/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2014-10-30 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Oct 30 00:00:00 2014
# Session Ident: #html-wg
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# [16:37] * glazou interested in the following topics: Editing TF, After HTML5 and this afternoon joint meeting ; my only constraint is now: Pagination meeting in DIGIPUB until 11am ; thanks
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# [16:42] * rubys changes topic to 'TPAC 2014'
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# [16:50] <paulc> https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2014-10-Agenda#F2F_Topics
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# [16:53] <timeless> trackbot, start meeting
# [16:53] * trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
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# [16:53] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-irc
# [16:53] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [16:53] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
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# [16:53] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be html_wg
# [16:53] <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()11:30AM scheduled to start 23 minutes ago
# [16:53] <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
# [16:53] <trackbot> Date: 30 October 2014
# [16:53] <timeless> s/Weekly Teleconference/F2F - TPAC2014/
# [16:53] <timeless> scribe: timeless
# [16:53] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [16:53] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
# [16:53] <timeless> agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2014-10-Agenda#F2F_Topics
# [16:54] <timeless> RRSAgent, make logs world
# [16:54] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, timeless
# [16:55] <paulc> F2F topics: https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2014-10-Agenda#F2F_Topics
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# [16:57] <timeless> chair: paulc, rubys
# [16:57] <timeless> s/rubys1/rubys/G
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# [17:01] <timeless> present+ Josh_Soref
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# [17:01] <rubys> present+ Sam_Ruby
# [17:01] <plh> Present+ (plh)
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# [17:01] <plh> Present+ plh
# [17:01] <Cyril> present+ Cyril_Concolato
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# [17:01] <timeless> Present- (plh)
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# [17:07] <glazou> has the meeting started or is it unminuted at this time?
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# [17:07] <timeless> paulc: i'll be like the Baptist minister: "why are there no people in the front three pews?"
# [17:07] <timeless> ... can people move in
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# [17:07] <timeless> ... we have a polycom, on this side
# [17:07] <timeless> ... please move in
# [17:08] <timeless> s/has the meeting started or is it unminuted at this time?//
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# [17:08] * timeless -> glazou : not enough people here to start
# [17:08] * timeless we're waiting for people
# [17:08] * glazou ok thanks timeless
# [17:08] <timeless> paulc: we're waiting for darobin
# [17:09] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [17:09] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
# [17:09] <tantek> good morning #html-wg - lurking here in IRC while in the AB meeting in person a few doors down.
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# [17:10] <timeless> Zakim, call santa-barbara
# [17:10] <Zakim> I am sorry, timeless; I do not know a number for santa-barbara
# [17:10] <timeless> Zakim, call santabarbara
# [17:10] <Zakim> ok, timeless; the call is being made
# [17:10] <Zakim> HTML_WG()11:30AM has now started
# [17:10] <Zakim> +Santabarbara
# [17:10] <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
# [17:10] <Zakim> On the phone I see Santabarbara
# [17:10] <timeless> Zakim, Santabarbara has rubys, paulc, timeless, MikeSmith
# [17:10] <Zakim> +rubys, paulc, timeless, MikeSmith; got it
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# [17:11] <adrianba> Present+ Adrian_Bateman
# [17:11] * timeless other people are present, and we can use "zakim, johny has entered Santabarbara"
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# [17:13] <timeless> Zakim, darobin has entered Santabarbara
# [17:13] <Zakim> +darobin; got it
# [17:13] <timeless> topic: Introduction
# [17:13] <timeless> paulc: good morning
# [17:13] <timeless> ... i'm Paul Cotton, cochair WG
# [17:14] <timeless> MikeSmith: Michael Smith, W3C
# [17:14] <timeless> Josh_Soref: Josh Soref, BlackBerry, Scribe, Observer
# [17:14] <timeless> AAA: aaa
# [17:14] <timeless> BBB: bbb
# [17:14] <timeless> CCC: ccc
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# [17:14] <timeless> DDD: ddd
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# [17:14] <timeless> darobin: Robin Berjon, W3C
# [17:14] <timeless> EEE: eee
# [17:14] <timeless> plh: PLH
# [17:14] <timeless> rubys: Sam Ruby, cochair
# [17:15] <timeless> FFF: fff
# [17:15] <timeless> GGG: ggg
# [17:15] <timeless> HHH: hhh
# [17:15] <timeless> III: iii
# [17:15] <Cyril> s/AAA: aaa/Cyril: Cyril Concolato, Institut Telecom, interested in the Media TF work/
# [17:15] <zcorpan_> s/EEE: eee/zcorpan: Simon Pieters, Opera Software/
# [17:15] <timeless> JJJ: jjj
# [17:15] <timeless> MMM: mmm
# [17:15] <timeless> NNN: nnn
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# [17:16] <timeless> paulc: we're on #html-wg
# [17:16] * SteveF_ is now known as SteveF
# [17:16] <timeless> ... Josh_Soref is scribing, thank you josh
# [17:16] <timeless> Topic: Agenda Bashing
# [17:16] <Santabarbara> https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2014-10-Agenda#F2F_Topics
# [17:16] <kurosawa> s/BBB: bbb/kurosawa: Takeshi Kurosawa, Mitsue-Links/
# [17:16] <timeless> paulc: first item, First Screen Paint in Advance
# [17:17] <timeless> ... discussed in Web Perf WG on Tuesday
# [17:17] * glazou repeats his constraints:
# [17:17] * glazou is interested in the following topics: Editing TF, After HTML5 and this afternoon joint meeting ; my only constraint is now: Pagination meeting in DIGIPUB until 11am ; thanks
# [17:17] <timeless> ... there's an email on public-html
# [17:17] <zcorpan_> <http://www.w3.org/mid/C99B14A348100349A457CD82738FB0AB1BCE0185@M1-MAIL-MBX03.internal.baidu.com>
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# [17:17] <timeless> ... because proponents would like to have a remote participant from China
# [17:17] <timeless> ... and we're 15 hours behind China
# [17:17] <timeless> ... i'm proposing to do that at 5pm today
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# [17:17] <timeless> ... that's 8am tomorrow morning
# [17:17] <timeless> ... we can't do it tomorrow, since that's Saturday in China
# [17:17] <rubys> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2014Oct/0062.html
# [17:17] <timeless> ... that's locked
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# [17:18] <timeless> ... fair amount of discussion in WebApps on Intentions (2 hours)
# [17:18] <timeless> ... i don't know if anyone here wants to discuss that
# [17:18] <timeless> ... Canvas TF, assume we'd want an update
# [17:18] * plh added DOM4 test failures on the agenda
# [17:18] <timeless> ... Media TF requested Friday morning
# [17:18] <timeless> ... i've stretched that through 1pm
# [17:18] <timeless> ... i've talked about starting at 8:30am tomorrow
# [17:18] <timeless> ... Charter schedule tells us we do HTML5.1 and Canvas 2D level 2
# [17:19] <timeless> ... there was at least a breakout session on After HTML5
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# [17:19] <timeless> ... darobin started a discussion on public-html@ probably over a month ago
# [17:19] <timeless> ... chairs suggest doing it first
# [17:19] <timeless> ... i expect we should do it first, and also think about how much time we need for it
# [17:19] <SteveF> +1 to paul on doing first
# [17:19] <timeless> ... i included a link to outstanding HTML5 bugs
# [17:19] <timeless> ... 288 of them
# [17:19] <timeless> ... that's just searching bugzilla for the component
# [17:20] <timeless> ... and it isn't obvious to me that that simple search is even right
# [17:20] <timeless> ... in the press briefings on Monday
# [17:20] <timeless> ... 40,000 emails
# [17:20] <timeless> ... lots of formal objections
# [17:20] <timeless> ... i didn't tell the press about outstanding bugs
# [17:20] <timeless> ... --
# [17:20] <timeless> ... 3 topics on Accessibility
# [17:20] <timeless> ... the first is locked to this morning
# [17:20] <timeless> ... it isn't obvious to me that we'll know how many accessibility people will be here to discuss
# [17:21] <timeless> ... i went to the SVG meeting @9am this morning
# [17:21] <timeless> ... to discuss this first topic after the break
# [17:21] <timeless> ... -- the item about PFWG
# [17:21] <timeless> ... Digital Publishing
# [17:21] <timeless> ... they asked for a slot 4-5pm today
# [17:21] <timeless> ... and we have a DOM4 status update: test failures
# [17:21] <timeless> ... not sure about how long/how much time
# [17:21] <timeless> ... Agenda...
# [17:22] <timeless> ... we're in "Unconference"
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# [17:22] <timeless> ... we have a 10:45-11:15 Coffee break -- technically, coffee is over at 11am
# [17:22] <timeless> ... I put our start inside the window,
# [17:22] <timeless> ... first item, Accessibility topics Part 1 (11:15-1am)
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# [17:23] <timeless> ... slots 3 and 4 after lunch are open
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# [17:23] <timeless> ... Tomorrow
# [17:23] <timeless> ... i've made some modifications already
# [17:23] <timeless> ... I sent Media TF a list of EME bugs
# [17:23] <timeless> ... I've suggested 3 slots for EME
# [17:23] <timeless> ... so many things outstanding
# [17:23] <timeless> ... w/ TAG's input we went from 19 to 26/27 bugs
# [17:23] <timeless> ... and in last two weeks, we've closed only 2
# [17:23] <timeless> ... we need to do MSE CR status/test suite review
# [17:24] <timeless> ... we need to decide
# [17:24] <timeless> ... where to put items
# [17:24] * timeless glazou ?
# [17:24] <timeless> ... anyone object to lockdown?
# [17:24] * glazou yes ?
# [17:24] <timeless> ... plh ?
# [17:24] * timeless repeat your time constraints
# [17:24] <timeless> plh: glazou wanted to be around for HTML5 discussion
# [17:24] <timeless> ... but he's blocked until 1pm
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# [17:24] * glazou busy until 11am , no constraint afterwards, away tomorrow
# [17:24] <timeless> s/1pm/11am/
# [17:25] <timeless> plh: and he's leaving today
# [17:25] <timeless> ... i'm guessing we won't be able to accommodate him
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# [17:25] <timeless> paulc: say we start After HTML5 discussion at 9:30m
# [17:25] <timeless> s/30m/30am/
# [17:25] <timeless> ... would we need a second block?
# [17:25] <timeless> plh: probably
# [17:26] <timeless> paulc: people could discuss over break/lunch
# [17:26] <timeless> ... and we could do a second slot after lunch, and glazou could come to that
# [17:26] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak) ("My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [17:26] * glazou no problem ; timeless minutes are good enough I can follow on IRC but I would really like to attend the Editing TF
# [17:26] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:27] <timeless> paulc: adrianba, is ben still here?
# [17:27] <timeless> adrianba: he's left
# [17:27] <timeless> darobin_: without ben, it will be hard
# [17:27] <timeless> paulc: it's going to be short
# [17:27] <timeless> ... put that item at 2pm for 15 mins today
# [17:27] <timeless> s/darobin_:/darobin:/G
# [17:27] * Joins: AndroUser2 (~iga@public.cloak)
# [17:27] <timeless> paulc: and maybe darobin_ can find the webapps minutes?
# [17:27] * Joins: r12a (rishida@public.cloak)
# [17:28] <timeless> s/ darobin_/ darobin/G
# [17:28] <timeless> paulc: Canvas TF, maybe 15 mins after that?
# [17:28] <timeless> rubys: make sense to slice Accessibility slot to cover Canvas ?
# [17:28] * Quits: MarkVickers (~MarkVickers@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:28] <timeless> paulc: not the first slot
# [17:28] <timeless> ... so add that to the 4-5pm slot today
# [17:29] * Joins: MarkVickers (~MarkVickers@public.cloak)
# [17:29] <timeless> [ hober spills coffee ]
# [17:29] <glazou> Present+ Shane_Stevens
# [17:29] <timeless> hober: i'll remain anonymous for now
# [17:29] * Quits: afz (~afz@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:29] <timeless> paulc: 2pm slot this afternoon, Editing TF
# [17:29] <timeless> ... plh, can we do DOM4 status in <15 mins?
# [17:30] <timeless> darobin_: if we want to discuss bugs, we need more
# [17:30] * Joins: tomoyuki (~tomoyuki@public.cloak)
# [17:30] <timeless> paulc: what about the 45 mins
# [17:30] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [17:30] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak)
# [17:30] <timeless> darobin_: we'd like to do DOM4 tomorrow to have time to run more tests
# [17:30] <timeless> paulc: ok... look down for tomorrow
# [17:30] <timeless> ... paulc ddorwin , MarkS , others, can we start 8:30 tomorrow morning?
# [17:31] * Joins: ShaneM_ (~ShaneM@public.cloak)
# [17:31] <timeless> ... everyone put up their hand if they'll be at tomorrow morning
# [17:31] <timeless> ... noon, 1pm, 2pm, 3pm
# [17:31] <timeless> ... 4pm
# [17:31] <timeless> ... that seems to say we can go pretty deep
# [17:31] <timeless> ... but since ddorwin is editor of EME
# [17:31] * Quits: tomoyuki (~tomoyuki@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [17:31] <timeless> ... and w/ children who want to go out for Halloween
# [17:31] <timeless> ... and people rant about Halloween -- TPAC
# [17:32] <timeless> ... change 09:00 to 8:30
# [17:32] * Quits: ShaneM (~ShaneM@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:32] <timeless> ... ddorwin leaves at 1pm
# [17:32] <timeless> ... do lunch until 2pm
# [17:32] * Joins: tomoyuki (~tomoyuki@public.cloak)
# [17:32] <timeless> ... Session 11 - 2pm-3pm
# [17:32] * Quits: paulc (~paulc@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:32] <timeless> ... that can be DOM4
# [17:32] * Joins: ddorwin1 (~Adium@public.cloak)
# [17:33] <timeless> ... (test failures)
# [17:33] <timeless> ... start EME bugs Part 1 at 8:30am tomorrow
# [17:33] * Quits: Cyril (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [17:33] <timeless> hober: Ted O Connor, Apple
# [17:33] * darobin_ is now known as darobin
# [17:34] * Quits: AndroUser2 (~iga@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [17:35] * Joins: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak)
# [17:35] <timeless> paulc: ddorwin did you confirm that acolwell
# [17:35] <timeless> ... move the MSE CR status to 12:30AM-1PM
# [17:35] * Quits: ddorwin (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:36] <timeless> ... and expand Part to 11:00-12:30PM
# [17:36] <timeless> ... 4 hours of EME tomorrow morning
# [17:36] <timeless> ... break for lunch
# [17:36] <timeless> ... come back for DOM4
# [17:36] <timeless> [ Agenda reloads ]
# [17:36] * timeless ddorwin1 did i spell ac* right?
# [17:37] <timeless> paulc: move back to Day 1
# [17:37] <timeless> ... I think we can shrink Editing TF to 2pm-2:30pm
# [17:37] <timeless> ... Session 4 should be After HTML5 part 2 2:30-3:30pm
# [17:37] <timeless> ... if Editing TF ends early, we'll segway straight to After HTML5
# [17:38] <timeless> s/ddorwin1/ddorwin/G
# [17:38] * Quits: igarashi (~igarashi@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [17:38] <timeless> ... what have we missed?
# [17:38] <timeless> ... Canvas2D level 2 -> after html5
# [17:38] <timeless> .... accessibility part one partly covered
# [17:38] <timeless> s/.../../
# [17:38] <timeless> ... accessibility part 2 isn't covered
# [17:39] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (mjs)
# [17:39] <timeless> ... did we know how we were going to cover this?
# [17:39] <timeless> ... SteveF ?
# [17:39] <timeless> ... name computation, access key, captcha ?
# [17:39] <timeless> ... was I overly zealous by adding this to the wiki?
# [17:39] * Joins: igarashi (~iga@public.cloak)
# [17:39] <timeless> SteveF: I can see, but I have no idea
# [17:39] <timeless> paulc: since we'll see PF at 11:15am today
# [17:40] <timeless> ... we'll have to ask them what they want to do w/ A11Y-part2
# [17:40] * tantek tries to track "After HTML5"
# [17:40] <timeless> ... I know footnotes, roles, validation have to be today
# [17:40] * timeless see agenda#f2f_topics
# [17:40] <timeless> paulc: add A11y-part2 to 30min slot after DOM4 tomorrow
# [17:40] <timeless> ... session 12
# [17:41] <timeless> ... other comments on topics?
# [17:41] * timeless tantek anything you want to raise?
# [17:41] * tantek timeless just trying to keep track of when is "After HTML5".
# [17:41] <timeless> paulc: i suspect tantek is interested in After HTML5 on maintenance
# [17:42] <timeless> hober: AC meeting starts at 11am?
# [17:42] <timeless> [ yes ]
# [17:42] <timeless> Travis: did we want to discuss extension specs?
# [17:42] <timeless> paulc: good point
# [17:42] <timeless> ... Longdesc from A11y
# [17:42] <timeless> ... Canvas if you want to treat it
# [17:42] <timeless> ... EME
# [17:42] * Joins: Yves (ylafon@public.cloak)
# [17:42] <timeless> ... MSE
# [17:42] * plh hober, https://www.w3.org/2014/11/TPAC/ac#thursday
# [17:43] <timeless> ... i can give you an oral report on longdesc
# [17:43] <timeless> ... right now
# [17:43] <timeless> travis: any other submissions to glance over
# [17:43] <timeless> ... we have a wiki of extensions
# [17:43] <rubys> https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2014-10-Agenda#F2F_Topics
# [17:43] <timeless> paulc: move A11y topic to after Coffee (Session 13)
# [17:43] <timeless> ... and do status rundown of all extension specs tomorrow (session 12 before coffee)
# [17:44] <timeless> ... if a11y people don't want to meet tomorrow
# [17:44] <timeless> ... and we don't have overflow topics
# [17:44] <timeless> ... we might adjourn at coffee tomorrow
# [17:44] <timeless> [ Refreshes Agenda ]
# [17:44] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [17:44] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
# [17:44] <timeless> paulc: we could do URL (webapps) in Extensions
# [17:44] <timeless> ... other topics?
# [17:44] <timeless> ... ok, i think we have an agenda
# [17:45] <timeless> Topic: After HTML5
# [17:45] <timeless> paulc: darobin, shall i give you the floor?
# [17:45] <timeless> ... assume 1/2 the people know what you're talking about
# [17:45] <timeless> darobin: hey, we finished HTML5, by the way
# [17:45] <timeless> MikeSmith: Yay
# [17:45] <rubys> http://darobin.github.io/after5/
# [17:45] <timeless> [ Applause ]
# [17:46] <timeless> darobin: what's next, do we go home, and sip margaritas
# [17:46] <timeless> ... or do we keep doing some work
# [17:46] <timeless> ... not sure how much detail i should go
# [17:46] <timeless> ... maybe highlights, and then deeper w/ Qs
# [17:46] <timeless> ... rubys suggested "The best way to get the right answer on the Internet is not to ask a question, it's to post the wrong answer."
# [17:46] <timeless> ... if you don't like it and don't speak up, it will become a decision
# [17:47] <timeless> ... it would be wonderful to increase participation
# [17:47] <timeless> ... the people who built the kittens... namely web developers
# [17:47] <timeless> ... we built the technology
# [17:47] <timeless> ... we should meet somewhere
# [17:47] <timeless> ... editors would agree that the way we managed publication of HTML5 was painful
# [17:47] * Quits: igarashi (~iga@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:47] <timeless> ... maybe learn from world of software development
# [17:47] * Joins: wseltzer (wseltzer@public.cloak)
# [17:47] <timeless> ... Nightly version, stabilize
# [17:47] <timeless> ... features
# [17:48] <timeless> ... try to avoid 120,000 lines of code in a single file
# [17:48] <timeless> ... orthoganalize features to make progress independently
# [17:48] * Joins: xiaoqian (xiaoqian@public.cloak)
# [17:48] <timeless> ... cut spec into smaller parts
# [17:48] <timeless> ... ship them
# [17:48] <timeless> ... focus on the bits
# [17:48] <timeless> ... adopt classic open source process
# [17:48] <timeless> ... pull request
# [17:48] <timeless> ... so people can join in
# [17:48] <timeless> ... not revolution
# [17:48] <timeless> ... try to rationalize
# [17:49] <timeless> ... no vibe of outrage at this point
# [17:49] <timeless> paulc: some discussion here
# [17:49] <timeless> ... WG would have to come to a decision about what it does
# [17:49] <timeless> ... so, start w/ Qs
# [17:49] <timeless> ... 1. what do we do w/ the 300 outstanding bugs?
# [17:49] <timeless> darobin: good Q. triage them
# [17:49] <timeless> ... i suspect quite a few have been fixed, but we haven't closed the bug yet
# [17:49] <timeless> ... figure out which ones can be closed as Errata to HTML5
# [17:49] <timeless> ... small bugs
# [17:50] <timeless> ... maybe a shame to do Errata once we publish REC
# [17:50] <timeless> ... but we have to, it's cycle of life
# [17:50] * Joins: maheshkk (~maheshkk@public.cloak)
# [17:50] <timeless> ... last batch, new work, new modules
# [17:50] <timeless> ... for them, push to modules and focus on that
# [17:50] <timeless> ... in some cases highlight what to work on
# [17:50] <timeless> travis: under previous process
# [17:50] <timeless> ... editors generated new content
# [17:50] <timeless> ... fixed bugs in our component
# [17:50] <timeless> ... we'd have bugs fixed by whatwg component
# [17:50] <timeless> ... a large portion of our job was to synchronize
# [17:51] <timeless> ... from shared source and push into our branch
# [17:51] <timeless> ... under this after5 plan
# [17:51] <timeless> ... what is the plan/philosophy to keep in sync/not-in-sync
# [17:51] <timeless> darobin: you're an editor, what do you think?
# [17:51] <timeless> travis: i'd love to see
# [17:51] <timeless> ... probably not realistic
# [17:51] <timeless> ... i'd love contributors from whatwg to participate in our process
# [17:51] <timeless> ... pull requests
# [17:51] <timeless> ... approved
# [17:52] <timeless> ... short of that, i don't really know
# [17:52] * Joins: paulc (~paulc@public.cloak)
# [17:52] <timeless> ... i know we need to be sensisitive to their desires
# [17:52] <plh> q+
# [17:52] * Zakim sees plh on the speaker queue
# [17:52] <timeless> ... if they're ok w/ pulling relevant content across or not
# [17:52] <MarkVickers> q+
# [17:52] * Zakim sees plh, MarkVickers on the speaker queue
# [17:52] <timeless> ack plh
# [17:52] * Zakim sees MarkVickers on the speaker queue
# [17:52] <timeless> plh: call a cat a cat
# [17:52] <timeless> ... hixie has said he wanted w3c to stop copying his work
# [17:53] <timeless> ... we agreed for the purpose of shipping html5
# [17:53] <timeless> ... we looked at whatwg as submission to html5 spec
# [17:53] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
# [17:53] * Joins: AndroUser2 (~iga@public.cloak)
# [17:53] * Joins: sunghan (~sunghan@public.cloak)
# [17:53] <timeless> ... html5 spec shipped
# [17:53] <timeless> ... what do we do, he wants us to stop copying his work
# [17:53] <timeless> ack MarkVickers
# [17:53] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [17:53] <timeless> MarkVickers: i don't have an answer to that Q
# [17:53] * Joins: Hitoshi_ (~Hitoshi@public.cloak)
# [17:53] <timeless> ... i think, the idea that this would be modular, able to react to submissions
# [17:53] <timeless> ... is a much better way of going forward
# [17:54] <timeless> ... i think a large document approach is difficult for people to track inside/outside
# [17:54] <timeless> ... DataQ is hard
# [17:54] <timeless> ... it doesn't mean anything, quite arbitrary
# [17:54] <rubys> q+
# [17:54] * Zakim sees rubys on the speaker queue
# [17:54] <timeless> ... much better if you could look up where it is based on Tests/Implementation
# [17:54] <paulc> q+
# [17:54] * Zakim sees rubys, paulc on the speaker queue
# [17:54] <timeless> ... i think better by
# [17:54] <timeless> ... whatwg
# [17:54] <timeless> ... I think the whatwg doesn't like the current structure
# [17:54] <timeless> ... they did it to keep in sync
# [17:54] <timeless> ... perhaps we should have a joint conversation
# [17:54] <timeless> ack rubys
# [17:54] * Zakim sees paulc on the speaker queue
# [17:55] <timeless> rubys: comment on the way i work
# [17:55] <timeless> ... i don't work well on abstract things
# [17:55] <timeless> ... you mentioned DataQ
# [17:55] <timeless> ... what needs to be addressed in 3, 10, 12, 15 months
# [17:55] <timeless> ... maybe it makes sense to work on small things
# [17:55] <timeless> ... DataQ
# [17:55] <timeless> ... and we look at a resync w/ whatwg in 2-5 years
# [17:55] <timeless> ack paulc
# [17:55] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [17:55] <timeless> paulc: darobin, your original proposal said break up this 1300 page document into modules
# [17:55] <timeless> ... but as rubys implied, that's fairly abstract
# [17:56] <timeless> ... can we talk about how we'd do that
# [17:56] <timeless> ... rubys took MarkVickers 's suggestion
# [17:56] <timeless> ... all the things we took out of for CR
# [17:56] <timeless> ... "almost there"
# [17:56] <timeless> ... but if we told Editorial staff to break it up into modules, what would you do?
# [17:56] <timeless> darobin: 2 things
# [17:56] <timeless> ... saner: focus on either things we cut out for CR / moved to 5.1
# [17:56] <timeless> ... or things that need updates
# [17:56] <timeless> ... SteveF's Area mapping
# [17:57] <timeless> ... that would make sense to keep progressing
# [17:57] <timeless> SteveF: Areas ...
# [17:57] <timeless> ... i can't remember the number, ARIA native semantic buttons
# [17:57] <timeless> ... map Areas of abstract mapping tool
# [17:57] * timeless ????
# [17:57] <timeless> ... that section
# [17:57] <timeless> ... but there's a number of other sections
# [17:57] <timeless> ... another, the alt= guidance
# [17:57] * Joins: Travis (~Travis@public.cloak)
# [17:58] <timeless> ... in a more general sense, conformance requirements, + authoring advice
# [17:58] <timeless> ... but that covers a lot of the spec in discrete parts
# [17:58] <Travis> q+
# [17:58] * Zakim sees Travis on the speaker queue
# [17:58] <timeless> ... i don't see how that would be excised out
# [17:58] <timeless> paulc: ARIA Roles
# [17:58] <timeless> ... containable
# [17:58] <timeless> s/Areas/ARIA Roles/
# [17:58] <timeless> s/Areas/ARIA Roles/
# [17:58] <timeless> ... 3rd Guidance, spread through document
# [17:58] <timeless> ... alt= guidance
# [17:59] <timeless> ... TextPP has work that's about to be published as a note
# [17:59] <timeless> ... is that containable?
# [17:59] * Joins: astearns (~sid15080@public.cloak)
# [17:59] <timeless> SteveF: yes, that's containable, in a single section
# [17:59] <timeless> paulc: the first two are examples
# [17:59] <timeless> ... modules
# [17:59] <timeless> ... but the third one?
# [17:59] <timeless> darobin: i don't know about it...
# [17:59] <timeless> ... we'd have to discuss
# [17:59] <paulc> q+
# [17:59] * Zakim sees Travis, paulc on the speaker queue
# [17:59] <timeless> ... MikeSmith mentioned interleaving authoring conformance might not be a good idea
# [17:59] <timeless> ... perhaps have a separate document
# [18:00] <timeless> SteveF: i agree
# [18:00] <timeless> ... it's unclear what the best path forward for it is
# [18:00] <timeless> ... but we need to work out that path
# [18:00] <timeless> ack Travis
# [18:00] * Zakim sees paulc on the speaker queue
# [18:00] <timeless> Travis: rubys got me thinking a bit about a more practical route
# [18:00] <timeless> ... thanks rubys
# [18:00] <SteveF> q+
# [18:00] * Zakim sees paulc, SteveF on the speaker queue
# [18:00] <timeless> ... as i look back over those bugs
# [18:00] <timeless> ... i recall one that jumped out at me
# [18:00] <timeless> ... implement a true tri-state checkbox
# [18:00] <timeless> ... not dual indeterminate
# [18:01] <timeless> ... that sounds like a great thing to be as a module
# [18:01] <timeless> ... hook it up
# [18:01] <timeless> ... then i thought, if you do that w/ bugs
# [18:01] <timeless> ... why not review what's in 5.1
# [18:01] <timeless> ... diff against 5.0
# [18:01] <timeless> ... look at things that are unique
# [18:01] <timeless> ... review, see if they could be moved out as modules
# [18:01] <plh> http://www.w3.org/html/landscape/#differences-between-w3c-html-5.1-and-w3c-html-5.0
# [18:01] <timeless> ... not spend the effort to rip the document apart
# [18:01] <timeless> ... but work on the parts we want to progress
# [18:01] <timeless> darobin: i think that makes sense
# [18:01] <timeless> ... we had a session yesterday as a breakout
# [18:02] <timeless> ... rubys suggested a continuously maintained
# [18:02] <timeless> ... 5.0.1 spec
# [18:02] <timeless> ... that shrinks as things move into modules
# [18:02] <timeless> ... we don't need to cut everything out
# [18:02] <plh> q+
# [18:02] <timeless> ... maybe we don't need a new spec for <p/>
# [18:02] <timeless> ... <form>s are a mess
# [18:02] * Zakim sees paulc, SteveF, plh on the speaker queue
# [18:02] <timeless> paulc: are they as bad as <ruby> ?
# [18:02] <timeless> ... scale of 1..<ruby>, how bad are <form>s?
# [18:02] <timeless> darobin: <form>s are bad
# [18:02] <timeless> ... most new types are unusable
# [18:03] <timeless> ... developers scream, like <select multiple>
# [18:03] <timeless> ack paulc
# [18:03] * Zakim sees SteveF, plh on the speaker queue
# [18:03] <timeless> paulc: i wanted to ask question
# [18:03] <timeless> ... stemming from Travis's Q about linkage to WHATWG
# [18:03] <timeless> ... but link to Qs here
# [18:03] <timeless> ... we have ~300 bugs
# [18:03] <timeless> ... looking at those
# [18:03] <darobin> q+
# [18:03] * Zakim sees SteveF, plh, darobin on the speaker queue
# [18:03] <timeless> ... talked about modularization
# [18:03] <timeless> ... where we want to do work/where there is work
# [18:03] <timeless> ... Q-- Hixie said don't copy my work
# [18:04] <timeless> ... what items are different in WHATWG spec
# [18:04] <timeless> ... than 5.0/5.1ED ?
# [18:04] <plh> http://www.w3.org/html/landscape/#differences-between-whatwg-html-ls-and-w3c-html-5.1
# [18:04] <timeless> ... enumerate places where we could find modules
# [18:04] <timeless> ... what are similar things in WHATWG that Hixie wouldn't want us to copy?
# [18:04] <rubys> http://www.w3.org/html/landscape/
# [18:04] <timeless> Travis: looking at this document would help
# [18:04] <timeless> ... canvas-proxy
# [18:04] <timeless> ... move canvas controller to WebWorker
# [18:05] <timeless> ... and drive from off thread
# [18:05] <timeless> darobin: we have that in 5.1
# [18:05] <timeless> Travis: but what is in WHATWG that aren't in 5.1?
# [18:05] <timeless> ... 3 months of work
# [18:05] <timeless> darobin: mostly bug fixes
# [18:05] <plh> q-
# [18:05] * Zakim sees SteveF, darobin on the speaker queue
# [18:05] <timeless> paulc: so, bug fixes
# [18:05] <timeless> ... some might correlate w/ 288 bugs we have
# [18:05] <timeless> ... some might not correlate, things that Hixie has already fixed
# [18:06] <timeless> ... Hixie might have done new novel work on things in 5.1 or not
# [18:06] <timeless> ... maybe he moved canvas-proxy on substantially?
# [18:06] * Quits: ShaneM_ (~ShaneM@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:06] <timeless> ... then decide "do we want to work on canvas-proxy, or not?"
# [18:06] * Joins: Cyril (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [18:06] <timeless> Travis: do we grandfather in things in 5.1 as "already copied?"
# [18:06] <Cyril> RRSAgent, pointer
# [18:06] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-irc#T17-06-38
# [18:06] <timeless> paulc: something WG has to decide, valid Q
# [18:06] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [18:06] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
# [18:06] <MarkVickers> q+
# [18:06] * Zakim sees SteveF, darobin, MarkVickers on the speaker queue
# [18:07] <timeless> paulc: specs is like any software engineering project, we have to triage
# [18:07] <timeless> rubys: we can walk through doc, or after 5
# [18:07] <timeless> paulc: can you show me in Landscape
# [18:07] <timeless> plh: click "2."
# [18:07] <timeless> rubys: first bullet isn't workitem, second isn't, third isn't, fourth isn't
# [18:07] <timeless> ... fifth is
# [18:07] <timeless> ... "Different ARIA role constraints"
# [18:08] <timeless> s/.../paulc:/
# [18:08] <timeless> ... but SteveF already mentioned
# [18:08] <timeless> [ Looser ]
# [18:08] <timeless> darobin: not a work item
# [18:08] <timeless> ... it's done
# [18:08] <timeless> paulc: longdesc, we know what's happening, extension spec
# [18:08] <timeless> ... tables, not a work item
# [18:08] <timeless> ... <main> element
# [18:08] <timeless> ... - not a workitem
# [18:09] <timeless> darobin: table-border, please let us not work on that
# [18:09] <timeless> paulc: chairs would agree
# [18:09] <timeless> ... SHOULD on <h..>
# [18:09] <timeless> darobin: work item
# [18:09] <timeless> ... but...
# [18:09] * Quits: panzana` (~panzana@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:09] <timeless> ... a lot of those are authoring document conformance things
# [18:09] <timeless> ... perhaps as a module
# [18:09] * Joins: panzana` (~panzana@public.cloak)
# [18:09] <timeless> paulc: task to put in front of ourselves
# [18:09] <tantek> hello #html-wg - sitting in second U-ring behind rubys
# [18:09] <timeless> ... take this content, have WG decide work on/isn't
# [18:10] <timeless> rubys: precursor, i think this list needs an update
# [18:10] <timeless> ... last updated June
# [18:10] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak) (tantek)
# [18:10] <timeless> ... update list, triage list, publish
# [18:10] <timeless> q?
# [18:10] * Zakim sees SteveF, darobin, MarkVickers on the speaker queue
# [18:10] <timeless> ack SteveF
# [18:10] * Zakim sees darobin, MarkVickers on the speaker queue
# [18:10] <timeless> SteveF: starting to get somewhat of a clearer idea
# [18:10] <darobin> ACTION: Robin to triage new WHATWG updates, HTML bugs, Landscape document in order to list priority content for modules
# [18:10] * trackbot is creating a new ACTION.
# [18:10] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [18:10] <trackbot> Created ACTION-249 - Triage new whatwg updates, html bugs, landscape document in order to list priority content for modules [on Robin Berjon - due 2014-11-06].
# [18:10] <timeless> ... not really
# [18:10] <timeless> ... we have shipped HTML5.0
# [18:10] <timeless> ... we'll work on that
# [18:10] <timeless> ... in Errata
# [18:11] <timeless> ... that just includes non-normative bug fixes?
# [18:11] * Joins: Hitoshi__ (~Hitoshi@public.cloak)
# [18:11] <timeless> rubys: everything's open for discussion
# [18:11] <timeless> ... you could make that as a proposal
# [18:11] <timeless> SteveF: we've got that document, do we maintain it
# [18:11] <timeless> ... or let it go?
# [18:11] <timeless> paulc: i'll answer that (maybe w3meme)
# [18:11] <timeless> ... Tuesday memed speaking for directory
# [18:11] <timeless> ... now memed for CEO?
# [18:12] <timeless> ... at AC meeting he said RRR
# [18:12] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [18:12] <timeless> ... how we do that, it's up to us
# [18:12] <timeless> s/RRR/how we maintain stuff/
# [18:12] * Joins: hiroto (~hiroto@public.cloak)
# [18:12] * Joins: taku (~taku@public.cloak)
# [18:12] <timeless> SteveF: part of maintenance is to continue to pull in fixes from whatwg source
# [18:12] * Quits: Hitoshi_ (~Hitoshi@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:12] <timeless> ... not features. but bug fixes
# [18:12] <timeless> paulc: rubys can you find the text from Process document?
# [18:12] * Joins: ShaneM (~ShaneM@public.cloak)
# [18:13] <tantek> hello #html-wg - sitting in second U-ring behind rubys
# [18:13] <timeless> timeless: the Process document has an inconsistent set of topics
# [18:13] <timeless> ... for what updates are
# [18:13] <timeless> ... (Errata)
# [18:14] <timeless> ... there's work for Process 2015/2016
# [18:14] <timeless> ... but you're on an older Process
# [18:14] <timeless> SteveF: we have 5.0, and 5.1
# [18:14] * Joins: khoya (~khoya@public.cloak)
# [18:14] <timeless> ... we have a plan to ship 5.1 at some point
# [18:14] <timeless> ... why not see 5.1 as maintenance of 5.0
# [18:14] <tantek> q?
# [18:14] * Zakim sees darobin, MarkVickers on the speaker queue
# [18:14] <timeless> ... pull things out of 5.1 as modules
# [18:14] <paulc> q+
# [18:14] * Zakim sees darobin, MarkVickers, paulc on the speaker queue
# [18:14] <timeless> ... but continue to keep stuff current in 5.1
# [18:14] <timeless> ... that's currently in there
# [18:14] <timeless> ... but new work independently
# [18:15] <timeless> ack darobin
# [18:15] * Zakim sees MarkVickers, paulc on the speaker queue
# [18:15] <timeless> darobin: several aspects
# [18:15] <timeless> ... i would not want to work off current 5.1 document
# [18:15] <timeless> ... if we can avoid it
# [18:15] <timeless> ... it has a million things we want to split out as modules
# [18:15] <tantek> q+ to formally propose "maintenance" release should only be bug fixes, and thus a 5.0.1. Anything anyone wants to keep in 5.1 which is new from 5.0 should be split out as modules.
# [18:15] * Zakim sees MarkVickers, paulc, tantek on the speaker queue
# [18:15] * Joins: sunghan_ (~sunghan@public.cloak)
# [18:15] <timeless> ... a million things that will never be implemented
# [18:15] <timeless> ... i think it'd be saner to work from CR branch
# [18:15] <timeless> ... re: what we take in as Errata
# [18:15] <timeless> ... up to whoever does the work, how deep we go
# [18:16] <timeless> ... suggest we not spend too much time on non-normative
# [18:16] <timeless> ... focus on solid bugs
# [18:16] <tantek> +1 on focus on *normative* maintenance
# [18:16] <timeless> ... make Errata for them and release that
# [18:16] <timeless> ... make job simpler by dropping entire Canvas from source document
# [18:16] <timeless> ... we aren't producing that, Canvas TF doesn't generate from that branch anyway
# [18:16] <timeless> ... and similar
# [18:16] <timeless> ... -- one thing i've been keeping in mind
# [18:16] * Joins: Zefa (~Zefa@public.cloak)
# [18:16] <tantek> +1 to darobin points about 5.1 has too much in it. Saner to work from CR branch.
# [18:17] <timeless> ... we can no longer merge from WHATWG/master -- too far away
# [18:17] <timeless> ... but might want to be notified about bug fixes
# [18:17] <timeless> ... various ways to be notified
# [18:17] <timeless> ... we can apply a similar fix
# [18:17] <timeless> rubys: several people nodded
# [18:17] <timeless> darobin: editors nodding (maybe falling asleep?)
# [18:17] <timeless> ack MarkVickers
# [18:17] * Zakim sees paulc, tantek on the speaker queue
# [18:17] <tantek> strong agreement with darobin's proposals
# [18:17] <timeless> MarkVickers: "do not copy whatwg work" comment concerns me
# [18:17] <rubys> q+
# [18:17] * Zakim sees paulc, tantek, rubys on the speaker queue
# [18:17] <timeless> ... i see great opportunity
# [18:18] <timeless> ... but at some point, things have to come together as one spec
# [18:18] <timeless> ... in order to have one web
# [18:18] <timeless> ... it seems we have two specs, and we're splitting the web
# [18:18] <timeless> ... what i saw in what darobin wrote
# [18:18] <timeless> ... is very small modules
# [18:18] <timeless> ... software depo level, each numbered section is a small file
# [18:18] <timeless> ... check out 4.7.10.2
# [18:18] <timeless> ... add a new file for new number representing a new project
# [18:19] <timeless> ... instead saying what we think is 5.1
# [18:19] <timeless> ... and working
# [18:19] <timeless> ... instead have a clock-based
# [18:19] <timeless> ... what things have reached agreed upon threshold
# [18:19] <timeless> ... say 2 implementations
# [18:19] <timeless> ... say "April 1" release
# [18:19] <timeless> ... is those things
# [18:19] <paulc> q-
# [18:19] * Zakim sees tantek, rubys on the speaker queue
# [18:19] <paulc> q+
# [18:19] * Zakim sees tantek, rubys, paulc on the speaker queue
# [18:19] <timeless> ... have those things w/ same force of IP commitments
# [18:19] <darobin> q+
# [18:19] * Zakim sees tantek, rubys, paulc, darobin on the speaker queue
# [18:19] <timeless> ... just more clock driven
# [18:19] * Joins: ArtB (~abarsto@public.cloak)
# [18:19] <timeless> ... each piece working independently
# [18:19] <timeless> ... some work by whatwg, some by groups in w3c
# [18:20] <SteveF> q+
# [18:20] * Zakim sees tantek, rubys, paulc, darobin, SteveF on the speaker queue
# [18:20] <timeless> ... but that would imply that they'd come back together as a document
# [18:20] <timeless> q?
# [18:20] * Zakim sees tantek, rubys, paulc, darobin, SteveF on the speaker queue
# [18:20] <timeless> ack tantek
# [18:20] <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to formally propose "maintenance" release should only be bug fixes, and thus a 5.0.1. Anything anyone wants to keep in 5.1 which is new from 5.0 should be split
# [18:20] * Joins: jerome (~jerome@public.cloak)
# [18:20] <Zakim> ... out as modules.
# [18:20] * Zakim sees rubys, paulc, darobin, SteveF on the speaker queue
# [18:20] <timeless> tantek: Tantek Celik, Mozilla
# [18:20] <timeless> ... darobin covered what i wanted to say
# [18:20] <timeless> ... very reasonable
# [18:20] <timeless> ... maybe i should go back to AB meeting
# [18:20] <timeless> ... which is simultaneously discussing Errata Process
# [18:20] <timeless> ... apparent size
# [18:21] <timeless> darobin: Differences or Landscape?
# [18:21] <timeless> tantek: yes, Landscape
# [18:21] <timeless> [ Projects Landscape ]
# [18:21] <timeless> tantek: the more that can be shrunk by whatever means
# [18:21] <timeless> ... normative differences/purely informative differences
# [18:21] <timeless> ... the better
# [18:21] <timeless> ... look forward to features being added to HTML Spec via Extension
# [18:21] <timeless> ... preferably CC-by
# [18:21] <timeless> darobin: we can
# [18:21] <timeless> tantek: i'm expressing my preference
# [18:21] <timeless> q?
# [18:21] * Zakim sees rubys, paulc, darobin, SteveF on the speaker queue
# [18:22] <tantek> given that CC-by is the most liberal option we have
# [18:22] <timeless> ack rubys
# [18:22] * Zakim sees paulc, darobin, SteveF on the speaker queue
# [18:22] <timeless> rubys: we got a request to not-copy
# [18:22] <timeless> ... we have content under CC-0
# [18:22] <timeless> ... people are working out if that makes sense or not
# [18:22] <timeless> ... like people here
# [18:22] <timeless> ... if someone says "we should copy" "we should not copy"
# [18:22] <tantek> obviously I'd rather have CC0 but we're not there yet, and I'm actively working on trying to make that a possibility at the AB level
# [18:22] <timeless> MarkVickers: i thought i was making concrete proposal
# [18:22] <timeless> ... if things are in small enough units
# [18:23] <timeless> ... we'd hopefully get to the point where people are two different groups working on checkouts from the same github
# [18:23] <timeless> ... and at some point it would be copied, and brought back in
# [18:23] <SteveF> +1 to tantek on CCO
# [18:23] <timeless> ... you'd have one build at the end
# [18:23] <timeless> rubys: thanks, you said work together and copy
# [18:23] <tantek> Thank you SteveF - that's useful input for the AB.
# [18:23] <timeless> ... another was work together and point
# [18:23] * timeless SteveF CCO or CC0 ??
# [18:23] <timeless> MarkVickers: work together
# [18:23] <tantek> s/CCO/CC0/g
# [18:24] <timeless> ... at some point we want to be able to say "this is work recommended by W3C as HTML"
# [18:24] <timeless> ... implementer or using it
# [18:24] <timeless> ... whether you point or not
# [18:24] <SteveF> whatever tantek was referring to :-)
# [18:24] <timeless> ... the user needs the output
# [18:24] <timeless> MarkVickers: all documents should be together at one place
# [18:24] <timeless> ... i don't want confusion
# [18:24] <paulc> Paul wants to point to http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/
# [18:24] <timeless> rubys: thanks
# [18:24] <timeless> q?
# [18:24] * Zakim sees paulc, darobin, SteveF on the speaker queue
# [18:24] <timeless> ack paulc
# [18:24] * Zakim sees darobin, SteveF on the speaker queue
# [18:25] <timeless> [ Projects TR/html5 ]
# [18:25] <timeless> paulc: plh and i discussed this before the meeting
# [18:25] <timeless> ... we have dated version, latest version
# [18:25] <timeless> ... latest version of html
# [18:25] <timeless> ... different from normal recs
# [18:25] <timeless> ... 1) we aren't the only WG working on Extensions to HTML5
# [18:25] <timeless> ... we have EME, MSE, longdesc, ...
# [18:25] <timeless> ... but WebPerf WG is doing extensions
# [18:26] <timeless> ... much of WebApps at API level are Extensions
# [18:26] <timeless> ... one thing we could do
# [18:26] <timeless> ... click on "latest version of html"
# [18:26] <timeless> ... instead of a single document
# [18:26] <timeless> ... take you to a page listing various modules
# [18:26] <plh> -q?
# [18:26] * Zakim sees darobin, SteveF on the speaker queue
# [18:26] <timeless> ... both from HTML WG and other placs
# [18:26] <timeless> s/placs/places/
# [18:26] <Cyril> +1, that's what CSS does
# [18:26] <timeless> ... I have a terrible time speaking of what HTML5 is
# [18:26] <timeless> ... people think it's the Web Platform
# [18:26] <timeless> darobin: lost battle
# [18:26] <timeless> ... we should admit defeat
# [18:27] <timeless> paulc: thank you
# [18:27] <timeless> ... maybe HTML could take you to a list of modules, extension specs, whatever you'd want to work to
# [18:27] <glazou> glazou: as I said yesterday, you won’t change journalists on that
# [18:27] <timeless> ... could even point to things that whatwg were working on that we agreed that we weren't working on
# [18:27] <Cyril> q+
# [18:27] * Zakim sees darobin, SteveF, Cyril on the speaker queue
# [18:27] <timeless> ... maybe the problem is that we don't have a definitive list
# [18:27] <timeless> ... to define what we're working on/what they're working on
# [18:27] <timeless> ... it's an idea that plh and I just talked about
# [18:28] <timeless> ... but maybe plh should speak to this
# [18:28] <timeless> ... maybe it was an insurance policy
# [18:28] <timeless> plh: 2 years ago, one of the problems i was facing
# [18:28] <timeless> ... was "what does CSS3 mean?"
# [18:28] <timeless> ... my boss, jeff came in and said
# [18:28] <timeless> ... "i've been talking about CSS3 for a long time, but where is our CSS3 spec?"
# [18:28] * glazou laughs
# [18:28] <timeless> ... we don't have a CSS3 spec
# [18:28] <tantek> I note that glazou doesn't appear to be in the room. ;)
# [18:28] <timeless> ... and CSS WG knows what they're talking about
# [18:29] <timeless> ... problem is that the web doesn't understand
# [18:29] * glazou tantek no in digipub, following htmlwg on irc only
# [18:29] <timeless> ... If i said "CSS3 doesn't exist", people would look at me and say "what do you mean?"
# [18:29] * glazou notes tantek should have left me his AB seat since he’s not there either ;-)
# [18:29] <timeless> ... HTML, I thought, we'll have the same problem down the road
# [18:29] * tantek glazou no problem, I'll try to represent not too inaccurately :)
# [18:29] <timeless> ... i thought if we had a thing
# [18:29] <timeless> ... CSS had a CSS snapshot 2007, 2010
# [18:29] <timeless> ... it didn't really work
# [18:29] <timeless> ... not really interested in publishing a new snapshot
# [18:30] <timeless> ... I did Extensible Web Summit in September
# [18:30] <timeless> ... one of CSS Editors said
# [18:30] * glazou snapshots are too expensive to produce and maintain
# [18:30] <timeless> ... I'd take the HTML spec and modularize
# [18:30] <timeless> ... and every time we updated a module
# [18:30] <timeless> ... i'd
# [18:30] <timeless> ... say "this is the module they should look at"
# [18:30] <timeless> ... that's why i said to darobin
# [18:30] <timeless> ... i don't know what it would look like
# [18:30] * Quits: Ruinan (~Ruinan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:30] <timeless> ... but let's have a link
# [18:31] <timeless> ... and figure out what to put on that page later on
# [18:31] * Joins: min (~min@public.cloak)
# [18:31] <timeless> ... i don't think it will point you to a W3C REC
# [18:31] <timeless> ... but to a ToC
# [18:31] <paulc> Response to plh: http://www.w3.org/TR/
# [18:31] <timeless> ... that tells you "this is what we know about HTML"
# [18:31] <timeless> q?
# [18:31] * Zakim sees darobin, SteveF, Cyril on the speaker queue
# [18:31] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [18:31] <timeless> paulc: click on link to /TR/
# [18:31] <timeless> [ Projects /TR/ ]
# [18:31] * Quits: tomoyuki (~tomoyuki@public.cloak) (tomoyuki)
# [18:31] <timeless> paulc: this page,
# [18:31] <timeless> ... was done at the last time the /TR/ page was reoganized
# [18:31] * Joins: tomoyuki (~tomoyuki@public.cloak)
# [18:31] <timeless> ... and click on "HTML"
# [18:31] <timeless> ... you get this page
# [18:32] <timeless> rubys: some relevant, some not as much
# [18:32] <timeless> paulc: curious how this is similar/different to what you're proposing
# [18:32] <timeless> ... notice it's just a #frag off /TR/
# [18:32] <timeless> [ /TR/#tr_HTML ]
# [18:32] <timeless> plh: different
# [18:32] <timeless> ... i'm proposing a ToC
# [18:32] <timeless> ... some [here] are relevant, some are not
# [18:32] <rubys> q+
# [18:32] * Zakim sees darobin, SteveF, Cyril, rubys on the speaker queue
# [18:32] <timeless> ... if the group has one answer/how to have the best answer possible
# [18:32] <tantek> paulc: shows http://www.w3.org/TR/#tr_HTML
# [18:32] <timeless> ... this group should be the best answer
# [18:33] <timeless> ... and if someone asks what should it be
# [18:33] <timeless> paulc: if you click on CSS
# [18:33] <rubys> q?
# [18:33] * Zakim sees darobin, SteveF, Cyril, rubys on the speaker queue
# [18:33] <timeless> ... that wasn't the answer to jeff's Q
# [18:33] <timeless> paulc: this was a reengineering of /TR/
# [18:33] <timeless> ... i tried to keep it up to date, it's a pain
# [18:33] <timeless> ack darobin
# [18:33] * Zakim sees SteveF, Cyril, rubys on the speaker queue
# [18:33] <timeless> darobin: back to MarkVickers 's point
# [18:33] <timeless> ... you mentioned collaboration
# [18:33] <timeless> ... and i'm in favor
# [18:33] <timeless> ... but collaboration takes two sides
# [18:34] <timeless> ... we can't say "hey, let's collaborate"
# [18:34] <tantek> would it be useful to comment on evolution of notions of CSS3 -> CSS Module Level 3 -> CSS Module Level 1 ?
# [18:34] <timeless> ... my thinking is
# [18:34] <timeless> ... let's do this right
# [18:34] <timeless> ... if collaboration works, great
# [18:34] <timeless> ... if not, at least, we're doing things the way it should be done
# [18:34] <timeless> ... and maybe people will say "hey, they're doing the right thing"
# [18:34] <timeless> ... "and we should talk"
# [18:34] <timeless> ... hopefully we can remove as much friction as possible
# [18:34] <timeless> ... but it isn't something we can decree by fiat
# [18:35] <timeless> ... small modules, clock-based, i like both
# [18:35] <timeless> ... reluctant to split spec into lots of small modules
# [18:35] <timeless> ... no matter how good it would be in long term
# [18:35] <timeless> ... i'd rather do this organically
# [18:35] <timeless> ... anytime someone wants to work on the spec
# [18:35] <timeless> ... "sure, let me extract it, fork it, submit patches"
# [18:35] <timeless> ... some sections, may never touch
# [18:35] <timeless> ... <p>, <i>, <b>, <div>
# [18:35] <timeless> [ grimmaces ]
# [18:35] <timeless> [ laughter ]
# [18:36] <timeless> darobin: some will never be touched any-time soon
# [18:36] <timeless> ... clock based
# [18:36] <timeless> ... ties into One Web
# [18:36] * Travis suggests re-mapping <p> to mean "party" element.
# [18:36] <timeless> ... another fundamental is One-Test-Suite
# [18:36] <timeless> s/grimmaces/grimaces/
# [18:36] <timeless> ... if you have two specs, how do you ...
# [18:36] <timeless> ... but Test-Suite is closer to metal
# [18:36] <timeless> ... informs you how implementers are making progres
# [18:36] <timeless> s/res/ress/
# [18:37] <timeless> ... we've been pretty good at managing our test suite
# [18:37] <timeless> ... Test group pretty impressive given its utter lack of resources
# [18:37] <timeless> ... every year, run test suite, whatever passes sufficiently
# [18:37] <tantek> I see glazou running through the room!
# [18:37] <timeless> ... say ~90% of very complete test suite
# [18:37] <timeless> ... anything passes test, goes to REC
# [18:37] * Quits: min (~min@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [18:37] <timeless> ... do every year
# [18:37] <MarkVickers> +1
# [18:37] <timeless> ... instead of multi-year plans
# [18:37] <rubys> q+ glazou
# [18:37] * Zakim sees SteveF, Cyril, rubys, glazou on the speaker queue
# [18:37] <timeless> ... and specs that takes years to go to rec
# [18:37] * Joins: min (~min@public.cloak)
# [18:37] <timeless> ack SteveF
# [18:37] * Zakim sees Cyril, rubys, glazou on the speaker queue
# [18:38] <timeless> SteveF: ok
# [18:38] <timeless> ... i like modularization
# [18:38] <timeless> ... i hate multiple amounts of boilerplate
# [18:38] <timeless> ... boilerplate **** that i don't want to read
# [18:38] <timeless> ... harder to understand
# [18:38] <timeless> ... using new features of HTML5/5.0
# [18:38] <timeless> ... <details>
# [18:38] * Joins: kurosawa_ (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [18:38] <timeless> ... to make spec more usable
# [18:38] <timeless> ... not hugely popular
# [18:38] <timeless> ... an important audience of spec
# [18:38] <timeless> ... is developer audience
# [18:39] <timeless> ... people who use it
# [18:39] <timeless> ... primary audience appears to be browser vendors
# [18:39] <paulc> q?
# [18:39] * Zakim sees Cyril, rubys, glazou on the speaker queue
# [18:39] <timeless> ... but everyone keeps telling us that they don't look at W3C spec
# [18:39] <timeless> ... if they don't
# [18:39] <MikeSmith> q?
# [18:39] * Zakim sees Cyril, rubys, glazou on the speaker queue
# [18:39] <timeless> ... (and it's not exactly true, it depends on which bits)
# [18:39] <timeless> ... if that's a separate audience, we should focus on making the spec good for the other audience
# [18:39] <timeless> ... other point
# [18:39] * Joins: IsabelleH (~IsabelleH@public.cloak)
# [18:39] <timeless> ... idea of collaboration
# [18:39] <timeless> ... i don't see any collaboration
# [18:40] <timeless> ... i'd like to have it in the future
# [18:40] <timeless> ... but as long as we continue to work on HTML, i see the possibility is very small
# [18:40] <timeless> ... i'd like to work on it
# [18:40] <timeless> ... i see lots of people
# [18:40] <timeless> ... but we're not very engaging
# [18:40] <timeless> ... there needs to be some engaging
# [18:40] <timeless> ... i've tried many times
# [18:40] <timeless> ... but we need to continue
# [18:40] <timeless> ... we need to work something out
# [18:40] <timeless> ... we can't pretend things are working, because they're not
# [18:40] <timeless> ack Cyril
# [18:40] * Zakim sees rubys, glazou on the speaker queue
# [18:41] <timeless> Cyril: i like the idea of /TR/html/ that points to modules/extensions
# [18:41] <timeless> ... TT WG is considering the same for TTML
# [18:41] <timeless> ... should be clear what "published versions" means
# [18:41] <timeless> ... because it isn't clear to public what it means
# [18:41] <timeless> ... might be helpful to clarify "latest published, latest version"
# [18:41] <timeless> q?
# [18:41] * Zakim sees rubys, glazou on the speaker queue
# [18:41] <timeless> ack rubys
# [18:41] * Zakim sees glazou on the speaker queue
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# [18:42] <timeless> rubys: 1) we talked about a new landing for /TR/html/
# [18:42] <timeless> ... i didn't hear talk about versioning of that
# [18:42] <timeless> ... would we version it?
# [18:42] * Quits: ShaneM (~ShaneM@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:42] <timeless> ... last year, this year
# [18:42] <timeless> ... process for updating it?
# [18:42] <timeless> ... does WG come to consensus
# [18:42] <timeless> ... point to stuff outside WG
# [18:42] <timeless> ... 2) darobin, SteveF
# [18:42] <timeless> ... collaboration
# [18:42] <timeless> ... we need to figure out what we want to do
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# [18:43] * darobin nice t-shirt hober :)
# [18:43] <timeless> ... SteveF pointed out difficulties w/ working w/ whatwg
# [18:43] * Quits: tomoyuki (~tomoyuki@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:43] <timeless> ... I work in IETF
# [18:43] * Quits: kurosawa (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [18:43] <timeless> ... i'm trying w/ URL
# [18:43] * kurosawa_ is now known as kurosawa
# [18:43] <timeless> ... i'm going where work is
# [18:43] <timeless> ... in theory it's open
# [18:43] <timeless> ... if i can disprove that, it's useful knowledge
# [18:43] <timeless> ... if it's open, we'll learn from that
# [18:44] * pdr__ is now known as pdr
# [18:44] <timeless> glazou: Daniel Glazman, Cochair CSS WG
# [18:44] <tantek> publishing snapshots and maintaining that was too hard
# [18:44] <timeless> ... we tried publishing CSS snapshot page
# [18:44] <timeless> ... via REC track
# [18:44] <timeless> ... was too hard
# [18:44] <tantek> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/current-work is now maintained semi-manually
# [18:44] <timeless> ... looking at dev.w3.org wgs
# [18:44] <timeless> ... to help doing that
# [18:44] <timeless> ... there are new publishing tools that whatwg is preparing
# [18:44] <timeless> ... plh mentioned single click to publish
# [18:45] <timeless> ... to publish WD
# [18:45] <timeless> ... in CSSWG we decided to base on WG consensus
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# [18:45] <timeless> ... some Editors in the Group wanted to be able to publish at their own discretion
# [18:45] <timeless> ... there's some reluctance in the WG
# [18:45] <timeless> ... we prefer consensus
# [18:45] <timeless> ... discussion, review if needed, then reply
# [18:45] <timeless> ... 2) testsuites mentioned by darobin
# [18:45] <timeless> ... we have 60 docs on the radar in CSS WG
# [18:45] <timeless> ... that's a lot
# [18:45] <timeless> ... it's really good, not everyone is interested in every part
# [18:46] <timeless> ... each implementer is different
# [18:46] <timeless> ... some aren't browser vendors
# [18:46] <timeless> ... there's a batch-processor vendor
# [18:46] <timeless> ... they don't care about animations
# [18:46] <timeless> ... that modularization implies specifilization
# [18:46] * timeless ???
# [18:46] <timeless> ... test suites are per spec
# [18:46] <timeless> ... we don't have a single suite
# [18:46] <timeless> ... darobin i don't think what you want is doable because of collisions
# [18:47] <timeless> ... one single light spec about replaced-elements in html
# [18:47] <timeless> ... don't care about collisions
# [18:47] <timeless> ... because otherwise, you'll have ETA of 2032
# [18:47] <timeless> ... it is not feasibile
# [18:47] <timeless> ... 3) fast track process in CSSWG
# [18:47] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (mjs)
# [18:47] <tantek> replaced elements and not care about collisions? what about <input type=image> ?
# [18:47] <timeless> ... when we have a module that does not progress fast enough
# [18:47] <timeless> ... but one or two features in the module are evolving faster than the rest
# [18:47] <timeless> ... w/ consensus of the group, that can be extracted from the document
# [18:47] <timeless> ... fast track that
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# [18:48] <timeless> ... progress faster, and get it to the public
# [18:48] <timeless> ... you can say it creates another document, wrong, bad
# [18:48] <timeless> ... but it works really well
# [18:48] <timeless> ... even w/ large number of documents
# [18:48] <timeless> ... we have 30-40 active contributors
# [18:48] <timeless> ... this could help the HTML WG
# [18:48] <timeless> paulc: time check
# [18:48] <timeless> ... 30 mins for coffee break
# [18:48] <timeless> ... i'll seek PF members from SVG WG
# [18:49] <timeless> ... we'll continue in second slot this afternoon
# [18:49] <timeless> ... maybe darobin we could try to make a scratchpad list of things we talked about doing
# [18:49] <timeless> ... sketch, figure out if we could assign to editorial team/chairs
# [18:49] <timeless> ... rubys "let's get practical"
# [18:49] <timeless> ... Josh_Soref 's notes are pretty good here
# [18:49] <timeless> ... things to do
# [18:49] <tantek> Aside: I'm happy to help provide history, guidance, answer questions about CSS modularization experience, as I'm sure glazou is as well. If you're curious how CSSWG has done modularization, please find either of us and ask us, happy to share publicly. Thank you.
# [18:49] <timeless> ... let's build a plan here
# [18:49] <timeless> ... even if items aren't double-clickable
# [18:50] * glazou is in the digipub meeting, ping me if you wish
# [18:50] <timeless> ... thanks Josh_Soref as usual
# [18:50] <timeless> [ Applause ]
# [18:50] <timeless> [ Break until 11:15 am ]
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# [18:58] <timeless> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
# [18:58] <RRSAgent> ok, timeless; I will not start a new log at midnight
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# [19:02] <rubys> zalim, who is on the phone?
# [19:02] <rubys> zakim, who is on the phone?
# [19:02] <Zakim> On the phone I see Santabarbara
# [19:02] <Zakim> Santabarbara has rubys, paulc, timeless, MikeSmith, darobin
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# [19:03] <timeless> Zakim, timeless has left Santabarbara
# [19:03] <Zakim> -timeless; got it
# [19:03] * timeless will return shortly
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# [19:11] * Rich__ test
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# [19:12] <timeless> topic: Accessibility w/ PF WG
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# [19:12] <timeless> Zakim, timeless has entered Santabarbara
# [19:12] <Zakim> +timeless; got it
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# [19:15] * MichaelC rrsagent, make minutes
# [19:15] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html MichaelC
# [19:15] <timeless> paulc: wiki has Part 1
# [19:15] <timeless> ... Joint w/ PF + SVG
# [19:15] * timeless ??
# [19:16] <timeless> ... request for 60 mins
# [19:16] * Joins: Cyril (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [19:16] <timeless> ... taxonomy for 30-6 mins pref not on thu afternoon
# [19:16] <timeless> ... Part 2
# [19:16] <timeless> ... name computation and the lik
# [19:16] <timeless> s/lik/like/
# [19:16] <timeless> janina: we don't have a need for that (drop)
# [19:16] <timeless> paulc: accesskey improvements (shane)
# [19:16] * Quits: stone (~stone@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:16] <timeless> ... captcha wd update (janina)
# [19:16] <timeless> janina: no
# [19:17] <timeless> ... drop mine
# [19:17] <timeless> ... not sure about shane
# [19:17] <timeless> paulc: doesn't surprise me
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# [19:17] <timeless> ... so i believe Fri Afternoon for A11y part 2 after Coffee gets dropped
# [19:17] <timeless> janina: i believe so
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# [19:17] <timeless> paulc: third area
# [19:17] <timeless> ... joint PF w/ DpugID and CSS WG
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# [19:18] <timeless> ... we've scheduled that for 4pm this afternoon
# [19:18] <timeless> janina: we need that
# [19:18] <timeless> paulc: we've added an update to that item an update on where the <canvas> TF is
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# [19:18] <timeless> ... we were expecting that to be reasonably short
# [19:18] <timeless> ... we wanted the PF / A11y experts to be in the room
# [19:18] <timeless> ... that means we're on topic
# [19:18] <timeless> ... so, now to A11y Part 1
# [19:18] * Joins: forty4 (~forty4@public.cloak)
# [19:18] <timeless> ... 11:15am-1pm
# [19:18] * Joins: jamesn (~jnurthen@public.cloak)
# [19:18] <timeless> ... then we break to lunch until two
# [19:19] <timeless> s|topic: Accessibility w/ PF WG|topic: Scheduling|
# [19:19] <timeless> janina: thank you paulc, and html wg
# [19:19] <timeless> ... for PF
# [19:19] <timeless> ... our meeting w/ Dig, we'll meet in their space
# [19:19] <timeless> ... i don't know which cities in this hall
# [19:19] <timeless> ... we meet @2pm in their space
# [19:19] <timeless> ... SVG
# [19:20] <timeless> topic: SVG and Graphics taxonomy
# [19:20] * Joins: ohmata (~ohmata@public.cloak)
# [19:20] <timeless> Rich__: joint TF between SVG and PF
# [19:20] <timeless> ... i'll be chairing w/ Fred Esch
# [19:20] <timeless> ... we're creating API interop specs
# [19:20] <timeless> ... for HTML and SVG
# [19:20] <timeless> ... and name computation
# [19:20] <timeless> ... going
# [19:20] <timeless> ... moving to map semantics across both languages to A11y service layers
# [19:20] <timeless> ... and create taxonomy better suited for graphics
# [19:21] <timeless> ... A11y/ARIA has <widget>s
# [19:21] <timeless> ... <region>s, <landmark>s
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# [19:21] <timeless> ... but we don't have a good way to describe graphics
# [19:21] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (mjs)
# [19:21] <timeless> ... it hasn't been given attention in years
# [19:21] <timeless> ... do it right this time
# [19:21] <timeless> ... charts, STEM graphics
# [19:21] <timeless> ... also, Connector spec
# [19:21] <timeless> ... between different objects, a Flow diagram
# [19:21] <timeless> ... doing this for SVG
# [19:21] <timeless> ... also applicable to HTML5 <canvas>
# [19:22] <timeless> ... also developers create drawings w/ CSS+js on HTML
# [19:22] <timeless> ... taxonomy applicable to that area as well
# [19:22] <timeless> ... if UCs that we have for HTML that we haven't addressed, we'd like to hear about them
# [19:22] <timeless> ... also, Connector spec in SVG
# [19:22] <timeless> ... Connector between two objects
# [19:22] <timeless> ... explicitly declared for SVG
# [19:22] <timeless> ... not sure how to do for HTML
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# [19:22] <timeless> ... also affects Navigation
# [19:23] <timeless> ... keyboard navigation in HTML tabindex=
# [19:23] * Joins: hiroto (~hiroto@public.cloak)
# [19:23] <timeless> ... <tab>
# [19:23] * Joins: joanie (~joanmarie@public.cloak)
# [19:23] <timeless> ... but sometimes you need to give users options of where to go
# [19:23] * Joins: sunghan (~sunghan@public.cloak)
# [19:23] <timeless> ... we'll explore
# [19:23] <timeless> ... it's largely for SVG
# [19:23] <timeless> ... but how to apply to html
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# [19:23] <timeless> fred: ARIA flowto=
# [19:23] <timeless> Rich__: <connector> in html?
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# [19:23] <timeless> ... dual purpose
# [19:23] <timeless> ... author gets things for free?
# [19:23] <timeless> ... is that something to look to in HTML?
# [19:24] <timeless> ... in future versions
# [19:24] <timeless> ... or limit to SVG?
# [19:24] <timeless> ... bring up spec/drop link?
# [19:24] <timeless> katie: Katie Harrito-Shea
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# [19:24] <timeless> ... could that be used in context for 3D/navigation?
# [19:24] <timeless> [ groans ]
# [19:24] <timeless> Rich__: 3D is around WebGL
# [19:24] <timeless> ... it isn't declarative
# [19:25] <timeless> ... i know Google is using WebGL for maps.google.com
# [19:25] <MichaelC> s/Harrito/Haritos/
# [19:25] <timeless> ... another exploration area
# [19:25] <timeless> paulc: lots of words, you need to give us pointers
# [19:25] <timeless> ... have you started discussing public-html@
# [19:25] <timeless> Rich__: no, we just started discussing today w/ CSS
# [19:25] <timeless> paulc: you had a meeting before this meeting
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# [19:25] <timeless> Rich__: Q1. specific semantics to include in taxonomy that people use in HTML today?
# [19:26] <SteveF> q+
# [19:26] * Zakim sees glazou, SteveF on the speaker queue
# [19:26] <timeless> ... Q2. create <connector> in HTML?
# [19:26] <timeless> ... or just focus on SVG?
# [19:26] <timeless> ... taking task for HTML
# [19:26] <timeless> ... specs are becoming closer and closer aligned
# [19:26] <Santabarbara> q- glazou
# [19:26] * Zakim sees SteveF on the speaker queue
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# [19:26] <Travis> q+
# [19:26] * Zakim sees SteveF, Travis on the speaker queue
# [19:26] <timeless> paulc: to Q1
# [19:27] <timeless> ... for what?
# [19:27] <timeless> shepazu: Doug Sheppers, W3C, a Staff Contact for SVG
# [19:27] <timeless> ... i'm a were-- err, no i'm a simple villager
# [19:27] <timeless> ... look at a Bar chart
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# [19:27] <timeless> ... axes, legend, bars (indicate values)
# [19:27] <timeless> ... other data visualizations have similar things
# [19:28] <timeless> ... breaking those things to constituent parts
# [19:28] <timeless> Rich__: ARIA has Grid, Checkbox, Tree
# [19:28] <timeless> shepazu: checkbox has element that is checkbox, mark for checkbox, label
# [19:28] * Joins: jongund (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [19:28] <timeless> ... you can describe those in ARIA
# [19:28] <timeless> ... if you make your own checkbox rather than <input type=checkbox>
# [19:29] <timeless> ... similarly, if you make a barchart, you'd be able to identify tick-marks, ranges, in ARIA
# [19:29] <timeless> ... a taxonomy of data visualizations
# [19:29] <timeless> ... SVG can draw anything, but we're talking about a taxonomy
# [19:29] * Joins: mhakkinen_ (~mhakkinen@public.cloak)
# [19:29] <timeless> q?
# [19:29] * Zakim sees SteveF, Travis on the speaker queue
# [19:29] <timeless> ack SteveF
# [19:29] * Zakim sees Travis on the speaker queue
# [19:29] * Joins: shepazu_ (~shepazu@public.cloak)
# [19:29] <timeless> SteveF: comment to SVG/PF/...
# [19:29] <timeless> ... when we're discussing this stuff
# [19:29] <timeless> ... if this is brought to html wg
# [19:29] * Joins: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak)
# [19:29] <timeless> ... i'd ask this be discussed on public-html@w3.org
# [19:30] <timeless> ... rather than the TF list
# [19:30] <timeless> ... the TF is a subset
# [19:30] <timeless> ... but we want to draw as many experts as possibl
# [19:30] <timeless> s/ibl/ible/
# [19:30] <shepazu_> Connectors are here... http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/connector/SVGConnector.html and http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/CONNECTORS/index.xhtml
# [19:30] <timeless> ... but we want to draw people to it
# [19:30] <timeless> janina: HTML A11y TF is not a TF at play
# [19:30] * Quits: Rich__ (~Rich@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:30] <timeless> ... this is a new TF between PF+SVG
# [19:30] <timeless> ... if we take all discussion to HTML list
# [19:31] <timeless> ... if that's what you're discussing
# [19:31] <timeless> SteveF: just use public-html@ not a11y list when you bring things to HTML
# [19:31] <timeless> q?
# [19:31] * Zakim sees Travis on the speaker queue
# [19:31] <timeless> ack Travis
# [19:31] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:31] <timeless> Travis: we had a great meeting now that HTML5 is a REC
# [19:31] <timeless> ... 1. taking a more modular approach
# [19:31] <timeless> ... we welcome these contributions to the HTML family of language
# [19:32] <timeless> ... but we probably wouldn't be in the core document
# [19:32] <timeless> ... HTML's SVG is exclusively in the parser
# [19:32] <shepazu_> q+
# [19:32] * Zakim sees shepazu_ on the speaker queue
# [19:32] <timeless> ... the rest of it probably wouldn't have a relation to the document
# [19:32] <timeless> ack shepazu_
# [19:32] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:32] <zcorpan_> q+
# [19:32] * Zakim sees zcorpan_ on the speaker queue
# [19:32] <timeless> s/shepazu_/shepazu/G
# [19:32] <timeless> shepazu_: there's another aspect of SVG/A11y
# [19:32] <timeless> ... larger, how we integrate <SVG> in <HTML>
# [19:33] * Joins: sunghan_ (~sunghan@public.cloak)
# [19:33] * Joins: kinjim (~kinjim@public.cloak)
# [19:33] <timeless> ... you can reference external an external .svg file w/ <img src=http:/// >
# [19:33] <timeless> ... <SVG> is like <HTML> but for graphics
# [19:33] * Quits: ed_tpac (~ed@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# [19:33] * Joins: marcjohlic (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [19:33] <timeless> ... you might have <path>, <circle>, <rect>
# [19:33] <timeless> ... it's markup
# [19:33] * glazou hears that as « this is similar but entirely different »
# [19:33] <timeless> ... just like <html>
# [19:34] <timeless> ... you can now include it inline in <html>
# [19:34] <timeless> ... right now, <svg> is treated as something very separate
# [19:34] <timeless> ... and <html> in <svg> has to be included in a wrapper called <foreignContent>
# [19:34] * Joins: sunghan__ (~sunghan@public.cloak)
# [19:34] <timeless> ... we'd like to see <html> inside <svg> w/ a closer relation
# [19:34] <timeless> ... many people who use HTML and SVG together would like to see that
# [19:34] * Quits: sunghan (~sunghan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:34] <timeless> ... SVG is often used w/ D3
# [19:34] <kurosawa> s/foreignContent/foreignObject/
# [19:34] * timeless http://d3js.org/
# [19:35] <timeless> paulc: where is that joining defined?
# [19:35] <timeless> shepazu_: sort of defined
# [19:35] <timeless> ... it doesn't cover sizings
# [19:35] * Quits: mjs (~mjs@public.cloak) (mjs)
# [19:35] <timeless> ... but it needs more definition
# [19:35] <timeless> paulc: where would that be done?
# [19:35] <Cyril> https://svgwg.org/specs/integration/
# [19:35] <timeless> shepazu_: we have a document called SVG Integration
# [19:36] <timeless> i|where is that joining defined|-> http://d3js.org/ Data-Driven Documents|
# [19:36] <timeless> shepazu_: <object>, <iframe>, <img>, css background:()
# [19:36] <timeless> ... i used to have <embed>
# [19:36] <timeless> ... it doesn't have <html:svg>
# [19:37] <timeless> paulc: scroll up to top
# [19:37] <timeless> ... FPWD from April
# [19:37] <timeless> ... what impact does this have on HTML spec?
# [19:37] <timeless> shepazu_: exclusively talking about SVG and its context
# [19:37] <timeless> ... we're proposing that it would also cover inline svg
# [19:37] <timeless> dirk: it doesn't right now
# [19:37] <timeless> paulc: at that point, it would interact more w/ the current hook
# [19:37] * Joins: marcjohlic_ (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [19:37] <timeless> shepazu_: the current parser hook
# [19:38] <timeless> ... we'd like to first class citizen <html>
# [19:38] <timeless> ... rather than have <forentObject>
# [19:38] <timeless> s/ent/eign/
# [19:38] <timeless> ... we'd like to have <svg:html>
# [19:38] <timeless> ... which would be an html root
# [19:38] * Joins: jnurthen (~jnurthen@public.cloak)
# [19:38] <timeless> ... inside that you could put html content
# [19:38] <timeless> ... good idea? bad idea?
# [19:38] <timeless> ... possibly having <html:circle> merging HTML/SVG
# [19:38] <Cyril> s/forentObject/foreignObject/
# [19:38] * timeless Cyril already done, that will fail
# [19:39] <timeless> paulc: if you're adding taxonomy to SVG
# [19:39] * Cyril sorry had not seen it
# [19:39] <timeless> ... and create more increasing link
# [19:39] <timeless> ... you'll inherit that
# [19:39] <timeless> shepazu_: yes
# [19:39] <timeless> q?
# [19:39] * Zakim sees zcorpan_ on the speaker queue
# [19:39] <timeless> s|s/forentObject/foreignObject/||
# [19:39] <timeless> ack zcorpan_
# [19:39] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:39] <timeless> zcorpan_: Simon, KKW
# [19:39] * Joins: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak)
# [19:39] <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
# [19:39] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfeger on the speaker queue
# [19:39] <timeless> ... bring up a point Travis mentioned
# [19:40] * Quits: jamesn (~jnurthen@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [19:40] * Quits: sunghan_ (~sunghan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:40] <timeless> ... new attribute/element affects parser
# [19:40] <timeless> ... but it only applies if it has uppercase
# [19:40] <timeless> ... if it's just lowercase, it doesn't affect the parser
# [19:40] * Joins: Jingwang_qi (~Jingwang_qi@public.cloak)
# [19:40] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [19:40] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
# [19:40] <timeless> shepazu_: and we will not use Uppercase
# [19:40] <timeless> ... we'll lowercase everything from now on
# [19:40] <timeless> ... we swear
# [19:41] <timeless> [ he's lying ]
# [19:41] <timeless> [ he's a werwolf ]
# [19:41] <timeless> richardschwerdtfeger: we have declarative tabindex
# [19:41] <timeless> ... sharing
# [19:41] * Quits: kinjim (~kinjim@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [19:41] <shepazu_> s/we'd like to have <svg:html>/we'd like to have an <html> element in SVG/
# [19:41] <timeless> ... more seemless
# [19:41] <timeless> ... we have <iframe>
# [19:41] <timeless> shepazu_: i don't remember current status
# [19:41] <timeless> ed: i think we do have that
# [19:42] * Quits: marcjohlic (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:42] * marcjohlic_ is now known as marcjohlic
# [19:42] <timeless> ... we have a topic for SVG WG agenda to discuss that integration
# [19:42] <timeless> ed: Eric Dahlstrom, SVG cochair
# [19:42] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
# [19:42] -gitbot:#html-wg- [html] darobin pushed 2 new commits to whatwg: https://github.com/w3c/html/compare/c7b287ef2e8a...45d62861f2d1
# [19:42] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/whatwg 09c8c7a Ian Hickson: [e] (0) typo in :matches() argument...
# [19:42] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/whatwg 45d6286 Robin Berjon: Merge remote branch 'origin/master' into whatwg
# [19:42] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
# [19:42] <timeless> richardschwerdtfeger: let's try to coordinate
# [19:42] <timeless> ... we're doing it for A11y, but...
# [19:42] <timeless> paulc: i've heard noone answer "Do we have a taxonomy?"
# [19:42] <timeless> ... i'll say "we don't"
# [19:42] <timeless> shepazu_: we know you don't have one
# [19:43] <timeless> ... we're wondering if you guys are open to the idea of merging <svg> elements into <html>
# [19:43] <timeless> paulc: if we did that, we'd inherit that taxonomy
# [19:43] <timeless> shepazu_: taxonomy would be in ARIA
# [19:43] * Joins: jongund_ (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [19:43] <timeless> ... you could do taxonomy w/ a barchart using divs/canvas
# [19:43] <timeless> ... flash
# [19:43] <timeless> ... silverlight
# [19:43] * Joins: smailus_ (~smailus@public.cloak)
# [19:43] <timeless> richardschwerdtfeger: taxonomy
# [19:43] <timeless> ... <connector>
# [19:44] <timeless> ... more specific to svg
# [19:44] <timeless> ... it'd be nice to have it as an element in <html>
# [19:44] * richardschwerdtfeger test
# [19:45] * timeless pass
# [19:45] <Santabarbara> http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/CONNECTORS/index.xhtml
# [19:45] <timeless> shepazu_: a connector is a thing that connects two things
# [19:45] <timeless> ... it's a graph
# [19:45] <timeless> [ Applause ]
# [19:45] * Quits: smailus (~smailus@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:45] <timeless> shepazu_: thank you, i appreciate that, i'll be here all week
# [19:46] <timeless> ... it says "i am the connection between A and B"
# [19:46] <timeless> ... say you have an org chart/genealogy tree
# [19:46] <timeless> ... each would be a new connector between different elements
# [19:47] <timeless> paulc: a) you're getting <rect>/<circle> more intimately into html
# [19:47] <timeless> ... b) you're also offering <connector> to connect a textbox to a list
# [19:47] <timeless> shepazu_: personally i think it's challenging
# [19:47] <timeless> ... one is visual
# [19:47] <timeless> ... there are ports
# [19:47] * Quits: jongund (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:47] <timeless> ... also, when you move shapes around, the connector keeps those things connected
# [19:47] <SteveF> q+
# [19:47] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfeger, SteveF on the speaker queue
# [19:47] * jongund_ is now known as jongund
# [19:47] <timeless> ... there's also virtual navigation
# [19:48] <timeless> s/virtual/logical/
# [19:48] <timeless> ... there's also an opportunity to describe the nature of the connection
# [19:48] <timeless> paulc: are there primitives?
# [19:48] <timeless> ... child?
# [19:48] <timeless> shepazu_: i don't think we should drill into that at this point
# [19:48] * Quits: rubys (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [19:48] <timeless> paulc: if we said "blow our minds"
# [19:49] <timeless> ... continue your work on inline-svg
# [19:49] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [19:49] <timeless> ... we'd get connectors for free
# [19:49] <timeless> ... using them with html could be a separate question
# [19:49] <timeless> shepazu_: also a bit on focusable:
# [19:49] * Quits: MarkVickers_ (~MarkVickers@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [19:49] * SteveF or even just 'blow us'
# [19:49] <timeless> richardschwerdtfeger: a number of discussions in PF
# [19:49] <timeless> ... on tabindex=
# [19:49] <timeless> janina: another topic
# [19:49] * shepazu_ SteveF, only you, baby
# [19:49] * Joins: MarkVickers_ (~MarkVickers@public.cloak)
# [19:50] <timeless> richardschwerdtfeger: we'll run into this tomorrow
# [19:50] <timeless> ... CSS has flexbox
# [19:50] <timeless> ... changes flow of page
# [19:50] <timeless> ... tabindex doesn't follow that
# [19:50] <timeless> ... not sure if today/now
# [19:50] <timeless> ... big can of worms
# [19:51] <timeless> paulc: taxonomy for graphics
# [19:51] <timeless> ... expanded to inline-<svg>
# [19:51] <timeless> ... expanded that to expanding set of objects in svg to include <connector>
# [19:51] <timeless> ... and told us we might be able to use it in HTML
# [19:51] <timeless> ... also event handler
# [19:51] <timeless> q?
# [19:51] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfeger, SteveF on the speaker queue
# [19:52] <timeless> ack SteveF
# [19:52] * Zakim sees richardschwerdtfeger on the speaker queue
# [19:52] * Quits: MarkVickers_ (~MarkVickers@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [19:52] * Joins: MarkVickers (~MarkVickers@public.cloak)
# [19:52] <timeless> SteveF: wrt <connector>
# [19:52] * Quits: MarkVickers (~MarkVickers@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [19:52] * Joins: MarkVickers (~MarkVickers@public.cloak)
# [19:52] <timeless> ... how would it help
# [19:52] <timeless> ... what are UCs for <html>
# [19:52] <timeless> ... from looking at it
# [19:52] <timeless> ... it appears to be mainly accessibility info?
# [19:52] <timeless> shepazu_: no
# [19:52] <timeless> ... if you've seen a meme w/ a flow chart
# [19:52] <timeless> ... anyone would be able to use it
# [19:52] <timeless> ... navigation for sighted people as well
# [19:53] <timeless> SteveF: advantage of this over additional attributes?
# [19:53] <timeless> ... rather than adding an element
# [19:53] <timeless> shepazu_: you don't want title=/label=
# [19:53] <timeless> ... you want it to be in different languages
# [19:53] <timeless> ... connector can have description as a child
# [19:53] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [19:53] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html ArtB
# [19:53] <timeless> ... deeper information
# [19:53] * Quits: taku (~taku@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:53] <timeless> SteveF: <div att=connector>
# [19:54] <timeless> ... a lot easier to add attributes than elements to html
# [19:54] <timeless> shepazu_: yes
# [19:54] <timeless> ... i'm not proposing <connector>s for html
# [19:54] <timeless> ack richardschwerdtfeger
# [19:54] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [19:54] <timeless> richardschwerdtfeger: <connector> gives semantic and drawing
# [19:54] <timeless> ... two boxes drawn in html
# [19:54] * Quits: ShaneM (~ShaneM@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [19:54] <timeless> ... and then i can draw the actual connector
# [19:55] * Joins: cyns (~cyns@public.cloak)
# [19:55] <timeless> SteveF: i thought we were talking about HTML
# [19:55] * Quits: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak) (richardschwerdtfeger)
# [19:55] <timeless> shepazu_: i'd rather you see the proposal + UCs first
# [19:55] * Quits: jongund (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [19:55] <timeless> cyns: Cynthia Shelly, Microsoft
# [19:55] * Quits: IanPouncey (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [19:55] <timeless> ... we have connectors in Visio
# [19:56] <timeless> ... they're pretty complex
# [19:56] <timeless> ... they'd be hard to do w/ attributes
# [19:56] <timeless> s/Visio/Visio - i worked on them/
# [19:56] * Joins: jongund (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [19:56] <timeless> paulc: have we done what you wanted to do?
# [19:56] * Quits: cyns (~cyns@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [19:56] <timeless> ... some talk of doing work w/o changing html
# [19:56] * Joins: cyns (~cyns@public.cloak)
# [19:56] <timeless> ... sounds like you do things as long as you do it in lowercase, you just do your thing
# [19:57] <timeless> shepazu_: yes
# [19:57] * Quits: tomoyuki (~tomoyuki@public.cloak) (tomoyuki)
# [19:57] <timeless> paulc: when would you have a doc for review?
# [19:57] <timeless> shepazu_: 4 months?
# [19:57] <timeless> [ Nods ]
# [19:57] <timeless> paulc: WG Draft for review?
# [19:57] <timeless> shepazu_: yes
# [19:57] <timeless> paulc: chairs make sure we're aware of document
# [19:57] <timeless> ... helps to identify what parts of document to look at
# [19:57] <timeless> ... or know what you've broken
# [19:57] <timeless> ... think you might break
# [19:57] <timeless> ... ask if other changes are needed
# [19:58] <timeless> ... asking us to just look at a dead cat
# [19:58] <timeless> ... "it's a dead cat"
# [19:58] <timeless> shepazu_: we'll try to avoid felinicide
# [19:58] <timeless> paulc: -> Agenda
# [19:58] <timeless> ... we've covered graphics/taxonomy
# [19:59] <timeless> richardschwerdtfeger: we met w/ WebApps earlier in the week
# [19:59] <timeless> ... we're proposing reflected attributes
# [19:59] <timeless> ... roles
# [19:59] <timeless> ... on elements
# [19:59] <timeless> ... getComputedRole()/getComputedLabel()
# [19:59] <timeless> ... when we get to CSS discussion
# [19:59] <timeless> ... CSS injects content into the page
# [19:59] <timeless> ... name computation gets more involved
# [20:00] <timeless> ... for test/tools, we need the computed name/role of object
# [20:00] <timeless> ... we can't depend on the dom any longer
# [20:00] <timeless> paulc: these are things in the dom
# [20:00] <timeless> ... which part of WebApps scope is impacted here?
# [20:00] <timeless> richardschwerdtfeger: we went to WebApps
# [20:00] <timeless> ... chaals said submit it here
# [20:00] <timeless> paulc: where in their family of specs would it land
# [20:01] <timeless> richardschwerdtfeger: it would be on a DOM element
# [20:01] <timeless> paulc: that's where i was going
# [20:01] <timeless> ... who owns DOM?
# [20:01] <timeless> ... you'd like additional methods on Elements
# [20:01] <timeless> richardschwerdtfeger: yes
# [20:01] <timeless> ... not just for HTML, same things for SVG
# [20:01] <timeless> paulc: best way to handle this
# [20:01] <timeless> ... when we talk about After HTML5
# [20:01] <timeless> ... we should add a sub-element
# [20:01] * Joins: jongund_ (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
# [20:01] <timeless> ... sub-item
# [20:02] <timeless> ... that HTML WG had assigned to it DOM4
# [20:02] <timeless> ... has to clearly define its future for DOM
# [20:02] <timeless> ... chaals gave you a very good answer
# [20:02] <timeless> ... i gave the Indie-UI the same answer
# [20:02] <timeless> ... do the work, we'll figure out where it belongs
# [20:02] <timeless> ... i'm trying to give the same sentiment
# [20:02] <timeless> richardschwerdtfeger: i wanted to give a headsup
# [20:02] <timeless> janina: this seemed like the time
# [20:03] <timeless> i|we met|Topic: ComputedRole/ComputedLabel|
# [20:03] <SteveF> Element.getComputedRole() thread on PF list http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Oct/thread.html#msg120
# [20:03] <timeless> topic: EventHandler enumeration
# [20:03] <timeless> janina: you've said no in the past
# [20:04] <timeless> ... maybe things have changed
# [20:04] <timeless> ... we understand you can get an enumeration of
# [20:04] <timeless> ... what's registered for each particular element platform by platform for particular element
# [20:04] * Quits: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:04] <timeless> ... or with a plugin
# [20:04] <timeless> ... i'd like to ask John Gunderman to talk about it
# [20:05] <timeless> s/John Gunderman/Jon Gunderson/
# [20:05] <timeless> jon: Jon Gunderson
# [20:05] <timeless> janina: is shane in the room (to point to past requests)
# [20:05] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
# [20:05] <timeless> jon: useful for a11y, in evaluation tools
# [20:05] * Joins: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak)
# [20:05] <timeless> ... if someone has assigned a role=widget to an Element
# [20:05] <timeless> ... you expect keyboard/click handlers related to the role
# [20:06] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak)
# [20:06] <timeless> ... w/ Testing Tools, we need to look for things related to that node/its parent
# [20:06] * Quits: jongund (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:06] <timeless> ... we need a special api for a particular browser
# [20:06] * jongund_ is now known as jongund
# [20:06] <timeless> ... or if we're on a server w/ HTMLUnit
# [20:06] <timeless> ... we need an extension
# [20:06] <timeless> ... maybe we just want to know "is there a keyup/keydown/mouseevent?"
# [20:06] <timeless> ... "are there mouseevents on this <div>?"
# [20:06] <timeless> ... then "this is something interactive"
# [20:07] <timeless> ... "are you using an ARIA role=?"
# [20:07] <timeless> ... "ARIA role=widget, is there a keyboard handler?"
# [20:07] <SteveF> q+
# [20:07] * Zakim sees SteveF on the speaker queue
# [20:07] <timeless> ... for Indie-UI
# [20:07] <timeless> ... "we're seeing key handlers, maybe you should use Indie-UI events"
# [20:07] <timeless> ... problem for me as a developer of an evaluation UI
# [20:07] <timeless> ... i develop specific test cases
# [20:07] <timeless> ... i can't use the DOM to get that event info
# [20:08] <timeless> ... in my unit test, i basically skip anything related to event handlers
# [20:08] <timeless> ... i can't build test pages that automatically test themselves
# [20:08] <timeless> paulc: so you want a way to enumerate all event handlers?
# [20:08] <timeless> jon: no, just are there any for a given type on a given node
# [20:08] <timeless> ... boolean is enough
# [20:08] <adrianba> q+
# [20:08] * Zakim sees SteveF, adrianba on the speaker queue
# [20:08] <timeless> ... i don't know what it will do, just know that it will listen
# [20:09] <timeless> paulc: anyone in the room receiving/sending side
# [20:09] <timeless> janina: there was resistance to doing this in a standardized way
# [20:09] <SteveF> Report on event listener investigation http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Aug/0090.html
# [20:09] <timeless> ... easier to build MITM attacks
# [20:09] <timeless> paulc: oh, you'd know an element had a particular event
# [20:09] <timeless> ... possibly a DoS? by using event over and over again
# [20:10] <timeless> Travis: some event handlers are known already, onfoo
# [20:10] <Cyril> q+
# [20:10] * Zakim sees SteveF, adrianba, Cyril on the speaker queue
# [20:10] <timeless> ... what's the difference between that and addEventListener
# [20:10] <timeless> jon: rarely are inline events used
# [20:10] <timeless> ... it's pretty rare that people use onclick= on elements
# [20:10] <timeless> ack SteveF
# [20:10] * Zakim sees adrianba, Cyril on the speaker queue
# [20:10] <timeless> SteveF: there's an email Shane did
# [20:10] <timeless> ... on event listener registration
# [20:10] <timeless> ... PF discussion
# [20:10] <SteveF> ack me
# [20:10] * Zakim sees adrianba, Cyril on the speaker queue
# [20:10] <timeless> ... background
# [20:11] <timeless> s/ack me//
# [20:11] <timeless> ack adrianba
# [20:11] * Zakim sees Cyril on the speaker queue
# [20:11] <timeless> adrianba: Adrian Bateman, Microsoft
# [20:11] <timeless> ... a bit confused about specific UC
# [20:11] <timeless> ... this might be helpful for those few times where you have an event handler attached to a specific element
# [20:11] <timeless> ... increasingly, control libraries developed
# [20:11] <jongund> q+
# [20:11] * Zakim sees Cyril, jongund on the speaker queue
# [20:11] <timeless> ... event handlers tend to be on different elements
# [20:11] <timeless> ... events captured somewhere else
# [20:12] <timeless> ... seems it'd be hard to discern anything about how interactive an element is based on presence of an event handler
# [20:12] <timeless> ack Cyril
# [20:12] * Zakim sees jongund on the speaker queue
# [20:12] <timeless> Cyril: not sure if it's sufficient for you
# [20:12] <timeless> ... you could overload addEventListener
# [20:12] <timeless> ... and setAttribute
# [20:12] <timeless> ... i've done it in an application
# [20:12] <timeless> paulc: i've seen nods
# [20:12] <timeless> ... have you tried jongund ?
# [20:12] <timeless> s/jon:/jongund:/
# [20:12] <adrianba> +1 to cyril - we do this for similar purposes
# [20:12] <timeless> jongund: we have a sidebar in Firefox
# [20:13] <timeless> ... if you open the sidebar after you've loaded the page, you don't have a chance to overload
# [20:13] <timeless> ... also in a browser, there's no guarantee when your overload gets into the process
# [20:13] <timeless> ... for parent/child relationship
# [20:13] <timeless> ... we do look at all parent elements
# [20:13] <timeless> ... and child elements
# [20:13] <timeless> ... not definitive
# [20:13] <timeless> ... if i see there are mouse handlers, but no roles
# [20:13] <timeless> ... i don't know for sure, but i can probably tell him that you need to look at what you're doing
# [20:13] <timeless> ... maybe add ARIA
# [20:14] <cyns> q+ to say that UAAG was asking for a similar feature. I gave them feedback that it wasn't feasible to do this because the events could be bound at any time, and there was no way to know if you got them all
# [20:14] * Zakim sees jongund, cyns on the speaker queue
# [20:14] <timeless> ... and if you do add them, and i don't see keyboard, i can tell them they still aren't fulfilling ARAI
# [20:14] <timeless> s/ARAI/ARIA/
# [20:14] <timeless> ... people build a spec
# [20:14] <timeless> s/spec/page
# [20:14] <cyns> q?
# [20:14] * Zakim sees jongund, cyns on the speaker queue
# [20:14] <timeless> ... they read spec, they add aria role=menu
# [20:14] <timeless> ... they add that all over
# [20:14] <timeless> ... look at aria evaluation
# [20:14] <timeless> ... it doesn't work because there aren't event handlers
# [20:15] <timeless> ... not supporting keyboard/managing focus
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# [20:15] <timeless> ... i can use hooks to tell people that they need it
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# [20:15] <timeless> Travis: i have a resistance to a general purpose feature in the language
# [20:15] <timeless> ... i see it's a valid UC for testing/a11y
# [20:15] <timeless> ... when you want to prod it
# [20:15] <timeless> ... testing at load time is a small portion, if you don't exercise event handlers
# [20:16] <timeless> ... have you thought about asking the Web Driver folks to get it added there?
# [20:16] <timeless> Josh_Soref: +1
# [20:16] <timeless> jongund: I haven't looked into that
# [20:16] <timeless> ... we haven't looked in PF either
# [20:16] <timeless> paulc: Web Driver is more recent
# [20:16] <timeless> ... more comprehensive testing than the last time PF/A11y asked for this
# [20:16] <timeless> ... UC is very Test oriented
# [20:17] <timeless> ... and as Travis said, we should figure out how to test these features post pageload
# [20:17] <timeless> ... maybe that's a possible route
# [20:17] <timeless> q?
# [20:17] * Zakim sees jongund, cyns on the speaker queue
# [20:17] * Quits: MarkVickers (~MarkVickers@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:17] <timeless> ack jongund
# [20:17] * Zakim sees cyns on the speaker queue
# [20:17] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [20:17] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
# [20:17] <timeless> cyns: UAAG WG was asking for a similar feature
# [20:17] <timeless> ... to track events/change input method of them
# [20:17] <timeless> ... MS said it wasn't feasible
# [20:17] <timeless> ... you didn't know if you got all the events
# [20:18] <timeless> ... I think Web Driver would work
# [20:18] <timeless> ... In a11y, we're often trying to change the input method
# [20:18] <timeless> ... i wonder if there's anything we could do to make it feasible
# [20:18] <timeless> paulc: even if you collect some of them
# [20:18] <timeless> ... others could come up later
# [20:19] <cyns> ack me
# [20:19] <Zakim> cyns, you wanted to say that UAAG was asking for a similar feature. I gave them feedback that it wasn't feasible to do this because the events could be bound at any time, and
# [20:19] <timeless> ... potentially an infinite number
# [20:19] <Zakim> ... there was no way to know if you got them all
# [20:19] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [20:19] <timeless> paulc: i heard two implicit action items
# [20:19] <timeless> ... a11y should go look at Web Driver
# [20:19] <timeless> ... partial fix for the problem
# [20:19] <timeless> ... i didn't hear anyone speak to old reason
# [20:20] <timeless> ... i'll believe that's still a valid pushback
# [20:20] <timeless> ... maybe less so in testing case as Travis said
# [20:20] <timeless> ... and shepazu_ took an action item to make sure HTML WG progresses to a particular stage
# [20:20] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak)
# [20:20] <timeless> ... and include question in a review request
# [20:20] <timeless> ... include me in the to: field for public-html@ (technical) or public-html-admin@ (non-technical)
# [20:21] <timeless> ... if you send review request with technical review, use the former, if you don't have questions, use the latter list
# [20:21] <timeless> ... shepazu_, you're invited to split the request into two
# [20:21] <timeless> ... questions in subject field
# [20:21] <timeless> q+ to note on Process
# [20:21] * Zakim sees timeless on the speaker queue
# [20:22] <timeless> paulc: we have another slot this afternoon
# [20:22] <timeless> ... 4pm for notes, footnotes, roles/validation for digital processing
# [20:22] <timeless> ... we have a hard stop at 5pm
# [20:22] <timeless> ... another agenda item, someone calling in from China
# [20:22] <timeless> janina: that's fine
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# [20:22] <timeless> paulc: cyns, that's the slot you wanted?
# [20:23] <timeless> cyns: mine was about events
# [20:23] <timeless> paulc: confirming that we're dropping name computation, access key, captcha
# [20:23] <timeless> shepazu_: we in SVG ... in an obsolete version of SVG
# [20:23] <timeless> ... we have a focusable= attribute
# [20:23] <timeless> ... this serves the purpose
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# [20:23] <timeless> ... most stuff in SVG isn't focusable
# [20:23] <timeless> ... we're thinking of re-adding that for SVG2
# [20:24] <timeless> ... we also have tabindex=
# [20:24] <zcorpan_> q+
# [20:24] * Zakim sees timeless, zcorpan_ on the speaker queue
# [20:24] <timeless> ... we want to talk about that relationship
# [20:24] <Cyril> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/interact.html#focusable-attr
# [20:24] <timeless> q+ timeless_2 to ask shepazu_ about css for focussable
# [20:24] * Zakim sees timeless, zcorpan_, timeless_2 on the speaker queue
# [20:24] * Quits: jongund (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [20:24] <timeless> paulc: i'd recommend you divide it down to technical topic
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# [20:24] <timeless> ... xpost to svg@ +public-html@
# [20:24] <timeless> ack zcorpan_
# [20:24] * Zakim sees timeless, timeless_2 on the speaker queue
# [20:24] <timeless> zcorpan_: tabindex=
# [20:25] <timeless> ... it's not necessary to have focusable, tabindex=0 means this is focusable
# [20:25] <timeless> shepazu_: we'll have a longer discussion someplace else
# [20:25] <timeless> q?
# [20:25] * Zakim sees timeless, timeless_2 on the speaker queue
# [20:25] <timeless> ack me
# [20:25] <Zakim> timeless, you wanted to note on Process
# [20:25] * Zakim sees timeless_2 on the speaker queue
# [20:26] <timeless> ack me
# [20:26] <Zakim> timeless_2, you wanted to ask shepazu_ about css for focussable
# [20:26] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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# [20:27] <timeless> paulc: recess for lunch
# [20:27] <timeless> ... back at 2pm
# [20:27] <timeless> [ lunch until 2pm ]
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# [20:27] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [20:27] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
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# [20:29] <timeless> s/Process/Process TF is encouraging review requests to identify the areas which would be interesting to reviewers/
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# [21:41] <paulc> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [21:41] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html paulc
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# [21:48] * timeless is coming
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# [21:50] <jcraig> agenda?
# [21:50] * Zakim sees nothing on the agenda
# [21:50] * jcraig agenda URL please? thx
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# [21:58] * rubys wonders where timeless is
# [21:59] * timeless coming -- sorry, dropped in on irc
# [21:59] * timeless err, AC
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# [22:05] * zcorpan rubys: do you have a pointer to your old "xhtml thought experiment" blog post? tab failed to find it and i can't find it either
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# [22:06] <timeless> topic: Agenda Bashing
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# [22:06] <timeless> paulc: this item was meant to give us an update on the joint Editing TF
# [22:06] * Joins: Noriya (~Noriya@public.cloak)
# [22:06] * rniwa is back to HTMLL WG!
# [22:06] <timeless> ... not just HTML+WebApps, but lots of other people
# [22:06] * Parts: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak) (Leaving)
# [22:06] <timeless> ... i'm not trying to replay the hours of discussion from earlier in the week
# [22:06] <timeless> ... i think it's important to make the HTML WG aware of that discussion
# [22:06] <timeless> ... after that is a Coffee Break
# [22:07] <timeless> ... and then After HTML5 discussion
# [22:07] <timeless> ... concrete, look at scribbled notes
# [22:07] <timeless> ... 4pm with PF WG and DpugIG + CSS
# [22:07] <timeless> ... also folded Canvas TF report -- probably first
# [22:07] <timeless> ... i may have had a request to do it first
# [22:07] <timeless> ... i haven't confirmed, i just sent an email to China
# [22:07] <timeless> ... it's 5am (China time) now
# [22:07] * Parts: joanie (~joanmarie@public.cloak) (joanie)
# [22:08] <timeless> ... planning to do 5:00-5:30pm on WebPerf proposal
# [22:08] * Joins: hjlee (~hjlee@public.cloak)
# [22:08] <timeless> ... we still don't have anything after Coffee tomorrow
# [22:08] <timeless> ... I'm reordering EME bits
# [22:08] <timeless> ... I had a request about Bug 26332
# [22:08] <timeless> ... currently anchored @ 10am
# [22:08] <timeless> ... and a general pointer to EME bugs on first item
# [22:09] <timeless> ... still talking to TF participants about order
# [22:09] <timeless> ... darobin, under DOM4 test results, i just picked up pointers to documents we attempted to use for CfC and are ready to use for TransReq
# [22:09] <timeless> ... I think that's all the changes
# [22:09] <timeless> ... darobin ?
# [22:09] <timeless> Topic: Editing TF
# [22:10] <timeless> darobin: editing, contentEditable are major pains to everyone
# [22:10] <timeless> ... a few months ago we gathered people together
# [22:10] <timeless> ... we set up a TF
# [22:10] <timeless> ... there's a lot to fix, a lot of moving parts
# [22:11] <timeless> ... we tried to split into manageable chunks
# [22:11] <timeless> ... even if we don't solve editing, just improve a part
# [22:11] <timeless> ... it makes life easier for people
# [22:11] <timeless> ... we have several things in parallel
# [22:11] <timeless> ... 1. collaboration w/ Indie-UI -- Intention Events
# [22:12] <timeless> ... instead of having to intercept cmd-z + ctrl-z + ctrl-u (some locale) + shaking phone
# [22:12] <timeless> ... UA does transformation for you
# [22:12] <timeless> ... undo might not be part of the first batch
# [22:12] <timeless> ... text insertion, deletion, newlines, selections
# [22:12] * Joins: abarsto (~abarsto@public.cloak)
# [22:12] <timeless> ... that's meant to abstract on top of what's going on
# [22:12] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
# [22:12] <timeless> Travis: worth noting
# [22:13] <timeless> ... these are actions... Intentions... confused me
# [22:13] <timeless> ... these Intentions come after the classic device-events are fired
# [22:13] <timeless> ... you'd still, if copying/undoing via ctrl-z
# [22:13] <timeless> ... you'd get keydowns, etc
# [22:13] <timeless> ... if after all of that, nothing was done to upset the browser's intention for undo
# [22:13] <timeless> ... it falls at the end of the pipeline
# [22:14] <timeless> rniwa: re: Intention, clear aspects of Selection
# [22:14] <timeless> ... there's IE getSelection(), but no spec
# [22:14] <timeless> ... trying to write a small spec to document what's implemented by browser
# [22:14] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@public.cloak)
# [22:14] <timeless> ... some aspects are lacking
# [22:14] <timeless> ... e.g. in github
# [22:14] <timeless> ... caret positioning is underspec'd
# [22:14] <timeless> ... selection at end of previous line/beginning of next line
# [22:14] <timeless> ... if text wraps via soft-wrapping
# [22:15] <timeless> ... you can't tell from DOM if caret is at the end of the line, or after the line break
# [22:15] <timeless> ... or you can't tell if the caret is before/after text direction transitions
# [22:15] <timeless> ... some browsers render the caret in different locations
# [22:15] <timeless> ... knowing where the caret is enables you to position a toolbar correctly
# [22:16] <timeless> darobin: there's also caret-direction
# [22:16] <timeless> ... which might influence selection
# [22:16] <timeless> rniwa: ... in Firefox
# [22:16] <timeless> darobin: it needs to be interoperable
# [22:16] <timeless> rniwa: based on UCs
# [22:16] <timeless> darobin: .contentEditable is problematic
# [22:16] <timeless> ... = true, you get a huge bags of behaviors
# [22:16] <timeless> ... browser starts handling bold, underline, undo
# [22:16] <timeless> ... first thing you do is stop browser from doing everything
# [22:17] <timeless> ... so we're working on X.contentEditable = "typing"
# [22:17] <timeless> ... when you set that on, you get the events related to editing, but the browser doesn't respond to the events
# [22:17] <timeless> ... this is a primitive people can use to build editors on top of
# [22:17] * Joins: tantek_ (~tantek_@public.cloak)
# [22:17] <timeless> rniwa: the key point of X.contentEditable = "typing"
# [22:18] <timeless> ... is that it allows browsers to handle IME / spellcheck
# [22:18] <timeless> ... in some cases, if you have a round of CJK
# [22:18] <timeless> ... and you want to convert the text back to composing state
# [22:18] <timeless> ... you could
# [22:18] <timeless> ... the application specific logic would be handled by the app
# [22:18] <timeless> darobin: it's more complicated than IME/spellcheck
# [22:19] <timeless> ... we'll also do compositing
# [22:19] <timeless> ... 'e -> é
# [22:19] <timeless> ... deadkeys, hebrew punctuation
# [22:19] * Joins: sunghan (~sunghan@public.cloak)
# [22:19] <timeless> paulc: it's one thing to scribe puns
# [22:19] <timeless> ... but another to scribe editing instructions into irc
# [22:19] <timeless> darobin: editing options
# [22:20] * Joins: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak)
# [22:20] <timeless> ... possibility to insert a Shadow DOM with the text before IME/compositing is done
# [22:20] <timeless> rniwa: one aspect of Editing
# [22:20] <timeless> ... that i'm not sure of
# [22:20] <timeless> ... is selection, the way to serialize selection
# [22:20] <timeless> ... if you do getSelection().toString()
# [22:20] <timeless> ... you get the plain text of the selected content
# [22:20] <timeless> ... you get .innerText
# [22:20] <timeless> ... which isn't spec'd anywhere
# [22:21] <timeless> ... do we block the spec on this?
# [22:21] <timeless> glazou: you can also say it's the .textContent
# [22:21] <timeless> darobin: you don't want that
# [22:21] <timeless> ... because it gives you hidden text
# [22:21] <timeless> ... Travis has an action item on it
# [22:21] <timeless> ... "text events and keyboard events are *easy*"
# [22:21] * Joins: marcjohlic (~marcjohlic@public.cloak)
# [22:22] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@public.cloak)
# [22:22] <timeless> rniwa: CSS generated content, i don't think any browser lets you select individual characters of a generated run
# [22:22] * Joins: benjamp (~benjamp@public.cloak)
# [22:22] <timeless> ... i think there's a desire to be able to select it
# [22:22] <timeless> darobin: i'd like to select generated content
# [22:22] <timeless> ... i want to get the numbers from generated list
# [22:22] <timeless> glazou: it'd be impossible for the time being
# [22:22] <paulc> q+
# [22:22] * Zakim sees paulc on the speaker queue
# [22:23] <rubys> ack next
# [22:23] * Zakim sees paulc at the head of the speaker queue
# [22:23] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:23] * Quits: taku (~taku@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [22:23] <benjamp> zakim, code?
# [22:23] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), benjamp
# [22:23] <timeless> paulc: seems like this is a module
# [22:23] <timeless> ... a direction for this TF
# [22:23] <timeless> ... i made that comment during the WebApps meeting
# [22:23] <timeless> ... i'll make the same recommendation to the TF
# [22:24] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [22:24] <benjamp> zakim, [Microsoft] is me
# [22:24] <Zakim> +benjamp; got it
# [22:24] <timeless> ... probably much easier
# [22:24] <timeless> darobin: welcome benjamp
# [22:24] <timeless> ... thanks for showing up
# [22:24] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [22:24] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
# [22:24] * Joins: jcraig_ (~jcraig@public.cloak)
# [22:24] * rniwa greets benjamp
# [22:24] <timeless> darobin: contentEditable makes sense as an HTML module, even if it's a 5 line module
# [22:25] <timeless> ... it could be a good test
# [22:25] <timeless> ... makes for good practice
# [22:25] <timeless> paulc: darobin, you said, your preference
# [22:25] <timeless> ... "not rip the spec apart, just to rip the spec apart"
# [22:25] <timeless> ... "just to create modules when we need them"
# [22:25] <timeless> ... maybe that's where it is
# [22:25] <timeless> darobin: definitely one of the first ones
# [22:25] <timeless> rniwa: helps that we're a small group of people
# [22:25] <timeless> ... html-wg has a lot of people
# [22:26] <timeless> ... maybe there are other parts of the spec that people can work on
# [22:26] <timeless> darobin: i agree
# [22:26] <timeless> ... we started on public-webapps@
# [22:26] <timeless> ... a couple of people contacted me saying 1/2 the content was Editing
# [22:26] <timeless> ... please go to your own list
# [22:26] <timeless> ... and webapps is high traffic
# [22:26] <timeless> benjamp: you were talking about X.contentEditable = "typing"
# [22:27] <timeless> ... there's a corollary
# [22:27] <timeless> ... WebKit has X.contentEditable = "plaintext"
# [22:27] * Quits: jcraig (~jcraig@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:27] * jcraig_ is now known as jcraig
# [22:27] <timeless> ... which is actually that
# [22:27] <timeless> ... it's 10 years old
# [22:27] <timeless> rniwa: "plaintext" is slightly more complicated than "typing"
# [22:27] <timeless> ... it supports insertion/deletion
# [22:27] <timeless> darobin: it's a textarea?
# [22:27] <timeless> rniwa: that's what we internally use to implement it
# [22:28] <timeless> darobin: when you find out how browsers work
# [22:28] <timeless> ... you wonder how the web holds together
# [22:28] <timeless> [ "with crazy glue" ]
# [22:28] * shepazu is now known as shepazooOOoo
# [22:28] <timeless> paulc: are there minutes?
# [22:28] <timeless> darobin: yes
# [22:28] <timeless> s/minutes/minutes from WebApps/
# [22:28] <timeless> ... i'll find that
# [22:29] <rniwa> Editing minutes from HTML WG: http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html#item26
# [22:29] <rniwa> http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-webapps-minutes.html#item08
# [22:29] <timeless> topic: After HTML5
# [22:30] <Zakim> -benjamp
# [22:30] <timeless> s|Editing minutes from HTML WG: www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html#item26|-> http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-webapps-minutes.html#item26 "selection, editing and user interactions" from WebApps WG meeting|
# [22:30] <timeless> s|http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-webapps-minutes.html#item08|-> http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-webapps-minutes.html#item08 "Editing" from WebApps WG meeting|
# [22:30] <darobin> let's use an Etherpad: https://etherpad.mozilla.org/U16aQP4aQB
# [22:30] <benjamp> Present+ Ben_Peters
# [22:30] * Quits: benjamp (~benjamp@public.cloak) ("Page closed")
# [22:31] <timeless> paulc: rubys and darobin went to the AC meeting to discuss this topic
# [22:31] <darobin> https://darobin.github.io/modularity-slides
# [22:31] * Joins: r12a (rishida@public.cloak)
# [22:31] <timeless> s|https://darobin.github.io/modularity-slides/|-> https://darobin.github.io/modularity-slides/ "HTML Modularisation" slides|
# [22:31] <timeless> darobin: overall positive
# [22:32] <timeless> ... questions about "how does this interact w/ PP"
# [22:32] <timeless> ... "what was your paper trail"
# [22:32] <timeless> ... no interesting questions
# [22:32] <timeless> [ Cunningham's Law ]
# [22:32] <timeless> [ Magic & Innovation ]
# [22:32] <timeless> rubys: tantek challenged that
# [22:32] <timeless> [ Tooling & Agility ]
# [22:32] * Quits: marcjohlic (~marcjohlic@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:32] <timeless> rubys: rat hole on github
# [22:32] <timeless> ... not actions here
# [22:32] * Joins: abarsto (~abarsto@public.cloak)
# [22:32] * Quits: ArtB (~abarsto@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:32] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
# [22:33] <timeless> ... i characterized as WIP
# [22:33] <timeless> s/that/that (Extensible Web Manifesto)/
# [22:33] <timeless> [ Software Development ]
# [22:33] <timeless> rubys: some challenged bleeding is only
# [22:33] <timeless> ... i don't think any wanted only old
# [22:33] <timeless> ... plenty in middle
# [22:33] <timeless> [ Modularisation ]
# [22:33] <timeless> s/[ Modularisation ]/[ The Unix Philosophy ]/
# [22:34] <timeless> [ Modularisation ]
# [22:34] <timeless> rubys: perceived as a ding
# [22:34] <timeless> ... two people defended work they did
# [22:34] <timeless> ... XHTML modularization let you picked one of part A and one of part B
# [22:34] <timeless> ... hypothetically, if you split <table> out to a different document
# [22:34] * rniwa thanks timeless for correcting the heading for URLs :)
# [22:34] <timeless> ... it wouldn't mean that you can not implement it
# [22:35] <timeless> paulc: when we did the breakout on Wednesday
# [22:35] <timeless> ... I encouraged people to look at the Extension spec
# [22:35] <timeless> ... which says you can use HTML5 + others
# [22:35] <timeless> ... I think there were very few people beyond Noah Mendelson
# [22:35] <timeless> ... who raised the concern
# [22:35] <timeless> ... who read that spec
# [22:35] <timeless> rubys: we made a change
# [22:36] <timeless> ... noah said "you can't say I'm an HTML5 client without being more specific"
# [22:36] * Joins: bobtung (~bobbytung@public.cloak)
# [22:36] <timeless> ... you have to say "conformant to HTML5+longdesc"
# [22:36] <timeless> ... Hixie said you can just say "conformant to HTML5"
# [22:36] <timeless> ... noah was saying you had to specify
# [22:36] <timeless> ... we tried on IP provenance
# [22:36] <timeless> ... we tried twice to say
# [22:37] * Joins: aphllip (~aphillip@public.cloak)
# [22:37] <timeless> ... currently, someone sends IP to ML
# [22:37] <timeless> ... and it makes it to the spec
# [22:37] <timeless> ... we tried to track
# [22:37] <timeless> ... github does some tracking
# [22:37] * Quits: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak) (richardschwerdtfeger)
# [22:37] <timeless> ... we said we could report various contributors
# [22:37] <timeless> ... tracking when people stop working for employers when ...
# [22:37] <timeless> ... we can't do
# [22:37] <timeless> ... more data is good news
# [22:38] <timeless> ... but it seems to rathole
# [22:38] <timeless> MikeSmith: that argument doesn't make sense
# [22:38] * Joins: addison (~aphillip@public.cloak)
# [22:38] <timeless> ... we're there already
# [22:38] <timeless> ... using outside systems won't make it any worse
# [22:38] <timeless> [ Questions? ]
# [22:38] <timeless> paulc: darobin, you're the only one w/ an action
# [22:38] <timeless> q?
# [22:38] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:38] <timeless> action-249?
# [22:38] * trackbot is looking up action-249.
# [22:38] <trackbot> action-249 -- Robin Berjon to Triage new whatwg updates, html bugs, landscape document in order to list priority content for modules -- due 2014-11-06 -- OPEN
# [22:38] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/249
# [22:39] * Joins: fsasaki (fsasaki@public.cloak)
# [22:39] * Joins: stone (~emu@public.cloak)
# [22:39] <timeless> paulc: hoping to make a more extensive list
# [22:39] <timeless> ... i know you were busy over lunch
# [22:39] <darobin> https://etherpad.mozilla.org/U16aQP4aQB
# [22:39] <timeless> ... i don't know if we want to open up your scratch pad
# [22:39] * Joins: HZ (~HZ@public.cloak)
# [22:40] <timeless> paulc: DnD was there
# [22:40] <timeless> ... what was the definitive list of things that failed to exit CR?
# [22:40] <timeless> darobin: date and time related elements
# [22:40] <timeless> paulc: categorize as "failed CR items"
# [22:41] * Joins: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak)
# [22:41] <timeless> ... things to polish spec text, polish test suite, polish implementations
# [22:41] <timeless> ... we had a request from Addison and i18n
# [22:41] <timeless> present+ Addison_Phillips
# [22:42] <timeless> aphllip: Addison Phillips, chair of i18n WG
# [22:42] * Joins: Zefa_ (~Zefa@public.cloak)
# [22:42] <timeless> ... i brought my cohorts here
# [22:42] <timeless> ... we have a couple of things we proposed in the past
# [22:42] <timeless> ... not a good fit for HTML5
# [22:42] <timeless> ... one was handling TZ values
# [22:42] <timeless> ... for time values on the web
# [22:42] <timeless> ... we have a proposal
# [22:42] <timeless> ... it was created
# [22:42] * Joins: wei-james (~wei-james@public.cloak)
# [22:42] <timeless> ... it's in HTML.next bug space
# [22:42] <r12a> https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Locale-based_forms
# [22:42] * Joins: renmin (~renmin@public.cloak)
# [22:43] <r12a> https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/HTML5TimeZone
# [22:43] <timeless> s|https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Locale-based_forms|-> https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Locale-based_forms Locale-based forms in HTML pages|
# [22:43] <timeless> s|https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/HTML5TimeZone|-> https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/HTML5TimeZone HTML5 TimeZone|
# [22:43] <timeless> aphllip: timezone
# [22:43] <timeless> ... calendar
# [22:43] <timeless> ... there's a Blink intent-to-implement
# [22:43] <timeless> ... we have good guidance there
# [22:44] <timeless> paulc: things we tried to do in 5.0 + moved out, or only got to bug stage
# [22:44] <timeless> aphllip: things we either didn't fit in the timeline from early on
# [22:44] <timeless> ... TZ is that
# [22:44] * Quits: aphllip (~aphillip@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:44] <timeless> ... or things which exist in HTML structure and were considered out-of-scope
# [22:44] <rniwa> q+
# [22:44] * Zakim sees rniwa on the speaker queue
# [22:44] * Joins: marcjohlic1 (~marcjohlic@public.cloak)
# [22:44] <timeless> paulc: is TZ the only item, or do you have a collection of items
# [22:44] <timeless> ... how many of wishes do you want?
# [22:44] * Joins: xhuang (~emu@public.cloak)
# [22:44] <timeless> ... and if your third wish is for more wishes...
# [22:44] <timeless> darobin: that's locale dependent
# [22:45] <timeless> paulc: no, the number of wishes and when they occur is TZ dependent
# [22:45] <timeless> aphllip: TZ is concrete
# [22:45] <timeless> ... forms affected by Locales
# [22:45] <timeless> QQQ: Locale varies
# [22:46] <timeless> ... we've identified issues we want to think through more
# [22:46] <timeless> ... possible security problems
# [22:46] <xiaoqian> s/QQQ/Richard
# [22:46] * timeless ishida
# [22:46] * Joins: Zefa__ (~Zefa@public.cloak)
# [22:46] <timeless> aphllip: 3rd wish, we wished our issues list before we came here
# [22:46] <timeless> [ laughter ]
# [22:47] <timeless> s/Richard/r12a/
# [22:47] <timeless> paulc: generally thinking about doing
# [22:47] <timeless> ... if we have a subgroup, e.g. Editing TF
# [22:47] <timeless> ... pull it out into a module, then let them do a pull request
# [22:47] <timeless> ... and see their proposed replacement
# [22:47] <timeless> ... wondering if i18n WG would be willing to work like that
# [22:47] <timeless> ... high level Q
# [22:47] * Quits: stone (~emu@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:47] <timeless> ... would it suit your workmode?
# [22:48] <timeless> ... suit your direction?
# [22:48] <timeless> aphllip: i think not
# [22:48] <timeless> ... although we do develop things like that
# [22:48] <timeless> ... we generally have our feedback on what others develop
# [22:48] <timeless> ... TZ is recommendation for an approach to solve a specific set of problems
# [22:48] <timeless> ... w/in the larger context of say, <form>s
# [22:48] <timeless> darobin: you don't have to do all the work yourself
# [22:49] <timeless> ... we're not excluding people from outside the group contributing to modules
# [22:49] <timeless> ... we're making a list now
# [22:49] <timeless> ... but this isn't a finalized list
# [22:49] <timeless> aphllip: we're not shy, not against helping
# [22:49] <timeless> ... but we come here not understanding how we'd do that yet
# [22:49] <timeless> paulc: we come unprepared because we don't know what to ask you to do yet
# [22:49] <timeless> [ mutual confusion ]
# [22:49] <timeless> paulc: your desires to improve a part of html5+ would fit in w/ this model
# [22:49] <timeless> ... we might have to find someone to work w/ you
# [22:50] <timeless> ... set UC, Reqs, and go from there
# [22:50] <timeless> ... you provide commentary on that
# [22:50] <rniwa> q?
# [22:50] * Zakim sees rniwa on the speaker queue
# [22:50] <timeless> ... I mentioned i18n WG in the wiki
# [22:50] <timeless> ... have i met your needs?
# [22:50] <timeless> ack rniwa
# [22:50] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [22:50] <timeless> rniwa: one thing, looking at the list
# [22:50] <timeless> ... Locale based forms + HTML timezone
# [22:50] <timeless> ... it'd be really nice to have concrete user scenarios
# [22:51] <timeless> ... user visits Citibank account from China
# [22:51] <timeless> ... maybe you want to show numbers in Chinese instead of Latin
# [22:51] <timeless> ... helpful to see scenarios
# [22:51] <timeless> ... potential problems you anticipate
# [22:51] <timeless> ... could be really helpful
# [22:51] * Quits: marcjohlic1 (~marcjohlic@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:51] <timeless> paulc: is that all the failed items?
# [22:51] <timeless> darobin: it's all the stuff that got pushed off
# [22:52] * Quits: richardschwerdtfeger (~RichS@public.cloak) (richardschwerdtfeger)
# [22:52] <timeless> paulc: also missing are items from other groups
# [22:52] <timeless> ... e.g. whatwg
# [22:52] <timeless> ... if we're identifying modules
# [22:52] * Quits: Zefa_ (~Zefa@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [22:52] <timeless> ... we should identify what we're working on
# [22:52] <timeless> ... and what others are working on
# [22:52] <timeless> darobin: this also includes our worklist
# [22:53] <timeless> rniwa: if we're modularizing it
# [22:53] <timeless> ... the newer version of html draft should link to the module
# [22:53] <timeless> ... otherwise, a person reading html5 spec may not realize it's there
# [22:53] <timeless> paulc: we haven't solved that problem at all
# [22:53] <timeless> ... but we recognized it
# [22:53] <timeless> ... we're thinking that we might use the extra link in html5 spec
# [22:54] <timeless> ... not current version, but latest version
# [22:54] <timeless> ... /TR/html could become a link of specs defining sum of html
# [22:54] <timeless> darobin: as we move stuff to modules
# [22:54] <timeless> ... if things have modules, we'll cut things out of html5 core
# [22:54] <timeless> ... we haven't done it, and we might bump into issues, but we have a reasonably good idea
# [22:54] <timeless> paulc: did i miss anything?
# [22:55] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
# [22:55] <timeless> ... any things in whatwg that aren't in 5.1 that aren't in this list?
# [22:55] <timeless> MikeSmith: yes
# [22:55] <timeless> ... whatwg spec has WebWorkers, WebSockets, WebStorage
# [22:56] * Joins: marcjohlic (~AndChat531456@public.cloak)
# [22:56] <plh> I heard canvasproxy this morning
# [22:56] <timeless> ... but we've already handled that
# [22:57] <timeless> darobin: who mentioned <hgroup>?
# [22:57] <timeless> paulc: i gave up months of my life to <hgroup>
# [22:57] <timeless> ... i want those back
# [22:57] * addison your time cheerfully refunded if not completely satisfied
# [22:58] <timeless> paulc: we need to update the landscape document (from June), then have definitive list -- and provide rationale, difference, additions <- what paulc is looking for.
# [22:59] <timeless> ... i want to start by looking backwards
# [22:59] <timeless> ... then turn 180 degrees and start looking forwards
# [22:59] <timeless> ... get definitive list, publicize it, get people to understand it
# [22:59] <timeless> ... we need an incredible list
# [22:59] <timeless> ... modules we'll work on, modules we think others are working on
# [22:59] <timeless> darobin: <template> is in html5
# [23:00] <timeless> ... i think we dropped <input inputmode=>
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# [23:00] <timeless> plh: isn't there a spec in DAP?
# [23:00] <timeless> q?
# [23:00] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [23:01] <timeless> plh: Hixie has been trying to solve
# [23:01] <timeless> ... one is script-dependencies
# [23:01] <timeless> ... i know Hixie is working on it
# [23:01] <timeless> ... so that, features that might be added to whatwg spec
# [23:01] <timeless> ... it's quite complex to solve
# [23:01] <timeless> ... i don't know where he is at getting to that
# [23:01] <timeless> ... another I see in WGs is ServiceWorker impact
# [23:01] <timeless> ... on the architecture
# [23:01] <darobin> https://whatwg.github.io/loader/
# [23:01] <timeless> ... we might want to think of impact to whole spec
# [23:01] <timeless> ... if SW is the future of AppCache
# [23:02] <timeless> ... then someone needs to look at that
# [23:02] <timeless> ... another that the WebApps WG is working
# [23:02] <timeless> ... is WebComponents
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# [23:02] <timeless> ... they're impacting HTML as well
# [23:03] <rniwa> q+
# [23:03] * Zakim sees rniwa on the speaker queue
# [23:03] <timeless> ack rniwa
# [23:03] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [23:03] <timeless> rniwa: from WebApps, when we worked on XHR
# [23:03] <timeless> ... there's a refactor for Fetch
# [23:03] <timeless> ... perhaps refactor of spec to have a better model for how HTML and DOM interact
# [23:04] <timeless> ... i think Hixie last year or two years ago added Tasks and MicroTasks
# [23:04] <timeless> ... so MutationObserver could work w/ those timings
# [23:04] <timeless> ... so things could be coherent
# [23:04] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:04] <timeless> ... Model changes could be important
# [23:04] <timeless> plh: when we shipped HTML5, there are dark corners
# [23:05] <timeless> ... one is the Window object
# [23:05] <timeless> ... i'm not sure we want to take on that dragon
# [23:05] * darobin jgraham: wonderful chocolate, thanks :)
# [23:05] <timeless> ... since we're fixing HTML5 spec
# [23:05] <timeless> rubys: another category, things no one is working on but should be
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# [23:05] <timeless> paulc: dark corner
# [23:05] <timeless> ... speced to a level that can be tested
# [23:05] * darobin HTML — Where The Window is one of the Darkest Corners
# [23:05] <timeless> ... show certain amount of interop
# [23:05] <timeless> ... but multiple implementations do things that aren't in the spec/aren't tested
# [23:05] <timeless> plh: yes
# [23:06] <timeless> ... or seeing only one or two do, and two others aren't doing it
# [23:06] <timeless> ... and no convergence in sight
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# [23:06] <timeless> Travis: referring to WebIDL, or things like .name, etc.?
# [23:06] <timeless> rubys: I remember a specific one
# [23:06] <timeless> ... loading a document
# [23:06] <timeless> ... it's true every browser loads a document
# [23:06] <timeless> [ laughter ]
# [23:07] <timeless> rubys: spec says how you should do that
# [23:07] <timeless> ... but browsers don't do that
# [23:07] <timeless> ... there are observable differences
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# [23:07] <timeless> ... i see heads nodding
# [23:07] * Quits: MarkVickers_ (~MarkVickers@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:07] <timeless> paulc: Travis said don't take the bait
# [23:07] <timeless> ... simon's saying the same thing
# [23:08] <timeless> ... We have this list
# [23:08] <timeless> ... darobin made a suggestion this moring
# [23:08] <timeless> ... we shouldn't just take a butcher knife/cleaver to the spec and break it up
# [23:08] <timeless> ... but maybe disciplined
# [23:08] <timeless> darobin: i'd never use disciplined
# [23:08] <timeless> paulc: ok, ondemand
# [23:08] <timeless> ... SteveF suggested having a particular area to work on
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# [23:08] <timeless> paulc: so we should show how we'd go about doing this
# [23:08] <timeless> ... start small
# [23:08] <timeless> ... set success bar low, overachieve
# [23:09] <timeless> ... find out what works/doesn't
# [23:09] * Joins: marcjohlic (~AndChat531456@public.cloak)
# [23:09] <timeless> ... do one/two
# [23:09] * Joins: jamesn0000 (~jnurthen@public.cloak)
# [23:09] <timeless> ... ask the question, how do we do maintenance on that section
# [23:09] <timeless> ... tantek_ made a strong point
# [23:09] * Quits: sunghan (~sunghan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:09] <timeless> ... minor release of 5.0 w/ just errata
# [23:09] <timeless> ... think about that while doing new work in some of these areas
# [23:09] <timeless> ... ask some group of people, possibly editors to put together a concrete plan
# [23:09] <timeless> ... hesitant to say plan
# [23:10] <timeless> ... what are the next steps?
# [23:10] <timeless> darobin: i'd like the next steps to be get to work and write specs
# [23:10] <timeless> ... need for higher level visibility, it ought to come from triage action
# [23:10] <timeless> ... things we could work on/open sores
# [23:10] <timeless> ... rather than planning, i'd rather do work writing spec text + publishing
# [23:10] <timeless> ... i heard SteveF would like to get to work
# [23:10] <timeless> ... lacking visibility prevented that
# [23:11] * Parts: ArtB (~abarsto@public.cloak) (ArtB)
# [23:11] <timeless> paulc: the only part that concerns me is a Q that SteveF asked this morning
# [23:11] <timeless> ... darobin you said, if you were to start new work, you'd rather do it off CR branch?
# [23:11] <timeless> darobin: no, i'd rather do that for maintenance
# [23:11] <timeless> paulc: i'm asking for a plan
# [23:12] <timeless> ... your action was to triage those 288 bugs
# [23:12] * jgraham darobin: No problem, well deserved :)
# [23:12] <timeless> ... landscape document will help
# [23:12] <timeless> ... some will involve cloning
# [23:12] <timeless> ... i believe we need to give the consortium members a plan on maintenance
# [23:12] <timeless> ... and how we're doing After HTML5
# [23:12] <timeless> ... i don't believe one of the editors w/ a favorite topic here can get started w/o part of the story written
# [23:13] * Quits: jnurthen (~jnurthen@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [23:13] <timeless> darobin: i'm not sure if we'll keep master(5.1) alive at all
# [23:13] <timeless> ... we might not
# [23:13] <timeless> ... i need to think about it
# [23:13] <timeless> ... i haven't thought about it at all
# [23:14] <timeless> ... if we only do new modules in separate documents
# [23:14] <timeless> ... and only do maintenance on CR branch (which should be renamed)
# [23:14] <timeless> paulc: i want that written down
# [23:14] <timeless> darobin: i think we can do them in parallel
# [23:14] <timeless> paulc: you can do them for some people
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# [23:14] <timeless> ... but for other people
# [23:14] <timeless> ... all editors have a high pain threshold
# [23:15] <timeless> ... you want a bit of experimentation
# [23:15] <timeless> ... but we want to show progress
# [23:15] <timeless> ... bottom line is writing spec text
# [23:15] <timeless> ... if we want other people to do this, they have to understand the system
# [23:15] <timeless> SteveF: WAI-ARIA section
# [23:15] <timeless> ... Hixie has said in the past, and quite recently
# [23:15] <timeless> ... said if someone were to take that, and turn it into a module
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# [23:15] -gitbot:#html-wg- [html] darobin pushed 1 new commit to CR: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/1df5ac60e8c7e7ccfcbe1fce1b5cae074d756675
# [23:15] -gitbot:#html-wg- html/CR 1df5ac6 Robin Berjon: stray inputmode
# [23:15] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
# [23:15] <timeless> ... he'd be happy to point to it
# [23:15] <timeless> ... he did ask me
# [23:16] <timeless> ... i'm not sure if he'd be happy w/ it being in W3C
# [23:16] <timeless> paulc: SteveF, really good characteristic, let's find out
# [23:16] <timeless> SteveF: MikeSmith , you've seen the expressed sentiment
# [23:16] <timeless> MikeSmith: no, we've talked about it
# [23:16] <timeless> ... whatwg is a do-ocracy
# [23:16] <zcorpan> q+
# [23:16] * Zakim sees zcorpan on the speaker queue
# [23:16] <timeless> ... and if you volunteer it, then that's ok
# [23:17] <timeless> SteveF: and that's one of the sections where people look to W3C
# [23:17] <timeless> ack zcorpan
# [23:17] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
# [23:17] <timeless> zcorpan: what you described is something that has happened on a few occasions
# [23:17] <timeless> ... there are several parts that were in html5, and someone took over it
# [23:17] <timeless> ... and in several cases it moved to w3c
# [23:17] * Quits: bobtung (~bobbytung@public.cloak) (bobtung)
# [23:17] <timeless> ... one is DOM Parsing and Serialization, Travis is editing it
# [23:17] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:17] <timeless> ... when it became clear that W3C version is better maintained
# [23:18] <timeless> ... WHATWG redirected their url to w3c url
# [23:18] * Quits: Zefa__ (~Zefa@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:18] <timeless> ... there's precedent to being happy to move stuff to w3c
# [23:18] <timeless> SteveF: seems like something we're going to do anyway
# [23:18] <timeless> ... Hixie will point to it
# [23:18] <darobin> http://domparsing.spec.whatwg.org/ now redirects to W3C DOM-TS
# [23:18] <timeless> paulc: other examples of it
# [23:18] <timeless> ... Hixie pointed to zcorpan for the <img> element
# [23:19] <timeless> zcorpan: also, WebSocket Protocol and WebVTT
# [23:19] <timeless> ... lots of other things
# [23:19] <timeless> paulc: looking squarely in the eye of darobin here
# [23:19] <timeless> ... do you have direction
# [23:19] <timeless> darobin: i can come back in a year and a half
# [23:19] <timeless> paulc: when will you convene the editors
# [23:19] <timeless> rubys: same question to SteveF
# [23:19] <timeless> paulc: when do we see progress
# [23:19] <timeless> rubys: SteveF , do you have enough direction
# [23:20] <timeless> SteveF: yes
# [23:20] <timeless> ... some advice on splitting out
# [23:20] <timeless> rubys: ok, but you're not gated on us?
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# [23:20] <timeless> SteveF: partially, if i ensure, if i pull it out, that it won't be consumed (absorbed, taken over) by someone else
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# [23:21] <timeless> paulc: thank you to our i18n friends
# [23:21] <timeless> [ Applause ]
# [23:21] <timeless> paulc: if darobin has enough data
# [23:21] <timeless> ... we've spent 2 hours on this topic, that's enough for now
# [23:21] * Quits: rsun (~rsun@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:21] <timeless> ... we'll reconvene at 4pm w/ PF WG
# [23:21] <darobin> edoyle, Travis, hober, SteveF: I'd like to take a pic of the editors together after the meeting :)
# [23:22] <timeless> ... i still haven't received confirmation about 5pm slot
# [23:22] <timeless> [ Coffee Break until 4pm ]
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# [23:28] <rubys> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2014Oct/0068.html
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# [23:59] <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [23:59] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
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# [23:59] <timeless> topic: AAA
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# Session Close: Fri Oct 31 00:00:00 2014

The end :)