/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-02-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Feb 12 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  8. # [00:34] <DanC> MikeSmith, do you know where this google group came from? http://groups.google.com/group/openweb-group/browse_thread/thread/59ecaef74958d932/fbf0dd175f3b2a2f#fbf0dd175f3b2a2f
  9. # [00:34] <pimpbot> Title: Whats OpenWeb take on XForms vs HTML5 Forms? - Open Web Advocacy | Google Groups (at groups.google.com)
  10. # [01:13] <heycam> DanC, http://groups.google.com/group/openweb-group/t/475f0718577357a5 seems to say what the list is for
  11. # [01:13] <pimpbot> Title: What This List Is About - Open Web Advocacy | Google Groups (at groups.google.com)
  12. # [01:13] <DanC> thanks.
  13. # [01:46] <pimpbot> planet: Anne van Kesteren: HTML5: Frames <http://annevankesteren.nl/2009/02/html5-frames>
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  18. # [03:08] <MikeSmith> DanC: dunno who the owner for that group is
  19. # [03:08] <MikeSmith> I seem to remember Dion Almaer mentioning it when I talked to him
  20. # [03:10] <heycam> i think brad neuberg is
  21. # [03:11] <MikeSmith> OK
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  40. # [10:02] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6563] New: Specify if innerHTML setting should use the quirkiness of the document" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Feb/0016.html> ** "[Bug 6562] Define parsing quirks" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Feb/0015.html> ** "[Bug 6562] New: Define parsing quirks" ( message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ht
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  48. # [11:08] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-html5-20090212/
  49. # [11:08] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at www.w3.org)
  50. # [11:09] <anne> will be published during the evening or so?
  51. # [11:12] <Philip> Hmm, code isn't orange any more :-(
  52. # [11:12] <heycam> yeah, /me is sad at the lack of style
  53. # [11:13] <heycam> if the point of publishing WDs is to solicit review, i think the poor styling will hinder that somewhat
  54. # [11:14] <zcorpan> anne: <form> gained autocomplete (for the diffs doc)
  55. # [11:14] <heycam> MikeSmith, did you use aaronsw's htmldiff for the diffed version?
  56. # [11:14] <anne> zcorpan, too late
  57. # [11:14] <MikeSmith> I didn't make a diffed version
  58. # [11:15] <heycam> oh, i see i was looking at the currently published version
  59. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> that one used something that I think Shane McCarron wrote
  60. # [11:15] <heycam> ok
  61. # [11:15] * Joins: darobin (robinb@81.66.15.230)
  62. # [11:16] <heycam> it's seriously crying out for some line-height love :/
  63. # [11:16] <heycam> also, the TOC looks a bit silly with the numbers!
  64. # [11:17] <myakura> ?
  65. # [11:17] <myakura> oops, i was looking at html5-diff
  66. # [11:19] <heycam> MikeSmith, could you just stick ol.toc li { list-style: none; } in the local <style> of Overview.html?
  67. # [11:24] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30)
  68. # [11:24] <zcorpan> why is gsnedders using <ol> for the toc anyway? :P
  69. # [11:25] <heycam> seems like the toc items should be ordered...
  70. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> heycam: changed & committed
  71. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> thanks
  72. # [11:30] <heycam> MikeSmith, thanks
  73. # [11:30] <zcorpan> heycam: "The ol element represents a list of items, where the items have been intentionally ordered, such that changing the order would change the meaning of the document."
  74. # [11:30] <heycam> i think changing the order would change the meaning of the document, since the list then wouldn't illustrate the order of sections in the document
  75. # [11:32] <zcorpan> the items are synced with the sections but you could reorder the sections and the toc
  76. # [11:32] <zcorpan> hixie sometimes reorders stuff in html5 without changing the meaning
  77. # [11:32] <heycam> but you couldn't change the order of the list without changing the order of the sections themselves to match
  78. # [11:32] * heycam bbl
  79. # [11:34] <zcorpan> Hixie: please clear this up in the spec :)
  80. # [11:34] * Parts: anne (annevk@85.196.122.246)
  81. # [11:35] <Hixie> hm?
  82. # [11:36] <zcorpan> Hixie: whether ToCs should use <ol> or <ul>
  83. # [11:36] <Hixie> <ol>, obviously
  84. # [11:37] <Hixie> the order is important
  85. # [11:40] <jgraham> ^ This is why semantics are an illusion
  86. # [11:40] <Hixie> semantics are a tool
  87. # [11:40] <jgraham> No one can agree on what they mean
  88. # [11:41] <jgraham> In some cases it works OK, I guess. Like people tend to put useful stuff in <title>
  89. # [11:45] <Philip> jgraham: That demonstrates we need a machine-readable way to encode the semantics of an element, so that humans don't have to agree amongst themselves
  90. # [11:47] <Hixie> -_-
  91. # [11:48] <Hixie> or alternatively /o\
  92. # [11:49] <jgraham> Is that supposed to be someone doing Yoga viewed end-on
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  94. # [11:51] <Hixie> heh no
  95. # [11:51] <Hixie> the former is rolling of eyes, the latter is one holding one's head in one's hands
  96. # [11:52] * Joins: anne (annevk@213.236.208.22)
  97. # [11:53] * zcorpan thought -_- was more like *sigh*
  98. # [11:53] <Hixie> right
  99. # [11:53] <Hixie> don't you roll your eyeballs when you sigh? :-)
  100. # [11:54] <Hixie> head down, rolling eyebals, sighing
  101. # [11:54] <Hixie> all at once
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  104. # [11:55] <zcorpan> maybe but i don't necessarily sigh when i roll eyes
  105. # [11:55] * Philip tends not to live in a pantomime
  106. # [11:56] <jgraham> Oh yes you do
  107. # [11:57] <Philip> -_-
  108. # [11:57] * jgraham totally fails to find any evidence of the bug that he is sure he filed on the table headers algorithm
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  110. # [11:59] <Hixie> jgraham: i might have fixed it :-)
  111. # [12:01] <jgraham> Hixie: Still seems to be wrong in the spec. And it doesn't come up in a search for fixed bugs
  112. # [12:01] * jgraham concludes that he lives in lala land
  113. # [12:02] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6438
  114. # [12:02] <pimpbot> Title: Bug 6438 Error in step 9.4 of the internal algorithm for scanning and assigning header cells (at www.w3.org)
  115. # [12:02] <Hixie> wow, there's a lot of bugs these days
  116. # [12:02] <jgraham> Oh so it is just that my bugzilla skillz are weak
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  121. # [13:51] <gsnedders> zcorpan: See, I did the right thing. The W3C styles just assume the wrong thing :P
  122. # [13:52] <gsnedders> (jg, if you see this pretend you haven't, I'll ping you later)
  123. # [13:54] <jgraham> gsnedders: OK, I will pretend you don't exist
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  135. # [15:26] <zcorpan> Hixie: is http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/canvas/007.html valid?
  136. # [15:26] <pimpbot> Title: Paths (at www.hixie.ch)
  137. # [15:32] <Philip> zcorpan: No
  138. # [15:32] <Philip> zcorpan: because the last S relies on transformations being applied at stroke-time, not path-creation-time
  139. # [15:34] <zcorpan> Philip: thanks
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  146. # [16:34] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 5822] The headers attribute should be able to reference a td" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Feb/0017.html>
  147. # [16:40] * Quits: zcorpan (zcorpan@88.131.66.80) (Quit: zcorpan)
  148. # [16:50] <anne> DanC, why was http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/62 closed and not marked e.g. pending review? we still haven't received a response afaict
  149. # [16:50] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-62 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  150. # [16:51] <anne> seems there's an associated issue so I suppose it doesn't matter, nm
  151. # [16:52] <DanC> anne, I looked into that, and we did get a response; at least they acknowledged receipt of Mike's msg
  152. # [16:53] <DanC> i.e. Roland did: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jul/0037.html
  153. # [16:53] <pimpbot> Title: Re: changes in HTML5 draft regarding XHTML1 from Roland Merrick on 2008-07-31 (public-xhtml2@w3.org from July 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  154. # [16:53] * Quits: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
  155. # [16:53] <DanC> anne, I asked Mike to keep the action until we got a response, but he didn't like that idea
  156. # [16:54] <DanC> and I'm not willing to do it either, so I'm not going to push on Mike
  157. # [16:55] <anne> fair enough
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  159. # [17:04] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6462] Self-reference and cyclic references in headers=''" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Feb/0018.html>
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  162. # [17:06] * rubys changes topic to 'HTML WG Weekly teleconference http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2009JanMar/0025.html (This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )'
  163. # [17:07] <anne> oh right, that's today too
  164. # [17:08] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  165. # [17:08] <anne> maybe I should start having a calendar one of these days
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  167. # [17:49] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  168. # [17:49] <ChrisWilson> zakim, this will be html
  169. # [17:49] <Zakim> ok, ChrisWilson; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start in 13 minutes
  170. # [17:52] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson: hey. I'm boarding a plane in about 10 minutes. will be around on IRC until I need to actually board
  171. # [17:53] <ChrisWilson> OK. I saw the pub note, should we delay your action-77 on producing seperate document?
  172. # [17:54] <MikeSmith> yeah, need to delay that til next week
  173. # [17:54] <ChrisWilson> And Action-100 (adding note about issue-67 to status section)?
  174. # [17:54] <MikeSmith> issue-67?
  175. # [17:54] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-67
  176. # [17:54] <trackbot> ISSUE-67 -- Should "HTML5: The Markup Language" draft contain parsing rules and DOM APIs? -- RAISED
  177. # [17:54] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/67
  178. # [17:54] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-67 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  179. # [17:54] <MikeSmith> yeah, next week on that too
  180. # [17:55] <ChrisWilson> OK
  181. # [17:55] <ChrisWilson> have a good flight
  182. # [17:55] <MikeSmith> thanks
  183. # [17:55] <DanC> ACTION-77 due next week
  184. # [17:55] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-77.
  185. # [17:55] <trackbot> ACTION-77 Lead HTML WG to response to TAG discussion and report back to TAG due date now next week
  186. # [17:55] <MikeSmith> and yeah, about other publication, I've got both the HTML5 spec and HTML5-HTML4-diffs docs staged up ready to go -- just waiting for webmaster to review and update the TR/html5 symlink
  187. # [17:57] <ChrisWilson> cool, thanks.
  188. # [17:58] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
  189. # [17:58] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  190. # [17:58] <ChrisWilson> zakim, Microsoft is me
  191. # [17:58] <Zakim> +ChrisWilson; got it
  192. # [17:59] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52)
  193. # [17:59] <Zakim> +Sam
  194. # [17:59] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-work
  195. # [17:59] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
  196. # [17:59] <Zakim> +DanC
  197. # [17:59] * Joins: masinter (user@192.150.10.200)
  198. # [17:59] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
  199. # [18:00] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  200. # [18:00] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/02/12-html-wg-irc
  201. # [18:00] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  202. # [18:00] <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
  203. # [18:00] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  204. # [18:00] <DanC> Topic: Convene, review agenda
  205. # [18:00] * ChrisWilson is looking for scribe volunteers...
  206. # [18:00] <DanC> GR: I have a report back on summary, alt, and table headers
  207. # [18:01] * DanC isn't in a good position to do the whole job today
  208. # [18:01] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233)
  209. # [18:01] <Lachy> I'm here, IRC only (but won't be here for the whole meeting)
  210. # [18:01] <oedipus> i can scribe, but have a noisy keyboard\
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  212. # [18:01] * ChrisWilson says the first day of new password is always the worst.
  213. # [18:01] <oedipus> i can always go on mute
  214. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.408.536.aaaa
  215. # [18:01] * ifette is now known as ifette_GOOG
  216. # [18:01] <oedipus> Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
  217. # [18:01] <oedipus> ScribeNick: oedipus
  218. # [18:01] <DanC> Zakim, aaa is masinter
  219. # [18:01] <Zakim> sorry, DanC, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'
  220. # [18:01] <DanC> Zakim, aaaa is masinter
  221. # [18:01] <Zakim> +masinter; got it
  222. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.650.214.aabb
  223. # [18:01] <ifette_GOOG> Zakim, aabb is ifette_GOOG
  224. # [18:01] <Zakim> +ifette_GOOG; got it
  225. # [18:02] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  226. # [18:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/12-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  227. # [18:02] <Zakim> +Julian_Reschke
  228. # [18:02] <Julian> Zakim, mute me
  229. # [18:02] <Zakim> Julian_Reschke should now be muted
  230. # [18:02] <DanC> (pls mail rather tahn pasting)
  231. # [18:02] * Joins: Joshue (Joshue@86.45.208.167)
  232. # [18:03] <DanC> Topic: ISSUE-32 (table-summary)
  233. # [18:03] <ChrisWilson> reviewing items out of order to take Gregory's item first...
  234. # [18:03] <ChrisWilson> action-104?
  235. # [18:03] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-104
  236. # [18:03] <trackbot> ACTION-104 -- Gregory Rosmaita to inquire about table summary and headers status at PFWG caucus on 2009-02-06 -- due 2009-02-12 -- OPEN
  237. # [18:03] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/104
  238. # [18:03] <ifette_GOOG> Zakim, ACTION-104?
  239. # [18:03] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, ifette_GOOG.
  240. # [18:03] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-104 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  241. # [18:03] <DanC> action-104?
  242. # [18:03] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-104
  243. # [18:03] <trackbot> ACTION-104 -- Gregory Rosmaita to inquire about table summary and headers status at PFWG caucus on 2009-02-06 -- due 2009-02-12 -- OPEN
  244. # [18:03] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/104
  245. # [18:03] <ChrisWilson> GR:summary: discussion is ongoing
  246. # [18:03] * DanC "the discussion"? which discussion?
  247. # [18:03] <oedipus> @summary: an ongoing discussion, as PF WG already made an official announcement on this issue and requested the attribute be re-instated, consult:
  248. # [18:03] <pimpbot> oedipus: Huh?
  249. # [18:04] <oedipus> @headers: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders - consensus is that the new headers wording is good
  250. # [18:04] <pimpbot> oedipus: Huh?
  251. # [18:04] <anne> Zakim, passcode?
  252. # [18:04] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), anne
  253. # [18:04] <DanC> (new headers wording; is that the 20 Dec edit?)
  254. # [18:04] <oedipus> @alt: Steve's reply to Dan on the public HTML list clearly indicates that the item should remain open as discussions are ongoing. (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Feb/0266.html)
  255. # [18:04] <pimpbot> oedipus: Huh?
  256. # [18:04] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  257. # [18:04] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.)
  258. # [18:04] <anne> Zakim, [IPCaller] is me
  259. # [18:04] <Zakim> +anne; got it
  260. # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P15
  261. # [18:05] <Joshue> zakim, ??P15 is Joshue
  262. # [18:05] <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
  263. # [18:05] <oedipus> GJR: hope to have timely feedback soon on alt -- being discussed in WAI Coordination Group
  264. # [18:05] * Joshue what issue is this?
  265. # [18:06] <oedipus> GJR: may be able to givce concrete time-frame on friday
  266. # [18:06] * Joins: smedero (smedero@192.223.6.251)
  267. # [18:06] * DanC would like us to finish discussion of summary before broadening
  268. # [18:06] <rubys> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/32
  269. # [18:06] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-32 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  270. # [18:06] * Joshue thanks
  271. # [18:06] * ChrisWilson DanC: just a sec, we'll circle back.
  272. # [18:06] <oedipus> GJR: to be on safe side - 2 to 3 weeks
  273. # [18:07] <Zakim> + +1.425.646.aacc
  274. # [18:07] <smedero> Zakim, +1.425.646.aacc is me
  275. # [18:07] <Zakim> +smedero; got it
  276. # [18:07] <oedipus> GJR: will try and get more detailed timeline at PF HTML Issues caucus on friday
  277. # [18:07] <oedipus> GJR: will report back via email as well as follow up report in email
  278. # [18:07] <oedipus> CW: circle back to summary
  279. # [18:08] <Joshue> +q
  280. # [18:08] * Zakim sees Joshue on the speaker queue
  281. # [18:08] <ChrisWilson> ack Joshue
  282. # [18:08] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  283. # [18:08] <oedipus> JOC: officially pf already made response to summary issue
  284. # [18:08] <DanC> (pointer to PF's position on summary?)
  285. # [18:08] <Joshue> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0213.html
  286. # [18:08] * oedipus i zapped it by mistake - need to get again - josh, handy?
  287. # [18:08] <pimpbot> Title: Re: Request for PFWG WAI review of summary for tabular data from Al Gilman on 2008-08-06 (public-html@w3.org from August 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  288. # [18:09] <oedipus> DC: that says summary should stay but not why
  289. # [18:09] <oedipus> JOC: a lot of discussion and related threads on HTML wiki
  290. # [18:09] <oedipus> CW: email just says need to discuss further -- like timeframe to work out details
  291. # [18:10] <Joshue> JOC: More on @summary http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SummaryForTABLE
  292. # [18:10] <pimpbot> Title: HTML/SummaryForTABLE - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
  293. # [18:10] <oedipus> JOC: discussion been circular
  294. # [18:10] <oedipus> q+
  295. # [18:10] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
  296. # [18:10] <oedipus> GJR: the question isn't why put it back, but why was it taken out?
  297. # [18:10] <anne> (I think the TF is about something else.)
  298. # [18:10] <Joshue> JOC: I am talked out on this one.
  299. # [18:11] <Joshue> JOC: +1 to GJR
  300. # [18:11] <DanC> (I'd rather the TF were more established before handing it something like @summary)
  301. # [18:11] <anne> (I.e. about ARIA and HTML.)
  302. # [18:11] <oedipus> SR: don't want recriminations - question is does it belong in HTML5 or not -- one camp thinks belongs, other doesn't - need to move out of entrenched position and arguments from other side
  303. # [18:11] <masinter> that was me, LMM
  304. # [18:11] <DanC> s/SR:/LMM:/
  305. # [18:12] <oedipus> GJR: a) summary was added specifically for an intended purpose; it is supported by ATs and is very useful in orienting the user to the table with which that user is about to interact -- longdesc for TABLE
  306. # [18:13] <oedipus> LMM: intent, but hasn't been used that way -- statistics might be disputed, but need better evidence of support
  307. # [18:13] * Joins: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217)
  308. # [18:13] <oedipus> CW: don't want to debate suport r lack of suppoprt
  309. # [18:13] <Joshue> JOC: Agree with Sam that we need to move beyond entrenched attitudes but a little sure at this stage exactly how to do that.
  310. # [18:13] <DanC> (with Sam? it was Larry)
  311. # [18:13] <rubys> s/Sam/Larry
  312. # [18:13] <oedipus> GJR: why isn't AT support sufficient?
  313. # [18:13] <Joshue> JOC: Sorry, Larry.
  314. # [18:13] <oedipus> q?
  315. # [18:13] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
  316. # [18:13] <oedipus> ack oe
  317. # [18:13] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  318. # [18:14] <Joshue> JOC: Chris, The problem is the nature of the required evidence.
  319. # [18:14] <oedipus> CW: if evidence in support in tools and use in content -- personal standpoint, that would be enough -- point to evidence and issue should be resolved
  320. # [18:14] <DanC> (did I miss the data about support in authoring tools? where was it given? it's not in 2008Aug/0213.html )
  321. # [18:15] <oedipus> CW: don't know the data that says this is supoprted in accessibility tools
  322. # [18:15] <Joshue> +q
  323. # [18:15] * Zakim sees Joshue on the speaker queue
  324. # [18:15] <oedipus> GJR: yes, i use AT for assistive technology
  325. # [18:15] <DanC> (following some links, I see something about GwMicro and Windows Eyes at http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SummaryForTABLE#head-efb5f42844e374dbc45ffe4dadd74ea8a29d54bf )
  326. # [18:15] <pimpbot> Title: HTML/SummaryForTABLE - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
  327. # [18:15] <oedipus> CW: get evidence out there in mail thread, point to it and should resolve itself
  328. # [18:15] <masinter> Dreamweaver supports table summary, and has "since time immemorial"
  329. # [18:16] <oedipus> LMM: dreamweaver suppored summary since time immemorial
  330. # [18:16] <Joshue> JOC: That is pretty good evidence.
  331. # [18:16] <oedipus> GJR: supported by Window-Eyes and JAAWS for Windows
  332. # [18:16] <oedipus> GJR: Orca on linux
  333. # [18:16] <Joshue> Tools that support @summary http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SummaryForTABLE#head-efb5f42844e374dbc45ffe4dadd74ea8a29d54bf
  334. # [18:16] <pimpbot> Title: HTML/SummaryForTABLE - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
  335. # [18:17] * DanC nak
  336. # [18:17] <oedipus> CW: have evidence to answer one of my questions -- what about use?
  337. # [18:17] <DanC> ack Joshue
  338. # [18:17] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  339. # [18:17] <oedipus> JOC: want to make point that summary is little used in wild - is REALLY useful, but not widespread; one of first pieces of advice that accessibility evaluatoins turn up; chicken and egg situation
  340. # [18:17] <DanC> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Feb/0068.html table-summary argument, which notes DreamWeaver support
  341. # [18:17] <pimpbot> Title: table-summary argument from Larry Masinter on 2009-02-03 (public-html@w3.org from February 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  342. # [18:18] <oedipus> GJR: put in for specific reason, for specifc users and there is support for them
  343. # [18:18] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  344. # [18:18] <Joshue> JOC: There is a reasonable adoption and useful tools.
  345. # [18:18] <oedipus> CW: support in AT seems like done deal - how can one object to it
  346. # [18:18] <Joshue> JOC: +1 to CW
  347. # [18:18] <oedipus> +1 to CW
  348. # [18:18] <oedipus> CW: isn't already widespread in content...
  349. # [18:18] <DanC> (the JOC: notation is for recording what was spoken. for IRc comments, no need )
  350. # [18:19] <ifette_GOOG> <font> is in more widespread use than summary
  351. # [18:19] * DanC Zakim, who's making noise?
  352. # [18:19] <Joshue> JOC: The term widespread use is also relative.
  353. # [18:19] <rubys> difficult to hear
  354. # [18:19] * Joshue I cannot hear..
  355. # [18:19] <dsinger> impossible
  356. # [18:19] * Zakim DanC, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ChrisWilson (9%), Joshue (14%), anne (60%)
  357. # [18:19] <oedipus> scribe cannot hear
  358. # [18:19] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  359. # [18:19] <dsinger> no-one can?
  360. # [18:19] <Joshue> zakim, mite me
  361. # [18:19] <Zakim> I don't understand 'mite me', Joshue
  362. # [18:19] <oedipus> zakim, mute anne
  363. # [18:19] <ifette_GOOG> (I cannot hear either)
  364. # [18:19] <Zakim> anne should now be muted
  365. # [18:19] * anne no
  366. # [18:19] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  367. # [18:19] <oedipus> Cynthia Shelly joins
  368. # [18:19] * Quits: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217) (Quit: Laura)
  369. # [18:19] <DanC> Zakim, Microsoft has Cynthia
  370. # [18:19] <Zakim> +Cynthia; got it
  371. # [18:19] * anne wonders what was up
  372. # [18:20] * anne blames Skype
  373. # [18:20] * Joshue exactly
  374. # [18:20] <oedipus> CW: summary and status of discussion; think come to point where support in assistive tech and authoring tools; is there use of summary in content -- if is, then simply should be reinsstated without discussion unless someone has a reason why it is a bad idea to do so; need to evangelize more to authors - should state "this is why it is necessary"
  375. # [18:21] <DanC> looking at http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SummaryForTABLE
  376. # [18:21] <oedipus> DC: reviewing arguments on wiki page
  377. # [18:21] <pimpbot> Title: HTML/SummaryForTABLE - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
  378. # [18:21] <oedipus> CS: issue 32?
  379. # [18:21] <oedipus> DC: yes
  380. # [18:21] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  381. # [18:21] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/12-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  382. # [18:22] <oedipus> DC: page doesn't look balanced
  383. # [18:22] * Joshue it is a little old at his stage
  384. # [18:22] <oedipus> GJR: been up there for a long time and this topic under active discussion for quite some time; so the onus to document or raise objections is on the objectors
  385. # [18:22] <oedipus> CS: goals of removing it?
  386. # [18:22] <oedipus> DC: simplicity, i expect
  387. # [18:23] <oedipus> CW: simplicity and lack-of-use
  388. # [18:23] <Joshue> JOC: simplicity for whom?
  389. # [18:23] <oedipus> SR: my reading is strongest argument is number 3
  390. # [18:23] <anne> improper use according to the same studies at least
  391. # [18:23] <DanC> number 3 = "Summary is explicitly invisible metadata and therefore is more likely to be missing or inaccurate than data that is visible to all UAs."
  392. # [18:23] <oedipus> LMM: survey found missing or inaccurate
  393. # [18:23] <oedipus> GJR: what is the source of that claim
  394. # [18:23] <DanC> (my point was that the wiki topic is not currently balanced, so not easy to use for WG purposes)
  395. # [18:24] <oedipus> LMM: argument is based on google index for summary -- show frequently inaccurate
  396. # [18:24] <oedipus> LMM: don't think personally it is a strong reson for removal
  397. # [18:24] <oedipus> GJR: agree - if that were the case, deprecate blockquot
  398. # [18:24] <Joshue> JOC: It is not a strong enough reason to use it.
  399. # [18:24] <Joshue> s/use/lose
  400. # [18:24] * Joshue even
  401. # [18:24] <DanC> (joshue, unless you're recording what you said orally, it's distracting to use the JOC: notation)
  402. # [18:24] <oedipus> s/blockquot/blockquote
  403. # [18:25] <DanC> s/SR: my reading/LMM: my reading/
  404. # [18:25] <Joshue> s/lose/loose
  405. # [18:25] <oedipus> CW: invisible meta-data and unlikely to be updated - what is source?
  406. # [18:25] <oedipus> GJR: in Open Accessibility use of "summary" is required in our standards and documents
  407. # [18:25] <anne> masinter, it was not just based on Google studies, there were independent studies as well
  408. # [18:26] <oedipus> CS: may need to add something akin to aria-labelledby to point to paragraph
  409. # [18:26] <DanC> I don't recall other studies, anne ... looking... would appreciate pointers...
  410. # [18:26] <oedipus> CS: shorter summary and association with text elsewhere on page
  411. # [18:26] * Joshue that made sense Cynthia
  412. # [18:26] <oedipus> CS: number 3 is true, but that is case with a lot of accessibility markup
  413. # [18:26] <oedipus> +1 to CS' point
  414. # [18:26] <DanC> (we don't seem to have any advocates of the "keep it out" position on the call.)
  415. # [18:27] <jgraham> How often is the other accessibility markup missing/misleading
  416. # [18:27] <oedipus> CW: not hearing who thinks this should be removed -- see some objections, but evidence of support from authoring tools and assistive technologies
  417. # [18:27] <masinter> My question is whether proper usage is increasing or decreasing. If proper usage is decreasing, 3 holds more weight. If proper use is increasing, 3 isn't a strong argument.
  418. # [18:27] <oedipus> CS: anyone strongly in favor of removing it
  419. # [18:28] <smedero> danc, I believe one of the studies was done by Philip Taylor: http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/summary.html
  420. # [18:28] <pimpbot> Title: summary (at canvex.lazyilluminati.com)
  421. # [18:28] <oedipus> CW: send email to group asking for those who oppose and want it out, should speak now or forever hold their piece, and then set an action to restore it to the draft
  422. # [18:28] <rubys> suggest not using the word 'reinstate', suggest 'add' instead.
  423. # [18:28] <jgraham> masinter: It's maybe too hard to do that study because sample bias will outweigh any effect
  424. # [18:28] <oedipus> DC: Phil Taylor - other markup more important
  425. # [18:29] <oedipus> DC: Anne?
  426. # [18:29] <jgraham> (that is systematic bias, not random bias)
  427. # [18:29] <oedipus> SR: question worth asking again
  428. # [18:29] <anne> DanC, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Dec/0175.html under "TABLE SUMMARY"
  429. # [18:29] <pimpbot> Title: Table feedback from Ian Hickson on 2008-12-20 (public-html@w3.org from December 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  430. # [18:29] <DanC> thanks, anne
  431. # [18:29] <oedipus> CW: send mail to group and say anyone who thinks should be removed speak now
  432. # [18:29] <anne> I don't think any of that has been refuted yet, but I may have missed something
  433. # [18:30] <oedipus> DC: anne came up with a pointer to mail from december 2008
  434. # [18:30] <DanC> [[
  435. # [18:30] <DanC> Some of the other sources of data:
  436. # [18:30] <DanC> http://projectcerbera.com/web/study/2007/tables
  437. # [18:30] <DanC> http://projectcerbera.com/web/study/2008/tables
  438. # [18:30] <DanC> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/summary.html
  439. # [18:30] <DanC> ]]
  440. # [18:30] <pimpbot> Title: Tables - Project Cerbera (at projectcerbera.com)
  441. # [18:30] <pimpbot> Title: Collections of Interesting Data Tables - Project Cerbera (at projectcerbera.com)
  442. # [18:30] <pimpbot> Title: summary (at canvex.lazyilluminati.com)
  443. # [18:30] <anne> masinter, you always talk about the Google index, but there's in fact no mentioning of that
  444. # [18:30] <oedipus> LMM: reviewed that -- email from ian summarizing arguments - pointers to previous mail, which are better captured in wiki
  445. # [18:30] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  446. # [18:30] <oedipus> DC: mentioned google studies
  447. # [18:30] <anne> masinter, so I'm sort of doubtful of you just dismissing that e-mail
  448. # [18:31] <oedipus> DC: Joshue have you looked at those studie
  449. # [18:31] <oedipus> JOC: monitored them on and off
  450. # [18:31] <oedipus> JOC: studies of different tables -- illustrate a lot of different things
  451. # [18:31] <masinter> "nothing particularly new has been
  452. # [18:31] <masinter> raised on the topic since the last times I looked at this"
  453. # [18:31] <oedipus> CW: hixie's response basically says "use caption to do many things summary is useful for" - interprets data to mean that most uses of summary are bad
  454. # [18:32] <oedipus> GJR: i would balance that against the advice given by WCAG
  455. # [18:32] * Philip notes that his thing was not attempting to be a particularly useful or detailed or well-thought-out survey, it was just scraping some easily-available information
  456. # [18:32] <anne> but dimensions you do not want to give in summary either... that information is intrinsic to the table...
  457. # [18:32] * Joins: cyns (836b0045@128.30.52.43)
  458. # [18:32] <oedipus> GJR: caption for a TABLE is akin to a Header or a terse descriptor; summary is a more verbosxe descriptor akin to a longdesc for the table
  459. # [18:33] <oedipus> GJR: 2 different things
  460. # [18:33] <DanC> (does "more verbose" come from HTML 4 or WCAG? or is it oedipus's personal take?)
  461. # [18:33] <jgraham> oedipus: That is different to the description I have heard from other people
  462. # [18:33] * Joins: darobin (robinb@81.66.15.230)
  463. # [18:33] <oedipus> CW: write up on wiki is old
  464. # [18:34] * jgraham is loathe to edit wiki pages because of the possibility of edit wars, ends up being a giant time sync for no real purpose
  465. # [18:34] <oedipus> CW: doesn't detail reasons con; not sure going to get resolved; fundamental question - is necessary to provide hidden meta-data or assistive tech oriented meta data
  466. # [18:34] <masinter> whethere it is necessary to allow that information to be provided
  467. # [18:34] <oedipus> GJR: summary is part of section 508 compliance
  468. # [18:34] * rubys hasn't seen edit wars to be a big problem in practice
  469. # [18:34] <Joshue> it is necessary.
  470. # [18:34] <oedipus> CW: would appreciate it if wiki updated
  471. # [18:34] * DanC indeed, jgraham , we're hit-and-miss on wiki usage
  472. # [18:35] <oedipus> CW: need non-biased evaluation of issue; collecting pointers in this IRC log will be useful
  473. # [18:35] <Joshue> This is vital meta data to aid comprehension and improve the user experience for non-visual users.
  474. # [18:35] * Joins: Stevef (chatzilla@82.44.69.8)
  475. # [18:35] <oedipus> CW: don't want to be an edit-war; those on pro side, edit pro section, those on con side, edit con section, don't go back and forth with it; will talk with SR about making decisions in this particular circumstance
  476. # [18:35] <DanC> (I don't see "summary is longer" at http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/struct/tables.html#adef-summary )
  477. # [18:35] <pimpbot> Title: Tables in HTML documents (at www.w3.org)
  478. # [18:35] <anne> DanC, can't find anything about "verbose" in WCAG1.0 or HTML4
  479. # [18:35] <Joshue> Without @summary a user often has to interrogate a complex data table just to find out if it is useful.
  480. # [18:35] <Stevef> H73: Using the summary attribute of the table element to give an overview of data tablesWCAG 2.0 technique http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H73.html
  481. # [18:35] <pimpbot> Title: H73: Using the summary attribute of the table element to give an overview of data tables | Techniques for WCAG 2.0 (at www.w3.org)
  482. # [18:36] <anne> DanC, WCAG 1.0 is at http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#table-summary-info
  483. # [18:36] <pimpbot> Title: HTML Techniques for Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 1.0 (at www.w3.org)
  484. # [18:36] <oedipus> DC: relavant
  485. # [18:36] <oedipus> DC: GJR said something about summary being longer -- looked in HTML4 and looked in WCAG and didn't find anything
  486. # [18:37] <Stevef> danc: look at the example in the wcag 2.0 technique
  487. # [18:37] <Joshue> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H73.html
  488. # [18:37] <pimpbot> Title: H73: Using the summary attribute of the table element to give an overview of data tables | Techniques for WCAG 2.0 (at www.w3.org)
  489. # [18:37] <oedipus> SF: wcag2 technique
  490. # [18:38] <rubys> I strongly suggest that people who want to see summary (re-)added, make their case on the wiki
  491. # [18:38] <oedipus> rubys, why onus on re-adding rather than contra arguments?
  492. # [18:38] <DanC> (so close action-104 and make a new one on Chris?)
  493. # [18:38] <oedipus> CW: do not remove arguments from other side
  494. # [18:38] <Joshue> JOC: @Sam we (sic) will update the wiki
  495. # [18:38] <oedipus> SR: latter part of discussion revealing
  496. # [18:38] <rubys> oedipus: both are need.
  497. # [18:39] <rubys> s/SR/LMM/
  498. # [18:39] <oedipus> LMM: positive that had discussion; think making progress
  499. # [18:39] <DanC> thanks Stevef; that WCAG H73 reference is something I hadn't looked at
  500. # [18:39] <Stevef> danc: no problem
  501. # [18:40] <DanC> (I'm interested to stay after the call and help get the wiki topic more balanced; unfortunately, I'm not available. :-/)
  502. # [18:40] <oedipus> LMM: for some things that have been accepted as given in accessibility community; linkage to authoring GLs from spec itself would be helpful to improve what is there and hence improve chances that summary and others work properly
  503. # [18:40] <anne> (does it really make sense to spend an entire telcon on summary=?)
  504. # [18:40] <oedipus> CW: suggest we move on
  505. # [18:40] <oedipus> DC: action on whom?
  506. # [18:40] <DanC> action-104?
  507. # [18:40] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-104
  508. # [18:40] <trackbot> ACTION-104 -- Chris Wilson to inquire about table summary and headers status at PFWG caucus on 2009-02-06 -- due 2009-02-19 -- OPEN
  509. # [18:40] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/104
  510. # [18:40] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-104 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  511. # [18:40] <oedipus> CW: moved to myself -- due next week - will work with sam
  512. # [18:40] <masinter> it makes sense to work out mechanisms by which these otherwise previously unresolvable issues can get resolved
  513. # [18:41] <oedipus> TOPIC: Actions Pending Review
  514. # [18:41] <ChrisWilson> action-72?
  515. # [18:41] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-72
  516. # [18:41] <trackbot> ACTION-72 -- Dan Connolly to propose to close this issue based on recent HTML 5 spec draft and test materials from WCAG 2 -- due 2009-02-11 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  517. # [18:41] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/72
  518. # [18:41] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-72 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  519. # [18:41] <oedipus> CW: action 72 on DanC
  520. # [18:41] <DanC> Topic: ISSUE-20 (table-headers)
  521. # [18:41] <oedipus> DC: hixie sent message in december 2008; includes headers on TH element, which wasn't allowed earlier
  522. # [18:41] <DanC> my msg http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Feb/0231.html
  523. # [18:41] <pimpbot> Title: revised table headers design is OK, right? from Dan Connolly on 2009-02-11 (public-html@w3.org from February 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  524. # [18:42] <oedipus> DC: extracted example and ran by validator.nu and got thumbs up
  525. # [18:42] <oedipus> DC: henri updated validator - sent email to ask are we done here?
  526. # [18:42] <oedipus> DC: chaals looked into it; like to spend more time thinking about it
  527. # [18:42] <oedipus> DC: JGraham reminded us about his code, but can't garuntee matches spec
  528. # [18:43] <oedipus> DC: willing to hold ball until i hear more from chaals or james or some third independent party
  529. # [18:43] <jgraham> FWIW I implemented the code by reading the spec. I can't promise it is bug free
  530. # [18:43] <oedipus> DC: investigate specific concerns rather than keep an overview of entire spec in head
  531. # [18:43] <DanC> ACTION-72 ?
  532. # [18:43] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-72
  533. # [18:43] <trackbot> ACTION-72 -- Dan Connolly to propose to close this issue based on recent HTML 5 spec draft and test materials from WCAG 2 -- due 2009-02-26 -- OPEN
  534. # [18:43] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/72
  535. # [18:43] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-72 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  536. # [18:43] <oedipus> CW: can close action 72
  537. # [18:43] <oedipus> RESOLVED: action 72 closed
  538. # [18:43] <DanC> Topic: html5-xhtml-namespace
  539. # [18:44] <oedipus> DC: who has ball now?
  540. # [18:44] <anne> (seems to me it would be good if someone volunteered to review jgraham's code...)
  541. # [18:44] <oedipus> CW: discussion currently ongoing in list and an open issue
  542. # [18:44] <oedipus> DC: who has the ball?
  543. # [18:44] <oedipus> CW: if anyone wants to pick up the ball and run with it, happy to assign action item
  544. # [18:44] <jgraham> anne: Or write testcases for this part of the spec
  545. # [18:44] <DanC> (I don't like having OPEN issues with no open action)
  546. # [18:45] <Joshue> zakim, mute me
  547. # [18:45] <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
  548. # [18:45] <oedipus> SR: action i would recommend is schedule for chairs of HTML WG and XHTML WG meet and propose a coordination plan so vocabularies in proper compatible namespaces
  549. # [18:45] <masinter> s/SR:/LMM:/
  550. # [18:45] <oedipus> SR: let larry word action item and i will own it
  551. # [18:46] * DanC hopes larry is typing
  552. # [18:46] <ChrisWilson> action-83?
  553. # [18:46] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-83
  554. # [18:46] <trackbot> ACTION-83 -- Chris Wilson to come up with a 16x16 image icon for IE for implementation chart -- due 2009-02-06 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  555. # [18:46] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/83
  556. # [18:46] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-83 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  557. # [18:46] <DanC> Topic: testsuite
  558. # [18:46] <oedipus> CW: action 83 - can close - sent pointer to list
  559. # [18:46] * oedipus danC, do you want to scribe?
  560. # [18:46] <masinter> Action: Sam should arrange a meeting between chairs of HTML WG and XHTML WG to insure there is a plan for coordination of vocabularies to avoid incompatibilities.
  561. # [18:46] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  562. # [18:46] <trackbot> Created ACTION-105 - Should arrange a meeting between chairs of HTML WG and XHTML WG to insure there is a plan for coordination of vocabularies to avoid incompatibilities. [on Sam Ruby - due 2009-02-19].
  563. # [18:46] * RRSAgent records action 1
  564. # [18:47] <oedipus> DC: someone volunteered to be test suite coordinator, but didn't have time
  565. # [18:47] <oedipus> CW: don't recall
  566. # [18:47] <oedipus> DC: in IRC discussion
  567. # [18:47] <oedipus> danc, sampablocooper?
  568. # [18:47] <jgraham> takkaria volunteered but not 'till March or so
  569. # [18:47] <oedipus> DC: yes, takkaria
  570. # [18:47] <oedipus> CW: would be good idea for us to start pushing that harder
  571. # [18:48] <jgraham> Andi Sidwell
  572. # [18:48] <oedipus> DC: in particular stuff around table headers - i made one test file, james made another, chaals mentioned test cases
  573. # [18:48] <DanC> s/james asked for another/
  574. # [18:48] <oedipus> CW: action item to drum up someone to coordinate test suites
  575. # [18:48] <oedipus> DC: want to, but over committed; hope table headers issue results in test cases
  576. # [18:49] <oedipus> GJR: also test docuemnts by Gez Lemon and Steven Faulkner
  577. # [18:49] <DanC> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HtmlTestMaterials
  578. # [18:49] <pimpbot> Title: HtmlTestMaterials - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
  579. # [18:49] <oedipus> CW: a lot of pointers to tests in list archives
  580. # [18:49] <DanC> ^ if you now stuff that isn't linked there, I'd appreciate it if you'd link it
  581. # [18:49] <oedipus> CW: hope that those UA devs who have HTML5 test suites inform us about that
  582. # [18:49] * Joins: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167)
  583. # [18:50] <oedipus> DanC: whenever i have 3 minutes i do update the wiki page
  584. # [18:50] <oedipus> DanC: not added cross-origin tests from MS to list yet
  585. # [18:50] <oedipus> DanC: GJR please add Gez and Steven's examples to the wiki page
  586. # [18:50] <ChrisWilson> action chriswilson to work out with co-chair and staff how to spark test suite coordination next week
  587. # [18:50] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  588. # [18:50] <trackbot> Created ACTION-106 - Work out with co-chair and staff how to spark test suite coordination next week [on Chris Wilson - due 2009-02-19].
  589. # [18:50] <Philip> (http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Testsuite has pointers to many of the existing test suites)
  590. # [18:50] <oedipus> GJR: will do
  591. # [18:50] <pimpbot> Title: Testsuite - WHATWG Wiki (at wiki.whatwg.org)
  592. # [18:50] * Quits: Stevef (chatzilla@82.44.69.8) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.6/2009011913])
  593. # [18:51] <oedipus> TOPIC: missing @alt
  594. # [18:51] <oedipus> DanC: where end up?
  595. # [18:51] <oedipus> CW: pushed back 2 weeks, pending review
  596. # [18:51] <DanC> (that should be open, I think)
  597. # [18:51] <ChrisWilson> action-99?
  598. # [18:51] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-99
  599. # [18:51] <trackbot> ACTION-99 -- Larry Masinter to review @profile -- due 2009-02-04 -- PENDINGREVIEW
  600. # [18:51] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/99
  601. # [18:51] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-99 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  602. # [18:51] <oedipus> TOPIC: Action 99
  603. # [18:51] <DanC> Topic: head-profile
  604. # [18:51] <oedipus> LMM: sent emessage about it
  605. # [18:51] <cyns> q+ to report status update on PF - HTML - ARIA task force discussed last week
  606. # [18:51] * Zakim sees cyns on the speaker queue
  607. # [18:51] <oedipus> CW: dan moved to "pending review" wants to discuss next steps
  608. # [18:52] <oedipus> DC: thought we thought issues have to have owners; 2 issues clearly stated - to me think time to close issue
  609. # [18:52] <oedipus> q?
  610. # [18:52] * Zakim sees cyns on the speaker queue
  611. # [18:52] <ChrisWilson> ack cyns
  612. # [18:52] <Zakim> cyns, you wanted to report status update on PF - HTML - ARIA task force discussed last week
  613. # [18:52] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  614. # [18:52] <oedipus> TOPIC: Joint Task Force
  615. # [18:53] <DanC> i.e. Joint WAI PF/HTML WG Task Force
  616. # [18:53] <oedipus> CS: will be facillitating that and sending out invites early next week - those who would like to join, email me and let me know
  617. # [18:53] <oedipus> s/TOPIC: Action 99/TOPIC: Joint WAI PF-HTML WG Task Force
  618. # [18:53] <oedipus> CW: circling back to @profile...
  619. # [18:54] <oedipus> LMM: this is another issue where we need an effective decision process
  620. # [18:54] <cyns> also, if there's anyone you want to nominate to help with WAI PF HTML WG task force, please send me their name
  621. # [18:54] <oedipus> DC: think critical mass in favor of leaving out, there are objectors, too
  622. # [18:55] <oedipus> LMM: some evidence of support in authoring tools and third-party plug-ins, so there is some support; not an issue where any evidence of misuse has been proffered
  623. # [18:55] <oedipus> SR: which email?
  624. # [18:55] <masinter> no evidence of misuse
  625. # [18:55] <DanC> tools and such in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jul/0571.html
  626. # [18:55] <pimpbot> Title: let's keep metadata profiles (head/profile) in HTML for use in GRDDL etc. from Dan Connolly on 2007-07-09 (public-html@w3.org from July 2007) (at lists.w3.org)
  627. # [18:55] <DanC> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/55
  628. # [18:55] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-55 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  629. # [18:55] <jgraham> masinter: The is much evidence that it is not used when it is supposedly required to be used (e.g. microformats)
  630. # [18:56] <oedipus> DC: dublin core uses it
  631. # [18:56] <oedipus> LMM: sent screen shots to www-archive
  632. # [18:56] <oedipus> LMM: illustrate support
  633. # [18:56] <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Feb/0032.html
  634. # [18:56] <pimpbot> Title: headprofile support in Adobe Dreamweaver from Larry Masinter on 2009-02-05 (www-archive@w3.org from February 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  635. # [18:56] <oedipus> DC: cited in email to WG?
  636. # [18:56] <oedipus> LMM: yes
  637. # [18:56] * Parts: Joshue (Joshue@86.45.208.167)
  638. # [18:56] <Zakim> -Joshue
  639. # [18:56] <masinter> cited in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Feb/0109.html
  640. # [18:56] <pimpbot> Title: RE: Implementation of headprofile from Larry Masinter on 2009-02-05 (public-html@w3.org from February 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  641. # [18:57] * smedero has to drop off
  642. # [18:57] <Zakim> -smedero
  643. # [18:57] <oedipus> SR: need to assign to someone
  644. # [18:57] <jgraham> It looks like DW just implements it as any other attribute that takes a URI
  645. # [18:57] * DanC wonders what the
  646. # [18:57] * DanC wonders what the "it" is
  647. # [18:57] <oedipus> LMM: can try and track down more information about support in authoring tools, if needed
  648. # [18:57] <oedipus> danC, it is @profile in head
  649. # [18:57] <DanC> (I wonder if we have 3 independent parties in favor of keeping head/@profile; LMM and I maybe...)
  650. # [18:58] <Julian> me
  651. # [18:58] <DanC> but what about head/@profile, I wonder
  652. # [18:58] <oedipus> GJR is in favor of keeping head/@profile
  653. # [18:58] <oedipus> CW: action on Mike to get spec and new document published; transition request sent; should be out imminently
  654. # [18:58] <oedipus> CW: suggest that we adjourn
  655. # [18:58] <oedipus> GJR: seconded
  656. # [18:58] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@98.234.51.190)
  657. # [18:58] <oedipus> CW: any issues?
  658. # [18:59] <oedipus> DC: everything looks up-to-date on agenda planning page in tracker, ready to adjourn
  659. # [18:59] <Zakim> -masinter
  660. # [18:59] <oedipus> ADJOURNED
  661. # [18:59] <Zakim> -ifette_GOOG
  662. # [18:59] <dsinger> bye
  663. # [18:59] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  664. # [18:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/12-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  665. # [18:59] <Zakim> -Julian_Reschke
  666. # [18:59] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  667. # [18:59] <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
  668. # [18:59] <Zakim> -anne
  669. # [18:59] * oedipus who was Apple?
  670. # [18:59] * oedipus was that dsinger?
  671. # [18:59] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52) (Quit: dsinger)
  672. # [19:00] <anne> most likely
  673. # [19:00] <ChrisWilson> yes, it was DSinger
  674. # [19:00] <DanC> oedipus, do you have what you need to get a meeting record emailed to the WG?
  675. # [19:00] <oedipus> yes
  676. # [19:00] <ChrisWilson> (he stated that he was on the call)
  677. # [19:00] <DanC> thanks
  678. # [19:00] <oedipus> no problem
  679. # [19:00] <Zakim> -DanC
  680. # [19:00] <Zakim> -Sam
  681. # [19:00] <DanC> my email request for scribes produced zilch.
  682. # [19:00] <Zakim> -ChrisWilson
  683. # [19:00] <oedipus> present- Apple
  684. # [19:00] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  685. # [19:00] <oedipus> present+ Dave_Singer
  686. # [19:00] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
  687. # [19:00] <Zakim> Attendees were ChrisWilson, Sam, DanC, Gregory_Rosmaita, dsinger, +1.408.536.aaaa, masinter, +1.650.214.aabb, ifette_GOOG, Julian_Reschke, anne, Joshue, smedero, Cynthia
  688. # [19:00] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  689. # [19:00] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/12-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  690. # [19:01] <oedipus> rrsagent, make log public
  691. # [19:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, oedipus
  692. # [19:02] <oedipus> present- +1.408.536.aaaa, +1.650.214.aabb
  693. # [19:02] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  694. # [19:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/12-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  695. # [19:02] <pimpbot> Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 12 Feb 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  696. # [19:02] <oedipus> meeting: HTML WG Weekly Telecon
  697. # [19:02] <oedipus> chair: Chris_Wilson
  698. # [19:02] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  699. # [19:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/12-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  700. # [19:03] <pimpbot> Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 12 Feb 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  701. # [19:05] * Quits: cyns (836b0045@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
  702. # [19:05] <oedipus> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2009JanMar/0025.html
  703. # [19:05] <pimpbot> Title: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2009-02-12 from Chris Wilson on 2009-02-11 (public-html-wg-announce@w3.org from January to March 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  704. # [19:05] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  705. # [19:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/12-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  706. # [19:05] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG Weekly Telecon -- 12 Feb 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  707. # [19:06] <oedipus> rrsagent, please part
  708. # [19:06] <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/12-html-wg-actions.rdf :
  709. # [19:06] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Sam should arrange a meeting between chairs of HTML WG and XHTML WG to insure there is a plan for coordination of vocabularies to avoid incompatibilities. [1]
  710. # [19:06] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/02/12-html-wg-irc#T17-44-50
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  718. # [20:01] <takkaria> hi
  719. # [20:01] <takkaria> next week I'm happy to do something on testsuites
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  743. # [22:49] <anne> drafts got published; party time or something
  744. # [22:49] <anne> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/ and http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-diff/
  745. # [22:49] <DanC> nifty
  746. # [22:49] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at www.w3.org)
  747. # [22:50] * Philip tends to reserve his partying for more important occasions than a document being copied to a new URL :-p
  748. # [22:50] * Quits: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@67.154.87.254) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  749. # [22:50] <Hixie> Philip: how about unix time reaching 1234567890?
  750. # [22:51] <Philip> Hixie: Why should I care about a number that only has any significance in base 10?
  751. # [22:51] <Hixie> you need to party more :-P
  752. # [22:52] * gsnedders wonders if any reference to Philip partying is a contradiction of terms
  753. # [22:52] <gsnedders> s/of/in/
  754. # [22:53] * Quits: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  755. # [22:53] <Philip> Rather than partying, I sometimes allow myself a mild feeling of contentment for a few minutes
  756. # [23:07] <Lachy> we should also party cause it's Darwin Day today
  757. # [23:08] <Lachy> (for those who don't know, today is Charles Darwin's 200th birthday)
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  763. # Session Close: Fri Feb 13 00:00:00 2009

The end :)