/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-04-23 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Apr 23 00:00:00 2009
# Session Ident: #html-wg
# [00:02] * Quits: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.8/2009032609])
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# [00:31] <pimpbot> changes: "W3C policy: fear of change, caution to the point of paralysis. Let's change the world, but without taking any risks! (whatwg r2973)" (5 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Apr/0094.html>
# [00:56] <karl> strong statement
# [01:03] <shepazu> karl, any idea what he's talking about?
# [01:05] <Philip> shepazu: He changed the W3C version of the spec from being in HTML5 to being in HTML 4.0 Transitional
# [01:05] <Hixie> shepazu: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-archive/2009Apr/0302.html
# [01:05] <Philip> (See diff on http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/spec/Overview.html )
# [01:05] <pimpbot> Title: CVS log for html5/spec/Overview.html (at dev.w3.org)
# [01:05] <shepazu> geez, talk about grandstanding...
# [01:06] <karl> :)
# [01:06] <shepazu> what a non-problem... don't we have something more important to deal with?
# [01:06] * Philip likes how the W3C version of the spec consistently crashes Opera (9.6) when it's about a fifth of the way through loading
# [01:07] <Hixie> shepazu: that was kinda my reaction (switching to html4 was 20 minutes of work)
# [01:07] <Philip> (Seems to work fine in some old version of 10.0, though)
# [01:08] <shepazu> great use of 20 minutes, Hixie... how else could you complain about the w3c's approved publishing formats, for a format that isn't even done yet
# [01:09] * shepazu goes back to much more important things
# [01:09] <karl> shepazu: :) yep. I think that's the good thing to do :)
# [01:10] * Hixie went back to more important things long ago, that's why he didn't keep arguing the point and just made the change
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# [04:56] <pimpbot> planet: 2009-04-22 Trunk builds <http://www.squarefree.com/burningedge/2009/04/22/2009-04-22-trunk-builds/>
# [05:04] <MikeSmith> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=465007
# [05:04] <pimpbot> Title: Bug 465007 Harmonize content sniffing in HTML 5 and Firefox (at bugzilla.mozilla.org)
# [05:21] <MikeSmith> @changes
# [05:21] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: "W3C policy: fear of change, caution to the point of paralysis. Let's change the world, but without taking any risks! (whatwg r2973)" (5 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Apr/0094.html> ** "pubrules fix" (5 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Apr/0089.html> ** editorial nits (17 more messages)
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# [07:33] <pimpbot> changes: "pubrules fixes (whatwg r2974)" (5 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Apr/0099.html>
# [07:37] <hsivonen> Hixie: If you are going with a Transitional doctype, could you please use one that doesn't trigger the quirks mode. think of all the copy&pasters
# [07:38] <hsivonen> specifically, could you use <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">
# [07:42] <Hixie> hm, yeah
# [07:50] <hsivonen> I think it's a bug in pubrules if they allow quicks-mode doctypes
# [07:52] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [07:52] <MikeSmith> though there are a number of bugs in pubrules that are higher on my list of things I'd rather see fixed before that
# [08:04] * MikeSmith reads about HTML Validator extension for FF
# [08:04] <MikeSmith> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/249
# [08:05] <MikeSmith> "The SGML parser is the same program than the one running behind validator.w3.org."
# [08:06] <MikeSmith> "The extension is based on Tidy and OpenSP (SGML Parser)"
# [08:10] <MikeSmith> I guess the "validation locally on your machine, without sending HTML to a third party server" case is an important one to consider
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# [09:06] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: you know about http://code.google.com/p/jsrelaxngvalidator/ ?
# [09:06] <pimpbot> Title: jsrelaxngvalidator - Google Code (at code.google.com)
# [09:07] <MikeSmith> "A javascript RelaxNG validator"
# [09:07] <MikeSmith> http://debeissat.nicolas.free.fr/relaxng.php
# [09:07] <pimpbot> Title: RelaxNG Validator in Javascript (at debeissat.nicolas.free.fr)
# [09:08] <MikeSmith> hmm, that demo page doesn't actually seem to work at all
# [09:09] <MikeSmith> oh, I guess it just takes a long time
# [09:09] <MikeSmith> a long, long time
# [09:11] <gsnedders> Javascript blatantly isn't quick enough
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# [09:13] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I was unaware. thanks
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# [09:36] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: my Minefield with HTML5 parser is not rendering any of HTML files in http://dev.w3.org/html5/tests/validation/full/invalid/unknown-attribute/
# [09:36] <pimpbot> Title: Index of /html5/tests/validation/full/invalid/unknown-attribute (at dev.w3.org)
# [09:37] <MikeSmith> e.g.,
# [09:37] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/tests/validation/full/invalid/unknown-attribute/ins.html
# [09:37] <pimpbot> Title: element ins with invalid attribute (at dev.w3.org)
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# [10:11] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: interesting
# [10:11] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it is also failing some very simple baseline sanity Mozilla reftests
# [10:11] <hsivonen> perhaps there's an issue with too small files?
# [10:11] <hsivonen> need to investigate
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# [10:33] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: seems to be consistent, at least :)
# [10:33] <MikeSmith> I mean for all those files
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# [11:08] <billyjackass> hsivonen: yeah, magic number seems to be 512 bytes
# [11:08] <billyjackass> not unsurprisingly
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# [12:12] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks!
# [12:13] <MikeSmith> np
# [12:13] * MikeSmith pats himself for accidental foresight of limiting himself to writing only stupidly simple test cases
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# [14:16] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: It's a bit scary that I managed to dogfood HTML5 parsing for nearly two weeks while the case of file under 512 bytes with no encoding declaration was completely, utterly broken
# [14:19] <jgraham> hsivonen: Don't you get test results from the try servers? Or are you ignoring thm because there is too much noise?
# [14:20] <hsivonen> jgraham: I was aware that all wasn't well with tryserver tests but I had no idea what the problem was and all my real browsing worked fine...
# [14:20] <hsivonen> apparently, the real world is over 512 bytes or has a declared charset
# [14:20] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: right
# [14:21] <MikeSmith> I don't think files with under 512 bytes are typical
# [14:22] <MikeSmith> anyway, I have a natural talent for breaking stuff without even trying
# [14:22] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks for finding this.
# [14:25] <hsivonen> of course, all the usual small test case runs happen though Hixie's live dom viewer, which runs through different IO code
# [14:25] <hsivonen> since the input is UTF-16 string rather than a byte stream
# [14:26] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: thank you for making it possible to do real-world testing with an HTML5 parser in an actual browser
# [14:26] <MikeSmith> I'm somebody else would have found that bug relatively soon too anyway
# [14:28] <jgraham> This channel has become very mutually congratulatory all of a sudden :)
# [14:29] <MikeSmith> jgraham: true. very astute observation on your part!
# [14:29] <MikeSmith> we clearly need some more acrimony here
# [14:33] <jgraham> Hey laser lips! Your mother was a snow blower!
# [14:36] * jgraham is clearly regressing to his childhood
# [14:36] <hsivonen> when did Hixie first put the parsing algorithm in the spec?
# [14:37] * Philip is too polite to know any insults other than the ones he learned from Monkey Island games
# [14:39] <Philip> hsivonen: There was a parsing algorithm in r1 from SVN
# [14:39] <hsivonen> Philip: thanks
# [14:39] <Philip> which was 2006-03-02
# [14:40] <jgraham> I think Hixie said that the parsing bit wasn't started untill 2006
# [14:41] <jgraham> On 5/11/2005 he said "The HTML5 parsing section will cover this in detail"
# [14:41] <Philip> r1 says "TIMELINE: january, february - parsing ..."
# [14:59] <pimpbot> planet: More Web Workers in Action <http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/ajaxian/~3/Y4qbVp0xqOs/more-web-workers-in-action>
# [15:09] <hsivonen> anyone got a timeline for Opera's <p><table> behavior?
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# [15:18] <Philip> hsivonen: It was apparently fixed in "build 7586", around 2005-05-09
# [15:19] <Philip> which http://snapshot.opera.com/windows/ seems to indicate was just before Opera 8.01
# [15:19] <pimpbot> Title: Opera for Windows - Previews and Betas (at snapshot.opera.com)
# [15:19] <hsivonen> Philip: thanks
# [15:19] <Philip> hsivonen: (but I haven't tested it myself)
# [15:20] <hsivonen> Philip: what's your source?
# [15:20] <Philip> hsivonen: The Opera bug database
# [15:20] <hsivonen> Philip: thanks
# [15:21] <hsivonen> Philip: do you work for Opera now?
# [15:21] <Philip> hsivonen: No
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# [15:44] <hsivonen> ok. blogged: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/last-html-quirk/
# [15:44] <pimpbot> Title: The Last of the Parsing Quirks (at hsivonen.iki.fi)
# [15:46] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: great title
# [15:47] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, your site has a really interesting way of progressively rendering in Webkit
# [15:48] * myakura sees underlines
# [15:48] * myakura has got the content :)
# [15:49] <hsivonen> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=25207 is still UNCONFIRMED
# [15:49] <pimpbot> Title: Bug 25207 - Text not visible while extenal font downloading (at bugs.webkit.org)
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# [15:52] <MikeSmith> http://ajaxian.com/archives/mypatterns-xslt-regex-for-js-objects
# [15:52] <pimpbot> Title: Ajaxian � myPatterns: XSLT / RegEx for JS Objects (at ajaxian.com)
# [15:53] <MikeSmith> I'm baffled by that title
# [15:54] <Philip> Looks like pattern matching from functional programming languages
# [15:54] <Philip> (but without the strong typing)
# [15:55] <MikeSmith> http://mypatterns.free.fr/more.html explains a little more
# [15:55] <pimpbot> Title: more on custom notations (at mypatterns.free.fr)
# [15:57] * Philip has written fun pattern-matching code like "match (state.c0, state.currentToken) with Some c, Some (TagToken ({ attributes = (an, av)::attrs } as t)) -> { state with currentToken = Some (TagToken { t with attributes = (c::an, av)::attrs }) } | _ -> raise BrokenAlgorithm"
# [15:59] <Philip> The destructuring assignment in JavaScript 1.6(? or 1.7 or something?) is basically the same thing
# [15:59] <Philip> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/New_in_JavaScript_1.7#Destructuring_assignment
# [15:59] <pimpbot> Title: New in JavaScript 1.7 - MDC (at developer.mozilla.org)
# [16:00] <Philip> Actually that's pretty much exactly what myPatterns is doing, it looks like
# [16:00] <Philip> "for each (let {name: n, family: { father: f } } in people) { document.write ("Name: " + n + ", Father: " + f + "<br>\n"); } " etc
# [16:01] <MikeSmith> interesting
# [16:18] <Philip> hsivonen: http://philip.html5.org/misc/p-table-ie1.png might be better evidence for IE's behaviour than the IRC logs
# [16:18] <Philip> Also it provides an opportunity to marvel at the UI design
# [16:19] <Philip> Oh, there's an address bar but it's disabled by default
# [16:22] * Philip updates the screenshot
# [16:23] <Philip> (Those are not genuine Win95 window decorations)
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# [17:00] <pimpbot> planet: <div>The Last of the Parsing Quirks</div> <http://hsivonen.iki.fi/last-html-quirk/>
# [17:02] * rubys changes topic to 'HTML WG 23 Apr http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2009AprJun/0008.html (This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )'
# [17:05] <Philip> rubys: Hmm, that message says "from 17:00Z to 18:00Z", but it links to a page showing "16:00:00 UTC" instead
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# [17:09] <rubys> Sigh.... I copied that from Chris Wilson's last week, and didn't catch that.
# [17:10] <anne> to be clear, it's in an hour right?
# [17:11] <rubys> T-52 minutes
# [17:12] <Philip> We should abolish absolute time, and refer to everything relatively
# [17:13] <rubys> That would wreck havoc with the HTML5 specification of the <time> element.
# [17:14] <Philip> When I see an email saying "the meeting is in 23h30m", and my mail client says the mail was sent "22h41m ago", it's trivial to work out when it's going to be, and there's none of this messing around with timezones
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# [17:56] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-html-wg-irc
# [17:57] <rubys> zakim, this will be html
# [17:57] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
# [17:58] <rubys> zakim, this will be html
# [17:58] <Zakim> rubys, Team_(xhtml)12:00Z is already associated with an irc channel; use 'move html to here' if you mean to reassociate the channel
# [17:58] * rubys wtf?
# [17:58] <annevk> Zakim, this is htmlwg
# [17:58] <Zakim> sorry, annevk, I do not see a conference named 'htmlwg' in progress or scheduled at this time
# [17:59] <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
# [17:59] * trackbot is starting a teleconference
# [17:59] * Joins: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217)
# [17:59] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
# [17:59] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML
# [17:59] <Zakim> trackbot, Team_(xhtml)12:00Z is already associated with an irc channel; use 'move HTML to here' if you mean to reassociate the channel
# [17:59] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
# [17:59] <trackbot> Date: 23 April 2009
# [18:00] <annevk> Zakim, this is html-wg
# [18:00] <Zakim> sorry, annevk, I do not see a conference named 'html-wg' in progress or scheduled at this time
# [18:00] <pimpbot> planet: WebKit's week - #8 <http://hanblog.info/blog/post/2009/04/23/WebKit-s-week-8>
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# [18:00] * rubys is really tempted to "move HTML to here" :-)
# [18:00] <annevk> Zakim, this is HTML_WG
# [18:00] <Zakim> ok, annevk; that matches HTML_WG()12:00PM
# [18:00] <Zakim> + +1.218.349.aaaa - is perhaps Laura_Carlson?
# [18:01] <annevk> Zakim, passcode?
# [18:01] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), annevk
# [18:02] <Zakim> +Sam
# [18:02] <Zakim> +??P9
# [18:02] <annevk> Zakim, ??P9 is me
# [18:02] <Zakim> +annevk; got it
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# [18:03] * ChrisWilson will be a couple of minutes late
# [18:04] <rubys> zakim, who is on the call?
# [18:04] <Zakim> On the phone I see Laura_Carlson?, Sam, annevk
# [18:05] * masinter will be a couple of minutes late too
# [18:05] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
# [18:05] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
# [18:05] <Zakim> +Mike
# [18:06] <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
# [18:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see Laura_Carlson?, Sam, annevk, Mike
# [18:07] <rubys> lets give it 2 more minutes, then cover what we can with the people we have, and then call it a week. Agreed?
# [18:07] * shepazu Zakim, call shepazu
# [18:07] * Zakim ok, shepazu; the call is being made
# [18:07] <Zakim> +Shepazu
# [18:08] <annevk> rubys, sounds fine
# [18:08] <MikeSmith> rubys: yeah
# [18:08] * annevk currently hears a bunch of beeps
# [18:08] <Zakim> + +47.22.60.aabb
# [18:08] <masinter> i can partcipate via IRC but can't dial in at the moment, sorry
# [18:09] <MikeSmith> masinter, it will likely be a relatively short call
# [18:09] <annevk> Zakim, who is on the call?
# [18:09] <Zakim> On the phone I see Laura_Carlson?, Sam, annevk, Mike, Shepazu, +47.22.60.aabb
# [18:10] <annevk> Zakim, aabb is Leif
# [18:10] <Zakim> +Leif; got it
# [18:10] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [18:10] <ChrisWilson> zakim, microsoft is me
# [18:10] <Zakim> +ChrisWilson; got it
# [18:10] <masinter> I had an action item which I can report on; TAG discussion on versioning will continue today.
# [18:10] <rubys> zakim, pick a scribe
# [18:10] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose annevk
# [18:10] <annevk> Zakim, Laura_Carlson? is Laura
# [18:10] <Zakim> +Laura; got it
# [18:10] <annevk> scribe: annevk
# [18:11] <Zakim> + +1.484.802.aacc
# [18:11] <rubys> zakim, who is making noise?
# [18:11] <smedero> Zakim, +1.484.802.aacc is me
# [18:11] <Zakim> +smedero; got it
# [18:11] <Zakim> rubys, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sam (4%), annevk (12%)
# [18:11] <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute Mike
# [18:11] <Zakim> Mike should now be muted
# [18:11] * annevk mutes himself locally
# [18:11] <smedero> Zakim, mute smedero
# [18:11] <Zakim> smedero should now be muted
# [18:11] <MikeSmith> action-103?
# [18:11] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-103
# [18:11] <trackbot> ACTION-103 -- Lachlan Hunt to register about: URI scheme -- due 2009-04-09 -- OPEN
# [18:11] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/103
# [18:11] <annevk> ISSUE-54?
# [18:11] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-54
# [18:11] <trackbot> ISSUE-54 -- tools that can't generate <!DOCTYPE html> -- OPEN
# [18:11] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/54
# [18:11] <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-103 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [18:11] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-54 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [18:12] <annevk> SR: What is the status of Lachy on this action?
# [18:12] <annevk> AvK: I think he is waiting for the other editor to move ahead (re about URLs)
# [18:12] <annevk> SR: If we page down we see that more actions are assigned to Lachy
# [18:13] <annevk> AvK: dunno about those
# [18:13] <smedero> Looks like joseph hasn't committed a change to the spec since early April: http://github.com/josephholsten/about-uri-scheme/commits/master/
# [18:13] <pimpbot> Title: Commit History for josephholsten's about-uri-scheme - GitHub (at github.com)
# [18:13] <annevk> ISSUE-56?
# [18:13] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-56
# [18:13] <trackbot> ISSUE-56 -- Assess whether "URLs" section/definition conflicts with Web architecture -- OPEN
# [18:13] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/56
# [18:13] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-56 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [18:13] <annevk> ISSUE-4?
# [18:13] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-4
# [18:13] <trackbot> ISSUE-4 -- HTML Versioning and DOCTYPEs -- OPEN
# [18:13] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/4
# [18:13] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-4 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
# [18:13] <rubys> larry, care to comment?
# [18:13] <annevk> DanC, any updates?
# [18:13] <masinter> the TAG discussed versioning last week, and is scheduled again today
# [18:13] * Quits: pimpbot (pimpbot@80.68.92.65) (Client exited)
# [18:14] <rubys> anything else worth reporting on the subject this week?
# [18:14] <masinter> email threads on www-tag, i think the discussion so far looks like it will be productive
# [18:15] <annevk> ISSUE-59?
# [18:15] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-59
# [18:15] <trackbot> ISSUE-59 -- Should the HTML WG produce a separate document that is a normative language reference and if so what are the requirements -- OPEN
# [18:15] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/59
# [18:15] <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute me
# [18:15] <Zakim> sorry, MikeSmith, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
# [18:15] <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute Mike
# [18:15] <Zakim> Mike should no longer be muted
# [18:15] <annevk> Zakim, Mike is MikeSmith
# [18:15] <Zakim> +MikeSmith; got it
# [18:15] <annevk> MS: The actions are still not completed
# [18:16] <annevk> SR: New target?
# [18:16] <annevk> MS: One week from now
# [18:16] <annevk> SR: Ok
# [18:16] <annevk> MS: Next week's call
# [18:16] <masinter> I am out next week, unfortunately
# [18:16] <annevk> ACTION-119?
# [18:16] * trackbot getting information on ACTION-119
# [18:16] <trackbot> ACTION-119 -- Michael(tm) Smith to push HTML diffs document and HTML5 out for another public draft -- due 2009-04-23 -- PENDINGREVIEW
# [18:16] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/119
# [18:17] <Zakim> +Julian
# [18:17] <annevk> MS: I moved it to PENDINGREVIEW since they have now been published; that's done
# [18:17] <annevk> SR: sounds good
# [18:17] <annevk> SR: I think that's it for the action items that are due. Did I miss any?
# [18:17] <annevk> [silence]
# [18:17] <Zakim> +Masinter
# [18:17] <annevk> SR: Towards the end of my agenda I listed an outlook to the future. Comments?
# [18:18] <masinter> i'm finally on the phone if there was anything i missed
# [18:18] * shepazu zakim, who is noisy?
# [18:18] * Zakim shepazu, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Masinter (34%)
# [18:18] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make inutes
# [18:18] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make inutes', MikeSmith. Try /msg RRSAgent help
# [18:18] <masinter> the schedule is aggressive
# [18:18] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:18] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [18:18] <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute Mike
# [18:18] <Zakim> MikeSmith should now be muted
# [18:18] <annevk> LM: the schedule is aggressive
# [18:19] <annevk> CW: although the schedule is aggressive the actions it forces us into I'm in favor of
# [18:19] <annevk> CW: it forces us into the prioritarization exercise
# [18:19] <annevk> LM: there was a question for me earlier that I wanted to address
# [18:20] * Joins: LHSilli (chatzilla@84.208.110.159)
# [18:20] <annevk> LM: the TAG discussion is continuing and I'm open to questions
# [18:20] <annevk> Zakim, Leif is LHSilli
# [18:20] <Zakim> +LHSilli; got it
# [18:20] <annevk> DS: Are you guys looking into tests? It's not necessary for LC but it's worthwhile to have them.
# [18:20] <annevk> SR: Any volunteers?
# [18:21] <annevk> CW: Are you asking for a person to organize the test suite or writing the tests?
# [18:21] <MikeSmith> takkaria volunteered to take the lead on managing the test suite
# [18:21] <MikeSmith> dunno if he still has time to do that or not
# [18:21] <annevk> SR: Either works fine. I'm personally in favor of not doing anything that's not required for which there are no volunteers.
# [18:22] <annevk> DS: [...] for which there is a place or framework?
# [18:22] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [18:22] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, MikeSmith
# [18:22] <annevk> CW: at some point we need a framework; not a bunch of tests floating around the interwebs
# [18:22] <MikeSmith> takkaria = Andi Sidwell
# [18:22] <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute Mike
# [18:22] <Zakim> MikeSmith should no longer be muted
# [18:22] <annevk> CW: we had a person appointed but he was going to be unavailable for a couple of months?
# [18:22] <annevk> DS: can we create an issue for this?
# [18:22] <annevk> MS: he hasn't been around much on IRC so I'm sceptic
# [18:23] <Philip> takkaria stated (some time ago) that he wouldn't have time in the near future for HTML stuff
# [18:23] <Philip> (Stated in this channel, in particular)
# [18:23] <annevk> MS: there was nobody making decisions on frameworks and doing the tests
# [18:23] <Philip> and that it would be sensible to look for someone else to do the test stuff
# [18:23] <annevk> MS: So I asked takkaria to take the responsbility to decide all the basics so we could get started
# [18:24] <annevk> AvK: Andi had indeed said on IRC recently that he doesn't have enough time
# [18:24] <annevk> SR: I commend his honesty
# [18:25] <Philip> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20090216#l-267
# [18:25] <annevk> SR: do you still think it's useful to have an action DS?
# [18:25] <Philip> # [20:33] <takkaria> news on the testsuite front:
# [18:25] <Philip> # [20:34] <takkaria> I'm afraid I'm not going to have time to do anything with it for a while, so someone else is best taking iton
# [18:25] <MikeSmith> Chair: SamRuby
# [18:25] * Quits: myakura (myakura@122.29.116.63) (Quit: Leaving...)
# [18:25] <annevk> DS: I don't have enough time.
# [18:25] <annevk> DS: [missed]
# [18:25] <annevk> SR: I hear interest from CW?
# [18:25] <annevk> CW: I'm certainly passionate about tests.
# [18:25] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:25] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [18:26] <annevk> SR: would it be sensible to have a repository where people can throw things in?
# [18:26] <annevk> CW: we can start there
# [18:26] <annevk> CW: getting the tests reviewed is hard
# [18:26] <Philip> There's a CVS repository set up for tests, but people were having ideas that it'd be better to put them on Git/Mercurial
# [18:26] <annevk> CW: we need to track whether tests have been reviewed
# [18:26] <MikeSmith> q+ to say that we do not want to begin storing test cases without having them reviewed
# [18:26] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [18:27] <annevk> CW: AvK you are actually in the CSS WG talking about this right now
# [18:27] <annevk> [I am, yes. It's slightly painful :) ]
# [18:27] <annevk> DS: There already is a test repository right?
# [18:27] <smedero> I thought there were also issues with the software licenses that could be used for a test
# [18:27] <annevk> MS: yes, fairly trivial
# [18:27] <annevk> DS: we can create a tracker product
# [18:27] <annevk> DS: we can argue about the best way of doing it or we can do something with what we have right now
# [18:28] <annevk> DS: use the review process that we have used for SVG
# [18:28] <annevk> DS: not ideal, but it's a start; can see what needs changing for HTML
# [18:28] <Philip> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Testsuite has some test-related thoughts and links
# [18:28] <annevk> DS: if I have a body of 10-20 tests I volunteer to start; just to get the ball rolling
# [18:28] <annevk> DS: put together a review process, test repository
# [18:29] <annevk> CW: Adrien pointed out some tests recently on local storage and cross-document messaging
# [18:29] <smedero> http://samples.msdn.microsoft.com/ietestcenter/html5.htm
# [18:29] <annevk> CW: they are offered under a license that allows you to do whatever you want (same as CSS)
# [18:29] <smedero> Sees DOM Storage and XDM test on that site
# [18:29] <masinter> maybe there's some cross-group test?
# [18:30] <Philip> I think Web Storage is now meant to be handled by the WebApps WG?
# [18:30] <smedero> There's also ARIA test from Microsoft here: http://samples.msdn.microsoft.com/ietestcenter/aria.htm
# [18:30] <smedero> dunno if there's any cross-over....
# [18:30] <annevk> [Scribe misses some discussion here from DS, LM, and CW.]
# [18:31] * shepazu notes that Larry missed SVG :)
# [18:31] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@86.136.52.180) (Ping timeout)
# [18:31] <annevk> LM: Need some coordination maybe. Some tests go beyond the boundary of WGs.
# [18:31] <annevk> CW: starting with unit testing would be a good idea
# [18:31] * ChrisWilson has to mute for a minute...
# [18:31] <annevk> DS: absolutely, but you have to start somewhere
# [18:32] <annevk> DS: start something up, transform it later
# [18:32] <annevk> LM: not so much boundaries, but layers
# [18:32] <annevk> LM: CSS on top of HTML
# [18:32] <annevk> DS: I meant boundaries between technologies
# [18:32] <Philip> (I think http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Testsuite#Existing_tests is a fairly complete list of current tests for HTML5)
# [18:32] <annevk> [obviously that part isn't minuted in full detail either]
# [18:33] <masinter> q+
# [18:33] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, masinter on the speaker queue
# [18:33] <annevk> DS: I'll take an action item on this to be done in two weeks, but I won't be here in two weeks.
# [18:33] <annevk> DS: you can still discuss it because it'll be done
# [18:33] <MikeSmith> q?
# [18:33] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, masinter on the speaker queue
# [18:33] <rubys> ack MikeSmith
# [18:33] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to say that we do not want to begin storing test cases without having them reviewed
# [18:33] <MikeSmith> ack MikeSmith
# [18:33] * Zakim sees masinter on the speaker queue
# [18:33] * Zakim sees masinter on the speaker queue
# [18:34] <annevk> MS: I just wanted to say that we don't want to check in testcases without proper review.
# [18:34] <annevk> MS: It's one thing to take a suite from Microsoft versus taking tests from anyone.
# [18:34] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@86.136.52.180)
# [18:34] <annevk> SR: Maybe have a unreviewed folder for those?
# [18:34] <Philip> MikeSmith, on the other hand it's easier to develop and start reviewing test cases when they're organised in a centralised repository
# [18:35] <annevk> MS: I'd rather have links to remote tests so authors can update the tests independently.
# [18:35] <annevk> MS: We have that for validator.nu too.
# [18:35] <annevk> MS: Simple JSON structure that points to the various external tests.
# [18:35] * Philip wonders why the authors wouldn't just be given write access to the repository
# [18:36] <annevk> MS: Just have a dump of tests without the person feeling responsible for fixing them is not too useful.
# [18:36] <Philip> External tests turn into 404s over time, which doesn't sound good
# [18:36] <annevk> DS: while I agree with you in principle. I'm not sure I want to sovle a problem we don't know the bounds of
# [18:37] <annevk> MS: fine with me. I'm just talking out of my [missed] here. I just want a person that feels responsible and sets it up.
# [18:37] <annevk> DS: I think we need a team.
# [18:37] <annevk> MS: that's fairly hypothetical.
# [18:37] * Julian gets interested
# [18:37] <annevk> DS: I will email saying that this is important. And promise them cookies and beer.
# [18:38] <MikeSmith> q?
# [18:38] * Zakim sees masinter on the speaker queue
# [18:38] <annevk> MS: We don't need the first in line. We need someone that is comitted.
# [18:38] <annevk> DS: Maybe someone from the browsers?
# [18:38] <rubys> ack masinter
# [18:38] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:39] * annevk wonders how that flies with the vast browser conspiracy theorists
# [18:39] <annevk> LM: We're trying to get together the plug-in community and figure out if we can improve things.
# [18:39] <shepazu> q+
# [18:39] * Zakim sees shepazu on the speaker queue
# [18:40] <annevk> LM: I'm soliciting folks who are interested in persuing this.
# [18:40] <annevk> LM: and also [missed]
# [18:40] <masinter> also thoughts on venue, is this in scope?
# [18:41] <shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/integration/SVGIntegration.html and http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/ref/SVGRef.html
# [18:41] <annevk> DS: LM I don't know if this is what you had in mind, but the links above are what the SVG WG is working on and I think there is some overlap
# [18:41] <ChrisWilson> I just fwded the info on our test cases to Doug...
# [18:41] <annevk> DS: with plug-ins. The first link is how SVG can be integrated by reference.
# [18:42] <annevk> DS: If SVG is included as image or CSS background, etc.
# [18:42] <annevk> DS: the second spec talks about having the parameters exposed on the Window interface of the embedded object
# [18:42] <annevk> DS: a lot of this stuff is solved for e.g. Flash
# [18:43] <annevk> LM: We talked to the people who did the Adobe Flash, Adobe Reader plug-ins. We also want to talk to people who do e.g. Java.
# [18:43] <annevk> LM: requirements such as making the back button work. Cross-domain security policies.
# [18:43] <takkaria> whoever looks at tests might want to look at http://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=Testsuite which I put together a few months ago
# [18:44] <annevk> DS: It would be interesting to see what issues you are facing
# [18:44] <annevk> LM: I have a priliminary doc
# [18:44] <annevk> AvK: how this affect HTML?
# [18:44] <takkaria> oh, ignore me, Philip already linked it. my bad
# [18:44] <annevk> LM: new HTML features should work with existing content
# [18:44] <smedero> s/how this/how does this/
# [18:45] <annevk> LM: existing content uses plug-ins; so new features need to interact with plug-ins
# [18:45] * Philip already linked to it twice :-)
# [18:45] * Philip thinks more links are always good to reduce the chance that people missed it, though
# [18:45] * annevk isn't sure this is relevant to work on HTML
# [18:45] * annevk plug-ins are <embed> / <object>
# [18:46] <Julian> q+
# [18:46] * Zakim sees shepazu, Julian on the speaker queue
# [18:46] <annevk> SR: anything else?
# [18:46] * shepazu wants a pony
# [18:46] <shepazu> q-
# [18:46] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
# [18:46] <rubys> ack julian
# [18:46] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [18:46] * ChrisWilson NEEEEEEEIIIIIIIIGGGH!
# [18:46] <annevk> JR: I was looking at the @profile issue.
# [18:46] <annevk> JR: If nothing is done will it be gone from HTML5?
# [18:46] <annevk> SR: Yes.
# [18:46] <annevk> JR: What will be needed for this not to happen?
# [18:46] * ChrisWilson pictures a pony with "SVG in IE" painted on the side, just for @shepazu
# [18:47] * shepazu lol
# [18:47] <annevk> JR: [something about a bug]
# [18:47] * shepazu tilts at windmills
# [18:47] <annevk> JR: I'd be in favor of an erratum for HTML4 and a similar fix for HTML5
# [18:48] <annevk> SR: If there is consensus for a change I'd be in favor, but I'm not sure if there is
# [18:48] <Laura> q
# [18:48] <annevk> SR: Anything else?
# [18:48] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.207.11) (Ping timeout)
# [18:48] <annevk> LC: does the same hold true for the summary attribute?
# [18:49] <annevk> SR: yes
# [18:49] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.207.11)
# [18:49] * ChrisWilson starts singing "What Do You Want Of Me"
# [18:49] * shepazu backs away slowly....
# [18:49] * ChrisWilson encores with "Impossible Dream (The Quest)"
# [18:49] <annevk> SR: the deadline is not next week, but if something needs to be done we do need consensus
# [18:49] <annevk> SR: anything else?
# [18:49] <annevk> SR: ok, adjourned
# [18:49] <Zakim> -ChrisWilson
# [18:49] * masinter wishes IRC log wasn't filled with irreverent chatter
# [18:49] <Zakim> -Sam
# [18:49] * ChrisWilson run, don't walk
# [18:49] <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Mike
# [18:49] <Zakim> MikeSmith is being disconnected
# [18:49] <Zakim> -MikeSmith
# [18:49] * annevk will not scribe next week
# [18:49] <Zakim> -smedero
# [18:49] <Zakim> -annevk
# [18:49] <Zakim> -Laura
# [18:50] <Zakim> -Julian
# [18:50] <Zakim> -Masinter
# [18:50] <Zakim> -LHSilli
# [18:50] <Zakim> -Shepazu
# [18:50] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
# [18:50] <Zakim> Attendees were +1.218.349.aaaa, Sam, annevk, Shepazu, +47.22.60.aabb, ChrisWilson, Laura, smedero, MikeSmith, Julian, Masinter, LHSilli
# [18:50] * ChrisWilson larry, that's why we do it in slash-mes. They don't show up in log.
# [18:50] * shepazu @masinter it won't be captured in the minutes
# [18:50] * ChrisWilson trust me, if it were a real back-channel you'd see what "irreverant" meant. If past experience is any indication. :)
# [18:51] * Quits: rubys (rubys@75.182.92.38) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [18:51] * Joins: adele (adele@24.7.123.50)
# [18:51] <annevk> masinter, the generated minutes exclude /me lines
# [18:51] <annevk> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:51] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html annevk
# [18:51] <annevk> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [18:51] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, annevk
# [18:51] * annevk wonders if someone can fix the defaults
# [18:52] <smedero> Regrets+ DaveSinger
# [18:52] <annevk> someone should prolly fix the minutes up a bit if we think they're useful
# [18:52] <annevk> e.g. introduce a few topic lines
# [18:53] <annevk> usually the topic of discourse was introduced while i was already writing things down so there was not really enough time to make it all fancy
# [18:54] * Quits: adele (adele@24.7.123.50) (Quit: adele)
# [18:56] <smedero> s/partcipate/participate/
# [18:57] <smedero> s/prioritarization/prioritization/
# [18:57] <smedero> s/responsbility/responsibility/
# [18:57] <smedero> s/iton/it on/
# [18:57] * Quits: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217) (Quit: Laura)
# [18:58] <smedero> s/sovle/solve/
# [18:58] * MikeSmith notes that topics can be inserted before some line with "i/Topic: /line before with the topic should be inserted/
# [18:58] <smedero> s/comitted/committed/
# [18:58] * MikeSmith s/before with/before which/
# [18:59] <smedero> s/persuing/perusing/
# [18:59] <smedero> s/priliminary/preliminary/
# [18:59] <smedero> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html smedero
# [19:01] <smedero> s/rubys, sounds fine/rubys: sounds fine/
# [19:02] <annevk> s/perusing/pursuing/
# [19:02] * smedero doh
# [19:03] * smedero yes, that makes much more sense. heh.
# [19:03] * smedero doesn't have time to fix up much else
# [19:03] * annevk wonders how the i/Topic: magic goes
# [19:03] <Philip> s/rubys: sounds fine/rubys, sounds fine/
# [19:03] * Philip doesn't think it was a quote
# [19:03] * annevk smedero, don't bother too much
# [19:04] <smedero> ScribeOptions: -noEmbedDiagnostics -final
# [19:04] <smedero> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [19:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html smedero
# [19:05] * smedero everyone happy then?
# [19:06] * smedero or as happy as one can be with an IRC transcript...
# [19:06] * MikeSmith requests that smedero remove more of the irreverence
# [19:07] * smedero you just mean the last few lines at the bottom there?
# [19:07] * MikeSmith smedero, remove the irreverent chatter and replace it with reverent chatter
# [19:08] * MikeSmith is just funning and can be safely ignored as usual
# [19:08] * smedero likes the cut of your jab
# [19:08] * Philip wonders if smedero means "jib"
# [19:09] * smedero quite possibly
# [19:09] * Philip might have missed the joke, though
# [19:10] <smedero> RRSAgent, bye
# [19:10] <RRSAgent> I see no action items
# [19:10] * Parts: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
# [19:11] <Philip> You don't want to mix up your jibs and your jabs, else the jibberwocky will get more frumious, and that would be dangerous to all involved
# [19:12] * shepazu thinks replacing irreverent chatter with irreverent stoicism might also be acceptable
# [19:13] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.207.11) (Ping timeout)
# [19:14] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.207.11)
# [19:16] <hsivonen> Philip: linked to http://philip.html5.org/misc/p-table-ie1.png thanks
# [19:24] * Joins: adele (adele@17.246.17.234)
# [19:24] * Quits: ChrisWilson (cwilso@131.107.0.105) (Ping timeout)
# [19:55] * Joins: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167)
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# [20:39] * Quits: masinter (user@192.150.10.200) (Client exited)
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# [20:54] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
# [20:54] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
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# [22:41] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
# [23:34] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
# [23:56] * Parts: billmason (bmason@69.30.57.188)
# [23:56] * Quits: DanC (connolly@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
# Session Close: Fri Apr 24 00:00:00 2009

The end :)