/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2008-10-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Oct 23 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  17. # [03:58] <pimpbot> planet: W3CTP: The Technical Plenary Day <http://annevankesteren.nl/2008/10/w3ctp-plenary-day>
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  20. # [04:58] <pimpbot> planet: Chris on Internet Explorer 8 and the W3C HTML Working Group <http://standardssuck.org/chris>
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  27. # [08:20] <pimpbot> hsivonen: Sent 1 day, 18 hours, and 31 minutes ago: <MikeSmith> Henri, please ping me when you get back online
  28. # [08:21] <hsivonen> hmm. Mike isn't here for pinging
  29. # [08:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: seen Mike?
  30. # [08:24] <Hixie> no
  31. # [08:24] <Hixie> but then i'm in my bed
  32. # [08:24] <Hixie> so i'd have been surprised if i had
  33. # [08:24] <Hixie> i'm about to shower and come down
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  36. # [08:35] * anne is tired
  37. # [08:35] * anne might be slightly late
  38. # [08:35] * anne hasn't slept much at all
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  41. # [08:39] * karl sees nobody in html wg room
  42. # [08:39] <karl> we are just two so far
  43. # [08:40] <karl> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Oct/0074.html
  44. # [08:40] <pimpbot> Title: Final agenda for Oct. 23-24 face-to-face meeting from Michael(tm) Smith on 2008-10-22 (public-html@w3.org from October 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  45. # [08:41] <karl> agenda says starting at 9am
  46. # [08:43] <anne> I suppose I should try to be there on time
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  60. # [09:16] * gsnedders is now not sitting right next to a table leg, and feels better
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  62. # [09:16] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-html-wg-irc
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  64. # [09:17] * DanC_lap waves to hsivonen
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  67. # [09:18] <DanC_lap> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Oct/0074.html
  68. # [09:18] <pimpbot> Title: Final agenda for Oct. 23-24 face-to-face meeting from Michael(tm) Smith on 2008-10-22 (public-html@w3.org from October 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  69. # [09:19] * DanC_lap volunteers to scribe 'till 11am
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  72. # [09:20] * DanC_lap volunteers to scribe 'till 11am
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  87. # [09:23] <DanC_lap> Present: Dean Jackson, Ian Hickson, Sean Medero, gsnedders, Karl Dubost, Lachlan Hunt ...
  88. # [09:23] * gsnedders notes we have an equal number of obs and members
  89. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> scribenick: DanC_lap
  90. # [09:24] <DanC_lap> Cynthia, Murray, Anne, Julian, Dan, Adrian, Chris W, Mike Smith
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  92. # [09:24] <DanC_lap> Cooper, Allen, Janina [sp?], Dave Baron, [help?], kai hendry [sp?], PLH
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  94. # [09:25] <DanC_lap> ArtB, Noah M., [help?], [help?], ylafon
  95. # [09:25] * Joins: plh (plh@128.30.52.28)
  96. # [09:25] <DanC_lap> ... OT
  97. # [09:25] <smedero> s/Sean Medero/Shawn Medero/
  98. # [09:25] <DanC_lap> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Oct/0074.html
  99. # [09:25] <pimpbot> Title: Final agenda for Oct. 23-24 face-to-face meeting from Michael(tm) Smith on 2008-10-22 (public-html@w3.org from October 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  100. # [09:25] <gsnedders> s/gsnedders/Geoffrey Sneddon/
  101. # [09:25] * DanC_lap sorry Shawn. thanks.
  102. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Oct/0074.html
  103. # [09:25] <pimpbot> Title: Final agenda for Oct. 23-24 face-to-face meeting from Michael(tm) Smith on 2008-10-22 (public-html@w3.org from October 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  104. # [09:29] * MichaelC requests to do the implicit roles one in tomorrow's slot
  105. # [09:29] * DanC_lap caches... implicit accesibility ... authoring guide
  106. # [09:29] <DanC_lap> MikeSmith reviews agenda
  107. # [09:29] * Quits: plh (plh@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  108. # [09:30] <DanC_lap> Cynthia: unconference topic: implicit accessibility roles/topics
  109. # [09:30] <DanC_lap> Lachlan: authring guide
  110. # [09:32] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@81.253.48.80)
  111. # [09:34] <DanC_lap> MikeSmith: exec4 is reserved for unconference sessions this PM
  112. # [09:35] <DanC_lap> +hsivonen
  113. # [09:35] * Zakim wonders where hsivonen is
  114. # [09:36] * dbaron RRSAgent, pointer?
  115. # [09:36] * RRSAgent See http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-html-wg-irc#T07-29-33
  116. # [09:36] <mjs> ooh, implicit accessibility rules
  117. # [09:36] * Joins: JonathanJ (hollobit@81.253.46.45)
  118. # [09:36] <mjs> *roles
  119. # [09:36] * dbaron RRSAgent, make logs public
  120. # [09:36] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, dbaron
  121. # [09:37] <DanC_lap> MikeSmith: re testing, I suggest we update the annotations on the spec about which parts are stable, tested, etc.
  122. # [09:38] * DanC_lap hunts for a pointer to those annotations
  123. # [09:38] <anne> they are inside the WHATWG version of the spec DanC_lap
  124. # [09:38] <anne> in the sideline
  125. # [09:39] <DanC_lap> there's some php interface to update them, yes?
  126. # [09:39] <Hixie> perl, but yes
  127. # [09:39] <Hixie> alt-double-click a section to update that section
  128. # [09:40] <Hixie> you have to log in first (link at the top right) -- if you don't have an account (most people who have sent feedback automatically have one set up) let me know
  129. # [09:40] <DanC_lap> hmm... one day I'm pretty sure I figured out how to just GET the annotations
  130. # [09:40] <anne> there's an API somewhere
  131. # [09:41] * gsnedders BenMillard just txted me to say he doesn't feel great and won't be here unless he is urgently needed
  132. # [09:42] <DanC_lap> regrets+ Ben Millard
  133. # [09:42] * Joins: arun (arun@81.253.45.248)
  134. # [09:42] <Hixie> DanC_lap: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/status.cgi?action=get-all-annotations
  135. # [09:43] <Hixie> DanC_lap: i think there's documentation but i can't find it at the moment. drop me a mail if you want me to hussle some up
  136. # [09:44] <DanC_lap> the docs were sufficient last time I needed it
  137. # [09:45] <DanC_lap> Topic: ISSUE-13 handling-http-401-status
  138. # [09:45] <gsnedders> http://www.whatwg.org/issues/#WF3-httpauth
  139. # [09:45] <pimpbot> Title: WHATWG Issues List (at www.whatwg.org)
  140. # [09:46] <DanC_lap> JR: I saw discussion on the whatwg mailing list about authentication...
  141. # [09:46] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/issues/#WF2-http-auth-login-logout
  142. # [09:46] <pimpbot> Title: WHATWG Issues List (at www.whatwg.org)
  143. # [09:46] <DanC_lap> ... web designers rarely used http authentication...
  144. # [09:46] <DanC_lap> ... if we could [missed], it might help
  145. # [09:46] * DanC_lap not now?
  146. # [09:47] <karl> q+ algiman
  147. # [09:47] * Zakim sees algiman on the speaker queue
  148. # [09:47] <DanC_lap> Hixie: I have a pile of mail on this authentication issue
  149. # [09:47] <Julian_Reschke> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/13
  150. # [09:47] <karl> q- algiman
  151. # [09:47] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  152. # [09:47] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-13 - HTML Issue Tracking Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  153. # [09:47] <karl> q+ algilman
  154. # [09:47] * Zakim sees algilman on the speaker queue
  155. # [09:47] <DanC_lap> Anne: it's probably important to handle logout at the same time
  156. # [09:47] <karl> q?
  157. # [09:47] * Zakim sees algilman on the speaker queue
  158. # [09:48] <DanC_lap> Hixie: this would make a good unconference session topic... I'd like to brainstorm... I haven't seen a good transition strategy
  159. # [09:48] <karl> ack algilman
  160. # [09:48] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  161. # [09:48] * dbaron wonders what element Hixie mentioned
  162. # [09:48] <DanC_lap> agenda+ implicit accessibility roles [Cynthia]
  163. # [09:48] * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
  164. # [09:48] <DanC_lap> agenda + authoring guide [Lachy]
  165. # [09:48] * Zakim notes agendum 2 added
  166. # [09:49] <DanC_lap> agenda + authentication brainstorm [JR/IH]
  167. # [09:49] * Zakim notes agendum 3 added
  168. # [09:49] <DanC_lap> AlG: want to bookmark some connection... [missed]
  169. # [09:49] <DanC_lap> Hixie: while we're at it, we'd like people to use digest rather than basic
  170. # [09:50] <DanC_lap> JR: yes, there's a bit of a chicken-and-egg deadlock between http protocol design and browser development
  171. # [09:50] <DanC_lap> present+ Al Gilman
  172. # [09:50] <DanC_lap> ... co-chair WAI PF WG
  173. # [09:51] * MichaelC notes Joshue has commitments in the ATAG agenda today...
  174. # [09:51] <DanC_lap> Topic: ISSUE-20 table-headers
  175. # [09:51] <DanC_lap> regrets+ Joshue
  176. # [09:52] <Laura> regrets+ Laura
  177. # [09:52] <DanC_lap> Al: issue summary: data presented in tables depends on context...
  178. # [09:53] <DanC_lap> ... in a visual scan, it's usually easy to scan to the top of the column or start of row to get context
  179. # [09:53] <DanC_lap> ... we [WAI?] have been asking that the context be machine readable...
  180. # [09:54] <DanC_lap> ... assistive technology provides a guesture for asking for this context for a cell
  181. # [09:55] <DanC_lap> Al: we've seen some proposals... we're interested in deployment in browsers of some algorithms
  182. # [09:55] <DanC_lap> MS: discussion supports the utility of the functionality in general...
  183. # [09:56] <MichaelC> q+ to suggest the use cases need to be further understood before getting into conformance rules
  184. # [09:56] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
  185. # [09:56] <DanC_lap> ... the disagreement in the discussion is about whether the @headers attribute may refer to <td> elements or is constrained to <th>
  186. # [09:56] <DanC_lap> [refinements from LH/HS... too fast for scribe... can you guys write them down?]
  187. # [09:56] <anne> (From what I gathered during a PF meeting having headers for headers would be enough.)
  188. # [09:57] <Laura> Proposals: http://tinyurl.com/6phdwg
  189. # [09:57] <pimpbot> Title: HTML/IssueTableHeaders - ESW Wiki (at tinyurl.com)
  190. # [09:57] <anne> (Example why that is needed anyway: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Aug/att-0003/offset-mess.htm )
  191. # [09:57] <pimpbot> Title: layout height attributes on body and html elements (at lists.w3.org)
  192. # [09:57] <DanC_lap> AlG: some [hallway? PF?] discussion made progress... [something about table header chaining]
  193. # [09:58] <DanC_lap> MS: I'd like to have Josh before we get too much further in
  194. # [09:58] <DanC_lap> Hixie: I'm about 86 messages behind on discussion of use cases for this design issue
  195. # [09:58] * Lachy DanC_lap, nevermind what I said. The way you minuted it is correct, though I had said MikeSmith had mentinoed th/td elements in reverse
  196. # [09:58] * DanC_lap tx
  197. # [09:58] * MichaelC went looking for Joshue in IRC, no luck
  198. # [09:58] <DanC_lap> AlG: see "function and impacts" thread
  199. # [09:59] <smedero> Al's email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Sep/0362.html
  200. # [09:59] <pimpbot> Title: function and impacts (was: scope and headers reform) from Al Gilman on 2008-09-14 (public-html@w3.org from September 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  201. # [09:59] <DanC_lap> AlG: see "function and impacts" thread for a re-cap and high-level framing
  202. # [09:59] <DanC_lap> MC: the discussion around use cases seem more productive than discussion of tags/attributes/conformance
  203. # [10:00] <MichaelC> ack me
  204. # [10:00] <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to suggest the use cases need to be further understood before getting into conformance rules
  205. # [10:00] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  206. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> q?
  207. # [10:00] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  208. # [10:00] <DanC_lap> Hixie: quite. I always consider use cases before making markup design decisions
  209. # [10:01] <MichaelC> q+ to respond use cases have evolved, so nittie-gritties need revisiting
  210. # [10:01] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
  211. # [10:01] <DanC_lap> MM: there's a lot of existing practice since 1994... why not use that?
  212. # [10:01] <MichaelC> q-
  213. # [10:01] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  214. # [10:01] <DanC_lap> Hixie: we're re-considering design of many[all?] HTML details in the light of another 10 years of experience
  215. # [10:01] * Quits: noah (noah_mende@81.253.43.6) (Ping timeout)
  216. # [10:02] <DanC_lap> AlG: to recap this week's discussion briefly, there's room for improvement... what's in the field is arduous for authors
  217. # [10:02] * Joins: noah (noah_mende@81.253.43.6)
  218. # [10:03] <DanC_lap> MS: so I hear relevant parties are more likely to be available tomorrow PM
  219. # [10:03] <DanC_lap> AlG: but I'm not sure I have Josh tomorrow
  220. # [10:04] * Joins: fantasai (fantasai@66.252.19.122)
  221. # [10:06] <DanC_lap> agenda?
  222. # [10:06] * Zakim sees 3 items remaining on the agenda:
  223. # [10:06] * Zakim 1. implicit accessibility roles [from Cynthia via DanC_lap]
  224. # [10:06] * Zakim 2. authoring guide [from Lachy via DanC_lap]
  225. # [10:06] * Zakim 3. authentication brainstorm [from JR/IH via DanC_lap]
  226. # [10:06] <DanC_lap> agenda + table headers attribute [MS]
  227. # [10:06] * Zakim notes agendum 4 added
  228. # [10:07] <DanC_lap> agenda + SVG in HTML [MS]
  229. # [10:07] * Zakim notes agendum 5 added
  230. # [10:07] * DanC_lap wonders this summary is opening discussion of the issue
  231. # [10:09] <DanC_lap> Topic: ISSUE-37 html-svg-mathml
  232. # [10:10] <DanC_lap> MS: SVG WG asked for more discussion before releasing a draft including an earlier proposal
  233. # [10:10] * MichaelC no luck tracing Josh
  234. # [10:10] * DanC_lap wishes for a pointer
  235. # [10:10] <DanC_lap> MM: and MathML?
  236. # [10:10] * smedero pointer for what DanC_lap?
  237. # [10:11] * DanC_lap for msg from SVG wg a la "slow down"
  238. # [10:11] * smedero gotcha
  239. # [10:11] <DanC_lap> MM: MathML advocates seem satisfied with current draft on MathML integration
  240. # [10:11] * Joins: marcos (marcos@81.253.13.196)
  241. # [10:12] * hsivonen s/MM/Hixie/ for the last line?
  242. # [10:12] <smedero> SVG WG's counter proposal to the HTML WG is on their wiki: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG_in_text-html
  243. # [10:12] <pimpbot> Title: SVG in text-html - SVG (at www.w3.org)
  244. # [10:12] <DanC_lap> s/MM: MathML/MS: MathML/
  245. # [10:12] * Joins: najib (chatzilla@81.253.53.126)
  246. # [10:13] <DanC_lap> Topic: ISSUE-41 Decentralized-extensibility
  247. # [10:13] <gsnedders> The current draft is http://dev.w3.org/SVG/proposals/svg-html/svg-html-proposal.html AFAIK
  248. # [10:13] <pimpbot> Title: SVG and HTML (at dev.w3.org)
  249. # [10:14] <DanC_lap> MS: the tech plenary discussion yesterday touched on this.
  250. # [10:14] <DanC_lap> AlG: is the TAG session intended to cover this?
  251. # [10:14] * Quits: Norbert (51fd2b1c@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
  252. # [10:14] * Joins: Norbert (51fd2b1c@128.30.52.43)
  253. # [10:15] <DanC_lap> MS: given the time, the TAG expressed a preference to discuss modularization. Some TAG members particularly interested in modularization aren't here
  254. # [10:16] * gsnedders anne pointer?
  255. # [10:16] <DanC_lap> s/in modularization/in distributed extensibility/
  256. # [10:17] <anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2008Oct/0031.html (Member-only)
  257. # [10:17] <anne> (in response to gsnedders)
  258. # [10:18] * karl feels that Mike will loose the screen very soon. Power of the macbook down.
  259. # [10:18] * DanC_lap notes the irony in "I'm not going to talk about 52..."
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  262. # [10:19] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233) (Ping timeout)
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  264. # [10:21] <smedero> Julian_Reschke: didn't you say you found a new info on ISSUE-54? That there was a similar problem with ASP.NET?
  265. # [10:21] <Julian_Reschke> on issue 52: do we have a separate issue for other issues for current HTML generators, such as wrt to new empty tags?
  266. # [10:22] * CWilso wonders if Mike needs to borrow a MB power adapter
  267. # [10:22] <Julian_Reschke> smedero: yes, the "xslt-compat" name is misleading; it's needed for more content producers
  268. # [10:22] <DanC_lap> no, I haven't seen a separate issue on new empty tags, though I'd want to see a more concrete problem/issue before adding it to the list
  269. # [10:22] <smedero> Julian_Reschke: have you sent an email on that anywhere? I was going to link that up to the issue... if not, nevermind.
  270. # [10:22] <Hixie> we could change it to "legacy-compat" or some such
  271. # [10:22] * Joins: jun (fujisawa_j@81.253.44.35)
  272. # [10:23] <DanC_lap> eek... "legacy-compat" sounds like a huge swap
  273. # [10:23] * Quits: Shunsuke (Shunsuke@123.176.107.234) (Quit: Tiarra 0.1+svn-20015: SIGINT received; exit)
  274. # [10:23] <Hixie> that's the idea :-)
  275. # [10:23] <Julian_Reschke> smedero: can't recall; maybe it was mentioned on IRC somewhere
  276. # [10:23] <DanC_lap> swamp, I meant
  277. # [10:23] <Hixie> we need something that sounds bad so that people don't think it's the more cool thing
  278. # [10:23] <DanC_lap> MS: tomorrow at 2pm for SVG/HTML?
  279. # [10:24] * Joins: ed (ed@81.253.56.158)
  280. # [10:24] <DanC_lap> agenda 5 = SVG in text/html 2pm Fri [Doug]
  281. # [10:24] * Zakim notes agendum 5 replaced
  282. # [10:25] <DanC_lap> agenda 5 = SVG in text/html 2pm Fri exec 7 [Doug]
  283. # [10:25] * Zakim notes agendum 5 replaced
  284. # [10:25] <DanC_lap> agenda 5 = SVG in text/html 2pm Fri rm exec 7 [Doug]
  285. # [10:25] * Zakim notes agendum 5 replaced
  286. # [10:25] <anne> Hixie, maybe just "compat"
  287. # [10:25] <DanC_lap> MS: how many ppl? 12-ish
  288. # [10:26] * Joins: Shunsuke (Shunsuke@123.176.107.234)
  289. # [10:26] <DanC_lap> "compat" with what? more specific, please
  290. # [10:26] <anne> tools that can't generate <!DOCTYPE html>
  291. # [10:26] <DanC_lap> +Joshue
  292. # [10:26] * Zakim wonders where Joshue is
  293. # [10:27] * Quits: ed (ed@81.253.56.158) (Quit: ed)
  294. # [10:27] <DanC_lap> ah. that suggest overlap with issue-4 "HTML Versioning and DOCTYPEs"
  295. # [10:27] <DanC_lap> agenda/
  296. # [10:27] <DanC_lap> agenda?
  297. # [10:27] * Zakim sees 5 items remaining on the agenda:
  298. # [10:27] * Zakim 1. implicit accessibility roles [from Cynthia via DanC_lap]
  299. # [10:27] * Zakim 2. authoring guide [from Lachy via DanC_lap]
  300. # [10:27] * Zakim 3. authentication brainstorm [from JR/IH via DanC_lap]
  301. # [10:27] * Zakim 4. table headers attribute [from MS via DanC_lap]
  302. # [10:27] * Zakim 5. SVG in text/html 2pm Fri rm exec 7 [Doug]
  303. # [10:28] <DanC_lap> agenda 4 = table headers attribute 4pm-4:45pm Thu [Joshue]
  304. # [10:28] * Zakim notes agendum 4 replaced
  305. # [10:29] * Quits: hsivonen (hsivonen@130.233.41.50) (Ping timeout)
  306. # [10:30] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  307. # [10:30] * DanC_lap welcomes volutneers to scribe the -- gee. she _is_ good!
  308. # [10:30] <fantasai> Mike: Next major issue is modularization of the spec
  309. # [10:30] <fantasai> Mike: The TAG has concerns about this
  310. # [10:31] <fantasai> Anne: Shouldn't we discuss other topics?
  311. # [10:31] <fantasai> ...
  312. # [10:31] <fantasai> Mike: About the authentication discussion
  313. # [10:31] * Joins: Joshue (Joshue@81.253.57.141)
  314. # [10:31] <fantasai> Mike asks about scheduling
  315. # [10:31] * DanC_lap wonders if fantasai is willing to scribe the tag session
  316. # [10:32] * Joins: anthony (chatzilla@203.12.172.254)
  317. # [10:32] <fantasai> Mike: So from 4:45 until ... 5:30?
  318. # [10:32] <fantasai> Mike: For the authentication discussion
  319. # [10:32] * fantasai DanC_lap depends what you mean by that
  320. # [10:32] <DanC_lap> agenda 3 = authentication brainstorm 4:45pm Thu [JR/IH]
  321. # [10:32] * Zakim notes agendum 3 replaced
  322. # [10:33] <fantasai> Mike: So just before we take a break and before we have the TAG members show up
  323. # [10:33] * MichaelC when are the other unconference sessions?
  324. # [10:33] <fantasai> Mike: Does anybody have any thoughts on modularization?
  325. # [10:33] * DanC_lap was just going to welcome volunteers to scribe the next session, and you started scribing. I wonder whether to take that as an offer to scribe the next session
  326. # [10:33] <fantasai> Mike: So the issue is .. we've had this discussion a lot ourselves
  327. # [10:33] <fantasai> Mike: I think there's general consensus to split out certain parts of the spec
  328. # [10:33] <fantasai> Mike: The issue is do we have editors that are willing to work on these separate parts. That's been the iggest blocking factor
  329. # [10:34] <fantasai> Mike: ... discussion with the TAG. That's where we're at as a WG with the issue
  330. # [10:34] <fantasai> Mike: Any other thoughts on that before we talk with TAG?
  331. # [10:34] <fantasai> ?: Do you want to take a shot at explaining that?
  332. # [10:34] <fantasai> ?: Whether there's one editor or three editors, there's still one document or multiple documents
  333. # [10:34] <DanC_lap> s/?:/MM:/
  334. # [10:35] <fantasai> Hixie explains that the overhead of editing multiple specs is high
  335. # [10:35] * Joins: ed (ed@81.253.58.64)
  336. # [10:35] * Joins: hsivonen (hsivonen@81.253.48.240)
  337. # [10:35] <fantasai> MM: That's not my experience
  338. # [10:35] <fantasai> ??: It is mine
  339. # [10:35] <Julian_Reschke> nor mime
  340. # [10:35] <DanC_lap> s/??:/marcos:/
  341. # [10:35] <DanC_lap> +marcos
  342. # [10:35] * Zakim wonders where marcos is
  343. # [10:35] <Julian_Reschke> s/mime/mine/
  344. # [10:35] <fantasai> Mike: We have had some discussions about modularization, but the resolution -- or non-resolution -- was that we haven't had people volunteer to take on other parts of the spec
  345. # [10:35] <fantasai> Mike: A specific example of this is ...
  346. # [10:36] * Quits: noah (noah_mende@81.253.43.6) (Ping timeout)
  347. # [10:36] <DanC_lap> Marcos Caceres
  348. # [10:36] <fantasai> Mike: A large part of the spec is the spec for the window object
  349. # [10:36] <fantasai> Mike: It used to be a separate spec
  350. # [10:36] <fantasai> Mike: And we agree it should be a separate spec
  351. # [10:36] <fantasai> Mike: But we didn't have an editor, so we merged it into the HTML5 spec
  352. # [10:36] <fantasai> Mike: There are alots of things in HTML5 that rely on it
  353. # [10:36] <fantasai> Mike: If we had someone to take over ...
  354. # [10:37] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Quit: tlr)
  355. # [10:37] <fantasai> ??: ...
  356. # [10:37] <fantasai> Hixie: The window part is a big part of the spec
  357. # [10:37] <fantasai> Mike: what about ..
  358. # [10:37] <fantasai> Hixie: there's too much stuff that relies on it
  359. # [10:38] <fantasai> Hixie: The remote event target would be a better choice. That's a reasonably self-contained thing. i'd estimate 5 hours a week for a few months and then 1 hour a week for a year
  360. # [10:38] <fantasai> ??: ... might get more people to volunteer if you have chunks like 5 hours / week
  361. # [10:38] <fantasai> Hixie: The more trivial sections are done
  362. # [10:38] <fantasai> Hixie: Stuff like canvas etc. that are 40 hours a week for a year, those are where we really need eidtors
  363. # [10:38] <fantasai> Hixie: Particularly rendering view
  364. # [10:39] <fantasai> Hixie: that really is a separate document
  365. # [10:39] <fantasai> Hixie: The section that defines legacy attributes
  366. # [10:39] <fantasai> Mike: If you look at the current spec, that section says "to come"
  367. # [10:39] <fantasai> Hixie: It didn't really make sense to define it until about now.
  368. # [10:39] <fantasai> Mike: What we expect from having a discusison with the TAG, one of the tangible things we can talk about
  369. # [10:40] * MichaelC thinks it should be possible to come with strategies to edit sections of the doc that aren't trivial, but don't require 40 hours / week either (happy medium in commitment and value)
  370. # [10:40] * DanC_lap realizes we blew by the break time
  371. # [10:40] <fantasai> Mike: ... we do have time set aside tomorrow to go through and look at the spec section by section and decide which parts of it are mature and stable with an eye towards what we're ready to write testcases for.
  372. # [10:40] <fantasai> Mike: But also look at what sections we can split out and look for editors for
  373. # [10:40] <fantasai> Mike: Then we could make proposals about parts of the spec that could be taken on by separate editors
  374. # [10:40] <fantasai> Mike: And if we have a concrete list, an assesment about which parts and what level of effort would be needed to maintain that part of the spec
  375. # [10:41] <fantasai> Mika: Then we could maybe get more people interested in parts of the spec
  376. # [10:41] <fantasai> Hixie: I've been privately approaching people. Also someone from Opera recently asked about working on the timer starts
  377. # [10:41] <fantasai> Hixie: Some sections are marked "i'm looking for an editor"
  378. # [10:41] <fantasai> Hixie: Even then it's taken me a year to find someone for timer
  379. # [10:41] * Joins: hsivonen_ (hsivonen@130.233.41.50)
  380. # [10:42] * Quits: ArtB (51fd2d06@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
  381. # [10:42] <fantasai> Hixie: Timer is a good example of how hard it is to estimate time needed
  382. # [10:42] <fantasai> Hixie: between the time when I first started looking for ane editor and now, the work tripled
  383. # [10:42] <fantasai> Hixie: because the webapps group became looking at a next-generation timing ...
  384. # [10:42] <fantasai> Hixie: the problem we had with the window object was that we thought it was very small, 2-line api
  385. # [10:43] <fantasai> Hixie: And now it's a third of the spec, and the editor couldn't cope with what became the scope of the work.
  386. # [10:43] <fantasai> Hsivonen: Another thing is that the editor to do a good job needs to have extended exposure to the bug database of a browser engine
  387. # [10:43] <fantasai> Hixie: or preferably more than one
  388. # [10:43] <fantasai> Hsivonen: And there aren't very many people with that kind of exposure.
  389. # [10:43] <DanC_lap> (seems like we could separate editing and authoring/design more.)
  390. # [10:43] * Quits: hsivonen (hsivonen@81.253.48.240) (Quit: hsivonen)
  391. # [10:43] * Quits: Joshue (Joshue@81.253.57.141) (Quit: Computer goes to sleep!)
  392. # [10:43] <fantasai> Mike: So let's put together a list of what parts of the spec we could split out and how much work we think they'll be
  393. # [10:44] <fantasai> Mike: but let's take a break and come back at 11.
  394. # [10:44] <fantasai> BREAK
  395. # [10:44] * Quits: Laura (laura@131.212.34.26) (Quit: Laura)
  396. # [10:45] <fantasai> s/??/Cynthia/
  397. # [10:46] * Quits: Julian_Reschke (chatzilla@81.253.30.64) (Ping timeout)
  398. # [10:47] * Quits: najib (chatzilla@81.253.53.126) (Ping timeout)
  399. # [10:47] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@81.253.48.80) (Ping timeout)
  400. # [10:49] <mjs> DanC_lap, it's not clear to me that would improve matters; few people are qualified to do the authoring/design, while the mechanical edits are at the same time only a small fraction of the work and also opportunities for introducing errors into the design
  401. # [10:52] * Joins: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38)
  402. # [10:53] <Yves> 2
  403. # [11:06] * Joins: myakura (myakura@81.253.62.167)
  404. # [11:07] * Joins: najib (chatzilla@81.253.63.33)
  405. # [11:10] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@81.253.48.80)
  406. # [11:12] * Joins: Julian_Reschke (chatzilla@81.253.0.196)
  407. # [11:12] * gsnedders notes there are a few gaps around the table
  408. # [11:14] * Joins: hsivonen (hsivonen@81.253.1.46)
  409. # [11:15] * gsnedders is reminded by CWilso of the whole camera thing
  410. # [11:15] * Quits: hsivonen (hsivonen@81.253.1.46) (Quit: hsivonen)
  411. # [11:15] * hsivonen_ is now known as hsivonen
  412. # [11:17] <dino> what is the whole camera thing?
  413. # [11:18] <fantasai> Topic: TAG joint meeting
  414. # [11:18] * Joins: Joshue (Joshue@81.253.1.28)
  415. # [11:18] <fantasai> Mike: Next hour and a half discussion with TAG
  416. # [11:18] <fantasai> Mik: A number of issues potential topics
  417. # [11:18] <fantasai> Mike: Modularization of spec is top one
  418. # [11:18] <fantasai> Mike: Other topics are on the list as well.
  419. # [11:18] <anne> celebreties at the table man
  420. # [11:19] <anne> (re dino)
  421. # [11:19] <fantasai> Mike: Since we have time and attention of TAG, we should try to discuss those issue too
  422. # [11:19] * Joins: noah (noah_mende@81.253.1.255)
  423. # [11:19] <fantasai> Mike: BUt we start with modularization
  424. # [11:19] <fantasai> Mike: First I'd like to do a quick self-intro
  425. # [11:19] * Quits: marcos (marcos@81.253.13.196) (Connection reset by peer)
  426. # [11:19] * Joins: gsnedders_ (gsnedders@81.253.43.215)
  427. # [11:19] <DanC_lap> Henry Thompson
  428. # [11:19] <dbaron> Henry Thompson, U of Edinburgh
  429. # [11:19] * noah My name is spelled Noah Mendelsohn
  430. # [11:19] * Joins: Norm (ndw@81.253.31.184)
  431. # [11:19] <DanC_lap> Norm Walsh
  432. # [11:19] <dbaron> Norm Walsh, Mark Logic
  433. # [11:19] * Joins: marcos (marcos@81.253.13.196)
  434. # [11:19] <Norm> Norman Walsh, Mark Logic Corporation
  435. # [11:20] * Joins: nessy (nessy@81.253.1.216)
  436. # [11:20] <dbaron> Tim Berners-Lee
  437. # [11:20] <dbaron> T. V. Raman, Google
  438. # [11:20] <Norm> Ashok Malhotra
  439. # [11:20] * Joins: ht (ht@128.30.52.30)
  440. # [11:20] <dbaron> Ashok Malhotra, Oracle
  441. # [11:20] <Norm> s/tra/tra, Oracle
  442. # [11:20] <dbaron> Noah Mendelssohn, IBM
  443. # [11:20] * Joins: sicking (chatzilla@81.253.1.206)
  444. # [11:20] * fantasai asks if anyone has duct tape handy
  445. # [11:20] <ht> ssohn/sohn/
  446. # [11:21] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@81.253.43.215) (Connection reset by peer)
  447. # [11:21] <noah> Noah Mendelsohn, IBM
  448. # [11:21] * Joins: timbl (timbl@81.253.1.232)
  449. # [11:21] * CWilso heh. Sorry, fantasai, I would have duct tape with me if I were diving on this trip.
  450. # [11:21] <dbaron> (and Dan Connolly)
  451. # [11:21] <Norm> Missing from the TAG: Stuart Williams, Dave Orchard, Jonathan Reese
  452. # [11:21] <fantasai> Mike: So first topic is Modularization of the HTML5 spec
  453. # [11:21] * smedero left his duct tape in his homeland security kit
  454. # [11:22] <fantasai> Mike: I think best way to start discussion is for members of the TAG want to discuss the problem they see here.
  455. # [11:22] * dbaron notes speaker is Henry Thompson
  456. # [11:22] <dino> fantasai, there is a Castorama 10mins walk up the road. It will have duct tape.
  457. # [11:22] <fantasai> Henry: I care a lot about distinguishing about the definition of the language as a forma artifcat and the discussion of the behavior of what browsers do with something that purports to be of that language.
  458. # [11:23] <dbaron> s/forma artifcat/formal artifact/
  459. # [11:23] <fantasai> Henry: There are two issus, one is whether the spec for the formal language is a separate spec, the other is whether that is defined.
  460. # [11:23] <fantasai> Henry: Is there such an authoring spec?
  461. # [11:24] <fantasai> Hixie: There has always been an intent to have that.
  462. # [11:24] <fantasai> Hixie: There are two: one is a stylesheet applied to the spec, the other is a non-normative guide.
  463. # [11:24] <fantasai> Tim: ... the parts that define the valid document and that that define error-recovery are separate and flagged differently.
  464. # [11:25] <anne> (Simon being Simon Pieters)
  465. # [11:25] <fantasai> Tim: ... synchronization with the spec
  466. # [11:25] <fantasai> Hixie: Because the spec has a lot of churn, it would be hard to ...
  467. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> q?
  468. # [11:25] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  469. # [11:25] <fantasai> Tim: Once it's been done once could one assume it would be simple to add tags to the new content?
  470. # [11:25] <fantasai> Hixie: I'd like to epmhasize that the spec is not just for browsers, but for all user agents
  471. # [11:26] <fantasai> Noah?: I'm coming from the same place that Henry is.
  472. # [11:26] * Joins: zcorpan (zcorpan@213.236.208.22)
  473. # [11:26] <dbaron> s/Noah?/Noah/
  474. # [11:26] <fantasai> Noah?: I'd also like to say that the TAG as a whole has no opinion on this. We're here to learn
  475. # [11:26] * karl notes that a stylesheet will extract the content model but there is a lot of work to do to make it readable by people. Good thing to do but just a first step.
  476. # [11:26] <fantasai> Noah: I'm speaking for me personally, not for the TAG.
  477. # [11:26] <dbaron> s/Noah?/Noah/
  478. # [11:26] * karl talking about authoring spec
  479. # [11:26] <fantasai> Noah: One lurking issue is to what extent you believe that over a period of 5-10 years, most user agents will do pretty much what the spec you're writing says.
  480. # [11:27] <fantasai> Hixie: Over a period of 5-10 years either the browsers will change to match the spec, or the spec will change to match the browser.
  481. # [11:27] * CWilso notes that now that I ran upstairs to change to a warmer shirt, they've cranked up the heat. Sigh.
  482. # [11:27] <fantasai> Noah: Browsers do crazy stuff. They will keep parsing through tag soup, everything but the kitchen sink.
  483. # [11:27] <fantasai> Noah: What about parsers for other applications. Will they do the same quirky stuff?
  484. # [11:27] <fantasai> Hixie: Yes.
  485. # [11:28] <karl> q+
  486. # [11:28] * Zakim sees karl on the speaker queue
  487. # [11:28] <fantasai> Noah: I think it's good ot distinguish over time a clean HTML format.
  488. # [11:28] <Lachy> q+
  489. # [11:28] * Zakim sees karl, Lachy on the speaker queue
  490. # [11:28] <fantasai> Noah: And try to get people to write that.
  491. # [11:28] <fantasai> Noah: Over time that that becomes the language spec.
  492. # [11:28] <fantasai> Noah: It becomes a contract between authors and consumers
  493. # [11:29] <fantasai> Noah: The spec I would ideally like to see would be an HTML5 spec that isn't mentally for authors, but is the language spec, that says this is a table, this is ..
  494. # [11:29] <timbl> q+
  495. # [11:29] * Zakim sees karl, Lachy, timbl on the speaker queue
  496. # [11:29] <fantasai> Hixie: THat is the current spec minus theimplementation stuff.
  497. # [11:29] <fantasai> Noah: ... good, readable, well-ordered introduction to the language.
  498. # [11:29] <gsnedders_> s/THat/That/
  499. # [11:29] <fantasai> Hixie: we want the spec to be understandable and coherent.
  500. # [11:29] * gsnedders_ is now known as gsnedders
  501. # [11:30] * MikeSmith recognizes that we have a queue and will get to it after Noah's comments
  502. # [11:30] <fantasai> Hixie: We have various options. We can use a CSS style sheet to hid stuff. If that doesn't work, we could maintain a separate document (which would be a maintenance nightmare), or do some kind of transformation.
  503. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> ack karl
  504. # [11:30] * Zakim sees Lachy, timbl on the speaker queue
  505. # [11:30] <fantasai> Noah: I want it to be good quality
  506. # [11:30] <fantasai> Hixie: of course
  507. # [11:30] <fantasai> Karkl: The content.. of HTML5 is well-defined and stricter than that in HTML4.01
  508. # [11:30] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@81.253.43.215) (Connection reset by peer)
  509. # [11:30] <DanC_lap> (stricter... for example?)
  510. # [11:30] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@81.253.43.215)
  511. # [11:30] <dbaron> s/Karkl/Karl/
  512. # [11:30] * Joins: Al (alfredsgil@81.253.54.29)
  513. # [11:30] <fantasai> Karl: The content inside the spec, is not pareseable, not readable, for most people.
  514. # [11:30] <hsivonen> q+
  515. # [11:30] * Zakim sees Lachy, timbl, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  516. # [11:31] <timbl> q+ to point out to Naoh that n this case he does NOT want to se the proposed contract as in that model it has the full error recovery. In fact authors write who write in the clean subset of the language will enjor a document for that subset. But the contact with browsers. The contact in the HTML5 browser is not HTML5 conformance.
  517. # [11:31] * Zakim sees Lachy, timbl, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  518. # [11:31] <fantasai> Karl: An automatic translation with CSS or XSLT will not be enough
  519. # [11:31] <fantasai> Karl: So there is a need for a separate document.
  520. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> ack Lachy
  521. # [11:31] * Zakim sees timbl, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  522. # [11:31] <Hixie> q+ for another example tool
  523. # [11:31] * Zakim sees timbl, hsivonen, Hixie on the speaker queue
  524. # [11:31] <fantasai> Lachlan: Just wrt tools that parse HTML that aren't browsers and wrt clean HTML spec
  525. # [11:31] <marcos> +q
  526. # [11:31] * Zakim sees timbl, hsivonen, Hixie, marcos on the speaker queue
  527. # [11:31] <fantasai> Lachlan: The spec needs to define an algorithm that parses all the crap on the web.
  528. # [11:31] <karl> DanC_lap, for example no align attribute
  529. # [11:32] <DanC_lap> thanks.
  530. # [11:32] <marcos> -q
  531. # [11:32] * Zakim sees timbl, hsivonen, Hixie on the speaker queue
  532. # [11:32] <fantasai> Lachlan: The parsing section that handles the non-clean stuff is very tightly integrated into the part that handles the clean stuff
  533. # [11:32] <fantasai> Lachlan: people who want to just parse an HTML table can grab an off-the shelf library
  534. # [11:32] <Hixie> DanC_lap: also much stricter rules for nesting interactive elements, iirc
  535. # [11:32] <fantasai> Lachlan: Having a tool that only accepts clean input does not seem particularly useful.
  536. # [11:32] * karl recommends http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/09/fixing-html-with-html5 for lunch reading to DanC_lap
  537. # [11:32] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 And The Hear-Write Web - W3C Q Weblog (at www.w3.org)
  538. # [11:32] <fantasai> Anne: The spec does allow such an implementation.
  539. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> ack timbl
  540. # [11:33] <Zakim> timbl, you wanted to point out to Naoh that n this case he does NOT want to se the proposed contract as in that model it has the full error recovery. In fact authors write who
  541. # [11:33] <Zakim> ... write in the clean subset of the language will enjor a document for that subset. But the contact with browsers. The contact in the HTML5 browser is not HTML5 conformance.
  542. # [11:33] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Hixie on the speaker queue
  543. # [11:33] <fantasai> Tim: When you asked for the contract document, I suspect in this case you don't want it. Becaus ein this case the contract is that the reader will understand the clean stuff as well as the garbage
  544. # [11:33] * Philip notes pimpbot said "W3C Q Weblog", and thinks MikeSmith needs to give the bot a better HTML parser
  545. # [11:33] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@81.253.43.215) (Connection reset by peer)
  546. # [11:33] <fantasai> Tim: You'll get the whole mess.
  547. # [11:33] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@81.253.43.215)
  548. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#syntax
  549. # [11:33] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at www.w3.org)
  550. # [11:33] <Hixie> q+ for also talking about the syntax section
  551. # [11:33] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Hixie on the speaker queue
  552. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#conformance-requirements
  553. # [11:33] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at www.w3.org)
  554. # [11:33] <fantasai> Tim: ... generate a clean document without any quirks.
  555. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> q?
  556. # [11:33] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Hixie on the speaker queue
  557. # [11:33] * Quits: Al (alfredsgil@81.253.54.29) (Ping timeout)
  558. # [11:34] <fantasai> Tim: But the browser language , which is what this group is working on, ...
  559. # [11:34] <fantasai> Tim: but there's a separate language that is described as conforming HTML5
  560. # [11:34] <fantasai> Tim: that's describedin the spec
  561. # [11:34] <fantasai> Tim: but that's not the same as the contract for the browsers
  562. # [11:34] <marcos> +q
  563. # [11:34] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Hixie, marcos on the speaker queue
  564. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> q?
  565. # [11:34] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Hixie, marcos on the speaker queue
  566. # [11:34] <fantasai> Tim: ... ideally everything will be clean and won't have any quirks
  567. # [11:34] * DanC_lap encourages timbl to check what the scribe is getting, which is pretty representative of what a typical meeting attendee is getting.
  568. # [11:34] * karl notices that pimpbot has a parse error on &
  569. # [11:34] <fantasai> Tim: You applea to the contract between the reader and the writer, and the ...
  570. # [11:35] <fantasai> Noah: What you call conforming HTML5 is what I call HTMl5.
  571. # [11:35] * CWilso @danc lol
  572. # [11:35] <fantasai> Tim: That has nothing to do with what the browser accepts. It's not part of the contact.
  573. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> ack hsivonen
  574. # [11:35] * Zakim sees Hixie, marcos on the speaker queue
  575. # [11:35] <fantasai> Hsivonen: Two issues. One, for whom is this language spec intended. Karl mentioned authors.
  576. # [11:35] <fantasai> Hsivonen: THen there's the suggestion taht there be a normative description of the conforming language.
  577. # [11:36] <fantasai> Hsivonen: These are two different things.
  578. # [11:36] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/#writing-html-documents
  579. # [11:36] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at www.whatwg.org)
  580. # [11:36] * Philip thinks authors will use the validator instead of a spec, if they use anything at all
  581. # [11:36] <Hixie> er, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/syntax.html#writing-html-documents
  582. # [11:36] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at www.whatwg.org)
  583. # [11:36] <fantasai> Hsivonen: The Writing HTML section is a language-lawyer description of the character streams that will go through the parsing algorithm without hitting any error conditions
  584. # [11:36] <fantasai> Hsivonen:....
  585. # [11:36] <fantasai> Hsivonen: But if you are a typical author, yo udon't want to read the stuff in that section.
  586. # [11:37] <fantasai> Hsivonen: Part of it is because it is written very strict. It lists all the unicode characters, e.g.
  587. # [11:37] <marcos> -q
  588. # [11:37] * Zakim sees Hixie on the speaker queue
  589. # [11:37] <fantasai> Hsivonen: If we have this normative language spec, we don't get the ocument ? was talking about.
  590. # [11:37] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30)
  591. # [11:37] <marcos> s/?/lachy
  592. # [11:37] <fantasai> Hsivonen: Using this language spec for parsing, because there are no off-the s-elf parsers that don't do error recovery
  593. # [11:37] <gsnedders> s/ocument/document/
  594. # [11:38] <Hixie> -q
  595. # [11:38] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  596. # [11:38] * Joins: timeless (timeless@65.75.195.122)
  597. # [11:38] <ht> q+ ht
  598. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> q?
  599. # [11:38] * Zakim sees ht on the speaker queue
  600. # [11:38] <fantasai> Hsvonen: If you wanted something that only parsed clean conforming HTML, then you 'd have to write one. But to do error recoery you have libraries.
  601. # [11:38] * Zakim sees ht on the speaker queue
  602. # [11:38] <karl> s/off-the s-elf/off-the shelf/
  603. # [11:38] <fantasai> Marcos: ... fixation on having clean markup.
  604. # [11:38] <Julian_Reschke> q+
  605. # [11:38] * Zakim sees ht, Julian_Reschke on the speaker queue
  606. # [11:38] <fantasai> Marcos: maybe because you want a tree that is serializable as XHTML
  607. # [11:38] <DanC_lap> q+ to think out loud about the character encoding dection algorithm
  608. # [11:38] * Zakim sees ht, Julian_Reschke, DanC_lap on the speaker queue
  609. # [11:38] <fantasai> Marcos: You get a DOM tree anyway. You can convert to XML anyway.
  610. # [11:39] <fantasai> Tim: Because youauthors want to know how to write HTML, what element to put for what.
  611. # [11:39] <fantasai> Marcos: But that's what an authoring guide would be for.
  612. # [11:39] <fantasai> Marcos: ...
  613. # [11:39] <Hixie> q+
  614. # [11:39] * Zakim sees ht, Julian_Reschke, DanC_lap, Hixie on the speaker queue
  615. # [11:39] <Hixie> q-
  616. # [11:39] * Zakim sees ht, Julian_Reschke, DanC_lap on the speaker queue
  617. # [11:39] * Joins: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167)
  618. # [11:39] <fantasai> Noah: Are you saying you don't feel any need for people to fix their non-nested tags?
  619. # [11:39] <fantasai> Marcos: Yes. Who cares?
  620. # [11:39] <fantasai> Tim: There are two problems. In the short term it's confusing, teaching someone they won't get it.
  621. # [11:40] <fantasai> Tim: In the book about how to build a web page you say inside the body there are paragraphs.
  622. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> q?
  623. # [11:40] * Zakim sees ht, Julian_Reschke, DanC_lap on the speaker queue
  624. # [11:40] <fantasai> Tim: If you're somebody who has written all kinds of other documents and has been asked to produce HTML5 output, then you want something to point this programmer to
  625. # [11:40] <Hixie> q+ normative nor for users
  626. # [11:40] * Zakim Hixie, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  627. # [11:40] <fantasai> Marcos: There needs to be a balance between teaching people the markup and how the DOM is created.
  628. # [11:40] * DanC_lap wonders who has the floor
  629. # [11:40] <Hixie> q+ to normative nor for users
  630. # [11:40] * Zakim sees ht, Julian_Reschke, DanC_lap, Hixie on the speaker queue
  631. # [11:40] <fantasai> Marcos: If I write a paragraph and I write a doctype and the a <p> element.
  632. # [11:40] * karl thinks the discussion revolves around - "Do you want to teach to your children the way TimBL talks"...
  633. # [11:41] <fantasai> Marcos: The <html> and <body> are auto-generated by the parsing algorithm
  634. # [11:41] * gsnedders karl: quickly?
  635. # [11:41] <fantasai> Tim: ... if they're just going to script it, and not ...
  636. # [11:41] * Joins: Al (alfredsgil@81.253.5.55)
  637. # [11:41] <fantasai> Tim: And it looks really cool .. toutputting documetns they want it visible and usable by peopel .. in200 yars time. they want to produce something that is valid.
  638. # [11:41] <hsivonen> q+
  639. # [11:41] * Zakim sees ht, Julian_Reschke, DanC_lap, Hixie, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  640. # [11:41] <noah> q+ to wonder if we're just disagreeing on what should be normative
  641. # [11:41] * Zakim sees ht, Julian_Reschke, DanC_lap, Hixie, hsivonen, noah on the speaker queue
  642. # [11:41] <gsnedders> s/in2/in 2/
  643. # [11:41] <Julian_Reschke> q-
  644. # [11:41] * Zakim sees ht, DanC_lap, Hixie, hsivonen, noah on the speaker queue
  645. # [11:41] <gsnedders> s/yars/years/
  646. # [11:41] <fantasai> Tim: There are a class of users that need to know what exactly .. eing able to roll up some documents .. dom obviously it's much easier spec to read
  647. # [11:41] * karl gsnedders weird grammars, unfinished sentences, quick. etc. I can understand it, but I don't want to write it
  648. # [11:42] <fantasai> Marcos: The aprsing already algorithm doesn't do what you say, it inserts elements at random
  649. # [11:42] <fantasai> laughter
  650. # [11:42] <fantasai> Marcos: well not exactly at arndom
  651. # [11:42] <gsnedders> s/toutputting/to outputting/
  652. # [11:42] <sicking> q+ for when you have miss-nested tags you probably have a bug
  653. # [11:42] * Zakim sees ht, DanC_lap, Hixie, hsivonen, noah, sicking on the speaker queue
  654. # [11:42] <gsnedders> s/peopel/people/
  655. # [11:42] <fantasai> Marcos: THe parsinga algorithm of HTML5 already defines this.
  656. # [11:42] <fantasai> Marcos tries to give an example
  657. # [11:42] <karl> q?
  658. # [11:42] * Zakim sees ht, DanC_lap, Hixie, hsivonen, noah, sicking on the speaker queue
  659. # [11:42] <fantasai> Mike: I'd like to interrupt, we're straying off-topic and other peopel are on the queue
  660. # [11:42] <Hixie> q-
  661. # [11:42] * Zakim sees ht, DanC_lap, hsivonen, noah, sicking on the speaker queue
  662. # [11:42] <Julian_Reschke> q+ to say that HTML->DOM is not sufficient because there are many cases where you want to be able to process a stream of token instead of a tree (because of memory constraints)
  663. # [11:42] * Zakim sees ht, DanC_lap, hsivonen, noah, sicking, Julian_Reschke on the speaker queue
  664. # [11:42] <gsnedders> s/aprsing/parsing/
  665. # [11:42] <fantasai> Mike: we want to focus on the idea of having aseparate spec for the language.
  666. # [11:43] <gsnedders> s/arndom/random
  667. # [11:43] <fantasai> ??: We were drilling down into why we need such a spec
  668. # [11:43] <Lachy> q+
  669. # [11:43] * Zakim sees ht, DanC_lap, hsivonen, noah, sicking, Julian_Reschke, Lachy on the speaker queue
  670. # [11:43] <Norm> s/??/Murray/
  671. # [11:43] <gsnedders> s/aseper/a seper/
  672. # [11:43] <Lachy> q-
  673. # [11:43] * Zakim sees ht, DanC_lap, hsivonen, noah, sicking, Julian_Reschke on the speaker queue
  674. # [11:43] <gsnedders> s/asepar/a separ/
  675. # [11:43] <fantasai> Tim: It might be useful to have two different documents. One describes what you should send down the wire to get this result in the DOM. The other is what you shoudl send down the wire to make a web page
  676. # [11:43] <DanC_lap> ack ht
  677. # [11:43] * Zakim sees DanC_lap, hsivonen, noah, sicking, Julian_Reschke on the speaker queue
  678. # [11:43] <karl> is it just a matter of finding an editor for this document, and then discuss later on about the requirements and conformance options of this document
  679. # [11:44] <fantasai> Henry: I'm perfectly happy for as many ppl out there as want to never to use a strict parser as long as they don't mind I want to use a strict parser.
  680. # [11:44] <karl> I'm willing to write this document after November
  681. # [11:44] <fantasai> Henry: I think the case today that the students in CS are told they must submit HTML that passes the w3c validator. That's part of the education parocess.
  682. # [11:44] <fantasai> Henry: There's a substantial history of curriclulm developme t that led us to want to do that.
  683. # [11:44] <Norm> s/Murray/Murray Maloney/
  684. # [11:44] * Quits: timbl (timbl@81.253.1.232) (Connection reset by peer)
  685. # [11:44] <Hixie> MikeSmith, can i jump in here?
  686. # [11:44] <fantasai> Henry: As long as you're fine with us doing that, then I'm happy for you to use whatever parser you want to use.
  687. # [11:45] <fantasai> Henry: If the spec is going to discourage that, then I think we have a problem here.
  688. # [11:45] <gsnedders> q+ to say that strict parsers only check a very small subset of conformance
  689. # [11:45] * Zakim sees DanC_lap, hsivonen, noah, sicking, Julian_Reschke, gsnedders on the speaker queue
  690. # [11:45] * Quits: jun (fujisawa_j@81.253.44.35) (Ping timeout)
  691. # [11:45] <fantasai> Hixi: The parser define din HTML5 today allows any implementation to abort on the first error.
  692. # [11:45] <MikeSmith> q?
  693. # [11:45] * Zakim sees DanC_lap, hsivonen, noah, sicking, Julian_Reschke, gsnedders on the speaker queue
  694. # [11:45] <fantasai> Henry: That's good enough for me.
  695. # [11:45] <MikeSmith> ack DanC_lap
  696. # [11:45] <Zakim> DanC_lap, you wanted to think out loud about the character encoding dection algorithm
  697. # [11:45] * Zakim sees hsivonen, noah, sicking, Julian_Reschke, gsnedders on the speaker queue
  698. # [11:45] * Joins: timbl (timbl@81.253.1.232)
  699. # [11:45] * Joins: gsnedders_ (gsnedders@81.253.43.215)
  700. # [11:45] * Quits: seungyun (chatzilla@81.253.43.198) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417])
  701. # [11:45] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@81.253.43.215) (Connection reset by peer)
  702. # [11:45] <fantasai> DanC: The spec modularization problems that I run into are things like the character detection algorithm, which is e.g. used in some other webapp spec
  703. # [11:46] <fantasai> Tim: Sounds like a separate spec to me.
  704. # [11:46] <fantasai> DanC: I think it's been copied into the webapps spec?
  705. # [11:46] <fantasai> Marcos: we reference it?
  706. # [11:46] * gsnedders_ is now known as gsnedders
  707. # [11:46] <fantasai> DanC: Is the scheduling ok so that HTML5 will be done before you need to advance through REC track?
  708. # [11:46] <fantasai> Hixie: That section is very specific to determining hcaracter encoding for HTML
  709. # [11:47] * Quits: timbl (timbl@81.253.1.232) (Connection reset by peer)
  710. # [11:47] <fantasai> Hixie: It's not like the URI spec which is independent
  711. # [11:47] <fantasai> Hixie: this is literally part of HTML
  712. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#determining-the-character-encoding
  713. # [11:47] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at www.w3.org)
  714. # [11:47] <fantasai> Hixie: It makes sense to refer to HTML to talk about HTML
  715. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> q?
  716. # [11:47] * Zakim sees hsivonen, noah, sicking, Julian_Reschke, gsnedders on the speaker queue
  717. # [11:47] <fantasai> DanC: Suppose they want to finish their spec before HTML5?
  718. # [11:47] * fantasai is confused
  719. # [11:48] * Joins: timbl (timbl@81.253.1.232)
  720. # [11:48] <fantasai> TIm: 2 groups use the same algorithm, then typical way of doing this is to rip out that part and put it in a separate module
  721. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> fantasai, I'll try to summarize after tim
  722. # [11:48] <fantasai> Tim: Because that piece is small, it gets reviewed by a bunch of people who wouldn't look at tHTML5
  723. # [11:48] <fantasai> Tim: i18n will pore over it
  724. # [11:48] * Joins: gsnedders_ (gsnedders@81.253.43.215)
  725. # [11:48] <timeless> s/tHTML5/HTML5/
  726. # [11:49] <fantasai> Tim: and it'll go to REC fast and become a useful tool for the community
  727. # [11:49] <Lachy> q+
  728. # [11:49] * Zakim sees hsivonen, noah, sicking, Julian_Reschke, gsnedders, Lachy on the speaker queue
  729. # [11:49] * gsnedders_ wants a stable IRC connection
  730. # [11:49] * timbl thanks the scribe
  731. # [11:49] <gsnedders_> q-
  732. # [11:49] * Zakim sees hsivonen, noah, sicking, Julian_Reschke, gsnedders, Lachy on the speaker queue
  733. # [11:49] <fantasai> MikeSmitH: We already have a lot of other specs besides HTML5 that already normatively reference or will need to normatively reference parts of HTML5
  734. # [11:49] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@81.253.43.215) (Connection reset by peer)
  735. # [11:49] <anne> I note that i18n and people from Unicode have in fact reviewed those parts of HTML5
  736. # [11:49] <gsnedders_> q- gsnedders_
  737. # [11:49] * Zakim sees hsivonen, noah, sicking, Julian_Reschke, gsnedders, Lachy on the speaker queue
  738. # [11:49] <gsnedders_> q- gsnedders
  739. # [11:49] <fantasai> MikeSmith: HTML5 will block them
  740. # [11:49] * Zakim sees hsivonen, noah, sicking, Julian_Reschke, Lachy on the speaker queue
  741. # [11:49] * gsnedders_ is now known as gsnedders
  742. # [11:49] <fantasai> Hixie notes that the chardetection depends on other parts of HTML
  743. # [11:50] * Joins: dom (dom@128.30.52.30)
  744. # [11:50] <anne> Character encoding detection was e.g. discussed last year with the i18n WG
  745. # [11:50] <fantasai> MikeSmith: I don't want to split hairs on exact status details, but if our spec is not mature enough and people need to depend on parts of it, it would be easier to facilitate those references if those pieces of the spec were separate specifications and were moved along on a faster track.
  746. # [11:50] <fantasai> Hixie: it depends on the rest of the language.
  747. # [11:50] * dbaron has heard long discussions of solving the backward-references problem for a specific pair of specs many times more than the problem has actually occurred
  748. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> q?
  749. # [11:51] * Zakim sees hsivonen, noah, sicking, Julian_Reschke, Lachy on the speaker queue
  750. # [11:51] <fantasai> Hixie: So the character encoding determination seciton does it looks for a <meta> elemetn with a charset attribute
  751. # [11:51] <timeless> s/seciton/section/
  752. # [11:51] <Julian_Reschke> q-
  753. # [11:51] * Zakim sees hsivonen, noah, sicking, Lachy on the speaker queue
  754. # [11:51] <gsnedders> s/elemetn/element/
  755. # [11:51] <fantasai> Hixie: While doing that it tries to skip comments and other syntactic things.
  756. # [11:51] <fantasai> Anne: there's hookbacks from the parser
  757. # [11:51] <fantasai> Hixie: once you.. whole thing about scripts
  758. # [11:51] <fantasai> Hixie: the idea that we have a charset attribute in HTML5. That's new. We didn't have that on HTML4.
  759. # [11:51] <fantasai> Hixie: we don't have agrement on that. It might change.
  760. # [11:52] <fantasai> Hixie: until that gets accepted, then we can't move it forward.
  761. # [11:52] <fantasai> Anne: Those other people are reviewing the draft. We had comments from unicode and i18n last year.
  762. # [11:52] <Lachy> q-
  763. # [11:52] * Zakim sees hsivonen, noah, sicking on the speaker queue
  764. # [11:52] <fantasai> MikeSmith: But we aren't communicating the changes.
  765. # [11:52] <fantasai> MikeSmith: They aren't aware of our chagnes to that.
  766. # [11:53] <fantasai> Anne: I dont entirely agree. When we publish a new working draft, we list the changes.
  767. # [11:53] <fantasai> Mike: I've been trying to do that, but the number of changes is huge
  768. # [11:53] <gsnedders> s/dont/don't/
  769. # [11:53] <gsnedders> q?
  770. # [11:53] * Zakim sees hsivonen, noah, sicking on the speaker queue
  771. # [11:53] <fantasai> Mike: It's good that we are improving the spec, but it's a large number of changes. But expecting that the ppl outisde the group will be able to understand all those changes ...
  772. # [11:54] * karl testifies that Mike has a few sleepless nights because of that changes document
  773. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> ack hsivonen
  774. # [11:54] * Zakim sees noah, sicking on the speaker queue
  775. # [11:54] <fantasai> Hixie: experience with CSSWG is that splitting the specc doesn't work.
  776. # [11:54] <timeless> s/specc/spec/
  777. # [11:54] <sicking> q-
  778. # [11:54] * Zakim sees noah on the speaker queue
  779. # [11:54] <fantasai> Hsivonen: I'd like to .. marcos about ... parsing algorithm
  780. # [11:54] <fantasai> Hsivonen: I don't think author should have to figure out what kind of crazy stuff can be done.
  781. # [11:54] <gsnedders> s/../disagree with/
  782. # [11:54] <fantasai> Hsivonen: I think we should say if you do this, it will work. Don't need to explain all the other crazy stuff that could be done that would also work
  783. # [11:55] * Quits: arun (arun@81.253.45.248) (Quit: arun)
  784. # [11:55] <fantasai> Hsivonen: If you want a strict parser the right way tot do it is to take an existing one and register an error handler that the only thing it does is throw an exception
  785. # [11:55] <fantasai> Hsivonen: that gives you a strict parser
  786. # [11:55] <DanC_lap> (bummer... the pointer to encoding tests from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007JanMar/0054.html has gone 404...)
  787. # [11:55] <pimpbot> Title: Re: brainstorming: test cases, issues, goals, etc. from James Graham on 2007-03-14 (public-html@w3.org from January to March 2007) (at lists.w3.org)
  788. # [11:55] <timbl> q?
  789. # [11:55] * Zakim sees noah on the speaker queue
  790. # [11:55] <fantasai> Hsivonen: I think the discusison about stability and referencing, might point out a problem in the Process.
  791. # [11:55] <fantasai> Hsivonen: It's not only HTMl5 hat has this problem.
  792. # [11:55] <gsnedders> s/HTMl/HTML/
  793. # [11:56] <DanC_lap> CURIEs
  794. # [11:56] * Quits: timbl (timbl@81.253.1.232) (Connection reset by peer)
  795. # [11:56] <timeless> s/hat/that/
  796. # [11:56] <karl> http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/10/normative-references-conformance
  797. # [11:56] <pimpbot> Title: Normative References to Moving Targets are Dangerous - W3C Q Weblog (at www.w3.org)
  798. # [11:56] <fantasai> Hsivonen: E.g. RDFA copy-pasted CURIES
  799. # [11:56] <dbaron> s/RDFA/RDFa/
  800. # [11:56] <fantasai> Hsivonen: SO there's an instance of this problem in a case where teh specs are much more closer to each other.
  801. # [11:56] <dbaron> s/CURIES/CURIEs/
  802. # [11:56] <timeless> s/teh/the/
  803. # [11:56] * Quits: marcos (marcos@81.253.13.196) (Connection reset by peer)
  804. # [11:56] <gsnedders> s/SO/So/
  805. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> q?
  806. # [11:56] * Zakim sees noah on the speaker queue
  807. # [11:56] * Joins: timbl (timbl@81.253.1.232)
  808. # [11:56] <fantasai> Hsivonen: Then SVG 1.2 Tiny can't reference CSS.21 and instead are referencing CSS2.0 even though every implementor knows nobody should be looking at CSS2.0 and should look at CSS2.1 instead
  809. # [11:56] <timeless> s/.21/2.1/
  810. # [11:56] * Joins: marcos (marcos@81.253.13.196)
  811. # [11:56] <fantasai> Hsivonen: Does it help anyone for the process to force these things?
  812. # [11:57] <smedero> DanC_lap: I think you're looking for this: http://html5lib.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/testdata/encoding/
  813. # [11:57] <pimpbot> Title: Revision 1229: /trunk/testdata/encoding (at html5lib.googlecode.com)
  814. # [11:57] <fantasai> Hsivonen: In HTML5, if it's going to change in HTML5, we want webapps to match that.
  815. # [11:57] <ht> q+ to point out that there are two solutions to Henri's point within the process
  816. # [11:57] * Zakim sees noah, ht on the speaker queue
  817. # [11:57] * Joins: seungyun (syl@81.253.6.64)
  818. # [11:57] <fantasai> Hsivonen: The point is for the two to match, so you use the same codepath
  819. # [11:58] * gsnedders thinks fantasai is being bossy
  820. # [11:58] <shepazu> hsivonen, the parts of the CSS spec SVG references hasn't changed between 2.0 and 2.1
  821. # [11:58] <smedero> DanC_lap: (well and then the scripts that deal with that... which have moved here: http://html5lib.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/python/tests/)
  822. # [11:58] <pimpbot> Title: Revision 1229: /trunk/python/tests (at html5lib.googlecode.com)
  823. # [11:58] <fantasai> Hsivonen: Even if webapps goes to REC, if the HTML5 encoding detection changes then webapps wants to match that.
  824. # [11:58] <karl> s/DanC_lap:/DanC_lap,/
  825. # [11:58] <timeless> /ignore #tpchat join
  826. # [11:58] <DanC_lap> (smedero, I only see 4 tests there. is that how many should be there?)
  827. # [11:58] <fantasai> Hsivonen: If we're working around a problem in the process that other WGs are facing to and the solutions aren't really helping with implementing the specs, perhaps instead of working around the problem we should solve the probolem
  828. # [11:59] <timeless> s/probolem/problem/
  829. # [11:59] <fantasai> Tim: The process is a tool, it's ours to use. The fact that there's a two-step difference in level between something that you can reference and something in your own lelvel is unusual in the standards world and
  830. # [11:59] <fantasai> tim: ISO and IETF you could only reference a standard
  831. # [11:59] <timeless> s/lelvel/level/
  832. # [11:59] <fantasai> Tim: Or mabye something at the same level
  833. # [11:59] <karl> That it is not the W3C Process which gives this requirement
  834. # [11:59] <fantasai> Tim: Being able to reference something less mature is regarded as a bug.
  835. # [11:59] <timeless> s/mabye/maybe/
  836. # [11:59] <karl> This is the transition document
  837. # [11:59] <dbaron> q+
  838. # [11:59] * Zakim sees noah, ht, dbaron on the speaker queue
  839. # [11:59] <fantasai> Tim: There's a good reason. If you write code fora tehcnology and it meets the standard
  840. # [11:59] <MikeSmith> q?
  841. # [11:59] * Zakim sees noah, ht, dbaron on the speaker queue
  842. # [12:00] <timeless> s/fora tehcnology/for a technology/
  843. # [12:00] <fantasai> Tim: And then the less mature spec is changed, then your software doesn't match the spec any more and stuff breaks.
  844. # [12:00] <karl> Evidence that dependencies with other groups met (or not)
  845. # [12:00] <karl> # Does this specification have any normative references to W3C specifications that are not yet Proposed Recommendations? Note: In general, documents do not advance to Recommendation with normative references to W3C specifications that are not yet Recommendations.
  846. # [12:00] <karl> # Is there evidence that additional dependencies related to implementation have been satisfied?
  847. # [12:00] <karl> -- http://www.w3.org/2005/08/online_xslt/xslt?xmlfile=http://www.w3.org/2005/08/01-transitions.html&xslfile=http://www.w3.org/2005/08/transitions.xsl&docstatus=pr-tr
  848. # [12:00] <pimpbot> Title: How to Organize a Recommendation Track Transition (at www.w3.org)
  849. # [12:00] <smedero> DanC_lap: comparing against the 1.0 branch, yes.
  850. # [12:00] <fantasai> Tim: We could change the process, but that will only help us create broken software.
  851. # [12:00] <karl> q+
  852. # [12:00] * Zakim sees noah, ht, dbaron, karl on the speaker queue
  853. # [12:00] <fantasai> Tim: WIth something like this, where we have another solution -- which is to pull out this bit of technology and make it separate spec
  854. # [12:01] <fantasai> Tim: It's got the ability to be stabilized well in advance, then you can have an appropriate ordering between your specs
  855. # [12:01] <fantasai> Tim: And it'll all work. You don't need a cycle.
  856. # [12:01] <karl> q+ to mention that it is not part of W3C process
  857. # [12:01] * Zakim sees noah, ht, dbaron, karl on the speaker queue
  858. # [12:01] <fantasai> Tim: It's when you have a cycle that you need to have this slack between the two specs.
  859. # [12:01] <fantasai> Noah: Picking up in part on what TIm said.
  860. # [12:01] <MikeSmith> ack noah
  861. # [12:01] <Zakim> noah, you wanted to wonder if we're just disagreeing on what should be normative
  862. # [12:01] <DanC_lap> (interesting point, karl; ht, I don't find any constraints on dependencies in the process document. As I recall from discussions with Ian, we rely on reviewers to complain about pointers to stuff that's not sufficiently mature.)
  863. # [12:01] <fantasai> Tim: about language tutorials
  864. # [12:01] * Zakim sees ht, dbaron, karl on the speaker queue
  865. # [12:01] <fantasai> Noah: I wanted to add up an the parts that everyboyd agreed on and not
  866. # [12:01] <Al> q+ to say that Henri's point about managing dependencies of concurrently progressing modules shows that Henry's emphasis on declarative spec introduces problems.
  867. # [12:01] * Zakim sees ht, dbaron, karl, Al on the speaker queue
  868. # [12:01] <timeless> s/everyboyd/everybody/
  869. # [12:02] <fantasai> Noah: part I heard agreement on is that the spec should go on the say you're writing it. Maybe you shoudl retitle it, but otherwise no issue
  870. # [12:02] <timeless> s/shoudl/should/
  871. # [12:02] <fantasai> Noah: I think I heard everbyody agree that there should be docuemtns that help novices learn to write HTML
  872. # [12:02] <timeless> s/everbyody/everybody/
  873. # [12:02] <pimpbot> planet: Chris Wilson on Internet Explorer 8 and the W3C HTML Working Group <http://standardssuck.org/chris>
  874. # [12:02] <fantasai> Noah: I think I heard agreement htat it should discourage improperly nested tags
  875. # [12:02] <timeless> s/docuemtns/documents/
  876. # [12:02] <Al> .. if there could be reference to a function call, we could freeze the interface to that function call and there is not breakage if the body of the function is definitized later
  877. # [12:02] <timeless> s/htat/that/
  878. # [12:02] <fantasai> Noah: THe part I didn't hear agreement on is .. defining a clean language with no errors
  879. # [12:03] <fantasai> Hixie: That already exists. I sent a link to it in IRC.
  880. # [12:03] <ht> DanC, the (in)famous '2 steps back' rule comes from the XML Plenary in San Jose in 1998 (?). Consistent with what you said, it's a guideline -- other things being equal, the presumption is that 2 or less is OK, more than that is not, but it's only a presumption
  881. # [12:03] <fantasai> Noah: Question is should it be a normative document
  882. # [12:03] <fantasai> Hixie: It is.l It's ection 8.?
  883. # [12:03] * timbl is sort of surprised to find himself in the John Klensin role and thinks he should maybe grow a beard
  884. # [12:03] <fantasai> s/ection/section/
  885. # [12:03] <fantasai> Noah: It seems to me there's a question whether you advertise to the community conforming HTML5 that is a big deal
  886. # [12:03] <fantasai> Noah: The way XML is a big deal
  887. # [12:03] <Hixie> q+
  888. # [12:03] * Zakim sees ht, dbaron, karl, Al, Hixie on the speaker queue
  889. # [12:03] * karl is tempted to take a photo of tim and add a beard
  890. # [12:04] <fantasai> Noah: If you decide you don't want to do that the world becomes very simple. You're just writing non-normative guides. Can write alots of them. They may not be very consistent.
  891. # [12:04] <gsnedders> s/alots/lots/
  892. # [12:04] <fantasai> Noah: If you do write this ection then the question is how can you write such that it is understandable for mere mortals
  893. # [12:04] <Al> ht, what Chaals learned on researching this recently is that any down-level reference will bring close scrutiny and demand for "three good reasons". I don't presently think a two-level presumption is safe.
  894. # [12:04] <fantasai> Noah: My personal preference is that you do create such a spec. I don't ahve a reasona, just abstract intuithion
  895. # [12:04] <timeless> s/ahve/have/
  896. # [12:05] <gsnedders> s/reasona/reason/
  897. # [12:05] <gsnedders> q?
  898. # [12:05] * Zakim sees ht, dbaron, karl, Al, Hixie on the speaker queue
  899. # [12:05] <fantasai> Noah: I'm curious if people ...
  900. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> q?
  901. # [12:05] * Zakim sees ht, dbaron, karl, Al, Hixie on the speaker queue
  902. # [12:05] <timeless> s/intuithion/intuition/
  903. # [12:05] * Joins: plh (plh@128.30.52.28)
  904. # [12:05] <fantasai> Noah: The optional things are,
  905. # [12:05] <fantasai> Noah: Do you write one or more non-normative informative guides to help authors write stuff.
  906. # [12:05] <fantasai> Noah: I heard that in general they should encourage the creation of clean content
  907. # [12:06] <fantasai> Noah: The more controversial option is should you write a normative and precise document that specifies only the clean language and its semantics.
  908. # [12:06] * timbl notes as an aside that http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/syntax.html#writing-html-documents could do with a specific title so it can be fund in tabs
  909. # [12:06] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at www.whatwg.org)
  910. # [12:06] <Hixie> Philip: ^ see timbl's comment
  911. # [12:06] <fantasai> Noah: I'm not using the term authoring guide, because it's not how I think of it, but it seems that's what you're thinking of
  912. # [12:06] <fantasai> Mike: One issue is the authoring language spec for HTML5
  913. # [12:06] <Hixie> Philip: if you could set that up i can regen the spec straight away
  914. # [12:07] <Philip> Hixie, what would the page title be?
  915. # [12:07] <fantasai> Mike: THe other issue is the concern Dan brought up , of other parts of the spec that dont' relate to authoring conformance but refer to browser impelemntation details
  916. # [12:07] * Quits: JonathanJ (hollobit@81.253.46.45) (Ping timeout)
  917. # [12:07] <Hixie> Philip: first h2, i guess
  918. # [12:07] <fantasai> Mike: for which there is rationale to have separate specs
  919. # [12:07] <anne> Philip, section title of 8.1 &mdash; HTML5
  920. # [12:07] <gsnedders> s/THe/The/
  921. # [12:07] <fantasai> Mike: we do wnat to talk about both thos ethings
  922. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> q?
  923. # [12:07] * Zakim sees ht, dbaron, karl, Al, Hixie on the speaker queue
  924. # [12:07] <fantasai> Mike: I want to go through the queue.
  925. # [12:07] <dbaron> q-
  926. # [12:07] * Zakim sees ht, karl, Al, Hixie on the speaker queue
  927. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> ack ht
  928. # [12:07] <karl> s/Philip:/Philip,/
  929. # [12:07] <Zakim> ht, you wanted to point out that there are two solutions to Henri's point within the process
  930. # [12:07] <fantasai> Henry passes
  931. # [12:07] * Zakim sees karl, Al, Hixie on the speaker queue
  932. # [12:07] <Philip> Hixie, some pages don't start on an <h2>, but I suppose I could just use the first heading
  933. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> ack karl
  934. # [12:07] <Zakim> karl, you wanted to mention that it is not part of W3C process
  935. # [12:07] * Zakim sees Al, Hixie on the speaker queue
  936. # [12:07] <ht> q-
  937. # [12:07] * Zakim sees Al, Hixie on the speaker queue
  938. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> q?
  939. # [12:07] * Zakim sees Al, Hixie on the speaker queue
  940. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> ack Al
  941. # [12:07] <Zakim> Al, you wanted to say that Henri's point about managing dependencies of concurrently progressing modules shows that Henry's emphasis on declarative spec introduces problems.
  942. # [12:08] <Philip> Hixie, (though it'll be a bit misleading on pages that have multiple significant sections)
  943. # [12:08] * Zakim sees Hixie on the speaker queue
  944. # [12:08] <fantasai> Karl: The discussion about modules was not about process docume t(??)
  945. # [12:08] <karl> s/modules/normative references/
  946. # [12:08] <zcorpan> Philip: "8 The HTML syntax - HTML 5"
  947. # [12:08] <fantasai> Al: I'd like to +1 what Tim was saying earlier, that there's the contract in volves two levels of strictness
  948. # [12:08] <fantasai> Al: THe contract includes the ideas that the consumer has the support of a browser which processes strigns of several varieties
  949. # [12:08] <Lachy> s/in volves/involves/
  950. # [12:08] <Hixie> Philip: yeah, but it'll be better than nothing
  951. # [12:09] <fantasai> Al: While the author gets instrcuted in how to be strict in what they emit
  952. # [12:09] <gsnedders> Philip: Why can't we just have one major section per doc?
  953. # [12:09] <fantasai> Al: This is what makes the Web interoperate today. Is that we have both statements.
  954. # [12:09] <fantasai> Al: This is what the HTML5 spec tends to do. I want to say that's valueable.
  955. # [12:09] <karl> s/process docume t(??)/process document requirements, but transition document/
  956. # [12:09] <anne> Philip, alternatively you give us an API so we can make up a title per page and such :)
  957. # [12:09] <ht> q+ to suggest we look at the URI issue
  958. # [12:09] * Zakim sees Hixie, ht on the speaker queue
  959. # [12:09] * Joins: timbl_ (timbl@81.253.8.143)
  960. # [12:09] * Quits: timbl (timbl@81.253.1.232) (Ping timeout)
  961. # [12:09] <MikeSmith> ack Hixie
  962. # [12:09] * Zakim sees ht on the speaker queue
  963. # [12:09] <fantasai> Al: That's how you make large systems interoperate. You have some space between these two.
  964. # [12:09] <fantasai> Hixie: I'd like to encourage people that want a document that defines a "clean language" to read section 8.?.?
  965. # [12:10] <fantasai> Hixie: and see if that's what they mean.
  966. # [12:10] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#semantics
  967. # [12:10] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at www.w3.org)
  968. # [12:10] <fantasai> Hixie: I'm not sure that document is useful to authors. Because it wouldnt' be something they'd unerstand.
  969. # [12:10] <fantasai> Hixie: And that's where a non-normative authoring guide comes in.
  970. # [12:10] <gsnedders> s/8.?.?/8.1/
  971. # [12:10] * Quits: mjs (mjs@69.181.43.20) (Connection reset by peer)
  972. # [12:10] <Lachy> q?
  973. # [12:10] * Zakim sees ht on the speaker queue
  974. # [12:10] <fantasai> Hixie: I don't think that splitting sctions out of the spe cto keep them more stable will work.
  975. # [12:10] <Lachy> q+
  976. # [12:10] * Zakim sees ht, Lachy on the speaker queue
  977. # [12:10] <gsnedders> s/spe cto/spec to/
  978. # [12:10] * Joins: mjs (mjs@69.181.43.20)
  979. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#the-a-element
  980. # [12:11] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at www.w3.org)
  981. # [12:11] <noah> What I have in mind is a document would be a document that would include the syntax, as well as the normative definitions of what a table is, a paragraph, etc. Ideally, I would then NOT repeat those semantics in the "larger" user agent spec.; I would have the user agent spec refer to the language spec for that.
  982. # [12:11] <fantasai> Hixie: The problem isn't aht HTML5 isn't stable,the problem is that the part that changes is the part that we want to split out
  983. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> q?
  984. # [12:11] * Zakim sees ht, Lachy on the speaker queue
  985. # [12:11] <fantasai> Hixie: I don't have a solution to that.
  986. # [12:11] <fantasai> Mike: I'd like to talk about specifics.
  987. # [12:11] * Joins: heycam (cam@124.168.124.252)
  988. # [12:11] <fantasai> Mike: We seem to have consensus that we should have an authoring spec.
  989. # [12:12] <fantasai> Mike: Several parts of the spec talk about authoring conformance criteria
  990. # [12:12] <marcos> +q
  991. # [12:12] * Zakim sees ht, Lachy, marcos on the speaker queue
  992. # [12:12] <DanC_lap> "8.1 Writing HTML documents"
  993. # [12:12] <fantasai> Mike: There's 8.1
  994. # [12:12] <fantasai> Mike: But there are also parts on semantics
  995. # [12:12] <hsivonen> q+
  996. # [12:12] * Zakim sees ht, Lachy, marcos, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  997. # [12:12] <MikeSmith> ack ht
  998. # [12:12] <Zakim> ht, you wanted to suggest we look at the URI issue
  999. # [12:12] * Zakim sees Lachy, marcos, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1000. # [12:12] <fantasai> Mike: We shoudl go to that part of the spec and see if it has what we think needs to be there
  1001. # [12:12] <fantasai> Henry: I'd like to back you up and move on to another issue.. modularization
  1002. # [12:13] <fantasai> Henry: IA different spin on it. It really is a matter of "spheres of influence"
  1003. # [12:13] <Hixie> q+
  1004. # [12:13] * Zakim sees Lachy, marcos, hsivonen, Hixie on the speaker queue
  1005. # [12:13] <fantasai> Henry: That's the URI/URL parsing section
  1006. # [12:13] <fantasai> Henry: It did feel to the TAG at least at first blush that this looked like
  1007. # [12:13] <fantasai> Henry: A misjudgement wrt serving the web community
  1008. # [12:13] <fantasai> Henry: That people need to have a consistent picture of identifiers for web resources
  1009. # [12:13] <fantasai> Henry: It's not up to the HTMLWG to decide what that string looks like
  1010. # [12:14] <MikeSmith> q?
  1011. # [12:14] * Zakim sees Lachy, marcos, hsivonen, Hixie on the speaker queue
  1012. # [12:14] <fantasai> Henry: At the very least the IETF has a stake in this. They own the relevant specs
  1013. # [12:14] * Joins: JonathanJ (hollobit@81.253.46.45)
  1014. # [12:14] <fantasai> Henry: I'd like to see if there's a willingness to look at refactoring that discussion at least.
  1015. # [12:14] <MikeSmith> ack Lachy
  1016. # [12:14] * Zakim sees marcos, hsivonen, Hixie on the speaker queue
  1017. # [12:14] <fantasai> Lachlan: Wrt splitting the spec, I'm a bit curious about who exactly we're targetting this other spec for.
  1018. # [12:14] <MikeSmith> q+ Larry
  1019. # [12:14] * Zakim sees marcos, hsivonen, Hixie, Larry on the speaker queue
  1020. # [12:15] <fantasai> Lachlan: there are a whole range of .. that use HTML5.
  1021. # [12:15] <fantasai> Lachlan: Each of those need different overlapping sections of the spec.
  1022. # [12:15] <anne> XMLHttpRequest currently refers to the HTML5 URL concept...
  1023. # [12:15] <Lachy> Authors, markup generators, authoring tools, validators, generic consumer tools, browsers.
  1024. # [12:15] <Lachy> Each needs a different set of overlapping sections of the spec.
  1025. # [12:15] <Lachy> Authors: semantics, conforming syntax
  1026. # [12:15] <Lachy> authoring tools: semantics, conforming syntax, parsing, sometimes rendering
  1027. # [12:15] <Lachy> validators: parsing
  1028. # [12:15] <Lachy> consumer tools: parsing, DOM/tree
  1029. # [12:15] <Lachy> search engines: semantics, parsing
  1030. # [12:15] <Lachy> browsers: semantics, parsing, rendering
  1031. # [12:16] <fantasai> Lachlan summarizes his notes above
  1032. # [12:16] <hsivonen> validators need a lot more than parsing
  1033. # [12:16] * karl sees a nice list of Class of Products
  1034. # [12:16] * gsnedders will stop wondering around taking photos now
  1035. # [12:16] <fantasai> Lachlan: THe problem is who exactly are we trying to target with this split spec, given that there are so many overlapping needs?
  1036. # [12:16] <DanC_lap> q+ to note that after review of the URL stuff, I found it acceptable, but I haven't "sold" others. the IETF has right of review, and I think we have an unstable/paper consensus
  1037. # [12:16] * Zakim sees marcos, hsivonen, Hixie, Larry, DanC_lap on the speaker queue
  1038. # [12:16] <marcos> -q
  1039. # [12:16] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Hixie, Larry, DanC_lap on the speaker queue
  1040. # [12:16] <gsnedders> q?
  1041. # [12:16] * karl does the happy QA dance
  1042. # [12:16] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Hixie, Larry, DanC_lap on the speaker queue
  1043. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> q?
  1044. # [12:16] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Hixie, Larry, DanC_lap on the speaker queue
  1045. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> ack hsivonen
  1046. # [12:16] * Zakim sees Hixie, Larry, DanC_lap on the speaker queue
  1047. # [12:16] <fantasai> Marcos: Lachlan said my point
  1048. # [12:16] <cshelly> @MikeSmith: are the "semantics sections" sections 3 and 4?
  1049. # [12:16] <pimpbot> cshelly: Huh?
  1050. # [12:17] <fantasai> Hsivonen: On URIs what the spec does it takes the IRI RFC and defines the delta of what you need on top of the RFC.
  1051. # [12:17] <fantasai> ?: It states what rules you need to change in the RFC to parse
  1052. # [12:17] <karl> http://www.w3.org/TR/qaframe-spec/#implement-principle
  1053. # [12:17] <pimpbot> Title: QA Framework: Specification Guidelines (at www.w3.org)
  1054. # [12:17] <fantasai> Henry: Why do you need a delta at all?
  1055. # [12:17] <gsnedders> s/?/JR:/
  1056. # [12:17] <fantasai> Hsivonen: Suppose I'm writing a browser. THere's existing content out there that was written before the IRI spec
  1057. # [12:17] * anne thinks Henry should know that, doing LEIRI and all...
  1058. # [12:17] <fantasai> Hsivonen: If you have a form and you input characters, and the you submit that form using GET.
  1059. # [12:17] <Julian_Reschke> q+
  1060. # [12:17] * Zakim sees Hixie, Larry, DanC_lap, Julian_Reschke on the speaker queue
  1061. # [12:17] <MikeSmith> cshelly, basically just section 3
  1062. # [12:18] <Philip> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/syntax.html
  1063. # [12:18] <pimpbot> Title: 8 The HTML syntax HTML 5 (at www.whatwg.org)
  1064. # [12:18] <MikeSmith> cshelly, plus the first part of section 8
  1065. # [12:18] * dbaron thinks we don't need every last word in the minutes
  1066. # [12:18] <fantasai> Hsivonen: You encode the unicode characters in the form fields to bytes using the character encoding that the document itself was labelled as when it was parsed.
  1067. # [12:18] <Philip> MikeSmith, you still need to fix pimpbot entity handling :-p
  1068. # [12:18] <Philip> s//'s/
  1069. # [12:18] <fantasai> Hsovnen: And this is requried for backwards comptibility, otherwise servers will receive form submission that they didn't expect and they will break.
  1070. # [12:18] <Hixie> woohoo, nice work Philip
  1071. # [12:18] <fantasai> Hsivonen: there's another eq that flows from this one. If you have on an html page a URI that has a query string
  1072. # [12:18] <karl> http://www.w3.org/TR/spec-variability/#spec-cat-cop
  1073. # [12:18] <Hixie> timbl_, multipage spec version is updated to have better <title>s now
  1074. # [12:18] <fantasai> Hsovnen: You are linking to a orm submission sucha s the one I describe
  1075. # [12:18] <pimpbot> Title: Variability in Specifications (at www.w3.org)
  1076. # [12:19] * Quits: zcorpan (zcorpan@213.236.208.22) (Quit: zcorpan)
  1077. # [12:19] <karl> s/Hsovnen:/hsivonen/
  1078. # [12:19] <MikeSmith> Philip, patches welcome
  1079. # [12:19] <timbl_> If the form submission has non-ascii then you can't encodeit a la IRI ncodeing.
  1080. # [12:19] <karl> s/hsivonen/hsivonen:/
  1081. # [12:20] <fantasai> Hsivonen: The kind of string ath's in href, if it has non-ascii in it to get an ascii-only URI you need to use the ncoding of the document to encode those characters into bytes and then do the % encoding on those bytes and then give the result to the HTTP library
  1082. # [12:20] <timbl_> You have to use the encoding which the document itself was parsed with.
  1083. # [12:20] <anne> timbl_, it would be URI percent encoded afaict
  1084. # [12:20] <fantasai> Hsivonen: Sites are dpeending on this behavior. So browsers are.
  1085. # [12:20] <MikeSmith> q?
  1086. # [12:20] * Zakim sees Hixie, Larry, DanC_lap, Julian_Reschke on the speaker queue
  1087. # [12:20] <gsnedders> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/infrastructure.html#resolve-a-url
  1088. # [12:20] <pimpbot> Title: 2 Common infrastructure HTML 5 (at www.whatwg.org)
  1089. # [12:20] <fantasai> ?: We all know that and we are in total agreement that the spec needs to do that.
  1090. # [12:20] <gsnedders> That defines what hsivonen is summarizing
  1091. # [12:20] <fantasai> HsivoneN: So we've established that browsers need to do that.
  1092. # [12:20] <gsnedders> s/?/JR:/
  1093. # [12:20] <fantasai> ... I'm writing something else. The image .. of validator.nu
  1094. # [12:20] * Quits: JonathanJ (hollobit@81.253.46.45) (Ping timeout)
  1095. # [12:20] <fantasai> ... It's not a browser, but it deals with content browser deal with
  1096. # [12:21] <fantasai> ... I can't impelemtn the IRI and then find out later that it won't work
  1097. # [12:21] <noah> q?
  1098. # [12:21] * Zakim sees Hixie, Larry, DanC_lap, Julian_Reschke on the speaker queue
  1099. # [12:21] <fantasai> ... The RFC doesn't give me a spec for that
  1100. # [12:21] <gsnedders> s/impelemtn/implement/
  1101. # [12:21] * Quits: timbl_ (timbl@81.253.8.143) (Connection reset by peer)
  1102. # [12:21] <fantasai> ... The .. library that impelemtns 6 different profiles for IRIs,b ut doesn't impelment the most common profile -- href links in HTML
  1103. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> ?
  1104. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> q?
  1105. # [12:21] * Zakim sees Hixie, Larry, DanC_lap, Julian_Reschke on the speaker queue
  1106. # [12:21] <fantasai> ... ifIETF isn't providing then, then I want to have a spec that I can write to and not have to reverse-engineer anything.
  1107. # [12:21] <gsnedders> s/b ut/but/
  1108. # [12:21] * Joins: timbl (timbl@81.253.8.143)
  1109. # [12:21] <timeless> s/impelment/implement/
  1110. # [12:21] <gsnedders> s/ifIETF/if IETF/
  1111. # [12:21] <fantasai> ... I want to use the reverse-engineering that Hixie did
  1112. # [12:22] <fantasai> ... If that's not in the IETF, then it should be somewhere. HTMl5
  1113. # [12:22] * Quits: raphael (raphael.tr@81.253.36.165) (Ping timeout)
  1114. # [12:22] <fantasai> Mike: ... whether we should do that in a normative W3C REC
  1115. # [12:22] <noah> q+ to ask whether the issue is the use of the term URI or IRI for something that doesn't conform to the RFCs
  1116. # [12:22] * Zakim sees Hixie, Larry, DanC_lap, Julian_Reschke, noah on the speaker queue
  1117. # [12:22] <fantasai> Mike: we need to come back to what specifically we need to get to
  1118. # [12:22] <Julian_Reschke> all the stuff that Henri said is correct, except the conclusion that it needs to be done the was it is done right now
  1119. # [12:22] <ht> Henri, Stipulate that the RFC is broken, why not fix the RFC, instead of starting a turf war?
  1120. # [12:23] <fantasai> TV: The meta issue is that there'as an RFC for IRIs and browsers violate that IRI. Meta-issue is do we need to codify that violation fo the IRI spec?
  1121. # [12:23] * Joins: JonathanJ (hollobit@81.253.46.45)
  1122. # [12:23] <fantasai> Mike: So mabye we nee dot clarify that this is a big public issue that is open
  1123. # [12:23] <hsivonen> ht, the IETF wasn't cooperative when doing that was suggested
  1124. # [12:23] * DanC_lap q?
  1125. # [12:23] * Zakim sees Hixie, Larry, DanC_lap, Julian_Reschke, noah on the speaker queue
  1126. # [12:23] <fantasai> TV: The meta-issue here isn't aobut bits and bytes, but about whether this WG should be codifying existing violations of existing RFCs.
  1127. # [12:23] <fantasai> Tim: ... go into another RFC.
  1128. # [12:23] <hsivonen> q+
  1129. # [12:23] * Zakim sees Hixie, Larry, DanC_lap, Julian_Reschke, noah, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1130. # [12:23] <ht> Henri, did you raise it through the W3C-IETF liaison call?
  1131. # [12:23] <fantasai> ?: modularization, goes to IETF
  1132. # [12:24] <MikeSmith> ack Larry
  1133. # [12:24] * Zakim sees Hixie, DanC_lap, Julian_Reschke, noah, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1134. # [12:24] <DanC_lap> s/?:/MM:/
  1135. # [12:24] * Quits: timbl (timbl@81.253.8.143) (Connection reset by peer)
  1136. # [12:24] <fantasai> Larry: It's not clear to me that .. properly with in the domain of HTML to define how HTML define form submission
  1137. # [12:24] <fantasai> Larry: IETF doesn't say how HTML does form submission
  1138. # [12:24] <ht> s/../forms submission/
  1139. # [12:24] <fantasai> Larry: ... URI sepcification...
  1140. # [12:24] <DanC_lap> s/IETF doesn't/the IRI spec doesn't/
  1141. # [12:25] <fantasai> Lary: It may be that if you see a URI in a form and you have query string that you take that URI and then you transform that URI and then you do the submit on that URI
  1142. # [12:25] <MikeSmith> q?
  1143. # [12:25] * Zakim sees Hixie, DanC_lap, Julian_Reschke, noah, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1144. # [12:25] * Joins: timbl (timbl@81.253.8.143)
  1145. # [12:25] <fantasai> Larry: It's not changeing the IRI spec. It's doing some weird processing before.
  1146. # [12:25] * Quits: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  1147. # [12:25] <fantasai> Larry: It might solve the issue to rewrite the spec so to define this behavior as pre-processing the IRI string.
  1148. # [12:25] <timeless> s/changeing/changing/
  1149. # [12:25] <fantasai> Larry: ... and maybe submitting this back to IETF would also be a good idea.
  1150. # [12:26] <fantasai> Larry: back to authroing spec.
  1151. # [12:26] <timeless> s/authroing/authoring/
  1152. # [12:26] * Quits: timbl (timbl@81.253.8.143) (Connection reset by peer)
  1153. # [12:26] <fantasai> Larry: I think rather than thinking about browsers and authors, sicne most content today is created by other software.
  1154. # [12:26] * Joins: timbl (timbl@81.253.8.143)
  1155. # [12:26] <fantasai> Larry: You should use terms producers and consumers
  1156. # [12:26] <timeless> s/sicne/since/
  1157. # [12:26] <ht> HST likes Larry's suggestion, because it's consistent with the fact that IRIs are generic, but the query-string format we're talking about is 'http:' specific, I believe
  1158. # [12:26] <fantasai> Larry: I think that will help with the discussion.
  1159. # [12:26] <DanC_lap> (I disagree. authors are humans that need nice successive-elaboration documents.)
  1160. # [12:26] <MikeSmith> ack Hixie
  1161. # [12:26] * Zakim sees DanC_lap, Julian_Reschke, noah, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1162. # [12:26] <noah> q?
  1163. # [12:27] <fantasai> Larry: Because the engineers that write producing software are less sophsticated about this than browser implementors
  1164. # [12:27] * Zakim sees DanC_lap, Julian_Reschke, noah, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1165. # [12:27] <timeless> s/sophsticated/sophisticated/
  1166. # [12:27] <karl> what Larry just said is part of the list of class of products - http://www.w3.org/TR/spec-variability/#spec-cat-cop
  1167. # [12:27] <pimpbot> Title: Variability in Specifications (at www.w3.org)
  1168. # [12:27] <fantasai> Hixie: Before IRI section was drafted, I joined the relevant IETF group and asked if I could create a spec there
  1169. # [12:27] <fantasai> Hixie: they told me they weren't itnerested in doing this.
  1170. # [12:27] <fantasai> Hixie: So then I put this section into HTMl5.
  1171. # [12:27] <anne> interested parties weren't interested, nice
  1172. # [12:28] <fantasai> Hixie: If anyone wants to edit that section, I'm happy to pull it out into a separate spec.
  1173. # [12:28] <fantasai> Tim: ...
  1174. # [12:28] <fantasai> Tim: My understanding was that if you want what henri said.
  1175. # [12:28] <Hixie> q+
  1176. # [12:28] * Zakim sees DanC_lap, Julian_Reschke, noah, hsivonen, Hixie on the speaker queue
  1177. # [12:28] <timeless> s/itnerested/interested/
  1178. # [12:28] <fantasai> Tim: A string with non-ascii characters and then encodes it ...
  1179. # [12:28] <DanC_lap> (the algorithm takes not just a URI reference, but also the encoding fo of the document it came from.)
  1180. # [12:28] <timeless> s/HTMl5/HTML5/
  1181. # [12:28] <fantasai> Tim: That URI string willhave % in it, but if you interpret it as IRI ..
  1182. # [12:29] <fantasai> Tim: So it would be inappropriate to hand it over to IRI
  1183. # [12:29] <timeless> s/willhave/will have/
  1184. # [12:29] <fantasai> Anne: Isn't IRI a superset of URI?
  1185. # [12:29] <fantasai> Henry: Suppose your doc is encoded in 1252
  1186. # [12:29] * karl timbl could you summarize what you just said on IRC
  1187. # [12:29] <fantasai> Henry: Larry's suggestion is that the HTML spec says take that string, and recencode it in unicode and the it is a URI and you can apply the escaping algorithm to it
  1188. # [12:29] * Quits: mjs (mjs@69.181.43.20) (Connection reset by peer)
  1189. # [12:29] <fantasai> Hsivonen: You get the wrong URI if you do that.
  1190. # [12:29] <timeless> s/recencode/re-encode/
  1191. # [12:29] * Joins: mjs (mjs@69.181.43.20)
  1192. # [12:29] * timeless ??
  1193. # [12:29] * Quits: timbl (timbl@81.253.8.143) (Connection reset by peer)
  1194. # [12:30] * fantasai gives timeless a hug
  1195. # [12:30] * Joins: timbl_ (timbl@81.253.8.143)
  1196. # [12:30] <fantasai> Mike talks about lunch and AC meetings
  1197. # [12:30] * gsnedders could happily discuss this without lunch
  1198. # [12:30] <fantasai> Mike: we have a time constraint
  1199. # [12:30] * timeless needs lunch and possibly a flight to BCN :(
  1200. # [12:30] <DanC_lap> (Julian, we were close? close to what? is it something you could write on a line or two?)
  1201. # [12:30] <fantasai> Mike: Let's move beyond the specifics and talk about how we cna move forward , what can we do after today to continue the discussion.
  1202. # [12:30] * Quits: plh (plh@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  1203. # [12:30] <timeless> s/cna/can/
  1204. # [12:30] <gsnedders> q?
  1205. # [12:30] * Zakim sees DanC_lap, Julian_Reschke, noah, hsivonen, Hixie on the speaker queue
  1206. # [12:31] <fantasai> Mike: If everyboyd can agree to hang around for an extra 15 min that gives us time to get through the quue and try to talk about moving forward
  1207. # [12:31] <MikeSmith> q?
  1208. # [12:31] * Zakim sees DanC_lap, Julian_Reschke, noah, hsivonen, Hixie on the speaker queue
  1209. # [12:31] <MikeSmith> ack DanC_lap
  1210. # [12:31] <Zakim> DanC_lap, you wanted to note that after review of the URL stuff, I found it acceptable, but I haven't "sold" others. the IETF has right of review, and I think we have an
  1211. # [12:31] <DanC_lap> ack danc
  1212. # [12:31] <Zakim> ... unstable/paper consensus
  1213. # [12:31] * Zakim sees Julian_Reschke, noah, hsivonen, Hixie on the speaker queue
  1214. # [12:31] * Zakim sees Julian_Reschke, noah, hsivonen, Hixie on the speaker queue
  1215. # [12:31] * Quits: timbl_ (timbl@81.253.8.143) (Connection reset by peer)
  1216. # [12:31] <Julian_Reschke> for the record: Larrys proposal does work; we just need to use ASCII to encode the characters that we don't want the IRI processing to map the wrong way
  1217. # [12:32] <Julian_Reschke> q-
  1218. # [12:32] * Zakim sees noah, hsivonen, Hixie on the speaker queue
  1219. # [12:32] * Joins: timbl (timbl@81.253.8.143)
  1220. # [12:32] <timeless> s/Larrys/Larry's/
  1221. # [12:32] <MikeSmith> q/
  1222. # [12:32] <MikeSmith> q?
  1223. # [12:32] * Zakim sees noah, hsivonen, Hixie on the speaker queue
  1224. # [12:32] <fantasai> DanC: So the URL stuff, I figured out what it was saying and harumphed over it a lot and made my peace with it
  1225. # [12:32] <fantasai> Danc: But as go around to other people, the trick is.. since htis deals with URI and IRI stuff
  1226. # [12:32] <fantasai> DanC: It's good to get consensus with them
  1227. # [12:32] <fantasai> DanC: They say it would be ok if you rewrite it
  1228. # [12:32] <fantasai> DanC: With the technical design, I see no way out of this local minimum
  1229. # [12:33] <fantasai> DanC: People that are interested to take a whack at rewriting
  1230. # [12:33] <MikeSmith> ack noah
  1231. # [12:33] <Zakim> noah, you wanted to ask whether the issue is the use of the term URI or IRI for something that doesn't conform to the RFCs
  1232. # [12:33] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Hixie on the speaker queue
  1233. # [12:33] <fantasai> Noah: This may actually relate to paper consensus / durable consensus
  1234. # [12:33] <hsivonen> q-
  1235. # [12:33] * Zakim sees Hixie on the speaker queue
  1236. # [12:33] <fantasai> Noah: I may be misinformed, but I believe an issue is in the draft spec it refers to things as URIs that are not URIs, that are the input to this process or the output
  1237. # [12:33] * Quits: sicking (chatzilla@81.253.1.206) (Ping timeout)
  1238. # [12:34] <hsivonen> q+
  1239. # [12:34] * Zakim sees Hixie, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1240. # [12:34] <fantasai> Noah: If there are such thigns, and it contributes to stable discussion, to change that. It would be nice to have convenient terms
  1241. # [12:34] <Al> content negotiation for href; can we do server sniffing as a way to serve the
  1242. # [12:34] <fantasai> Noah: but whatever. Call it an HTML URI. Write your spec that way
  1243. # [12:34] <timeless> s/thigns/things/
  1244. # [12:34] * gsnedders posts some HURLs
  1245. # [12:34] <Al> .. serve the 'right' URI transcription as per IRI RFC?
  1246. # [12:34] <fantasai> Noah: Then in the informal guides you can call it whateve ryou want, URIs, URLs
  1247. # [12:34] <fantasai> Noah: I think being strict with the terminology will help
  1248. # [12:34] <Norm> q?
  1249. # [12:34] * Zakim sees Hixie, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1250. # [12:35] * dbaron agrees with Noah about avoiding assigning multiple meanings to an existing term
  1251. # [12:35] <timeless> s/whateve ryou/whatever you/
  1252. # [12:35] <gsnedders> s/whateve ryou/whatever you/
  1253. # [12:35] <MikeSmith> ack Hixie
  1254. # [12:35] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1255. # [12:35] <fantasai> Hixie: the term that's used in the spec is URL, but I agree it's a conflict. THe reason we used that
  1256. # [12:35] <fantasai> Hixie: even when we used URI or IRI, a lot of people said what the heck's a URI, or what's a IRI
  1257. # [12:36] <fantasai> Hixie: It was a compromise I came to by balancin the people who would be confused about this term vs that term
  1258. # [12:36] <fantasai> Hixie: The actual section, if you give it a valid URI or IRI it gives you a valid URI or IRI.
  1259. # [12:36] <timeless> s/balancin/balancing/
  1260. # [12:36] <fantasai> Hixie: the only thing it defines is how you handle invalid URIs and IRIs
  1261. # [12:36] <MikeSmith> ack hsivonen
  1262. # [12:36] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1263. # [12:36] <MikeSmith> q?
  1264. # [12:36] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1265. # [12:36] * Norm observes that the IRI spec will be expanded to include spaces in "Legacy Extended IRIs"
  1266. # [12:37] <fantasai> Hsivonen: What he said isn't exactly correct. It's correct if your document is encoded in UTF--8 or doesn't have query strings
  1267. # [12:37] * Quits: mjs (mjs@69.181.43.20) (Connection reset by peer)
  1268. # [12:37] <fantasai> Hsivonen: I don't think it's a good idea to give an ugly name.
  1269. # [12:37] <timeless> s/UTF--8/UTF-8/
  1270. # [12:37] <fantasai> Noah: no, come up with a nice name
  1271. # [12:37] * Joins: mjs (mjs@69.181.43.20)
  1272. # [12:37] <fantasai> Tim: I'm happy saying at the top of the document we redefine URL as used in this specification.
  1273. # [12:37] <fantasai> Philippe: We do this in a lot of specs that use URI where they really reference IRI.
  1274. # [12:38] <fantasai> Mike: So at a high level we're all here because we want to produce a W3C REC for HTML5
  1275. # [12:38] <Julian_Reschke> problem: there's also an important distinction between "URL" and "vaild URL".
  1276. # [12:38] <fantasai> argument about whether TAG can preven this, or whether it's only the Director
  1277. # [12:39] <fantasai> Mike: Anyway, W3C can block this if there are parts of the spec that conflict with Web Architecture and they're not ok with that.
  1278. # [12:39] * Norm regrets to hear the discussion expressed in such controversial terms
  1279. # [12:39] <anne> hsivonen, that's not exactly correct, UTF-16 is also fine
  1280. # [12:39] <fantasai> Mike: There are parts of the spec that it wouldnt' e possible to move forward unless we work through these issues.
  1281. # [12:39] <DanC_lap> (this seems like a negative way of saying: a goal of W3C is to get consensus on specs)
  1282. # [12:39] <karl> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1283. # [12:39] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-html-wg-minutes.html karl
  1284. # [12:39] <hsivonen> anne, true
  1285. # [12:39] <fantasai> Mike: We could wait until CR, or we could try to resolve these issues now.
  1286. # [12:39] <timeless> s/wouldnt' e/wouldn't be/
  1287. # [12:39] <noah> I don't think anyone prefers to defer the process of working through issues.
  1288. # [12:39] <fantasai> Mike: I've gotten a list of things ? plans to formally object to
  1289. # [12:40] * gsnedders wonders if the Director can send a formal objection seeming he is the person who decides whether to advanced publication despite them
  1290. # [12:40] * noah Roy Fielding?
  1291. # [12:40] <gsnedders> s/?/Roy Fielding/
  1292. # [12:40] <fantasai> Mike: It is to the benefit of all of us to try to get resolution sooner rather than later.
  1293. # [12:40] * karl slaps gsnedders with a big html trout
  1294. # [12:40] * smedero wonders if someone could fix the permissions on http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-html-wg-minutes.html and make it public
  1295. # [12:40] <pimpbot> Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 23 Oct 2008 (at www.w3.org)
  1296. # [12:40] * karl ;)
  1297. # [12:40] <olivier> rrsagent, make logs public
  1298. # [12:40] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, olivier
  1299. # [12:40] <olivier> rrsagent, draft minutes
  1300. # [12:40] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-html-wg-minutes.html olivier
  1301. # [12:40] <fantasai> Tim: Whether Rory or others are on the TAG has got nothing to do with how much we should listent o their opinions
  1302. # [12:40] <pimpbot> Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 23 Oct 2008 (at www.w3.org)
  1303. # [12:40] <smedero> ahh
  1304. # [12:40] * gsnedders karl: Sure, edge case :P
  1305. # [12:40] <smedero> olivier: thanks
  1306. # [12:41] <hsivonen> s/Rory/Roy/
  1307. # [12:41] * olivier smedero, no problem
  1308. # [12:41] <timeless> s/listent o/listen to/
  1309. # [12:41] <fantasai> Tim: .. nor should you look at this as what should we do to do the least procedurally to get this to rec. You wnat to look at what's going to make this the best spec.
  1310. # [12:41] <fantasai> Larry: Let's move away from thinking about personalities
  1311. # [12:41] <timeless> s/wnat/want/
  1312. # [12:41] <fantasai> Larry: And consider whether there are communities whose needs are not met by this specification.
  1313. # [12:41] <Hixie> q+
  1314. # [12:41] * Zakim sees Hixie on the speaker queue
  1315. # [12:41] <hsivonen> q+
  1316. # [12:41] * Zakim sees Hixie, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1317. # [12:42] <fantasai> Larry: mabye the HTML5 spec doesn't meet the need of the community that builds web servers
  1318. # [12:42] * karl wonders if we should close the queue
  1319. # [12:42] * timeless wants to know if we can discount him for breaking mime types on the web
  1320. # [12:42] <timeless> s/mabye/maybe/
  1321. # [12:42] <fantasai> Larry: I'm more representative of the parts fo my company that make authoring tools
  1322. # [12:42] <fantasai> Larry: ...
  1323. # [12:42] * Quits: timbl (timbl@81.253.8.143) (Connection reset by peer)
  1324. # [12:42] <timeless> s/fo/of/
  1325. # [12:42] <DanC_lap> (I think "needs" is a strong terms; there are comminities whose _wants_ are not satisifed; some of them get dissuaded by discussion tactics before they finish learning whether their actual needs are met.)
  1326. # [12:42] <Hixie> s/more/a poor/, i think
  1327. # [12:42] <fantasai> Larry: I look at it from the pov that there are some communities that have a lot less time to spend on this, but have requirements that might not be addressed as well
  1328. # [12:42] <Hixie> but i could be wrong
  1329. # [12:42] * Joins: timbl (timbl@81.253.8.143)
  1330. # [12:42] <fantasai> Mike apologizes for wording
  1331. # [12:43] <gsnedders> Hixie: You're right
  1332. # [12:43] <fantasai> Mike: .. I'm really glad Rory is paying attention
  1333. # [12:43] <fantasai> Mike: This work ahs been going on for 4 years
  1334. # [12:43] <hsivonen> s/Rory/Roy/
  1335. # [12:43] <fantasai> Mike: For a lot of that time people weren't paying attention
  1336. # [12:43] <fantasai> Mike: Now they are
  1337. # [12:43] * gsnedders feels young again
  1338. # [12:43] <Hixie> q?
  1339. # [12:43] * Zakim sees Hixie, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1340. # [12:44] <DanC_lap> TimBL notes development of HTML goes back 18 years and 6 months
  1341. # [12:44] <Hixie> q-
  1342. # [12:44] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1343. # [12:44] <fantasai> Mike: I think it's good that we have more people paying attention to this work now and we ant to make it possible for them to facilitate the discussion going forward.
  1344. # [12:44] <fantasai> Mike: So again, where are we going to continue this discussion? We have public-html
  1345. # [12:44] * Quits: timbl (timbl@81.253.8.143) (Connection reset by peer)
  1346. # [12:44] <fantasai> Mike: but only members can post to it
  1347. # [12:44] <DanC_lap> (only members of the wg can post to public-html? I don't think that's so.0
  1348. # [12:44] <DanC_lap> )
  1349. # [12:44] * Quits: seungyun (syl@81.253.6.64) (Quit: seungyun)
  1350. # [12:44] <timeless> s/so.0/so/
  1351. # [12:44] * Quits: JonathanJ (hollobit@81.253.46.45) (Quit: JonathanJ)
  1352. # [12:44] <fantasai> TV proposes copying public-html and www-tag
  1353. # [12:44] <gsnedders> DanC_lap: anyone can, but it's covered by the patent policy, so it's kinda non-obvious
  1354. # [12:44] <Hixie> i just wanted to mention that i work with people from the apache foundation, and that google also writes web servers, and i try my best to address their needs and desires
  1355. # [12:45] <Hixie> but no need to say that out loud i guess
  1356. # [12:45] <hsivonen> q-
  1357. # [12:45] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1358. # [12:45] <fantasai> Tim: modularization or URI stuff?
  1359. # [12:45] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@81.253.48.80) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  1360. # [12:45] <fantasai> Henry: There is a w3c ietf liaison call
  1361. # [12:45] <fantasai> Henry: Query strings in their particular formulation as they're used in HTML ...
  1362. # [12:46] <fantasai> Danc: Henry please, this is a technical question, right?
  1363. # [12:46] * gsnedders thinks DanC_lap wants lunch
  1364. # [12:46] * Philip posts to public-html from an email address that is not a member at all
  1365. # [12:46] <fantasai> Mike: I would like we don't leave today with hanging on where to coninue discussion?
  1366. # [12:46] <fantasai> Mike: How can we move forward with discussion with TAG with these issues?
  1367. # [12:46] <fantasai> Mike: Specific issues are authoring spec, and modularization -- splitting pieces out, and whether we should have normative definitions for some stuff liek URI
  1368. # [12:46] <anne> email message to uri@w3.org from Hixie: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2008Jun/0002.html
  1369. # [12:46] <pimpbot> Title: Error handling in URIs from Ian Hickson on 2008-06-24 (uri@w3.org from June 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  1370. # [12:47] <ht> HST was going to ask if there was agreement that the core of Henri Sivonen's summary only applies to http: URIs
  1371. # [12:47] <fantasai> ?: I would've thought it'd be up to the WG to discuss what they've just heard from TAG
  1372. # [12:47] * Joins: timbl (timbl@81.253.8.143)
  1373. # [12:47] <fantasai> ?: And sort out what they think they've heard, and what they think they should do about it
  1374. # [12:47] <ht> s/?:/MM:/
  1375. # [12:47] <DanC_lap> s/?:/MM:/
  1376. # [12:47] <fantasai> ?: and then tell the tag
  1377. # [12:47] <DanC_lap> fanasai, meet Murray Maloney. Murray, fantasai.
  1378. # [12:47] <ht> s/?:/MM:/
  1379. # [12:47] <fantasai> ?: and then the TAG can say tha'ts great
  1380. # [12:47] <ht> s/?:/MM:/
  1381. # [12:47] <fantasai> TV wants to CC www-tag
  1382. # [12:48] <fantasai> MM: Do you want to follow the whole discussion or just the conclusion?
  1383. # [12:48] * anne is slightly confused at this point, prolly due to lack of sleep
  1384. # [12:48] <fantasai> Mike: SO action is on me to bring this back tto HTMLWG and to communicate back to TAG what we want to do about these issues.
  1385. # [12:48] <fantasai> MM: What are the other three issues we wanted to talk about?
  1386. # [12:48] <gsnedders> s/SO/So/
  1387. # [12:48] <gsnedders> What email?
  1388. # [12:48] <fantasai> TV: They were listed in the email, we should talk on email
  1389. # [12:49] <fantasai> Mike lists the issues, someone please paste the email
  1390. # [12:49] * karl recommends Anne to stop hard drugs and Casino on French Riviera ;)
  1391. # [12:49] * Quits: Norm (ndw@81.253.31.184) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  1392. # [12:49] * Quits: timbl (timbl@81.253.8.143) (Connection reset by peer)
  1393. # [12:49] <fantasai> Mike: I'll just repeat what I just said, action item is on Chris and and me to bring back to the group
  1394. # [12:49] * anne but it's so much fun
  1395. # [12:49] * Quits: dino (dino@81.253.45.94) (Quit: dino)
  1396. # [12:49] <fantasai> Mike: come to resolution on what we plan to do and communicate back to the tag
  1397. # [12:49] * karl :)
  1398. # [12:50] * anne (was actually sick; for those taking this serious)
  1399. # [12:50] <fantasai> TIm: I'm wondering from TAG pov whether we should also ...
  1400. # [12:50] <gsnedders> The email anne mentioned earlier that's member only and therefore people like me can't actually see it?
  1401. # [12:50] <fantasai> Tim: from discusison last couple days, one thing ath comes up often when people see HTMl5 spec for first time
  1402. # [12:50] <DanC_lap> ACTION: Mike lead HTML WG to response to TAG discussion and report back to TAG
  1403. # [12:50] * @trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  1404. # [12:50] * RRSAgent records action 1
  1405. # [12:50] <@trackbot> Created ACTION-77 - Lead HTML WG to response to TAG discussion and report back to TAG [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2008-10-30].
  1406. # [12:50] <fantasai> Tim: they look at the spec and they say that's not what I mean by a spec.
  1407. # [12:50] <fantasai> Tim: I wonder whether the TAG could wirte something to point out there's two ways of doing this
  1408. # [12:51] <fantasai> Tim: E.g. TAG's done work on versioning.
  1409. # [12:51] <fantasai> Tim: ....
  1410. # [12:51] <timeless> s/wirte/write/
  1411. # [12:51] <fantasai> Tim: If the HTMl5 folks could say what we're making is one of these and point to the tAG's writeup
  1412. # [12:51] <gsnedders> s/HTMl/HTML/
  1413. # [12:52] <fantasai> Tim: Would working at the meta-level be helpful. Maybe useful to IETF and understanding HTML5 as opposed to language specs as traditionally written
  1414. # [12:52] <anne> s/tAG/TAG/
  1415. # [12:52] * Quits: noah (noah_mende@81.253.1.255) (Ping timeout)
  1416. # [12:52] <fantasai> Mike: Maye a summary from the TAG perspective on what we discussed today, HTat would be very helpful
  1417. # [12:52] * karl thinks that it looks like a work which could have been done by the belated QA Activity
  1418. # [12:52] <fantasai> TV: It looks like Tim signed up to write such a thing. :)
  1419. # [12:52] <anne> s/HTat/that/
  1420. # [12:52] <fantasai> Tim: I'll nominally take an action item.
  1421. # [12:53] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Where dwelt Ymir, or wherein did he find sustenance?)
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  1423. # [12:53] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@81.253.43.215) (Quit: gsnedders)
  1424. # [12:53] <fantasai> ACTION: TimBL write up a description of the kind of spec HTMLWG is writing for TAG
  1425. # [12:53] * Quits: Norbert (51fd2b1c@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
  1426. # [12:53] * @trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  1427. # [12:53] * RRSAgent records action 2
  1428. # [12:53] <@trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - TimBL
  1429. # [12:53] * Parts: najib (chatzilla@81.253.63.33)
  1430. # [12:53] <fantasai> BREAK FOR LUNCH!
  1431. # [12:53] <fantasai> yay
  1432. # [12:53] <fantasai> bye everyone
  1433. # [12:53] * timeless wonders if someone is going to ask rrsagent to make minutes
  1434. # [12:53] <fantasai> RRSAgent: make logs public
  1435. # [12:53] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, fantasai
  1436. # [12:53] <fantasai> RRSAgent: make minutes
  1437. # [12:53] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-html-wg-minutes.html fantasai
  1438. # [12:53] <pimpbot> Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 23 Oct 2008 (at www.w3.org)
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  1472. # [14:10] <gsnedders> hiho
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  1483. # [14:15] <timbl> ericp?
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  1493. # [14:16] <karl> ac
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  1496. # [14:17] <timbl> phenny, tell ericP Does your query pipeline system support Sparql DESCRIBE ?
  1497. # [14:17] * DanC_lap thinks phenny lives in #swig
  1498. # [14:17] * dom thinks that ericP does too
  1499. # [14:17] <gsnedders> Do we have a scribe?
  1500. # [14:17] <Lachy> I can
  1501. # [14:17] <Lachy> try
  1502. # [14:17] <timeless> ScribeNick: Lachy
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  1504. # [14:18] * DanC_lap forgets which person goes by timeless in irc
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  1506. # [14:19] * dom thinks first name is Josh, affiliation Nokia
  1507. # [14:19] * timeless nods
  1508. # [14:19] * dom didn't catch his name during TP day yesterday
  1509. # [14:19] * Joins: cshelly (51fd18f1@128.30.52.43)
  1510. # [14:19] * timeless is Josh Soref
  1511. # [14:19] * timeless contributes to mozilla.org
  1512. # [14:19] <Lachy> Steven: I can find someone to say something about Forms
  1513. # [14:19] * dom thought timeless made a point of remaining anonymous till yesterday :)
  1514. # [14:19] * timeless does usually
  1515. # [14:19] <Lachy> MikeSmith, The Most significant change is the integration of web forms 2 into current draft
  1516. # [14:19] <Steeeven> Forms=arcchitectural consistency part
  1517. # [14:20] <Steeeven> s/cc/c/
  1518. # [14:20] <gsnedders> s/Most/most/
  1519. # [14:20] <Steeeven> there is a separate task force for that
  1520. # [14:20] <oedipus> no longer - expired in July 2008
  1521. # [14:20] <Lachy> Hixie, I'm still responding to feedback. Around start of sept, I started merging HTML4 forms and WF2 changes into HTML5
  1522. # [14:20] <Lachy> going through old feedback since 2004
  1523. # [14:20] <myakura> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/forms.html
  1524. # [14:20] * Joins: anne (annevk@81.253.25.234)
  1525. # [14:20] <pimpbot> Title: 4.10 Forms HTML 5 (at www.whatwg.org)
  1526. # [14:20] <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/Forms
  1527. # [14:20] <pimpbot> Title: PF/XTech/HTML5/Forms - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
  1528. # [14:21] <Lachy> Hixie: Not everything made it through, e.g. repetition model
  1529. # [14:21] * oedipus who or what is pimpbot?
  1530. # [14:21] * Parts: Yves (ylafon@128.30.52.30)
  1531. # [14:21] <Lachy> MikeSmith: so that's kind of the last missing semantics that was missing?
  1532. # [14:21] * timeless notes *** CTCP VERSION reply from pimpbot: Supybot 0.83.3
  1533. # [14:21] <Lachy> Hixie: Aria is the other
  1534. # [14:21] * gsnedders points out to Lachy that continuations of current speaker are meant to start with ...
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  1536. # [14:21] <smedero> oedipus: MikeSmith setup pimpbot
  1537. # [14:22] <karl> s/Hixie, I'm still /Hixie: I'm still /
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  1539. # [14:22] * Lachy we can fix the logs later, gsnedders
  1540. # [14:22] <oedipus> smdero, i supposed i should try pimpbot.org or something
  1541. # [14:22] <Lachy> MikeSmith: We need to prepare a summary of what's changed
  1542. # [14:22] * gsnedders Lachy: fixing everything said is a lot of work
  1543. # [14:22] * oedipus sorry smedero, didn't mean to misspell your name
  1544. # [14:22] <gsnedders> Lachy: colons and ...
  1545. # [14:22] <Lachy> ... Doesn't need to be as detailed as the last time
  1546. # [14:23] <karl> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1547. # [14:23] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-html-wg-minutes.html karl
  1548. # [14:23] <pimpbot> Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 23 Oct 2008 (at www.w3.org)
  1549. # [14:23] <Lachy> ... We need something a little less detailed.
  1550. # [14:23] <Lachy> ... anne put together a bulleted list of the changes, but we need something a bit between that and the detailed change list
  1551. # [14:23] <Lachy> ... THe forms stuff was integrated based on the WG survey
  1552. # [14:23] <Lachy> ... We had forms TF for a year. The TF did not do anything
  1553. # [14:23] <timeless> s/THe/The/
  1554. # [14:24] <MichaelC> meeting: HTML WG
  1555. # [14:24] <oedipus> meeting: HTML face2face TPAC 2008 Day 1
  1556. # [14:24] * Joins: alexmog (alexmog@81.253.26.25)
  1557. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> q?
  1558. # [14:24] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1559. # [14:24] <Lachy> Anybody else have any questions or concerns?
  1560. # [14:24] <karl> Meeting: HTML WG - TPAC - October 2008
  1561. # [14:25] <DanC_lap> (anybody got a pointer to that msg?)
  1562. # [14:25] <karl> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1563. # [14:25] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-html-wg-minutes.html karl
  1564. # [14:25] <pimpbot> Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 23 Oct 2008 (at www.w3.org)
  1565. # [14:25] <Lachy> Nick: Someone sent a n email with some question regarding the integration of forms into html5 was sent to the forms tf list, but no-one responded
  1566. # [14:25] <timeless> s/a n/an/
  1567. # [14:25] * oedipus is it possible to set pimpbot to something less verbose
  1568. # [14:25] <Lachy> MikeSmith: Please find a pointer to that message
  1569. # [14:26] <Lachy> ... We also asked for feedback on the WF2 proposal from the Forms WG, but they didn't provide any
  1570. # [14:26] * Joins: r12a (rishida@81.253.27.10)
  1571. # [14:26] <anne> might be http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2008Jun/0000.html
  1572. # [14:26] <pimpbot> Title: Re: Status update from Keith Wells on 2008-06-02 (public-forms-tf@w3.org from June 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  1573. # [14:26] * timeless points to http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:jJ-XfgWYv3gJ:supybot.com/documentation+documentation+site:supybot.com&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&client=firefox-a
  1574. # [14:26] <pimpbot> Title: Documentation Supybot Website (at 216.239.59.104)
  1575. # [14:26] * Joins: JonathanJ (hollobit@81.253.22.238)
  1576. # [14:26] * timeless kicks pimpbot
  1577. # [14:26] <MikeSmith> q?
  1578. # [14:26] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1579. # [14:27] <Lachy> Charlie: [talking about Ubiquity XForms on Google code]
  1580. # [14:27] <oedipus> my comments to the HTML WG on the forms survey & forms in general: http://esw.w3.org/topic/GregoryRosmaita/FormsFeedback2008-07
  1581. # [14:27] <anne> http://code.google.com/p/ubiquity-xforms/
  1582. # [14:27] <pimpbot> Title: GregoryRosmaita/FormsFeedback2008-07 - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
  1583. # [14:27] <pimpbot> Title: ubiquity-xforms - Google Code (at code.google.com)
  1584. # [14:27] <Lachy> ... The main thing is to take some of the attribues on the data model and project those up to the controlsw.
  1585. # [14:27] <timeless> s/controlsw/controls/
  1586. # [14:27] <Lachy> s/controlsw/controls/
  1587. # [14:28] * Joins: nick (nvdbleek@81.253.27.115)
  1588. # [14:28] <Lachy> ??: Is the entire WF2 spec taken into HTML5?
  1589. # [14:29] <fantasai> s/??/Kai/
  1590. # [14:29] <timeless> s/??/Kai Scheppe/
  1591. # [14:29] <Lachy> Hixie: About half made it in. Some sections dropped: Repetition model, forms pre-seeding, XML serialisation mode,
  1592. # [14:29] * fantasai will leave timeless alone now :)
  1593. # [14:29] <MikeSmith> q?
  1594. # [14:29] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1595. # [14:29] <Lachy> ... a few other minor issues as well
  1596. # [14:29] * gsnedders fantasai: myself and timeless were fighting over correcting you
  1597. # [14:30] <Lachy> ... mostly in response to implementer feedback
  1598. # [14:30] <Hixie> (or implementor apathy)
  1599. # [14:30] <anne> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/notes has an informative list at the end of features from WF2 not included in the spec
  1600. # [14:30] <Lachy> MikeSmith: we have public-html-comments@w3.org
  1601. # [14:30] <Lachy> ... anyone can post to that
  1602. # [14:30] <Lachy> ... public-html@w3.org is intended for the WG, but anyone can still post to it
  1603. # [14:30] <DanC_lap> comments archive: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-comments/
  1604. # [14:30] <pimpbot> Title: public-html-comments@w3.org Mail Archives (at lists.w3.org)
  1605. # [14:31] * Joins: CharlieWiecha (CharlieWie@81.253.27.223)
  1606. # [14:32] * Quits: alexmog (alexmog@81.253.26.25) (Ping timeout)
  1607. # [14:32] * Joins: alexmog (alexmog@81.253.26.25)
  1608. # [14:32] <Lachy> MikeSmith: The other thing is that the group is open to anyone
  1609. # [14:33] <Lachy> ... Anyone can be an Invited Expert
  1610. # [14:33] <CharlieWiecha> Link to Forms-A internal working document on attribute-oriented forms notation, i.e. non-MVC authoring: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/specs/XForms1.2/modules/streamlined/index-all.html
  1611. # [14:33] <Lachy> ... Need to agree to the patent policy
  1612. # [14:33] <pimpbot> Title: Forms-A: Streamlined Expression of Data-Rich Web Applications (at www.w3.org)
  1613. # [14:33] <DanC_lap> (for reference, this is a patent policy FAQ: http://www.w3.org/2003/12/22-pp-faq.html#lists Can non-participants subscribe to a mailing list of a Working Group under the Patent Policy? )
  1614. # [14:33] <pimpbot> Title: Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) about the W3C Patent Policy (at www.w3.org)
  1615. # [14:33] <PIon> + MathML would be happy to know what happened in this morning's discussion?
  1616. # [14:33] <Lachy> ... Any other issues?
  1617. # [14:33] <nick> Last e-mail from Keith http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2008Jun/0000.html
  1618. # [14:33] <pimpbot> Title: Re: Status update from Keith Wells on 2008-06-02 (public-forms-tf@w3.org from June 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  1619. # [14:33] <Lachy> Neil: We had a discussion about questions we had
  1620. # [14:33] <nick> e-mail I sent on 22th of May http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2008May/0003.html
  1621. # [14:33] <pimpbot> Title: Re: Status update from Nick_Van_den_Bleekeninventivegroup.com on 2008-05-22 (public-forms-tf@w3.org from May 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  1622. # [14:34] <Lachy> ... The first issue is namespaces
  1623. # [14:34] <hsivonen> q+
  1624. # [14:34] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1625. # [14:34] <Lachy> ... If you have a namespace attribute, what happens to it in the DOM?
  1626. # [14:35] <Lachy> Hixie: This may change, but the current proposal is that if you have MathML in the document, the xmlns attribute will be in the DOM, but must have mathml namespace
  1627. # [14:35] <Lachy> ... the DOM nodes will be in MathML namespace
  1628. # [14:35] <CharlieWiecha> LInk to Forms-A document with controls in the XForms namespace: http://ubiquity-xforms.googlecode.com/svn/branches/webforms-a/_samples/Loan/xforms-webforms-a-loan.html
  1629. # [14:35] <Lachy> Neil: Often people put in private attributes
  1630. # [14:35] <CharlieWiecha> The above form should load (FF3 at least) directly from SVN
  1631. # [14:35] * Quits: alexmog (alexmog@81.253.26.25) (Ping timeout)
  1632. # [14:35] * Quits: Joshue (Joshue@81.253.25.94) (Quit: Quitting!)
  1633. # [14:35] <Lachy> Hixie: The non-mathml stuff will appear in no namespace, non-mathml xmlns declarations will be ignored
  1634. # [14:36] <hsivonen> q?
  1635. # [14:36] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1636. # [14:36] <Lachy> Hixie: There are constraints with what we can do with namespaces.
  1637. # [14:36] <CharlieWiecha> Form in HTML namespace (though this one seems to have trouble loading, pls use as syntax example for now): http://ubiquity-xforms.googlecode.com/svn/branches/webforms-a/_samples/Loan/webforms-a-loan.html
  1638. # [14:36] <DanC_lap> <math> <special:stuff /> </math> <-- special:stuff goes in the mathml namespace, if I'm following
  1639. # [14:36] <Lachy> ... main aim is to support MathML, not other proprietary things
  1640. # [14:36] * Quits: Adam (Adam@81.253.23.137) (Quit: The computer fell asleep)
  1641. # [14:37] <gsnedders> DanC_lap: correct
  1642. # [14:37] <Lachy> Neil: There is a problem related to Open Math
  1643. # [14:37] <MikeSmith> ack hsivonen
  1644. # [14:37] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1645. # [14:37] <gsnedders> DanC_lap: with a localName of special:stuff
  1646. # [14:37] <Lachy> hsivonen: open math is not supported
  1647. # [14:37] <DanC_lap> <math> <mx special:attr="abc"> </math> <-- special:attr goes in no namespace, if I'm following
  1648. # [14:37] <gsnedders> DanC_lap: Again, correct
  1649. # [14:38] <Lachy> Neil: The issue is not the browser support, but the ability to copy-paste and maintain the semantics
  1650. # [14:38] <Lachy> hsivonen: non-mathml content will end up in no namespace
  1651. # [14:38] <anne> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tree-construction.html#parsing-main-inforeign has details
  1652. # [14:38] <pimpbot> Title: 8.2.5 Tree construction HTML 5 (at www.whatwg.org)
  1653. # [14:39] <Lachy> Hixie: Because of the constraints, if we wanted to support open math, we would have to explicitly include that in the spec
  1654. # [14:39] <DanC_lap> hmm... that last example with presentation/semantics/content ... I'd like to see an example. I don't think I can cook one up
  1655. # [14:39] <Lachy> ... The line was drawn at HTML, MathML and SVG
  1656. # [14:39] <Lachy> Neil: People want to style the text they have inside <mtext>
  1657. # [14:39] <anne> hsivonen, it seems "semantics" is not supported
  1658. # [14:39] <Lachy> ... What are the rules inside of <mtext> and you encounter an HTML element, when does it revert to MathML ns?
  1659. # [14:39] <anne> hsivonen, that is, what you're saying about semantics is not what happens
  1660. # [14:40] <anne> hsivonen, it's true for <mtext> though
  1661. # [14:40] <MikeSmith> q?
  1662. # [14:40] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1663. # [14:40] <Lachy> Hixie: <mglyph> will be in the mathml ns, other things will be assumed to be HTML
  1664. # [14:40] <MoZ> q?
  1665. # [14:40] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1666. # [14:40] <MoZ> q+
  1667. # [14:40] * Zakim sees MoZ on the speaker queue
  1668. # [14:40] <Lachy> ... [other technical details]
  1669. # [14:40] <hsivonen> anne, sorry. it's <semantics-xml>
  1670. # [14:40] <Lachy> Neil: there is legacy mathml designed to work in IE with plugin
  1671. # [14:40] <Lachy> ... I sent an email about a year ago, what's the status of dealing with this legacy?
  1672. # [14:40] <anne> hsivonen, doesn't change anything unless I'm missing something in the parsing algorithm
  1673. # [14:41] <Lachy> Hixie: if there are no prefixes, it should just work
  1674. # [14:41] <Lachy> Neil: IE requires teh prefix
  1675. # [14:41] <timeless> s/teh/the/
  1676. # [14:41] <Lachy> hsivonen: That doesn't seem to match my testing with MPlayer
  1677. # [14:41] * timeless ? mplayer??
  1678. # [14:41] * CWilso MathPlayer, I think
  1679. # [14:41] <Lachy> Neil: The way IE binds it is when the namespace is seen, invoke the activex control
  1680. # [14:42] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Math/DOM/
  1681. # [14:42] <pimpbot> Title: The MathML DOM Bindings (at www.w3.org)
  1682. # [14:42] <gsnedders> s/MPlayer/MathPlayer/
  1683. # [14:42] <anne> timeless, http://www.dessci.com/getmp
  1684. # [14:42] <pimpbot> Title: MathPlayer: Download and Installation (at www.dessci.com)
  1685. # [14:42] * Joins: marcos (marcos@81.253.29.239)
  1686. # [14:42] <Lachy> ... [saying the prefix is needed for IE]
  1687. # [14:42] * Joins: jallan_ (jallan@81.253.29.228)
  1688. # [14:42] * jallan_ is now known as jallan
  1689. # [14:42] <Lachy> ... There are real websites that have used prefixes
  1690. # [14:42] * timeless notes that MPlayer usually means something quite different, and that's a namespace violation :)
  1691. # [14:42] <Lachy> Hixie: We could explicitly support it, but it'd be weird
  1692. # [14:42] * Joins: Joshue (Joshue@81.253.29.255)
  1693. # [14:43] <Lachy> Neil: We need to warn content sites that prefixes will go away in the future
  1694. # [14:43] <Lachy> MikeSmith: We have time for SVG WG tomorrow
  1695. # [14:43] <Lachy> ... you're welcome to be there for that
  1696. # [14:43] <Lachy> Neil: Everything else looks great
  1697. # [14:43] <MoZ> q-
  1698. # [14:43] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1699. # [14:43] <Lachy> Harry: GRDDL WG
  1700. # [14:44] * anne ... timeless, go stand in the corner for mentioning namespaces :p
  1701. # [14:44] * Joins: Adam (Adam@81.253.30.75)
  1702. # [14:44] <Lachy> ... People are happy with the ability to get the browsers to implement a singular DOM across real world HTML
  1703. # [14:44] <MikeSmith> q?
  1704. # [14:44] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1705. # [14:44] <Lachy> ... From the perspective of GRDDL, the issues are related
  1706. # [14:44] <Lachy> ... The fundamental problem is thw ehn the WGs were chartered, HTML5 wasn't on our radar
  1707. # [14:44] <Lachy> ... We designed with compat with XHTML
  1708. # [14:44] * timeless looks for a url for grddl ?
  1709. # [14:45] <myakura> http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl
  1710. # [14:45] * Philip suggests timeless uses the URL http://google.com :-p
  1711. # [14:45] <pimpbot> Title: Gleaning Resource Descriptions from Dialects of Languages (GRDDL) (at www.w3.org)
  1712. # [14:45] <pimpbot> Title: Google (at google.com)
  1713. # [14:45] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/
  1714. # [14:45] <Lachy> ... We want to figure out how our technology remain compatible with HTML?
  1715. # [14:45] <pimpbot> Title: W3C GRDDL Working Group (at www.w3.org)
  1716. # [14:45] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl-primer/
  1717. # [14:45] <pimpbot> Title: GRDDL Primer (at www.w3.org)
  1718. # [14:45] <Lachy> ... Seeing mild uptake with Drupal
  1719. # [14:45] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl-tests/
  1720. # [14:45] <pimpbot> Title: GRDDL Test Cases (at www.w3.org)
  1721. # [14:45] <Lachy> ... The first thing to talk about is <link rel="">
  1722. # [14:46] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2007/08/grddl/
  1723. # [14:46] <pimpbot> Title: W3C GRDDL service (at www.w3.org)
  1724. # [14:46] <Lachy> ... GRDDL uses it. Takes a DOM, gives you a graph
  1725. # [14:46] <Lachy> ... Also a concern of POWDER WG
  1726. # [14:46] <hsivonen> q+
  1727. # [14:46] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1728. # [14:46] <Lachy> ... If you're a new WG, and want to have somehting like a stylesheet, we want to know how
  1729. # [14:46] * Quits: PIon (51fd18d0@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
  1730. # [14:46] <timeless> s/somehting/something/
  1731. # [14:46] <Lachy> ... the problems are with the values that are allowed in the rel attr
  1732. # [14:47] * Joins: plh (plh@128.30.52.28)
  1733. # [14:48] * Quits: MoZ (chatzilla@81.253.25.1) (Ping timeout)
  1734. # [14:48] <DanC_lap> (since we're in france, we shouldn't treat "bis" as some secret code. it's french for 2nd, yes?)
  1735. # [14:48] * Quits: Steeeven (user@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  1736. # [14:48] <Lachy> ... We need a rel value registry
  1737. # [14:48] <DanC_lap> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/27
  1738. # [14:48] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-27 - HTML Issue Tracking Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  1739. # [14:49] <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/AbbrAndInitialisms#head-2df84342c22a995e35980b4adb3b3573040f8c2d
  1740. # [14:49] <pimpbot> Title: HTML/AbbrAndInitialisms - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
  1741. # [14:49] <Lachy> ... Could try to combine the list for HTML and Atom and other specs
  1742. # [14:49] <DanC_lap> bummer... tracker doesn't use the issue name for the title. it's rel-ownership @rel value ownership, registry consideration
  1743. # [14:49] <oedipus> proposed use of RDF-type resource for reuse site-wide for abbreviated forms
  1744. # [14:49] <timeless> q?
  1745. # [14:49] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1746. # [14:49] <hsivonen> q-
  1747. # [14:49] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1748. # [14:50] <Hixie> DanC_lap: "bis" is a fancy way of saying "again", i believe
  1749. # [14:50] <Hixie> (in french)
  1750. # [14:50] <Lachy> hsivonen: the Atom, XHTML2 and HTML5 all have ways of using full URIs as rel values, but they do it differently
  1751. # [14:50] <DanC_lap> ok
  1752. # [14:50] <Julian_Reschke> q+
  1753. # [14:50] * Zakim sees Julian_Reschke on the speaker queue
  1754. # [14:50] <Lachy> ... GRDDL can go the the WHATWG wiki and document their rel values
  1755. # [14:50] <gsnedders> DanC_lap: second is deuxieme
  1756. # [14:50] <Lachy> ... You can use a full URI, but there are limitations that tokens are compared case sensitively
  1757. # [14:51] * Joins: Steeeven (user@128.30.52.30)
  1758. # [14:51] <Lachy> Phil: [Chair for POWDER] I talked with Mark Nottingham
  1759. # [14:51] <DanC_lap> (Bis, a musical term and a little-used Interlingua word meaning "encore", "again", or "twice" -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BIS )
  1760. # [14:51] <pimpbot> Title: BIS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at en.wikipedia.org)
  1761. # [14:51] <Lachy> ... The WHATWG wiki is one possible way. THe IANA solution is another
  1762. # [14:51] <Lachy> s/THe/The/
  1763. # [14:51] <Lachy> ... Microformats has another
  1764. # [14:51] * dom bis is latine, btw, not specifically French
  1765. # [14:51] <Lachy> ... Everone does it differently. Can we have one
  1766. # [14:52] <Lachy> I don't think it should be one groups wiki, I don't think it should be difficult to use
  1767. # [14:52] <Lachy> ... Need some sort of control over it
  1768. # [14:52] <gsnedders> s/Everone/Everyone/
  1769. # [14:52] <Steeeven> RDFa allows a CURIE
  1770. # [14:52] <anne> From Murray Maloney: http://xml.coverpages.org/maloneyRelationships.html
  1771. # [14:52] <pimpbot> Title: Hypertext links in HTML (at xml.coverpages.org)
  1772. # [14:52] * Joins: asmith (asmith@81.253.31.113)
  1773. # [14:52] <oedipus> why not in w3.org space?
  1774. # [14:52] <Lachy> ... I believe that W3C would be willing to operate such a registry
  1775. # [14:53] * timeless is getting tired and distracted and yields corrections to gsnedders
  1776. # [14:53] * Joins: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217)
  1777. # [14:53] * plh notes that mnot is awake
  1778. # [14:53] * gsnedders timeless shouldn't because I won't get them all
  1779. # [14:53] <Lachy> ... If it is possible to come to concensus, then we could take it the appropriate people and move forward
  1780. # [14:53] * plh but busy on the phone
  1781. # [14:53] <timeless> s/it the/it to the/
  1782. # [14:53] <fantasai> ... it could be a wiki at w3.org
  1783. # [14:54] <gsnedders> s/concensus/consensus/
  1784. # [14:54] <fantasai> ... it would have to be in agreement with IANA / IETF
  1785. # [14:54] <Lachy> MikeSmith: We're not chartered as a WG to make binding decisions at face to face meetings
  1786. # [14:54] <MikeSmith> q?
  1787. # [14:54] * Zakim sees Julian_Reschke on the speaker queue
  1788. # [14:54] <hsivonen> q+
  1789. # [14:54] * Zakim sees Julian_Reschke, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1790. # [14:54] <Lachy> ... But we could discuss what would be the best way to proceed
  1791. # [14:54] <timeless> ack Julian_Reschke
  1792. # [14:54] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1793. # [14:54] <Lachy> Julain: The goal from Mark's draft is to unify the meanings of relationship names
  1794. # [14:55] <Lachy> ... Needs to be more formal than a wiki, but I'm not going to defend IANA's registry
  1795. # [14:55] <CWilso> s/Julain/Julian
  1796. # [14:55] <plh> q+
  1797. # [14:55] * Zakim sees hsivonen, plh on the speaker queue
  1798. # [14:55] <timeless> s/Julain/Julian/
  1799. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> ack hsivonen
  1800. # [14:55] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
  1801. # [14:55] <Lachy> hsivonen: I'd be ok with sharing the short values with Atom
  1802. # [14:55] * Joins: hhalpin (hhalpin@81.253.31.254)
  1803. # [14:55] * Joins: oshani (oshanis@128.30.7.14)
  1804. # [14:55] <Lachy> ... with the caveat that I haven't reviewed the Atom values to check for conflicts
  1805. # [14:56] * DanC_lap realizes, speaking of registries and institutions of long standing, that he hasn't told this group that W3C cut me to 50% and it's not clear what I'll be doing after 31 Jan 2009
  1806. # [14:56] <Lachy> ... If you use a short name, then you compare it ASCII-case-insensitively and try to get them on the same list in Atom and HTML
  1807. # [14:56] <plh> q+ to mention http://www.w3.org/2005/04/xpointer-schemes/
  1808. # [14:56] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
  1809. # [14:56] <pimpbot> Title: XPointer Registry (at www.w3.org)
  1810. # [14:56] * oedipus playing your guitar more, DanC
  1811. # [14:56] <smedero> DanC_lap: :-/
  1812. # [14:56] * gsnedders notes the odd timing of DanC_lap saying that
  1813. # [14:56] <Lachy> ... I can understand why w3.org is preferred over w3.org
  1814. # [14:56] <Lachy> ... I can understand why w3.org is preferred over whatwg.org
  1815. # [14:56] <gsnedders> s/... I can understand why w3.org is preferred over w3.org//
  1816. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> q?
  1817. # [14:57] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
  1818. # [14:57] * Philip can understand too: it's shorter and therefore easier to type
  1819. # [14:57] * DanC_lap can't imagine timing that wouldn't be odd
  1820. # [14:57] <hhalpin> +1 on Henri's algorithm for comparison
  1821. # [14:57] * Lachy hsivonen can you summaries your point in IRC?
  1822. # [14:57] <hhalpin> q+
  1823. # [14:57] * Zakim sees plh, hhalpin on the speaker queue
  1824. # [14:57] * MichaelC 's head spun on that last one...
  1825. # [14:57] <DanC_lap> xpointer registry. boo. hiss. I'm _still_ against registries at W3C.
  1826. # [14:57] * myakura wonders what mark's draft is
  1827. # [14:58] <Lachy> Philipe: Traditionally W3 have been against registrys, but we have one
  1828. # [14:58] <Steeeven> +1 to DanC
  1829. # [14:58] * Joins: MoZ (chatzilla@81.253.55.124)
  1830. # [14:58] <Lachy> ... there's a process involving mailing some list and waiting a couple of weeks
  1831. # [14:58] <Julian_Reschke> I don't care a lot where the registry lives, at long as it is one, not just a Wiki.
  1832. # [14:58] <Lachy> ... if no-one objects, it's yours
  1833. # [14:58] <MikeSmith> ack hhalpin
  1834. # [14:58] * Joins: Al (alfredsgil@81.253.29.223)
  1835. # [14:58] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
  1836. # [14:59] <Julian_Reschke> q+
  1837. # [14:59] * Zakim sees plh, Julian_Reschke on the speaker queue
  1838. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> ack plh
  1839. # [14:59] <Zakim> plh, you wanted to mention http://www.w3.org/2005/04/xpointer-schemes/
  1840. # [14:59] <pimpbot> Title: XPointer Registry (at www.w3.org)
  1841. # [14:59] * Zakim sees Julian_Reschke on the speaker queue
  1842. # [14:59] * Quits: Joshue (Joshue@81.253.29.255) (Quit: Computer goes to sleep!)
  1843. # [14:59] <oedipus> there should be one central place to which people can turn, and w3.org is the most logical and shortest
  1844. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> q+ Larry
  1845. # [14:59] * Zakim sees Julian_Reschke, Larry on the speaker queue
  1846. # [14:59] <DanC_lap> issue-27: note also http://www.w3.org/2005/04/xpointer-schemes/
  1847. # [14:59] * @trackbot attempting to add a note to ISSUE-27.
  1848. # [14:59] <@trackbot> ISSUE-27 @rel value ownership, registry consideration notes added
  1849. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> q+ Murray
  1850. # [14:59] * Zakim sees Julian_Reschke, Larry, Murray on the speaker queue
  1851. # [14:59] <pimpbot> Title: XPointer Registry (at www.w3.org)
  1852. # [14:59] <Lachy> Harry: There's one registry to rule them all approach, or different registries. We don't care too much as long as standards people know where to go and who to ask to update it
  1853. # [14:59] <plh> s/Philipe/Philippe/
  1854. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> q- Larry
  1855. # [14:59] * Zakim sees Julian_Reschke, Murray on the speaker queue
  1856. # [15:00] <Lachy> ... IANA might make it harder. If it's W3C, then I'm ok with a wiki, or a human edited web page, with requests sent and responded to by email
  1857. # [15:00] <gsnedders> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nottingham-http-link-header-02.txt — Mark Nottingham's Link header draft (I don't think there's been a link yet)
  1858. # [15:00] * Quits: JonathanJ (hollobit@81.253.22.238) (Ping timeout)
  1859. # [15:01] <MikeSmith> q?
  1860. # [15:01] * Zakim sees Julian_Reschke, Murray on the speaker queue
  1861. # [15:01] <MikeSmith> ack Julian_Reschke
  1862. # [15:01] * Zakim sees Murray on the speaker queue
  1863. # [15:01] <Lachy> Julian_Reschke: One things is that there's already an IANA registry, then if it can be used, we should
  1864. # [15:01] <DanC_lap> (ah. I wasn't sure whether it existed yet. http://www.iana.org/assignments/link-relations/ )
  1865. # [15:01] <pimpbot> Title: IANA | Atom Link Relations (at www.iana.org)
  1866. # [15:01] <Lachy> ... XHTML2 puts CURIES into the rel attribute, which concerns me a lot
  1867. # [15:02] <gsnedders> s/CURIES/CURIEs/
  1868. # [15:02] <Lachy> ... We need to be careful with the question about whether a link relation can be an IRI
  1869. # [15:02] <Lachy> ... It gets tricky when you want to use it in the HTTP Link: header
  1870. # [15:02] <Lachy> ... Can map IRIs to URIs, but transformation doesn't round trip
  1871. # [15:02] <MikeSmith> ack Murray
  1872. # [15:02] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1873. # [15:02] <timeless> q?
  1874. # [15:02] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1875. # [15:03] <Lachy> Murray: There's rel values as might be recognised by browsers. Next, prev, TOC, etc.
  1876. # [15:03] <pimpbot> planet: Misdirection <http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/10/23/Misdirection>
  1877. # [15:03] * Quits: dino (dino@81.253.24.196) (Quit: dino)
  1878. # [15:03] <Lachy> ... It seems to me that it would be useful for there to be a list of all these that a commonly supported by browsers
  1879. # [15:04] <Lachy> ... The second issue is rel values that are used by other types of agents
  1880. # [15:04] <r12a> q+
  1881. # [15:04] * Zakim sees r12a on the speaker queue
  1882. # [15:04] <oedipus> murray, do you mean somthing like: http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab/
  1883. # [15:04] <pimpbot> Title: XHTML Vocabulary (at www.w3.org)
  1884. # [15:04] * Joins: mollydotcom (mollyholzs@70.176.234.187)
  1885. # [15:04] <Lachy> ... The way that HTML was designed early on is that the <head profile=""> was meant to contain a list of URIs, which could be used as the place to look for the rel value
  1886. # [15:04] <Lachy> ... Used for GRDDL
  1887. # [15:04] * hsivonen oedipus, Murray is not on IRC
  1888. # [15:04] * Joins: mnot (mnot@118.208.204.167)
  1889. # [15:05] * oedipus thanks, hsivonen
  1890. # [15:05] * CWilso waves to mols
  1891. # [15:05] * myakura thinks that @profile can only contain one uri per the html4 spec
  1892. # [15:05] <Lachy> ... Use it to link to a profile document, look it up and find the ones you want to operate on
  1893. # [15:05] * mollydotcom waves to CWilso and everyone
  1894. # [15:05] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please make minutes
  1895. # [15:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  1896. # [15:05] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG -- 23 Oct 2008 (at www.w3.org)
  1897. # [15:05] <Lachy> .... It's suboptimal becuase there could be conflicts among multiple URIs
  1898. # [15:05] * gsnedders waves to mollydotcom
  1899. # [15:06] <Lachy> ... Would be helpful to use a URI as rel value
  1900. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> q+ Steven
  1901. # [15:06] * Zakim sees r12a, Steven on the speaker queue
  1902. # [15:06] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30)
  1903. # [15:06] * Joins: alexmog_ (alexmog@81.253.26.25)
  1904. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> ack Steeeven
  1905. # [15:06] * Zakim sees r12a, Steven on the speaker queue
  1906. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> ack Steven
  1907. # [15:06] * Zakim sees r12a on the speaker queue
  1908. # [15:06] <Lachy> ... Maybe we should have a new attribute like rel-uri or something to declare teh URI onthe element
  1909. # [15:06] * hhalpin things that adding new attributes unless absolutely needed is not needed.
  1910. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> ack r12a
  1911. # [15:06] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1912. # [15:06] <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#adef-profile
  1913. # [15:06] <pimpbot> Title: The global structure of an HTML document (at www.w3.org)
  1914. # [15:07] <myakura> xhtml2 defines rel=profile if i remember correctly
  1915. # [15:07] * Quits: noah (noah_mende@81.253.26.61) (Ping timeout)
  1916. # [15:07] <Lachy> Richard Ishida: I wanted to clarify that you can round trip between IRIs and URIs, but not IDNs and URIs
  1917. # [15:07] <hhalpin> I think that adding new attributes unless absolutely needed is a bad idea.
  1918. # [15:07] <oedipus> "This attribute specifies the location of one or more meta data profiles, separated by white space. For future extensions, user agents should consider the value to be a list even though this specification only considers the first URI to be significant." (HTML 4.01)
  1919. # [15:07] <Lachy> Julian_Reschke: [example of a IRI that won't round trip]
  1920. # [15:07] <Lachy> ... We would need to specify the comparison rules
  1921. # [15:07] <MikeSmith> q?
  1922. # [15:07] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1923. # [15:08] <Lachy> ... In general, the rule has been to do a plain string comparison
  1924. # [15:08] <hsivonen> anne, sorry, my MathML is rusty: <semantics><annotation-xml>...
  1925. # [15:08] <MikeSmith> q+ Steeeven
  1926. # [15:08] * Zakim sees Steeeven on the speaker queue
  1927. # [15:08] * hsivonen was thrown off by discussion of <semantics> as opposed to <annotation>
  1928. # [15:09] <MikeSmith> ack Steeeven
  1929. # [15:09] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1930. # [15:09] <anne> hsivonen, neither seems to be considered by HTML5 at this point though, am I missing something?
  1931. # [15:09] <Lachy> Steven: We need to plan for a future where everything uses IRIs
  1932. # [15:09] <MikeSmith> q?
  1933. # [15:09] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1934. # [15:10] * Quits: jallan (jallan@81.253.29.228) (Ping timeout)
  1935. # [15:10] <oedipus> myakura, @profile is currently not in the XHTML2 draft: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20071024/attributes.html
  1936. # [15:10] <pimpbot> Title: XHTML 2.0 - List of Attributes (at www.w3.org)
  1937. # [15:10] <Lachy> ??: I understand that HTML5 is happy with an absolute URI being a rel value
  1938. # [15:10] <Lachy> Hixie: Yes
  1939. # [15:10] <Julian_Reschke> q+
  1940. # [15:10] * Zakim sees Julian_Reschke on the speaker queue
  1941. # [15:10] * Quits: oshani (oshanis@128.30.7.14) (Quit: oshani)
  1942. # [15:11] <Lachy> s/??/Phil Archer/
  1943. # [15:11] <gsnedders> q+
  1944. # [15:11] * Zakim sees Julian_Reschke, gsnedders on the speaker queue
  1945. # [15:11] <myakura> oedipus, i meant the rel value "profile," not the attribute
  1946. # [15:11] <Lachy> anne: I don't want to be able to write everything as a URI. e.g. rel="stylesheet" shouldn't have an equivalent using a full URI
  1947. # [15:11] <gsnedders> q-
  1948. # [15:11] * Zakim sees Julian_Reschke on the speaker queue
  1949. # [15:11] * Quits: unl (unl@81.253.23.67) (Quit: unl)
  1950. # [15:12] <hhalpin> q+
  1951. # [15:12] * Zakim sees Julian_Reschke, hhalpin on the speaker queue
  1952. # [15:12] <gsnedders> This is how Atom works too, FWIW
  1953. # [15:12] <Lachy> Phil Archer: If you see a string that isn't a URI, it is taken as a relative URI in the HTTP Link header draft
  1954. # [15:13] <DanC_lap> ("stylesheet" isn't registered at http://www.iana.org/assignments/link-relations/ )
  1955. # [15:13] <pimpbot> Title: IANA | Atom Link Relations (at www.iana.org)
  1956. # [15:13] <gsnedders> http://www.iana.org/assignments/relation/alternate and alternate are identical @rel values in Atom
  1957. # [15:13] <Julian_Reschke> DanC: because currently it's atom only
  1958. # [15:13] <Lachy> ... We need a way to have a token that can be normalised, but be short. URIs can be long
  1959. # [15:13] <anne> having a token registry is fine with me
  1960. # [15:13] <anne> e.g. the WHATWG wiki :)
  1961. # [15:13] <MikeSmith> q?
  1962. # [15:13] * Zakim sees Julian_Reschke, hhalpin on the speaker queue
  1963. # [15:14] <DanC_lap> (I was just clarifying, since I heard phil say "... stylesheet, which is registered")
  1964. # [15:14] <Lachy> DanC_lap: I prefer one registry, but don't like the W3C for that
  1965. # [15:14] <MikeSmith> ack Julian_Reschke
  1966. # [15:14] * Zakim sees hhalpin on the speaker queue
  1967. # [15:14] <gsnedders> q+
  1968. # [15:14] * Zakim sees hhalpin, gsnedders on the speaker queue
  1969. # [15:14] <MikeSmith> ack hhalpin
  1970. # [15:14] * Zakim sees gsnedders on the speaker queue
  1971. # [15:15] * Quits: timbl (timbl@81.253.21.62) (Quit: timbl)
  1972. # [15:15] <MikeSmith> ack gsnedders
  1973. # [15:15] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1974. # [15:15] * Joins: jallan_ (jallan@81.253.34.223)
  1975. # [15:15] * jallan_ is now known as jallan
  1976. # [15:16] <Lachy> gsnedders: The onlhy problem I can see with absolute URIs is using current relations like "stylesheet" is that you can't express them as URIs without breaking compat
  1977. # [15:16] <Julian_Reschke> See http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-http-link-header-02#section-4.1 for registrations for existing HTML link relations
  1978. # [15:16] <pimpbot> Title: draft-nottingham-http-link-header-02 - HTTP Header Linking (at tools.ietf.org)
  1979. # [15:16] <gsnedders> s/onlhy/only/
  1980. # [15:16] <gsnedders> s/as URIs/as absolute URIs/
  1981. # [15:16] <hsivonen> q+
  1982. # [15:16] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1983. # [15:16] <Lachy> Harry: The RDFa discussion was unclear to me, not sure what the technical issues were. Could someone please explain what the issues are>
  1984. # [15:16] <Lachy> s/>/?/
  1985. # [15:16] <gsnedders> s/compat/backwards compatibility/
  1986. # [15:16] <MikeSmith> q?
  1987. # [15:16] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  1988. # [15:16] <MikeSmith> ack hsivonen
  1989. # [15:16] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1990. # [15:17] <Hixie> MikeSmith, i believe you can just type "ack" to get the next speaker
  1991. # [15:17] <Lachy> hsivonen: I was vocal in that discussion against taking RDFa as-is
  1992. # [15:17] <Lachy> ... A lot of it revolves around the way RDFa uses XML namespaces
  1993. # [15:17] <gsnedders> (my comment was meaning using URIs in the same way Atom does)
  1994. # [15:18] <DanC_lap> (Anne made the same comment, gsnedders . or pretty close. but maybe the scribe missed it the first time)
  1995. # [15:18] <Lachy> ... You have to know the namespace mapping context from the lower layer, that you then use as an RDF propery
  1996. # [15:18] * oedipus at least "ack FirstLetter" or "ack FirstLetterSecondLetter"
  1997. # [15:18] * Lachy it's hard to summarise hsivonen
  1998. # [15:18] * DanC_lap gives it a try...
  1999. # [15:18] * gsnedders DanC_lap I didn't hear that
  2000. # [15:18] <Lachy> ... It's confusing for authors to have to deal with these namespace mappings
  2001. # [15:19] * Joins: timbl (timbl@81.253.35.120)
  2002. # [15:19] * gsnedders (sorry anne)
  2003. # [15:19] <Lachy> ... there's a problem for implementers ...
  2004. # [15:19] <Lachy> ... [something about parsing and namespace mapping issues]
  2005. # [15:20] <DanC_lap> (hmm... I wonder if the TAG finding on qnames in content brings up that dynamic/scripting concern.)
  2006. # [15:20] <Lachy> ... We have a case where the DOM consistency princple is violated
  2007. # [15:21] <Lachy> ... xml:lang in the XML namespace, the lang attribute in no namespace. This has caused a lot of bugs
  2008. # [15:21] <Lachy> ... That's why I object to using XML syntax
  2009. # [15:21] * Joins: Norbert2 (51fd190d@128.30.52.43)
  2010. # [15:21] <Steeeven> q+
  2011. # [15:21] * Zakim sees Steeeven on the speaker queue
  2012. # [15:21] * Quits: timbl (timbl@81.253.35.120) (Ping timeout)
  2013. # [15:21] <Lachy> ... The other objection was related to people who aren't in the RDF community having to pay the "RDF tax"
  2014. # [15:21] <gsnedders> RRSAgent, please make minutes
  2015. # [15:21] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-html-wg-minutes.html gsnedders
  2016. # [15:21] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG -- 23 Oct 2008 (at www.w3.org)
  2017. # [15:22] <Lachy> ... [example of having to compare local name and namespace for an element]
  2018. # [15:22] <gsnedders> Chair: MikeSmith
  2019. # [15:22] * marcos feels like clapping every time Henry does one of his monologues...
  2020. # [15:22] <Lachy> ... every time I have to do that, it causes me to do something costly that doesn't really solve a problem
  2021. # [15:23] <Lachy> ... RDF has similar complications
  2022. # [15:23] * Quits: CharlieWiecha (CharlieWie@81.253.27.223) (Ping timeout)
  2023. # [15:23] <anne> From Murray Maloney: Murray is the only person in the world who voted against namespaces in XML
  2024. # [15:23] <timeless> q?
  2025. # [15:23] * Zakim sees Steeeven on the speaker queue
  2026. # [15:23] <Lachy> ... I'd like a solution similar to GRDDL. People who want it can, but doesn't cause problems for people that don't
  2027. # [15:23] <Hixie> ack
  2028. # [15:23] <Hixie> aw, i was wrong
  2029. # [15:24] <gsnedders> q?
  2030. # [15:24] * Zakim sees Steeeven on the speaker queue
  2031. # [15:24] <Hixie> ack s
  2032. # [15:24] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2033. # [15:24] <CWilso> ack Steeven
  2034. # [15:24] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2035. # [15:24] <hhalpin> q+
  2036. # [15:24] * Zakim sees hhalpin on the speaker queue
  2037. # [15:24] <Lachy> Steven: CURIEs aren't namespaces, they're just shortened URIs
  2038. # [15:24] <Lachy> Steven; Similar things appear in e.g. Wikipedia
  2039. # [15:24] <Lachy> s/Steven;/Steven:/
  2040. # [15:24] <Lachy> ... The other thing is that RDFa works in HTML now.
  2041. # [15:24] * Quits: mnot (mnot@118.208.204.167) (Quit: Leaving)
  2042. # [15:25] <hsivonen> q+
  2043. # [15:25] * Zakim sees hhalpin, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  2044. # [15:25] <Lachy> ... People use JavaScript to extract it
  2045. # [15:25] <Lachy> ... I don't see what the problem is
  2046. # [15:25] <CWilso> q?
  2047. # [15:25] <Lachy> ... If you don't want it, don't use it
  2048. # [15:25] * Zakim sees hhalpin, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  2049. # [15:25] <CWilso> ack hhalpin
  2050. # [15:25] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  2051. # [15:25] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
  2052. # [15:25] <Lachy> Harry: We generally have concensus that maybe the way XML implemented namespaces is kind of crazy
  2053. # [15:26] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  2054. # [15:26] * Joins: foo (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  2055. # [15:26] <Lachy> ... But it's interesting that CURIEs as just one string, unlike prefixes/localnames. It's simpler
  2056. # [15:26] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  2057. # [15:26] <Lachy> ... 2 issues
  2058. # [15:26] * Quits: foo (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Client exited)
  2059. # [15:26] <MikeSmith> q?
  2060. # [15:26] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  2061. # [15:26] <Lachy> ... How can we use these URIs in attribute values? Is there a short version of the URI?
  2062. # [15:27] <Lachy> ... This is a problem for people who want to use RDF
  2063. # [15:27] * Quits: arun (arun@81.253.20.216) (Connection reset by peer)
  2064. # [15:27] <Lachy> ... Maybe all that needs to happen is that RDF technologies need to be clear about how they fit within HTML5
  2065. # [15:27] * Joins: arun (arun@81.253.20.216)
  2066. # [15:28] <Lachy> ... as long as there's a way that RDFa can signal the use of CURIEs
  2067. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> ack hsivonen
  2068. # [15:28] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2069. # [15:28] <Lachy> hsivonen: It would be objectionable if the mechanism for associating the base URI with the prefixes were different for HTML5 and XHTML5
  2070. # [15:28] <Lachy> Harry: XHTML5 just uses xmlns?
  2071. # [15:28] <Lachy> hsivonen: Currently there is no defintion of RDFa in XHTML5
  2072. # [15:29] <Lachy> hsivonen: You don't have a property attribute in XHTML5 today, it's not specified how to do RDFa now
  2073. # [15:29] * Quits: nick (nvdbleek@81.253.27.115) (Ping timeout)
  2074. # [15:29] <Steeeven> <meta name="prefixes" content="xhtml http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml foo http://example.net/foo" />
  2075. # [15:29] <Lachy> ... The RDFa community assumes you would do it in XHTML5 the same way as XHTML 1.0
  2076. # [15:29] <pimpbot> Title: XHTML namespace (at www.w3.org)
  2077. # [15:30] <Lachy> Harry: Would HTML5 be willing to sort out some way to use short CURIE like values
  2078. # [15:30] * Joins: oshani (oshanis@128.30.7.14)
  2079. # [15:30] <Lachy> hsivonen: I think the indirection of prefixes is a bug
  2080. # [15:30] * Quits: llynch (chatzilla@81.253.23.96) (Quit: Chatzilla 0.9.75.1 [SeaMonkey 1.1.12/2008092512])
  2081. # [15:30] <Lachy> ... If the URIs are so long that you don't want to deal with them, then that suggests a problem with the RDF naming scheme
  2082. # [15:31] <Lachy> I suggestion you use a registry, and concatenate the short values with a base URI
  2083. # [15:31] <Julian_Reschke> q+
  2084. # [15:31] * Zakim sees Julian_Reschke on the speaker queue
  2085. # [15:32] * Joins: stefanoCrosta (stefano@81.253.33.116)
  2086. # [15:32] * mollydotcom is now known as mollydotcom_afk
  2087. # [15:32] <MikeSmith> ack
  2088. # [15:32] * myakura feels that <meta name=prefixes> looks like the <?namespace?> pi, the old proposal for namespace declaration
  2089. # [15:32] <MikeSmith> ack Julian_Reschke
  2090. # [15:32] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2091. # [15:32] <hhalpin> I'd just like to note that instead of a religious war, it appears the delta between *some* usable form of RDFa and HTML5 is relatively small.
  2092. # [15:32] <Lachy> Julian_Reschke: What hsivonen just proposed seems like a harder indirection mechanism
  2093. # [15:32] * Joins: JonathanJ (hollobit@81.253.37.187)
  2094. # [15:32] <hhalpin> +q
  2095. # [15:32] * Zakim sees hhalpin on the speaker queue
  2096. # [15:33] <Lachy> hsivonen: yes, but the "RDF tax" is only paid by the RDF community
  2097. # [15:33] <MikeSmith> ack
  2098. # [15:33] <MikeSmith> q?
  2099. # [15:33] * Zakim sees hhalpin on the speaker queue
  2100. # [15:33] <MikeSmith> ack hhalpin
  2101. # [15:33] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2102. # [15:34] <anne> Steeeven, note that technically the xmlns attribute from an HTML parser is different from an XML parser (the latter has a namespace)
  2103. # [15:34] * timeless chuckles
  2104. # [15:34] <anne> Steeeven, same for xmlns:* of course
  2105. # [15:34] <MikeSmith> q?
  2106. # [15:34] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2107. # [15:34] * gsnedders yawns
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  2123. # [15:42] <hhalpin> anne - so, unknown attributes though, such as a unknown non-namespaced xmlns, would still be in the DOM and thus serialized by XHTML5.
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  2134. # [16:00] * Quits: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217) (Quit: Laura)
  2135. # [16:01] <MikeSmith> http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/10/23/Misdirection
  2136. # [16:01] <pimpbot> Title: Sam Ruby: Misdirection (at intertwingly.net)
  2137. # [16:01] * Quits: stefanoCrosta (stefano@81.253.33.116) (Ping timeout)
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  2150. # [16:08] <anne> hhalpin, actually, xmlns couldn't be serialized back
  2151. # [16:08] * Joins: Joshue (Joshue@81.253.42.19)
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  2153. # [16:09] * Joins: nessy (nessy@81.253.43.29)
  2154. # [16:10] * karl notices that there is less and less people in HTML WG room
  2155. # [16:10] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@81.253.41.244) (Connection reset by peer)
  2156. # [16:10] <anne> hhalpin, though maybe it indeed depends on the serializer
  2157. # [16:10] * Joins: Adam (Adam@81.253.42.177)
  2158. # [16:11] <Lachy> Present+ Sylvia Phifer
  2159. # [16:11] <Lachy> +Raphael
  2160. # [16:11] * Zakim wonders where Raphael is
  2161. # [16:11] <anne> so is table delayed?
  2162. # [16:11] <Lachy> +Sylvia Phifer
  2163. # [16:11] <hsivonen> s/Sylvia Phifer/Silvia Pfeiffer/
  2164. # [16:11] <MikeSmith> anne, in 5 minutes
  2165. # [16:11] * Joins: jallan_ (jallan@81.253.43.108)
  2166. # [16:11] * jallan_ is now known as jallan
  2167. # [16:12] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@81.253.41.244)
  2168. # [16:12] <Lachy> Sylvia: [About <video>]
  2169. # [16:12] * Parts: ShaneM (ahby@75.168.245.179) (Leaving.)
  2170. # [16:13] <Lachy> ... We're talking about fragment identifiers applying to media resources, like video
  2171. # [16:13] <Lachy> e.g. video.ogg#time=5,12
  2172. # [16:13] * gsnedders hsivonen: thx
  2173. # [16:13] * Joins: unl (unl@81.253.43.176)
  2174. # [16:13] <MikeSmith> q?
  2175. # [16:13] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2176. # [16:13] <Lachy> ... also query strings like &track=1,2,3
  2177. # [16:13] * Parts: unl (unl@81.253.43.176)
  2178. # [16:14] <Lachy> ... For video, audio and images
  2179. # [16:14] <Hixie> RB: Please don't use an ampersand!
  2180. # [16:14] <Lachy> ... The effect it might have on the <video> and <audio> element in HTML5
  2181. # [16:14] * Joins: Roland_ (Roland@81.253.43.131)
  2182. # [16:14] <Lachy> Hixie: start and end attributes will be removed. They overlap with this stuff
  2183. # [16:14] * Joins: nick (nvdbleek@81.253.43.175)
  2184. # [16:15] <Lachy> ... We're simplifying the looping attributes
  2185. # [16:15] * Quits: noah (noah_mende@81.253.38.44) (Ping timeout)
  2186. # [16:15] <Lachy> Raphael: Establishing the communication between the UA and server
  2187. # [16:15] <Lachy> ... through HTTP headers
  2188. # [16:15] <Lachy> ... The UA will still know that they only got a fragment of the resource
  2189. # [16:16] <anne> Hixie: we'll replace looping attributes with a simple loop boolean attribute
  2190. # [16:16] <Lachy> ... Please join the Media Fragments working group if interested. It's open, public mailing list
  2191. # [16:16] <Lachy> Topic: table headers
  2192. # [16:16] <Lachy> Joshue: The issue is how to mark up complex data tables, header associations
  2193. # [16:17] <Joshue> this is scary url http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders#head-4e755761c9194f726c62cf815b251a464e9c4635
  2194. # [16:17] <pimpbot> Title: HTML/IssueTableHeaders - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
  2195. # [16:18] * Hixie notes that he has 86 more e-mails of feedback on the issue of tables markup that he hasn't yet processed
  2196. # [16:18] * Parts: oedipus (oedipus@71.250.74.3)
  2197. # [16:18] <raphael> Media Fragment Home: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/ and public mailing list: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/
  2198. # [16:18] <pimpbot> Title: W3C Media Fragments Working Group (at www.w3.org)
  2199. # [16:19] * MikeSmith thanks raphael
  2200. # [16:19] * CWilso read faster, Hixie! :)
  2201. # [16:19] <Joshue> These are also relevent http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=5822#c14
  2202. # [16:19] <pimpbot> 5822: gez.lemon@gmail.com, P2, NEW, The headers attribute should be able to reference a td
  2203. # [16:19] <Lachy> Al Gilman: The operational requirement from the consumer is associating an arbitrary cell with any other cell that provide context for interpreting the data
  2204. # [16:19] * gsnedders thinks CWilso should do so himself :)
  2205. # [16:19] * Quits: nick (nvdbleek@81.253.43.175) (Ping timeout)
  2206. # [16:19] <mjs> Hixie, fragments in the media URI aren't really replacements for start/end/etc timing control attributes, because you can't readily change them through API
  2207. # [16:19] <Lachy> ... Chained headers
  2208. # [16:19] * plh is surprised that start and end might be removed from html5 but will figure this out later
  2209. # [16:19] <Lachy> ... Multiple tiers of context information within tables
  2210. # [16:20] * Joins: nick (nvdbleek@194.7.185.204)
  2211. # [16:20] <Joshue> Gez's complex table example http://juicystudio.com/wcag/tables/altcomplex.html
  2212. # [16:20] <pimpbot> Title: Child investment portfolios (at juicystudio.com)
  2213. # [16:20] <Lachy> ... It doesn't work in HTML4 because you can't have a TH that is a header for a TH
  2214. # [16:20] <mjs> Hixie, you have to parse and reassmeble the URI to do it
  2215. # [16:20] * nessy wonders what plh's issues are?
  2216. # [16:20] * Joins: oshani (oshanis@128.30.7.14)
  2217. # [16:20] * Joins: marcos (marcos@81.253.44.161)
  2218. # [16:20] <MikeSmith> q?
  2219. # [16:20] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2220. # [16:20] <mjs> Hixie, and I think doing so would per the spec require the video to be reloaded as well
  2221. # [16:20] <Hixie> mjs, join the media fragments wg and let them know :)
  2222. # [16:20] <Hixie> (or send feedback)
  2223. # [16:21] <Lachy> AlGilman: There has been dispute on the mailing list, people using many different terms.
  2224. # [16:21] <mjs> Hixie, I don't see how the media fragments WG can address HTML5-defined DOM APIs....
  2225. # [16:21] <mjs> Hixie, are you saying you want them to take over the HTMLMediaElement interface?
  2226. # [16:21] * plh will follow up separately but shares mjs concerns
  2227. # [16:21] <Lachy> AlGilman: There are 2 ways to do it: 1. Have a TD cell be a target of a headers attribute.
  2228. # [16:21] * Joins: Al (alfredsgil@81.253.44.48)
  2229. # [16:21] <Hixie> mjs, maybe their use cases aren't relevant, or won't apply to html5, and that would be good for them to know
  2230. # [16:21] <Lachy> ... 2. Allow TH to reference another TH with a headers attribute
  2231. # [16:22] <Joshue> some more background on a proposed solution using existing header/id combinations which is well supported in current AT http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Action72Headers
  2232. # [16:22] <pimpbot> Title: HTML/Action72Headers - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
  2233. # [16:22] * nessy wonders if mjs is in the room?
  2234. # [16:22] <Lachy> ... We would certainly like to make scope more effective
  2235. # [16:22] * gsnedders nessy: no
  2236. # [16:22] <mjs> Hixie, I'm giving you feedback on your minuted statement that "start and end attributes will be removed. They overlap with this stuff"
  2237. # [16:22] <Joshue> Smart span algorithm http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0075.html
  2238. # [16:22] <pimpbot> Title: Smart span algorithm for table cells from James Graham on 2008-03-10 (public-html@w3.org from March 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  2239. # [16:22] <Hixie> mjs: oh they'll be removed regardless of this
  2240. # [16:22] <Lachy> ... But we need to come together on a proposal for what all of the markup features are, including the headers attribute, algorithm, etc.
  2241. # [16:22] * Joins: noah (noah_mende@81.253.45.29)
  2242. # [16:23] <Hixie> mjs: (probably)
  2243. # [16:23] <mjs> Hixie, why?
  2244. # [16:23] <Hixie> see recent feedback to the list
  2245. # [16:23] <Hixie> there aren't good use cases
  2246. # [16:23] <Lachy> ... We still have to work out detalis
  2247. # [16:23] <mjs> for audio there are
  2248. # [16:23] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30)
  2249. # [16:23] <anne> s/mjs:/mjs,/
  2250. # [16:23] <anne> s/mjs:/mjs,/
  2251. # [16:24] <mjs> playing a fragment of an audio clip is easier than editing the actual audio file
  2252. # [16:24] * raphael invites mjs to have a corridor chat with silvia and/or raphael this week
  2253. # [16:24] <sicking> mjs: but do you want to change that fragment?
  2254. # [16:24] <MikeSmith> ?
  2255. # [16:24] <Joshue> +q
  2256. # [16:24] * Zakim sees Joshue on the speaker queue
  2257. # [16:24] * gsnedders raphael: mjs isn't here
  2258. # [16:24] <anne> s/mjs:/mjs,/
  2259. # [16:25] * mjs is not within geographical range of the relevant corridors
  2260. # [16:25] <MikeSmith> ack Joshue
  2261. # [16:25] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2262. # [16:25] <Lachy> Joshue: There are a couple of solutions
  2263. # [16:25] <darobin> mjs, as we say in French, absent people are always wrong
  2264. # [16:25] <Lachy> ... about half way down the wiki page
  2265. # [16:25] <mjs> sicking, let's say you are writing a web app that lets you select a range from an audio or video clip and then play that
  2266. # [16:26] <Lachy> ... Smart headers algorithm, TH referencing TH, etc.
  2267. # [16:26] <nessy> mjs, media fragment URIs allow you to do just that: play a fragment
  2268. # [16:26] <Lachy> ... Smart Headers is a good algorithm
  2269. # [16:26] <Hixie> mjs, for that use case, you'd use javascript anyway, so no need for anything but the existing js api
  2270. # [16:26] <Lachy> ... Allowing headers="" to reference a TD element
  2271. # [16:26] <mjs> nessy, but they don't let you change what fragment is referred to without having to construct a new URI
  2272. # [16:26] <Lachy> ... is also an elegant solution
  2273. # [16:26] * raphael is concerned with all opinions :-) we will start up soon a thread public-html and what lists to get feedback
  2274. # [16:26] * gsnedders has just lost power
  2275. # [16:26] <Lachy> ... headers="" is widely supported by screen readers
  2276. # [16:26] * gsnedders just got it back
  2277. # [16:27] <Lachy> ... lets see if we can come to some kind of concensus
  2278. # [16:27] <MikeSmith> q?
  2279. # [16:27] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2280. # [16:27] <Joshue> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders#head-fc23268c19f6b7ad3dbde901743900ab1053b433
  2281. # [16:27] <pimpbot> Title: HTML/IssueTableHeaders - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
  2282. # [16:27] <nessy> mjs, what's the difference between changing a URI in a href attribute and changing the start and end attributes?
  2283. # [16:27] <mjs> Hixie, so you don't mean to remove the equivalents of this stuff in the JS API?
  2284. # [16:27] <Lachy> BenMillard: At the moment, Firefox doesn't do anything with scope or headers
  2285. # [16:27] <Hixie> mjs, i wouldn't suggest removing curentTime and the cue range API, which is what you'd use for this.
  2286. # [16:27] <Lachy> AlGilman: But it's all in the DOM, even though it doesn't do anything special with them
  2287. # [16:27] <mjs> nessy, creating a specially formatted string is a sloppy API design
  2288. # [16:27] <Hixie> mjs, seek to the start, cue a pause at the end, and play
  2289. # [16:27] <mjs> Hixie, that doesn't let you actually change the range that the play controls reflect
  2290. # [16:27] * Joins: maddiin (mc@87.185.238.22)
  2291. # [16:28] <Hixie> mjs, nor do the existing attributes
  2292. # [16:28] * Philip reminds gsnedders that success is power, so he should fail less in order to stop his battery running out
  2293. # [16:28] <Lachy> Michael Cooper: A lot of accessibility is done through the acessibility API and would require the UA to do a mapping from the HTML DOM to that API
  2294. # [16:28] <Lachy> ... But it's also done through the DOM for web content
  2295. # [16:28] <mjs> Hixie, what do you mean? I would expect if start and end are specified, the little slider thing goes between start and end, not the full time range of the underlying media item
  2296. # [16:28] <Hixie> mjs: what if loopend is after end?
  2297. # [16:29] <anne> s/mjs:/mjs,/
  2298. # [16:29] <Hixie> anne: i'm not scribe, it doesn't matter if i have a colon
  2299. # [16:29] <anne> s/mjs:/mjs,/g
  2300. # [16:29] <mjs> Hixie, the loop attributes make things more complicated, presumably you need the union of {start, end} and {loopstart, loopend} to be presented
  2301. # [16:29] <Lachy> Joshue; it's important to bear in mind the limited support for scope="" in current UA and AT
  2302. # [16:30] <MikeSmith> q?
  2303. # [16:30] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2304. # [16:30] <mjs> Hixie, I tentatively agree that fine-grained loop control is probably more complex than justified
  2305. # [16:30] <Hixie> mjs, i don't really understand the use case you are presenting, but i really should pay more attention to the room
  2306. # [16:30] <mjs> Hixie, although "just do it in script" is not a good solution for looping
  2307. # [16:30] <Lachy> MikeSmith: Is there a time line for when you'll get to the remaining table headers feedback?
  2308. # [16:31] <nessy> mjs, we will have a boolean loop attribute
  2309. # [16:31] <Lachy> Hixie: I'll get to it when I get to it, but I can prioritise it if there are vendors that need me to
  2310. # [16:31] <nessy> mjs, that's an independent issue
  2311. # [16:31] <mjs> nessy, a string syntax is not a substitute for a proper API (though an ok way to specify things declaratively)
  2312. # [16:31] <Lachy> AlGilman: This is not an urgent matter, because in the short term people can still use headers="" in HTML4
  2313. # [16:31] <nessy> mjs, there already is an API to control media resources
  2314. # [16:31] <mjs> nessy, you don't talk to real media APIs by formatting special strings to tell them what time range to play and how many times
  2315. # [16:31] * Joins: SallyC (sally.cain@81.253.19.215)
  2316. # [16:32] <hsivonen> q+
  2317. # [16:32] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  2318. # [16:32] <nessy> mjs, the start and end attributes don't provide you with an API
  2319. # [16:32] <MikeSmith> q+ Ben
  2320. # [16:32] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Ben on the speaker queue
  2321. # [16:32] <Lachy> ... I'd like us to work with Ben to tune the algorithm, and getting that into HTML5 and implemented in browsers
  2322. # [16:32] <mjs> nessy, I am talking primarily about the HTMLMediaElement interface
  2323. # [16:32] <nessy> mjs, so am I
  2324. # [16:32] <mjs> nessy, not the content attributes
  2325. # [16:32] * karl wonders who support Ben to do this work (financially)
  2326. # [16:32] <Lachy> Hixie: It sounds like sooner rather than later would help, so I can help with that in the next few months
  2327. # [16:32] <mjs> (unfortunately the word "content" is ambiguous)
  2328. # [16:32] <Joshue> +q
  2329. # [16:32] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Ben, Joshue on the speaker queue
  2330. # [16:32] <mjs> nessy, the start and end attributes in the HTMLMediaElement interface certainly do provide an API
  2331. # [16:33] <nessy> mjs, we should take this offline from this room
  2332. # [16:33] <smedero> karl: ben doesn't have a laptop so I'll jump in: mozilla
  2333. # [16:33] <Lachy> AlGilman: If you only have headers="", then it's grotty for authors. But we should move forward with change to improve that
  2334. # [16:33] <nessy> mjs, there will be more discussions on the mailing lists
  2335. # [16:33] * anne gives up on correcting : with ,
  2336. # [16:33] <Lachy> MikeSmith: Does that timeline work for you guys?
  2337. # [16:33] * anne blames W3C logging conventions
  2338. # [16:33] * smedero sorry anne
  2339. # [16:33] <Lachy> Joshue: I can't speak for any vendors, but it would be nice
  2340. # [16:34] <karl> smedero, I hope it is enough for him to be doing that correctly without making his "life at risk".
  2341. # [16:34] * Joins: billmason (billmason@69.30.57.41)
  2342. # [16:34] <Lachy> Hixie: The remaining ~2000 currently in the queue should be dealt with within a year or so
  2343. # [16:34] * gsnedders anne: there's no need to replace them for anyone apart from scribe
  2344. # [16:34] <MikeSmith> q?
  2345. # [16:34] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Ben, Joshue on the speaker queue
  2346. # [16:34] <MikeSmith> ack hsivonen
  2347. # [16:34] * Zakim sees Ben, Joshue on the speaker queue
  2348. # [16:34] <Lachy> hsivonen: There's an open moz bug about exposing table relationships to accessibility APIs
  2349. # [16:35] <Lachy> ... I encourage you to keep an eye on the mozilla bug, especially if the Smart Headers algorithm will be going in the spec
  2350. # [16:35] * anne gsnedders well, in theory there could be a difference; e.g. aiding the scribe versus addressing someone
  2351. # [16:35] <Lachy> ... It would be a shame to have them implement what's in the current spec, and then have it updated in the spec later
  2352. # [16:35] <MikeSmith> ack Ben
  2353. # [16:35] * Zakim sees Joshue on the speaker queue
  2354. # [16:36] <Lachy> BenMillard: Al mentioned tuning the proposal. I wouldn't want to kind of shortcut the proposal
  2355. # [16:36] <anne> "hixified"
  2356. # [16:36] <Lachy> ... I think that the algorithm in Jame's inspector should be "Hixified" into the spec
  2357. # [16:36] <Lachy> ... I think an Action item would be to document the diff between the spec and Smart Headers algorithm
  2358. # [16:36] <gsnedders> s/Jame's/James's/
  2359. # [16:37] <MikeSmith> ack Joshue
  2360. # [16:37] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2361. # [16:37] <MichaelC> q+ to ask if it's not more efficient to get a round of feedback from implementers before putting a proposal in the spec
  2362. # [16:37] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
  2363. # [16:37] <Lachy> Joshue: One of the things that came out in the PF meeting was that we were all talking about the same thing, using different names
  2364. # [16:37] * Quits: ed (ed@81.253.58.64) (Ping timeout)
  2365. # [16:37] <Lachy> ... We should know what we're talking about
  2366. # [16:37] <Lachy> ... get on the same page
  2367. # [16:38] * Philip wonders if "Hixification" is the process whereby you rewrite an algorithm as a very verbose linear sequence of prose with lots of gotos so that nobody can understand what it's doing any more :-p
  2368. # [16:38] <Lachy> q?
  2369. # [16:38] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
  2370. # [16:38] <MikeSmith> q?
  2371. # [16:38] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
  2372. # [16:38] <MikeSmith> ack MikeSmith
  2373. # [16:38] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
  2374. # [16:38] <MikeSmith> ack MichaelC
  2375. # [16:38] <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to ask if it's not more efficient to get a round of feedback from implementers before putting a proposal in the spec
  2376. # [16:38] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2377. # [16:38] * Parts: nick (nvdbleek@194.7.185.204) (Leaving.)
  2378. # [16:38] <Lachy> MichaelC: It might be more efficient if there is a round oof feedback from implementers before it's in the psec
  2379. # [16:38] <Lachy> s/psec/spec/
  2380. # [16:38] <Lachy> s/oof/of/
  2381. # [16:39] <anne> q+
  2382. # [16:39] * Zakim sees anne on the speaker queue
  2383. # [16:39] <hsivonen> Hixie, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=441445
  2384. # [16:39] <pimpbot> Bug 441445: was not found.
  2385. # [16:39] <anne> q-
  2386. # [16:39] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2387. # [16:40] <Joshue> From the PF meeting we found an issue around the use of terminology in this issue. Conceptual headers, chained headers, nested headers etc are all essentially the same. I would like to see the terminology tied up so we are all on the same page. This could help the process all round.
  2388. # [16:40] * mjs did not see the feedback Hixie referred to that would suggest removal of time control or that it lacked a use case, would appreciate a pointer
  2389. # [16:41] * anne mjs was on whatwg@whatwg.org
  2390. # [16:41] <Lachy> AlGilman: What we want to do in face time, we've done
  2391. # [16:42] <hsivonen> q+
  2392. # [16:42] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  2393. # [16:42] <mjs> anne, do you recall the title of the thread?
  2394. # [16:42] <MikeSmith> ack hsivonen
  2395. # [16:42] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2396. # [16:42] <anne> mjs, i'll look for you
  2397. # [16:43] <Lachy> hsivonen: I heard that there was direction of concensus on the validation side that headers would point to th, be valid and point to td might not be valid
  2398. # [16:43] <anne> mjs, "video tag : loop for ever "
  2399. # [16:43] <MichaelC> Just to clarify, since it needed verbal clarification, I do not advocate implementation of proposals, but was suggesting implementers might have worthwhile insights on a proposal (but should not implement it until it matures)
  2400. # [16:43] <Lachy> AlGilman: The current practice doesn't use HTML5 validation yet, we don't need to trouble you now
  2401. # [16:44] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Quit: tlr)
  2402. # [16:44] <anne> mjs, people from Apple have been involved in the thread, e.g. http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-October/016692.html
  2403. # [16:44] <pimpbot> Title: [whatwg] video tag : loop for ever (at lists.whatwg.org)
  2404. # [16:44] * Joins: ed (ed@81.253.58.64)
  2405. # [16:44] <Lachy> MikeSmith: We could talk about HTTP auth
  2406. # [16:44] <mjs> that's a long thread
  2407. # [16:44] <Lachy> Julian_Reschke: OK
  2408. # [16:44] <Lachy> Topic: HTTP Authentication
  2409. # [16:45] <anne> scribe: anne
  2410. # [16:45] <Lachy> MikeSmith: Lachlan will not be scribing tomorrow because he's done such a great job today
  2411. # [16:46] * Quits: Yudai (Yudai@121.3.72.109) (Ping timeout)
  2412. # [16:46] <anne> AG: the Web Security Contenxt WG deals with the look and feel
  2413. # [16:46] * Quits: JonathanJ (hollobit@81.253.37.187) (Ping timeout)
  2414. # [16:46] <anne> AG: of authentication dialogs
  2415. # [16:47] <anne> [scribe is unclear if this was actually said]
  2416. # [16:47] * timeless frowns
  2417. # [16:47] <anne> [apologies]
  2418. # [16:47] * timeless wasn't allowed into that group's meeting earlier today
  2419. # [16:47] * Quits: Al (alfredsgil@81.253.44.48) (Quit: Leaving)
  2420. # [16:47] * timeless considers visiting the room to find out if this is worth listening
  2421. # [16:47] <anne> [MS describes topics for tomorrow]
  2422. # [16:48] * Quits: Joshue (Joshue@81.253.42.19) (Quit: Computer goes to sleep!)
  2423. # [16:48] <anne> [Topic discussed now will be HTTP authentication integration with HTML]
  2424. # [16:48] * timeless is here now but will not be here tomorrow
  2425. # [16:49] <anne> HS: will unconference sessions be integrated into this schedule
  2426. # [16:49] <anne> MS: we need to talk about the authoring guide
  2427. # [16:49] <anne> HS: 11:45 AM will be about implied ARIA semantics
  2428. # [16:49] <anne> MS: that is until 12:30 AM
  2429. # [16:49] <anne> s/AM/PM/
  2430. # [16:49] * anne right? AM/PM around 12 confuses me
  2431. # [16:50] * timeless notes that pm=after noon, 12pm=12noon
  2432. # [16:50] <Hixie> AM is 00:00..11:59 and PM is 12:00..23:59
  2433. # [16:50] * timeless notes that 12am is midnight,
  2434. # [16:50] <anne> Topic: HTML integration point for HTTP authentication
  2435. # [16:50] * MichaelC leaves to go to AC meeting, see you tomorrow
  2436. # [16:50] <anne> JR: issue is that user agents put up a primitive user interface that authors cannot style
  2437. # [16:50] * Philip has some digital clocks that go to 24:00
  2438. # [16:51] <anne> JR: originally the idea was that the response would actually return HTML with a login form, but that never happened
  2439. # [16:51] <Hixie> q+
  2440. # [16:51] * Zakim sees Hixie on the speaker queue
  2441. # [16:51] <anne> JR: user agents only pop up this dialog which is one reason user agents are not using authentication
  2442. # [16:51] <anne> JR: there are other issues: e.g. i18n
  2443. # [16:51] * Joins: aroben (aroben@68.36.118.246)
  2444. # [16:51] <anne> JR: these are not being solved because of chicken / egg problem
  2445. # [16:52] <MikeSmith> can somebody please find and post the link to the related discussion for this that was on the WHATWG list recently?
  2446. # [16:52] <MikeSmith> aaron schwartz e-mail, I mean
  2447. # [16:52] * timeless can't
  2448. # [16:52] <anne> JR: AvK mentioned that another missing piece is the logout button
  2449. # [16:53] <anne> JR: I don't have a personal agenda. Just noticed there was an old proposal 1999? where the same issue was described
  2450. # [16:53] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/issues/#WF2-http-auth-login-logout
  2451. # [16:53] <pimpbot> Title: WHATWG Issues List (at www.whatwg.org)
  2452. # [16:53] <anne> JR: simple form that the user agent would know that there's a user name and password and use that
  2453. # [16:53] <sicking> q+
  2454. # [16:53] * Zakim sees Hixie, sicking on the speaker queue
  2455. # [16:53] <anne> q?
  2456. # [16:53] * Zakim sees Hixie, sicking on the speaker queue
  2457. # [16:54] * Quits: jallan (jallan@81.253.43.108) (Ping timeout)
  2458. # [16:54] <MikeSmith> ack Hixie
  2459. # [16:54] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
  2460. # [16:54] <anne> IH: I was wondering why we want HTTP auth to succeed
  2461. # [16:55] <anne> JR: it's not necessarily HTTP authentication, but form based login works very badly if the user is not a person
  2462. # [16:55] <anne> JS: [missed]
  2463. # [16:56] <anne> IH: there are other ways as well, with tokens and cookies
  2464. # [16:56] <anne> JR: what specs?
  2465. # [16:56] <anne> IH: cookies, HTTP, etc.
  2466. # [16:56] <anne> JR: you need out of band information to realize the server requires authentication
  2467. # [16:56] <Philip> MikeSmith, http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-October/016742.html ?
  2468. # [16:56] <pimpbot> Title: [whatwg] fixing the authentication problem (at lists.whatwg.org)
  2469. # [16:56] <anne> IH: you need that anyway
  2470. # [16:56] * MikeSmith thanks Philip
  2471. # [16:57] <anne> JR: there's a framework for that; not sure we should get rid of it
  2472. # [16:57] <anne> IH: it's not clear we should make it better if it's not needed
  2473. # [16:57] <anne> JS: whenever we work on widgets, "we want to style this form widget"
  2474. # [16:58] <anne> JR: that's the issue I want to get fixed
  2475. # [16:58] <Philip> (in which the problem is that people don't want to use the proper solution (HTTPS), and instead use the worst possible solution (sending passwords in the clear) because the compromise (HTTP Digest) is ugly)
  2476. # [16:58] <MikeSmith> ack sicking
  2477. # [16:58] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2478. # [16:58] <anne> IH: not sure that's the right answer, but not immediately obvious why it isn't
  2479. # [16:58] <Philip> (or at least that's how I might interpret it)
  2480. # [16:58] <anne> JS (sicking): HTTP auth is broken in many many ways
  2481. # [16:59] * Quits: myakura (myakura@81.253.21.155) (Quit: Leaving...)
  2482. # [16:59] * karl wonders it is said that you can't style or is it really that "you can't style today". Would browsers dev accept to make it stylable.
  2483. # [16:59] <anne> ... I have 50 different passwords to remember; if one of these sites start failing, I'm hosed
  2484. # [16:59] <anne> ... the form based login is really bad. Teaches phishing and such.
  2485. # [16:59] * Joins: Yudai (Yudai@121.3.72.109)
  2486. # [16:59] <anne> ... we need to rid of passwords entirely
  2487. # [17:00] <anne> ... OpenID, infocards, Microsoft Password
  2488. # [17:00] <MikeSmith> q?
  2489. # [17:00] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2490. # [17:00] <anne> ... should we go directly for that, or should we try to make incremental changes on the mechanisms that exist today
  2491. # [17:00] <Julian_Reschke> q+
  2492. # [17:00] * Zakim sees Julian_Reschke on the speaker queue
  2493. # [17:00] <anne> ... e.g. making HTTP auth secure (digest does clear text)
  2494. # [17:00] <anne> ... and fix the styling issue so people will use it
  2495. # [17:01] <Hixie> q+
  2496. # [17:01] * Zakim sees Julian_Reschke, Hixie on the speaker queue
  2497. # [17:01] <CWilso> s/Microsoft Password/LiveID
  2498. # [17:01] <anne> ... should we go for ID management or should we try to do some fixes
  2499. # [17:01] <anne> CWilso, that's not what he said :p
  2500. # [17:01] * timeless wonders if someone minuted self
  2501. # [17:01] <Hixie> q-
  2502. # [17:01] * Zakim sees Julian_Reschke on the speaker queue
  2503. # [17:01] <MikeSmith> ack Julian_Reschke
  2504. # [17:01] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2505. # [17:01] <anne> IH: The way to solve the problem is to not assume HTTP auth is the solution
  2506. # [17:02] <adrianba> anne, he said Microsoft Passport
  2507. # [17:02] <hsivonen> q+
  2508. # [17:02] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  2509. # [17:02] <Hixie> s/to not/not to/
  2510. # [17:02] <anne> JR: the HTTP auth framework does in theory support other authentication schemes
  2511. # [17:02] <anne> ... e.g. OAuth
  2512. # [17:03] <anne> ... one example, portal project where document management was through the browser and webdav clients
  2513. # [17:03] <nessy> q+
  2514. # [17:03] * Zakim sees hsivonen, nessy on the speaker queue
  2515. # [17:03] <anne> ... the automated clients need HTTP authentication to work
  2516. # [17:03] <anne> ... servers start sniffing user agent string or even method name
  2517. # [17:03] <hhalpin> Although I am technically outside, and would like things like LiveID/OpenID and OAuth pushed, I am not sure if they should be put in HTML5.
  2518. # [17:03] <anne> adrianba, right, so the correction was wrong, doesn't matter though
  2519. # [17:03] * Quits: oshani (oshanis@128.30.7.14) (Quit: oshani)
  2520. # [17:03] <MikeSmith> q?
  2521. # [17:03] * Zakim sees hsivonen, nessy on the speaker queue
  2522. # [17:04] <MikeSmith> ack hsivonen
  2523. # [17:04] <anne> ... etc. need nasty workarounds with the current situation
  2524. # [17:04] * Zakim sees nessy on the speaker queue
  2525. # [17:04] <sicking> q+
  2526. # [17:04] * Zakim sees nessy, sicking on the speaker queue
  2527. # [17:04] * Philip can't imagine any attempts to stop people making web sites with a username box and a password box will ever be successful, because developers want complete control over their user account management and security and everything
  2528. # [17:04] <anne> HS: one of the important things for adding something to the platform requires a rollout strategy that cannot be blocked by a browser vendor
  2529. # [17:04] <anne> HS: e.g. ARIA, the way it was defined it could not be ignored; though it did end up being implemented by all four in record time
  2530. # [17:05] <anne> HS: how do you see the rollout strategy where you use OpenID for browser authentication and OAuth for servers
  2531. # [17:05] <MikeSmith> q?
  2532. # [17:05] * Zakim sees nessy, sicking on the speaker queue
  2533. # [17:05] <anne> JR: I don't know; I thought brainstorming would be good
  2534. # [17:05] <MikeSmith> ack nessy
  2535. # [17:05] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
  2536. # [17:05] <anne> SP: I had a chat with TBL last night; he didn't like OpenID but he had some ideas for a new authentication scheme
  2537. # [17:05] <anne> SP: maybe someone should have a chat with TBL about this
  2538. # [17:06] <MikeSmith> ack sicking
  2539. # [17:06] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2540. # [17:06] <anne> JS (sicking): I'm not sure what he didn't like about OpenID
  2541. # [17:06] <anne> SP: complexity; going to another website, extra steps, etc.
  2542. # [17:06] <anne> JS (sicking): I think with having OpenID in the browser will solve that problem
  2543. # [17:07] <anne> JS (sicking): the redirect is needed because they innovate within the browser box
  2544. # [17:07] <anne> JS (sicking): as vendors we can change the browser
  2545. # [17:07] <anne> ... we had issues, not sure what the issues were
  2546. # [17:07] <anne> ... people have voiced security concerns with OpenID
  2547. # [17:07] <anne> ... my ultimate point was having ID management rather than password management
  2548. # [17:07] <MikeSmith> q?
  2549. # [17:07] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2550. # [17:07] <hhalpin> q+
  2551. # [17:07] * Zakim sees hhalpin on the speaker queue
  2552. # [17:08] <anne> AG: ... working with captchas(sp?)
  2553. # [17:08] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30)
  2554. # [17:08] <anne> ... we want to encourage single sign on
  2555. # [17:08] * nessy anne: he said "anyone checking with Tim should also check with Dan"
  2556. # [17:08] * gsnedders thinks anne should be as bossy as fantasai
  2557. # [17:09] <anne> ... the PFWG is reopening our note regarding captchas
  2558. # [17:09] <anne> ... the state of the art is that these tests that the commercial botnot businesses can't crack, people can't do either
  2559. # [17:09] <anne> ... it's more rationale to use a single sign on service
  2560. # [17:09] <anne> ... for more of these transactions and we'll be pushing people in that direction
  2561. # [17:09] <MikeSmith> ack hhalpin
  2562. # [17:10] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2563. # [17:10] <anne> HH: nobody disagrees with single sign on and that it should be put in the browser
  2564. # [17:10] <anne> HH: there are several solutions in this space
  2565. # [17:10] <sicking> q+
  2566. # [17:10] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
  2567. # [17:10] <anne> HH: should HTML5 endorse one solution or provide a hook
  2568. # [17:10] * Philip wonders how single sign on services is at all related to CAPTCHAs and would help prevent spam, since surely spammers will just register with those services (or set up their own)
  2569. # [17:10] <anne> HH: or will the true solution arrive in a year or two, maybe wait it out a bit
  2570. # [17:11] <anne> HH: really important, should be done
  2571. # [17:11] <anne> AG: does this sound like a requirement for security API between the browser and the protocols
  2572. # [17:11] <anne> HH: not sure how to design such a hook
  2573. # [17:11] <MikeSmith> q?
  2574. # [17:11] * Zakim sees sicking on the speaker queue
  2575. # [17:11] * Quits: mjs (mjs@69.181.43.20) (Quit: mjs)
  2576. # [17:11] <anne> HH: I would like to see some statistics on various ID mechanisms
  2577. # [17:12] <anne> AG: we should live with the redirects for longer is what you're saying
  2578. # [17:12] <MikeSmith> ack sicking
  2579. # [17:12] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2580. # [17:12] <anne> HH: get some stats, see what's out there;
  2581. # [17:12] <anne> sicking: I think HTML5 should be completely silent on this
  2582. # [17:12] <anne> sicking: I think that should be a separate work item
  2583. # [17:12] <hsivonen> q+
  2584. # [17:12] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  2585. # [17:13] <hhalpin> this is really important, someone should eventually sort this whole identity thing out.
  2586. # [17:13] <anne> sicking: we're sure to get something better eventually
  2587. # [17:13] * Parts: SallyC (sally.cain@81.253.19.215)
  2588. # [17:13] <anne> sicking: there might be some API that is needed but in general you'd like to have the security features separately designed
  2589. # [17:13] <MikeSmith> ack hsivonen
  2590. # [17:13] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2591. # [17:14] <anne> HS: I have a question about what candidates are out there other than OpenID, SAML
  2592. # [17:14] <hsivonen> SAML WebSSO
  2593. # [17:14] <Adam> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAML
  2594. # [17:14] <pimpbot> Title: Security Assertion Markup Language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at en.wikipedia.org)
  2595. # [17:14] <hhalpin> also, note that I recommended some tight liasoning with people from id and security fields.
  2596. # [17:14] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Quit: tlr)
  2597. # [17:15] <MikeSmith> q?
  2598. # [17:15] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2599. # [17:15] <anne> AB: MS has intorduced infocards
  2600. # [17:15] <anne> s/intorduced/introduced/
  2601. # [17:15] <MikeSmith> q?
  2602. # [17:15] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2603. # [17:15] <hhalpin> I always thought it was OpenID/Liberty Alliance and LiveID/Passport were the two big options in this space.
  2604. # [17:15] <hhalpin> There may be other experimental ones.
  2605. # [17:16] <hhalpin> +1 that HTML5 is interested in these issues.
  2606. # [17:16] <anne> TR: no particular input right now
  2607. # [17:17] <anne> MS: where do you think we are?
  2608. # [17:17] <hhalpin> Has Microsoft adopted OpenID anywhere? I thought it was possible, would HTML5 endorsement make a difference?
  2609. # [17:17] * Joins: aaronlev_ (chatzilla@92.230.135.158)
  2610. # [17:17] <anne> JR: I wished we would have made some progress on that, but it seems we need more research
  2611. # [17:17] <anne> MS: maybe discussion needs to continue in Web Apps?
  2612. # [17:17] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30)
  2613. # [17:17] <anne> IH: depends on the solution, not clear what the requirements are
  2614. # [17:17] * Quits: arun (arun@81.253.20.216) (Quit: arun)
  2615. # [17:18] <anne> JS: is it a W3C matter?
  2616. # [17:18] <anne> s/JS/sicking/
  2617. # [17:18] <anne> JR: IETF is waiting for W3C; it's a user agent issue
  2618. # [17:18] <MikeSmith> q+ tlr
  2619. # [17:18] * Zakim sees tlr on the speaker queue
  2620. # [17:18] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@92.227.22.115) (Ping timeout)
  2621. # [17:18] * aaronlev_ is now known as aaronlev
  2622. # [17:18] <CWilso> Actually, my understanding is infocards interoperates w/OpenID if desired
  2623. # [17:18] <anne> sicking: depends on the technical solution probably
  2624. # [17:18] <anne> sicking: I think it should be an effort solely concentrated on security
  2625. # [17:18] <CWilso> (And it's called CardSpace now, not infocards)
  2626. # [17:18] <MikeSmith> ack tlr
  2627. # [17:18] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2628. # [17:19] <adrianba> infocard/cardspace = http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/netframework/aa663320.aspx
  2629. # [17:19] <pimpbot> Title: Windows CardSpace (at msdn.microsoft.com)
  2630. # [17:19] <anne> TR: in principle that makes a lot of sense. (TR says he missed bits of the discussion) The one thing I'm wondering what problem you are looking at?
  2631. # [17:19] <hsivonen> q+
  2632. # [17:19] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  2633. # [17:19] <anne> JS: I don't see how headers solve the problem
  2634. # [17:19] * Hixie wonders whether jr's comments mean that IETF doesn't care about UAs :-)
  2635. # [17:20] <anne> JR: the issue is as follows. you do a GET request. server wants you to authenticate. can do a 200 with HTML form
  2636. # [17:20] <anne> ... works extremely badly with clients that are not HTML clients
  2637. # [17:20] <anne> ... or you can use 401 and then you've got a problem in HTML agents that they pop up a dialog most designers and people running servers don't like
  2638. # [17:20] <anne> ... both are bad
  2639. # [17:20] <MikeSmith> q+ Al
  2640. # [17:20] * Zakim sees hsivonen, Al on the speaker queue
  2641. # [17:21] <anne> ... you really don't want to reply with 200 OK if you require login
  2642. # [17:21] <hsivonen> q-
  2643. # [17:21] * Zakim sees Al on the speaker queue
  2644. # [17:21] <anne> IH: there's also sites where you can either login or not login
  2645. # [17:21] <anne> TR: the current HTTP auth mechanism are no longer state of the art (to be polite)
  2646. # [17:21] * timeless finds an alternate path that involves a flight for 200eur
  2647. # [17:21] <anne> TR: there is a question of what HTTP auth should look like
  2648. # [17:22] <anne> TR: there is also something like client certificates e.g. SSL
  2649. # [17:22] <hhalpin> CWilson - that was my understanding as well, but I was not sure if that had ever happened yet. Thus my point that if HTML5 gets in this space, then maybe asking some advice from experts from LiveID, Passport, Liberty, OpenID, etc. and some data is the way to go. Also, could this activity, which sounds large, be done at HTML5 or somewhere else that integrates with HTML5?
  2650. # [17:22] <anne> TR: [..] this is a rather large ocean. in the CABForum they are trying to find out what the obstacles are with client side PKI
  2651. # [17:23] <anne> TR: is assuming a working PKI; problems with e.g. business and social interaction
  2652. # [17:23] <anne> TR: there is a member submission from 1997 along these lines; might be useful
  2653. # [17:23] <anne> TR: assuming this will solve auth problems on large scale would be naive
  2654. # [17:23] <anne> TR: assuming it would solve phishing is massively naive
  2655. # [17:23] <anne> TR: this is a HARD problem
  2656. # [17:24] <anne> TR: the 1997 document is not solving that problem, I suggest to not rathole in this topic in this WG
  2657. # [17:24] <anne> TR: don't think this is the right community (no disrespect)
  2658. # [17:24] <anne> TR: one solution to look at is OAuth
  2659. # [17:25] <anne> TR: using HTTP and HTTP auth to pass authorization tokens around
  2660. # [17:25] <anne> TR: this you use to e.g. upload your Flickr photos
  2661. # [17:25] <anne> TR: will be discussed at IETF meeting in Minn... in the US
  2662. # [17:25] <adrianba> hhalpin, cardspace does work with openid - i have my openid in an infocard, it does require the site to do something extra to enable cards though
  2663. # [17:25] <anne> TR: I won't be there, pay attention at the IETF though
  2664. # [17:25] <anne> TR: they're attacking a useful problem; not saying it's attacking the same problem
  2665. # [17:26] <anne> s/same problem/all the problems discussed here/
  2666. # [17:26] <Julian_Reschke> http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/NOTE-authentform-19990203
  2667. # [17:26] <pimpbot> Title: User Agent Authentication Form Elements (at www.w3.org)
  2668. # [17:26] <anne> AG: the HTML processor in the browser is going to see an API
  2669. # [17:26] <anne> ... going to be disconnect point so you can't change schemes
  2670. # [17:26] <anne> ... you can annotate on that
  2671. # [17:26] * Joins: aroben_ (aroben@68.36.118.246)
  2672. # [17:26] <anne> ... would be easier if we had an XForms model
  2673. # [17:26] <anne> ... what's defined is what you can style
  2674. # [17:27] * Quits: tH (Rob@129.11.83.58) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.83-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406])
  2675. # [17:27] <anne> s/1997/1999/g
  2676. # [17:27] * timeless frowns maybe that flight is 800eur
  2677. # [17:27] <anne> ... scheme by scheme you get controls that the web author then can style
  2678. # [17:27] <anne> ... so first IETF, then HTML so you get the style
  2679. # [17:28] * Quits: noah (noah_mende@81.253.45.29) (Quit: noah)
  2680. # [17:28] <anne> TR: one problem with usability of passwords; password managers can log what passwords are entered when you login
  2681. # [17:28] * Quits: aroben (aroben@68.36.118.246) (Ping timeout)
  2682. # [17:29] <anne> TR: what can be useful is to distinguish the password fields for registration
  2683. # [17:29] <anne> TR: the user agent can take control and help out
  2684. # [17:29] <hsivonen> q+
  2685. # [17:29] * Zakim sees Al, hsivonen on the speaker queue
  2686. # [17:29] * Quits: mollydotcom_afk (mollyholzs@70.176.234.187) (Quit: Quitting!)
  2687. # [17:29] <MikeSmith> ack Al
  2688. # [17:29] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  2689. # [17:29] <Hixie> you can set pattern="" on type=password already in html5
  2690. # [17:29] <MikeSmith> ack hsivonen
  2691. # [17:29] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2692. # [17:29] <Hixie> there's no way to say it's for a new password though
  2693. # [17:30] <anne> HS: if you have passwords you can use these from any browser
  2694. # [17:30] <Adam> q+
  2695. # [17:30] * Zakim sees Adam on the speaker queue
  2696. # [17:30] <anne> HS: in countries were banks want some weird auth scheme, e.g. Java
  2697. # [17:30] <anne> HS: if you have a full browser but no binary plugins on a phone, you cannot get authenticated
  2698. # [17:31] <anne> HS: it's important that new mechanisms work on mobiles as well
  2699. # [17:31] <anne> HS: e.g. native OpenID support in the UA; but fallback for mobiles
  2700. # [17:32] <anne> TR: in order to compat phishing we need to [...]
  2701. # [17:32] <anne> TR: one way out of that would be to help people out in the interaction
  2702. # [17:32] * Quits: r12a (rishida@81.253.27.10) (Ping timeout)
  2703. # [17:32] <anne> TR: just taking the UI out will not solve that problem
  2704. # [17:33] <anne> TR: e.g. Google wants to style their logins forms to the pixel
  2705. # [17:33] <MikeSmith> ack Adam
  2706. # [17:33] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2707. # [17:34] <anne> AB: at boeing it would be really good if we got single sign on
  2708. # [17:34] <anne> AB: lots of different APIs that could make use of that
  2709. # [17:34] <anne> TR: you should point people to boeing presentations given at various concordia workshops
  2710. # [17:35] <MikeSmith> q?
  2711. # [17:35] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2712. # [17:35] <karl> http://projectconcordia.org/index.php/Main_Page
  2713. # [17:35] <Adam> s/single sing on/single sign on standard/
  2714. # [17:35] * Joins: tH (Rob@129.11.83.58)
  2715. # [17:36] * Quits: Roland_ (Roland@81.253.43.131) (Ping timeout)
  2716. # [17:36] <anne> Topic: AOB
  2717. # [17:37] <anne> MC: CMN said we should use DSSSL instead of CSS
  2718. # [17:37] <anne> [inappropriate questions about CMN here]
  2719. # [17:37] <anne> MS: adjourn
  2720. # [17:37] <hsivonen> CWilso channeled howcome to say 'no'
  2721. # [17:40] <smedero> rssagent, draft minutes
  2722. # [17:40] <smedero> erm
  2723. # [17:40] <smedero> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  2724. # [17:40] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-html-wg-minutes.html smedero
  2725. # [17:40] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG -- 23 Oct 2008 (at www.w3.org)
  2726. # [17:40] * smedero sighs
  2727. # [17:40] <gsnedders> http://www.w3.org/TR/HTTP-in-RDF/ fwiw!
  2728. # [17:40] <pimpbot> Title: HTTP Vocabulary in RDF (at www.w3.org)
  2729. # [17:41] <gsnedders> s/fwiw/ftw/
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  2788. # [21:28] <Lachy> marcos, yt?
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The end :)