/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-02-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Feb 12 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  8. # [00:34] <DanC> MikeSmith, do you know where this google group came from? http://groups.google.com/group/openweb-group/browse_thread/thread/59ecaef74958d932/fbf0dd175f3b2a2f#fbf0dd175f3b2a2f
  9. # [00:34] <pimpbot> Title: Whats OpenWeb take on XForms vs HTML5 Forms? - Open Web Advocacy | Google Groups (at groups.google.com)
  10. # [01:13] <heycam> DanC, http://groups.google.com/group/openweb-group/t/475f0718577357a5 seems to say what the list is for
  11. # [01:13] <pimpbot> Title: What This List Is About - Open Web Advocacy | Google Groups (at groups.google.com)
  12. # [01:13] <DanC> thanks.
  13. # [01:46] <pimpbot> planet: Anne van Kesteren: HTML5: Frames <http://annevankesteren.nl/2009/02/html5-frames>
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  18. # [03:08] <MikeSmith> DanC: dunno who the owner for that group is
  19. # [03:08] <MikeSmith> I seem to remember Dion Almaer mentioning it when I talked to him
  20. # [03:10] <heycam> i think brad neuberg is
  21. # [03:11] <MikeSmith> OK
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  40. # [10:02] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6563] New: Specify if innerHTML setting should use the quirkiness of the document" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Feb/0016.html> ** "[Bug 6562] Define parsing quirks" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Feb/0015.html> ** "[Bug 6562] New: Define parsing quirks" ( message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ht
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  48. # [11:08] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-html5-20090212/
  49. # [11:08] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at www.w3.org)
  50. # [11:09] <anne> will be published during the evening or so?
  51. # [11:12] <Philip> Hmm, code isn't orange any more :-(
  52. # [11:12] <heycam> yeah, /me is sad at the lack of style
  53. # [11:13] <heycam> if the point of publishing WDs is to solicit review, i think the poor styling will hinder that somewhat
  54. # [11:14] <zcorpan> anne: <form> gained autocomplete (for the diffs doc)
  55. # [11:14] <heycam> MikeSmith, did you use aaronsw's htmldiff for the diffed version?
  56. # [11:14] <anne> zcorpan, too late
  57. # [11:14] <MikeSmith> I didn't make a diffed version
  58. # [11:15] <heycam> oh, i see i was looking at the currently published version
  59. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> that one used something that I think Shane McCarron wrote
  60. # [11:15] <heycam> ok
  61. # [11:15] * Joins: darobin (robinb@81.66.15.230)
  62. # [11:16] <heycam> it's seriously crying out for some line-height love :/
  63. # [11:16] <heycam> also, the TOC looks a bit silly with the numbers!
  64. # [11:17] <myakura> ?
  65. # [11:17] <myakura> oops, i was looking at html5-diff
  66. # [11:19] <heycam> MikeSmith, could you just stick ol.toc li { list-style: none; } in the local <style> of Overview.html?
  67. # [11:24] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30)
  68. # [11:24] <zcorpan> why is gsnedders using <ol> for the toc anyway? :P
  69. # [11:25] <heycam> seems like the toc items should be ordered...
  70. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> heycam: changed & committed
  71. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> thanks
  72. # [11:30] <heycam> MikeSmith, thanks
  73. # [11:30] <zcorpan> heycam: "The ol element represents a list of items, where the items have been intentionally ordered, such that changing the order would change the meaning of the document."
  74. # [11:30] <heycam> i think changing the order would change the meaning of the document, since the list then wouldn't illustrate the order of sections in the document
  75. # [11:32] <zcorpan> the items are synced with the sections but you could reorder the sections and the toc
  76. # [11:32] <zcorpan> hixie sometimes reorders stuff in html5 without changing the meaning
  77. # [11:32] <heycam> but you couldn't change the order of the list without changing the order of the sections themselves to match
  78. # [11:32] * heycam bbl
  79. # [11:34] <zcorpan> Hixie: please clear this up in the spec :)
  80. # [11:34] * Parts: anne (annevk@85.196.122.246)
  81. # [11:35] <Hixie> hm?
  82. # [11:36] <zcorpan> Hixie: whether ToCs should use <ol> or <ul>
  83. # [11:36] <Hixie> <ol>, obviously
  84. # [11:37] <Hixie> the order is important
  85. # [11:40] <jgraham> ^ This is why semantics are an illusion
  86. # [11:40] <Hixie> semantics are a tool
  87. # [11:40] <jgraham> No one can agree on what they mean
  88. # [11:41] <jgraham> In some cases it works OK, I guess. Like people tend to put useful stuff in <title>
  89. # [11:45] <Philip> jgraham: That demonstrates we need a machine-readable way to encode the semantics of an element, so that humans don't have to agree amongst themselves
  90. # [11:47] <Hixie> -_-
  91. # [11:48] <Hixie> or alternatively /o\
  92. # [11:49] <jgraham> Is that supposed to be someone doing Yoga viewed end-on
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  94. # [11:51] <Hixie> heh no
  95. # [11:51] <Hixie> the former is rolling of eyes, the latter is one holding one's head in one's hands
  96. # [11:52] * Joins: anne (annevk@213.236.208.22)
  97. # [11:53] * zcorpan thought -_- was more like *sigh*
  98. # [11:53] <Hixie> right
  99. # [11:53] <Hixie> don't you roll your eyeballs when you sigh? :-)
  100. # [11:54] <Hixie> head down, rolling eyebals, sighing
  101. # [11:54] <Hixie> all at once
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  104. # [11:55] <zcorpan> maybe but i don't necessarily sigh when i roll eyes
  105. # [11:55] * Philip tends not to live in a pantomime
  106. # [11:56] <jgraham> Oh yes you do
  107. # [11:57] <Philip> -_-
  108. # [11:57] * jgraham totally fails to find any evidence of the bug that he is sure he filed on the table headers algorithm
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  110. # [11:59] <Hixie> jgraham: i might have fixed it :-)
  111. # [12:01] <jgraham> Hixie: Still seems to be wrong in the spec. And it doesn't come up in a search for fixed bugs
  112. # [12:01] * jgraham concludes that he lives in lala land
  113. # [12:02] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6438
  114. # [12:02] <pimpbot> Title: Bug 6438 Error in step 9.4 of the internal algorithm for scanning and assigning header cells (at www.w3.org)
  115. # [12:02] <Hixie> wow, there's a lot of bugs these days
  116. # [12:02] <jgraham> Oh so it is just that my bugzilla skillz are weak
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  121. # [13:51] <gsnedders> zcorpan: See, I did the right thing. The W3C styles just assume the wrong thing :P
  122. # [13:52] <gsnedders> (jg, if you see this pretend you haven't, I'll ping you later)
  123. # [13:54] <jgraham> gsnedders: OK, I will pretend you don't exist
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  135. # [15:26] <zcorpan> Hixie: is http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/canvas/007.html valid?
  136. # [15:26] <pimpbot> Title: Paths (at www.hixie.ch)
  137. # [15:32] <Philip> zcorpan: No
  138. # [15:32] <Philip> zcorpan: because the last S relies on transformations being applied at stroke-time, not path-creation-time
  139. # [15:34] <zcorpan> Philip: thanks
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  146. # [16:34] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 5822] The headers attribute should be able to reference a td" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Feb/0017.html>
  147. # [16:40] * Quits: zcorpan (zcorpan@88.131.66.80) (Quit: zcorpan)
  148. # [16:50] <anne> DanC, why was http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/62 closed and not marked e.g. pending review? we still haven't received a response afaict
  149. # [16:50] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-62 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  150. # [16:51] <anne> seems there's an associated issue so I suppose it doesn't matter, nm
  151. # [16:52] <DanC> anne, I looked into that, and we did get a response; at least they acknowledged receipt of Mike's msg
  152. # [16:53] <DanC> i.e. Roland did: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jul/0037.html
  153. # [16:53] <pimpbot> Title: Re: changes in HTML5 draft regarding XHTML1 from Roland Merrick on 2008-07-31 (public-xhtml2@w3.org from July 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  154. # [16:53] * Quits: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
  155. # [16:53] <DanC> anne, I asked Mike to keep the action until we got a response, but he didn't like that idea
  156. # [16:54] <DanC> and I'm not willing to do it either, so I'm not going to push on Mike
  157. # [16:55] <anne> fair enough
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  159. # [17:04] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6462] Self-reference and cyclic references in headers=''" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Feb/0018.html>
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  162. # [17:06] * rubys changes topic to 'HTML WG Weekly teleconference http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2009JanMar/0025.html (This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )'
  163. # [17:07] <anne> oh right, that's today too
  164. # [17:08] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  165. # [17:08] <anne> maybe I should start having a calendar one of these days
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  167. # [17:49] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  168. # [17:49] <ChrisWilson> zakim, this will be html
  169. # [17:49] <Zakim> ok, ChrisWilson; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start in 13 minutes
  170. # [17:52] <MikeSmith> ChrisWilson: hey. I'm boarding a plane in about 10 minutes. will be around on IRC until I need to actually board
  171. # [17:53] <ChrisWilson> OK. I saw the pub note, should we delay your action-77 on producing seperate document?
  172. # [17:54] <MikeSmith> yeah, need to delay that til next week
  173. # [17:54] <ChrisWilson> And Action-100 (adding note about issue-67 to status section)?
  174. # [17:54] <MikeSmith> issue-67?
  175. # [17:54] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-67
  176. # [17:54] <trackbot> ISSUE-67 -- Should "HTML5: The Markup Language" draft contain parsing rules and DOM APIs? -- RAISED
  177. # [17:54] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/67
  178. # [17:54] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-67 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  179. # [17:54] <MikeSmith> yeah, next week on that too
  180. # [17:55] <ChrisWilson> OK
  181. # [17:55] <ChrisWilson> have a good flight
  182. # [17:55] <MikeSmith> thanks
  183. # [17:55] <DanC> ACTION-77 due next week
  184. # [17:55] * trackbot attempting to change due date on ACTION-77.
  185. # [17:55] <trackbot> ACTION-77 Lead HTML WG to response to TAG discussion and report back to TAG due date now next week
  186. # [17:55] <MikeSmith> and yeah, about other publication, I've got both the HTML5 spec and HTML5-HTML4-diffs docs staged up ready to go -- just waiting for webmaster to review and update the TR/html5 symlink
  187. # [17:57] <ChrisWilson> cool, thanks.
  188. # [17:58] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
  189. # [17:58] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  190. # [17:58] <ChrisWilson> zakim, Microsoft is me
  191. # [17:58] <Zakim> +ChrisWilson; got it
  192. # [17:59] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.202.35.52)
  193. # [17:59] <Zakim> +Sam
  194. # [17:59] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-work
  195. # [17:59] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
  196. # [17:59] <Zakim> +DanC
  197. # [17:59] * Joins: masinter (user@192.150.10.200)
  198. # [17:59] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
  199. # [18:00] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  200. # [18:00] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/02/12-html-wg-irc
  201. # [18:00] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  202. # [18:00] <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
  203. # [18:00] <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
  204. # [18:00] <DanC> Topic: Convene, review agenda
  205. # [18:00] * ChrisWilson is looking for scribe volunteers...
  206. # [18:00] <DanC> GR: I have a report back on summary, alt, and table headers
  207. # [18:01] * DanC isn't in a good position to do the whole job today
  208. # [18:01] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233)
  209. # [18:01] <Lachy> I'm here, IRC only (but won't be here for the whole meeting)
  210. # [18:01] <oedipus> i can scribe, but have a noisy keyboard\
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  212. # [18:01] * ChrisWilson says the first day of new password is always the worst.
  213. # [18:01] <oedipus> i can always go on mute
  214. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.408.536.aaaa
  215. # [18:01] * ifette is now known as ifette_GOOG
  216. # [18:01] <oedipus> Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
  217. # [18:01] <oedipus> ScribeNick: oedipus
  218. # [18:01] <DanC> Zakim, aaa is masinter
  219. # [18:01] <Zakim> sorry, DanC, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'
  220. # [18:01] <DanC> Zakim, aaaa is masinter
  221. # [18:01] <Zakim> +masinter; got it
  222. # [18:01] <Zakim> + +1.650.214.aabb
  223. # [18:01] <ifette_GOOG> Zakim, aabb is ifette_GOOG
  224. # [18:01] <Zakim> +ifette_GOOG; got it
  225. # [18:02] <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
  226. # [18:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/12-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
  227. # [18:02] <Zakim> +Julian_Reschke
  228. # [18:02] <Julian> Zakim, mute me
  229. # [18:02] <Zakim> Julian_Reschke should now be muted
  230. # [18:02] <DanC> (pls mail rather tahn pasting)
  231. # [18:02] * Joins: Joshue (Joshue@86.45.208.167)
  232. # [18:03] <DanC> Topic: ISSUE-32 (table-summary)
  233. # [18:03] <ChrisWilson> reviewing items out of order to take Gregory's item first...
  234. # [18:03] <ChrisWilson> action-104?
  235. # [18:03] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-104
  236. # [18:03] <trackbot> ACTION-104 -- Gregory Rosmaita to inquire about table summary and headers status at PFWG caucus on 2009-02-06 -- due 2009-02-12 -- OPEN
  237. # [18:03] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/104
  238. # [18:03] <ifette_GOOG> Zakim, ACTION-104?
  239. # [18:03] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, ifette_GOOG.
  240. # [18:03] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-104 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  241. # [18:03] <DanC> action-104?
  242. # [18:03] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-104
  243. # [18:03] <trackbot> ACTION-104 -- Gregory Rosmaita to inquire about table summary and headers status at PFWG caucus on 2009-02-06 -- due 2009-02-12 -- OPEN
  244. # [18:03] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/104
  245. # [18:03] <ChrisWilson> GR:summary: discussion is ongoing
  246. # [18:03] * DanC "the discussion"? which discussion?
  247. # [18:03] <oedipus> @summary: an ongoing discussion, as PF WG already made an official announcement on this issue and requested the attribute be re-instated, consult:
  248. # [18:03] <pimpbot> oedipus: Huh?
  249. # [18:04] <oedipus> @headers: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders - consensus is that the new headers wording is good
  250. # [18:04] <pimpbot> oedipus: Huh?
  251. # [18:04] <anne> Zakim, passcode?
  252. # [18:04] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), anne
  253. # [18:04] <DanC> (new headers wording; is that the 20 Dec edit?)
  254. # [18:04] <oedipus> @alt: Steve's reply to Dan on the public HTML list clearly indicates that the item should remain open as discussions are ongoing. (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Feb/0266.html)
  255. # [18:04] <pimpbot> oedipus: Huh?
  256. # [18:04] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  257. # [18:04] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.)
  258. # [18:04] <anne> Zakim, [IPCaller] is me
  259. # [18:04] <Zakim> +anne; got it
  260. # [18:05] <Zakim> +??P15
  261. # [18:05] <Joshue> zakim, ??P15 is Joshue
  262. # [18:05] <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
  263. # [18:05] <oedipus> GJR: hope to have timely feedback soon on alt -- being discussed in WAI Coordination Group
  264. # [18:05] * Joshue what issue is this?
  265. # [18:06] <oedipus> GJR: may be able to givce concrete time-frame on friday
  266. # [18:06] * Joins: smedero (smedero@192.223.6.251)
  267. # [18:06] * DanC would like us to finish discussion of summary before broadening
  268. # [18:06] <rubys> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/32
  269. # [18:06] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-32 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  270. # [18:06] * Joshue thanks
  271. # [18:06] * ChrisWilson DanC: just a sec, we'll circle back.
  272. # [18:06] <oedipus> GJR: to be on safe side - 2 to 3 weeks
  273. # [18:07] <Zakim> + +1.425.646.aacc
  274. # [18:07] <smedero> Zakim, +1.425.646.aacc is me
  275. # [18:07] <Zakim> +smedero; got it
  276. # [18:07] <oedipus> GJR: will try and get more detailed timeline at PF HTML Issues caucus on friday
  277. # [18:07] <oedipus> GJR: will report back via email as well as follow up report in email
  278. # [18:07] <oedipus> CW: circle back to summary
  279. # [18:08] <Joshue> +q
  280. # [18:08] * Zakim sees Joshue on the speaker queue
  281. # [18:08] <ChrisWilson> ack Joshue
  282. # [18:08] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  283. # [18:08] <oedipus> JOC: officially pf already made response to summary issue
  284. # [18:08] <DanC> (pointer to PF's position on summary?)
  285. # [18:08] <Joshue> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0213.html
  286. # [18:08] * oedipus i zapped it by mistake - need to get again - josh, handy?
  287. # [18:08] <pimpbot> Title: Re: Request for PFWG WAI review of summary for tabular data from Al Gilman on 2008-08-06 (public-html@w3.org from August 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
  288. # [18:09] <oedipus> DC: that says summary should stay but not why
  289. # [18:09] <oedipus> JOC: a lot of discussion and related threads on HTML wiki
  290. # [18:09] <oedipus> CW: email just says need to discuss further -- like timeframe to work out details
  291. # [18:10] <Joshue> JOC: More on @summary http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SummaryForTABLE
  292. # [18:10] <pimpbot> Title: HTML/SummaryForTABLE - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
  293. # [18:10] <oedipus> JOC: discussion been circular
  294. # [18:10] <oedipus> q+
  295. # [18:10] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
  296. # [18:10] <oedipus> GJR: the question isn't why put it back, but why was it taken out?
  297. # [18:10] <anne> (I think the TF is about something else.)
  298. # [18:10] <Joshue> JOC: I am talked out on this one.
  299. # [18:11] <Joshue> JOC: +1 to GJR
  300. # [18:11] <DanC> (I'd rather the TF were more established before handing it something like @summary)
  301. # [18:11] <anne> (I.e. about ARIA and HTML.)
  302. # [18:11] <oedipus> SR: don't want recriminations - question is does it belong in HTML5 or not -- one camp thinks belongs, other doesn't - need to move out of entrenched position and arguments from other side
  303. # [18:11] <masinter> that was me, LMM
  304. # [18:11] <DanC> s/SR:/LMM:/
  305. # [18:12] <oedipus> GJR: a) summary was added specifically for an intended purpose; it is supported by ATs and is very useful in orienting the user to the table with which that user is about to interact -- longdesc for TABLE
  306. # [18:13] <oedipus> LMM: intent, but hasn't been used that way -- statistics might be disputed, but need better evidence of support
  307. # [18:13] * Joins: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217)
  308. # [18:13] <oedipus> CW: don't want to debate suport r lack of suppoprt
  309. # [18:13] <Joshue> JOC: Agree with Sam that we need to move beyond entrenched attitudes but a little sure at this stage exactly how to do that.
  310. # [18:13] <DanC> (with Sam? it was Larry)
  311. # [18:13] <rubys> s/Sam/Larry
  312. # [18:13] <oedipus> GJR: why isn't AT support sufficient?
  313. # [18:13] <Joshue> JOC: Sorry, Larry.
  314. # [18:13] <oedipus> q?
  315. # [18:13] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
  316. # [18:13] <oedipus> ack oe
  317. # [18:13] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  318. # [18:14] <Joshue> JOC: Chris, The problem is the nature of the required evidence.
  319. # [18:14] <oedipus> CW: if evidence in support in tools and use in content -- personal standpoint, that would be enough -- point to evidence and issue should be resolved
  320. # [18:14] <DanC> (did I miss the data about support in authoring tools? where was it given? it's not in 2008Aug/0213.html )
  321. # [18:15] <oedipus> CW: don't know the data that says this is supoprted in accessibility tools
  322. # [18:15] <Joshue> +q
  323. # [18:15] * Zakim sees Joshue on the speaker queue
  324. # [18:15] <oedipus> GJR: yes, i use AT for assistive technology
  325. # [18:15] <DanC> (following some links, I see something about GwMicro and Windows Eyes at http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SummaryForTABLE#head-efb5f42844e374dbc45ffe4dadd74ea8a29d54bf )
  326. # [18:15] <pimpbot> Title: HTML/SummaryForTABLE - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
  327. # [18:15] <oedipus> CW: get evidence out there in mail thread, point to it and should resolve itself
  328. # [18:15] <masinter> Dreamweaver supports table summary, and has "since time immemorial"
  329. # [18:16] <oedipus> LMM: dreamweaver suppored summary since time immemorial
  330. # [18:16] <Joshue> JOC: That is pretty good evidence.
  331. # [18:16] <oedipus> GJR: supported by Window-Eyes and JAAWS for Windows