/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-01-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jan 29 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  11. # [01:59] <karl> pfewww I was about to send a reply to maciej and I decided to delete it :) 82… ah no 86 messages were already too many.
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  13. # [02:13] <Lachy> does anyone else find it ironic that with the moratorium on discussing spec splitting still in effect, we're instead having a meta discussion about the moratorium itself?
  14. # [02:13] <Lachy> I wonder how that's any better
  15. # [02:13] <Hixie> what's the moratorium about again?
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  17. # [02:13] <Hixie> i mean, what can't we talk about?
  18. # [02:14] <Lachy> it's about why we should or should not split the spec into language vs. implementation specs
  19. # [02:14] <Hixie> oh
  20. # [02:14] <Hixie> i wish i knew why anyone would want to do that and what it would actually mean
  21. # [02:15] <Hixie> and why they've never asked for it for any other spec...
  22. # [02:15] <Hixie> anyway
  23. # [02:15] <Hixie> such a split would be silly
  24. # [02:15] <Lachy> because those who've asked for it are used to specs like HTML4, XHTML1 and XHTML2, which only specificy the conforming language
  25. # [02:15] <Hixie> that's not accurate
  26. # [02:16] <Lachy> well, it's a rough approximation
  27. # [02:16] <Hixie> HTML4 and XHTML2 define the language and the error handling and the processing requirements
  28. # [02:16] <Lachy> error handling?
  29. # [02:16] <Lachy> maybe a little
  30. # [02:16] <Hixie> (it's just that they do so in a woefully inadequate manner)
  31. # [02:17] <Hixie> (for both the language and the processing requirements)
  32. # [02:34] <Zeros> wouldn't XHTML2's error handling be mostly defined by the XML-ness of it?
  33. # [02:34] <Zeros> or lack of error handling as the case may be
  34. # [02:36] <Hixie> there's lots of possible errors other than syntax-level errors
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  36. # [02:51] <Lachy> MikeSmith, yt?
  37. # [02:55] <karl> http://www.w3.org/mid/0A077026-6D9C-4DCC-BD18-DF7336A923AD@gbiv.com
  38. # [02:55] <pimpbot> Title: HTML is a declarative mark-up language from Roy T. Fielding on 2009-01-29 (public-html@w3.org from January 2009) (at www.w3.org)
  39. # [02:58] <MikeSmith> Lachy: yeah
  40. # [02:59] <Lachy> MikeSmith, see http://www.w3.org/html/wg/markup-spec/#area.attrs.coords.rect - those coords links are broken. They're missing the fragment identifier #
  41. # [02:59] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5: The Markup Language (at www.w3.org)
  42. # [02:59] <MikeSmith> Lachy: thanks -- will fix it now
  43. # [03:00] <Lachy> though I'm not sure what they're meant to be linking to. I added the # manually and it took me back to the same spot. So they don't appear to go anywhere
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  45. # [03:02] <MikeSmith> Lachy: they're just intended as a convenience for people who want to link to/bookmark the descriptions
  46. # [03:02] <Lachy> ok
  47. # [03:03] <Lachy> I clicked on them expecting them to take me to a description of the syntax for the coords attribute value, but was out of luck
  48. # [03:03] <Lachy> from what I can tell, thats simply not defined
  49. # [03:04] <Lachy> wow, is Roy surprised by the fact that the name attribute on <a> is no longer considered conforming, or the fact that browsers still have to process it despite that?
  50. # [03:05] <karl> Lachy: mischaracterization of what Roy is showing
  51. # [03:05] <karl> :)
  52. # [03:06] <Lachy> ?
  53. # [03:06] <karl> Think out of your box
  54. # [03:07] <MikeSmith> Lachy: the "d:rectangle", etc., stuff should be links to datatype/microsyntax definitions. that part is a bug that I'll need to fix later
  55. # [03:07] <Lachy> you're being rather cryptic today
  56. # [03:07] <karl> Lachy: I guess the log of this channel unfortunately or fortunately gives borders to my expression
  57. # [03:09] <karl> Lachy: Roy is making a point on declarative markup, and shows that the spec is mainly defined through the eye of browsers, which I think too. You might not agree with that because you are in your own browser box (not a reproach).
  58. # [03:10] <Lachy> If Roy picked an attribute that was actually conforming, like for instance, the target attribute, he may have a point. Its definition isn't the easiest to understand from a web developer's perspective.
  59. # [03:10] <Lachy> "The target attribute, if present, must be a valid browsing context name or keyword. User agents use this name when following hyperlinks."
  60. # [03:10] <Hixie> this is all stuff that will be seen when i write the filtered view
  61. # [03:11] <karl> This is not markup :) exactly what Roy said
  62. # [03:14] <Lachy> yeah. It wouldn't hurt to have non-normative, explanatory descriptions of what attributes mean or what function they perform
  63. # [03:15] <Lachy> (although that will be in the authoring guide)
  64. # [03:15] <Hixie> any cases where that's missing are unintentional omissisons
  65. # [03:15] <Hixie> in particular, the APIs are especially bad about this
  66. # [03:16] <karl> I wonder why the fear of normative for a declarative markup. This mesmerizes me.
  67. # [03:16] <Lachy> yeah. For some attributes, it's not too bad actually. Like the seamless attribute description is quite good, as are the width and height attributes.
  68. # [03:17] <Lachy> well, perhaps it could be normative. Those 3 attrs have normative descriptions
  69. # [03:36] <MikeSmith> Lachy: I fixed the links -- thanks for the heads-up
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  85. # [07:44] <MikeSmith> http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=100758
  86. # [07:44] <pimpbot> Title: Bulgaria Bulgarian Company Competes with Explorer, Firefox with New Web Browser: Bulgarian Company Competes with Explorer, Firefox with New Web Browser (at www.novinite.com)
  87. # [07:44] <MikeSmith> [[
  88. # [07:45] <MikeSmith> Web Visions Black Label is "minimalistic" software for surfing the Internet. Its functions are really limited - it has only two menus - "File" and "Help".
  89. # [07:45] <MikeSmith> "The functions of the browser are limited on the consumer level because the mass consumer doesn't understand what all the settings in the other browsers are for. Our idea about creating this new browser was to make things easier for the users", the CEO of Creative Lines Group, Atanas Avkov, told the Pari Daily.
  90. # [07:45] <MikeSmith> ]]
  91. # [07:45] <MikeSmith> that has got to be some kind of put-on
  92. # [07:45] <MikeSmith> [[
  93. # [07:45] <MikeSmith> Web Visions is based on Internet Explorer, and was developed on Microsoft Visual Basic Express. It took Creative Lines Group six months to develop the new browser.
  94. # [07:45] <MikeSmith> ]]
  95. # [07:46] <MikeSmith> 3 months for the File menu, another 3 months for the Help menu
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  97. # [08:23] <hsivonen> is there a public record of Formal Objections to publishing Web Forms 2.0 from WAF?
  98. # [08:26] * Joins: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@68.50.195.181)
  99. # [09:10] <zcorpan> "the audience for this draft is producers of HTML documents who want to know what the definition of a conformant document is." - i wonder why the audience section doesn't just say this
  100. # [09:12] <zcorpan> oh he revised the section
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  104. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: you mentioned yesterday that you were waiting for a response from me on questions you posted to the list
  105. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> If there are other messages you're looking for me to respond to specifically, other than the one I replied to just now, please let me know
  106. # [10:08] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: no, that one was the one I meant. Thanks.
  107. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> OK
  108. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> I've got to drop off soon to go do short talk at a Chrome "out of beta" event that's going here tonight, but back on later
  109. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> and will be around for the telcon
  110. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> and will try to remain fully awake
  111. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> I slept in until 10am this morning, so hopefully that'll help
  112. # [10:11] <hsivonen> my regrets for not being able to make it to the telecon
  113. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> oh
  114. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> was hoping you could be on
  115. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> is the time bad for you, or is it just that you have conflict today?
  116. # [10:12] <hsivonen> I just keep wondering what the demand you saw was way back when the language spec project started, because back then, I don't recall seeing much publicly voiced demand. A couple of people, IIRC.
  117. # [10:12] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I have a specific conflict today.
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  119. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: the discussions within the group itself were not the only place where people voiced some demand
  120. # [10:15] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: where else was demand voiced?
  121. # [10:15] * Joins: trackbot (trackbot@128.30.52.30)
  122. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> for one, from people I talked with at events over the last couple years
  123. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> for another, from people who I'd corresponded with directly and tried to get interested in joining the HTML WG
  124. # [10:17] <hsivonen> I see
  125. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> as I guess you probably know, there are a lot of people who have just stayed away from the group completely
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  128. # [10:19] <hsivonen> Is normativity of the markup document critical for their participation?
  129. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> no, I don't think it is
  130. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> not at this point at least
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  132. # [10:21] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: so the document could be positioned as an informative redacted view into normative text without jeopardising the goals of the document?
  133. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> I personally think having it be informative would dilute the goals of the document, but I think there's value in having a document like this regardless
  134. # [10:23] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: which goal would be diluted?
  135. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> its authority
  136. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> the goal of being authoritative
  137. # [10:25] <hsivonen> to me, it seems like a redaction of a broader document shouldn't be authoritative, since it omits something
  138. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> Yeah, I can see that
  139. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> though it can be seen as authoritative at least for the limited purpose it is intended for
  140. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> anyway, if this document can help to bring in involvement for some experience and smart people who have stayed away so far, I'd hope it can be valuable at the very least for that purpose
  141. # [10:28] <hsivonen> if readers understand that it's a redaction even though it imports normative-looking prose, I think they'd adjust their expectations more appropriately than if the document is put forward as normative without calling specific attention to it being a redaction
  142. # [10:30] * Parts: anne (annevk@213.52.39.8)
  143. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> whatever kind of agreement we get from the group as far as how the document should be positioned, I am very willing to adjust the Status section and whatever other parts the document to reflect that agreement
  144. # [10:31] <hsivonen> cool
  145. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> anyway, I really do have to drop off
  146. # [10:31] <hsivonen> later
  147. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> I'll be back around in a couple hours or so
  148. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> chers
  149. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> cheers
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  152. # [10:51] <takkaria> if tests were normative and used JavaScript, that would amount to making JS support normative
  153. # [10:52] <hsivonen> takkaria: that would lead to some interesting ideological discussions
  154. # [10:53] <takkaria> I know which side Roy would be on. :)
  155. # [10:55] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6490] New: Event handler attributes should ignore event's interface" ( message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jan/0042.html>
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  164. # [11:38] <takkaria> hmm, the testing discussion on www-style is interesting
  165. # [11:38] <takkaria> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Jan/0344.html
  166. # [11:38] <pimpbot> Title: Minutes, 21 Jan 2009 CSS WG telcon from Chris Lilley on 2009-01-21 (www-style@w3.org from January 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  167. # [11:39] <takkaria> making it easy to review tests is a goal, I guess
  168. # [11:42] <takkaria> setting up some kind of simple +1/-1 commenting system shouldn't be too hard
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  178. # [12:47] * marcos_ is now known as marcos
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  181. # [12:55] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6491] New: not supported" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jan/0043.html>
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  183. # [13:03] <deane> anne: yt?
  184. # [13:10] * Parts: deane (opera@121.98.190.61)
  185. # [13:10] <anne> yo
  186. # [13:11] <anne> but you're not
  187. # [13:11] * anne wonders if pimpbot is parsing/stripping HTML in some way
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  190. # [13:56] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6493] New: Use encoding of POSTing document for POST response if meta prescan fails" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jan/0044.html>
  191. # [14:00] * zcorpan can mostly guess correctly who filed the bug by looking at the summary
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  193. # [14:11] <karl> is there an xml or xhtml version of html 5 spec somewhere?
  194. # [14:11] <karl> or the tool to create it
  195. # [14:13] <hsivonen> karl: the Validator.nu HTML Parser comes with a tool that should work with the spec, too.
  196. # [14:13] <Philip> karl: There isn't one (as far as I'm aware), but any HTML-to-XHTML tool should work, like I guess Tidy or html5lib's parse.py
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  203. # [15:56] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6493] Use encoding of POSTing document for POST response if meta prescan fails" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jan/0045.html>
  204. # [16:08] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  205. # [16:26] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6494] New: Make the requiredness about alt more obvious" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jan/0047.html> ** "[Bug 6493] Use encoding of POSTing document for POST response if meta prescan fails" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jan/0046.html>
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  211. # [16:56] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6496] New: Allow to act as a caption" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jan/0048.html>
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  213. # [17:00] * Dashiva read that as 'captain'
  214. # [17:03] <jgraham> Delusions of grandeur again?
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  216. # [17:09] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: are you maintaining pimpbot? it's stripping tags :)
  217. # [17:09] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: yeah, I know
  218. # [17:09] <zcorpan> ok
  219. # [17:11] <MikeSmith> I will at some point try to fix that
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  221. # [17:12] <Philip> We don't want any stripping in this channel
  222. # [17:14] * zcorpan changes topic to '<Philip> We don't want any stripping in this channel - This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  223. # [17:18] <Dashiva> So if it wasn't logged, stripping would be okay
  224. # [17:20] <Philip> krijnh: Could you depart for a minute while I remove my markup?
  225. # [17:21] <jgraham> This is, after all, a family chennel, what with gsnedders around and all
  226. # [17:24] <takkaria> you can only log if you pay extra
  227. # [17:27] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6497] New: Examples using title="" with line breaks" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jan/0050.html> ** "[Bug 6493] Use encoding of POSTing document for POST response if meta prescan fails" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jan/0049.html>
  228. # [17:31] * DanC tries to get something on table headers done before the telcon...
  229. # [17:35] <DanC> ah... validator.nu is thumbs-up on my test from WCAG2 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jun/att-0334/tblh.html__charset_UTF-8
  230. # [17:35] <pimpbot> Title: A table with multiple rows of headers (at lists.w3.org)
  231. # [17:36] <DanC> somebody help me find the revision to the spec where that went from invalid to valid? and/or a message from hixie announcing that change?
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  233. # [17:37] <takkaria> http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=site%3Ablog.whatwg.org+%22this+week%22+headers
  234. # [17:37] <pimpbot> Title: site:blog.whatwg.org "this week" headers - Google Search (at www.google.co.uk)
  235. # [17:38] * DanC puts aside http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker to look there...
  236. # [17:38] <pimpbot> Title: (X)HTML5 Tracking (at html5.org)
  237. # [17:38] <zcorpan> DanC: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=1374&to=1375 ?
  238. # [17:38] <pimpbot> Title: (X)HTML5 Tracking (at html5.org)
  239. # [17:39] * DanC hunts for a date for http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=1374&to=1375
  240. # [17:39] <DanC> ok http://blog.whatwg.org/this-week-in-html-5-episode-17 cites 20 Dec http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Dec/0175.html
  241. # [17:39] <pimpbot> Title: The WHATWG Blog » Blog Archive » This Week in HTML 5 - Episode 17 (at blog.whatwg.org)
  242. # [17:39] <zcorpan> 2008-03-18 22:13
  243. # [17:40] <anne> interesting, maybe we should patch the tracker to list the date on the diff page as well
  244. # [17:40] <DanC> please do
  245. # [17:40] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
  246. # [17:40] * billyjackass is now known as MikeSmith
  247. # [17:40] <zcorpan> there's also http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=1395&to=1396 2008-03-23 19:25, http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=1974&to=1975 2008-08-04 09:02
  248. # [17:40] <pimpbot> Title: (X)HTML5 Tracking (at html5.org)
  249. # [17:41] <DanC> long time from March 18th to Dec 20; that doesn't seem right
  250. # [17:41] <DanC> the change has to be after 25 jun http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jun/0334.html
  251. # [17:41] <pimpbot> Title: headers on th too or just td? from Dan Connolly on 2008-06-26 (public-html@w3.org from June 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  252. # [17:43] <zcorpan> DanC: that discusses <th headers> which your page doesn't use
  253. # [17:43] <DanC> huh?
  254. # [17:43] <zcorpan> DanC: <td headers> has been allowed since the beforementioned checking
  255. # [17:43] * Quits: rubys (rubys@208.253.64.131) (Quit: Leaving.)
  256. # [17:43] * DanC can't seem to keep all the relevant details in his head at the same time
  257. # [17:44] <zcorpan> s/g$//
  258. # [17:44] <DanC> <th id="e1" headers="e">1</th>
  259. # [17:44] <DanC> quoting from http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H43.html
  260. # [17:44] <pimpbot> Title: H43: Using id and headers attributes to associate data cells with header cells in data tables | Techniques for WCAG 2.0 (at www.w3.org)
  261. # [17:44] <jgraham> DanC: If the only feature you are looking at is td @headers that has been allowed for some time
  262. # [17:45] <DanC> no, it's th/@headers
  263. # [17:45] <jgraham> th @headers has been allowed since ~20th December
  264. # [17:45] <zcorpan> DanC: it appears your page has just <th id="e1">1</th>
  265. # [17:45] <DanC> and it seems I dropped that between the WCAG 2 example and my proposed test case
  266. # [17:45] * Joins: ChrisWilson (cwilso@131.107.0.71)
  267. # [17:45] <DanC> ok, thanks for catching that. I need to work more on my test materials before making my proposal
  268. # [17:46] <DanC> logger, pointer?
  269. # [17:46] <jgraham> http://james.html5.org/tables/table_inspector.py?algorithm=html5c&uri=&input_type=type_source&;source=%3Ctable%3E%0D%0A+++%3Ctr%3E%0D%0A+++++%3Cth+rowspan%3D%222%22+id%3D%22h%22%3EHomework%3C%2Fth%3E%0D%0A+++++%3Cth+colspan%3D%223%22+id%3D%22e%22%3EExams%3C%2Fth%3E%0D%0A+++++%3Cth+colspan%3D%223%22+id%3D%22p%22%3EProjects%3C%2Fth%3E%0D%0A+++%3C%2Ftr%3E%0D%0A+++%3Ctr%3E%0D%0A+++++%3Cth+id%3D%22e1%22+headers%3D%22e%22%3E1%3C%2Fth%3E%0D%0A+++++%3Cth+id%3D%22e2%
  270. # [17:46] <Lachy> DanC, you might be interested to see the changes I've made to the authoring guide today, which we've been discussing in #whatwg http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/
  271. # [17:46] <smedero> http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/commit-watchers-whatwg.org/2008/001721.html
  272. # [17:46] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 Reference (at dev.w3.org)
  273. # [17:46] <pimpbot> Title: [html5] r2547 - [act] (1) * Header cells can now themselves have headers. * Reversed the way the [...] (at lists.whatwg.org)
  274. # [17:46] <jgraham> Er, that probably din't work
  275. # [17:46] <zcorpan> DanC: then it's probably http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=2546&to=2547 2008-12-20 09:21
  276. # [17:46] <pimpbot> Title: (X)HTML5 Tracking (at html5.org)
  277. # [17:47] <DanC> action-72: see #html-wg discussion 29 Jan just before 10:44 am central
  278. # [17:47] * trackbot attempting to add comment notes to ACTION-72.
  279. # [17:47] <trackbot> ACTION-72 propose to close this issue based on recent HTML 5 spec draft and test materials from WCAG 2 notes added
  280. # [17:47] <jgraham> http://tinyurl.com/az6xu4
  281. # [17:47] <pimpbot> Title: Table Inspector (at tinyurl.com)
  282. # [17:47] <jgraham> DanC: ^ is what the spec makes of your example
  283. # [17:47] <jgraham> (the one with th@headers)
  284. # [17:48] <DanC> table inspector is nifty
  285. # [17:51] * DanC read many of the messages about decisions to publish, but not all; hopes Sam/Chris/Mike read more than I did
  286. # [17:52] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  287. # [17:52] <DanC> Zakim, this will be html
  288. # [17:52] <Zakim> ok, DanC; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
  289. # [17:52] * DanC changes topic to 'HTML WG Weekly teleconference http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2009JanMar/0014.html (This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )'
  290. # [17:52] * ChrisWilson the five BILLION messages in the last two days? umm, yeah, no.
  291. # [17:55] * Lachy will call in shortly
  292. # [17:55] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
  293. # [17:55] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  294. # [17:55] * ChrisWilson not really, I just joined the bridge
  295. # [17:55] <ChrisWilson> Zakim, Microsoft is me
  296. # [17:55] <Zakim> +ChrisWilson; got it
  297. # [17:58] * ChrisWilson is sick as a DOG this morning, btw. I don't say that to get sympathy, just to explain what's going on if I stop being lucid. Well, more than normal.
  298. # [17:59] <pimpbot> planet: HTML 5's Websockets <http://www.reddit.com/r/browsers/comments/7tcyb/html_5s_websockets/>
  299. # [17:59] <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
  300. # [18:00] * trackbot is starting a teleconference
  301. # [18:00] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  302. # [18:00] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/01/29-html-wg-irc
  303. # [18:00] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  304. # [18:00] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  305. # [18:00] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML
  306. # [18:00] <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
  307. # [18:00] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
  308. # [18:00] <trackbot> Date: 29 January 2009
  309. # [18:00] <Zakim> +Julian
  310. # [18:00] <Zakim> -ChrisWilson
  311. # [18:00] <Zakim> +ChrisWilson
  312. # [18:00] * DanC nominates Julian to scribe
  313. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
  314. # [18:01] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
  315. # [18:01] <Zakim> +Mike
  316. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  317. # [18:01] <Zakim> On the phone I see ChrisWilson, Julian, Mike
  318. # [18:02] * smedero sends regrets (is tied up on another phone call...)
  319. # [18:03] <DanC> regrets+ smedero
  320. # [18:03] <Zakim> +Masinter
  321. # [18:03] * Joins: oedipus (oedipus@71.250.74.3)
  322. # [18:04] * Joins: deane (opera@121.98.190.61)
  323. # [18:04] <oedipus> GJR offers aural regrets - has a nasty respiratory infection but will be here in IRC
  324. # [18:04] <Zakim> +??P6
  325. # [18:04] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-work
  326. # [18:04] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
  327. # [18:04] <Zakim> +DanC
  328. # [18:04] <Lachy> Zakim, I am ??P6
  329. # [18:04] <Zakim> +Lachy; got it
  330. # [18:04] <DanC> regrets+ GJR
  331. # [18:04] * oedipus thanks DanC
  332. # [18:04] * Joins: masinter (user@192.150.10.200)
  333. # [18:04] * DanC Zakim, who's on the phone?
  334. # [18:04] * Zakim sees on the phone: ChrisWilson, Julian, Mike, Masinter, Lachy, DanC
  335. # [18:06] <Lachy> agenda?
  336. # [18:06] * Zakim sees nothing on the agenda
  337. # [18:06] * Joins: Joshue (Joshue@86.45.208.167)
  338. # [18:06] <ChrisWilson> agenda+ review open issues
  339. # [18:06] * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
  340. # [18:06] <ChrisWilson> agenda+ review pending review items
  341. # [18:06] * Zakim notes agendum 2 added
  342. # [18:06] <ChrisWilson> agenda+ review overdue action items
  343. # [18:06] * Zakim notes agendum 3 added
  344. # [18:07] <ChrisWilson> agenda+ ask for additional agenda items
  345. # [18:07] * Zakim notes agendum 4 added
  346. # [18:07] <Lachy> do you want to discuss the authoring guide today?
  347. # [18:07] <DanC> action-34?
  348. # [18:07] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-34
  349. # [18:07] <trackbot> ACTION-34 -- Lachlan Hunt to prepare "Web Developer's Guide to HTML5" for publication in some way, as discussed on 2007-11-28 phone conference -- due 2009-01-22 -- OPEN
  350. # [18:07] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/34
  351. # [18:07] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-34 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  352. # [18:07] <ChrisWilson> yup. That's action-34, showing up as overdue.
  353. # [18:08] <ChrisWilson> Need a scribe?
  354. # [18:08] <ChrisWilson> Any volunteers
  355. # [18:08] <oedipus> zakim, choose a victim
  356. # [18:08] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Masinter
  357. # [18:08] <ChrisWilson> Bueller... Bueller... Bueller...
  358. # [18:08] <Lachy> scribenick Lachy
  359. # [18:08] <ChrisWilson> agenda?
  360. # [18:08] * Zakim sees 4 items remaining on the agenda:
  361. # [18:08] * Zakim 1. review open issues [from ChrisWilson]
  362. # [18:08] * Zakim 2. review pending review items [from ChrisWilson]
  363. # [18:08] * Zakim 3. review overdue action items [from ChrisWilson]
  364. # [18:08] * Zakim 4. ask for additional agenda items [from ChrisWilson]
  365. # [18:08] * DanC thinks the robot needs a colon...
  366. # [18:08] <ChrisWilson> zakim, take up item 4
  367. # [18:08] <Zakim> agendum 4. "ask for additional agenda items" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
  368. # [18:08] <DanC> scribenick: Lachy
  369. # [18:09] <ChrisWilson> Anyone have anything to discuss today that's not in the tracker?
  370. # [18:09] <oedipus> q+
  371. # [18:09] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
  372. # [18:09] <ChrisWilson> ack oedipus
  373. # [18:09] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  374. # [18:09] <ChrisWilson> yeeees?
  375. # [18:09] <oedipus> how to log my D for DIALOGUE proposal -- issue, bug, what?
  376. # [18:09] <Lachy> GJR: If Sam gets here, I wouldn't mind a discussion of argumentation style on the mailing list
  377. # [18:10] <masinter> s/GJR/Larry
  378. # [18:10] <DanC> s/GJR:/Larry:/
  379. # [18:10] <oedipus> ARIA already has aria-dialog deployed and dialog is a programmatic term, dialogue is a homonym, D is cleanest solution
  380. # [18:10] * Quits: zcorpan (zcorpan@88.131.66.80) (Quit: zcorpan)
  381. # [18:10] * DanC wonders if the bot groks without the 3rd /
  382. # [18:10] * Lachy masinter I thought oedipus was acked, so I assumed it was he who spoke
  383. # [18:11] <ChrisWilson> oedipus: Add an issue, and since you've made the proposal, I would add an item to collect feedback with an end date - at that point, we should review and hand over to editor if we have consensus
  384. # [18:11] * Quits: myakura (myakura@221.191.119.20) (Quit: Leaving...)
  385. # [18:11] <ChrisWilson> s/item/action item/
  386. # [18:11] <Zakim> + +1.519.378.aaaa
  387. # [18:11] <DanC> Zakim, aaaa is MurrayM
  388. # [18:11] <Zakim> +MurrayM; got it
  389. # [18:11] * oedipus the third / isn't necessary unless you want to do a G (global) change
  390. # [18:12] * ChrisWilson thanks oedipus. perhaps I shouldn't make all items action items.
  391. # [18:12] <ChrisWilson> zakim, close item 4
  392. # [18:12] <Zakim> agendum 4, ask for additional agenda items, closed
  393. # [18:12] <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
  394. # [18:12] <Zakim> 1. review open issues [from ChrisWilson]
  395. # [18:12] <ChrisWilson> zakim, take up item 1
  396. # [18:12] <Zakim> agendum 1. "review open issues" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
  397. # [18:12] <oedipus> ChrisWilson: i am not on the issue logging team anymore - how to add?
  398. # [18:13] <DanC> Topic: ISSUE-65: HTML 5 spec update after 10 June 2008
  399. # [18:13] * Joins: rubys (rubys@216.239.45.19)
  400. # [18:13] <Lachy> CW: DanC, please get Gregory added to the issue logging system
  401. # [18:13] <DanC> Topic: ISSUE-65: HTML 5 spec update after 10 June 2008
  402. # [18:13] <Lachy> CW: I had an action to send mail to WG about issuing a new WD
  403. # [18:13] <masinter> I raised an objection
  404. # [18:13] <Lachy> CW: Everyone in agreement about new WD
  405. # [18:13] <oedipus> ChrisWilson: thank you
  406. # [18:13] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  407. # [18:14] <Lachy> Larry: I raised an objection on the mailing list
  408. # [18:14] * dbaron RRSAgent, pointer?
  409. # [18:14] * RRSAgent See http://www.w3.org/2009/01/29-html-wg-irc#T17-11-48
  410. # [18:14] * shepazu Zakim, call shepazu
  411. # [18:14] * Zakim ok, shepazu; the call is being made
  412. # [18:14] <Zakim> +Shepazu
  413. # [18:14] <Lachy> Larry: I want the spec to be held to the same level of concensus as Mike's proposal
  414. # [18:14] * dbaron Zakim, passcode?
  415. # [18:14] * Zakim saw 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152) given for the conference code, dbaron
  416. # [18:14] <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
  417. # [18:14] <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] has David_Baron
  418. # [18:14] <Zakim> +David_Baron; got it
  419. # [18:15] <Lachy> LH: The difference is that HTML5 has already been through FPWD status, and had a WG vote
  420. # [18:15] <Lachy> Larry: I think a new version needs more concesus than the previous
  421. # [18:16] * DanC suspects the level of consensus around the html5 spec may very well be increasing; wonders if it's worth collecting more data
  422. # [18:16] <masinter> new features shouldn't be added until they are agreed
  423. # [18:16] <Lachy> CW: I'd like to think new WD's would increase the level of concensus
  424. # [18:16] <Lachy> CW: 2 options: 1. publish HTML5 now as another WD, 2. Send another poll to the group
  425. # [18:17] <Lachy> LH: Opposed to doing another poll
  426. # [18:17] * rubys prefers option 1
  427. # [18:17] <Lachy> Larry: you could also publish over my objection.
  428. # [18:17] * oedipus rubys, your comments aren't logged if you use /me
  429. # [18:17] <rubys> I prefer option 1
  430. # [18:18] * rubys not able to dial in... participating as best I can via IRC
  431. # [18:18] * DanC hopes MikeSmith has bandwidth to handle the publication mechanichs
  432. # [18:18] <deane> I support option one
  433. # [18:18] <ChrisWilson> I believe we have sufficient concensus to publish then.
  434. # [18:18] <MikeSmith> DanC: yeah, I can
  435. # [18:18] <oedipus> q+ to ask what would the poll ask - release or no?
  436. # [18:18] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
  437. # [18:19] <masinter> sufficient agreement, perhaps?
  438. # [18:19] <masinter> IETF uses 'rough consensus'
  439. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> there's not much that needs to be done as far as the HTML5 draft.. it's already ready to publish
  440. # [18:19] <Lachy> DanC: I think you're making a decision over someone's objection. I don't think we have concensus
  441. # [18:19] <ChrisWilson> s/concensus/support
  442. # [18:19] <dbaron> The process document is also pretty clear that concensus != unanimity.
  443. # [18:19] <DanC> yup
  444. # [18:19] <ChrisWilson> we do not have unanimous consensus, Larry did object.
  445. # [18:19] <oedipus> q?
  446. # [18:19] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
  447. # [18:19] <DanC> "sufficient support" works.
  448. # [18:20] <shepazu> s/sufficient concensus /support support/
  449. # [18:20] <dbaron> http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/policies.html#Consensus
  450. # [18:20] <pimpbot> Title: 3 General Policies for W3C Groups (at www.w3.org)
  451. # [18:20] <ChrisWilson> ack oed
  452. # [18:20] <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to ask what would the poll ask - release or no?
  453. # [18:20] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  454. # [18:20] <ChrisWilson> ah
  455. # [18:20] <ChrisWilson> yes, I think that would effectively be the question
  456. # [18:20] <dbaron> Though I guess it does define consensus as without objection.
  457. # [18:21] <shepazu> yes, concensus != unanimity, but it implies that there are also no objections
  458. # [18:21] * Quits: xover (xover@193.157.66.22) (Ping timeout)
  459. # [18:21] * Quits: laplink (link@193.157.66.242) (Ping timeout)
  460. # [18:21] <ChrisWilson> okay. I declare a rathole, will try not to use term concensus, move on. :)
  461. # [18:21] <DanC> +1 publish diff doc as well
  462. # [18:22] <shepazu> concensus == everyone can live with it (I think)
  463. # [18:22] <oedipus> [fyi] another poll is a waste of time; we shouldn't be afraid to publish, because the introductary verbiage says: this is a work in progress, and other disclaimers -- let the public see what has been done and let them (and the WG) react to the new draft
  464. # [18:22] <rubys> +1 also to diff doc
  465. # [18:22] <Lachy> MS: We should also publish Anne's Differences doc
  466. # [18:22] <oedipus> plus 1 to DIFF doc
  467. # [18:22] <ChrisWilson> oedipus, I think the feeling is that a poll isn't really cost effective, as you said.
  468. # [18:22] <masinter> i have no objection to publishing the diff doc
  469. # [18:22] * shepazu @ChrisWilson, not sure we have consensus on the use of the word consensus
  470. # [18:22] <DanC> consensus = sufficient support and no objections. consensus is valued but not required for W3C WG decisions.
  471. # [18:22] <dbaron> s/concensus/consensus/g
  472. # [18:22] * ChrisWilson smacks shepazu. :)
  473. # [18:23] * oedipus shepazu, you don't have my consent -- i have to be of the age of consent first
  474. # [18:23] <Lachy> CW: Do we need to get additional support, or consider it publishable?
  475. # [18:23] * DanC gathers we're RESOLVED: to publish the HTML 5 spec and the diff document
  476. # [18:23] <Lachy> DanC: I think we have enough support to publish
  477. # [18:23] <Joshue> JOC: I also don't mind publishing the differences doc
  478. # [18:23] <masinter> i'm strongly in favor of publishing the diff document, even if the document itself weren't published
  479. # [18:23] * DanC would like mike to take the action to publish them
  480. # [18:24] * DanC wonders if he should put this on the record: RESOLVED: to publish the HTML 5 spec and the diff document
  481. # [18:24] <DanC> RESOLVED: to publish the HTML 5 spec and the diff document
  482. # [18:24] <ChrisWilson> issue-59?
  483. # [18:24] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-59
  484. # [18:24] <trackbot> ISSUE-59 -- Should the HTML WG produce a separate document that is a normative language reference and if so what are the requirements -- OPEN
  485. # [18:24] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/59
  486. # [18:24] * rubys cheers
  487. # [18:24] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-59 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  488. # [18:24] <Lachy> ACTION: MikeSmith to publish the spec and diff
  489. # [18:24] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  490. # [18:24] * RRSAgent records action 1
  491. # [18:24] <trackbot> Created ACTION-101 - Publish the spec and diff [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2009-02-05].
  492. # [18:24] <DanC> ACTION: Mike publish update of html5 spec and "differences from html 4"
  493. # [18:24] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  494. # [18:24] * RRSAgent records action 2
  495. # [18:24] <trackbot> Created ACTION-102 - Publish update of html5 spec and \"differences from html 4\" [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2009-02-05].
  496. # [18:24] * Lachy oops
  497. # [18:24] <DanC> close action-102
  498. # [18:24] * trackbot attempting to close ACTION-102.
  499. # [18:24] <trackbot> ACTION-102 Publish update of html5 spec and \"differences from html 4\" closed
  500. # [18:25] <ChrisWilson> action-77
  501. # [18:25] <DanC> Topic: ISSUE-59 (normative-language-reference)
  502. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> action-77?
  503. # [18:25] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-77
  504. # [18:25] <trackbot> ACTION-77 -- Michael(tm) Smith to lead HTML WG to response to TAG discussion and report back to TAG -- due 2009-01-23 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  505. # [18:25] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/77
  506. # [18:25] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-77 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  507. # [18:25] <DanC> (action-77 is a sort of placeholder here)
  508. # [18:26] <Lachy> CW: Let's defer this discussion about publishing HTML5: The Markup Langauge till next week
  509. # [18:26] <oedipus> [fwiw] plus 1 to publishing HTML5: The Markup Language in tandem with the PWD and the diff doc
  510. # [18:27] <Lachy> CW: Does anyone think we can do anything productive today on this topic?
  511. # [18:27] <rubys> not me
  512. # [18:28] <deane> no
  513. # [18:28] <oedipus> probably not
  514. # [18:28] <oedipus> [fwiw] this is one case where i don't mind executive decision by fiat
  515. # [18:29] <Joshue> JOC" +1 also to publishing the HTML 5 The Markup Language with the PWD and diff doc also
  516. # [18:29] <ChrisWilson> issue-54 and action-91?
  517. # [18:29] <ChrisWilson> issue-54?
  518. # [18:29] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-54
  519. # [18:29] <trackbot> ISSUE-54 -- tools that can't generate <!DOCTYPE html> -- OPEN
  520. # [18:29] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/54
  521. # [18:29] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-54 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  522. # [18:29] <ChrisWilson> action-91?
  523. # [18:29] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-91
  524. # [18:29] <trackbot> ACTION-91 -- Sam Ruby to propose 'legacy-compat' and report on feedback -- due 2009-01-29 -- OPEN
  525. # [18:29] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/91
  526. # [18:29] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-91 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  527. # [18:29] <DanC> Topic: ISSUE-54 (doctype-legacy-compat): tools that can't generate <!DOCTYPE html>
  528. # [18:29] <rubys> I think it it time to turn the feedback received over to the editor
  529. # [18:29] <rubys> we seem to have a number of options that nobody can find an issue with
  530. # [18:30] <rubys> all use SYSTEM, most use about:
  531. # [18:30] <masinter> i'm not sure the precondtions have been met
  532. # [18:30] <rubys> beyond that, I'd like to leave it to the editors discretion
  533. # [18:30] <masinter> the "about:" URI scheme registration isn't complete
  534. # [18:30] <Lachy> masinter, what preconditions?
  535. # [18:30] <masinter> it's in progress, but hasn't been finished
  536. # [18:30] <rubys> we can certainly review whatever is selected before publishing
  537. # [18:30] <rubys> define finished in this context?
  538. # [18:31] <Lachy> Larry: The registration hasn't been submitted to IANA yet
  539. # [18:31] <masinter> or has it?
  540. # [18:31] <Lachy> ... for about: URI
  541. # [18:31] <Julian> q+
  542. # [18:31] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  543. # [18:31] <ChrisWilson> ack J
  544. # [18:31] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  545. # [18:31] <rubys> I am ok with it going into a draft with the understanding that an IANA registration will be pursued
  546. # [18:32] <DanC> (I suggest Larry or Julian take an action to track registration)
  547. # [18:32] <Lachy> Julian: I'm not sure the completion state of registration is a show stopper
  548. # [18:32] <masinter> i agree it isn't
  549. # [18:33] <Lachy> Larry: The IETF has a process that needs to be followed, and should be registered first. But I'm fine with putting it in tentatively
  550. # [18:33] <Julian> q+
  551. # [18:33] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  552. # [18:33] <DanC> +1 move ISSUE-54 (doctype-legacy-compat) to PENDINGREVIEW (i.e. hand it to the editor) contingent on registration of about:
  553. # [18:33] <Lachy> CW: I think either Larry or Julian should take an action to track the progress of registration
  554. # [18:33] <ChrisWilson> ack j
  555. # [18:33] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  556. # [18:33] <Lachy> Julian: I think Lachlan is an author
  557. # [18:34] <gsnedders> There is other stuff that is spending IANA registration, FWIW.
  558. # [18:34] <Lachy> LH: I am
  559. # [18:34] <masinter> should take less than a month, because it is 'expert review'
  560. # [18:35] <Lachy> ACTION: Lachlan to track registration of about: URI scheme
  561. # [18:35] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  562. # [18:35] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Lachlan
  563. # [18:35] * RRSAgent records action 3
  564. # [18:35] * Joins: xover (xover@193.157.66.22)
  565. # [18:35] <Lachy> ACTION: Lachy to track registration of about: URI scheme
  566. # [18:35] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  567. # [18:35] * RRSAgent records action 4
  568. # [18:35] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Lachy
  569. # [18:35] <ChrisWilson> Sam, it sounds like you can go ahead and pass off to editor on action-91.
  570. # [18:35] <Lachy> wtf?
  571. # [18:35] * DanC adds lachlan and gregory...
  572. # [18:35] * Joins: laplink (link@193.157.66.242)
  573. # [18:35] <Lachy> ACTION: Lachlan to track registration of about: URI scheme
  574. # [18:35] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  575. # [18:35] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Lachlan
  576. # [18:35] * RRSAgent records action 5
  577. # [18:35] <rubys> will do
  578. # [18:35] * oedipus thanks DanC
  579. # [18:35] * Lachy ok, fix it later
  580. # [18:36] <oedipus> trackbot, status?
  581. # [18:36] * trackbot knows about the following 13 users: Michael(tm), Chris, Ben, Matthew, Joshue, Dan, Larry, Henri, Sam, Doug, Steve, Shawn, Julian
  582. # [18:36] * Lachy I missed that. Please scribe what you said DanC
  583. # [18:37] * DanC ok
  584. # [18:37] * Joins: hyatt (hyatt@98.201.21.231)
  585. # [18:37] <ChrisWilson> Lachy: Dan's action-72 isn't due until tomorrow, and he's not quite done, so we'll discuss next week.
  586. # [18:37] <DanC> DanC: I think Hickson's proposal of 20 Dec satisfies all concerned re table headers; I just want to dot a few i's and cross a few t's, then I'll send the "are we all agreed?" msg
  587. # [18:38] <ChrisWilson> It looks like no further actions on open issues are due.
  588. # [18:38] <ChrisWilson> action-78?
  589. # [18:38] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-78
  590. # [18:38] <trackbot> ACTION-78 -- Larry Masinter to suggestion text for 1.5.4 Relationship to Flash, Silverlight, XUL and similar proprietary languages -- due 2009-01-14 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  591. # [18:38] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/78
  592. # [18:38] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-78 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  593. # [18:38] <DanC> Topic: 1.5.4 Relationship to Flash, Silverlight, XUL and similar proprietary languages
  594. # [18:38] * DanC hunts for Lachy's msg...
  595. # [18:39] <Lachy> LH: There was a proposal sent to mailing list to revise section 1.5.4. Hixie said he'd get to it about Q3 this year
  596. # [18:39] <ChrisWilson> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jan/0238.html
  597. # [18:39] <pimpbot> Title: Re: ACTION-78: Suggestion text for 1.5.4 from Ian Hickson on 2009-01-20 (public-html@w3.org from January 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  598. # [18:40] <DanC> (I'm looking at 0238 and I don't see proposed text)
  599. # [18:40] <Lachy> there wasn't proposed text. But a clear explanation of the problem
  600. # [18:40] <dbaron> Zakim, who is noisy?
  601. # [18:40] <Lachy> Hixie should be capable of writing text that matches the feedback
  602. # [18:40] <DanC> oh. then I can't evaluate whether I like it. never mind.
  603. # [18:40] <Zakim> dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Lachy (19%), MurrayM (5%), ChrisWilson (84%)
  604. # [18:41] <Lachy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jan/0218.html
  605. # [18:41] <pimpbot> Title: Re: ACTION-78: Suggestion text for 1.5.4 from Lachlan Hunt on 2009-01-19 (public-html@w3.org from January 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  606. # [18:41] * Quits: maddiin (mc@87.185.241.190) (Quit: maddiin)
  607. # [18:41] <Lachy> that's the mail from me that identified the problem
  608. # [18:41] <Lachy> DanC: I'm willing to work with Lachlan to come up with something mutually agreeable
  609. # [18:42] <Lachy> LH: Why can't Hixie do it when he get's to it?
  610. # [18:42] <Lachy> DanC: I want it done before Q3
  611. # [18:42] <Lachy> CW: Leave Hixie's time for more valuable things
  612. # [18:42] <rubys> I'm OK with Q3
  613. # [18:42] <DanC> action-78?
  614. # [18:42] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-78
  615. # [18:42] <trackbot> ACTION-78 -- Larry Masinter to work with Lachlan on text for 1.5.4 Relationship to Flash, Silverlight, XUL and similar proprietary languages -- due 2009-02-05 -- OPEN
  616. # [18:42] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/78
  617. # [18:42] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-78 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  618. # [18:43] <DanC> action-78?
  619. # [18:43] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-78
  620. # [18:43] <trackbot> ACTION-78 -- Larry Masinter to work with Lachlan on text and heading for 1.5.4 Relationship to Flash, Silverlight, XUL and similar proprietary languages -- due 2009-02-05 -- OPEN
  621. # [18:43] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/78
  622. # [18:43] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-78 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  623. # [18:43] <ChrisWilson> zakim, close item 1
  624. # [18:43] <Zakim> agendum 1, review open issues, closed
  625. # [18:43] <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
  626. # [18:43] <Zakim> 2. review pending review items [from ChrisWilson]
  627. # [18:43] <ChrisWilson> zakim, take up item 2
  628. # [18:43] <Zakim> agendum 2. "review pending review items" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
  629. # [18:43] * Lachy notes I misattributed quote from Larry to DanC
  630. # [18:43] <ChrisWilson> zakim, close item 2
  631. # [18:43] <Zakim> agendum 2, review pending review items, closed
  632. # [18:43] <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
  633. # [18:43] <Zakim> 3. review overdue action items [from ChrisWilson]
  634. # [18:43] <ChrisWilson> zakim, take up item 3
  635. # [18:43] <Zakim> agendum 3. "review overdue action items" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
  636. # [18:44] <ChrisWilson> action-34?
  637. # [18:44] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-34
  638. # [18:44] <trackbot> ACTION-34 -- Lachlan Hunt to prepare "Web Developer's Guide to HTML5" for publication in some way, as discussed on 2007-11-28 phone conference -- due 2009-01-22 -- OPEN
  639. # [18:44] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/34
  640. # [18:44] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-34 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  641. # [18:44] <Lachy> http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/
  642. # [18:44] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 Reference (at dev.w3.org)
  643. # [18:44] <DanC> s/DanC: I'm willing/Larry: I'm willing/
  644. # [18:44] <DanC> Topic: Authoring guide
  645. # [18:44] * Quits: hyatt (hyatt@98.201.21.231) (Client exited)
  646. # [18:45] <Lachy> http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/#introduction
  647. # [18:45] <ChrisWilson> LH: I started a major edit today, breaking in to three sections
  648. # [18:45] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 Reference (at dev.w3.org)
  649. # [18:45] * Joins: hyatt (hyatt@98.201.21.231)
  650. # [18:45] <ChrisWilson> LH: 1) getting started with HTML, 2) syntax, and 3) vocabulary and apis
  651. # [18:46] <ChrisWilson> LH: Take a look at the introduction, which should help clear up misconceptions about what it will contain
  652. # [18:46] <DanC> (I'd prefer that <!DOCTYPE html> came with some motivation... this claims to be a reference in the intro... I guess the motivation can go in a separate document...)
  653. # [18:48] <ChrisWilson> DanC: if you dont' put this in, it will still show up.
  654. # [18:48] <Lachy> http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/examples/example01.html
  655. # [18:48] <pimpbot> Title: Example 01 (at dev.w3.org)
  656. # [18:49] <ChrisWilson> LH: the syntax section will discuss this more
  657. # [18:49] <ChrisWilson> perhaps put in a fwd ref, once the syntax section is done
  658. # [18:49] <DanC> (I'm still interested to give it a try without the fwd ref)
  659. # [18:51] <Lachy> http://www.opera.com/company/education/curriculum/
  660. # [18:51] <pimpbot> Title: Opera: Web Standards Curriculum (at www.opera.com)
  661. # [18:52] <DanC> Lachy, I'm glad you're making progress; sorry I'm coming across a little negative; it's partly frustration that I haven't made as much progress.
  662. # [18:52] <ChrisWilson> zakim, close item 3
  663. # [18:52] <Zakim> agendum 3, review overdue action items, closed
  664. # [18:52] <Zakim> I see nothing remaining on the agenda
  665. # [18:52] <ChrisWilson> move to adjourn?
  666. # [18:52] <Lachy> DanC, I don't mind. Feel free to elaborate on your issues on the mailing list
  667. # [18:52] <ChrisWilson> ADJOURNED.
  668. # [18:52] <masinter> sam please call me
  669. # [18:53] <Zakim> -Julian
  670. # [18:53] <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
  671. # [18:53] <Zakim> -Shepazu
  672. # [18:53] <ChrisWilson> zakim, who is on the phone?
  673. # [18:53] <Zakim> On the phone I see ChrisWilson, Mike, Masinter, Lachy, DanC, MurrayM
  674. # [18:53] <rubys> larry, it may be a few minutes... but I will
  675. # [18:53] <Zakim> -Masinter
  676. # [18:53] <MikeSmith> trackbot, statue?
  677. # [18:53] <trackbot> Sorry, MikeSmith, I don't understand 'trackbot, statue?'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  678. # [18:53] <pimpbot> Title: IRC Trackbot (at www.w3.org)
  679. # [18:54] <MikeSmith> trackbot: status?
  680. # [18:54] * trackbot knows about the following 13 users: Michael(tm), Chris, Ben, Matthew, Joshue, Dan, Larry, Henri, Sam, Doug, Steve, Shawn, Julian
  681. # [18:54] <rubys> I'd like Ian to be added to the trackbot list
  682. # [18:54] <Lachy> ACTION: LachlanHunt to track registration of about: URI scheme
  683. # [18:54] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  684. # [18:54] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - LachlanHunt
  685. # [18:54] * RRSAgent records action 6
  686. # [18:54] <DanC> action: Lachlan track registration of about: URI scheme
  687. # [18:54] * RRSAgent records action 7
  688. # [18:54] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  689. # [18:54] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Lachlan
  690. # [18:54] <rubys> even if he doesn't directly interact with the tool, we should track who is doing the work not who is tracking who is doing the work
  691. # [18:54] <DanC> trackbot, status
  692. # [18:54] * trackbot knows about the following 13 users: Michael(tm), Chris, Ben, Matthew, Joshue, Dan, Larry, Henri, Sam, Doug, Steve, Shawn, Julian
  693. # [18:55] * Parts: Joshue (Joshue@86.45.208.167)
  694. # [18:55] <DanC> action: Dan for Lachlan track registration of about: URI scheme
  695. # [18:55] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  696. # [18:55] * RRSAgent records action 8
  697. # [18:55] <trackbot> Created ACTION-103 - For Lachlan track registration of about: URI scheme [on Dan Connolly - due 2009-02-05].
  698. # [18:55] <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Mike
  699. # [18:55] <Zakim> Mike is being disconnected
  700. # [18:55] <Zakim> -Mike
  701. # [18:56] <Zakim> -MurrayM
  702. # [18:56] <DanC> action-103?
  703. # [18:56] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-103
  704. # [18:56] <trackbot> ACTION-103 -- Dan Connolly to track registration of about: URI scheme -- due 2009-02-05 -- OPEN
  705. # [18:56] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/103
  706. # [18:56] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-103 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  707. # [18:56] * oedipus is the meeting adjourning?
  708. # [18:57] <DanC> action-103?
  709. # [18:57] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-103
  710. # [18:57] <trackbot> ACTION-103 -- Lachlan Hunt to track registration of about: URI scheme -- due 2009-02-05 -- OPEN
  711. # [18:57] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/103
  712. # [18:57] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-103 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  713. # [18:57] * DanC meeting is adjourned; we're cleaning up admin
  714. # [18:57] * oedipus thanks DanC
  715. # [18:57] <DanC> model: action-103 due XXX
  716. # [18:57] * Quits: oedipus (oedipus@71.250.74.3) (Quit: so long, lil' dudes - don't learn anything i wouldn't learn)
  717. # [18:58] <DanC> oedipus, I haven't looked at the D thingy; are you pretty confident there are others in the WG that want to track it?
  718. # [18:58] <DanC> action-103?
  719. # [18:58] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-103
  720. # [18:58] <trackbot> ACTION-103 -- Lachlan Hunt to track registration of about: URI scheme -- due 2009-03-05 -- OPEN
  721. # [18:58] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/103
  722. # [18:58] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-103 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  723. # [18:58] <Zakim> -Lachy
  724. # [18:58] <Zakim> -ChrisWilson
  725. # [18:59] <DanC> I'd like to think the D thingy can be worked out between you and the editor without escalating
  726. # [18:59] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
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  730. # [19:03] <DanC> Zakim, drop me
  731. # [19:03] <Zakim> DanC is being disconnected
  732. # [19:03] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
  733. # [19:03] <Zakim> Attendees were ChrisWilson, Julian, Mike, Masinter, DanC, Lachy, +1.519.378.aaaa, MurrayM, Shepazu, David_Baron
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  756. # [23:09] <karl> Like designers, if you give a programmer a problem with parameters, they’ll apply every bit of genius they have to solve it in the best possible way. If you tell them how to do it, you’ll suffer the wrath of an angry God. -- http://powazek.com/posts/1655
  757. # [23:09] <pimpbot> Title: Derek Powazek - Programmers are Tiny Gods (at powazek.com)
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  763. # Session Close: Fri Jan 30 00:00:00 2009

The end :)