/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-11-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Nov 06 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:00] * ht thanks the WG, has another WG to go to, bye
  4. # [00:00] <DanC> Topic: Embedding data in HTML Documents
  5. # [00:00] <timbl> It seems to me that Larry is asking for the MIME-type registration information to include the history of the previous specs. I think that also the spec says that it reckons to be back-compatibl anyway to a large extent. It seems reasonable to put the history in an appendix.
  6. # [00:00] <Julian> TimBl, the spec does not define things that were valid before, for instance @profile
  7. # [00:01] <DanC> NM paraphrases "General concern with inclusion of data capabilities ..." from http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/11/TAGHTMLTopicsList.html
  8. # [00:01] <pimpbot> Title: Discussion Topics for HTML / TAG working group meeting at TPAC 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  9. # [00:02] * Quits: Travis (48fe78b2@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
  10. # [00:02] <DanC> for reference:
  11. # [00:02] <DanC> issue-53?
  12. # [00:02] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-53
  13. # [00:02] <trackbot> ISSUE-53 -- Need to update media type registrations -- RAISED
  14. # [00:02] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/53
  15. # [00:02] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-53 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  16. # [00:02] <DanC> Lachlan: use case for data-* : it's for data in a document for use by scripts.
  17. # [00:02] <mjs> q+
  18. # [00:02] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  19. # [00:02] <DanC> NM: does it come in the source? or is it synthesized by scripts?
  20. # [00:03] <DanC> LH: both... [complicated?]
  21. # [00:03] <paulc> ack mjs
  22. # [00:03] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  23. # [00:03] <DanC> NM: to what extent do RDFa and data-* overlap?
  24. # [00:03] <Hixie> q+ to talk about [data-value], not cross-site
  25. # [00:03] * Zakim sees Hixie on the speaker queue
  26. # [00:03] <timbl> timbl+ to mention name/clash/space issues from the TP debate
  27. # [00:03] <DanC> MJS: they do overlap somewhat, as well as microformats...
  28. # [00:04] <Hixie> q+ timbl to mention name/clash/space issues from the TP debate
  29. # [00:04] * Zakim sees Hixie, timbl on the speaker queue
  30. # [00:04] <DanC> ... all these mechanisms provide data for consumption by 3rd parties...
  31. # [00:04] * Joins: mduran (cfq@94.194.98.91)
  32. # [00:04] <DanC> [script got the above wrong, evidently...]
  33. # [00:05] <Hixie> q-
  34. # [00:05] * Zakim sees timbl on the speaker queue
  35. # [00:05] <DanC> MJS: the use case for data-* is for private-use data...
  36. # [00:05] <DanC> ... we found that script libraries made up invalid attributes to store data in...
  37. # [00:05] <DanC> ... so data-* is a way to make that usage conforming.
  38. # [00:06] * Quits: ht (ht@128.30.52.169) (Ping timeout)
  39. # [00:06] <DanC> MJS: but could someone use this to publish data? well, sure, but that's not the intent. <p> can be abused too, of course.
  40. # [00:06] <Hixie> ack timbl
  41. # [00:06] <Zakim> timbl, you wanted to mention name/clash/space issues from the TP debate
  42. # [00:06] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  43. # [00:06] <DanC> TBL: so let's take FBML as an example... with <fb:my-friends>...
  44. # [00:07] <DanC> ... that's extending the language... it's part of the meaning of the page.
  45. # [00:07] <Lachy> q+
  46. # [00:07] * Zakim sees Lachy on the speaker queue
  47. # [00:07] <DanC> ... they're using script libraries to invent new elements [?]
  48. # [00:08] <DanC> ... it's private in the sense that it's not specified by the HTML spec, but from the point of view of someone using the extended language, they're [ETOOFARBEHIND]
  49. # [00:08] <mjs> q+
  50. # [00:08] * Zakim sees Lachy, mjs on the speaker queue
  51. # [00:08] <tantek> q+ to mention practical experience of microformats FAQ re: use of data-* attributes.
  52. # [00:08] * Zakim sees Lachy, mjs, tantek on the speaker queue
  53. # [00:08] <mjs> q-
  54. # [00:08] * Zakim sees Lachy, tantek on the speaker queue
  55. # [00:08] <annevk> ack Lachy
  56. # [00:08] * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
  57. # [00:08] <DanC> Hixie: that would be abuse of data-*; other mechanisms serve that use case significantly better
  58. # [00:09] * DanC suffers muddy acoustics; can't hear lachlan well at all
  59. # [00:09] * annevk unicorns!
  60. # [00:09] <MikeSmith> it seems likely that a not-insignificant number of authors will in fact misuse the data-* attributes; at least it seems more likely that authors will misuse data-* attributes than that they will restyle a <p> element to become a list item [Maciej's example]
  61. # [00:09] <paulc> ack tantek
  62. # [00:09] <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to mention practical experience of microformats FAQ re: use of data-* attributes.
  63. # [00:09] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  64. # [00:09] * sylvaing signs up for Unicorn WG
  65. # [00:09] <DanC> Lachy, I missed what you said; help?
  66. # [00:10] <noahm> If we move on from this question, I think it's useful to agree on whether we have a direction that's likely to lead to consensus. Right now, I
  67. # [00:10] <noahm> I'm afraid I'm not hearing it.
  68. # [00:10] <DanC> tantek: after a small amount of initial confusion, the microformats community has learned not to misuse data-*
  69. # [00:10] <noahm> I hear Hixie et. al. saying "not to be used this way". Tim saying it will.
  70. # [00:10] <Lachy> I said the difference between data-* and microdata/RDFa/microformats is that the latter provides shared vocabularies with shared semantics, whereas data-* attributes are completely private with no shared semantics
  71. # [00:11] <DanC> tx
  72. # [00:11] <DanC> Paul: so I hear "what are the plans for factoring microdata?"
  73. # [00:12] <DanC> MJS: we have a tracker issue and a change proposal to take it out; next step is a change proposal to keep it in
  74. # [00:12] * karl is pretty sure it will be. If there is a possibility, people usually do it. (cf. table for layout) plus all the abuse we haven't even thought about
  75. # [00:12] <DanC> issue-76?
  76. # [00:12] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-76
  77. # [00:12] <trackbot> ISSUE-76 -- Concerns about Microdata section and inclusion/exclusion of RDFa -- OPEN
  78. # [00:12] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/76
  79. # [00:12] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-76 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
  80. # [00:13] <DanC> NM: to TAG members, would it suffice to split out the microdata spec?
  81. # [00:13] <DanC> PC: could you give some argument/rationale for splitting it out?
  82. # [00:13] <DanC> TimBL: modularity...
  83. # [00:13] <DanC> ... it'll be easier for people to read the smaller bits
  84. # [00:13] <Julian> q+
  85. # [00:13] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  86. # [00:14] <Hixie> ack
  87. # [00:14] <Hixie> ack Julian
  88. # [00:14] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  89. # [00:14] <DanC> Julian: a split out spec could still be normatively referenced...
  90. # [00:14] <DanC> MJS: noone is advocating that
  91. # [00:14] <masinter> q+
  92. # [00:14] * Zakim sees masinter on the speaker queue
  93. # [00:14] <masinter>
  94. # [00:14] <masinter> q-
  95. # [00:14] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  96. # [00:15] <masinter> q+
  97. # [00:15] * Zakim sees masinter on the speaker queue
  98. # [00:16] <masinter> q-
  99. # [00:16] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  100. # [00:16] <paulc> moving on to the URI/IRI/WebAddr item
  101. # [00:16] <DanC> NM: how about data-*... does the same argument re factoring out apply?
  102. # [00:16] <DanC> [lack of response...]
  103. # [00:16] <DanC> DanC: I don't think so
  104. # [00:17] <DanC> Topic: URI/IRI/WebAddr
  105. # [00:17] <DanC> NM: I note LMM's change proposal, acknowledged in the HTML WG bug tracker
  106. # [00:18] <DanC> LMM: the technical issue I'm persuing is: does what browsers use for URLs match what other applications use? ...
  107. # [00:18] <DanC> ... if they don't match, [something about normative references; help?]
  108. # [00:19] <DanC> PC: is the intent in HTML 5 that they match?
  109. # [00:19] <DanC> Hixie: [carefully worded answer; help?] they're designed to be a superset. [?]
  110. # [00:20] <DanC> PC: [some question that prompted LMM to answer...]
  111. # [00:20] <DanC> LMM: I think I answered that in my msg [www-tag/2009Nov/0005] ...
  112. # [00:20] <DanC> ... we're trying to set up some confidence about the future; if we charter an IETF WG to meet some requirements, [ETOOFAST]
  113. # [00:21] <MikeSmith> q+ to suggest that we meet at least until 3:45, given that a number of use showed up about 15 minutes late
  114. # [00:21] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  115. # [00:21] <DanC> ... I'd like to treat those [design differences between HTML 5 and IRIBIS?] as bugs...
  116. # [00:21] <DanC> LMM: you can't deadlock one behind the other [?]
  117. # [00:22] * Quits: timbl (timbl@72.254.87.20) (Quit: timbl)
  118. # [00:22] <MikeSmith> TimBL had to leave
  119. # [00:22] <Hixie> IH: HTML5's definition of URL was intended to be a superset of IRI, and its definition of "valud URL" was intended to be exactly equivalent to the definition of IRI where their processing would be equivalent
  120. # [00:23] <DanC> "To what extent is Web Address being moved into IRI-bis?"
  121. # [00:23] <DanC> PC: it's in progress
  122. # [00:23] <DanC> "is the timeline for IRI work consistent with the timeline for HTML 5?"
  123. # [00:24] * Quits: eric_carlson (eric_carls@72.254.11.203) (Quit: eric_carlson)
  124. # [00:24] <DanC> MJS: eventually, yes, IRIBIS has to be done before HTML5 goes to REC...
  125. # [00:25] <DanC> ... but we can make a lot of orthogonal progress on HTML 5 before then.
  126. # [00:25] <DanC> "Are there pieces that need to stay in HTML 5?"
  127. # [00:25] <DanC> [what I heard was: we hope not.]
  128. # [00:25] * Quits: shiki (sokasaka@216.239.44.65) (Quit: shiki)
  129. # [00:25] <DanC> PC: we'll find out
  130. # [00:26] <DanC> IH: yes, we'll figure out the boundary at some time.
  131. # [00:26] * Quits: soonho (soonho@72.254.87.179) (Quit: soonho)
  132. # [00:26] * Quits: weinig (weinig@72.254.105.115) (Quit: weinig)
  133. # [00:26] <DanC> LMM: I'm happy for the HTML WG issue to be closed and the remainder to be handled as bugs
  134. # [00:26] * Quits: Eliot_Graff (EGraff@72.254.89.93) (Quit: A day without sunshine is like .... night)
  135. # [00:26] * Joins: timbl (timbl@72.254.87.20)
  136. # [00:26] * DanC timecheck
  137. # [00:27] <mjs> scribe mjs
  138. # [00:27] <mjs> Scribe: mjs
  139. # [00:27] <Hixie> ScribeNick: mjs
  140. # [00:28] <mjs> Topic: Language Reference / Authoring Spec
  141. # [00:28] <DanC> q+ to swap Lachlan's document back in
  142. # [00:28] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, DanC on the speaker queue
  143. # [00:28] <MikeSmith> q-
  144. # [00:28] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
  145. # [00:28] <mjs> NM: I think having a good spec to a language is important
  146. # [00:28] <mjs> NM: the authoring spec is better than my worst fears
  147. # [00:29] <mjs> NM: not sure this is the best we could do, compared to something handwritten
  148. # [00:29] <mjs> NM: will this be a major deliverable with close review?
  149. # [00:29] * DanC would like tantek to speak to this... i.e. what the design community wants/needs/likes
  150. # [00:29] <mjs> IH: first - there are two other documents we have being developed
  151. # [00:30] <mjs> IH: Lachlan's informative author's reference
  152. # [00:30] * DanC noah, drop those pointers in pls?
  153. # [00:30] <MikeSmith> my draft is at http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/
  154. # [00:30] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5: The Markup Language (at dev.w3.org)
  155. # [00:30] <mjs> IH: Mike's markup spec draft
  156. # [00:30] <noahm> http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/
  157. # [00:30] <noahm> http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/
  158. # [00:30] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 Reference (at dev.w3.org)
  159. # [00:30] <noahm> Hixie's authoring version: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/?style=author
  160. # [00:30] <pimpbot> Title: HTML5 (at www.whatwg.org)
  161. # [00:30] <mjs> IH: as far as my document - I haven't done as much quality assurance on the authoring annotations
  162. # [00:30] <tantek> DanC - the authoring specs have been very useful to those not familiar with reading typical W3C spec-ese.
  163. # [00:31] <tantek> (in my experience in talking/working with web designers)
  164. # [00:31] <mjs> IH: there has been some (Philip and I have both spotted errors)
  165. # [00:31] <DanC> tantek, have you looked at the authoring view that hixie has come up with?
  166. # [00:31] <mjs> NM: what I'm hearing is that you are treating this deliverable seriously, whether or not it meets my taste
  167. # [00:31] <DanC> do you know if others in the design community like it?
  168. # [00:32] <tantek> BTW re: data-* attributes and microformats community understanding - here is the URL we send folks that seems to convince them to avoid data-* for data interchange: http://microformats.org/wiki/html5#data_attributes
  169. # [00:32] <pimpbot> Title: html5 · Microformats Wiki (at microformats.org)
  170. # [00:32] <mjs> IH: one of the things I'm not sure of is who the target audience is
  171. # [00:32] <tantek> Zakim, status
  172. # [00:32] <Zakim> I don't understand 'status', tantek
  173. # [00:32] <mjs> IH: I don't know of people who would are at high enough level to understand the spec, but aren't familiar with browsers
  174. # [00:32] * Joins: BryanSullivan (Bryan@135.214.40.68)
  175. # [00:32] <tantek> ack Hixie
  176. # [00:32] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
  177. # [00:32] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@72.254.82.212) (Quit: dsinger)
  178. # [00:33] <MikeSmith> a static view of the author view of the spec is at http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/
  179. # [00:33] <pimpbot> Title: HTML5 (at dev.w3.org)
  180. # [00:33] <mjs> NM: one thing I noticed is many UA requirements are imperative, are there a lot of cases where that remains in the author view, or is it more declarative?
  181. # [00:33] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.11) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  182. # [00:33] * Quits: kohei (kohei@72.254.92.154) (Quit: Computer goes to sleep!)
  183. # [00:33] <DanC> I haven't updated that for a while, MikeSmith ; have you?
  184. # [00:33] <mjs> IH: fixed some cases of that, continuing to improve it
  185. # [00:33] <mjs> NM: thanks for the status report. let's open this up
  186. # [00:33] <MikeSmith> DanC: it's automatically updated each time Hixie commits a change
  187. # [00:34] <mjs> HT: Henry was concerned that you couldn't create a good authoring spec from the current spec without adding more material
  188. # [00:34] <DanC> ok; thanks, Mike
  189. # [00:34] <mjs> s/HT/PC/
  190. # [00:34] * Joins: adactio (adactio@91.135.3.217)
  191. # [00:34] <mjs> PC: It sounds like you *have* added some material in the process, and are willing to add more
  192. # [00:34] <MikeSmith> s/DanC:/DanC,
  193. # [00:35] * Quits: Arron (arronei@72.254.63.254) (Ping timeout)
  194. # [00:35] <mjs> PC: it sounds like we should feed that back to Henry and ask him to state what's missing
  195. # [00:35] * Joins: kohei (kohei@72.254.92.154)
  196. # [00:36] * Quits: satoshi (satoshi_fu@72.254.92.146) (Ping timeout)
  197. # [00:36] <Hixie> q+ duplicate normative; reason for two types of content
  198. # [00:36] * Zakim Hixie, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  199. # [00:36] <Hixie> q+ to say duplicate normative; reason for two types of content
  200. # [00:36] * Zakim sees DanC, Hixie on the speaker queue
  201. # [00:36] <mjs> DC: are you closer to done on the authoring guide?
  202. # [00:36] <Hixie> ack DanC
  203. # [00:36] <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to swap Lachlan's document back in
  204. # [00:36] * Zakim sees Hixie on the speaker queue
  205. # [00:36] <mjs> LH: there's lots of stuff, but much more is needed
  206. # [00:36] * Joins: weinig (weinig@72.254.105.115)
  207. # [00:36] <BryanSullivan> q+
  208. # [00:36] * Zakim sees Hixie, BryanSullivan on the speaker queue
  209. # [00:36] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@83.252.226.0) (Quit: gsnedders)
  210. # [00:37] <mjs> PC: I've had many people approach me saying they could use a spec like this for software that generates HTML, and is not a browser
  211. # [00:37] * Joins: eric_carlson (eric_carls@72.254.11.203)
  212. # [00:37] * Quits: kohei (kohei@72.254.92.154) (Quit: Computer goes to sleep!)
  213. # [00:37] <mjs> NM: maybe more BNF
  214. # [00:37] <mjs> IH: there is more BNF. I think this audience is somewhat different than what I have been targeting
  215. # [00:38] * DanC watches out for flying pigs, upon hearing about BNF in the HTML 5 spec. ;-)
  216. # [00:38] <annevk> should we change the media types slot now it has already been dealt with here?
  217. # [00:38] <masinter> q+ about writing API calls vs. implementing API calls
  218. # [00:38] * Zakim masinter, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  219. # [00:38] <mjs> IH: on second thought, maybe emitting HTML does
  220. # [00:38] * silvia agrees with annevk
  221. # [00:38] <masinter> q+ to ask about about writing API calls vs. implementing API calls
  222. # [00:38] * Zakim sees Hixie, BryanSullivan, masinter on the speaker queue
  223. # [00:38] <Hixie> ack Hixie
  224. # [00:38] <Zakim> Hixie, you wanted to say duplicate normative; reason for two types of content
  225. # [00:38] <mjs> IH: but to validate you need parts of both
  226. # [00:38] * Zakim sees BryanSullivan, masinter on the speaker queue
  227. # [00:38] <paulc> ack hixie
  228. # [00:38] * Zakim sees BryanSullivan, masinter on the speaker queue
  229. # [00:38] <mjs> annevk, perhaps we should - not sure there is more to discuss about it
  230. # [00:38] <MikeSmith> q+ to respond
  231. # [00:38] * Zakim sees BryanSullivan, masinter, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  232. # [00:39] * Quits: tross (48fe0cc6@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC)
  233. # [00:39] * Quits: adactio (adactio@91.135.3.217) (Client exited)
  234. # [00:39] <mjs> IH: I don't think that we as a working group should publish two documents that both claim to be normative for the same thing
  235. # [00:39] <paulc> ack bryan
  236. # [00:39] * Zakim sees masinter, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  237. # [00:39] <DanC> (I disagree with Hixie on the "multiple normative documents" issue. I've done it successfully in OWL, SPARQL, and GRDDL)
  238. # [00:39] <mjs> BS: we view it very favorably, our product plans for HTML5 will benefit
  239. # [00:40] <BryanSullivan> q-
  240. # [00:40] * Zakim sees masinter, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  241. # [00:40] <DanC> (but those were quite orthogonal; i.e. spec and test-suite-document)
  242. # [00:40] <mjs> LM: one thing that's important for creators of documents that use scripting is the programmer view of the API as opposed to the implementor view
  243. # [00:40] <Hixie> BryanSullivan: radio buttons are at the top right of http://whatwg.org/html5
  244. # [00:41] <pimpbot> Title: HTML5 (at whatwg.org)
  245. # [00:41] <mjs> LM: example: image width
  246. # [00:41] * Joins: adactio (adactio@91.135.3.217)
  247. # [00:41] <DanC> what was the "it" that Bryan was referring to?
  248. # [00:41] <mjs> LM: explained implementation details, was not so clear for someone trying to use the API rather than implement it
  249. # [00:42] <annevk> silvia, maybe you should make it another video slot :)
  250. # [00:42] * Quits: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  251. # [00:42] <mjs> DanC, he didn't exactly specify but I assume BryanSullivan was referring to the authoring-focused specs
  252. # [00:42] <BryanSullivan> Correct
  253. # [00:42] <DanC> hm
  254. # [00:42] * Quits: eric_carlson (eric_carls@72.254.11.203) (Quit: eric_carlson)
  255. # [00:42] <BryanSullivan> But the guidance is appreciated
  256. # [00:43] <DanC> the TAG isn't of one mind on this.
  257. # [00:43] <DanC> non-normative is fine for me.
  258. # [00:43] <annevk> (having said that, it seems like I'll attend the bit on caching)
  259. # [00:43] <mjs> MS: I want to propose an action for the TAG: would it be acceptable to produce a language reference as a non-normative document?
  260. # [00:43] * Quits: azunix (azunix@88.207.233.32) (Quit: Leaving)
  261. # [00:44] <mjs> NM: to ask for clarification, which document do you mean?
  262. # [00:44] * annevk wishes video would not overlap with TC39
  263. # [00:44] <mjs> MS: I mean if there's a document that is not a view in the spec, just a definition of a conforming document
  264. # [00:44] <mjs> NM: I will put any proposal before the TAG that you can describe
  265. # [00:45] <DanC> I think of Mike's document as "a schema-based description of HTML 5" and I'd be happy to see it published non-normatively.
  266. # [00:45] * Quits: prolix (4615bbaa@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC 0.5.9 (2006/06/06))
  267. # [00:45] <mjs> MS: specifically I mean my H:TML document, aimed at producers only
  268. # [00:46] <mjs> NM: for me personally, that's ok, and I'm willing to put that before the TAG
  269. # [00:46] <Kai> If the difference between these two documents is so subtle, it probably is not such a good idea. If it can be made clear what the diff is, then yes.
  270. # [00:47] <mjs> SR: would be useful to have the input because then we can decouple and execute
  271. # [00:47] <hober> I'm all for MikeSmith's document being published non-normatively. Mike, have you changed your mind since http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20081118#l-207 ?
  272. # [00:47] <pimpbot> Title: IRC logs: w3c / #html-wg / 20081118 (at krijnhoetmer.nl)
  273. # [00:48] <MikeSmith> hober: I change my mind all the time
  274. # [00:48] <hober> :)
  275. # [00:48] <MikeSmith> s/hober: /hober,
  276. # [00:48] <mjs> adjourned
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  301. # [01:10] <MikeSmith> Topic: Caching
  302. # [01:10] <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith
  303. # [01:10] * Joins: tantek (tantek@72.254.84.166)
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  305. # [01:11] <MikeSmith> URL for Nikunj's slides?
  306. # [01:12] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/param/master/Invisible_Pink_Unicorn.svg?color=deeppink
  307. # [01:12] <pimpbot> Title: Invisible Pink Unicorn (at dev.w3.org)
  308. # [01:12] <MikeSmith> Nikunj walks us through his slides
  309. # [01:12] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@72.254.117.7)
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  311. # [01:12] <BryanSullivan> q+
  312. # [01:12] * Zakim sees masinter, MikeSmith, BryanSullivan on the speaker queue
  313. # [01:12] <MikeSmith> slide - Desired Offline Data Features
  314. # [01:12] <MikeSmith> q?
  315. # [01:12] * Zakim sees masinter, MikeSmith, BryanSullivan on the speaker queue
  316. # [01:12] <MikeSmith> ack masinter
  317. # [01:12] <Zakim> masinter, you wanted to ask about about writing API calls vs. implementing API calls
  318. # [01:12] <MikeSmith> ask MikeSmith
  319. # [01:12] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, BryanSullivan on the speaker queue
  320. # [01:13] <MikeSmith> BryanSullivan: is the datacache on the device?
  321. # [01:13] <MikeSmith> Nikunj: yes
  322. # [01:13] <BryanSullivan> q-
  323. # [01:13] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  324. # [01:13] <MikeSmith> tlr: could just be the HTTP cache on the UA?
  325. # [01:13] <Julian> s/tlr/jr/
  326. # [01:13] <BryanSullivan> q+
  327. # [01:14] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, BryanSullivan on the speaker queue
  328. # [01:14] <MikeSmith> Nikunj: the key part is that the cache can be controlled programatically
  329. # [01:14] <MikeSmith> ack MikeSmith
  330. # [01:14] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to respond
  331. # [01:14] * Zakim sees BryanSullivan on the speaker queue
  332. # [01:14] <MikeSmith> ack BryanSullivan
  333. # [01:14] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  334. # [01:14] <BryanSullivan> q-
  335. # [01:14] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  336. # [01:14] <MikeSmith> BryanSullivan: so you want to make it transparent as possible?
  337. # [01:14] * tantek informed #html-wg2 about cancellation of separate HTML Media Type session, and also updated the Google docs spreadsheet of the session schedule.
  338. # [01:14] <MikeSmith> Nikunj: Yes, to make it seamless
  339. # [01:15] <MikeSmith> Lachy: how's that different from normal HTTP cache or offline-apps ApplicationCache mechanism?
  340. # [01:15] <Lachy> MikeSmith, huh?
  341. # [01:16] <Lachy> MikeSmith, I didn't say that
  342. # [01:16] * MikeSmith Lachy - um, I thought I heard your voice.. I guess it was somebody else
  343. # [01:16] <MikeSmith> Lachy: feel free to fix it
  344. # [01:16] <Lachy> I don't know who said it
  345. # [01:16] * Quits: Kai (chatzilla@72.254.82.195) (Client exited)
  346. # [01:16] <MikeSmith> s/Lachy: /???: /
  347. # [01:16] <Lachy> s/Lachy: how/??: how/
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  350. # [01:17] <MikeSmith> NM: [discusses use case of off-line photo album]
  351. # [01:17] * Quits: jun (jun@72.254.101.63) (Client exited)
  352. # [01:17] <MikeSmith> NM: efficiency of updates is a concern
  353. # [01:18] * Joins: jun (jun@72.254.101.63)
  354. # [01:18] <MikeSmith> NM: [explains HTML5 ApplicationCache]
  355. # [01:18] <MikeSmith> q?
  356. # [01:18] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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  358. # [01:18] <MikeSmith> BryanSullivan: is the datacache going to act like a local server?
  359. # [01:19] <MikeSmith> ... or not really
  360. # [01:19] * Quits: JF (chatzilla@72.254.61.214) (Ping timeout)
  361. # [01:19] <MikeSmith> BryanSullivan: so you want controlled cache lifetime
  362. # [01:19] <MikeSmith> ... application control
  363. # [01:20] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 8210] New: Add drawFocusRing(x,y,w,h,element) which, if element is focused, draws a system focus ring at x,y,w,h. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0055.html>
  364. # [01:20] <MikeSmith> cardona507: is there a spec'ed limit on the size of an HTML5 application cache?
  365. # [01:21] <MikeSmith> Hixie: no, [because the practical limit is device-dependent]
  366. # [01:21] * Quits: cyns (48fe7085@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
  367. # [01:21] <MikeSmith> NM: [discusses off-line attachments use case]
  368. # [01:22] * Quits: aroben (aroben@71.58.77.15) (Connection reset by peer)
  369. # [01:22] <MikeSmith> NM: [discusses use case of offline data format conversion]
  370. # [01:23] * Joins: eric_carlson (eric_carls@72.254.11.203)
  371. # [01:25] <MikeSmith> NM: [use case of blog client]
  372. # [01:25] <tantek> regarding the Off-line data format conversaion use case of converting to iCal - I know a few things about that ;)
  373. # [01:26] <tantek> e.g. http://h2vx.com/ics/ will convert pages with hCalendar to iCal format so that the events can be added to a native calendar application.
  374. # [01:26] <pimpbot> Title: H2VX: hCalendar to iCalendar (at h2vx.com)
  375. # [01:26] <BryanSullivan> q+
  376. # [01:26] * Zakim sees BryanSullivan on the speaker queue
  377. # [01:26] <tantek> also, in Firefox, it has already parsed the hCalendars on the page, so you could have a javascript: hyperlink extract that information from the DOM and redirect to a data: URL of type text/calendar with the iCal data inline.
  378. # [01:27] <Bert> (I think the name of the proposal is wrong. It's not a cache, it's data replication.)
  379. # [01:27] <Julian> it would be a proxy that allows offline work
  380. # [01:27] <tantek> Bert, I think cache is correct because he is implying ephemeral expectation of data availability, rather than reliable replication
  381. # [01:28] <MikeSmith> BryanSullivan: so you are saying, "I am programatically queuing up data that will be sent to the server once you get back online?"
  382. # [01:28] <BryanSullivan> q-
  383. # [01:28] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  384. # [01:29] <MikeSmith> Julian: I have a problem understanding how that will work in practice [for particular cases]
  385. # [01:29] <tantek> q+ to mention that Firefox + Operator solves the offline iCal format generation problem.
  386. # [01:29] * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
  387. # [01:30] <MikeSmith> NM: what URI gets minted is up to the application
  388. # [01:31] <MikeSmith> NM: [use case of co-existence and error recovery]
  389. # [01:31] <MikeSmith> NM: you want the user to be alerted _before_ the sync cycle is complete
  390. # [01:32] * Quits: eric_carlson (eric_carls@72.254.11.203) (Quit: eric_carlson)
  391. # [01:33] <MikeSmith> NM: reporting errors earlier reduces the problems with recovery
  392. # [01:34] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169)
  393. # [01:35] <MikeSmith> NM: [discussing offline authorization use case]
  394. # [01:36] <MikeSmith> NM: DataCache API spec is in FPWD in WebApps WG
  395. # [01:37] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DataCache/
  396. # [01:37] <pimpbot> Title: DataCache API (at dev.w3.org)
  397. # [01:37] <Hixie> q+
  398. # [01:37] * Zakim sees tantek, Hixie on the speaker queue
  399. # [01:37] <MikeSmith> ack tantek
  400. # [01:37] <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to mention that Firefox + Operator solves the offline iCal format generation problem.
  401. # [01:37] * Zakim sees Hixie on the speaker queue
  402. # [01:38] <MikeSmith> tantek: in practice this is one in a couple different ways
  403. # [01:38] <MikeSmith> ... client-side plugin is one -- like Firefox Operator extension
  404. # [01:38] <MikeSmith> ... other way is to do is on the server side
  405. # [01:40] <MikeSmith> tantek: so how is this proposal better than existing mechanisms [that already address these use cases]
  406. # [01:43] * Quits: gavin (gavin@99.226.207.11) (Ping timeout)
  407. # [01:43] <MikeSmith> NM: effectively you can think of it as a portable local server that can respond to network requests
  408. # [01:43] <MikeSmith> tantek: so it's like Opera Unite?
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  411. # [01:45] <MikeSmith> annevk: this is in the context of the Web application, whereas Opera Unite is a user-controlled mechanism
  412. # [01:47] <MikeSmith> NM: it is possible to bypass the datacache, by the user.. and possible to bypass by XHR
  413. # [01:47] <Hixie> ack Hixie
  414. # [01:47] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  415. # [01:47] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I agree with all the use cases
  416. # [01:48] <MikeSmith> ... and Google has many more use cases [for client-side caching]
  417. # [01:48] * cardona507 asked if there was a similar network and fallback mechanism similar to appcache - he responded not currently
  418. # [01:48] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I think it fits pretty well with ApplicationCache, but I think it's too early to consider adding this [DataCache] to the platform
  419. # [01:50] <MikeSmith> i/it is possible/cardona507: [asked if there was a similar network and fallback mechanism similar to appcache: NM responded, Not currently]
  420. # [01:50] <MikeSmith> mjs: I agree with Hixie that we should be careful about how to stage the addition of new features
  421. # [01:50] <MikeSmith> ... AppCache has been shipping for more than a year
  422. # [01:50] <MikeSmith> ... people are building businesses around it
  423. # [01:51] <MikeSmith> ... and building serious stuff on top of it
  424. # [01:51] <MikeSmith> mjs: I would like to see two solid implementations of AppCache that we can demonstrate are interoperable
  425. # [01:52] <MikeSmith> ... then look at the pain points that developers who are using AppCache have run into [and consider adding additional features to address those]
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  427. # [01:53] <MikeSmith> annevk: [discusses a case of how to handle a page with an image that gets removed from the cache]
  428. # [01:53] * Quits: shiki (sokasaka@72.254.87.192) (Quit: shiki)
  429. # [01:53] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah, it's not yet bug-free.. which is why I worry about [putting new features into it now]
  430. # [01:54] <MikeSmith> Hixie: [points out that existence of a draft spec can sometimes cause features to get implemented prematurely]
  431. # [01:55] <MikeSmith> mjs: some features are of the kind where implementing the first 80% is pretty straightforward to implement, but last 20% is much more problematic
  432. # [01:56] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  433. # [01:56] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  434. # [01:56] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 05 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  435. # [01:58] <MikeSmith> [Nikunj completes his presentation ]
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  453. # [02:20] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 8211] New: HTML 4 defined these as entities &name; where the ";" wasn't part of the entity name, and there wasn't a variation that some names don't have ";". If this is an example of error recovery, valid HTML should require the ;. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0056.html>
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  470. # [02:37] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  471. # [02:37] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  472. # [02:37] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 05 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
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  480. # [02:50] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 8212] New: gggfgfgfgfgfgfg <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0059.html> ** [Bug 8210] Add drawFocusRing(x,y,w,h,element) which, if element is focused, draws a system focus ring at x,y,w,h. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0058.html> ** [Bug 8211] HTML 4 defined these as entities &name; where the ";" wasn't part of the entity name, and there wasn't a variation that s
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  539. # [08:07] <hsivonen> was it pointed out to the TAG that "XML document" in HTML5 means a tree while in XML 1.0 it means a stream?
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  543. # [08:44] <mjs> hsivonen: their complaint was that the term "XML document" was not linked to a definition, so I'm not sure citing different definitions would have helped
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  565. # [12:53] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 8212] gggfgfgfgfgfgfg <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0063.html> ** [Bug 8216] New: editorial: Hide "The name must be one that is terminated by a U+003B SEMICOLON character (;)." and relevant rows in the entity table from the author view. [sp] <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0062.html> ** [Bug 8211] HTML 4 defined these as entities &name; where the ";" wasn't par
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  577. # [16:23] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 8218] New: No, this algorithm cannot be aborted, as there are no synchronous events from which to call load() <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0064.html>
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  587. # [17:28] <myakura> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Apvkq1IRZaQVdEFieXBXVHVkVWZaWlFNVDJpU1I2eGc
  588. # [17:28] <pimpbot> Title: Welcome to Google Docs (at spreadsheets.google.com)
  589. # [17:29] <Hixie> thanks!
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  609. # [17:51] <MikeSmith> does anybody recall who proposed the RDFa and Microdata session?
  610. # [17:51] <MikeSmith> we need somebody to chair the session
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  613. # [18:00] <brutzman> X3D slides (in wiki form) available at http://www.web3d.org/x3d/wiki/index.php/X3D_and_HTML5_Summary
  614. # [18:00] <pimpbot> Title: X3D and HTML5 Summary - Web3D.org (at www.web3d.org)
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  621. # [18:05] <cardona507> good morning everyone
  622. # [18:05] <brutzman> X3D slides (in wiki form) available at http://www.web3d.org/x3d/wiki/index.php/X3D_and_HTML5_Summary
  623. # [18:05] <pimpbot> Title: X3D and HTML5 Summary - Web3D.org (at www.web3d.org)
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  630. # [18:09] <paulc> Handing out Web3D DVDs
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  640. # [18:20] <Kai> +1 to mjs
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  642. # [18:21] <annevk> Kai, we're using #html-wg2 ;-)
  643. # [18:22] * Kai duh
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  645. # [18:24] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 8210] Add drawFocusRing(x,y,w,h,element) which, if element is focused, draws a system focus ring at x,y,w,h. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0065.html>
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  655. # [18:55] <JonathanJ> rrsagent, draft minutes
  656. # [18:55] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html JonathanJ
  657. # [18:55] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 05 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
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  660. # [18:59] <timeless_mbp> ACTION: Kai to document use cases *ON A WEB PAGE*, or you talk to Ivan and request that he document the use cases on a web page
  661. # [18:59] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  662. # [18:59] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Kai
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  669. # [19:01] <PIon> http://www.web3d.org/x3d/ X3D for Developers Page
  670. # [19:01] <pimpbot> Title: X3D for Developers (at www.web3d.org)
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  691. # [19:11] <plh> video talks on #video now
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  694. # [19:14] <Travis> scribe: Travis
  695. # [19:15] <Travis> scribeNick: Travis
  696. # [19:15] <Travis> JN: [presents tentative TC39 agenda]
  697. # [19:16] <Travis> weinig: Brief overview of WebIDL
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  699. # [19:16] <Travis> ... Intent of WebIDL is to give unitified place for DOM + other specs a JavaScript binding.
  700. # [19:17] <Travis> ... want to give it as much clarity as possible
  701. # [19:17] <Travis> ... vs. previous IDLs which were more ambiguous
  702. # [19:17] <Travis> ... now it defines how prototypes interact...
  703. # [19:17] <Travis> ... getter/setters for collections (not same as accessors)
  704. # [19:17] <Travis> ... extra property semantics (e.g., [Replacable])
  705. # [19:18] <Travis> ... would like to take it to Last Call ASAP, but understand there are more concerns.
  706. # [19:18] <Travis> MJS: discussed webidl in the WebApps WG meeting earlier this week.
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  708. # [19:18] <Travis> ... decided to first move existing semantics over to ES5 semantics.
  709. # [19:19] <Travis> AWB: Some TC39 concerns with current draft: ES binding is not what is classicly considered a language binding.
  710. # [19:19] <JonathanJ> rrsagent, draft minutes
  711. # [19:19] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html JonathanJ
  712. # [19:19] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 06 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  713. # [19:19] <Travis> MJS: maps to host object extensibilily
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  715. # [19:20] <Travis> AWB: could be interpreted as colliding with ES language definitions.
  716. # [19:20] <Travis> weinig: Also key idea is to define what behaviors allready exist in browsers
  717. # [19:20] <Travis> MM: TC39 understands that for things that already exist we do need a formalism for these things...
  718. # [19:21] <Travis> ... TC39 has been trying to narrow the gab between host objects and native objects.
  719. # [19:21] <rubys> s/gab/gap/
  720. # [19:21] <Travis> ... HTML5 has used the WebIDL spec to spec things that are in the gab. Many of these things are considered bad practice (name getters)
  721. # [19:22] <Travis> ... Would like to have design contraints to see what should be avoided in future specs.
  722. # [19:22] <Travis> weinig: Discussed earlier this week, and decided to split out some of these "bad practices" into different parts of the spec (or make them clear)
  723. # [19:23] <Travis> AWB: Ideally, useful features that are host object extensions should come back into the native language.
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  725. # [19:24] <Travis> MJS: Goal at a high level is to ultimately converge. By extending ECMAScript on one hand, and carefully control what behaviors are availble in new specs (and what shouldn't be used).
  726. # [19:24] <Travis> ... WebIDL can be the bridge to what is considered appropriate.
  727. # [19:24] <Travis> paulc: Coming back to building an agenda.
  728. # [19:26] <Travis> MJS: Would like to add topic on Binary data and pushing it into core ECMAScript.
  729. # [19:28] * annevk wants his binary data representation :)
  730. # [19:28] <weinig> annevk: you have a proposal?
  731. # [19:28] <annevk> mjs has :)
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  733. # [19:30] <weinig> annevk: oh, you meant, "•annevk wants His binary data proposal"
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  735. # [19:32] <Travis> paulc: Last call on the agenda?
  736. # [19:32] <annevk> weinig, no, I just want to have an object in ECMAScript so I can use it :)
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  738. # [19:33] <annevk> responseData (or whatever) on XHR
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  741. # [19:34] <Travis> Topic: WebIDL (10 min)
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  743. # [19:35] <Travis> paulc: Was some agreement on trying to mark the features that are not well liked...
  744. # [19:35] <Travis> ... Not wanting to use the word "deprecated". Call for discussion.
  745. # [19:36] <Travis> MM: Came up with a four-part classification for "to be avoided"
  746. # [19:36] <Travis> paulc: Four classes for all features or just the ones we don't like.
  747. # [19:37] <Travis> MM: Four categtories to mark all features (like, not like 1-3)
  748. # [19:37] <Travis> MJS: Possible dimensions:is this a legacy feature not recommended
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  751. # [19:38] <Travis> ... May be features in WebIDL that are highly experimental
  752. # [19:38] <Travis> AWB: List is: (5 items)
  753. # [19:38] <Travis> ... "Good parts"
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  755. # [19:39] <Travis> ... "De Jour for legacy support"
  756. # [19:39] <Travis> ... "Deprecated" (like last one, but expectation of future removal)
  757. # [19:40] <Travis> ... "ES5's appendix B (normative (if you implement, it must be implemented as such))
  758. # [19:40] <Travis> ... "Things considered, but rejected and why?"
  759. # [19:40] <Travis> MJS: Think it's worth documenting but not in WebIDL
  760. # [19:41] <Travis> paulc: I call this "out of scope"
  761. # [19:41] <Travis> AWB: I like "rejected" from IDL.
  762. # [19:41] * Dashiva "Frequently Rejected Features"
  763. # [19:41] <Travis> paulc: "rejected" category does not apply to anything in the WebIDL right now?
  764. # [19:42] <Travis> MM: If there is some feature in the current WebIDL, by inspection, we could mark such a feature right now.
  765. # [19:42] * Joins: samth (samth@72.254.60.67)
  766. # [19:42] <Travis> AWB: Also, something in one browser but not all, that thing might be considered in WebIDL, but was rejected even though it had an implementation.
  767. # [19:42] * Joins: shelleyp (shelleyp@69.155.29.71)
  768. # [19:43] <Travis> paulc: Have we applied the 5 category taxonomy to the current WebIDL?
  769. # [19:43] <Travis> AWB: Not yet.
  770. # [19:43] * Quits: paulc (48fe642a@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
  771. # [19:43] <Travis> MJS: Might be more useful to wait to do this until after we've recast the current WebIDL spec into ES5 parlance.
  772. # [19:43] * Joins: drogersuk (David@72.254.63.248)
  773. # [19:43] * Quits: tantek (tantek@72.254.84.209) (Quit: tantek)
  774. # [19:44] <Travis> MJS: I think distinction between "Requred for legacy" and "Deprecated" is not really sufficiently different.
  775. # [19:44] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169) (Quit: tlr)
  776. # [19:44] <Travis> paulc: Agreement on 1) recast in ES5, then 2) apply taxonomy.
  777. # [19:45] * Quits: shelleyp (shelleyp@69.155.29.71) (Quit: shelleyp)
  778. # [19:45] <Travis> MM: Let's not be too ridgid about it.. but we should get both of them done.
  779. # [19:45] * Joins: masinter (user@72.254.89.152)
  780. # [19:46] <Travis> JO: Are there questions about what the semantics should be (currently are using internal hooks to ES specs)
  781. # [19:46] <Travis> ... May want to get agreement in this room?
  782. # [19:46] <Travis> BE: Use the list
  783. # [19:47] <Travis> paulc: [recap main points]
  784. # [19:48] <Travis> MM: Was a recent shift in WebIDL where some things moved from annotations into the main grammar
  785. # [19:48] <Travis> ... Was intended [the grammer] to be the language independent semantics; yet some of those things didn't actually apply to Java...
  786. # [19:49] <Travis> ... Should be careful to make the syntax more language independent
  787. # [19:49] <Travis> MJS: Design Principle: Language independent should be in the core syntax, other things should be extended attributes.
  788. # [19:49] <Travis> ... does this make sense Sam?
  789. # [19:50] <Travis> weinig: It can be fuzzy depending on the language (some have getter/setters, other don't)
  790. # [19:50] <Travis> Topic: Binary data in ECMAScript (15 min)
  791. # [19:51] <Travis> MJS: Goes to the sketchpad
  792. # [19:51] <Travis> ... Design goals were influenced by Web APIs that would like to use binary data.
  793. # [19:51] <Travis> ... In one case the UA has data in an internal buffer
  794. # [19:51] <Travis> ... Would like to achieve cross-thread transfer of data.
  795. # [19:52] <Travis> ... Approaches both point to having an immutable data store (makes it easy to transfer handles safely without copying data)
  796. # [19:52] <Travis> ... Some mutable tricks are possible but not necessarily thread-safe or performant.
  797. # [19:52] <Travis> JO: Examples?
  798. # [19:53] <Travis> MJS: XHR to retrieve binary data.
  799. # [19:53] <Travis> ... Would be nice to have a shared buffer
  800. # [19:53] <Travis> WH: What is needed over and above strings?
  801. # [19:54] <Travis> MJS: 1st point: lack of conceptual clarity
  802. # [19:54] <Travis> ... Binary data is a byte, others are unicode chars
  803. # [19:54] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169)
  804. # [19:54] <Travis> ... Would be nice to not have to raise that question.
  805. # [19:54] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.102.51)
  806. # [19:54] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 8220] New: Remove microdata <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0066.html>
  807. # [19:54] <Travis> ... Also, not having to use a 16 bit sequence to represent octet data.
  808. # [19:55] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169) (Quit: tlr)
  809. # [19:55] <Travis> ... Also ability to get immutable data out.
  810. # [19:55] <Travis> ... to base64 encode could be hard [clarification needed]
  811. # [19:56] <Travis> ... Other design point in my proposal was to get to the bare-minimum set of functionality
  812. # [19:56] <JonathanJ> rrsagent, draft minutes
  813. # [19:56] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html JonathanJ
  814. # [19:56] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 06 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  815. # [19:56] <Travis> ... Didn't want to have a cumbersome interface (e.g., with transcoding, hash computations, base64 encoding)
  816. # [19:57] <Travis> ... Would like to leave that stuff out because we don't know what's needed yet.
  817. # [19:57] * Joins: tH (Rob@82.4.89.172)
  818. # [19:57] <dmcallis> is there a pointer to this oft-mentioned proposal?
  819. # [19:57] <Travis> WH: I see base64 encoding as necessary.
  820. # [19:57] <Travis> AWB: I like what you're suggesting--providing the right primitives and allowing libraries to extend.
  821. # [19:58] <Travis> MJS: Most primitive conversion would be toUTF16 and back.
  822. # [19:58] * Joins: dom (dom@128.30.52.169)
  823. # [19:58] <Travis> MM: First rollout would allow libraries to use, then see what libraries find useful then roll those things back into the standard.
  824. # [19:58] * Joins: tantek (tantek@72.254.84.209)
  825. # [19:59] <Travis> WH: Must be careful--providing the wrong set of primitives could lead to bad performance problems...
  826. # [19:59] <Travis> MJS: Given three design proposals, what problems are left (that I see)?
  827. # [20:00] <Travis> ... Choosing the name (not trivial)
  828. # [20:00] <Travis> ... want to stay away from names that include the specific underlying data store...
  829. # [20:01] <Travis> MJS: If you think of these as a sequences, they are octet sequences (bytes)
  830. # [20:01] <Travis> AWB: Some scenarios may consider these 16-bit floats, other as larger sets.
  831. # [20:02] <Travis> OH: focus has been mostly on String/Binary
  832. # [20:02] <Travis> ... WebGL defines byte array, int array, etc.
  833. # [20:03] <Travis> ... Without the underlying data store, you have to use strings to transfer the data around.
  834. # [20:03] <Travis> MJS: Second issue: Immutable vs. Mutable.
  835. # [20:03] <Travis> ... Done via freeze() or via two types?
  836. # [20:03] <Travis> ... preference is to have two types. Should have continued discussion on the list.
  837. # [20:04] <Travis> ... Final issue, what operations are built in?
  838. # [20:04] <Travis> ... Byte level read/write, read (immutable), memcopy
  839. # [20:04] <Travis> ... Also see character transcoding, etc. that may be part of the initial set.
  840. # [20:05] <Travis> ... Would like to be more strict in the initial release.
  841. # [20:05] <Travis> WH: How would equality work?
  842. # [20:05] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169)
  843. # [20:06] <Travis> MM: Equality--are these primitive types or object types?
  844. # [20:06] <Travis> ... If the data object is more like the string object, then it should be a value object (than a primitive type)
  845. # [20:07] <Travis> paulc: [moving on to next topic]
  846. # [20:07] <Travis> Topic: ECMAScript preventExtensions() and DOM objects
  847. # [20:07] <Travis> OH: Brought up on the list before.
  848. # [20:07] <Travis> ... DOM objects should not support this.
  849. # [20:08] <Travis> ... If they do not support it, then they "cannot" support it (no partial support)
  850. # [20:08] <Travis> MJS: Soley from a WebIDL interface, could mark it as supporting (or not) prevent extensions.
  851. # [20:09] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
  852. # [20:09] <JonathanJ> rrsagent, draft minutes
  853. # [20:09] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html JonathanJ
  854. # [20:09] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 06 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  855. # [20:10] <fantasai> ?: We're not talking just about preventExtension, we're also talking about (?)
  856. # [20:10] * annevk thinks he should scribe telcons less often
  857. # [20:10] * annevk ... it obviously has bad side effects
  858. # [20:10] <fantasai> ?: readonly doesn't imply immutable. The host can change it
  859. # [20:10] <annevk> s/?/Mark Miller/
  860. # [20:11] <fantasai> ??: On the readonly question, in my rough translation of WebIDL to ECMASCRIPT5, most of the DOM properites become accessors sot hat the changeability of the underlying data ...
  861. # [20:11] <fantasai> ??: on principle, I would really rather see a clearly defined way to preventExtensions work across all ... and not restrict it to [?]
  862. # [20:11] <fantasai> ??: Web developers expect to see a consistent view of the world
  863. # [20:11] <annevk> s/??/Travis L/
  864. # [20:12] <fantasai> MJS: You would have to have ECMASCRIPT objects prevent state changes completely unrelated to ECMASCRIPT
  865. # [20:12] <annevk> s/??/Travis L/
  866. # [20:12] <fantasai> ???: We would .. preventExtensions and prevent Freeze
  867. # [20:12] <fantasai> Paul interrupts
  868. # [20:12] * Quits: oliver (oliver@72.254.90.122) (Quit: oliver)
  869. # [20:12] <rubys> s/???/Waldemar/
  870. # [20:12] <fantasai> JasonO: I agre that it's better to have a language semantics that applies to all objects in the lang
  871. # [20:13] * annevk didn't know that one, apart from affiliation :)
  872. # [20:13] <fantasai> JasonO: I think it's possible, and the ECMAScript committee should take that on. DOM is one of our major usecases
  873. # [20:13] <fantasai> JasonO: Freeze on an object may not prevent new prop from appearing on the obj, but it certainly can apply to properties added by script
  874. # [20:13] <dsinger> q+
  875. # [20:14] <fantasai> Waldemar: Part of what's freeze and friends do in ECMAScript is they ... which it throws, you can cache it. And you can do security analysis on it, if these things can change .. breaks
  876. # [20:14] * Quits: drunknbass_work (aaron@71.107.253.243) (Ping timeout)
  877. # [20:14] <annevk> dsinger, wrong room?
  878. # [20:14] * annevk thought dsinger was in #video
  879. # [20:14] <fantasai> Waldemar: We have additional issue swe have other issue.s For getters and setters ... what do these do if you call them something else ... consciously say that's not part fo the spec
  880. # [20:15] <fantasai> Jason: I disagree that freeze by itself provides these invariants.
  881. # [20:15] <fantasai> Jason: The ES5 spec says what freeze does. DOesn't say that there's an end-to-end variant that freeze causes to be true
  882. # [20:15] <fantasai> disagreement
  883. # [20:15] <fantasai> Jason: prototype vs itself
  884. # [20:16] <fantasai> Jason: Given stat eo fDOM right now, calling reeze on dom obj, even if you call recusrsively on prot chain, it's not well-define
  885. # [20:16] <fantasai> ?: It's well defined what the invariants are
  886. # [20:16] <annevk> s/?/Mark Miller/
  887. # [20:16] <fantasai> Jason: The behavior of getters and setters can depend on mutable state that's not visible anywhere else except on the object.
  888. # [20:16] <fantasai> Jason: Calling it freeze if you don't know the impl of the getters and setters isn't predictable
  889. # [20:16] <fantasai> MJS: ...
  890. # [20:17] <fantasai> Waldemar: Freeze freezes the object. If an obj has getters and setters .. API. There asre still objects that can return different things
  891. # [20:17] <fantasai> Waldemar: this is a non-issue
  892. # [20:17] <fantasai> somebody says something
  893. # [20:18] <fantasai> ??: The getter itself is the only thing that's guaranteed to be constant
  894. # [20:18] <Travis> s/??/OH/
  895. # [20:18] <fantasai> Mark: ... the local properties are unchanging
  896. # [20:18] <fantasai> Mark: If the obj has getter bhavior that it chooses to describe as data behavior, it has the choice of either frezing its describe its bheavior or rejecting the attempt to freeze
  897. # [20:18] <fantasai> Mark: If it accepts the attempt to freeze, then it can't describe as data prop
  898. # [20:19] * Quits: yfukami (48fe6e7b@207.192.75.252) (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  899. # [20:19] <fantasai> Jason: I object that freeze freezes the state of the obj in a very general sense
  900. # [20:19] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.102.51) (Ping timeout)
  901. # [20:19] <fantasai> Allan: My inter of your points is that you're copying at different levels of abstraction
  902. # [20:19] <fantasai> Allan: It's about the meta state
  903. # [20:19] <fantasai> ...
  904. # [20:20] <rubys> s/Allan/Allen Wirfs-Brock/
  905. # [20:20] <fantasai> ??: If I have a nodelist w/ a linked property
  906. # [20:20] <fantasai> ??: do I represent it as .. that's writeable, or do I expose as a getter
  907. # [20:20] <fantasai> ?? ... guarantee quality of that getter.. may vary from one obj to another
  908. # [20:20] * plh is now known as plh-salonA
  909. # [20:20] <fantasai> Allan: I think that q falls into domain of ES binding. That's the decision you make when defining a lang binding
  910. # [20:21] <fantasai> Allen: Do all prop with these charactersics behave this way
  911. # [20:21] <annevk> s/??/Oliver/
  912. # [20:21] <fantasai> Brendan: Do you have a problem with trying to propose a freeze that ... or .......
  913. # [20:21] <fantasai> :/
  914. # [20:21] <fantasai> ?: My op is that we take on the effort of ...
  915. # [20:21] * Joins: drunknbass_work (aaron@71.107.253.243)
  916. # [20:21] <fantasai> Brendan: Need to spec that if you freeze what happens
  917. # [20:22] <fantasai> Brendan: .. netapi tells you about DOM properties
  918. # [20:22] <fantasai> ?: I think that spec goes to web apps
  919. # [20:22] <fantasai> ?: I believe those issues have to be addressed in the conversion
  920. # [20:22] <fantasai> ?: I am satisfied with teh discussion
  921. # [20:22] <Travis> s/?/Travis/
  922. # [20:23] <rubys> s/teh/the/
  923. # [20:23] <fantasai> ??: By defining how attributes in general work, whether they rep getter on the obj itself or on the prototype is something that's going to be intrinsic in converting to ES5. That concept wasn't in ES3, couldn't be desc in ES3. Once we have that tool we'll have a better understanding of interaction with these meta-apis wil lbe
  924. # [20:23] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.102.51)
  925. # [20:23] <fantasai> ??: Without this new desc ,.. part of defining new desc will be talking with browser impl about ..
  926. # [20:23] <annevk> s/??/Sam/
  927. # [20:23] <fantasai> ??: There may be downsides to impl attributes as getters and setters
  928. # [20:23] <annevk> s/??/Sam/
  929. # [20:23] <fantasai> Paul: Seem to have anchored plan w/ webidl
  930. # [20:24] <Travis> scribe: Travis
  931. # [20:24] <Travis> scribeNick: Travis
  932. # [20:24] * fantasai can't scribe things she doesn't understand very well
  933. # [20:24] <Travis> Topic: Differences in Policy
  934. # [20:25] <Travis> JN: Secretary Genearl of ECMAScript should sit down with W3C contact and work out issues in IPR, other legal issues.
  935. # [20:25] <Travis> JN: These are way outside of my pay grade.
  936. # [20:25] <Travis> ... We wanted to point out that we have these issues before we work really closely.
  937. # [20:26] <Travis> paulc: Are there any issues going on today that are upsetting?
  938. # [20:26] <Travis> JN: No, no joint ventures today.
  939. # [20:26] * Joins: jorendorff (jason@72.254.92.230)
  940. # [20:26] <Travis> paulc: We do work, throw it over the fence, and this seems to work for now.
  941. # [20:26] <Travis> AWB: Hasn't necessary been the working model up until today.
  942. # [20:27] <Travis> ... In the past there was little to no communication between our groups.
  943. # [20:27] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.102.51) (Client exited)
  944. # [20:27] <Travis> paulc: Web developer expects to have symmetry
  945. # [20:27] <Travis> AWB: Many of us are associated with both affiliations (TC39/W3C)
  946. # [20:28] <Travis> PL: Thanks TC39 for accepting our invitiation to join.
  947. # [20:28] <rubys> s/PL/PLH/
  948. # [20:29] <Travis> ... We are a technical organization. We can hand off any/all documents needed (e.g., IPR)
  949. # [20:29] <Travis> IS: One of the issues is the IPR policy. W3C IPR policy is very well known. Also should be royalty-free.
  950. # [20:30] <Travis> ... ECMAScript has current IPR policy--will be gettting a new one very much the same as the old.
  951. # [20:30] <Travis> ... going to royalty free.
  952. # [20:30] <Travis> ... Intention is to do something that matches W3C policy
  953. # [20:31] <Travis> ... May not need memoriandum of understanding.
  954. # [20:31] <Travis> ... Current status is not to sign such a memoriandum.
  955. # [20:31] <Travis> PLH: We offer the full spectrum of arrangements
  956. # [20:32] <Travis> IS: ECMAScript can disclose its policies (are archived already)
  957. # [20:32] <Travis> paulc: sounds like nothing further is needed (in this group) regarding IPR policy.
  958. # [20:32] <annevk> plh-salonA, the "IPR book" is a printout of HTML5? :)
  959. # [20:33] <Travis> JN: We have a discussion list (es-discuss) for all things "Harmony" (3 years out probably)
  960. # [20:33] <Travis> ... All work is going on that list
  961. # [20:33] <rubys> https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
  962. # [20:33] <pimpbot> Title: es-discuss Info Page (at mail.mozilla.org)
  963. # [20:33] <plh-salonA> annevk, yes :)
  964. # [20:33] <annevk> ouch
  965. # [20:33] <Travis> BE: Current work related is being cross-posted to public-script-coord
  966. # [20:33] <plh-salonA> the printout is the html5 spoec as of Oct 9, 2009.
  967. # [20:34] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.102.51)
  968. # [20:34] <rubys> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-script-coord/
  969. # [20:34] <pimpbot> Title: public-script-coord@w3.org Mail Archives (at lists.w3.org)
  970. # [20:34] <plh-salonA> s/spoec/spec/
  971. # [20:34] <Travis> ... public-script-coord is for info related to WebIDL binding issues, but exact lines of deliniation are murky.
  972. # [20:34] <sylvaing> might want to add a new spec status: "Critical Mass"
  973. # [20:34] <Travis> paulc: Should describe what lists are for what.
  974. # [20:34] <Travis> MM: Binary discussion should move to es-discuss.
  975. # [20:35] <Travis> MJS: Should go mostly to the es-discuss list. Not a lot of open issues in the scenarios/use cases.
  976. # [20:35] <Travis> paulc: participation issues?
  977. # [20:35] <JonathanJ> rrsagent, draft minutes
  978. # [20:35] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html JonathanJ
  979. # [20:35] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 06 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  980. # [20:35] * plh-salonA wonders if TC39 got a chance to talk with the internationalization folks
  981. # [20:36] <Travis> JN: Where some members are not also in W3C, there are some pariticpation issues.
  982. # [20:36] <Travis> ... personally, I stayed away from plenary day because I knew I couldn't get in.
  983. # [20:36] <Travis> ... we have at least one other member that can't really participate.
  984. # [20:37] <Travis> paulc: to be clear--is this because of the IPR policy of the organisation?
  985. # [20:37] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.102.51) (Ping timeout)
  986. # [20:37] <Travis> JN: Just concerned if we get into a relationship where we are jointly building a specification.
  987. # [20:37] <Travis> paulc: can't imagine doing that with out a memoriandum of understanding.
  988. # [20:38] <plh-salonA> Don Bruztman, Web3D
  989. # [20:38] * Quits: Arron (arronei@72.254.102.226) (Ping timeout)
  990. # [20:38] <Travis> DB: X3D graphics seems to have re-hashed some of these issues. Perhaps some of our learnings can be shared.
  991. # [20:38] <Travis> paulc: Summary
  992. # [20:39] <Travis> ... Agreed upon an oral plan: Recast WebIDL in ECAMScript 5 and in parallel, describe taxonomy.
  993. # [20:39] <Travis> ... Also address issues of preventExtensions, etc.
  994. # [20:39] <Travis> ... Lies mostly on WebIDL delivery and specifically on weinig.
  995. # [20:40] <Travis> ... Binary data discussion to continue on es-discuss
  996. # [20:40] <Travis> ... Regarding Policy issues, moving to joint work will require more formalism (current ad-hoc and mailing list coordination seems OK)
  997. # [20:41] <Travis> ... So, what are a future plans for coordination?
  998. # [20:41] <Travis> JN: TC39 meets every other month (F2F) mostly in the bay area.
  999. # [20:42] <Travis> ... Try to get up to Redmond in July (it's nice there)
  1000. # [20:42] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.102.51)
  1001. # [20:42] * dom and the E in ECMA used to stand for European
  1002. # [20:42] <Travis> ... Next meeting TC39 is next January, then every other month.
  1003. # [20:42] <Travis> PLH: One point of information is that next TPAC is in November in Europe (location pending)
  1004. # [20:43] <Travis> AVK: WebApps have some targeted meetings for specific topics.
  1005. # [20:45] <Travis> I like F2F. Can we set something else up for next year (given that TPAC will be in Europe)?
  1006. # [20:45] <Travis> paulc: I will leave the final decisions up to WebApps WG and TC39.
  1007. # [20:46] <Travis> PLH: AC meeting in March may be an option. If the TC39 and WebApps wanted to meet around that time, we could arrange some extra rooms.
  1008. # [20:47] <Travis> JN: Doesn't have to be in the bay area, but would like to keep the every-two-months heartbeat meeting if possible.
  1009. # [20:47] <Travis> rubys: Plenty of companies in bay area that could host.
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  1011. # [20:48] <Travis> paulc: I think we're done. Thank you all!
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  1014. # [20:49] <dmcallis> bye
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  1019. # [20:49] <Travis> JN: Please send minutes to TC39
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  1032. # [20:55] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 8220] Remove microdata" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0068.html>
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  1067. # [21:55] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 8223] New: Won't this Doctype trigger Quirks Mode? <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0069.html>
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  1073. # [22:02] <ArtB_> RRSAgent, pointer?
  1074. # [22:02] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-irc#T21-02-07
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  1108. # [22:38] <MikeSmith> Topic: predefined Microdata vocabularies
  1109. # [22:39] <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith
  1110. # [22:39] <MikeSmith> tantek: [asks if anybody in the room has tried out Microdata]
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  1112. # [22:40] <MikeSmith> tc is tantek
  1113. # [22:40] <MikeSmith> tc: so we are not discussing the Microdata syntax or processing during this session
  1114. # [22:41] <MikeSmith> ... instead we're covering the related predefined vocabularies
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  1116. # [22:41] <MikeSmith> ... which are now in separate specs
  1117. # [22:41] <MikeSmith> ... which Hixie has requested to be published as WDs
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  1119. # [22:42] <MikeSmith> tc: those are: vcard, vevent, license
  1120. # [22:42] <MikeSmith> tc: these are not new inventions
  1121. # [22:43] <MikeSmith> ... vcard and ical came from IETF specs
  1122. # [22:43] <MikeSmith> ... around 2004 I proposed creating hCard and hCalendar
  1123. # [22:44] <MikeSmith> ... which defined a way for representing vcard and ical in HTML
  1124. # [22:44] * Joins: mth (opera@72.254.58.170)
  1125. # [22:44] <MikeSmith> ... (while the definitions of the semantics remain in the IETF specs)
  1126. # [22:45] <MikeSmith> tc: so Hixie based Microdata's vcard and vevent on hcard and hCalendar
  1127. # [22:46] <MikeSmith> tc: in the mean time, we have been working on making bug fixes to hCard and hCalendar
  1128. # [22:47] <MikeSmith> tc: so the original vocabs remain the same, and the rest of this is based on those
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  1131. # [22:47] <MikeSmith> tc: but we had existing bugs, which Hixie replicated into Microdata's vcard and vevent
  1132. # [22:48] <MikeSmith> ... so those bugs in the Microdata vocab specs not to be fixed to address those bugs
  1133. # [22:48] <Hixie> that last line made no sense
  1134. # [22:48] <Hixie> need to be fixed?
  1135. # [22:48] <MikeSmith> Hixie, yep
  1136. # [22:48] <Hixie> s/not to be/need to be/
  1137. # [22:49] <MikeSmith> thx
  1138. # [22:49] <Hixie> is there a uri to documentation on those bugs in the microdata vocabs?
  1139. # [22:49] <Hixie> (bugs, or e-mails, or something?)
  1140. # [22:50] <MikeSmith> tc: the bugs are documented on the Microformats side
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  1142. # [22:51] <Hixie> i'm in paticular interested in how they were ported over
  1143. # [22:51] <MikeSmith> tc: the Microdata vocabs should reference the 1.01 versions of the hCard and hCalendar instead of duplicating them
  1144. # [22:51] <Hixie> i didn't really look that closely at hcard when writing the vcard vocabulary, i was mostly just porting the RFC straight over
  1145. # [22:51] <Hixie> so i'm surprised that i ported bugs over from hcard also
  1146. # [22:52] <Hixie> unless they're in the vcard rfc too :-)
  1147. # [22:52] <MikeSmith> tc: I am behind on an action item to provide feedback to the group about this
  1148. # [22:52] <MikeSmith> Hixie, I think Julian said that the RFCs have been updated also
  1149. # [22:52] <gsnedders_> They are currently being revised, IIRC
  1150. # [22:53] <Hixie> oh certainly the rfcs are being updated yes
  1151. # [22:53] <MikeSmith> Julian: Tantek, would you be interested in publishing the hcard and hcalendar specs as work products of the HTML WG?
  1152. # [22:54] <MikeSmith> tc: I would be fine with that, but maybe others would object. I guess it's a question that needs to be taken to the group.
  1153. # [22:54] <gsnedders_> Hixie: It's a questioned of updated/revised :)
  1154. # [22:55] <gsnedders_> s//being/
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  1156. # [22:55] <Hixie> that's a very confusing regexp
  1157. # [22:55] <MikeSmith> tc: perhaps the larger question is whether the W3C should be publishing spec for these types of vocabs at all
  1158. # [22:55] <Hixie> and i expect it'll confuse rrsagent no end
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  1160. # [22:56] <MikeSmith> tc: I personally am neutral on the question of whether these type of vocab specs should be at W3C or not
  1161. # [22:56] <gsnedders_> it's a magic-exactly-what-I-mean-IRC-regexp :)
  1162. # [22:56] <MikeSmith> Julian: the text that was in the HTML5 spec previously repeated or rephrased parts of the RFCs
  1163. # [22:57] <MikeSmith> ... so my complaint was that if the wording of those RFCs was not adequate or was incorrect, then the feedback should go to the editors of those RFCs
  1164. # [22:57] <MikeSmith> ... so the RFCs could be updated
  1165. # [22:58] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1166. # [22:58] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  1167. # [22:58] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 06 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  1168. # [22:58] <MikeSmith> tc: vcard 4 is a new version with a ton of new features
  1169. # [22:58] <MikeSmith> ... it also has a number of bug fixes
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  1171. # [22:59] <MikeSmith> tc: there are a couple of places where I diverged from the RFCs
  1172. # [22:59] <MikeSmith> ... because the RFCs did not match the use cases
  1173. # [23:00] <MikeSmith> tc: an example of a bug/deficiency in the RFCs where Web publishing differed from the schema restrictions in the iCalendar RFC
  1174. # [23:00] <MikeSmith> ... specifically, the RFC restricts events to having only one URL associated with them
  1175. # [23:01] <MikeSmith> ... and when Hixie made Microdata vEvent vocab, he replicated that same restriction that's out of sync with real-world use cases of Web publishing of events
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  1177. # [23:02] <MikeSmith> ... whereas in hCalendar, we had made a change to allow an event to be associated with multiple URLs
  1178. # [23:03] <Hixie> yeah i just followd the rfc exactly
  1179. # [23:03] <Hixie> i'll fix it when the rfc is updated
  1180. # [23:03] <Hixie> which i understand is happening
  1181. # [23:03] <MikeSmith> tc: so, we are already tracking the RFCs and making decisions about where to diverge from the RFCs to bring them into closer alignment with real-world use cases
  1182. # [23:04] <MikeSmith> tc: so I would like for the HTML WG to hold off on publishing the Microdata vocab drafts until the hCard and hCalendar specs get updated
  1183. # [23:04] <MikeSmith> ... which will either be a matter of days or weeks
  1184. # [23:05] <MikeSmith> ... I would like to get it done in days rather than in weeks [but it will depend on how much time I can free up]
  1185. # [23:05] <MikeSmith> ... specifically, I'm talking about the 1.01 versions
  1186. # [23:06] <MikeSmith> tc: I think the vCard 4 and iCal 5545 drafts are not enough yet to be depended on
  1187. # [23:07] <MikeSmith> ... though iCal 5545 might be
  1188. # [23:07] <MikeSmith> ... but, no offense to the vCard folks, but I think there's just too much new stuff in vCard 4 that it's too early to be depending on it
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  1190. # [23:08] <MikeSmith> Julian: so another part of the perspective here is just that in general the HTML WG should avoid stepping on other peoples' specs
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  1192. # [23:09] <MikeSmith> Julian: I am worried about cases where other specs diverge from the RFCs
  1193. # [23:10] <MikeSmith> tantek: so we do diverge, but we do so in a way that enables 1-to-1 conversion back to the format specified in the RFCs
  1194. # [23:10] <MikeSmith> Julian: the revision of the iCal draft was published just two months ago
  1195. # [23:11] <MikeSmith> Julian: the vCard draft is all well along -- can still submit bug reports about it, but it's perhaps just a matter of 6 months away from being published as an RFC
  1196. # [23:12] <MikeSmith> Julian: my concern is that it's not clear that Hixie has had any communication with the vCard and vCalendar editors
  1197. # [23:13] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/mdvcard/
  1198. # [23:13] <pimpbot> Title: Microdata vocabularies: vCard (at dev.w3.org)
  1199. # [23:13] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/mdvevent/
  1200. # [23:13] <pimpbot> Title: Microdata vocabularies: vEvent (at dev.w3.org)
  1201. # [23:13] <Hixie> the vcard microdata vocab is just a direct port of the rfc, so it's not clear what communication is necessary
  1202. # [23:13] <Hixie> same with vevent
  1203. # [23:13] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/mdwork/
  1204. # [23:13] <pimpbot> Title: Microdata vocabularies: Licensing Works (at dev.w3.org)
  1205. # [23:14] <MikeSmith> we move on to discussion of the "work" (license) vocab
  1206. # [23:14] <Hixie> (i'll be over for <progress>/<meter> discussion in 15min)
  1207. # [23:14] <Hixie> we're moving on to web storage here
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  1210. # [23:15] <MikeSmith> tc: at a minimum, you have to define a processing model for cases where authors omit content which the spec says is required
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  1212. # [23:16] <MikeSmith> tc: in 2000-something, a CC RDF rel vocab was created
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  1215. # [23:17] <MikeSmith> ... then in 2004 a microformat rel-license mechanism was created, and subsequently a CC rel-license
  1216. # [23:19] <MikeSmith> tc: I think that the state of things around license vocabs is not mature enough yet
  1217. # [23:20] <MikeSmith> ... and I propose that the HTML WG should not at this point be publishing the works vocab spec at all
  1218. # [23:21] <MikeSmith> Julian: usually the page that you read in a browser and the feed that you read in a feed reader are generated from the same source (by a CMS or whatever)
  1219. # [23:21] <MikeSmith> ... so as far as the Microdata Atom spec, I'm not sure that there's any problem that it's really solving
  1220. # [23:23] <MikeSmith> Julian: my proposal is either fix the language in the spec to say that if you don't have sufficient information in the document to be able to generate a valid/conformant Atom instance, then the spec should say, just don't.
  1221. # [23:23] <MikeSmith> ... or the spec should just be dropped completely
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  1223. # [23:25] <MikeSmith> Julian: so one specific problem is that if you don't have IDs in the HTML source document, then you can't generate stable IDs in the Atom output
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  1225. # [23:27] <MikeSmith> mjs: the Atom spec seems to only require that ID remains stable within the Atom document instance itself
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  1227. # [23:28] <MikeSmith> Julian: so the concern is not the case of generating the Atom output from exactly the same HTML document, but instead generating it from *almost* the same HTML document
  1228. # [23:29] <MikeSmith> mjs: there does not actually seem to be any conformance constraint in the Atom spec that states the requirement you're expressing
  1229. # [23:29] <MikeSmith> tc: there are numerous "must" requirements in the Atom spec that a problematic
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  1231. # [23:30] <MikeSmith> ... in hAtom we are going to make all those "must" fields optional (because there are many cases of existing content that lack them)
  1232. # [23:30] <MikeSmith> ... and we will define an algorithm for generating content for them when the source lacks them
  1233. # [23:31] <MikeSmith> annevk: the Atom spec only talks about Atom documents
  1234. # [23:32] <MikeSmith> ... it does not express requirements for documents from which Atom documents might be generated
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  1236. # [23:33] <MikeSmith> Hixie: the reason it's a "should" in HTML5 is that we know it's not always possible to output a valid Atom document
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  1238. # [23:34] * Quits: Bryan_Sullivan (Bryan@72.254.95.127) (Quit: Leaving)
  1239. # [23:34] <MikeSmith> Julian: so one way to address this is to remove the whole section about generating Atom output
  1240. # [23:35] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I think it's good to have a solid mapping from HTML to Atom (though "solid" isn't exactly the best word)
  1241. # [23:35] <MikeSmith> tc: but you don't really have a solid mapping
  1242. # [23:35] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I'm happy to add text to the spec to put out the problem
  1243. # [23:36] * Parts: dom (dom@128.30.52.169)
  1244. # [23:36] <MikeSmith> Hixie: inclusion of this in the spec was driven by use cases that were expressed in the discussions that led up to Microdata
  1245. # [23:36] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1246. # [23:36] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  1247. # [23:36] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 05 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
  1248. # [23:37] <MikeSmith> mjs: there are two possible reasons why this doesn't need to be in the spec
  1249. # [23:37] <MikeSmith> ... one is whether any other part of the spec relies on this section
  1250. # [23:37] * Quits: Kai (chatzilla@72.254.102.95) (Ping timeout)
  1251. # [23:37] <MikeSmith> ... second is that there is more than one possible way to generate Atom output from an HTML document
  1252. # [23:38] <MikeSmith> ... and currently the spec makes it seem like there is only one valid way to do it
  1253. # [23:38] <MikeSmith> ... so it seems like there may not be a strong reason for keeping it in the spec
  1254. # [23:39] <MikeSmith> ... instead of having one or more specs layered on top of HTML5 spec (because there are multiple ways to generate Atom output from HTML docs)
  1255. # [23:39] * Quits: silvia (Adium@72.254.90.171) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1256. # [23:39] <MikeSmith> Hixie: my rationale for including it in the spec is that it addresses use cases that were expressed in discussions
  1257. # [23:39] * Joins: satoshi (satoshi_fu@72.254.100.15)
  1258. # [23:40] * Joins: eric_carlson (eric_carls@72.254.98.150)
  1259. # [23:40] * Joins: silvia (Adium@72.254.90.171)
  1260. # [23:41] <Julian> topic: progress/meter
  1261. # [23:41] * Joins: PIon (chatzilla@72.254.105.215)
  1262. # [23:41] <Julian> Hixie: fallback options
  1263. # [23:42] <Julian> Hixie: problem with formatting of values
  1264. # [23:42] <MikeSmith> i/progress/mjs: because it's targeted at a different conformance class than other conformance classes in the spec, it could just as well be published as a separate draft
  1265. # [23:42] <Julian> like delimites after thousands
  1266. # [23:43] * Quits: TabAtkins (chatzilla@72.254.84.206) (Connection reset by peer)
  1267. # [23:43] <Julian> TC: may need require <number> element
  1268. # [23:43] * Quits: gsnedders_ (gsnedders@83.252.226.0) (Quit: gsnedders_)
  1269. # [23:44] <Julian> TC: isomorphic to time element
  1270. # [23:44] <Julian> Hixie: progress has 6 numbers attached to it
  1271. # [23:44] <Julian> mjs: is updated by script anyway
  1272. # [23:45] <Julian> mjs: meter may be different, because there are cases for static use
  1273. # [23:46] <Julian> adrian: worried about fallback breaking
  1274. # [23:46] <Julian> adrian: testing will be costly
  1275. # [23:47] <Julian> Hixie: consensus to remove fallback?
  1276. # [23:47] * annevk sort of likes the fallback for simple cases
  1277. # [23:47] <Julian> TC: <number> would be useful in many microformats
  1278. # [23:47] * annevk i.e. 42 out of 100
  1279. # [23:47] <Julian> TC: is the one missing type element
  1280. # [23:48] <Julian> Hixie: wanted to do <time> first
  1281. # [23:49] <Julian> Hixie: <time> can come without content, and then the UA is required to generate a localized
  1282. # [23:49] <Julian> version
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  1284. # [23:50] * Joins: TabAtkins (chatzilla@72.254.84.206)
  1285. # [23:51] * Julian stops scribing
  1286. # [23:51] <annevk> time { content:local-time() }
  1287. # [23:51] <annevk> (or something like that)
  1288. # [23:51] * Joins: eric_carlson (eric_carls@72.254.98.150)
  1289. # [23:52] <Julian> there seems to be consensus in the room not to have "magic fallback"
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  1292. # [23:54] * Quits: silvia (Adium@72.254.90.171) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1293. # [23:54] * Quits: weinig (weinig@72.254.61.132) (Quit: weinig)
  1294. # [23:55] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 8225] New: Make it clear that the Atom generation section is not the only such algorithm (e.g. hAtom is fine too). <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0071.html> ** [Bug 8224] New: Mention that it's possible for the Atom section to generate invalid Atom if there's not enough data (e.g. missing authors). <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0070.html>
  1295. # [23:57] * Joins: noahm (noah_mende@12.43.172.10)
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  1297. # Session Close: Sat Nov 07 00:00:00 2009

The end :)