/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-02-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Feb 13 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  20. # [03:44] <pimpbot> planet: Open Design Lunch video — Fennec Bookmarks <http://jonoscript.wordpress.com/2009/02/13/open-design-lunch-video-fennec-bookmarks/>
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  31. # [08:01] <zcorpan> jgraham: are the pimp options not available for the file upload?
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  35. # [08:44] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6529] value DOM attribute for input element in File Upload state" ( message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Feb/0019.html>
  36. # [08:45] <zcorpan> Hixie: typo: filenmae
  37. # [08:46] <zcorpan> Hixie: (twice)
  38. # [08:47] <zcorpan> Hixie: (uh, nm, it was just once)
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  46. # [08:54] <Hixie> zcorpan: thx
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  59. # [09:14] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6536] Time element examples should be in the context of a goal-oriented microformat use case" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Feb/0020.html>
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  68. # [11:15] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6529] value DOM attribute for input element in File Upload state" (1 message in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Feb/0021.html>
  69. # [11:46] <zcorpan> maybe someone should mention on the mailing list that html5 was published?
  70. # [11:47] <anne> feel free
  71. # [11:47] <anne> public-html-wg-announce is probably the best place
  72. # [12:16] <zcorpan> done
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  78. # [13:04] <hsivonen> I'll be talking about HTML Design Principles as part of my HTML5 lecture. Any tips on presenting the principles?
  79. # [13:04] <hsivonen> that is, any experiences from presenting them previously to a live audience?
  80. # [13:20] * Joins: Stevef (chatzilla@82.44.69.8)
  81. # [13:21] <jgraham> hsivonen: At @media I think most people found that part of the talk dull
  82. # [13:21] <jgraham> So make it short :)
  83. # [13:21] <jgraham> (but I guess you are playing to a slghtly different crowd)
  84. # [13:21] <Stevef> anybody have any data on @summary usage apart from philip and bens?
  85. # [13:22] <jgraham> Stevef: I think Hixie looked at this but I don't know if the data was public
  86. # [13:22] <hsivonen> jgraham: hmm. I was thinking of going through the principles one-by-one
  87. # [13:23] <hsivonen> jgraham: talking the first 45 minutes about history and design principles
  88. # [13:23] <hsivonen> and the second 45 minutes about concrete stuff
  89. # [13:23] <Stevef> hixie: do you have any publically available data on @summary usage (aprt from philip and bens)?
  90. # [13:25] <hsivonen> Stevef: do you have anecdotal data from blind/low-vision users on whether they query tables for summaries and if they do whether the summaries tend to be useful?
  91. # [13:25] <hsivonen> (not-anecdotal data would of course be even better)
  92. # [13:26] <Stevef> i have asked for screen reader users thoughts on summary (today) on twitter) so hopefully will get some feedback, also blind users i have talked to like it, but they may be biased
  93. # [13:26] <jgraham> hsivonen: That's roughly waht we did at @media (except more like 30 minutes) and I think it was maybe 15 minutes too long
  94. # [13:26] <jgraham> But that was more of a practical talk to web developers
  95. # [13:27] <hsivonen> jgraham: I see
  96. # [13:27] <Stevef> but the way support is in JAWS etc, they don't have to query it, so many may not know of its existance even though they get it announced to them.
  97. # [13:27] <hsivonen> jgraham: I have trouble figuring out how to explain what HTML5 is about in the context of a more XForms-oriented course without going through history and principles
  98. # [13:28] <Stevef> did some searching last night and found it is used reasonable frequently on US gov sites and is usually (it appears) useful info, but it is difficult for me as a sighted user to measure its utitlity
  99. # [13:29] <hsivonen> Stevef: existing implementations are definitely an argument in favor of summary. So to not have it in HTML5, there'd need to be evidence that users resent it as used as junk
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  101. # [13:30] <jgraham> hsivonen: I think I agree
  102. # [13:30] <Stevef> will write up my findings and review of philip/bens data and rpovide more info about its support in AT, intereetingly in JAWS the junk summarys on layout tables are not announced (nor are the tables) as JAWS has a layout table filter
  103. # [13:31] <Stevef> so negative effect of junk is mitigated somehwat.
  104. # [13:31] <hsivonen> Stevef: interesting. Is the filter algorithm public and something that could be included in the rendering section?
  105. # [13:31] <Stevef> not likely, they are very ecretive about their code, but i will ping freedom scientific and see
  106. # [13:33] <jgraham> hsivonen: The slides we used were http://lachy.id.au/slides/hands-on-html5/
  107. # [13:33] <Stevef> i remember that aaron mentioned soemthing about firefox having some sort of algorithm to filter out layout tables from accessibility info, will ping him to
  108. # [13:33] <pimpbot> Title: Getting Your Hands Dirty with HTML 5 (at lachy.id.au)
  109. # [13:35] <Philip> Stevef: I could easily produce a larger list of summary values than the old version at http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/summary.html , if that would be informative for seeing a larger variety of how people commonly use summary, but I don't know whether it would really be worthwhile or if anyone would want to look at it
  110. # [13:35] <pimpbot> Title: summary (at canvex.lazyilluminati.com)
  111. # [13:36] <Philip> ("larger" means a few thousand pages (though a lot are all from a handful of sites like Wikipedia))
  112. # [13:37] <jgraham> hsivonen, Stevef http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/accessible/src/html/nsHTMLTableAccessible.cpp#1029 looks promising
  113. # [13:37] <hsivonen> jgraham: my slide style uses less text than yours & Lachy's, but I'm tempted to use the photos
  114. # [13:37] <pimpbot> Title: mozilla-central mozilla/accessible/src/html/nsHTMLTableAccessible.cpp (at mxr.mozilla.org)
  115. # [13:39] <Stevef> Philip: i have been looking at your list and some of the entries are old, and no longer have summary attributes, I think it would be worthwhile scraping a selection of site that are likely to use the attribute, such as government sites, i did a quick search for the term "table 1" on us/uk gov sites last night and found about 1/15 results included a table with the summary attrbute, so have...
  116. # [13:39] <Stevef> ...collected 20 or so URLS.
  117. # [13:41] <Stevef> jgraham: thats what aaron was referring to i guess - thanks.
  118. # [13:43] <Philip> Stevef: I currently have about 130K pages randomly selected from dmoz.org a few weeks ago, and it looks like 4009 pages use <table summary> which includes 99 from .gov
  119. # [13:44] <Stevef> can you provide the 99 gov urls?
  120. # [13:45] <Stevef> do you any way to date the pages?
  121. # [13:45] <hsivonen> Philip: how many of the 4009 have the empty string as the summary?
  122. # [13:46] <Stevef> philip: also if you could provide a 100 random would be useful
  123. # [13:48] <Philip> hsivonen: 716 have at least one empty summary, 3414 have at least one non-empty summary, but the numbers are largely meaningless because they're heavily influenced by a few sites with lots of pages
  124. # [13:51] <jgraham> Philip: Would it help to select a random page per site?
  125. # [13:56] <Philip> Stevef: http://philip.html5.org/data/table-summary-gov.txt
  126. # [13:56] <Philip> Stevef: http://philip.html5.org/data/table-summary-all.txt
  127. # [13:56] <Stevef> note: wcag 2.0 advice on empty summary attribute "A null summary (summary="") on layout tables is acceptable." http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H73.html
  128. # [13:56] <pimpbot> Title: H73: Using the summary attribute of the table element to give an overview of data tables | Techniques for WCAG 2.0 (at www.w3.org)
  129. # [13:57] <Stevef> philip: thanks!
  130. # [13:57] <Philip> (The latter is all the pages, in a random order so you could pick some subset of them if you want)
  131. # [13:58] <Philip> Stevef: I know the date when the pages were downloaded and contained that markup, but I don't think I have any way to work out when they were created or modified
  132. # [13:58] <hsivonen> Philip: if the 716 use summary="" to accurately flag layout tables, that in itself is useful
  133. # [13:58] <Philip> (The only thing I can imagine is the HTTP date fields, but they seem to be hopelessly inaccurate)
  134. # [13:59] <Stevef> philip: thought that may be the case, no matter, cheers.
  135. # [13:59] <Philip> jgraham: That probably would help, but I can't think of an easy way to do it with one line of Perl, so I haven't bothered doing that yet
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  138. # [14:21] <Stevef> philip: it appears that there are a lot of home pages in the sample, is that due to the sampling method?
  139. # [14:23] <jgraham> Stevef: That seems likely since it is dmoz data
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  141. # [14:26] <Stevef> jgraham: yeah, most of the data tables with @summary i found last night are one or 2 directories down in the site
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  144. # [15:27] <Stevef> hsivonen: talked to MarcoZ on moz #accessibility IRC, his anecdotal remarks on @summary: " I use it regularly if I know a page has multiple tables with useful summaries. JAWS offers a "list tables" feature, and it shows the table summary as a list entrie's caption if available. Makes finding the right table extremely easy. In fact, we're currently revamping some of the Firefox download pages...
  145. # [15:27] <Stevef> ...on mozilla.com, and I advertised for the different tables to get meaningful summaries (they had the same summary text for each table in the first draft). In short, if implemented properly, I, for one, make good use of it."
  146. # [15:29] <jgraham> Stevef: Interesting. Any chance MarcoZ can join us?
  147. # [15:30] <Stevef> don't know will ask if he is available
  148. # [15:37] <Philip> Stevef: Indeed, it's just sampled from the pages linked from dmoz.org, i.e. chosen by human editors as adequately interesting pages, so it'll be biased towards entry pages to sites rather than deep content of more limited interest
  149. # [15:37] <Stevef> jgraham: marcoZ said he will drob by
  150. # [15:39] <jgraham> Stevef: Cool
  151. # [15:43] * Joins: MarcoZ (marco.zehe@82.83.95.18)
  152. # [15:44] <MarcoZ> Hi there!
  153. # [15:44] <jgraham> MarcoZ: Hi!
  154. # [15:44] <MarcoZ> hi jgraham! Stevef tells me you have a few questions on the usefulness of table summaries?
  155. # [15:45] <jgraham> Yeah, so this is a big deal in the html-wg
  156. # [15:45] <jgraham> I will try to explain why
  157. # [15:46] <jgraham> Basically the @summary attribute is the canonical way to provide summaries in HTML 4. But it has not been included in HTML 5 so far because it looked like it was not used much, because it looked like it was often used in a bad way and because there are objections to its design
  158. # [15:47] <jgraham> (the last word there should be "design")
  159. # [15:47] <MarcoZ> jgraham: k...
  160. # [15:48] <MarcoZ> jgraham: My personal experience as a user is that, if I encounter them, or a table caption, which is sort of in the similar direction of the matter, the author usually took care of giving this content useful info.
  161. # [15:48] <jgraham> The fundamental objection to the design is that it is hidden metadata which means that it seems likely to get out of date because e.g. someone changes the table but doesn't update the summary. And also, it is not avaliable to people not using screen readers, who might also find it useful in some cases
  162. # [15:48] <jgraham> And I guess it is hard to QA because many web designers don't have screenreaders
  163. # [15:49] <MarcoZ> jgraham: And personally I find them very useful. JAWS and other screen readers provide means of navigating to data tables by means of a quick navigation keystroke. The table summary or caption, whichever is present, are then spoken automatically, giving immediate context to what the data table is about.
  164. # [15:49] <jgraham> MarcoZ: OK. Do you encounter them often?
  165. # [15:50] <jgraham> Is there generally a difference between the type of content you encounter in <caption> / @summary?
  166. # [15:50] <MarcoZ> jgraham: I encounter them mostly on pages which try to adhere to WCAG, which also have mostly navigation items in lists, proper heading markup etc.
  167. # [15:50] <jgraham> My understanding is that WCAG suggests that the summary should be longer than the caption
  168. # [15:51] <jgraham> (maybe JAWS doesn't expose where the data comes from?)
  169. # [15:52] <Stevef> jgraham: when navigating tables using the T key jaws reads the summary prefixed with "summary"
  170. # [15:52] <jgraham> Stevef: OK, so it does expose the difference. Cool
  171. # [15:52] <MarcoZ> jgraham: JAWS indicates if it's a summary, the caption is spoken without extra indication. Also, when looking at the flat virtual buffer representation, the summary always preceedes the table structure in JAWS, whereas the caption is part of the table structure.
  172. # [15:53] <MarcoZ> And +1 to what Stevef said.
  173. # [15:53] <jgraham> So the caption could be before or after the table
  174. # [15:54] <Stevef> if you call up a table list in JAWS, if the caption is present it will use that to identify the table, if not and a summary is present it will use the summary
  175. # [15:54] <MarcoZ> jgraham: For example on this page taken from the Freedom Scientific Surf's Up training material, the table caption is the first item within each table:http://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Surfs-Up/Tables.htm
  176. # [15:54] <pimpbot> Title: Tables with JAWS and MAGic (at www.freedomscientific.com)
  177. # [15:54] <MarcoZ> The summary always comes before the table structure in this example as well.
  178. # [15:54] <jgraham> MarcoZ: OK, do you think there is a difference in the type of information that people put in <caption> and @summary?
  179. # [15:55] <MarcoZ> jgraham: In this example there definitely is a difference, since FS chose to use both summary and caption.
  180. # [15:55] <MarcoZ> jgraham: I don't see both used that often, I believe I see @summary more often than caption actually.
  181. # [15:55] <jgraham> MarcoZ: Interesting.
  182. # [15:57] <jgraham> That seems to be compatible with what http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama-tables/#table is saying
  183. # [15:57] <pimpbot> Title: MAMA: Tables - Opera Developer Community (at dev.opera.com)
  184. # [15:58] <hsivonen> MarcoZ: are bogus summaries a problem in practice?
  185. # [15:58] <MarcoZ> hsivonen: No. They're either there and useful, or they're absent.
  186. # [15:58] <hsivonen> MarcoZ: OK.
  187. # [15:59] <MarcoZ> hsivonen: In fact, I just recently QA'd the two new download pages we're doing for Firefox 3.1 on mozilla.com, and suggested to make the summaries, which were already there, a little distinguishable to reflect the actual table contents better.
  188. # [15:59] <Stevef> as I mentioned in JAWS if the bogus summarys are on layout tables they are ignored due to the JAWS table heuristics
  189. # [15:59] <MarcoZ> In this case, download of fully localized builds versus beta localizations, which the original summary didn't reflect properly.
  190. # [16:00] * jgraham would like to try reverse engineering JAWS
  191. # [16:00] <MarcoZ> LOL
  192. # [16:00] <jgraham> (well that part of it anyway :) )
  193. # [16:00] <MarcoZ> Many people would love to do that I'm sure :-)
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  195. # [16:02] <jgraham> MarcoZ: I guess another issue is how @summary and <caption> fit in with aria-describedby and aria-labelled by. Maybe those are not used enough in the wild yet to ahve any real experience of how they are actually employed?
  196. # [16:03] * Parts: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217)
  197. # [16:04] <Stevef> jgraham: neither attributes work yet (with AT) on non form control elements AFAIK
  198. # [16:04] <MarcoZ> jgraham: Well...The general rule of thumb is: If other means are available, don't use ARIA for the same purpose. So, if a caption or summary are available for describing a page, aria-describedby is not particularly recommended, and would have a different effect anyway I *think*.
  199. # [16:04] <MarcoZ> s/page/table/
  200. # [16:05] <jgraham> MarcoZ: OK. I was just wondering if JAWS did anything special with them and whether web developers were using them in a way that was similar/different to <caption> or @summary
  201. # [16:06] <jgraham> But I guess it is too early to tell
  202. # [16:06] <MarcoZ> jgraham: Definitely for data tables. So far, I've seen aria-describedby mostly to put additional information on focusable controls. JAWS exposes that as Insert+F1 help.
  203. # [16:07] <MarcoZ> A data table, in and out of itself, isn't focusable unless you make it so.
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  205. # [16:10] <jgraham> MarcoZ: Thanks for dropping in
  206. # [16:11] <Philip> (http://www.tee-rail-alliance.de/ uses <div aria-labelledby>; the only other site in my collection using aria-* is http://www.mooquack.com/odyssey/ with <input aria-required>)
  207. # [16:11] <pimpbot> Title: TEE Rail Alliance - Sparen in Deutschland, Österreich und der Schweiz (at www.tee-rail-alliance.de)
  208. # [16:12] <MarcoZ> jgraham: Thanks for inviting me! If you need help with usability questions in the future, feel free to ping again!
  209. # [16:13] <Stevef> FWIW we are seeing (as well as promoting) the use of ARIA to many of our clients, who are inclduing it in the web based apps
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  216. # [17:19] * tlr is now known as tlr-bbl
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  218. # [17:30] <DanC> weird... the spec license thread... does that have a home in the tracker?
  219. # [17:31] <DanC> ah...
  220. # [17:31] <DanC> action-29?
  221. # [17:31] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-29
  222. # [17:31] <trackbot> ACTION-29 -- Sam Ruby to follow up on the idea of a free-software-compatible license for a note on HTML authoring -- due 2009-09-30 -- OPEN
  223. # [17:31] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/29
  224. # [17:31] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-29 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  225. # [17:51] <pimpbot> planet: The Road to HTML 5: character encoding <http://blog.whatwg.org/the-road-to-html-5-character-encoding>
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  232. # [19:08] * Joins: rubys1 (rubys@75.182.92.38)
  233. # [19:08] <rubys1> ok, I have to ask... which Philip Taylor is "Philip" in IRC?
  234. # [19:09] <smedero> generally Philip TAYLOR isn't on #html-wg
  235. # [19:09] <smedero> so that would usually be: http://philip.html5.org/
  236. # [19:09] <pimpbot> Title: philip.html5.org contents (at philip.html5.org)
  237. # [19:10] <smedero> or perhaps you know him as Philip "hey, let me break your XML parser" Taylor.
  238. # [19:10] <smedero> at some point I think we had thread active Philip Taylors...
  239. # [19:11] <smedero> erm
  240. # [19:11] <smedero> s/thread/three
  241. # [19:11] <rubys1> three???!!!
  242. # [19:11] <rubys1> yikes
  243. # [19:12] <gsnedders> smedero: I don't think we had three. We had two who both posted from multiple email addresses.
  244. # [19:12] <Hixie> right
  245. # [19:13] <rubys1> I was hoping to point one of them at the link on http://www.w3.org/html/wg/ which is labeled "announcements".
  246. # [19:13] <pimpbot> Title: W3C HTML Working Group (at www.w3.org)
  247. # [19:14] <rubys1> Meanwhile, I think it has been over a year since Philip "hey, let me break your XML parser" Taylor has broken my site. :-)
  248. # [19:14] <smedero> ahh, you're looking for "TAYLOR" then... yeah, email is your best bet there.
  249. # [19:15] * Philip sees his IRC client blink manically
  250. # [19:15] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@213.236.208.22) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  251. # [19:15] <Philip> I'm the Philip Taylor who's pjt47@cam.ac.uk (except in the early days of the list, when I was a couple of other addresses too) and is philip.html5.org and breaks XML
  252. # [19:16] <smedero> You could start signing your emails PHILIP Taylor
  253. # [19:16] * Parts: anne (annevk@213.236.208.22)
  254. # [19:17] <Philip> There's one other who tends to go as Philip TAYLOR on the list, and who I don't think has ever been in IRC here
  255. # [19:17] <rubys1> Philip: any relation to Philip` on #whatwg?
  256. # [19:17] <Philip> rubys1: That's me too
  257. # [19:17] <gsnedders> He just has different nicks to confuse us
  258. # [19:18] <Philip> I consistently have the shortest nick that doesn't conflict with someone else who registered it on that network before me :-)
  259. # [19:18] * rubys1 is now known as rubys
  260. # [19:18] <gsnedders> Philip: Wouldn't that be Phi?
  261. # [19:19] <gsnedders> (at least here)
  262. # [19:19] <Philip> If someone is complaining about process issues, it's probably the other one
  263. # [19:19] <rubys> Or even "Ï•"?
  264. # [19:19] <Philip> s/the shortest nick/the shortest nick which begins with the string "Philip"/
  265. # [19:19] <Dashiva> Yeah, it's usually easy to tell which Philip :)
  266. # [19:20] <jgraham> Ï•lip
  267. # [19:21] <Philip> ϕꆺ
  268. # [19:21] <smedero> hahaha
  269. # [19:26] <Philip> rubys: http://intertwingly.net/stats/internalsearches.html
  270. # [19:26] <pimpbot> Title: Sam Ruby/Internal Searches (at intertwingly.net)
  271. # [19:27] <smedero> lol
  272. # [19:36] * Philip attempts to break the Referrers page too, but it seems it's non-instantaneous at generating the stats output
  273. # [19:57] * Joins: dglazkov (dglazkov@216.239.45.4)
  274. # [19:57] <dglazkov> DanC: ping
  275. # [19:59] * DanC tunes in, wondering what's up
  276. # [19:59] <smedero> dglazkov: (following over at #whatwg) you have to renew your invited expert status once a year
  277. # [19:59] <smedero> that's why sysbot is pinging you
  278. # [19:59] <dglazkov> ok...
  279. # [19:59] <dglazkov> what do I enter in 9. Possible W3C Membership
  280. # [20:00] <dglazkov> my employer is now Google
  281. # [20:00] <Hixie> if you're an employee of a member company, you should contact your AC rep (tv raman in your case) to make you a member
  282. # [20:00] <Hixie> instead of going through the invited expert process
  283. # [20:00] <dglazkov> ooh.
  284. # [20:00] <Hixie> it's this whole thing
  285. # [20:00] <dglazkov> this is very complex
  286. # [20:00] <dglazkov> :)
  287. # [20:00] <smedero> yes.
  288. # [20:00] <dglazkov> so I just let the invited expert ditty lapse?
  289. # [20:01] <DanC> good question
  290. # [20:01] <DanC> I'm still not clear whether W3C accounts are per-natural-person and follow you from job to job, or whether your'e supposed to get a new account when you move
  291. # [20:02] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@86.136.52.180) (Quit: Killin' teh intarwebs)
  292. # [20:02] <Hixie> per person
  293. # [20:02] <DanC> do you know how affiliations get changed?
  294. # [20:04] * DanC asks in the sysadmin channel...
  295. # [20:06] <DanC> administration of the W3C patent policy is pretty involved. I chuckle when the microformats.org web site says "This specification is subject to a royalty free patent policy, e.g. per the W3C Patent Policy..."
  296. # [20:07] <dglazkov> so what's a poor boy to do?
  297. # [20:07] * dglazkov likes instructions.
  298. # [20:07] <dglazkov> Soviet Army-style.
  299. # [20:07] <DanC> I'm hunting for instructions; but one thing is for sure: you're going to need an OK from TV Raman
  300. # [20:08] <DanC> <ted> in his user profile he can request a change of affiliation http://www.w3.org/Systems/userInfo or we can do it
  301. # [20:08] * DanC neglected to chop off the "or we can do it"
  302. # [20:09] <DanC> <ted> done
  303. # [20:10] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@86.136.52.180)
  304. # [20:10] <DanC> dglazkov, ted says there are more instructions in your inbox
  305. # [20:11] * Quits: darobin (robinb@82.233.247.234) (Ping timeout)
  306. # [20:16] <DanC> dglazkov? do you see those?
  307. # [20:16] <DanC> I gather your subscription to public-html was turned off when ted changed your affiliation; once TV Raman appoints you (using http://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/40318/change ), it'll get turned back on.
  308. # [20:17] <DanC> and we publish mboxes (for authorized users) if you want to fill the gap
  309. # [20:17] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 6529] value DOM attribute for input element in File Upload state" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Feb/0022.html>
  310. # [20:17] <dglazkov> no new messages so far
  311. # [20:17] <dglazkov> I'll write a quick note to TV Raman
  312. # [20:18] <DanC> ok
  313. # [20:23] * DanC is only slightly less confused now; hopes it works out
  314. # [20:23] * Quits: tlr-bbl (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Quit: tlr-bbl)
  315. # [20:28] <Hixie> DanC: i always just ask my AC
  316. # [20:28] <Hixie> well, "always"
  317. # [20:28] <Hixie> it's happened once :-)
  318. # [20:28] <Hixie> and hopefully that'll be it for a while...
  319. # [20:28] <DanC> right
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  330. # [23:20] <Hixie> is larry just baiting us now?
  331. # [23:21] <Hixie> why do people keep suggesting alt="" is optional when the html5 spec make it more explicitly required than any previous html spec?
  332. # [23:23] <Dashiva> Because by making it explicit, you remove the warm and fuzzy belief that it is an absolute requirement
  333. # [23:40] * Quits: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.6/2009011913])
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  335. # [23:59] * Parts: billmason (bmason@69.30.57.102)
  336. # Session Close: Sat Feb 14 00:00:01 2009

The end :)