/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2014-10-30 / end

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  88. # [16:37] * glazou interested in the following topics: Editing TF, After HTML5 and this afternoon joint meeting ; my only constraint is now: Pagination meeting in DIGIPUB until 11am ; thanks
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  94. # [16:42] * rubys changes topic to 'TPAC 2014'
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  105. # [16:50] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2014-10-Agenda#F2F_Topics
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  108. # [16:53] <timeless> trackbot, start meeting
  109. # [16:53] * trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
  110. # [16:53] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrsagent@public.cloak)
  111. # [16:53] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-irc
  112. # [16:53] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  113. # [16:53] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  114. # [16:53] * Joins: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak)
  115. # [16:53] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be html_wg
  116. # [16:53] <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()11:30AM scheduled to start 23 minutes ago
  117. # [16:53] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
  118. # [16:53] <trackbot> Date: 30 October 2014
  119. # [16:53] <timeless> s/Weekly Teleconference/F2F - TPAC2014/
  120. # [16:53] <timeless> scribe: timeless
  121. # [16:53] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  122. # [16:53] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  123. # [16:53] <timeless> agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2014-10-Agenda#F2F_Topics
  124. # [16:54] <timeless> RRSAgent, make logs world
  125. # [16:54] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, timeless
  126. # [16:55] <paulc> F2F topics: https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2014-10-Agenda#F2F_Topics
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  129. # [16:57] <timeless> chair: paulc, rubys
  130. # [16:57] <timeless> s/rubys1/rubys/G
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  138. # [17:01] <timeless> present+ Josh_Soref
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  144. # [17:01] <plh> Present+ plh
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  148. # [17:01] <timeless> Present- (plh)
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  160. # [17:07] <glazou> has the meeting started or is it unminuted at this time?
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  162. # [17:07] <timeless> paulc: i'll be like the Baptist minister: "why are there no people in the front three pews?"
  163. # [17:07] <timeless> ... can people move in
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  166. # [17:07] <timeless> ... we have a polycom, on this side
  167. # [17:07] <timeless> ... please move in
  168. # [17:08] <timeless> s/has the meeting started or is it unminuted at this time?//
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  170. # [17:08] * timeless -> glazou : not enough people here to start
  171. # [17:08] * timeless we're waiting for people
  172. # [17:08] * glazou ok thanks timeless
  173. # [17:08] <timeless> paulc: we're waiting for darobin
  174. # [17:09] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  175. # [17:09] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  176. # [17:09] <tantek> good morning #html-wg - lurking here in IRC while in the AB meeting in person a few doors down.
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  180. # [17:10] <timeless> Zakim, call santa-barbara
  181. # [17:10] <Zakim> I am sorry, timeless; I do not know a number for santa-barbara
  182. # [17:10] <timeless> Zakim, call santabarbara
  183. # [17:10] <Zakim> ok, timeless; the call is being made
  184. # [17:10] <Zakim> HTML_WG()11:30AM has now started
  185. # [17:10] <Zakim> +Santabarbara
  186. # [17:10] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
  187. # [17:10] <Zakim> On the phone I see Santabarbara
  188. # [17:10] <timeless> Zakim, Santabarbara has rubys, paulc, timeless, MikeSmith
  189. # [17:10] <Zakim> +rubys, paulc, timeless, MikeSmith; got it
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  191. # [17:11] <adrianba> Present+ Adrian_Bateman
  192. # [17:11] * timeless other people are present, and we can use "zakim, johny has entered Santabarbara"
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  202. # [17:13] <timeless> Zakim, darobin has entered Santabarbara
  203. # [17:13] <Zakim> +darobin; got it
  204. # [17:13] <timeless> topic: Introduction
  205. # [17:13] <timeless> paulc: good morning
  206. # [17:13] <timeless> ... i'm Paul Cotton, cochair WG
  207. # [17:14] <timeless> MikeSmith: Michael Smith, W3C
  208. # [17:14] <timeless> Josh_Soref: Josh Soref, BlackBerry, Scribe, Observer
  209. # [17:14] <timeless> AAA: aaa
  210. # [17:14] <timeless> BBB: bbb
  211. # [17:14] <timeless> CCC: ccc
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  213. # [17:14] <timeless> DDD: ddd
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  215. # [17:14] <timeless> darobin: Robin Berjon, W3C
  216. # [17:14] <timeless> EEE: eee
  217. # [17:14] <timeless> plh: PLH
  218. # [17:14] <timeless> rubys: Sam Ruby, cochair
  219. # [17:15] <timeless> FFF: fff
  220. # [17:15] <timeless> GGG: ggg
  221. # [17:15] <timeless> HHH: hhh
  222. # [17:15] <timeless> III: iii
  223. # [17:15] <Cyril> s/AAA: aaa/Cyril: Cyril Concolato, Institut Telecom, interested in the Media TF work/
  224. # [17:15] <zcorpan_> s/EEE: eee/zcorpan: Simon Pieters, Opera Software/
  225. # [17:15] <timeless> JJJ: jjj
  226. # [17:15] <timeless> MMM: mmm
  227. # [17:15] <timeless> NNN: nnn
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  230. # [17:16] <timeless> paulc: we're on #html-wg
  231. # [17:16] * SteveF_ is now known as SteveF
  232. # [17:16] <timeless> ... Josh_Soref is scribing, thank you josh
  233. # [17:16] <timeless> Topic: Agenda Bashing
  234. # [17:16] <Santabarbara> https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2014-10-Agenda#F2F_Topics
  235. # [17:16] <kurosawa> s/BBB: bbb/kurosawa: Takeshi Kurosawa, Mitsue-Links/
  236. # [17:16] <timeless> paulc: first item, First Screen Paint in Advance
  237. # [17:17] <timeless> ... discussed in Web Perf WG on Tuesday
  238. # [17:17] * glazou repeats his constraints:
  239. # [17:17] * glazou is interested in the following topics: Editing TF, After HTML5 and this afternoon joint meeting ; my only constraint is now: Pagination meeting in DIGIPUB until 11am ; thanks
  240. # [17:17] <timeless> ... there's an email on public-html
  241. # [17:17] <zcorpan_> <http://www.w3.org/mid/C99B14A348100349A457CD82738FB0AB1BCE0185@M1-MAIL-MBX03.internal.baidu.com>
  242. # [17:17] * Joins: stone (~stone@public.cloak)
  243. # [17:17] <timeless> ... because proponents would like to have a remote participant from China
  244. # [17:17] <timeless> ... and we're 15 hours behind China
  245. # [17:17] <timeless> ... i'm proposing to do that at 5pm today
  246. # [17:17] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
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  248. # [17:17] <timeless> ... that's 8am tomorrow morning
  249. # [17:17] <timeless> ... we can't do it tomorrow, since that's Saturday in China
  250. # [17:17] <rubys> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2014Oct/0062.html
  251. # [17:17] <timeless> ... that's locked
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  253. # [17:18] <timeless> ... fair amount of discussion in WebApps on Intentions (2 hours)
  254. # [17:18] <timeless> ... i don't know if anyone here wants to discuss that
  255. # [17:18] <timeless> ... Canvas TF, assume we'd want an update
  256. # [17:18] * plh added DOM4 test failures on the agenda
  257. # [17:18] <timeless> ... Media TF requested Friday morning
  258. # [17:18] <timeless> ... i've stretched that through 1pm
  259. # [17:18] <timeless> ... i've talked about starting at 8:30am tomorrow
  260. # [17:18] <timeless> ... Charter schedule tells us we do HTML5.1 and Canvas 2D level 2
  261. # [17:19] <timeless> ... there was at least a breakout session on After HTML5
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  263. # [17:19] <timeless> ... darobin started a discussion on public-html@ probably over a month ago
  264. # [17:19] <timeless> ... chairs suggest doing it first
  265. # [17:19] <timeless> ... i expect we should do it first, and also think about how much time we need for it
  266. # [17:19] <SteveF> +1 to paul on doing first
  267. # [17:19] <timeless> ... i included a link to outstanding HTML5 bugs
  268. # [17:19] <timeless> ... 288 of them
  269. # [17:19] <timeless> ... that's just searching bugzilla for the component
  270. # [17:20] <timeless> ... and it isn't obvious to me that that simple search is even right
  271. # [17:20] <timeless> ... in the press briefings on Monday
  272. # [17:20] <timeless> ... 40,000 emails
  273. # [17:20] <timeless> ... lots of formal objections
  274. # [17:20] <timeless> ... i didn't tell the press about outstanding bugs
  275. # [17:20] <timeless> ... --
  276. # [17:20] <timeless> ... 3 topics on Accessibility
  277. # [17:20] <timeless> ... the first is locked to this morning
  278. # [17:20] <timeless> ... it isn't obvious to me that we'll know how many accessibility people will be here to discuss
  279. # [17:21] <timeless> ... i went to the SVG meeting @9am this morning
  280. # [17:21] <timeless> ... to discuss this first topic after the break
  281. # [17:21] <timeless> ... -- the item about PFWG
  282. # [17:21] <timeless> ... Digital Publishing
  283. # [17:21] <timeless> ... they asked for a slot 4-5pm today
  284. # [17:21] <timeless> ... and we have a DOM4 status update: test failures
  285. # [17:21] <timeless> ... not sure about how long/how much time
  286. # [17:21] <timeless> ... Agenda...
  287. # [17:22] <timeless> ... we're in "Unconference"
  288. # [17:22] * Joins: darobin_ (rberjon@public.cloak)
  289. # [17:22] <timeless> ... we have a 10:45-11:15 Coffee break -- technically, coffee is over at 11am
  290. # [17:22] <timeless> ... I put our start inside the window,
  291. # [17:22] <timeless> ... first item, Accessibility topics Part 1 (11:15-1am)
  292. # [17:22] * Joins: paulliu (~paulliu@public.cloak)
  293. # [17:23] <timeless> ... slots 3 and 4 after lunch are open
  294. # [17:23] * Joins: igarashi (~igarashi@public.cloak)
  295. # [17:23] <timeless> ... Tomorrow
  296. # [17:23] <timeless> ... i've made some modifications already
  297. # [17:23] <timeless> ... I sent Media TF a list of EME bugs
  298. # [17:23] <timeless> ... I've suggested 3 slots for EME
  299. # [17:23] <timeless> ... so many things outstanding
  300. # [17:23] <timeless> ... w/ TAG's input we went from 19 to 26/27 bugs
  301. # [17:23] <timeless> ... and in last two weeks, we've closed only 2
  302. # [17:23] <timeless> ... we need to do MSE CR status/test suite review
  303. # [17:24] <timeless> ... we need to decide
  304. # [17:24] <timeless> ... where to put items
  305. # [17:24] * timeless glazou ?
  306. # [17:24] <timeless> ... anyone object to lockdown?
  307. # [17:24] * glazou yes ?
  308. # [17:24] <timeless> ... plh ?
  309. # [17:24] * timeless repeat your time constraints
  310. # [17:24] <timeless> plh: glazou wanted to be around for HTML5 discussion
  311. # [17:24] <timeless> ... but he's blocked until 1pm
  312. # [17:24] * Joins: wooglae (~Adium@public.cloak)
  313. # [17:24] * glazou busy until 11am , no constraint afterwards, away tomorrow
  314. # [17:24] <timeless> s/1pm/11am/
  315. # [17:25] <timeless> plh: and he's leaving today
  316. # [17:25] <timeless> ... i'm guessing we won't be able to accommodate him
  317. # [17:25] * Quits: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  318. # [17:25] <timeless> paulc: say we start After HTML5 discussion at 9:30m
  319. # [17:25] <timeless> s/30m/30am/
  320. # [17:25] <timeless> ... would we need a second block?
  321. # [17:25] <timeless> plh: probably
  322. # [17:26] <timeless> paulc: people could discuss over break/lunch
  323. # [17:26] <timeless> ... and we could do a second slot after lunch, and glazou could come to that
  324. # [17:26] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak) ("My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
  325. # [17:26] * glazou no problem ; timeless minutes are good enough I can follow on IRC but I would really like to attend the Editing TF
  326. # [17:26] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  327. # [17:27] <timeless> paulc: adrianba, is ben still here?
  328. # [17:27] <timeless> adrianba: he's left
  329. # [17:27] <timeless> darobin_: without ben, it will be hard
  330. # [17:27] <timeless> paulc: it's going to be short
  331. # [17:27] <timeless> ... put that item at 2pm for 15 mins today
  332. # [17:27] <timeless> s/darobin_:/darobin:/G
  333. # [17:27] * Joins: AndroUser2 (~iga@public.cloak)
  334. # [17:27] <timeless> paulc: and maybe darobin_ can find the webapps minutes?
  335. # [17:27] * Joins: r12a (rishida@public.cloak)
  336. # [17:28] <timeless> s/ darobin_/ darobin/G
  337. # [17:28] <timeless> paulc: Canvas TF, maybe 15 mins after that?
  338. # [17:28] <timeless> rubys: make sense to slice Accessibility slot to cover Canvas ?
  339. # [17:28] * Quits: MarkVickers (~MarkVickers@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  340. # [17:28] <timeless> paulc: not the first slot
  341. # [17:28] <timeless> ... so add that to the 4-5pm slot today
  342. # [17:29] * Joins: MarkVickers (~MarkVickers@public.cloak)
  343. # [17:29] <timeless> [ hober spills coffee ]
  344. # [17:29] <glazou> Present+ Shane_Stevens
  345. # [17:29] <timeless> hober: i'll remain anonymous for now
  346. # [17:29] * Quits: afz (~afz@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  347. # [17:29] <timeless> paulc: 2pm slot this afternoon, Editing TF
  348. # [17:29] <timeless> ... plh, can we do DOM4 status in <15 mins?
  349. # [17:30] <timeless> darobin_: if we want to discuss bugs, we need more
  350. # [17:30] * Joins: tomoyuki (~tomoyuki@public.cloak)
  351. # [17:30] <timeless> paulc: what about the 45 mins
  352. # [17:30] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  353. # [17:30] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak)
  354. # [17:30] <timeless> darobin_: we'd like to do DOM4 tomorrow to have time to run more tests
  355. # [17:30] <timeless> paulc: ok... look down for tomorrow
  356. # [17:30] <timeless> ... paulc ddorwin , MarkS , others, can we start 8:30 tomorrow morning?
  357. # [17:31] * Joins: ShaneM_ (~ShaneM@public.cloak)
  358. # [17:31] <timeless> ... everyone put up their hand if they'll be at tomorrow morning
  359. # [17:31] <timeless> ... noon, 1pm, 2pm, 3pm
  360. # [17:31] <timeless> ... 4pm
  361. # [17:31] <timeless> ... that seems to say we can go pretty deep
  362. # [17:31] <timeless> ... but since ddorwin is editor of EME
  363. # [17:31] * Quits: tomoyuki (~tomoyuki@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  364. # [17:31] <timeless> ... and w/ children who want to go out for Halloween
  365. # [17:31] <timeless> ... and people rant about Halloween -- TPAC
  366. # [17:32] <timeless> ... change 09:00 to 8:30
  367. # [17:32] * Quits: ShaneM (~ShaneM@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  368. # [17:32] <timeless> ... ddorwin leaves at 1pm
  369. # [17:32] <timeless> ... do lunch until 2pm
  370. # [17:32] * Joins: tomoyuki (~tomoyuki@public.cloak)
  371. # [17:32] <timeless> ... Session 11 - 2pm-3pm
  372. # [17:32] * Quits: paulc (~paulc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  373. # [17:32] <timeless> ... that can be DOM4
  374. # [17:32] * Joins: ddorwin1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
  375. # [17:33] <timeless> ... (test failures)
  376. # [17:33] <timeless> ... start EME bugs Part 1 at 8:30am tomorrow
  377. # [17:33] * Quits: Cyril (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  378. # [17:33] <timeless> hober: Ted O Connor, Apple
  379. # [17:33] * darobin_ is now known as darobin
  380. # [17:34] * Quits: AndroUser2 (~iga@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  381. # [17:35] * Joins: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak)
  382. # [17:35] <timeless> paulc: ddorwin did you confirm that acolwell
  383. # [17:35] <timeless> ... move the MSE CR status to 12:30AM-1PM
  384. # [17:35] * Quits: ddorwin (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  385. # [17:36] <timeless> ... and expand Part to 11:00-12:30PM
  386. # [17:36] <timeless> ... 4 hours of EME tomorrow morning
  387. # [17:36] <timeless> ... break for lunch
  388. # [17:36] <timeless> ... come back for DOM4
  389. # [17:36] <timeless> [ Agenda reloads ]
  390. # [17:36] * timeless ddorwin1 did i spell ac* right?
  391. # [17:37] <timeless> paulc: move back to Day 1
  392. # [17:37] <timeless> ... I think we can shrink Editing TF to 2pm-2:30pm
  393. # [17:37] <timeless> ... Session 4 should be After HTML5 part 2 2:30-3:30pm
  394. # [17:37] <timeless> ... if Editing TF ends early, we'll segway straight to After HTML5
  395. # [17:38] <timeless> s/ddorwin1/ddorwin/G
  396. # [17:38] * Quits: igarashi (~igarashi@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  397. # [17:38] <timeless> ... what have we missed?
  398. # [17:38] <timeless> ... Canvas2D level 2 -> after html5
  399. # [17:38] <timeless> .... accessibility part one partly covered
  400. # [17:38] <timeless> s/.../../
  401. # [17:38] <timeless> ... accessibility part 2 isn't covered
  402. # [17:39] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (mjs)
  403. # [17:39] <timeless> ... did we know how we were going to cover this?
  404. # [17:39] <timeless> ... SteveF ?
  405. # [17:39] <timeless> ... name computation, access key, captcha ?
  406. # [17:39] <timeless> ... was I overly zealous by adding this to the wiki?
  407. # [17:39] * Joins: igarashi (~iga@public.cloak)
  408. # [17:39] <timeless> SteveF: I can see, but I have no idea
  409. # [17:39] <timeless> paulc: since we'll see PF at 11:15am today
  410. # [17:40] <timeless> ... we'll have to ask them what they want to do w/ A11Y-part2
  411. # [17:40] * tantek tries to track "After HTML5"
  412. # [17:40] <timeless> ... I know footnotes, roles, validation have to be today
  413. # [17:40] * timeless see agenda#f2f_topics
  414. # [17:40] <timeless> paulc: add A11y-part2 to 30min slot after DOM4 tomorrow
  415. # [17:40] <timeless> ... session 12
  416. # [17:41] <timeless> ... other comments on topics?
  417. # [17:41] * timeless tantek anything you want to raise?
  418. # [17:41] * tantek timeless just trying to keep track of when is "After HTML5".
  419. # [17:41] <timeless> paulc: i suspect tantek is interested in After HTML5 on maintenance
  420. # [17:42] <timeless> hober: AC meeting starts at 11am?
  421. # [17:42] <timeless> [ yes ]
  422. # [17:42] <timeless> Travis: did we want to discuss extension specs?
  423. # [17:42] <timeless> paulc: good point
  424. # [17:42] <timeless> ... Longdesc from A11y
  425. # [17:42] <timeless> ... Canvas if you want to treat it
  426. # [17:42] <timeless> ... EME
  427. # [17:42] * Joins: Yves (ylafon@public.cloak)
  428. # [17:42] <timeless> ... MSE
  429. # [17:42] * plh hober, https://www.w3.org/2014/11/TPAC/ac#thursday
  430. # [17:43] <timeless> ... i can give you an oral report on longdesc
  431. # [17:43] <timeless> ... right now
  432. # [17:43] <timeless> travis: any other submissions to glance over
  433. # [17:43] <timeless> ... we have a wiki of extensions
  434. # [17:43] <rubys> https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2014-10-Agenda#F2F_Topics
  435. # [17:43] <timeless> paulc: move A11y topic to after Coffee (Session 13)
  436. # [17:43] <timeless> ... and do status rundown of all extension specs tomorrow (session 12 before coffee)
  437. # [17:44] <timeless> ... if a11y people don't want to meet tomorrow
  438. # [17:44] <timeless> ... and we don't have overflow topics
  439. # [17:44] <timeless> ... we might adjourn at coffee tomorrow
  440. # [17:44] <timeless> [ Refreshes Agenda ]
  441. # [17:44] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  442. # [17:44] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  443. # [17:44] <timeless> paulc: we could do URL (webapps) in Extensions
  444. # [17:44] <timeless> ... other topics?
  445. # [17:44] <timeless> ... ok, i think we have an agenda
  446. # [17:45] <timeless> Topic: After HTML5
  447. # [17:45] <timeless> paulc: darobin, shall i give you the floor?
  448. # [17:45] <timeless> ... assume 1/2 the people know what you're talking about
  449. # [17:45] <timeless> darobin: hey, we finished HTML5, by the way
  450. # [17:45] <timeless> MikeSmith: Yay
  451. # [17:45] <rubys> http://darobin.github.io/after5/
  452. # [17:45] <timeless> [ Applause ]
  453. # [17:46] <timeless> darobin: what's next, do we go home, and sip margaritas
  454. # [17:46] <timeless> ... or do we keep doing some work
  455. # [17:46] <timeless> ... not sure how much detail i should go
  456. # [17:46] <timeless> ... maybe highlights, and then deeper w/ Qs
  457. # [17:46] <timeless> ... rubys suggested "The best way to get the right answer on the Internet is not to ask a question, it's to post the wrong answer."
  458. # [17:46] <timeless> ... if you don't like it and don't speak up, it will become a decision
  459. # [17:47] <timeless> ... it would be wonderful to increase participation
  460. # [17:47] <timeless> ... the people who built the kittens... namely web developers
  461. # [17:47] <timeless> ... we built the technology
  462. # [17:47] <timeless> ... we should meet somewhere
  463. # [17:47] <timeless> ... editors would agree that the way we managed publication of HTML5 was painful
  464. # [17:47] * Quits: igarashi (~iga@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  465. # [17:47] <timeless> ... maybe learn from world of software development
  466. # [17:47] * Joins: wseltzer (wseltzer@public.cloak)
  467. # [17:47] <timeless> ... Nightly version, stabilize
  468. # [17:47] <timeless> ... features
  469. # [17:48] <timeless> ... try to avoid 120,000 lines of code in a single file
  470. # [17:48] <timeless> ... orthoganalize features to make progress independently
  471. # [17:48] * Joins: xiaoqian (xiaoqian@public.cloak)
  472. # [17:48] <timeless> ... cut spec into smaller parts
  473. # [17:48] <timeless> ... ship them
  474. # [17:48] <timeless> ... focus on the bits
  475. # [17:48] <timeless> ... adopt classic open source process
  476. # [17:48] <timeless> ... pull request
  477. # [17:48] <timeless> ... so people can join in
  478. # [17:48] <timeless> ... not revolution
  479. # [17:48] <timeless> ... try to rationalize
  480. # [17:49] <timeless> ... no vibe of outrage at this point
  481. # [17:49] <timeless> paulc: some discussion here
  482. # [17:49] <timeless> ... WG would have to come to a decision about what it does
  483. # [17:49] <timeless> ... so, start w/ Qs
  484. # [17:49] <timeless> ... 1. what do we do w/ the 300 outstanding bugs?
  485. # [17:49] <timeless> darobin: good Q. triage them
  486. # [17:49] <timeless> ... i suspect quite a few have been fixed, but we haven't closed the bug yet
  487. # [17:49] <timeless> ... figure out which ones can be closed as Errata to HTML5
  488. # [17:49] <timeless> ... small bugs
  489. # [17:50] <timeless> ... maybe a shame to do Errata once we publish REC
  490. # [17:50] <timeless> ... but we have to, it's cycle of life
  491. # [17:50] * Joins: maheshkk (~maheshkk@public.cloak)
  492. # [17:50] <timeless> ... last batch, new work, new modules
  493. # [17:50] <timeless> ... for them, push to modules and focus on that
  494. # [17:50] <timeless> ... in some cases highlight what to work on
  495. # [17:50] <timeless> travis: under previous process
  496. # [17:50] <timeless> ... editors generated new content
  497. # [17:50] <timeless> ... fixed bugs in our component
  498. # [17:50] <timeless> ... we'd have bugs fixed by whatwg component
  499. # [17:50] <timeless> ... a large portion of our job was to synchronize
  500. # [17:51] <timeless> ... from shared source and push into our branch
  501. # [17:51] <timeless> ... under this after5 plan
  502. # [17:51] <timeless> ... what is the plan/philosophy to keep in sync/not-in-sync
  503. # [17:51] <timeless> darobin: you're an editor, what do you think?
  504. # [17:51] <timeless> travis: i'd love to see
  505. # [17:51] <timeless> ... probably not realistic
  506. # [17:51] <timeless> ... i'd love contributors from whatwg to participate in our process
  507. # [17:51] <timeless> ... pull requests
  508. # [17:51] <timeless> ... approved
  509. # [17:52] <timeless> ... short of that, i don't really know
  510. # [17:52] * Joins: paulc (~paulc@public.cloak)
  511. # [17:52] <timeless> ... i know we need to be sensisitive to their desires
  512. # [17:52] <plh> q+
  513. # [17:52] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
  514. # [17:52] <timeless> ... if they're ok w/ pulling relevant content across or not
  515. # [17:52] <MarkVickers> q+
  516. # [17:52] * Zakim sees plh, MarkVickers on the speaker queue
  517. # [17:52] <timeless> ack plh
  518. # [17:52] * Zakim sees MarkVickers on the speaker queue
  519. # [17:52] <timeless> plh: call a cat a cat
  520. # [17:52] <timeless> ... hixie has said he wanted w3c to stop copying his work
  521. # [17:53] <timeless> ... we agreed for the purpose of shipping html5
  522. # [17:53] <timeless> ... we looked at whatwg as submission to html5 spec
  523. # [17:53] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
  524. # [17:53] * Joins: AndroUser2 (~iga@public.cloak)
  525. # [17:53] * Joins: sunghan (~sunghan@public.cloak)
  526. # [17:53] <timeless> ... html5 spec shipped
  527. # [17:53] <timeless> ... what do we do, he wants us to stop copying his work
  528. # [17:53] <timeless> ack MarkVickers
  529. # [17:53] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  530. # [17:53] <timeless> MarkVickers: i don't have an answer to that Q
  531. # [17:53] * Joins: Hitoshi_ (~Hitoshi@public.cloak)
  532. # [17:53] <timeless> ... i think, the idea that this would be modular, able to react to submissions
  533. # [17:53] <timeless> ... is a much better way of going forward
  534. # [17:54] <timeless> ... i think a large document approach is difficult for people to track inside/outside
  535. # [17:54] <timeless> ... DataQ is hard
  536. # [17:54] <timeless> ... it doesn't mean anything, quite arbitrary
  537. # [17:54] <rubys> q+
  538. # [17:54] * Zakim sees rubys on the speaker queue
  539. # [17:54] <timeless> ... much better if you could look up where it is based on Tests/Implementation
  540. # [17:54] <paulc> q+
  541. # [17:54] * Zakim sees rubys, paulc on the speaker queue
  542. # [17:54] <timeless> ... i think better by
  543. # [17:54] <timeless> ... whatwg
  544. # [17:54] <timeless> ... I think the whatwg doesn't like the current structure
  545. # [17:54] <timeless> ... they did it to keep in sync
  546. # [17:54] <timeless> ... perhaps we should have a joint conversation
  547. # [17:54] <timeless> ack rubys
  548. # [17:54] * Zakim sees paulc on the speaker queue
  549. # [17:55] <timeless> rubys: comment on the way i work
  550. # [17:55] <timeless> ... i don't work well on abstract things
  551. # [17:55] <timeless> ... you mentioned DataQ
  552. # [17:55] <timeless> ... what needs to be addressed in 3, 10, 12, 15 months
  553. # [17:55] <timeless> ... maybe it makes sense to work on small things
  554. # [17:55] <timeless> ... DataQ
  555. # [17:55] <timeless> ... and we look at a resync w/ whatwg in 2-5 years
  556. # [17:55] <timeless> ack paulc
  557. # [17:55] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  558. # [17:55] <timeless> paulc: darobin, your original proposal said break up this 1300 page document into modules
  559. # [17:55] <timeless> ... but as rubys implied, that's fairly abstract
  560. # [17:56] <timeless> ... can we talk about how we'd do that
  561. # [17:56] <timeless> ... rubys took MarkVickers 's suggestion
  562. # [17:56] <timeless> ... all the things we took out of for CR
  563. # [17:56] <timeless> ... "almost there"
  564. # [17:56] <timeless> ... but if we told Editorial staff to break it up into modules, what would you do?
  565. # [17:56] <timeless> darobin: 2 things
  566. # [17:56] <timeless> ... saner: focus on either things we cut out for CR / moved to 5.1
  567. # [17:56] <timeless> ... or things that need updates
  568. # [17:56] <timeless> ... SteveF's Area mapping
  569. # [17:57] <timeless> ... that would make sense to keep progressing
  570. # [17:57] <timeless> SteveF: Areas ...
  571. # [17:57] <timeless> ... i can't remember the number, ARIA native semantic buttons
  572. # [17:57] <timeless> ... map Areas of abstract mapping tool
  573. # [17:57] * timeless ????
  574. # [17:57] <timeless> ... that section
  575. # [17:57] <timeless> ... but there's a number of other sections
  576. # [17:57] <timeless> ... another, the alt= guidance
  577. # [17:57] * Joins: Travis (~Travis@public.cloak)
  578. # [17:58] <timeless> ... in a more general sense, conformance requirements, + authoring advice
  579. # [17:58] <timeless> ... but that covers a lot of the spec in discrete parts
  580. # [17:58] <Travis> q+
  581. # [17:58] * Zakim sees Travis on the speaker queue
  582. # [17:58] <timeless> ... i don't see how that would be excised out
  583. # [17:58] <timeless> paulc: ARIA Roles
  584. # [17:58] <timeless> ... containable
  585. # [17:58] <timeless> s/Areas/ARIA Roles/
  586. # [17:58] <timeless> s/Areas/ARIA Roles/
  587. # [17:58] <timeless> ... 3rd Guidance, spread through document
  588. # [17:58] <timeless> ... alt= guidance
  589. # [17:59] <timeless> ... TextPP has work that's about to be published as a note
  590. # [17:59] <timeless> ... is that containable?
  591. # [17:59] * Joins: astearns (~sid15080@public.cloak)
  592. # [17:59] <timeless> SteveF: yes, that's containable, in a single section
  593. # [17:59] <timeless> paulc: the first two are examples
  594. # [17:59] <timeless> ... modules
  595. # [17:59] <timeless> ... but the third one?
  596. # [17:59] <timeless> darobin: i don't know about it...
  597. # [17:59] <timeless> ... we'd have to discuss
  598. # [17:59] <paulc> q+
  599. # [17:59] * Zakim sees Travis, paulc on the speaker queue
  600. # [17:59] <timeless> ... MikeSmith mentioned interleaving authoring conformance might not be a good idea
  601. # [17:59] <timeless> ... perhaps have a separate document
  602. # [18:00] <timeless> SteveF: i agree
  603. # [18:00] <timeless> ... it's unclear what the best path forward for it is
  604. # [18:00] <timeless> ... but we need to work out that path
  605. # [18:00] <timeless> ack Travis
  606. # [18:00] * Zakim sees paulc on the speaker queue
  607. # [18:00] <timeless> Travis: rubys got me thinking a bit about a more practical route
  608. # [18:00] <timeless> ... thanks rubys
  609. # [18:00] <SteveF> q+
  610. # [18:00] * Zakim sees paulc, SteveF on the speaker queue
  611. # [18:00] <timeless> ... as i look back over those bugs
  612. # [18:00] <timeless> ... i recall one that jumped out at me
  613. # [18:00] <timeless> ... implement a true tri-state checkbox
  614. # [18:00] <timeless> ... not dual indeterminate
  615. # [18:01] <timeless> ... that sounds like a great thing to be as a module
  616. # [18:01] <timeless> ... hook it up
  617. # [18:01] <timeless> ... then i thought, if you do that w/ bugs
  618. # [18:01] <timeless> ... why not review what's in 5.1
  619. # [18:01] <timeless> ... diff against 5.0
  620. # [18:01] <timeless> ... look at things that are unique
  621. # [18:01] <timeless> ... review, see if they could be moved out as modules
  622. # [18:01] <plh> http://www.w3.org/html/landscape/#differences-between-w3c-html-5.1-and-w3c-html-5.0
  623. # [18:01] <timeless> ... not spend the effort to rip the document apart
  624. # [18:01] <timeless> ... but work on the parts we want to progress
  625. # [18:01] <timeless> darobin: i think that makes sense
  626. # [18:01] <timeless> ... we had a session yesterday as a breakout
  627. # [18:02] <timeless> ... rubys suggested a continuously maintained
  628. # [18:02] <timeless> ... 5.0.1 spec
  629. # [18:02] <timeless> ... that shrinks as things move into modules
  630. # [18:02] <timeless> ... we don't need to cut everything out
  631. # [18:02] <plh> q+
  632. # [18:02] <timeless> ... maybe we don't need a new spec for <p/>
  633. # [18:02] <timeless> ... <form>s are a mess
  634. # [18:02] * Zakim sees paulc, SteveF, plh on the speaker queue
  635. # [18:02] <timeless> paulc: are they as bad as <ruby> ?
  636. # [18:02] <timeless> ... scale of 1..<ruby>, how bad are <form>s?
  637. # [18:02] <timeless> darobin: <form>s are bad
  638. # [18:02] <timeless> ... most new types are unusable
  639. # [18:03] <timeless> ... developers scream, like <select multiple>
  640. # [18:03] <timeless> ack paulc
  641. # [18:03] * Zakim sees SteveF, plh on the speaker queue
  642. # [18:03] <timeless> paulc: i wanted to ask question
  643. # [18:03] <timeless> ... stemming from Travis's Q about linkage to WHATWG
  644. # [18:03] <timeless> ... but link to Qs here
  645. # [18:03] <timeless> ... we have ~300 bugs
  646. # [18:03] <timeless> ... looking at those
  647. # [18:03] <darobin> q+
  648. # [18:03] * Zakim sees SteveF, plh, darobin on the speaker queue
  649. # [18:03] <timeless> ... talked about modularization
  650. # [18:03] <timeless> ... where we want to do work/where there is work
  651. # [18:03] <timeless> ... Q-- Hixie said don't copy my work
  652. # [18:04] <timeless> ... what items are different in WHATWG spec
  653. # [18:04] <timeless> ... than 5.0/5.1ED ?
  654. # [18:04] <plh> http://www.w3.org/html/landscape/#differences-between-whatwg-html-ls-and-w3c-html-5.1
  655. # [18:04] <timeless> ... enumerate places where we could find modules
  656. # [18:04] <timeless> ... what are similar things in WHATWG that Hixie wouldn't want us to copy?
  657. # [18:04] <rubys> http://www.w3.org/html/landscape/
  658. # [18:04] <timeless> Travis: looking at this document would help
  659. # [18:04] <timeless> ... canvas-proxy
  660. # [18:04] <timeless> ... move canvas controller to WebWorker
  661. # [18:05] <timeless> ... and drive from off thread
  662. # [18:05] <timeless> darobin: we have that in 5.1
  663. # [18:05] <timeless> Travis: but what is in WHATWG that aren't in 5.1?
  664. # [18:05] <timeless> ... 3 months of work
  665. # [18:05] <timeless> darobin: mostly bug fixes
  666. # [18:05] <plh> q-
  667. # [18:05] * Zakim sees SteveF, darobin on the speaker queue
  668. # [18:05] <timeless> paulc: so, bug fixes
  669. # [18:05] <timeless> ... some might correlate w/ 288 bugs we have
  670. # [18:05] <timeless> ... some might not correlate, things that Hixie has already fixed
  671. # [18:06] <timeless> ... Hixie might have done new novel work on things in 5.1 or not
  672. # [18:06] <timeless> ... maybe he moved canvas-proxy on substantially?
  673. # [18:06] * Quits: ShaneM_ (~ShaneM@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  674. # [18:06] <timeless> ... then decide "do we want to work on canvas-proxy, or not?"
  675. # [18:06] * Joins: Cyril (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  676. # [18:06] <timeless> Travis: do we grandfather in things in 5.1 as "already copied?"
  677. # [18:06] <Cyril> RRSAgent, pointer
  678. # [18:06] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-irc#T17-06-38
  679. # [18:06] <timeless> paulc: something WG has to decide, valid Q
  680. # [18:06] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  681. # [18:06] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  682. # [18:06] <MarkVickers> q+
  683. # [18:06] * Zakim sees SteveF, darobin, MarkVickers on the speaker queue
  684. # [18:07] <timeless> paulc: specs is like any software engineering project, we have to triage
  685. # [18:07] <timeless> rubys: we can walk through doc, or after 5
  686. # [18:07] <timeless> paulc: can you show me in Landscape
  687. # [18:07] <timeless> plh: click "2."
  688. # [18:07] <timeless> rubys: first bullet isn't workitem, second isn't, third isn't, fourth isn't
  689. # [18:07] <timeless> ... fifth is
  690. # [18:07] <timeless> ... "Different ARIA role constraints"
  691. # [18:08] <timeless> s/.../paulc:/
  692. # [18:08] <timeless> ... but SteveF already mentioned
  693. # [18:08] <timeless> [ Looser ]
  694. # [18:08] <timeless> darobin: not a work item
  695. # [18:08] <timeless> ... it's done
  696. # [18:08] <timeless> paulc: longdesc, we know what's happening, extension spec
  697. # [18:08] <timeless> ... tables, not a work item
  698. # [18:08] <timeless> ... <main> element
  699. # [18:08] <timeless> ... - not a workitem
  700. # [18:09] <timeless> darobin: table-border, please let us not work on that
  701. # [18:09] <timeless> paulc: chairs would agree
  702. # [18:09] <timeless> ... SHOULD on <h..>
  703. # [18:09] <timeless> darobin: work item
  704. # [18:09] <timeless> ... but...
  705. # [18:09] * Quits: panzana` (~panzana@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  706. # [18:09] <timeless> ... a lot of those are authoring document conformance things
  707. # [18:09] <timeless> ... perhaps as a module
  708. # [18:09] * Joins: panzana` (~panzana@public.cloak)
  709. # [18:09] <timeless> paulc: task to put in front of ourselves
  710. # [18:09] <tantek> hello #html-wg - sitting in second U-ring behind rubys
  711. # [18:09] <timeless> ... take this content, have WG decide work on/isn't
  712. # [18:10] <timeless> rubys: precursor, i think this list needs an update
  713. # [18:10] <timeless> ... last updated June
  714. # [18:10] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
  715. # [18:10] <timeless> ... update list, triage list, publish
  716. # [18:10] <timeless> q?
  717. # [18:10] * Zakim sees SteveF, darobin, MarkVickers on the speaker queue
  718. # [18:10] <timeless> ack SteveF
  719. # [18:10] * Zakim sees darobin, MarkVickers on the speaker queue
  720. # [18:10] <timeless> SteveF: starting to get somewhat of a clearer idea
  721. # [18:10] <darobin> ACTION: Robin to triage new WHATWG updates, HTML bugs, Landscape document in order to list priority content for modules
  722. # [18:10] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
  723. # [18:10] * RRSAgent records action 1
  724. # [18:10] <trackbot> Created ACTION-249 - Triage new whatwg updates, html bugs, landscape document in order to list priority content for modules [on Robin Berjon - due 2014-11-06].
  725. # [18:10] <timeless> ... not really
  726. # [18:10] <timeless> ... we have shipped HTML5.0
  727. # [18:10] <timeless> ... we'll work on that
  728. # [18:10] <timeless> ... in Errata
  729. # [18:11] <timeless> ... that just includes non-normative bug fixes?
  730. # [18:11] * Joins: Hitoshi__ (~Hitoshi@public.cloak)
  731. # [18:11] <timeless> rubys: everything's open for discussion
  732. # [18:11] <timeless> ... you could make that as a proposal
  733. # [18:11] <timeless> SteveF: we've got that document, do we maintain it
  734. # [18:11] <timeless> ... or let it go?
  735. # [18:11] <timeless> paulc: i'll answer that (maybe w3meme)
  736. # [18:11] <timeless> ... Tuesday memed speaking for directory
  737. # [18:11] <timeless> ... now memed for CEO?
  738. # [18:12] <timeless> ... at AC meeting he said RRR
  739. # [18:12] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  740. # [18:12] <timeless> ... how we do that, it's up to us
  741. # [18:12] <timeless> s/RRR/how we maintain stuff/
  742. # [18:12] * Joins: hiroto (~hiroto@public.cloak)
  743. # [18:12] * Joins: taku (~taku@public.cloak)
  744. # [18:12] <timeless> SteveF: part of maintenance is to continue to pull in fixes from whatwg source
  745. # [18:12] * Quits: Hitoshi_ (~Hitoshi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  746. # [18:12] <timeless> ... not features. but bug fixes
  747. # [18:12] <timeless> paulc: rubys can you find the text from Process document?
  748. # [18:12] * Joins: ShaneM (~ShaneM@public.cloak)
  749. # [18:13] <tantek> hello #html-wg - sitting in second U-ring behind rubys
  750. # [18:13] <timeless> timeless: the Process document has an inconsistent set of topics
  751. # [18:13] <timeless> ... for what updates are
  752. # [18:13] <timeless> ... (Errata)
  753. # [18:14] <timeless> ... there's work for Process 2015/2016
  754. # [18:14] <timeless> ... but you're on an older Process
  755. # [18:14] <timeless> SteveF: we have 5.0, and 5.1
  756. # [18:14] * Joins: khoya (~khoya@public.cloak)
  757. # [18:14] <timeless> ... we have a plan to ship 5.1 at some point
  758. # [18:14] <timeless> ... why not see 5.1 as maintenance of 5.0
  759. # [18:14] <tantek> q?
  760. # [18:14] * Zakim sees darobin, MarkVickers on the speaker queue
  761. # [18:14] <timeless> ... pull things out of 5.1 as modules
  762. # [18:14] <paulc> q+
  763. # [18:14] * Zakim sees darobin, MarkVickers, paulc on the speaker queue
  764. # [18:14] <timeless> ... but continue to keep stuff current in 5.1
  765. # [18:14] <timeless> ... that's currently in there
  766. # [18:14] <timeless> ... but new work independently
  767. # [18:15] <timeless> ack darobin
  768. # [18:15] * Zakim sees MarkVickers, paulc on the speaker queue
  769. # [18:15] <timeless> darobin: several aspects
  770. # [18:15] <timeless> ... i would not want to work off current 5.1 document
  771. # [18:15] <timeless> ... if we can avoid it
  772. # [18:15] <timeless> ... it has a million things we want to split out as modules
  773. # [18:15] <tantek> q+ to formally propose "maintenance" release should only be bug fixes, and thus a 5.0.1. Anything anyone wants to keep in 5.1 which is new from 5.0 should be split out as modules.
  774. # [18:15] * Zakim sees MarkVickers, paulc, tantek on the speaker queue
  775. # [18:15] * Joins: sunghan_ (~sunghan@public.cloak)
  776. # [18:15] <timeless> ... a million things that will never be implemented
  777. # [18:15] <timeless> ... i think it'd be saner to work from CR branch
  778. # [18:15] <timeless> ... re: what we take in as Errata
  779. # [18:15] <timeless> ... up to whoever does the work, how deep we go
  780. # [18:16] <timeless> ... suggest we not spend too much time on non-normative
  781. # [18:16] <timeless> ... focus on solid bugs
  782. # [18:16] <tantek> +1 on focus on *normative* maintenance
  783. # [18:16] <timeless> ... make Errata for them and release that
  784. # [18:16] <timeless> ... make job simpler by dropping entire Canvas from source document
  785. # [18:16] <timeless> ... we aren't producing that, Canvas TF doesn't generate from that branch anyway
  786. # [18:16] <timeless> ... and similar
  787. # [18:16] <timeless> ... -- one thing i've been keeping in mind
  788. # [18:16] * Joins: Zefa (~Zefa@public.cloak)
  789. # [18:16] <tantek> +1 to darobin points about 5.1 has too much in it. Saner to work from CR branch.
  790. # [18:17] <timeless> ... we can no longer merge from WHATWG/master -- too far away
  791. # [18:17] <timeless> ... but might want to be notified about bug fixes
  792. # [18:17] <timeless> ... various ways to be notified
  793. # [18:17] <timeless> ... we can apply a similar fix
  794. # [18:17] <timeless> rubys: several people nodded
  795. # [18:17] <timeless> darobin: editors nodding (maybe falling asleep?)
  796. # [18:17] <timeless> ack MarkVickers
  797. # [18:17] * Zakim sees paulc, tantek on the speaker queue
  798. # [18:17] <tantek> strong agreement with darobin's proposals
  799. # [18:17] <timeless> MarkVickers: "do not copy whatwg work" comment concerns me
  800. # [18:17] <rubys> q+
  801. # [18:17] * Zakim sees paulc, tantek, rubys on the speaker queue
  802. # [18:17] <timeless> ... i see great opportunity
  803. # [18:18] <timeless> ... but at some point, things have to come together as one spec
  804. # [18:18] <timeless> ... in order to have one web
  805. # [18:18] <timeless> ... it seems we have two specs, and we're splitting the web
  806. # [18:18] <timeless> ... what i saw in what darobin wrote
  807. # [18:18] <timeless> ... is very small modules
  808. # [18:18] <timeless> ... software depo level, each numbered section is a small file
  809. # [18:18] <timeless> ... check out 4.7.10.2
  810. # [18:18] <timeless> ... add a new file for new number representing a new project
  811. # [18:19] <timeless> ... instead saying what we think is 5.1
  812. # [18:19] <timeless> ... and working
  813. # [18:19] <timeless> ... instead have a clock-based
  814. # [18:19] <timeless> ... what things have reached agreed upon threshold
  815. # [18:19] <timeless> ... say 2 implementations
  816. # [18:19] <timeless> ... say "April 1" release
  817. # [18:19] <timeless> ... is those things
  818. # [18:19] <paulc> q-
  819. # [18:19] * Zakim sees tantek, rubys on the speaker queue
  820. # [18:19] <paulc> q+
  821. # [18:19] * Zakim sees tantek, rubys, paulc on the speaker queue
  822. # [18:19] <timeless> ... have those things w/ same force of IP commitments
  823. # [18:19] <darobin> q+
  824. # [18:19] * Zakim sees tantek, rubys, paulc, darobin on the speaker queue
  825. # [18:19] <timeless> ... just more clock driven
  826. # [18:19] * Joins: ArtB (~abarsto@public.cloak)
  827. # [18:19] <timeless> ... each piece working independently
  828. # [18:19] <timeless> ... some work by whatwg, some by groups in w3c
  829. # [18:20] <SteveF> q+
  830. # [18:20] * Zakim sees tantek, rubys, paulc, darobin, SteveF on the speaker queue
  831. # [18:20] <timeless> ... but that would imply that they'd come back together as a document
  832. # [18:20] <timeless> q?
  833. # [18:20] * Zakim sees tantek, rubys, paulc, darobin, SteveF on the speaker queue
  834. # [18:20] <timeless> ack tantek
  835. # [18:20] <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to formally propose "maintenance" release should only be bug fixes, and thus a 5.0.1. Anything anyone wants to keep in 5.1 which is new from 5.0 should be split
  836. # [18:20] * Joins: jerome (~jerome@public.cloak)
  837. # [18:20] <Zakim> ... out as modules.
  838. # [18:20] * Zakim sees rubys, paulc, darobin, SteveF on the speaker queue
  839. # [18:20] <timeless> tantek: Tantek Celik, Mozilla
  840. # [18:20] <timeless> ... darobin covered what i wanted to say
  841. # [18:20] <timeless> ... very reasonable
  842. # [18:20] <timeless> ... maybe i should go back to AB meeting
  843. # [18:20] <timeless> ... which is simultaneously discussing Errata Process
  844. # [18:20] <timeless> ... apparent size
  845. # [18:21] <timeless> darobin: Differences or Landscape?
  846. # [18:21] <timeless> tantek: yes, Landscape
  847. # [18:21] <timeless> [ Projects Landscape ]
  848. # [18:21] <timeless> tantek: the more that can be shrunk by whatever means
  849. # [18:21] <timeless> ... normative differences/purely informative differences
  850. # [18:21] <timeless> ... the better
  851. # [18:21] <timeless> ... look forward to features being added to HTML Spec via Extension
  852. # [18:21] <timeless> ... preferably CC-by
  853. # [18:21] <timeless> darobin: we can
  854. # [18:21] <timeless> tantek: i'm expressing my preference
  855. # [18:21] <timeless> q?
  856. # [18:21] * Zakim sees rubys, paulc, darobin, SteveF on the speaker queue
  857. # [18:22] <tantek> given that CC-by is the most liberal option we have
  858. # [18:22] <timeless> ack rubys
  859. # [18:22] * Zakim sees paulc, darobin, SteveF on the speaker queue
  860. # [18:22] <timeless> rubys: we got a request to not-copy
  861. # [18:22] <timeless> ... we have content under CC-0
  862. # [18:22] <timeless> ... people are working out if that makes sense or not
  863. # [18:22] <timeless> ... like people here
  864. # [18:22] <timeless> ... if someone says "we should copy" "we should not copy"
  865. # [18:22] <tantek> obviously I'd rather have CC0 but we're not there yet, and I'm actively working on trying to make that a possibility at the AB level
  866. # [18:22] <timeless> MarkVickers: i thought i was making concrete proposal
  867. # [18:22] <timeless> ... if things are in small enough units
  868. # [18:23] <timeless> ... we'd hopefully get to the point where people are two different groups working on checkouts from the same github
  869. # [18:23] <timeless> ... and at some point it would be copied, and brought back in
  870. # [18:23] <SteveF> +1 to tantek on CCO
  871. # [18:23] <timeless> ... you'd have one build at the end
  872. # [18:23] <timeless> rubys: thanks, you said work together and copy
  873. # [18:23] <tantek> Thank you SteveF - that's useful input for the AB.
  874. # [18:23] <timeless> ... another was work together and point
  875. # [18:23] * timeless SteveF CCO or CC0 ??
  876. # [18:23] <timeless> MarkVickers: work together
  877. # [18:23] <tantek> s/CCO/CC0/g
  878. # [18:24] <timeless> ... at some point we want to be able to say "this is work recommended by W3C as HTML"
  879. # [18:24] <timeless> ... implementer or using it
  880. # [18:24] <timeless> ... whether you point or not
  881. # [18:24] <SteveF> whatever tantek was referring to :-)
  882. # [18:24] <timeless> ... the user needs the output
  883. # [18:24] <timeless> MarkVickers: all documents should be together at one place
  884. # [18:24] <timeless> ... i don't want confusion
  885. # [18:24] <paulc> Paul wants to point to http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/
  886. # [18:24] <timeless> rubys: thanks
  887. # [18:24] <timeless> q?
  888. # [18:24] * Zakim sees paulc, darobin, SteveF on the speaker queue
  889. # [18:24] <timeless> ack paulc
  890. # [18:24] * Zakim sees darobin, SteveF on the speaker queue
  891. # [18:25] <timeless> [ Projects TR/html5 ]
  892. # [18:25] <timeless> paulc: plh and i discussed this before the meeting
  893. # [18:25] <timeless> ... we have dated version, latest version
  894. # [18:25] <timeless> ... latest version of html
  895. # [18:25] <timeless> ... different from normal recs
  896. # [18:25] <timeless> ... 1) we aren't the only WG working on Extensions to HTML5
  897. # [18:25] <timeless> ... we have EME, MSE, longdesc, ...
  898. # [18:25] <timeless> ... but WebPerf WG is doing extensions
  899. # [18:26] <timeless> ... much of WebApps at API level are Extensions
  900. # [18:26] <timeless> ... one thing we could do
  901. # [18:26] <timeless> ... click on "latest version of html"
  902. # [18:26] <timeless> ... instead of a single document
  903. # [18:26] <timeless> ... take you to a page listing various modules
  904. # [18:26] <plh> -q?
  905. # [18:26] * Zakim sees darobin, SteveF on the speaker queue
  906. # [18:26] <timeless> ... both from HTML WG and other placs
  907. # [18:26] <timeless> s/placs/places/
  908. # [18:26] <Cyril> +1, that's what CSS does
  909. # [18:26] <timeless> ... I have a terrible time speaking of what HTML5 is
  910. # [18:26] <timeless> ... people think it's the Web Platform
  911. # [18:26] <timeless> darobin: lost battle
  912. # [18:26] <timeless> ... we should admit defeat
  913. # [18:27] <timeless> paulc: thank you
  914. # [18:27] <timeless> ... maybe HTML could take you to a list of modules, extension specs, whatever you'd want to work to
  915. # [18:27] <glazou> glazou: as I said yesterday, you won’t change journalists on that
  916. # [18:27] <timeless> ... could even point to things that whatwg were working on that we agreed that we weren't working on
  917. # [18:27] <Cyril> q+
  918. # [18:27] * Zakim sees darobin, SteveF, Cyril on the speaker queue
  919. # [18:27] <timeless> ... maybe the problem is that we don't have a definitive list
  920. # [18:27] <timeless> ... to define what we're working on/what they're working on
  921. # [18:27] <timeless> ... it's an idea that plh and I just talked about
  922. # [18:28] <timeless> ... but maybe plh should speak to this
  923. # [18:28] <timeless> ... maybe it was an insurance policy
  924. # [18:28] <timeless> plh: 2 years ago, one of the problems i was facing
  925. # [18:28] <timeless> ... was "what does CSS3 mean?"
  926. # [18:28] <timeless> ... my boss, jeff came in and said
  927. # [18:28] <timeless> ... "i've been talking about CSS3 for a long time, but where is our CSS3 spec?"
  928. # [18:28] * glazou laughs
  929. # [18:28] <timeless> ... we don't have a CSS3 spec
  930. # [18:28] <tantek> I note that glazou doesn't appear to be in the room. ;)
  931. # [18:28] <timeless> ... and CSS WG knows what they're talking about
  932. # [18:29] <timeless> ... problem is that the web doesn't understand
  933. # [18:29] * glazou tantek no in digipub, following htmlwg on irc only
  934. # [18:29] <timeless> ... If i said "CSS3 doesn't exist", people would look at me and say "what do you mean?"
  935. # [18:29] * glazou notes tantek should have left me his AB seat since he’s not there either ;-)
  936. # [18:29] <timeless> ... HTML, I thought, we'll have the same problem down the road
  937. # [18:29] * tantek glazou no problem, I'll try to represent not too inaccurately :)
  938. # [18:29] <timeless> ... i thought if we had a thing
  939. # [18:29] <timeless> ... CSS had a CSS snapshot 2007, 2010
  940. # [18:29] <timeless> ... it didn't really work
  941. # [18:29] <timeless> ... not really interested in publishing a new snapshot
  942. # [18:30] <timeless> ... I did Extensible Web Summit in September
  943. # [18:30] <timeless> ... one of CSS Editors said
  944. # [18:30] * glazou snapshots are too expensive to produce and maintain
  945. # [18:30] <timeless> ... I'd take the HTML spec and modularize
  946. # [18:30] <timeless> ... and every time we updated a module
  947. # [18:30] <timeless> ... i'd
  948. # [18:30] <timeless> ... say "this is the module they should look at"
  949. # [18:30] <timeless> ... that's why i said to darobin
  950. # [18:30] <timeless> ... i don't know what it would look like
  951. # [18:30] * Quits: Ruinan (~Ruinan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  952. # [18:30] <timeless> ... but let's have a link
  953. # [18:31] <timeless> ... and figure out what to put on that page later on
  954. # [18:31] * Joins: min (~min@public.cloak)
  955. # [18:31] <timeless> ... i don't think it will point you to a W3C REC
  956. # [18:31] <timeless> ... but to a ToC
  957. # [18:31] <paulc> Response to plh: http://www.w3.org/TR/
  958. # [18:31] <timeless> ... that tells you "this is what we know about HTML"
  959. # [18:31] <timeless> q?
  960. # [18:31] * Zakim sees darobin, SteveF, Cyril on the speaker queue
  961. # [18:31] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  962. # [18:31] <timeless> paulc: click on link to /TR/
  963. # [18:31] <timeless> [ Projects /TR/ ]
  964. # [18:31] * Quits: tomoyuki (~tomoyuki@public.cloak) (tomoyuki)
  965. # [18:31] <timeless> paulc: this page,
  966. # [18:31] <timeless> ... was done at the last time the /TR/ page was reoganized
  967. # [18:31] * Joins: tomoyuki (~tomoyuki@public.cloak)
  968. # [18:31] <timeless> ... and click on "HTML"
  969. # [18:31] <timeless> ... you get this page
  970. # [18:32] <timeless> rubys: some relevant, some not as much
  971. # [18:32] <timeless> paulc: curious how this is similar/different to what you're proposing
  972. # [18:32] <timeless> ... notice it's just a #frag off /TR/
  973. # [18:32] <timeless> [ /TR/#tr_HTML ]
  974. # [18:32] <timeless> plh: different
  975. # [18:32] <timeless> ... i'm proposing a ToC
  976. # [18:32] <timeless> ... some [here] are relevant, some are not
  977. # [18:32] <rubys> q+
  978. # [18:32] * Zakim sees darobin, SteveF, Cyril, rubys on the speaker queue
  979. # [18:32] <timeless> ... if the group has one answer/how to have the best answer possible
  980. # [18:32] <tantek> paulc: shows http://www.w3.org/TR/#tr_HTML
  981. # [18:32] <timeless> ... this group should be the best answer
  982. # [18:33] <timeless> ... and if someone asks what should it be
  983. # [18:33] <timeless> paulc: if you click on CSS
  984. # [18:33] <rubys> q?
  985. # [18:33] * Zakim sees darobin, SteveF, Cyril, rubys on the speaker queue
  986. # [18:33] <timeless> ... that wasn't the answer to jeff's Q
  987. # [18:33] <timeless> paulc: this was a reengineering of /TR/
  988. # [18:33] <timeless> ... i tried to keep it up to date, it's a pain
  989. # [18:33] <timeless> ack darobin
  990. # [18:33] * Zakim sees SteveF, Cyril, rubys on the speaker queue
  991. # [18:33] <timeless> darobin: back to MarkVickers 's point
  992. # [18:33] <timeless> ... you mentioned collaboration
  993. # [18:33] <timeless> ... and i'm in favor
  994. # [18:33] <timeless> ... but collaboration takes two sides
  995. # [18:34] <timeless> ... we can't say "hey, let's collaborate"
  996. # [18:34] <tantek> would it be useful to comment on evolution of notions of CSS3 -> CSS Module Level 3 -> CSS Module Level 1 ?
  997. # [18:34] <timeless> ... my thinking is
  998. # [18:34] <timeless> ... let's do this right
  999. # [18:34] <timeless> ... if collaboration works, great
  1000. # [18:34] <timeless> ... if not, at least, we're doing things the way it should be done
  1001. # [18:34] <timeless> ... and maybe people will say "hey, they're doing the right thing"
  1002. # [18:34] <timeless> ... "and we should talk"
  1003. # [18:34] <timeless> ... hopefully we can remove as much friction as possible
  1004. # [18:34] <timeless> ... but it isn't something we can decree by fiat
  1005. # [18:35] <timeless> ... small modules, clock-based, i like both
  1006. # [18:35] <timeless> ... reluctant to split spec into lots of small modules
  1007. # [18:35] <timeless> ... no matter how good it would be in long term
  1008. # [18:35] <timeless> ... i'd rather do this organically
  1009. # [18:35] <timeless> ... anytime someone wants to work on the spec
  1010. # [18:35] <timeless> ... "sure, let me extract it, fork it, submit patches"
  1011. # [18:35] <timeless> ... some sections, may never touch
  1012. # [18:35] <timeless> ... <p>, <i>, <b>, <div>
  1013. # [18:35] <timeless> [ grimmaces ]
  1014. # [18:35] <timeless> [ laughter ]
  1015. # [18:36] <timeless> darobin: some will never be touched any-time soon
  1016. # [18:36] <timeless> ... clock based
  1017. # [18:36] <timeless> ... ties into One Web
  1018. # [18:36] * Travis suggests re-mapping <p> to mean "party" element.
  1019. # [18:36] <timeless> ... another fundamental is One-Test-Suite
  1020. # [18:36] <timeless> s/grimmaces/grimaces/
  1021. # [18:36] <timeless> ... if you have two specs, how do you ...
  1022. # [18:36] <timeless> ... but Test-Suite is closer to metal
  1023. # [18:36] <timeless> ... informs you how implementers are making progres
  1024. # [18:36] <timeless> s/res/ress/
  1025. # [18:37] <timeless> ... we've been pretty good at managing our test suite
  1026. # [18:37] <timeless> ... Test group pretty impressive given its utter lack of resources
  1027. # [18:37] <timeless> ... every year, run test suite, whatever passes sufficiently
  1028. # [18:37] <tantek> I see glazou running through the room!
  1029. # [18:37] <timeless> ... say ~90% of very complete test suite
  1030. # [18:37] <timeless> ... anything passes test, goes to REC
  1031. # [18:37] * Quits: min (~min@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  1032. # [18:37] <timeless> ... do every year
  1033. # [18:37] <MarkVickers> +1
  1034. # [18:37] <timeless> ... instead of multi-year plans
  1035. # [18:37] <rubys> q+ glazou
  1036. # [18:37] * Zakim sees SteveF, Cyril, rubys, glazou on the speaker queue
  1037. # [18:37] <timeless> ... and specs that takes years to go to rec
  1038. # [18:37] * Joins: min (~min@public.cloak)
  1039. # [18:37] <timeless> ack SteveF
  1040. # [18:37] * Zakim sees Cyril, rubys, glazou on the speaker queue
  1041. # [18:38] <timeless> SteveF: ok
  1042. # [18:38] <timeless> ... i like modularization
  1043. # [18:38] <timeless> ... i hate multiple amounts of boilerplate
  1044. # [18:38] <timeless> ... boilerplate **** that i don't want to read
  1045. # [18:38] <timeless> ... harder to understand
  1046. # [18:38] <timeless> ... using new features of HTML5/5.0
  1047. # [18:38] <timeless> ... <details>
  1048. # [18:38] * Joins: kurosawa_ (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  1049. # [18:38] <timeless> ... to make spec more usable
  1050. # [18:38] <timeless> ... not hugely popular
  1051. # [18:38] <timeless> ... an important audience of spec
  1052. # [18:38] <timeless> ... is developer audience
  1053. # [18:39] <timeless> ... people who use it
  1054. # [18:39] <timeless> ... primary audience appears to be browser vendors
  1055. # [18:39] <paulc> q?
  1056. # [18:39] * Zakim sees Cyril, rubys, glazou on the speaker queue
  1057. # [18:39] <timeless> ... but everyone keeps telling us that they don't look at W3C spec
  1058. # [18:39] <timeless> ... if they don't
  1059. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> q?
  1060. # [18:39] * Zakim sees Cyril, rubys, glazou on the speaker queue
  1061. # [18:39] <timeless> ... (and it's not exactly true, it depends on which bits)
  1062. # [18:39] <timeless> ... if that's a separate audience, we should focus on making the spec good for the other audience
  1063. # [18:39] <timeless> ... other point
  1064. # [18:39] * Joins: IsabelleH (~IsabelleH@public.cloak)
  1065. # [18:39] <timeless> ... idea of collaboration
  1066. # [18:39] <timeless> ... i don't see any collaboration
  1067. # [18:40] <timeless> ... i'd like to have it in the future
  1068. # [18:40] <timeless> ... but as long as we continue to work on HTML, i see the possibility is very small
  1069. # [18:40] <timeless> ... i'd like to work on it
  1070. # [18:40] <timeless> ... i see lots of people
  1071. # [18:40] <timeless> ... but we're not very engaging
  1072. # [18:40] <timeless> ... there needs to be some engaging
  1073. # [18:40] <timeless> ... i've tried many times
  1074. # [18:40] <timeless> ... but we need to continue
  1075. # [18:40] <timeless> ... we need to work something out
  1076. # [18:40] <timeless> ... we can't pretend things are working, because they're not
  1077. # [18:40] <timeless> ack Cyril
  1078. # [18:40] * Zakim sees rubys, glazou on the speaker queue
  1079. # [18:41] <timeless> Cyril: i like the idea of /TR/html/ that points to modules/extensions
  1080. # [18:41] <timeless> ... TT WG is considering the same for TTML
  1081. # [18:41] <timeless> ... should be clear what "published versions" means
  1082. # [18:41] <timeless> ... because it isn't clear to public what it means
  1083. # [18:41] <timeless> ... might be helpful to clarify "latest published, latest version"
  1084. # [18:41] <timeless> q?
  1085. # [18:41] * Zakim sees rubys, glazou on the speaker queue
  1086. # [18:41] <timeless> ack rubys
  1087. # [18:41] * Zakim sees glazou on the speaker queue
  1088. # [18:41] * Quits: ArtB (~abarsto@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  1089. # [18:41] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
  1090. # [18:42] * Joins: tantek__ (~tantek__@public.cloak)
  1091. # [18:42] <timeless> rubys: 1) we talked about a new landing for /TR/html/
  1092. # [18:42] <timeless> ... i didn't hear talk about versioning of that
  1093. # [18:42] <timeless> ... would we version it?
  1094. # [18:42] * Quits: ShaneM (~ShaneM@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1095. # [18:42] <timeless> ... last year, this year
  1096. # [18:42] <timeless> ... process for updating it?
  1097. # [18:42] <timeless> ... does WG come to consensus
  1098. # [18:42] <timeless> ... point to stuff outside WG
  1099. # [18:42] <timeless> ... 2) darobin, SteveF
  1100. # [18:42] <timeless> ... collaboration
  1101. # [18:42] <timeless> ... we need to figure out what we want to do
  1102. # [18:43] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
  1103. # [18:43] * darobin nice t-shirt hober :)
  1104. # [18:43] <timeless> ... SteveF pointed out difficulties w/ working w/ whatwg
  1105. # [18:43] * Quits: tomoyuki (~tomoyuki@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1106. # [18:43] <timeless> ... I work in IETF
  1107. # [18:43] * Quits: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1108. # [18:43] <timeless> ... i'm trying w/ URL
  1109. # [18:43] * kurosawa_ is now known as kurosawa
  1110. # [18:43] <timeless> ... i'm going where work is
  1111. # [18:43] <timeless> ... in theory it's open
  1112. # [18:43] <timeless> ... if i can disprove that, it's useful knowledge
  1113. # [18:43] <timeless> ... if it's open, we'll learn from that
  1114. # [18:44] * pdr__ is now known as pdr
  1115. # [18:44] <timeless> glazou: Daniel Glazman, Cochair CSS WG
  1116. # [18:44] <tantek> publishing snapshots and maintaining that was too hard
  1117. # [18:44] <timeless> ... we tried publishing CSS snapshot page
  1118. # [18:44] <timeless> ... via REC track
  1119. # [18:44] <timeless> ... was too hard
  1120. # [18:44] <tantek> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/current-work is now maintained semi-manually
  1121. # [18:44] <timeless> ... looking at dev.w3.org wgs
  1122. # [18:44] <timeless> ... to help doing that
  1123. # [18:44] <timeless> ... there are new publishing tools that whatwg is preparing
  1124. # [18:44] <timeless> ... plh mentioned single click to publish
  1125. # [18:45] <timeless> ... to publish WD
  1126. # [18:45] <timeless> ... in CSSWG we decided to base on WG consensus
  1127. # [18:45] * Joins: renmin (~renmin@public.cloak)
  1128. # [18:45] <timeless> ... some Editors in the Group wanted to be able to publish at their own discretion
  1129. # [18:45] <timeless> ... there's some reluctance in the WG
  1130. # [18:45] <timeless> ... we prefer consensus
  1131. # [18:45] <timeless> ... discussion, review if needed, then reply
  1132. # [18:45] <timeless> ... 2) testsuites mentioned by darobin
  1133. # [18:45] <timeless> ... we have 60 docs on the radar in CSS WG
  1134. # [18:45] <timeless> ... that's a lot
  1135. # [18:45] <timeless> ... it's really good, not everyone is interested in every part
  1136. # [18:46] <timeless> ... each implementer is different
  1137. # [18:46] <timeless> ... some aren't browser vendors
  1138. # [18:46] <timeless> ... there's a batch-processor vendor
  1139. # [18:46] <timeless> ... they don't care about animations
  1140. # [18:46] <timeless> ... that modularization implies specifilization
  1141. # [18:46] * timeless ???
  1142. # [18:46] <timeless> ... test suites are per spec
  1143. # [18:46] <timeless> ... we don't have a single suite
  1144. # [18:46] <timeless> ... darobin i don't think what you want is doable because of collisions
  1145. # [18:47] <timeless> ... one single light spec about replaced-elements in html
  1146. # [18:47] <timeless> ... don't care about collisions
  1147. # [18:47] <timeless> ... because otherwise, you'll have ETA of 2032
  1148. # [18:47] <timeless> ... it is not feasibile
  1149. # [18:47] <timeless> ... 3) fast track process in CSSWG
  1150. # [18:47] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (mjs)
  1151. # [18:47] <tantek> replaced elements and not care about collisions? what about <input type=image> ?
  1152. # [18:47] <timeless> ... when we have a module that does not progress fast enough
  1153. # [18:47] <timeless> ... but one or two features in the module are evolving faster than the rest
  1154. # [18:47] <timeless> ... w/ consensus of the group, that can be extracted from the document
  1155. # [18:47] <timeless> ... fast track that
  1156. # [18:47] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
  1157. # [18:48] <timeless> ... progress faster, and get it to the public
  1158. # [18:48] <timeless> ... you can say it creates another document, wrong, bad
  1159. # [18:48] <timeless> ... but it works really well
  1160. # [18:48] <timeless> ... even w/ large number of documents
  1161. # [18:48] <timeless> ... we have 30-40 active contributors
  1162. # [18:48] <timeless> ... this could help the HTML WG
  1163. # [18:48] <timeless> paulc: time check
  1164. # [18:48] <timeless> ... 30 mins for coffee break
  1165. # [18:48] <timeless> ... i'll seek PF members from SVG WG
  1166. # [18:49] <timeless> ... we'll continue in second slot this afternoon
  1167. # [18:49] <timeless> ... maybe darobin we could try to make a scratchpad list of things we talked about doing
  1168. # [18:49] <timeless> ... sketch, figure out if we could assign to editorial team/chairs
  1169. # [18:49] <timeless> ... rubys "let's get practical"
  1170. # [18:49] <timeless> ... Josh_Soref 's notes are pretty good here
  1171. # [18:49] <timeless> ... things to do
  1172. # [18:49] <tantek> Aside: I'm happy to help provide history, guidance, answer questions about CSS modularization experience, as I'm sure glazou is as well. If you're curious how CSSWG has done modularization, please find either of us and ask us, happy to share publicly. Thank you.
  1173. # [18:49] <timeless> ... let's build a plan here
  1174. # [18:49] <timeless> ... even if items aren't double-clickable
  1175. # [18:50] * glazou is in the digipub meeting, ping me if you wish
  1176. # [18:50] <timeless> ... thanks Josh_Soref as usual
  1177. # [18:50] <timeless> [ Applause ]
  1178. # [18:50] <timeless> [ Break until 11:15 am ]
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  1205. # [18:58] <timeless> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
  1206. # [18:58] <RRSAgent> ok, timeless; I will not start a new log at midnight
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  1216. # [19:02] <rubys> zalim, who is on the phone?
  1217. # [19:02] <rubys> zakim, who is on the phone?
  1218. # [19:02] <Zakim> On the phone I see Santabarbara
  1219. # [19:02] <Zakim> Santabarbara has rubys, paulc, timeless, MikeSmith, darobin
  1220. # [19:02] * Quits: IsabelleH (~IsabelleH@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1221. # [19:03] <timeless> Zakim, timeless has left Santabarbara
  1222. # [19:03] <Zakim> -timeless; got it
  1223. # [19:03] * timeless will return shortly
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  1248. # [19:11] * Rich__ test
  1249. # [19:12] * Quits: ArtB (~abarsto@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1250. # [19:12] <timeless> topic: Accessibility w/ PF WG
  1251. # [19:12] * Quits: forty41 (~forty4@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1252. # [19:12] * Joins: renmin_ (~renmin@public.cloak)
  1253. # [19:12] <timeless> Zakim, timeless has entered Santabarbara
  1254. # [19:12] <Zakim> +timeless; got it
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  1261. # [19:15] * MichaelC rrsagent, make minutes
  1262. # [19:15] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html MichaelC
  1263. # [19:15] <timeless> paulc: wiki has Part 1
  1264. # [19:15] <timeless> ... Joint w/ PF + SVG
  1265. # [19:15] * timeless ??
  1266. # [19:16] <timeless> ... request for 60 mins
  1267. # [19:16] * Joins: Cyril (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  1268. # [19:16] <timeless> ... taxonomy for 30-6 mins pref not on thu afternoon
  1269. # [19:16] <timeless> ... Part 2
  1270. # [19:16] <timeless> ... name computation and the lik
  1271. # [19:16] <timeless> s/lik/like/
  1272. # [19:16] <timeless> janina: we don't have a need for that (drop)
  1273. # [19:16] <timeless> paulc: accesskey improvements (shane)
  1274. # [19:16] * Quits: stone (~stone@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1275. # [19:16] <timeless> ... captcha wd update (janina)
  1276. # [19:16] <timeless> janina: no
  1277. # [19:17] <timeless> ... drop mine
  1278. # [19:17] <timeless> ... not sure about shane
  1279. # [19:17] <timeless> paulc: doesn't surprise me
  1280. # [19:17] * Quits: renmin (~renmin@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1281. # [19:17] * Joins: shoko (~shoko@public.cloak)
  1282. # [19:17] <timeless> ... so i believe Fri Afternoon for A11y part 2 after Coffee gets dropped
  1283. # [19:17] <timeless> janina: i believe so
  1284. # [19:17] * Joins: mihnea_____ (~sid16310@public.cloak)
  1285. # [19:17] * Quits: wooglae (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1286. # [19:17] <timeless> paulc: third area
  1287. # [19:17] <timeless> ... joint PF w/ DpugID and CSS WG
  1288. # [19:17] * Joins: hjlee (~hjlee@public.cloak)
  1289. # [19:18] <timeless> ... we've scheduled that for 4pm this afternoon
  1290. # [19:18] <timeless> janina: we need that
  1291. # [19:18] <timeless> paulc: we've added an update to that item an update on where the <canvas> TF is
  1292. # [19:18] * Joins: Hitoshi (~Hitoshi@public.cloak)
  1293. # [19:18] <timeless> ... we were expecting that to be reasonably short
  1294. # [19:18] <timeless> ... we wanted the PF / A11y experts to be in the room
  1295. # [19:18] <timeless> ... that means we're on topic
  1296. # [19:18] <timeless> ... so, now to A11y Part 1
  1297. # [19:18] * Joins: forty4 (~forty4@public.cloak)
  1298. # [19:18] <timeless> ... 11:15am-1pm
  1299. # [19:18] * Joins: jamesn (~jnurthen@public.cloak)
  1300. # [19:18] <timeless> ... then we break to lunch until two
  1301. # [19:19] <timeless> s|topic: Accessibility w/ PF WG|topic: Scheduling|
  1302. # [19:19] <timeless> janina: thank you paulc, and html wg
  1303. # [19:19] <timeless> ... for PF
  1304. # [19:19] <timeless> ... our meeting w/ Dig, we'll meet in their space
  1305. # [19:19] <timeless> ... i don't know which cities in this hall
  1306. # [19:19] <timeless> ... we meet @2pm in their space
  1307. # [19:19] <timeless> ... SVG
  1308. # [19:20] <timeless> topic: SVG and Graphics taxonomy
  1309. # [19:20] * Joins: ohmata (~ohmata@public.cloak)
  1310. # [19:20] <timeless> Rich__: joint TF between SVG and PF
  1311. # [19:20] <timeless> ... i'll be chairing w/ Fred Esch
  1312. # [19:20] <timeless> ... we're creating API interop specs
  1313. # [19:20] <timeless> ... for HTML and SVG
  1314. # [19:20] <timeless> ... and name computation
  1315. # [19:20] <timeless> ... going
  1316. # [19:20] <timeless> ... moving to map semantics across both languages to A11y service layers
  1317. # [19:20] <timeless> ... and create taxonomy better suited for graphics
  1318. # [19:21] <timeless> ... A11y/ARIA has <widget>s
  1319. # [19:21] <timeless> ... <region>s, <landmark>s
  1320. # [19:21] * Joins: nikos (~uid28403@public.cloak)
  1321. # [19:21] <timeless> ... but we don't have a good way to describe graphics
  1322. # [19:21] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (mjs)
  1323. # [19:21] <timeless> ... it hasn't been given attention in years
  1324. # [19:21] <timeless> ... do it right this time
  1325. # [19:21] <timeless> ... charts, STEM graphics
  1326. # [19:21] <timeless> ... also, Connector spec
  1327. # [19:21] <timeless> ... between different objects, a Flow diagram
  1328. # [19:21] <timeless> ... doing this for SVG
  1329. # [19:21] <timeless> ... also applicable to HTML5 <canvas>
  1330. # [19:22] <timeless> ... also developers create drawings w/ CSS+js on HTML
  1331. # [19:22] <timeless> ... taxonomy applicable to that area as well
  1332. # [19:22] <timeless> ... if UCs that we have for HTML that we haven't addressed, we'd like to hear about them
  1333. # [19:22] <timeless> ... also, Connector spec in SVG
  1334. # [19:22] <timeless> ... Connector between two objects
  1335. # [19:22] <timeless> ... explicitly declared for SVG
  1336. # [19:22] <timeless> ... not sure how to do for HTML
  1337. # [19:22] * Joins: ed_tpac (~ed@public.cloak)
  1338. # [19:22] <timeless> ... also affects Navigation
  1339. # [19:23] <timeless> ... keyboard navigation in HTML tabindex=
  1340. # [19:23] * Joins: hiroto (~hiroto@public.cloak)
  1341. # [19:23] <timeless> ... <tab>
  1342. # [19:23] * Joins: joanie (~joanmarie@public.cloak)
  1343. # [19:23] <timeless> ... but sometimes you need to give users options of where to go
  1344. # [19:23] * Joins: sunghan (~sunghan@public.cloak)
  1345. # [19:23] <timeless> ... we'll explore
  1346. # [19:23] <timeless> ... it's largely for SVG
  1347. # [19:23] <timeless> ... but how to apply to html
  1348. # [19:23] * Quits: sunghan (~sunghan@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  1349. # [19:23] <timeless> fred: ARIA flowto=
  1350. # [19:23] <timeless> Rich__: <connector> in html?
  1351. # [19:23] * Joins: taku (~taku@public.cloak)
  1352. # [19:23] * Joins: sunghan (~sunghan@public.cloak)
  1353. # [19:23] <timeless> ... dual purpose
  1354. # [19:23] <timeless> ... author gets things for free?
  1355. # [19:23] <timeless> ... is that something to look to in HTML?
  1356. # [19:24] <timeless> ... in future versions
  1357. # [19:24] <timeless> ... or limit to SVG?
  1358. # [19:24] <timeless> ... bring up spec/drop link?
  1359. # [19:24] <timeless> katie: Katie Harrito-Shea
  1360. # [19:24] * Joins: forty41 (~forty4@public.cloak)
  1361. # [19:24] <timeless> ... could that be used in context for 3D/navigation?
  1362. # [19:24] <timeless> [ groans ]
  1363. # [19:24] <timeless> Rich__: 3D is around WebGL
  1364. # [19:24] <timeless> ... it isn't declarative
  1365. # [19:25] <timeless> ... i know Google is using WebGL for maps.google.com
  1366. # [19:25] <MichaelC> s/Harrito/Haritos/
  1367. # [19:25] <timeless> ... another exploration area
  1368. # [19:25] <timeless> paulc: lots of words, you need to give us pointers
  1369. # [19:25] <timeless> ... have you started discussing public-html@
  1370. # [19:25] <timeless> Rich__: no, we just started discussing today w/ CSS
  1371. # [19:25] <timeless> paulc: you had a meeting before this meeting
  1372. # [19:25] * Quits: forty4 (~forty4@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1373. # [19:25] <timeless> Rich__: Q1. specific semantics to include in taxonomy that people use in HTML today?
  1374. # [19:26] <SteveF> q+
  1375. # [19:26] * Zakim sees glazou, SteveF on the speaker queue
  1376. # [19:26] <timeless> ... Q2. create <connector> in HTML?
  1377. # [19:26] <timeless> ... or just focus on SVG?
  1378. # [19:26] <timeless> ... taking task for HTML
  1379. # [19:26] <timeless> ... specs are becoming closer and closer aligned
  1380. # [19:26] <Santabarbara> q- glazou
  1381. # [19:26] * Zakim sees SteveF on the speaker queue
  1382. # [19:26] * Joins: smailus (~smailus@public.cloak)
  1383. # [19:26] <Travis> q+
  1384. # [19:26] * Zakim sees SteveF, Travis on the speaker queue
  1385. # [19:26] <timeless> paulc: to Q1
  1386. # [19:27] <timeless> ... for what?
  1387. # [19:27] <timeless> shepazu: Doug Sheppers, W3C, a Staff Contact for SVG
  1388. # [19:27] <timeless> ... i'm a were-- err, no i'm a simple villager
  1389. # [19:27] <timeless> ... look at a Bar chart
  1390. # [19:27] * Quits: jerome (~jerome@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1391. # [19:27] * Joins: IsabelleH (~IsabelleH@public.cloak)
  1392. # [19:27] <timeless> ... axes, legend, bars (indicate values)
  1393. # [19:27] <timeless> ... other data visualizations have similar things
  1394. # [19:28] <timeless> ... breaking those things to constituent parts
  1395. # [19:28] <timeless> Rich__: ARIA has Grid, Checkbox, Tree
  1396. # [19:28] <timeless> shepazu: checkbox has element that is checkbox, mark for checkbox, label
  1397. # [19:28] * Joins: jongund (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  1398. # [19:28] <timeless> ... you can describe those in ARIA
  1399. # [19:28] <timeless> ... if you make your own checkbox rather than <input type=checkbox>
  1400. # [19:29] <timeless> ... similarly, if you make a barchart, you'd be able to identify tick-marks, ranges, in ARIA
  1401. # [19:29] <timeless> ... a taxonomy of data visualizations
  1402. # [19:29] <timeless> ... SVG can draw anything, but we're talking about a taxonomy
  1403. # [19:29] * Joins: mhakkinen_ (~mhakkinen@public.cloak)
  1404. # [19:29] <timeless> q?
  1405. # [19:29] * Zakim sees SteveF, Travis on the speaker queue
  1406. # [19:29] <timeless> ack SteveF
  1407. # [19:29] * Zakim sees Travis on the speaker queue
  1408. # [19:29] * Joins: shepazu_ (~shepazu@public.cloak)
  1409. # [19:29] <timeless> SteveF: comment to SVG/PF/...
  1410. # [19:29] <timeless> ... when we're discussing this stuff
  1411. # [19:29] <timeless> ... if this is brought to html wg
  1412. # [19:29] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
  1413. # [19:29] <timeless> ... i'd ask this be discussed on public-html@w3.org
  1414. # [19:30] <timeless> ... rather than the TF list
  1415. # [19:30] <timeless> ... the TF is a subset
  1416. # [19:30] <timeless> ... but we want to draw as many experts as possibl
  1417. # [19:30] <timeless> s/ibl/ible/
  1418. # [19:30] <shepazu_> Connectors are here... http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/connector/SVGConnector.html and http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/CONNECTORS/index.xhtml
  1419. # [19:30] <timeless> ... but we want to draw people to it
  1420. # [19:30] <timeless> janina: HTML A11y TF is not a TF at play
  1421. # [19:30] * Quits: Rich__ (~Rich@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1422. # [19:30] <timeless> ... this is a new TF between PF+SVG
  1423. # [19:30] <timeless> ... if we take all discussion to HTML list
  1424. # [19:31] <timeless> ... if that's what you're discussing
  1425. # [19:31] <timeless> SteveF: just use public-html@ not a11y list when you bring things to HTML
  1426. # [19:31] <timeless> q?
  1427. # [19:31] * Zakim sees Travis on the speaker queue
  1428. # [19:31] <timeless> ack Travis
  1429. # [19:31] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1430. # [19:31] <timeless> Travis: we had a great meeting now that HTML5 is a REC
  1431. # [19:31] <timeless> ... 1. taking a more modular approach
  1432. # [19:31] <timeless> ... we welcome these contributions to the HTML family of language
  1433. # [19:32] <timeless> ... but we probably wouldn't be in the core document
  1434. # [19:32] <timeless> ... HTML's SVG is exclusively in the parser
  1435. # [19:32] <shepazu_> q+
  1436. # [19:32] * Zakim sees shepazu_ on the speaker queue
  1437. # [19:32] <timeless> ... the rest of it probably wouldn't have a relation to the document
  1438. # [19:32] <timeless> ack shepazu_
  1439. # [19:32] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1440. # [19:32] <zcorpan_> q+
  1441. # [19:32] * Zakim sees zcorpan_ on the speaker queue
  1442. # [19:32] <timeless> s/shepazu_/shepazu/G
  1443. # [19:32] <timeless> shepazu_: there's another aspect of SVG/A11y
  1444. # [19:32] <timeless> ... larger, how we integrate <SVG> in <HTML>
  1445. # [19:33] * Joins: sunghan_ (~sunghan@public.cloak)
  1446. # [19:33] * Joins: kinjim (~kinjim@public.cloak)
  1447. # [19:33] <timeless> ... you can reference external an external .svg file w/ <img src=http:/// >
  1448. # [19:33] <timeless> ... <SVG> is like <HTML> but for graphics
  1449. # [19:33] * Quits: ed_tpac (~ed@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
  1450. # [19:33] * Joins: marcjohlic (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  1451. # [19:33] <timeless> ... you might have <path>, <circle>, <rect>
  1452. # [19:33] <timeless> ... it's markup
  1453. # [19:33] * glazou hears that as « this is similar but entirely different »
  1454. # [19:33] <timeless> ... just like <html>
  1455. # [19:34] <timeless> ... you can now include it inline in <html>
  1456. # [19:34] <timeless> ... right now, <svg> is treated as something very separate
  1457. # [19:34] <timeless> ... and <html> in <svg> has to be included in a wrapper called <foreignContent>
  1458. # [19:34] * Joins: sunghan__ (~sunghan@public.cloak)
  1459. # [19:34] <timeless> ... we'd like to see <html> inside <svg> w/ a closer relation
  1460. # [19:34] <timeless> ... many people who use HTML and SVG together would like to see that
  1461. # [19:34] * Quits: sunghan (~sunghan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1462. # [19:34] <timeless> ... SVG is often used w/ D3
  1463. # [19:34] <kurosawa> s/foreignContent/foreignObject/
  1464. # [19:34] * timeless http://d3js.org/
  1465. # [19:35] <timeless> paulc: where is that joining defined?
  1466. # [19:35] <timeless> shepazu_: sort of defined
  1467. # [19:35] <timeless> ... it doesn't cover sizings
  1468. # [19:35] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (mjs)
  1469. # [19:35] <timeless> ... but it needs more definition
  1470. # [19:35] <timeless> paulc: where would that be done?
  1471. # [19:35] <Cyril> https://svgwg.org/specs/integration/
  1472. # [19:35] <timeless> shepazu_: we have a document called SVG Integration
  1473. # [19:36] <timeless> i|where is that joining defined|-> http://d3js.org/ Data-Driven Documents|
  1474. # [19:36] <timeless> shepazu_: <object>, <iframe>, <img>, css background:()
  1475. # [19:36] <timeless> ... i used to have <embed>
  1476. # [19:36] <timeless> ... it doesn't have <html:svg>
  1477. # [19:37] <timeless> paulc: scroll up to top
  1478. # [19:37] <timeless> ... FPWD from April
  1479. # [19:37] <timeless> ... what impact does this have on HTML spec?
  1480. # [19:37] <timeless> shepazu_: exclusively talking about SVG and its context
  1481. # [19:37] <timeless> ... we're proposing that it would also cover inline svg
  1482. # [19:37] <timeless> dirk: it doesn't right now
  1483. # [19:37] <timeless> paulc: at that point, it would interact more w/ the current hook
  1484. # [19:37] * Joins: marcjohlic_ (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  1485. # [19:37] <timeless> shepazu_: the current parser hook
  1486. # [19:38] <timeless> ... we'd like to first class citizen <html>
  1487. # [19:38] <timeless> ... rather than have <forentObject>
  1488. # [19:38] <timeless> s/ent/eign/
  1489. # [19:38] <timeless> ... we'd like to have <svg:html>
  1490. # [19:38] <timeless> ... which would be an html root
  1491. # [19:38] * Joins: jnurthen (~jnurthen@public.cloak)
  1492. # [19:38] <timeless> ... inside that you could put html content
  1493. # [19:38] <timeless> ... good idea? bad idea?
  1494. # [19:38] <timeless> ... possibly having <html:circle> merging HTML/SVG
  1495. # [19:38] <Cyril> s/forentObject/foreignObject/
  1496. # [19:38] * timeless Cyril already done, that will fail
  1497. # [19:39] <timeless> paulc: if you're adding taxonomy to SVG
  1498. # [19:39] * Cyril sorry had not seen it
  1499. # [19:39] <timeless> ... and create more increasing link
  1500. # [19:39] <timeless> ... you'll inherit that
  1501. # [19:39] <timeless> shepazu_: yes
  1502. # [19:39] <timeless> q?
  1503. # [19:39] * Zakim sees zcorpan_ on the speaker queue
  1504. # [19:39] <timeless> s|s/forentObject/foreignObject/||
  1505. # [19:39] <timeless> ack zcorpan_
  1506. # [19:39] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1507. # [19:39] <timeless> zcorpan_: Simon, KKW
  1508. # [19:39] * Joins: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak)
  1509. # [19:39] <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
  1510. # [19:39] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfeger on the speaker queue
  1511. # [19:39] <timeless> ... bring up a point Travis mentioned
  1512. # [19:40] * Quits: jamesn (~jnurthen@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1513. # [19:40] * Quits: sunghan_ (~sunghan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1514. # [19:40] <timeless> ... new attribute/element affects parser
  1515. # [19:40] <timeless> ... but it only applies if it has uppercase
  1516. # [19:40] <timeless> ... if it's just lowercase, it doesn't affect the parser
  1517. # [19:40] * Joins: Jingwang_qi (~Jingwang_qi@public.cloak)
  1518. # [19:40] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1519. # [19:40] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  1520. # [19:40] <timeless> shepazu_: and we will not use Uppercase
  1521. # [19:40] <timeless> ... we'll lowercase everything from now on
  1522. # [19:40] <timeless> ... we swear
  1523. # [19:41] <timeless> [ he's lying ]
  1524. # [19:41] <timeless> [ he's a werwolf ]
  1525. # [19:41] <timeless> richardschwerdtfeger: we have declarative tabindex
  1526. # [19:41] <timeless> ... sharing
  1527. # [19:41] * Quits: kinjim (~kinjim@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1528. # [19:41] <shepazu_> s/we'd like to have <svg:html>/we'd like to have an <html> element in SVG/
  1529. # [19:41] <timeless> ... more seemless
  1530. # [19:41] <timeless> ... we have <iframe>
  1531. # [19:41] <timeless> shepazu_: i don't remember current status
  1532. # [19:41] <timeless> ed: i think we do have that
  1533. # [19:42] * Quits: marcjohlic (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1534. # [19:42] * marcjohlic_ is now known as marcjohlic
  1535. # [19:42] <timeless> ... we have a topic for SVG WG agenda to discuss that integration
  1536. # [19:42] <timeless> ed: Eric Dahlstrom, SVG cochair
  1537. # [19:42] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
  1538. # [19:42] -gitbot:#html-wg- [html] darobin pushed 2 new commits to whatwg: https://github.com/w3c/html/compare/c7b287ef2e8a...45d62861f2d1
  1539. # [19:42] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/whatwg 09c8c7a Ian Hickson: [e] (0) typo in :matches() argument...
  1540. # [19:42] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/whatwg 45d6286 Robin Berjon: Merge remote branch 'origin/master' into whatwg
  1541. # [19:42] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
  1542. # [19:42] <timeless> richardschwerdtfeger: let's try to coordinate
  1543. # [19:42] <timeless> ... we're doing it for A11y, but...
  1544. # [19:42] <timeless> paulc: i've heard noone answer "Do we have a taxonomy?"
  1545. # [19:42] <timeless> ... i'll say "we don't"
  1546. # [19:42] <timeless> shepazu_: we know you don't have one
  1547. # [19:43] <timeless> ... we're wondering if you guys are open to the idea of merging <svg> elements into <html>
  1548. # [19:43] <timeless> paulc: if we did that, we'd inherit that taxonomy
  1549. # [19:43] <timeless> shepazu_: taxonomy would be in ARIA
  1550. # [19:43] * Joins: jongund_ (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  1551. # [19:43] <timeless> ... you could do taxonomy w/ a barchart using divs/canvas
  1552. # [19:43] <timeless> ... flash
  1553. # [19:43] <timeless> ... silverlight
  1554. # [19:43] * Joins: smailus_ (~smailus@public.cloak)
  1555. # [19:43] <timeless> richardschwerdtfeger: taxonomy
  1556. # [19:43] <timeless> ... <connector>
  1557. # [19:44] <timeless> ... more specific to svg
  1558. # [19:44] <timeless> ... it'd be nice to have it as an element in <html>
  1559. # [19:44] * richardschwerdtfeger test
  1560. # [19:45] * timeless pass
  1561. # [19:45] <Santabarbara> http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/CONNECTORS/index.xhtml
  1562. # [19:45] <timeless> shepazu_: a connector is a thing that connects two things
  1563. # [19:45] <timeless> ... it's a graph
  1564. # [19:45] <timeless> [ Applause ]
  1565. # [19:45] * Quits: smailus (~smailus@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1566. # [19:45] <timeless> shepazu_: thank you, i appreciate that, i'll be here all week
  1567. # [19:46] <timeless> ... it says "i am the connection between A and B"
  1568. # [19:46] <timeless> ... say you have an org chart/genealogy tree
  1569. # [19:46] <timeless> ... each would be a new connector between different elements
  1570. # [19:47] <timeless> paulc: a) you're getting <rect>/<circle> more intimately into html
  1571. # [19:47] <timeless> ... b) you're also offering <connector> to connect a textbox to a list
  1572. # [19:47] <timeless> shepazu_: personally i think it's challenging
  1573. # [19:47] <timeless> ... one is visual
  1574. # [19:47] <timeless> ... there are ports
  1575. # [19:47] * Quits: jongund (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1576. # [19:47] <timeless> ... also, when you move shapes around, the connector keeps those things connected
  1577. # [19:47] <SteveF> q+
  1578. # [19:47] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfeger, SteveF on the speaker queue
  1579. # [19:47] * jongund_ is now known as jongund
  1580. # [19:47] <timeless> ... there's also virtual navigation
  1581. # [19:48] <timeless> s/virtual/logical/
  1582. # [19:48] <timeless> ... there's also an opportunity to describe the nature of the connection
  1583. # [19:48] <timeless> paulc: are there primitives?
  1584. # [19:48] <timeless> ... child?
  1585. # [19:48] <timeless> shepazu_: i don't think we should drill into that at this point
  1586. # [19:48] * Quits: rubys (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  1587. # [19:48] <timeless> paulc: if we said "blow our minds"
  1588. # [19:49] <timeless> ... continue your work on inline-svg
  1589. # [19:49] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1590. # [19:49] <timeless> ... we'd get connectors for free
  1591. # [19:49] <timeless> ... using them with html could be a separate question
  1592. # [19:49] <timeless> shepazu_: also a bit on focusable:
  1593. # [19:49] * Quits: MarkVickers_ (~MarkVickers@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1594. # [19:49] * SteveF or even just 'blow us'
  1595. # [19:49] <timeless> richardschwerdtfeger: a number of discussions in PF
  1596. # [19:49] <timeless> ... on tabindex=
  1597. # [19:49] <timeless> janina: another topic
  1598. # [19:49] * shepazu_ SteveF, only you, baby
  1599. # [19:49] * Joins: MarkVickers_ (~MarkVickers@public.cloak)
  1600. # [19:50] <timeless> richardschwerdtfeger: we'll run into this tomorrow
  1601. # [19:50] <timeless> ... CSS has flexbox
  1602. # [19:50] <timeless> ... changes flow of page
  1603. # [19:50] <timeless> ... tabindex doesn't follow that
  1604. # [19:50] <timeless> ... not sure if today/now
  1605. # [19:50] <timeless> ... big can of worms
  1606. # [19:51] <timeless> paulc: taxonomy for graphics
  1607. # [19:51] <timeless> ... expanded to inline-<svg>
  1608. # [19:51] <timeless> ... expanded that to expanding set of objects in svg to include <connector>
  1609. # [19:51] <timeless> ... and told us we might be able to use it in HTML
  1610. # [19:51] <timeless> ... also event handler
  1611. # [19:51] <timeless> q?
  1612. # [19:51] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfeger, SteveF on the speaker queue
  1613. # [19:52] <timeless> ack SteveF
  1614. # [19:52] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfeger on the speaker queue
  1615. # [19:52] * Quits: MarkVickers_ (~MarkVickers@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1616. # [19:52] * Joins: MarkVickers (~MarkVickers@public.cloak)
  1617. # [19:52] <timeless> SteveF: wrt <connector>
  1618. # [19:52] * Quits: MarkVickers (~MarkVickers@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1619. # [19:52] * Joins: MarkVickers (~MarkVickers@public.cloak)
  1620. # [19:52] <timeless> ... how would it help
  1621. # [19:52] <timeless> ... what are UCs for <html>
  1622. # [19:52] <timeless> ... from looking at it
  1623. # [19:52] <timeless> ... it appears to be mainly accessibility info?
  1624. # [19:52] <timeless> shepazu_: no
  1625. # [19:52] <timeless> ... if you've seen a meme w/ a flow chart
  1626. # [19:52] <timeless> ... anyone would be able to use it
  1627. # [19:52] <timeless> ... navigation for sighted people as well
  1628. # [19:53] <timeless> SteveF: advantage of this over additional attributes?
  1629. # [19:53] <timeless> ... rather than adding an element
  1630. # [19:53] <timeless> shepazu_: you don't want title=/label=
  1631. # [19:53] <timeless> ... you want it to be in different languages
  1632. # [19:53] <timeless> ... connector can have description as a child
  1633. # [19:53] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
  1634. # [19:53] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html ArtB
  1635. # [19:53] <timeless> ... deeper information
  1636. # [19:53] * Quits: taku (~taku@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  1637. # [19:53] <timeless> SteveF: <div att=connector>
  1638. # [19:54] <timeless> ... a lot easier to add attributes than elements to html
  1639. # [19:54] <timeless> shepazu_: yes
  1640. # [19:54] <timeless> ... i'm not proposing <connector>s for html
  1641. # [19:54] <timeless> ack richardschwerdtfeger
  1642. # [19:54] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1643. # [19:54] <timeless> richardschwerdtfeger: <connector> gives semantic and drawing
  1644. # [19:54] <timeless> ... two boxes drawn in html
  1645. # [19:54] * Quits: ShaneM (~ShaneM@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1646. # [19:54] <timeless> ... and then i can draw the actual connector
  1647. # [19:55] * Joins: cyns (~cyns@public.cloak)
  1648. # [19:55] <timeless> SteveF: i thought we were talking about HTML
  1649. # [19:55] * Quits: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak) (richardschwerdtfeger)
  1650. # [19:55] <timeless> shepazu_: i'd rather you see the proposal + UCs first
  1651. # [19:55] * Quits: jongund (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1652. # [19:55] <timeless> cyns: Cynthia Shelly, Microsoft
  1653. # [19:55] * Quits: IanPouncey (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  1654. # [19:55] <timeless> ... we have connectors in Visio
  1655. # [19:56] <timeless> ... they're pretty complex
  1656. # [19:56] <timeless> ... they'd be hard to do w/ attributes
  1657. # [19:56] <timeless> s/Visio/Visio - i worked on them/
  1658. # [19:56] * Joins: jongund (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  1659. # [19:56] <timeless> paulc: have we done what you wanted to do?
  1660. # [19:56] * Quits: cyns (~cyns@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  1661. # [19:56] <timeless> ... some talk of doing work w/o changing html
  1662. # [19:56] * Joins: cyns (~cyns@public.cloak)
  1663. # [19:56] <timeless> ... sounds like you do things as long as you do it in lowercase, you just do your thing
  1664. # [19:57] <timeless> shepazu_: yes
  1665. # [19:57] * Quits: tomoyuki (~tomoyuki@public.cloak) (tomoyuki)
  1666. # [19:57] <timeless> paulc: when would you have a doc for review?
  1667. # [19:57] <timeless> shepazu_: 4 months?
  1668. # [19:57] <timeless> [ Nods ]
  1669. # [19:57] <timeless> paulc: WG Draft for review?
  1670. # [19:57] <timeless> shepazu_: yes
  1671. # [19:57] <timeless> paulc: chairs make sure we're aware of document
  1672. # [19:57] <timeless> ... helps to identify what parts of document to look at
  1673. # [19:57] <timeless> ... or know what you've broken
  1674. # [19:57] <timeless> ... think you might break
  1675. # [19:57] <timeless> ... ask if other changes are needed
  1676. # [19:58] <timeless> ... asking us to just look at a dead cat
  1677. # [19:58] <timeless> ... "it's a dead cat"
  1678. # [19:58] <timeless> shepazu_: we'll try to avoid felinicide
  1679. # [19:58] <timeless> paulc: -> Agenda
  1680. # [19:58] <timeless> ... we've covered graphics/taxonomy
  1681. # [19:59] <timeless> richardschwerdtfeger: we met w/ WebApps earlier in the week
  1682. # [19:59] <timeless> ... we're proposing reflected attributes
  1683. # [19:59] <timeless> ... roles
  1684. # [19:59] <timeless> ... on elements
  1685. # [19:59] <timeless> ... getComputedRole()/getComputedLabel()
  1686. # [19:59] <timeless> ... when we get to CSS discussion
  1687. # [19:59] <timeless> ... CSS injects content into the page
  1688. # [19:59] <timeless> ... name computation gets more involved
  1689. # [20:00] <timeless> ... for test/tools, we need the computed name/role of object
  1690. # [20:00] <timeless> ... we can't depend on the dom any longer
  1691. # [20:00] <timeless> paulc: these are things in the dom
  1692. # [20:00] <timeless> ... which part of WebApps scope is impacted here?
  1693. # [20:00] <timeless> richardschwerdtfeger: we went to WebApps
  1694. # [20:00] <timeless> ... chaals said submit it here
  1695. # [20:00] <timeless> paulc: where in their family of specs would it land
  1696. # [20:01] <timeless> richardschwerdtfeger: it would be on a DOM element
  1697. # [20:01] <timeless> paulc: that's where i was going
  1698. # [20:01] <timeless> ... who owns DOM?
  1699. # [20:01] <timeless> ... you'd like additional methods on Elements
  1700. # [20:01] <timeless> richardschwerdtfeger: yes
  1701. # [20:01] <timeless> ... not just for HTML, same things for SVG
  1702. # [20:01] <timeless> paulc: best way to handle this
  1703. # [20:01] <timeless> ... when we talk about After HTML5
  1704. # [20:01] <timeless> ... we should add a sub-element
  1705. # [20:01] * Joins: jongund_ (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  1706. # [20:01] <timeless> ... sub-item
  1707. # [20:02] <timeless> ... that HTML WG had assigned to it DOM4
  1708. # [20:02] <timeless> ... has to clearly define its future for DOM
  1709. # [20:02] <timeless> ... chaals gave you a very good answer
  1710. # [20:02] <timeless> ... i gave the Indie-UI the same answer
  1711. # [20:02] <timeless> ... do the work, we'll figure out where it belongs
  1712. # [20:02] <timeless> ... i'm trying to give the same sentiment
  1713. # [20:02] <timeless> richardschwerdtfeger: i wanted to give a headsup
  1714. # [20:02] <timeless> janina: this seemed like the time
  1715. # [20:03] <timeless> i|we met|Topic: ComputedRole/ComputedLabel|
  1716. # [20:03] <SteveF> Element.getComputedRole() thread on PF list http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Oct/thread.html#msg120
  1717. # [20:03] <timeless> topic: EventHandler enumeration
  1718. # [20:03] <timeless> janina: you've said no in the past
  1719. # [20:04] <timeless> ... maybe things have changed
  1720. # [20:04] <timeless> ... we understand you can get an enumeration of
  1721. # [20:04] <timeless> ... what's registered for each particular element platform by platform for particular element
  1722. # [20:04] * Quits: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1723. # [20:04] <timeless> ... or with a plugin
  1724. # [20:04] <timeless> ... i'd like to ask John Gunderman to talk about it
  1725. # [20:05] <timeless> s/John Gunderman/Jon Gunderson/
  1726. # [20:05] <timeless> jon: Jon Gunderson
  1727. # [20:05] <timeless> janina: is shane in the room (to point to past requests)
  1728. # [20:05] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
  1729. # [20:05] <timeless> jon: useful for a11y, in evaluation tools
  1730. # [20:05] * Joins: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak)
  1731. # [20:05] <timeless> ... if someone has assigned a role=widget to an Element
  1732. # [20:05] <timeless> ... you expect keyboard/click handlers related to the role
  1733. # [20:06] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak)
  1734. # [20:06] <timeless> ... w/ Testing Tools, we need to look for things related to that node/its parent
  1735. # [20:06] * Quits: jongund (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1736. # [20:06] <timeless> ... we need a special api for a particular browser
  1737. # [20:06] * jongund_ is now known as jongund
  1738. # [20:06] <timeless> ... or if we're on a server w/ HTMLUnit
  1739. # [20:06] <timeless> ... we need an extension
  1740. # [20:06] <timeless> ... maybe we just want to know "is there a keyup/keydown/mouseevent?"
  1741. # [20:06] <timeless> ... "are there mouseevents on this <div>?"
  1742. # [20:06] <timeless> ... then "this is something interactive"
  1743. # [20:07] <timeless> ... "are you using an ARIA role=?"
  1744. # [20:07] <timeless> ... "ARIA role=widget, is there a keyboard handler?"
  1745. # [20:07] <SteveF> q+
  1746. # [20:07] * Zakim sees SteveF on the speaker queue
  1747. # [20:07] <timeless> ... for Indie-UI
  1748. # [20:07] <timeless> ... "we're seeing key handlers, maybe you should use Indie-UI events"
  1749. # [20:07] <timeless> ... problem for me as a developer of an evaluation UI
  1750. # [20:07] <timeless> ... i develop specific test cases
  1751. # [20:07] <timeless> ... i can't use the DOM to get that event info
  1752. # [20:08] <timeless> ... in my unit test, i basically skip anything related to event handlers
  1753. # [20:08] <timeless> ... i can't build test pages that automatically test themselves
  1754. # [20:08] <timeless> paulc: so you want a way to enumerate all event handlers?
  1755. # [20:08] <timeless> jon: no, just are there any for a given type on a given node
  1756. # [20:08] <timeless> ... boolean is enough
  1757. # [20:08] <adrianba> q+
  1758. # [20:08] * Zakim sees SteveF, adrianba on the speaker queue
  1759. # [20:08] <timeless> ... i don't know what it will do, just know that it will listen
  1760. # [20:09] <timeless> paulc: anyone in the room receiving/sending side
  1761. # [20:09] <timeless> janina: there was resistance to doing this in a standardized way
  1762. # [20:09] <SteveF> Report on event listener investigation http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Aug/0090.html
  1763. # [20:09] <timeless> ... easier to build MITM attacks
  1764. # [20:09] <timeless> paulc: oh, you'd know an element had a particular event
  1765. # [20:09] <timeless> ... possibly a DoS? by using event over and over again
  1766. # [20:10] <timeless> Travis: some event handlers are known already, onfoo
  1767. # [20:10] <Cyril> q+
  1768. # [20:10] * Zakim sees SteveF, adrianba, Cyril on the speaker queue
  1769. # [20:10] <timeless> ... what's the difference between that and addEventListener
  1770. # [20:10] <timeless> jon: rarely are inline events used
  1771. # [20:10] <timeless> ... it's pretty rare that people use onclick= on elements
  1772. # [20:10] <timeless> ack SteveF
  1773. # [20:10] * Zakim sees adrianba, Cyril on the speaker queue
  1774. # [20:10] <timeless> SteveF: there's an email Shane did
  1775. # [20:10] <timeless> ... on event listener registration
  1776. # [20:10] <timeless> ... PF discussion
  1777. # [20:10] <SteveF> ack me
  1778. # [20:10] * Zakim sees adrianba, Cyril on the speaker queue
  1779. # [20:10] <timeless> ... background
  1780. # [20:11] <timeless> s/ack me//
  1781. # [20:11] <timeless> ack adrianba
  1782. # [20:11] * Zakim sees Cyril on the speaker queue
  1783. # [20:11] <timeless> adrianba: Adrian Bateman, Microsoft
  1784. # [20:11] <timeless> ... a bit confused about specific UC
  1785. # [20:11] <timeless> ... this might be helpful for those few times where you have an event handler attached to a specific element
  1786. # [20:11] <timeless> ... increasingly, control libraries developed
  1787. # [20:11] <jongund> q+
  1788. # [20:11] * Zakim sees Cyril, jongund on the speaker queue
  1789. # [20:11] <timeless> ... event handlers tend to be on different elements
  1790. # [20:11] <timeless> ... events captured somewhere else
  1791. # [20:12] <timeless> ... seems it'd be hard to discern anything about how interactive an element is based on presence of an event handler
  1792. # [20:12] <timeless> ack Cyril
  1793. # [20:12] * Zakim sees jongund on the speaker queue
  1794. # [20:12] <timeless> Cyril: not sure if it's sufficient for you
  1795. # [20:12] <timeless> ... you could overload addEventListener
  1796. # [20:12] <timeless> ... and setAttribute
  1797. # [20:12] <timeless> ... i've done it in an application
  1798. # [20:12] <timeless> paulc: i've seen nods
  1799. # [20:12] <timeless> ... have you tried jongund ?
  1800. # [20:12] <timeless> s/jon:/jongund:/
  1801. # [20:12] <adrianba> +1 to cyril - we do this for similar purposes
  1802. # [20:12] <timeless> jongund: we have a sidebar in Firefox
  1803. # [20:13] <timeless> ... if you open the sidebar after you've loaded the page, you don't have a chance to overload
  1804. # [20:13] <timeless> ... also in a browser, there's no guarantee when your overload gets into the process
  1805. # [20:13] <timeless> ... for parent/child relationship
  1806. # [20:13] <timeless> ... we do look at all parent elements
  1807. # [20:13] <timeless> ... and child elements
  1808. # [20:13] <timeless> ... not definitive
  1809. # [20:13] <timeless> ... if i see there are mouse handlers, but no roles
  1810. # [20:13] <timeless> ... i don't know for sure, but i can probably tell him that you need to look at what you're doing
  1811. # [20:13] <timeless> ... maybe add ARIA
  1812. # [20:14] <cyns> q+ to say that UAAG was asking for a similar feature. I gave them feedback that it wasn't feasible to do this because the events could be bound at any time, and there was no way to know if you got them all
  1813. # [20:14] * Zakim sees jongund, cyns on the speaker queue
  1814. # [20:14] <timeless> ... and if you do add them, and i don't see keyboard, i can tell them they still aren't fulfilling ARAI
  1815. # [20:14] <timeless> s/ARAI/ARIA/
  1816. # [20:14] <timeless> ... people build a spec
  1817. # [20:14] <timeless> s/spec/page
  1818. # [20:14] <cyns> q?
  1819. # [20:14] * Zakim sees jongund, cyns on the speaker queue
  1820. # [20:14] <timeless> ... they read spec, they add aria role=menu
  1821. # [20:14] <timeless> ... they add that all over
  1822. # [20:14] <timeless> ... look at aria evaluation
  1823. # [20:14] <timeless> ... it doesn't work because there aren't event handlers
  1824. # [20:15] <timeless> ... not supporting keyboard/managing focus
  1825. # [20:15] * Joins: MarkVickers_ (~MarkVickers@public.cloak)
  1826. # [20:15] <timeless> ... i can use hooks to tell people that they need it
  1827. # [20:15] * Quits: MarkVickers_ (~MarkVickers@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
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  1829. # [20:15] <timeless> Travis: i have a resistance to a general purpose feature in the language
  1830. # [20:15] <timeless> ... i see it's a valid UC for testing/a11y
  1831. # [20:15] <timeless> ... when you want to prod it
  1832. # [20:15] <timeless> ... testing at load time is a small portion, if you don't exercise event handlers
  1833. # [20:16] <timeless> ... have you thought about asking the Web Driver folks to get it added there?
  1834. # [20:16] <timeless> Josh_Soref: +1
  1835. # [20:16] <timeless> jongund: I haven't looked into that
  1836. # [20:16] <timeless> ... we haven't looked in PF either
  1837. # [20:16] <timeless> paulc: Web Driver is more recent
  1838. # [20:16] <timeless> ... more comprehensive testing than the last time PF/A11y asked for this
  1839. # [20:16] <timeless> ... UC is very Test oriented
  1840. # [20:17] <timeless> ... and as Travis said, we should figure out how to test these features post pageload
  1841. # [20:17] <timeless> ... maybe that's a possible route
  1842. # [20:17] <timeless> q?
  1843. # [20:17] * Zakim sees jongund, cyns on the speaker queue
  1844. # [20:17] * Quits: MarkVickers (~MarkVickers@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  1845. # [20:17] <timeless> ack jongund
  1846. # [20:17] * Zakim sees cyns on the speaker queue
  1847. # [20:17] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1848. # [20:17] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  1849. # [20:17] <timeless> cyns: UAAG WG was asking for a similar feature
  1850. # [20:17] <timeless> ... to track events/change input method of them
  1851. # [20:17] <timeless> ... MS said it wasn't feasible
  1852. # [20:17] <timeless> ... you didn't know if you got all the events
  1853. # [20:18] <timeless> ... I think Web Driver would work
  1854. # [20:18] <timeless> ... In a11y, we're often trying to change the input method
  1855. # [20:18] <timeless> ... i wonder if there's anything we could do to make it feasible
  1856. # [20:18] <timeless> paulc: even if you collect some of them
  1857. # [20:18] <timeless> ... others could come up later
  1858. # [20:19] <cyns> ack me
  1859. # [20:19] <Zakim> cyns, you wanted to say that UAAG was asking for a similar feature. I gave them feedback that it wasn't feasible to do this because the events could be bound at any time, and
  1860. # [20:19] <timeless> ... potentially an infinite number
  1861. # [20:19] <Zakim> ... there was no way to know if you got them all
  1862. # [20:19] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  1863. # [20:19] <timeless> paulc: i heard two implicit action items
  1864. # [20:19] <timeless> ... a11y should go look at Web Driver
  1865. # [20:19] <timeless> ... partial fix for the problem
  1866. # [20:19] <timeless> ... i didn't hear anyone speak to old reason
  1867. # [20:20] <timeless> ... i'll believe that's still a valid pushback
  1868. # [20:20] <timeless> ... maybe less so in testing case as Travis said
  1869. # [20:20] <timeless> ... and shepazu_ took an action item to make sure HTML WG progresses to a particular stage
  1870. # [20:20] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak)
  1871. # [20:20] <timeless> ... and include question in a review request
  1872. # [20:20] <timeless> ... include me in the to: field for public-html@ (technical) or public-html-admin@ (non-technical)
  1873. # [20:21] <timeless> ... if you send review request with technical review, use the former, if you don't have questions, use the latter list
  1874. # [20:21] <timeless> ... shepazu_, you're invited to split the request into two
  1875. # [20:21] <timeless> ... questions in subject field
  1876. # [20:21] <timeless> q+ to note on Process
  1877. # [20:21] * Zakim sees timeless on the speaker queue
  1878. # [20:22] <timeless> paulc: we have another slot this afternoon
  1879. # [20:22] <timeless> ... 4pm for notes, footnotes, roles/validation for digital processing
  1880. # [20:22] <timeless> ... we have a hard stop at 5pm
  1881. # [20:22] <timeless> ... another agenda item, someone calling in from China
  1882. # [20:22] <timeless> janina: that's fine
  1883. # [20:22] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) ("is sleepy")
  1884. # [20:22] <timeless> paulc: cyns, that's the slot you wanted?
  1885. # [20:23] <timeless> cyns: mine was about events
  1886. # [20:23] <timeless> paulc: confirming that we're dropping name computation, access key, captcha
  1887. # [20:23] <timeless> shepazu_: we in SVG ... in an obsolete version of SVG
  1888. # [20:23] <timeless> ... we have a focusable= attribute
  1889. # [20:23] <timeless> ... this serves the purpose
  1890. # [20:23] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak)
  1891. # [20:23] <timeless> ... most stuff in SVG isn't focusable
  1892. # [20:23] <timeless> ... we're thinking of re-adding that for SVG2
  1893. # [20:24] <timeless> ... we also have tabindex=
  1894. # [20:24] <zcorpan_> q+
  1895. # [20:24] * Zakim sees timeless, zcorpan_ on the speaker queue
  1896. # [20:24] <timeless> ... we want to talk about that relationship
  1897. # [20:24] <Cyril> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/interact.html#focusable-attr
  1898. # [20:24] <timeless> q+ timeless_2 to ask shepazu_ about css for focussable
  1899. # [20:24] * Zakim sees timeless, zcorpan_, timeless_2 on the speaker queue
  1900. # [20:24] * Quits: jongund (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  1901. # [20:24] <timeless> paulc: i'd recommend you divide it down to technical topic
  1902. # [20:24] * Quits: jnurthen (~jnurthen@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
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  1904. # [20:24] <timeless> ... xpost to svg@ +public-html@
  1905. # [20:24] <timeless> ack zcorpan_
  1906. # [20:24] * Zakim sees timeless, timeless_2 on the speaker queue
  1907. # [20:24] <timeless> zcorpan_: tabindex=
  1908. # [20:25] <timeless> ... it's not necessary to have focusable, tabindex=0 means this is focusable
  1909. # [20:25] <timeless> shepazu_: we'll have a longer discussion someplace else
  1910. # [20:25] <timeless> q?
  1911. # [20:25] * Zakim sees timeless, timeless_2 on the speaker queue
  1912. # [20:25] <timeless> ack me
  1913. # [20:25] <Zakim> timeless, you wanted to note on Process
  1914. # [20:25] * Zakim sees timeless_2 on the speaker queue
  1915. # [20:26] <timeless> ack me
  1916. # [20:26] <Zakim> timeless_2, you wanted to ask shepazu_ about css for focussable
  1917. # [20:26] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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  1920. # [20:27] <timeless> paulc: recess for lunch
  1921. # [20:27] <timeless> ... back at 2pm
  1922. # [20:27] <timeless> [ lunch until 2pm ]
  1923. # [20:27] * Quits: xhuang (~emu@public.cloak) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  1924. # [20:27] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  1925. # [20:27] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
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  1932. # [20:29] <timeless> s/Process/Process TF is encouraging review requests to identify the areas which would be interesting to reviewers/
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  2005. # [21:41] <paulc> rrsagent, generate minutes
  2006. # [21:41] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html paulc
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  2013. # [21:47] * rubys1 is now known as Santabarbara
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  2015. # [21:48] * timeless is coming
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  2018. # [21:50] <jcraig> agenda?
  2019. # [21:50] * Zakim sees nothing on the agenda
  2020. # [21:50] * jcraig agenda URL please? thx
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  2040. # [21:58] * rubys wonders where timeless is
  2041. # [21:59] * timeless coming -- sorry, dropped in on irc
  2042. # [21:59] * timeless err, AC
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  2057. # [22:05] * zcorpan rubys: do you have a pointer to your old "xhtml thought experiment" blog post? tab failed to find it and i can't find it either
  2058. # [22:06] * Quits: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  2059. # [22:06] <timeless> topic: Agenda Bashing
  2060. # [22:06] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@public.cloak)
  2061. # [22:06] * kurosawa_ is now known as kurosawa
  2062. # [22:06] <timeless> paulc: this item was meant to give us an update on the joint Editing TF
  2063. # [22:06] * Joins: Noriya (~Noriya@public.cloak)
  2064. # [22:06] * rniwa is back to HTMLL WG!
  2065. # [22:06] <timeless> ... not just HTML+WebApps, but lots of other people
  2066. # [22:06] * Parts: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak) (Leaving)
  2067. # [22:06] <timeless> ... i'm not trying to replay the hours of discussion from earlier in the week
  2068. # [22:06] <timeless> ... i think it's important to make the HTML WG aware of that discussion
  2069. # [22:06] <timeless> ... after that is a Coffee Break
  2070. # [22:07] <timeless> ... and then After HTML5 discussion
  2071. # [22:07] <timeless> ... concrete, look at scribbled notes
  2072. # [22:07] <timeless> ... 4pm with PF WG and DpugIG + CSS
  2073. # [22:07] <timeless> ... also folded Canvas TF report -- probably first
  2074. # [22:07] <timeless> ... i may have had a request to do it first
  2075. # [22:07] <timeless> ... i haven't confirmed, i just sent an email to China
  2076. # [22:07] <timeless> ... it's 5am (China time) now
  2077. # [22:07] * Parts: joanie (~joanmarie@public.cloak) (joanie)
  2078. # [22:08] <timeless> ... planning to do 5:00-5:30pm on WebPerf proposal
  2079. # [22:08] * Joins: hjlee (~hjlee@public.cloak)
  2080. # [22:08] <timeless> ... we still don't have anything after Coffee tomorrow
  2081. # [22:08] <timeless> ... I'm reordering EME bits
  2082. # [22:08] <timeless> ... I had a request about Bug 26332
  2083. # [22:08] <timeless> ... currently anchored @ 10am
  2084. # [22:08] <timeless> ... and a general pointer to EME bugs on first item
  2085. # [22:09] <timeless> ... still talking to TF participants about order
  2086. # [22:09] <timeless> ... darobin, under DOM4 test results, i just picked up pointers to documents we attempted to use for CfC and are ready to use for TransReq
  2087. # [22:09] <timeless> ... I think that's all the changes
  2088. # [22:09] <timeless> ... darobin ?
  2089. # [22:09] <timeless> Topic: Editing TF
  2090. # [22:10] <timeless> darobin: editing, contentEditable are major pains to everyone
  2091. # [22:10] <timeless> ... a few months ago we gathered people together
  2092. # [22:10] <timeless> ... we set up a TF
  2093. # [22:10] <timeless> ... there's a lot to fix, a lot of moving parts
  2094. # [22:11] <timeless> ... we tried to split into manageable chunks
  2095. # [22:11] <timeless> ... even if we don't solve editing, just improve a part
  2096. # [22:11] <timeless> ... it makes life easier for people
  2097. # [22:11] <timeless> ... we have several things in parallel
  2098. # [22:11] <timeless> ... 1. collaboration w/ Indie-UI -- Intention Events
  2099. # [22:12] <timeless> ... instead of having to intercept cmd-z + ctrl-z + ctrl-u (some locale) + shaking phone
  2100. # [22:12] <timeless> ... UA does transformation for you
  2101. # [22:12] <timeless> ... undo might not be part of the first batch
  2102. # [22:12] <timeless> ... text insertion, deletion, newlines, selections
  2103. # [22:12] * Joins: abarsto (~abarsto@public.cloak)
  2104. # [22:12] <timeless> ... that's meant to abstract on top of what's going on
  2105. # [22:12] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
  2106. # [22:12] <timeless> Travis: worth noting
  2107. # [22:13] <timeless> ... these are actions... Intentions... confused me
  2108. # [22:13] <timeless> ... these Intentions come after the classic device-events are fired
  2109. # [22:13] <timeless> ... you'd still, if copying/undoing via ctrl-z
  2110. # [22:13] <timeless> ... you'd get keydowns, etc
  2111. # [22:13] <timeless> ... if after all of that, nothing was done to upset the browser's intention for undo
  2112. # [22:13] <timeless> ... it falls at the end of the pipeline
  2113. # [22:14] <timeless> rniwa: re: Intention, clear aspects of Selection
  2114. # [22:14] <timeless> ... there's IE getSelection(), but no spec
  2115. # [22:14] <timeless> ... trying to write a small spec to document what's implemented by browser
  2116. # [22:14] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak)
  2117. # [22:14] <timeless> ... some aspects are lacking
  2118. # [22:14] <timeless> ... e.g. in github
  2119. # [22:14] <timeless> ... caret positioning is underspec'd
  2120. # [22:14] <timeless> ... selection at end of previous line/beginning of next line
  2121. # [22:14] <timeless> ... if text wraps via soft-wrapping
  2122. # [22:15] <timeless> ... you can't tell from DOM if caret is at the end of the line, or after the line break
  2123. # [22:15] <timeless> ... or you can't tell if the caret is before/after text direction transitions
  2124. # [22:15] <timeless> ... some browsers render the caret in different locations
  2125. # [22:15] <timeless> ... knowing where the caret is enables you to position a toolbar correctly
  2126. # [22:16] <timeless> darobin: there's also caret-direction
  2127. # [22:16] <timeless> ... which might influence selection
  2128. # [22:16] <timeless> rniwa: ... in Firefox
  2129. # [22:16] <timeless> darobin: it needs to be interoperable
  2130. # [22:16] <timeless> rniwa: based on UCs
  2131. # [22:16] <timeless> darobin: .contentEditable is problematic
  2132. # [22:16] <timeless> ... = true, you get a huge bags of behaviors
  2133. # [22:16] <timeless> ... browser starts handling bold, underline, undo
  2134. # [22:16] <timeless> ... first thing you do is stop browser from doing everything
  2135. # [22:17] <timeless> ... so we're working on X.contentEditable = "typing"
  2136. # [22:17] <timeless> ... when you set that on, you get the events related to editing, but the browser doesn't respond to the events
  2137. # [22:17] <timeless> ... this is a primitive people can use to build editors on top of
  2138. # [22:17] * Joins: tantek_ (~tantek_@public.cloak)
  2139. # [22:17] <timeless> rniwa: the key point of X.contentEditable = "typing"
  2140. # [22:18] <timeless> ... is that it allows browsers to handle IME / spellcheck
  2141. # [22:18] <timeless> ... in some cases, if you have a round of CJK
  2142. # [22:18] <timeless> ... and you want to convert the text back to composing state
  2143. # [22:18] <timeless> ... you could
  2144. # [22:18] <timeless> ... the application specific logic would be handled by the app
  2145. # [22:18] <timeless> darobin: it's more complicated than IME/spellcheck
  2146. # [22:19] <timeless> ... we'll also do compositing
  2147. # [22:19] <timeless> ... 'e -> é
  2148. # [22:19] <timeless> ... deadkeys, hebrew punctuation
  2149. # [22:19] * Joins: sunghan (~sunghan@public.cloak)
  2150. # [22:19] <timeless> paulc: it's one thing to scribe puns
  2151. # [22:19] <timeless> ... but another to scribe editing instructions into irc
  2152. # [22:19] <timeless> darobin: editing options
  2153. # [22:20] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
  2154. # [22:20] <timeless> ... possibility to insert a Shadow DOM with the text before IME/compositing is done
  2155. # [22:20] <timeless> rniwa: one aspect of Editing
  2156. # [22:20] <timeless> ... that i'm not sure of
  2157. # [22:20] <timeless> ... is selection, the way to serialize selection
  2158. # [22:20] <timeless> ... if you do getSelection().toString()
  2159. # [22:20] <timeless> ... you get the plain text of the selected content
  2160. # [22:20] <timeless> ... you get .innerText
  2161. # [22:20] <timeless> ... which isn't spec'd anywhere
  2162. # [22:21] <timeless> ... do we block the spec on this?
  2163. # [22:21] <timeless> glazou: you can also say it's the .textContent
  2164. # [22:21] <timeless> darobin: you don't want that
  2165. # [22:21] <timeless> ... because it gives you hidden text
  2166. # [22:21] <timeless> ... Travis has an action item on it
  2167. # [22:21] <timeless> ... "text events and keyboard events are *easy*"
  2168. # [22:21] * Joins: marcjohlic (~marcjohlic@public.cloak)
  2169. # [22:22] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
  2170. # [22:22] <timeless> rniwa: CSS generated content, i don't think any browser lets you select individual characters of a generated run
  2171. # [22:22] * Joins: benjamp (~benjamp@public.cloak)
  2172. # [22:22] <timeless> ... i think there's a desire to be able to select it
  2173. # [22:22] <timeless> darobin: i'd like to select generated content
  2174. # [22:22] <timeless> ... i want to get the numbers from generated list
  2175. # [22:22] <timeless> glazou: it'd be impossible for the time being
  2176. # [22:22] <paulc> q+
  2177. # [22:22] * Zakim sees paulc on the speaker queue
  2178. # [22:23] <rubys> ack next
  2179. # [22:23] * Zakim sees paulc at the head of the speaker queue
  2180. # [22:23] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2181. # [22:23] * Quits: taku (~taku@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  2182. # [22:23] <benjamp> zakim, code?
  2183. # [22:23] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), benjamp
  2184. # [22:23] <timeless> paulc: seems like this is a module
  2185. # [22:23] <timeless> ... a direction for this TF
  2186. # [22:23] <timeless> ... i made that comment during the WebApps meeting
  2187. # [22:23] <timeless> ... i'll make the same recommendation to the TF
  2188. # [22:24] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  2189. # [22:24] <benjamp> zakim, [Microsoft] is me
  2190. # [22:24] <Zakim> +benjamp; got it
  2191. # [22:24] <timeless> ... probably much easier
  2192. # [22:24] <timeless> darobin: welcome benjamp
  2193. # [22:24] <timeless> ... thanks for showing up
  2194. # [22:24] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  2195. # [22:24] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  2196. # [22:24] * Joins: jcraig_ (~jcraig@public.cloak)
  2197. # [22:24] * rniwa greets benjamp
  2198. # [22:24] <timeless> darobin: contentEditable makes sense as an HTML module, even if it's a 5 line module
  2199. # [22:25] <timeless> ... it could be a good test
  2200. # [22:25] <timeless> ... makes for good practice
  2201. # [22:25] <timeless> paulc: darobin, you said, your preference
  2202. # [22:25] <timeless> ... "not rip the spec apart, just to rip the spec apart"
  2203. # [22:25] <timeless> ... "just to create modules when we need them"
  2204. # [22:25] <timeless> ... maybe that's where it is
  2205. # [22:25] <timeless> darobin: definitely one of the first ones
  2206. # [22:25] <timeless> rniwa: helps that we're a small group of people
  2207. # [22:25] <timeless> ... html-wg has a lot of people
  2208. # [22:26] <timeless> ... maybe there are other parts of the spec that people can work on
  2209. # [22:26] <timeless> darobin: i agree
  2210. # [22:26] <timeless> ... we started on public-webapps@
  2211. # [22:26] <timeless> ... a couple of people contacted me saying 1/2 the content was Editing
  2212. # [22:26] <timeless> ... please go to your own list
  2213. # [22:26] <timeless> ... and webapps is high traffic
  2214. # [22:26] <timeless> benjamp: you were talking about X.contentEditable = "typing"
  2215. # [22:27] <timeless> ... there's a corollary
  2216. # [22:27] <timeless> ... WebKit has X.contentEditable = "plaintext"
  2217. # [22:27] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  2218. # [22:27] * jcraig_ is now known as jcraig
  2219. # [22:27] <timeless> ... which is actually that
  2220. # [22:27] <timeless> ... it's 10 years old
  2221. # [22:27] <timeless> rniwa: "plaintext" is slightly more complicated than "typing"
  2222. # [22:27] <timeless> ... it supports insertion/deletion
  2223. # [22:27] <timeless> darobin: it's a textarea?
  2224. # [22:27] <timeless> rniwa: that's what we internally use to implement it
  2225. # [22:28] <timeless> darobin: when you find out how browsers work
  2226. # [22:28] <timeless> ... you wonder how the web holds together
  2227. # [22:28] <timeless> [ "with crazy glue" ]
  2228. # [22:28] * shepazu is now known as shepazooOOoo
  2229. # [22:28] <timeless> paulc: are there minutes?
  2230. # [22:28] <timeless> darobin: yes
  2231. # [22:28] <timeless> s/minutes/minutes from WebApps/
  2232. # [22:28] <timeless> ... i'll find that
  2233. # [22:29] <rniwa> Editing minutes from HTML WG: http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html#item26
  2234. # [22:29] <rniwa> http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-webapps-minutes.html#item08
  2235. # [22:29] <timeless> topic: After HTML5
  2236. # [22:30] <Zakim> -benjamp
  2237. # [22:30] <timeless> s|Editing minutes from HTML WG: www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html#item26|-> http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html#item26 "selection, editing and user interactions" from WebApps WG meeting|
  2238. # [22:30] <timeless> s|http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-webapps-minutes.html#item08|-> http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-webapps-minutes.html#item08 "Editing" from WebApps WG meeting|
  2239. # [22:30] <darobin> let's use an Etherpad: https://etherpad.mozilla.org/U16aQP4aQB
  2240. # [22:30] <benjamp> Present+ Ben_Peters
  2241. # [22:30] * Quits: benjamp (~benjamp@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
  2242. # [22:31] <timeless> paulc: rubys and darobin went to the AC meeting to discuss this topic
  2243. # [22:31] <darobin> https://darobin.github.io/modularity-slides
  2244. # [22:31] * Joins: r12a (rishida@public.cloak)
  2245. # [22:31] <timeless> s|https://darobin.github.io/modularity-slides/|-> https://darobin.github.io/modularity-slides/ "HTML Modularisation" slides|
  2246. # [22:31] <timeless> darobin: overall positive
  2247. # [22:32] <timeless> ... questions about "how does this interact w/ PP"
  2248. # [22:32] <timeless> ... "what was your paper trail"
  2249. # [22:32] <timeless> ... no interesting questions
  2250. # [22:32] <timeless> [ Cunningham's Law ]
  2251. # [22:32] <timeless> [ Magic & Innovation ]
  2252. # [22:32] <timeless> rubys: tantek challenged that
  2253. # [22:32] <timeless> [ Tooling & Agility ]
  2254. # [22:32] * Quits: marcjohlic (~marcjohlic@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  2255. # [22:32] <timeless> rubys: rat hole on github
  2256. # [22:32] <timeless> ... not actions here
  2257. # [22:32] * Joins: abarsto (~abarsto@public.cloak)
  2258. # [22:32] * Quits: ArtB (~abarsto@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  2259. # [22:32] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
  2260. # [22:33] <timeless> ... i characterized as WIP
  2261. # [22:33] <timeless> s/that/that (Extensible Web Manifesto)/
  2262. # [22:33] <timeless> [ Software Development ]
  2263. # [22:33] <timeless> rubys: some challenged bleeding is only
  2264. # [22:33] <timeless> ... i don't think any wanted only old
  2265. # [22:33] <timeless> ... plenty in middle
  2266. # [22:33] <timeless> [ Modularisation ]
  2267. # [22:33] <timeless> s/[ Modularisation ]/[ The Unix Philosophy ]/
  2268. # [22:34] <timeless> [ Modularisation ]
  2269. # [22:34] <timeless> rubys: perceived as a ding
  2270. # [22:34] <timeless> ... two people defended work they did
  2271. # [22:34] <timeless> ... XHTML modularization let you picked one of part A and one of part B
  2272. # [22:34] <timeless> ... hypothetically, if you split <table> out to a different document
  2273. # [22:34] * rniwa thanks timeless for correcting the heading for URLs :)
  2274. # [22:34] <timeless> ... it wouldn't mean that you can not implement it
  2275. # [22:35] <timeless> paulc: when we did the breakout on Wednesday
  2276. # [22:35] <timeless> ... I encouraged people to look at the Extension spec
  2277. # [22:35] <timeless> ... which says you can use HTML5 + others
  2278. # [22:35] <timeless> ... I think there were very few people beyond Noah Mendelson
  2279. # [22:35] <timeless> ... who raised the concern
  2280. # [22:35] <timeless> ... who read that spec
  2281. # [22:35] <timeless> rubys: we made a change
  2282. # [22:36] <timeless> ... noah said "you can't say I'm an HTML5 client without being more specific"
  2283. # [22:36] * Joins: bobtung (~bobbytung@public.cloak)
  2284. # [22:36] <timeless> ... you have to say "conformant to HTML5+longdesc"
  2285. # [22:36] <timeless> ... Hixie said you can just say "conformant to HTML5"
  2286. # [22:36] <timeless> ... noah was saying you had to specify
  2287. # [22:36] <timeless> ... we tried on IP provenance
  2288. # [22:36] <timeless> ... we tried twice to say
  2289. # [22:37] * Joins: aphllip (~aphillip@public.cloak)
  2290. # [22:37] <timeless> ... currently, someone sends IP to ML
  2291. # [22:37] <timeless> ... and it makes it to the spec
  2292. # [22:37] <timeless> ... we tried to track
  2293. # [22:37] <timeless> ... github does some tracking
  2294. # [22:37] * Quits: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak) (richardschwerdtfeger)
  2295. # [22:37] <timeless> ... we said we could report various contributors
  2296. # [22:37] <timeless> ... tracking when people stop working for employers when ...
  2297. # [22:37] <timeless> ... we can't do
  2298. # [22:37] <timeless> ... more data is good news
  2299. # [22:38] <timeless> ... but it seems to rathole
  2300. # [22:38] <timeless> MikeSmith: that argument doesn't make sense
  2301. # [22:38] * Joins: addison (~aphillip@public.cloak)
  2302. # [22:38] <timeless> ... we're there already
  2303. # [22:38] <timeless> ... using outside systems won't make it any worse
  2304. # [22:38] <timeless> [ Questions? ]
  2305. # [22:38] <timeless> paulc: darobin, you're the only one w/ an action
  2306. # [22:38] <timeless> q?
  2307. # [22:38] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2308. # [22:38] <timeless> action-249?
  2309. # [22:38] * trackbot is looking up action-249.
  2310. # [22:38] <trackbot> action-249 -- Robin Berjon to Triage new whatwg updates, html bugs, landscape document in order to list priority content for modules -- due 2014-11-06 -- OPEN
  2311. # [22:38] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/249
  2312. # [22:39] * Joins: fsasaki (fsasaki@public.cloak)
  2313. # [22:39] * Joins: stone (~emu@public.cloak)
  2314. # [22:39] <timeless> paulc: hoping to make a more extensive list
  2315. # [22:39] <timeless> ... i know you were busy over lunch
  2316. # [22:39] <darobin> https://etherpad.mozilla.org/U16aQP4aQB
  2317. # [22:39] <timeless> ... i don't know if we want to open up your scratch pad
  2318. # [22:39] * Joins: HZ (~HZ@public.cloak)
  2319. # [22:40] <timeless> paulc: DnD was there
  2320. # [22:40] <timeless> ... what was the definitive list of things that failed to exit CR?
  2321. # [22:40] <timeless> darobin: date and time related elements
  2322. # [22:40] <timeless> paulc: categorize as "failed CR items"
  2323. # [22:41] * Joins: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak)
  2324. # [22:41] <timeless> ... things to polish spec text, polish test suite, polish implementations
  2325. # [22:41] <timeless> ... we had a request from Addison and i18n
  2326. # [22:41] <timeless> present+ Addison_Phillips
  2327. # [22:42] <timeless> aphllip: Addison Phillips, chair of i18n WG
  2328. # [22:42] * Joins: Zefa_ (~Zefa@public.cloak)
  2329. # [22:42] <timeless> ... i brought my cohorts here
  2330. # [22:42] <timeless> ... we have a couple of things we proposed in the past
  2331. # [22:42] <timeless> ... not a good fit for HTML5
  2332. # [22:42] <timeless> ... one was handling TZ values
  2333. # [22:42] <timeless> ... for time values on the web
  2334. # [22:42] <timeless> ... we have a proposal
  2335. # [22:42] <timeless> ... it was created
  2336. # [22:42] * Joins: wei-james (~wei-james@public.cloak)
  2337. # [22:42] <timeless> ... it's in HTML.next bug space
  2338. # [22:42] <r12a> https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Locale-based_forms
  2339. # [22:42] * Joins: renmin (~renmin@public.cloak)
  2340. # [22:43] <r12a> https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/HTML5TimeZone
  2341. # [22:43] <timeless> s|https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Locale-based_forms|-> https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Locale-based_forms Locale-based forms in HTML pages|
  2342. # [22:43] <timeless> s|https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/HTML5TimeZone|-> https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/HTML5TimeZone HTML5 TimeZone|
  2343. # [22:43] <timeless> aphllip: timezone
  2344. # [22:43] <timeless> ... calendar
  2345. # [22:43] <timeless> ... there's a Blink intent-to-implement
  2346. # [22:43] <timeless> ... we have good guidance there
  2347. # [22:44] <timeless> paulc: things we tried to do in 5.0 + moved out, or only got to bug stage
  2348. # [22:44] <timeless> aphllip: things we either didn't fit in the timeline from early on
  2349. # [22:44] <timeless> ... TZ is that
  2350. # [22:44] * Quits: aphllip (~aphillip@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  2351. # [22:44] <timeless> ... or things which exist in HTML structure and were considered out-of-scope
  2352. # [22:44] <rniwa> q+
  2353. # [22:44] * Zakim sees rniwa on the speaker queue
  2354. # [22:44] * Joins: marcjohlic1 (~marcjohlic@public.cloak)
  2355. # [22:44] <timeless> paulc: is TZ the only item, or do you have a collection of items
  2356. # [22:44] <timeless> ... how many of wishes do you want?
  2357. # [22:44] * Joins: xhuang (~emu@public.cloak)
  2358. # [22:44] <timeless> ... and if your third wish is for more wishes...
  2359. # [22:44] <timeless> darobin: that's locale dependent
  2360. # [22:45] <timeless> paulc: no, the number of wishes and when they occur is TZ dependent
  2361. # [22:45] <timeless> aphllip: TZ is concrete
  2362. # [22:45] <timeless> ... forms affected by Locales
  2363. # [22:45] <timeless> QQQ: Locale varies
  2364. # [22:46] <timeless> ... we've identified issues we want to think through more
  2365. # [22:46] <timeless> ... possible security problems
  2366. # [22:46] <xiaoqian> s/QQQ/Richard
  2367. # [22:46] * timeless ishida
  2368. # [22:46] * Joins: Zefa__ (~Zefa@public.cloak)
  2369. # [22:46] <timeless> aphllip: 3rd wish, we wished our issues list before we came here
  2370. # [22:46] <timeless> [ laughter ]
  2371. # [22:47] <timeless> s/Richard/r12a/
  2372. # [22:47] <timeless> paulc: generally thinking about doing
  2373. # [22:47] <timeless> ... if we have a subgroup, e.g. Editing TF
  2374. # [22:47] <timeless> ... pull it out into a module, then let them do a pull request
  2375. # [22:47] <timeless> ... and see their proposed replacement
  2376. # [22:47] <timeless> ... wondering if i18n WG would be willing to work like that
  2377. # [22:47] <timeless> ... high level Q
  2378. # [22:47] * Quits: stone (~emu@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  2379. # [22:47] <timeless> ... would it suit your workmode?
  2380. # [22:48] <timeless> ... suit your direction?
  2381. # [22:48] <timeless> aphllip: i think not
  2382. # [22:48] <timeless> ... although we do develop things like that
  2383. # [22:48] <timeless> ... we generally have our feedback on what others develop
  2384. # [22:48] <timeless> ... TZ is recommendation for an approach to solve a specific set of problems
  2385. # [22:48] <timeless> ... w/in the larger context of say, <form>s
  2386. # [22:48] <timeless> darobin: you don't have to do all the work yourself
  2387. # [22:49] <timeless> ... we're not excluding people from outside the group contributing to modules
  2388. # [22:49] <timeless> ... we're making a list now
  2389. # [22:49] <timeless> ... but this isn't a finalized list
  2390. # [22:49] <timeless> aphllip: we're not shy, not against helping
  2391. # [22:49] <timeless> ... but we come here not understanding how we'd do that yet
  2392. # [22:49] <timeless> paulc: we come unprepared because we don't know what to ask you to do yet
  2393. # [22:49] <timeless> [ mutual confusion ]
  2394. # [22:49] <timeless> paulc: your desires to improve a part of html5+ would fit in w/ this model
  2395. # [22:49] <timeless> ... we might have to find someone to work w/ you
  2396. # [22:50] <timeless> ... set UC, Reqs, and go from there
  2397. # [22:50] <timeless> ... you provide commentary on that
  2398. # [22:50] <rniwa> q?
  2399. # [22:50] * Zakim sees rniwa on the speaker queue
  2400. # [22:50] <timeless> ... I mentioned i18n WG in the wiki
  2401. # [22:50] <timeless> ... have i met your needs?
  2402. # [22:50] <timeless> ack rniwa
  2403. # [22:50] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2404. # [22:50] <timeless> rniwa: one thing, looking at the list
  2405. # [22:50] <timeless> ... Locale based forms + HTML timezone
  2406. # [22:50] <timeless> ... it'd be really nice to have concrete user scenarios
  2407. # [22:51] <timeless> ... user visits Citibank account from China
  2408. # [22:51] <timeless> ... maybe you want to show numbers in Chinese instead of Latin
  2409. # [22:51] <timeless> ... helpful to see scenarios
  2410. # [22:51] <timeless> ... potential problems you anticipate
  2411. # [22:51] <timeless> ... could be really helpful
  2412. # [22:51] * Quits: marcjohlic1 (~marcjohlic@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  2413. # [22:51] <timeless> paulc: is that all the failed items?
  2414. # [22:51] <timeless> darobin: it's all the stuff that got pushed off
  2415. # [22:52] * Quits: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak) (richardschwerdtfeger)
  2416. # [22:52] <timeless> paulc: also missing are items from other groups
  2417. # [22:52] <timeless> ... e.g. whatwg
  2418. # [22:52] <timeless> ... if we're identifying modules
  2419. # [22:52] * Quits: Zefa_ (~Zefa@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  2420. # [22:52] <timeless> ... we should identify what we're working on
  2421. # [22:52] <timeless> ... and what others are working on
  2422. # [22:52] <timeless> darobin: this also includes our worklist
  2423. # [22:53] <timeless> rniwa: if we're modularizing it
  2424. # [22:53] <timeless> ... the newer version of html draft should link to the module
  2425. # [22:53] <timeless> ... otherwise, a person reading html5 spec may not realize it's there
  2426. # [22:53] <timeless> paulc: we haven't solved that problem at all
  2427. # [22:53] <timeless> ... but we recognized it
  2428. # [22:53] <timeless> ... we're thinking that we might use the extra link in html5 spec
  2429. # [22:54] <timeless> ... not current version, but latest version
  2430. # [22:54] <timeless> ... /TR/html could become a link of specs defining sum of html
  2431. # [22:54] <timeless> darobin: as we move stuff to modules
  2432. # [22:54] <timeless> ... if things have modules, we'll cut things out of html5 core
  2433. # [22:54] <timeless> ... we haven't done it, and we might bump into issues, but we have a reasonably good idea
  2434. # [22:54] <timeless> paulc: did i miss anything?
  2435. # [22:55] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
  2436. # [22:55] <timeless> ... any things in whatwg that aren't in 5.1 that aren't in this list?
  2437. # [22:55] <timeless> MikeSmith: yes
  2438. # [22:55] <timeless> ... whatwg spec has WebWorkers, WebSockets, WebStorage
  2439. # [22:56] * Joins: marcjohlic (~AndChat531456@public.cloak)
  2440. # [22:56] <plh> I heard canvasproxy this morning
  2441. # [22:56] <timeless> ... but we've already handled that
  2442. # [22:57] <timeless> darobin: who mentioned <hgroup>?
  2443. # [22:57] <timeless> paulc: i gave up months of my life to <hgroup>
  2444. # [22:57] <timeless> ... i want those back
  2445. # [22:57] * addison your time cheerfully refunded if not completely satisfied
  2446. # [22:58] <timeless> paulc: we need to update the landscape document (from June), then have definitive list -- and provide rationale, difference, additions <- what paulc is looking for.
  2447. # [22:59] <timeless> ... i want to start by looking backwards
  2448. # [22:59] <timeless> ... then turn 180 degrees and start looking forwards
  2449. # [22:59] <timeless> ... get definitive list, publicize it, get people to understand it
  2450. # [22:59] <timeless> ... we need an incredible list
  2451. # [22:59] <timeless> ... modules we'll work on, modules we think others are working on
  2452. # [22:59] <timeless> darobin: <template> is in html5
  2453. # [23:00] <timeless> ... i think we dropped <input inputmode=>
  2454. # [23:00] * Quits: MarkVickers_ (~MarkVickers@public.cloak) ("(null)")
  2455. # [23:00] * Joins: MarkVickers_ (~MarkVickers@public.cloak)
  2456. # [23:00] <timeless> plh: isn't there a spec in DAP?
  2457. # [23:00] <timeless> q?
  2458. # [23:00] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2459. # [23:01] <timeless> plh: Hixie has been trying to solve
  2460. # [23:01] <timeless> ... one is script-dependencies
  2461. # [23:01] <timeless> ... i know Hixie is working on it
  2462. # [23:01] <timeless> ... so that, features that might be added to whatwg spec
  2463. # [23:01] <timeless> ... it's quite complex to solve
  2464. # [23:01] <timeless> ... i don't know where he is at getting to that
  2465. # [23:01] <timeless> ... another I see in WGs is ServiceWorker impact
  2466. # [23:01] <timeless> ... on the architecture
  2467. # [23:01] <darobin> https://whatwg.github.io/loader/
  2468. # [23:01] <timeless> ... we might want to think of impact to whole spec
  2469. # [23:01] <timeless> ... if SW is the future of AppCache
  2470. # [23:02] <timeless> ... then someone needs to look at that
  2471. # [23:02] <timeless> ... another that the WebApps WG is working
  2472. # [23:02] <timeless> ... is WebComponents
  2473. # [23:02] * Joins: hiroto (~hiroto@public.cloak)
  2474. # [23:02] <timeless> ... they're impacting HTML as well
  2475. # [23:03] <rniwa> q+
  2476. # [23:03] * Zakim sees rniwa on the speaker queue
  2477. # [23:03] <timeless> ack rniwa
  2478. # [23:03] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2479. # [23:03] <timeless> rniwa: from WebApps, when we worked on XHR
  2480. # [23:03] <timeless> ... there's a refactor for Fetch
  2481. # [23:03] <timeless> ... perhaps refactor of spec to have a better model for how HTML and DOM interact
  2482. # [23:04] <timeless> ... i think Hixie last year or two years ago added Tasks and MicroTasks
  2483. # [23:04] <timeless> ... so MutationObserver could work w/ those timings
  2484. # [23:04] <timeless> ... so things could be coherent
  2485. # [23:04] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  2486. # [23:04] <timeless> ... Model changes could be important
  2487. # [23:04] <timeless> plh: when we shipped HTML5, there are dark corners
  2488. # [23:05] <timeless> ... one is the Window object
  2489. # [23:05] <timeless> ... i'm not sure we want to take on that dragon
  2490. # [23:05] * darobin jgraham: wonderful chocolate, thanks :)
  2491. # [23:05] <timeless> ... since we're fixing HTML5 spec
  2492. # [23:05] <timeless> rubys: another category, things no one is working on but should be
  2493. # [23:05] * Quits: marcjohlic (~AndChat531456@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  2494. # [23:05] <timeless> paulc: dark corner
  2495. # [23:05] <timeless> ... speced to a level that can be tested
  2496. # [23:05] * darobin HTML — Where The Window is one of the Darkest Corners
  2497. # [23:05] <timeless> ... show certain amount of interop
  2498. # [23:05] <timeless> ... but multiple implementations do things that aren't in the spec/aren't tested
  2499. # [23:05] <timeless> plh: yes
  2500. # [23:06] <timeless> ... or seeing only one or two do, and two others aren't doing it
  2501. # [23:06] <timeless> ... and no convergence in sight
  2502. # [23:06] * Joins: jamesw (~jamesw@public.cloak)
  2503. # [23:06] <timeless> Travis: referring to WebIDL, or things like .name, etc.?
  2504. # [23:06] <timeless> rubys: I remember a specific one
  2505. # [23:06] <timeless> ... loading a document
  2506. # [23:06] <timeless> ... it's true every browser loads a document
  2507. # [23:06] <timeless> [ laughter ]
  2508. # [23:07] <timeless> rubys: spec says how you should do that
  2509. # [23:07] <timeless> ... but browsers don't do that
  2510. # [23:07] <timeless> ... there are observable differences
  2511. # [23:07] * Joins: MarkVickers__ (~MarkVickers@public.cloak)
  2512. # [23:07] <timeless> ... i see heads nodding
  2513. # [23:07] * Quits: MarkVickers_ (~MarkVickers@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  2514. # [23:07] <timeless> paulc: Travis said don't take the bait
  2515. # [23:07] <timeless> ... simon's saying the same thing
  2516. # [23:08] <timeless> ... We have this list
  2517. # [23:08] <timeless> ... darobin made a suggestion this moring
  2518. # [23:08] <timeless> ... we shouldn't just take a butcher knife/cleaver to the spec and break it up
  2519. # [23:08] <timeless> ... but maybe disciplined
  2520. # [23:08] <timeless> darobin: i'd never use disciplined
  2521. # [23:08] <timeless> paulc: ok, ondemand
  2522. # [23:08] <timeless> ... SteveF suggested having a particular area to work on
  2523. # [23:08] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
  2524. # [23:08] <timeless> paulc: so we should show how we'd go about doing this
  2525. # [23:08] <timeless> ... start small
  2526. # [23:08] <timeless> ... set success bar low, overachieve
  2527. # [23:09] <timeless> ... find out what works/doesn't
  2528. # [23:09] * Joins: marcjohlic (~AndChat531456@public.cloak)
  2529. # [23:09] <timeless> ... do one/two
  2530. # [23:09] * Joins: jamesn0000 (~jnurthen@public.cloak)
  2531. # [23:09] <timeless> ... ask the question, how do we do maintenance on that section
  2532. # [23:09] <timeless> ... tantek_ made a strong point
  2533. # [23:09] * Quits: sunghan (~sunghan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  2534. # [23:09] <timeless> ... minor release of 5.0 w/ just errata
  2535. # [23:09] <timeless> ... think about that while doing new work in some of these areas
  2536. # [23:09] <timeless> ... ask some group of people, possibly editors to put together a concrete plan
  2537. # [23:09] <timeless> ... hesitant to say plan
  2538. # [23:10] <timeless> ... what are the next steps?
  2539. # [23:10] <timeless> darobin: i'd like the next steps to be get to work and write specs
  2540. # [23:10] <timeless> ... need for higher level visibility, it ought to come from triage action
  2541. # [23:10] <timeless> ... things we could work on/open sores
  2542. # [23:10] <timeless> ... rather than planning, i'd rather do work writing spec text + publishing
  2543. # [23:10] <timeless> ... i heard SteveF would like to get to work
  2544. # [23:10] <timeless> ... lacking visibility prevented that
  2545. # [23:11] * Parts: ArtB (~abarsto@public.cloak) (ArtB)
  2546. # [23:11] <timeless> paulc: the only part that concerns me is a Q that SteveF asked this morning
  2547. # [23:11] <timeless> ... darobin you said, if you were to start new work, you'd rather do it off CR branch?
  2548. # [23:11] <timeless> darobin: no, i'd rather do that for maintenance
  2549. # [23:11] <timeless> paulc: i'm asking for a plan
  2550. # [23:12] <timeless> ... your action was to triage those 288 bugs
  2551. # [23:12] * jgraham darobin: No problem, well deserved :)
  2552. # [23:12] <timeless> ... landscape document will help
  2553. # [23:12] <timeless> ... some will involve cloning
  2554. # [23:12] <timeless> ... i believe we need to give the consortium members a plan on maintenance
  2555. # [23:12] <timeless> ... and how we're doing After HTML5
  2556. # [23:12] <timeless> ... i don't believe one of the editors w/ a favorite topic here can get started w/o part of the story written
  2557. # [23:13] * Quits: jnurthen (~jnurthen@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2558. # [23:13] <timeless> darobin: i'm not sure if we'll keep master(5.1) alive at all
  2559. # [23:13] <timeless> ... we might not
  2560. # [23:13] <timeless> ... i need to think about it
  2561. # [23:13] <timeless> ... i haven't thought about it at all
  2562. # [23:14] <timeless> ... if we only do new modules in separate documents
  2563. # [23:14] <timeless> ... and only do maintenance on CR branch (which should be renamed)
  2564. # [23:14] <timeless> paulc: i want that written down
  2565. # [23:14] <timeless> darobin: i think we can do them in parallel
  2566. # [23:14] <timeless> paulc: you can do them for some people
  2567. # [23:14] * Joins: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak)
  2568. # [23:14] <timeless> ... but for other people
  2569. # [23:14] <timeless> ... all editors have a high pain threshold
  2570. # [23:15] <timeless> ... you want a bit of experimentation
  2571. # [23:15] <timeless> ... but we want to show progress
  2572. # [23:15] <timeless> ... bottom line is writing spec text
  2573. # [23:15] <timeless> ... if we want other people to do this, they have to understand the system
  2574. # [23:15] <timeless> SteveF: WAI-ARIA section
  2575. # [23:15] <timeless> ... Hixie has said in the past, and quite recently
  2576. # [23:15] <timeless> ... said if someone were to take that, and turn it into a module
  2577. # [23:15] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
  2578. # [23:15] -gitbot:#html-wg- [html] darobin pushed 1 new commit to CR: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/1df5ac60e8c7e7ccfcbe1fce1b5cae074d756675
  2579. # [23:15] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/CR 1df5ac6 Robin Berjon: stray inputmode
  2580. # [23:15] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
  2581. # [23:15] <timeless> ... he'd be happy to point to it
  2582. # [23:15] <timeless> ... he did ask me
  2583. # [23:16] <timeless> ... i'm not sure if he'd be happy w/ it being in W3C
  2584. # [23:16] <timeless> paulc: SteveF, really good characteristic, let's find out
  2585. # [23:16] <timeless> SteveF: MikeSmith , you've seen the expressed sentiment
  2586. # [23:16] <timeless> MikeSmith: no, we've talked about it
  2587. # [23:16] <timeless> ... whatwg is a do-ocracy
  2588. # [23:16] <zcorpan> q+
  2589. # [23:16] * Zakim sees zcorpan on the speaker queue
  2590. # [23:16] <timeless> ... and if you volunteer it, then that's ok
  2591. # [23:17] <timeless> SteveF: and that's one of the sections where people look to W3C
  2592. # [23:17] <timeless> ack zcorpan
  2593. # [23:17] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  2594. # [23:17] <timeless> zcorpan: what you described is something that has happened on a few occasions
  2595. # [23:17] <timeless> ... there are several parts that were in html5, and someone took over it
  2596. # [23:17] <timeless> ... and in several cases it moved to w3c
  2597. # [23:17] * Quits: bobtung (~bobbytung@public.cloak) (bobtung)
  2598. # [23:17] <timeless> ... one is DOM Parsing and Serialization, Travis is editing it
  2599. # [23:17] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  2600. # [23:17] <timeless> ... when it became clear that W3C version is better maintained
  2601. # [23:18] <timeless> ... WHATWG redirected their url to w3c url
  2602. # [23:18] * Quits: Zefa__ (~Zefa@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  2603. # [23:18] <timeless> ... there's precedent to being happy to move stuff to w3c
  2604. # [23:18] <timeless> SteveF: seems like something we're going to do anyway
  2605. # [23:18] <timeless> ... Hixie will point to it
  2606. # [23:18] <darobin> http://domparsing.spec.whatwg.org/ now redirects to W3C DOM-TS
  2607. # [23:18] <timeless> paulc: other examples of it
  2608. # [23:18] <timeless> ... Hixie pointed to zcorpan for the <img> element
  2609. # [23:19] <timeless> zcorpan: also, WebSocket Protocol and WebVTT
  2610. # [23:19] <timeless> ... lots of other things
  2611. # [23:19] <timeless> paulc: looking squarely in the eye of darobin here
  2612. # [23:19] <timeless> ... do you have direction
  2613. # [23:19] <timeless> darobin: i can come back in a year and a half
  2614. # [23:19] <timeless> paulc: when will you convene the editors
  2615. # [23:19] <timeless> rubys: same question to SteveF
  2616. # [23:19] <timeless> paulc: when do we see progress
  2617. # [23:19] <timeless> rubys: SteveF , do you have enough direction
  2618. # [23:20] <timeless> SteveF: yes
  2619. # [23:20] <timeless> ... some advice on splitting out
  2620. # [23:20] <timeless> rubys: ok, but you're not gated on us?
  2621. # [23:20] * Quits: r12a (rishida@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  2622. # [23:20] <timeless> SteveF: partially, if i ensure, if i pull it out, that it won't be consumed (absorbed, taken over) by someone else
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  2625. # [23:21] <timeless> paulc: thank you to our i18n friends
  2626. # [23:21] <timeless> [ Applause ]
  2627. # [23:21] <timeless> paulc: if darobin has enough data
  2628. # [23:21] <timeless> ... we've spent 2 hours on this topic, that's enough for now
  2629. # [23:21] * Quits: rsun (~rsun@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  2630. # [23:21] <timeless> ... we'll reconvene at 4pm w/ PF WG
  2631. # [23:21] <darobin> edoyle, Travis, hober, SteveF: I'd like to take a pic of the editors together after the meeting :)
  2632. # [23:22] <timeless> ... i still haven't received confirmation about 5pm slot
  2633. # [23:22] <timeless> [ Coffee Break until 4pm ]
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  2644. # [23:28] <rubys> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2014Oct/0068.html
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  2676. # [23:56] * Quits: Jingwang_qi (~Jingwang_qi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
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  2681. # [23:59] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  2682. # [23:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
  2683. # [23:59] * Joins: rubys1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
  2684. # [23:59] <timeless> topic: AAA
  2685. # [23:59] * Joins: dauwhe (~dauwhe@public.cloak)
  2686. # Session Close: Fri Oct 31 00:00:00 2014

The end :)