/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2009-11-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Nov 18 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  17. # [06:17] <CIA-1> v.nu-syntax: sideshowbarker * r484 /trunk/non-schema/java/src/org/whattf/checker/schematronequiv/Assertions.java:
  18. # [06:17] <CIA-1> v.nu-syntax: per discussion with Henri, for checking obsolete attributes, use binarySearch on array rather than asList (b=488)
  19. # [06:17] <CIA-1> v.nu-syntax: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=488
  20. # [06:17] <pimpbot> Title: Bug 488 add obsolete attributes to assertions checking (at bugzilla.validator.nu)
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  22. # [06:57] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 8328] kljhklhlkhj <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0159.html>
  23. # [07:27] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 8238] Add support for X3D <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0160.html>
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  25. # [07:40] <CIA-1> v.nu-syntax: sideshowbarker * r485 /trunk/relaxng/assertions.sch:
  26. # [07:40] <CIA-1> v.nu-syntax: added checking for all obsolete attributes to assertions.sh (schematron) file (b=488)
  27. # [07:40] <CIA-1> v.nu-syntax: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=488
  28. # [07:40] <pimpbot> Title: Bug 488 add obsolete attributes to assertions checking (at bugzilla.validator.nu)
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  30. # [08:25] <CIA-1> v.nu-syntax: sideshowbarker * r486 /trunk/non-schema/java/src/org/whattf/checker/schematronequiv/Assertions.java: fixed a dumb mistake that caused obsolete-attribute checking to fail for many cases
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  41. # [10:39] <CIA-1> v.nu-validator: sideshowbarker * r328 /trunk/schema/legacy/legacy.rnc: added some more obsolete attributes based on audit of obsolete-attributes list in the spec (and thanks to Simon)
  42. # [10:39] <CIA-1> v.nu-validator: sideshowbarker * r329 /trunk/schema/legacy/legacy.rnc: make input/@usemap valid on only for input/@type=image case (thanks to Simon)
  43. # [10:40] <CIA-1> v.nu-syntax: sideshowbarker * r487 /trunk/relaxng/embed.rnc: revert unnecessary additions I made to name-class list in embed.rnc
  44. # [10:40] <CIA-1> v.nu-syntax: sideshowbarker * r488 /trunk/ (2 files in 2 dirs): added some more obsolete attributes based on audit of obsolete-attributes list in the spec (and thanks to Simon)
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  50. # [12:08] <CIA-1> v.nu-validator: sideshowbarker * r330 /trunk/schema/legacy/legacy.rnc: legacy.rnc: added align attribute to a bunch of input element patterns, plus add type to oli attribute pattern (thanks Simon)
  51. # [12:10] <CIA-1> v.nu-syntax: sideshowbarker * r489 /trunk/non-schema/java/src/org/whattf/checker/schematronequiv/Assertions.java: corrected handling of obsolete-attribute reporting for usemap and type attributes
  52. # [12:10] <CIA-1> v.nu-syntax: sideshowbarker * r490 /trunk/non-schema/java/src/org/whattf/checker/schematronequiv/Assertions.java: changed obsolete-attribute handling for type and usemap again
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  56. # [12:30] <MikeSmith> @bug 8329?
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  58. # [12:30] <pimpbot> MikeSmith: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8329 mike@w3.org, P2, NEW, should object/@code be omitted from list of obsolete attributes?
  59. # [12:30] <Philip> Pink text should be obsolete
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  61. # [12:33] <jgraham> Good job that's light purple then
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  63. # [12:34] <Philip> Pink is just light purple
  64. # [12:40] <jgraham> Pink is light red
  65. # [12:41] <jgraham> Purple is blue red
  66. # [12:43] <Philip> The text was magenta and Wikipedia says "Magenta is a ...pink color"
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  70. # [12:58] <CIA-1> v.nu-syntax: sideshowbarker * r491 /trunk/non-schema/java/src/org/whattf/checker/schematronequiv/Assertions.java: made a further tweak to obsolete-attribute reporting of param/@type
  71. # [12:59] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 8238] Add support for X3D <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0164.html> ** "[Bug 8329] should object/@code be omitted from list of obsolete attributes?" (2 messages in thread) <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0163.html> ** [Bug 8329] New: should object/@code be omitted from list of obsolete attributes? <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009
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  84. # [14:59] <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 8330] New: object tag requirements language confusing <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0166.html> ** [Bug 7920] media queries ref <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Nov/0165.html>
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  86. # [15:11] <CIA-1> v.nu-syntax: sideshowbarker * r492 /trunk/relaxng/assertions.sch: assertions.sch; fixed the obsolete-attribute reporting for the type attribute
  87. # [15:30] <Lachy> Julian, what do you mean when you say you don't support #1? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Nov/0429.html Do you just disagree as a matter of principle, or are you trying to deny the existence of use cases and applications for non-draconian error handling?
  88. # [15:30] <pimpbot> Title: Re: XML namespaces on the Web from Julian Reschke on 2009-11-18 (public-html@w3.org from November 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
  89. # [15:33] <Julian> Lachy, I do not believe that there are sufficient use cases for non-draconian handling of XML. I'm aware this is a minority opinion, though. Just do not claim that there's universal consensus that this is needed.
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  93. # [15:36] <gsnedders> Julian: Do you think feed readers should use different parsers for RSS and Atom?
  94. # [15:36] <Lachy> believing there are insufficient seems to be different from saying there are none. So I don't understand how you can disagree with the statement, while still effectively admitting that there is at least 1 use case, regardless of how significant it may be
  95. # [15:38] <Lachy> Julian, so, let's break this down a bit further, so I can try and understand where your coming from...
  96. # [15:38] <Lachy> Do you agree that there are a number of people with use cases for non-draconian error handling in XML?
  97. # [15:38] <Lachy> Do you believe any of those use cases are valid?
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  99. # [15:39] <Julian> gsnedders, I wish nobody had to parse RSS at all
  100. # [15:39] <Julian> gsnedders, but as long both are used, I'd prefer Atom parsing to happen with XML parsers only (- the RFC3023 aspect)
  101. # [15:40] <Lachy> Julian, given that support for RSS is required in practice, how should implementations parse it? With strict XML parsers, or using lax parsers of some kind?
  102. # [15:40] <gsnedders> Julian: Even that is unrealisitc (due to what I posted on www-archive)
  103. # [15:40] <hsivonen> Julian: are you using your IETF contacts to get RFC 3023 fixed?
  104. # [15:40] <Julian> gsnedders, that's what multiple consumers already do (as noted by Sam)
  105. # [15:41] <gsnedders> Julian: What consumers require stuff to have no invalid byte sequences?
  106. # [15:41] <Julian> gsnedders, RSS Bandirt for instance (for Atom)
  107. # [15:41] <gsnedders> (Ah, he listed RSS Bandit as well)
  108. # [15:41] <gsnedders> (MS's has almost no marketshare)
  109. # [15:41] <Julian> I think the same is the case fot the feed parser in Windows
  110. # [15:41] <gsnedders> Yeah
  111. # [15:42] <Julian> I happen to use RSS-Bandit, and I just checked; that's why I'm mentioning it
  112. # [15:42] <jgraham> Julian: FWIW your email made no sense to me. I don't see how you can "support: (or not) a statement of fact. You can debate its truth of course
  113. # [15:42] * gsnedders doesn't have a simple quick way to test that right now, but he thinks, from when he last looked into this, they allowed invalid byte sequences
  114. # [15:42] <jgraham> In this case a proof by example should be enough to convince you that "here are applications that have the need and/or desire to implement non-draconian error recovery"
  115. # [15:43] <jgraham> *there
  116. # [15:43] <Julian> gsnedders, I just checked the feeds with XML failures, and one of these was Dominique's, and he just fixed it.
  117. # [15:43] <gsnedders> Julian: What sorts of failures?
  118. # [15:43] <jgraham> e.g. Universal feed parser, gecko feed parser
  119. # [15:44] <Julian> gsnedders, those that RSS bandit labels as such
  120. # [15:44] <jgraham> These applications clearly desire to implement non-draconian error handling since they go out of their way to do so
  121. # [15:44] <Julian> jgraham, I agree that there are applications doing this. I just think they shouldn't.
  122. # [15:44] <hsivonen> jgraham: Gecko's feed parser accepting bad byte sequences is a side effect of an accidental bug in XML parsing in Gecko in general
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  124. # [15:45] <hsivonen> Safari gets away with some stuff by using a different parser for browsing context-loaded XML and feeds
  125. # [15:45] <Lachy> Julian, ok, so you seem to be disagreeing as a matter of principle only, whereas the statement you disagreed with was more a statement of fact about reality, regardless of personal principles
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  127. # [15:45] <jgraham> hsivonen: (someone told me it fixed more than that but maybe I misunderstood)
  128. # [15:46] <gsnedders> Julian: http://stuff.gsnedders.com/invalidbyte.atom --- can you try that?
  129. # [15:46] <pimpbot> Title: Example FeedAtom-Powered Robots Run Amok (at stuff.gsnedders.com)
  130. # [15:46] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I thought feeds were now special cased to still have that bug
  131. # [15:46] <jgraham> Julian: Right. Perhaps you could clarify on list that you are merely disapproving, not denying
  132. # [15:47] <hsivonen> glancing at public-html, it seems I should dig up one of my rebuttals from my reusable portfolio of XML argument rebuttals
  133. # [15:49] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Ah, it does seem to still fail in Minefield. I thought it had been special cased for feeds.
  134. # [15:51] * Mike^Smoke is now known as MikeSmith
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  138. # [16:02] <hsivonen> lots of Namespace action these days: http://www.w3.org/QA/2009/11/default_prefix_declaration.html
  139. # [16:02] <pimpbot> Title: Default Prefix Declaration - W3C Blog (at www.w3.org)
  140. # [16:09] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.169) (Quit: tlr)
  141. # [16:11] <Philip> "1. Syntactic complexity. 2. API complexity. Of these, the first is arguably the more significant, because the number of authors exceeds the number of developers by a large margin." ... "Authors are used to [prefixes]: For example XSLT stylesheets and W3C XML Schema documents almost always use explicit prefixes extensively"
  142. # [16:12] <Philip> It seems kind of backwards to say the (DOM) API is only used by developers and isn't worth addressing, whereas XSLT/Schema are used by authors and are an important consideration
  143. # [16:12] <Dashiva> And the "web case" for XSLT doesn't use prefixes either
  144. # [16:13] <Philip> Yes it does, for <xsl:*> elements
  145. # [16:13] <Julian> it doesn't?
  146. # [16:13] <Philip> like in http://www.w3schools.com/XSL/xsl_templates.asp
  147. # [16:13] <pimpbot> Title: XSLT Element (at www.w3schools.com)
  148. # [16:14] <Dashiva> Philip: Well, if you go beyond using it on regular documents, yes
  149. # [16:15] <Julian> dashiva, what do you mean by "regular documents"`?
  150. # [16:15] <Dashiva> (X)HTML
  151. # [16:16] <jgraham> XSLT isn't a particularly populat templating language in the grand scheme of things
  152. # [16:17] <Julian> Dashiva, you don't need prefixes for the result elements, but in that case you'll have to prefix the elements in the XSLT namespace, and quite likely you'll also need prefixes to identify source elements in XPath expressions
  153. # [16:19] <Dashiva> Well, if you're working on a document and not a XSL stylesheet, why would there be XSLT elements in your expression?
  154. # [16:21] <Julian> Dashiva, is that the "web case" you are talking of?
  155. # [16:21] <Dashiva> "Regular documents", yes
  156. # [16:25] <Julian> so how is the "web case" different from other XSLT uses cases? Me confused.
  157. # [16:25] <Dashiva> Because you don't need prefixes when dealing only with HTML elements in your expressions
  158. # [16:26] <Julian> whether you need prefixes depends mainly on the document you're transforming, not the one you're generating
  159. # [16:27] <Julian> and I'm also not sure what this has to do with "the web case". Did you mean "the HTML case" then?
  160. # [16:30] <Dashiva> Indeed
  161. # [16:31] <Philip> HTML = web = internet, obviously
  162. # [16:31] <Dashiva> Well, that's overdoing it a bit. But a large part. :)
  163. # [16:40] <CIA-1> v.nu-syntax: sideshowbarker * r493 /trunk/non-schema/java/src/org/whattf/checker/schematronequiv/Assertions.java: include element name in error reports for obsolete attributes (thanks Simon)
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  165. # [16:48] <Julian> data point: RSS Bandit reported to broken feeds (XML-wise), and both have been fixed within 60 minutes.
  166. # [16:48] <Julian> (after complaining to the authors)
  167. # [16:49] * Philip wonders how many users gave up after seeing it was broken, before anyone complained to the authors
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  169. # [16:50] <Julian> most
  170. # [16:50] <Julian> but once they are fixed they will show up again in the feed reader, right?
  171. # [16:51] <Philip> Hmm, what's the markup for linking to Atom feeds?
  172. # [16:53] <Philip> <link rel=feed type=application/atom+xml> or something?
  173. # [16:53] <Philip> Um
  174. # [16:53] <Philip> s/feed/alternate/
  175. # [16:53] <Julian> yes, that's what I use (alternate + application/atom+xml)
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  177. # [17:07] <Philip> Hmph, lots of people write <link rel=”shortcut icon” href=”...” /> and my URI resolver throws an exception :-(
  178. # [18:11] * Disconnected
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  180. # [18:12] * Rejoined channel #html-wg
  181. # [18:12] * Topic is 'Pursuing conformance solutions for the N-body gravitational system known as "the Web", and in general, collectively performing various acts of unparalleled hubris (This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/)'
  182. # [18:12] * Set by MikeSmith on Thu Jun 18 06:02:08
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  184. # [18:16] <Philip> http://philip.html5.org/data/atom-parse-errors.txt
  185. # [18:18] <Philip> Quite a few Mediawiki errors, it looks like
  186. # [18:20] <Lachy> "The list of feeds comes from <link type="application/xhtml+xml" href="..."> links in" - shouldn't that say application/atom+xml ?
  187. # [18:21] <Lachy> and the same later on in that paragraph?
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  189. # [18:21] <Philip> Um... Yes
  190. # [18:22] * Philip will fix it when he uploads again
  191. # [18:24] <Julian> thanks for the data
  192. # [18:24] <Julian> so ~15 out of 500?
  193. # [18:25] <Philip> If you wait a few minutes, I'll tell you out of 1000 :-)
  194. # [18:25] <Philip> which is a much rounder number
  195. # [18:25] <Julian> I can do 15/500 * 100
  196. # [18:25] <Julian> wait
  197. # [18:25] <Philip> Also there's a wider range of errors in these extra ones
  198. # [18:25] <Julian> 3%
  199. # [18:26] <Julian> Ah very good
  200. # [18:26] <Philip> <link rel='alternate' href='http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=museum-l;ab9e34ae.0911c' title='Museum education research &amp;amp; evaluation - What's up? '/>
  201. # [18:26] <pimpbot> Title: LISTSERV 16.0 - Archives - Error (at home.ease.lsoft.com)
  202. # [18:26] <Philip> <logo><a href="http://es.tinypic.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i40.tinypic.com/2vsk94m.p</logo>
  203. # [18:26] <Philip> (It's the "What's" in the first one)
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  206. # [18:29] <Philip> You know, I really ought to have used a parallel downloader
  207. # [18:31] <Philip> "Shandara Grift, Lord Grift�s eldest daughter, has embarked on a quest of redemption to right her wrongs in the sacking of Tricaster. Rumors of her demise abound, but now word comes that she is in need of aid deep in the Gnarley Forest. Are you willing to risk the dangers of the Gnarley Forest to aid one who has failed the City of Sails in the past? And if you do, will it matter?"
  208. # [18:31] <Philip> Yeah, that forest is totally gnarley!
  209. # [18:37] <Philip> http://philip.html5.org/data/atom-parse-errors.txt - now with more data
  210. # [18:37] <Philip> with 26 errors out of 1000
  211. # [18:37] <Philip> if I'm counting right
  212. # [18:41] <Philip> (Also, obviously there's lots of bias in the sample and it's not biased towards interesting actively-maintained feeds that anyone cares about etc)
  213. # [18:42] <Philip> I like how http://www.wirkenblog.com/feed/atom/ is broken because a spammer hacked the blog
  214. # [18:42] <pimpbot> Title: Wirken Photography Blog (at www.wirkenblog.com)
  215. # [18:45] <Julian> is it possible to get a list of popular feeds in a parseable format? such as from technorati?
  216. # [18:51] <Philip> They have a list of top blogs but I don't see an obvious list of feeds
  217. # [18:52] <Philip> and Technorati is too trendy and blogospherical for me to understand what it does or is
  218. # [18:54] <gsnedders> Julian: There's some site that has it in a variety of formats, mostly XML, and mostly not well-formed
  219. # [18:54] <gsnedders> http://www.syndic8.com/xml.php
  220. # [18:54] <pimpbot> Title: Syndic8.com - XML (at www.syndic8.com)
  221. # [18:55] <gsnedders> Heavy bias towards English sites, though
  222. # [18:55] <gsnedders> It also contains quite a bit of duplicates
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The end :)