/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-08-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Aug 21 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  4. # [00:02] <pimpbot> planet: HTML5 canvas with Processing vs. Pure Javascript <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1308703/html5-canvas-with-processing-vs-pure-javascript>
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  15. # [00:46] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7389] Shouldn't "formnoValidate" be "formNoValidate"? <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0242.html> ** [Bug 7062] replace terms "CDATA element" and "RCDATA element" with... something better <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0241.html>
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  36. # [04:07] <mjs> the issue tracker is kind of awful
  37. # [04:07] <mjs> many issues on http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues are showing the wrong status
  38. # [04:07] <pimpbot> Title: Issues - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  39. # [04:07] <mjs> I was going to write a report about open issues but I guess I will wait for it to update
  40. # [04:13] <MikeSmith> mjs: this is for issues that you changed the status on today?
  41. # [04:13] <mjs> yeah
  42. # [04:13] <MikeSmith> yeah, I've noticed that problem too, but I don't know what the lag is
  43. # [04:13] <mjs> I think it just updated itself
  44. # [04:13] <MikeSmith> OK
  45. # [04:13] <MikeSmith> I don't understand myself why it's not real-time
  46. # [04:14] <MikeSmith> I should ask Dom about that
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  48. # [04:17] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7062] replace terms "CDATA element" and "RCDATA element" with... something better <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0243.html>
  49. # [04:18] <mjs> MikeSmith: apparently I just closed about a quarter of our open issues
  50. # [04:19] <mjs> MikeSmith: if we keep this up, we can go to Last Call in 3 weeks! :-)
  51. # [04:19] <MikeSmith> heh
  52. # [04:19] <MikeSmith> 頑張って
  53. # [04:19] <Dashiva> mjs: Maybe if you had started with the hard issues :P
  54. # [04:19] <mjs> Dashiva: Project Manager's First Rule: Always start with the low-hanging fruit.
  55. # [04:20] <Dashiva> Project Manager's Second Rule: Don't predict same progress rate on hard tasks as on easy tasks
  56. # [04:21] <MikeSmith> I think if we had 9 instances of mjs, we could make a baby in 1 month.
  57. # [04:22] <mjs> Dashiva: I'm not going to project an end date until we close at least one "difficult" issue
  58. # [04:22] <Dashiva> MikeSmith: But it would get stuck in Last Call for 8 months afterwards
  59. # [04:23] <MikeSmith> heh
  60. # [04:23] <MikeSmith> the ICU
  61. # [04:30] <MikeSmith> btw, I put the following together with some help from Hixie and mostly based on some stuff that DanC wrote a while back -
  62. # [04:30] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/status.html
  63. # [04:30] <pimpbot> Title: oops (at dev.w3.org)
  64. # [04:30] <MikeSmith> it's just an alternative front-end to Hixie's status-annotation system
  65. # [04:31] <MikeSmith> but just shows the TOC view with the status indicators, instead of the whole spec
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  85. # [09:11] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Could you add the section id to http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/status.html?
  86. # [09:11] <pimpbot> Title: oops (at dev.w3.org)
  87. # [09:11] <jgraham> Like 1
  88. # [09:12] <jgraham> Introduction (introduction)
  89. # [09:12] <jgraham> For ease of doing the linking-issues-to-sections thing
  90. # [09:14] * jgraham seems to have a proper internet connection again and so will likely inish up doing that today
  91. # [09:14] <jgraham> *finish
  92. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> jgraham: you mean, add the id value as rendered text in the page?
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  94. # [09:20] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Yeah. It just makes things a bit easier than doing the whole hover-look-at-status-bar-realise-you-are-using-a-browser-with-no-status-bar-try-again dance
  95. # [09:20] <jgraham> Or opening your dom viewer of choice
  96. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> OK
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  99. # [09:48] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7393] New: парпрп <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0247.html> ** [Bug 7392] New: Please use some term other than "URL" for Web Addresses <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0246.html> ** [Bug 7391] Reference to WEBADDRESS should be replaced with reference to IRIbis <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0245.html>
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  101. # [10:19] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7391] Reference to WEBADDRESS should be replaced with reference to IRIbis <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0250.html> ** [Bug 7393] парпрп <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0249.html> ** [Bug 7392] Please use some term other than "URL" for Web Addresses <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0248.html>
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  105. # [10:49] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 7391] Reference to WEBADDRESS should be replaced with reference to IRIbis" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0251.html>
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  119. # [13:55] <jgraham> http://hoppipolla.co.uk/410/spec-full.html now has issue markers pulled from the tracker. Still no RAISED issues
  120. # [13:55] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 (at hoppipolla.co.uk)
  121. # [14:00] <hsivonen> Hixie: is there a reason why you make document.written meta charset take effect?
  122. # [14:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think I'm going to make meta charset only have an effect if the closing > of the tag came from the network stream
  123. # [14:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: legacy behavior seems to favor some level of ignoring document.written meta charset
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  128. # [14:11] * hsivonen observes that the WHATWG data says #video is at LC but the W3C data says LC is blocked...
  129. # [14:12] <jgraham> hsivonen: This is why I expected people to object to using W3C terms for the section stability markers
  130. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> what W3C data?
  131. # [14:13] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the WG issue tracker
  132. # [14:14] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: assuming that OPEN issues now mean Last Call blocked
  133. # [14:14] <MikeSmith> I see
  134. # [14:14] <hsivonen> it's slightly strange to have ISSUE-7 block LC. Orthogonality of Specs FTW!
  135. # [14:15] <hsivonen> also, video-smil is a bit late now that <video> has shipped in Firefox and Safari
  136. # [14:23] <jgraham> hsivonen: Indeed. My feeling is that the WHATWG status for video is more accurate than the W3C status
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  139. # [15:20] <pimpbot> changes: "mike: removed the cite attribute from <section> and <article>; also, normalized the descriptions of several IDREFS elements and added some details for the <time> element" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0198.html>
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  151. # [16:14] <jgraham> DanC: the proposal Issue-63 isn't anything like spec text which seems to be the gold-standard for a concrete proposal that rubys is applying
  152. # [16:14] <jgraham> s/spec text/camera ready spec text/
  153. # [16:14] <DanC> yeah, well, meanwhile, hixie said he doesn't want spec text
  154. # [16:15] <jgraham> I'm reasonably sure that Hixie doesn't want ISSUE-63 either :)
  155. # [16:15] <jgraham> s/63/61/
  156. # [16:15] <DanC> I hope I get to hear why not
  157. # [16:16] <jgraham> Sure. My point is that if you want to take it further it seems like the most plausible way forward would be to produce a draft that removed the conditions you don't like and submit it to the group
  158. # [16:17] <Lachy> yeah, rubys seems insistent on ignoring Hixie's statements about not wanting camera ready spec text in favour of clear and concise requirements and justifications
  159. # [16:17] <rubys> Lachy: that's a bit of a stretch.
  160. # [16:17] <rubys> If people can convince Ian, that's best.
  161. # [16:18] <rubys> If people can't convince Ian, and won't propose concrete spec text, then their proposal is unlikely to proceed.
  162. # [16:18] <rubys> I believe I've made both statements, and made both consistently.
  163. # [16:19] <rubys> Of course, you can selectively quote me and prove that I'm "absolutely long".
  164. # [16:19] <Lachy> the concrete spec text should be unnecessary. It's not needed at all for convincing Hixie if you have valid arguments
  165. # [16:20] <Lachy> and Hixie has stated many times that he prefers to write the spec in his own words, rather than simply copying and pasting what other people write
  166. # [16:21] <rubys> The concrete spec text would be unnecessary if convincing Hixie were possible. There appear to be a few areas (hard to count at the moment, but Maciej is making great progress on whittling them down) where people have made arguments that Ian simply marks as WONTFIX.
  167. # [16:21] <Lachy> so how will the concrete spec text help at all?
  168. # [16:21] <jgraham> Lachy: The case where it seems necessary is the unfortunate case where you can;t convince Hixie but can achieve consensus with the rest of the group
  169. # [16:21] <Lachy> I'm not convinced that case exists
  170. # [16:22] <jgraham> Well the case clearly exists in theory
  171. # [16:22] <Lachy> we've yet to reach consensus on any issue that Hixie isn't convinced about using valid arguments and data
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  173. # [16:23] <jgraham> s/that Hixie.*// more or less
  174. # [16:23] <rubys> Lachy: and I personally believe that is a far superior outcome than "Hixie says no".
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  176. # [16:25] <Lachy> rubys, what exactly do you consider to be a superior outcome?
  177. # [16:29] <rubys> When people feel that concrete, sound and convincing arguments have failed, I feel that giving them an opportunity by creating a concrete proposal and for that proposal to not succeed, either because they found it to be unworkable themselves or were unable to attract consensus is far better than "Hixie says no".
  178. # [16:30] * rubys is now known as absolutelylong
  179. # [16:31] <Lachy> rubys, what does absolutelylong mean?
  180. # [16:31] <absolutelylong> That's what Maciej called me when he selectively quoted me on a related topic.
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  182. # [16:33] <absolutelylong> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/1015.html
  183. # [16:33] <pimpbot> Title: Re: feedback requested on WAI CG Consensus Resolutions on Text alternatives in HTML 5 document from Maciej Stachowiak on 2009-08-20 (public-html@w3.org from August 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
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  185. # [16:35] <absolutelylong> I pointed out that Ian doesn't document rationale, but demands such. Apparently that is viewed as not asking for rationale, which is not what I said in any way.
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  187. # [16:37] <absolutelylong> On the matter of alt, I specifically believe that both Ian's approach and Steven's approach are "optimistic". But clearly, that's because I'm not capable of understanding. :-)
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  189. # [16:38] <Stevef> absolutleylong: can i point out "its not my approach" its the approach of the WAI CG
  190. # [16:39] <absolutelylong> Stevef: there I go, I'm absolutelylong again! :-)
  191. # [16:39] <absolutelylong> stevef: great work, by the way, on the matrix.
  192. # [16:40] * jgraham wonders what absolutelylong thinks is a non-optimistic approach but thinks that might open a Pandora's box
  193. # [16:40] <jgraham> s/that/that question/
  194. # [16:40] * absolutelylong is now known as rubys
  195. # [16:41] <rubys> My personal opinions most closely match the options of Rob Sayre who unfortunately no longer seems to be actively pursuing them.
  196. # [16:42] <rubys> What I would feel most comfortable with is a HTML5 document that simply documents how each element is intended to be used, and leaves it for the WAI CG and others to make suggestions for best practices.
  197. # [16:43] <rubys> In this case, we are not talking about differences that affect browser behavior.
  198. # [16:43] <rubys> This topic is mostly about opinions on how best to influence author behavior.
  199. # [16:46] <jgraham> I'm not really sure how you seperate out "how it is intended to be used" from "best practices"
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  201. # [16:47] <gsnedders|work> What do validators check against? What validators do is far more important than what any spec says.
  202. # [16:47] <rubys> jgraham: "alt, if present, means X." Where the period is a fullstop.
  203. # [16:49] <rubys> gsnedders|work: I hope that validators are created that include best practices published by groups outside of the HTML WG. In fact, I intend to contribute to such.
  204. # [16:49] <jgraham> Oh well that's "what it means" not "how it is intended to be used"
  205. # [16:49] <rubys> jgraham: fair enough.
  206. # [16:50] <gsnedders|work> rubys: Bear in mind that validators that checked more than the bare SGML schema for HTML 4.01 were treated by many authors as illegitimate, and if they gave a different result to the W3C Validator, they were wrong.
  207. # [16:50] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 7391] Reference to WEBADDRESS should be replaced with reference to IRIbis <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0253.html> ** [Bug 7392] Please use some term other than "URL" for Web Addresses <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0252.html>
  208. # [16:53] <Lachy> gsnedders|work, in many cases, the alternative validators were technically wrong, but, I think most often only in ways that violated the widely unsupported syntactic features from SGML
  209. # [16:54] <jgraham> Lachy: So in essence they were more useful than the W3C validator?
  210. # [16:54] <gsnedders|work> Lachy: My point is they were enforcing things beyond what the spec required, so in that way they were wrong. If the spec was to give no conformance requirements, then all validators would be technically wrong.
  211. # [16:56] <Lachy> jgraham, in some ways, yes, though I always preferred the W3C validator. It's been a while since I've used the older alternatives, so I can't recall the details about why
  212. # [17:01] * hsivonen wonders why bug 7392 is non-editiorial
  213. # [17:01] <pimpbot> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7392 mjs@apple.com, P2, RESOLVED WONTFIX, Please use some term other than "URL" for Web Addresses
  214. # [17:05] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: it's non-editorial because it's substantive
  215. # [17:08] <rubys> gsndedders|work: that can be addressed by having a W3C validator that includes (at least as an option) best practices from all W3C groups.
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  220. # [17:50] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 6774] <mark> element: restrict insertion by other servers <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Aug/0254.html>
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  225. # [18:21] <pimpbot> changes: "mike: removed <bb>" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2009Aug/0200.html>
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  234. # [20:01] <mjs> MikeSmith: I wouldn't call 7392 "non-editorial"
  235. # [20:01] <mjs> MikeSmith: it seems like a change of terminology with no material effect is what "editorial" means
  236. # [20:01] <mjs> (the one about referencing IRIbis is not)
  237. # [20:01] <MikeSmith> mjs: is it something that people disagree about?
  238. # [20:03] <mjs> MikeSmith: you mean, is making the change or not something people disagree about? yes
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  243. # [20:06] <MikeSmith> mjs: so as a way of pre-empting any further quibbling about it, maybe I'll change NE to to "OTD"
  244. # [20:06] <MikeSmith> = "open to disagreement"
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  247. # [20:10] <Dashiva> MikeSmith: Any bug that isn't immediately closed as fixed probably counts as OTD :)
  248. # [20:11] <rubys> I don't care how it is flagged, but this will likely end up in TBL's lap, and so flagging it as editorial is not appropriate.
  249. # [20:11] <mjs> I didn't flag it either way myself...
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  251. # [20:13] <MikeSmith> the only purpose of that NE flag is to cause a notification to be sent to the list
  252. # [20:14] <MikeSmith> because we don't want a notification go out to 300+ people every time some jackass decides to use the comment-submission UI to submit a comment in Cyrillic
  253. # [20:14] <rubys> If "NE" effectively means "more than simply editorial", I'm entirely fine with that.
  254. # [20:15] <rubys> NJE? :-)
  255. # [20:15] <mjs> yeah that's fine with me to have a keyword for that purpose
  256. # [20:15] <MikeSmith> OK, so from here on, "NE" officially means "Completely opaque"
  257. # [20:15] <mjs> heh
  258. # [20:17] <Dashiva> Can't you just use what you said? "Possibly interesting to the list"
  259. # [20:17] <mjs> "Worth discussing"
  260. # [20:18] <rubys> Blue. The bikeshed absolutely must be blue.
  261. # [20:20] <MikeSmith> I would like to blow up the bikeshed
  262. # [20:21] <Dashiva> Then we can discuss the coloring of each fragment separately
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  279. # [21:07] <pimpbot> planet: Willful Violation of the Spec <http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/08/21/Willful-Violation-of-the-Spec>
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The end :)