/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-10-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Oct 23 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  17. # [03:58] <pimpbot> planet: W3CTP: The Technical Plenary Day <http://annevankesteren.nl/2008/10/w3ctp-plenary-day>
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  20. # [04:58] <pimpbot> planet: Chris on Internet Explorer 8 and the W3C HTML Working Group <http://standardssuck.org/chris>
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  27. # [08:20] <pimpbot> hsivonen: Sent 1 day, 18 hours, and 31 minutes ago: <MikeSmith> Henri, please ping me when you get back online
  28. # [08:21] <hsivonen> hmm. Mike isn't here for pinging
  29. # [08:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: seen Mike?
  30. # [08:24] <Hixie> no
  31. # [08:24] <Hixie> but then i'm in my bed
  32. # [08:24] <Hixie> so i'd have been surprised if i had
  33. # [08:24] <Hixie> i'm about to shower and come down
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  36. # [08:35] * anne is tired
  37. # [08:35] * anne might be slightly late
  38. # [08:35] * anne hasn't slept much at all
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  41. # [08:39] * karl sees nobody in html wg room
  42. # [08:39] <karl> we are just two so far
  43. # [08:40] <karl> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Oct/0074.html
  44. # [08:40] <pimpbot> Title: Final agenda for Oct. 23-24 face-to-face meeting from Michael(tm) Smith on 2008-10-22 (public-html@w3.org from October 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  45. # [08:41] <karl> agenda says starting at 9am
  46. # [08:43] <anne> I suppose I should try to be there on time
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  60. # [09:16] * gsnedders is now not sitting right next to a table leg, and feels better
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  62. # [09:16] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-html-wg-irc
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  64. # [09:17] * DanC_lap waves to hsivonen
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  67. # [09:18] <DanC_lap> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Oct/0074.html
  68. # [09:18] <pimpbot> Title: Final agenda for Oct. 23-24 face-to-face meeting from Michael(tm) Smith on 2008-10-22 (public-html@w3.org from October 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  69. # [09:19] * DanC_lap volunteers to scribe 'till 11am
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  72. # [09:20] * DanC_lap volunteers to scribe 'till 11am
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  87. # [09:23] <DanC_lap> Present: Dean Jackson, Ian Hickson, Sean Medero, gsnedders, Karl Dubost, Lachlan Hunt ...
  88. # [09:23] * gsnedders notes we have an equal number of obs and members
  89. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> scribenick: DanC_lap
  90. # [09:24] <DanC_lap> Cynthia, Murray, Anne, Julian, Dan, Adrian, Chris W, Mike Smith
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  92. # [09:24] <DanC_lap> Cooper, Allen, Janina [sp?], Dave Baron, [help?], kai hendry [sp?], PLH
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  94. # [09:25] <DanC_lap> ArtB, Noah M., [help?], [help?], ylafon
  95. # [09:25] * Joins: plh (plh@128.30.52.28)
  96. # [09:25] <DanC_lap> ... OT
  97. # [09:25] <smedero> s/Sean Medero/Shawn Medero/
  98. # [09:25] <DanC_lap> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Oct/0074.html
  99. # [09:25] <pimpbot> Title: Final agenda for Oct. 23-24 face-to-face meeting from Michael(tm) Smith on 2008-10-22 (public-html@w3.org from October 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  100. # [09:25] <gsnedders> s/gsnedders/Geoffrey Sneddon/
  101. # [09:25] * DanC_lap sorry Shawn. thanks.
  102. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Oct/0074.html
  103. # [09:25] <pimpbot> Title: Final agenda for Oct. 23-24 face-to-face meeting from Michael(tm) Smith on 2008-10-22 (public-html@w3.org from October 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  104. # [09:29] * MichaelC requests to do the implicit roles one in tomorrow's slot
  105. # [09:29] * DanC_lap caches... implicit accesibility ... authoring guide
  106. # [09:29] <DanC_lap> MikeSmith reviews agenda
  107. # [09:29] * Quits: plh (plh@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  108. # [09:30] <DanC_lap> Cynthia: unconference topic: implicit accessibility roles/topics
  109. # [09:30] <DanC_lap> Lachlan: authring guide
  110. # [09:32] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@81.253.48.80)
  111. # [09:34] <DanC_lap> MikeSmith: exec4 is reserved for unconference sessions this PM
  112. # [09:35] <DanC_lap> +hsivonen
  113. # [09:35] * Zakim wonders where hsivonen is
  114. # [09:36] * dbaron RRSAgent, pointer?
  115. # [09:36] * RRSAgent See http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-html-wg-irc#T07-29-33
  116. # [09:36] <mjs> ooh, implicit accessibility rules
  117. # [09:36] * Joins: JonathanJ (hollobit@81.253.46.45)
  118. # [09:36] <mjs> *roles
  119. # [09:36] * dbaron RRSAgent, make logs public
  120. # [09:36] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, dbaron
  121. # [09:37] <DanC_lap> MikeSmith: re testing, I suggest we update the annotations on the spec about which parts are stable, tested, etc.
  122. # [09:38] * DanC_lap hunts for a pointer to those annotations
  123. # [09:38] <anne> they are inside the WHATWG version of the spec DanC_lap
  124. # [09:38] <anne> in the sideline
  125. # [09:39] <DanC_lap> there's some php interface to update them, yes?
  126. # [09:39] <Hixie> perl, but yes
  127. # [09:39] <Hixie> alt-double-click a section to update that section
  128. # [09:40] <Hixie> you have to log in first (link at the top right) -- if you don't have an account (most people who have sent feedback automatically have one set up) let me know
  129. # [09:40] <DanC_lap> hmm... one day I'm pretty sure I figured out how to just GET the annotations
  130. # [09:40] <anne> there's an API somewhere
  131. # [09:41] * gsnedders BenMillard just txted me to say he doesn't feel great and won't be here unless he is urgently needed
  132. # [09:42] <DanC_lap> regrets+ Ben Millard
  133. # [09:42] * Joins: arun (arun@81.253.45.248)
  134. # [09:42] <Hixie> DanC_lap: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/status.cgi?action=get-all-annotations
  135. # [09:43] <Hixie> DanC_lap: i think there's documentation but i can't find it at the moment. drop me a mail if you want me to hussle some up
  136. # [09:44] <DanC_lap> the docs were sufficient last time I needed it
  137. # [09:45] <DanC_lap> Topic: ISSUE-13 handling-http-401-status
  138. # [09:45] <gsnedders> http://www.whatwg.org/issues/#WF3-httpauth
  139. # [09:45] <pimpbot> Title: WHATWG Issues List (at www.whatwg.org)
  140. # [09:46] <DanC_lap> JR: I saw discussion on the whatwg mailing list about authentication...
  141. # [09:46] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/issues/#WF2-http-auth-login-logout
  142. # [09:46] <pimpbot> Title: WHATWG Issues List (at www.whatwg.org)
  143. # [09:46] <DanC_lap> ... web designers rarely used http authentication...
  144. # [09:46] <DanC_lap> ... if we could [missed], it might help
  145. # [09:46] * DanC_lap not now?
  146. # [09:47] <karl> q+ algiman
  147. # [09:47] * Zakim sees algiman on the speaker queue
  148. # [09:47] <DanC_lap> Hixie: I have a pile of mail on this authentication issue
  149. # [09:47] <Julian_Reschke> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/13
  150. # [09:47] <karl> q- algiman
  151. # [09:47] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  152. # [09:47] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-13 - HTML Issue Tracking Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  153. # [09:47] <karl> q+ algilman
  154. # [09:47] * Zakim sees algilman on the speaker queue
  155. # [09:47] <DanC_lap> Anne: it's probably important to handle logout at the same time
  156. # [09:47] <karl> q?
  157. # [09:47] * Zakim sees algilman on the speaker queue
  158. # [09:48] <DanC_lap> Hixie: this would make a good unconference session topic... I'd like to brainstorm... I haven't seen a good transition strategy
  159. # [09:48] <karl> ack algilman
  160. # [09:48] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  161. # [09:48] * dbaron wonders what element Hixie mentioned
  162. # [09:48] <DanC_lap> agenda+ implicit accessibility roles [Cynthia]
  163. # [09:48] * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
  164. # [09:48] <DanC_lap> agenda + authoring guide [Lachy]
  165. # [09:48] * Zakim notes agendum 2 added
  166. # [09:49] <DanC_lap> agenda + authentication brainstorm [JR/IH]
  167. # [09:49] * Zakim notes agendum 3 added
  168. # [09:49] <DanC_lap> AlG: want to bookmark some connection... [missed]
  169. # [09:49] <DanC_lap> Hixie: while we're at it, we'd like people to use digest rather than basic
  170. # [09:50] <DanC_lap> JR: yes, there's a bit of a chicken-and-egg deadlock between http protocol design and browser development
  171. # [09:50] <DanC_lap> present+ Al Gilman
  172. # [09:50] <DanC_lap> ... co-chair WAI PF WG
  173. # [09:51] * MichaelC notes Joshue has commitments in the ATAG agenda today...
  174. # [09:51] <DanC_lap> Topic: ISSUE-20 table-headers
  175. # [09:51] <DanC_lap> regrets+ Joshue
  176. # [09:52] <Laura> regrets+ Laura
  177. # [09:52] <DanC_lap> Al: issue summary: data presented in tables depends on context...
  178. # [09:53] <DanC_lap> ... in a visual scan, it's usually easy to scan to the top of the column or start of row to get context
  179. # [09:53] <DanC_lap> ... we [WAI?] have been asking that the context be machine readable...
  180. # [09:54] <DanC_lap> ... assistive technology provides a guesture for asking for this context for a cell
  181. # [09:55] <DanC_lap> Al: we've seen some proposals... we're interested in deployment in browsers of some algorithms
  182. # [09:55] <DanC_lap> MS: discussion supports the utility of the functionality in general...
  183. # [09:56] <MichaelC> q+ to suggest the use cases need to be further understood before getting into conformance rules
  184. # [09:56] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
  185. # [09:56] <DanC_lap> ... the disagreement in the discussion is about whether the @headers attribute may refer to <td> elements or is constrained to <th>
  186. # [09:56] <DanC_lap> [refinements from LH/HS... too fast for scribe... can you guys write them down?]
  187. # [09:56] <anne> (From what I gathered during a PF meeting having headers for headers would be enough.)
  188. # [09:57] <Laura> Proposals: http://tinyurl.com/6phdwg
  189. # [09:57] <pimpbot> Title: HTML/IssueTableHeaders - ESW Wiki (at tinyurl.com)
  190. # [09:57] <anne> (Example why that is needed anyway: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Aug/att-0003/offset-mess.htm )
  191. # [09:57] <pimpbot> Title: layout height attributes on body and html elements (at lists.w3.org)
  192. # [09:57] <DanC_lap> AlG: some [hallway? PF?] discussion made progress... [something about table header chaining]
  193. # [09:58] <DanC_lap> MS: I'd like to have Josh before we get too much further in
  194. # [09:58] <DanC_lap> Hixie: I'm about 86 messages behind on discussion of use cases for this design issue
  195. # [09:58] * Lachy DanC_lap, nevermind what I said. The way you minuted it is correct, though I had said MikeSmith had mentinoed th/td elements in reverse
  196. # [09:58] * DanC_lap tx
  197. # [09:58] * MichaelC went looking for Joshue in IRC, no luck
  198. # [09:58] <DanC_lap> AlG: see "function and impacts" thread
  199. # [09:59] <smedero> Al's email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Sep/0362.html
  200. # [09:59] <pimpbot> Title: function and impacts (was: scope and headers reform) from Al Gilman on 2008-09-14 (public-html@w3.org from September 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  201. # [09:59] <DanC_lap> AlG: see "function and impacts" thread for a re-cap and high-level framing
  202. # [09:59] <DanC_lap> MC: the discussion around use cases seem more productive than discussion of tags/attributes/conformance
  203. # [10:00] <MichaelC> ack me
  204. # [10:00] <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to suggest the use cases need to be further understood before getting into conformance rules
  205. # [10:00] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  206. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> q?
  207. # [10:00] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  208. # [10:00] <DanC_lap> Hixie: quite. I always consider use cases before making markup design decisions
  209. # [10:01] <MichaelC> q+ to respond use cases have evolved, so nittie-gritties need revisiting
  210. # [10:01] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
  211. # [10:01] <DanC_lap> MM: there's a lot of existing practice since 1994... why not use that?
  212. # [10:01] <MichaelC> q-
  213. # [10:01] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  214. # [10:01] <DanC_lap> Hixie: we're re-considering design of many[all?] HTML details in the light of another 10 years of experience
  215. # [10:01] * Quits: noah (noah_mende@81.253.43.6) (Ping timeout)
  216. # [10:02] <DanC_lap> AlG: to recap this week's discussion briefly, there's room for improvement... what's in the field is arduous for authors
  217. # [10:02] * Joins: noah (noah_mende@81.253.43.6)
  218. # [10:03] <DanC_lap> MS: so I hear relevant parties are more likely to be available tomorrow PM
  219. # [10:03] <DanC_lap> AlG: but I'm not sure I have Josh tomorrow
  220. # [10:04] * Joins: fantasai (fantasai@66.252.19.122)
  221. # [10:06] <DanC_lap> agenda?
  222. # [10:06] * Zakim sees 3 items remaining on the agenda:
  223. # [10:06] * Zakim 1. implicit accessibility roles [from Cynthia via DanC_lap]
  224. # [10:06] * Zakim 2. authoring guide [from Lachy via DanC_lap]
  225. # [10:06] * Zakim 3. authentication brainstorm [from JR/IH via DanC_lap]
  226. # [10:06] <DanC_lap> agenda + table headers attribute [MS]
  227. # [10:06] * Zakim notes agendum 4 added
  228. # [10:07] <DanC_lap> agenda + SVG in HTML [MS]
  229. # [10:07] * Zakim notes agendum 5 added
  230. # [10:07] * DanC_lap wonders this summary is opening discussion of the issue
  231. # [10:09] <DanC_lap> Topic: ISSUE-37 html-svg-mathml
  232. # [10:10] <DanC_lap> MS: SVG WG asked for more discussion before releasing a draft including an earlier proposal
  233. # [10:10] * MichaelC no luck tracing Josh
  234. # [10:10] * DanC_lap wishes for a pointer
  235. # [10:10] <DanC_lap> MM: and MathML?
  236. # [10:10] * smedero pointer for what DanC_lap?
  237. # [10:11] * DanC_lap for msg from SVG wg a la "slow down"
  238. # [10:11] * smedero gotcha
  239. # [10:11] <DanC_lap> MM: MathML advocates seem satisfied with current draft on MathML integration
  240. # [10:11] * Joins: marcos (marcos@81.253.13.196)
  241. # [10:12] * hsivonen s/MM/Hixie/ for the last line?
  242. # [10:12] <smedero> SVG WG's counter proposal to the HTML WG is on their wiki: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG_in_text-html
  243. # [10:12] <pimpbot> Title: SVG in text-html - SVG (at www.w3.org)
  244. # [10:12] <DanC_lap> s/MM: MathML/MS: MathML/
  245. # [10:12] * Joins: najib (chatzilla@81.253.53.126)
  246. # [10:13] <DanC_lap> Topic: ISSUE-41 Decentralized-extensibility
  247. # [10:13] <gsnedders> The current draft is http://dev.w3.org/SVG/proposals/svg-html/svg-html-proposal.html AFAIK
  248. # [10:13] <pimpbot> Title: SVG and HTML (at dev.w3.org)
  249. # [10:14] <DanC_lap> MS: the tech plenary discussion yesterday touched on this.
  250. # [10:14] <DanC_lap> AlG: is the TAG session intended to cover this?
  251. # [10:14] * Quits: Norbert (51fd2b1c@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
  252. # [10:14] * Joins: Norbert (51fd2b1c@128.30.52.43)
  253. # [10:15] <DanC_lap> MS: given the time, the TAG expressed a preference to discuss modularization. Some TAG members particularly interested in modularization aren't here
  254. # [10:16] * gsnedders anne pointer?
  255. # [10:16] <DanC_lap> s/in modularization/in distributed extensibility/
  256. # [10:17] <anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2008Oct/0031.html (Member-only)
  257. # [10:17] <anne> (in response to gsnedders)
  258. # [10:18] * karl feels that Mike will loose the screen very soon. Power of the macbook down.
  259. # [10:18] * DanC_lap notes the irony in "I'm not going to talk about 52..."
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  262. # [10:19] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233) (Ping timeout)
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  264. # [10:21] <smedero> Julian_Reschke: didn't you say you found a new info on ISSUE-54? That there was a similar problem with ASP.NET?
  265. # [10:21] <Julian_Reschke> on issue 52: do we have a separate issue for other issues for current HTML generators, such as wrt to new empty tags?
  266. # [10:22] * CWilso wonders if Mike needs to borrow a MB power adapter
  267. # [10:22] <Julian_Reschke> smedero: yes, the "xslt-compat" name is misleading; it's needed for more content producers
  268. # [10:22] <DanC_lap> no, I haven't seen a separate issue on new empty tags, though I'd want to see a more concrete problem/issue before adding it to the list
  269. # [10:22] <smedero> Julian_Reschke: have you sent an email on that anywhere? I was going to link that up to the issue... if not, nevermind.
  270. # [10:22] <Hixie> we could change it to "legacy-compat" or some such
  271. # [10:22] * Joins: jun (fujisawa_j@81.253.44.35)
  272. # [10:23] <DanC_lap> eek... "legacy-compat" sounds like a huge swap
  273. # [10:23] * Quits: Shunsuke (Shunsuke@123.176.107.234) (Quit: Tiarra 0.1+svn-20015: SIGINT received; exit)
  274. # [10:23] <Hixie> that's the idea :-)
  275. # [10:23] <Julian_Reschke> smedero: can't recall; maybe it was mentioned on IRC somewhere
  276. # [10:23] <DanC_lap> swamp, I meant
  277. # [10:23] <Hixie> we need something that sounds bad so that people don't think it's the more cool thing
  278. # [10:23] <DanC_lap> MS: tomorrow at 2pm for SVG/HTML?
  279. # [10:24] * Joins: ed (ed@81.253.56.158)
  280. # [10:24] <DanC_lap> agenda 5 = SVG in text/html 2pm Fri [Doug]
  281. # [10:24] * Zakim notes agendum 5 replaced
  282. # [10:25] <DanC_lap> agenda 5 = SVG in text/html 2pm Fri exec 7 [Doug]
  283. # [10:25] * Zakim notes agendum 5 replaced
  284. # [10:25] <DanC_lap> agenda 5 = SVG in text/html 2pm Fri rm exec 7 [Doug]
  285. # [10:25] * Zakim notes agendum 5 replaced
  286. # [10:25] <anne> Hixie, maybe just "compat"
  287. # [10:25] <DanC_lap> MS: how many ppl? 12-ish
  288. # [10:26] * Joins: Shunsuke (Shunsuke@123.176.107.234)
  289. # [10:26] <DanC_lap> "compat" with what? more specific, please
  290. # [10:26] <anne> tools that can't generate <!DOCTYPE html>
  291. # [10:26] <DanC_lap> +Joshue
  292. # [10:26] * Zakim wonders where Joshue is
  293. # [10:27] * Quits: ed (ed@81.253.56.158) (Quit: ed)
  294. # [10:27] <DanC_lap> ah. that suggest overlap with issue-4 "HTML Versioning and DOCTYPEs"
  295. # [10:27] <DanC_lap> agenda/
  296. # [10:27] <DanC_lap> agenda?
  297. # [10:27] * Zakim sees 5 items remaining on the agenda:
  298. # [10:27] * Zakim 1. implicit accessibility roles [from Cynthia via DanC_lap]
  299. # [10:27] * Zakim 2. authoring guide [from Lachy via DanC_lap]
  300. # [10:27] * Zakim 3. authentication brainstorm [from JR/IH via DanC_lap]
  301. # [10:27] * Zakim 4. table headers attribute [from MS via DanC_lap]
  302. # [10:27] * Zakim 5. SVG in text/html 2pm Fri rm exec 7 [Doug]
  303. # [10:28] <DanC_lap> agenda 4 = table headers attribute 4pm-4:45pm Thu [Joshue]
  304. # [10:28] * Zakim notes agendum 4 replaced
  305. # [10:29] * Quits: hsivonen (hsivonen@130.233.41.50) (Ping timeout)
  306. # [10:30] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  307. # [10:30] * DanC_lap welcomes volutneers to scribe the -- gee. she _is_ good!
  308. # [10:30] <fantasai> Mike: Next major issue is modularization of the spec
  309. # [10:30] <fantasai> Mike: The TAG has concerns about this
  310. # [10:31] <fantasai> Anne: Shouldn't we discuss other topics?
  311. # [10:31] <fantasai> ...
  312. # [10:31] <fantasai> Mike: About the authentication discussion
  313. # [10:31] * Joins: Joshue (Joshue@81.253.57.141)
  314. # [10:31] <fantasai> Mike asks about scheduling
  315. # [10:31] * DanC_lap wonders if fantasai is willing to scribe the tag session
  316. # [10:32] * Joins: anthony (chatzilla@203.12.172.254)
  317. # [10:32] <fantasai> Mike: So from 4:45 until ... 5:30?
  318. # [10:32] <fantasai> Mike: For the authentication discussion
  319. # [10:32] * fantasai DanC_lap depends what you mean by that
  320. # [10:32] <DanC_lap> agenda 3 = authentication brainstorm 4:45pm Thu [JR/IH]
  321. # [10:32] * Zakim notes agendum 3 replaced
  322. # [10:33] <fantasai> Mike: So just before we take a break and before we have the TAG members show up
  323. # [10:33] * MichaelC when are the other unconference sessions?
  324. # [10:33] <fantasai> Mike: Does anybody have any thoughts on modularization?
  325. # [10:33] * DanC_lap was just going to welcome volunteers to scribe the next session, and you started scribing. I wonder whether to take that as an offer to scribe the next session
  326. # [10:33] <fantasai> Mike: So the issue is .. we've had this discussion a lot ourselves
  327. # [10:33] <fantasai> Mike: I think there's general consensus to split out certain parts of the spec
  328. # [10:33] <fantasai> Mike: The issue is do we have editors that are willing to work on these separate parts. That's been the iggest blocking factor
  329. # [10:34] <fantasai> Mike: ... discussion with the TAG. That's where we're at as a WG with the issue
  330. # [10:34] <fantasai> Mike: Any other thoughts on that before we talk with TAG?
  331. # [10:34] <fantasai> ?: Do you want to take a shot at explaining that?
  332. # [10:34] <fantasai> ?: Whether there's one editor or three editors, there's still one document or multiple documents
  333. # [10:34] <DanC_lap> s/?:/MM:/
  334. # [10:35] <fantasai> Hixie explains that the overhead of editing multiple specs is high
  335. # [10:35] * Joins: ed (ed@81.253.58.64)
  336. # [10:35] * Joins: hsivonen (hsivonen@81.253.48.240)
  337. # [10:35] <fantasai> MM: That's not my experience
  338. # [10:35] <fantasai> ??: It is mine
  339. # [10:35] <Julian_Reschke> nor mime
  340. # [10:35] <DanC_lap> s/??:/marcos:/
  341. # [10:35] <DanC_lap> +marcos
  342. # [10:35] * Zakim wonders where marcos is
  343. # [10:35] <Julian_Reschke> s/mime/mine/
  344. # [10:35] <fantasai> Mike: We have had some discussions about modularization, but the resolution -- or non-resolution -- was that we haven't had people volunteer to take on other parts of the spec
  345. # [10:35] <fantasai> Mike: A specific example of this is ...
  346. # [10:36] * Quits: noah (noah_mende@81.253.43.6) (Ping timeout)
  347. # [10:36] <DanC_lap> Marcos Caceres
  348. # [10:36] <fantasai> Mike: A large part of the spec is the spec for the window object
  349. # [10:36] <fantasai> Mike: It used to be a separate spec
  350. # [10:36] <fantasai> Mike: And we agree it should be a separate spec
  351. # [10:36] <fantasai> Mike: But we didn't have an editor, so we merged it into the HTML5 spec
  352. # [10:36] <fantasai> Mike: There are alots of things in HTML5 that rely on it
  353. # [10:36] <fantasai> Mike: If we had someone to take over ...
  354. # [10:37] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Quit: tlr)
  355. # [10:37] <fantasai> ??: ...
  356. # [10:37] <fantasai> Hixie: The window part is a big part of the spec
  357. # [10:37] <fantasai> Mike: what about ..
  358. # [10:37] <fantasai> Hixie: there's too much stuff that relies on it
  359. # [10:38] <fantasai> Hixie: The remote event target would be a better choice. That's a reasonably self-contained thing. i'd estimate 5 hours a week for a few months and then 1 hour a week for a year
  360. # [10:38] <fantasai> ??: ... might get more people to volunteer if you have chunks like 5 hours / week
  361. # [10:38] <fantasai> Hixie: The more trivial sections are done
  362. # [10:38] <fantasai> Hixie: Stuff like canvas etc. that are 40 hours a week for a year, those are where we really need eidtors
  363. # [10:38] <fantasai> Hixie: Particularly rendering view
  364. # [10:39] <fantasai> Hixie: that really is a separate document
  365. # [10:39] <fantasai> Hixie: The section that defines legacy attributes
  366. # [10:39] <fantasai> Mike: If you look at the current spec, that section says "to come"
  367. # [10:39] <fantasai> Hixie: It didn't really make sense to define it until about now.
  368. # [10:39] <fantasai> Mike: What we expect from having a discusison with the TAG, one of the tangible things we can talk about
  369. # [10:40] * MichaelC thinks it should be possible to come with strategies to edit sections of the doc that aren't trivial, but don't require 40 hours / week either (happy medium in commitment and value)
  370. # [10:40] * DanC_lap realizes we blew by the break time
  371. # [10:40] <fantasai> Mike: ... we do have time set aside tomorrow to go through and look at the spec section by section and decide which parts of it are mature and stable with an eye towards what we're ready to write testcases for.
  372. # [10:40] <fantasai> Mike: But also look at what sections we can split out and look for editors for
  373. # [10:40] <fantasai> Mike: Then we could make proposals about parts of the spec that could be taken on by separate editors
  374. # [10:40] <fantasai> Mike: And if we have a concrete list, an assesment about which parts and what level of effort would be needed to maintain that part of the spec
  375. # [10:41] <fantasai> Mika: Then we could maybe get more people interested in parts of the spec
  376. # [10:41] <fantasai> Hixie: I've been privately approaching people. Also someone from Opera recently asked about working on the timer starts
  377. # [10:41] <fantasai> Hixie: Some sections are marked "i'm looking for an editor"
  378. # [10:41] <fantasai> Hixie: Even then it's taken me a year to find someone for timer
  379. # [10:41] * Joins: hsivonen_ (hsivonen@130.233.41.50)
  380. # [10:42] * Quits: ArtB (51fd2d06@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
  381. # [10:42] <fantasai> Hixie: Timer is a good example of how hard it is to estimate time needed
  382. # [10:42] <fantasai> Hixie: between the time when I first started looking for ane editor and now, the work tripled
  383. # [10:42] <fantasai> Hixie: because the webapps group became looking at a next-generation timing ...
  384. # [10:42] <fantasai> Hixie: the problem we had with the window object was that we thought it was very small, 2-line api
  385. # [10:43] <fantasai> Hixie: And now it's a third of the spec, and the editor couldn't cope with what became the scope of the work.
  386. # [10:43] <fantasai> Hsivonen: Another thing is that the editor to do a good job needs to have extended exposure to the bug database of a browser engine
  387. # [10:43] <fantasai> Hixie: or preferably more than one
  388. # [10:43] <fantasai> Hsivonen: And there aren't very many people with that kind of exposure.
  389. # [10:43] <DanC_lap> (seems like we could separate editing and authoring/design more.)
  390. # [10:43] * Quits: hsivonen (hsivonen@81.253.48.240) (Quit: hsivonen)
  391. # [10:43] * Quits: Joshue (Joshue@81.253.57.141) (Quit: Computer goes to sleep!)
  392. # [10:43] <fantasai> Mike: So let's put together a list of what parts of the spec we could split out and how much work we think they'll be
  393. # [10:44] <fantasai> Mike: but let's take a break and come back at 11.
  394. # [10:44] <fantasai> BREAK
  395. # [10:44] * Quits: Laura (laura@131.212.34.26) (Quit: Laura)
  396. # [10:45] <fantasai> s/??/Cynthia/
  397. # [10:46] * Quits: Julian_Reschke (chatzilla@81.253.30.64) (Ping timeout)
  398. # [10:47] * Quits: najib (chatzilla@81.253.53.126) (Ping timeout)
  399. # [10:47] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@81.253.48.80) (Ping timeout)
  400. # [10:49] <mjs> DanC_lap, it's not clear to me that would improve matters; few people are qualified to do the authoring/design, while the mechanical edits are at the same time only a small fraction of the work and also opportunities for introducing errors into the design
  401. # [10:52] * Joins: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38)
  402. # [10:53] <Yves> 2
  403. # [11:06] * Joins: myakura (myakura@81.253.62.167)
  404. # [11:07] * Joins: najib (chatzilla@81.253.63.33)
  405. # [11:10] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@81.253.48.80)
  406. # [11:12] * Joins: Julian_Reschke (chatzilla@81.253.0.196)
  407. # [11:12] * gsnedders notes there are a few gaps around the table
  408. # [11:14] * Joins: hsivonen (hsivonen@81.253.1.46)
  409. # [11:15] * gsnedders is reminded by CWilso of the whole camera thing
  410. # [11:15] * Quits: hsivonen (hsivonen@81.253.1.46) (Quit: hsivonen)
  411. # [11:15] * hsivonen_ is now known as hsivonen
  412. # [11:17] <dino> what is the whole camera thing?
  413. # [11:18] <fantasai> Topic: TAG joint meeting
  414. # [11:18] * Joins: Joshue (Joshue@81.253.1.28)
  415. # [11:18] <fantasai> Mike: Next hour and a half discussion with TAG
  416. # [11:18] <fantasai> Mik: A number of issues potential topics
  417. # [11:18] <fantasai> Mike: Modularization of spec is top one
  418. # [11:18] <fantasai> Mike: Other topics are on the list as well.
  419. # [11:18] <anne> celebreties at the table man
  420. # [11:19] <anne> (re dino)
  421. # [11:19] <fantasai> Mike: Since we have time and attention of TAG, we should try to discuss those issue too
  422. # [11:19] * Joins: noah (noah_mende@81.253.1.255)
  423. # [11:19] <fantasai> Mike: BUt we start with modularization
  424. # [11:19] <fantasai> Mike: First I'd like to do a quick self-intro
  425. # [11:19] * Quits: marcos (marcos@81.253.13.196) (Connection reset by peer)
  426. # [11:19] * Joins: gsnedders_ (gsnedders@81.253.43.215)
  427. # [11:19] <DanC_lap> Henry Thompson
  428. # [11:19] <dbaron> Henry Thompson, U of Edinburgh
  429. # [11:19] * noah My name is spelled Noah Mendelsohn
  430. # [11:19] * Joins: Norm (ndw@81.253.31.184)
  431. # [11:19] <DanC_lap> Norm Walsh
  432. # [11:19] <dbaron> Norm Walsh, Mark Logic
  433. # [11:19] * Joins: marcos (marcos@81.253.13.196)
  434. # [11:19] <Norm> Norman Walsh, Mark Logic Corporation
  435. # [11:20] * Joins: nessy (nessy@81.253.1.216)
  436. # [11:20] <dbaron> Tim Berners-Lee
  437. # [11:20] <dbaron> T. V. Raman, Google
  438. # [11:20] <Norm> Ashok Malhotra
  439. # [11:20] * Joins: ht (ht@128.30.52.30)
  440. # [11:20] <dbaron> Ashok Malhotra, Oracle
  441. # [11:20] <Norm> s/tra/tra, Oracle
  442. # [11:20] <dbaron> Noah Mendelssohn, IBM
  443. # [11:20] * Joins: sicking (chatzilla@81.253.1.206)
  444. # [11:20] * fantasai asks if anyone has duct tape handy
  445. # [11:20] <ht> ssohn/sohn/
  446. # [11:21] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@81.253.43.215) (Connection reset by peer)
  447. # [11:21] <noah> Noah Mendelsohn, IBM
  448. # [11:21] * Joins: timbl (timbl@81.253.1.232)
  449. # [11:21] * CWilso heh. Sorry, fantasai, I would have duct tape with me if I were diving on this trip.
  450. # [11:21] <dbaron> (and Dan Connolly)
  451. # [11:21] <Norm> Missing from the TAG: Stuart Williams, Dave Orchard, Jonathan Reese
  452. # [11:21] <fantasai> Mike: So first topic is Modularization of the HTML5 spec
  453. # [11:21] * smedero left his duct tape in his homeland security kit
  454. # [11:22] <fantasai> Mike: I think best way to start discussion is for members of the TAG want to discuss the problem they see here.
  455. # [11:22] * dbaron notes speaker is Henry Thompson
  456. # [11:22] <dino> fantasai, there is a Castorama 10mins walk up the road. It will have duct tape.
  457. # [11:22] <fantasai> Henry: I care a lot about distinguishing about the definition of the language as a forma artifcat and the discussion of the behavior of what browsers do with something that purports to be of that language.
  458. # [11:23] <dbaron> s/forma artifcat/formal artifact/
  459. # [11:23] <fantasai> Henry: There are two issus, one is whether the spec for the formal language is a separate spec, the other is whether that is defined.
  460. # [11:23] <fantasai> Henry: Is there such an authoring spec?
  461. # [11:24] <fantasai> Hixie: There has always been an intent to have that.
  462. # [11:24] <fantasai> Hixie: There are two: one is a stylesheet applied to the spec, the other is a non-normative guide.
  463. # [11:24] <fantasai> Tim: ... the parts that define the valid document and that that define error-recovery are separate and flagged differently.
  464. # [11:25] <anne> (Simon being Simon Pieters)
  465. # [11:25] <fantasai> Tim: ... synchronization with the spec
  466. # [11:25] <fantasai> Hixie: Because the spec has a lot of churn, it would be hard to ...
  467. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> q?
  468. # [11:25] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  469. # [11:25] <fantasai> Tim: Once it's been done once could one assume it would be simple to add tags to the new content?
  470. # [11:25] <fantasai> Hixie: I'd like to epmhasize that the spec is not just for browsers, but for all user agents
  471. # [11:26] <fantasai> Noah?: I'm coming from the same place that Henry is.
  472. # [11:26] * Joins: zcorpan (zcorpan@213.236.208.22)
  473. # [11:26] <dbaron> s/Noah?/Noah/
  474. # [11:26] <fantasai> Noah?: I'd also like to say that the TAG as a whole has no opinion on this. We're here to learn
  475. # [11:26] * karl notes that a stylesheet will extract the content model but there is a lot of work to do to make it readable by people. Good thing to do but just a first step.
  476. # [11:26] <fantasai> Noah: I'm speaking for me personally, not for the TAG.
  477. # [11:26] <dbaron> s/Noah?/Noah/
  478. # [11:26] * karl talking about authoring spec
  479. # [11:26] <fantasai> Noah: One lurking issue is to what extent you believe that over a period of 5-10 years, most user agents will do pretty much what the spec you're writing says.
  480. # [11:27] <fantasai> Hixie: Over a period of 5-10 years either the browsers will change to match the spec, or the spec will change to match the browser.
  481. # [11:27] * CWilso notes that now that I ran upstairs to change to a warmer shirt, they've cranked up the heat. Sigh.
  482. # [11:27] <fantasai> Noah: Browsers do crazy stuff. They will keep parsing through tag soup, everything but the kitchen sink.
  483. # [11:27] <fantasai> Noah: What about parsers for other applications. Will they do the same quirky stuff?
  484. # [11:27] <fantasai> Hixie: Yes.
  485. # [11:28] <karl> q+
  486. # [11:28] * Zakim sees karl on the speaker queue
  487. # [11:28] <fantasai> Noah: I think it's good ot distinguish over time a clean HTML format.
  488. # [11:28] <Lachy> q+
  489. # [11:28] * Zakim sees karl, Lachy on the speaker queue
  490. # [11:28] <fantasai> Noah: And try to get people to write that.
  491. # [11:28] <fantasai> Noah: Over time that that becomes the language spec.
  492. # [11:28] <fantasai> Noah: It becomes a contract between authors and consumers
  493. # [11:29] <fantasai> Noah: The spec I would ideally like to see would be an HTML5 spec that isn't mentally for authors, but is the language spec, that says this is a table, this is ..
  494. # [11:29] <timbl> q+
  495. # [11:29] * Zakim sees karl, Lachy, timbl on the speaker queue
  496. # [11:29] <fantasai> Hixie: THat is the current spec minus theimplementation stuff.
  497. # [11:29] <fantasai> Noah: ... good, readable, well-ordered introduction to the language.
  498. # [11:29] <gsnedders_> s/THat/That/
  499. # [11:29] <fantasai> Hixie: we want the spec to be understandable and coherent.
  500. # [11:29] * gsnedders_ is now known as gsnedders
  501. # [11:30] * MikeSmith recognizes that we have a queue and will get to it after Noah's comments
  502. # [11:30] <fantasai> Hixie: We have various options. We can use a CSS style sheet to hid stuff. If that doesn't work, we could maintain a separate document (which would be a maintenance nightmare), or do some kind of transformation.
  503. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> ack karl
  504. # [11:30] * Zakim sees Lachy, timbl on the speaker queue
  505. # [11:30] <fantasai> Noah: I want it to be good quality
  506. # [11:30] <fantasai> Hixie: of course
  507. # [11:30] <fantasai> Karkl: The content.. of HTML5 is well-defined and stricter than that in HTML4.01
  508. # [11:30] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@81.253.43.215) (Connection reset by peer)
  509. # [11:30] <DanC_lap> (stricter... for example?)
  510. # [11:30] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@81.253.43.215)
  511. # [11:30] <dbaron> s/Karkl/Karl/
  512. # [11:30] * Joins: Al (alfredsgil@81.253.54.29)
  513. # [11:30] <fantasai> Karl: The content inside the spec, is not pareseable, not readable, for most people.
  514. # [11:30] <hsivonen> q+
  515. # [11:30] * Zakim sees Lachy, timbl, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  516. # [11:31] <timbl> q+ to point out to Naoh that n this case he does NOT want to se the proposed contract as in that model it has the full error recovery. In fact authors write who write in the clean subset of the language will enjor a document for that subset. But the contact with browsers. The contact in the HTML5 browser is not HTML5 conformance.
  517. # [11:31] * Zakim sees Lachy, timbl, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  518. # [11:31] <fantasai> Karl: An automatic translation with CSS or XSLT will not be enough
  519. # [11:31] <fantasai> Karl: So there is a need for a separate document.
  520. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> ack Lachy
  521. # [11:31] * Zakim sees timbl, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  522. # [11:31] <Hixie> q+ for another example tool
  523. # [11:31] * Zakim sees timbl, hsivonen, Hixie on the speaker queue
  524. # [11:31] <fantasai> Lachlan: Just wrt tools that parse HTML that aren't browsers and wrt clean HTML spec
  525. # [11:31] <marcos> +q
  526. # [11:31] * Zakim sees timbl, hsivonen, Hixie, marcos on the speaker queue
  527. # [11:31] <fantasai> Lachlan: The spec needs to define an algorithm that parses all the crap on the web.
  528. # [11:31] <karl> DanC_lap, for example no align attribute
  529. # [11:32] <DanC_lap> thanks.
  530. # [11:32] <marcos> -q
  531. # [11:32] * Zakim sees timbl, hsivonen, Hixie on the speaker queue
  532. # [11:32] <fantasai> Lachlan: The parsing section that handles the non-clean stuff is very tightly integrated into the part that handles the clean stuff
  533. # [11:32] <fantasai> Lachlan: people who want to just parse an HTML table can grab an off-the shelf library
  534. # [11:32] <Hixie> DanC_lap: also much stricter rules for nesting interactive elements, iirc
  535. # [11:32] <fantasai> Lachlan: Having a tool that only accepts clean input does not seem particularly useful.
  536. # [11:32] * karl recommends http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/09/fixing-html-with-html5 for lunch reading to DanC_lap
  537. # [11:32] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 And The Hear-Write Web - W3C Q Weblog (at www.w3.org)
  538. # [11:32] <fantasai> Anne: The spec does allow such an implementation.
  539. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> ack timbl
  540. # [11:33] <Zakim> timbl, you wanted to point out to Naoh that n this case he does NOT want to se the proposed contract as in that model it has the full error recovery. In fact authors write who
  541. # [11:33] <Zakim> ... write in the clean subset of the language will enjor a document for that subset. But the contact with browsers. The contact in the HTML5 browser is not HTML5 conformance.
  542. # [11:33] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Hixie on the speaker queue
  543. # [11:33] <fantasai> Tim: When you asked for the contract document, I suspect in this case you don't want it. Becaus ein this case the contract is that the reader will understand the clean stuff as well as the garbage
  544. # [11:33] * Philip notes pimpbot said "W3C Q Weblog", and thinks MikeSmith needs to give the bot a better HTML parser
  545. # [11:33] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@81.253.43.215) (Connection reset by peer)
  546. # [11:33] <fantasai> Tim: You'll get the whole mess.
  547. # [11:33] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@81.253.43.215)
  548. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#syntax
  549. # [11:33] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at www.w3.org)
  550. # [11:33] <Hixie> q+ for also talking about the syntax section
  551. # [11:33] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Hixie on the speaker queue
  552. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#conformance-requirements
  553. # [11:33] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at www.w3.org)
  554. # [11:33] <fantasai> Tim: ... generate a clean document without any quirks.
  555. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> q?
  556. # [11:33] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Hixie on the speaker queue
  557. # [11:33] * Quits: Al (alfredsgil@81.253.54.29) (Ping timeout)
  558. # [11:34] <fantasai> Tim: But the browser language , which is what this group is working on, ...
  559. # [11:34] <fantasai> Tim: but there's a separate language that is described as conforming HTML5
  560. # [11:34] <fantasai> Tim: that's describedin the spec
  561. # [11:34] <fantasai> Tim: but that's not the same as the contract for the browsers
  562. # [11:34] <marcos> +q
  563. # [11:34] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Hixie, marcos on the speaker queue
  564. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> q?
  565. # [11:34] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Hixie, marcos on the speaker queue
  566. # [11:34] <fantasai> Tim: ... ideally everything will be clean and won't have any quirks
  567. # [11:34] * DanC_lap encourages timbl to check what the scribe is getting, which is pretty representative of what a typical meeting attendee is getting.
  568. # [11:34] * karl notices that pimpbot has a parse error on &
  569. # [11:34] <fantasai> Tim: You applea to the contract between the reader and the writer, and the ...
  570. # [11:35] <fantasai> Noah: What you call conforming HTML5 is what I call HTMl5.
  571. # [11:35] * CWilso @danc lol
  572. # [11:35] <fantasai> Tim: That has nothing to do with what the browser accepts. It's not part of the contact.
  573. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> ack hsivonen
  574. # [11:35] * Zakim sees Hixie, marcos on the speaker queue
  575. # [11:35] <fantasai> Hsivonen: Two issues. One, for whom is this language spec intended. Karl mentioned authors.
  576. # [11:35] <fantasai> Hsivonen: THen there's the suggestion taht there be a normative description of the conforming language.
  577. # [11:36] <fantasai> Hsivonen: These are two different things.
  578. # [11:36] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/#writing-html-documents
  579. # [11:36] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at www.whatwg.org)
  580. # [11:36] * Philip thinks authors will use the validator instead of a spec, if they use anything at all
  581. # [11:36] <Hixie> er, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/syntax.html#writing-html-documents
  582. # [11:36] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at www.whatwg.org)
  583. # [11:36] <fantasai> Hsivonen: The Writing HTML section is a language-lawyer description of the character streams that will go through the parsing algorithm without hitting any error conditions
  584. # [11:36] <fantasai> Hsivonen:....
  585. # [11:36] <fantasai> Hsivonen: But if you are a typical author, yo udon't want to read the stuff in that section.
  586. # [11:37] <fantasai> Hsivonen: Part of it is because it is written very strict. It lists all the unicode characters, e.g.
  587. # [11:37] <marcos> -q
  588. # [11:37] * Zakim sees Hixie on the speaker queue
  589. # [11:37] <fantasai> Hsivonen: If we have this normative language spec, we don't get the ocument ? was talking about.
  590. # [11:37] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30)
  591. # [11:37] <marcos> s/?/lachy
  592. # [11:37] <fantasai> Hsivonen: Using this language spec for parsing, because there are no off-the s-elf parsers that don't do error recovery
  593. # [11:37] <gsnedders> s/ocument/document/
  594. # [11:38] <Hixie> -q
  595. # [11:38] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  596. # [11:38] * Joins: timeless (timeless@65.75.195.122)
  597. # [11:38] <ht> q+ ht
  598. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> q?
  599. # [11:38] * Zakim sees ht on the speaker queue
  600. # [11:38] <fantasai> Hsvonen: If you wanted something that only parsed clean conforming HTML, then you 'd have to write one. But to do error recoery you have libraries.
  601. # [11:38] * Zakim sees ht on the speaker queue
  602. # [11:38] <karl> s/off-the s-elf/off-the shelf/
  603. # [11:38] <fantasai> Marcos: ... fixation on having clean markup.
  604. # [11:38] <Julian_Reschke> q+
  605. # [11:38] * Zakim sees ht, Julian_Reschke on the speaker queue
  606. # [11:38] <fantasai> Marcos: maybe because you want a tree that is serializable as XHTML
  607. # [11:38] <DanC_lap> q+ to think out loud about the character encoding dection algorithm
  608. # [11:38] * Zakim sees ht, Julian_Reschke, DanC_lap on the speaker queue
  609. # [11:38] <fantasai> Marcos: You get a DOM tree anyway. You can convert to XML anyway.
  610. # [11:39] <fantasai> Tim: Because youauthors want to know how to write HTML, what element to put for what.
  611. # [11:39] <fantasai> Marcos: But that's what an authoring guide would be for.
  612. # [11:39] <fantasai> Marcos: ...
  613. # [11:39] <Hixie> q+
  614. # [11:39] * Zakim sees ht, Julian_Reschke, DanC_lap, Hixie on the speaker queue
  615. # [11:39] <Hixie> q-
  616. # [11:39] * Zakim sees ht, Julian_Reschke, DanC_lap on the speaker queue
  617. # [11:39] * Joins: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167)
  618. # [11:39] <fantasai> Noah: Are you saying you don't feel any need for people to fix their non-nested tags?
  619. # [11:39] <fantasai> Marcos: Yes. Who cares?
  620. # [11:39] <fantasai> Tim: There are two problems. In the short term it's confusing, teaching someone they won't get it.
  621. # [11:40] <fantasai> Tim: In the book about how to build a web page you say inside the body there are paragraphs.
  622. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> q?
  623. # [11:40] * Zakim sees ht, Julian_Reschke, DanC_lap on the speaker queue
  624. # [11:40] <fantasai> Tim: If you're somebody who has written all kinds of other documents and has been asked to produce HTML5 output, then you want something to point this programmer to
  625. # [11:40] <Hixie> q+ normative nor for users
  626. # [11:40] * Zakim Hixie, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  627. # [11:40] <fantasai> Marcos: There needs to be a balance between teaching people the markup and how the DOM is created.
  628. # [11:40] * DanC_lap wonders who has the floor
  629. # [11:40] <Hixie> q+ to normative nor for users
  630. # [11:40] * Zakim sees ht, Julian_Reschke, DanC_lap, Hixie on the speaker queue
  631. # [11:40] <fantasai> Marcos: If I write a paragraph and I write a doctype and the a <p> element.
  632. # [11:40] * karl thinks the discussion revolves around - "Do you want to teach to your children the way TimBL talks"...
  633. # [11:41] <fantasai> Marcos: The <html> and <body> are auto-generated by the parsing algorithm
  634. # [11:41] * gsnedders karl: quickly?
  635. # [11:41] <fantasai> Tim: ... if they're just going to script it, and not ...
  636. # [11:41] * Joins: Al (alfredsgil@81.253.5.55)
  637. # [11:41] <fantasai> Tim: And it looks really cool .. toutputting documetns they want it visible and usable by peopel .. in200 yars time. they want to produce something that is valid.
  638. # [11:41] <hsivonen> q+
  639. # [11:41] * Zakim sees ht, Julian_Reschke, DanC_lap, Hixie, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  640. # [11:41] <noah> q+ to wonder if we're just disagreeing on what should be normative
  641. # [11:41] * Zakim sees ht, Julian_Reschke, DanC_lap, Hixie, hsivonen, noah on the speaker queue
  642. # [11:41] <gsnedders> s/in2/in 2/
  643. # [11:41] <Julian_Reschke> q-
  644. # [11:41] * Zakim sees ht, DanC_lap, Hixie, hsivonen, noah on the speaker queue
  645. # [11:41] <gsnedders> s/yars/years/
  646. # [11:41] <fantasai> Tim: There are a class of users that need to know what exactly .. eing able to roll up some documents .. dom obviously it's much easier spec to read
  647. # [11:41] * karl gsnedders weird grammars, unfinished sentences, quick. etc. I can understand it, but I don't want to write it
  648. # [11:42] <fantasai> Marcos: The aprsing already algorithm doesn't do what you say, it inserts elements at random
  649. # [11:42] <fantasai> laughter
  650. # [11:42] <fantasai> Marcos: well not exactly at arndom
  651. # [11:42] <gsnedders> s/toutputting/to outputting/
  652. # [11:42] <sicking> q+ for when you have miss-nested tags you probably have a bug
  653. # [11:42] * Zakim sees ht, DanC_lap, Hixie, hsivonen, noah, sicking on the speaker queue
  654. # [11:42] <gsnedders> s/peopel/people/
  655. # [11:42] <fantasai> Marcos: THe parsinga algorithm of HTML5 already defines this.
  656. # [11:42] <fantasai> Marcos tries to give an example
  657. # [11:42] <karl> q?
  658. # [11:42] * Zakim sees ht, DanC_lap, Hixie, hsivonen, noah, sicking on the speaker queue
  659. # [11:42] <fantasai> Mike: I'd like to interrupt, we're straying off-topic and other peopel are on the queue
  660. # [11:42] <Hixie> q-
  661. # [11:42] * Zakim sees ht, DanC_lap, hsivonen, noah, sicking on the speaker queue
  662. # [11:42] <Julian_Reschke> q+ to say that HTML->DOM is not sufficient because there are many cases where you want to be able to process a stream of token instead of a tree (because of memory constraints)
  663. # [11:42] * Zakim sees ht, DanC_lap, hsivonen, noah, sicking, Julian_Reschke on the speaker queue
  664. # [11:42] <gsnedders> s/aprsing/parsing/
  665. # [11:42] <fantasai> Mike: we want to focus on the idea of having aseparate spec for the language.
  666. # [11:43] <gsnedders> s/arndom/random
  667. # [11:43] <fantasai> ??: We were drilling down into why we need such a spec
  668. # [11:43] <Lachy> q+
  669. # [11:43] * Zakim sees ht, DanC_lap, hsivonen, noah, sicking, Julian_Reschke, Lachy on the speaker queue
  670. # [11:43] <Norm> s/??/Murray/
  671. # [11:43] <gsnedders> s/aseper/a seper/
  672. # [11:43] <Lachy> q-
  673. # [11:43] * Zakim sees ht, DanC_lap, hsivonen, noah, sicking, Julian_Reschke on the speaker queue
  674. # [11:43] <gsnedders> s/asepar/a separ/
  675. # [11:43] <fantasai> Tim: It might be useful to have two different documents. One describes what you should send down the wire to get this result in the DOM. The other is what you shoudl send down the wire to make a web page
  676. # [11:43] <DanC_lap> ack ht
  677. # [11:43] * Zakim sees DanC_lap, hsivonen, noah, sicking, Julian_Reschke on the speaker queue
  678. # [11:43] <karl> is it just a matter of finding an editor for this document, and then discuss later on about the requirements and conformance options of this document
  679. # [11:44] <fantasai> Henry: I'm perfectly happy for as many ppl out there as want to never to use a strict parser as long as they don't mind I want to use a strict parser.
  680. # [11:44] <karl> I'm willing to write this document after November
  681. # [11:44] <fantasai> Henry: I think the case today that the students in CS are told they must submit HTML that passes the w3c validator. That's part of the education parocess.
  682. # [11:44] <fantasai> Henry: There's a substantial history of curriclulm developme t that led us to want to do that.
  683. # [11:44] <Norm> s/Murray/Murray Maloney/
  684. # [11:44] * Quits: timbl (timbl@81.253.1.232) (Connection reset by peer)
  685. # [11:44] <Hixie> MikeSmith, can i jump in here?
  686. # [11:44] <fantasai> Henry: As long as you're fine with us doing that, then I'm happy for you to use whatever parser you want to use.
  687. # [11:45] <fantasai> Henry: If the spec is going to discourage that, then I think we have a problem here.
  688. # [11:45] <gsnedders> q+ to say that strict parsers only check a very small subset of conformance
  689. # [11:45] * Zakim sees DanC_lap, hsivonen, noah, sicking, Julian_Reschke, gsnedders on the speaker queue
  690. # [11:45] * Quits: jun (fujisawa_j@81.253.44.35) (Ping timeout)
  691. # [11:45] <fantasai> Hixi: The parser define din HTML5 today allows any implementation to abort on the first error.
  692. # [11:45] <MikeSmith> q?
  693. # [11:45] * Zakim sees DanC_lap, hsivonen, noah, sicking, Julian_Reschke, gsnedders on the speaker queue
  694. # [11:45] <fantasai> Henry: That's good enough for me.
  695. # [11:45] <MikeSmith> ack DanC_lap
  696. # [11:45] <Zakim> DanC_lap, you wanted to think out loud about the character encoding dection algorithm
  697. # [11:45] * Zakim sees hsivonen, noah, sicking, Julian_Reschke, gsnedders on the speaker queue
  698. # [11:45] * Joins: timbl (timbl@81.253.1.232)
  699. # [11:45] * Joins: gsnedders_ (gsnedders@81.253.43.215)
  700. # [11:45] * Quits: seungyun (chatzilla@81.253.43.198) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417])
  701. # [11:45] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@81.253.43.215) (Connection reset by peer)
  702. # [11:45] <fantasai> DanC: The spec modularization problems that I run into are things like the character detection algorithm, which is e.g. used in some other webapp spec
  703. # [11:46] <fantasai> Tim: Sounds like a separate spec to me.
  704. # [11:46] <fantasai> DanC: I think it's been copied into the webapps spec?
  705. # [11:46] <fantasai> Marcos: we reference it?
  706. # [11:46] * gsnedders_ is now known as gsnedders
  707. # [11:46] <fantasai> DanC: Is the scheduling ok so that HTML5 will be done before you need to advance through REC track?
  708. # [11:46] <fantasai> Hixie: That section is very specific to determining hcaracter encoding for HTML
  709. # [11:47] * Quits: timbl (timbl@81.253.1.232) (Connection reset by peer)
  710. # [11:47] <fantasai> Hixie: It's not like the URI spec which is independent
  711. # [11:47] <fantasai> Hixie: this is literally part of HTML
  712. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#determining-the-character-encoding
  713. # [11:47] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at www.w3.org)
  714. # [11:47] <fantasai> Hixie: It makes sense to refer to HTML to talk about HTML
  715. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> q?
  716. # [11:47] * Zakim sees hsivonen, noah, sicking, Julian_Reschke, gsnedders on the speaker queue
  717. # [11:47] <fantasai> DanC: Suppose they want to finish their spec before HTML5?
  718. # [11:47] * fantasai is confused
  719. # [11:48] * Joins: timbl (timbl@81.253.1.232)
  720. # [11:48] <fantasai> TIm: 2 groups use the same algorithm, then typical way of doing this is to rip out that part and put it in a separate module
  721. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> fantasai, I'll try to summarize after tim
  722. # [11:48] <fantasai> Tim: Because that piece is small, it gets reviewed by a bunch of people who wouldn't look at tHTML5
  723. # [11:48] <fantasai> Tim: i18n will pore over it
  724. # [11:48] * Joins: gsnedders_ (gsnedders@81.253.43.215)
  725. # [11:48] <timeless> s/tHTML5/HTML5/
  726. # [11:49] <fantasai> Tim: and it'll go to REC fast and become a useful tool for the community
  727. # [11:49] <Lachy> q+
  728. # [11:49] * Zakim sees hsivonen, noah, sicking, Julian_Reschke, gsnedders, Lachy on the speaker queue
  729. # [11:49] * gsnedders_ wants a stable IRC connection
  730. # [11:49] * timbl thanks the scribe
  731. # [11:49] <gsnedders_> q-
  732. # [11:49] * Zakim sees hsivonen, noah, sicking, Julian_Reschke, gsnedders, Lachy on the speaker queue
  733. # [11:49] <fantasai> MikeSmitH: We already have a lot of other specs besides HTML5 that already normatively reference or will need to normatively reference parts of HTML5
  734. # [11:49] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@81.253.43.215) (Connection reset by peer)
  735. # [11:49] <anne> I note that i18n and people from Unicode have in fact reviewed those parts of HTML5
  736. # [11:49] <gsnedders_> q- gsnedders_
  737. # [11:49] * Zakim sees hsivonen, noah, sicking, Julian_Reschke, gsnedders, Lachy on the speaker queue
  738. # [11:49] <gsnedders_> q- gsnedders
  739. # [11:49] <fantasai> MikeSmith: HTML5 will block them
  740. # [11:49] * Zakim sees hsivonen, noah, sicking, Julian_Reschke, Lachy on the speaker queue
  741. # [11:49] * gsnedders_ is now known as gsnedders
  742. # [11:49] <fantasai> Hixie notes that the chardetection depends on other parts of HTML
  743. # [11:50] * Joins: dom (dom@128.30.52.30)
  744. # [11:50] <anne> Character encoding detection was e.g. discussed last year with the i18n WG
  745. # [11:50] <fantasai> MikeSmith: I don't want to split hairs on exact status details, but if our spec is not mature enough and people need to depend on parts of it, it would be easier to facilitate those references if those pieces of the spec were separate specifications and were moved along on a faster track.
  746. # [11:50] <fantasai> Hixie: it depends on the rest of the language.
  747. # [11:50] * dbaron has heard long discussions of solving the backward-references problem for a specific pair of specs many times more than the problem has actually occurred
  748. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> q?
  749. # [11:51] * Zakim sees hsivonen, noah, sicking, Julian_Reschke, Lachy on the speaker queue
  750. # [11:51] <fantasai> Hixie: So the character encoding determination seciton does it looks for a <meta> elemetn with a charset attribute
  751. # [11:51] <timeless> s/seciton/section/
  752. # [11:51] <Julian_Reschke> q-
  753. # [11:51] * Zakim sees hsivonen, noah, sicking, Lachy on the speaker queue
  754. # [11:51] <gsnedders> s/elemetn/element/
  755. # [11:51] <fantasai> Hixie: While doing that it tries to skip comments and other syntactic things.
  756. # [11:51] <fantasai> Anne: there's hookbacks from the parser
  757. # [11:51] <fantasai> Hixie: once you.. whole thing about scripts
  758. # [11:51] <fantasai> Hixie: the idea that we have a charset attribute in HTML5. That's new. We didn't have that on HTML4.
  759. # [11:51] <fantasai> Hixie: we don't have agrement on that. It might change.
  760. # [11:52] <fantasai> Hixie: until that gets accepted, then we can't move it forward.
  761. # [11:52] <fantasai> Anne: Those other people are reviewing the draft. We had comments from unicode and i18n last year.
  762. # [11:52] <Lachy> q-
  763. # [11:52] * Zakim sees hsivonen, noah, sicking on the speaker queue
  764. # [11:52] <fantasai> MikeSmith: But we aren't communicating the changes.
  765. # [11:52] <fantasai> MikeSmith: They aren't aware of our chagnes to that.
  766. # [11:53] <fantasai> Anne: I dont entirely agree. When we publish a new working draft, we list the changes.
  767. # [11:53] <fantasai> Mike: I've been trying to do that, but the number of changes is huge
  768. # [11:53] <gsnedders> s/dont/don't/
  769. # [11:53] <gsnedders> q?
  770. # [11:53] * Zakim sees hsivonen, noah, sicking on the speaker queue
  771. # [11:53] <fantasai> Mike: It's good that we are improving the spec, but it's a large number of changes. But expecting that the ppl outisde the group will be able to understand all those changes ...
  772. # [11:54] * karl testifies that Mike has a few sleepless nights because of that changes document
  773. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> ack hsivonen
  774. # [11:54] * Zakim sees noah, sicking on the speaker queue
  775. # [11:54] <fantasai> Hixie: experience with CSSWG is that splitting the specc doesn't work.
  776. # [11:54] <timeless> s/specc/spec/
  777. # [11:54] <sicking> q-
  778. # [11:54] * Zakim sees noah on the speaker queue
  779. # [11:54] <fantasai> Hsivonen: I'd like to .. marcos about ... parsing algorithm
  780. # [11:54] <fantasai> Hsivonen: I don't think author should have to figure out what kind of crazy stuff can be done.
  781. # [11:54] <gsnedders> s/../disagree with/
  782. # [11:54] <fantasai> Hsivonen: I think we should say if you do this, it will work. Don't need to explain all the other crazy stuff that could be done that would also work
  783. # [11:55] * Quits: arun (arun@81.253.45.248) (Quit: arun)
  784. # [11:55] <fantasai> Hsivonen: If you want a strict parser the right way tot do it is to take an existing one and register an error handler that the only thing it does is throw an exception
  785. # [11:55] <fantasai> Hsivonen: that gives you a strict parser
  786. # [11:55] <DanC_lap> (bummer... the pointer to encoding tests from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007JanMar/0054.html has gone 404...)
  787. # [11:55] <pimpbot> Title: Re: brainstorming: test cases, issues, goals, etc. from James Graham on 2007-03-14 (public-html@w3.org from January to March 2007) (at lists.w3.org)
  788. # [11:55] <timbl> q?
  789. # [11:55] * Zakim sees noah on the speaker queue
  790. # [11:55] <fantasai> Hsivonen: I think the discusison about stability and referencing, might point out a problem in the Process.
  791. # [11:55] <fantasai> Hsivonen: It's not only HTMl5 hat has this problem.
  792. # [11:55] <gsnedders> s/HTMl/HTML/
  793. # [11:56] <DanC_lap> CURIEs
  794. # [11:56] * Quits: timbl (timbl@81.253.1.232) (Connection reset by peer)
  795. # [11:56] <timeless> s/hat/that/
  796. # [11:56] <karl> http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/10/normative-references-conformance
  797. # [11:56] <pimpbot> Title: Normative References to Moving Targets are Dangerous - W3C Q Weblog (at www.w3.org)
  798. # [11:56] <fantasai> Hsivonen: E.g. RDFA copy-pasted CURIES
  799. # [11:56] <dbaron> s/RDFA/RDFa/
  800. # [11:56] <fantasai> Hsivonen: SO there's an instance of this problem in a case where teh specs are much more closer to each other.
  801. # [11:56] <dbaron> s/CURIES/CURIEs/
  802. # [11:56] <timeless> s/teh/the/
  803. # [11:56] * Quits: marcos (marcos@81.253.13.196) (Connection reset by peer)
  804. # [11:56] <gsnedders> s/SO/So/
  805. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> q?
  806. # [11:56] * Zakim sees noah on the speaker queue
  807. # [11:56] * Joins: timbl (timbl@81.253.1.232)
  808. # [11:56] <fantasai> Hsivonen: Then SVG 1.2 Tiny can't reference CSS.21 and instead are referencing CSS2.0 even though every implementor knows nobody should be looking at CSS2.0 and should look at CSS2.1 instead
  809. # [11:56] <timeless> s/.21/2.1/
  810. # [11:56] * Joins: marcos (marcos@81.253.13.196)
  811. # [11:56] <fantasai> Hsivonen: Does it help anyone for the process to force these things?
  812. # [11:57] <smedero> DanC_lap: I think you're looking for this: http://html5lib.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/testdata/encoding/
  813. # [11:57] <pimpbot> Title: Revision 1229: /trunk/testdata/encoding (at html5lib.googlecode.com)
  814. # [11:57] <fantasai> Hsivonen: In HTML5, if it's going to change in HTML5, we want webapps to match that.
  815. # [11:57] <ht> q+ to point out that there are two solutions to Henri's point within the process
  816. # [11:57] * Zakim sees noah, ht on the speaker queue
  817. # [11:57] * Joins: seungyun (syl@81.253.6.64)
  818. # [11:57] <fantasai> Hsivonen: The point is for the two to match, so you use the same codepath
  819. # [11:58] * gsnedders thinks fantasai is being bossy
  820. # [11:58] <shepazu> hsivonen, the parts of the CSS spec SVG references hasn't changed between 2.0 and 2.1
  821. # [11:58] <smedero> DanC_lap: (well and then the scripts that deal with that... which have moved here: http://html5lib.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/python/tests/)
  822. # [11:58] <pimpbot> Title: Revision 1229: /trunk/python/tests (at html5lib.googlecode.com)
  823. # [11:58] <fantasai> Hsivonen: Even if webapps goes to REC, if the HTML5 encoding detection changes then webapps wants to match that.
  824. # [11:58] <karl> s/DanC_lap:/DanC_lap,/
  825. # [11:58] <timeless> /ignore #tpchat join
  826. # [11:58] <DanC_lap> (smedero, I only see 4 tests there. is that how many should be there?)
  827. # [11:58] <fantasai> Hsivonen: If we're working around a problem in the process that other WGs are facing to and the solutions aren't really helping with implementing the specs, perhaps instead of working around the problem we should solve the probolem
  828. # [11:59] <timeless> s/probolem/problem/
  829. # [11:59] <fantasai> Tim: The process is a tool, it's ours to use. The fact that there's a two-step difference in level between something that you can reference and something in your own lelvel is unusual in the standards world and
  830. # [11:59] <fantasai> tim: ISO and IETF you could only reference a standard
  831. # [11:59] <timeless> s/lelvel/level/
  832. # [11:59] <fantasai> Tim: Or mabye something at the same level
  833. # [11:59] <karl> That it is not the W3C Process which gives this requirement
  834. # [11:59] <fantasai> Tim: Being able to reference something less mature is regarded as a bug.
  835. # [11:59] <timeless> s/mabye/maybe/
  836. # [11:59] <karl> This is the transition document
  837. # [11:59] <dbaron> q+
  838. # [11:59] * Zakim sees noah, ht, dbaron on the speaker queue
  839. # [11:59] <fantasai> Tim: There's a good reason. If you write code fora tehcnology and it meets the standard
  840. # [11:59] <MikeSmith> q?
  841. # [11:59] * Zakim sees noah, ht, dbaron on the speaker queue
  842. # [12:00] <timeless> s/fora tehcnology/for a technology/
  843. # [12:00] <fantasai> Tim: And then the less mature spec is changed, then your software doesn't match the spec any more and stuff breaks.
  844. # [12:00] <karl> Evidence that dependencies with other groups met (or not)
  845. # [12:00] <karl> # Does this specification have any normative references to W3C specifications that are not yet Proposed Recommendations? Note: In general, documents do not advance to Recommendation with normative references to W3C specifications that are not yet Recommendations.
  846. # [12:00] <karl> # Is there evidence that additional dependencies related to implementation have been satisfied?
  847. # [12:00] <karl> -- http://www.w3.org/2005/08/online_xslt/xslt?xmlfile=http://www.w3.org/2005/08/01-transitions.html&xslfile=http://www.w3.org/2005/08/transitions.xsl&docstatus=pr-tr
  848. # [12:00] <pimpbot> Title: How to Organize a Recommendation Track Transition (at www.w3.org)
  849. # [12:00] <smedero> DanC_lap: comparing against the 1.0 branch, yes.
  850. # [12:00] <fantasai> Tim: We could change the process, but that will only help us create broken software.
  851. # [12:00] <karl> q+
  852. # [12:00] * Zakim sees noah, ht, dbaron, karl on the speaker queue
  853. # [12:00] <fantasai> Tim: WIth something like this, where we have another solution -- which is to pull out this bit of technology and make it separate spec
  854. # [12:01] <fantasai> Tim: It's got the ability to be stabilized well in advance, then you can have an appropriate ordering between your specs
  855. # [12:01] <fantasai> Tim: And it'll all work. You don't need a cycle.
  856. # [12:01] <karl> q+ to mention that it is not part of W3C process
  857. # [12:01] * Zakim sees noah, ht, dbaron, karl on the speaker queue
  858. # [12:01] <fantasai> Tim: It's when you have a cycle that you need to have this slack between the two specs.
  859. # [12:01] <fantasai> Noah: Picking up in part on what TIm said.
  860. # [12:01] <MikeSmith> ack noah
  861. # [12:01] <Zakim> noah, you wanted to wonder if we're just disagreeing on what should be normative
  862. # [12:01] <DanC_lap> (interesting point, karl; ht, I don't find any constraints on dependencies in the process document. As I recall from discussions with Ian, we rely on reviewers to complain about pointers to stuff that's not sufficiently mature.)
  863. # [12:01] <fantasai> Tim: about language tutorials
  864. # [12:01] * Zakim sees ht, dbaron, karl on the speaker queue
  865. # [12:01] <fantasai> Noah: I wanted to add up an the parts that everyboyd agreed on and not
  866. # [12:01] <Al> q+ to say that Henri's point about managing dependencies of concurrently progressing modules shows that Henry's emphasis on declarative spec introduces problems.
  867. # [12:01] * Zakim sees ht, dbaron, karl, Al on the speaker queue
  868. # [12:01] <timeless> s/everyboyd/everybody/
  869. # [12:02] <fantasai> Noah: part I heard agreement on is that the spec should go on the say you're writing it. Maybe you shoudl retitle it, but otherwise no issue
  870. # [12:02] <timeless> s/shoudl/should/
  871. # [12:02] <fantasai> Noah: I think I heard everbyody agree that there should be docuemtns that help novices learn to write HTML
  872. # [12:02] <timeless> s/everbyody/everybody/
  873. # [12:02] <pimpbot> planet: Chris Wilson on Internet Explorer 8 and the W3C HTML Working Group <http://standardssuck.org/chris>
  874. # [12:02] <fantasai> Noah: I think I heard agreement htat it should discourage improperly nested tags
  875. # [12:02] <timeless> s/docuemtns/documents/
  876. # [12:02] <Al> .. if there could be reference to a function call, we could freeze the interface to that function call and there is not breakage if the body of the function is definitized later
  877. # [12:02] <timeless> s/htat/that/
  878. # [12:02] <fantasai> Noah: THe part I didn't hear agreement on is .. defining a clean language with no errors
  879. # [12:03] <fantasai> Hixie: That already exists. I sent a link to it in IRC.
  880. # [12:03] <ht> DanC, the (in)famous '2 steps back' rule comes from the XML Plenary in San Jose in 1998 (?). Consistent with what you said, it's a guideline -- other things being equal, the presumption is that 2 or less is OK, more than that is not, but it's only a presumption
  881. # [12:03] <fantasai> Noah: Question is should it be a normative document
  882. # [12:03] <fantasai> Hixie: It is.l It's ection 8.?
  883. # [12:03] * timbl is sort of surprised to find himself in the John Klensin role and thinks he should maybe grow a beard
  884. # [12:03] <fantasai> s/ection/section/
  885. # [12:03] <fantasai> Noah: It seems to me there's a question whether you advertise to the community conforming HTML5 that is a big deal
  886. # [12:03] <fantasai> Noah: The way XML is a big deal
  887. # [12:03] <Hixie> q+
  888. # [12:03] * Zakim sees ht, dbaron, karl, Al, Hixie on the speaker queue
  889. # [12:03] * karl is tempted to take a photo of tim and add a beard
  890. # [12:04] <fantasai> Noah: If you decide you don't want to do that the world becomes very simple. You're just writing non-normative guides. Can write alots of them. They may not be very consistent.
  891. # [12:04] <gsnedders> s/alots/lots/
  892. # [12:04] <fantasai> Noah: If you do write this ection then the question is how can you write such that it is understandable for mere mortals
  893. # [12:04] <Al> ht, what Chaals learned on researching this recently is that any down-level reference will bring close scrutiny and demand for "three good reasons". I don't presently think a two-level presumption is safe.
  894. # [12:04] <fantasai> Noah: My personal preference is that you do create such a spec. I don't ahve a reasona, just abstract intuithion
  895. # [12:04] <timeless> s/ahve/have/
  896. # [12:05] <gsnedders> s/reasona/reason/
  897. # [12:05] <gsnedders> q?
  898. # [12:05] * Zakim sees ht, dbaron, karl, Al, Hixie on the speaker queue
  899. # [12:05] <fantasai> Noah: I'm curious if people ...
  900. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> q?
  901. # [12:05] * Zakim sees ht, dbaron, karl, Al, Hixie on the speaker queue
  902. # [12:05] <timeless> s/intuithion/intuition/
  903. # [12:05] * Joins: plh (plh@128.30.52.28)
  904. # [12:05] <fantasai> Noah: The optional things are,
  905. # [12:05] <fantasai> Noah: Do you write one or more non-normative informative guides to help authors write stuff.
  906. # [12:05] <fantasai> Noah: I heard that in general they should encourage the creation of clean content
  907. # [12:06] <fantasai> Noah: The more controversial option is should you write a normative and precise document that specifies only the clean language and its semantics.
  908. # [12:06] * timbl notes as an aside that http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/syntax.html#writing-html-documents could do with a specific title so it can be fund in tabs
  909. # [12:06] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at www.whatwg.org)
  910. # [12:06] <Hixie> Philip: ^ see timbl's comment
  911. # [12:06] <fantasai> Noah: I'm not using the term authoring guide, because it's not how I think of it, but it seems that's what you're thinking of
  912. # [12:06] <fantasai> Mike: One issue is the authoring language spec for HTML5
  913. # [12:06] <Hixie> Philip: if you could set that up i can regen the spec straight away
  914. # [12:07] <Philip> Hixie, what would the page title be?
  915. # [12:07] <fantasai> Mike: THe other issue is the concern Dan brought up , of other parts of the spec that dont' relate to authoring conformance but refer to browser impelemntation details
  916. # [12:07] * Quits: JonathanJ (hollobit@81.253.46.45) (Ping timeout)
  917. # [12:07] <Hixie> Philip: first h2, i guess
  918. # [12:07] <fantasai> Mike: for which there is rationale to have separate specs
  919. # [12:07] <anne> Philip, section title of 8.1 &mdash; HTML5
  920. # [12:07] <gsnedders> s/THe/The/
  921. # [12:07] <fantasai> Mike: we do wnat to talk about both thos ethings
  922. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> q?
  923. # [12:07] * Zakim sees ht, dbaron, karl, Al, Hixie on the speaker queue
  924. # [12:07] <fantasai> Mike: I want to go through the queue.
  925. # [12:07] <dbaron> q-
  926. # [12:07] * Zakim sees ht, karl, Al, Hixie on the speaker queue
  927. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> ack ht
  928. # [12:07] <karl> s/Philip:/Philip,/
  929. # [12:07] <Zakim> ht, you wanted to point out that there are two solutions to Henri's point within the process
  930. # [12:07] <fantasai> Henry passes
  931. # [12:07] * Zakim sees karl, Al, Hixie on the speaker queue
  932. # [12:07] <Philip> Hixie, some pages don't start on an <h2>, but I suppose I could just use the first heading
  933. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> ack karl
  934. # [12:07] <Zakim> karl, you wanted to mention that it is not part of W3C process
  935. # [12:07] * Zakim sees Al, Hixie on the speaker queue
  936. # [12:07] <ht> q-
  937. # [12:07] * Zakim sees Al, Hixie on the speaker queue
  938. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> q?
  939. # [12:07] * Zakim sees Al, Hixie on the speaker queue
  940. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> ack Al
  941. # [12:07] <Zakim> Al, you wanted to say that Henri's point about managing dependencies of concurrently progressing modules shows that Henry's emphasis on declarative spec introduces problems.
  942. # [12:08] <Philip> Hixie, (though it'll be a bit misleading on pages that have multiple significant sections)
  943. # [12:08] * Zakim sees Hixie on the speaker queue
  944. # [12:08] <fantasai> Karl: The discussion about modules was not about process docume t(??)
  945. # [12:08] <karl> s/modules/normative references/
  946. # [12:08] <zcorpan> Philip: "8 The HTML syntax - HTML 5"
  947. # [12:08] <fantasai> Al: I'd like to +1 what Tim was saying earlier, that there's the contract in volves two levels of strictness
  948. # [12:08] <fantasai> Al: THe contract includes the ideas that the consumer has the support of a browser which processes strigns of several varieties
  949. # [12:08] <Lachy> s/in volves/involves/
  950. # [12:08] <Hixie> Philip: yeah, but it'll be better than nothing
  951. # [12:09] <fantasai> Al: While the author gets instrcuted in how to be strict in what they emit
  952. # [12:09] <gsnedders> Philip: Why can't we just have one major section per doc?
  953. # [12:09] <fantasai> Al: This is what makes the Web interoperate today. Is that we have both statements.
  954. # [12:09] <fantasai> Al: This is what the HTML5 spec tends to do. I want to say that's valueable.
  955. # [12:09] <karl> s/process docume t(??)/process document requirements, but transition document/
  956. # [12:09] <anne> Philip, alternatively you give us an API so we can make up a title per page and such :)
  957. # [12:09] <ht> q+ to suggest we look at the URI issue
  958. # [12:09] * Zakim sees Hixie, ht on the speaker queue
  959. # [12:09] * Joins: timbl_ (timbl@81.253.8.143)
  960. # [12:09] * Quits: timbl (timbl@81.253.1.232) (Ping timeout)
  961. # [12:09] <MikeSmith> ack Hixie
  962. # [12:09] * Zakim sees ht on the speaker queue
  963. # [12:09] <fantasai> Al: That's how you make large systems interoperate. You have some space between these two.
  964. # [12:09] <fantasai> Hixie: I'd like to encourage people that want a document that defines a "clean language" to read section 8.?.?
  965. # [12:10] <fantasai> Hixie: and see if that's what they mean.
  966. # [12:10] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#semantics
  967. # [12:10] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at www.w3.org)
  968. # [12:10] <fantasai> Hixie: I'm not sure that document is useful to authors. Because it wouldnt' be something they'd unerstand.
  969. # [12:10] <fantasai> Hixie: And that's where a non-normative authoring guide comes in.
  970. # [12:10] <gsnedders> s/8.?.?/8.1/
  971. # [12:10] * Quits: mjs (mjs@69.181.43.20) (Connection reset by peer)
  972. # [12:10] <Lachy> q?
  973. # [12:10] * Zakim sees ht on the speaker queue
  974. # [12:10] <fantasai> Hixie: I don't think that splitting sctions out of the spe cto keep them more stable will work.
  975. # [12:10] <Lachy> q+
  976. # [12:10] * Zakim sees ht, Lachy on the speaker queue
  977. # [12:10] <gsnedders> s/spe cto/spec to/
  978. # [12:10] * Joins: mjs (mjs@69.181.43.20)
  979. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#the-a-element
  980. # [12:11] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at www.w3.org)
  981. # [12:11] <noah> What I have in mind is a document would be a document that would include the syntax, as well as the normative definitions of what a table is, a paragraph, etc. Ideally, I would then NOT repeat those semantics in the "larger" user agent spec.; I would have the user agent spec refer to the language spec for that.
  982. # [12:11] <fantasai> Hixie: The problem isn't aht HTML5 isn't stable,the problem is that the part that changes is the part that we want to split out
  983. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> q?
  984. # [12:11] * Zakim sees ht, Lachy on the speaker queue
  985. # [12:11] <fantasai> Hixie: I don't have a solution to that.
  986. # [12:11] <fantasai> Mike: I'd like to talk about specifics.
  987. # [12:11] * Joins: heycam (cam@124.168.124.252)
  988. # [12:11] <fantasai> Mike: We seem to have consensus that we should have an authoring spec.
  989. # [12:12] <fantasai> Mike: Several parts of the spec talk about authoring conformance criteria
  990. # [12:12] <marcos> +q
  991. # [12:12] * Zakim sees ht, Lachy, marcos on the speaker queue
  992. # [12:12] <DanC_lap> "8.1 Writing HTML documents"
  993. # [12:12] <fantasai> Mike: There's 8.1
  994. # [12:12] <fantasai> Mike: But there are also parts on semantics
  995. # [12:12] <hsivonen> q+
  996. # [12:12] * Zakim sees ht, Lachy, marcos, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  997. # [12:12] <MikeSmith> ack ht
  998. # [12:12] <Zakim> ht, you wanted to suggest we look at the URI issue
  999. # [12:12] * Zakim sees Lachy, marcos, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1000. # [12:12] <fantasai> Mike: We shoudl go to that part of the spec and see if it has what we think needs to be there
  1001. # [12:12] <fantasai> Henry: I'd like to back you up and move on to another issue.. modularization
  1002. # [12:13] <fantasai> Henry: IA different spin on it. It really is a matter of "spheres of influence"
  1003. # [12:13] <Hixie> q+
  1004. # [12:13] * Zakim sees Lachy, marcos, hsivonen, Hixie on the speaker queue
  1005. # [12:13] <fantasai> Henry: That's the URI/URL parsing section
  1006. # [12:13] <fantasai> Henry: It did feel to the TAG at least at first blush that this looked like
  1007. # [12:13] <fantasai> Henry: A misjudgement wrt serving the web community
  1008. # [12:13] <fantasai> Henry: That people need to have a consistent picture of identifiers for web resources
  1009. # [12:13] <fantasai> Henry: It's not up to the HTMLWG to decide what that string looks like
  1010. # [12:14] <MikeSmith> q?
  1011. # [12:14] * Zakim sees Lachy, marcos, hsivonen, Hixie on the speaker queue
  1012. # [12:14] <fantasai> Henry: At the very least the IETF has a stake in this. They own the relevant specs
  1013. # [12:14] * Joins: JonathanJ (hollobit@81.253.46.45)
  1014. # [12:14] <fantasai> Henry: I'd like to see if there's a willingness to look at refactoring that discussion at least.
  1015. # [12:14] <MikeSmith> ack Lachy
  1016. # [12:14] * Zakim sees marcos, hsivonen, Hixie on the speaker queue
  1017. # [12:14] <fantasai> Lachlan: Wrt splitting the spec, I'm a bit curious about who exactly we're targetting this other spec for.
  1018. # [12:14] <MikeSmith> q+ Larry
  1019. # [12:14] * Zakim sees marcos, hsivonen, Hixie, Larry on the speaker queue
  1020. # [12:15] <fantasai> Lachlan: there are a whole range of .. that use HTML5.
  1021. # [12:15] <fantasai> Lachlan: Each of those need different overlapping sections of the spec.
  1022. # [12:15] <anne> XMLHttpRequest currently refers to the HTML5 URL concept...
  1023. # [12:15] <Lachy> Authors, markup generators, authoring tools, validators, generic consumer tools, browsers.
  1024. # [12:15] <Lachy> Each needs a different set of overlapping sections of the spec.
  1025. # [12:15] <Lachy> Authors: semantics, conforming syntax
  1026. # [12:15] <Lachy> authoring tools: semantics, conforming syntax, parsing, sometimes rendering
  1027. # [12:15] <Lachy> validators: parsing
  1028. # [12:15] <Lachy> consumer tools: parsing, DOM/tree
  1029. # [12:15] <Lachy> search engines: semantics, parsing
  1030. # [12:15] <Lachy> browsers: semantics, parsing, rendering
  1031. # [12:16] <fantasai> Lachlan summarizes his notes above
  1032. # [12:16] <hsivonen> validators need a lot more than parsing
  1033. # [12:16] * karl sees a nice list of Class of Products
  1034. # [12:16] * gsnedders will stop wondering around taking photos now
  1035. # [12:16] <fantasai> Lachlan: THe problem is who exactly are we trying to target with this split spec, given that there are so many overlapping needs?
  1036. # [12:16] <DanC_lap> q+ to note that after review of the URL stuff, I found it acceptable, but I haven't "sold" others. the IETF has right of review, and I think we have an unstable/paper consensus
  1037. # [12:16] * Zakim sees marcos, hsivonen, Hixie, Larry, DanC_lap on the speaker queue
  1038. # [12:16] <marcos> -q
  1039. # [12:16] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Hixie, Larry, DanC_lap on the speaker queue
  1040. # [12:16] <gsnedders> q?
  1041. # [12:16] * karl does the happy QA dance
  1042. # [12:16] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Hixie, Larry, DanC_lap on the speaker queue
  1043. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> q?
  1044. # [12:16] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Hixie, Larry, DanC_lap on the speaker queue
  1045. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> ack hsivonen
  1046. # [12:16] * Zakim sees Hixie, Larry, DanC_lap on the speaker queue
  1047. # [12:16] <fantasai> Marcos: Lachlan said my point
  1048. # [12:16] <cshelly> @MikeSmith: are the "semantics sections" sections 3 and 4?
  1049. # [12:16] <pimpbot> cshelly: Huh?
  1050. # [12:17] <fantasai> Hsivonen: On URIs what the spec does it takes the IRI RFC and defines the delta of what you need on top of the RFC.
  1051. # [12:17] <fantasai> ?: It states what rules you need to change in the RFC to parse
  1052. # [12:17] <karl> http://www.w3.org/TR/qaframe-spec/#implement-principle
  1053. # [12:17] <pimpbot> Title: QA Framework: Specification Guidelines (at www.w3.org)
  1054. # [12:17] <fantasai> Henry: Why do you need a delta at all?
  1055. # [12:17] <gsnedders> s/?/JR:/
  1056. # [12:17] <fantasai> Hsivonen: Suppose I'm writing a browser. THere's existing content out there that was written before the IRI spec
  1057. # [12:17] * anne thinks Henry should know that, doing LEIRI and all...
  1058. # [12:17] <fantasai> Hsivonen: If you have a form and you input characters, and the you submit that form using GET.
  1059. # [12:17] <Julian_Reschke> q+
  1060. # [12:17] * Zakim sees Hixie, Larry, DanC_lap, Julian_Reschke on the speaker queue
  1061. # [12:17] <MikeSmith> cshelly, basically just section 3
  1062. # [12:18] <Philip> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/syntax.html
  1063. # [12:18] <pimpbot> Title: 8 The HTML syntax HTML 5 (at www.whatwg.org)
  1064. # [12:18] <MikeSmith> cshelly, plus the first part of section 8
  1065. # [12:18] * dbaron thinks we don't need every last word in the minutes
  1066. # [12:18] <fantasai> Hsivonen: You encode the unicode characters in the form fields to bytes using the character encoding that the document itself was labelled as when it was parsed.
  1067. # [12:18] <Philip> MikeSmith, you still need to fix pimpbot entity handling :-p
  1068. # [12:18] <Philip> s//'s/
  1069. # [12:18] <fantasai> Hsovnen: And this is requried for backwards comptibility, otherwise servers will receive form submission that they didn't expect and they will break.
  1070. # [12:18] <Hixie> woohoo, nice work Philip
  1071. # [12:18] <fantasai> Hsivonen: there's another eq that flows from this one. If you have on an html page a URI that has a query string
  1072. # [12:18] <karl> http://www.w3.org/TR/spec-variability/#spec-cat-cop
  1073. # [12:18] <Hixie> timbl_, multipage spec version is updated to have better <title>s now
  1074. # [12:18] <fantasai> Hsovnen: You are linking to a orm submission sucha s the one I describe
  1075. # [12:18] <pimpbot> Title: Variability in Specifications (at www.w3.org)
  1076. # [12:19] * Quits: zcorpan (zcorpan@213.236.208.22) (Quit: zcorpan)
  1077. # [12:19] <karl> s/Hsovnen:/hsivonen/
  1078. # [12:19] <MikeSmith> Philip, patches welcome
  1079. # [12:19] <timbl_> If the form submission has non-ascii then you can't encodeit a la IRI ncodeing.
  1080. # [12:19] <karl> s/hsivonen/hsivonen:/
  1081. # [12:20] <fantasai> Hsivonen: The kind of string ath's in href, if it has non-ascii in it to get an ascii-only URI you need to use the ncoding of the document to encode those characters into bytes and then do the % encoding on those bytes and then give the result to the HTTP library
  1082. # [12:20] <timbl_> You have to use the encoding which the document itself was parsed with.
  1083. # [12:20] <anne> timbl_, it would be URI percent encoded afaict
  1084. # [12:20] <fantasai> Hsivonen: Sites are dpeending on this behavior. So browsers are.
  1085. # [12:20] <MikeSmith> q?
  1086. # [12:20] * Zakim sees Hixie, Larry, DanC_lap, Julian_Reschke on the speaker queue
  1087. # [12:20] <gsnedders> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/infrastructure.html#resolve-a-url
  1088. # [12:20] <pimpbot> Title: 2 Common infrastructure HTML 5 (at www.whatwg.org)
  1089. # [12:20] <fantasai> ?: We all know that and we are in total agreement that the spec needs to do that.
  1090. # [12:20] <gsnedders> That defines what hsivonen is summarizing
  1091. # [12:20] <fantasai> HsivoneN: So we've established that browsers need to do that.
  1092. # [12:20] <gsnedders> s/?/JR:/
  1093. # [12:20] <fantasai> ... I'm writing something else. The image .. of validator.nu
  1094. # [12:20] * Quits: JonathanJ (hollobit@81.253.46.45) (Ping timeout)
  1095. # [12:20] <fantasai> ... It's not a browser, but it deals with content browser deal with
  1096. # [12:21] <fantasai> ... I can't impelemtn the IRI and then find out later that it won't work
  1097. # [12:21] <noah> q?
  1098. # [12:21] * Zakim sees Hixie, Larry, DanC_lap, Julian_Reschke on the speaker queue
  1099. # [12:21] <fantasai> ... The RFC doesn't give me a spec for that
  1100. # [12:21] <gsnedders> s/impelemtn/implement/
  1101. # [12:21] * Quits: timbl_ (timbl@81.253.8.143) (Connection reset by peer)
  1102. # [12:21] <fantasai> ... The .. library that impelemtns 6 different profiles for IRIs,b ut doesn't impelment the most common profile -- href links in HTML
  1103. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> ?
  1104. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> q?
  1105. # [12:21] * Zakim sees Hixie, Larry, DanC_lap, Julian_Reschke on the speaker queue
  1106. # [12:21] <fantasai> ... ifIETF isn't providing then, then I want to have a spec that I can write to and not have to reverse-engineer anything.
  1107. # [12:21] <gsnedders> s/b ut/but/
  1108. # [12:21] * Joins: timbl (timbl@81.253.8.143)
  1109. # [12:21] <timeless> s/impelment/implement/
  1110. # [12:21] <gsnedders> s/ifIETF/if IETF/
  1111. # [12:21] <fantasai> ... I want to use the reverse-engineering that Hixie did
  1112. # [12:22] <fantasai> ... If that's not in the IETF, then it should be somewhere. HTMl5
  1113. # [12:22] * Quits: raphael (raphael.tr@81.253.36.165) (Ping timeout)
  1114. # [12:22] <fantasai> Mike: ... whether we should do that in a normative W3C REC
  1115. # [12:22] <noah> q+ to ask whether the issue is the use of the term URI or IRI for something that doesn't conform to the RFCs
  1116. # [12:22] * Zakim sees Hixie, Larry, DanC_lap, Julian_Reschke, noah on the speaker queue
  1117. # [12:22] <fantasai> Mike: we need to come back to what specifically we need to get to
  1118. # [12:22] <Julian_Reschke> all the stuff that Henri said is correct, except the conclusion that it needs to be done the was it is done right now
  1119. # [12:22] <ht> Henri, Stipulate that the RFC is broken, why not fix the RFC, instead of starting a turf war?
  1120. # [12:23] <fantasai> TV: The meta issue is that there'as an RFC for IRIs and browsers violate that IRI. Meta-issue is do we need to codify that violation fo the IRI spec?
  1121. # [12:23] * Joins: JonathanJ (hollobit@81.253.46.45)
  1122. # [12:23] <fantasai> Mike: So mabye we nee dot clarify that this is a big public issue that is open
  1123. # [12:23] <hsivonen> ht, the IETF wasn't cooperative when doing that was suggested
  1124. # [12:23] * DanC_lap q?
  1125. # [12:23] * Zakim sees Hixie, Larry, DanC_lap, Julian_Reschke, noah on the speaker queue
  1126. # [12:23] <fantasai> TV: The meta-issue here isn't aobut bits and bytes, but about whether this WG should be codifying existing violations of existing RFCs.
  1127. # [12:23] <fantasai> Tim: ... go into another RFC.
  1128. # [12:23] <hsivonen> q+
  1129. # [12:23] * Zakim sees Hixie, Larry, DanC_lap, Julian_Reschke, noah, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1130. # [12:23] <ht> Henri, did you raise it through the W3C-IETF liaison call?
  1131. # [12:23] <fantasai> ?: modularization, goes to IETF
  1132. # [12:24] <MikeSmith> ack Larry
  1133. # [12:24] * Zakim sees Hixie, DanC_lap, Julian_Reschke, noah, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1134. # [12:24] <DanC_lap> s/?:/MM:/
  1135. # [12:24] * Quits: timbl (timbl@81.253.8.143) (Connection reset by peer)
  1136. # [12:24] <fantasai> Larry: It's not clear to me that .. properly with in the domain of HTML to define how HTML define form submission
  1137. # [12:24] <fantasai> Larry: IETF doesn't say how HTML does form submission
  1138. # [12:24] <ht> s/../forms submission/
  1139. # [12:24] <fantasai> Larry: ... URI sepcification...
  1140. # [12:24] <DanC_lap> s/IETF doesn't/the IRI spec doesn't/
  1141. # [12:25] <fantasai> Lary: It may be that if you see a URI in a form and you have query string that you take that URI and then you transform that URI and then you do the submit on that URI
  1142. # [12:25] <MikeSmith> q?
  1143. # [12:25] * Zakim sees Hixie, DanC_lap, Julian_Reschke, noah, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1144. # [12:25] * Joins: timbl (timbl@81.253.8.143)
  1145. # [12:25] <fantasai> Larry: It's not changeing the IRI spec. It's doing some weird processing before.
  1146. # [12:25] * Quits: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)