describe step one. Request a new ACTION to do step one, namely to draft text for the spec to reword the current definition of the headers attribute so that each of the space separated tokens must have the value of the ID value of a th or td element.
  402. # [18:56] <Laura> If headers are ever to be transitioned out of HTML, do it in an orderly and graceful manner.
  403. # [18:56] <Laura> Details and History of id/headers:
  404. # [18:56] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders
  405. # [18:56] <DanC> "Improvements to the table-headers algorithm in the HTML 5 spec"
  406. # [18:56] <shepazu> s/want to get this into the WG's mind quickly enough to be timely./want to get this into the WG's mind quickly enough to be timely, so that the implementation target is our proposal rather than previous proposal in the HTML5 spec/
  407. # [18:57] <Laura> Issue Isn't Solved by the Current Spec
  408. # [18:57] <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders#head-85e22b44113d468a06de687ce426b4d3135b0834
  409. # [18:57] <ChrisWilson> @shepazu: or the WG explicitly chooses previous proposal. :) "Want HTML WG to be intentional vis-a-vis this issue"?
  410. # [18:58] <Joshue> I suggest a new issue due to potential for confusion with @header
  411. # [18:58] <Joshue> I will add a new action due to the need for possibly new actions..
  412. # [18:58] <ChrisWilson> zakim, close item
  413. # [18:58] <Zakim> I don't understand 'close item', ChrisWilson
  414. # [18:58] <ChrisWilson> zakim, close agenda item 6
  415. # [18:58] <Zakim> I don't understand 'close agenda item 6', ChrisWilson
  416. # [18:58] <DanC> Zakim, close item 6
  417. # [18:58] <Zakim> agendum 6, discussion on @headers, closed
  418. # [18:59] <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
  419. # [18:59] <Zakim> 7. action items due next week [from ChrisWilson]
  420. # [18:59] <ChrisWilson> zakim, take up next item
  421. # [18:59] <Zakim> agendum 7. "action items due next week" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
  422. # [18:59] <shepazu> ChrisWilson: yes, exactly... but to be fair, the SVG WG doesn't like the previous proposal, so we do want our proposal to be the starting point
  423. # [18:59] <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute me
  424. # [18:59] <Zakim> MikeSmith should no longer be muted
  425. # [19:00] <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute me
  426. # [19:00] <Zakim> MikeSmith should now be muted
  427. # [19:00] <ChrisWilson> Any other agenda items?
  428. # [19:00] <ChrisWilson> adjourn?
  429. # [19:00] <MikeSmith> seconded
  430. # [19:01] * Joins: adele (adele@17.203.14.218)
  431. # [19:01] <ChrisWilson> adjourn!
  432. # [19:01] <Zakim> -smedero
  433. # [19:01] <Joshue> Thanks, Bye
  434. # [19:01] <Zakim> -Julian
  435. # [19:01] * DanC Zakim, drop me
  436. # [19:01] * Zakim DanC is being disconnected
  437. # [19:01] <Zakim> -AOL
  438. # [19:01] <Zakim> -DanC
  439. # [19:01] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  440. # [19:01] <shepazu> ChrisWilson: note that if IE started supporting SVG, I'd be more open to different parsing rules, myself
  441. # [19:01] <Zakim> -ChrisWilson
  442. # [19:01] <Zakim> -Shepazu.a
  443. # [19:01] * Parts: robertgonia (robertgoni@64.236.128.12)
  444. # [19:01] <Zakim> -Joshue
  445. # [19:01] <shepazu> it's all about critical mass
  446. # [19:01] <Zakim> -MikeSmith
  447. # [19:02] <Zakim> -laura
  448. # [19:02] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
  449. # [19:02] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.703.265.aaaa, Julian, laura, DanC, ChrisWilson, +1.425.462.aabb, Kelly, Robert, smedero, Shepazu.a, MikeSmith, Joshue, [Microsoft]
  450. # [19:02] * Quits: kgiff_ (kgiff@64.236.128.12) (Quit: kgiff_)
  451. # [19:04] <smedero> I'm still confused as to why ISSUE-20 shouldn't be broadened to cover the actual problem the WG faces. It sounds like the current ISSUE doesn't sufficiently handle our needs... and if a second issue is opened... then the next steps for ISSUE-20 are unclear.
  452. # [19:04] <DanC> I gather it will be... or may be.
  453. # [19:06] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233) (Ping timeout)
  454. # [19:06] <smedero> I can respect the point on confusion regarding the intent of ISSUE-20 due to legacy actions/emails and such... but at the same time the fact there is a distance between the original ISSUE and the one the working group actually needs seems like something worth documenting. (if I'm wearing my archival cap...)
  455. # [19:06] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Quit: tlr)
  456. # [19:06] * Quits: Joshue (Josh@86.40.112.244) (Quit: Quitting!)
  457. # [19:06] <smedero> anyway, I think Joshue has write access to the tracker?
  458. # [19:07] <DanC> I lean toward broadening too... I gather Joshue does too. but I don't fee THAT strongly about it
  459. # [19:07] * Joins: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38)
  460. # [19:08] <DanC> adding SVG to HTML overwhelms me. are we really ready to square the number of test cases we're interested in?
  461. # [19:09] <MikeSmith> smedero: yeah, Josh has edit access to the Tracker now
  462. # [19:10] <smedero> DanC: indeed. Reading the "Use of SVG Resources in HTML and CSS" section also worried me a bit about the scope SVG WG's proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jul/att-0179/svg-html-proposal.html#resources-html-css
  463. # [19:11] <smedero> though I guess it was labelled informative... as more of a "heads up, our mind is here on certain points.."
  464. # [19:12] <DanC> so much for broadening.
  465. # [19:12] <DanC> issue-57?
  466. # [19:12] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-57
  467. # [19:12] <trackbot> ISSUE-57 -- @headers -- RAISED
  468. # [19:12] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/57
  469. # [19:14] <DanC> boy, it sure seems like the same issue, i.e. the same design space to me.
  470. # [19:14] <DanC> oh well
  471. # [19:16] <DanC> lunch time approaches here... smedero where are you in your day? interested to do some testing work today?
  472. # [19:16] <smedero> 10am here.
  473. # [19:17] <smedero> I can set aside some time for that - what works for you?
  474. # [19:19] <DanC> 45 minutes is prolly enough for lunch, so 11am where you are, 1pm where I am
  475. # [19:19] <smedero> Alright, I'll be around.
  476. # [19:19] <DanC> cool
  477. # [19:19] * DanC wanders off for a bit...
  478. # [19:21] * Quits: hsivonen (hsivonen@130.233.41.50) (Ping timeout)
  479. # [19:21] * Quits: Hixie (ianh@129.241.93.37) (Ping timeout)
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  482. # [19:34] * Quits: Cynthia (836b0066@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC)
  483. # [19:41] <Philip> DanC: The way I would interpret it, we would only be adding SVG *parsing* to HTML, so we would only need test cases for SVG parsing - we don't need to test the SVG functionality itself, any more than XHTML needs to test the SVG functionality that can be included in XHTML documents
  484. # [19:42] <DanC> I doubt anybody's really interested in adding SVG parsing to HTML without the actual graphics functionality
  485. # [19:42] <Philip> and testing SVG-in-HTML parsing seems like a quite reasonable goal, since we already have lots of parser test cases and several people active in writing them
  486. # [19:42] <Philip> DanC: But the HTML WG doesn't need to write test cases for that graphics functionality
  487. # [19:43] <DanC> ok, so maybe squaring the # of tests was hyperbole... but stuff like the scope of getElementByID is a design choice that merits testing
  488. # [19:44] <Philip> Ah, right
  489. # [19:45] <shepazu> yes, some of the interfaces do need testing
  490. # [19:45] <DanC> there are probably some graphic-related interactions... e.g. clipping of SVG in iframes
  491. # [19:45] <shepazu> and also all the mixtures of HTML+SVG+CSS
  492. # [19:45] <Philip> XHTML5 supports inline SVG, so if we want to test the interactions then we'd have to do that regardless of whether SVG can be parsed from HTML too
  493. # [19:46] <shepazu> right
  494. # [19:47] <DanC> hmm... does XHTML5 support SVG the way HTML supports PNG, or does it *depend* on it, the way HTML depends on Unicode?
  495. # [19:47] <shepazu> neither
  496. # [19:47] <shepazu> XML Namespaces supports both SVG and XHTML
  497. # [19:48] <shepazu> as well as any other XML markup, like MathML
  498. # [19:49] <DanC> that's what I meant by "the way HTML supports PNG"; i.e. the HTML spec doesn't normatively cite PNG, but PNG is out there, and HTML and PNG can be combined
  499. # [19:49] <shepazu> there are unsolved details, like the DOM interfaces, but that needs to be defined anyway
  500. # [19:50] <shepazu> DanC: personally, I don't think that's a good analogy... PNG doesn't have a DOM, you can't express the format directly in HTML, etc.
  501. # [19:50] <smedero> DanC - Gotta step out for a moment, I'll be back in 5 minutes or less though.
  502. # [19:50] <DanC> ok, never mind the analogy; does XHTML5 normatively cite SVG?
  503. # [19:51] <shepazu> I don't think it does
  504. # [19:51] <DanC> in the proposals from hixie and the SVG WG, HTML 5 normatively cites SVG
  505. # [19:52] <shepazu> ah, maybe in that sense, then... XHTML1.1 doesn't cite SVG, but XHTML5 should/does
  506. # [19:52] <Philip> DanC: Do you have a pointer to where Hixie's proposal cites it?
  507. # [19:53] <Philip> (I'm not sure why it'd be strictly necessary - HTML5 just says how to make a DOM of (namespaceURI, localName) elements, and then other specs say how DOM elements in certain namespaces should be processed)
  508. # [19:53] <smedero> and back.
  509. # [19:54] * Quits: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217) (Quit: Laura)
  510. # [19:56] <Philip> (It's just a happy coincidence that HTML5 says a document like "<svg>" should be parsed into a DOM with a ("http://www.w3.org/whatever/svg", "svg") element, and that some other spec defines special processing of that particular element)
  511. # [19:59] <deane> XHTML5 doesn't cite XForms either, but XForms and other XML technologies can be used in XHTML5 (based on UA support). XHTML5 doesn't have a fixed vocabulary
  512. # [20:00] <DanC> hmm... I suppose I misread hixie's proposal, Philip .
  513. # [20:00] <DanC> (which see http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/html5/spec/Overview.html?rev=1.614&content-type=text/html;%20charset=iso-8859-1#parsing-main-inforeign )
  514. # [20:01] <DanC> hmm... which test case stuff to pick up... URIs, I guess. any preferences, smedero ?
  515. # [20:02] <smedero> URIs are still a hot item.
  516. # [20:03] * DanC grabs http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/uri/encoding/ ...
  517. # [20:04] <smedero> Working from here, right? http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#urls
  518. # [20:04] * Quits: hsivonen (hsivonen@130.233.41.50) (Ping timeout)
  519. # [20:04] <DanC> yes
  520. # [20:05] * DanC kills wget, which seems to be getting more than I want...
  521. # [20:06] * Joins: hsivonen (hsivonen@130.233.41.50)
  522. # [20:09] <DanC> ok... got 35 things... but results.cgi turned into a directory... I wonder i we can guess what's in there
  523. # [20:09] <DanC> surely it's a 15 line perl script
  524. # [20:10] <DanC> hmm... maybe more than that
  525. # [20:10] <DanC> Hixie, I'd like the source to http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/uri/encoding/results.cgi
  526. # [20:11] <smedero> All I remember about it, was that you could do stuff like
  527. # [20:11] <smedero> http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/uri/encoding/results.cgi/%AA%BB%CC?%AA%BB%CC
  528. # [20:12] * Quits: hsivonen (hsivonen@130.233.41.50) (Ping timeout)
  529. # [20:12] <Philip> DanC: It should be in http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/uri/encoding.tar.gz
  530. # [20:13] <DanC> ah. thanks.
  531. # [20:14] <DanC> so it's 50 lines of perl
  532. # [20:14] * Joins: hsivonen (hsivonen@130.233.41.50)
  533. # [20:23] * DanC gets distracted by http://www.damowmow.com/playground/demos/ ...
  534. # [20:26] <smedero> there's always distractions in damowmow land. for instance: http://junkyard.damowmow.com/326
  535. # [20:29] <DanC> this "oh well; we can just get authors to use UTF-8 and then the URI specs work" idea... I kinda liked it... but I don't think http://www.baidu.com/ is switching to UTF-8 any time soon
  536. # [20:30] <DanC> GB2312 ... new to me... off to wikipedia-school...
  537. # [20:30] <smedero> simplified chinese if my memory serves...
  538. # [20:30] <DanC> yes. cache hit.
  539. # [20:31] <gsnedders> You don't actually treat stuff that claims to be GB2312 as GB2312 though :P
  540. # [20:32] * Quits: deane (dean@121.72.160.65) (Client exited)
  541. # [20:32] <smedero> it was pretty common to find that as the declared encoding back when worked at the linguistic data consortium.
  542. # [20:32] <DanC> wikipedia speaks of "Encodings of GB2312" ... <tilt />. I thought BG2312 was an encoding...
  543. # [20:32] <Philip> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/parsing.html#character0
  544. # [20:32] <smedero> for instance they crawled tons of chinese news sites, and then all used gb2313. Xinhua for example: thhttp://www.xinhuanet.com/
  545. # [20:32] <Philip> (GB2312 is interpreted as GBK)
  546. # [20:33] <smedero> sigh. meant, http://www.xinhuanet.com/
  547. # [20:33] <smedero> i don't think xinhua had a ton of funky urls though.... i could probably find ones that did though.
  548. # [20:33] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  549. # [20:34] <DanC> ah... looks like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GBK is more relevant than http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GB_2312
  550. # [20:34] * DanC wonders to what extent IANA is clued in...
  551. # [20:35] <gsnedders> They aren't :P
  552. # [20:36] <DanC> no? http://www.iana.org/assignments/character-sets agrees with what I see elsewhere
  553. # [20:39] <smedero> Off topic, but according to Chinese portal yesky, SQL Server 2008 = Nicolas Cage: http://dev.yesky.com/topic/260/8080260.shtml
  554. # [20:39] <DanC> ok... zooming back in...
  555. # [20:43] <gsnedders> DanC: GB2312 isn't an alias of GBK if you believe that
  556. # [20:43] <DanC> checked in a copy at http://homer.w3.org/~connolly/projects/html5-url-tests/ ...
  557. # [20:44] <DanC> not sure what you're getting at, gsnedders ; who claims it is?
  558. # [20:44] <gsnedders> DanC: HTML 5, and the real world :)
  559. # [20:45] <DanC> huh? the real world claims GB2312 is an alias of GBK, but you say it isn't?
  560. # [20:48] <gsnedders> The real world claims it is, the IANA claims it isn't.
  561. # [20:48] <gsnedders> I claim what the real world claims.
  562. # [20:48] <gsnedders> (i.e., it is)
  563. # [20:50] <DanC> I don't see any claims from IANA about GB2312 and GBK
  564. # [20:50] <Philip> s/the IANA claims it isn't/the IANA doesn't claim it is/ ?
  565. # [20:51] <gsnedders> http://www.iana.org/assignments/character-sets doesn't make it an alias.
  566. # [20:52] <DanC> HTML 5 includes a charset registry? <whimper />
  567. # [20:52] <gsnedders> It just defines how to resolve certain names from HTML
  568. # [20:52] <gsnedders> And makes some things aliases
  569. # [20:52] <DanC> 8.2.2.2. Character encoding requirements
  570. # [20:53] <gsnedders> It _really_ ought to be defined at the IANA level, but they're unwilling to change, as far as I can see.
  571. # [20:53] <smedero> When doing news crawling... there weren't a ton of pages that claim to be GBK... but I remember finding a lot of pages claiming to be GB2312 that contained characters only found in GBK.
  572. # [20:53] <gsnedders> (on grounds that they have a spec that says they're right, and it's just everything else is broken)
  573. # [20:54] <DanC> if you have pointers to requests to IANA and/or refusal from IANA, I'd like to take a look. likewise charmod.
  574. # [20:54] <Philip> http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-March/014151.html
  575. # [20:55] <smedero> As always, Philip with the data. :-)
  576. # [20:58] * Quits: ChrisWilson (cwilso@131.107.0.75) (Ping timeout)
  577. # [20:59] <Philip> Data's easy, since you don't have to think about it - correctly analysing data is hard, so I leave that for other people to get wrong instead of me :-)
  578. # [21:00] <DanC> I'm a little surprised that you use dmoz; is that still maintained?
  579. # [21:00] <gsnedders> DanC: well, the archives seem to still be down
  580. # [21:00] <gsnedders> DanC: It is, but IIRC his use comes from data listing APIs
  581. # [21:01] <Philip> DanC: I guess it is, since it seems to change every time I look
  582. # [21:02] <Philip> DanC: It's just the only vaguely reasonable public list of millions of web pages that I've found, so I'm not sure how to do something better
  583. # [21:02] <DanC> I see.
  584. # [21:03] <Philip> (It's bad for finding information about GB2312, since it's heavily biased towards English and European languages)
  585. # [21:04] <DanC> in other areas of research, people seem to use a google search as a seed, but they have some keywords to start with
  586. # [21:04] <gsnedders> That will lead to other bias, so it isn't that much better
  587. # [21:04] <Philip> Google doesn't expose a search API
  588. # [21:04] <Philip> and you can only get something like a thousand results, I think
  589. # [21:04] <Philip> Yahoo does have a public API but that's limited to a thousand too
  590. # [21:05] <smedero> Google does for education institutions...
  591. # [21:05] <smedero> though I don't know if that applies outside the US
  592. # [21:05] <gsnedders> Google used to have a public search API
  593. # [21:06] <smedero> Basically, you can't use the API to build a search engine. You have to publish your research...
  594. # [21:06] <Philip> http://research.google.com/university/search/proposal.html
  595. # [21:06] <Philip> "The research program is open to faculty members and their research teams at colleges and universities, by registration only"
  596. # [21:06] * DanC finishes obligatory mail to I18N contact about the charset registry in HTML 5, resumes testing work...
  597. # [21:06] <Philip> "The program may be used exclusively for academic research, and research results must be made available to the public"
  598. # [21:06] <Philip> (I don't think research for HTML5 would really count as academic research)
  599. # [21:07] <smedero> I realize that's not ideal, just saying.
  600. # [21:07] <DanC> I don't see why it wouldn't count
  601. # [21:07] <DanC> hmm... anyway.
  602. # [21:07] <Philip> It would be research for some practical purpose, and therefore wouldn't be academic ;-)
  603. # [21:08] * Joins: ChrisWilson (cwilso@131.107.0.75)
  604. # [21:08] <Philip> and it's still limited to 1000 results
  605. # [21:09] <DanC> hmm... these URL tests rely on access to a web server. anybody see a way to avoid that? it complicates test harness design.
  606. # [21:10] <Philip> dmoz just gives you an RDF file with five million URLs, which is much easier for lazy people who just want lots of URLs to real pages
  607. # [21:15] * Quits: kgiff (kgiff@64.236.128.12) (Ping timeout)
  608. # [21:17] <Philip> DanC: Do you mean you want it to work under file:// instead of http:// ?
  609. # [21:19] <DanC> something like that, yes. But it doesn't seem likely.
  610. # [21:20] <Philip> I can't think of a way to do that without encountering bugs/undefinedness in how file: URLs work
  611. # [21:23] <DanC> yes, I'd like to leave the file: hairball alone.
  612. # [21:24] <gsnedders> are there any RSCND spec?
  613. # [22:03] * Quits: smedero (smedero@192.223.6.251) (Quit: smedero)
  614. # [22:19] <DanC> hmm... the graph here suggests utf-8 is on the rise while GB2312 is on the decline. http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/05/utf8-web-growth.html
  615. # [22:23] * Joins: mjs (mjs@24.5.43.151)
  616. # [22:29] <Philip> It's not at all clear how much that reflects the web, and how much it reflects Google's crawling/indexing/ranking mechanism
  617. # [22:29] <DanC> yeah... damn lies and statistics and all
  618. # [22:30] <Philip> Also it's not clear GB2312 is declining at all, as opposed to just random wobbling in the data
  619. # [23:06] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  620. # [23:44] * Quits: hsivonen (hsivonen@130.233.41.50) (Ping timeout)
  621. # [23:44] * Quits: Hixie (ianh@129.241.93.37) (Ping timeout)
  622. # [23:44] * Joins: Hixie (ianh@129.241.93.37)
  623. # [23:46] * Joins: hsivonen (hsivonen@130.233.41.50)
  624. # Session Close: Fri Jul 18 00:00:00 2008

The end :)