/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2012-04-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Apr 12 00:00:01 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  45. # [05:25] <CIA-1> validator: Michael[tm] Smith <mike@w3.org> * d6e8991f4c34 r435 validator/schema/svg11/svg-font.rnc:
  46. # [05:25] <CIA-1> validator: Make <svg><font> not cause NullPointerException.
  47. # [05:25] <CIA-1> validator: b=917
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  68. # [08:34] <nesta_> good day! :)
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  127. # [17:06] <MikeSmith> issue-189?
  128. # [17:06] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-189
  129. # [17:06] <trackbot> ISSUE-189 -- Prefix convention needs to be coordinated with IETF -- open
  130. # [17:06] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/189
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  134. # [17:19] <hober> MikeSmith: thanks for that email re: ISSUE-189
  135. # [17:19] <MikeSmith> yup
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  157. # [18:06] <glenn> zakim, who's here?
  158. # [18:06] <Zakim> sorry, glenn, I don't know what conference this is
  159. # [18:06] <Zakim> On IRC I see rubys, Clarke, paulc, lar_zzz, hober, vimeo_joe, glenn, hober2, miketaylr, davidb, ArtB, plh, myakura, tH, icaaq, Jedi, nonge_, drublic, tantek, rniwa, [tm],
  160. # [18:06] <Zakim> ... MikeSmith, logbot, arronei, kennyluck, gsnedders, pingo, karl, danielfilho, gavin, krijnh, ed, paul___irish, RRSAgent, johndrinkwater, shepazu, hiro, hsivonen, Hixie, lgombos,
  161. # [18:06] <Zakim> ... heycam|away, Dashiva, rektide, Philip, trackbot, inimino, jmb, CIA-1, jgraham
  162. # [18:06] <glenn> zakim, this is html_wg
  163. # [18:06] <Zakim> ok, glenn; that matches HTML_WG()12:00PM
  164. # [18:06] <tantek> greetings
  165. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
  166. # [18:06] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
  167. # [18:06] <Zakim> +Mike
  168. # [18:06] <glenn> zakim, who's here?
  169. # [18:06] <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P1, ??P7 (muted), Mike (muted)
  170. # [18:06] <Zakim> On IRC I see rubys, Clarke, paulc, lar_zzz, hober, vimeo_joe, glenn, hober2, miketaylr, davidb, ArtB, plh, myakura, tH, icaaq, Jedi, nonge_, drublic, tantek, rniwa, [tm],
  171. # [18:06] <MikeSmith> tantek, hola
  172. # [18:06] <tantek> scribe, I'm only on IRC for this meeting
  173. # [18:06] <Zakim> ... MikeSmith, logbot, arronei, kennyluck, gsnedders, pingo, karl, danielfilho, gavin, krijnh, ed, paul___irish, RRSAgent, johndrinkwater, shepazu, hiro, hsivonen, Hixie, lgombos,
  174. # [18:06] <tantek> hi MikeSmith
  175. # [18:06] <glenn> zakim, ??p7 is glenn
  176. # [18:06] <Zakim> ... heycam|away, Dashiva, rektide, Philip, trackbot, inimino, jmb, CIA-1, jgraham
  177. # [18:06] <Zakim> +glenn; got it
  178. # [18:07] <Clarke> zakim, ??P1 is me
  179. # [18:07] <Zakim> +Clarke; got it
  180. # [18:07] * Joins: eliot (eliot@131.107.0.110)
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  183. # [18:07] <Zakim> +Sam
  184. # [18:08] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  185. # [18:08] <eliot> zakim, Microsoft is me
  186. # [18:08] <Zakim> +eliot; got it
  187. # [18:08] <Zakim> +[Apple]
  188. # [18:08] <hober> Zakim, Apple has me
  189. # [18:08] <Zakim> +hober; got it
  190. # [18:08] * Joins: adrianba (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  191. # [18:08] <paulc> havng trouble calling in
  192. # [18:09] * Joins: MFoladare (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
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  194. # [18:09] * hober it took me a couple of tries
  195. # [18:09] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  196. # [18:09] <paulc> zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
  197. # [18:09] <Zakim> +paulc; got it
  198. # [18:09] <rubys> chair: paulc
  199. # [18:09] <Zakim> +Radhika_Roy
  200. # [18:09] <rubys> scribenick: rubys
  201. # [18:09] <Zakim> +KevinStreeter
  202. # [18:10] <Zakim> + +49.251.280.aaaa
  203. # [18:10] <rubys> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2012AprJun/0004.html
  204. # [18:10] <paulc> zakim, who is on the call?
  205. # [18:10] <Zakim> On the phone I see Clarke, glenn (muted), Mike, Sam, eliot, [Apple], [Microsoft], Radhika_Roy, KevinStreeter, +49.251.280.aaaa
  206. # [18:10] <Zakim> [Apple] has hober
  207. # [18:10] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has paulc
  208. # [18:10] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
  209. # [18:10] <adrianba> zakim, [Microsoft.a] is me
  210. # [18:10] <Zakim> +adrianba; got it
  211. # [18:10] <Julian> Zakim, +49.251.280.aaaa is me
  212. # [18:10] <Zakim> +Julian; got it
  213. # [18:10] <Julian> Zakim, mute me
  214. # [18:10] <Zakim> Julian should now be muted
  215. # [18:11] <rubys> topic: ACTION items due by Thursday, April 12
  216. # [18:11] <rubys> paulc: there are none
  217. # [18:11] <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer
  218. # [18:11] <rubys> topic: New Issues This Week
  219. # [18:11] <rubys> paulc: there are no new issues, and there still is one tracker request
  220. # [18:11] <rubys> topic: Items Closed Last Week
  221. # [18:11] <rubys> issue-194?
  222. # [18:11] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-194
  223. # [18:11] <trackbot> ISSUE-194 -- Provide a mechanism for associating a full transcript with an audio or video element. -- open
  224. # [18:11] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/194
  225. # [18:12] <rubys> paulc: we have two proposals in hand, and the chairs are now due to review those
  226. # [18:12] * hiro is now known as hiro_away
  227. # [18:12] <rubys> issue-148?
  228. # [18:12] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-148
  229. # [18:12] <trackbot> ISSUE-148 -- Algorithm for detecting the charset="" parameter -- closed
  230. # [18:12] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/148
  231. # [18:12] <rubys> paulc: survey closed on April 6, Sam temporarily reopened it to allow a late comment, and there still is some dialog going on
  232. # [18:12] <paulc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0051.html
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  234. # [18:13] <rubys> paulc: the chairs will have to decide how to handle this message; we may reopen the survey temporarily to allow this to be added
  235. # [18:13] <rubys> paulc: any comments?
  236. # [18:13] <rubys> topic: Items Closing This Week
  237. # [18:13] <rubys> issue-184?
  238. # [18:13] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-184
  239. # [18:13] <trackbot> ISSUE-184 -- Add a data element -- open
  240. # [18:13] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/184
  241. # [18:13] <Zakim> +Juhahi
  242. # [18:13] <rubys> paulc: CfC closed last night
  243. # [18:14] <rubys> paulc: I don't see any objections
  244. # [18:14] <rubys> paulc: I'm expecting that a decision will be issued fairly quickly
  245. # [18:14] <rubys> issue-198?
  246. # [18:14] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-198
  247. # [18:14] <trackbot> ISSUE-198 -- Ensure innerHTML and related APIs are subject to the W3C patent policy -- open
  248. # [18:14] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/198
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  250. # [18:15] <rubys> paulc: there has been some debate. The chairs may reissue the CfC
  251. # [18:15] <rubys> issue-201?
  252. # [18:15] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-201
  253. # [18:15] <trackbot> ISSUE-201 -- Provide canvas location and hit testing capability to fallback content -- open
  254. # [18:15] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/201
  255. # [18:15] <rubys> paulc: closed yesterday, we received the counter proposals; the chairs will hold off any actions until the F2F in May
  256. # [18:16] <rubys> paulc: this was a request from the a11y TF, and is a reasonable request
  257. # [18:16] <rubys> issue-183?
  258. # [18:16] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-183
  259. # [18:16] <trackbot> ISSUE-183 -- Enhance and simplify the time element -- open
  260. # [18:16] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/183
  261. # [18:16] <rubys> paulc: closes tomorrow
  262. # [18:17] <rubys> paulc: are any of the authors on the call?
  263. # [18:17] <Zakim> +??P14
  264. # [18:17] * Joins: janina (janina@69.140.165.18)
  265. # [18:18] <rubys> rubys: Cameron posted his change recently
  266. # [18:18] <rubys> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0065.html
  267. # [18:18] <paulc> http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Cjones/ISSUE-183
  268. # [18:18] <janina> zakim, who's on the phone?
  269. # [18:18] <Zakim> On the phone I see Clarke, glenn (muted), Mike, Sam, eliot, [Apple], [Microsoft], Radhika_Roy, KevinStreeter, Julian (muted), adrianba, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Juhahi, ??P14
  270. # [18:18] <Zakim> [Apple] has hober
  271. # [18:18] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has paulc
  272. # [18:18] <rubys> paulc: that would put this back into the chairs queue to reevaluate
  273. # [18:18] <janina> zakim, ??P14 is Janina
  274. # [18:18] <Zakim> +Janina; got it
  275. # [18:18] <rubys> topic: Items Closing Next Week
  276. # [18:18] <rubys> issue-204?
  277. # [18:18] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-204
  278. # [18:18] <trackbot> ISSUE-204 -- Exempt ARIA attributes from the rule that prohibits reference to hidden elements -- open
  279. # [18:18] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/204
  280. # [18:19] <rubys> paulc: the A11y TF is actively working this issue
  281. # [18:19] <rubys> topic: New Calls this week
  282. # [18:19] <rubys> paulc: there are none
  283. # [18:19] <rubys> topic: New Surveys this week
  284. # [18:19] <rubys> paulc: there are none
  285. # [18:19] <rubys> topic: Decisions this week
  286. # [18:19] <rubys> paulc: there are none
  287. # [18:19] <rubys> topic: Other Business
  288. # [18:20] <rubys> CfC: Create Media Task Force http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0007.html
  289. # [18:20] <rubys> paulc: we got a request to extend this by a week; I've extended this consensus to next wednesday
  290. # [18:20] * rubys no objection here
  291. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> q+ to talk about IRI WG ticket related to issue 189
  292. # [18:20] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  293. # [18:20] <rubys> ack next
  294. # [18:20] * Zakim sees MikeSmith at the head of the speaker queue
  295. # [18:20] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to talk about IRI WG ticket related to issue 189
  296. # [18:20] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  297. # [18:21] <rubys> Call for agenda topics for May face-to-face meeting http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0006.html
  298. # [18:21] <rubys> paulc: we already have one suggestions
  299. # [18:21] <rubys> s/suggestions/suggestion/
  300. # [18:21] <rubys> paulc: we currently have 30 people registered for the HTML WG meeting
  301. # [18:21] <rubys> paulc: the registration closes on monday
  302. # [18:22] <rubys> paulc: we will look for candidate items up to the point of the meeting, which will be run in an unconference style
  303. # [18:22] <rubys> paulc: comments?
  304. # [18:22] <rubys> mike: I sent mail about issue 189
  305. # [18:22] <rubys> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0075.html
  306. # [18:23] <rubys> mike: the IETF IRI working group had an ticket opened on this item
  307. # [18:23] <rubys> s/an ticket/a ticket/
  308. # [18:23] <rubys> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/iri/trac/ticket/123
  309. # [18:24] <rubys> mike: if you look at that ticket, you will see that the current status is CLOSED/FIXED; seen as out of scope
  310. # [18:24] <Julian> q+
  311. # [18:24] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  312. # [18:24] * Quits: nonge_ (nonge@91.50.110.229) (Quit: Verlassend)
  313. # [18:24] <rubys> mike: the IRI working has no plans to work this
  314. # [18:25] <paulc> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-189
  315. # [18:25] <rubys> mike: the issue contains an assertion that we need to work with the IETF. It is not clear who to coordinate with if the IRI working group hasn't taken this up.
  316. # [18:25] <rubys> mike: if the status changes, I will communicate that back
  317. # [18:25] <rubys> mike: neither of the chairs of the IRI WG are members of the HTML WG
  318. # [18:26] <Julian> Zakim, unmute me
  319. # [18:26] <Zakim> Julian should no longer be muted
  320. # [18:27] <rubys> julian: as the one who opened the HTML WG issue and the IRI ticket I can speak to both.
  321. # [18:27] <rubys> julian: I was in Paris with the IRI WG 14 days ago. They have no plans to discuss this until they are asked by the HTML WG.
  322. # [18:28] <rubys> julian: I don't know with whom Mike has spoken, the feedback he provided is not what I remember from that meeting
  323. # [18:29] <MikeSmith> q+ to say that no, I don't think the IRI WG is expecting to be formally contacted by the HTML WG
  324. # [18:29] * Zakim sees Julian, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  325. # [18:29] <rubys> julian: I know that I am on the hook to update my CP. My update will state that we need coordination, and I don't volunteer to be that person as I don't believe that feature is needed.
  326. # [18:29] * Quits: lar_zzz (lar_zzz@88.79.143.185) (Quit: Leaving.)
  327. # [18:29] <rubys> paulc: date for update:
  328. # [18:30] <rubys> julian: I plan to get to that next weekend; it won't be a big change
  329. # [18:30] <rubys> paulc: ETA would Monday, April 16th
  330. # [18:30] <rubys> ack next
  331. # [18:30] * Zakim sees Julian at the head of the speaker queue
  332. # [18:30] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  333. # [18:30] <rubys> ack next
  334. # [18:30] * Zakim sees MikeSmith at the head of the speaker queue
  335. # [18:30] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to say that no, I don't think the IRI WG is expecting to be formally contacted by the HTML WG
  336. # [18:30] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  337. # [18:31] <rubys> mike: the IRI WG has taken no resolution indicating that they are waiting on anything
  338. # [18:31] <tantek> rubys - just saw mention of 183 - I'm on IRC but not on the phone.
  339. # [18:32] <rubys> mike: Julian if you believe differently, please ask them to confirm that. It is quite possible that's not in the minutes.
  340. # [18:32] <rubys> s/It is quite possible that's not in the minutes.//
  341. # [18:32] <rubys> julian: It is quite possible that's not in the minutes.
  342. # [18:32] <tantek> I must admit I'm having trouble following the length and complexity of the CJones proposal
  343. # [18:32] <rubys> mike: I talked to both chairs
  344. # [18:33] <rubys> mike: we don't have agreement that any coordination is necessary. That's what is in dispute.
  345. # [18:33] * Quits: drublic (drublic@93.132.253.60) (Client exited)
  346. # [18:33] <rubys> julian: it wouldn't be the IRI WG, it would be the apps area in general
  347. # [18:34] <rubys> julian: I talked Thomas and Mark, we have a meta-coordination area
  348. # [18:34] <rubys> mike: you should talk to PLH too
  349. # [18:34] <tantek> what's the best way to iterate on / respond to http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Cjones/ISSUE-183 ? a point by point discussion?
  350. # [18:35] <rubys> julian: if an action item were assigned to me, I would close it as already done
  351. # [18:35] <rubys> paulc: is your advise to wait for the IETF
  352. # [18:35] <rubys> julian: there is nobody official who can answer that
  353. # [18:36] <rubys> julian: this is something that should be handled on the liaison people
  354. # [18:36] <Julian> Zakim, unmute me
  355. # [18:36] <Zakim> Julian was not muted, Julian
  356. # [18:36] <rubys> paulc: I will convey this to PLH
  357. # [18:36] <Julian> Zakim, mute me
  358. # [18:36] <Zakim> Julian should now be muted
  359. # [18:38] <paulc> tantek: I suggest you respond directly to the email and if your points are sufficiently different then split the response into separate emails with appropriate Subject: fields
  360. # [18:38] <paulc> BTW "the email" I meant the one where Cameron announced his revision.
  361. # [18:38] <rubys> paulc: any other business?
  362. # [18:39] <cjones> tantek: i'm keen to answer any questions you have on the proposal
  363. # [18:39] <rubys> janina: from the A11y TF, we would like to get on record requesting that issue-201 hold off further action until after the F2F
  364. # [18:39] <rubys> paulc: I've already mentioned it on the call; we will likely respond on public-html on that item today
  365. # [18:39] <rubys> paulc: any other other business?
  366. # [18:39] <tantek> biggest problems are with the objections to <time> being dependent on future hypotheticals, and the suggestion to use input types instead put far more burden on authors - why should an author have to decide between type="date" and type="datetime" and the numerous other datetime related input types?
  367. # [18:39] <rubys> paulc: none heard
  368. # [18:39] <rubys> topic: Scribe for next meeting
  369. # [18:40] <rubys> ted volunteers to scribe
  370. # [18:40] <rubys> maciej is the likely chair
  371. # [18:40] <rubys> topic: Adjournment
  372. # [18:40] <Zakim> -Radhika_Roy
  373. # [18:40] <rubys> rrsagent, publish minutes
  374. # [18:40] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/12-html-wg-minutes.html rubys
  375. # [18:40] <Zakim> -Clarke
  376. # [18:40] <Zakim> -Janina
  377. # [18:40] <Zakim> -Julian
  378. # [18:40] <Zakim> -Mike
  379. # [18:40] <Zakim> -adrianba
  380. # [18:40] * Parts: janina (janina@69.140.165.18)
  381. # [18:40] <Zakim> -KevinStreeter
  382. # [18:40] <Zakim> -Joseph_Scheuhammer
  383. # [18:40] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  384. # [18:40] <Zakim> -eliot
  385. # [18:40] <tantek> in fact, by asking the author to distinguish between different datetime types e.g. "month" etc. at that even finer granularity explicitly, it is *worse* than the simple <time> element which automatically determines datetime granularity by parsing the value!
  386. # [18:40] <Zakim> -glenn
  387. # [18:40] * Quits: MFoladare (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  388. # [18:40] * Quits: Juhani (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  389. # [18:40] * Parts: KevinStreeter (KevinStree@192.150.10.201)
  390. # [18:41] * Parts: adrianba (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  391. # [18:41] <tantek> hi cjones
  392. # [18:41] <Zakim> -Juhahi
  393. # [18:41] <Zakim> -[Apple]
  394. # [18:41] <tantek> would be great to increase our common understanding of how to best semantically markup / express datetime information
  395. # [18:42] <tantek> i'd rather work with you on improving shared consensus than debate on an email list
  396. # [18:43] <cjones> hi tantek
  397. # [18:43] <tantek> hello
  398. # [18:44] <cjones> yes, i'm keen to discuss\explore the implications of both techniques for date\time markup
  399. # [18:44] <cjones> the update to the proposal documents the points which were raised in the bug report
  400. # [18:45] <tantek> does what I said above about the type granularity of input datetime types vs the simple <time> element make sense?
  401. # [18:45] <tantek> as to why <time> is more desirable than data type=(various datetime input types)
  402. # [18:47] * Quits: hober (ted@17.212.152.28) (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs))
  403. # [18:48] * hober2 is now known as hober
  404. # [18:48] <cjones> i understand your point, it is more verbose than relying on the microsyntax but that dosen't mean it is necessarily better for the reasons i put foreward
  405. # [18:49] <cjones> authors should decide between date and datetime - in fact they must with either approach
  406. # [18:49] <tantek> it's not just more verbose
  407. # [18:49] <tantek> it's prone to error due to excessive precise typing
  408. # [18:50] * Joins: drublic (drublic@93.132.228.105)
  409. # [18:50] <tantek> e.g.
  410. # [18:50] <tantek> <time>2012-04</time> just works
  411. # [18:50] <tantek> where as with <data> it depends on getting the type exactly right
  412. # [18:50] <tantek> e.g. it depends on <data type="month">2012-04</data>
  413. # [18:51] <tantek> web authors will easily forget and put something like
  414. # [18:51] <tantek> <data type="date">2012-04</data>
  415. # [18:51] <tantek> or perhaps the data will change over time! (as it does)
  416. # [18:51] <cjones> yes, but <time> requires the microsyntax to be exactly right
  417. # [18:52] <tantek> a microsyntax determined from actual usage and previous standards - so there's data for people getting that right
  418. # [18:52] * Quits: ddorwin (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
  419. # [18:52] <tantek> if someone starts with:
  420. # [18:52] * Joins: J_Voracek (J_Voracek@70.123.106.75)
  421. # [18:52] <tantek> <data type="date">2012-01-15</data>
  422. # [18:52] <tantek> and updates the data later (which happens often) to
  423. # [18:52] <tantek> <data type="date">2012-05</data>
  424. # [18:52] <tantek> then they get a failure
  425. # [18:52] <tantek> w
  426. # [18:52] <tantek> he
  427. # [18:52] <tantek> re
  428. # [18:52] <tantek> whereas
  429. # [18:53] <tantek> if they start with
  430. # [18:53] <tantek> <time>2012-01-15</time>
  431. # [18:53] <tantek> and later the data gets updated
  432. # [18:53] <tantek> <time>2012-05</time>
  433. # [18:53] <tantek> it just works
  434. # [18:54] <tantek> = <time> is more robust (especially over time) for authoring than <data type> for date and time related data types
  435. # [18:54] <cjones> i wouln't say robust...but it does have the potential to be more automatic
  436. # [18:55] <J_Voracek>
  437. # [18:55] <tantek> more robust because changes to the data over time just work
  438. # [18:55] <tantek> rather than requiring a parallel change to an explicit data type
  439. # [18:55] <tantek> also
  440. # [18:55] <cjones> alternatively, one can switch between denominations using the same encoding but alternating the discriminator
  441. # [18:55] <tantek> any time a system ends up requiring such a "parallel change" - it's a sign of a DRY violation
  442. # [18:56] <cjones> <data type="year" value="2012-04-12T17:30"/>
  443. # [18:57] <cjones> <data type="month" value="2012-04-12T17:30"/>
  444. # [18:57] <tantek> and one has no idea what's actually intended by that by the author
  445. # [18:57] <cjones> it doesn't require a parallel change - its being defined in a different place
  446. # [18:57] <tantek> by including the full datetime in the data - do they intend that level of precision? I'd think so
  447. # [18:57] <tantek> but then the indication of year or month is confusing
  448. # [18:58] <tantek> much simpler (and shorter = easier to read / verify) to have:
  449. # [18:58] <tantek> <time>2012</time>
  450. # [18:58] <tantek> and
  451. # [18:58] * Quits: J_Voracek (J_Voracek@70.123.106.75) (Ping timeout)
  452. # [18:58] <tantek> <time>2012-04</time>
  453. # [18:58] <tantek> I guarantee authors will prefer the <time> alternatives to those <data type> examples you just provided.
  454. # [18:58] <tantek> simpler, cleaner, more readable, less cruft
  455. # [18:59] <cjones> what about automated document generation? does it make that easier?
  456. # [19:00] <tantek> nothing is fully automated
  457. # [19:00] <tantek> some human codes an HTML template by hand
  458. # [19:00] * Zakim tantek, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  459. # [19:00] <cjones> no, it has to be programmed
  460. # [19:00] <cjones> yes, i write html by hand too
  461. # [19:00] <tantek> and then some robot randomly criticizes your chatter
  462. # [19:01] <cjones> :)
  463. # [19:01] <tantek> even programmers have to write the code that generates the HTML by hand
  464. # [19:01] * Zakim tantek, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  465. # [19:01] <cjones> ?!?
  466. # [19:01] <tantek> lol
  467. # [19:01] <Zakim> -Sam
  468. # [19:01] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
  469. # [19:01] <Zakim> Attendees were Mike, glenn, Clarke, Sam, eliot, hober, paulc, Radhika_Roy, KevinStreeter, [Microsoft], adrianba, Julian, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Juhahi, Janina
  470. # [19:01] * Joins: nesta_ (nesta_@83.58.131.121)
  471. # [19:02] <[tm]> tantek: Zakim don't like the word 'hand'
  472. # [19:02] <cjones> how would you expect <time> to be able to handle abstract date\times?
  473. # [19:03] <cjones> the microsyntax has no room for extension
  474. # [19:03] <[tm]> if you make it the final word
  475. # [19:03] <tantek> cjones - in my experience pages/templates are far more often hand coded than completely programmatically generated. especially good/modern sites, separate the application logic / view generation from templates.
  476. # [19:03] <cjones> but - data markup will be driven my automated machines
  477. # [19:03] <tantek> cjones - sorry to say but that's already been disproven by the expansion of the <time> element to date! (no pun intended)
  478. # [19:04] <tantek> the <time> element used to only allow full dates (not months or years)
  479. # [19:04] <tantek> but I proposed expanding it to allow years and year-months
  480. # [19:04] <tantek> and the microsyntax was subsequently expanded
  481. # [19:04] <cjones> but they must have a year or month component
  482. # [19:04] <tantek> we have experience that shows that the microsyntax *can* be extended
  483. # [19:04] <cjones> you can not refer to the abstract month of "April"
  484. # [19:04] <tantek> which disputes your assertion without data or reasoning that "the microsyntax has no room for extension"
  485. # [19:05] <cjones> yes, they can, but how can ISO 8601 be extended?
  486. # [19:05] <tantek> how does it need to? where's your use case?
  487. # [19:05] <tantek> every expansion we made came with use cases
  488. # [19:05] <tantek> well documented on the wiki
  489. # [19:05] <cjones> my reasoning is that the only way to extend <time> is adding discrimination bringing to closer and closer to what <data> provides
  490. # [19:05] <tantek> I'm not really interested in discussing hypothetical extensions to ISO 8601
  491. # [19:05] <cjones> no
  492. # [19:06] <tantek> cjones - I don't know what you mean by "adding discrimination"
  493. # [19:06] <tantek> as noted above
  494. # [19:06] <cjones> type values
  495. # [19:06] <tantek> we didn't need to add any discrimination
  496. # [19:06] <tantek> to already extend <time>
  497. # [19:06] <cjones> but then values are limited to what the microsyntax can encode
  498. # [19:06] <tantek> you're not providing any reasoning - you're just reiterating an assertion
  499. # [19:07] <cjones> i'm trying to highlight a concern
  500. # [19:07] <tantek> sure, so if we need more, we extend the microsyntax
  501. # [19:07] <tantek> as we already have
  502. # [19:07] <cjones> i don't see how thats possible
  503. # [19:07] <tantek> we've already done it
  504. # [19:07] <cjones> but not for abstract date\times
  505. # [19:07] <tantek> so don't bother asserting it's impossible :)
  506. # [19:07] <tantek> what's the use case?
  507. # [19:07] <cjones> shrove tuesday
  508. # [19:07] <tantek> and btw - input type="month" is not abstract
  509. # [19:07] <tantek> it does mean year-month
  510. # [19:08] <cjones> no, its not
  511. # [19:08] <cjones> yes
  512. # [19:08] <tantek> what is shrove tuesday?
  513. # [19:08] <cjones> pancake day
  514. # [19:08] <cjones> chnages every year, or easter
  515. # [19:09] <tantek> repeating events are beyond the scope of a simple element
  516. # [19:09] <tantek> especially named ones
  517. # [19:09] <tantek> if you want to create a named event (like a specific holiday)
  518. # [19:09] <tantek> you need more structure
  519. # [19:09] <tantek> I'd suggest looking at hCalendar to start with for that: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar
  520. # [19:09] <cjones> you are limiting the scope arbitrarily
  521. # [19:09] <tantek> no I'm offering a solution to your use-case
  522. # [19:10] <tantek> an existing, working solution
  523. # [19:10] <tantek> anyway - if you prefer I can write-up the above reasoning and side-by-side comparisons of <time> vs. <data type> syntax in the wiki
  524. # [19:11] <tantek> I think it will be pretty clear to authors (which all of us are) that the <time> syntax simpler and more robust for all the here-and-now established use-cases
  525. # [19:11] <cjones> sure, i think it will be very helpful
  526. # [19:11] <tantek> if you have new use-cases to discuss - that's probably worth a different proposal
  527. # [19:12] <tantek> It took over a year to document sufficient use-cases well enough for the most recent expansion of the <time> element BTW
  528. # [19:12] <cjones> i initially had no problem with <time> at all, concerns are raised over the seeming duplication in functionality with <data>
  529. # [19:12] <tantek> so if you're being serious about your additional use-cases, I'd suggest starting wiki pages for those ASAP
  530. # [19:12] <tantek> I'll try to help where I can with adding more data for your use-cases
  531. # [19:13] <tantek> cjones - the "seeming duplication" argument can be made about any phrase element in HTML and <span>
  532. # [19:13] <tantek> or rather <span class>
  533. # [19:13] <cjones> but thye share the same use case - data markup
  534. # [19:13] <cjones> what else is it for?
  535. # [19:14] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@85.228.175.141) (Ping timeout)
  536. # [19:14] <tantek> i.e. continuing with the proof by contradiction, you don't need <em> <strong> <kbd> etc. just use <span class>
  537. # [19:14] <tantek> historically HTML has found value ease of authoring and greater semantic value with a small number of more semantically specific elements
  538. # [19:14] <tantek> <time> is another such element
  539. # [19:15] <tantek> as we gather data demonstrating strong use cases for more in the future, we can consider those on a case by case basis
  540. # [19:15] <cjones> yes, a smaller number - having a distinct element for all data types is not
  541. # [19:15] <tantek> we don't have a distinct element for all types of textual semantics either
  542. # [19:15] <cjones> <data> is introduced to resolve the use case
  543. # [19:15] <tantek> e.g. if you reviewed Chicago Manual of Style - you could come up with dozens of more semantic elements
  544. # [19:16] <tantek> sure, <data> is a good catchall, just as <span> is
  545. # [19:16] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@85.228.175.141)
  546. # [19:16] <tantek> but just as the introduction of <span> didn't mean "drop <em> <strong> <kbd> " etc.
  547. # [19:16] <cjones> so the question is - does <time> represent a significant benefit to warrent its inclusion
  548. # [19:16] <tantek> the introduction of <data> doesn't mean drop <time>
  549. # [19:17] <tantek> cjones - the experience with the microformats community over the past 7 years is that yes, dates and times in particular are problematic to just use a generic element with, and that <time> helps significantly
  550. # [19:17] <tantek> in otherwords, we're not adding <time> lightly
  551. # [19:17] <tantek> and in general, I do agree with a fairly conservative approach to adding new elements
  552. # [19:18] <tantek> for example, <geo> could be another case, but I don't think there is sufficient data/experience to justify it yet.
  553. # [19:18] <cjones> <location> is a better name
  554. # [19:18] <cjones> more abstract
  555. # [19:18] <tantek> maybe we'll gather such data and document it extensively over a few years and thus justify it, but not at the moment.
  556. # [19:18] <tantek> cjones - maybe - that's part of the question - indeed
  557. # [19:18] <tantek> <geo> vs. <location>
  558. # [19:19] <cjones> tbh, my feelings over <time> are not that strong
  559. # [19:19] <tantek> in practice part of the specific challenge is that geo and location tend to have more substructure to them which tends to imply use of multiple elements
  560. # [19:19] <cjones> my concerns are over the implications of having <data>
  561. # [19:19] <tantek> and geo itself has evolved over time
  562. # [19:20] <tantek> i.e. a few years ago latitude and longitude were the only commonly accepted (in standards) fields for geo
  563. # [19:20] <tantek> now altitude is commonly accepted
  564. # [19:20] <tantek> and radius (e.g. of interest) is also gaining acceptance
  565. # [19:20] <cjones> hmmm....geo should represent a point not an area, no
  566. # [19:20] <cjones> ?
  567. # [19:21] <tantek> the radius implies a "fuzziness"
  568. # [19:21] <cjones> which doesn't sound like such a good idea, imo
  569. # [19:21] <tantek> perhaps due to privacy disclosure reasons, perhaps due to geolocation sensory data imprecision
  570. # [19:21] <tantek> for more on that - see the W3C GeoLocation API
  571. # [19:22] <tantek> http://www.w3.org/TR/geolocation-API/
  572. # [19:22] <cjones> seems a bit leeky on imprecision
  573. # [19:22] <tantek> in particular: http://www.w3.org/TR/geolocation-API/#coordinates_interface
  574. # [19:23] <tantek> they use the label accuracy
  575. # [19:23] <tantek> but essentially it's a radius of fuzziness
  576. # [19:23] <cjones> i look at ISO 6709 for an indication as to how this would be introduced to HTML, same as for date\times
  577. # [19:24] <cjones> it's a valuable case to examine as the quesion of whether there should be a <location> element or <data type="location"> has all the same points
  578. # [19:24] <cjones> if <location> should be added, where does this stop?
  579. # [19:25] <cjones> how is location encoded with the tag? <location value="ISO-6709"/>
  580. # [19:25] <tantek> cjones - it likely doesn't stop - that's part of what we've learned with HTML - that adding specific tags over time has value
  581. # [19:25] <cjones> the overlap is getting quite large...
  582. # [19:26] <cjones> sorry, i have to go for now....
  583. # [19:26] <tantek> I don't have an answer for <location> without first seeing good documentation of real world use-cases
  584. # [19:26] <tantek> that's the key
  585. # [19:26] <tantek> with <time> (and its expansion) we have *years* of use-cases documentation
  586. # [19:26] <cjones> can we continue at a later time? <pun>
  587. # [19:26] <tantek> and took quite a long time to design/create/introduce the element
  588. # [19:26] <tantek> I expect similar scientific thoroughness for any geo or location or anything else
  589. # [19:26] <cjones> really?
  590. # [19:27] <tantek> so I'm ok with that slow pace of adding incremental specific elements
  591. # [19:27] <tantek> and until then, we can use <data> (without an explicit type) to just gather data (no pun intended) on what kinds of things people publish
  592. # [19:27] <tantek> we could even hold a vote each year at TPAC
  593. # [19:28] <tantek> HTML's Top <data>
  594. # [19:28] <tantek> ;)
  595. # [19:28] <tantek> and the winner would get its own specific element
  596. # [19:28] <tantek> though at the current pace, perhaps one every 2-3 years
  597. # [19:28] <tantek> rather than one every year
  598. # [19:29] <tantek> cjones - will chat later - I'll try to be on here again, or if you don't find me here, you can probably also find me on #whatwg on Freenode.
  599. # [19:29] <tantek> thanks for the discussion. I think we're increasing our mutual understanding even if we haven't quite figured out or come to a complete consensus yet.
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  604. # [19:56] <tantek> btw re: f2f meeting and wiki
  605. # [19:56] <tantek> cc: plh MikeSmith
  606. # [19:57] <tantek> about a month ago I started some wiki edits to the HTMLWG wiki home page http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Main_Page since I didn't see much discoverable about f2f meetings etc.
  607. # [19:58] <tantek> all parallel to what WebApps' wiki already has
  608. # [19:58] <tantek> e.g. I added meetings section: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Main_Page#Meetings
  609. # [19:59] <tantek> with link to a f2f page: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/F2F
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  611. # [20:00] <tantek> where I linked to one old f2f wiki page
  612. # [20:00] <tantek> and created a new wiki page for the upcoming meeting
  613. # [20:00] <tantek> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/2012-05-f2f
  614. # [20:01] <tantek> subsequently from today's call I saw that plh had created a new page: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/May2012Agenda
  615. # [20:01] <tantek> so I linked to that one
  616. # [20:05] <tantek> I have no particular preference for the HTMLWG wiki page taxonomy - I was merely creating *something* in absence of anything - I'll go along with whatever hierarchy plh MikeSmith or the chairs choose to go with.
  617. # [20:05] <tantek> let me know how I can help. thanks.
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  622. # [20:14] * plh back
  623. # [20:15] <plh> I didn't have a hierarchy in mind to be honest
  624. # [20:15] <plh> just created a page since it was needed
  625. # [20:19] <tantek> happy to help evolve it however you wish plh :)
  626. # [20:19] <plh> actually, I don't have a wish :)
  627. # [20:19] <tantek> of course my more global preference is that we switch in the next WG charter to using the W3C wiki (rather than a wg-specific wiki) but that's just me and my anti-namespace ways ;)
  628. # [20:20] <tantek> (also tired of logging into several different W3C wikis)
  629. # [20:20] <plh> yeah, I don't disagree with that
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  632. # [20:33] <tantek> plh, I proposed that at the last f2f in Santa Clara, and I believe the chairs said that that was something to propose for the next charter
  633. # [20:33] <tantek> (that the group use the W3C wiki rather than its own)
  634. # [20:33] <tantek> so I'm waiting patiently for charter renewal
  635. # [20:34] <tantek> would appreciate if you could help with making that change to the proposed renewal charter
  636. # [20:34] <tantek> (assuming there are no objections)
  637. # [20:35] <plh> I'm ok with doing the change
  638. # [20:35] <tantek> thanks!
  639. # [20:35] <plh> having said that, it's not we have to wait for a new charter for that imo
  640. # [20:36] <plh> the charter doesn't restrict us to one wiki
  641. # [20:36] <tantek> sure, that was simply what the chairs suggested to me - so I was going on their guidance
  642. # [20:37] <tantek> I'm ok with switching over ASAP to using the W3C wiki - but it would take more than one person to make it stick
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  644. # [20:37] <tantek> I suppose in practice if those of us in the HTMLWG decided as a whole to just start using/moving content to the W3C wiki, people would use it
  645. # [20:37] <plh> correct
  646. # [20:38] <plh> I don't know if there is a way to setup redirect in our wiki
  647. # [20:38] <plh> that would help as well
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  661. # [22:01] <cjones> tantek: hi, i'm back again but it's getting late so might be best to continue the discussions tomorrow\later
  662. # [22:03] <cjones> i agree that we seem to be achieving greater understanding, which is the goal so good progress so far
  663. # [22:04] <cjones> i'll stay online here and #whatwg (kalc4), afternoons GMT is good for me
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  672. # Session Close: Fri Apr 13 00:00:00 2012

The end :)