/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-11-06 / end

Options:

1. # Session Start: Fri Nov 06 00:00:00 2009
2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
3. # [00:00] * ht thanks the WG, has another WG to go to, bye
4. # [00:00] <DanC> Topic: Embedding data in HTML Documents
5. # [00:00] <timbl> It seems to me that Larry is asking for the MIME-type registration information to include the history of the previous specs. I think that also the spec says that it reckons to be back-compatibl anyway to a large extent. It seems reasonable to put the history in an appendix.
6. # [00:00] <Julian> TimBl, the spec does not define things that were valid before, for instance @profile
7. # [00:01] <DanC> NM paraphrases "General concern with inclusion of data capabilities ..." from http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/11/TAGHTMLTopicsList.html
8. # [00:01] <pimpbot> Title: Discussion Topics for HTML / TAG working group meeting at TPAC 2009 (at www.w3.org)
9. # [00:02] * Quits: Travis (48fe78b2@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
10. # [00:02] <DanC> for reference:
11. # [00:02] <DanC> issue-53?
12. # [00:02] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-53
13. # [00:02] <trackbot> ISSUE-53 -- Need to update media type registrations -- RAISED
14. # [00:02] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/53
15. # [00:02] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-53 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16. # [00:02] <DanC> Lachlan: use case for data-* : it's for data in a document for use by scripts.
17. # [00:02] <mjs> q+
18. # [00:02] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
19. # [00:02] <DanC> NM: does it come in the source? or is it synthesized by scripts?
20. # [00:03] <DanC> LH: both... [complicated?]
21. # [00:03] <paulc> ack mjs
22. # [00:03] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
23. # [00:03] <DanC> NM: to what extent do RDFa and data-* overlap?
24. # [00:03] <Hixie> q+ to talk about [data-value], not cross-site
25. # [00:03] * Zakim sees Hixie on the speaker queue
26. # [00:03] <timbl> timbl+ to mention name/clash/space issues from the TP debate
27. # [00:03] <DanC> MJS: they do overlap somewhat, as well as microformats...
28. # [00:04] <Hixie> q+ timbl to mention name/clash/space issues from the TP debate
29. # [00:04] * Zakim sees Hixie, timbl on the speaker queue
30. # [00:04] <DanC> ... all these mechanisms provide data for consumption by 3rd parties...
31. # [00:04] * Joins: mduran (cfq@94.194.98.91)
32. # [00:04] <DanC> [script got the above wrong, evidently...]
33. # [00:05] <Hixie> q-
34. # [00:05] * Zakim sees timbl on the speaker queue
35. # [00:05] <DanC> MJS: the use case for data-* is for private-use data...
36. # [00:05] <DanC> ... we found that script libraries made up invalid attributes to store data in...
37. # [00:05] <DanC> ... so data-* is a way to make that usage conforming.
38. # [00:06] * Quits: ht (ht@128.30.52.169) (Ping timeout)
39. # [00:06] <DanC> MJS: but could someone use this to publish data? well, sure, but that's not the intent. <p> can be abused too, of course.
40. # [00:06] <Hixie> ack timbl
41. # [00:06] <Zakim> timbl, you wanted to mention name/clash/space issues from the TP debate
42. # [00:06] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
43. # [00:06] <DanC> TBL: so let's take FBML as an example... with <fb:my-friends>...
44. # [00:07] <DanC> ... that's extending the language... it's part of the meaning of the page.
45. # [00:07] <Lachy> q+
46. # [00:07] * Zakim sees Lachy on the speaker queue
47. # [00:07] <DanC> ... they're using script libraries to invent new elements [?]
48. # [00:08] <DanC> ... it's private in the sense that it's not specified by the HTML spec, but from the point of view of someone using the extended language, they're [ETOOFARBEHIND]
49. # [00:08] <mjs> q+
50. # [00:08] * Zakim sees Lachy, mjs on the speaker queue
51. # [00:08] <tantek> q+ to mention practical experience of microformats FAQ re: use of data-* attributes.
52. # [00:08] * Zakim sees Lachy, mjs, tantek on the speaker queue
53. # [00:08] <mjs> q-
54. # [00:08] * Zakim sees Lachy, tantek on the speaker queue
55. # [00:08] <annevk> ack Lachy
56. # [00:08] * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
57. # [00:08] <DanC> Hixie: that would be abuse of data-*; other mechanisms serve that use case significantly better
58. # [00:09] * DanC suffers muddy acoustics; can't hear lachlan well at all
59. # [00:09] * annevk unicorns!
60. # [00:09] <MikeSmith> it seems likely that a not-insignificant number of authors will in fact misuse the data-* attributes; at least it seems more likely that authors will misuse data-* attributes than that they will restyle a <p> element to become a list item [Maciej's example]
61. # [00:09] <paulc> ack tantek
62. # [00:09] <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to mention practical experience of microformats FAQ re: use of data-* attributes.
63. # [00:09] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
64. # [00:09] * sylvaing signs up for Unicorn WG
65. # [00:09] <DanC> Lachy, I missed what you said; help?
66. # [00:10] <noahm> If we move on from this question, I think it's useful to agree on whether we have a direction that's likely to lead to consensus. Right now, I
67. # [00:10] <noahm> I'm afraid I'm not hearing it.
68. # [00:10] <DanC> tantek: after a small amount of initial confusion, the microformats community has learned not to misuse data-*
69. # [00:10] <noahm> I hear Hixie et. al. saying "not to be used this way". Tim saying it will.
70. # [00:10] <Lachy> I said the difference between data-* and microdata/RDFa/microformats is that the latter provides shared vocabularies with shared semantics, whereas data-* attributes are completely private with no shared semantics
71. # [00:11] <DanC> tx
72. # [00:11] <DanC> Paul: so I hear "what are the plans for factoring microdata?"
73. # [00:12] <DanC> MJS: we have a tracker issue and a change proposal to take it out; next step is a change proposal to keep it in
74. # [00:12] * karl is pretty sure it will be. If there is a possibility, people usually do it. (cf. table for layout) plus all the abuse we haven't even thought about
75. # [00:12] <DanC> issue-76?
76. # [00:12] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-76
77. # [00:12] <trackbot> ISSUE-76 -- Concerns about Microdata section and inclusion/exclusion of RDFa -- OPEN
78. # [00:12] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/76
79. # [00:12] <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-76 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
80. # [00:13] <DanC> NM: to TAG members, would it suffice to split out the microdata spec?
81. # [00:13] <DanC> PC: could you give some argument/rationale for splitting it out?
82. # [00:13] <DanC> TimBL: modularity...
83. # [00:13] <DanC> ... it'll be easier for people to read the smaller bits
84. # [00:13] <Julian> q+
85. # [00:13] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
86. # [00:14] <Hixie> ack
87. # [00:14] <Hixie> ack Julian
88. # [00:14] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
89. # [00:14] <DanC> Julian: a split out spec could still be normatively referenced...
90. # [00:14] <DanC> MJS: noone is advocating that
91. # [00:14] <masinter> q+
92. # [00:14] * Zakim sees masinter on the speaker queue
93. # [00:14] <masinter>
94. # [00:14] <masinter> q-
95. # [00:14] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
96. # [00:15] <masinter> q+
97. # [00:15] * Zakim sees masinter on the speaker queue
98. # [00:16] <masinter> q-
99. # [00:16] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
100. # [00:16] <paulc> moving on to the URI/IRI/WebAddr item
101. # [00:16] <DanC> NM: how about data-*... does the same argument re factoring out apply?
102. # [00:16] <DanC> [lack of response...]
103. # [00:16] <DanC> DanC: I don't think so
104. # [00:17] <DanC> Topic: URI/IRI/WebAddr
105. # [00:17] <DanC> NM: I note LMM's change proposal, acknowledged in the HTML WG bug tracker
106. # [00:18] <DanC> LMM: the technical issue I'm persuing is: does what browsers use for URLs match what other applications use? ...
107. # [00:18] <DanC> ... if they don't match, [something about normative references; help?]
108. # [00:19] <DanC> PC: is the intent in HTML 5 that they match?
109. # [00:19] <DanC> Hixie: [carefully worded answer; help?] they're designed to be a superset. [?]
110. # [00:20] <DanC> PC: [some question that prompted LMM to answer...]
111. # [00:20] <DanC> LMM: I think I answered that in my msg [www-tag/2009Nov/0005] ...
112. # [00:20] <DanC> ... we're trying to set up some confidence about the future; if we charter an IETF WG to meet some requirements, [ETOOFAST]
113. # [00:21] <MikeSmith> q+ to suggest that we meet at least until 3:45, given that a number of use showed up about 15 minutes late
114. # [00:21] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
115. # [00:21] <DanC> ... I'd like to treat those [design differences between HTML 5 and IRIBIS?] as bugs...
116. # [00:21] <DanC> LMM: you can't deadlock one behind the other [?]
117. # [00:22] * Quits: timbl (timbl@72.254.87.20) (Quit: timbl)
118. # [00:22] <MikeSmith> TimBL had to leave
119. # [00:22] <Hixie> IH: HTML5's definition of URL was intended to be a superset of IRI, and its definition of "valud URL" was intended to be exactly equivalent to the definition of IRI where their processing would be equivalent
120. # [00:23] <DanC> "To what extent is Web Address being moved into IRI-bis?"
121. # [00:23] <DanC> PC: it's in progress
122. # [00:23] <DanC> "is the timeline for IRI work consistent with the timeline for HTML 5?"
123. # [00:24] * Quits: eric_carlson (eric_carls@72.254.11.203) (Quit: eric_carlson)
124. # [00:24] <DanC> MJS: eventually, yes, IRIBIS has to be done before HTML5 goes to REC...
125. # [00:25] <DanC> ... but we can make a lot of orthogonal progress on HTML 5 before then.
126. # [00:25] <DanC> "Are there pieces that need to stay in HTML 5?"
127. # [00:25] <DanC> [what I heard was: we hope not.]
128. # [00:25] * Quits: shiki (sokasaka@216.239.44.65) (Quit: shiki)
129. # [00:25] <DanC> PC: we'll find out
130. # [00:26] <DanC> IH: yes, we'll figure out the boundary at some time.
131. # [00:26] * Quits: soonho (soonho@72.254.87.179) (Quit: soonho)
132. # [00:26] * Quits: weinig (weinig@72.254.105.115) (Quit: weinig)
133. # [00:26] <DanC> LMM: I'm happy for the HTML WG issue to be closed and the remainder to be handled as bugs
134. # [00:26] * Quits: Eliot_Graff (EGraff@72.254.89.93) (Quit: A day without sunshine is like .... night)
135. # [00:26] * Joins: timbl (timbl@72.254.87.20)
136. # [00:26] * DanC timecheck
137. # [00:27] <mjs> scribe mjs
138. # [00:27] <mjs> Scribe: mjs
139. # [00:27] <Hixie> ScribeNick: mjs
140. # [00:28] <mjs> Topic: Language Reference / Authoring Spec
141. # [00:28] <DanC> q+ to swap Lachlan's document back in
142. # [00:28] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, DanC on the speaker queue
143. # [00:28] <MikeSmith> q-
144. # [00:28] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
145. # [00:28] <mjs> NM: I think having a good spec to a language is important
146. # [00:28] <mjs> NM: the authoring spec is better than my worst fears
147. # [00:29] <mjs> NM: not sure this is the best we could do, compared to something handwritten
148. # [00:29] <mjs> NM: will this be a major deliverable with close review?
149. # [00:29] * DanC would like tantek to speak to this... i.e. what the design community wants/needs/likes
150. # [00:29] <mjs> IH: first - there are two other documents we have being developed
151. # [00:30] <mjs> IH: Lachlan's informative author's reference
152. # [00:30] * DanC noah, drop those pointers in pls?
153. # [00:30] <MikeSmith> my draft is at http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/
154. # [00:30] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5: The Markup Language (at dev.w3.org)
155. # [00:30] <mjs> IH: Mike's markup spec draft
156. # [00:30] <noahm> http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/
157. # [00:30] <noahm> http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/
158. # [00:30] <pimpbot> Title: HTML 5 Reference (at dev.w3.org)
159. # [00:30] <noahm> Hixie's authoring version: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/?style=author
160. # [00:30] <pimpbot> Title: HTML5 (at www.whatwg.org)
161. # [00:30] <mjs> IH: as far as my document - I haven't done as much quality assurance on the authoring annotations
162. # [00:30] <tantek> DanC - the authoring specs have been very useful to those not familiar with reading typical W3C spec-ese.
163. # [00:31] <tantek> (in my experience in talking/working with web designers)
164. # [00:31] <mjs> IH: there has been some (Philip and I have both spotted errors)
165. # [00:31] <DanC> tantek, have you looked at the authoring view that hixie has come up with?
166. # [00:31] <mjs> NM: what I'm hearing is that you are treating this deliverable seriously, whether or not it meets my taste
167. # [00:31] <DanC> do you know if others in the design community like it?
168. # [00:32] <tantek> BTW re: data-* attributes and microformats community understanding - here is the URL we send folks that seems to convince them to avoid data-* for data interchange: http://microformats.org/wiki/html5#data_attributes
169. # [00:32] <pimpbot> Title: html5 · Microformats Wiki (at microformats.org)
170. # [00:32] <mjs> IH: one of the things I'm not sure of is who the target audience is
171. # [00:32] <tantek> Zakim, status
172. # [00:32] <Zakim> I don't understand 'status', tantek
173. # [00:32] <mjs> IH: I don't know of people who would are at high enough level to understand the spec, but aren't familiar with browsers
174. # [00:32] * Joins: BryanSullivan (Bryan@135.214.40.68)
175. # [00:32] <tantek> ack Hixie
176. # [00:32] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
177. # [00:32] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@72.254.82.212) (Quit: dsinger)
178. # [00:33] <MikeSmith> a static view of the author view of the spec is at http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/
179. # [00:33] <pimpbot> Title: HTML5 (at dev.w3.org)
180. # [00:33] <mjs> NM: one thing I noticed is many UA requirements are imperative, are there a lot of cases where that remains in the author view, or is it more declarative?
181. # [00:33] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.11) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
182. # [00:33] * Quits: kohei (kohei@72.254.92.154) (Quit: Computer goes to sleep!)
183. # [00:33] <DanC> I haven't updated that for a while, MikeSmith ; have you?
184. # [00:33] <mjs> IH: fixed some cases of that, continuing to improve it
185. # [00:33] <mjs> NM: thanks for the status report. let's open this up
186. # [00:33] <MikeSmith> DanC: it's automatically updated each time Hixie commits a change
187. # [00:34] <mjs> HT: Henry was concerned that you couldn't create a good authoring spec from the current spec without adding more material
188. # [00:34] <DanC> ok; thanks, Mike
189. # [00:34] <mjs> s/HT/PC/
190. # [00:34] * Joins: adactio (adactio@91.135.3.217)
191. # [00:34] <mjs> PC: It sounds like you *have* added some material in the process, and are willing to add more
192. # [00:34] <MikeSmith> s/DanC:/DanC,
193. # [00:35] * Quits: Arron (arronei@72.254.63.254) (Ping timeout)
194. # [00:35] <mjs> PC: it sounds like we should feed that back to Henry and ask him to state what's missing
195. # [00:35] * Joins: kohei (kohei@72.254.92.154)
196. # [00:36] * Quits: satoshi (satoshi_fu@72.254.92.146) (Ping timeout)
197. # [00:36] <Hixie> q+ duplicate normative; reason for two types of content
198. # [00:36] * Zakim Hixie, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
199. # [00:36] <Hixie> q+ to say duplicate normative; reason for two types of content
200. # [00:36] * Zakim sees DanC, Hixie on the speaker queue
201. # [00:36] <mjs> DC: are you closer to done on the authoring guide?
202. # [00:36] <Hixie> ack DanC
203. # [00:36] <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to swap Lachlan's document back in
204. # [00:36] * Zakim sees Hixie on the speaker queue
205. # [00:36] <mjs> LH: there's lots of stuff, but much more is needed
206. # [00:36] * Joins: weinig (weinig@72.254.105.115)
207. # [00:36] <BryanSullivan> q+
208. # [00:36] * Zakim sees Hixie, BryanSullivan on the speaker queue
209. # [00:36] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@83.252.226.0) (Quit: gsnedders)
210. # [00:37] <mjs> PC: I've had many people approach me saying they could use a spec like this for software that generates HTML, and is not a browser
211. # [00:37] * Joins: eric_carlson (eric_carls@72.254.11.203)
212. # [00:37] * Quits: kohei (kohei@72.254.92.154) (Quit: Computer goes to sleep!)
213. # [00:37] <mjs> NM: maybe more BNF
214. # [00:37] <mjs> IH: there is more BNF. I think this audience is somewhat different than what I have been targeting
215. # [00:38] * DanC watches out for flying pigs, upon hearing about BNF in the HTML 5 spec. ;-)
216. # [00:38] <annevk> should we change the media types slot now it has already been dealt with here?
217. # [00:38] <masinter> q+ about writing API calls vs. implementing API calls
218. # [00:38] * Zakim masinter, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
219. # [00:38] <mjs> IH: on second thought, maybe emitting HTML does
220. # [00:38] * silvia agrees with annevk
221. # [00:38] <masinter> q+ to ask about about writing API calls vs. implementing API calls
222. # [00:38] * Zakim sees Hixie, BryanSullivan, masinter on the speaker queue
223. # [00:38] <Hixie> ack Hixie
224. # [00:38] <Zakim> Hixie, you wanted to say duplicate normative; reason for two types of content
225. # [00:38] <mjs> IH: but to validate you need parts of both
226. # [00:38] * Zakim sees BryanSullivan, masinter on the speaker queue
227. # [00:38] <paulc> ack hixie
228. # [00:38] * Zakim sees BryanSullivan, masinter on the speaker queue
229. # [00:38] <mjs> annevk, perhaps we should - not sure there is more to discuss about it
230. # [00:38] <MikeSmith> q+ to respond
231. # [00:38] * Zakim sees BryanSullivan, masinter, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
232. # [00:39] * Quits: tross (48fe0cc6@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC)
233. # [00:39] * Quits: adactio (adactio@91.135.3.217) (Client exited)
234. # [00:39] <mjs> IH: I don't think that we as a working group should publish two documents that both claim to be normative for the same thing
235. # [00:39] <paulc> ack bryan
236. # [00:39] * Zakim sees masinter, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
237. # [00:39] <DanC> (I disagree with Hixie on the "multiple normative documents" issue. I've done it successfully in OWL, SPARQL, and GRDDL)
238. # [00:39] <mjs> BS: we view it very favorably, our product plans for HTML5 will benefit
239. # [00:40] <BryanSullivan> q-
240. # [00:40] * Zakim sees masinter, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
241. # [00:40] <DanC> (but those were quite orthogonal; i.e. spec and test-suite-document)
242. # [00:40] <mjs> LM: one thing that's important for creators of documents that use scripting is the programmer view of the API as opposed to the implementor view
243. # [00:40] <Hixie> BryanSullivan: radio buttons are at the top right of http://whatwg.org/html5
244. # [00:41] <pimpbot> Title: HTML5 (at whatwg.org)
245. # [00:41] <mjs> LM: example: image width
246. # [00:41] * Joins: adactio (adactio@91.135.3.217)
247. # [00:41] <DanC> what was the "it" that Bryan was referring to?
248. # [00:41] <mjs> LM: explained implementation details, was not so clear for someone trying to use the API rather than implement it
249. # [00:42] <annevk> silvia, maybe you should make it another video slot :)
250. # [00:42] * Quits: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
251. # [00:42] <mjs> DanC, he didn't exactly specify but I assume BryanSullivan was referring to the authoring-focused specs
252. # [00:42] <BryanSullivan> Correct
253. # [00:42] <DanC> hm
254. # [00:42] * Quits: eric_carlson (eric_carls@72.254.11.203) (Quit: eric_carlson)
255. # [00:42] <BryanSullivan> But the guidance is appreciated
256. # [00:43] <DanC> the TAG isn't of one mind on this.
257. # [00:43] <DanC> non-normative is fine for me.
258. # [00:43] <annevk> (having said that, it seems like I'll attend the bit on caching)
259. # [00:43] <mjs> MS: I want to propose an action for the TAG: would it be acceptable to produce a language reference as a non-normative document?
260. # [00:43] * Quits: azunix (azunix@88.207.233.32) (Quit: Leaving)
261. # [00:44] <mjs> NM: to ask for clarification, which document do you mean?
262. # [00:44] * annevk wishes video would not overlap with TC39
263. # [00:44] <mjs> MS: I mean if there's a document that is not a view in the spec, just a definition of a conforming document
264. # [00:44] <mjs> NM: I will put any proposal before the TAG that you can describe
265. # [00:45] <DanC> I think of Mike's document as "a schema-based description of HTML 5" and I'd be happy to see it published non-normatively.
266. # [00:45] * Quits: prolix (4615bbaa@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC 0.5.9 (2006/06/06))
267. # [00:45] <mjs> MS: specifically I mean my H:TML document, aimed at producers only
268. # [00:46] <mjs> NM: for me personally, that's ok, and I'm willing to put that before the TAG
269. # [00:46] <Kai> If the difference between these two documents is so subtle, it probably is not such a good idea. If it can be made clear what the diff is, then yes.
270. # [00:47] <mjs> SR: would be useful to have the input because then we can decouple and execute
271. # [00:47] <hober> I'm all for MikeSmith's document being published non-normatively. Mike, have you changed your mind since http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20081118#l-207 ?
272. # [00:47] <pimpbot> Title: IRC logs: w3c / #html-wg / 20081118 (at krijnhoetmer.nl)
273. # [00:48] <MikeSmith> hober: I change my mind all the time
274. # [00:48] <hober> :)
275. # [00:48] <MikeSmith> s/hober: /hober,
276. # [00:48] <mjs> adjourned
277. # [00:48] * Quits: DanC (connolly@72.254.120.7) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
278. # [00:49] * Quits: weinig (weinig@72.254.105.115) (Quit: weinig)
279. # [00:49] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.12.88) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
280. # [00:51] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.12.88)
281. # [00:51] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@72.254.117.7) (Ping timeout)
282. # [00:51] * Quits: Kai (chatzilla@72.254.82.195) (Ping timeout)
283. # [00:52] * Quits: masinter (user@72.254.91.11) (Ping timeout)
284. # [00:57] * Joins: gurra (gurra__@82.182.22.190)
285. # [00:58] * Quits: mduran (cfq@94.194.98.91) (Quit: mduran)
286. # [00:58] * Parts: gurra (gurra__@82.182.22.190) (Leaving)
287. # [00:58] * Quits: tantek (tantek@72.254.84.166) (Quit: tantek)
288. # [01:00] * Joins: weinig (weinig@72.254.105.115)
289. # [01:00] * Quits: myakura (myakura@72.254.81.150) (Ping timeout)
290. # [01:04] * Joins: Arron (arronei@72.254.63.254)
291. # [01:04] * Joins: shiki (sokasaka@72.254.87.192)
292. # [01:05] * Joins: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.34.39)
293. # [01:05] * Joins: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30)
294. # [01:05] * Quits: noahm (noah_mende@72.254.95.252) (Ping timeout)
295. # [01:07] * Joins: noahm (noah_mende@72.254.95.252)
296. # [01:08] * Joins: Kai (chatzilla@72.254.82.195)
297. # [01:08] * Quits: paulc (48fe77fa@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
298. # [01:09] * Quits: silvia (Adium@72.254.83.191) (Quit: Leaving.)
299. # [01:10] * Quits: noahm (noah_mende@72.254.95.252) (Ping timeout)
300. # [01:10] * Quits: wendy (chatzilla@72.254.114.205) (Client exited)
301. # [01:10] <MikeSmith> Topic: Caching
302. # [01:10] <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith
303. # [01:10] * Joins: tantek (tantek@72.254.84.166)
304. # [01:11] * Joins: silvia (Adium@72.254.83.191)
305. # [01:11] <MikeSmith> URL for Nikunj's slides?
306. # [01:12] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/param/master/Invisible_Pink_Unicorn.svg?color=deeppink
307. # [01:12] <pimpbot> Title: Invisible Pink Unicorn (at dev.w3.org)
308. # [01:12] <MikeSmith> Nikunj walks us through his slides
309. # [01:12] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@72.254.117.7)
310. # [01:12] * Joins: cyns (48fe7085@128.30.52.43)
311. # [01:12] <BryanSullivan> q+
312. # [01:12] * Zakim sees masinter, MikeSmith, BryanSullivan on the speaker queue
313. # [01:12] <MikeSmith> slide - Desired Offline Data Features
314. # [01:12] <MikeSmith> q?
315. # [01:12] * Zakim sees masinter, MikeSmith, BryanSullivan on the speaker queue
316. # [01:12] <MikeSmith> ack masinter
317. # [01:12] <Zakim> masinter, you wanted to ask about about writing API calls vs. implementing API calls
318. # [01:12] <MikeSmith> ask MikeSmith
319. # [01:12] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, BryanSullivan on the speaker queue
320. # [01:13] <MikeSmith> BryanSullivan: is the datacache on the device?
321. # [01:13] <MikeSmith> Nikunj: yes
322. # [01:13] <BryanSullivan> q-
323. # [01:13] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
324. # [01:13] <MikeSmith> tlr: could just be the HTTP cache on the UA?
325. # [01:13] <Julian> s/tlr/jr/
326. # [01:13] <BryanSullivan> q+
327. # [01:14] * Zakim sees MikeSmith, BryanSullivan on the speaker queue
328. # [01:14] <MikeSmith> Nikunj: the key part is that the cache can be controlled programatically
329. # [01:14] <MikeSmith> ack MikeSmith
330. # [01:14] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to respond
331. # [01:14] * Zakim sees BryanSullivan on the speaker queue
332. # [01:14] <MikeSmith> ack BryanSullivan
333. # [01:14] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
334. # [01:14] <BryanSullivan> q-
335. # [01:14] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
336. # [01:14] <MikeSmith> BryanSullivan: so you want to make it transparent as possible?
337. # [01:14] * tantek informed #html-wg2 about cancellation of separate HTML Media Type session, and also updated the Google docs spreadsheet of the session schedule.
338. # [01:14] <MikeSmith> Nikunj: Yes, to make it seamless
339. # [01:15] <MikeSmith> Lachy: how's that different from normal HTTP cache or offline-apps ApplicationCache mechanism?
340. # [01:15] <Lachy> MikeSmith, huh?
341. # [01:16] <Lachy> MikeSmith, I didn't say that
342. # [01:16] * MikeSmith Lachy - um, I thought I heard your voice.. I guess it was somebody else
343. # [01:16] <MikeSmith> Lachy: feel free to fix it
344. # [01:16] <Lachy> I don't know who said it
345. # [01:16] * Quits: Kai (chatzilla@72.254.82.195) (Client exited)
346. # [01:16] <MikeSmith> s/Lachy: /???: /
347. # [01:16] <Lachy> s/Lachy: how/??: how/
348. # [01:17] * Joins: Kai (chatzilla@72.254.82.195)
349. # [01:17] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.11)
350. # [01:17] <MikeSmith> NM: [discusses use case of off-line photo album]
351. # [01:17] * Quits: jun (jun@72.254.101.63) (Client exited)
352. # [01:17] <MikeSmith> NM: efficiency of updates is a concern
353. # [01:18] * Joins: jun (jun@72.254.101.63)
354. # [01:18] <MikeSmith> NM: [explains HTML5 ApplicationCache]
355. # [01:18] <MikeSmith> q?
356. # [01:18] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
357. # [01:18] * Joins: mnot (mnotting@72.254.12.185)
358. # [01:18] <MikeSmith> BryanSullivan: is the datacache going to act like a local server?
359. # [01:19] <MikeSmith> ... or not really
360. # [01:19] * Quits: JF (chatzilla@72.254.61.214) (Ping timeout)
361. # [01:19] <MikeSmith> BryanSullivan: so you want controlled cache lifetime
362. # [01:19] <MikeSmith> ... application control
363. # [01:20] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 8210] New: Add drawFocusRing(x,y,w,h,element) which, if element is focused, draws a system focus ring at x,y,w,h. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0055.html>
364. # [01:20] <MikeSmith> cardona507: is there a spec'ed limit on the size of an HTML5 application cache?
365. # [01:21] <MikeSmith> Hixie: no, [because the practical limit is device-dependent]
366. # [01:21] * Quits: cyns (48fe7085@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
367. # [01:21] <MikeSmith> NM: [discusses off-line attachments use case]
368. # [01:22] * Quits: aroben (aroben@71.58.77.15) (Connection reset by peer)
369. # [01:22] <MikeSmith> NM: [discusses use case of offline data format conversion]
370. # [01:23] * Joins: eric_carlson (eric_carls@72.254.11.203)
371. # [01:25] <MikeSmith> NM: [use case of blog client]
372. # [01:25] <tantek> regarding the Off-line data format conversaion use case of converting to iCal - I know a few things about that ;)
373. # [01:26] <tantek> e.g. http://h2vx.com/ics/ will convert pages with hCalendar to iCal format so that the events can be added to a native calendar application.
374. # [01:26] <pimpbot> Title: H2VX: hCalendar to iCalendar (at h2vx.com)
375. # [01:26] <BryanSullivan> q+
376. # [01:26] * Zakim sees BryanSullivan on the speaker queue
377. # [01:26] <tantek> also, in Firefox, it has already parsed the hCalendars on the page, so you could have a javascript: hyperlink extract that information from the DOM and redirect to a data: URL of type text/calendar with the iCal data inline.
378. # [01:27] <Bert> (I think the name of the proposal is wrong. It's not a cache, it's data replication.)
379. # [01:27] <Julian> it would be a proxy that allows offline work
380. # [01:27] <tantek> Bert, I think cache is correct because he is implying ephemeral expectation of data availability, rather than reliable replication
381. # [01:28] <MikeSmith> BryanSullivan: so you are saying, "I am programatically queuing up data that will be sent to the server once you get back online?"
382. # [01:28] <BryanSullivan> q-
383. # [01:28] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
384. # [01:29] <MikeSmith> Julian: I have a problem understanding how that will work in practice [for particular cases]
385. # [01:29] <tantek> q+ to mention that Firefox + Operator solves the offline iCal format generation problem.
386. # [01:29] * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
387. # [01:30] <MikeSmith> NM: what URI gets minted is up to the application
388. # [01:31] <MikeSmith> NM: [use case of co-existence and error recovery]
389. # [01:31] <MikeSmith> NM: you want the user to be alerted _before_ the sync cycle is complete
390. # [01:32] * Quits: eric_carlson (eric_carls@72.254.11.203) (Quit: eric_carlson)
391. # [01:33] <MikeSmith> NM: reporting errors earlier reduces the problems with recovery
392. # [01:34] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169)
393. # [01:35] <MikeSmith> NM: [discussing offline authorization use case]
394. # [01:36] <MikeSmith> NM: DataCache API spec is in FPWD in WebApps WG
395. # [01:37] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DataCache/
396. # [01:37] <pimpbot> Title: DataCache API (at dev.w3.org)
397. # [01:37] <Hixie> q+
398. # [01:37] * Zakim sees tantek, Hixie on the speaker queue
399. # [01:37] <MikeSmith> ack tantek
400. # [01:37] <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to mention that Firefox + Operator solves the offline iCal format generation problem.
401. # [01:37] * Zakim sees Hixie on the speaker queue
402. # [01:38] <MikeSmith> tantek: in practice this is one in a couple different ways
403. # [01:38] <MikeSmith> ... client-side plugin is one -- like Firefox Operator extension
404. # [01:38] <MikeSmith> ... other way is to do is on the server side
405. # [01:40] <MikeSmith> tantek: so how is this proposal better than existing mechanisms [that already address these use cases]
406. # [01:43] * Quits: gavin (gavin@99.226.207.11) (Ping timeout)
407. # [01:43] <MikeSmith> NM: effectively you can think of it as a portable local server that can respond to network requests
408. # [01:43] <MikeSmith> tantek: so it's like Opera Unite?
409. # [01:43] * Joins: gavin (gavin@99.226.207.11)
410. # [01:44] * Quits: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
411. # [01:45] <MikeSmith> annevk: this is in the context of the Web application, whereas Opera Unite is a user-controlled mechanism
412. # [01:47] <MikeSmith> NM: it is possible to bypass the datacache, by the user.. and possible to bypass by XHR
413. # [01:47] <Hixie> ack Hixie
414. # [01:47] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
415. # [01:47] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I agree with all the use cases
416. # [01:48] <MikeSmith> ... and Google has many more use cases [for client-side caching]
417. # [01:48] * cardona507 asked if there was a similar network and fallback mechanism similar to appcache - he responded not currently
418. # [01:48] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I think it fits pretty well with ApplicationCache, but I think it's too early to consider adding this [DataCache] to the platform
419. # [01:50] <MikeSmith> i/it is possible/cardona507: [asked if there was a similar network and fallback mechanism similar to appcache: NM responded, Not currently]
420. # [01:50] <MikeSmith> mjs: I agree with Hixie that we should be careful about how to stage the addition of new features
421. # [01:50] <MikeSmith> ... AppCache has been shipping for more than a year
422. # [01:50] <MikeSmith> ... people are building businesses around it
423. # [01:51] <MikeSmith> ... and building serious stuff on top of it
424. # [01:51] <MikeSmith> mjs: I would like to see two solid implementations of AppCache that we can demonstrate are interoperable
425. # [01:52] <MikeSmith> ... then look at the pain points that developers who are using AppCache have run into [and consider adding additional features to address those]
426. # [01:52] * Joins: Yves (ylafon@128.30.52.169)
427. # [01:53] <MikeSmith> annevk: [discusses a case of how to handle a page with an image that gets removed from the cache]
428. # [01:53] * Quits: shiki (sokasaka@72.254.87.192) (Quit: shiki)
429. # [01:53] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah, it's not yet bug-free.. which is why I worry about [putting new features into it now]
430. # [01:54] <MikeSmith> Hixie: [points out that existence of a draft spec can sometimes cause features to get implemented prematurely]
431. # [01:55] <MikeSmith> mjs: some features are of the kind where implementing the first 80% is pretty straightforward to implement, but last 20% is much more problematic
432. # [01:56] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
433. # [01:56] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
434. # [01:56] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 05 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
435. # [01:58] <MikeSmith> [Nikunj completes his presentation ]
436. # [02:01] * Quits: cardona507 (carloscard@72.254.11.214) (Quit: cardona507)
437. # [02:01] * Quits: mjs (mjs@72.254.59.20) (Quit: mjs)
438. # [02:01] * Quits: adrianba (adrianba@72.254.91.71) (Ping timeout)
439. # [02:01] * Quits: mnot (mnotting@72.254.12.185) (Quit: mnot)
440. # [02:02] * Quits: weinig (weinig@72.254.105.115) (Quit: weinig)
441. # [02:03] * Quits: rubys (rubys@72.254.102.5) (Quit: Leaving.)
442. # [02:04] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.87.163) (Ping timeout)
443. # [02:05] * Quits: Arron (arronei@72.254.63.254) (Ping timeout)
444. # [02:06] * Joins: Arron (arronei@72.254.63.254)
445. # [02:09] * Quits: Kai (chatzilla@72.254.82.195) (Ping timeout)
446. # [02:09] * Joins: cardona507 (carloscard@72.254.11.214)
447. # [02:09] * Joins: mjs (mjs@72.254.59.20)
448. # [02:09] * Joins: weinig (weinig@72.254.105.115)
449. # [02:09] * Joins: Eliot_Graff (EGraff@72.254.89.93)
450. # [02:11] * Quits: PIon (chatzilla@72.254.108.83) (Client exited)
451. # [02:14] * Joins: Kai (chatzilla@72.254.82.195)
452. # [02:18] * Quits: BryanSullivan (Bryan@135.214.40.68) (Client exited)
453. # [02:20] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 8211] New: HTML 4 defined these as entities &name; where the ";" wasn't part of the entity name, and there wasn't a variation that some names don't have ";". If this is an example of error recovery, valid HTML should require the ;. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0056.html>
454. # [02:21] * Quits: tantek (tantek@72.254.84.166) (Quit: tantek)
455. # [02:24] * Joins: Kai_ (chatzilla@72.254.82.195)
456. # [02:24] * Quits: Kai (chatzilla@72.254.82.195) (Ping timeout)
457. # [02:25] * Kai_ is now known as Kai
458. # [02:26] * Joins: wendy (chatzilla@72.254.114.205)
459. # [02:27] * Joins: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30)
460. # [02:27] * Quits: annevk (opera@72.254.60.246) (Ping timeout)
461. # [02:29] * Quits: Kai (chatzilla@72.254.82.195) (Client exited)
462. # [02:30] * Joins: Kai (chatzilla@72.254.82.195)
463. # [02:30] * Joins: shiki (sokasaka@72.254.87.192)
464. # [02:31] * Joins: tantek (tantek@72.254.84.166)
465. # [02:32] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.23.228)
466. # [02:32] * Joins: eric_carlson (eric_carls@17.203.15.26)
467. # [02:33] * Quits: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.34.39) (Ping timeout)
468. # [02:34] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@72.254.117.7) (Quit: sylvaing)
469. # [02:35] * Quits: Arron (arronei@72.254.63.254) (Ping timeout)
470. # [02:37] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
471. # [02:37] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
472. # [02:37] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 05 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
473. # [02:39] * Parts: adactio (adactio@91.135.3.217)
474. # [02:41] * Quits: silvia (Adium@72.254.83.191) (Quit: Leaving.)
475. # [02:44] * Quits: Kai (chatzilla@72.254.82.195) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.4/20091016092926])
476. # [02:44] * Quits: wendy (chatzilla@72.254.114.205) (Client exited)
477. # [02:47] * Joins: silvia (Adium@72.254.83.191)
478. # [02:48] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169) (Quit: tlr)
479. # [02:48] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.12.88) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
480. # [02:50] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 8212] New: gggfgfgfgfgfgfg <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0059.html> ** [Bug 8210] Add drawFocusRing(x,y,w,h,element) which, if element is focused, draws a system focus ring at x,y,w,h. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0058.html> ** [Bug 8211] HTML 4 defined these as entities &name; where the ";" wasn't part of the entity name, and there wasn't a variation that s
481. # [02:52] * Quits: weinig (weinig@72.254.105.115) (Quit: weinig)
482. # [02:52] * Quits: Eliot_Graff (EGraff@72.254.89.93) (Quit: If your not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space)
483. # [02:52] * Quits: cardona507 (carloscard@72.254.11.214) (Quit: cardona507)
484. # [02:54] * Quits: mjs (mjs@72.254.59.20) (Quit: mjs)
485. # [02:55] * Quits: tantek (tantek@72.254.84.166) (Quit: tantek)
486. # [02:58] * Parts: jeanne (jeanne@128.30.52.30)
487. # [02:59] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@17.197.23.228) (Quit: dsinger)
488. # [03:01] * Quits: jallan (jallan@72.254.102.242) (Ping timeout)
489. # [03:01] * Parts: Yves (ylafon@128.30.52.169)
490. # [03:03] * Quits: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
491. # [03:04] * Quits: mth (opera@72.254.58.170) (Quit: mth)
492. # [03:06] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmithX@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
493. # [03:08] * Parts: Bert (bbos@mcclure.w3.org)
494. # [03:10] * Quits: wonsuk (wslee@72.254.12.27) (Quit: wonsuk)
495. # [03:11] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
496. # [03:11] * Quits: shiki (sokasaka@72.254.87.192) (Quit: shiki)
497. # [03:11] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.11) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
498. # [03:11] * Quits: silvia (Adium@72.254.83.191) (Quit: Leaving.)
499. # [03:12] * Quits: jun (jun@72.254.101.63) (Quit: jun)
500. # [03:16] * Quits: timbl (timbl@72.254.87.20) (Quit: timbl)
501. # [03:20] * Joins: noahm (noah_mende@72.254.95.252)
502. # [03:24] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.82.210)
503. # [03:28] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.82.210) (Ping timeout)
504. # [03:33] * Joins: Arron (arronei@72.254.63.254)
505. # [03:33] * Quits: noahm (noah_mende@72.254.95.252) (Ping timeout)
506. # [03:36] * Quits: Arron (arronei@72.254.63.254) (Ping timeout)
507. # [03:43] * Quits: timeless (timeless@72.254.83.255) (Quit: timeless)
508. # [03:48] * Joins: timbl (timbl@72.254.90.179)
509. # [04:10] * Quits: webspinner (ws@70.177.162.26) (Ping timeout)
510. # [04:21] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
511. # [04:21] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
512. # [04:49] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@68.126.191.59)
513. # [04:54] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@68.126.191.59) (Quit: dsinger)
514. # [05:34] * Joins: Arron (arronei@72.254.63.254)
515. # [05:37] * Quits: Arron (arronei@72.254.63.254) (Ping timeout)
516. # [05:40] * Joins: weinig (weinig@67.180.35.124)
517. # [06:24] * Joins: silvia (Adium@72.254.83.191)
518. # [06:29] * Joins: Arron (arronei@72.254.63.254)
519. # [06:31] * Quits: weinig (weinig@67.180.35.124) (Quit: weinig)
520. # [06:37] * Quits: silvia (Adium@72.254.83.191) (Quit: Leaving.)
521. # [06:39] * Quits: Arron (arronei@72.254.63.254) (Ping timeout)
522. # [06:42] * Joins: mjs (mjs@69.181.42.237)
523. # [07:00] * Joins: noahm (noah_mende@12.43.172.10)
524. # [07:04] * Joins: weinig (weinig@67.180.35.124)
525. # [07:07] * Joins: cardona507 (carloscard@209.172.114.240)
526. # [07:11] * Joins: jun (jun@72.254.101.173)
527. # [07:12] * Quits: jun (jun@72.254.101.173) (Quit: jun)
528. # [07:17] * Joins: Kangchan (Kangchan@209.172.114.240)
529. # [07:20] * Quits: noahm (noah_mende@12.43.172.10) (Ping timeout)
530. # [07:26] * Parts: Kangchan (Kangchan@209.172.114.240)
531. # [07:26] * Quits: cardona507 (carloscard@209.172.114.240) (Connection reset by peer)
532. # [07:26] * Joins: cardona507 (carloscard@209.172.114.240)
533. # [07:36] * Quits: cardona507 (carloscard@209.172.114.240) (Connection reset by peer)
534. # [07:37] * Joins: cardona507 (carloscard@209.172.114.240)
535. # [07:37] * Quits: cardona507 (carloscard@209.172.114.240) (Quit: cardona507)
536. # [07:54] * Quits: drunknbass_work (aaron@71.107.253.243) (Quit: Leaving...)
537. # [07:59] * Quits: weinig (weinig@67.180.35.124) (Quit: weinig)
538. # [08:02] * Joins: wonsuk (wslee@64.211.20.2)
539. # [08:07] <hsivonen> was it pointed out to the TAG that "XML document" in HTML5 means a tree while in XML 1.0 it means a stream?
540. # [08:12] * Joins: DanC (connolly@72.254.120.7)
541. # [08:25] * Quits: DanC (connolly@72.254.120.7) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
542. # [08:43] * Quits: eric_carlson (eric_carls@17.203.15.26) (Quit: eric_carlson)
543. # [08:44] <mjs> hsivonen: their complaint was that the term "XML document" was not linked to a definition, so I'm not sure citing different definitions would have helped
544. # [08:46] * Joins: Arron (arronei@72.254.63.254)
545. # [08:48] * Joins: tantek (tantek@70.36.139.203)
546. # [08:52] * Quits: Arron (arronei@72.254.63.254) (Ping timeout)
547. # [09:08] * Quits: gavin (gavin@99.226.207.11) (Ping timeout)
548. # [09:19] * Quits: tantek (tantek@70.36.139.203) (Quit: tantek)
549. # [09:19] * Quits: wonsuk (wslee@64.211.20.2) (Quit: wonsuk)
550. # [10:28] * Joins: mduran (cfq@94.194.98.91)
551. # [10:29] * Quits: mduran (cfq@94.194.98.91) (Quit: mduran)
552. # [10:38] * Joins: Arron (arronei@72.254.63.254)
553. # [10:38] * Joins: wonsuk (wslee@64.211.20.2)
554. # [10:58] * Quits: Arron (arronei@72.254.63.254) (Ping timeout)
555. # [11:02] * Joins: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38)
556. # [11:22] * Joins: xover (xover@193.157.66.22)
557. # [11:24] * Joins: Arron (arronei@72.254.63.254)
558. # [11:26] * Quits: xover (xover@193.157.66.22) (Ping timeout)
559. # [11:27] * Joins: xover (xover@193.157.66.22)
560. # [11:41] * Quits: mjs (mjs@69.181.42.237) (Quit: mjs)
561. # [11:49] * Joins: mjs (mjs@69.181.42.237)
562. # [12:03] * Quits: Arron (arronei@72.254.63.254) (Ping timeout)
563. # [12:10] * Quits: mjs (mjs@69.181.42.237) (Quit: mjs)
564. # [12:42] * Quits: gsnedders|work (gsnedders@88.131.66.80) (Quit: Adios Intarwebs!)
565. # [12:53] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 8212] gggfgfgfgfgfgfg <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0063.html> ** [Bug 8216] New: editorial: Hide "The name must be one that is terminated by a U+003B SEMICOLON character (;)." and relevant rows in the entity table from the author view. [sp] <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0062.html> ** [Bug 8211] HTML 4 defined these as entities &name; where the ";" wasn't par
566. # [13:19] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@88.131.66.80)
567. # [13:48] * Joins: myakura (myakura@72.254.86.128)
568. # [13:48] * Joins: webspinner (ws@70.177.162.26)
569. # [13:53] * Joins: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217)
570. # [14:01] * Joins: Arron (arronei@72.254.63.254)
571. # [14:04] * Quits: Arron (arronei@72.254.63.254) (Ping timeout)
572. # [14:08] * Quits: myakura (myakura@72.254.86.128) (Quit: Leaving...)
573. # [14:55] * Joins: myakura (myakura@72.254.86.128)
574. # [16:04] * Quits: deltab (deltab@82.36.30.34) (Ping timeout)
575. # [16:04] * Joins: deltab (deltab@82.36.30.34)
576. # [16:20] * Joins: mjs (mjs@69.181.42.237)
577. # [16:23] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 8218] New: No, this algorithm cannot be aborted, as there are no synchronous events from which to call load() <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0064.html>
578. # [16:24] * Joins: weinig (weinig@67.180.35.124)
579. # [16:34] * Quits: mjs (mjs@69.181.42.237) (Quit: mjs)
580. # [16:42] * Quits: myakura (myakura@72.254.86.128) (Quit: Leaving...)
581. # [17:01] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.114.71)
582. # [17:14] * Quits: weinig (weinig@67.180.35.124) (Quit: weinig)
583. # [17:21] * Joins: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30)
584. # [17:21] * Joins: eric_carlson (eric_carls@72.254.98.150)
585. # [17:27] * Joins: myakura (myakura@72.254.86.128)
586. # [17:27] * Joins: cardona507 (carloscard@72.254.100.38)
587. # [17:28] <myakura> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Apvkq1IRZaQVdEFieXBXVHVkVWZaWlFNVDJpU1I2eGc
588. # [17:28] <pimpbot> Title: Welcome to Google Docs (at spreadsheets.google.com)
589. # [17:29] <Hixie> thanks!
590. # [17:33] * Quits: wonsuk (wslee@64.211.20.2) (Quit: wonsuk)
591. # [17:35] * Joins: eric_carlson_ (eric_carls@72.254.98.150)
592. # [17:35] * Quits: eric_carlson (eric_carls@72.254.98.150) (Connection reset by peer)
593. # [17:35] * eric_carlson_ is now known as eric_carlson
594. # [17:36] * Joins: timeless_mbp (timeless@72.254.100.219)
595. # [17:36] * Joins: jallan (jallan@72.254.113.146)
596. # [17:38] * Joins: kohei (kohei@72.254.100.85)
597. # [17:39] * Quits: myakura (myakura@72.254.86.128) (Ping timeout)
598. # [17:39] * Quits: eric_carlson (eric_carls@72.254.98.150) (Connection reset by peer)
599. # [17:39] * Joins: eric_carlson (eric_carls@72.254.98.150)
600. # [17:40] * Joins: myakura (myakura@72.254.86.128)
601. # [17:40] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169)
602. # [17:42] * Quits: eric_carlson (eric_carls@72.254.98.150) (Quit: eric_carlson)
603. # [17:44] * Joins: adrianba (adrianba@72.254.118.58)
604. # [17:46] * Joins: eric_carlson (eric_carls@72.254.98.150)
605. # [17:47] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.114.71) (Ping timeout)
606. # [17:49] * Joins: mth (opera@72.254.58.170)
607. # [17:50] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmithX@mcclure.w3.org)
608. # [17:51] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.169)
609. # [17:51] <MikeSmith> does anybody recall who proposed the RDFa and Microdata session?
610. # [17:51] <MikeSmith> we need somebody to chair the session
611. # [17:55] * Joins: annevk (opera@72.254.62.128)
612. # [17:59] * Joins: brutzman (cd9b41e2@128.30.52.43)
613. # [18:00] <brutzman> X3D slides (in wiki form) available at http://www.web3d.org/x3d/wiki/index.php/X3D_and_HTML5_Summary
614. # [18:00] <pimpbot> Title: X3D and HTML5 Summary - Web3D.org (at www.web3d.org)
615. # [18:01] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@72.254.108.58)
616. # [18:02] * Joins: soonho (soonho@72.254.89.147)
617. # [18:03] * Joins: rubys (rubys@72.254.62.24)
618. # [18:03] * Joins: silvia (Adium@72.254.90.171)
619. # [18:04] * Joins: paulc (48fe642a@128.30.52.43)
620. # [18:04] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.102.51)
621. # [18:05] <cardona507> good morning everyone
622. # [18:05] <brutzman> X3D slides (in wiki form) available at http://www.web3d.org/x3d/wiki/index.php/X3D_and_HTML5_Summary
623. # [18:05] <pimpbot> Title: X3D and HTML5 Summary - Web3D.org (at www.web3d.org)
624. # [18:06] * Joins: satoshi (satoshi_fu@72.254.100.15)
625. # [18:06] * Joins: tantek (tantek@72.254.84.209)
626. # [18:06] * Joins: PIon (chatzilla@72.254.105.215)
627. # [18:08] * timeless_mbp is now known as timeless
628. # [18:08] * Joins: dsinger (dsinger@72.254.101.235)
629. # [18:08] * Joins: Kai (chatzilla@72.254.102.95)
630. # [18:09] <paulc> Handing out Web3D DVDs
631. # [18:09] * Quits: timbl (timbl@72.254.90.179) (Ping timeout)
632. # [18:09] * Joins: mjs (mjs@72.254.63.193)
633. # [18:10] * Joins: Eliot_Graff (EGraff@72.254.88.87)
634. # [18:10] * Joins: plh (plh@128.30.52.28)
635. # [18:11] * Joins: DanC (connolly@72.254.102.131)
636. # [18:13] * Joins: chaals (chaals@72.254.101.2)
637. # [18:16] * Joins: mnot (mnotting@216.75.233.116)
638. # [18:16] * Parts: mnot (mnotting@216.75.233.116)
639. # [18:16] * Joins: timbl (timbl@72.254.102.90)
640. # [18:20] <Kai> +1 to mjs
641. # [18:21] * Joins: weinig (weinig@72.254.61.132)
642. # [18:21] <annevk> Kai, we're using #html-wg2 ;-)
643. # [18:22] * Kai duh
644. # [18:22] * Joins: noahm (noah_mende@72.254.95.177)
645. # [18:24] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 8210] Add drawFocusRing(x,y,w,h,element) which, if element is focused, draws a system focus ring at x,y,w,h. <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0065.html>
646. # [18:26] * Quits: satoshi (satoshi_fu@72.254.100.15) (Ping timeout)
647. # [18:26] * Joins: Arron (arronei@72.254.102.226)
648. # [18:35] * Joins: timeless_mbp (timeless@72.254.100.219)
649. # [18:36] * Quits: timeless (timeless@72.254.100.219) (Ping timeout)
650. # [18:49] * Quits: mjs (mjs@72.254.63.193) (Quit: mjs)
651. # [18:49] * Joins: mjs (mjs@72.254.63.193)
652. # [18:50] * Joins: JonathanJ (hollobit@72.254.87.188)
653. # [18:51] * Quits: mjs (mjs@72.254.63.193) (Quit: mjs)
654. # [18:52] * Joins: mjs (mjs@72.254.63.193)
655. # [18:55] <JonathanJ> rrsagent, draft minutes
656. # [18:55] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html JonathanJ
657. # [18:55] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 05 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
658. # [18:58] * Joins: drunknbass_work (aaron@71.107.253.243)
659. # [18:58] * Quits: kohei (kohei@72.254.100.85) (Quit: Computer goes to sleep!)
660. # [18:59] <timeless_mbp> ACTION: Kai to document use cases *ON A WEB PAGE*, or you talk to Ivan and request that he document the use cases on a web page
661. # [18:59] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
662. # [18:59] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Kai
663. # [18:59] * RRSAgent records action 7
664. # [18:59] * Joins: shiki (sokasaka@72.254.57.135)
665. # [19:00] * Quits: mjs (mjs@72.254.63.193) (Quit: mjs)
666. # [19:00] * Quits: adrianba (adrianba@72.254.118.58) (Ping timeout)
667. # [19:00] * Quits: Eliot_Graff (EGraff@72.254.88.87) (Quit: For Sale: Parachute. Only used once, never opened, small stain.)
668. # [19:00] * timeless_mbp is now known as timeless
669. # [19:01] <PIon> http://www.web3d.org/x3d/ X3D for Developers Page
670. # [19:01] <pimpbot> Title: X3D for Developers (at www.web3d.org)
671. # [19:01] * Quits: shiki (sokasaka@72.254.57.135) (Quit: shiki)
672. # [19:01] * Quits: weinig (weinig@72.254.61.132) (Quit: weinig)
673. # [19:01] * Quits: mth (opera@72.254.58.170) (Ping timeout)
674. # [19:01] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.102.51) (Ping timeout)
675. # [19:02] * Quits: jallan (jallan@72.254.113.146) (Ping timeout)
676. # [19:02] * Quits: cardona507 (carloscard@72.254.100.38) (Quit: cardona507)
677. # [19:03] * Joins: cardona507 (carloscard@72.254.100.38)
678. # [19:05] * Quits: timeless (timeless@72.254.100.219) (Client exited)
679. # [19:05] * Joins: mjs (mjs@72.254.63.193)
680. # [19:05] * Quits: Kai (chatzilla@72.254.102.95) (Ping timeout)
681. # [19:06] * Joins: shiki (sokasaka@72.254.57.135)
682. # [19:06] * Joins: weinig (weinig@72.254.61.132)
683. # [19:06] * Quits: cardona507 (carloscard@72.254.100.38) (Quit: cardona507)
684. # [19:07] * Joins: cardona507 (carloscard@72.254.100.38)
685. # [19:08] * Joins: jallan (jallan@72.254.113.146)
686. # [19:08] * Joins: marcin (marcin_@72.254.107.152)
687. # [19:09] * Joins: Travis (48fe525b@128.30.52.43)
688. # [19:09] * Joins: Eliot_Graff (EGraff@72.254.88.87)
689. # [19:10] * Parts: jallan (jallan@72.254.113.146)
690. # [19:11] * Joins: mth (opera@72.254.58.170)
691. # [19:11] <plh> video talks on #video now
692. # [19:14] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.102.51)
693. # [19:14] * Joins: TabAtkins (chatzilla@72.254.84.206)
694. # [19:14] <Travis> scribe: Travis
695. # [19:15] <Travis> scribeNick: Travis
696. # [19:15] <Travis> JN: [presents tentative TC39 agenda]
697. # [19:16] <Travis> weinig: Brief overview of WebIDL
698. # [19:16] * Joins: dmcallis (davemc@192.150.10.200)
699. # [19:16] <Travis> ... Intent of WebIDL is to give unitified place for DOM + other specs a JavaScript binding.
700. # [19:17] <Travis> ... want to give it as much clarity as possible
701. # [19:17] <Travis> ... vs. previous IDLs which were more ambiguous
702. # [19:17] <Travis> ... now it defines how prototypes interact...
703. # [19:17] <Travis> ... getter/setters for collections (not same as accessors)
704. # [19:17] <Travis> ... extra property semantics (e.g., [Replacable])
705. # [19:18] <Travis> ... would like to take it to Last Call ASAP, but understand there are more concerns.
706. # [19:18] <Travis> MJS: discussed webidl in the WebApps WG meeting earlier this week.
707. # [19:18] * Joins: tross (48fe5bf3@128.30.52.43)
708. # [19:18] <Travis> ... decided to first move existing semantics over to ES5 semantics.
709. # [19:19] <Travis> AWB: Some TC39 concerns with current draft: ES binding is not what is classicly considered a language binding.
710. # [19:19] <JonathanJ> rrsagent, draft minutes
711. # [19:19] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html JonathanJ
712. # [19:19] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 06 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
713. # [19:19] <Travis> MJS: maps to host object extensibilily
714. # [19:19] * Joins: satoshi (satoshi_fu@72.254.100.15)
715. # [19:20] <Travis> AWB: could be interpreted as colliding with ES language definitions.
716. # [19:20] <Travis> weinig: Also key idea is to define what behaviors allready exist in browsers
717. # [19:20] <Travis> MM: TC39 understands that for things that already exist we do need a formalism for these things...
718. # [19:21] <Travis> ... TC39 has been trying to narrow the gab between host objects and native objects.
719. # [19:21] <rubys> s/gab/gap/
720. # [19:21] <Travis> ... HTML5 has used the WebIDL spec to spec things that are in the gab. Many of these things are considered bad practice (name getters)
721. # [19:22] <Travis> ... Would like to have design contraints to see what should be avoided in future specs.
722. # [19:22] <Travis> weinig: Discussed earlier this week, and decided to split out some of these "bad practices" into different parts of the spec (or make them clear)
723. # [19:23] <Travis> AWB: Ideally, useful features that are host object extensions should come back into the native language.
724. # [19:23] * Quits: marcin (marcin_@72.254.107.152) (Ping timeout)
725. # [19:24] <Travis> MJS: Goal at a high level is to ultimately converge. By extending ECMAScript on one hand, and carefully control what behaviors are availble in new specs (and what shouldn't be used).
726. # [19:24] <Travis> ... WebIDL can be the bridge to what is considered appropriate.
727. # [19:24] <Travis> paulc: Coming back to building an agenda.
728. # [19:26] <Travis> MJS: Would like to add topic on Binary data and pushing it into core ECMAScript.
729. # [19:28] * annevk wants his binary data representation :)
730. # [19:28] <weinig> annevk: you have a proposal?
731. # [19:28] <annevk> mjs has :)
732. # [19:29] * Joins: yfukami (48fe6e7b@207.192.75.252)
733. # [19:30] <weinig> annevk: oh, you meant, "•annevk wants His binary data proposal"
734. # [19:30] * Joins: ArtB (chatzilla@192.100.104.17)
735. # [19:32] <Travis> paulc: Last call on the agenda?
736. # [19:32] <annevk> weinig, no, I just want to have an object in ECMAScript so I can use it :)
737. # [19:32] * Quits: tH (Rob@82.4.89.172) (Ping timeout)
738. # [19:33] <annevk> responseData (or whatever) on XHR
739. # [19:33] * Joins: marcin (marcin_@72.254.107.152)
740. # [19:33] * Joins: oliver (oliver@72.254.90.122)
741. # [19:34] <Travis> Topic: WebIDL (10 min)
742. # [19:35] * Joins: Kai (chatzilla@72.254.102.95)
743. # [19:35] <Travis> paulc: Was some agreement on trying to mark the features that are not well liked...
744. # [19:35] <Travis> ... Not wanting to use the word "deprecated". Call for discussion.
745. # [19:36] <Travis> MM: Came up with a four-part classification for "to be avoided"
746. # [19:36] <Travis> paulc: Four classes for all features or just the ones we don't like.
747. # [19:37] <Travis> MM: Four categtories to mark all features (like, not like 1-3)
748. # [19:37] <Travis> MJS: Possible dimensions:is this a legacy feature not recommended
749. # [19:38] * Joins: tobyx (tobyx@217.110.76.78)
750. # [19:38] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.102.51) (Ping timeout)
751. # [19:38] <Travis> ... May be features in WebIDL that are highly experimental
752. # [19:38] <Travis> AWB: List is: (5 items)
753. # [19:38] <Travis> ... "Good parts"
754. # [19:39] * Quits: tobyx (tobyx@217.110.76.78) (Quit: tobyx)
755. # [19:39] <Travis> ... "De Jour for legacy support"
756. # [19:39] <Travis> ... "Deprecated" (like last one, but expectation of future removal)
757. # [19:40] <Travis> ... "ES5's appendix B (normative (if you implement, it must be implemented as such))
758. # [19:40] <Travis> ... "Things considered, but rejected and why?"
759. # [19:40] <Travis> MJS: Think it's worth documenting but not in WebIDL
760. # [19:41] <Travis> paulc: I call this "out of scope"
761. # [19:41] <Travis> AWB: I like "rejected" from IDL.
762. # [19:41] * Dashiva "Frequently Rejected Features"
763. # [19:41] <Travis> paulc: "rejected" category does not apply to anything in the WebIDL right now?
764. # [19:42] <Travis> MM: If there is some feature in the current WebIDL, by inspection, we could mark such a feature right now.
765. # [19:42] * Joins: samth (samth@72.254.60.67)
766. # [19:42] <Travis> AWB: Also, something in one browser but not all, that thing might be considered in WebIDL, but was rejected even though it had an implementation.
767. # [19:42] * Joins: shelleyp (shelleyp@69.155.29.71)
768. # [19:43] <Travis> paulc: Have we applied the 5 category taxonomy to the current WebIDL?
769. # [19:43] <Travis> AWB: Not yet.
770. # [19:43] * Quits: paulc (48fe642a@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
771. # [19:43] <Travis> MJS: Might be more useful to wait to do this until after we've recast the current WebIDL spec into ES5 parlance.
772. # [19:43] * Joins: drogersuk (David@72.254.63.248)
773. # [19:43] * Quits: tantek (tantek@72.254.84.209) (Quit: tantek)
774. # [19:44] <Travis> MJS: I think distinction between "Requred for legacy" and "Deprecated" is not really sufficiently different.
775. # [19:44] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169) (Quit: tlr)
776. # [19:44] <Travis> paulc: Agreement on 1) recast in ES5, then 2) apply taxonomy.
777. # [19:45] * Quits: shelleyp (shelleyp@69.155.29.71) (Quit: shelleyp)
778. # [19:45] <Travis> MM: Let's not be too ridgid about it.. but we should get both of them done.
779. # [19:45] * Joins: masinter (user@72.254.89.152)
780. # [19:46] <Travis> JO: Are there questions about what the semantics should be (currently are using internal hooks to ES specs)
781. # [19:46] <Travis> ... May want to get agreement in this room?
782. # [19:46] <Travis> BE: Use the list
783. # [19:47] <Travis> paulc: [recap main points]
784. # [19:48] <Travis> MM: Was a recent shift in WebIDL where some things moved from annotations into the main grammar
785. # [19:48] <Travis> ... Was intended [the grammer] to be the language independent semantics; yet some of those things didn't actually apply to Java...
786. # [19:49] <Travis> ... Should be careful to make the syntax more language independent
787. # [19:49] <Travis> MJS: Design Principle: Language independent should be in the core syntax, other things should be extended attributes.
788. # [19:49] <Travis> ... does this make sense Sam?
789. # [19:50] <Travis> weinig: It can be fuzzy depending on the language (some have getter/setters, other don't)
790. # [19:50] <Travis> Topic: Binary data in ECMAScript (15 min)
791. # [19:51] <Travis> MJS: Goes to the sketchpad
792. # [19:51] <Travis> ... Design goals were influenced by Web APIs that would like to use binary data.
793. # [19:51] <Travis> ... In one case the UA has data in an internal buffer
794. # [19:51] <Travis> ... Would like to achieve cross-thread transfer of data.
795. # [19:52] <Travis> ... Approaches both point to having an immutable data store (makes it easy to transfer handles safely without copying data)
796. # [19:52] <Travis> ... Some mutable tricks are possible but not necessarily thread-safe or performant.
797. # [19:52] <Travis> JO: Examples?
798. # [19:53] <Travis> MJS: XHR to retrieve binary data.
799. # [19:53] <Travis> ... Would be nice to have a shared buffer
800. # [19:53] <Travis> WH: What is needed over and above strings?
801. # [19:54] <Travis> MJS: 1st point: lack of conceptual clarity
802. # [19:54] <Travis> ... Binary data is a byte, others are unicode chars
803. # [19:54] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169)
804. # [19:54] <Travis> ... Would be nice to not have to raise that question.
805. # [19:54] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.102.51)
806. # [19:54] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 8220] New: Remove microdata <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0066.html>
807. # [19:54] <Travis> ... Also, not having to use a 16 bit sequence to represent octet data.
808. # [19:55] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169) (Quit: tlr)
809. # [19:55] <Travis> ... Also ability to get immutable data out.
810. # [19:55] <Travis> ... to base64 encode could be hard [clarification needed]
811. # [19:56] <Travis> ... Other design point in my proposal was to get to the bare-minimum set of functionality
812. # [19:56] <JonathanJ> rrsagent, draft minutes
813. # [19:56] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html JonathanJ
814. # [19:56] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 06 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
815. # [19:56] <Travis> ... Didn't want to have a cumbersome interface (e.g., with transcoding, hash computations, base64 encoding)
816. # [19:57] <Travis> ... Would like to leave that stuff out because we don't know what's needed yet.
817. # [19:57] * Joins: tH (Rob@82.4.89.172)
818. # [19:57] <dmcallis> is there a pointer to this oft-mentioned proposal?
819. # [19:57] <Travis> WH: I see base64 encoding as necessary.
820. # [19:57] <Travis> AWB: I like what you're suggesting--providing the right primitives and allowing libraries to extend.
821. # [19:58] <Travis> MJS: Most primitive conversion would be toUTF16 and back.
822. # [19:58] * Joins: dom (dom@128.30.52.169)
823. # [19:58] <Travis> MM: First rollout would allow libraries to use, then see what libraries find useful then roll those things back into the standard.
824. # [19:58] * Joins: tantek (tantek@72.254.84.209)
825. # [19:59] <Travis> WH: Must be careful--providing the wrong set of primitives could lead to bad performance problems...
826. # [19:59] <Travis> MJS: Given three design proposals, what problems are left (that I see)?
827. # [20:00] <Travis> ... Choosing the name (not trivial)
828. # [20:00] <Travis> ... want to stay away from names that include the specific underlying data store...
829. # [20:01] <Travis> MJS: If you think of these as a sequences, they are octet sequences (bytes)
830. # [20:01] <Travis> AWB: Some scenarios may consider these 16-bit floats, other as larger sets.
831. # [20:02] <Travis> OH: focus has been mostly on String/Binary
832. # [20:02] <Travis> ... WebGL defines byte array, int array, etc.
833. # [20:03] <Travis> ... Without the underlying data store, you have to use strings to transfer the data around.
834. # [20:03] <Travis> MJS: Second issue: Immutable vs. Mutable.
835. # [20:03] <Travis> ... Done via freeze() or via two types?
836. # [20:03] <Travis> ... preference is to have two types. Should have continued discussion on the list.
837. # [20:04] <Travis> ... Final issue, what operations are built in?
838. # [20:04] <Travis> ... Byte level read/write, read (immutable), memcopy
839. # [20:04] <Travis> ... Also see character transcoding, etc. that may be part of the initial set.
840. # [20:05] <Travis> ... Would like to be more strict in the initial release.
841. # [20:05] <Travis> WH: How would equality work?
842. # [20:05] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169)
843. # [20:06] <Travis> MM: Equality--are these primitive types or object types?
844. # [20:06] <Travis> ... If the data object is more like the string object, then it should be a value object (than a primitive type)
845. # [20:07] <Travis> paulc: [moving on to next topic]
846. # [20:07] <Travis> Topic: ECMAScript preventExtensions() and DOM objects
847. # [20:07] <Travis> OH: Brought up on the list before.
848. # [20:07] <Travis> ... DOM objects should not support this.
849. # [20:08] <Travis> ... If they do not support it, then they "cannot" support it (no partial support)
850. # [20:08] <Travis> MJS: Soley from a WebIDL interface, could mark it as supporting (or not) prevent extensions.
851. # [20:09] <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
852. # [20:09] <JonathanJ> rrsagent, draft minutes
853. # [20:09] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html JonathanJ
854. # [20:09] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 06 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
855. # [20:10] <fantasai> ?: We're not talking just about preventExtension, we're also talking about (?)
856. # [20:10] * annevk thinks he should scribe telcons less often
857. # [20:10] * annevk ... it obviously has bad side effects
858. # [20:10] <fantasai> ?: readonly doesn't imply immutable. The host can change it
859. # [20:10] <annevk> s/?/Mark Miller/
860. # [20:11] <fantasai> ??: On the readonly question, in my rough translation of WebIDL to ECMASCRIPT5, most of the DOM properites become accessors sot hat the changeability of the underlying data ...
861. # [20:11] <fantasai> ??: on principle, I would really rather see a clearly defined way to preventExtensions work across all ... and not restrict it to [?]
862. # [20:11] <fantasai> ??: Web developers expect to see a consistent view of the world
863. # [20:11] <annevk> s/??/Travis L/
864. # [20:12] <fantasai> MJS: You would have to have ECMASCRIPT objects prevent state changes completely unrelated to ECMASCRIPT
865. # [20:12] <annevk> s/??/Travis L/
866. # [20:12] <fantasai> ???: We would .. preventExtensions and prevent Freeze
867. # [20:12] <fantasai> Paul interrupts
868. # [20:12] * Quits: oliver (oliver@72.254.90.122) (Quit: oliver)
869. # [20:12] <rubys> s/???/Waldemar/
870. # [20:12] <fantasai> JasonO: I agre that it's better to have a language semantics that applies to all objects in the lang
871. # [20:13] * annevk didn't know that one, apart from affiliation :)
872. # [20:13] <fantasai> JasonO: I think it's possible, and the ECMAScript committee should take that on. DOM is one of our major usecases
873. # [20:13] <fantasai> JasonO: Freeze on an object may not prevent new prop from appearing on the obj, but it certainly can apply to properties added by script
874. # [20:13] <dsinger> q+
875. # [20:14] <fantasai> Waldemar: Part of what's freeze and friends do in ECMAScript is they ... which it throws, you can cache it. And you can do security analysis on it, if these things can change .. breaks
876. # [20:14] * Quits: drunknbass_work (aaron@71.107.253.243) (Ping timeout)
877. # [20:14] <annevk> dsinger, wrong room?
878. # [20:14] * annevk thought dsinger was in #video
879. # [20:14] <fantasai> Waldemar: We have additional issue swe have other issue.s For getters and setters ... what do these do if you call them something else ... consciously say that's not part fo the spec
880. # [20:15] <fantasai> Jason: I disagree that freeze by itself provides these invariants.
881. # [20:15] <fantasai> Jason: The ES5 spec says what freeze does. DOesn't say that there's an end-to-end variant that freeze causes to be true
882. # [20:15] <fantasai> disagreement
883. # [20:15] <fantasai> Jason: prototype vs itself
884. # [20:16] <fantasai> Jason: Given stat eo fDOM right now, calling reeze on dom obj, even if you call recusrsively on prot chain, it's not well-define
885. # [20:16] <fantasai> ?: It's well defined what the invariants are
886. # [20:16] <annevk> s/?/Mark Miller/
887. # [20:16] <fantasai> Jason: The behavior of getters and setters can depend on mutable state that's not visible anywhere else except on the object.
888. # [20:16] <fantasai> Jason: Calling it freeze if you don't know the impl of the getters and setters isn't predictable
889. # [20:16] <fantasai> MJS: ...
890. # [20:17] <fantasai> Waldemar: Freeze freezes the object. If an obj has getters and setters .. API. There asre still objects that can return different things
891. # [20:17] <fantasai> Waldemar: this is a non-issue
892. # [20:17] <fantasai> somebody says something
893. # [20:18] <fantasai> ??: The getter itself is the only thing that's guaranteed to be constant
894. # [20:18] <Travis> s/??/OH/
895. # [20:18] <fantasai> Mark: ... the local properties are unchanging
896. # [20:18] <fantasai> Mark: If the obj has getter bhavior that it chooses to describe as data behavior, it has the choice of either frezing its describe its bheavior or rejecting the attempt to freeze
897. # [20:18] <fantasai> Mark: If it accepts the attempt to freeze, then it can't describe as data prop
898. # [20:19] * Quits: yfukami (48fe6e7b@207.192.75.252) (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
899. # [20:19] <fantasai> Jason: I object that freeze freezes the state of the obj in a very general sense
900. # [20:19] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.102.51) (Ping timeout)
901. # [20:19] <fantasai> Allan: My inter of your points is that you're copying at different levels of abstraction
902. # [20:19] <fantasai> Allan: It's about the meta state
903. # [20:19] <fantasai> ...
904. # [20:20] <rubys> s/Allan/Allen Wirfs-Brock/
905. # [20:20] <fantasai> ??: If I have a nodelist w/ a linked property
906. # [20:20] <fantasai> ??: do I represent it as .. that's writeable, or do I expose as a getter
907. # [20:20] <fantasai> ?? ... guarantee quality of that getter.. may vary from one obj to another
908. # [20:20] * plh is now known as plh-salonA
909. # [20:20] <fantasai> Allan: I think that q falls into domain of ES binding. That's the decision you make when defining a lang binding
910. # [20:21] <fantasai> Allen: Do all prop with these charactersics behave this way
911. # [20:21] <annevk> s/??/Oliver/
912. # [20:21] <fantasai> Brendan: Do you have a problem with trying to propose a freeze that ... or .......
913. # [20:21] <fantasai> :/
914. # [20:21] <fantasai> ?: My op is that we take on the effort of ...
915. # [20:21] * Joins: drunknbass_work (aaron@71.107.253.243)
916. # [20:21] <fantasai> Brendan: Need to spec that if you freeze what happens
917. # [20:22] <fantasai> Brendan: .. netapi tells you about DOM properties
918. # [20:22] <fantasai> ?: I think that spec goes to web apps
919. # [20:22] <fantasai> ?: I believe those issues have to be addressed in the conversion
920. # [20:22] <fantasai> ?: I am satisfied with teh discussion
921. # [20:22] <Travis> s/?/Travis/
922. # [20:23] <rubys> s/teh/the/
923. # [20:23] <fantasai> ??: By defining how attributes in general work, whether they rep getter on the obj itself or on the prototype is something that's going to be intrinsic in converting to ES5. That concept wasn't in ES3, couldn't be desc in ES3. Once we have that tool we'll have a better understanding of interaction with these meta-apis wil lbe
924. # [20:23] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.102.51)
925. # [20:23] <fantasai> ??: Without this new desc ,.. part of defining new desc will be talking with browser impl about ..
926. # [20:23] <annevk> s/??/Sam/
927. # [20:23] <fantasai> ??: There may be downsides to impl attributes as getters and setters
928. # [20:23] <annevk> s/??/Sam/
929. # [20:23] <fantasai> Paul: Seem to have anchored plan w/ webidl
930. # [20:24] <Travis> scribe: Travis
931. # [20:24] <Travis> scribeNick: Travis
932. # [20:24] * fantasai can't scribe things she doesn't understand very well
933. # [20:24] <Travis> Topic: Differences in Policy
934. # [20:25] <Travis> JN: Secretary Genearl of ECMAScript should sit down with W3C contact and work out issues in IPR, other legal issues.
935. # [20:25] <Travis> JN: These are way outside of my pay grade.
936. # [20:25] <Travis> ... We wanted to point out that we have these issues before we work really closely.
937. # [20:26] <Travis> paulc: Are there any issues going on today that are upsetting?
938. # [20:26] <Travis> JN: No, no joint ventures today.
939. # [20:26] * Joins: jorendorff (jason@72.254.92.230)
940. # [20:26] <Travis> paulc: We do work, throw it over the fence, and this seems to work for now.
941. # [20:26] <Travis> AWB: Hasn't necessary been the working model up until today.
942. # [20:27] <Travis> ... In the past there was little to no communication between our groups.
943. # [20:27] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.102.51) (Client exited)
944. # [20:27] <Travis> paulc: Web developer expects to have symmetry
945. # [20:27] <Travis> AWB: Many of us are associated with both affiliations (TC39/W3C)
946. # [20:28] <Travis> PL: Thanks TC39 for accepting our invitiation to join.
947. # [20:28] <rubys> s/PL/PLH/
948. # [20:29] <Travis> ... We are a technical organization. We can hand off any/all documents needed (e.g., IPR)
949. # [20:29] <Travis> IS: One of the issues is the IPR policy. W3C IPR policy is very well known. Also should be royalty-free.
950. # [20:30] <Travis> ... ECMAScript has current IPR policy--will be gettting a new one very much the same as the old.
951. # [20:30] <Travis> ... going to royalty free.
952. # [20:30] <Travis> ... Intention is to do something that matches W3C policy
953. # [20:31] <Travis> ... May not need memoriandum of understanding.
954. # [20:31] <Travis> ... Current status is not to sign such a memoriandum.
955. # [20:31] <Travis> PLH: We offer the full spectrum of arrangements
956. # [20:32] <Travis> IS: ECMAScript can disclose its policies (are archived already)
957. # [20:32] <Travis> paulc: sounds like nothing further is needed (in this group) regarding IPR policy.
958. # [20:32] <annevk> plh-salonA, the "IPR book" is a printout of HTML5? :)
959. # [20:33] <Travis> JN: We have a discussion list (es-discuss) for all things "Harmony" (3 years out probably)
960. # [20:33] <Travis> ... All work is going on that list
961. # [20:33] <rubys> https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
962. # [20:33] <pimpbot> Title: es-discuss Info Page (at mail.mozilla.org)
963. # [20:33] <plh-salonA> annevk, yes :)
964. # [20:33] <annevk> ouch
965. # [20:33] <Travis> BE: Current work related is being cross-posted to public-script-coord
966. # [20:33] <plh-salonA> the printout is the html5 spoec as of Oct 9, 2009.
967. # [20:34] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.102.51)
968. # [20:34] <rubys> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-script-coord/
969. # [20:34] <pimpbot> Title: public-script-coord@w3.org Mail Archives (at lists.w3.org)
970. # [20:34] <plh-salonA> s/spoec/spec/
971. # [20:34] <Travis> ... public-script-coord is for info related to WebIDL binding issues, but exact lines of deliniation are murky.
972. # [20:34] <sylvaing> might want to add a new spec status: "Critical Mass"
973. # [20:34] <Travis> paulc: Should describe what lists are for what.
974. # [20:34] <Travis> MM: Binary discussion should move to es-discuss.
975. # [20:35] <Travis> MJS: Should go mostly to the es-discuss list. Not a lot of open issues in the scenarios/use cases.
976. # [20:35] <Travis> paulc: participation issues?
977. # [20:35] <JonathanJ> rrsagent, draft minutes
978. # [20:35] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html JonathanJ
979. # [20:35] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 06 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
980. # [20:35] * plh-salonA wonders if TC39 got a chance to talk with the internationalization folks
981. # [20:36] <Travis> JN: Where some members are not also in W3C, there are some pariticpation issues.
982. # [20:36] <Travis> ... personally, I stayed away from plenary day because I knew I couldn't get in.
983. # [20:36] <Travis> ... we have at least one other member that can't really participate.
984. # [20:37] <Travis> paulc: to be clear--is this because of the IPR policy of the organisation?
985. # [20:37] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.102.51) (Ping timeout)
986. # [20:37] <Travis> JN: Just concerned if we get into a relationship where we are jointly building a specification.
987. # [20:37] <Travis> paulc: can't imagine doing that with out a memoriandum of understanding.
988. # [20:38] <plh-salonA> Don Bruztman, Web3D
989. # [20:38] * Quits: Arron (arronei@72.254.102.226) (Ping timeout)
990. # [20:38] <Travis> DB: X3D graphics seems to have re-hashed some of these issues. Perhaps some of our learnings can be shared.
991. # [20:38] <Travis> paulc: Summary
992. # [20:39] <Travis> ... Agreed upon an oral plan: Recast WebIDL in ECAMScript 5 and in parallel, describe taxonomy.
993. # [20:39] <Travis> ... Also address issues of preventExtensions, etc.
994. # [20:39] <Travis> ... Lies mostly on WebIDL delivery and specifically on weinig.
995. # [20:40] <Travis> ... Binary data discussion to continue on es-discuss
996. # [20:40] <Travis> ... Regarding Policy issues, moving to joint work will require more formalism (current ad-hoc and mailing list coordination seems OK)
997. # [20:41] <Travis> ... So, what are a future plans for coordination?
998. # [20:41] <Travis> JN: TC39 meets every other month (F2F) mostly in the bay area.
999. # [20:42] <Travis> ... Try to get up to Redmond in July (it's nice there)
1000. # [20:42] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.102.51)
1001. # [20:42] * dom and the E in ECMA used to stand for European
1002. # [20:42] <Travis> ... Next meeting TC39 is next January, then every other month.
1003. # [20:42] <Travis> PLH: One point of information is that next TPAC is in November in Europe (location pending)
1004. # [20:43] <Travis> AVK: WebApps have some targeted meetings for specific topics.
1005. # [20:45] <Travis> I like F2F. Can we set something else up for next year (given that TPAC will be in Europe)?
1006. # [20:45] <Travis> paulc: I will leave the final decisions up to WebApps WG and TC39.
1007. # [20:46] <Travis> PLH: AC meeting in March may be an option. If the TC39 and WebApps wanted to meet around that time, we could arrange some extra rooms.
1008. # [20:47] <Travis> JN: Doesn't have to be in the bay area, but would like to keep the every-two-months heartbeat meeting if possible.
1009. # [20:47] <Travis> rubys: Plenty of companies in bay area that could host.
1010. # [20:48] * Joins: gsnedders_ (gsnedders@83.252.226.0)
1011. # [20:48] <Travis> paulc: I think we're done. Thank you all!
1012. # [20:48] * Quits: shiki (sokasaka@72.254.57.135) (Quit: shiki)
1013. # [20:48] * Quits: rubys (rubys@72.254.62.24) (Quit: Leaving.)
1014. # [20:49] <dmcallis> bye
1015. # [20:49] * Quits: jorendorff (jason@72.254.92.230) (Quit: jorendorff)
1016. # [20:49] * Quits: tross (48fe5bf3@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC)
1017. # [20:49] * Parts: soonho (soonho@72.254.89.147)
1018. # [20:49] * Quits: dmcallis (davemc@192.150.10.200) (Quit: dmcallis)
1019. # [20:49] <Travis> JN: Please send minutes to TC39
1020. # [20:49] * Quits: plh-salonA (plh@128.30.52.28) (Quit: always accept cookies)
1021. # [20:50] * Quits: annevk (opera@72.254.62.128) (Quit: annevk)
1022. # [20:51] * Quits: weinig (weinig@72.254.61.132) (Quit: weinig)
1023. # [20:51] * Quits: satoshi (satoshi_fu@72.254.100.15) (Ping timeout)
1024. # [20:51] * Quits: mjs (mjs@72.254.63.193) (Quit: mjs)
1025. # [20:51] * Quits: PIon (chatzilla@72.254.105.215) (Ping timeout)
1026. # [20:51] * ArtB is now known as ArtB_
1027. # [20:52] * Quits: samth (samth@72.254.60.67) (Ping timeout)
1028. # [20:52] * Quits: myakura (myakura@72.254.86.128) (Ping timeout)
1029. # [20:53] * Quits: marcin (marcin_@72.254.107.152) (Ping timeout)
1030. # [20:53] * Quits: sylvaing (sylvaing@72.254.108.58) (Ping timeout)
1031. # [20:55] * Quits: brutzman (cd9b41e2@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
1032. # [20:55] <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 8220] Remove microdata" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0068.html>
1033. # [20:55] * Quits: Travis (48fe525b@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
1034. # [20:55] * Quits: JonathanJ (hollobit@72.254.87.188) (Quit: JonathanJ)
1035. # [20:58] * Quits: TabAtkins (chatzilla@72.254.84.206) (Ping timeout)
1036. # [21:01] * Quits: cardona507 (carloscard@72.254.100.38) (Quit: cardona507)
1037. # [21:02] * Quits: Eliot_Graff (EGraff@72.254.88.87) (Quit: Hard work pays off in the future, laziness pays off now)
1038. # [21:03] * Quits: Kai (chatzilla@72.254.102.95) (Ping timeout)
1039. # [21:04] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.102.51) (Ping timeout)
1040. # [21:05] * Quits: dsinger (dsinger@72.254.101.235) (Quit: dsinger)
1041. # [21:05] * Quits: silvia (Adium@72.254.90.171) (Quit: Leaving.)
1042. # [21:06] * Quits: eric_carlson (eric_carls@72.254.98.150) (Quit: eric_carlson)
1043. # [21:06] * Quits: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217) (Quit: Laura)
1044. # [21:07] * Joins: eric_carlson (eric_carls@72.254.98.150)
1045. # [21:07] * Quits: mth (opera@72.254.58.170) (Quit: mth)
1046. # [21:09] * Joins: silvia (Adium@72.254.90.171)
1047. # [21:10] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169) (Quit: tlr)
1048. # [21:13] * Quits: drogersuk (David@72.254.63.248) (Ping timeout)
1049. # [21:13] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.60.236)
1050. # [21:13] * Quits: tantek (tantek@72.254.84.209) (Quit: tantek)
1051. # [21:13] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.60.236) (Client exited)
1052. # [21:14] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.60.236)
1053. # [21:14] * Quits: silvia (Adium@72.254.90.171) (Quit: Leaving.)
1054. # [21:15] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmithX@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Tomorrow to fresh woods, and pastures new.)
1055. # [21:16] * Joins: tantek (tantek@72.254.84.209)
1056. # [21:18] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.60.236) (Connection reset by peer)
1057. # [21:18] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.60.236)
1058. # [21:22] * Quits: tantek (tantek@72.254.84.209) (Quit: tantek)
1059. # [21:24] * Joins: J_Voracek (irchon@166.205.5.160)
1060. # [21:24] * Quits: J_Voracek (irchon@166.205.5.160) (Client exited)
1061. # [21:31] * Quits: eric_carlson (eric_carls@72.254.98.150) (Quit: eric_carlson)
1062. # [21:38] * Joins: silvia (Adium@72.254.90.171)
1063. # [21:39] * Quits: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
1064. # [21:40] * Quits: silvia (Adium@72.254.90.171) (Quit: Leaving.)
1065. # [21:47] * Quits: masinter (user@72.254.89.152) (Ping timeout)
1066. # [21:54] * Quits: DanC (connolly@72.254.102.131) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1067. # [21:55] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 8223] New: Won't this Doctype trigger Quirks Mode? <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0069.html>
1068. # [21:56] * Quits: noahm (noah_mende@72.254.95.177) (Ping timeout)
1069. # [21:56] * Quits: timbl (timbl@72.254.102.90) (Quit: timbl)
1070. # [21:56] * Joins: cardona507 (carloscard@209.172.114.240)
1071. # [21:57] * Joins: timbl_ (timbl@72.254.102.90)
1072. # [21:57] * Quits: timbl_ (timbl@72.254.102.90) (Quit: timbl_)
1073. # [22:02] <ArtB_> RRSAgent, pointer?
1074. # [22:02] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-irc#T21-02-07
1075. # [22:05] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.60.236) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1076. # [22:06] * Joins: rubys (rubys@72.254.62.24)
1077. # [22:08] * Quits: cardona507 (carloscard@209.172.114.240) (Connection reset by peer)
1078. # [22:08] * Joins: cardona507 (carloscard@209.172.114.240)
1079. # [22:10] * Joins: cardona507_ (carloscard@209.172.114.240)
1080. # [22:10] * Quits: cardona507 (carloscard@209.172.114.240) (Connection reset by peer)
1081. # [22:10] * cardona507_ is now known as cardona507
1082. # [22:10] * Quits: cardona507 (carloscard@209.172.114.240) (Quit: cardona507)
1083. # [22:11] * Joins: plh (plh@128.30.52.28)
1084. # [22:12] * Joins: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217)
1085. # [22:12] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169)
1086. # [22:13] * Joins: mjs (mjs@72.254.63.193)
1087. # [22:13] * Quits: mjs (mjs@72.254.63.193) (Connection reset by peer)
1088. # [22:14] * Joins: Kai (chatzilla@72.254.102.95)
1089. # [22:14] * Quits: Laura (lauracarls@131.212.98.217) (Quit: Laura)
1090. # [22:16] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
1091. # [22:25] * Joins: jorendorff (jason@72.254.92.230)
1092. # [22:27] * Joins: kohei (kohei@72.254.100.85)
1093. # [22:28] * Joins: timbl (timbl@72.254.102.90)
1094. # [22:29] * Quits: timbl (timbl@72.254.102.90) (Quit: timbl)
1095. # [22:30] * Joins: mjs (mjs@72.254.63.193)
1096. # [22:31] * Joins: sylvaing (sylvaing@72.254.108.58)
1097. # [22:31] * Joins: weinig (weinig@72.254.61.132)
1098. # [22:32] * Joins: oliver (oliver@72.254.90.122)
1099. # [22:34] * Joins: timbl (timbl@72.254.102.90)
1100. # [22:34] * Joins: annevk (opera@72.254.62.128)
1101. # [22:34] * Quits: rubys (rubys@72.254.62.24) (Quit: Leaving.)
1102. # [22:34] * Joins: Arron (arronei@72.254.102.226)
1103. # [22:34] * Joins: adrianba (adrianba@72.254.118.58)
1104. # [22:38] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmithX@mcclure.w3.org)
1105. # [22:38] * Joins: satoshi (satoshi_fu@72.254.100.15)
1106. # [22:38] * Joins: Eliot_Graff (EGraff@72.254.88.87)
1107. # [22:38] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@72.254.102.51)
1108. # [22:38] <MikeSmith> Topic: predefined Microdata vocabularies
1109. # [22:39] <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith
1110. # [22:39] <MikeSmith> tantek: [asks if anybody in the room has tried out Microdata]
1111. # [22:39] * Quits: oliver (oliver@72.254.90.122) (Quit: oliver)
1112. # [22:40] <MikeSmith> tc is tantek
1113. # [22:40] <MikeSmith> tc: so we are not discussing the Microdata syntax or processing during this session
1114. # [22:41] <MikeSmith> ... instead we're covering the related predefined vocabularies
1115. # [22:41] * Joins: TabAtkins (chatzilla@72.254.84.206)
1116. # [22:41] <MikeSmith> ... which are now in separate specs
1117. # [22:41] <MikeSmith> ... which Hixie has requested to be published as WDs
1118. # [22:41] * Joins: Kangchan (Kangchan@72.254.61.201)
1119. # [22:42] <MikeSmith> tc: those are: vcard, vevent, license
1120. # [22:42] <MikeSmith> tc: these are not new inventions
1121. # [22:43] <MikeSmith> ... vcard and ical came from IETF specs
1122. # [22:43] <MikeSmith> ... around 2004 I proposed creating hCard and hCalendar
1123. # [22:44] <MikeSmith> ... which defined a way for representing vcard and ical in HTML
1124. # [22:44] * Joins: mth (opera@72.254.58.170)
1125. # [22:44] <MikeSmith> ... (while the definitions of the semantics remain in the IETF specs)
1126. # [22:45] <MikeSmith> tc: so Hixie based Microdata's vcard and vevent on hcard and hCalendar
1127. # [22:46] <MikeSmith> tc: in the mean time, we have been working on making bug fixes to hCard and hCalendar
1128. # [22:47] <MikeSmith> tc: so the original vocabs remain the same, and the rest of this is based on those
1129. # [22:47] * Joins: silvia (Adium@72.254.90.171)
1130. # [22:47] * Joins: drogersuk (David@72.254.63.248)
1131. # [22:47] <MikeSmith> tc: but we had existing bugs, which Hixie replicated into Microdata's vcard and vevent
1132. # [22:48] <MikeSmith> ... so those bugs in the Microdata vocab specs not to be fixed to address those bugs
1133. # [22:48] <Hixie> that last line made no sense
1134. # [22:48] <Hixie> need to be fixed?
1135. # [22:48] <MikeSmith> Hixie, yep
1136. # [22:48] <Hixie> s/not to be/need to be/
1137. # [22:49] <MikeSmith> thx
1138. # [22:49] <Hixie> is there a uri to documentation on those bugs in the microdata vocabs?
1139. # [22:49] <Hixie> (bugs, or e-mails, or something?)
1140. # [22:50] <MikeSmith> tc: the bugs are documented on the Microformats side
1141. # [22:50] * Quits: silvia (Adium@72.254.90.171) (Quit: Leaving.)
1142. # [22:51] <Hixie> i'm in paticular interested in how they were ported over
1143. # [22:51] <MikeSmith> tc: the Microdata vocabs should reference the 1.01 versions of the hCard and hCalendar instead of duplicating them
1144. # [22:51] <Hixie> i didn't really look that closely at hcard when writing the vcard vocabulary, i was mostly just porting the RFC straight over
1145. # [22:51] <Hixie> so i'm surprised that i ported bugs over from hcard also
1146. # [22:52] <Hixie> unless they're in the vcard rfc too :-)
1147. # [22:52] <MikeSmith> tc: I am behind on an action item to provide feedback to the group about this
1148. # [22:52] <MikeSmith> Hixie, I think Julian said that the RFCs have been updated also
1149. # [22:52] <gsnedders_> They are currently being revised, IIRC
1150. # [22:53] <Hixie> oh certainly the rfcs are being updated yes
1151. # [22:53] <MikeSmith> Julian: Tantek, would you be interested in publishing the hcard and hcalendar specs as work products of the HTML WG?
1152. # [22:54] <MikeSmith> tc: I would be fine with that, but maybe others would object. I guess it's a question that needs to be taken to the group.
1153. # [22:54] <gsnedders_> Hixie: It's a questioned of updated/revised :)
1154. # [22:55] <gsnedders_> s//being/
1155. # [22:55] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@72.254.60.236)
1156. # [22:55] <Hixie> that's a very confusing regexp
1157. # [22:55] <MikeSmith> tc: perhaps the larger question is whether the W3C should be publishing spec for these types of vocabs at all
1158. # [22:55] <Hixie> and i expect it'll confuse rrsagent no end
1159. # [22:55] * Joins: Bert (bbos@mcclure.w3.org)
1160. # [22:56] <MikeSmith> tc: I personally am neutral on the question of whether these type of vocab specs should be at W3C or not
1161. # [22:56] <gsnedders_> it's a magic-exactly-what-I-mean-IRC-regexp :)
1162. # [22:56] <MikeSmith> Julian: the text that was in the HTML5 spec previously repeated or rephrased parts of the RFCs
1163. # [22:57] <MikeSmith> ... so my complaint was that if the wording of those RFCs was not adequate or was incorrect, then the feedback should go to the editors of those RFCs
1164. # [22:57] <MikeSmith> ... so the RFCs could be updated
1165. # [22:58] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
1166. # [22:58] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
1167. # [22:58] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 06 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
1168. # [22:58] <MikeSmith> tc: vcard 4 is a new version with a ton of new features
1169. # [22:58] <MikeSmith> ... it also has a number of bug fixes
1170. # [22:59] * Quits: drogersuk (David@72.254.63.248) (Quit: Leaving)
1171. # [22:59] <MikeSmith> tc: there are a couple of places where I diverged from the RFCs
1172. # [22:59] <MikeSmith> ... because the RFCs did not match the use cases
1173. # [23:00] <MikeSmith> tc: an example of a bug/deficiency in the RFCs where Web publishing differed from the schema restrictions in the iCalendar RFC
1174. # [23:00] <MikeSmith> ... specifically, the RFC restricts events to having only one URL associated with them
1175. # [23:01] <MikeSmith> ... and when Hixie made Microdata vEvent vocab, he replicated that same restriction that's out of sync with real-world use cases of Web publishing of events
1176. # [23:02] * Joins: noahm (noah_mende@72.254.95.177)
1177. # [23:02] <MikeSmith> ... whereas in hCalendar, we had made a change to allow an event to be associated with multiple URLs
1178. # [23:03] <Hixie> yeah i just followd the rfc exactly
1179. # [23:03] <Hixie> i'll fix it when the rfc is updated
1180. # [23:03] <Hixie> which i understand is happening
1181. # [23:03] <MikeSmith> tc: so, we are already tracking the RFCs and making decisions about where to diverge from the RFCs to bring them into closer alignment with real-world use cases
1182. # [23:04] <MikeSmith> tc: so I would like for the HTML WG to hold off on publishing the Microdata vocab drafts until the hCard and hCalendar specs get updated
1183. # [23:04] <MikeSmith> ... which will either be a matter of days or weeks
1184. # [23:05] <MikeSmith> ... I would like to get it done in days rather than in weeks [but it will depend on how much time I can free up]
1185. # [23:05] <MikeSmith> ... specifically, I'm talking about the 1.01 versions
1186. # [23:06] <MikeSmith> tc: I think the vCard 4 and iCal 5545 drafts are not enough yet to be depended on
1187. # [23:07] <MikeSmith> ... though iCal 5545 might be
1188. # [23:07] <MikeSmith> ... but, no offense to the vCard folks, but I think there's just too much new stuff in vCard 4 that it's too early to be depending on it
1189. # [23:08] * Joins: cardona507 (carloscard@72.254.100.38)
1190. # [23:08] <MikeSmith> Julian: so another part of the perspective here is just that in general the HTML WG should avoid stepping on other peoples' specs
1191. # [23:08] * Joins: tantek (tantek@72.254.84.209)
1192. # [23:09] <MikeSmith> Julian: I am worried about cases where other specs diverge from the RFCs
1193. # [23:10] <MikeSmith> tantek: so we do diverge, but we do so in a way that enables 1-to-1 conversion back to the format specified in the RFCs
1194. # [23:10] <MikeSmith> Julian: the revision of the iCal draft was published just two months ago
1195. # [23:11] <MikeSmith> Julian: the vCard draft is all well along -- can still submit bug reports about it, but it's perhaps just a matter of 6 months away from being published as an RFC
1196. # [23:12] <MikeSmith> Julian: my concern is that it's not clear that Hixie has had any communication with the vCard and vCalendar editors
1197. # [23:13] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/mdvcard/
1198. # [23:13] <pimpbot> Title: Microdata vocabularies: vCard (at dev.w3.org)
1199. # [23:13] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/mdvevent/
1200. # [23:13] <pimpbot> Title: Microdata vocabularies: vEvent (at dev.w3.org)
1201. # [23:13] <Hixie> the vcard microdata vocab is just a direct port of the rfc, so it's not clear what communication is necessary
1202. # [23:13] <Hixie> same with vevent
1203. # [23:13] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/mdwork/
1204. # [23:13] <pimpbot> Title: Microdata vocabularies: Licensing Works (at dev.w3.org)
1205. # [23:14] <MikeSmith> we move on to discussion of the "work" (license) vocab
1206. # [23:14] <Hixie> (i'll be over for <progress>/<meter> discussion in 15min)
1207. # [23:14] <Hixie> we're moving on to web storage here
1208. # [23:14] * Quits: weinig (weinig@72.254.61.132) (Quit: weinig)
1209. # [23:15] * Joins: silvia (Adium@72.254.90.171)
1210. # [23:15] <MikeSmith> tc: at a minimum, you have to define a processing model for cases where authors omit content which the spec says is required
1211. # [23:16] * Quits: mjs (mjs@72.254.63.193) (Quit: mjs)
1212. # [23:16] <MikeSmith> tc: in 2000-something, a CC RDF rel vocab was created
1213. # [23:17] * Joins: mjs (mjs@72.254.63.193)
1214. # [23:17] * Joins: weinig (weinig@72.254.61.132)
1215. # [23:17] <MikeSmith> ... then in 2004 a microformat rel-license mechanism was created, and subsequently a CC rel-license
1216. # [23:19] <MikeSmith> tc: I think that the state of things around license vocabs is not mature enough yet
1217. # [23:20] <MikeSmith> ... and I propose that the HTML WG should not at this point be publishing the works vocab spec at all
1218. # [23:21] <MikeSmith> Julian: usually the page that you read in a browser and the feed that you read in a feed reader are generated from the same source (by a CMS or whatever)
1219. # [23:21] <MikeSmith> ... so as far as the Microdata Atom spec, I'm not sure that there's any problem that it's really solving
1220. # [23:23] <MikeSmith> Julian: my proposal is either fix the language in the spec to say that if you don't have sufficient information in the document to be able to generate a valid/conformant Atom instance, then the spec should say, just don't.
1221. # [23:23] <MikeSmith> ... or the spec should just be dropped completely
1222. # [23:25] * Quits: cardona507 (carloscard@72.254.100.38) (Quit: cardona507)
1223. # [23:25] <MikeSmith> Julian: so one specific problem is that if you don't have IDs in the HTML source document, then you can't generate stable IDs in the Atom output
1224. # [23:26] * Quits: noahm (noah_mende@72.254.95.177) (Ping timeout)
1225. # [23:27] <MikeSmith> mjs: the Atom spec seems to only require that ID remains stable within the Atom document instance itself
1226. # [23:27] * Joins: cardona507 (carloscard@72.254.100.38)
1227. # [23:28] <MikeSmith> Julian: so the concern is not the case of generating the Atom output from exactly the same HTML document, but instead generating it from *almost* the same HTML document
1228. # [23:29] <MikeSmith> mjs: there does not actually seem to be any conformance constraint in the Atom spec that states the requirement you're expressing
1229. # [23:29] <MikeSmith> tc: there are numerous "must" requirements in the Atom spec that a problematic
1230. # [23:29] * Quits: satoshi (satoshi_fu@72.254.100.15) (Ping timeout)
1231. # [23:30] <MikeSmith> ... in hAtom we are going to make all those "must" fields optional (because there are many cases of existing content that lack them)
1232. # [23:30] <MikeSmith> ... and we will define an algorithm for generating content for them when the source lacks them
1233. # [23:31] <MikeSmith> annevk: the Atom spec only talks about Atom documents
1234. # [23:32] <MikeSmith> ... it does not express requirements for documents from which Atom documents might be generated
1235. # [23:33] * Joins: Bryan_Sullivan (Bryan@72.254.95.127)
1236. # [23:33] <MikeSmith> Hixie: the reason it's a "should" in HTML5 is that we know it's not always possible to output a valid Atom document
1237. # [23:33] * Quits: jorendorff (jason@72.254.92.230) (Quit: jorendorff)
1238. # [23:34] * Quits: Bryan_Sullivan (Bryan@72.254.95.127) (Quit: Leaving)
1239. # [23:34] <MikeSmith> Julian: so one way to address this is to remove the whole section about generating Atom output
1240. # [23:35] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I think it's good to have a solid mapping from HTML to Atom (though "solid" isn't exactly the best word)
1241. # [23:35] <MikeSmith> tc: but you don't really have a solid mapping
1242. # [23:35] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I'm happy to add text to the spec to put out the problem
1243. # [23:36] * Parts: dom (dom@128.30.52.169)
1244. # [23:36] <MikeSmith> Hixie: inclusion of this in the spec was driven by use cases that were expressed in the discussions that led up to Microdata
1245. # [23:36] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
1246. # [23:36] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/11/05-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
1247. # [23:36] <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG face-to-face in Santa Clara -- 05 Nov 2009 (at www.w3.org)
1248. # [23:37] <MikeSmith> mjs: there are two possible reasons why this doesn't need to be in the spec
1249. # [23:37] <MikeSmith> ... one is whether any other part of the spec relies on this section
1250. # [23:37] * Quits: Kai (chatzilla@72.254.102.95) (Ping timeout)
1251. # [23:37] <MikeSmith> ... second is that there is more than one possible way to generate Atom output from an HTML document
1252. # [23:38] <MikeSmith> ... and currently the spec makes it seem like there is only one valid way to do it
1253. # [23:38] <MikeSmith> ... so it seems like there may not be a strong reason for keeping it in the spec
1254. # [23:39] <MikeSmith> ... instead of having one or more specs layered on top of HTML5 spec (because there are multiple ways to generate Atom output from HTML docs)
1255. # [23:39] * Quits: silvia (Adium@72.254.90.171) (Quit: Leaving.)
1256. # [23:39] <MikeSmith> Hixie: my rationale for including it in the spec is that it addresses use cases that were expressed in discussions
1257. # [23:39] * Joins: satoshi (satoshi_fu@72.254.100.15)
1258. # [23:40] * Joins: eric_carlson (eric_carls@72.254.98.150)
1259. # [23:40] * Joins: silvia (Adium@72.254.90.171)
1260. # [23:41] <Julian> topic: progress/meter
1261. # [23:41] * Joins: PIon (chatzilla@72.254.105.215)
1262. # [23:41] <Julian> Hixie: fallback options
1263. # [23:42] <Julian> Hixie: problem with formatting of values
1264. # [23:42] <MikeSmith> i/progress/mjs: because it's targeted at a different conformance class than other conformance classes in the spec, it could just as well be published as a separate draft
1265. # [23:42] <Julian> like delimites after thousands
1266. # [23:43] * Quits: TabAtkins (chatzilla@72.254.84.206) (Connection reset by peer)
1267. # [23:43] <Julian> TC: may need require <number> element
1268. # [23:43] * Quits: gsnedders_ (gsnedders@83.252.226.0) (Quit: gsnedders_)
1269. # [23:44] <Julian> TC: isomorphic to time element
1270. # [23:44] <Julian> Hixie: progress has 6 numbers attached to it
1271. # [23:44] <Julian> mjs: is updated by script anyway
1272. # [23:45] <Julian> mjs: meter may be different, because there are cases for static use
1273. # [23:46] <Julian> adrian: worried about fallback breaking
1274. # [23:46] <Julian> adrian: testing will be costly
1275. # [23:47] <Julian> Hixie: consensus to remove fallback?
1276. # [23:47] * annevk sort of likes the fallback for simple cases
1277. # [23:47] <Julian> TC: <number> would be useful in many microformats
1278. # [23:47] * annevk i.e. 42 out of 100
1279. # [23:47] <Julian> TC: is the one missing type element
1280. # [23:48] <Julian> Hixie: wanted to do <time> first
1281. # [23:49] <Julian> Hixie: <time> can come without content, and then the UA is required to generate a localized
1282. # [23:49] <Julian> version
1283. # [23:49] * Quits: eric_carlson (eric_carls@72.254.98.150) (Quit: eric_carlson)
1284. # [23:50] * Joins: TabAtkins (chatzilla@72.254.84.206)
1285. # [23:51] * Julian stops scribing
1286. # [23:51] <annevk> time { content:local-time() }
1287. # [23:51] <annevk> (or something like that)
1288. # [23:51] * Joins: eric_carlson (eric_carls@72.254.98.150)
1289. # [23:52] <Julian> there seems to be consensus in the room not to have "magic fallback"
1290. # [23:53] * Quits: adrianba (adrianba@72.254.118.58) (Ping timeout)
1291. # [23:53] * Quits: eric_carlson (eric_carls@72.254.98.150) (Quit: eric_carlson)
1292. # [23:54] * Quits: silvia (Adium@72.254.90.171) (Quit: Leaving.)
1293. # [23:54] * Quits: weinig (weinig@72.254.61.132) (Quit: weinig)
1294. # [23:55] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 8225] New: Make it clear that the Atom generation section is not the only such algorithm (e.g. hAtom is fine too). <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0071.html> ** [Bug 8224] New: Mention that it's possible for the Atom section to generate invalid Atom if there's not enough data (e.g. missing authors). <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0070.html>
1295. # [23:57] * Joins: noahm (noah_mende@12.43.172.10)
1296. # [23:58] * Quits: kohei (kohei@72.254.100.85) (Quit: Computer goes to sleep!)
1297. # Session Close: Sat Nov 07 00:00:00 2009

The end :)