/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2012-05-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat May 05 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:00] <timeless> ... from no-render
  4. # [00:00] <timeless> ... and then put the rest of it in aria-implementation-guide
  5. # [00:00] <timeless> hober: if we did that, it would be substantially closer to the other proposal
  6. # [00:00] <timeless> cyns: what do you guys think about that?
  7. # [00:00] <timeless> janina: i'm having trouble understanding hober
  8. # [00:00] <timeless> chaals: hober said that gets us closer to agreement
  9. # [00:01] <timeless> hober: i think sicking wants us to require the full semantics to the AT
  10. # [00:01] <timeless> s/AT/AT Tree/
  11. # [00:01] <timeless> paulc: is that the second difference?
  12. # [00:01] <timeless> hober: it's the same different
  13. # [00:01] <timeless> s/different/difference/
  14. # [00:01] <timeless> mjs: is that opinion in the change proposal?
  15. # [00:01] <timeless> hober: the change proposals on the table do not capture sicking's desire
  16. # [00:02] <timeless> mjs: probably because that's an ARIA requirement
  17. # [00:02] <timeless> cyns: and no one i've spoken to would support
  18. # [00:02] <timeless> JF: something we've said can't and won't work
  19. # [00:02] <timeless> ... that isn't really feasible
  20. # [00:02] <paulc> Jonas CP: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/AllowAriaReferHidden
  21. # [00:02] <timeless> cyns: looking at the two change proposals
  22. # [00:02] <timeless> ... we could get consensus by moving controversy to a new document
  23. # [00:02] <timeless> JF: that just moves the rub somewhere else
  24. # [00:03] <timeless> ... we need to clearly communicate to content authors the limitation of doing this
  25. # [00:03] <timeless> ... we have no evidence of seeing this behavior from other browsers/OSs
  26. # [00:03] <timeless> ... not saying this to be dismissive
  27. # [00:03] <timeless> ... when content authors are creating content
  28. # [00:03] <timeless> ... it's for all browsers on all platforms
  29. # [00:03] <timeless> ... but without commitment from everyone
  30. # [00:04] <timeless> cyns: or have UIs for how it would work
  31. # [00:04] <timeless> mjs: a proposal
  32. # [00:04] <timeless> ... remove the restriction from html5 on linking to hidden content
  33. # [00:04] <timeless> ... and include a warning that many implementations may give a limited version
  34. # [00:04] <timeless> ... including flattening text
  35. # [00:04] <timeless> ... and the actual hard requirements on what UAs are allowed to do
  36. # [00:05] <timeless> ... would be deferred to the ARIA specification/implementers guide
  37. # [00:05] <timeless> JF: the change proposal that cyns presented
  38. # [00:05] <timeless> ... was a collaboration of the ARIA members
  39. # [00:05] <timeless> ... it'd be unfair to give a definitive answer
  40. # [00:05] <timeless> mjs: acknowledging that different people may have different opinions
  41. # [00:06] <timeless> cyns: i'm having a hard time channeling people
  42. # [00:06] <timeless> ... with whom i don't agree
  43. # [00:06] <timeless> cyns: personally... moving the discussion of flattening
  44. # [00:06] <timeless> ... into ARIA/accessibility implementation guide
  45. # [00:06] <timeless> ... is probably fine
  46. # [00:06] <timeless> ... but when i suggest anything close to that, flame wars errupt
  47. # [00:06] <timeless> janina: i think it would further delay us
  48. # [00:06] <timeless> ... we're already 13 months delayed
  49. # [00:07] <timeless> JF: we're often told, we want to get this guidance into the HTML5 spec
  50. # [00:07] <timeless> ... authors want one point of reference
  51. # [00:07] <timeless> ... so in html5 you'd say "it's ok, but go to aria to make sure it's ok"
  52. # [00:07] <timeless> ... it's kind of like punting it to a document that will have less readership
  53. # [00:07] <timeless> mjs: i'm suggesting the warning to authors would be in the html 5 spec
  54. # [00:07] <timeless> q+ chaals
  55. # [00:07] * Zakim sees plh, JF, chaals on the speaker queue
  56. # [00:08] <timeless> mjs: and then a bit to the implementers in the other document
  57. # [00:08] <timeless> JF: and that's down to the strength of the warning
  58. # [00:08] <timeless> ... if it's sufficiently foreboding enough
  59. # [00:08] <timeless> ... paulc's SHOULD
  60. # [00:08] <timeless> ... "you really shouldn't"
  61. # [00:08] * hober we could mark up the warning with <blink>
  62. # [00:08] <timeless> ... there has to be a strong justification
  63. # [00:08] * Quits: joesteele (joesteele@192.150.10.200) (Ping timeout)
  64. # [00:08] <timeless> ... if we could invoke this is a warning
  65. # [00:08] <timeless> ... or make it a SHOULD NOT
  66. # [00:09] <timeless> ... then i think some of the more problematic responses within the larger group could be addressed
  67. # [00:09] <timeless> q- plh
  68. # [00:09] * Zakim sees JF, chaals on the speaker queue
  69. # [00:09] <timeless> q- JF
  70. # [00:09] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  71. # [00:09] <timeless> ack chaals
  72. # [00:09] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  73. # [00:09] <timeless> chaals: how you put it is important
  74. # [00:09] <timeless> ... and how you put it depends on where the platform goes
  75. # [00:09] <mjs> Current warning to authors => "This technique should not be used for longer content that has structured text (e.g., headings, anchors, list markup, table markup, etc.), as accessible name and description calculation [WAI-ARIA] will flatten the referenced elements to plain text, losing interactivity and semantic structure."
  76. # [00:09] <timeless> ... if MS holds a significant share of the platform for users
  77. # [00:09] <timeless> ... then trying to drive them around by misleading authors
  78. # [00:09] <timeless> ... is wrong
  79. # [00:10] <timeless> ... by the same token, i'd expect and hope that ms won't sit with no flattening for 140 years
  80. # [00:10] <timeless> ... a warning that matches a reasonable sense of expectations
  81. # [00:10] <timeless> ... points to the aria documentation
  82. # [00:10] <timeless> ... where it gets defined
  83. # [00:10] <mjs> Proposed warning to authors => "This technique should not be used for longer content that has structured text (e.g., headings, anchors, list markup, table markup, etc.), because the content may be presented only as flattened plaintext. Authors should not assume that full semantics will be preserved."
  84. # [00:10] <timeless> ... and not putting an explicit requirement that you can't do anything better
  85. # [00:10] <mjs> q+
  86. # [00:10] * Zakim sees mjs on the speaker queue
  87. # [00:10] <timeless> ... does put a modicum of pressure on people to upgrade
  88. # [00:10] <timeless> cyns: what i'm hearing is
  89. # [00:11] <timeless> ... removing a UA SHOULD NOT
  90. # [00:11] <timeless> ... and adding an Authors SHOULD NOT
  91. # [00:11] <timeless> mjs: there is an Authors SHOULD NOT
  92. # [00:11] <timeless> ... in cyns's proposal
  93. # [00:11] <timeless> mjs: "This technique should not be used for longer content that has structured text (e.g., headings, anchors, list markup, table markup, etc.), as accessible name and description calculation [WAI-ARIA] will flatten the referenced elements to plain text, losing interactivity and semantic structure."
  94. # [00:12] <timeless> mjs: I suggested an alternative
  95. # [00:12] <timeless> mjs: "This technique should not be used for longer content that has structured text (e.g., headings, anchors, list markup, table markup, etc.), because the content may be presented only as flattened plaintext. Authors should not assume that full semantics will be preserved."
  96. # [00:12] * chaals likes mjs' proposed text as written by mjs above.
  97. # [00:12] <timeless> cyns: that seems good
  98. # [00:12] <timeless> ... it seems like we should add something about focusable stuff
  99. # [00:12] <chaals> [+1 to mjs' proposed text as written by mjs above.]
  100. # [00:12] <timeless> janina: that suggests it may be ok in many circumstances
  101. # [00:12] <timeless> ... i don't think you have that much marketshare yet
  102. # [00:12] <timeless> ... i'm disagreeing
  103. # [00:13] <timeless> ... there will be more breakage
  104. # [00:13] <timeless> ... the warning is too weak
  105. # [00:13] <timeless> ... make it stronger, that's fine
  106. # [00:13] <timeless> cyns: did you have a suggestion?
  107. # [00:13] <timeless> paulc: this is the chair
  108. # [00:13] <timeless> ... in sicking's proposal
  109. # [00:14] <timeless> ... he gives as credible evidence
  110. # [00:14] <timeless> ... the position of Apple + Mozilla
  111. # [00:14] <timeless> ... of what Firefox can do
  112. # [00:14] <timeless> ... does the counter proposal discredit that as not sufficient
  113. # [00:14] <timeless> cyns: I quoted that as well
  114. # [00:14] <timeless> ... the quotes
  115. # [00:14] <timeless> ... say "apple doesn't have a strong feeling either way"
  116. # [00:14] <timeless> ... i didn't hear "we plan to do this in 18 months"
  117. # [00:14] <timeless> JF: it's easy to say "browser can solve world peace"
  118. # [00:14] <timeless> mjs: we don't have a strong view on author's conformance
  119. # [00:15] <timeless> ... everyone seems to agree that it's ok to point to hidden content
  120. # [00:15] <timeless> ... the issue is what authors should be aware of when they use the technique
  121. # [00:15] <timeless> ... the original point to which we didn't have strong feelings is no longer a controversy
  122. # [00:15] <chaals> [I still think pointing to hidden text is an anti-pattern, but I'm not dying on that hill]
  123. # [00:16] <timeless> cyns: an Authors SHOULD NOT as a validation warning with appropriate text
  124. # [00:16] <timeless> ... because it doesn't work now
  125. # [00:16] <timeless> ... and no one thinks it will work anytime soon
  126. # [00:16] <timeless> paulc: part of the concern is implementation plans
  127. # [00:16] <timeless> ... if we came down to a survey
  128. # [00:16] * Quits: plh (plh@128.30.52.28) (Quit: always accept cookies)
  129. # [00:16] <timeless> ... whether cochairs would be comfortable making a decision around that grounds alone
  130. # [00:17] <rubys> q+
  131. # [00:17] * Zakim sees mjs, rubys on the speaker queue
  132. # [00:17] <timeless> ... we'd be more comfortable making a decision on caution signs
  133. # [00:17] <timeless> janina: something quantitative would help
  134. # [00:17] * Quits: yosuke (qw3birc@128.30.52.28) (Ping timeout)
  135. # [00:17] <mjs> q-
  136. # [00:17] * Zakim sees rubys on the speaker queue
  137. # [00:17] <timeless> chaals: you can't quantify this against when we might have something in the future
  138. # [00:17] <timeless> q?
  139. # [00:17] * Zakim sees rubys on the speaker queue
  140. # [00:17] <timeless> ack rubys
  141. # [00:17] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  142. # [00:18] <timeless> rubys: we're talking about modifying one or both proposals
  143. # [00:18] <timeless> ... chairs will not craft a mix+match proposal when we go to survey
  144. # [00:18] <timeless> ... cyns, you might expect a very strong objection
  145. # [00:18] <timeless> ... to your proposal
  146. # [00:18] <timeless> cyns: i'm not tied to it
  147. # [00:18] <timeless> rubys: we might pick the other one
  148. # [00:19] <timeless> cyns: i'm comfortable with it
  149. # [00:19] <timeless> ... but others may take convincing
  150. # [00:19] <timeless> paulc: maybe for HTML5 you can get an Authors MUST NOT
  151. # [00:19] <timeless> cyns: it's the UA requirements that people object to
  152. # [00:19] <timeless> ... do you think sicking would be ok with that
  153. # [00:19] * Joins: plh (plh@128.30.52.28)
  154. # [00:19] <timeless> hober: i'd assume he's less concerned w/ Authoring requirements
  155. # [00:20] <timeless> JF: i hear this as reducing the implementation sticking point
  156. # [00:20] <timeless> cyns: this is machine testable, and a violation
  157. # [00:20] <timeless> JF: it can be author guidance in the spec
  158. # [00:20] <timeless> ... and WAICAG
  159. # [00:20] <timeless> cyns: so, remove the UA requirement
  160. # [00:20] <timeless> ... and add an Author MUST NOT
  161. # [00:21] <timeless> cyns: not machine testable doesn't seem like a good must
  162. # [00:21] <timeless> hober: we have lots of none machine testable
  163. # [00:21] <timeless> mjs: MUST NOT USE v. MUST NOT RELY ON
  164. # [00:21] <timeless> ... you aren't letting Authors
  165. # [00:21] * Quits: janina (janina@205.248.100.252) (Ping timeout)
  166. # [00:21] <timeless> cyns: that sounds like a SHOULD NOT
  167. # [00:21] <timeless> janina: I'd be ok with that
  168. # [00:22] <timeless> JF: We'll get there
  169. # [00:22] <timeless> ... it won't be a walk in the park
  170. # [00:22] <timeless> cyns: we can put the stronger text in ARIA
  171. # [00:22] <timeless> JF: and WAICAG
  172. # [00:22] <timeless> ... authors are going to see this as some magic token thing that will make things disappear
  173. # [00:22] <timeless> ... today there are significant problems
  174. # [00:22] <timeless> ... maybe down the road someday, things may get better
  175. # [00:22] * Quits: mjs (mjs@205.248.100.252) (Quit: mjs)
  176. # [00:23] <timeless> ... we don't want to restrict browsers from getting better
  177. # [00:23] <timeless> .... the more you can do to make the UX better
  178. # [00:23] <timeless> s/..../.../
  179. # [00:23] <timeless> ... there's been discussion about making things better
  180. # [00:23] * Joins: mjs (mjs@205.248.100.252)
  181. # [00:23] <timeless> janina: otoh, today, there's an unmet need
  182. # [00:23] <timeless> paulc: actions today?
  183. # [00:23] <timeless> cyns: for me to redraft the details section of the proposal
  184. # [00:23] <timeless> JF: i'll help
  185. # [00:23] <timeless> hober: and i'll try to run it by sicking
  186. # [00:24] <timeless> ... and maybe we'll drop the other proposal
  187. # [00:24] <timeless> paulc: we split 204 off 30
  188. # [00:24] <timeless> ISSUE-30?
  189. # [00:24] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-30
  190. # [00:24] <trackbot> ISSUE-30 -- Should HTML 5 include a longdesc attribute for images -- open
  191. # [00:24] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/30
  192. # [00:24] <timeless> paulc: if we get consensus on 204
  193. # [00:24] <timeless> ... it unblocks ISSUE-30
  194. # [00:24] <timeless> ... do we need to make changes to proposals on ISSUE-30
  195. # [00:24] <timeless> cyns: i'm not sure what the proposals are on ISSUE-30
  196. # [00:25] <timeless> ... but this is less rich than this
  197. # [00:25] <timeless> ... since LONGDESC links to a structured document
  198. # [00:25] <JF> q+
  199. # [00:25] * Zakim sees JF on the speaker queue
  200. # [00:25] <timeless> mjs: the authors of those proposals may want time to redraft those proposals
  201. # [00:25] <timeless> rubys: if sicking's proposal were done
  202. # [00:25] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  203. # [00:25] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  204. # [00:25] <timeless> ... i can see proposals for don't use LONGDESC being enhanced
  205. # [00:25] * Quits: mjs (mjs@205.248.100.252) (Quit: mjs)
  206. # [00:26] <timeless> paulc: if we get consensus on cyns 's proposal
  207. # [00:26] <timeless> ... (modified)
  208. # [00:26] <timeless> ... if we don't get consensus
  209. # [00:26] <timeless> ... go to survye
  210. # [00:26] <timeless> s/survye/survey/
  211. # [00:26] <timeless> ... and sicking's is the winner
  212. # [00:26] <timeless> ... then it's possible the 30
  213. # [00:26] <timeless> hober: i don't think cyns's modified is much different from sicking's
  214. # [00:26] <timeless> cyns: sicking's proposal
  215. # [00:27] <timeless> ... suggested a structured hidden thing
  216. # [00:27] <timeless> ... but unicorns
  217. # [00:27] <timeless> paulc: LONGDESC does point to a structured HTML file
  218. # [00:27] <timeless> ... but hidden with aria-described-by for a year would not
  219. # [00:27] <tantek> what if LONGDESC pointed to data URL text/plain?
  220. # [00:27] * Joins: mjs (mjs@205.248.100.252)
  221. # [00:27] <timeless> JF: the issue with 30 is: no exit strategy
  222. # [00:28] * timeless tantek: author choice
  223. # [00:28] * timeless ... author can choose a flat hidden string today
  224. # [00:28] <timeless> cyns: to be fair, impl of longdesc in browsers is spotty today
  225. # [00:28] <timeless> ... a flat string today everywhere
  226. # [00:28] <timeless> ... is better than spotty longdesc today
  227. # [00:28] <timeless> ... what we're talking about here is easier to implement
  228. # [00:29] <timeless> paulc: i heard cyns and JF to do a proposal
  229. # [00:29] <timeless> hober: I'll work with sicking to review the revised proposal
  230. # [00:29] <timeless> paulc: to make a decision of "can you live with the modified proposal"
  231. # [00:29] <timeless> rubys: will sicking be at the CSS WG?
  232. # [00:29] <timeless> hober: no
  233. # [00:29] <timeless> JF: i'd like it done soon
  234. # [00:30] <timeless> ... i can do some drafting
  235. # [00:31] <timeless> ISSUE-184?
  236. # [00:31] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-184
  237. # [00:31] <trackbot> ISSUE-184 -- Add a data element -- open
  238. # [00:31] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/184
  239. # [00:32] <timeless> JF: accessibility team will mean Tue+Thu of next week
  240. # [00:32] <timeless> ... cyns and i will work together
  241. # [00:32] <timeless> ... i'll take driver's position
  242. # [00:32] <timeless> ... to tech team before sicking
  243. # [00:33] <timeless> ... by the 15th of may
  244. # [00:33] <timeless> paulc: janina, can judy invite me to the meeting
  245. # [00:33] <timeless> ... hober late next week in your hands
  246. # [00:33] * Zakim timeless, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  247. # [00:36] <timeless> ISSUE-203?
  248. # [00:36] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-203
  249. # [00:36] <trackbot> ISSUE-203 -- All Media Elements should have the ability to have both short and longer textual descriptions associated to the element -- open
  250. # [00:36] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/203
  251. # [00:36] <timeless> paulc: on behalf of the WG, Josh_Soref, thanks very much
  252. # [00:36] * Joins: krisk (qw3birc@128.30.52.28)
  253. # [00:36] <timeless> ... i understand the french wine is much better than the California wine
  254. # [00:36] <timeless> ... we have a meeting next week
  255. # [00:36] <krisk> Testing Status Update -> http://www.w3c-test.org/html/tests/reporting/HTML5_Status_5_4_2012.pdf
  256. # [00:36] <timeless> ... 8am for accessibility, and WG at 9am
  257. # [00:36] <timeless> ... mjs: who's chairing?
  258. # [00:36] <timeless> mjs: i can do another
  259. # [00:36] <timeless> krisk: i can help
  260. # [00:36] <timeless> paulc: thanks everyone
  261. # [00:37] * Quits: Mark_Vickers (Mark_Vicke@205.248.100.252) (Client exited)
  262. # [00:37] * Quits: cyns (cdf86654@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
  263. # [00:37] <timeless> ... chairs will have a proposal for media soon
  264. # [00:37] <timeless> ... see many of you at TPAC
  265. # [00:37] <timeless> ... thanks very much
  266. # [00:37] <timeless> janina: thanks to MS for hosting
  267. # [00:37] <timeless> [ Applause ]
  268. # [00:37] <timeless> [ Adjourned ]
  269. # [00:37] <timeless> trackbot, end telcon
  270. # [00:37] * trackbot is ending a teleconference
  271. # [00:37] <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
  272. # [00:37] <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been F2F, Josh_Soref, MikeSmith, +1.858.677.aaaa, paulc, JF, janina, bryan, sam, Arno_, glenn, Arnaud_Braud, Paul_Cotton, Adrian_Bateman,
  273. # [00:37] <Zakim> ... Russell_Berkoff, Peter_Peterka, Odin_Horthe_Omdal, plh, Aaron_Colwell, frankolivier, anne, hober, Wonsuk, +1.650.576.aabb, BobLund
  274. # [00:37] <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  275. # [00:37] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/04-html-wg-minutes.html trackbot
  276. # [00:37] <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
  277. # [00:37] <RRSAgent> I see no action items
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  307. # [01:32] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
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  311. # [02:05] <Zakim> -F2F
  312. # [02:05] <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
  313. # [02:05] <Zakim> Attendees were F2F, Josh_Soref, MikeSmith, +1.858.677.aaaa, paulc, JF, janina, bryan, sam, Arno_, glenn, Arnaud_Braud, Paul_Cotton, Adrian_Bateman, Russell_Berkoff, Peter_Peterka,
  314. # [02:05] <Zakim> ... Odin_Horthe_Omdal, plh, Aaron_Colwell, frankolivier, anne, hober, Wonsuk, +1.650.576.aabb, BobLund
  315. # [02:18] * Quits: miketaylr (miketaylr@70.112.101.224) (Quit: Leaving...)
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  325. # [05:36] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  326. # [05:36] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
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  337. # [13:34] * Quits: myakura (myakura@221.171.5.98) (Client exited)
  338. # [13:37] * Quits: dveditz (dveditz@74.220.71.14) (Quit: dveditz)
  339. # [13:59] * Quits: Lachy (Lachy@84.215.193.30) (Quit: Bye)
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  341. # [15:03] * nonge_ is now known as nonge
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  350. # [16:53] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
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  359. # [18:37] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
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  370. # [20:32] * Quits: drublic (drublic@109.84.236.210) (Client exited)
  371. # [20:50] * Quits: drublic_ (drublic@109.41.249.250) (Client exited)
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  380. # Session Close: Sun May 06 00:00:00 2012

The end :)