/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-03-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Mar 01 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  37. # [16:28] * karl has difficulties to understand why ":" character should be forbidden of rel values by hsivonen's message
  38. # [16:29] <karl> >I suggest changing RDFa to use full IRIs instead of CURIEs. Then, suggest making it a conformance requirement for rel in both text/html and application/xhtml+xml that a rel token MUST NOT contain a colon or MUST be an absolute IRI and MUST NOT start with the string "http://www.iana.org/assignments/relation/". Authors SHOULD NOT mint relation IRIs that differ only in case.
  39. # [16:29] <karl> http://www.w3.org/mid/EFD8164E-31AA-4BD7-8127-F5E0E434DB32@iki.fi
  40. # [16:30] <hsivonen> karl: the use of colon would be the disambiguator between full-URI rel tokens and tokens that need "http://www.iana.org/assignments/relation/" prepended to them for RDF processing
  41. # [16:30] <hsivonen> karl: note the "or" in there
  42. # [16:30] <karl> yes I have seen the or
  43. # [16:31] <karl> are you referring to the possible conflicts with future schemes?
  44. # [16:31] <hsivonen> karl: I'm saying that if a token doesn't have a colon, it's a traditional-style token
  45. # [16:32] <hsivonen> karl: and if it has one, it's must be a URI (if it isn't, tough luck for anyone trying to process such a token as an URI)
  46. # [16:32] <karl> but if you say ":" is forbidden, you suddenly give magic to ":" which is not desirable either
  47. # [16:32] <hsivonen> no, I say, either must not have a colon or must be a full IRI
  48. # [16:33] <karl> understood that
  49. # [16:33] <hsivonen> that is, strings with colons but that aren't full IRIs would be authoring errors
  50. # [16:33] <hsivonen> karl: this is the same trick that XForms inputmode adopted
  51. # [16:33] <karl> still it gives magic to ":", because I see developers jumping on the "oh there is a :, this is a URI" in their code
  52. # [16:34] <hsivonen> karl: right. if a string with a colon isn't an IRI, you'd use whatever error handling RDF software uses when given a predicate that doesn't look like a URI
  53. # [16:35] <karl> hmmm a lot of pages will be broken, and a lot of processing software to be rewritten… not good :/
  54. # [16:36] <hsivonen> karl: what would the proposal break expect RDFa-in-text/html pages that have been deployed without REC backing?
  55. # [16:36] <gsnedders> Teh @rel wars@
  56. # [16:36] <gsnedders> *@
  57. # [16:36] <gsnedders> *!
  58. # [16:36] * gsnedders can't hit the right key
  59. # [16:37] <karl> hsivonen: I can't change the past. I can try to evolve it in a better direction.
  60. # [16:37] <gsnedders> You can't time travel? Peh. You're no good.
  61. # [16:37] <karl> When RDFa was in development, I asked to consider html too.
  62. # [16:38] <gsnedders> But XHTML is the future!
  63. # [16:38] <karl> gsnedders: memories can ;)
  64. # [16:38] <karl> gsnedders: nope :) XHTML is present. It's a daily reality for me. :) I'm using it
  65. # [16:39] <gsnedders> s/is the future/will replace HTML/
  66. # [16:39] <hsivonen> karl: it seems that various people have expressed concernes about various things to the specifiers of RDFa...
  67. # [16:39] <karl> hsivonen: the fact that RDFa processors in the "real world" (ahaha boomerang) are deployed to process tag soup served with text/html.
  68. # [16:40] <karl> hsivonen: "various people have expressed concerns about html5." This argument type doesn't fly.
  69. # [16:40] <karl> hsivonen: and note that I understand it is messy
  70. # [16:40] <gsnedders> So it lands?
  71. # [16:40] <karl> hsivonen: and that I wish it would be better
  72. # [16:40] <gsnedders> Or floats?
  73. # [16:40] <hsivonen> karl: it wasn't an argument. it was an observation acknowledging what you said
  74. # [16:41] <karl> gsnedders: crash ;)
  75. # [16:41] <hsivonen> karl: it's one thing to clean up past real world messes and to keep launching new ones
  76. # [16:42] <hsivonen> s/and/and another/
  77. # [16:43] <karl> rdfa in text/html is already part of the past. Or if you take this line, there will be a lot of things to remove from html 5 in the spirit :) variable geometry.
  78. # [16:44] <karl> rel="dc:title" which issue do you have with this kind of value? aka which kind of breakage it introduces in deployed softwares?
  79. # [16:44] <karl> aka does it break something?
  80. # [16:44] <hsivonen> karl: it doesn't seem like a good collaboration model that the WG in charge of the future keeps creating more and more past for the HTML WG to deal with
  81. # [16:44] <karl> hmmmm I see a possibility though
  82. # [16:44] <karl> oooooh
  83. # [16:45] <karl> urn:dc:title
  84. # [16:45] <karl> this is a uri
  85. # [16:45] <gsnedders> But dc:title is already deployed in large numbers
  86. # [16:45] <hsivonen> karl: one could register a URI scheme for dc :-)
  87. # [16:45] <karl> yes
  88. # [16:45] <karl> good!
  89. # [16:45] <karl> and creative commons could do
  90. # [16:45] <hsivonen> karl: and owl:sameAs it to the http DC URIs
  91. # [16:45] <karl> yep yep
  92. # [16:46] <karl> *This* is a technical solution
  93. # [16:46] <karl> with minor modifications
  94. # [16:46] <karl> plus it avoids long ugly uris in the markup
  95. # [16:59] <karl> http://www.iana.org/assignments/urn-namespaces/
  96. # [16:59] <karl> Note: This is the Official IANA Registry of URN Namespaces
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  106. # [19:13] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/01-html-wg-irc
  107. # [19:13] <Ralph> rrsagent, please make record public
  108. # [19:13] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, Ralph
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  112. # [19:36] <Philip> karl: http://philip.html5.org/misc/most-common-rdf-namespaces.html
  113. # [19:37] <Philip> (That's really quite ugly markup)
  114. # [19:40] <karl> Philip: what is ugly?
  115. # [19:41] <karl> oh cool the data. thanks.
  116. # [19:41] <karl> ah the uglyness of the html source :)))
  117. # [19:41] <karl> Maybe a bit of tidy could help
  118. # [19:41] <karl> not sure
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  122. # [19:42] <karl> ah interesting
  123. # [19:43] <karl> xhtml is around the 1% cut
  124. # [19:47] <gavitron> so how is that whole HTML5 thing going?
  125. # [19:48] <Philip> We've pretty much given up on it
  126. # [19:48] <Philip> We're all switching to Flash now
  127. # [19:48] <gavitron> haha
  128. # [19:49] <gavitron> I had no idea it was so hopeless.
  129. # [19:49] <gavitron> All hail actionscript
  130. # [19:50] <karl> flash is soooo 90s.
  131. # [19:50] <karl> We moved to silverlight and Adobe Air.
  132. # [19:51] <gavitron> I've designed an entire cloud-based OS using JavaFX
  133. # [19:51] <gsnedders> http://backend.userland.com/RSS2# doesn't really even exist
  134. # [19:51] <pimpbot> Title: RSS 2.0 Specification (RSS 2.0 at Harvard Law) (at backend.userland.com)
  135. # [19:52] <gavitron> and it runs duke nukem forever..
  136. # [19:53] <Philip> gsnedders: http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#feed doesn't even exist as a domain name
  137. # [19:53] <pimpbot> Title: InfoWeb - A World Wide Web of Information (at schemas.google.com)
  138. # [19:53] <Philip> Oh
  139. # [19:53] <Philip> Uh, how does pimpbot resolve that URL?
  140. # [19:53] <gsnedders> Philip: But does it appear in any spec?
  141. # [19:53] <Philip> I very definitely get "schemas.google.com does not exist, try again"
  142. # [19:53] <gsnedders> Me too
  143. # [19:53] <Philip> pimpbot must be lying
  144. # [19:53] <pimpbot> Philip: Huh?
  145. # [19:54] <Philip> pimpbot: Stop playing dumb
  146. # [19:54] <pimpbot> Philip: Huh?
  147. # [19:54] * Philip sighs
  148. # [19:57] <gavitron> What is the most likely end scenario for the HTML5 video codec issue?
  149. # [19:57] <gavitron> in terms of interoperability
  150. # [19:58] <gsnedders> All out war occurs, and the whole world dies.
  151. # [19:59] <Philip> The most likely end scenario is that everyone will keep using Flash for videos
  152. # [19:59] <gavitron> I see
  153. # [20:00] <gavitron> I'll take the former.
  154. # [20:00] <gsnedders> Or, um, I guess we have a video codec war and Flash wins.
  155. # [20:06] <gavitron> I think there's still a chance to kill flash in mobile
  156. # [20:07] <gsnedders> In mobile I expect MPEG-4 will succeed no matter what the spec says
  157. # [20:07] <Philip> Based on my approximately zero knowledge of the situation, it seems unlikely that anything except H.264 will win on mobiles, because video needs dedicated decoding hardware and the hardware exists for H.264
  158. # [20:07] <gsnedders> It is more or less the case that most devices with real web browsers have hardware-level decoding for it
  159. # [20:07] <Philip> You're not going to send the same video content to mobiles and desktop machines anyway, so it's not much of a pain to use different codecs
  160. # [20:08] <Philip> (You're probably not going to send the same video content to mobiles and to other slightly different mobiles either)
  161. # [20:09] <Philip> (hence e.g. http://beebhack.wikia.com/wiki/IPlayer_TV#Comparison_Table having loads of mobile varieties)
  162. # [20:09] <pimpbot> Title: IPlayer TV - Beebhack (at beebhack.wikia.com)
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  174. # [23:13] * Topic is 'HTML WG Weekly teleconference http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2009JanMar/0030.html (This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )'
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The end :)