/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2012-05-03 / end

Options:

# Session Start: Thu May 03 00:00:02 2012
# Session Ident: #html-wg
# [00:13] * Joins: abarsto (abarsto@205.248.100.252)
# [00:13] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
# [01:04] * Quits: ArtB (abarsto@205.248.100.252) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [01:07] * Joins: abarsto (abarsto@205.248.100.252)
# [01:07] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
# [01:11] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
# [01:29] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.245.105.197) (Quit: mjs)
# [01:31] * Quits: glenn (gadams@205.248.100.252) (Client exited)
# [01:31] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.245.105.197)
# [01:34] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@205.248.100.252) (Quit: MikeSmith)
# [01:37] * Quits: plh (plh@128.30.52.28) (Quit: always accept cookies)
# [01:39] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@205.248.100.252)
# [01:39] * Quits: ArtB (abarsto@205.248.100.252) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [01:39] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
# [01:39] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
# [01:44] * Quits: tantek_ (tantek@205.248.100.252) (Quit: tantek_)
# [01:44] * Quits: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
# [01:45] * Quits: anne (annevk@205.248.100.252) (Quit: anne)
# [01:47] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@94.234.170.161) (Ping timeout)
# [01:47] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@94.234.170.161)
# [01:49] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@205.248.100.252) (Quit: MikeSmith)
# [01:50] * Joins: tantek_ (tantek@205.248.100.252)
# [01:50] * Quits: rniwa (rniwa@216.239.45.130) (Quit: rniwa)
# [01:51] * Quits: mattur (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
# [01:52] * Quits: tantek_ (tantek@205.248.100.252) (Quit: tantek_)
# [01:54] * Quits: tantek (tantek@205.248.100.252) (Quit: tantek)
# [02:23] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.245.105.197) (Quit: mjs)
# [02:23] * Quits: drublic (drublic@93.132.230.144) (Client exited)
# [02:25] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.245.105.197)
# [02:25] * Joins: davidb (davidb@174.91.42.30)
# [02:26] * Quits: davidb (davidb@174.91.42.30) (Client exited)
# [02:30] * Joins: davidb (davidb@174.91.42.30)
# [02:32] * Quits: dveditz (dveditz@205.248.100.252) (Quit: dveditz)
# [02:49] * Joins: tantek (tantek@66.87.2.118)
# [02:58] * Joins: dveditz (dveditz@63.245.220.240)
# [03:01] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.245.105.197) (Quit: mjs)
# [03:23] * Quits: mattkelly (mattwkelly@173.252.71.2) (Ping timeout)
# [03:45] * Joins: mattkelly (mattwkelly@64.34.186.7)
# [03:49] * Quits: tantek (tantek@66.87.2.118) (Quit: tantek)
# [03:54] * Joins: tantek (tantek@66.87.2.118)
# [03:57] * miketaylrawaylol is now known as miketaylr
# [04:02] * Quits: mattkelly (mattwkelly@64.34.186.7) (Ping timeout)
# [04:03] * Quits: davidb (davidb@174.91.42.30) (Quit: davidb)
# [04:10] * Quits: tH (Rob@86.26.248.235) (Ping timeout)
# [04:11] * Quits: tantek (tantek@66.87.2.118) (Quit: tantek)
# [04:13] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
# [04:25] * Joins: tantek (tantek@66.87.2.118)
# [04:27] * Joins: myakura (myakura@221.171.5.98)
# [04:28] * Joins: mjs (mjs@24.6.209.189)
# [05:17] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
# [05:18] * Quits: tantek (tantek@66.87.2.118) (Quit: tantek)
# [05:20] * Quits: dveditz (dveditz@63.245.220.240) (Quit: dveditz)
# [05:25] * Joins: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169)
# [05:26] * Quits: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
# [06:02] * Joins: mattkelly (mattwkelly@69.181.69.39)
# [06:05] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@173.164.173.13)
# [06:32] * Joins: rniwa (rniwa@70.89.66.218)
# [06:32] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
# [06:36] * Joins: rniwa_ (rniwa@216.239.45.130)
# [06:39] * Quits: rniwa (rniwa@70.89.66.218) (Ping timeout)
# [06:39] * rniwa_ is now known as rniwa
# [06:40] * Quits: Philip (philip@92.243.11.39) (Ping timeout)
# [06:41] * Quits: myakura (myakura@221.171.5.98) (Client exited)
# [06:42] * Joins: Philip (philip@92.243.11.39)
# [07:30] * Quits: miketaylr (miketaylr@70.112.101.224) (Quit: Leaving...)
# [08:50] * Joins: nesta_ (nesta_@83.58.89.88)
# [08:55] * Joins: tantek (tantek@50.1.62.23)
# [08:56] * Quits: Philip (philip@92.243.11.39) (Ping timeout)
# [08:56] * Joins: Philip (philip@92.243.11.39)
# [09:03] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@94.234.170.161) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [09:03] * Quits: mattkelly (mattwkelly@69.181.69.39) (Ping timeout)
# [09:23] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@217.13.228.226)
# [09:23] * Quits: jmb (jmb@109.74.199.199) (Ping timeout)
# [09:25] * Joins: jmb (jmb@109.74.199.199)
# [09:34] * Joins: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169)
# [10:11] * Joins: myakura (myakura@221.171.5.98)
# [10:11] * Quits: myakura (myakura@221.171.5.98) (Client exited)
# [10:11] * Joins: myakura (myakura@221.171.5.98)
# [10:23] * Joins: drublic (drublic@93.132.244.75)
# [10:56] * Joins: icaaq1 (Adium@217.13.228.226)
# [10:56] * Quits: gavin (gavin@63.245.208.169) (Ping timeout)
# [10:56] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@217.13.228.226) (Ping timeout)
# [10:58] * Joins: gavin (gavin@63.245.208.169)
# [11:00] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@217.13.228.226)
# [11:01] * Quits: icaaq1 (Adium@217.13.228.226) (Ping timeout)
# [11:01] * Joins: icaaq1 (Adium@217.13.228.226)
# [11:03] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@217.13.228.226) (Ping timeout)
# [11:14] * Quits: Lachy (Lachy@84.215.193.30) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
# [11:26] * Joins: Lachy (Lachy@213.236.208.22)
# [11:55] * Joins: nonge_ (nonge@80.130.188.17)
# [11:58] * Quits: nonge (nonge@91.50.100.67) (Ping timeout)
# [12:07] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@173.164.173.13) (Ping timeout)
# [12:22] * Quits: rniwa (rniwa@216.239.45.130) (Quit: rniwa)
# [12:57] * Joins: mattur (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [13:10] * Joins: tH (Rob@86.26.248.235)
# [13:14] * Quits: icaaq1 (Adium@217.13.228.226) (Ping timeout)
# [13:19] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@217.13.228.226)
# [13:24] * Quits: Lachy (Lachy@213.236.208.22) (Quit: Bye)
# [13:28] * Joins: Lachy (Lachy@213.236.208.22)
# [13:57] * nonge_ is now known as nonge
# [14:25] * Joins: icaaq1 (Adium@217.13.228.226)
# [14:25] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@217.13.228.226) (Connection reset by peer)
# [14:48] * Joins: davidb (davidb@66.207.208.98)
# [15:12] * Quits: nesta_ (nesta_@83.58.89.88) (Quit: nesta_)
# [15:51] * Joins: miketaylr (miketaylr@70.112.101.224)
# [16:06] * Quits: icaaq1 (Adium@217.13.228.226) (Connection reset by peer)
# [16:06] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@217.13.228.226)
# [16:15] * hiro_away is now known as hiro
# [16:49] * Quits: miketaylr (miketaylr@70.112.101.224) (Connection reset by peer)
# [16:50] * Quits: mjs (mjs@24.6.209.189) (Quit: mjs)
# [17:10] * Quits: tantek (tantek@50.1.62.23) (Quit: tantek)
# [17:26] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@217.13.228.226) (Ping timeout)
# [17:37] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@217.13.228.226)
# [17:38] * Joins: J_Voracek (J_Voracek@70.123.106.75)
# [17:39] <J_Voracek>
# [17:41] * Quits: J_Voracek (J_Voracek@70.123.106.75) (Quit: disconnected: Jace Voracek - Jace@Jace-Place.com)
# [17:45] * Joins: tantek (tantek@66.87.7.78)
# [17:48] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@205.248.100.252)
# [17:51] * Joins: J_Voracek (J_Voracek@70.123.106.75)
# [18:01] * Quits: Lachy (Lachy@213.236.208.22) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
# [18:02] * Quits: icaaq (Adium@217.13.228.226) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [18:02] * Joins: Clarke (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [18:08] * Joins: paulc (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [18:08] * Joins: MFoladare (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [18:08] * Joins: rubys (rubys@205.248.100.252)
# [18:08] * Quits: rubys (rubys@205.248.100.252) (Client exited)
# [18:08] <paulc> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/May2012Agenda
# [18:08] * Joins: eliot (eliot@131.107.0.118)
# [18:08] * Joins: rubys (rubys@205.248.100.252)
# [18:08] * Joins: plh (plh@128.30.52.28)
# [18:08] * Joins: krisk (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [18:09] * Joins: mjs (mjs@205.248.100.252)
# [18:09] * Joins: magnus (magnus@205.248.100.252)
# [18:10] * Joins: hiroki (h_yamada@128.30.52.28)
# [18:10] * Joins: shan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [18:11] * Joins: abarsto (abarsto@205.248.100.252)
# [18:11] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
# [18:12] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html ArtB
# [18:12] * ArtB MikeSmith - is it OK to ask RRSAgent to: make log Public?
# [18:12] <tantek> good morning
# [18:12] <MikeSmith> ArtB, yeah
# [18:13] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log Public
# [18:13] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, ArtB
# [18:13] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:13] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html ArtB
# [18:13] <MikeSmith> hey tantek, we are starting in a couple minutes, so you guys will have to catch up once you get here
# [18:13] * Joins: acolwell (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [18:13] <ArtB> Title: HTML WG F2F Meeting
# [18:14] <Clarke> Will there be a phone connection?
# [18:14] * hiro is now known as hiro_away
# [18:14] <MikeSmith> Clarke, yeah
# [18:14] <ArtB> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/May2012Agenda
# [18:14] <tantek> thanks MikeSmith
# [18:15] * Quits: rubys (rubys@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
# [18:15] * Joins: odinho (Velmont@193.157.115.211)
# [18:15] <MikeSmith> Clarke, +1.617.761.6200, code 4865
# [18:15] * Joins: anne (annevk@205.248.100.252)
# [18:15] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
# [18:15] <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
# [18:16] <plh> zakim, this will be html
# [18:16] <Zakim> ok, plh, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
# [18:16] * trackbot is preparing a teleconference
# [18:16] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [18:16] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
# [18:16] * plh zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:16] * Zakim sees on the phone: Radhika_Roy, [Microsoft], ??P24
# [18:16] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be html_wg
# [18:16] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
# [18:16] <trackbot> Date: 03 May 2012
# [18:16] <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
# [18:16] <Zakim> -Radhika_Roy
# [18:16] <MikeSmith> Meeting: HTML WG F2F Meeting
# [18:16] <Zakim> +tantek
# [18:16] * plh wonders who ??p24 is ...
# [18:16] <odinho> Present+ Odin_Horthe_Omdal
# [18:17] * Joins: adrianba (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [18:17] <eliot> zakim, microsoft has me
# [18:17] <Zakim> +eliot; got it
# [18:17] * Joins: rubys (rubys@205.248.100.252)
# [18:17] <plh> Present+ plh
# [18:18] <magnus> Present+ Magnus_Olsson
# [18:18] <Zakim> -??P24
# [18:18] <tantek> Zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:18] <Zakim> On the phone I see [Microsoft], tantek
# [18:18] <Zakim> [Microsoft] has eliot
# [18:18] <Zakim> +Radhika_Roy
# [18:18] * plh rrsagent, generate minutes
# [18:18] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html plh
# [18:18] <tantek> we can't hear anything on the phone btw
# [18:18] <Zakim> +??P0
# [18:18] <tantek> Zakim, mute tantek
# [18:18] <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
# [18:18] <Clarke> zakim, ??P0 is me
# [18:18] <Zakim> +Clarke; got it
# [18:19] <tantek> is the room dialed into the phone?
# [18:19] * Joins: glenn (gadams@205.248.100.252)
# [18:19] <plh> not yet
# [18:19] <MikeSmith> tantek, we are dialing in now
# [18:19] <plh> zakim, passcode?
# [18:19] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), plh
# [18:19] * Quits: acolwell (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
# [18:20] * Joins: Wonsuk (wonsuk73@205.248.100.252)
# [18:20] * Joins: acolwell (acolwell@205.248.100.252)
# [18:20] <Wonsuk> Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
# [18:20] <Zakim> + +1.650.693.aaaa
# [18:22] * Joins: bryan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [18:22] <bryan> present+ Bryan_Sullivan
# [18:22] * Parts: rubys (rubys@205.248.100.252)
# [18:24] <Zakim> -tantek
# [18:24] * Joins: eric_carlson (eric_carls@205.248.100.252)
# [18:24] <Zakim> +hober
# [18:25] * odinho has problems seeing the screen, it's so small. Maybe CTRL + + ?
# [18:26] * Joins: JF (chatzilla@205.248.100.252)
# [18:26] <tantek> Zakim, mute hober
# [18:26] <Zakim> hober should now be muted
# [18:26] <ArtB> Present+ Art_Barstow
# [18:26] <krisk> Present+ krisk
# [18:26] * plh zakim, who is on the phone?
# [18:26] * Zakim sees on the phone: [Microsoft], Radhika_Roy, Clarke, +1.650.693.aaaa, hober (muted)
# [18:26] * Zakim [Microsoft] has eliot
# [18:26] <tantek> zakim, unmute hober
# [18:26] <Zakim> hober should no longer be muted
# [18:26] <tantek> Zakim, mute hober
# [18:26] <Zakim> hober should now be muted
# [18:27] <shan> Present+ Soonbo_Han
# [18:27] * Joins: frankolivier (cdf86654@207.192.75.252)
# [18:27] * Joins: chaals (chaals@205.248.100.252)
# [18:27] * Joins: mark_vickers (mark_vicke@198.228.208.120)
# [18:29] <krisk> scribe: krisk
# [18:29] <paulc> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/May2012Agenda
# [18:29] * Joins: rubys (rubys@205.248.100.252)
# [18:29] <glenn> Present+ Glenn_Adams_(glenn)
# [18:29] <krisk> paulc: choosing topics for F2F
# [18:30] <krisk> paulc: Potential Topics...
# [18:31] <krisk> time/date OR how/when we add semantic elements to HTML
# [18:31] <krisk> Issue 183
# [18:31] * Joins: ddorwin (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [18:32] * Joins: Lachy (Lachy@84.215.193.30)
# [18:32] <krisk> media extensions/Encrypted media
# [18:32] <krisk> HTMLG WG charter
# [18:32] <krisk> If people have specific timeslots for an agenda then we will accomidate
# [18:33] <eliot> needs to drop off the call for a bit. Will return later.
# [18:33] <krisk> #1 Time/Date
# [18:33] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [18:33] * Joins: JVoracek (J_Voracek@70.123.106.75)
# [18:33] <krisk> #2 Media Extensions +Task Force
# [18:34] <krisk> #3 HTML Charter (V.NEXT)
# [18:34] <krisk> #4 Test Suite
# [18:34] * Quits: J_Voracek (J_Voracek@70.123.106.75) (Ping timeout)
# [18:34] <krisk> #5 Issue 199
# [18:34] <odinho> s/accomidate/accommodate/
# [18:35] <krisk> #6 Issue 201 (canvas hit testing)
# [18:35] <krisk> paulc: Let's collect some other topics?
# [18:35] <krisk> paulc: If you have outstanding issue, please speak up
# [18:36] <krisk> anne: what is the charter (#3) about
# [18:36] * Quits: drublic (drublic@93.132.244.75) (Client exited)
# [18:36] <krisk> plh: we can dive into any of these or scope
# [18:36] <krisk> anne: We should talk about the items that occured last week...
# [18:37] <krisk> ..CG, editors...
# [18:37] <krisk> paulc: This is the stabilization of the spec
# [18:38] <ArtB> -> http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/html5-stabilization-plan.html Draft HTML5 Stabilization Plan
# [18:38] <krisk> #7 Stabization and FAQ
# [18:38] <MikeSmith> issue-194?
# [18:38] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-194
# [18:38] <trackbot> ISSUE-194 -- Provide a mechanism for associating a full transcript with an audio or video element. -- open
# [18:38] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/194
# [18:38] <krisk> #8 Issue 194
# [18:39] * Joins: joesteele (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [18:39] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-194
# [18:39] <MikeSmith> 21 open issue
# [18:39] <MikeSmith> s/open issue/open issues/
# [18:40] * Joins: dveditz (dveditz@205.248.100.252)
# [18:40] <krisk> #9 Other Issues (21 total), discussion about any of these
# [18:40] <rubys> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html
# [18:40] <MikeSmith> (Mark Watson arrives)
# [18:40] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:40] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [18:40] <krisk> paulc: we can talk about feedback for proposal, questions, etc...
# [18:41] * Joins: Russell_Berkoff (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [18:41] <MikeSmith> issue-199?
# [18:41] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-199
# [18:41] <trackbot> ISSUE-199 -- Define complete processing requirements for ARIA attributes -- open
# [18:41] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/199
# [18:41] <mjs> hober: are you here yet?
# [18:41] <krisk> paulc: do we have a rough time estimate for issue 199?
# [18:41] <krisk> mikesmith: should be about 45 minutes
# [18:42] <krisk> paulc: Issue 201 will need about 90 minutes
# [18:43] * chaals thinks: talking about tests, 30 minutes. Making them, weeks
# [18:43] <krisk> paulc: Media extensions, are people ready to discuss this?
# [18:43] <odinho> s/Stabization/Stabilization/
# [18:44] * Quits: tantek (tantek@66.87.7.78) (Quit: tantek)
# [18:44] <krisk> paulc: given the threads, it should take a long time (120 minutes)
# [18:44] * Quits: JVoracek (J_Voracek@70.123.106.75) (Quit: disconnected: Jace Voracek - Jace@Jace-Place.com)
# [18:44] <krisk> anne: can we split the two...
# [18:44] * Joins: J_Voracek (J_Voracek@70.123.106.75)
# [18:47] * Joins: mattkelly (mattwkelly@166.161.128.15)
# [18:47] * Quits: J_Voracek (J_Voracek@70.123.106.75) (Quit: disconnected: Jace Voracek - Jace@Jace-Place.com)
# [18:48] <krisk> Shoudl we do one of the media ones first?
# [18:49] <krisk> ...no agreement...
# [18:49] <krisk> paulc: let's to stabilization first?
# [18:49] * chaals has to step out. Will be back in an hour (or less if we are lucky)
# [18:50] * Quits: mattkelly (mattwkelly@166.161.128.15) (Ping timeout)
# [18:50] * Joins: mattkelly (mattwkelly@166.161.128.15)
# [18:51] <MikeSmith> issue-183?
# [18:51] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-183
# [18:51] <trackbot> ISSUE-183 -- Enhance and simplify the time element -- open
# [18:51] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/183
# [18:51] <MikeSmith> issue-184?
# [18:51] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-184
# [18:51] <trackbot> ISSUE-184 -- Add a data element -- open
# [18:51] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/184
# [18:51] <Zakim> -hober
# [18:52] <shan> s/Shoudl/Should/
# [18:52] <krisk> paulc..here is the rough schedule
# [18:52] <krisk> 9->10:30 today == Stabilization
# [18:52] <krisk> 10:45: -> noon Issue-199
# [18:53] <krisk> 1->3pm Issue 201
# [18:53] <krisk> 3:15 -> 5pm Issue 194, <time> & <date>, 183, 184
# [18:53] * Quits: mattkelly (mattwkelly@166.161.128.15) (Ping timeout)
# [18:53] * Joins: mattkelly (mattwkelly@107.38.98.158)
# [18:54] <krisk> paulc: please object if this doesn't work for you
# [18:54] <krisk> Friday 9->10:30 Media (both parts)
# [18:54] * Quits: mattkelly (mattwkelly@107.38.98.158) (Quit: mattkelly)
# [18:54] <krisk> 10:45 -> noon Charter
# [18:54] <odinho> s/let's to/let's do/
# [18:54] <krisk> 1-> 5pm Test suite/Open Issues
# [18:55] * Joins: MichaelC (Michael@128.30.52.169)
# [18:56] * Joins: tantek (tantek@66.87.7.78)
# [18:56] <krisk> paulc: Let's move into the stabilization topic
# [18:56] <paulc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0204.html
# [18:58] <anne> is there an updated agenda?
# [18:58] <odinho> s/http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0204.html/-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0204.html HTML Working Group Changes email, April 2012/
# [18:58] * Joins: tantek_ (tantek@205.248.100.252)
# [18:58] <paulc> See also http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0205.html
# [18:58] <anne> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/May2012Agenda looks updated, sorry
# [18:58] <paulc> FAQ: http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/html5-stabilization-plan.html
# [18:58] <krisk> paulc: see both links
# [18:58] <krisk> paulc: starting with the WG Changes
# [18:59] <MikeSmith> Tantek, Ted have arrived
# [18:59] <krisk> ..Editor changes
# [18:59] <MikeSmith> Cynthia Shelly has arrived
# [18:59] * Quits: Russell_Berkoff (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [18:59] <krisk> paulc: any questions?
# [18:59] * Joins: janina (janina@66.228.34.147)
# [19:00] <krisk> paulc: stabilization plan is the second part
# [19:00] <odinho> s|FAQ: http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/html5-stabilization-plan.html|-> http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/html5-stabilization-plan.html FAQ (Draft HTML5 Stabilization Plan)|
# [19:00] * Quits: tantek (tantek@66.87.7.78) (Ping timeout)
# [19:00] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
# [19:01] <krisk> paulc: Q6 in the FAQ has decision policy changes
# [19:01] * ArtB wonders if there is an agreed date on the publication of LCWD#2 for HTML5
# [19:01] <krisk> paulc: many of these bugs are very strong, so if you are not familiar please read
# [19:02] * Joins: yosuke (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [19:02] <krisk> paulc: for example you can only comment on from LC1
# [19:02] <yosuke> Present+ Yosuke_Funahashi
# [19:02] <krisk> anne: is this allowed by the process?
# [19:02] <krisk> msj: it's happend before in WGs
# [19:03] <krisk> paulc: we do want the decision policy in place before starting LC2
# [19:03] <krisk> msj: two questions...
# [19:03] * Joins: nesta_ (nesta_@83.52.124.12)
# [19:03] * Quits: bryan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [19:03] <krisk> ..is this allowed
# [19:04] <krisk> msj: Do people think this works for the WG, regardless of it being allow or not
# [19:04] <krisk> anne: this seems to discourage comments
# [19:05] <krisk> glenn: we could have new bugs become exceptions
# [19:05] <tantek> q+ to say that implementation experience (browsers, web sites) is a good source of commentary for anything in LC.
# [19:05] * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
# [19:05] <krisk> plh: the process allows you to comment
# [19:06] <glenn> i.e., if a new bug is commented that wasn't previously commented, the WG may choose to process instead of ruling out of scope due to lack of prior LC1 comment
# [19:06] <krisk> plh: it's just that response to the comment will be 'too late'
# [19:06] * Quits: MFoladare (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
# [19:06] <Zakim> -Radhika_Roy
# [19:06] <krisk> anne: I don't like this..
# [19:06] <krisk> paulc: it could be move to HTML.Next
# [19:07] <krisk> msj: see bug #16676
# [19:07] <odinho> s/msj/mjs/g
# [19:08] <krisk> mjs: later in the spec development cycle adding new features doesn't work
# [19:08] <krisk> rubys: let's look at the proposed diff
# [19:09] * Joins: laura (laura@131.212.219.176)
# [19:10] <krisk> mjs: The key part of the diff is..
# [19:10] <krisk> mjs: The chairs agree we do need an exception
# [19:12] <krisk> mjs: For second and subsequent last calls, only comments related to changes made since the start of the previous last call will be accepted.
# [19:12] <adrianba> q+
# [19:12] * Zakim sees tantek, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [19:12] <MikeSmith> q?
# [19:12] * Zakim sees tantek, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [19:12] <krisk> This is to ensure we do not get into an infinite regress of new feedback; only new changes will get re-reviewed.
# [19:12] <paulc> ack tantek
# [19:12] <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to say that implementation experience (browsers, web sites) is a good source of commentary for anything in LC.
# [19:12] * Zakim sees adrianba on the speaker queue
# [19:12] <krisk> paulc: can we here from the room?
# [19:13] * Joins: richardschwerdtfe (RichS@205.248.100.252)
# [19:13] <odinho> s/here/hear/
# [19:13] <krisk> tantek: Getting feedback from vendors, authors will be tough (since spec is very large)
# [19:13] * Parts: richardschwerdtfe (RichS@205.248.100.252)
# [19:13] * Joins: richardschwerdtfe (RichS@205.248.100.252)
# [19:13] <ArtB> q+
# [19:13] * Zakim sees adrianba, ArtB on the speaker queue
# [19:14] <krisk> ..when browser vendors start to impl features, the find issues that have not changed.
# [19:14] <krisk> mjs: how did the CSS2.1 spec go?
# [19:15] <krisk> tantek: Issues were found and the spec went last call -> CR -> last call -> CR-> lastcall...
# [19:15] <krisk> paulc: we want to get to CR
# [19:16] <krisk> mjs: the w3c process, states that if you have made major changes then you need to go back to last call
# [19:17] <paulc> ack adrian
# [19:17] * Zakim sees ArtB on the speaker queue
# [19:17] * Joins: mark (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [19:17] <krisk> adrianb: the goal of overtime narrow comments, is a good goal
# [19:17] <krisk> s/narrow/narrowing/
# [19:18] <tantek> q+
# [19:18] * Zakim sees ArtB, tantek on the speaker queue
# [19:18] <krisk> adrianb: we should impl these changes and if they don't work then we can revisit
# [19:18] <paulc> ack artb
# [19:18] * Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
# [19:18] * Joins: miketaylr (miketaylr@70.112.101.224)
# [19:19] <paulc> ack tantek
# [19:19] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:19] <krisk> artb: Q6 seems reasonable, though I could see a issue coming up for the first time
# [19:19] <krisk> tanek: This is fixing the wrong problem..
# [19:19] <adrianba> s/tanek/tantek/
# [19:19] <krisk> tantek: I'd rather see the WG push for CR and then handle objections
# [19:20] <krisk> anne: most of the bugs are OK, except the limiting the scope of issues
# [19:20] <krisk> paulc: I'd like to hear from the rest of the room
# [19:21] <krisk> paulc: Bug 16676
# [19:21] * chaals wonders if someone can paste links into IRC
# [19:21] <anne> Also, in general, I think we should aim for less process, not more...
# [19:21] * anne http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/html5-stabilization-plan.html
# [19:21] <krisk> paulc: let's do a vote...
# [19:22] <krisk> paulc: room seems evenly split...
# [19:22] <mjs> Here's the part of the W3C Process that theoretically requires a new LC after substantive changes: http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html#return-to-wg
# [19:22] <krisk> paulc: can anyone not live with the change?
# [19:22] * chaals wonders if he *cannot* live with the change.
# [19:23] <krisk> paulc: seems like if the co-chairs push forward we won't get strong pushback
# [19:23] <krisk> mjs: please see the link I pasted in..
# [19:24] <MikeSmith> q?
# [19:24] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:24] <odinho> RRSAgent: make minutes
# [19:24] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html odinho
# [19:24] <rubys> q+
# [19:24] * Zakim sees rubys on the speaker queue
# [19:24] <rubys> q-
# [19:24] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:25] <krisk> paulc: giving notice..after next last call we will be going to CR
# [19:25] <krisk> paulc: bug 16841 is the feature freeze, basically no new features by default
# [19:26] <krisk> paulc bug 16674
# [19:27] <krisk> paulc: we are trying to not have changes just appearing in the spec by the editor
# [19:28] <krisk> paulc: rather changes should come from bugs
# [19:28] <odinho> i/choosing topics for F2F/Topic: Choosing topics for F2F
# [19:29] <krisk> paulc: bug 13306 is about getting editors to do work in a finite amount of time
# [19:29] <krisk> anne: woud like to talk about this in general
# [19:30] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [19:30] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html ArtB
# [19:30] <krisk> paulc: co-chairs have not processed the applications for editors, but will do so in the next few weeks
# [19:30] <krisk> anne: the main issue is that we have too much process already and now we are adding more..
# [19:31] <mjs> q+
# [19:31] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [19:31] * tantek agrees with annevk
# [19:31] * Quits: Lachy (Lachy@84.215.193.30) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
# [19:31] <krisk> anne: the amount of process is driving people away for the WG
# [19:32] <chaals> q+
# [19:32] * Zakim sees mjs, chaals on the speaker queue
# [19:32] <MikeSmith> q?
# [19:32] * Zakim sees mjs, chaals on the speaker queue
# [19:32] <plh> ack mjs
# [19:32] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [19:32] <adrianba> s/for the WG/from the WG/
# [19:32] <krisk> mjs: do you have any specific ways or thoughts on how this could be changed?
# [19:32] <tantek> q+ to say that current process (and proposed changes) appear(s) to favor spending time on process rather than technical discussion.
# [19:32] * Zakim sees chaals, tantek on the speaker queue
# [19:33] <krisk> mjs: my point of view the weight of the process can impact the group...
# [19:33] * Parts: janina (janina@66.228.34.147)
# [19:33] <odinho> i/Let's move into the stabilization topic/Topic: Stabilization
# [19:34] <tantek> q+ to also say flamewars need to be dealt with by chairs stepping in and shutting them down, not by additional process.
# [19:34] * Zakim sees chaals, tantek on the speaker queue
# [19:34] <krisk> mjs: unlike in the webapps WG, the wg was not able to get people to agree and threads never closed out
# [19:34] * Joins: janina (janina@205.248.100.252)
# [19:34] <chaals> [what maciej said. If there are concrete proposals to change the process and make it nicer, that would be great, but otherwise let's not have a process discussion]
# [19:34] <mark> q+
# [19:34] * Zakim sees chaals, tantek, mark on the speaker queue
# [19:34] <chaals> ack me
# [19:34] * Zakim sees tantek, mark on the speaker queue
# [19:34] <odinho> s|s/http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0204.html/-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Apr/0204.html HTML Working Group Changes email, April 2012/||
# [19:34] <plh> ack tantek
# [19:34] <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to say that current process (and proposed changes) appear(s) to favor spending time on process rather than technical discussion. and to also say flamewars need
# [19:34] <Zakim> ... to be dealt with by chairs stepping in and shutting them down, not by additional process.
# [19:34] * Zakim sees mark on the speaker queue
# [19:35] * chaals understands Anne's point. It is painful.
# [19:35] <krisk> tantek: the group has gotten to the point that people don't want to even help improve the process
# [19:36] <krisk> tantek: we are doing more process rather than technical discussions
# [19:36] <krisk> tantek: microdata+RDFa discussion is a good example of discussion just ending..
# [19:37] * chaals notes that no good deed goes unpunished, and nominates Tantek for chair
# [19:37] <krisk> tantek: chairs should just say in the list this is a perma thread..
# [19:37] * Quits: frankolivier (cdf86654@207.192.75.252) (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
# [19:38] <plh> q?
# [19:38] * Zakim sees mark on the speaker queue
# [19:38] <plh> ack mark
# [19:38] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:38] <mjs> q+
# [19:38] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [19:38] <MikeSmith> q?
# [19:38] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [19:39] <JF> +1 to what Cynthia is saying
# [19:39] <paulc> q+
# [19:39] * Zakim sees mjs, paulc on the speaker queue
# [19:39] <krisk> cythia: we at the point in 'shipping' that adding new stuff will be painful
# [19:40] <krisk> cynthia: it's better now than in the past
# [19:40] <paulc> ack mjs
# [19:40] * Zakim sees paulc on the speaker queue
# [19:40] <krisk> anne: thinks the group is worse
# [19:41] <MikeSmith> to be fair, much of the technical discussion takes place in bugzilla and so it's natural that we have less technical discussion on the list than other groups do
# [19:41] <krisk> mjs: for one reason or not the HTML spec has been a nexus of issues
# [19:41] <MikeSmith> q+ to mention CORS
# [19:41] * Zakim sees paulc, MikeSmith on the speaker queue
# [19:42] <plh> q+
# [19:42] * Zakim sees paulc, MikeSmith, plh on the speaker queue
# [19:42] <krisk> mjs: I would like alot less process, but in html after years the wg could not agree and move on
# [19:42] <krisk> mjs: for the next version I would not like to see this process used
# [19:43] * Joins: johnsim (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [19:43] * Quits: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
# [19:43] <krisk> mjs: just like in software the start it's a free for all..then overtime features/changes get more scoped
# [19:45] <krisk> paulc: the chairs didn't come with just a stabilzation plan, it was also came with a place for technical discussions to occur on new features
# [19:45] <krisk> paulc: we want to do both at the same time..
# [19:45] <anne> q+ to say this is not about new vs old
# [19:45] * Zakim sees paulc, MikeSmith, plh, anne on the speaker queue
# [19:45] <paulc> ack Mikes
# [19:45] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to mention CORS
# [19:45] * Zakim sees paulc, plh, anne on the speaker queue
# [19:46] <paulc> ack paulc
# [19:46] * Zakim sees plh, anne on the speaker queue
# [19:46] <krisk> mikesmith: not all webapps stuff is perfect
# [19:47] <krisk> mikesmith: in the WG we have people that are fundementally oposed
# [19:48] <krisk> mikesmith: I don't know of a process that can fix this problem
# [19:49] <krisk> plh: in CSS they struggled with CSS3 vs CSS2.1..
# [19:49] <rubys> mikesmith cited hybi and cors as examples
# [19:49] <chaals> [face to face time is helpful for webapps. There are a lot of people who have had a lot of time to talk to each other inside and outside the working group, and that is a key to such success as we have]
# [19:49] <janina> +1 to Chaas as a general rule
# [19:50] <chaals> ack pl
# [19:50] * Zakim sees anne on the speaker queue
# [19:50] <paulc> ack anne
# [19:50] <Zakim> anne, you wanted to say this is not about new vs old
# [19:50] <chaals> ack ann
# [19:50] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:50] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:50] <tantek> mikesmith - hybi was hijacked by a single individual who has a known history of trolling in w3c lists.
# [19:50] <krisk> plh: the chairs could push back to have people work together more than raising issues
# [19:51] <MikeSmith> tantek, that individual did not end up editing the spec
# [19:51] <tantek> anne: "the way things are being worked on are toxic in my opinion"
# [19:51] <krisk> paulc: do we think we need more time on the topic?
# [19:51] <krisk> mjs: we didn't discuss the community group
# [19:51] <JF> [I would like to add that "the other way" was and is seen by some groups as toxic as well]
# [19:51] * Quits: mjs (mjs@205.248.100.252) (Quit: mjs)
# [19:52] <krisk> paulc: ok we will discuss this after the coffee break
# [19:52] <tantek> MikeSmith - but he did make discussion on the list nearly impossible
# [19:52] <krisk> paulc: we will meet again at 11am
# [19:52] * chaals generally finds that there is nothing much toxic about processes, it is generally the case that they arise as an issue due to poor behaviour
# [19:53] <krisk> paulc: we are about 15 minutes behind the schedule overall..
# [19:54] * Joins: brucel (brucel@94.173.96.152)
# [19:55] * Quits: eric_carlson (eric_carls@205.248.100.252) (Quit: eric_carlson)
# [19:56] * MichaelC knows you're on break but will dial in so I don't miss the end of it
# [19:56] * Quits: rubys (rubys@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
# [19:56] * MichaelC zakim, call cooper-mit
# [19:56] * Zakim ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
# [19:56] <Zakim> +Cooper
# [19:58] * Quits: miketaylr (miketaylr@70.112.101.224) (Quit: Leaving...)
# [19:58] * Quits: joesteele (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [20:04] * Joins: rubys (rubys@205.248.100.252)
# [20:12] * Parts: brucel (brucel@94.173.96.152)
# [20:13] <eliot> is getting a message that "the conference is restricted at this time."
# [20:14] * MichaelC suspects number of ports has been exceeded
# [20:14] <Zakim> -Cooper
# [20:14] * MichaelC eliot, try now
# [20:14] * Joins: miketaylr (miketaylr@173.139.107.159)
# [20:14] <eliot> same thing. thanks for trying
# [20:14] * Quits: ArtB (abarsto@205.248.100.252) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [20:15] * MichaelC zakim, call cooper-mit
# [20:15] * Zakim ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
# [20:15] <Zakim> +Cooper
# [20:15] * MichaelC so next possibility is the conference wasn't scheduled for the full time span
# [20:15] * MichaelC not sure how to figure that one out
# [20:15] * MichaelC zakim, list conferences
# [20:15] * Zakim sees HTML_WG()12:00PM, SEC_WASWG()12:00PM, WAI_UAWG()1:00PM, TAG_Weekly()1:00PM active and no others scheduled to start in the next 15 minutes
# [20:17] * MichaelC I think problem is the call started using the usual HTML reservation, but no reservation was made for the rest of the day
# [20:17] * Joins: Lachy (Lachy@84.215.193.30)
# [20:17] <eliot> ahhhhhh
# [20:17] * MichaelC fixing it will require we all drop and rejoin
# [20:17] * MichaelC zakim, who's on the phone?
# [20:17] * Zakim sees on the phone: Clarke, +1.650.693.aaaa, Cooper
# [20:17] * MichaelC everyone's still on break so hard to interject and get that fixed
# [20:17] <Zakim> -Clarke
# [20:18] <eliot> when does break end?
# [20:18] * MichaelC suipposedly 10 minutes ago :)
# [20:18] * chaals is here to scribe, but break is still going. Presumably not too long...
# [20:18] <eliot> ;)
# [20:19] <MichaelC> zakim, room for 10 until 20:00?
# [20:19] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, MichaelC.
# [20:19] <MichaelC> zakim, room for 10 from now to 20:00?
# [20:19] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, MichaelC.
# [20:20] <Clarke> zakim, call Clarke
# [20:20] <Zakim> I am sorry, Clarke; I do not know a number for Clarke
# [20:21] <MichaelC> zakim, room for 10 for 6 hours?
# [20:21] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, MichaelC.
# [20:21] <MichaelC> zakim, room for 10 for 360 minutes?
# [20:21] <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; conference Team_(html-wg)18:13Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 360 minutes until 0013Z
# [20:21] <Zakim> -Cooper
# [20:21] * MichaelC Clarke, eliot, try now using code 26631
# [20:22] <Clarke> OK
# [20:22] <Zakim> - +1.650.693.aaaa
# [20:22] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
# [20:22] <Zakim> Attendees were Radhika_Roy, tantek, eliot, Clarke, +1.650.693.aaaa, hober, Cooper
# [20:22] <MichaelC> zakim, this will be 26631
# [20:22] <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; I see Team_(html-wg)18:13Z scheduled to start now
# [20:22] <MichaelC> zakim, call cooper-mit
# [20:22] <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
# [20:22] <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)18:13Z has now started
# [20:22] <Zakim> +Cooper
# [20:22] <Zakim> +??P0
# [20:22] <Clarke> zakim, ??P0 is me
# [20:22] <Zakim> +Clarke; got it
# [20:22] * Joins: eric_carlson (eric_carls@205.248.100.252)
# [20:22] <Zakim> + +1.650.693.aaaa
# [20:23] * Joins: f2f (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [20:23] * Joins: joesteele (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [20:23] <chaals> scribe: chaals
# [20:23] <chaals> q+
# [20:23] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [20:23] <janina> zakim, who's on the phone?
# [20:23] <Zakim> On the phone I see Cooper, Clarke, +1.650.693.aaaa
# [20:23] <chaals> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
# [20:23] <RRSAgent> ok, chaals; I will not start a new log at midnight
# [20:23] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [20:23] <eliot> zakim, microsoft is eliot
# [20:23] <Zakim> +eliot; got it
# [20:24] <janina> zakim, aaaa is F2F
# [20:24] <Zakim> +F2F; got it
# [20:24] <eliot> thanks, MichaelC!
# [20:24] * MichaelC np
# [20:24] <chaals> q?
# [20:24] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [20:24] <chaals> ack me
# [20:24] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:24] <chaals> Topic: ISSUE-199
# [20:25] <MikeSmith> issue-199?
# [20:25] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-199
# [20:25] <trackbot> ISSUE-199 -- Define complete processing requirements for ARIA attributes -- open
# [20:25] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/199
# [20:25] <chaals> mjs: This is about hooking things up to ARIA - what is required...
# [20:25] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-199
# [20:25] * MichaelC would help for mjs to be closer to mic
# [20:25] <chaals> ... there are two proposals for this issue. Maybe we can get closer to consensus through discussion - they seem to be in the same spirit but different in technical details
# [20:26] <odinho> s|http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/199|-> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/199 ISSUE-199 -- Define complete processing requirements for ARIA attributes|
# [20:26] <chaals> michaelc: Two proposals - I submitted one, Ted submitted one. And there is a critique that Hixie submitted.
# [20:26] <MikeSmith> -> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ARIA_Processing Michael Cooper's ARIA Processing proposal
# [20:27] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [20:27] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [20:27] <chaals> ... gone through them. I think we only have a couple of technical disagreements and want to focus on those. The rest is formality abou how we express things in the spec rather than technical difference - it is stil important to ensure we all nderstand the same from what the spec says.
# [20:27] * Joins: mjs (mjs@205.248.100.252)
# [20:27] <chaals> ... First issue: should role be a single token, or a list of tokens. In my proposal it is a list, primarily for forward compatibility when new roles are introduced you can still use a fallback role.
# [20:27] <chaals> ... user agent would process first value it recognises
# [20:27] * Joins: bryan (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [20:27] <chaals> Ted: Is this a difference?
# [20:28] <chaals> michaelC: technical disagreement is whether there is value in setting up a list of tokens rather than a single value.
# [20:28] <chaals> mjs: can we enumerate the issues, then go through them?
# [20:28] * chaals yes
# [20:29] <MikeSmith> -> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/User:Eoconnor/ISSUE-199 Ted O'Connor's ARIA Processing proposal
# [20:29] <chaals> michaelC: second issue is how we clarify the forward-compatibility model.
# [20:29] <chaals> ... think my proposal was unclear but I am not sure what would make it more clear.
# [20:29] <chaals> ... Third: How to make it clear that the first-recognised token gets processed. Ian had "first token", which isn't what I meant.
# [20:30] <chaals> ... Fourth: allowing properties to be restricted where they are not appropriate, or allow processing to determine whether they are recognised when encoutnered.
# [20:30] <chaals> ... Fifth: Should ARIA stuff be defined in HTML, or in ARIA.
# [20:30] <chaals> ... Sixth: What processing shouldbe defined in HTML, what should be defined by ARIA UA implementation guide.
# [20:31] <chaals> s/shouldbe/should be/
# [20:31] <richardschwerdtfe> q+
# [20:31] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe on the speaker queue
# [20:31] <chaals> Ted: nothing to add.
# [20:31] <mjs> ach richardschwerdtfe
# [20:31] <richardschwerdtfe> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#mapping_role
# [20:31] <chaals> rich: If you look at user agent implementation guide...
# [20:31] <mjs> ack richardschwerdtfe
# [20:31] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:31] * MichaelC not hearing rich well either
# [20:31] * Joins: Mark_Vic_ (Mark_Vicke@205.248.100.252)
# [20:31] * MichaelC glad cmn is a fast scribe ;)
# [20:31] * Parts: Mark_Vic_ (Mark_Vicke@205.248.100.252)
# [20:31] <chaals> s|http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#mapping_role|-> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#mapping_role aria ua implementation guide
# [20:32] * Joins: Mark_Vic_ (Mark_Vicke@205.248.100.252)
# [20:32] <chaals> ... says how to handle mapping between aria and native platform.
# [20:32] * Quits: joesteele (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
# [20:32] * Joins: joesteele (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [20:32] <chaals> ... says where aria roles override host semantics, DOM doesn't change. UA must still map the aria roles in the accessibility interfaces.
# [20:32] <chaals> Ted: Which issue is this?
# [20:33] <chaals> Rich: Did you use what was here when you defined role mapping?
# [20:33] <chaals> Ted: in my proposal WAI ARIA role is the first non-abstract role found - think that is the same.
# [20:33] <chaals> Rich: Reason we don't just point to the table in the guide?
# [20:33] <chaals> Avk: the text there is less specific.
# [20:33] <chaals> s/table/role-mapping table/
# [20:34] * Joins: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169)
# [20:34] <chaals> Rich: If we put this in HTML5 spec, then change ARIA in v2, will that create a problem down the road?
# [20:34] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [20:34] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [20:34] <chaals> ... e.g. changingthe processing rules to deal with custom roles
# [20:34] <chaals> AvK: Will the change be compatible
# [20:34] <chaals> Rich: Not clear. How would we handle sub-roles available in the mac platform?
# [20:34] <chaals> Cyns: Haven't started discussion on that
# [20:35] <chaals> AvK: If changes are made, we change the specs.
# [20:35] <chaals> Ted: If HTML.next changes to be less restrictive than HTML5 I don't see a problem. If you make an incompatible change, that can be a problem.
# [20:35] <chaals> Rich: Don't think there is an issue today. But changing HTML5 is harder.
# [20:35] <chaals> AvK: Presumably implementation guide needs to be stable to be referenced.
# [20:35] <chaals> q+
# [20:35] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [20:36] <mjs> q+
# [20:36] * Zakim sees chaals, mjs on the speaker queue
# [20:36] <chaals> ... if change is incompatible you might have an adoption problem because it would break usage.
# [20:36] <chaals> ... if user agents will change anyway, the spec can be updated too. We have done that with DOM specs...
# [20:36] <chaals> s/DOM/eg DOM/
# [20:36] <MikeSmith> q?
# [20:36] * Zakim sees chaals, mjs on the speaker queue
# [20:37] <chaals> ack me
# [20:37] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [20:37] <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith
# [20:37] <MikeSmith> chaals: key question is, some specs are easier and faster to update than others
# [20:37] <MikeSmith> ... HTML has shown itself to be relatively slow to update
# [20:37] <MikeSmith> ... and to be honest ARIA has been slow also
# [20:37] <MikeSmith> ... but ARIA will likely be updated sooner than HTML
# [20:38] <richardschwerdtfe> q?
# [20:38] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [20:38] <mjs> ack mjs
# [20:38] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:38] <chaals> scribe: chaals
# [20:38] * Joins: cyns (cdf86654@128.30.52.43)
# [20:38] <hober> q+
# [20:38] * Zakim sees hober on the speaker queue
# [20:38] <chaals> mjs: might make sense for role to be in ARIA rather than host, but ARIA chose not to do that - doesn't give a sufficeint definition of how role works. That option has previously not been taken.
# [20:39] <chaals> s/than HTML/than HTML - on the other hand, more people might read HTML.../
# [20:39] <richardschwerdtfe> q+
# [20:39] * Zakim sees hober, richardschwerdtfe on the speaker queue
# [20:39] <chaals> mjs: not sure which issue we are discussing. Let's try getting through the 6 issues listed here and add new questions.
# [20:39] <hober> q-
# [20:39] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe on the speaker queue
# [20:40] <odinho> s/ach richardschwerdtfe//
# [20:40] <MikeSmith> -> http://annevankesteren.nl/2011/01/wai-aria-objection (some context for the record) "My Formal Objection to WAI-ARIA"
# [20:40] <chaals> rich: want to make people aware that aria will be used in other host languages like SVG. If we define the processing differently in different host languages that could be problematic - might be easier to fix the issues with definition of processing in the aria implementation guide
# [20:40] <chaals> ... no issue with ted's text, worried about looking forward.
# [20:41] <chaals> mjs: First issue - should role be single token or list of tokens? Ted isn't sure we disagree.
# [20:41] <chaals> Ted: It's a list in both proposals.
# [20:41] <chaals> Cyns: Was Hixie's critique listing a single one?
# [20:41] <chaals> Ted: That isn't on the table, so we don't need to discuss further
# [20:41] * chaals wonders if he should record "resolutions" as RESOLUTION
# [20:41] * MichaelC going to try muting non conference lines to see if it helps with duplexing
# [20:41] <tantek> I'd prefer it was defined similar to other tokenlists, like 'class' and 'rel' attributes.
# [20:41] <chaals> RESOLUTION: we have lists of tokens
# [20:41] * MichaelC zakim, mute cooper
# [20:41] * Zakim Cooper should now be muted
# [20:41] * MichaelC zakim, mute eliot
# [20:41] * Zakim eliot should now be muted
# [20:42] <tantek> we don't need a new type of tokenlist
# [20:42] * MichaelC zakim, mute clarke
# [20:42] * Zakim Clarke should now be muted
# [20:42] <chaals> mjs: second - clarifying forward compatibility.
# [20:42] <MichaelC> ack me
# [20:42] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe on the speaker queue
# [20:42] * plh zakim, who is on the phone?
# [20:42] * Zakim sees on the phone: Cooper (muted), Clarke (muted), F2F, eliot (muted)
# [20:42] * chaals notes we cant hear you here
# [20:42] <plh> zakim, unmute Cooper
# [20:42] <Zakim> Cooper should no longer be muted
# [20:42] <mjs> MichaelC: can you expand on the "clarifying forward compatibility" issue?
# [20:42] * plh magic
# [20:42] * hober tantek: my proposal uses the same machinery as those other token lists, IIRC
# [20:42] <tantek> thanks hober
# [20:42] <chaals> s/MichaelC: can you expand on the "clarifying forward compatibility" issue?//
# [20:42] <chaals> s/thanks hober//
# [20:43] <tantek> btw, how can things be different in SVG? Isn't SVG just part of HTML now?
# [20:43] <chaals> MC: Fprward compat model. You can provide multiple roles - newer better one first, followed by old one that is beter known. UA takes the first role it recognises.
# [20:43] <plh> zakim, Cooper is really MichaelC
# [20:43] <Zakim> +MichaelC; got it
# [20:43] <shepazu> tantek, what does that mean, functionally?
# [20:43] <chaals> ... think that was not clear enough in the change proposal that led ot people raising questions. Do we agree with that model, and how can we clarify?
# [20:43] <anne> fwiw, using RESOLUTION seems wrong, as we can't resolve anything at a F2F
# [20:43] <chaals> Ted: Both proposals on the table are saying the same thing.
# [20:44] <tantek> regarding the what if 'role' was defined differently in HTML and SVG - I don't see how that's possible.
# [20:44] <chaals> [anne, I know. But recording that at least the people at the meeting agreed on something seems helpful for finding out what happened when reading two days of minutes.]
# [20:44] * MichaelC not hearing question
# [20:44] <chaals> Ted: non-abstract roles get skipped... otherwise I think we agree.
# [20:44] <shepazu> (tantek, I agree that that doesn't seem like the right way to frame it, but there are likely to be different role values for SVG than HTML)
# [20:44] <chaals> mjs: Do you agree with ted's charcacterisation that we have the same model?
# [20:45] <chaals> ... (modulo clarifying that abtracgt roles don't get picked up)?
# [20:45] <chaals> s/skipped/skipped in my change proposal/
# [20:45] <tantek> shepazu - I think it's best for web authors if the 'role' attribute in SVG works just like it does in HTML. similar to 'class' etc.
# [20:45] * plh Michael? do you agree?
# [20:45] <shepazu> s/charcacterisation/characterization/
# [20:45] * chaals mjs: Do you agree with ted's charcacterisation that we have the same model?
# [20:45] <chaals> MC: Yes. This issue answer Ian's critique.
# [20:46] <chaals> AvK: Are implementations doing this?
# [20:46] <chaals> s/this/processing this way/
# [20:46] <odinho> s/abtracgt/abstract/
# [20:46] <shepazu> (tantek, the processing and such, yes, but a graphics language needs different roles than a text language)
# [20:46] <chaals> Rich: believe they take the first recognised non-abstract role.
# [20:46] <chaals> mjs: So answer seems to be "yes, implementations do this".
# [20:46] <chaals> mjs: So second issue seems to have agreement in intent. Anyone disagree with that model?
# [20:47] <tantek> shepazu, I can see adding more roles - but that's up to the ARIA spec IMHO, not SVG. The abstract definition of the 'role' attribute as a holder of such values should be the same in SVG as it is in HTML.
# [20:47] <chaals> RESOLUTION: Processing is to take the first recognised non-abstract role.
# [20:47] * Joins: BobLund (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [20:47] <tantek> "first"? so it's not a list not a set?
# [20:47] <chaals> mjs: Third issue sounds like a restatement of the issue we just discussed.
# [20:47] <tantek> er, is 'role' a list not a set then?
# [20:47] <shepazu> (tantek, I agree that role should work just as in HTML)
# [20:47] <chaals> MC: I think the first three issues I raised are addressed now.
# [20:48] <tantek> so 'role' is unlike 'class' and 'rel' then, which are *unordered* sets of values.
# [20:48] <chaals> mjs: Fourth - disallowing properties where they are not appropriate, or make processing model ignore them where they are not relevant.
# [20:48] * Quits: myakura (myakura@221.171.5.98) (Client exited)
# [20:48] <richardschwerdtfe> q+
# [20:48] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe on the speaker queue
# [20:48] <chaals> MC: Easier to say "all properties can be used, but they are not recognised if irrelevant". Would be a big task to take the alternative and document where they cannot be used.
# [20:48] <chaals> q+
# [20:48] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe, chaals on the speaker queue
# [20:49] <chaals> Ted: There is a distinction between processing and author-conformance requirements. Would prefer leaving author confromance to aria spec to define.
# [20:49] <chaals> mjs: Do the proposals defer this point as written?
# [20:50] <chaals> Ted: MC proposal has text where each properties is defined and text saying where they an be used.
# [20:50] <plh> ack rich
# [20:50] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [20:50] <chaals> rich: I think HTML5 spec is clear on where you can apply roles or not. Tried in user agent impl guide not to do the error correct - leave it to authoring to deal with that.
# [20:51] <chaals> ... ie if checkbox is not allowed on scrollbars, it is flagged as non-conforming, and test tools should flag those as errors. UA should not try to repair them.
# [20:51] <chaals> mjs: Think this is different to what we are discussing.
# [20:51] <chaals> ... do you mean if a role is specified that doesn't fit, and ted/MC were discussing what happens when state/properties are applied in cases they should not be relevant.
# [20:51] <chaals> q?
# [20:51] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [20:52] <chaals> rich: don't want the browser to have to solve the problem where things are added in the wrong place.
# [20:52] <chaals> ted: We are reflecting what the author wrote. It would be weird to have markup that did not get to the DOM.
# [20:52] <mjs> q+
# [20:52] * Zakim sees chaals, mjs on the speaker queue
# [20:52] <chaals> ack me
# [20:52] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [20:52] <mjs> ack chaals
# [20:52] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [20:53] <MichaelC> q+ to say the reason I raise this is the HTML spec currently documents that role can't be used on certain elements, or can only be used with certain values; while ARIA says some states and properties can only be used with certain roles and some can be used on any elements; those two make a complicated interaction that I don't know whether to document or say "implement the intersection of the...
# [20:53] * Zakim sees mjs, MichaelC on the speaker queue
# [20:53] <MichaelC> ...two specs"
# [20:54] <mjs> ack mjs
# [20:54] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
# [20:54] <chaals> CMN: THink we need to define in the processing model that erro correction does get done in the browser - and then make it clear which things get corrected where.
# [20:55] <chaals> mjs: Not sure what the specific difference is between the proposals
# [20:55] <chaals> Ted: nor am I
# [20:55] <mjs> ack MichaelC
# [20:55] <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say the reason I raise this is the HTML spec currently documents that role can't be used on certain elements, or can only be used with certain values; while
# [20:55] <Zakim> ... ARIA says some states and properties can only be used with certain roles and some can be used on any elements; those two make a complicated interaction that I don't know
# [20:55] <Zakim> ... whether to document or say "implement the intersection of the...
# [20:55] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:55] <odinho> s/...two specs"//
# [20:55] * Joins: J_Voracek (J_Voracek@70.123.106.75)
# [20:55] <J_Voracek>
# [20:55] * Quits: J_Voracek (J_Voracek@70.123.106.75) (Quit: disconnected: Jace Voracek - Jace@Jace-Place.com)
# [20:56] <chaals> MC: Do we want to document the intersection and specify it, or point to the two sets of rules and tell implementors to figure it out?
# [20:56] * Joins: J_Voracek (J_Voracek@70.123.106.75)
# [20:56] <chaals> q+ to say please specify it.
# [20:56] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [20:56] <chaals> mjs: Is there a part of the proposal that addresses this question?
# [20:57] <chaals> MC: My proposal doesn't address that question. I think failure to address it led to concern - don't know if they wanted more or less...
# [20:57] <chaals> mjs: MC is suggesting we may want to define something that neither proposal does. That isn't a point of difference, it is a separate question to be decided.
# [20:57] <chaals> q-
# [20:57] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:57] <chaals> Ted: sure
# [20:58] <chaals> [general agreement that we aren't facing a disagreement to resolve]
# [20:58] <chaals> mjs: Should aria 'stuff' be defined in HTML or in ARIA specs?
# [20:59] <chaals> MC: In my proposal I defined all state and property attributes. Concern was that redefining these in HTML leadas to duplication -> error. This is auto-generated so should be possible to keep in synch. Agree that duplication is potentially problematic.
# [20:59] <chaals> ... Did it because I think HTML needs to be clear what is happening. Countr-proposal was where math/svg in HTML just defers to those specs.
# [20:59] <richardschwerdtfe> q?
# [20:59] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [21:00] <chaals> ... difference is that ARIA doesn't have a root element to anchor the definition from. But that might not matter - should it be removed?
# [21:00] <richardschwerdtfe> q+
# [21:00] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe on the speaker queue
# [21:00] <shepazu> q+
# [21:00] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfe, shepazu on the speaker queue
# [21:00] <chaals> Ted: Think the ARIA documents define what the properties mean and how to use them. duplicating that is a potential source of synchronisation error later - and at minimum introduces a maintenance cost that I don't thnk we need to incur.
# [21:01] <chaals> ... you already have to read the referenced specs to implenent HTML so not sure what is different here.
# [21:01] <mjs> ach richardschwerdtfe
# [21:01] <mjs> ack richardschwerdtfe
# [21:01] * Zakim sees shepazu on the speaker queue
# [21:01] <chaals> rich: THink the ARIA spec should define values for role, state, property. We also have to address other host languages. So I agree with Ted.
# [21:01] <chaals> ... anything we do needs to be coordinated anyway with other hosts.
# [21:01] <tantek> shouldn't defining 'role' be similar to the definition for the 'style' attribute between HTML and the CSS 'style' attribute spec?
# [21:02] <MichaelC> q+ to say I was also concerned about impacts of the two technologies evolving on different timelines; that was discussed earlier today but couldn't follow well
# [21:02] * Zakim sees shepazu, MichaelC on the speaker queue
# [21:02] <chaals> ... HTML should define restrictions it makes specifically to HTML, if necessary.
# [21:02] <tantek> http://www.w3.org/TR/css-style-attr/
# [21:02] <mjs> ack shepazu
# [21:02] * Zakim sees MichaelC on the speaker queue
# [21:02] * chaals hears rich saying what tantek said
# [21:02] <tantek> Thanks chaals - I was hoping we were saying similar things but I wasn't sure.
# [21:02] <tantek> and I wanted to provide a concrete existing example (perhaps to mimic)
# [21:03] <chaals> shepazu: What do people think would be different between svg and html in hosting aria. SVG does not want to redefine processing or rules from ARIA if we can get away with it. There are different roles required, but don't think there would be a difference in processing.
# [21:03] <mjs> ack MichaelC
# [21:03] <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say I was also concerned about impacts of the two technologies evolving on different timelines; that was discussed earlier today but couldn't follow well
# [21:03] <chaals> rich: Think we are in violent agreement.
# [21:03] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [21:03] * shepazu shoots rich in a non-violent way :P
# [21:03] <chaals> MC: Not sure what it means for HTML5 conformance if ARIA evolves on a different timeline. Whatever direction we go seems OK though.
# [21:04] <chaals> mjs: Seems general sense of the room is to delegate the definitions to ARIA by reference, rather than copy them in.
# [21:04] <tantek> for the HTML5 definition of the 'style' attribute see: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/global-attributes.html#the-style-attribute which links to http://www.w3.org/TR/css-style-attr/ for what goes into the attribute (complete syntax of it).
# [21:04] <chaals> RESOLUTION: leave the definitions in the ARIA spec and reference them from HTML
# [21:04] <tantek> perhaps entire syntax of 'role' attribute must be defined in the ARIA spec, and have it defined by reference in HTML5.
# [21:05] <chaals> mjs: What processing should be defined in HTML, what should be defined by ARIA?
# [21:05] <anne> tantek: as long as they use the same definition of space characters
# [21:05] <tantek> anne - agreed
# [21:05] <chaals> MC: Intended to provide informative explanation of what is define in user agent guide, but reference that for normative requirement. I think that was confusing.
# [21:05] <tantek> anne - is there any such issue of space characters in CSS style attr?
# [21:05] <chaals> ... how much should be included even if only in an informative manner (if any).
# [21:06] <anne> tantek: no because that takes CSS
# [21:06] <chaals> Ted: Proposal defines processing for role, because it wasn't available directly from ARIA. For same reason as before, I would rather have this defined in ARIA spec.
# [21:06] <mjs> q?
# [21:06] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [21:06] <chaals> [no further comment]
# [21:07] * chaals agrees with ted.
# [21:07] <tantek> anne, if ARIA normatively references HTML for definition of space characters, would that be sufficient?
# [21:07] <chaals> mjs: If proposals are aligned, except where ted did it different consensus follows ted, it sounds like you guys could align a single proposal.
# [21:07] <chaals> ... MC, Ted, can you do that?
# [21:07] <chaals> Ted: Sure...
# [21:08] * MichaelC suspects minor tweaks to Ted's version can make it
# [21:08] * Joins: rniwa (rniwa@70.89.66.218)
# [21:08] <anne> tantek: it's fine if they copy it
# [21:08] <chaals> ACTION: Ted to outline a timeline for producing an aligned change proposal to address ISSUEE-199. Due in 2 weeks
# [21:08] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
# [21:08] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Ted
# [21:08] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [21:08] <tantek> ok - I just figure by reference would have less chance of drift over time.
# [21:09] <anne> tantek: but I guess you really want to reuse the definition of space-separated attribute values (forgot the name of that)
# [21:09] <chaals> [adjourned for lunch: 1 hour]
# [21:09] <tantek> also by reference avoids temptation to tweak the definition for "editorial" reasons which end up being functional.
# [21:09] * hober chaals: i think i've managed to avoid teaching trackbot how to assign me actions :)
# [21:09] <tantek> anne - right
# [21:10] <chaals> trackbot, who is hober?
# [21:10] <trackbot> Sorry, chaals, I don't understand 'trackbot, who is hober?'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
# [21:10] * Quits: eric_carlson (eric_carls@205.248.100.252) (Quit: eric_carlson)
# [21:10] <Clarke> If I drop the phone, will I be able to reconnect after lunch?
# [21:10] <plh> yes, you should be
# [21:10] <eliot> what are you doing?
# [21:10] * Quits: BobLund (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [21:10] * chaals thinks you will clarkes
# [21:10] <eliot> lunch?
# [21:10] <plh> yes
# [21:10] * MichaelC thanks all - ping if needed to rejoin, otherwise will stay off
# [21:10] <eliot> ok
# [21:10] <Zakim> -MichaelC
# [21:10] <Zakim> -eliot
# [21:10] <chaals> trackbot, status?
# [21:10] * trackbot knows about the following 29 users: Lachlan, Matthew, Larry, Michael[tm], Doug, Gregory, Philippe, Everett, Julian, Laura, Shawn, Cynthia, Henri, Maciej, James, Adrian, Frank, Richard, Ben, Joshue, Kris, Manu, Sam, Michael, Ian, Paul, Janina, David, Steve
# [21:10] <Zakim> -Clarke
# [21:11] <odinho> s/yes, you should be//
# [21:11] <odinho> s/what are you doing?//
# [21:11] <odinho> s/lunch?//
# [21:11] <odinho> s/yes//
# [21:11] <odinho> s/ok//
# [21:12] * Quits: ddorwin (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [21:12] * odinho RRSAgent, generate minutes
# [21:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html odinho
# [21:12] * Quits: mark (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [21:12] * Quits: Lachy (Lachy@84.215.193.30) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
# [21:13] * Quits: rubys (rubys@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
# [21:18] * Quits: yosuke (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [21:19] * Joins: tantek_ (tantek@205.248.100.252)
# [21:19] * Quits: anne (annevk@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
# [21:19] * Quits: joesteele (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [21:19] * Quits: Mark_Vic_ (Mark_Vicke@205.248.100.252) (Connection reset by peer)
# [21:21] * Quits: tantek (tantek@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
# [21:21] * Quits: tantek_ (tantek@205.248.100.252) (Connection reset by peer)
# [21:21] * Joins: tantek (tantek@205.248.100.252)
# [21:22] * Joins: rubys (rubys@205.248.100.252)
# [21:22] * Quits: mjs (mjs@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
# [21:24] * Quits: plh (plh@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [21:26] * Quits: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169) (Ping timeout)
# [21:28] * Quits: tantek (tantek@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
# [21:29] * Quits: acolwell (acolwell@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
# [21:29] * Quits: rubys (rubys@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
# [21:29] * Joins: richardschwerdt-1 (RichS@205.248.100.252)
# [21:29] * Quits: richardschwerdtfe (RichS@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
# [21:30] * Joins: drublic (drublic@93.132.244.75)
# [21:32] * Quits: richardschwerdt-1 (RichS@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
# [21:34] * Quits: miketaylr (miketaylr@173.139.107.159) (Quit: Leaving...)
# [21:34] * Quits: hiroki (h_yamada@128.30.52.28) (Client exited)
# [21:37] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@205.248.100.252) (Connection reset by peer)
# [21:39] * Quits: laura (laura@131.212.219.176) (Quit: laura)
# [21:42] * Quits: glenn (gadams@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
# [21:47] * Joins: miketaylr (miketaylr@70.112.101.224)
# [21:50] * Quits: J_Voracek (J_Voracek@70.123.106.75) (Quit: disconnected: Jace Voracek - Jace@Jace-Place.com)
# [22:01] * Joins: frankolivier (cdf86654@109.169.29.95)
# [22:04] * chaals wonders if mikesmith can add hober/TedO'C to http://www.w3.org/Team/2005/08/jdbe.php3?table=ircnicks&db=tracker&mode=Choose+Table
# [22:05] * Joins: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169)
# [22:10] * Quits: paulc (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [22:14] * Joins: timeless (u4015@88.198.6.68)
# [22:14] <timeless> Scribe: Josh_Soref
# [22:14] <timeless> scribenick: timeless
# [22:14] * Quits: magnus (magnus@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
# [22:14] <timeless> present+ Josh_Soref
# [22:14] * Joins: acolwell (acolwell@205.248.100.252)
# [22:15] * Joins: eric_carlson (eric_carls@205.248.100.252)
# [22:15] * Joins: glenn (gadams@205.248.100.252)
# [22:15] * Joins: plh (plh@128.30.52.28)
# [22:15] * Joins: anne (annevk@205.248.100.252)
# [22:16] * Joins: ddorwin (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [22:16] <timeless> Topic: Canvas Hit Testing
# [22:17] <timeless> Zakim, pointer?
# [22:17] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, timeless.
# [22:17] <timeless> Zakim, what is this?
# [22:17] <Zakim> I don't understand your question, timeless.
# [22:17] * Joins: richardschwerdtfe (RichS@205.248.100.252)
# [22:17] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
# [22:17] <Zakim> On the phone I see F2F
# [22:17] * Joins: mjs (mjs@205.248.100.252)
# [22:17] * Joins: abarsto (abarsto@205.248.100.252)
# [22:17] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
# [22:17] <timeless> Zakim, Josh_Soref has joined F2F
# [22:17] <Zakim> sorry, timeless, I do not recognize a party named 'Josh_Soref'
# [22:17] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [22:17] <eliot> zakim, microsoft is me
# [22:17] <Zakim> +eliot; got it
# [22:17] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@205.248.100.252)
# [22:18] <eliot> zakim, mute me
# [22:18] <Zakim> eliot should now be muted
# [22:18] * Joins: hiroki (h_yamada@128.30.52.28)
# [22:18] <timeless> frankolivier: we have two proposals
# [22:18] <timeless> ... very close
# [22:18] <timeless> ... if we combine the two
# [22:18] <timeless> ... i think we'll have something that solves one of the accessibility proposals for <canvas>
# [22:19] <timeless> ... in both proposals, there's something about defining a path
# [22:19] <timeless> ... in one it's an element in the canvas
# [22:19] <timeless> ... in the other, it could be in the DOM, or a lightweight object
# [22:19] <timeless> ... the other spec text
# [22:19] * Joins: Russell_Berkoff (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [22:19] <timeless> ... that's been proposed for <canvas>
# [22:19] <timeless> ... don't solve accessibility issues
# [22:19] * Joins: BobLund (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [22:19] <timeless> ... i'd like to address them later
# [22:19] <Russell_Berkoff> Present+ Russell_Berkoff(Samsung)
# [22:19] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [22:19] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [22:20] <timeless> hober: it's true that the spec changes in my proposal cover more UCs than just accessibility needs
# [22:20] <timeless> ... in this case
# [22:20] <timeless> ... that's a good thing
# [22:20] * Joins: magnus (magnus@205.248.100.252)
# [22:20] * Joins: yosuke (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [22:20] <timeless> ... the accessibility requirements can be addressed with requirements that can be used for other things as well
# [22:21] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: hober, can you walk us through the proposed changes?
# [22:21] <timeless> hober: sure, let me pull up the diffs
# [22:21] <anne> http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2012-March/035239.html
# [22:22] <timeless> s|http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2012-March/035239.html|-> http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2012-March/035239.html Canvas v5 API additions|
# [22:22] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [22:22] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
# [22:22] <timeless> hober: the proposed changes
# [22:22] <timeless> ... allow drawing elipses
# [22:22] <timeless> ... paths
# [22:22] <timeless> ... text alignment paths
# [22:23] <timeless> ... and define a cursor
# [22:23] <timeless> ... for each accessible region
# [22:23] <timeless> ... new text metrics
# [22:23] <timeless> ... Hixie's email covers more changes than in my proposal
# [22:23] * timeless hober "... paths" is probably wrong
# [22:23] * timeless what was that supposed to be?
# [22:23] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: there was this measure-text piece
# [22:23] <timeless> ... how does that fit in?
# [22:24] <timeless> hober: you are using this for canvas control
# [22:24] <timeless> ... for some complex effect
# [22:24] <timeless> ... and have something corresponding to a label
# [22:25] <timeless> ... being able to make the area around that text clickable
# [22:25] <timeless> ... easily requires metrics access
# [22:25] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: so it's for the purpose of calculating the text region
# [22:25] <timeless> frankolivier: are there two separate issues
# [22:25] <timeless> ... 1. UI controls
# [22:25] <timeless> ... 2. defining text
# [22:25] <timeless> anne: with text metrics, there's already api
# [22:25] <timeless> ... these are additions
# [22:26] <timeless> ... for graphics applications, since you don't always know which font is going to be used
# [22:26] <timeless> ... some things will need that information
# [22:26] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: so this is more than just hit-testing
# [22:26] <Zakim> +??P3
# [22:26] <timeless> anne: Hixie looked at <canvas> feedback over the last 3 years
# [22:26] <Clarke> zakim, ??P3 is me
# [22:26] <Zakim> +Clarke; got it
# [22:26] <timeless> ... and added all the things that people were requesting with good use cases
# [22:27] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
# [22:27] <Zakim> On the phone I see F2F, eliot (muted), Clarke
# [22:27] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: when we add hit region
# [22:27] <timeless> ... there's additional parameters that were added
# [22:27] <timeless> ... tied to lightweight JSON objects
# [22:27] <timeless> ... for accessibility
# [22:27] <Clarke> zakim, mute me
# [22:27] <Zakim> Clarke should now be muted
# [22:27] <timeless> ... if you have these things, i need to have a test tool
# [22:27] <timeless> ... analyzing for accessibility find this
# [22:27] <timeless> ... and it needs to be mappable to the api
# [22:28] <timeless> hober: for accessibility
# [22:28] <timeless> ... you'd listen for the API call
# [22:28] * Quits: nesta_ (nesta_@83.52.124.12) (Quit: nesta_)
# [22:28] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: these are browser plugins that do this
# [22:28] <timeless> ... how do you overload this?
# [22:28] <timeless> anne: in JS you can overload anything
# [22:29] <timeless> ... and a browser extension can do this
# [22:29] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: these things are lightweight
# [22:29] <timeless> ... and they might belong to the DOM?
# [22:29] <timeless> hober: there are two things
# [22:29] <timeless> ... elements themselves
# [22:29] <timeless> ... or a description of a javascript object
# [22:29] <timeless> ... in terms of wiring up to the Accessibility Tree
# [22:29] <timeless> ... that could be done by the UA
# [22:29] * Quits: mjs (mjs@205.248.100.252) (Quit: mjs)
# [22:29] * Joins: paulc (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [22:30] <timeless> ... if one hit region is contained in another
# [22:30] <timeless> ... that could get complicated
# [22:30] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: how do you make those elements keyboard navigable?
# [22:30] <timeless> anne: the browser does that
# [22:30] <timeless> ... hit regions would be added to focus order
# [22:30] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: it's not just fully defined then?
# [22:31] <timeless> hober: i'm sure the editor would like to hear
# [22:31] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: these elements are not in the DOM?
# [22:31] <timeless> ... they can't take properties
# [22:31] <timeless> ... like Role/Label
# [22:31] <timeless> hober: not if they need aria-properties
# [22:31] <timeless> cyns: can you help me understand the value of these?
# [22:32] <timeless> hober: it's difficult to discretely identify
# [22:32] <timeless> ... suppose you have a <canvas>
# [22:32] <timeless> ... emulating a Pitri dish
# [22:32] <timeless> ... clicking on the Canvas drops a complex reagent
# [22:32] <timeless> ... there might not a be a point on the canvas corresponding to a discrete object
# [22:32] <timeless> ... you might want hit regions
# [22:32] <timeless> ... but it would be difficult to describe in a dom tree
# [22:32] <timeless> ... saying "that's a div'ish thing"
# [22:32] <timeless> ... "now there's two blobs"
# [22:33] <timeless> ... the reason we use it, is because there isn't a better option
# [22:33] <timeless> cyns: let's treat div as a rectangle
# [22:33] <timeless> ... it seems like you could have divs that transcribe the areas
# [22:33] <timeless> ... why are these JSON objects better?
# [22:33] <timeless> hober: they're much smaller
# [22:33] <timeless> ... let's say you had a 2000x2000 canvas
# [22:33] <timeless> ... using 2000 * 2000 div elements
# [22:34] <timeless> ... would be bad
# [22:34] <timeless> ... it isn't reasonable to ask them to use the dom
# [22:34] <timeless> ... why use the canvas?
# [22:34] <timeless> cyns: most people seem to be using it because it's trendy
# [22:34] <timeless> hober: frankolivier had a great example
# [22:34] <timeless> ... using a distinct canvas object per word in a string of text
# [22:34] <timeless> ... our answer should be "don't do that"
# [22:35] <timeless> frankolivier: tying every accessible object onto the dom is going to be very expensive
# [22:35] <timeless> ... is that the more common or the less common?
# [22:35] <timeless> hober: fortunately, this proposal addresses both
# [22:35] <timeless> ... i don't know, let's find out
# [22:35] <chaals> q+ mjs
# [22:35] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [22:35] <richardschwerdtfe> q?
# [22:35] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
# [22:35] <timeless> anne: if you have an element based thing, you should use svg
# [22:35] <timeless> frankolivier: tying those elements to a dot is a bit much
# [22:35] <timeless> ... but there will be more examples of tying to a checkbox
# [22:36] <timeless> hober: i'm not particularly interested in counting
# [22:36] <timeless> ack mj
# [22:36] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:36] <timeless> ack mjs
# [22:36] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:36] <chaals> q+ to say I think ew should be caring about the data that motivates the use cases
# [22:36] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
# [22:36] <timeless> mjs: there's another purpose to lightweight hit regions
# [22:36] <timeless> ... you could associate multiple hit regions to a single element and distinguish between them
# [22:36] * Quits: davidb (davidb@66.207.208.98) (Quit: davidb)
# [22:36] <timeless> ... similar to a ComboBox
# [22:37] <timeless> ... this is supported by AddHitRegion
# [22:37] <timeless> ... but not supported by the other proposal
# [22:37] <timeless> frankolivier: i think we agree on needing to solve this problem
# [22:37] <timeless> ... i don't think we see a big problem to lightweight elements
# [22:37] <timeless> ... i think it'd be good to combine the change proposals
# [22:37] <timeless> hober: does my proposal not address everything
# [22:37] <timeless> frankolivier: i think keyboard navigation, or overlapping hit regions
# [22:37] <timeless> ... but if you combine the two...
# [22:38] <timeless> hober: can we take that offline and do that
# [22:38] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: where in the proposal do you address clearing
# [22:38] <timeless> ... paths
# [22:38] <timeless> ... talking w/ Devs @ SXSW
# [22:38] <timeless> ... they need to be able to remove them
# [22:38] <chaals> q-
# [22:38] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:39] * timeless rests
# [22:40] <hober> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas-element.html#clear-regions-that-cover-the-pixels
# [22:40] <timeless> Chair: Sam Ruby
# [22:40] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [22:40] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [22:40] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: it describes the process
# [22:41] <timeless> ... is there a method that does it?
# [22:41] <timeless> hober: addHitRegion -- step 18
# [22:42] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: addHitRegion, clearRect are the "3 ways"?
# [22:42] <timeless> hober: off by one error
# [22:42] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: you put a new path
# [22:42] <timeless> ... you can put an empty path to remove it?
# [22:42] <timeless> frankolivier: how do you store the hit regions?
# [22:42] <timeless> hober: there's a concept of a hit region list
# [22:42] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: lightweight paths
# [22:43] <timeless> ... do you have text associated with the objects?
# [22:43] <timeless> hober: just role and label
# [22:43] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: is the label rendered?
# [22:43] <timeless> hober: no
# [22:43] <timeless> shepazu: it's like alt
# [22:44] * Quits: dveditz (dveditz@205.248.100.252) (Quit: dveditz)
# [22:44] <timeless> shepazu: any visible rendered text
# [22:45] <timeless> ... would still be rendered through the "text api"
# [22:45] <timeless> frankolivier: what about ATs that go to the DOM itself?
# [22:45] <timeless> s/frankolivier/richardschwerdtfe/
# [22:46] <timeless> ... for Firefox, AAs go to the AT tree
# [22:46] <timeless> ... but for IE to be backwards compat, they go to the DOM
# [22:46] <timeless> s/ATs/AAs/
# [22:46] <timeless> frankolivier: we might have to tell the AAs to go to the AT
# [22:46] <timeless> ... do you have concern about aria roles for lightweight objects?
# [22:46] * Quits: yosuke (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Quit: Page closed)
# [22:46] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: i'm concerned that we can't put other properties beside label
# [22:46] <timeless> ... if we start working on SVG
# [22:47] * Joins: yosuke (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [22:47] <timeless> ... and we start introducing new properties pertinent to graphics
# [22:47] <timeless> ... a drawing is a drawing
# [22:47] <timeless> hober: this proposal allows you to use the DOM elements
# [22:47] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: why don't we add that capability when we merge it?
# [22:48] <timeless> mjs: in the whatwg spec
# [22:48] <timeless> ... HitRegion takes a dictionary
# [22:48] <timeless> ... so you could add more properties
# [22:49] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: aside from ellipses, text, and paths
# [22:49] <timeless> ... does anyone want to talk about them?
# [22:49] <timeless> hober: there have been many changes relevant to the canvas part of the spec
# [22:49] <timeless> ... the revisions in my detailed proposal
# [22:49] <timeless> ... are limited to this
# [22:49] * timeless thinks
# [22:49] <timeless> paulc: they were added in the same week
# [22:50] <timeless> ... but there was a distinct dividing line
# [22:50] <timeless> frankolivier: i think it would be worthwhile to focus on the Accessibility features first
# [22:50] <timeless> sam: it sounds like everyone agrees
# [22:50] <timeless> ... i haven't heard objections
# [22:51] <timeless> paulc: i can find you another room
# [22:51] <timeless> frankolivier: i can suggest edits to the other change proposal
# [22:51] <timeless> hober: just go change it
# [22:51] <timeless> richardschwerdtfe: i can work w/ frankolivier on it next week
# [22:51] <timeless> sam: hober can watch it
# [22:51] <timeless> ... and work on it in his spare time
# [22:52] <timeless> ... are we done with this topic, for now, at least?
# [22:52] <timeless> [ RESOLVED ]
# [22:52] <timeless> trackbot, issue-194?
# [22:52] <trackbot> Sorry, timeless, I don't understand 'trackbot, issue-194?'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
# [22:52] <timeless> issue-194?
# [22:52] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-194
# [22:52] <trackbot> ISSUE-194 -- Provide a mechanism for associating a full transcript with an audio or video element. -- open
# [22:52] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/194
# [22:52] <timeless> issue-183?
# [22:52] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-183
# [22:52] <trackbot> ISSUE-183 -- Enhance and simplify the time element -- open
# [22:52] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/183
# [22:52] <timeless> issue-184?
# [22:52] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-184
# [22:52] <trackbot> ISSUE-184 -- Add a data element -- open
# [22:52] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/184
# [22:53] <timeless> sam: i know tantek wanted time for time+data
# [22:53] <timeless> ... any other interest
# [22:53] <timeless> adrianba: you, tantek, were proposing rather than a specific topic of time+data
# [22:53] * Joins: tantek_ (tantek@205.248.100.252)
# [22:53] <timeless> ... but "how do we decide when we work on a new element?"
# [22:54] <timeless> tantek_: it might be useful to split the discussion into two pieces
# [22:54] <timeless> ... time+data
# [22:54] <timeless> ... and then methodology for HTML.next
# [22:54] <timeless> ... if that's acceptable
# [22:54] <timeless> adrianba: either way works
# [22:55] <timeless> i/i know tantek/Topic: Time and Data element/
# [22:56] <timeless> tantek_: this is a follow on
# [22:56] <timeless> ... for an online discussion
# [22:56] * Quits: vimeo_joe (vimeo_joe@71.202.222.94) (Client exited)
# [22:56] <timeless> ... it came up @TPAC
# [22:56] <timeless> ... we reached a consensus in the room
# [22:56] <timeless> ... which was fairly solid
# [22:56] <timeless> ... and then we made progresssome made their way through
# [22:56] * Joins: vimeo_joe (vimeo_joe@71.202.222.94)
# [22:56] <timeless> s/progresssome made their way through/progress/
# [22:56] <timeless> ... some made their way through
# [22:56] <timeless> ... and some are working their way through
# [22:57] <timeless> ... the counter proposal to drop the time element
# [22:57] * Quits: vimeo_joe (vimeo_joe@71.202.222.94) (Connection reset by peer)
# [22:57] <timeless> ... and instead enhance the data element with a time attribute
# [22:57] <timeless> ... which i think is harder to use
# [22:57] * Joins: vimeo_joe (vimeo_joe@71.202.222.94)
# [22:57] <timeless> sam: i thought there was a CfC to accept the time element
# [22:57] <timeless> tantek_: there was, and it was accepted
# [22:58] <timeless> sam: there was a counter proposal to add to data
# [22:58] * Quits: vimeo_joe (vimeo_joe@71.202.222.94) (Client exited)
# [22:58] * Joins: vimeo_joe (vimeo_joe@71.202.222.94)
# [22:58] <timeless> ... but it didn't have sufficient justification put forward
# [22:58] <timeless> ... and i haven't seen that
# [22:58] <timeless> tantek_: ok
# [22:58] * Quits: frankolivier (cdf86654@109.169.29.95) (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
# [22:58] <timeless> ... i'd like to propose, as a way of moving forward
# [22:58] <timeless> ... is that the group decide that adding the time-type to data is a new feature
# [22:58] <timeless> ... and we don't add it to html5
# [22:58] <timeless> sam: i'm reticent to make a decision today in this room
# [22:59] <timeless> ... STRAW PROPOSAL
# [22:59] <timeless> ... is that if there was a type= attribute added to the <data> element, it would be done post HTML5
# [22:59] <timeless> ... STRAW POLL: is there anyone in the room who would object to that?
# [22:59] <timeless> paulc: typically, when you design something like this
# [22:59] <timeless> ... what's the default value
# [22:59] * anne I'd like to object to wasting time on this, but I guess that's too meta
# [23:00] <timeless> ... in the case you don't have the attribute and it doesn't occur
# [23:00] <timeless> ... what's the equivalent without a value?
# [23:00] <timeless> mjs: i don't think the proposal makes it clear
# [23:00] * anne hmm, now I wish I did
# [23:00] <timeless> paulc: looking into the future
# [23:00] <timeless> ... what would it do if it's optional
# [23:01] <timeless> mjs: i'm saying the person isn't in the room
# [23:01] <timeless> sam: if this type attribute were added and no one in the room is advocating
# [23:01] <timeless> ... how would we address it?
# [23:01] <timeless> ... i understand your point
# [23:01] <timeless> ... people who propose such things should define such things
# [23:01] <timeless> ... we as cochairs did indicate it was deficient
# [23:01] <timeless> ... i don't believe we've timed it out yet
# [23:02] <timeless> s/your/your, paulc's,/
# [23:02] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [23:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/03-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
# [23:02] <timeless> paulc: you sent your proposal on the 18th
# [23:03] <timeless> sam: we accepted tantek_'s proposal for data + time
# [23:03] <timeless> ... there are remaining sub proposals that haven't made coherent arguments
# [23:03] <timeless> tantek_: i'm claiming the proposals are feature additions that we can postpone
# [23:04] <timeless> paulc: the change proposal was Mar 27
# [23:04] <timeless> ... "enhance the data element with a type system proposal"
# [23:04] <timeless> ... this hasn't been touched since Feb 9
# [23:05] <timeless> sam: in that case, we should mark as defered
# [23:05] <timeless> ... it looks like it's quite likely we have consensus on 183 and 184
# [23:05] <timeless> tantek_: and the broader discussion we can have in HTML.next
# [23:05] <timeless> sam: we're missing a participant on 194
# [23:06] <timeless> cyns: i haven't reached him
# [23:06] * Joins: dveditz (dveditz@63.245.220.240)
# [23:06] <timeless> JF: we'd like to get Shawn Hayes, Microsoft, to dial in to join us
# [23:06] <timeless> ... if we postpone to tomorrow
# [23:06] <timeless> paulc: where's he based?
# [23:06] <timeless> JF: UK
# [23:06] <adrianba> s/Shawn/Sean/
# [23:06] <timeless> paulc: so proposing to do this now was a bad idea
# [23:07] <timeless> ... we should do this @9am tomorrow
# [23:07] <timeless> eric_carlson: I won't be here tomorrow
# [23:07] <timeless> tantek_: on the previous subject
# [23:07] <timeless> ISSUE-185?
# [23:07] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-185
# [23:07] <trackbot> ISSUE-185 -- Drop the pubdate attribute -- open
# [23:07] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/185
# [23:07] <timeless> tantek_: ... drop the pubdata attribute
# [23:08] * Joins: tantek (tantek@205.248.100.252)
# [23:09] * Joins: nesta_ (nesta_@77.208.154.61)
# [23:10] <timeless> tantek_: the summary of the proposal
# [23:10] <timeless> ... is we can drop pubdata
# [23:10] <timeless> s/pubdata/pubdate/
# [23:10] <timeless> ... because it lacks nontrivial use outside of hatom usage
# [23:10] <timeless> ... which provides a superset of the functionality
# [23:11] <paulc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Mar/0738.html
# [23:11] <timeless> i/previous subject/Topic: Pubdate/
# [23:11] * Joins: rubys (rubys@205.248.100.252)
# [23:11] <timeless> paulc: you, sam, on tantek_ 's proposal
# [23:12] <timeless> tantek_: wordpress templates use in hatom
# [23:12] * Quits: chaals (chaals@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
# [23:12] <timeless> sam: it's not in dispute that it's used
# [23:13] <timeless> sam: we could update the change proposal and say it's defficient
# [23:13] <timeless> ... or do a survey
# [23:13] <timeless> ... if you point out that
# [23:13] <timeless> ... it's not in dispute that it's in use
# [23:13] <timeless> ... but it's in dispute that it's necessary
# [23:13] <timeless> tantek_: the other proposal is to add a MODDATE attribute
# [23:13] <timeless> ... and i claim that's a new feature and say that's for HTML.next
# [23:14] <timeless> sam: all valid things to put in a survey
# [23:14] <timeless> ... so if it becomes a formal objection, we can point to the survey
# [23:14] <timeless> ... "everyone had an opportunity to comment"
# [23:14] <timeless> paulc: i'm suggesting that the chair's review of the revised change proposal
# [23:14] <timeless> ... will ask you to review that additional change proposal
# [23:15] <timeless> ... if we get that out of the way, it's very likely that if the review doesn't turn up anything else
# [23:15] <timeless> ... we can go to survey ASAP
# [23:15] <timeless> ISSUE-194?
# [23:15] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-194
# [23:15] <trackbot> ISSUE-194 -- Provide a mechanism for associating a full transcript with an audio or video element. -- open
# [23:15] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/194
# [23:15] <timeless> Topic: Transcript with Audio/Video Element - Part 1
# [23:16] <timeless> paulc: JF sent a link
# [23:16] <timeless> ... and there was a request for a change proposal update
# [23:16] <paulc> Review of ISSUE-194: As such, we will not accept the @transcript proposal until it is updated to contain a set of edit instructions, specific enough that they can be applied without ambiguity, and contains answers to the questions posed in the counter change proposal.
# [23:16] <timeless> JF: I have not done that
# [23:16] <timeless> ... we require a programmatic means of finding an associable element
# [23:16] <timeless> ... one is an attribute
# [23:16] <timeless> ... the other is a no change proposal
# [23:17] <paulc> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-194
# [23:17] <timeless> ... the other proposal is to defer to HTML.next
# [23:17] <timeless> ... that's a bit of a non-starter
# [23:17] <timeless> ... it leaves a gaping hole from the Accessibility perspective
# [23:17] <timeless> ... hober had done a review of a couple of different patterns
# [23:17] <timeless> ... we looked at the patterns and found a couple that were viable/workable for us
# [23:18] <timeless> ... if we could talk them through/find a common ground
# [23:18] <timeless> ... i'd rather get the engineers involved a little more
# [23:18] <paulc> John: Could we look at the patterns in http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ISSUE-194/NoChange and discuss if there is a solution we can agree on.
# [23:18] <timeless> janina: ...
# [23:19] <timeless> [ Break ]
# [23:19] <eliot> thank you
# [23:19] <Zakim> -eliot
# [23:19] * Quits: eric_carlson (eric_carls@205.248.100.252) (Quit: eric_carlson)
# [23:20] * Parts: f2f (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [23:20] * Quits: richardschwerdtfe (RichS@205.248.100.252) (Quit: richardschwerdtfe)
# [23:21] * Quits: shepazu (shepazu@128.30.52.169) (Quit: shepazu)
# [23:21] * Quits: ArtB (abarsto@205.248.100.252) (Quit: Leaving.)
# [23:22] * Quits: hiroki (h_yamada@128.30.52.28) (Quit: hiroki)
# [23:23] * Quits: adrianba (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [23:23] * Quits: tantek_ (tantek@205.248.100.252) (Connection reset by peer)
# [23:24] * Joins: paulc2 (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [23:25] * Quits: ddorwin (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [23:25] * Quits: anne (annevk@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
# [23:25] * Quits: yosuke (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [23:25] * Quits: tantek (tantek@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
# [23:26] * Quits: acolwell (acolwell@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
# [23:26] * Quits: rubys (rubys@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
# [23:27] * Joins: tantek (tantek@66.87.2.86)
# [23:29] * Quits: plh (plh@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
# [23:32] * Quits: glenn (gadams@205.248.100.252) (Connection reset by peer)
# [23:32] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@205.248.100.252) (Connection reset by peer)
# [23:38] * Joins: tantek_ (tantek@66.87.2.86)
# [23:39] <tantek_> rubys, paulc, othermaciej, as requested, I've updated my change proposal for issue 185 - http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Tantekelik/drop_pubdate - to rebut "keep pubdate / add moddate".
# [23:40] * Quits: eliot (eliot@131.107.0.118) (Quit: REALITY.SYS Corrupted: Re-boot universe? (Y/N/Q))
# [23:42] * Joins: icaaq (Adium@94.234.170.161)
# [23:42] * Joins: acolwell (acolwell@205.248.100.252)
# [23:43] * Joins: glenn (gadams@205.248.100.252)
# [23:43] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@205.248.100.252)
# [23:43] * Joins: yosuke (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [23:48] * Quits: nesta_ (nesta_@77.208.154.61) (Quit: nesta_)
# [23:49] * Joins: Lachy (Lachy@84.215.193.30)
# [23:50] * Joins: richardschwerdtfe (RichS@205.248.100.252)
# [23:53] * Joins: ddorwin (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
# [23:53] * Joins: eric_carlson (eric_carls@205.248.100.252)
# [23:53] * Joins: anne (annevk@205.248.100.252)
# [23:56] <glenn> Topic: Issue-194
# [23:56] <glenn> ISSUE-194?
# [23:56] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-194
# [23:56] <trackbot> ISSUE-194 -- Provide a mechanism for associating a full transcript with an audio or video element. -- open
# [23:56] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/194
# [23:56] * timeless was going to scribe
# [23:56] <glenn> go ahead
# [23:57] <timeless> JF: hober did a good review of different patterns
# [23:57] <timeless> s/go ahead//
# [23:57] <timeless> ... and the accessibility TF looked through it
# [23:57] <timeless> ... and was thrilled
# [23:57] <timeless> ... a half dozen or so that would meet our User Requirements
# [23:57] * Joins: plh (plh@128.30.52.28)
# [23:57] <paulc> Alternatives in http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ISSUE-194/NoChange
# [23:57] <timeless> ... the one we're leaning toward
# [23:57] <hober> research in http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/User:Eoconnor/ISSUE-194/Research
# [23:57] <timeless> ... is the <track> element
# [23:57] <timeless> ... an untimed file
# [23:57] * Joins: chaals (chaals@205.248.100.252)
# [23:57] <timeless> ... there were a couple of others
# [23:57] <timeless> ... using an indirect transcript reference
# [23:58] <timeless> ... or reuse the for/rel attributes
# [23:58] <timeless> sam: if you've got your preference, let's start with that one
# [23:58] <timeless> JF: the preference is to reuse the <track> element
# [23:58] <timeless> ... it can be used for CC and subtitles
# [23:58] <timeless> ... and subtitles in multiple languages
# [23:58] <timeless> ... although to my knowledge we don't have an implementation now
# [23:58] * hober sorry, wrong link. fixing...
# [23:58] <timeless> ... that would produce a menu to choose a caption they want
# [23:58] <timeless> ... so the user would be in control
# [23:59] <hober> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ISSUE-194/Research
# [23:59] <timeless> ... adding a transcript in the menu items would be an elegant UI pattern
# [23:59] <timeless> ... there's been a concern that there's been a concern that it abuses the semantics of track
# [23:59] <timeless> ... the idea is do we add an attribute to <video> or a child element
# [23:59] <timeless> ... an attribute on video would be easier to do
# [23:59] * Joins: frankolivier (cdf86652@64.62.228.82)
# [23:59] <timeless> ... do we introduce an attribute or do we reuse something
# Session Close: Fri May 04 00:00:00 2012

The end :)